All That Jazz with Lin-Manuel Miranda

[00:00:00] Blank Check with Griffin and David, Blank Check with Griffin and David, don't know what to say or to expect. All you need to know is that the name of the show is Blank Check.

[00:00:19] No, nothing I ever do is good enough. Not beautiful enough. It's not funny enough. It's not deep enough. It's not anything enough. Now when I see a podcast, that's perfect. I mean, that's perfect. I want to look up to God and say, how the hell did you do that? And why the hell can't I do that?

[00:00:38] You think Joe Gideon would like this show? Those guys, they're speaking to a deeper truth I can't find. Not enough ladies on this show. Complaining to the angel of death. How's his shiter? It was pretty good. Okay, right? I mean, so you did a shiter, right?

[00:00:55] Yes, yes. Tension was, you know, these are quick impressions. I don't practice the impressions. You just saw the process of me scrambling for a quote last second. It was great. And I usually try to pick one thing.

[00:01:06] And I feel like the shiter thing is he's always very, he's tightly wound. I mean, the only shiter movie we've ever covered before is Last Embrace. Oh yeah, the Demi movie. The Demi Hitchcock riff. Yeah.

[00:01:16] But I think I said in that episode, I feel like shiter just has such like his skin is so taut. You know, it's funny you say that. I think this movie was delayed because of Last Embrace. Really? Really.

[00:01:27] Yeah. Roy Shider was the guy. He had to audition for like a week. Originally it was Richard Dreyfuss. Yes. Which just imagine. I cannot see how that would work. No disrespect. Neither could anyone from the moment they committed to it. And that's why it didn't happen.

[00:01:42] Right. But that movie would have been insufferable. I think he can play a prickly, difficult person, but not like this. I mean, the shiter casting is so bizarre and you hear all the stories about like what it was.

[00:01:55] What's his name? Sammy Cohen. Right. The agent who like pushed so hard of like, I think shiter is your guy. And shiter so badly wanted to not play a cop. Right. And show he could do anything else. Right.

[00:02:06] And they like did the meeting and they were like, well, he can't really sing or dance, but you're right. He's the guy. Yeah. It was this. And we do this every week. Yeah. Right. And we just go through every line of the script.

[00:02:15] And but yeah, but Demi's he was committed to Last Embrace. Yes. So they had to wait till he was finished with that. So that's funny. That's the other one you've covered. It's not. Have you seen Last Embrace? I have not. It's not great. It's not terrible. Very fine.

[00:02:28] It has a very early Demi. Yeah. Very early Demi. It's kind of his first vaguely real movie. Like the prior ones are all like what Roger Corman movies.

[00:02:37] This is the last one where it feels like he's approaching things from a Corman standpoint of like what genre does this have to slot in? Right. It's like what's my personality? You know, and it has a Niagara Falls finale. That's its big thing.

[00:02:50] Like there's someone falling down the Niagara Falls or whatever. You know that thing where movies used to have one expensive sequence and it was the poster and the entire marketing campaign and they were like, we promise you in the last five minutes.

[00:02:59] Why is little orphan Annie hanging off a bridge? Well, that wasn't in the show. Only see one good thing. Annie hanging off the bridge is one of them because they clearly, they should have done the Statue of Liberty and they were like, ah, we can't.

[00:03:11] Everything's been, I will just do a bridge. Like a suspension bridge. Exactly. Like why isn't it a locate like a New York place? Which there are none in New York. I have the Mad Magazine spoofing Annie. It's my mom's or whatever. Humblebrag.

[00:03:26] And they really rip it for the bridge. They really like, they have like three or four jokes about the bridge. Were you a Mad Magazine kid? You feel like you were, right?

[00:03:35] Did you have my first time walking away from my home unsupervised was to go buy a Mad Magazine. It was a Super Mario was on the cover. Okay. A dollar 35. Cheap. You came in today wearing a Nintendo hat as well.

[00:03:49] Let's say you had Nintendo hat on and you have an all that jazz shirt, a Fosse shirt, a more smokey. This was our, this was our wrap gift for Fosse Burden. The Fosse Burden crew shirt, but that more smoke, please. That rules. Here's a question for you two.

[00:04:01] My, I discovered special delivery. And a bagel came in. A bagel. I got to say for the listener, the door opened and a hand, a disembodied hand. It was actually very Fosse. Just offered a bagel on a plate.

[00:04:15] An isolated hand, a bent wrist put my bagel into the room. You could almost hear the snapping under the timing of the bagel. For anyone who's ever criticized me and saying, this guy can't believe he eats bagels.

[00:04:27] I want to say today we have, we have a Tony award winner. We have a Pulitzer prize winner. Sure. A Grammy Emmy. I mean, don't, don't, don't make, you know, don't put him on the spot. He doesn't want to talk about his awards. No, I'm not, I'm not.

[00:04:43] Slowly unwrap my bagel. I just want to say he's about to eat a bagel on mic. Yeah. Despite all that. You don't have to eat directly into mic. I'm going to try to be as discreet as possible. But this is vindication for me. That's all I'm saying.

[00:04:57] You're doing great. I'm here to absolve you of your sins. We've been building to this moment. Did you guys have the experience that I felt like I had as a kid when you discover Mad Magazine, you're like, I fucking love the energy of this. I love the act.

[00:05:09] This is so funny. This is my sense of humor. I didn't know you could do this. And then the first time they parody something you like. Oh, you're like wounded by it? How dare you? You're like, come on. Right. Because their attitude was that every movie sucks. Right.

[00:05:21] Like every movie is stupid. I discovered Mad Magazine through my, it was my mom's collection. It was a big box of them. Yeah. And there was one that made fun of Return of the Jedi. Yeah.

[00:05:31] And it just, you know, has so, it really, really is nasty to it. These things were created to sell teddy bears. Exactly. And some of the points as like a seven year old, I was like, I guess I can see that. Yeah.

[00:05:45] And it was a little loss of innocence moment for me. Like, oh right. This is like a corporate product. Sure. Okay. I remember reading the ones that came out on the newsstand and then going to, I think it was my godparents house.

[00:05:56] And they had a stash of old ones. Which are better. And I remember seeing Apocalypse Now was a crock of shit now. And being like, oh my gosh. That's illegal. How did that movie make any money after that? You what?

[00:06:09] I mean, you know, we just, we just watched Lenny and recorded that yesterday. The movie that comes right before this. I just, I love the idea of doing an incredibly serious Mad Magazine biopic that's them getting arrested. Right.

[00:06:24] It's like all black and like spotlights and they're smoking and the smoke is rising. And they're like, I don't know, a crapalypse now? No, that makes no sense. Nah, a crock of shit. You get like, Timothy Chalamet's Dick DeBartolo. Someone's like, what if spy versus spy versus spy?

[00:06:43] Remember when there would be the third spy? Occasionally, the lady spy. Oh, the woman in gray. She would always get him. The woman in gray. She always got him. You were always excited when you got one of those. I was always.

[00:06:53] Dale Day Lewis just pops in at the end like, Jeff, he's late with the fold-in again. That would be incredible. He's just like this tortured artist. Fuck it, Dale Day Lewis, retired, right? Ben's good friend, Danny Day, retired.

[00:07:03] You call him up and you go, Dan, look, I know you're out of the game, but William C. Gaines. It's time. Put on the wig and be. Address me as William. Right. Fucking, what do you have? Leah Schreiber as Don Martin.

[00:07:17] I'm trying to think of all the most intense, growling actors. It's like Spotlight, but the same cast as Spotlight, but it's Mad. Spotlight, exactly. So Mad's just Don. This is the lighter side of the dentistry.

[00:07:27] Mad does, I think they do four issues a year that are mostly reprintings, and they'll do one or two new pieces. Yeah, I just remember that Return of the Jedi joke when Leia's freeing Han from Carbonite. Leia says, how could you have been in Carbonite?

[00:07:41] You did Raiders of the Lost Ark and Blade Runner in between this and Empire Strikes Back. And as a kid I was like, damn, that's a good run by Ford. I think that was my reaction to that joke. God, that's what he squeezed in in between.

[00:07:53] What a career. Anyway. Listen. Wait, did you introduce our guest? Not yet, I'm waiting. I'm so sorry. Or our podcast. No, no, you're doing everything correct. This is a podcast called Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin. I'm David.

[00:08:09] It's a podcast about filmographies, directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. And sometimes those checks clear, and sometimes they bounce. Baby. It's a miniseries on the films of Bob Fosse.

[00:08:22] It's called Pod That Jazzcast. That's right. This movie was a hit, right? I mean, a mild hit. It was a hit. Which is crazy to consider. Yeah. It is crazy to consider this as like a box office success. Yeah.

[00:08:36] You watch this movie and it's so brilliant, but you also think, well, this must have been the one that people were just like, I can't handle this.

[00:08:41] And even as you're watching it, you're thinking, does anyone who hasn't seen Plenny or read a biography of Bob Fosse understand what the fuck's going on? It's so personal.

[00:08:51] It's like he must have just been so culturally omnipresent at that point, where even if he didn't know fucking everything, you had enough of a sense of who the guy was making this movie that you understood what he was riffing on. But it is, yeah, it's bizarre. Yeah.

[00:09:05] It's bizarre. It's quietly one of the blank checkiest movies ever made. It is. It's not the biggest check ever written. It is the biggest check ever written. You think so? Yeah. Like just in terms of creativity. Creatively. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:09:18] There are bigger financial checks, but in terms of going into a studio and being like, I want to make a musical about my death and how much I suck. About the heart attack I just had, essentially. Yeah. Right.

[00:09:26] And also the insane thing with this movie where the budget runs over and another studio comes on and is like, goddammit, fine, fuck it. What are we gonna do? All of it. It's two blank checks. It's two blank checks really. Yeah. Sort of overlapping checks.

[00:09:37] And didn't he in the process also like renegotiate to get the rights back to the movie or something crazy? I don't know. Look, today we're talking about all that jazz.

[00:09:44] Now I want to say, and I'm not going to harp on it, when we emailed you about doing this episode, and our guest today by the way, because this is a movie podcast, I don't even know, so I'm going to list a couple movie credits. Sure.

[00:09:57] Wrote the songs for Moana, a film we love, covered on this podcast. That's true. And Kanto, little movie with a couple songs that have stuck around in the public consciousness. Director of Tick, Tick, Boom. Great movie.

[00:10:07] And this isn't a theater podcast, but I did see on your Wikipedia that you created, wrote, and starred in a play called Hamilton. There's a few other shows. That was a thing I did notice. Lin-Manuel Miranda is inexplicably on the podcast. Long time fan. First time caller. Bizarre.

[00:10:22] Thank you for coming. Bizarre, bizarre, bizarre, and dare I say it, dumb. Dumb. Dumb. One of the least impressive things about you. Being on this show? Absolutely, absolutely. Dragging you down. Thank you for wasting a little bit of your cache. And time. And time, absolutely.

[00:10:40] What was the thing I was going to say? You were complaining about the miniseries title. Thank you, thank you. You're welcome. Of course he has to do this, right? And in the subject, I have to do it, I have to do it. Just do it quickly.

[00:10:50] In the subject heading, I say, pod that jazz cast, parentheses, working title. And then we start the thread with your assistance. You're one of the busiest people in the world to figure out a time to do this, right?

[00:11:01] When it comes time to start recording these episodes, I go, I want to call it pod that cast. Yeah, he wanted to do that. With Zs. With Zs. Right, he was overruled. And the argument was, you already put it in the email. Oh, that's not binding. I agree!

[00:11:20] It's not binding. I think pod that jazz cast is great. A private email to me is not binding for what you... Agree. ...face the world with. We can disagree with pod that cast on creative grounds. It feels vaguely medicinal to me. I think of NyQuil.

[00:11:34] I think that's a good call. Also, if you take... Cast may cause intestinal distress. It just makes it sleepier than it is. If you take the spaces out between the words pod that cast sounds like... The problem with pod that cast... ...is some psychotropic medication.

[00:11:49] As we've also discussed, you can't sell it on Mike to the extent that people definitely know what it is. Yeah, you can't. Listen, pod that cast... There's something about when you say it, I hear crickets. Pod that jazz cast. Right, you just hear a microphone going...

[00:12:00] Those aren't crickets, those are snaps. Those are jazz snaps. No, no. Pod that cast. It's pod that jazz cast. We're talking all that jazz. It's pod that jazz cast. It's the notes the title isn't playing. Thank you! It's a real... It's a Damon Wayans miniseries title.

[00:12:16] It's a jazz title. It's a jazz set. It's a jazz set. I think this is his best movie. I think this is his best movie. I think it's one of the better movies we've covered on the podcast. I agree. I agree.

[00:12:26] Linnea, do you think this is Bob Fosse's best movie over Cabaret? I don't know. I think this and Cabaret are... It's difficult because Cabaret is such a total package entertainment... ...game-changing piece. Whereas this is so personal and it's hard to just recommend to someone. It is.

[00:12:43] I'm not just going to tell any random friend, like, Oh, throw in all those guys you love. I think if you say to a friend, I think you'd really like this. Your friend, whether they love it or hate it, might be like, Why do you think of me?

[00:12:53] Why do you put this upon me? What about this said me? And I don't know how to feel about that. Maybe if you're trying to quit smoking. But then this also is kind of a pro-smoking movie somehow too because he looks so damn good smoking.

[00:13:10] But man, as someone who's currently trying to quit, this really hit for me. Did you fake smoke when you did Fosse Verdon? No, it didn't require... Oh, actually, wait a minute. You do the final number.

[00:13:23] I do the final number, but then I also did the dances with the daughter. Right. Oh, right. No, I don't think I'm smoking in that either. He doesn't have a dangler. He doesn't have a dangling cigarette.

[00:13:35] No ash on his daughter's head while he's putting her to Pad Baret. But for me, Cabaret gets the slight edge only because it also has an all-time great Kander and Ebb score on top of it. Sure, sure.

[00:13:48] Whereas this is like, what are the songs I can get that tell my story? Yeah. I don't think there's any songs in this that are really transcendent. Although there are sequences that are. The numbers are. Right, right. Yeah, yeah, but no, that's true.

[00:14:01] But it doesn't have, you know... I mean, I listen to Bye Bye Life a lot. Yeah. I do. Like as a standalone track, obviously as a sequence, it's like brr-brr-brr shit. Oh, absolutely.

[00:14:12] But his best movie, yeah, it's obviously I feel like it comes down to Cabaret or this. And this I give the edge just, we were talking about Fury Road right before this, but that thing where you're just like, I can't believe this fucking exists. Absolutely.

[00:14:24] It gets the bump of like, I can't believe it exists and it's good. At best you think it exists and you watch it and you're like, it's a curio, it's interesting they tried to do this, but it's not very fun.

