[00:00:01] Blank Check with Griffin and David Blank Check with Griffin and David Don't know what to say or to expect All you need to know is that the name of the show is Blank Check I don't want to pull up Billy Crystal and try to do some extended impressions
[00:00:37] Don King bit? He does them all Billy Crystal's greatest characters, Muhammad Ali, Don King, Sammy Davis Jr. Jasmine Jasmine? That's right Isn't Jasmine just Sammy Davis Jr.? Oh Jasmine is a separate character Jasmine is a separate character Alright, let's get off this right now
[00:00:59] Have you never seen the comic relief routine post Hurricane Katrina? Yes, no I have So you're familiar with Jasmine? You've met the Jasmine And also of course Billy Crystal's most terrifying character on Candy Valley Tintin Sure From the Oscars when he played Tintin
[00:01:17] Have you seen this? I'm not seeing this Talking on mic before we introduce you, it's what I like Perfect and we're going to pull up the image from you The last time Billy Crystal ever hosted the Oscars after Eddie Murphy quit
[00:01:27] So you just want to know was he in blackface? When he hosted the Oscars? Yes In that intro he also did Sammy Davis Jr. Nice But somehow it was the second most upsetting character Jesus, God, dancing Christ Now this is a great example of
[00:01:41] He starts off the montage And no one was asking for this Producers weren't like you're going to do Tintin right Because the fans they want you to do Tintin It made 80 domestic and got zero Oscar nominations Maybe he got score I think he got score
[00:01:53] Right, but this is what's incredible No it didn't actually War Horse got scored didn't it Maybe I feel like it was a double Williams Double Williams? I think it might have been a double Willy It might have been big Willy style
[00:02:03] This was a year where Billy jumped in the last second to save the Oscars Who's going to host Billy's going to save the Oscars He does his classic thank you Edit himself into the movies montage At the beginning of that montage What does he do?
[00:02:17] Edit himself in as Sammy Davis Jr. Of course someone who was very important to the film going year 2011 Talking of Bieber right It was like a Bieber sketch Yeah the two biggest movie stars of 2011 Were Justin Bieber and Sammy Davis Jr.
[00:02:30] And you watch it and you go cool So in the first what, 85 seconds of the ceremony He's already gone to the old chestnuts This is the most politically uncomfortable thing That has happened in Oscar San Antonio It was rough, it was rough In years and years and years
[00:02:44] How could this get worse And then he upped the ante with Tintin Which has no cultural inappropriateness But it's just a cursed image It's a bit of a curse It's a curse image Really unsettling Yeah turn it back around one more time
[00:02:56] Let's just see you one more time Let's get him back I mean what is going on there He looks like Sammy Sosa You know what you're incredibly right He looks like Bleached Sammy Sosa There's something off about his skin tone in it
[00:03:11] Is it because the hair is sort of clashing And makes everything look stranger He's got this red hair It's also weird because at that time Tintin doesn't really have red hair Tintin has like blonde hair doesn't he I guess it's like barburn
[00:03:25] Yeah that's a darker, that's a richer sort of But I feel like at that time Everyone was complaining about like The mocap thing on Kenny Valley Makes me so uncomfortable And I'm like if you think Tintin looks creepy Look at fucking Billy Crystal as Tintin Tintin looks handsome
[00:03:42] Tintin's a nice boy and he looks handsome Do you remember that Did he edit himself into the Tree of Life Which was an Oscar nominee It was a best picture nominee I don't think he did but now what I I would love to see him do that
[00:03:56] I wish he had put his face on the baby's foot I wish that's the famous The Tree of Life No no I'm saying when they hold the baby's foot I wish he'd like have just been Brad Pitt Going like what is, when does a soul start
[00:04:09] And then it cuts to Billy Crystal's face On a foot going like hey don't put a sock on me Whatever, whatever he would have done Oh Billy It was incredible how for like ten years there Every year they'd be like Why don't they just bring Billy back
[00:04:24] We all know Billy was the best And they brought him back And guys like you and I would rewatch Let us never speak of this again We would rewatch it And be like, eh Billy's okay We tell people like you don't want Billy back
[00:04:34] They would be like no we want Billy back You know Steve Martin like if you rewatch Steve Martin's hosting gigs They're great, really funny Yeah I think both of Ellen's were good I think both of John Stewart's were good Chris Rock was good
[00:04:46] Like there have been good hosts And people would always be like Ah Billy Crystal, where's he been I think people liked the security Of knowing there's a regular host There's someone who's gonna host Four out of five years He left out Ricky He didn't host the Oscar
[00:05:00] He didn't host the Oscar What did he do? No he hosted the Globes because Oh my god He was too hot for the Oscars Man he was too hot for the Oscar He didn't watch the Oscar He cared about the Oscar I do watch the Oscars
[00:05:09] You know that But you don't care about it like we do An atheist I mean I've heard I've heard that he's very edgy Ben cut that Very edgy man I don't want to get sued You're right He is very edgy And he doesn't care
[00:05:23] In the special thanks of the Golden Globes He thanks not God In the credits Take that not God That's my favorite part of the Golden Globes Is the special thanks Special thanks for making your made Oh my god Alright Blank check Set us up
[00:05:39] We're talking about a movie here That was sort of seen It was one of those films that like a year out It was the number one Oscar favorite Absolutely That's true Which I think by and large That almost always dooms a movie
[00:05:49] I think there are very few cases Especially I'd say post Post-Shepard syndrome 2000 Right Unbroken Unbroken Dream Girls Dream Girls for sure I mean you go like Star is Born is kind of the most successful example of that And it still didn't win any major awards Cold Mountain
[00:06:06] Very often they get knocked out of Best Picture entirely People are sort of like The hype was so huge Too high This movie is just like hey And you're like Star is Born beat the curse By at least getting all the nominations
[00:06:17] But Star is Born lost her green book Which I feel like That's the greatest Some losses You know what I mean Right But like it's like You know that's like It's like the heat losing to the Mavericks in 2011 Where you're like They shouldn't have
[00:06:30] You know what I mean Like on paper I know exactly I was about to say that Exactly It's like the 2016 presidential election Exactly That's literally I mean not literally You know what Green Book is better than Donald Trump's presidency I'll give it that Right Yeah I'd agree
[00:06:48] I'd agree Green Book successfully lands a couple of jokes I like doing this thing Or compliment Green Book By saying it's better than like Very bad things Yes Right Let's do a power-ranking Green Book Right Number one In terms of the best bad things
[00:07:05] Sure so like number two is like E. Coli or whatever Right I was gonna say Sure Noble Right It's a little better No you're right I mean because it is the thing where you're like Hillary Clinton like 2008 you don't get the nomination But like
[00:07:20] You know losing to Barack Obama Has more dignity Right They're getting the nomination On 16 but losing to Trump No one's gonna hold it against you If you lose to the first black president Right He's well liked Right He's still pretty popular But people will hold against you
[00:07:35] If you lose to the first Trump president Don't say first I'm gonna say it That's right I'm calling my shot More? Yeah Oh my god Yeah I mean you know first of her name Ivanka Trump Yeah Oh my god Yeah Yeah she is the mother of dragons
[00:07:51] She's the mother of dragons Daenerys is very Trumpy Yes You don't watch the video I've never watched it I forgot I forgot She is right Yeah She is It's the only thing I'm less skilled to pretend I know about than basketball Right I know the cultural character names
[00:08:05] You pick things up through the years I'm sure Uh, Jon Snow Jon Snow Uh, Jeannie Lannister That's another one Lannister always repays his debts Is that a thing they do? You know a ton This is amazing That's like 90% right there Dragons Yeah, they're there Dragons are in there
[00:08:21] Dinklage is also a Lannister Terian Okay There's all the cold boys coming I know they're cold boys Lannisters, Starks Who are the other big fans I mean you got the big two The Targaryens Those are the big two Targaryens Yeah Momoa Momoa is called Drogo
[00:08:39] Yeah, I know people have been on it Raven's got three eyes Or Crow There's a three-eyed Raven I got a Raven There's just the one There's just the one Sort of like that's sort of like the chief psychic Yeah Everyone's unsubscribing This is Blank Shrek with Griffin
[00:08:53] It's a podcast A show in which we describe the basic premise Of Game of Thrones A thing that no one's heard about Eight seasons in I will say this I used to feel like I was part of 12% Of the global population that didn't watch the show Sure
[00:09:06] And now it's like down to two Yeah, I feel like in the like 18 months Or whatever it was in between these seasons Everyone else who hadn't watched it caught up This happened with Breaking Bad too Yes They were like, I know the last season's coming
[00:09:17] So I'm finally gonna like If I haven't yet You know, I'll get through it all And I'll say like with Breaking Bad I wasn't caught up in real time You watched Because the final half season Wasn't on Netflix by the time Yeah, that's how they did
[00:09:28] But I had watched half of the show By the time it finale And I understood at least the basic thing Game of Thrones I just feel like I'm never gonna watch It's fine Yeah, and it's not like an act of resistance I'm not like taking a stand
[00:09:42] I know, I get you I feel like though there might just come a time Once it's all there That you'll throw it on And you'll be like, oh okay You know, and you'll sort of You know how many canonical TV shows I have not watched
[00:09:55] That are ahead of it in the docket Right I don't really like high fantasy shit that much High fantasy is my favorite It's not really high fantasy I don't know how you describe it I don't know It's just sort of
[00:10:06] I feel like it's always drawn on HBO fantasy Sure It's a high fantasy when I watch it Okay, well of course Yes, of course it is Boop, boop, boop Hey Ben What's up? Talking that way I thought you were serious now I am Ben has rebranded recently
[00:10:23] He's decided he's very serious now And his coworkers asked him When the bit had started And he said I'm drinking espresso So is that an answer? I'm very serious He's very serious now He doesn't do bits anymore Alright, well I'm serious Right, right, right
[00:10:37] Your bits have to be serious Okay, blank check Blank check with Griffin and David It's a podcast about filmography Directors are a massive success Around their career And are given a series of blank checks To make whatever crazy passion projects they want Sometimes those projects
[00:10:48] Float like a butterfly And sometimes they sing like a bee Very good That was better than the clock That was good That was fine That was good And of course there's a mini series On the films with Michael Mann Yeah It's called Cast of the Pot Heakens
[00:11:00] It's the only one we could do It's literally The only one were titles Yeah Yeah, you're right He's a one word title guy Todd lateral was the second best option That's how dire things were Yeah, I can't think of anything else
[00:11:16] It's the only one that has a flow to it Because even the other ones that are longer Public enemies We're not gonna do like Public castemies Like that sucks That's bullshit That's sub-tile to this mini series Of course is Michael Mann's explaining Yes And today we're talking about
[00:11:32] What seemed like his big Oscar play Absolutely Coming off the insider His first time when he had Like a real oscarimovie Big, big, big Credit credit Right And then He's working with the biggest star That's true Of the moment Indisputably I think Who is We'll talk about this
[00:11:49] In a pocket where he Clearly is trying to win an Oscar 100% Where he steps away from Blockbusters It's time for me to be serious Right And I think he hoped Like Ben He was in his Ben phase Right Yes Wild Wild West had kind of
[00:12:02] Knocked him off the Blockbuster path He was like Alright, enough Yeah And it's what It's bag of ants in this And then he goes back to Then he starts taking the huge paycheck Because it's meant in black to Bad boys too Bad boys too Eye robot Hitch
[00:12:18] You know Pursuit of happiness This is an extra prestigious movie But pursuit of happiness makes $165 million Big does it Does it really? It does insanely well He did the Rubik's Cube so fast And that guy's limo Have you seen the pursuit of happiness Or my reference?