[00:14:34] You know, this movie was successful, respect at the time, has aged well. When did you first see it? Like what's your Fosse journey? Way too young. I'm someone who... 35 is a little young to see this movie, honestly, I'll say.

[00:14:49] I had to have been a teenager and I think a lot of it went over my head, but I have a crowd pleaser dad and an art house mom. Like every weekend with my dad was a Seagal movie,

[00:15:01] a musical or like a Van Damme movie and like billiards. That's what we did. And then like my mom, I think showed me Last Tango in Paris when I was like 10. And like I definitely do the right thing when I like all of that stuff

[00:15:14] before I was a teenager. Okay. And so I think I was probably around 12, 13 and a lot of it just went over my head. Had you seen like Cabaret at that point or you'd seen other Fosse stuff? Probably, I'd probably seen Cabaret. Right. Yeah.

[00:15:28] I feel like I've heard you talk about there being a lot of like original cast recordings in the home that you would listen to shows on record. Yeah. Anything Liza, um, like Liza and Barbara Streisand and Julie Andrews and Debbie Reynolds were like

[00:15:42] the alters my dad worships at. I don't know what it is. I think he just loves a bootstrap narrative. Like he was a little kid in Puerto Rico was like, I'm getting out of here. So like his favorite movie is the unsinkable Molly Brown,

[00:15:54] which is not a good movie. It's watchable. It's absolutely watchable because of her. There's a 50 minute stretch where there's no songs in it. Cause it's like not sure. But the sequences in it are really good, but it was like required viewing.

[00:16:09] Is he like a militant Star Wars fan when he's watching Titanic? He's like, that's not my Molly Brown. Molly Brown wasn't like that. Yeah. Oh, that's the first thing he said. This is portraying the character of Obi-Wan. Was like, that wasn't Debbie Reynolds. Yeah. It's not Debbie Reynolds.

[00:16:23] Yeah. But, um, I definitely saw this when I was too young to get it. And then kind of re you, you rewatch it and you go, oh my God. But you know, you talk about his cultural footprint. Like this is a guy who won a Tony,

[00:16:34] an Emmy and an Oscar in the same year and all for different projects. This is not the like. For directing every time too. Not, not, there's no jokey like award there. Yeah. It's it's cabaret lies with Z and uh, right.

[00:16:51] Cause I think Tony for Pippin and then he additionally gets choreography, Tony and Emmy for Liza. Like he, he wins all three for directing and two choreographies on top of that. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, it's, it's pretty wild, but I, yeah, I don't know how you,

[00:17:07] we were talking about Dreyfus in the beginning and when Dreyfus didn't work out or they just both were like, this is not going to work. Um, he said, I'll play it. And he said to a screenwriter, you must support me in this. And screenwriter did.

[00:17:22] And the producer was like, there is no fucking way you can write a movie direct in it, produce it, star and starring in your condition. It was a non starter. It was one of my favorite scenes in Fosse Verden is in that sequence where

[00:17:37] you playing Scheider playing Joe Gideon say like, Bob, you should do it. Like try the number because I do feel like it's such a running thread that like Bob Fosse was defined by the fact that he so badly wanted to be a movie star, a musical leading man.

[00:17:52] Right. And it feels like we keep on hearing these stories where he's like, Oh God, our hands are tied. I guess I have to play the MC and everyone's like, no, you don't. There's a good guy. We got him.

[00:18:02] He kept on sort of trying to accidentally rig it where people would be like, I guess there's only. And you look through the list and all the people they were sort of considering for this were just like all the biggest leading men of the

[00:18:12] seventies, you know, like Dreyfus makes sense as the most sort of neurotic leading man of that period. Had he just won an Oscar? Like, is that why he's maybe right. You see the crazy names of like, is it Hackman? Is it this?

[00:18:26] They apparently offered it to Beatty and Beatty said, I'll do it if he doesn't die at the end. And he's like, that's the movie. What are you talking about? He gets the girls. But like all of those other guys you go like that wouldn't have worked.

[00:18:38] You almost feel like who could have actually played this part and Schreider on paper seems like it wouldn't make sense. Absolutely. But there's something so fucking magical about him in this. Yeah, there is. I love him in this movie so much.

[00:18:50] I watched, uh, I watched this again last night with commentary and it's what's his name? Allenheim, the editor. Okay. And he just kept on saying like, yeah, Scheider, Scheider couldn't dance. He's got a terrible sense of rhythm. Bob worked with him every day, but he just,

[00:19:03] he innately doesn't have rhythm and does every time, especially in the final number, he was like, I mean, if you're really, I cut around it, but if you're looking at it, he's so fucking off. He just kept on underlining like Roy really can't pull this off. Wow.

[00:19:16] But you like, that's funny. He sells it on confidence and charm. You know, Dreyfuss, I don't know if you remember this one, but like he was supposed to be in the producers on the West end years ago

[00:19:26] in like, I guess when it was launching on the West end and he dropped out at the last minute. It was like very, a very shocking thing. I think Nathan Lane actually was like spirited over. Was it Jason Alexander in him?

[00:19:38] Fuck, I have to look it up now. It was one. Yeah. He dropped out like a week before. It's funny how it's like he's, and I think it was, he couldn't do the dancing. Right. And it was like a last minute thing of like,

[00:19:48] this actually isn't going to work. It sounds like that's also what this came down to here where they were just like, this is never going to be solved. Yeah. Four days. Oh my God. Yeah. I mean like it's, it's really weird. Yeah. They brought in Nathan Lane.

[00:20:02] It was him and Lee Evans. Yes. Lee Evans. Okay. Who was like a British comedian guy. Right. But anyway, like, it's just funny that the book ends with that. Like Dreyfuss, they, they worked with him. They were, they were, I mean, the thing I have,

[00:20:14] it's from the Wasson book in my, in my notes is just like immediately you could smell disaster is how they put it. Right. When, when Dreyfuss is like running them steps with them. And also, you know, notoriously a prickly guy.

[00:20:28] Like I think Fosse doesn't need someone else who is a neurotic mess over obsessing over everything. There's something about Scheider just probably being something of a pro and also really, really being eager to show something different. Right.

[00:20:41] But it's fascinating that like as much as I feel like this becomes his best performance, you know, maybe not as most iconic cause of jaws and everything. This becomes like his high watermark as an actor. He doesn't really get to do anything like this ever again.

[00:20:55] He pretty much just goes back to like, he does this movie, gets the Oscar nomination, everyone applauds him. And he's like, okay, I'll pick up the badge and the gun again. Yeah. And he does another 15 years of this.

[00:21:03] There's something to be said for when you're doing a musical, getting an actor who isn't really known for musical. I just went through it with Andrew on, on tick tick boom. And, but they have to have some kind of innate musicality for it to work.

[00:21:17] Like Andrew was a fine singer who got told when he was like six, you're a bad singer. So he just never pursued it. Okay. But when we were going through singing lessons and, and all of the sort of prep for him, he was great. It was just like,

[00:21:31] it was just like rusty water in a faucet and then the clear water came right very quickly. Cause I remember that being the beat on it was like, well, Andrew Garfield, like that's very demanding. He's not gonna be able to sing.

[00:21:41] And then like two minutes into the movie, you're like, well, this is fine. Like, I don't know what anyone was worried about. Did he do his own piano playing? What I said to him was, I need to be able to pan from your fingers to your face,

[00:21:53] like three times at the beginning so we can sell that you're playing piano. And then don't worry. And then don't worry about it. So it's, he needs to learn the opening riff of 3090, the opening riff of why the song he sings at the Delacorte.

[00:22:03] And I forget like one other song, but I just said like, worry about these three little pieces. So the rest of the time is he just like, cause that's what I would say. But you know what? He also would watch our rehearsal pianist so that he would like,

[00:22:14] and that's something I'm such a, I hate when you see bands in movies and they're just doing something that has nothing to do with what you're hearing. So I, so I would, I'm the stickler for that.

[00:22:25] It's like that and like empty coffee cups being carried around like the waitlist are like the two bugaboos I have. And there's one of those in In the Heights that drives me fucking crazy. It's a coffee cup. Yeah, there's one coffee cup where I was like,

[00:22:38] I wasn't on set cause there's so much deli stuff. There's so much bodega material. When you're handing over your cups, I feel like they have proper weight in them. Your actual performance in the movie. You clearly had control over that.

[00:22:50] Yeah. But, but I would always check in with like, cause Andrew is such an incredible actor. The only notes I would give him in some of those sequences was like, look down occasionally to make sure you're in the technical adjustment. Like literally like look down at your keys,

[00:23:03] make sure you're changing, you're doing a key change. You're going to look down at the piano. I feel like the thing, I mean this is an unfair stereotype, but this is the thing everyone's like, all the Brits can sing a little and dance a little, right?

[00:23:12] Like they've all got a little bit of that, right? You sort of have to do the foundation of a little bit of everything. Right. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe not with Andrew though. Cause like, I don't know if, did Andrew do like Rada or one of those things?

[00:23:22] Like was he one of them? Yeah, he went to drama school and someone told him you can't say, like must have. You know, a hundred percent. Like don't bother. For him to have come this far and never even like done a school play where he had to sing.

[00:23:34] That is surprising. Very weird. Yeah, you would think. Right. I just, I remember it's the one that like stuck in my head of what you're talking about on the behind the scenes of Josie and the Pussycats, the movie.

[00:23:45] They were talking about how proud they were that they did like fucking three months of instrument rehearsal. Right. And who was it? Biff Naked, I think? No. Am I wrong? Who's the band who wrote the, I mean, it's obviously the Fountains of Wayne Schlesinger.

[00:23:59] But then I forget who the band is that did the songs and did the singing voice. But they, they did like three months of instrument rehearsal and there's behind the scenes footage of them going like, look, see, we can play it ourselves.

[00:24:12] And they play it and it sounds fucking terrible. But they actually knew what they were playing. So when they dub it over with a professional playing, it looks correct. Right. Which is all you need. That's all you need.

[00:24:24] And I had the band that recorded the tracks is the band I have on stage with them too. So like that's all accurate. Okay. You know, like I'm just, it drives me crazy when I see someone going like this on a bass and no bass is playing.

[00:24:35] This is a question I have. Like every Elvis movie. They shot those things in like four days. The Elvis movies? Yeah. They shot Elvis movies on lunch breaks during other Elvis movies. I watched Fosse Verdon fairly recently, which I had somehow missed when it came out,

[00:24:54] despite being like a Fosse fanatic. When we knew we were doing this mini series. And there's the episode that's focused on that year. Fosse's insane triple crown. Yeah. He's there and Patty's next to him and they're miserable in the limo. Right. He's losing his fucking mind.

[00:25:08] The year ends with him having a physical and mental breakdown. Right. And then his second big sort of hot streak period is the Chicago Lenny same year, which ends with him having the heart attack or doesn't even end. It's interrupted by the heart attack.

[00:25:21] So he had these like two kind of massive years, not only but two years where it was like multiple plates spinning, everything working. He's at the center of like high culture in America and he's fucking miserable

[00:25:35] and he can't handle it and he's self-destructing and his body is exploding. None of it fixes the hole inside him. Right. Absolutely. Right. And you seem like an infinitely more well adjusted man who does not have this romanticism of the tortured artist kind of thing. Right. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:25:52] You are an example of a person who has had that kind of year. Yeah. Right. More than once. But like that very rarely do people get to go to that echelon of just like you become this sort of looming figure of like everything you do is suddenly

[00:26:10] given new importance. And you have always struck me as a guy who like handles that incredibly well, like have seen excited by the opportunities that come out of it and are able to handle the responsibility of like you have to occasionally be like a spokesperson for America.

[00:26:28] You know, like truly people go like, Liam we need you to help sell the idea that our country isn't collapsing. Yeah, that's a tough sale. Right. That's become, yeah. Do you ever just like stare at a wall and go like this is fucking exhausting

[00:26:42] or do you just have more energy than most people? No. Well, I mean there's a couple of things in that question I have to unpack. First of all, there's like the year right? Like for me, the closest thing to that year that I experienced was the Hamilton year.

[00:26:55] And what kept me sane was doing the show. Sure. You can't party like Fosse partied and do seven shows a week. And like I would die. I would die so fast. It would be, I'm not throwing away. And then I would fall into the orchestra pit. Um,

[00:27:12] and so you know that was the show weirdly was my saving grace because the offers and the attention and the internet is coming to the show every night. Like every night is a different bold faced name and it's that part's really crazy.

[00:27:26] But the show is really hard to do. It's two and a half hours and I don't leave the stage. So weirdly that became like the moment of Zen. And then I think the other thing was like I was kind of a grownup by the time that happened.

[00:27:39] Like I was one of those. My son was born two weeks before rehearsal started. Sure. And so I was, that's crazy. How did you do that as someone with a young child? Doesn't seem possible. I mean he was born and I hadn't written the last fucking duel yet.

[00:27:52] So I was, I was up and I was just responsible for a couple of the night feedings and I was up writing the ending anyway. And then we, you know, to be honest, like leaned on our,

[00:28:03] like my parents took our kid like every night before a two show day because if I didn't have a full night of sleep, I didn't have enough voice for two shows. A hundred percent. And so it was like one night a week.

[00:28:15] Like that kid was just like at my parents house. It's good. They live nearby and my wife was still working at a law firm. Like it was fucking crazy. But you're like, I mean I, you can't say this about yourself,

[00:28:28] but you strike me as someone who just has exceptionally good time management focus. Am I wrong about that? I'm a super procrastinator. The deadline stuff is the stuff in all that jazz that speaks to me. Sure. Wow.

[00:28:42] The most like I have really stranded casts who are going to sing for an audience of friends. Like they will get the final number the morning they are singing it to those. Like I remember the morning writing the last song of Hamilton and thank God

[00:28:56] Pippa Sue learns like sight reads and learns really fast. Like that scene of like, can you sight read in tick, tick boom. I've lived that many times. Look, I'm not trying to equate this accomplishment to Hamilton. I want to make it very clear.

[00:29:09] I'm not putting this accomplishment on the same level as Hamilton. I don't know what you're saying, but I went to a wedding last week and my buddy Andrew Taven 10 minutes morning. He comes up to me and he's like, what do you want to make a speech?

[00:29:22] And I was like, you didn't ask anyone in advance and he's like, I forgot if one of the groomsmen should make a speech. And I was like, okay. And I took out my phone. I jot stuff down. I got an applause break. You got an applause break.

[00:29:33] And people kept on coming up to me and they were just proud. I'm sure. Although it was a destination wedding, so people are a little tired. Yeah. And, and, and people were like, how did you write that speech in 10 minutes? And I was like,

[00:29:46] if I had been given a month's notice, it would have been worse. Well, if you'd been given a month's notice, you would have written it the night before anyway. I mean, that, that, that would be my reality. And it also still would have been worse. Right. Yeah.

[00:29:59] The fact that it was like that amount of pressure, I mean, I pulled six threads of knowing this guy for 12 years into one moment. Right. And look, once again, I'm not equating it, but I have heard there is interest in adapting the wedding speech to Broadway. Amazing.

[00:30:10] So I might, it might be my Hamilton. You're out of town. You start out of town. Yeah, you maybe, where's a good place to start? You like Toronto or San Diego? I don't know. Yeah. Obviously,

[00:30:21] like Fosse is a figure that you clearly are like in conversation with in your career. Well, I think that Tom, it's funny because, I just read the books. Sam Watson is a friend of mine. He went to Wesleyan and I used to play piano for his improv group.

[00:30:35] Like I was like the Richard Fraunsch on piano for their like group. And, uh, and so that's how I knew him. And then when I read the book, I was like, oh, I didn't know you could do this. Like, like, like,

[00:30:49] it's like learning your friend can like juggle chains. Like, right. Oh, I didn't know you could write like this. Sure. And to me, the, the, the, the book where the, the it's all 60 years left, 45 years left. That's how the chapters are broken down.

[00:31:04] Which is such a stroke of genius given who he's talking about and how they saw, uh, the world. Um, but I think Tommy was attracted into making that because Tommy is like the anti Fosse. Like he is just such a, like,

[00:31:20] I want to talk to you all until we're all making the same thing. And I want to like, you know, he's just like, he's not, he's not like a dictator. Cause like every story you read about Fosse, you're like, I understand the man was a genius,

[00:31:32] but how did anyone put up with this? What a pain. It seems like kind of earnestly puts forth like, yes, I need to fuck you to make you a better dancer. I need to understand your body. Like that was the, like, that was the come on line.

[00:31:46] And it's like, put up with a bull. And then you watch all that jazz and you're like, Oh, this guy completely knows how full of shit and annoying he is. Yeah. And yet he's also this great artist that I can't really, you know,

[00:32:00] good time to tell you what I brought. Tell me what your problem is. You said you brought something. I brought some goodies. Um, I called Sam, uh, just before, like a week ago saying, I'm going to go beyond blank check and talk about all that jazz.

[00:32:14] Anything not in the book that you want. And he said everything I know, he texted me back, goes everything I know is in the book and goes, Oh, but I have the original draft. I'm going to send that to you. So I have this original draft. Wow.

[00:32:27] Fosse's original draft. I took some screen grabs. It's 146 pages. That's interesting. Right. Sure. The crazy thing about the draft is, uh, he didn't change any of the names in the original draft. So it's not John Lithgow's fictional other director. It just says how Prince. Right.

[00:32:45] And what was it? Joe Gideon says candor and ebb in the thing. And there's another story I have to tell you on top of that, but like, and there's all these scenes with Patty and Herb Gardner that didn't make. Oh,

[00:32:57] all the cut scenes are him talking to his friends and his friends calling him out on his bullshit. Right. But, but is a thing that accidentally I think is it helps this movie is that the guy is friendless. Yeah, that's right.

[00:33:09] But in real life that was his crew. Yes. It was Herb Gardner, Patty Chayefsky, and they would like all get drinks and, and just, they were like the creative, uh, club. And so I'm going to, I'm going to read you some of these cut Patty tunes, uh, tunes.

[00:33:23] Um, you have to sing them. Yeah. There's a Bob smoking with a drink in his hand. He's looking at, uh, the Lenny movie and he goes, maybe we can get away with it. Herbie says, Bob's afraid if he ever said anything optimistic, God would strike him dead.

[00:33:40] There was one little, that does make sense. Yes. Then here's another thing. Uh, Patty such bullshit. It won't be bullshit if he drops dead. And Patty says, maybe Fosse thinks the only way people will take him seriously is by dying. Right. Herbie,

[00:33:57] but do we have to keep reminding him all the time? Do we have to tell him what a son of a bitch he is? Do we have to tell him how miserable he behaves to women? Patty, Herbie to Fosse. That's approval. Again, none of the names are changed.

[00:34:10] Right. Yeah. Fosse. Yeah. That's approved. There is no Joe Gideon in his draft. Right. That's wild. It's Gwen. Yeah. It's his daughter. Yeah. What's so funny is in that, in that content, uh, the commentary Allenheim says, like when they were cutting, he'd go like,

[00:34:28] do you think we should hold on you for this long in the scene? And Fosse would be like, that's not me. That's Joe Gideon. Yeah. Like he was prickly about it. He was like, come on, just fucking let, why are we wasting time? Right.

[00:34:41] Let's get the short hand. Even the first draft was like Bob Fosse. A hundred percent Bob Fosse. Here's the one that made me want to bring it up at this point. Herbie. Um, so, Gideon Fosse is saying, but I'm despicable, untrustworthy, disloyal, worthless. Herbie interrupting. Listen to that.

[00:34:58] He thinks he absolved himself simply by listing his crimes. Right. Bob, the biggest con of all honesty, Patty, which does not deny the truth of the fact that you are despicable, untrustworthy, disloyal, worthless. But that's, that's right. He's like, yeah, he's like, if I say it,

[00:35:16] there's the self-awareness. Call me on it. But it's like, if he's alive at the end of the movie, then it, you know, people are walking out and they're like, it's almost like, well, his reign of terror will never end. The death that makes it more poetic. It's like,

[00:35:28] right. Of course. Like this guy was just a tight rope walk. But there is this element to this movie. I mean, as opposed to like, I feel like you certainly see it a lot with comedians, right? Where they like do the work that's like,

[00:35:37] I'm putting myself on the fucking slab. I'm exposing my words and all, but it feels a little masturbatory still. Cause it's like, I want you to approve of me hating myself. Yeah. It's comedy. It's absolutely honed. Like they thought exactly about it. If you laugh at it,

[00:35:52] it sort of takes the burden off of me. I'm like, I made this entertaining. So now you can't be mad at me. And this movie, he keeps on showing such a self-awareness for what a piece of shit he is. And then people are like, the fact that,

[00:36:02] you know, doesn't excuse it. That doesn't make it cute or charming. I mean, but it does kind of cause it's a movie and you're like, holy shit. Is when they do the, uh, what is it? Uh, take off, uh, with me. And at the end of the number,

[00:36:18] the, the Verden, uh, stand in character is crying. She's like, you fucking asshole. It's the best thing you've ever done. Like people are infuriated that he continues to do good work because it's like, you're going to fucking be able to justify your bullshit. Yeah. I mean,

[00:36:34] he starts thinking about this after he has this massive coronary event, right? Like he's doing, which is what the movie is about, right? He's doing Lenny and Chicago at the same time. Basically he has this heart attack. And then he said like for about a month,

[00:36:45] he behaved himself like no smoking, no making passes at the nurses. And then after a month it's like, uh, you know, now, you know, he went right back to that. Like you live suddenly you're back to the old thing, smoking, drinking, being dishonest in relationships.

[00:37:01] So he's like aware that like I am uncurable. I literally faced death and it was like, you know, what am I supposed to do? I saw some anecdote where like the producers, the executives would be like, Bob, we took a physical,

[00:37:12] there's like a life insurance policy on you. You have to cut down on the smoking. He's like, I did cut down five packs a day. Like that was his concession was like, I went from 10 to five. You should be happy. Well, the doctor,

[00:37:23] the scene with the doctor in the movie, like it's like, I mean, it's really funny, but it's also like a look into just how people looked at health in those days. Yeah. The doctor's got a dangler from his lip. And he's like listening to his lungs while coughing.

[00:37:42] You're not going to hear anything. Yes. Gwen Verdon, this is a quote from a different book, but Gwen Verdon said, I think the real reason I was never jealous of other women is I knew his real affair was with death. Yeah. And when death is Jessica Lange. Yeah.

[00:37:57] Jessica Lange. Does the whole, I was, I was, I saw, I rewatched this movie with my buddy Alex Horowitz, who's a filmmaker on Wednesday night and, and we were discussing whether the death thing still plays. Is that just Fellini? Is it a little too corny? Right. Yeah.

[00:38:15] Does that still play for you? It does because it's kind of funny, which I think the movie knows. I think that's how it gets away with it. It's funny that, I mean, this is right at the start of her career, right?

[00:38:26] That she's only been in King Kong before. Like she's still like luminous Jessica Lange where everyone's like, what a babe. Like here's the new Faye Ray. She's just ethereal beauty. Exactly. Like we, who even knows if she can act. She's just so luminous.

[00:38:38] So I like that she's being deployed that way. Yeah. Like the original draft, the death scenes take the place of the cut Patty herb scenes. So basically he calls the conversation and then the conversations where he

[00:38:50] calls himself out for being a piece of shit and her being like Joe, you rascal. Right. He basically replaced his friends with death. I think, uh, I mean, what a statement. Um, but yeah, I think it works once again because of the ending.

[00:39:06] Like all of this would be a little too precious, a little too clever by half. If it wasn't committed to like 40 minutes on the operating table, death Fantasia ending with the thing. It's truly is the moment that just like moves the film into a different echelon is, uh,

[00:39:24] when Ben Vereen repurposes his introduction speech, that final number. So incredible, right? It's one of the greatest movie endings ever. It's Sammy Davis in the script, by the way. Really? That's fascinating. Explicitly. Wow. Of course he's in sweet charity. I mean, that's really funny. Yeah.

[00:39:43] That would be funny. But that thing where it's just this brutal, like this guy's a piece of shit. He's nobody's friend. Right. You know, it's like at that point I feel like the movies kind of earned all of it. He literally, I mean, it's, it's Felini's cinematographer, right?

[00:39:57] Uh, yeah. I want to ask about the script is the, um, Giuseppe Rettuno is the name of the photographer. Um, is the, uh, TV movie critic in the script. Is that a person? Yeah. I wonder who that was. That must be someone who did that. Yeah.

[00:40:11] I didn't get a screen grab of that, but yeah, it is probably the real name of the WWOR critic. Exactly right. Whoever was doing that at the time. It's probably like Pat Carroll or some mean lady. Yeah. Um, I didn't know. I'm reading,

[00:40:25] I'm reading the Fossier right now. Um, I didn't. A researcher has renamed the research dossier, the Fossier. Yeah. Of course. How many points to JJ? Right. Snaps with a wrist curls.

[00:40:37] I knew that Chicago lost the Tony to a chorus line because the chorus line was like the juggernaut. Yeah. A hundred percent. And, but I, what I did not know, I guess is that Verdon obviously was playing, she was playing Roxy Hart, right? Yeah. But,

[00:40:53] and then she had an injury and Liza Minnelli subbed in for her. Right. I guess I forgot about this and that actually saved the show apparently like that became, right. It became like a box office hit. Yeah. And they didn't advertise it. It was one of those words.

[00:41:04] Right. Because they were trying to be nice. Yeah, they were trying to be nice. And of course everyone's like, Hey, Liza Minnelli is in a Broadway show right now. Right. But it was also the whole weird conflict of interest with her where it's like,

[00:41:13] this is the part I want to play forever. But also the larger goal is I want to have a stake in a show that I helped create. Yes. Right. To be a cushion for my daughter.

[00:41:23] So it's like if Liza taking the role keeps the show running and moves into profit and gets it touring, even if she's taking my glory away. Right. And then that being the star of the cabaret movie and like, and by the way,

[00:41:35] like that show being so wildly ahead of its time. Yeah. Yes. You know, like yes it's up against chorus line, which was like a juggernaut. Sure, big financial mash. Like it was to 1975 what Hamilton was in like 20, like just like, It was. It was the conversation. Right.

[00:41:52] But also like no one was ready for it. Everyone was like, oh, like and then, It's too dark. And then like, like the New York City Chorus did the city center revival and it was like in the middle of the OJ trial. And I was like,

[00:42:04] this is actually very quaint compared to what we're seeing like on TV while we're watching a trial on TV every day. It's also so funny that I feel like if the movie hadn't come out, that revival probably would have closed within like two years.

[00:42:16] It would have been like, and this was a healthy ass run. And instead it's now the second longest running musical ever. I think it's only behind Phantom. It outran chorus line by a lot. It did. It beat chorus line by a lot. It's funny to laugh. Yeah.

[00:42:29] Is it still on? It's, yeah. It's still on. Like never going to close. Pamela Anderson was just in it. Every six months another insane person is playing one of the roles. You know, I always wonder about that. Alan Dershowitz is playing Mr. Sellers.

[00:42:41] I have a friend who was just Billy Flynn. So maybe I can answer your question. What are you wondering? Oh, James Monroe. Yeah. No, that's the thing. It's like, I always, whenever I see that there's been some piece of stunt casting, no offense to Pamela Anderson or whoever,

[00:42:55] whatever. But the line from the dancers is we have three tracks. We have like, can really do the part. Right. Yeah. Can sing but moves. Yeah. And like the no fucking idea. And they just have like what they do accordingly depending on the three levels that come in.

[00:43:13] Right. That's just what I, you know, it must be so strange. And like the West End, I grew up in New England. Everyone I hear Pam is in the second category. Like she can sing it and she can move. Yeah. Right. She's a professional. Yeah. And I'm like,

[00:43:26] I'm not gonna be like this one's actually good. Cause there was in the West End Denise Van, Denise Van Outen who is like, was a morning TV host, did it on London. But then she moved to Broadway and I was like,

[00:43:36] she must have actually been pretty good for that to happen. Right. Cause she's nobody here. Like, yeah. Wait, I'm sorry. Just how would you know that? She hosted a show called The Big Breakfast. I used to watch it all the time. Denise Van Outen, shout out.

[00:43:50] Does your family have some incredibly expensive satellite package? Did you have a sling TV that feels like the technology was, that's what I'm saying. I'm confused. In what way would you have access? I grew up in England, my friend. Yeah. I grew up in London. That is insane.

[00:44:02] Um, some context on this movie. Yes. Obviously initially they were trying to adapt this novel ending by Hilma Walitzer. Okay. That was actually the initial genesis of it. And the option eventually expires and it just turns into Bob Fosse. The, the movie, right? Like, okay.

[00:44:22] Initially it was actually not going, it was not going to be an adaptation. What was the novel? It's called ending. It's a similar thing. It's like a memoir about death. Like, um, was it also about a chain smoking Broadway choreographer? No, I don't think so.

[00:44:36] Walitzer was very confused because Walitzer is like my characters are not Fosse-esque at all. They're very ordinary middle-class characters. And he brings in, um, what's the name? Robert Arthur, Robert Allen Arthur, and they start working on it and then eventually just turns into all that jazz. Into,

[00:44:53] you know, Bob Fosse movie. And it moves from Paramount to Columbia. Fred Ebb gives his blessing to call it all that jazz, I guess, because it's his song that they're naming it after.