[00:12:31] There was a whole There's a whole block of Will Smith Movies that I just refused to watch I mean, I don't know why anyone Would ever really be fired up To watch the pursuit of happiness It's not even bad I kind of like that movie
[00:12:42] He's good in it Well, you know I had this Whole fucking thing Oh boy I feel like I've talked about this On the show before But I used to have Of Okay, I'm like a crazy person Right, this is well established On the show at this point
[00:12:54] Fully established I still have an issue, sir Right, when I was like 16 I very much had a fantasy Of being like a very young single father Okay Okay I had this You said of a Gilmore girl It's like a reverse Gilmore girl Gilmore boys
[00:13:08] I really, I want to be forced To have a kid when you're challenged The classic movie premise of like He's, you know, he's He's a single guy Who does his thing You know, he's got a baby It was my heroic fantasy Like I was like
[00:13:21] The only heroic thing I could do You know, I'm never going to know How to like act immediately In an emergency You know, I'm never going to have Like the ability to save someone I could if accidentally A baby was dropped off at my feet
[00:13:36] Right, you'll figure it out Sure Right And you get your friends on board And it would be charming Right, I think I just wanted To be the plot of like A DCWD dramedy You're describing big daddy I think more of the dramedy I mean the Gilmore girls thing
[00:13:49] You were saying, you know Right But so I was all about Pursuit of happiness Sure That was a mood board movie for me Alright Because I'm a broken person But that was the thing Like at that point in time It was like, you know
[00:14:05] He's back to one movie a year All his movies are hits Pursuit of happiness is a little lower budget This is him making another Oscar movie But then that overperformed too And it was that corridor For like ten years where he never did Under a hundred million
[00:14:18] Except for Ollie That was the one And Baggravance Right, but I'm saying two thousand Baggravance Ollie 2001 Oh, but you're saying post Ollie Right Right And then he doesn't Seven pounds is the next one To not make a hundred Do not touch the jellyfish And that's eight or nine
[00:14:36] Seven pounds is 2008 Okay Yeah, so he has I mean he's a pretty insane run there Yeah, he does And the run before that is also pretty insane Yes And this feels like the last time He so fully handed himself Over to a director
[00:14:49] Gave himself over to a director 100% That's a big thing with this movie Yeah, but he unfortunately entered That sort of zone where he's kind of the director Yes Right Right Where he's picking guys who he can probably Just boss around
[00:15:01] He works with other people and he works with worse people But he's always the ultimate say I think so Yeah Except Suicide Squad of course Well, yes I have the most twisted movie of them all His only hit in practically a decade It's so weird It's so weird
[00:15:14] Weird, weird It's weird to think of that too As a Will Smith movie Even though he is very much like the lead Yeah Do you agree with me? That he's the lead Yes But it's weird to think of it as a Will Smith movie
[00:15:26] He didn't even get a tattoo He didn't even get the tattoo You know about this? I heard about this He didn't even He didn't write squad on his SKWA But also apparently intercell was not playing I already forgot It's dead chat Dead chat
[00:15:40] No, apparently he's playing a different character So really They're not gonna try James Brody With that Right Exactly They're not gonna don't cheat a lot Dead chat Yeah So maybe dead chat will return someday I mean clearly We love him We love him He's a great shot
[00:15:57] He's got a kid He's a great shot What an arc that guy had I like his tools Okay You mean his guns? No, but he's got like Rick Shades Yeah, he's got like a bunch of gun business He's got cool gear Like cool cases
[00:16:11] What would you guys do if they announced the title for the Suicide Squad sequel And it was a Suicide Squad revenge of Slipknot Yeah, Slipknot's revenge Yeah I'd be all about it Like it turned out that that was Guns Big Take Right It was like
[00:16:26] Slipknot got blown up one minute in We're gonna dig into this We all know that Slipknot died But what my pit presupposes is What if he didn't I don't think we know that And they just hand him the bag of money Alright, introduce our guest
[00:16:39] We have an amazing guest today From the New York Times Jamal Buoy is here Hello Thank you so much for being here It's my pleasure You've been on the wish list for a long time I'm a long-time listener That's crazy Now you said
[00:16:56] You have never listened to a podcast that you were on That's absolutely true So this is gonna be an immediate delete for you from the piece It'll show up in my feed Yeah And I'll press it I use a bad pod catcher
[00:17:08] So I'll have to press multiple buttons Presses But it'll hit billion eventually Wow I'm a swiper Pocket cast You just swipe Yeah, more ways than one Okay Did you swipe one of my jokes on Twitter recently? Swipe like, you know, like Oh, you mean stole
[00:17:25] Yeah, that's what I'm saying You joke thief Well, I'm always stealing your Carlos and Cio It's because they just get like baked into my brain by this podcast It was either Deadpool knowing that he's in a movie Or the other one It was not Logan's secretly a western
[00:17:40] No, I mean it is Those ones I feel like I've shared custody with you There was a joke you made I'll find it I'm gonna find it And then I quoted back You said you have stolen my joke And I felt terrible
[00:17:51] I was like I wasn't really trying to steal your joke The time I'd made the joke on Twitter Please find it, we'll litigate this in a second Jamel Tell me about your relationship With Michael Mann So My relationship with Michael Mann
[00:18:05] Is that I did not have a relationship with Michael Mann Up until the beginning of last year I was doing a lot of travel And I was looking for something to watch on Hulu And Thief was on Hulu I was like you know
[00:18:18] I know this is a first Michael Mann's first movie I liked James Cahn Never seen this before So I put it on And I was like this shit is dope as hell This is a great fucking movie That was pretty much our assessment I'm pretty sure that episode
[00:18:31] Is just us yelling like Braski We talk about pinching each other Oh god Pinch me I mean like you had seen man movies obviously They've been around But like you had never really thought about like Right, right Michael Mann is man I think maybe I had seen Heat
[00:18:48] Sure Which is the one everyone's seen And I had seen Black Hat Because when that came out I remember some friends saying Hey this is actually pretty decent Yeah But I never connected it to Michael Mann I've never thought in a systematic way About Michael Mann
[00:19:00] There were some isolated viewing experiences for you Okay So I watched Thief Really into it And again I'm traveling a lot And so I think Give myself a thing to do I said I will just watch as many of these as I can Cool
[00:19:13] And so over the course of that month I was traveling then afterwards I kind of just made my way through every Michael Mann film And kind of it's in chronological order So you had an experience for some part Of what we're doing Yeah Right now
[00:19:26] You were viewing them all In like the build of the career Now you hadn't seen Ollie when it came out Not at all I am I would have been like 13 When that movie came out Sure Yeah I think I was the 15 I think Yeah
[00:19:38] I was like 12 or something Yeah But it was your brother's favorite movie It was my brother's favorite movie My brother was 9 at the time 9 at the time And he liked boxing He liked sports I'll get into this more in depth But I think I've said this before
[00:19:49] In the podcast His birthday I believe it was his 10th birthday Was inviting a bunch of other 10-year-olds over And they watched a VHS of Ollie That's very strange It's very strange Especially since the original kind I think is like close to 3 hours long I'm checking in
[00:20:06] My brother leaning forward Like so fully engrossed In like all the like Brotherhood of Islam scenes And these other kids just like It's completely asleep Cause it opens with a fight It closes with a fight But in the middle there Like they're not exactly going to be like
[00:20:22] Oh interesting I didn't know a lot about his third wife That's what I'm wondering Was it a sleepover birthday party In which case maybe the kids Tapped out by just going to The only sleepover where kids Tried to not stay up
[00:20:34] But yes it was a movie that played a lot In my household weirdly Okay so you didn't see it when it came out Wasn't your kind of thing Do you have any sort of relationship With Ollie or Will Smith So Les Ollie
[00:20:49] I just wasn't a big sports person growing up Dude, I hear ya I mean my whole family was Like I'm the odd one out there Everyone else very important I hear you Where are you from? I don't know where you're from Virginia Beach, Virginia Okay
[00:21:04] Much like I'm Mr. Fansky Shout out to Mr. Gwaiensky But Will Smith I feel like I am of the Exact age Where Will Smith is sort of a major Formative part of my entire childhood He was the guy He was the movie star
[00:21:19] He was sort of the man It was a little kid Fresh Prince of Bel Air Was sort of like at a tight I'm pretty sure every single I mean most households But certainly every black household Watched the Fresh Prince of Bel Air
[00:21:30] And it was just like a thing that we Watched as a family When Men in Black came out That was sort of just like Everywhere we're all going to go see the movie And that decade Leading up to Ollie Is kind of I'm a kid Will Smith is
[00:21:46] I'm the present In my pop cultural life Because it's not just Men in Black And Independence Day Even Wild World West But also his music career So ongoing So Big Willie Style Comes out in like 95, 96 97 The Millennium of course Began in 1999 as we all know
[00:22:07] So listen to a lot of Will Smith Listen to a lot of Big Willie Style Listen to a lot of Men in Black Soundtrack And also there was the Men in Black cartoon Which aired in the late 90s as well That's right I also watched that
[00:22:21] It was kind of weird I remember that being pretty good It was pretty like Straight faced I remember being a little Kind of lore heavy Right That approach Right and pretty serious Yeah So Yeah Will Smith just sort of And even now I say this on Twitter
[00:22:39] So often like what I want Out of Will Smith Is for him to sort of like Try to recapture some of that magic And kind of give up the whole I Need an Oscar In terms of being I'm a gigantic charismatic movie star
[00:22:51] Let me do more of that Well it felt like Like 2019 was strategically Supposed to be the year of him Recapturing that Right Like I think the play was like Three big movies Right Does he have three? Three movies this year He's got Aladdin That's right Yeah, the genie
[00:23:08] He is the genie Right He's got You know A German eye man Right His Ang Lee High frame rate action movie Who knows And then he's got his coutagra That's right The spies They're in disguise Spies in disguise That's right You know about spies in disguise
[00:23:25] Okay this is how we're going to end the episode This is how we're going to end the episode That's a good call You'll watch the trailer for Spies in Disguise We will not touch upon this again Until the end of the episode
[00:23:33] I wish Alistair could see my face For them I was like, Spies in disguise They're just going to hear your reaction And they'll be fine All you need to know is that the spies are in disguise That's queued up Ready for whenever we move
[00:23:44] I remember hearing this rumor That his salary for Aladdin Was the biggest Any actor had ever been paid What? He was working on a new album That was going to tie into it And was going to do a song for the end credits Shout out to Demi
[00:24:03] I can't think of that without thinking of Demi I heard that scoop and I emailed Demi And he was like, are you fucking kidding me? I was like, this is what I've heard And then it seemingly hasn't happened He's become very active on social media
[00:24:16] Yes, he has a great Instagram account I think he won the Webby Award Yeah, I think he Because he must have a whole team I know comedians who Great for Will Smith now And it's a weird room of people To his credit He assembled a very odd room
[00:24:31] Of very different types of comedians and sensibilities He had the Instagram about Ali He had a little video about it Where he was like, Michael, man I love the man, he's crazy I had to give up my whole salary For this movie Right?
[00:24:45] I had to train for a year I spent a year just researching It's kind of a big deal Because it sort of falls into that Tom Cruise, Eyes Wide Shut thing Of like, I'm gonna hand myself over to this guy And seed all control
[00:25:01] At the peak of my start Sure, right, yes, absolutely And he can just break me and remold me However he wants And he did get a full $20 million For this movie But it also was very much A, like, you don't get to be Will Smith for a year
[00:25:16] Like, I'm telling you what you have to study You know, the big thing Michael Mann did On this movie was he was like In the boxing scenes We're not gonna fake any punches And the only direction he gave The guys that Will Smith was boxing
[00:25:29] Gets is you cannot knock him out And he's mostly boxing against Like real boxers Yeah, they're like more boxers than actors Yes, right But this feels like the year Where he's trying to recapture that thing It was one of the reasons I was kind of excited
[00:25:44] When he signed on to Suicide Squad Because I was like I'm gonna see him do a big fun thing And then that movie ended up being not fun But it is that thing I feel like we've talked about this With DeCaprio as well But DeCaprio's a different example
[00:25:58] Because he was never, like A blockbuster guy outside of The one anomaly of Titanic Yeah, he kind of became a blockbuster guy later Weirdly, yeah Right, his movies perform well But where like DeCaprio is so fucking Innately charismatic That it's a bummer
[00:26:14] To watch him for years and years And he's in these Oscar movies Where he tries to sell everyone That he's a serious grown up Sure Because no one else can do Catch Me Like If you can Yeah Or Titanic Or any of those other performances
[00:26:25] And it's like the same thing with Will Smith Where it's just like There are things that no one else Can do That this guy can pull off And it's a little bit of a bummer When he backs away from it And even like Jim and I man
[00:26:37] I am optimistic about that movie Sure In all of its weirdness But it also feels like That's a movie that a thousand guys could do I hope he does it well The only pitch on having him And Jim and I man Is the Fresh Prince thing
[00:26:51] Is the kind of like Remember young girls Exactly We've recreated him in a lab Like it's sort of an odd Yeah But you can do a lot of things And the other problem is Right, it needs to be someone Who has that kind of A decades long career
[00:27:03] Where we've grown up with them I mean Jim and I man Honestly sounds like more of a Tom Cruise Kind of vehicle Totally It would be such a good Tom Cruise vehicle And I also feel like I love Tom Cruise to work with Me too
[00:27:15] I think it is a problem And I kind of This was my fear when they cast Will Smith He has aged so fucking well That even when in the trailer You see 90s Will Smith And you're like there is a difference there There's a difference
[00:27:28] It's not that radical I watched the trailer last night And I was when When young, when D.H. Will Smith shows up My brain had to be like That is D.H. Will Smith Right He's a little skinnier In the face basically Right
[00:27:41] I mean I think they've done What they are trying to do very well Right But unlike Tom Cruise who has aged well But looks his age Sure Will Smith aside from letting himself Get some gray in there Really does look immaculate He looks like 38
[00:27:55] And that's the other thing is Watching this Watching Ali I'm like he looks so fucking young In this He does Like he looks like he's like 19 Like he looks like the D.H. Gemini Man character In this And the hair is kind of similar
[00:28:09] But he's got the same shape to his face And you're like At this point he's what 31? That sounds about right And he's playing him at about the age Like he is Yeah early 30s But he just looks like he barely aged In between Fresh Prince and this
[00:28:24] Yeah he would be like 32 Right Yeah because he's like 51 or 52 now Right And he's baby-faced in this So he just looks so I mean he The other thing looks so fucking hot He has the physique He has the correct physique But now actors are so like swollen
[00:28:40] And like you know even Will Smith In like Suicide Squad I feel like he's gigantic Too big And so when you're looking at things You're like oh he's supposed to be Like an athlete He looks so skinny compared to like The superheroes of today That are so buff
[00:28:51] It was always kind of Ali like that's what he looked like Right He was not like some like Gigantic muscled man No he looked like an action star But he always There was something cool to the fact That he was kind of lean Yeah
[00:29:02] Because so many action stars Are in reality very short Right And there's a lot of weird Boxes and smokes and mirrors To make Stallone look bigger And things like that And then he goes so crazy on the muscles That Will Smith was a guy where you're like
[00:29:14] Oh this dude's like actually Like six foot one, six foot two Yeah he's like a fit basketball player He's got like really practical muscles Right You know But when you like put him in street clothes You don't have the Schwarzenegger problem Where you're like no one's commenting on
[00:29:28] How insane this guy looks So the sheriff in this small Mountain town is apparently Six foot four That's the weirdest one 220 pounds The fact that was his comeback movie Like I'm done serving office Now I'm gonna make a small town sheriff movie I actually really enjoy that movie
[00:29:45] I like it a lot It's the good the bad and the weird guy Right Yeah Isn't it a remake too It's like a remake of a Korean film or something Yes the director is Korean The director is Korean Maybe it's just the director Yeah I know it
[00:29:58] Yeah right I always heard that movie was fun In a weird way When I was being my wife watching it I said to her It reminds me a lot of like Unforgiven Oh that's cool In the sense that Schwarzenegger is playing kind of like
[00:30:10] An older version of his like murder rampage characters Yeah Yeah that's cool Yeah right You know what he's really really good in The um the Aftermath is what it's called No escape plan Really I've never seen that Schwarzenegger's really good
[00:30:25] He did so many movies that no one saw After leaving the governor Crazy it's so weird After serving as governor of the largest economy in the United States He has become like a sort of like A centrist Republican statesman Yeah And then makes shitty action movies
[00:30:42] It's kind of crazy how hard he dropped the ball Because you're like He's been in office for eight years He can come back big And then he was like I'm just gonna do a couple lines They get released in January and September Does STX or Summit like
[00:30:56] Have like a check for me maybe You feel like he could have made Like his first one back Be a big statement It was the last I think he just wanted to do something I think he just wanted to work again But Will Smith in this moment
[00:31:11] Right he's coming off that thing And what you were saying was Which I agree with It was this unique thing where I don't think anyone has hit this since him Eddie Murphy certainly had this going on His peak and it feels like the baton
[00:31:22] Was kind of passed from Eddie To Will Of like King of all media Yes Like he's got albums His TV show is still running in repeat We watch it all the time Of course Prince never went out of rotation Right it was canonical
[00:31:37] Even though like is the Fresh Prince Miller good Like I don't think it's that good But it's so fucking effective It's one of the most watchable sitcoms ever I was obsessed with it when I was a kid
[00:31:47] And then later I would come to it and I'd be like He's just a compelling screen for you He's one of the most charismatic performers To ever live He truly is Uncle Phil That's the other thing You got all these ringers in the cast
[00:31:59] Like Alfonso and Barra rules Sure James Avery rules Definitely The guy who plays the butler rules He was in What's it called? What's his name? The boy who harnessed the wind What is his name? Oh is that that The Chiwetah Jaffa movie about
[00:32:16] Like the inspirational true story movie about the kid The one that he directed? The one that he directed He's also in it He's also really good in it Yeah He's a good actor The boy who in Malawi Built a windmill to like Re-irrigate his town Cool
[00:32:32] During a drought And you know the chieftain of the town Is played by What's his name? Joseph Marcel Yeah And Jeff Yes, Jeffrey And like for like you know A few acts I was kind of like Who is this guy? This guy's got a lot of presence
[00:32:47] Who is he again? And then you realize who he is He's great That rules Yeah It's a good movie He harnesses the wind You spend like two hours being like You know, he harnesses the wind And then he's like There you go
[00:32:59] Yeah, I'm only gonna harness this wind Stand Yes, but it also It was the thing that I think In a pre-social media era But a point where Pop culture was starting to become like Massive and promotional opportunities Were so broad Will Smith was one of those guys
[00:33:18] Who would like do everything And whenever he did anything He committed the same amount of energy to it So it's like if the guy presented award At the MTV Movie Awards It felt like a fucking moment Like, you know, anytime he appeared on anything
[00:33:31] He did like T.R.R.L. Or did a morning show Or did late night He was also the king of kids Like all kids worshiped him But also he was in Bad Boys or whatever Like everyone liked Will Smith Everyone loved him Yeah
[00:33:42] So then he's gonna play Muhammad Ali Right So he does this miracle run That sort of ends with Wild Wild West Where he kind of like reassesses What's going on Right Cause Wild Wild West is actually Like not a bomb, right? Well it's kind of a bomb
[00:33:55] I mean it costs so much Yeah it was very expensive It was a bomb It was actually, yeah 113 domestic It made money In terms of But it like costs like twice as much as it did It grossed money Sure, really grossed money It lost money Right Yes
[00:34:09] And then he does Bag-R-Vance Which is a disaster I've never seen that movie I've never I literally only know it for its reputation It's like the magical Right, Negro That's when Spike Lee Like started saying that publicly I feel like I don't know about this
[00:34:24] Well it's about Matt Damon's like a Golfer who wants to golf good He's like an alcoholic broken white man Okay he's I didn't realize it was that bad I think he's an alcoholic I just knew he wanted to golf good Right and like And he sees like
[00:34:36] I think Charlie's there on his like His ignored wife Sure But he's like You know your classic like broken man Anti-hero Right Who can't quit the bottle I'm pretty sure he's an alcoholic No you're probably right I don't know There must be something going on with him
[00:34:49] And then Will Smith appears Out of nowhere as a magical caddy Oh my God He's like a magical But he's like a phantom Right And he fixes him and then disappears Yeah I think he like disappears into you know Yeah Okay Yep
[00:35:03] And it was directed by Robert Redford It was directed by Robert Redford Was it really Yes Oh yeah That was a big thing So Hollywood hasn't like Hasn't kept that like Problematic sort of like You know what he's talking about Green Book won Best Picture We solved racism
[00:35:15] Oh okay It looks like he wasn't a phantom How incredible would that have been If at the end of Green Book Yeah Docs really stepped out to the snow And then he slowly Looks behind him There's no one there the whole time Then where'd he go?