[00:45:04] It's kind of incredible how cynical the use of the title is in this movie that it's Vreen at the end saying like life, love, works, relationship, all that jazz. Like your whole fucking stupid life that we're about to end. Right. Since we've just mentioned Fred Ebb,

[00:45:18] I would like to interject with another section from the original script because the songwriting team in the script, it's just Kander and Ebb. Right. So here's the scene with Ebb and Prince when they're eating and they're telling him that, you know, Fosse's had a heart attack. Um, Ebb,

[00:45:35] marvelous cast. And now we've got to sit around four months, maybe even lose them. I'll have the luncheon steak. Prince to waiter, chef salad for me. I can see where it would be difficult to hold them together. Ebb to waiter and tea with lemon.

[00:45:47] Then to Prince all because he didn't take care of himself and that goddamn movie. So wait, there's, there's more. Go on. Go on. So I, uh, I texted this to the homie, John Kander, who is the nicest man in show business.

[00:46:02] You are truly the only person who can get away with saying that. He's really the first composer I met when he like saw Heights like first. He was sort of the Sondheim to your Tic Tac Boom. He truly is. He's in his mid nineties, right? He's still amazing.

[00:46:17] He's going to have a show like very soon. He has another show. Like he just has never stopped writing. So I texted him and I wrote over here, reading Bob's original draft of all that jazz. Uh,

[00:46:28] an old Bobby just forgot to change anyone's names on the first draft. And I put an eye emoji and then he texted me back. Wow. Even more complicated than it appears. Bob implied to Fred that he was actually writing about Stephen Schwartz. And then he wrote,

[00:46:45] we are all cowards. Three exclamation points. Wow. That's from the homie, John Kander. So it's after the movie came out, he was like, no, it's not you. Or before when he asked for permission for all that jazz for the title. Yeah. He didn't want to be right.

[00:47:02] Then make you look so insane and neurotic. Right. That's fine. I mean, Chicago only opened. So he had some decorum or whatever. Some sense of shame. I was obviously, you know, uh, good at getting what he wanted out of people. Right. It's just so many stories.

[00:47:19] You feel like he's, he's, he badgers. He's such a force of personality. Like that's how he achieves these things. Right. To go back a little to the Jessica Lange thing. Do you guys know the famous anecdote about like, so, you know, you have to talk about extensively, uh,

[00:47:35] across as many series, how much Bob Fosse loves having sex with anyone. Isn't his wife. Sure. Anyone, any, any, uh, pretty young. You get a sense of how they move. Of course. Absolutely. Uh, and there's, I, I, the story I remember hearing is that, uh, you know,

[00:47:55] he was just like, I haven't gone through to laying yet. You know, I can't, I can't crack her. You know, and he says to his friends at some point, he's like, I have to pull out the big move. And they're like, what's the big move Bob.

[00:48:06] And he's like, I really try to save it for if, if the woman's really, you know, I'm like, if I dance for a woman, then it's game over. Right. I'm going to dance for her. I'm going to put on a performance.

[00:48:17] So they're like doing a rehearsal session or whatever. Right. Probably in his fucking apartment, like a creep. And then he's like, you know, Jessica, could I do a little dance for you? And he does his soft show. And he's like waiting for her to melt. And she's like,

[00:48:31] oh wow. Yeah, that's good. No, my boyfriend was talking to me about, and she, he realizes, oh, I did this for the one person. Right. Who will not be impressed. Not that impressed by dancing. Yes. Fucking meaningless. It's absolutely right. She was in the middle of,

[00:48:47] she was just like, that's it because my boyfriend does it differently. Right, right, right. That is really amazing. Isn't that so good? Just not even clocking it. Yeah. Right. Just absolutely. She's like, good form. You know, he does this thing. The greatest dancer who ever lived.

[00:49:03] A perfect physical specimen. He's not fucking like hacking blood all over the floor. Exactly. He didn't just have a coronary. Right. A horrible reputation with all the women he's ever met. Right. I saw him on Broadway right now. What's he doing? He's doing something like a Chekhov thing.

[00:49:14] Yeah, he's doing like a riff on, I think it's a riff on The Seagull. It's The Seagull. I think you're right. That's another one of those guys that like when he chooses to act just on a lark, you're like, you're fucking this good at this too. I know.

[00:49:23] It's infuriating. It is. So as we mentioned, Warren Beatty, Nicholson, who is a great dancer, who is a great dancer, who is a great dancer, who is a great dancer, who is a great dancer, who is a great dancer, who is a great dancer,

[00:49:36] who is a great dancer, who is a great dancer. Who is a great dancer? Nicholson, who apparently took Fosse to a Lakers game but couldn't dance. Double check that. That must be wrong. Jack Nicholson conducted business at a Lakers game? Dustin Hoffman, who essentially said,

[00:49:47] I will never work with Bob Fosse again after Lenny. He is named as the comedian in the script too. Wow. It's just Dustin. Justin. That's funny because he actually cast the guy who played the role on stage. Right? Yeah.

[00:50:03] Keith Carradine, who kind of cuts a similar physical figure. I get that. I've just done some, yeah. Yeah, like you can see that. And obviously he can sing a little and all that. And then it goes to Richard Dreyfuss, that becomes a disaster, so they fire him.

[00:50:18] But outside of Keith Carradine, they're essentially just going to the seven biggest leading men of that generation. As Dreyfuss put it, quote, I can't get up there with my big Jewish ass and try to be a dancer. To be fair, Ricky, he has a slender frame.

[00:50:31] I don't think his ass is that big. I don't know, he's kind of stocky in his way. Sure. Richard Dreyfuss. Now I'm trying to picture Mr. Holland in that outfit in Bye Bye Love and it's joyous. Lynn, what do you think of the opus

[00:50:42] at the end of Mr. Holland's opus? David has talked about this a lot. I don't, look, I just like, the opus sucks. It just always bugs me. You've gotten into this long podcast. But you've been jumping around, right? You're not listening all the way through. Sure.

[00:50:55] I think that- This is maybe the sixth time David has brought up how bad he thinks the opus is. Yeah, but then Joanna Gleeson walks in. She's the governor. No, all that's great. You're just like, it's- We're asking if the opus itself is a piece of work.

[00:51:07] If we were to judge Mr. Holland's life work. It's got like guitars and then a brass. Yeah, because he taught through so many eras, man. He did. It's like this sort of Copland thing that he's doing. I don't know, anyway. It's just always funny where they're like,

[00:51:20] because that movie's like two hours and 20 minutes long. It's not short. It's not bad. Like finally his opus and he just absolutely stinks up the joint. I think they thread it. They thread the themes of it enough throughout the film that I bought it. You buy the opus.

[00:51:33] That's fine. I'm not bumping it in the car, but like- What if you were? You're at a record store. You find, oh, what is this stuff? And then she'll take it home. I'll put it on. Divorced from context of the movie. Would you be like, good work?

[00:51:45] Look at label Mr. Holland. Or would you be like, eh? You know, if it's like some random find. You wanna hear something wild? This was this guy's life work. Taught for decades. Give this thing a listen. Natalie Portman puts the headphones on you. This will change your life.

[00:52:02] Are you like, eh? Okay. So Shider gets on board. Shider gets back on track. As you say, he was going to his house every night. Right? He's like, he's holding Bob Fosse's hair back while he's coughing into the toilet. Right? He's smoking cigarettes at the same.

[00:52:17] You know, he's trying to just be like, be as committed as possible to it. He's really good in the movie. He's incredible. I mean, Bob Fosse's whole thing, as we were saying, is that he so badly wanted to be Fred Astaire.

[00:52:32] And every time he tried to put himself in the spotlight, people were like, there's something about you that's not very charming. There's something a little creepy about you. Sure. Right? And he didn't have like the lithe form or whatever. No. No.

[00:52:48] And so there's this weird conundrum with this movie where it's like, you need to cast a movie star to play the Bob Fosse stand-in. But part of this character is he has a certain charisma that is able to help him in his career,

[00:53:02] but can't translate into him being a very captivating performer. Right, he's not actually gonna be. And sort of the fun of that also is that his style, which we now, I mean, it is its own genre of dance. Like you can say, and Fosse, Fosse, Fosse,

[00:53:19] is the anti-Astaire. Like it's like, okay, if Fred is elegant, I am pinched. If he's loose, I'm tight. Like it's these isolations. It's literally the inverse of everything he wanted. Like he just was like, well, this is what only I can do. Right.

[00:53:36] And Scheider does have that pinched quality. Like even though he's more seductive than Fosse ever played on camera, and he has movie star charisma that he's like committing to this piece of shit guy. Right. There's still the thing where it's like, I understand why he's not a star.

[00:53:54] Let me read you this quote he has about Jessica Lange's character just to close that off. When you think something's about to happen to you, and this is from Fosse. When you think something's about to happen to you

[00:54:02] in a car or an airplane coming close to the end, this is the flash I get. A woman dressed in an outfit like a nun's habit. A whole hallucinatory thing. It's like the final fuck. That's how Bob Fosse puts it.

[00:54:14] So it is, it's not just a Fellini ripoff to him. He's like, no, no, no. What's gonna flash before my eyes? He comes by it on his side. Exactly, yeah. Shirley MacLaine, of course, declined to play Gwen Verdon in this movie, which would have been weird.

[00:54:28] And kind of insulting. Yeah, yes. Yes, because it's like she already beat you out for Sweet Charity and now she's gonna play you. But then the decision to have Anne Rankin play herself is bananas. He made her audition for it. He wanted Sidney Lumet to play Patti Chayefsky.

[00:54:48] And then when that got eliminated, he wanted Lumet to play the Hal Prince, the role that Lithgow eventually plays. Lithgow eventually plays. I wish Lumet had had a little Sidney Pollack run later in his career as a character actor. Where he's just showing up as an actor.

[00:55:00] I know, it's such a good idea. And he was like a really good child actor. And then it may surprise you to hear this, but the production of this film was unpleasant and complicated and filled with drama. Right, and Fosse kept improvising on set

[00:55:16] and no one knew what they were even doing every day. One of the producers was basically tasked with, at a certain point, just having to go up to Bob and be like, last shot, enough. We're going after this. People need a break.

[00:55:32] And the infamous thing here is they have already gone over budget, over schedule, and they haven't shot any of the final number. And they're like, too bad, you can't do it. And he's like, this is the whole fucking movie. And so they cut together what they do have

[00:55:45] and they screen it for Fox, because it was set up at Columbia at the time. Columbia, yeah. And they were just like, we have, God, Jesus Christ, we can't not make this. Like, it's one of those things where everyone was like, out of control, vanity project,

[00:55:59] and then they show it and they're like, oh, this is good. This fucking works. And he gets a second studio to sign on and take over the movie. It was budgeted at six. They do that at nine million. Yeah, and then that's when Alan Ladd,

[00:56:12] who is the weirdo king of Fox in the late 70s, he's the guy who greenlit Star Wars. He's the guy who all looks so green, that's like greenlights like three women, right? My favorite. Your favorite story, right, yeah. So in the movie,

[00:56:24] when they're talking about going over time and over budget, they also are going over time and over budget. That's crazy. It's like meta on a whole other level. And then editing took it a year, just like how this movie is basically

[00:56:37] about a guy trying to edit a movie and being like, I don't know, this is shit. The whole time. The real mind fuck is when you watch Fosse-Verdon and you're watching a dramatization of the guy making the movie about the problems. Yeah, it got-

[00:56:50] And then there's someone is like, you know, like you're like five levels in. Yeah, it is funny because one of my favorite aspects of the show is like making Patty Chayefsky the best friend in a romantic comedy. The like Dave Chappelle in You've Got Mail

[00:57:02] being like, you fucked it up man. But now I realize like, oh, it's kind of using the device from, like obviously he played that role in his life. It actually is the, I'll cut all that chat so you can just in a weird way. That's so funny. Yeah.

[00:57:14] And then the thing with this movie is everything you read about it, it's a nightmare. And then it comes out and it's a hit. Yeah, it was one of the top 10, 20 movies of the year. Nine Oscar nominations. It was nominated for a bunch of Oscars.

[00:57:23] Wins the fucking Palme d'Or. Stanley Kubrick called it the best film he had ever seen. I know, to have that line in the movie where he's like, do you think Kubrick ever has days like this? And Kubrick watches the movie and he's like, you've bested me.

[00:57:32] Can you just picture him in his, I picture the Shining Hotel in London. That's where he lived, yeah. Right, exactly. Just being like, ah, he said my name. Yeah. Hey, 10 out of 10. That was me. Spielberg, of course, is good friends with Scheider. Sure. They worked on Jaws together.

[00:57:49] Scheider showed him the movie and Spielberg was like, he's gonna release it with this ending? Because think about baby Spielberg being shocked at the idea. Have to please the audience. Right, of like, whoa. Imagine if it were the Close Encounters guy. Yeah, right. Yeah, that's so funny.

[00:58:04] He was like, you didn't want Dreyfuss? That guy moves! And it got great reviews. See what that guy can do with a plate of mashed potatoes? I'm gonna pick Jewish ass up on that screen. It won four Oscars. Yeah. You know, design Oscars, but still.

[00:58:17] It wins editing, it wins score. Score, sorry, editing, song, and art direction and production design. Okay, okay. Costume design. Yeah. And it won the Palm Door. Yeah. One of those classic, like, it had been in theaters for five months, they put it in the Camp Film Festival

[00:58:31] and it wins the Palm Door. You know, another thing I had failed to put together into watching this last night, but like, Fosse was in this weird direct competition with Coppola, where it's like, Godfather I, Cabaret, same year. Yes. And Lenny's the same year as Godfather II.

[00:58:49] It's song, original song score, that Oscar. Thank you. Sorry, go ahead. Lenny's the same year as Godfather II and Conversation. And then this is the same year as Apocalypse Now, right? Yeah, 1979, yeah. And that story you threw out in the Lenny episode

[00:59:02] of him being paranoid about seeing a fat guy on set with a beard and glasses and being like, fucking Coppola! Like for him it was like, that's- That is a story from the Lenny set. You trying to replace me, is this Coppola?

[00:59:11] But he was like, that's the guy. No one thrives more on like having a competition and having, like the entire opening sequence of this movie is like, I just did a chorus line in four minutes. Yeah. Fuck you. That, you're totally right.

[00:59:24] That's like, the chip on his shoulder is so massive, even though it's like, you've had every success! How can you not be satisfied? Right. He's broken. And he and Coppola have like both won their Oscars at this point. He's like, but I haven't gotten fucking Best Picture.