[00:35:29] What the fuck? What if at the end of Green Book There was a montage You told me I drove all that way For a ghost who could teleport What if at the end of Green Book There was a montage Where Vigo replayed the trip in his head
[00:35:41] And it turned out that it was like A player piano Right There was He was throwing chicken wings In the back And they were just landing on the seat It's just a pile of Yeah The Legend of Bagger Man So it was directed by Robert Redford
[00:35:55] Robert Redford was picking Damon As he was like Much like in the 90s Where he kept working with Pitt Yeah Like he's like you're my guy Like you're the next Redford And Will Smith It was like you're the next Like Poitier I feel like that was the pitch
[00:36:09] God knows probably God knows how Robert Redford Thought about the Legend of Bagger Man Right And that was in that weird period Where like Charly's did Tons of failed Pre-season projects She played a lot of wives And was bad in all of them
[00:36:22] And it was like why do people keep hiring her She's not good in these movies And then she immediately became great Like it was like once she was in good movies Yeah She rules And they gave her real characters to play Rather than long suffering wives
[00:36:34] But that like men of honor She's like really bad in No you're right Bagger Van she's I think bad in I think that's a reputation None of us will ever watch this movie But that seemed like I'm gonna watch it Well just to prove us wrong Exactly
[00:36:47] That felt like that was like The straight down the middle Like this is Smith He's gunning for best supporting actor Like Oscar play And then everyone hated He was like cool I'm gonna make a movie with like integrity Right And he had been attached to do Ali
[00:36:59] For years and years and years Different people came in and out Different people wrote scripts He was always sort of loosely Like I would like to do an Ali movie And I feel like Ali had publicly said Like I approve of this casting Which was a big thing
[00:37:13] Right But I remember even like The little bubbles And like the fucking Nickelodeon magazine Being like up next An Ali movie Like they would say like When they were doing their profiles Like in kids magazines They'd always be like And he's trying to make a movie
[00:37:26] About the world's greatest boxer Here are some of the versions Of this movie that almost happened There was a script called Power and Grace Which is a very lame title Yup That was focused on Ali From age 12 to 40 Probably more of a classic biopic
[00:37:41] A lot about his dad Who was in this movie But is not a character Ron Howard was going to direct it Right I can know what that movie is Exactly You seem like Cinderella Man Or whatever Like yes, I mean it would have been a very straightforward
[00:37:57] I don't know The friends we made along the way But this is even like ransom era Sure Ron Howard, you know We're like a few years from like Apollo 13 or whatever Right He's sort of like Oh, it's like he could do you a stately biopic
[00:38:10] And this is ironically the year that He wins Best Picture and Best Director This same year For making a stately biopic Right About phantoms About Mind phantoms Man who weren't there Alright And then during Wild Wild West And this is not Will Smith says to Barry Sonnenfeld Like
[00:38:29] Make Ali You should do it Here's the script You're clearly the guy to make Ali Barry Sonnenfeld Who I like Barry Sonnenfeld I do too I enjoyed Men in Black I enjoyed the Addams Family I think we love all of his movies Up to Wild Wild West Right
[00:38:43] And then he never recovers No He doesn't make like another good movie We like always consider covering him on the podcast Because we like those first four Right So much Addams Family, Addams Family Values Get Shorty, Men in Black Like that's great Right That's a great first four
[00:38:57] Right And then the rest of them are Wild Wild West Big Trouble Men in Black 2 RV Men in Black 3 Nine lives The one where Kevin Spacey is a cat Yeah Excuse me Excuse me on that last one Uh-huh Well Kevin Spacey I'll know him He's a bad dad
[00:39:13] He loves his career and he doesn't spend enough time with his kids Which of course is All new plus This has become a cat To spend time with his kids And then learns to value being a father He's cursed into cathood Is that correct?
[00:39:24] He is cursed by Christopher Walken I believe his kids demand that they adopt a cat And he goes and Christopher Walken Essentially playing the same role he played in Click Is like I got a very special cat for you Okay Right And he's the cat
[00:39:36] This cat's got real soul It's your soul And then he turns Kevin Spacey into the cat And I think the kids think the dad's on a work trip Okay I tried watching this once Jennifer Garner I believe plays Kevin Spacey's wife This is a good reminder
[00:39:49] However much I think I watch a lot of movies There's just a whole world of movies That I will never see Or hear of Um, yes In Australia We all, as we all know Nine lives was titled Mr. Fuzzy Pants Better title Better title Anyway
[00:40:05] This was a Europa-Corp movie I think you're right When like, Luc Besson raised a ton of money And was like, we're a studio now We're gonna finance our own movies And we're not just gonna make Besson films We're gonna make family films And he made this disastrous movie
[00:40:16] That costs like 60 million dollars Yeah Because everyone figured Kevin Spacey Perfect lead for a family film It's crazy Right It's a crazy thing to do But the whole movie is like CGI cat With internal Kevin Spacey monologue A-Log Garfield Yeah They really expect me to eat that
[00:40:32] That kind of stuff Right Anyway, he could have made The cat just constantly monologues He didn't get to make You and I both know there are no crimes in art Now Let me be catty Columbia still And he's giving me a thumbs up Columbia still has the movie
[00:40:51] This is a Columbia movie Right And, and, and And Wild West Flops Columbia sort of was becoming One of Will Smith's home studios It is his home studio Right Yeah, yeah Until recently Yes Wild West Flops Sonnenfeld is fired Or whatever Yeah Is gently nudged aside Michael Mann
[00:41:10] He's just made The Insider So now With Eric Roth He seems like an Oscar guy Yeah, Eric Roth who wrote The Insider with him They're gonna redo the script Michael Mann declines He was gonna make The Aviator Turns it down to make this movie Yeah
[00:41:23] He was gonna make Shooter Mm-hmm I don't know if he was really gonna Make Shooter It says here that he was planning To make Shooter I think he was going to adapt the book I don't think it would have resembled The Shooter movie we got in any way
[00:41:32] The Shooter movie is pretty bad And there's another one They said he turned it Into a movie about the savages Right Which Oliver Stone eventually made Right Which I've never seen But that's this other thing in the 90s Mann keeps on developing biopics That don't go anywhere
[00:41:45] He becomes one of these guys Who just does years and years of research He wants to make a James Dean movie For a long time Sure Sure Howard Hughes' thing Was always floating around Right Like And he hasn't made a biopic Up until this point Right
[00:41:59] But he's one of these guys Where if like He finds a person called Well The Insider is kind of a biopic A little bit A true story movie I'd say it's a little more Of a true story movie But yeah It's kind of a biopic Right
[00:42:10] And a manager's kind of a biopic No I don't know Whatever So he totally rewrites the script As far as I know I think his and Roth Him and Roth wrote the script They're giving a $105 million budget Big movie They shot it all New York, Chicago
[00:42:26] Mozambique is where they shot A lot of this stuff That's in Zaire And Will Smith trained for a year As a boxer And He looks good He looks good Like Physicality and like The performance of the fighting Is well done Really well done
[00:42:43] And then the movie came out And it was a box office disappointment And I feel like people were just like Yeah, it's weird It's kind of like cold Yeah, it's kind of chilly and long Not into it Yeah, it's weird I don't know Reviews were very bad
[00:42:56] Yeah, it was like Right Yeah, I mean yeah So my thing at this time And it gets to Oscar nominations Which were both surprises People did not think it was going to get Oscar nominations It kind of sort of
[00:43:05] I feel like the void thing was a total surprise And Will Smith went from being Like the presumed front runner To being like He's on the bubble He's maybe five or six It goes to 2001 It's like a really big year Like that's a Lord of the Rings obviously
[00:43:19] But also Beautiful Mind Beautiful Mind, Mulan Rouge These are in the bedroom What's the fifth best picture nominee? Gosswood Park, of course Oh But like that's the year of like Mulhollandry Monsters Ball, Training Day Yeah, this was a big year Yeah
[00:43:36] Ollie, so you did not see Ollie in theaters Not see Ollie in theaters So you saw it in your man sort of rewatch Right I assume you did not see Ollie in theaters I saw Ollie in theaters Okay I saw the shit out of Ollie in theaters
[00:43:47] All right, congratulations I have a very visceral memory Of seeing Ollie in theaters Right when, you know Cold season was starting Or really hitting in the doldrums of December It was this movie came out Christmas Day Which is a very bad time That's a very strange
[00:44:02] I would have imagined this is sort of like April movie That would probably Been a better time to release this movie Almost any time would have been a better time Christmas Summer you could do I believe I saw this movie on December 26
[00:44:15] Like I feel like I saw this movie the day after Christmas With just my mom and I Which was weird that I didn't see it with my dad and my brother It is weird They maybe had already seen it Maybe, but your brother's little maybe there Who knows
[00:44:27] He saw this big picture I'm sure I'm sure I'm sure I'm not disrespecting Jamesy Newman Please Viewing of Ollie How dare you disrespect Jamesy Newman Sure I saw with my mom and I have this very visceral memory Of a very long academic film
[00:44:41] That I had been blowing my nose too much In the days before My runny nose And my nose was very chapped Watching Ollie This is your visceral memory And I still enjoyed it Despite the fact that I was like Actively like Itchy nose
[00:44:55] And the fact that it was like Two hours and forty-five minutes Right, I remember being very engrossed by it Which I found surprising Especially when people were writing it off as like Yeah the thing kinda doesn't work Now My father Big boxing fan
[00:45:10] My father wanted to be a sports broadcaster We talked about this but he did a thing called Sportsphone That was what gambling addicts would call up If they wanted the scores of the games that had just happened They needed a quick answer Before the internet
[00:45:23] They couldn't wait until the paper to find out whether or not They were gonna have to go on the run My father was also a gambling addict this time He was precision Pete Newman and he did that And he wanted to be sports broadcaster
[00:45:34] Then he got his one on camera shot Which is he hosted a documentary Called I think Muhammad Ali One More Miracle That was about him coming out of retirement in the mid-80s Which is one like he Cause he would always come out of retirement
[00:45:46] To make more money And it was kinda sad And he was too old It was the worst one It was the worst one It was like the one where everyone was like What manager is making him do this It's on Vimeo, you can watch it
[00:45:58] I believe my father is the one who uploaded it Is that possible? Can you check? Peter Newman Yup, thank you He had it digitized But it's yes It's Muhammad Ali kinda chunky He looks a little chunky With a mustache
[00:46:10] And there's my father, Full Jew for interviewing Muhammad Ali Your dad was so Albert Bruxy I know your dad now obviously Yes Howie Mandel also people on the street would stop him And yell, hey Mandel You think you're too big for me? Cause he refused to sign autograph
[00:46:25] You'd be like, I'm not Howie Oh, oh what Mandel You get on TV a couple times and now you're thinking He truly, people would get angry at him But this is my father's profile picture on LinkedIn On every like thing is him interviewing Ali here
[00:46:38] Cause that was like his moment of pride And he watched the thing And he was like, I suck on camera My father, you might notice in this shot All you see is the back of his Like he couldn't figure out how to be on camera Yeah
[00:46:50] You're looking at like a brillo pad It's really true This is not how you set this up No, no And so Muhammad Ali was like a very big figure in my childhood His regular bar in the 80s Before my mother made him quit gambling
[00:47:08] In order to, as a condition for them getting married Was this place called Jimmy's Corner In right off of Times Square That is still my favorite bar in New York City That is this guy Jimmy Glenn Who was like a boxing corner man
[00:47:21] And the bar is just filled with like incredible Actual boxing memorabilia And the fun thing about Jimmy's Corner is It's on like 45th off of Broadway And you're like, how does this place Afford to stay open in Times Square In this day and age With beers that cost $2.50
[00:47:42] And the answer is I found out many years later That Jimmy did a favor for the patriarch Of the family that owns the real estate And that patriarch promised That as long as he was alive Jimmy's rent would never go up
[00:48:00] And the name of that family was Durst Oh great, great But the daddy Durst, right? Not the bad son Ultimate Papa Durst But flash forward I'm young My brother, very physical Big sporto Has a lot of aggression I have a lot of sadness in me
[00:48:22] And don't like moving Hate the feel of air on my skin Really like in sympathizers This is a lot of sadness You don't like air on your skin Too much Sure, sure My brother and I will fight all the time I will fight verbally
[00:48:37] He'll just sort of leap on you And start wailing And I'll just scream And my parents will come and break us up And it was a very weird dynamic in my childhood Where my parents would be like You have to punch him back Yeah, exactly
[00:48:52] And my parents were constantly trying to encourage me To punch my brother Rather than saying to you They're just like James is going to punch you We're trying to deal with the James punching thing We can't figure out how to like
[00:49:03] Because he would wail on other kids too He was like Tasmanian devil And he just couldn't kind of express himself And now my brother is a very well adjusted person Yeah, your brother's great But at the time he had a lot of energy
[00:49:16] So my parents in trying to figure out a way To get me to defend myself Had me start taking boxing lessons with Jimmy Glider Oh boy This real corner man at like a boxing gym That smelled like 12 ball sacks That's what all boxing gym smells like
[00:49:31] The worst smelling place And I was like nine years old And once a week after school My dad would pick me up And I'd have to box with a bunch of old sweaty men And I hated it Oh you didn't like that? Oh you weren't into it?