[00:59:39] And he never does, I guess. This is the Kramer versus Kramer year? This is the Kramer versus Kramer year, which was a guaranteed Best Picture winner. That was like, you know, it was the best, it was the biggest hit of the year.

[00:59:48] It was the Avengers Endgame of its kind. That's what, you know, this like divorce movie was like the, you know, colossal blockbuster. That's the first movie my parents took me to see. I was six weeks old. Really? You were six weeks old? I was six weeks old.

[00:59:59] But like, they were just like, we don't have a sitter. You're coming to watch Kramer versus Kramer. It was like, that's a weird date night. Yeah. Hey, America was rolling out. That's the thing. The amount of money that movie made, it must have played in every context.

[01:00:13] Like that's a date night. That's like kids seeing a fucking matinee after school. Like everyone went to see that fucking thing. Anyway. And like a fine movie, but a kind of an uninteresting winner in a year with like these sort of landmark films or maverick filmmakers.

[01:00:30] It's a fair point. The other nominees that year are Apocalypse Now, All That Jazz, Breaking Away, which is a great movie. Great movie. And Norma Rae, which rules. So it's sort of a mix of like smaller drama stuff with, you know, and then Apocalypse Now

[01:00:46] and All That Jazz are these like, oh, tourist masterpieces that are like big. Kill myself to make this. Right, the heart attack movies. And then, yeah, Hoffman wins, Hoffman and Sally Field are in Meryl Streep for Kramer versus Kramer. And who wins supporting actor?

[01:01:02] Melvin Douglas for Being There, which is kind of a grand old man win. No, he's fun in being there. He's fun, yeah. I mean, I love that movie, but it's a grand old man win. I love that term, the grand old man. The grand old man.

[01:01:15] Bring him up, bring him up. Because like the actor nominees, it's Hoffman, Jack Lemmon for The China Syndrome, Al Pacino for Injustice For All, that's this whole, the world is out of order, Roy Scheider and Peter Sellers for Being There.

[01:01:27] Like it's a very, you know, very, very robust. Well, and that whole generation of guys, they essentially make Hoffman wait a decade into like a landmark career before they give him it. They make Pacino wait 20 years. De Niro gets it fairly quickly.

[01:01:40] De Niro got it young, but supporting. Yeah, Duvall, they make wait 15 years. Like all these guys, it was like, you had to get through your grand old man, your Art Carney's, your what have yous. Yeah. Yeah. It's a good Oscar year. It's a good Oscar year.

[01:01:54] Good year for movies, I don't know. Can I, there was an argument for me that Ben Vereen is snubbed for this movie. Ben Vereen's incredible. It is incredible. And it's like the MC performance where you're like, how can a guy who just does a musical number

[01:02:09] and a little bit of crowd work? And you feel it. But like that section in Bye Bye Love where they just go to him and he has that one isolated, and it's better than maybe anything. And it's an uninterrupted take of him dancing.

[01:02:21] It's just some of the most incredible performance of any kind I've ever seen captured on film. And because he's so montagey, every time they cut back to him, he's doing some new thing. You're just like, where are these fucking moves coming from?

[01:02:32] And his energy is so bizarre because you've put him in this context of like, oh, here's this insincere, glad-handing Hollywood bullshit phony. And then when he comes back in this final stretch, you're like, he kind of feels like Satan now.

[01:02:44] Right, or at least some sort of guardian of the threshold. Right. Like some kind of, yeah, he's part of the same vibe that Jessica Lange is part of. But I'm like. It's unearthly. That's a seven minute Oscar. No, he's incredible.

[01:02:58] And you can bump the kid from Kara vs. Kramer, get him out of there. Or Mickey Rooney for the Black Stallion, one of those weird kind of like, oh, you know. Who was the fifth? Well, the other nominees are Robert Duvall

[01:03:09] for Apocalypse Now, who is a pretty good performance. And Frederick Forrest for The Road. But also not that much screen time. No, but I mean, Duvall in Apocalypse Now. No, no, no, I'm not arguing. It's ridiculous. I'm not arguing the point. Especially since.

[01:03:20] In terms of screen time, it's about commensurate with. That's a fair point. Yeah, you're right. Duvall's probably in 10 minutes. The difference is his style. He smells the napalm and he keeps it moving. It's really, it's really. Goes that three scenes. Napalm, good. This time of day, perfect.

[01:03:33] Out of here. He's so like ripped in Apocalypse Now. It is that whole, you're like, this is Duvall? Like, it's crazy. No, because even like I'm thinking about if there are any other bankable leading men of this moment who could have pulled it off

[01:03:46] as well as Schreider did. And it's like, Duvall's almost the guy who's angry enough to pull it off. But I don't know if he could be seductive enough in the same way, you know? No, he probably couldn't. Well, I don't wanna say no, because he's a good actor.

[01:04:04] Yeah. Yeah. But Schreider's amazing. I don't wanna take it away from him. He's not a war time concealer. Yeah. He's not. This movie has two of the greatest openings of all time. Go ahead. Like I think just the cold open of the showtime,

[01:04:18] the classical music, the waking up in the mirror, and then going to on Broadway. Yeah. Those are just like two incredible openings. So unsettling and haunting too. Yes. It's so good. Allenheim talks about that like, as they cut that sequence and they were showing it to the people

[01:04:34] at the other stages of post-production, the sound mixers and everything, everyone kept on calling up and they were like, oh, you're winning the Oscar this year. Like just from that sequence, they were like, buddy, you got it. And he was like, nah, I kinda know I got it.

[01:04:45] Like they just watched that and they were like, this thing's fucking dynamite. And it is like a complete statement in and of itself. It's like you totally get the weird heartbreak of being in that position. There's so many little mini stories every time he has a little interaction

[01:05:01] of giving someone the good news or the bad news. Honey, I did fuck him and I didn't get it. Yeah. That's incredible. And there's the guy who is so off. Yeah, his kid's laughing at him. Yeah. It's so good. No, it's all of it.

[01:05:16] And that was filmed at the Palace Theater of Liza Minnelli, Infamy, Liza at the Palace. And Bob had an earwig in Roy's ear for that whole sequence. So he's literally in his head being like, tell her she looks beautiful. Or whatever the fuck you're saying. God.

[01:05:35] So, okay, yes, it's hard to go through all that jazz plot-wise. It's not really, it's not like it's formless, but it is, right? Like how- It's almost like you have to go through the elements more than the plot. Exactly. It's one of the things Joe Gideon is juggling.

[01:05:51] Right, he's trying to make the comedian. He's trying to make the comedian. A film later to be perfected by Taylor Hackford. That's true, that is true. And then he's trying to- Is it The Stand-Up or The Comedian? You're right, it's called The Stand-Up.

[01:06:04] Oh, it's called The Stand-Up, fuck, my joke sucks. He's trying to do that, he's trying to do the airplane musical. NY slash LA, right, is what it's called, yeah. I love their confidence of just like, this thing is a fucking surefire hit, this thing is gonna print money.

[01:06:23] But yeah, but it's like he's watching dailies. Every morning he wakes up, he takes pills, he rushes, he rubs water on his face, he says it's showtime. I can't put I, Jobson without thinking of Joe Gideon. I don't know about you. No. It's very visceral.

[01:06:37] He really captures the grossness of it, yeah. Just the bathroom mirror. I think any time I look in a bathroom mirror- The address on his prescription is literally one building over from where he actually lived. This was- So he hit it. Yeah, he really hit it.

[01:06:51] He edited 61 and I think it's 57 on the pills. Wait, so wait, where did he live? Wait, where did Bob Fosse live? Like West, East 61st Street, I think. Sure. No, West 61st Street, it's a Central Park West. It was the editor's argument where he'd be like,

[01:07:04] so you, and he'd be like, that's not me, it's Joe Gideon, he's like, Bob, your fucking address is on the pill. Look at that. It's your labels. And he's, you know, it's Bob Fosse. His ex-wife is working on the show.

[01:07:17] But obviously she thinks he's a piece of shit. What's the thing he's taking? Is dexedrine? He takes dexedrine, Visine, and Alka-Seltzer. I think the whole thing with dexedrine is it's like immediate action. So the Showtime thing is supposed to be like the second he's popped it, it's on.

[01:07:33] Right. He's got his girlfriend, she's played by his real girlfriend. He's got his daughter. He keeps seeing an angel of death and chatting with her. Just one of those movies. And he's a mean prick who's always taking things out on people. Yes. Right? Yes.

[01:07:51] I don't know, how else to describe? He lives in an incredible apartment. He does. That is like a gorgeous, gorgeous Manhattan apartment. Like blown away. It's got two floors. That's another incredible sequence, the Harry Nilsen Perfect Day sequence, where you go from just like the idyllic life

[01:08:11] to realizing like, oh, she's at the other side of the door and the song immediately becomes like completely ironic and just brutal. When Anne Rankin walks in with the dog and she says, I'm sorry. She nails that fucking moment of just like,

[01:08:27] it's so fucked up that she's blaming herself and that she's just like, I'm stupid to have ever thought it wouldn't be this. It's so chilling to watch it in a way. Like for her to be like living this out as she was living her real life,

[01:08:41] must have been so bizarre. Is she still alive, Anne Rankin? I think she very recently passed. Yeah, she died very recently. Right, yes, right. Yeah, that's right. No, but yes, it is so wild that it is her. It's almost more wild that she's the only person playing herself.

[01:09:01] Like it makes it more extreme where it's like you're putting her through the ringer when you're at the most extreme point of your relationship with her. Yeah. Bob's daughter, Nicole, has a cameo in this movie but she's not playing the daughter. Right, sure.

[01:09:13] She plays like one of the kids. You see her dancing in the background. Exactly. Yeah. The actress plays the daughter in this. This is the only thing she ever did. Right, she's got a, incredible. She's so charming. She has a difficult to pronounce name. Erzsebetfoldy?

[01:09:29] I think that's how it's said, yeah. And then when she's like giving it in the final number where she's dancing. Yeah, well the dance with in ranking that they do for Joe in the apartment is maybe the most charming. It is. It's kind of the only sweet moment

[01:09:44] and it's still tinged with all this weird melancholy obviously because it's like, you know, there's a relationship there that you wish he had more of, right? Or could enjoy more. But it is so incredibly charming. And the dance practice scene. I mean that weird like.

[01:10:03] There's like nothing, I don't know. It's the only way he knows how to communicate with people. I don't know who she is because this is all she ever did. Yes, there's a years later interview with her on the Criterion thing. It's her in ranking. Okay.

[01:10:15] That sequence where he's talking to his daughter while he's dancing with her, that was one of the first things Bob filmed because I think Roy at one point said to him, wait a minute Bobby, you want me to sing, dance and act at the same time?

[01:10:29] Can this be done? Can it be done? So it really was like both the deep end and like this is how it's gonna work. And where he's putting him through his paces, he's choreographing, Joe Gideon is choreographing, but he's also having this very sort of,

[01:10:46] you know, one of the only honest relationships he has. But I think it works because Shiner just always looks so haggard and stressed. Yes. And he's a very handsome guy, but he's got that weird quality to his handsomeness. There's that odd intensity to him.

[01:11:02] And he, in most movies is so fucking serious that something about him smiling is a little unnatural. Right? Right. Like it's funny that he became such a big star because he does not have a traditional kind of charm to him. As you said, there's the pinched quality

[01:11:22] that was always there even in some of the biggest fucking movies of all time. Did you guys ever watch Sequest DSV? RIP Jonathan Brandes. There you go. That was my introduction to him. Yeah, and that's sort of Spielberg going like, we gotta get Roy work.

[01:11:37] I think so, I don't know. I mean, yeah, he was right. That was the end of his career. Yeah. But no, he's just so well cast here. I mean, any, I don't know, I just can't imagine anyone else. I'm looking at like stills in the movie now

[01:11:51] and he's just, he's so tired. I just love it. He's, yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's something like, there's something, I don't know, like a buttery about him, you know? Wait, what's the word you just used? Buttery. I'm trying to even think of how to spread it.

[01:12:06] You want to spread him on toast? Well, yeah. No, but there's this, there's something just a little, like he's slick, but in a way that's a little bit sticky and gross. Yeah, right. But like not to the extent that you're like, well, this is just a monster.

[01:12:22] Why would any woman pay any attention to him? No, but you're like, this is gonna leave residue. He's magnetic. I'm not gonna be able to get this out of my clothes. Yeah. Wow, that butter metaphor really took us on a journey. Look, I fucking,

[01:12:33] I was willing that thing into the train station. Keith Gordon, of course, star of Christine, later filmmaker in his own right, has that like terrifying sequence doing the child sort of burlesque performances and not realizing he's like dancing with a huge semen stain on him. Yep.

[01:12:53] But I forgot that that's Keith Jordan as baby Joe. Yes, yes. But it's such a good like, you know, Fosse Verdon, the series digs into this more deeply, but that's like one sequence that pretty much gives you so much of what you need to know about this guy's

[01:13:10] entire relationship to women and sexuality. Unsupervised at 13. Right. Seeing things and experiencing things he never should have experienced. Right, right. And then getting tied into guilt, shame, performance. Him existing in worlds that he's not ready for. It's so crazy for him to put that on screen. Yes.

[01:13:29] Not that it's not a part of the Fosse legend or whatever, that that was his childhood. But was that known then? Like this is my question with Fosse in the 70s. It feels kind of surprisingly revealing. Like it's a thing you would imagine

[01:13:39] he wouldn't be ready to work through. I can read the book. I can learn about Bob Fosse, but in the 70s, is it like, oh, that guy is a horn dog. Like, you know, because it's like this is in general release.

[01:13:51] People are going to see it around the country and they're coming away with like, right? Like that's what I guess I'm trying to entangle. He must have been some level of gossip column fixture. I guess so. Yeah, I mean, the guy did Hey Big Spender,

[01:14:04] which is like the craziest, you know, prostitution MGM musical number of all time. So he's associated with burlesque and sexier, right, raw. Yeah, so much of his career is like taking, removing the veneer of respectability that exists in show business and performance

[01:14:27] and being like, no more euphemisms here. What are we actually talking about? And this is a little bit pathetic and desperate and grimy and unpleasant. And I guess Lenny, his last movie had been such a boundary breaking movie as well. Like that was so much part of it.

[01:14:41] Yeah, and Cabaret was as well. His depiction of his mother is so grotesque. Like it's like this low angle and it's like there's junk in the background and it looks like one of those like Bill and Ted Hell sequences. It's a bogus journey. Yeah, it's very bogus.

[01:14:59] This is kind of Joe Gideon's bogus journey. I mean, that is what's going on in all this. That must have been a working title. Right, exactly. Oh, God. Juskal Lang, best three out of five. Can you imagine if William Sadler had the Juskal Lang part in this?