[00:49:42] It wasn't really your vibe? So much And the only benefit to it was That afterwards because my father had to go back to work And do more work after that He would bring me back to his office Before we went home And my dad had the internet
[00:49:57] In his office Which we didn't have at home So I was like I just got to get like Punch an old guy for an hour And then I can go to the Lego website You know, like that was like my life For like two years
[00:50:10] So I was like in a weird boxing world Yeah, okay I didn't like it at all But you were at least being told the basics of boxing And I was like living it I was seeing these guys And they were explaining the psychology of the whole thing
[00:50:23] And my brother was so jealous that I got to do it And then this weird thing happened Which was simultaneously my parents Finally listened to my pleas And stopped making me take boxing lessons And they took the risk of Letting James take boxing lessons
[00:50:37] And James totally leveled that Right, because all his energy could be expended And like the strategy of the whole thing And he's become like the least violent person in the world Yeah, he's very chill Your brother's pretty chill He's very chill And my brother almost became professional boxer
[00:50:50] Oh wow He got his golden gloves license He is a 5'6 Jew There was a narrow category In which he could have had a career But they're little boxers right? Feather weights and all that Right, and they were like This is the best Jewish boxer we've seen since
[00:51:03] He's got a lot of energy My brother's got kind of like a good body build Despite being a short guy Right And he was really smart about Sort of the chess game of boxing The psychology of the whole thing But so this movie has a weird importance
[00:51:19] In like my family Because this was like happening In the nexus of all of these things You know, it's like when my brother Wants to be a boxer And I hate that I'm still going to boxing lessons This movie maybe comes out
[00:51:32] Right when that like handover is happening So I was just like fully engrossed by it I hadn't seen a Michael Mann movie before Sure I don't know if I'd ever seen this I had seen the inside Unconventional biopic before
[00:51:45] I certainly was a hardcore Oscar kid at this point Where if something was tapped in that kind of way And you like Will Smith And I love Will Smith But I just remember being very engrossed By this thing And the sort of How much it was a like
[00:52:03] A sort of time and place Political struggle movie Like I think I was worried it was going to be a sports film I mean in retrospect Right Watching Ali knowing that 2001 is not Not 11 happens And then the next couple years of American society It's just really
[00:52:21] And I grew up in a very heavily military place Right I grew up in this kind of place where If in 2002 you said I don't know maybe if going to war is a good idea People were going to sleep like Yes they were Tires
[00:52:32] They're going to beat the shit out of you And so just thinking about this movie That focuses on this particular part of Ali's life It was poorly timed perhaps Not just poorly but just like It kind of like This movie anticipates where American culture is about to be
[00:52:46] Yeah Like very very soon Yeah No that's a good point I mean this movie kind of goes over like Everything that the next eight years would be Arguing about in American culture Totally You know it is I feel like one of the earlier examples of the
[00:53:06] We're not going to try to make a complete biopic We're going to just focus in on a thing Right let's sort of pick out like Sort of a chunk of his life And focus on it Right we're not going to have a scene that starts with him
[00:53:16] As a ten year old His dad's like Alright Cassius you know Here are my hands He's got to hit them That's a jab And like you compare this to like I always wanted to be the greatest Right exactly And then his mother's like Let's call him Cassius Clay
[00:53:31] But he can change it later if he'd like Which is like Ray a couple years later Ray is 100% that Ray is like And gets all the Oscar nominations And is the most didactic like Right let's just lay it end to end He started here and he ended here
[00:53:45] And it ends with him getting the key to Georgia Literally him being like And now Georgia on my mind is the state song of Georgia And you like freeze He turns into a painting Right it's like Like people still wanted that Like even critics Sure
[00:54:01] Seemingly wanted more of that And this is a weird example because it's not The stakes of this were so high This was the Ali movie Right And I think people are kind of like This is what you did for the Ali movie
[00:54:12] I think it was burned by the idea of They're going to make the definitive Ali life story And Ali is a big He's a long life Yes Like it's you know Probably a standard biopic would be Really boring and really choppy
[00:54:25] Like you'd have to just sort of like Okay and now he did this fight Right You'd have to If you were going to do a standard biopic And not have it before hours long You'd have to sort of just jump The first like 10 years of his life
[00:54:37] Is like half the movie And then sort of everything between that And sort of like the 90s is like 20 minutes Yeah and all the political stuff would be very fast It would be like one scene He's like well I'm not going to Vietnam
[00:54:49] And then like two minutes later It's like we got the call You're all clear Where it's like the first You can do the rumble in the jungle now The first 45 minutes of this movie Malcolm X is essentially a co-lead I'd argue they have near equal screen time
[00:55:03] He's so good I think I was just watching this On the way up to New York I was like this is maybe the best Performance of Malcolm X On film That is I think it's the most accurate Like Denzel's incredible Sorry I forgot about Denzel That's the thing
[00:55:19] Hey hey listeners I saw Malcolm X Great film I love it But Denzel's You know He's great in Malcolm X Yeah And it is kind of crazy to think Right there was like we're going to have to do Malcolm X Like only a few years removed from this
[00:55:34] Very definitively regarded performance Yeah But Denzel's very big Yeah He's very charismatic He's playing younger Malcolm X Who is much less sort of You know stately I mean that movie is far more conventional In covering like almost everything Right well that movie is just
[00:55:50] Like it's going to be long That movie is four hours long Right Right Yeah I think it is It's like very long I'll say let me amend my previous statement I'll say that this performance of Malcolm X Is captured aside to Malcolm X
[00:56:03] That you don't normally get in performances of Malcolm X That's what I think is the big part Sort of the very introspective Incredibly introspective Right Yeah Right Because people You expect them to come in and be right Just being like you know Spouting lines
[00:56:16] And sort of have with one liners about You know Like my coffee The only integration I like is in my coffee Like you know jokes and sort of People tend to Front and center the righteous anger Sure Sure Which I think is also part of the
[00:56:31] Continuing narrative of trying to make Malcolm X Seem scary Sure And I think with Spike Lee And Denzel Washington Those are both angry guys You know I think they were trying to make a very accurate Biopic that still is That movie gets to this sort of Quieter page
[00:56:47] Oh it totally does Right But they are both You know very like outsized Emotional When I'm reading Malcolm X Is when Malcolm X is sort of like Am I into the You know Yeah He's at the right Is this working Which is very shocking to see
[00:57:03] And also Mario van Peebles is an actor Who usually plays it pretty cool Yeah You don't usually see this much Vulnerability out of him So to see him doing that And to see him doing that In service of this character Who we've never seen this sort of
[00:57:17] Vulnerable and self-doubted Like this scene I love him but What's the deal with him I don't know Why does he mostly make like junkie action Movies And then occasionally he'll be like By the way Like I am like a proper actor who After badass
[00:57:30] I thought he was going to have this Like career revival Cause like And he directs that too And it's so good And then he's sort of gone back to doing And then he's like Great can I do the Carlitos way Sequel You know like can I do
[00:57:41] Or he's like directed a bunch of the Like straight to VOD Nicage movies Like he's got a very weird career I don't have a lot of takes on Mario And people say he's great in this movie Yeah he's great in this movie And that scene where
[00:57:56] Where Ali is like I can't talk to you The one in the outside the hotel Yeah I thought that's That seems brutal It's very brutal You're like I've never seen anyone depict Malcolm X As low status before Which is kind of shocking Low status, dejected Kind of depressed
[00:58:12] Right Like without purpose in a way Like it's like looking for a purpose Whereas you think of him as such a Leader of a movement And here he's kind of like Oh I can't hang out with you guys Yeah I guess Right You know like Right
[00:58:26] I mean that's this Immediate interesting thing with the movie Is you go like The first 10 minutes Are cutting back and forth Between Sam Cooke performing That shit's so good Opening of this movie Will Smith just running for history I think it's some of the best
[00:58:37] Filmmaking man's ever done It is so good I really like Ali I do think It can never quite match The energy of that first half hour But it is one of those things Where you go those 10 minutes You're like okay people are sitting down
[00:58:47] It's the biggest movie star in the world Sure Making a biopic of one of the most Beloved Americans Who now we all accept He was always in the right Right It's kind of While Lu Amungus Ever didn't like Muhammad Ali Right That is definitely true There's that thing
[00:59:03] Like Colin Kaepernick Where they're like This is not the right way To be a political athlete Muhammad Ali never did anything Like this And people were like I'm I'm I'm Sure But that's the other kind Of movie like is just Relitigating all the times
[00:59:15] That America was angry at Muhammad Ali And being like You gotta you gotta live with this shit But the first 10 minutes To be like Oh we're starting here Sure Like we're starting like This late into his career We're not seeing the build No It's starting right before
[00:59:30] He wins the title Yeah Which like The listen fight Which is like Ali was the sort of brash You know people were like Oh this this guy's too mouty Right He's all talk And suddenly listening was seen Sort of like Oh he's like an upstanding athlete
[00:59:44] There there that's the kind of guy We should you know Don't you think though Most people would have made the film That started with him Like walking into the gym For the first time Sure Or him winning this title You know the Olympics is sort of his first
[00:59:56] Like coming out moment When he wins the gold in 1960 Like that's yeah I also don't think A more conventional version Of story would have included The kind of I think still today Kind of surprising stuff Of him encountering the picture Of Emmett Till Yeah In a sort of
[01:00:12] That like the radical Basically his story of radicalization Of like becoming very Politically Disillusioned Kind of disconnected from Kind of mainstream Black politics What it's also this movie about Like celebrity It's about So much the like What is your responsibility as A celebrity
[01:00:32] The thing that keeps on being brought up Of like I thought you wanted to be Like the people's champion Right You know We were talking about this Like enemies sort of Has that strain to it too Right Yeah Of like Right how America kind of Lionizes
[01:00:47] And then bites back And sometimes in the same motion Right you know I mean I don't think It's just on this theme Like a thing that stuck out To me is just the fact That you know Jeffrey Wright's character Is always present with the camera Right Always documenting
[01:01:00] And even The Malcolm X character Always has a camera with it Yes Right That's not an accident About what the movie's trying To say about sort of How the world perceives you Your responsibility to the world All of that And from minute one I mean he's fighting obviously
[01:01:14] But like We're seeing like His and the fact that his relationship with Um Freakin' hell Howard Cosell was so important Like it's like one of the more emotionally Like truthful relationships Right In his life And I would say also Even though mostly it's just them Doing bits
[01:01:30] But not only that I would say it's one of the more Sort of vulnerable Intimate relationships Depicted in any Michael Mann movie That's romantic or not Like you rarely have friendship in Michael Mann movies It's usually an uneasy alliance Usually friendship in Michael
[01:01:45] Mann movies is sort of like I respect you Right I would shoot you if I had to But I respect what you do You're a professional Like you know Obviously I want to murder you Right And love in Michael Mann movies Like sexual love is usually
[01:01:57] Like a woman shooing at a man And the man going like I can't disagree Where's this movie Jada Pinkett is like With the exception of Last and the Mohit Right The swooning movie And he hasn't seen that I will have seen it
[01:02:10] By the time you've looked into this episode But you're right That's like him in this much Swoonier mode That is unusual for him But in this movie Jada Pinkett Especially is like Really sexy Like that's sort of Like the thing with her She's forward And she's like
[01:02:23] You know her own person And you know Muhammad Ali's like I've never met anyone like you Like she's exciting Like she's only in the movie Like five minutes But she's so exciting No All three of his Lovers in this film Are more agency Than most Michael Mann women
[01:02:38] Because they all kind of Actively pursue him Right Right But yes I do think The whole reason why He starts it with This guy just doing His sort of methodical running Right before he's going to have You know The first massive You know Potentially life changing
[01:02:56] Match of his life Yeah Is because He's interested in What responsibility Does this guy have The second he's placed on that Stage You know Like he's not interested in What Muhammad Ali had to do To get to that moment Sure Because the movie he's Interested in is
[01:03:13] Here's a guy It's like the You know some are born great Some have greatness Thrust upon them Like here's a guy Who innately is Much like Will Smith So charismatic So beautiful Right So smart So engaging So funny And then he also Was this incredibly gifted Athlete
[01:03:30] And that places him At the center of the culture This guy In that moment Trying to wrestle with How he feels about the culture And his own identity And what he wants to do With that position In terms of trying to change That for other people
[01:03:43] Which I think just throws Everyone off That it's like here's a movie Where you like have Boxing scenes That are very long And like very visceral Yeah And don't have A lot of catharsis in them No they're trying I think they're probably Trying to get the sort of
[01:03:58] Actual details of the fights Yeah Right And those are like You know When you see the rumble in the jungle And it's like everyone Who doesn't Anyone who knows boxing That was kind of a boring fight Right Because it's so much of Ali Just taking a pounding
[01:04:14] And just waiting Like you know And I feel like the two It's not like Creed Where it's like holy shit Every second of this Is like my body's on fire And he's dodging And he's so cool It's just like punch punch punch Wrap him up Punch punch punch
[01:04:27] Over and over again That's real boxing I know strategy Boxing is kind of boring Yeah I also feel like That's Watching this I was like what are the reasons Why boxing films are So successful It's weird that there is that Much success in boxing
[01:04:44] As opposed to other sports Considering boxing Is popularity in relation To other sports But I think A it's the fact That it is A solitary sport Yes That you only have to track Two people So you could do a binary Like here's who you're rooting for
[01:04:58] Here's their opponent You have to deal with a bunch of people On a field And the other thing is Because it is just two people In a ring You can kind of choreograph boxing And make it sort of aesthetic In the same way you can
[01:05:09] With like a musical number Right You know And you can build Those sort of emotional arcs Into it Yeah and also boxing Ends when you knock someone out I mean it doesn't have to But it can And that's like so So triumphant Right And brutal Right
[01:05:24] But that's the thing This movie like leans on The brutality of just like You're in this really tight Movie thing I mean this is One of the things I just find interesting about the movie Is sort of like Man kind of experimenting With digital photography Oh my god
[01:05:36] He switches between so many formats And that for I forgot he was doing it this early And in those fights It's like It's like the most visceral Like hits Yeah In films and digital Yes Or like uses the footage From the digital photography Which creates this
[01:05:50] Very interesting effect Of you're kind of in this Like warm cinematic fight And then you cut to their perspective Yeah all of a sudden Just like what the fuck Right Like that It's very weird Cause that's like I think the big thing He's experimenting with
[01:06:02] With digital is just like How do I make this more aggressive Yeah You know how do I take the Varnish off of this And place people in these Like uncomfortable worlds That I'm interested in And you never get that close No When you're like At the event
[01:06:16] Or watching it on TV Yeah And it really It's so visceral Ben do you like boxing Or you like boxing I love boxing I didn't know this about you Yeah I didn't I didn't really Didn't afford like Paper view or HBO So I didn't really get to
[01:06:30] Watch it growing up But I love boxing And I boxed many years When I was living in Jersey City You boxed many years? You got the frame for it Yeah I can see that Yeah You do look like one of the guys That Rocky beats at the beginning
[01:06:42] Of Rocky You look like Spider Rico I was thinking more Of one of the guys In like the Jim Matt Murdock Goes to in Daredevil I'll take it That's a compliment Yeah I'll take it Yeah But yeah I was really into this movie Yeah
[01:06:57] I'd never seen it before Oh wow And the visual filmmaking Of all the fights Those close ups And just the tight sort of framing Was so cool to see I also think the lack of music During the fights Because he uses music
[01:07:10] So well in the rest of the movie And then the fights He's really making you live with Like You barely hear like Crowd cheering or anything Like that's toned down And it's just like The dull sound of the punches And they're sort of breathing And the steps
[01:07:22] There's also They never cut to like The you know corner guy being like Oh no he's got to do this Or like you know what I mean Like even when there's the thing in his Eye which is something that happened During the listen fight
[01:07:34] That he couldn't see all of a sudden And they never know if that was like Sabotage or just some weird shit That happened Like you kind of know that That's happening But you don't really get why it's You know like it's just all Being replicated for
[01:07:45] All these characters like Ron Silver Ron Silver Paul Rodriguez Jeffery Wright Between the three of them And Jamie Foxx looking at Jamie Foxx Insane Looking great But Jamie Foxx has like Dialogue scenes in his life Yeah he does, he does But you're right Those other three guys are
[01:08:04] Jeffery Wright He's always in it Rarely talks He's playing a guy who is famously A stutterer and didn't talk much And when he does talk You hear him Malcolm Muhammad Ali's biographer Yeah he was kind of like The documentarian of the crew Right Right Who is always around
[01:08:18] Ron Silver who is like His corner man And Flo Dundee I was going to say Like those three characters Probably have less than ten lines Of dialogue between them In a three hour movie Right and they are If you were saying like
[01:08:29] I'm going to make an Ali movie They're all characters You'd be like Well they're going to be pivotal And they're in almost every Scene like I said Like as you said You're like Jeffery Wright must have worked Almost every single day On this movie
[01:08:40] But this is such an Ever-Present movie Where it's like Even Ali is sort of Like inscrutable You know like You're always with him Right We're like We're staying with him Yeah On his head Or anything like that Right And you're so happy that
[01:08:55] Like Dundee doesn't have a scene Where he's like outside on a Smoke break And he talks to Trada Pinkin He's like I'm worried about him For the first time Right That shit Wait what are you going to say I was going to say
[01:09:06] To be simph, it's sort of Like we get any like Real interiority with Ali It's like during the physical Moments Like when he's running When he's fighting That's when you kind of Get into his head Because those are the moments That he's like Not performing Right
[01:09:19] Sometimes when he's with women All of the With Nona Gay with Michelle Michelle Right Michelle Michelle Michael Michelle I always thought it was Michael Michelle Yeah I always thought that Nona Gay was going to be a big star Michael Michelle What are we doing here What's on ER
[01:09:36] How dare I disrespect her Yes Play the most boring character In the history of ER Eric LaSalle's wife Yeah But she's like a doctor She's in for like three years Dr. Finch That was My mom ER was the only show she watched My mom was like
[01:09:49] She watched ER every week And when Michael Michelle came on screen She went like Oh Jesus Christ She was a real bummer on ER Yeah My mom did not see this movie I saw this movie with my dad My dad was obsessed with Muhammad Ali
[01:10:00] I feel like most Dads People that age My father in law Is obsessed with Michael Just with Muhammad Ali Just the most important Athlete of their generation Yeah And probably of like America I mean kind of I think fair say like ever Yeah Probably the most consequential
[01:10:17] Which is funny because In every sense He was just a boxer Yeah He lost fights too He had that sort of Weird end of his career You know but He did a Pierre Newman documentary I mean you can't go much lower Than that Exactly
[01:10:29] It's such a weird sport too The tradition of it Right Like and like Seeing it in that time And like my parents growing up They watched the fights Like it was just such a present Ever present part of like America's culture Well that's the other thing
[01:10:44] Is that most boxers Are viewed as scary Like the reputation is like This guy's fucking intense Hulking and powerful And yeah like They talk with their fists But I feel like since like Lennox, Lewis like Or I guess Pacquiao is like Kind of the new stand out
[01:10:59] Like he has fights With Mayweather And with Mayweather who sucks He's like the exact kind of boxer Where it's like Not interesting to watch No He's like a point guy Right All these guys are just Kind of like bulldogs You know Yeah I grew up in Britain
[01:11:15] I'm sorry I'm sorry What? Yeah Wait so Wait a second Wait a second This movie Wait you go see it on boxing day I actually did probably see it on boxing day Except for you It's literally boxing day You know what I probably saw it on boxing day
[01:11:31] I saw it on boxing day But in Britain boxing Is such a big deal Well they named it day after And Lennox Lewis was Probably the last British boxing hero Sure And everyone in Britain Always knew he sucked Like he didn't suck He was good
[01:11:45] He was a good boxer But like when he He got He had a glass jaw Like he got punched one time He fell right down and that was it Right And he was never the same again And everyone in Britain Even though we all loved Lennox Lewis
[01:11:55] Like yeah He was never like for real In the way that like Just you know how he was And also none of those boxers Ever connected in the same way As people outside of the ring Like it was only ever exciting When they got back in
[01:12:05] The only other guy who had The same kind of cultural weight Was Tyson And that was like revulsion It was like what's this guy's Fucking deal Sure Who is this guy? You'd have to for something comparable To Ali you'd have to go back
[01:12:17] To the beginning of the 20th century With what's his name You mean boxing wise? Boxing wise Yeah who are I know who you're thinking of Black guy Dated white women Joe Lewis And then sort of I mean it's sort of a similar Kind of reason why
[01:12:32] Like Joe Lewis connected to He was like the first black athlete To connect with non Black people Right To connect with white people Right Pretty much Pretty much in argument And sort of he was a fast talker Like he was transgressive
[01:12:46] And sort of Ali in the same way Kind of like is There's racial flashpoint In the United States And he kind of like Basically channels it through sports Which is great And that dynamic doesn't really Like exist anymore I mean that's why Kaepernick
[01:13:04] Is like the closest possible thing To think of now Sure And the thing about Kaepernick Is that he is Like no one would say like Well this is also like Inarguably the best football player Right exactly Like you know Did you imagine the president Weighing in on him
[01:13:18] Like not wanting Wait you think Trump Would have something to say about this guy Uh yeah I also That was the point I was trying to make Well Trump has like Didn't Trump He did some fucking Muhammad Ali thing I'm sure he did Oh did he
[01:13:32] He did I swear to God I can't remember because it was 87,000 terrible things ago But he did one of those things Where he like Oh he pardoned him He pardoned him That was it Yeah right He gave him the posthumous I forgot about that
[01:13:45] Right and sort of around the same time As the Colin Kaepernick thing Yeah sure sure He was like criticizing Colin Kaepernick And then gave Muhammad Ali the pardon It was less than a year ago Yeah that happened like recently Jesus Christ 100% And like he did that
[01:14:00] And no one like It's not like anyone Anyone was like Oh thank you That's good We really were waiting on that But then he also hid behind that Like I'm not a racist But then he was like Muhammad Ali Who is dead
[01:14:11] He died you fucking piece of shit You don't get points for that Good point But you're right He's channeling so much of What's happening in America Through boxing Which is a very specific thing Yeah Well and it's this thing as You know as you sort of said
[01:14:26] Like I don't know anything about sports But there are the people who like Cross over into just like The general culture where I have to Know about them And like Kaepernick as someone Who I only know as a political figure Of course
[01:14:38] I had never heard his name as an athlete before Right If LeBron James was taking the same Stands that Kaepernick took Then that would have the sort of Import of Muhammad Ali Right But the fact that Muhammad Ali Is someone where like
[01:14:52] I as a child who hated sports In this time period Still would have probably Liked watching this guy on TV Do interviews You know I would have bought a fistful of fries It's just more exciting But I don't like UFC I find it really boring
[01:15:08] I guess he's very boring I'm not into it I'm gonna watch it It seems too much for me I loved Ronda Rousey Ronda Rousey was like The only athlete I have been personally invested in And I would watch her fucking fights And one of the things
[01:15:20] I liked about them was that They were always short Right That I knew Like I wouldn't have to engage With it for too long Because her whole thing was That she would knock you out In five seconds But I would like go to the bar
[01:15:30] And watch the five Like warren fights And be like cool I'm just gonna keep talking To people Three minutes And I'd be like this is the greatest Thing I've ever seen But then it was depressing When she like Then started slipping It was like Lennox Lewis
[01:15:44] She lost and that was that Right, she was like And then never could fight She never got it back My dad was obsessed with Ali I just wanna say this I keep forgetting about this anecdote He My dad covered the Rome Olympics 1960 Which Ali fought
[01:15:59] And when he was a little baby When he was like 19 And Ali did the thing That he does in this to him Which was one of his favorite tricks The put your hands up I'm gonna punch you six times Yeah Did I get you Which is so funny
[01:16:12] Yeah And I remember he was He was like he did that to me He did that to me That's all And couldn't I couldn't forget about that Before we got this out of here I think my dad's story is He did the same thing to him
[01:16:22] When they were filming the documentary Sure It was like his favorite little Jokey thing But his hands were shaking And he couldn't do it My dad was like This most depressing thing Well that's the thing The fight your dad is covering Is like the fight where
[01:16:34] After his people Like he's already showing The Parkinson's disease Like it's not even a joke I think it was the last one Yeah I think you're right Right And one more miracle was the pitch Of like he's gonna pull it out One more time And I'm like
[01:16:46] You can't stand up But we don't have that in this mood So we're starting with The listen fight The Sam cook All that stuff Him running The flashbacks to his childhood The sense of this guy Reckoning with His place in society You know Yup
[01:17:02] His history as a black man In America Now someone on the cusp of Of having You know The ear of the nation And right after the fight He and Malcolm were talking About going to Africa But it's already kind of over For Malcolm Like right like
[01:17:15] We're entering at the end Of his time This would have been like 63 64 Yeah that one is the first Clay listen I think it's 63 Because I think that's when Malcolm makes his trip to Mecca Yes Right right right Alone Yeah Or not alone But like not 64 is the fight
[01:17:34] 64 okay And then 65 I think they fought again Yeah But yeah right So I guess They're probably like fudging That time a little bit right Because when does Malcolm Get assassinated 65 Right Which they depict Yeah this is also one of Those movies that just Jumps around in time
[01:17:53] A little bit Which I think disoriented People because it doesn't Make like hard proclamations Of how much time has passed Or where we are Right But it's yeah In 64 is when Malcolm sort of Breaks the nation of Islam So I guess that's just sort of Happening Yeah
[01:18:09] And these are two guys Who are like You know in the center Of the cultural conversation And you get a lot of scenes Of them in just like Shitty hotel rooms With like 20 other people Just being like What are we doing Uh huh Is this like
[01:18:22] Are we doing okay here Those are there's the one Scene where he Where Ali is like Watching a documentary about Termites Yeah And Malcolm comes in And just kind of like Has his monologue about being angry And it's just like What movie am I watching Like this is
[01:18:36] This is supposed to be a Muhammad Ali biopic And there's just very raw Kind of like Moment involving Malcolm X Yeah But that thing about all these People being around them all the time Whether it's like Family members Or like the press Or the people of their team
[01:18:54] It's like I feel like a Very good visual representation The fact that you have all these actors In almost every scene In almost every shot Whether or not they're speaking Of just like The weight you must feel If you're in that position Right You know that you have
[01:19:10] All these people who are sort of Connected to you And are looking to you Right And you're like controlling the room Even if you're just sitting down Watching a documentary on TV Right Everyone's sort of like Circling around you Um I mean it's like
[01:19:23] You know some people have entirages Because they want to insulate Themselves from the world Well sure and also you can't like Go out as a normal person anymore So you don't need to have A social scene with you Right But some people have like
[01:19:34] Entirages to try to remind themselves Of like what's going on And this feels like a guy Who's like constantly trying to make sure He's still like Connected to a web of people But he's very inscrutable in this movie I think that's one reason People are really just
[01:19:50] Not into this movie He never explains himself Once in the entire movie Right And it's I think you could watch this movie And have the takeaway like Wasn't only like a very passive guy Who's kind of being led by other people