[01:15:17] Why won't you cast me in your shows? So Cliff Gorman, we should mention him briefly, but he played Lenny. He was in like the original Boys in the Band, I think. He's one of those theater guys from the 70s.

[01:15:32] And you're watching a movie that it feels very different from Lenny in a way and that he's so animated. Whereas like the Hoffman performance is much more like laced with cynicism and confidence. Whereas like the standup or whatever.

[01:15:45] What's the dig he gives at both Dustin Hoffman and himself? He goes, he's mumbling. And I'm the idiot that let him mumble. Which is totally true, he does mumble. It's Dustin Hoffman for crying out loud. You're hiring a mumbler, that's his thing. The scenes in the editing room,

[01:16:00] it's Allen Hime playing himself. Right, that's right. And he said like, I had my assistant editor and we had our like intern or whatever. And they were supposed to play themselves, but he thought the intern was more attractive, is the blonde lady, so he like changed their roles

[01:16:15] so she could be closer to Lens, right? But Allen Hime's playing himself and he was like, I want this moment where I ask you to do a cut and you sort of like raise your eyebrows disapprovingly to the beat of the cut, right?

[01:16:25] And Allen Hime's got these big fucking bushy Peter Gallagher eyebrows. They're like huge, like, right. Georgia Whipple. Yes, absolutely. And so he was like, just give me an eyebrow raise and he did it and he was like smaller, smaller, smaller.

[01:16:39] Fosse was always, I hate acting, don't act, just behave. Smaller, smaller, smaller, smaller. Then they get there and they look at the footage and he's like, show me the smallest take we have. And he's like, Bob, that was the smallest. And he goes like, I can't believe,

[01:16:53] I can't believe I fucking let this happen. Like how did I not get a smaller take than that? And Allen Hime said, I'm not an actor. And he went, but you're a person. And I should have been able to get more out of you.

[01:17:06] It was this weird thing of his just like obsession with I can manipulate people, I can get anything out of anyone, even the things they think they don't have inside of them. And there's a sequence in the original draft, it's not in the film, where he says,

[01:17:20] show me the cut of from Valerie to Dustin. It's like, I want the shot of Valerie to Dustin. And Hime was like, he never shot it. He never shot it. And they're all talking about how he never shot it. He goes, and he has this tantrum.

[01:17:32] It's in his head. It's in his head. And then finally he goes, I never shot it. He does always give himself shit at the end, it's true. Like that's the one thing about Joe Gideon slash Bob Fosse. Yeah.

[01:17:45] He is not like some deluded fool who's like, yeah, right. He pulls away the football on himself. On himself. So you edited Tick, Tick, Boom. Were you in the editing room for In the Heights or anything like that? It seems like a nightmare to edit a musical.

[01:17:58] Is it like just how precise you have to be? I think it's more fun. Okay, fair enough. Literally, I think the worst musical's more fun to watch than some good movies. That's my personal bailiwick. But I'm more mean just like the preciseness of everything you have to do.

[01:18:15] The toughest one for us was the therapy number, which is actually the most Fosse, Rob Marshall-ish sequence we have. Because we've got like the musical number Jonathan Larson has written, and then we've got like the fight that inspired the number and they're happening at the same time.

[01:18:33] And originally that song was longer and originally that fight was longer. And we are cutting it down to sort of its bare essentials. But there's also a tempo shift. The song starts really slowly and gets faster and faster. So that was the real nightmare.

[01:18:49] Yeah, that seems so annoying. It was like you can't just like cut two lines. I have to ramp up the tempo in the underscoring to get to the next section. So that got very like higher math calculus. Right, you can't just be like,

[01:19:03] okay, let's watch like six versions of this and see what works best or whatever. Right, you have to match it all to the rhythms. I don't know. I mean, when they talk about like Lenny, they sort of found too much work. I'll skip it. Yeah, exactly.

[01:19:16] Lenny and Cabaret, they sort of found the editing rhythms and the structures and how to have the different worlds sort of in dialogue with each other in post. And then this movie he tried to like write that into the script. Like the interplay between all of it

[01:19:30] at a certain point he was like, it's too difficult, it's better to just shoot everything as it is and then find the weird echoes. But you're right, because like of course Cabaret writes like you're either in the show, you're either in the Cabaret

[01:19:44] or you're in the whatever real world and he's so good at switching between. But in this it's like you never really feel like you're in the real world, even when he's working. Like when he's choreographing. Like I don't know.

[01:19:57] It always feels like some dream he's having on the slab. Right, like as he's near death. Right. I mean, I hope this does not come across critical in any way. But when it was announced that you were doing the Tick, Tick, Boom movie, I was like,

[01:20:12] okay, here's a guy who has blank check status right now. If he wants to direct a movie musical, presumably you could do anything you wanted. No disrespect to Tick, Tick, Boom, but why is that the thing you'd pick? And then I remember seeing the trailer and going,

[01:20:24] oh, he's fucking doing all that jazz with Larsen's life. Like now it totally makes sense to me of here's a guy who similarly was obsessed with the Ticking Clock. Totally. No, there's a shot of the Ticking Clock in All That Jazz.

[01:20:37] It gave me chills when I re-watched it on Wednesday night. I just pan away from him, show a clock, and come back to him. But you can tell this by the thing you're saying about the book, the countdown of the book, right?

[01:20:47] But the narrative of, oh, what's the actual work I'm adapting and what's the life story I can have running in tandem to his fictionalized version of his life? Yeah, yeah, and for me, the part I had to discover because the fun for me of Tick, Tick, Boom

[01:21:04] was there is no definitive version of Tick, Tick, Boom. There were like six versions of a one-man show he did with Roger Bart singing backup. Like from 1989 to 1994. To tiny audiences. Yeah, they got more and more bitter as his 30th birthday was in the rear view

[01:21:23] and he's still performing his one-man show. The final straw, I think, he got a performance at the Public, but they scheduled it the same day as the Public's Christmas party. And so drunk people are wandering in and out while he's performing Tick, Tick, Boom

[01:21:39] and he was like, I'm done with this piece. Like that was the straw that broke the camel's back. And then it's sort of getting adapted into a three-person piece. And then it got adapted posthumously by David Auburn and Scott Schwartz, Stephen Schwartz's son, directed that off-Broadway version.

[01:21:53] And that's what I saw. And that's a three-person show. And so the thing I had to discover because I had what he wrote about himself, I had sort of end appointments that takes on with his untimely passing, but the fun for me was finding his working process.

[01:22:12] Like that's the thing that all that jazz has in spades, right? Like how Fosse worked, how he worked with dancers, how he came up with ideas. So that was like a big trip to the Library of Congress. And there's an amazing guy named Mark Eden Horowitz

[01:22:24] who runs all the musical theater archives. He's got Sondheim's papers and Hammerstein's papers. That seems like a cool job. And it really is. And he puts on a show for you too. Here's the draft copies of So Long, Farewell from Sound of Music.

[01:22:38] And you see like Sayonara crossed out. Like all this crazy shit. It's really amazing. But the thing he pointed out to me was this notion that Jonathan Larson wrote questions. He would write himself questions and the song would be the answer to the question.

[01:22:59] So he would write, I mean, the most famous example is like, how do you measure a year? And you've got a piece of paper that says like 52 weeks, you know, 365 days. 525. But when I learned that about his process, the fact that the last song in the show,

[01:23:19] every lyric's a question, I found that like amazing and heartbreaking and just like, oh, like this is a portrait of an artist like interrupted. Okay, that's the thing. It's so fascinating that like that is something he wrote before he died, but it feels retrospective, right?

[01:23:37] Yeah, he wrote his own like All That Jazz. And that's the thing, that's what All That Jazz is too. It's not like Bob Fosse like wrote the screenplay and then died and someone else made it. Like he's predicting his future.

[01:23:48] And it is so like, yeah, it's similarly retrospective. And with the Larson thing, it's like him dying will always be the headline of his story. It's like, can you believe this guy never got to see the success? I remember my dad explaining that to me.

[01:24:01] Like, you don't know the thing with rent? Like this is the whole point, is that. It's so crazy. It's so crazy. And the timing of it feels- But you know what's interesting because that's true for our generation, but there are, you know, now rent is decades old.

[01:24:15] Oh, sure. And there are people who don't know that story at all. I didn't know how few people knew it until we started test screening it. That's fascinating. And realizing, oh, we actually need to put context. That makes sense to me because it's true.

[01:24:27] The whole rent phenomenon that we're thinking of is actually in the past. Like, not that rent is still not a famous show that people like, but the whole sort of publicity of it is beyond us. Right, right. You're away from the original past.

[01:24:40] Where the main lyric is no day but today and this guy didn't live to see it. And it's a show that is literally about like seizing the moments and everyone having a good time. Why it's such a good movie. Here's another insane question for you,

[01:24:53] but it just struck me. When you're talking about going to like the Library of Congress and looking at these notes and everything, do you, how do you reconcile? And do you just not fucking think about it? And am I ruining your brain right now by asking you this?

[01:25:05] When you're working on anything that any piece of your process now has historical significance. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, I really try not to think about that. You just try to fucking never think about that. You shouldn't think about that. You shouldn't, yeah.

[01:25:17] No, I think that way lies madness. Right, exactly. And there's so many artists who either try to go bigger in the wake of success. And it gets crazy and overblown or I don't know. But that is of course what our stupid podcast often is,

[01:25:31] is like what do you do after you make the sixth sense? Like how do you re-respond to something like that where it's like I didn't even mean for this to be some sort of cultural thing and now it is.

[01:25:42] And now I have to be the twist ending guy. Exactly, so do I lean into it? Do I run away from it? Do I go bigger? Do I go smaller? Yeah, right. I think that the, for me the answer is like choosing the right heroes.

[01:25:55] Like Rebel Without a Crew by Robert Rodriguez was like my shit when I was 17. He was like, he made his own movie for $8,000. How do I do that? Like I remember thinking that and devouring that book. And he talks about sophomore slump

[01:26:07] and he says the answer is to do so much different shit that no one actually knows what your sophomore project is. Right, don't actually have a second album. Just do like eight things. So he did four rooms and he did a Showtime series.

[01:26:19] He just did all those different. No, it's fine. Look, I would imagine the, and Sondheim's the other hero that I choose who just always like just never repeated himself. Just keeps doing it. But like you. And also didn't try and go bigger. Like or whatever.

[01:26:33] He would usually go lateral or right. Like you say, you would just pick something completely like what if he's doing Pacific Overtures? Why would he do that? You know, like and it's like, you know, fuck you. But I, yeah, it feels like the only healthy way.

[01:26:43] Who are you cursing out right now? Fuck you, naysayers of Sondheim. Whoever didn't like Pacific Overtures. It's a great show. Piece of shit. It feels like the only way you can wrap your head around following up Hamilton without losing your mind

[01:26:56] is try a bunch of different shit and make, relieve the pressure of anything needing to be the followup to Hamilton. Like you're, you are. I'll never write a history musical again. Oh, no, you should. Come on, Sam and Chase or. I'm trying to think of like some.

[01:27:12] No, but like you have so many different talents and interests that you're able to just like keep just embers going and trying different things. And yeah, I mean, that's the hope. And again, like they just take too long for you to like be like, I should do this.

[01:27:27] You can't power the amount of energy required to make something if it's like, this is what I should be doing. It has to be the thing that doesn't leave you alone. Otherwise you'll just put it down. I find I'll just put it down. I just get bored.

[01:27:41] You see, if it was Sam and Chase, you could have a song about swimming upstream. You could do a whole fish thing. I'm actually getting into a Sam. I don't actually know if Sam and Chase was a good guy though. I mean, I should Google him.

[01:27:54] He was an, I mean, no, I'm not gonna go on a deep. I'll offline, I'll go on a deep thing on Sam and Chase. He is the most compelling character in the Doris Kearns Goodwin book, Team of Rivals, because he was the staunchest abolitionist,

[01:28:08] but then he got very power hungry in Doris' telling. And when Lincoln finally wrote the Emancipation Proclamation, he said, I don't think you should do it, because he wanted to be the one to do it. Sounds like a good subject for a musical. Stop it!

[01:28:22] Because he presides over the Johnson impeachment, right? Like that's pretty dramatic. I don't know. I'm just imagining. Salmon! With an exclamation point. I know, imagining how people would respond if it came out. Like Lin-Manuel announces salmon. Really, he's really gonna just do that again.

[01:28:37] He's just gonna pull a different guy. Sorry for bringing up Sam and Chase. I think I always think about him as if he's called all period specific music, it's an all white cast. Yeah, you go the opposite way. You do 1776. Like what? Very traditional.

[01:28:52] You know they're bringing back 1776. I was very rude about 1776, the movie, on this podcast recently. On an episode he said it. And people got really mad at me. It still hinks. How do you feel about the movie of 1776 if you've ever seen it?

[01:29:05] I mean, it feels like a pretty faithful recording. It's not much further along than, like it feels almost like a screen grab of the show. It was the original cast. And they just kinda got everybody. I don't, you know. I just, I don't know.

[01:29:20] My mom put it on. It was one of those things where we were like in an Airbnb and it's like they have four DVDs and we've seen three of them. 1778, let's put it on! And I was just writhing. David fucking bodied it

[01:29:32] and we still get messages from people defending it. Yeah, people are like how dare you? And now there's some re-release. Because people love Mr. Feeny. Yeah, that's true. It's Lin-Manuel. You're gonna shit on Mr. Feeny? How dare you? I didn't specifically shit on him. Mr. Matthews!

[01:29:46] Real 90's kids understand that you can't shit on Mr. Feeny. Real 76 kids, whatever. Leave me alone. Now just have salmon chases. My favorite part of the podcast are David's asides to imaginary. Just missives coming at him. Lin's favorite part of the podcast? Fuck you, he's Steven Spielberg!

[01:30:05] Yeah, right. Me mad at the Pacific Overture's critics. They existed! They did? I'm trying to think of major sequences we haven't talked. He has a heart attack. I guess we haven't really, all the medical stuff is kind of impressively nasty. Yeah, it's pretty grisly.

[01:30:26] It doesn't have to be. I feel like they make it more grisly, or not more, but more realistic than. They show real fucking open hearts. This is what I'm saying. It's the thing that like. It's visceral. It remains still truly shocking. Scheider's so like taut,

[01:30:44] and his skin feels so drawn over his face that it feels like you could kind of just tear a hole in him with your finger. You know what I mean? Bruicheider is like a human being who looks like he's stuck in sausage casing. You know? Right.