[01:20:01] But I don't think that's the take the movie has It's just that he was kind of a locked up guy I also just think this is closer to how People behave in real life Right Like people want the fucking Which Michael Mann likes Right
[01:20:14] But I could also see a studio being like Michael Jesus He's charismatic Have you heard of him? He's very charismatic Right Which of course he is charismatic I think Will Smith's great in the scenes Where he's being the showman And he's like But like You know
[01:20:30] But very rarely do people just Clearly elucidate What they're planning to do And why they're planning to do it And so this is a movie where he just kind of acts And people are like Wait, that's going to go out on the news And he's like
[01:20:43] Yeah, I know Right Then he goes and takes a shower Sure So he changes his name There's the scene where Howard Coussel corrects himself On air Which I think is very powerful Really And like beautifully acted That's sort of like where he's just sort of sensible He's like
[01:20:59] Right, you get to be called whatever you want to be called Right, you know I apologize Yes, it is weird that That becomes like the movie slam dunk Oscar nomination Because I feel like when everyone was excited For this movie That was the big question mark of like
[01:21:13] What the fuck is he doing Casting John Voight as Howard Coussel It was like insane makeup Which I gotta say I had forgotten Every time I've seen this I just forget it's John Voight Yeah He does not look like him No No
[01:21:26] You showed me a picture of him in the makeup I would certainly never guess that it's him But I feel like For those rare ones That Monday night football like TNT movies around the same time Where you have Tartaro playing Howard Coussel Right And that's like
[01:21:38] He doesn't really look like Howard Coussel He's got the hair Right But apart from that he just sort of looks like this weird guy And he also doesn't totally sound like Howard Coussel No Like he's doing a good character Yeah
[01:21:51] It's not like a one to one dead on impression Very odd for Voight It's so good And he apparently both Man and Smith were like Voight Voight's the guy for it Yeah Which I guess Man had worked with Voight and he Has a fence With a ponytail
[01:22:04] With a big hair Yeah, that's right Had Smith worked with him? No, right I don't think so Is he not an enemy of the state now? He feels like he could be an enemy of the state He wasn't an enemy of the state
[01:22:15] Maybe he's an enemy of the state Maybe he could be in it, right? Yeah It's a very weird choice But I think the thing that Voight is so tapped into Which is like another key to this movie Is the way this guy shows his emotion
[01:22:27] While having this like completely unbreakable Professional broadcaster Sort of behavior, you know? Right And John Voight is an enemy of the state There you go See, I knew it Yeah He plays Thomas Bryan Reynolds But that fact that like he's not a guy
[01:22:45] Like what's so touching about that first scene Where he like acknowledges his name change Is that this guy is not losing His professional broadcaster closure That it's not like some moment where he breaks down And makes some big emotional stance Right That he's so business-like about it
[01:23:04] Is just like this is a guy who retains his humanity Even while he's always constantly kind of performing And I think that's the thing that Ali and Kassel Probably bonded on Is they both had these like very specific personas Yeah, and they were very like right
[01:23:20] They were expected to fill a specific role in society Right, they always had to be on Yeah He meets Sonji, Jadis character I love that scene I love her so much She is so good at connecting with other actors Which is like feels like a light compliment
[01:23:40] Because that's like the name of the game When I see her on screen I'm like oh right Like you have good chemistry with everyone And you totally change based on who you're working with And what scene you're in and what project you're in
[01:23:52] This is the first time, well she was on what A couple episodes of Fresh Prince But this is I think it's the first time They're together Right, in a movie Interesting role for her to play When you consider the dynamic of their relationship
[01:24:03] Because she's out of the movie fast Yes Right, you know the nation doesn't approve of her She's too like loose or whatever right She's too loud, too fast So she's out of there really quickly But they have such good chemistry
[01:24:16] She might not remember if she was in more of the movie Me too And she's really not Because he meets Nona Gay right after Right And she's very appealing too I think Michael Mann wants you to think about The fact that Muhammad Ali married young women
[01:24:30] Over and over again I did not realize that Nona Gay's character was 17 But she introduces herself as saying Like I interviewed you when I was a child Right And you were a grown man I was like please say it was 15 years ago You're right So, but yeah
[01:24:46] I think the scene of them getting married Which again, it becomes very impressionistic In the middle of the movie And I gotta say There's no detail Like this movie has grown on me In the times I've watched it For the first time I saw it
[01:24:58] I was sort of like this back middle part of it Just like it drags And there are moments It does It's long There are parts that kind of just feel Like they shouldn't even be in the movie The whole like FBI informant subplot I'm just like
[01:25:12] I think there's a little too much stuff in the offices When you have your weird like Oh here's like Ted Levine and Bruce McGill Like tap and wine There's, Mann keeps adding that In all his reedits he puts more of that in Why?
[01:25:25] He's like we need to realize That the FBI was always watching him So it's sort of part of the scrutiny thing But I agree that it is weird Because it never results It never results So like Bruce McGill comes in at the end
[01:25:36] And is like you're under arrest And it kind of just like slows Even it's, it takes the Like it runs into the impressionistic parts And just like You're sort of like Oh okay moment with his wife Or like with And then oh yeah the FBI
[01:25:48] Is wire tapped his phones It feels like it's out of a more Perfunctory plot driven movie Except none of the plot It doesn't pay off Nothing resolves in this movie Like Jamie Foxx is in most of this movie I think it's a terrific performance
[01:26:01] It was that early sort of like Where people were like Jamie Foxx a real talent Like has he done a performance like this since? Like just a weird fucking performance Honestly the closest thing to this The soloist The soloist I was about to say which no one remembers
[01:26:15] Nor should they But now he rarely lets himself be this Uncool Like he's very He's playing kind of a famously Uncool guy Like he was a weird guy And after this He's like a balding half Jew heroin addict Yeah
[01:26:31] Who talks about how he's a balding half Jew heroin addict So he won't shut up in baskets And like an amateur poet After this is like He doesn't really do much until collateral and ray In 2004 He doesn't really do a lot of moves Right
[01:26:45] Which are also both weird performances In their way actually you know There was another I think collateral's a very against type performance For five Against type very weird Very good performance I think it's a terrific performance We talked about this in the episode
[01:26:57] But that role was written for Adam Sandler Yeah The whole notion was like you put him Tom Cruise against an obvious Comedic actor playing a little tone down And it was like man was like I want him in like punch drunk love mode
[01:27:10] Jimmy Foxx was a very weird casting choice But he leans into it and he's good at it He's good at playing a charisma less guy Right It felt weird at the time that he was casting someone Whose reputation was largely cool
[01:27:23] To play the part in what was supposed to be an odd couple Kind of like one guy's a loser movie Yeah He's really good Yeah cause he takes Jada and Jamie Foxx from this movie My own man does that thing where you kind of like
[01:27:35] Pick someone from the last movie And bring him to the next project Like sort of you know I mean Jamie Foxx is his guy He does three consecutive Jamie Foxx moves And then they fall out in Miami Vice Clatter on Miami Vice This one Oh yeah
[01:27:49] And then they don't think they like each other anymore Miami Vice drove a wedge between them I really like Miami Vice rules That's the best I think it was a tough experience to make But yeah, this middle is very fudgy and strange
[01:28:02] And like tough to get a grasp on And the political stuff is easier to get a grasp on Obviously because that's such a crucial part of the Ali myth But like Plot-wise it's never There's never like much momentum I think part of the idea is Ali was literally
[01:28:17] Couldn't really do anything Right he's aimless He's sort of very aimless And like his dad and people are saying like These are the prime years of your career And you're like not part of it You don't get many of them I like that scene with a John Morton
[01:28:30] Yeah Is so good where he's like You don't get many of these Yeah And when he pitches him the burger place I mean I like how much the movie is focusing on How broke he is Yeah You know that weird position of being like
[01:28:43] You still are incredibly famous Even if you are vilified certain quarters And you can barely pay your bills Right That he's sort of at this like stand still And then like things are happening Like Malcolm is assassinated We see Martin Luther King played by LeVar Burton Very strange
[01:29:00] Only on television Zero dialogue And like you know like it's like history Sort of playing out This performance is a photo in a newspaper Yeah Again I feel like this is what bothers people About this movie Right Because it does
[01:29:12] It has sort of a bit of the kind of like Fassade of a traditional biopic At parts and I can imagine being an audience goer Hyped up to see it And you get that open And you get sort of like Oh Malcolm X there and
[01:29:24] And then for 45 minutes You're just kind of like chilling Just hanging out He's like another failed marriage Marriage is sort of immediately obviously not like He's not heroic He's not politically He's a guy who is very famous And has no idea what to do with this Right
[01:29:46] And also one of his most political and heroic acts Is him not doing something Right So it was that too And the sense that he has like a very Strong belief in his own morality Like he knows what he stands for And he's only questioning whether
[01:30:02] How much damage that is causing him There's no consideration Like he is so steadfast There's no scene where he like Talks through the process of why he's going to Refuse the draft But you have a lot of scenes of him just being like A really tough decision
[01:30:20] Really smart from this thing The thing I was going to say about The Jada Pinkett thing I love that scene where she asks him if he's a virgin Right Because he is so weird Right When she's seducing him And it is that sense of like
[01:30:34] These three marriages to these young women It kind of feels like he has built this Like very sort of like Confident, loud persona Around a guy who isn't really In touch with the more intimate Quiet sides of his personality So every time he like meets a nice woman
[01:30:53] He like immediately falls madly in love with her Like goes straight to the far end I mean, Baba Shaka Henley has that line where he's like This is like a woman you date You don't marry her Yeah You know this is like a first date
[01:31:06] And he's just like No, I know I know When I know I know This is it Right And I think his scene with his first scene with Nona Gay Is similarly lovely And that shot of them getting married
[01:31:16] Because I think they got married in one of this sort of mass weddings Like it was like you know Is very lovely And then she's basically not in the movie anymore Right You know and we don't even see them fight Because I think Michael Mann doesn't
[01:31:26] At least it'll like I don't know Do people fight Like as the couples have probably You know like right like I'm sorry if the chicken got overcooked I guess that's the you know like his version But like There's already fighting in the movie David Yeah he is fighting
[01:31:38] He has the Joe Frasier fight Which he loses Which is also a bummer Yeah Like you watch him Right Right where he just kind of sucks the whole time He's not really fit He's not really like ready for it Yeah So that's bad
[01:31:52] Jamie Foxx is big like Oscar scene Where he admits that he sold the belt Yeah Which is just like so fucking depressing He's great in that scene Yeah so good Yeah And then the back third of the movie Is the Ramon in the Jungle Right
[01:32:06] Which I feel like when we were kings The documentary That was the thing It only come out a few years ago If you've ever seen it Which is like a pretty standard documentary That's just a good retelling of like The Ali Charisma And the Ramon in the Jungle
[01:32:17] And it won the Oscar And it was kind of like a crossover commercial play At the time when there was still very much Just sealing a documentary And it's about like you know Don King And like Don King's whole thing And what you know you know Jerky was
[01:32:30] But also how good he was at marketing himself A very skilled functional documentary Of in a very concise way Probably what people wanted out of this movie Yes Explaining Muhammad Ali's cultural importance And setting the stakes for that fight And making you care about it Okay
[01:32:44] And it's just like straight down the middle hits you Whereas this is like It's so weird Really weird Because he's he kind of I think he kind of likes being in Zaire Right Like all this stuff where he's walking around Right When he's really Is fascinating
[01:32:57] But it's also a little depressing It also feels a little inert A lot of it's him waiting Yes You know He's kind of chilling out Don King Michael T. Williamson is great in this movie Yeah But he's annoying Like you know You know that's another
[01:33:11] Oh he doesn't like like him He's like shut up He's like He read every letter in the dictionary That line Do you know what I'm talking about They're at a press conference And Don's doing this thing Yeah I just love that little moment It's very funny
[01:33:24] That is a crazy thing about this movie though Where you're like Okay when we were kings Like just a couple years earlier Covered this trap there Like Ving Reims just won a Golden Globe For playing Don King Sure that's right Like Denzel Less than a decade earlier
[01:33:37] Played Malcolm X Like a lot of these figures Have just been like Played iconically A lot of these chapters in history Have just been depicted In more successful sort of populist ways Yeah And you know this is weird Which I think too is credit is like
[01:33:52] That one shot of Mabuchi Like sitting down And being like Bring in Who does he He watched it with someone weird I forget He's some American journalist or something Yeah You know that's all very strange I think it's And the fight is weird The final like the Ropadope
[01:34:08] Like it's long And it's kind of boring He's sort of before the fight He's sort of like jogged through Zaire Or run And then you know he's He's kind of seeing himself Represented by the people of Zaire I think that's sort of For me that is the thing
[01:34:22] Man wanted to communicate To the audience Like this is the thing That matters about all of this Sort of like Ali recognizing Sort of like what What this means for other people And deciding to kind of embrace that But to get there
[01:34:39] You do have this like very strange It's weird Right I love it to be clear I just understand why people found it So distancing or so unsanitary I think it was maybe It was either Zoller Sight Or Bilga tweeted something Because they
[01:34:55] There've been three versions of this movie There's the one that's released Theatrically Like two years later He did an extended edition That's very long That's very long That's like I think it's three plus hours Two fifty or something Right It really tips up to the three hour mark
[01:35:09] And that was mostly just extended And then he restructured a couple things And then that was re-released In theaters after Ali died Yes And then like six months after that They put out a blu-ray where he was like After I saw the It's called the definitive edition