[01:30:59] Where you just feel like. That's just the tight shirt he's wearing in Bye Bye Love. Well, additionally. Having worn a facsimile of it. Sure. It's sausage casing. No, but I think his skin as well. You know that it is like when they cut into him, you're just expecting,

[01:31:11] the tension's gonna release like a rubber band. Yeah. So, I don't know if there's any hospital stuff we wanna talk about. I mean, I mentioned in Lenny, in our Lenny episode, I think that he would literally grab every nurse's ass, and then I was watching this movie,

[01:31:26] and I was like, oh right, that's just in all that jazz. Right, yeah. You don't need to read a biography for that. Yeah, it's just happening. CCH Pounder, a young CCH Pounder. Her first film, I believe. Yes, popping up as a nurse. That was great. It was great.

[01:31:39] She's the best. I sent Lenny on Wednesday night just a photo of Wallace Shawn. That's right. Yep, no subject in that email. Look, a wild Wallace Shawn. Responded, come in. Come in! Wallace Shawn. Theoretically. Exactly, basically pitching the producers to him, right?

[01:31:54] Like, you know, if you kill this guy, you'll actually make him profit. You can make more money with a flop than a, yeah. Which isn't the whole thing that it's like, impossible to make money on like a show, right?

[01:32:04] Like, is that like kind of the joke there a little bit? Oh, that is just such a risky bet. One in five shows. It's a hugely difficult proposition. I don't know why we keep doing it. Well, that's nice because we like theater and it's good.

[01:32:16] What if I make back their money and most of them just come out even, right? Like of the ones that make back their money, they're like, okay, we can close without taking a fucking haircut. What did you guys think of all the exaggerations

[01:32:28] of just like the behind the scenes and like the investors and like there's that one character actor who stuck out to me. There's David Margulies, who's the mayor in Ghostbusters. He's one of my favorite movie character actors. And he's amazing. I got to talk to him. Really?

[01:32:44] Yeah, I run a film. He also passed away recently. Yeah, I run a film series in Washington Heights over at the United Palace and he was my guest for Ghostbusters. Hell yeah. Lenny. A quiet, like maybe the secret weapon of Ghostbusters. Yeah. You're doing Raiders this weekend, right?

[01:33:00] Yeah, we got Spielberg for Raiders. It's insanity. You have Spielberg? You must've met Spielberg at this point, right? I met Spielberg. Well, the crazy thing was that Heights and West Side Story were filming within two blocks of each other. Right, you were both uptown. The same summer of 2019

[01:33:16] and one of my, maybe my all time great days. I like to like at the end of the day be like, I think that was a top five great day. I spent the day writing lyrics for Alan Menken for this like new Little Mermaid tune.

[01:33:29] And then I had to furiously drive back for the closing scene of In the Heights. It was like literally all the hydrants are open. We had the original cast there. My wife has a cameo in that shot. Like her dad is there who grew up in the neighborhood.

[01:33:43] And then like, we're trying to get the light and we have five fucking hydrants open. I'm like crying with every take. And we wrap, that's the last shot. And then like the moment with the little girl putting on the hat was improvised. Like that's John F. Jimmy like,

[01:33:59] put your hat on her head. And you're like, ah! And that's the take and it's a wrap on the day. And I walk two blocks north to 177th Street and they're fucking filming Maria. Like it was like, and by the way-

[01:34:11] Because they actually filmed that in like an actual place. They filmed it in like a back alley between four buildings on 177th Street. And I had a bunch of friends on that show. Tony Kushner's like longtime associate, Antonia and I went to high school together.

[01:34:28] And she actually, she's weirdly also the reason I ended up going to the college I went to because she snuck me into a film class to Wesleyan. And she snuck me into, it was a senior level Hitchcock class. And Janine Basinger, who's like the god

[01:34:45] of the film department at Wesleyan, like gets up in front of the class and goes, some of you aren't supposed to be here. And like looks at me and she goes, but this is such a rare print of Otto Preminger's Bunny Lake is Missing

[01:34:58] that I wouldn't like begrudge anyone. Right, I wouldn't kick anyone out. I wouldn't kick anyone out. I would just like rock and roll it. And like, it was an amazing movie. The class was supposed to be from one to four and ended up going till six

[01:35:08] just because we couldn't stop talking. I was like, I wanna go where people are this passionate about movies. Like almost missed my bus back to New York. And so yeah, so I walk up to 177th Street and like Spielberg is figuring it out

[01:35:22] and he still has like student spirit. He's like, let me show you like my, like I'm figuring out how to shoot this. Like I've never shot a musical before and he's showing me like things he's trying on his iPhone. It really feels like that movie especially

[01:35:35] was that for him, right? Where he was really excited again to be like, this is like a new world for me. Have you gotten to speak to him outside of that or like was your one meeting with him? I've only just seen him at things.

[01:35:46] Like that moment I just got a nice film geek moment with him between like, and literally what they were shooting was the like Maria and like the pan up to her. And he was just trying to get the timing on that right.

[01:35:59] And they were far from doing it. And then I walked home because I was in my neighborhood. That's the other part of the top five. I like, I remember I was walking, I was walking just across the neighborhood

[01:36:10] back to my apartment and like two guys on the stoop. One of the guys was like, Hamilton, the fuck are you doing here? I was like, I still live here. Do people call you Hamilton on the street like that? In my neighborhood, it's 50-50 Usnavi and Hamilton.

[01:36:24] Oh sure, okay. For many years it was Usnavi and I love that. Yeah, yeah, that rules. That story in and of itself is a fundamental difference between you and Bob Fosse. That like, you can talk about like, I'm able to step back and look at that day

[01:36:37] and the immense just sort of like satisfaction, appreciation I felt from that day. That feels good. What a lucky life. Yeah, my whole, yeah, I don't have a broken thing. Right, that day would have been Bob Fosse miserable. Pouring dirt into a bowl being like,

[01:36:50] why won't it ever fill? Bob Fosse would have walked away from that day going like, what am I supposed to do tomorrow now? Or he would have made a fictional Spielberg, Spielberg's out to him. Fuck fucking Spielberg. He thinks he can pan better than me.

[01:37:02] He's trusting my location. He's got services in my shot. I mean, his famous Oscar speech where he's like this and some of the other recent events have threatened to turn me into something of an optimist. And he says it so begrudgingly.

[01:37:14] No, I was in the worst thing Martin Scorsese has ever directed, the pilot for HBO's Vinyl. I know. And there was- It's the worst. I think it is, I think it is. And- It's so dumb, it's pretty darn watchable. It's certainly the best episode of Vinyl,

[01:37:28] stiff competition there. But there's a boardroom meeting scene with like 12 speaking parts. And there was a moment where everyone's just waiting. And like his whole thing is like, I really can't focus. I have to just think about all this stuff in my head.

[01:37:43] So when I come out of the video village, please everyone just be quiet, right? And he's always like, it's not a diva thing. It's not a respectful silence thing. I just have a hard time focusing. So he comes out and everyone just sort of like holds

[01:37:55] and looks at him. And he's like waiting for the command of what's gonna be next, right? And the whole camera team's waiting for what the next setup is. And he stands there and he just starts pointing at different corners and like going like this.

[01:38:09] And Cannavale was like the one guy who sort of had the clout from the actors to be like, I can ask him the film nerd questions. He's like, Marty, what the fuck are you doing now? And he was just like,

[01:38:19] I just can't figure out the spatial geography of this. And it's Martin Scorsese. And he was like, I always just, I never remember where the fucking camera should be. And he was like, we do have that. And then, and he's like this fuck,

[01:38:33] there's a reason I don't do scenes like this. And he was like, you're being like self-effacing. And he's like, no, I usually like, it's a reason I'll do long steady cam shots and stuff. Cause I just always cross the line. I never know how to do it. Right.

[01:38:46] And it's like those guys truly, the secret is that every single time they don't think they know how to pull off that movie. It's both picking things you haven't done before to test yourself, but also remaining in that headspace of being like,

[01:38:58] I'm constantly learning to constantly be better. I could constantly evolve. The big sequence I feel like we need to talk about is the presentation of the, and New York, LA. Right. Oh yeah. Yeah. Which. Erotica. It's already like. Which you watch that now,

[01:39:16] if again, like I think the first time I watched it and was able to process it, not like as a kid. Yeah. Was like, oh, Paul Abdul jacked all of that for the cold hearted video. Oh my God. That's very true. And so many,

[01:39:28] and so many people have just taken elements of that. It really does. Yeah, you're right. It feels almost MTV in some elemental way. There's Michael Jackson moves in there. Yeah. So much. There's so much modern. I mean, we talked about this in the last episode.

[01:39:43] And the eroticism of it. Yeah. It's really lifted from his bit in the little Prince movie. Yeah. Oh, that whole thing. Yes. Is Michael Jackson. Yes. Michael Jackson. Yeah. Grabbed a lot from it. And to his credit, credited him. Right. Yeah. Totally, totally like shattered my mind.

[01:39:59] But that sequence is like, you've seen the glimpses of the show up until that point. And you're just like, this thing's so fucking corny. It seems corny. The producers are so happy with it. The pitch of it is bizarre. Right. The producers are actually into it. Right. Right.

[01:40:11] And you're just like, you know he's not going to settle for this, but is he going to fuck it up? Right. And you get to that presentation where you're like, wow, he made it better. They all start applauding and then fucking more smoke.

[01:40:21] And they're like, I'm sorry to inform you, this is not over yet. Yeah. And then fucking lights go down. I mean, that sequence is like 10 minutes. Both that and the final number are like 10 minutes. Are interestingly long. Yes. Like American and Paris level sort of like, yes.

[01:40:37] Demanding patience from the audience that I feel like does not usually happen anymore. Like it's like everyone, you know. Yeah. And this thing of like this relentlessness of like how do you heighten this more now? I mean, the last 40 minutes of the movie

[01:40:49] are the stacking of all the death dream numbers. But like, I remember the first time I saw it. How do you go from here? Feeling exhausted and not in a negative way, but in a sort of like that movie

[01:40:59] is not something I want to throw on all the time. Like you feel really like, you know, wiped out by the end of it. And that sequence too, I mean, first of all, like if you don't like musicals, stay for the most incredible naked people

[01:41:12] you'll ever see in your life. Everyone looks great. Everyone looks great. And then like, there's also like the same sex couples that are dancing together. Like it's just, it is this like smorgasbord of like just. It still feels scandalous. It still feels modern and striking.

[01:41:28] And it is, it's this thing that like these movies often struggle with. Movies about complicated geniuses. The Mr. Holland's opus problem, right? When you see the person's big work, do you believe that it's that fucking good? That everyone's like. Right, and especially because he's not like

[01:41:46] restaging his own number, you know? He's not like having it be Pippin. They're making up a fake musical and he's like going to the far edge and it's all just summed up by the fucking reaction. What's the name of the actress who plays the wife?

[01:41:59] Who was mostly a Broadway actor. Leland Palmer, who's so good. And just that one fucking reaction. Which is funny because that's the name of a character in Twin Peaks. Yes. Yes, anyway. But yeah, who's mostly a Broadway person, right? Like she was in Pippin.

[01:42:10] She was in Joyful Noise. She was in Hello Dolly back in the day. She's wonderful. She is, yes. Just that like fuck you, it's the best thing you've ever done. To be clear, I think the Twin Peaks is a reference to her.

[01:42:22] Because I think David Lynch is secretly a nerd about that stuff. Yeah. I mean he cast Russ Tamblyn and Richard Bamer in Twin Peaks. Like there's all that quiet stuff in it. I never watched Twin Peaks, I didn't know that. They're both in it.

[01:42:34] And not playing singers or dancers. That's crazy. And you just, I don't know. I don't know if anyone's ever asked Lynch were you like a big musical nerd? He never answers things like that directly. No, it's true. He doesn't say,

[01:42:46] how much would you pay for David Lynch's West Side Story? I would love to see that. That would be great. Yeah, I mean his musical, when he does musical sequences in his movies that are so good you imagine him doing a top to bottom musical.

[01:43:00] All right, we should play the box office game, Griffin. Yeah, I just wanna say, I just think we've talked about the ending a lot. But like it really is 40 minutes, like the last 40 minutes of the movie from when he goes under pretty much, right? Sure.

[01:43:14] When he's like going through the stages of grief and all that, yeah. Because he essentially has like the heart attack like an hour in. Yeah, sure. The things I forgot about rewatching it were the wandering the hospital scene. Right, right. There's a 20 minutes of-

[01:43:26] Where he like hugs the old lady and kisses her. Right, right. Like my brain blocked off. Yeah, there's that moment where he's bleeding out on the wall. Yeah. And then him finding the other hospital employee in the commissary and doing the musical number with him.

[01:43:44] But yeah, but then you get that last 40 minutes that just like builds and builds and builds and builds and builds. And then as much as it is like in so many ways, a tough watch, an exhausting movie, there's something about like the weird level of triumph

[01:43:59] to Bye Bye Life, even though it is so cynical and bleak. Like the fact that both of them look like they're having the time of their fucking lives. And you have that thing that always fucking gets to me, the like big fish thing of like,

[01:44:14] oh, when you die, you see every single person you ever knew. They're all just fucking there. You know, it's your whole life story in this moment. And they do the thing too, where it's like Keith Gordon is there as the younger version of him as a separate person.

[01:44:27] And then just like that just building to such an exuberant high. Yeah, and then he's dead. And then he's just fucking dead and you play Ethel Murray. Zip him up. Smash cut. How else are you gonna do it? God, I just imagine audiences just walking out

[01:44:40] like shell shocked. I don't know. That's what I imagine. It was a hit. Maybe I'm, you know. It's just, I wish we could have things this demanding of an audience in theaters all the time right now. Not that I don't like movies right now.

[01:44:53] Not that I don't be excited by it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know. Let's play the box office game. Lynn, we're gonna try and guess the top five from Christmas 1979 essentially, which is when this movie came out. This is the month before I was born. There you go.

[01:45:09] Okay, okay. Okay. Do you know what movie was number one at the box office? There's that site. I know a beetle got arrested for pot the day I was born. I think it was McCartney or Harrison. I don't remember which one.

[01:45:20] There's that site where you can enter your birthday and it'll tell you what was number one at the box office. Of course, right. Mine was The Burbs. I think mine was Top Gun. Okay. Number one at the box office is a science fiction film. In 1979.

[01:45:35] We covered it on our Patreon. A science fiction film we covered on our Patreon. It's a movie called Alien. No. What? It's not Alien. It's not Alien. We covered it on our Patreon. It's 1979. But Alien is 1979. It is, but this is a film I stick up for.

[01:45:48] This is a movie that you stick up for. A lot of people think it's boring. Oh, it is called Star Trek The Motion Picture, aka the motionless picture because they think it's boring. How do you feel about Star Trek 1? The original, never seen it. Never seen it.

[01:45:59] Are you a Star Trek guy? You're not a Star Trek person. No, I'm a Wars guy. That's fine. I only started really getting into it because of the podcast. Star Trek rules. Good stuff. Motion picture is great. We've talked about it.

[01:46:10] Number two at the box office is a comedy starring one of your favorite people. Is it Gene Wilder? Nope. Is it a Steve Martin? Yes. Is it The Jerk? It's The Jerk. One of the best comedies of the week. This is a pretty good top five.

[01:46:23] He hates these cans. He hates these cans. Number three at the box office is the biggest hit in 1979. It's gonna win Best Picture. It's new this week. Kramer versus Kramer. It's coming out this week. Wow. Number four, it's a Disney movie.

[01:46:36] It's kind of a famous sort of flop for them. Animated or live action? Live action. It's a live action flop in 1979. It's one of those things that they keep saying they're gonna remake it. Oh, The Black Hole. The Black Hole. You've never seen that, right?

[01:46:49] I have seen The Black Hole. Oh, you finally have. I did. I watched it. It's on Disney Plus. I was trying to convince people to watch it. But you've seen The Black Hole. Very boring. Interesting. I'm surprised because I watched it when it was up on Disney Plus

[01:46:59] and I reached out to you and I was just, I reach out to you. I sound emissive over your way. And I said, David, have you seen this fucking thing? This is the kind of boring sci-fi movie you love and it's even too boring for you.

[01:47:09] It's too boring. I can't believe they released that. It's got an incredible mood to it. It's just the most slowly paced movie I've ever seen. What kid doesn't want to see this? Yes. Roddy McDowell and Slim Pickens as robots. Borgnine. Borgnine's in it. Yeah.

[01:47:24] It's about a space station that's falling into a black hole. It looks incredible. It does look really cool. Yeah, it's got a cool vibe. Number five at the box office. A comedy drama starring two major movie stars. It is actually a hit,

[01:47:39] but I don't think it's well remembered. It's from a big director. It's from a big director. It's actually a hit. It was 1979. It's a comedy drama. It features an actress from Lenny. It features an actress from Lenny, but not Valerie Perrin? Valerie Perrin is in it.

[01:47:54] What movie is this? It's Redford. I was just looking at her fucking film. Oh, it's Electric Horseman? It's the Electric Horseman. Never seen it. Redford and Fonda. Yeah. It's like a Western comedy, right? Right. Pollock made like seven. Sidney Pollock, yes. Redford's? Yeah.

[01:48:09] He made a lot of movies. He made a lot of Redfords. Some other movies. Steven Spielberg's 1941. Apocalypse Now. The Rose, the Bette Midler movie. Sure. Something called Cuba with Sean Connery. Never heard that. Cuba. Cuba, I'm going to Cuba. Am I Cuban? No, okay, good. Thank God.

[01:48:30] Don't complain. Am I Cuban? Yeah, it's like a Cuban Revolution movie. I've never heard of this. Richard Lester. Part heaven, part hell, pure Havana. That's the tagline. It is a good tagline. Like for dirty dancing Havana nights, that would have been a great tagline.

[01:48:50] Sure, it was a huge bomb. Part heaven, part hell, all dirty. All dirty, all Havana. That's it, we did the box office. What were the other, I need to ask, what were the other top 10 of 79? Oh, you want like 1979 in film? Kramer versus Kramer, All That Jazz.

[01:49:07] All That Jazz is in the top 20. It's not in the top 10. Amityville Horror. Oh sure. Rocky II, Apocalypse Now, Star Trek, Alien, 10, which is a huge hit. Humongous. Karina Longworth was just talking about it on her podcast, The Jerk, Moonraker, and The Muppet Movie is the top 10. Whoa.

[01:49:26] That's quite a tagline. I love The Muppet Movie at our film series too. Who did you have as a guest? I had Lonnie Price. Kermit. No, okay, Kermit. I gotta go to, that theater is so cool. Oh no, I'm lying, we had Muppets Take Manhattan.

[01:49:39] That's why Lonnie Price was there. Oh yes, yes, yes. That fits a Manhattan screening series. Also, it's the one about putting on a Broadway show. It's the one about putting on a Broadway show. And the way it fucking rolls. Gregory Hines just does a jogger in the park.

[01:49:52] I mean, there's so many great. It's so funny to me that, I don't know if you had this same experience as well, but being a Muppet kid, I would later, when I saw the things that people were best known for,

[01:50:06] be like, oh, that's the jogger from the park in Muppets Take Manhattan, rather than the intended effect, which is, that's Gregory Hines as a jogger. Yeah, it's did they host The Muppet Show? Right, that's what I know them for.

[01:50:16] I knew Kenny Rogers as the one time host of The Muppet Show. Right, I was like. That's the best rendition of The Gambler you'll ever see. Where they have a puppet play The Gambler and he dies in the train carriage. Go watch that. It's great.

[01:50:30] I'm gonna Google that. It's great. No, I remember just being like, well, Vincent Price, obviously, one of the biggest movie stars of today. And my parents were like, he died five years ago. And I was like, what? He was on the fucking Muppet Show.

[01:50:38] He was on The Muppet Show. I knew it was an old episode, but I was like, Vincent Price is probably still relevant to other six year olds right now. My God, look at this. This is very haunting. What are you looking at? The Kenny Rogers. Yeah.

[01:50:49] The puppets are sort of very sad. Yes. He's like, old man puppets. There are fucking sad numbers in The Muppet Show. Yeah, they weren't afraid to go there. Time in a Bottle. You remember that one? Yeah, look at that. Yeah.

[01:51:00] It's just a straight up music video of the song The Gambler with weird human puppets. Yeah. Yeah, good for Kenny Rogers. The best. Okay, Lynn, thank you so much for doing this podcast. It's my pleasure. Thank you for indulging us. It means a lot that you listen.

[01:51:18] It's very bizarre. You DM both David and I after listening to specific episodes and would comment on, oh, I listened to an episode, very touched by the things you had to say. I listened to this episode. Here's my insight on this thing or whatever.

[01:51:32] I thought it was cool that you did Ron and John. That's just like really, that was... It felt like important. Yeah. And they felt like the most auteurish of the Disney Renaissance. They're the easiest way to get into that period. Right. Especially since they always did different stuff.

[01:51:48] Every project that they would do is different. And now they're doing something else maybe? One of them is doing a movie at Netflix. I know they retire, but now there's rumors of unretirement. Them announced a Netflix movie. Have you interacted with them for Little Mermaid? Are they involved?

[01:52:03] No, not really. No, I wonder. I said this to you at the time, I think. I DMed this back to you. But when we were in a weird transitional stage with this podcast and we were trying to move networks and we were tangled up in weird contract stuff

[01:52:16] and we're fucking sweating bullets over a podcast that was not making anyone any money, but that we wanted to keep doing, right? Angela Farragutta, who ran our social media at the time, we had just done our Wonder Woman episode. We talked about the weird parallels

[01:52:32] between Wonder Woman and Moana. Oh, I don't think I caught that one. And she did this thread of like Wonder Woman gifs under Moana lyrics or something. Of like, oh, the girl on the island who dreams about sailing out and all this sort of stuff.

[01:52:45] And you retweeted this. And it was like the first thing we did that had any sort of virality out of our bubble and it really, really fucking helped us. Oh, that's great. It was absolutely a thing where like- It's not a big deal.

[01:52:57] You checked your notifications at the right point in time and out of generosity just flipped the fucking thoughtless retweet. But it was very, very helpful. All that to say, you've done so much for us already. You've been so considerate in giving us this time. There is an ask.

[01:53:15] And Ben almost burned this. Yeah. Sounds so sad. No, no, it's two o'clock. I know. I'm fine. Okay, okay. Well- This is all we're gonna say. David is wearing a t-shirt right now that has a list of nicknames on it. Dooster Ben, Ben Dooster. Right. Mr. Hazard.

[01:53:35] But there's one of these nicknames that is particularly relevant today. Yeah, is it on here? Yeah, yeah, Birthday Benny. Birthday Benny. Now, I don't know if you know this. Today is Ben's birthday. Thank you so much, Len. Appreciate it. We've been very excited about doing this episode.

[01:53:49] And I'm just fucking putting him on blast now. Several times over the last month, Ben has verbalized to me what his greatest birthday wish is. I'm ready. Well, I thought it might be fun and no pressure. But if, Len, if you maybe wanted to do

[01:54:06] like a birthday rap for me or something. He's said this multiple- Ben texted this to the Blank Check thread and I said, guys, I can't come tomorrow. I just checked my schedule. If you're gonna do that. They were trying to bail out of the episode.

[01:54:18] Oh, you're gonna do that? Oh, I can't come. Anyway. I'll give you your present off mic. Perfect. Why don't I do, I can just sort of, I'll do a version of The List. Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you want The List? Yeah.

[01:54:35] Yeah, I think I better give you The List. Well, thank you for being- This is sort of like, you know, Weird Al at the end of his shows does this like eagle oogle aga and it just gets longer every time he tours. This is- Really?

[01:54:46] Does he do that? I should go to a Weird Al show. Oh my God. Right now he's on tour where it's no parodies. It's just the John Carragher. Oh, it's just like his- It's all the deep cuts. It's fucking incredible. I was at the first night.

[01:54:59] I'm seeing him, what is it? The 29th? I think he's coming to Carnegie Hall in like September. Yes, I think that's when I'm seeing him. He does like 40 costume changes, right? Not in this tour. No, this tour is not that-

[01:55:08] Well, every tour he has like a new kind of idea. Cause he did one that it was like we're doing full string orchestration for everything. Right. This tour is the only original one. There's so many, I can't fit it on a screen. He's gonna have to scroll.

[01:55:17] Give him my laptop. Okay. So embarrassing. I was at the Radio City Hall. I don't know if you only did this one. The one where you came out and just said Yoda? Yeah, yeah. That was great. That was a great show. I was sitting next to Tina Fey.

[01:55:31] I did not know Tina Fey. Yeah. And you know, during the sequence, during the costume changes they always play kind of like Weird Al in pop culture on the screens. Yeah, sure. Jeopardy mentioning Weird Al. And they played the Weird Al writing the lyrics to the 30 Rock theme.

[01:55:46] And I will love Tina Fey forever for this. When that showed up on screen, she went, fuck yeah! Like totally sincere reaction. Totally sincere, like yeah, I'm on screen. That's the best. Yeah. Cause the cool thing would have been to be like, oh, embarrassing. I know.

[01:56:03] And she was like, rawr! I don't believe I put that on. Yes, that's the appropriate reaction to things. Yes, yes. Oh my God, I'm gonna have to scroll. There's too many. There's too many nicknames. I feel like one of you needs to give me a B.

[01:56:17] I think it has to be Ben. Okay, do you want it fast or do you want it slow? Slow. Okay. Just like Christmas. Yeah, do you know about Slow Christmas? No. Oh, Len. Every year Ben puts out a Slow Christmas album. He thinks Christmas songs are too fast.

[01:56:34] Slow him down. He did an album. Chopped and Screwed. The first year was Chopped and Screwed Christmas. He took Christmas songs, he chopped and screwed them in editing. Second year, he hired musicians, had them record songs at a slower tempo. Man, you really contain multitudes. I do.

[01:56:48] I'm glad to know you. Happy birthday. Thank you so much. Okay, here we go. Slow like Christmas. Producer Ben, Purdue-er Ben, the Bendusa, the Poet Laureate, the Meat Lover, the Tie Breaker, the Fart Detective, our finest film critic, the Peeper Birthday Benny, Hello Fennel, now Professor Crispy,

[01:57:14] the Flock Master, Turnpike Benny, White Hot Benny, Soakin' Wet Benny the Hots, Mr. Positive, Mr. Hositive, close personal friend of Dan Lewis, that's the hottest shit, the Poison Reason, Santa Hoz, the Commission Wishful Ben, Hosleywood, the Futsa, Pur-Pur-Pur-Dusa, and the Bass Stealer, Pur-Pur-Pur-Dusa Ben, Kenobi, Kylo Ben,

[01:57:38] Ben-I-Sham-A-Long Ben, say, say Ben-y-things, Ailey Benz, Warhouse, Purdue-er Bane, Ben 19, the Fennel Maker, the Shit's Insane, Robo-Haz, Benglish, Mr. Bing-credible, Eat Ben, Drink Ben, Eat Drink Ben, Hosley, Beetle Vape, Juice the Hosler Day, Public Venom, Me's House, sick of the Ditch of New Jersey, but anyway,

[01:58:01] stop making Ben's, Hoss, drinking the city, Ben Hosley, the secret lights of Ben's, the great mouse, Frog Detective Kid, the Hoss-break kid, Ben's in the Hoss, Ben's escape from New Hoss, Bronco Hosley, Bronco Benny, you motherfuckers, with Doobie Ben, Benny Lang, not, say, Ben-y-thing, not a temperature queen,

[01:58:20] Osama Ben Hosley, Ben-y-thing, Ben-y-thing, Dr. Crunchy, oh, I'm in the rejected Nicknames, Happy Birthday, Ben, this song is fucking insane. Wow. Sorry, I went into the rejected Nicknames. No, okay. Truly the best birthday present of all time. Wow, thank you, Lin. Thank you.

[01:58:42] That is truly the dumbest thing I imagine you've ever had to do. You'd be surprised. I've had some morning show, Oh my God. Interviews where, and I always say, you have to provide the beat if you want me to freestyle, and then you get, you know.

[01:58:56] It's a BYOB role. Thank you again for doing this. Yeah, thank you. Now I will eat my bagel without fear of making noise. I'm gonna eat my bagel. I'm just gonna. I could do the outro. Hey, anything you wanna plug? You have anything? I got nothing. Great, fantastic.

[01:59:09] Encanto is on Disney Plus, and your kids have already seen it. No, I think it could use the boost. I heard the album isn't doing particularly well. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. Thank you to Marie Barty for our social media

[01:59:23] helping to produce the show. Thank you to AJ McCann, Alex Barron for our editing, Layne Montgomery and the Great American Novel for our theme song. Thank you to Joe Bowen, Pat Rounds for our artwork, JJ Burch for our research compiling another great fossier.

[01:59:37] You can go to BlankCheckPod.com for links to all sorts of real nerdy shit including blank check special features or Patreon feed where we do commentaries on franchises like the Batman movies. Yeah, I guess we're still doing that. We're just finishing this up. We're wrapping it up. Yeah.

[01:59:52] Tune in next week for Star 80, one of the bleakest movies ever made. I love it, because I'm a glutton for punishment. Yep. And as always, I still cannot believe you did the fucking podcast. Long time fan.