[01:35:25] Right, after I saw the extended cut Re-released I realized I thought I missed a couple points Right So then he like made it shorter It's the shortest of the three It removes a whole fight Right Which is like an uninteresting fight Right
[01:35:38] Because a man said it was episodic Yeah And it adds political stuff He wants like more political stuff Right, he adds more of the white dudes In the offices He does What's so weird about that whole point Of like I want the audience to understand
[01:35:51] That he was constantly being like Listened to You get that if it's just one scene One scene If you cut to one scene Of the guys taking the notes The host hell scene Where you see them Right Maybe even keep the scene
[01:36:02] Where the guy eats that really nice looking samosa I like that scene Yeah, that's probably my favorite of them Yeah I'm trying to think of I'm trying to find any other I don't know But other than that main Fight getting cut I mean I went to a website
[01:36:17] Where they outlined like Second by second The changes between the three cuts And a lot of them are very small A lot of them are like Oh yeah, no He showed a reaction shot He picked a different Like He's obsessive He's obsessive I mean like
[01:36:30] Fincher's like that too There are those guys Fincher famously with Gong girl Saw the premiere And was like This scene is five seconds too long Went back and changed it before it came out But Fincher's obsessive up until the moment When it gets out there
[01:36:45] Right, it's out there Forget it Where his man's like I don't know I'll just make another version of it again Maybe with this one in particular Precisely because the public reaction Was so tepid It sort of You may feel like There's just maybe there's a way to get
[01:36:57] To make this more That's what he kind of said Definitive, right I read this deadline interview that was when The last Blu-ray was coming out And it was like Six months post-death And he was like I just watched it in the theater My extended director's cut
[01:37:11] Right after he had died And I felt like This story wasn't totally there Sure Like a lot of times when I changed things With like heat or whatever It's like little technical things that bugged me I wish the timing was different
[01:37:22] And with this I thought I could have I could change a couple levels He's not changing being here The only thing which is that Ali is very mysterious Right That is his take And that's probably what's going to bother people More than anything
[01:37:33] So you know what I mean That's what I was going to say Is that the Zoller Sites of the Bill Go quote And I'm sorry that I'm giving one of them credit For what the other one said What are they doing Like splitting credit Was like
[01:37:44] It was when they re-released it And they saw it in the wake of his death And they were like It's kind of fascinating to watch now Because this is like Everyone's problem with it was He was using What people thought was going to be a biopic
[01:37:57] To essentially make a narrative cinematic essay Right Like it's very much like an essay movie About the intersection between celebrity and politics Yeah About the most famous person of the 20th century Who happens to be kind of inscrutable And his inner life isn't actually all that well known
[01:38:15] Right But here's the thing That's kind of the same with Will Smith Yeah, sure You're right An interesting thing where like Will Smith's tipping point Where he starts to lose his shine as a celebrity Is also when he starts to let us in a little too much
[01:38:31] Like late 2000s when it's like him with the kids a lot Right And he's like doing interviews where now he's like Talking about his like philosophical beliefs And now everyone's starting to question whether or not He's a Scientologist Yeah
[01:38:43] It was like oh we liked him when he was like Doing all the press in the world When he wasn't like standoffish But he was kind of a cipher because his personality was just like I'm the most fun guy Right
[01:38:56] I have the best energy, I have the best spirits I'm good at everything Right I'm Mr. Positive And I would just remember where like I think it was this year with Ali They cut to him in the audience at the Oscars a bunch of times Yeah
[01:39:08] And by the time they got to Best Actor It was the still photo and he wasn't in the theater And someone you know they said like what happened to Will Smith He was there They cut to him during the monologue jokes And he was like the babysitter called
[01:39:20] And said that Jaden had a fever so we left and we just went home And it was like he wasn't gonna win that night No But I remember that being such a big thing of like We know almost nothing about Will Smith's personal life
[01:39:32] Outside of the fact that he's married to this other actress And they have kids But when he does press he doesn't really talk about himself He doesn't get political He's kind of inscrutable outside of being the world's friendliest man Yeah Right
[01:39:45] The only things we know about him are like it seems like he's a good dad Yeah And then the second you get into him doing interviews where he's like We let our kids raise ourselves He started saying weird things I built Willow like a $20 million studio
[01:39:57] I sat my kids down and told them if they don't want to be in show business I'm not probably gonna have great relationships with them And then he started to go like what is Will Smith exactly? Yeah, what's his deal And now he's back on their music
[01:40:08] I'm fun I'm on Instagram Right And I'll do videos where it's like man remember that I was in Wild Wild West crazy Oh my god But see you're relating the two and they're very similar but he's not outspoken Politically That's never has been No
[01:40:24] And also can you imagine As far as I know at least I don't think that him has ever I do not I cannot recall a single time Will Smith has said anything politically
[01:40:31] Even though Obama has always been very clear that like he wants Will Smith to play him That's just vanity Yeah He always will say well he's got ears like mine Like that's what he'll always say
[01:40:41] That's the funniest thing about this movie is the only real prosthetic transformation they do on Will Smith is taping his ears back Right But yes, no Will Smith has always been sort of apolitical and I feel like anytime he's gotten into controversy
[01:40:55] It's like he's one of these guys who like it's like I'm a student of all religions I read every side Okay Right And I remember this quote where he did an interview and he was like you know
[01:41:06] Like I think people don't think about like the philosophy of like being a human being So like I read like Mein Kampf and I think it's important to like He did Yeah He was like I read Take it easy
[01:41:18] I read everything because I want to know everyone's viewpoint Okay And you read Mein Kampf and you realize like Hitler doesn't think he's a bad person Like everyone wakes up thinking they're a good person You don't go read Mein Kampf to get their insight
[01:41:28] But it's also like that's the most political thing he's ever said Sure Is like I mean I don't like Hitler but you know The guy didn't think he was a bad guy Whatever machines around him like anytime he would talk about Scientology or things like
[01:41:39] You know like whatever machines around him would sort of be like Will? No And like it would just go away and then it just wouldn't be discussed again Because he's always sort of Right there was that moment where it was like Tom Cruise was kind of fading
[01:41:50] Will Smith had clearly become the unquestionable guy And then all the stories were coming out about like Oh Tom Cruise is like wooing Will Smith hard Like suddenly there were stories about you know Katie Holmes, Tom Cruise, Will Smith and Jay hang out all the time
[01:42:03] And then you'd hear things about like Will Smith being Scientology adjacent But then it was always like Oh Will and Jay announced that they're going to start a school in Los Angeles And then it was like wait a second the school seems to use like
[01:42:16] Scientology study tech principles And then they were like never mind we're not starting a school Yeah, it's a lot of that stuff And then whenever people press them everyone else who's a member of Scientology Is so out loud like I love Scientology
[01:42:28] And Will Smith has been like hi Dabble Yeah He's a reader like you say He thinks about things Right But it is interesting that he's remained so apolitical And his celebrity was largely connected to the fact that he was so affable
[01:42:43] But it never really felt like we knew what made this guy tick There's something with Will Smith too about And this is I mean this would make some sort of an unusual choice to play Muhammad Ali Like Will Smith comes is a black celebrity at a time
[01:42:58] When this kind of black celebrity is still a little precarious Right like there's this thinking that if you get too outspoken or too political And don't have kind of like a pre-existing base of black people to retreat to You're fucked like you can't you're done in the business
[01:43:14] And so Will Smith probably like it's so conditioned in that world But even if he does have some political beliefs They're never gonna come out Like Denzel Denzel comes out of the same kind of time period 100%
[01:43:29] Even though he'll work with Spike Lee or someone who will happily talk all day about whatever he's Whatever's on his mind But yeah Denzel like does he express political thought really? Like not really right Even Sam Jackson's only recently sort of getting kind of like anti-trump
[01:43:45] And he's like that's just a character thing I mean fuck this guy And then there's always like the Hollywood liberal types like George Clooney's Whoever who are like always very outspoken and everyone's just like blah blah blah You know who cares right there's like that type
[01:43:59] It's almost it would be the equivalent of like I mean and this is I mean this is this is a this is sort of the argument of the big documentary But like if OJ Simpson had come out again some political thing in the 70s Right, right
[01:44:13] I thought of Kanye during Katrina Sure Yes at that moment because that was like the first time Yeah But even then there's something unique I mean what makes the 60s unique is that so much is happening Right? There's the civil rights movement
[01:44:26] There's the nation there is black power there is Vietnam war and Ali is kind of just like right at the center of all of it Right you go like this is like not too long after like the Hollywood black listings Yeah
[01:44:42] When there's been like a real precedent set for like if you're in the limelight and you express un-American thoughts You're fucking canceled Like it was the original cancellation, you know I didn't know about this Oh yeah, yeah You don't know about the Hollywood black listing? No
[01:44:57] Lots of people's names were struck from movies You would love this period of history Yeah basically there is one of the recurring red scares in the 20th century and like they're sort of trying to hunt out all the communists in American culture Right and they found like
[01:45:12] Swung back around or in Vietnam Any celebrity who had like ever At least in Vietnam once by the time Vietnam was around you can publicly take an anti-war position
[01:45:21] Right I don't think it was the communism thing but I think the idea of like Muhammad Ali being like we shouldn't be in this war Was like you got two choices either support it or you shut the fuck up
[01:45:32] And you're already in a religion that we find a little scary So like dude you're walking on thin ice Pretty scary Right That's the position It's the nation that was really crazy Right He was in the nation
[01:45:44] But they talk about it in the first hour of this movie They keep on saying like you know this radical militant group Because like again you can always like you know it's like Charlton Heston march with Martin Luther King
[01:45:53] Like there were lots of Hollywood actors who were very outspoken liberals at the time But they were usually like preaching non-violence and marching with you know
[01:46:01] Right that's why MLK was like his success was so tied to the fact that he was able to tackle all these subjects in a way that was non-violent Which made it very easy to endorse But also Ali would like go on TV and they'd be like come on
[01:46:14] You can't really think that you know like and he'd be like yes I do And I'm gonna say a bunch of other stuff now Do you know what the key difference is? I mean because we're saying obviously there are examples of people who are famous
[01:46:24] Who are outspoken, who take a stand on certain issues But there's the thing when someone becomes the undisputed number one Yeah In their field where they are like king of the mountain right at the top Sure Those people then their main impetus becomes I can't lose this Right
[01:46:39] And Ali is a guy who was like I will consciously let them take all of this away from you Literally they're like you have to box right now We'll just like rip the titles from you We'll ban you
[01:46:48] And what makes it so fascinating is I can't think of another period where that could have happened No Right like when Michael Jordan is the undisputed best basketball player in the world There was nothing happening politically They're one of the same kind of issues
[01:47:02] It's not the same kind of thing There's not the there's what I think music is where that's happening at that in the 90s right Yes What could he have said like I support Bill Clinton in front like I don't know where Right
[01:47:12] Translation is the way for that's right a third way Hi Michael Jordan I support cutting welfare But also like Michael Jordan was never a very interesting interview Like it was like this guy is good at selling me coke Well Michael Jordan liked to talk about basketball Right
[01:47:28] Like that was what he cared about Whereas LeBron James has actually been he's fairly outspoken Yeah You know and like you know he like Trayvon Martin things like you know he's always been fairly good Like he's not like the most dynamic interview in the world or anything
[01:47:41] But he's like usually staking out sort of the quote-unquote like slightly more radical position War is different in how Americans think about it like politically Like even even unpopular wars it's difficult Like how many people now do you hear say
[01:47:57] It's not like LeBron James was ever like we shouldn't be in Iraq That would have been nuts Right And that was never on the table The one group of celebrities who said we shouldn't be in Iraq The Dixie Chicks were campers for ten years Yeah, right That's true
[01:48:11] They were fine They were like yeah we don't support this president in his war But that's what I'm saying like they right they but they not in trouble because they were That was their base You know quote-unquote red states Right
[01:48:23] Where it's like again George Clooney, Woody Harrelson, Ed Begley Jr. Like whoever you want to think Like they were all like yeah we shouldn't be in Iraq and everyone was like well of course you think that George Clooney Right And this is another thing
[01:48:34] And no one gave a shit even though like George Clooney was certainly famous And Clooney is so issue based from the beginning That he like makes the choice Bono Right you know whatever All these guys like as they're Yeah whatever
[01:48:46] You know it's like Bono's like shouldn't be in the war and everyone's like okay Bono Both David and Jamel just did a jerk off motion To respected journalists Oh boy From papers and records What are you talking about
[01:49:01] But there yes there is the kind of like Clooney being like oh I'm starting to be on the conveyor belt to being a superstar Sure I'm gonna be very outspoken politically from the get go And like you know my tiny little fucking sliver of the universe
[01:49:17] I had a bunch of people go like are you gonna stop like tweeting like fucking Trump stuff now that you're on an Amazon show And I'm like no I don't care and they're like yeah but what if some people don't watch this show because of that
[01:49:28] I'm like what what if five thousand people don't watch the show But weird people Who are these weirdos You would be surprised how many people ask me that And I'm just like I don't care you know
[01:49:38] And I think Clooney is a guy who is like I don't care My values matter I'm gonna lead with that And there are other people who do that Then there are people who like become famous first And then are like fuck
[01:49:49] The drop between one and two is huge Yeah And I don't wanna make that drop And someone like Taylor Swift for years Is she a white nationalist cause she won't speak out against anything And then you realize
[01:50:01] She's taking this conservative stance like I'm just not gonna talk about I'm just not gonna talk about it And we all jump to white nationalists cause you're like well the only reason she wouldn't talk about is if she was a white nationalist
[01:50:09] And then it was only in the last like six months that she was like I'm donating a hundred thousand dollars to female Like I'm a fairly ordinary sort of like you know moderate liberal or whatever Like a Clinton voter I'm not super engaged in politics
[01:50:22] And was like here but I donated to a bunch of like female senate races You know It's that thing And that's what makes Ali like unique And that's the movie that Michael Mann wanted to make Right And also I mean I think part of the point
[01:50:35] Man's trying to make is that even the decision to be spoken is a little mysterious Like it doesn't Yeah You can't be no one reasons it No one says to themselves like Well you know I'm a Now it's time for me to do this
[01:50:46] Now it's time for me to do this It's just sort of It happened That phone call scene is the big one for me Right Where like he hangs up You see everyone in the room who's kind of like amused by the quotes he's giving
[01:50:56] And then he hangs up and they're like That was a reporter They're going to run that Right You don't want to use that language Right You know And it's like it's the Amit Till thing Of like that being like so at the beginning of the movie Right
[01:51:11] And he invokes it over and over again Is that sense of just like You're walking on thin ice Like even if you're top of the world right now You're like one inappropriate wolf whistle away Yeah You know whether or not you did it
[01:51:23] Of them being able to accuse you of a whistle And it's like it's all fucking gone And you're thrown in the garbage Something about that Amit Till scene That the first time I watched it I didn't notice it But when he looks at the newspaper
[01:51:33] The old man who was holding it Pushed it in his face Right Which is also sort of like There's something about that And sort of the fact that At least surrounds himself With lots of political black people Yeah Over the course of his life
[01:51:45] Who are basically doing the same Pushing in his face Right And he may be paying attention Yeah Right Sometimes he's more just in his own head But right it's all Not to scare him But to like remind him of what the stakes are
[01:51:57] He's not trying to be insulated And why he hates Don King so much I think it's important that he hates him Where he like immediately is like Now you're just This is bullshit You're not trying to like Bring money to Africa or whatever You're just a showman Right
[01:52:09] He's the greatest showman Yeah He was What if they do a greatest showman sequel About Don King What if greatest showman becomes Like an anthology fanfare That would be a better movie Better movie But if we had the similar take Where it's like He was great
[01:52:21] And you're like What about all this stuff It's like nah He was a showman I would love if like They like The greatest showman becomes like Gold diggers of 1933 Right Where they updated every couple of years With another shitty guy Who abused people The greatest showman Donald Trump
[01:52:38] He loved entertaining an audience In a way he is the greatest showman He kind of wants the great Alright We're gonna do the We're wrapping up now Do you have any final thoughts? I feel like this is a more in-depth Like kind of Take on a movie
[01:52:54] And sort of it's like Cultural import Than we've done in a while That's good though This is the movie to do that for And it's not a plotting movie Yeah Weirdly not Right Yeah, if you have any final thoughts Cause then we're gonna get to the joke
[01:53:05] I stole The box office game In the Spies and the Spies trailer Those are the three things You gotta knock out I feel like I've said my piece Yeah On the movie I just It's I think that I don't know if there will be another Muhammad Ali biopic
[01:53:21] Ang Lee came very close to doing The Ali Just the thrill and manila Like he wanted to do just a one fight movie And I feel like no one's ever gonna Attempt to No one's ever gonna stop To the cube or self We're doing another definitive one Right
[01:53:35] I assume anytime anyone Ever makes a hot Ali It would be like one slice Right But I do think man was On the right track Trying to situate Ali In a very specific historical circumstance And kind of almost make the point that Like maybe nothing like this can
[01:53:52] Happen again Just like the conditions for Just don't exist anymore Sure And that's what makes More than anything That's what makes Ali Historically noteworthy Cause There'll never be a figure that Culturally dominant There's not like one person Like even LeBron James Or whoever Like named the top athlete
[01:54:07] Like they're never They don't have as much of the Culture We don't want a culture anymore And also No one will ever have that impact again Because he was the first one to do that It became such a big deal Because that was not how Celebrities behaved Yeah
[01:54:23] In the movie itself Challenging movie I understand How much people do not like it Yeah But You know it's As you said Like it's a movie that Rewards upon rewatch Yeah And furthering I think so It's not a movie you can watch once And kind of digest
[01:54:40] If it is Kind of like an essay Then it is an essay that like One of those ones That you do your first read To kind of get a sense of what it is And then you have to do Continuous deep readings Right Right
[01:54:51] One other thing I like about this movie Is that I think they just handle very Subtly Bombadou is the Jamie Foxx guy Right Yeah Yeah Drew Bandini Brown Yeah Right That The No Bombadou What the fuck am I talking about? I don't know
[01:55:08] What are you going to say? Bandini Brown That he was sort of like His joke writer Right In terms of the rhymes Yeah He was coming up with a lot of the Pattern Right and you never see any of that Right But there's like
[01:55:20] The line where Will Smith is talking about Like how hard He's like Sort of gone down the drain Yeah But his rhymes don't even make sense anymore And you get the sense that it's just like He's like a weird guy Who talked in this like Circular pattern
[01:55:31] And then Ali was like Cool I'm going to start taking some of these Sure I know how to actually sell them And this is straight up But like you know During the sunny listen fight When he's sitting in the corner Ali you can see it
[01:55:43] If you watch the actual fight Would keep turning to the crowd And going like Like that Like airing his teeth And he does it with the mouth garden It looks weird And he wasn't yelling He was just doing that And he does it in this movie
[01:55:55] It's never explained Because no one knows why he did that Even though he's the most famous person Of the 20th century maybe Right You don't have a scene where Freddie Mercury Breaks the microphone stand Really What if I did this face? Right And like that's Right it's like
[01:56:09] I'm sure maybe even people ask him What were you doing And he maybe even had some answer That may or may not have been true Like cause he is so inscrutable Even though he's so famous He's a hard person to make a movie about Yeah
[01:56:20] But he's also very iconic I think it's a good movie But I agree with you Yeah It's very weird Yeah And like frustrating intentionally Very weird Christmas day release Very weird Christmas day release But first before we do the box office game
[01:56:35] The joke I stole from you was Jupiter reaching cruising altitude Oh thank you As a sequel to Jupiter ascending Which I think it just become canonical In my brain Sure Because that we make that joke Yeah You haven't forgiven me for this I haven't Well I'm sorry
[01:56:48] We'll work it out in the divorce In the settlement What? We're not getting divorced We're getting divorced Does Beng get like split in half Or something No no No baby Yeah I get the top half We're gonna divorce And still keep doing the podcast Interesting Alright fine
[01:57:04] The box office 2001 Christmas 2001 It's a very long weekend Right It's a five day weekend It's basically Christmas to New Year It was like a weekend I feel like this is one of those movies where Like the first day was big And people were like
[01:57:22] Oh it's gonna be a hit And then it just dropped way off I guess so If you break it down daily Ten million dollars on Christmas Yeah Yeah And then kind of drops off But it grossed 60 in total It grossed 58 total In its first week It grossed 40 million
[01:57:40] Right So it made almost all of its money In the first week It made almost It made more than One sixth of its entire box office Grows in the first 24 hours Yeah Like that's like And it made no money overseas Like 29 million Right
[01:57:56] It's kinda similar to Sweeney Todd Where it was like Big star peak Working with a big director And then everyone goes to see it Christmas And they're like What the fuck is this? Forget it And it hemorrhages audience But there's another problem Lord of the Rings
[01:58:08] Number one at the box office Lord of the Rings, the Fellowship of the Ring Which of course people thought was gonna be a hit But becomes unstoppable Yeah And people are seeing it again and again and again I think especially after Harry Potter worked People were like
[01:58:21] Well now like Lord of the Rings is kinda gonna be warmed over It's gonna be the bridesmaid Right exactly Harry Potter's gonna eat his lunch Right And then a month later Lord of the Rings becomes Wait did Harry Potter That first one come out in 01? Yes
[01:58:33] It came out in November Right They're like a month apart Wow In my brain Harry Potter comes out a couple years later No I guess No they both started at the same time And I remember it being like One of these is gonna be humongous Sure
[01:58:46] And obviously Harry Potter's the safer bet Because it's got this cultural thing And it was the highest grossing movie of the year Right Yeah although they gross pretty much the same amount Right 315 essentially Right And then Lord of the Rings the next two out gross
[01:58:58] The next two potters For sure Right And it becomes an Oscar film Which was crazy But I always think the three things that feel very post 9-11 to me Are two things really It's Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter hitting so big Right In the immediate months
[01:59:15] And then Spider-Man the following May Sure Are just like And now it's all like fucking High fantasy and superheroes We want like clear good and evil Lord of the Rings has made 174 in two weeks Huge But there's another movie That has made 136 in four weeks
[01:59:31] That's number two at the Christmas box office December 01 That's also kind of a definitive movie of the year December 01 Yeah But it came out in November I think I think it was a Thanksgiving movie No early December Early December Uh It's not Harry Potter No
[01:59:46] Monsters Inc came out early November We were talking about it's Star We're talking about it's Star Just now Yeah Just now Spider-Man No No not Spider-Man Get me Spider-Man Stop Just now Uh it's a big cast Is it Harry Potter No Stop saying Harry Potter
[02:00:05] Harry Potter is number five actually It's not Is it a franchise thing Yeah It becomes a franchise All the characters got business They do a lot of different kinds of business Sure A lot of business going on Big cast A lot of business Big cast
[02:00:17] Like a number of people Like a real List Yeah Like a number of people Is there a number in the title? Yeah Yeah It's not eight crazy nights No No it's not eight crazy nights Up Up It's not nine lives It's a game Hundred two Dalmatians Jesus
[02:00:36] Hundred one Dalmatians Down Double digits Just barely Just ten Eleven Eleven Yeah Ocean's Eleven Jesus Oh Come on People forget That's Christmas too Yeah And that was another huge hit Yes Yeah And then Ollie and Harry Potter The only thing we haven't discussed
[02:00:59] Is the number three movie of the year Probably the best movie of the year An animated film Was an Oscar nominee that year That's not Monster's End Nope That's an animated film It was probably the best film of that year I'm joking I've never seen this movie
[02:01:12] This is some You're bullshitting Is this something I like It's the other nominee Who are the three Animated film nominees The first year of the Oscar's Nominated animated film Oh, okay Right, of course It's Shrek There was Shrek There was Monster's End People thought the third nom
[02:01:26] Was gonna be Waking Life Sure And a big surprise A doodoo headed boy Rode in on his spaceship Sure Jimmy Neutron himself Boy Genius His head looks like A turd It does He's got the little turds swirl When people do a cartoon turds
[02:01:39] So those are the top five films Wow Jimmy Neutron Boy Genius Now it's time As we wrap up And thank you so much for being on our show Oh, my pleasure Happy to For Gemel to watch The Spies in Disguise trailer Okay, so here's what
[02:01:55] Here's what we're gonna tell you, Gemel Okay We are going to play you the trailer We're gonna tell you that There's a big twist in the trailer Right We're gonna pause it right Before the twist comes into play You better be quick on the pause Sure
[02:02:07] Yeah, and we're gonna ask you To guess what you think The twist is gonna be Now he might know He might have forgotten this movie exists And I'm just gonna do this first Thank you all for listening Please remember to rate, review, subscribe Thanks to Andrew Goodo
[02:02:16] For our social media Joe Bonaparte Rounds for our artwork They might come in for a theme song Go to blankies.red.com For some real nerdy shit Tee Public for some real nerdy shirts Patreon Blank Check Bonus Features And as always, what's your question?
[02:02:32] Do you feel like you're prepared? I feel like I'm prepared I was gonna say I know I forgot this movie Because I have like an eight month old And don't remember anything anymore Great Great Perfect Okay Well this may be Have you taken your eight month old
[02:02:44] To the cinemas yet? He has not seen a screen yet Okay this should be the one He's not seen any screen? No You're a good dad Wow You rule Okay Thank you so much for being on the show, Jamal Okay ready and we're gonna press play Okay
[02:02:58] On the trailer Feel free to, you know You're getting any sense of anything As it's going on Bye This is the third Will Smith movie So far I see there are spies in the skies Okay so he kinda looks like Will Smith Right
[02:03:18] This is part of the Will Smith Rehabilitation of He's like him America's favorite guy again Who's pie? Got a meat land sterling He's got ear buds Yeah he's got some air pods Nice You getting ready? Getting ready with the spacebar? Getting ready with the spacebar?
[02:03:35] I know I'm just I got my finger hovering over In 2019 So you know what's coming out this year Okay now You're gonna have to guess Where's this goat? I'll wait for it to go black, right? Is he gonna like Transfer him to like a plane or something?
[02:03:54] The transformer? I'll say this That is a better guess than most people make You're going off of the To super fly Which I should have paused it a second earlier But even still I'd say you're the closest I've seen anyone guess Okay Alright Ready? Yeah What the fuck?
[02:04:19] Wait what? It's always so good He's a picture What? Unburnt me right now I am speechless I am a professional opinion writer And I am speechless They got no takes on this one No takes But now? No, no, no, save the title out loud Alright
[02:04:56] Save the title out loud Spies in disguise Well But what if it's also about spies in Disguise Pointing out Thank you everybody Wait, wait, no there's one last challenge Sure, sure Will Smith, Tom Holland, Rashida Jones Karen Gillan
[02:05:11] If you had to guess who the last cast member is In this film The last, above the title Above the title cast member So Will Smith One of our most, you know sort of A venerated movie stars Danny DeVito Tom Holland on the rise
[02:05:25] Rashida, that's a solid guess You're kind of right in body shape Ready? Ready? JJ Collins Jamel Almost fell out of his chair I played myself And yes, we've all been played I think