Basic Instinct with Miriam Bale

[00:00:01] Blank Check with Griffin and David, Blank Check with Griffin and David Don't know what to say or to expect All you need to know is that the name of the show is Blank Check

[00:00:20] Let me ask you something, Rocky. Man to man. I think she's the podcast of the century. Rocky? That's how it's really, he calls her Rocky. My Douglas is not very good. That's one of the worst ones. It wasn't really, I didn't even know you were doing him really.

[00:00:37] I guess you just do a lock job. No, but now I'm sounding like a... He's got a very specific voice and you're not doing it. I can't do it either. I can't do it either. It's a bit greasy. It is greasy. Everything about it is greasy.

[00:00:50] We've talked about our... How much of a run he's having at this point in his career. We talked about in a previous episode how incredible it was that he became such a major movie star just being a piece of shit.

[00:01:00] That was his whole brand was just like, what a piece of shit this guy is. He loves to grit his teeth though. It is a lot of like... Yeah. Fuck you. I can't do it though. Whatever. Hello everybody. My name's Griffin. I'm David Sims.

[00:01:14] This is Blank Check with Griffin and David. No, we love it when guests talk before they're introduced. You have a point you're burning to make. Please. I was just going to introduce myself but I didn't wait so go ahead.

[00:01:24] No, no, no, it's totally fine. You're killing it so far. This is what we like. It's perfect. This podcast called Blank Check with Griffin and David. On it we talk about filmography.

[00:01:35] Directors who have massive success early on in their career and were issued a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. And sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce baby. And this is a mini-series on the films of Paul Verhoeven in Hollywood. True.

[00:01:49] And this is part of the midpoint. Right? Up until now, all hits. This continues the street. Including this. Yes. Mini-series is called Pod Ship Castors. And today we're talking about the movie Basic Instinct. Yep. And our guest today. Alright. I'm Miriam Vale. Hell yeah. Hell yeah it is.

[00:02:07] Guests should introduce themselves all the time. Yeah, it's an interesting... We're terrible at introducing and we're like, oh they're a great person and hello. I like the thoughts their brain make. We're very bad at introductions.

[00:02:20] I feel like I'm caught that I haven't listened to the podcast in a while. Totally fine. Get ready for a lot of bullshit. I'm actually a lot of bullshits and we'll play some for you. Yeah. Okay, let's get back to it. And we're back. It's been 50 hours.

[00:02:34] We've listened to the entire back catalog and she is not amused. No, she left. Yeah, she asked if we could reschedule. We weren't lying, this is a no-bits podcast. No-bits. Miriam, you're a very big Verhoeven fan. Yeah, but yeah, I was sort of late to him.

[00:02:55] I didn't really become a big fan until I saw this movie like seven years ago or so. I think before that I'd seen Starship Troopers, which I really, really liked and I'd seen Showgirls, which I was not as enthusiastic as some of my friends about.

[00:03:14] Then I saw this and then I like his more recent. Oh no, I saw actually, I saw the World War II movie somewhere around the Black Book. Yeah, because that's about 10 years old at this point. Maybe 11 years old. Yeah, around there too. But I love his most recent.

[00:03:33] I really totally loved and I love his instinct. I think it's like such a masterpiece. They're probably the most twinned, right? Like if El had a sister in his Hollywood genre. 100%. In the same way that Robocop and Starship Troopers are twinned, you know? Yes, sure.

[00:03:51] Yes, they're definitely paired films. Although this is more of like an out-and-out genre exercise. This is such a noir movie. For sure. Well, I think El is too. I was watching them again and well for me that his something I know just while I was watching

[00:04:11] El is how much like it reminded me of the Oshima movie Max Monamour. I have never seen it. I know it but I've never seen it. It is so good and it just follows the basic structure of this like French. The one with the monkey. Exactly.

[00:04:26] Like a French bourgeois adultery drama except it's about Charlotte Rampling having an affair with a chimpanzee. Right, right. An ape I should say. A monkey. A monkey. Chimpanzees are apes. So sorry. And so it's sort of this weird parody of that kind of genre of that like adultery

[00:04:46] and I feel the same about like the music in the beginning, the certain classical music, the broken china, her house. I feel like El is a really like what Verhoeven did for American movies with like Robocop and with noir with this he did for French.

[00:05:03] I've made the same point in a previous episode. I believe you have. Yes. I agree 100 percent because I saw El with my mother who was French and is not a huge Verhoeven fan but knows how much I love him and she couldn't stop getting over how

[00:05:16] well he got not just French culture but French movies. Yeah. And how well he was aping and sort of deconstructing the French erotic thriller. And I was like, yeah, that's what I've been telling you forever. This guy is an outsider who knows it better than the insiders. Sure.

[00:05:32] And it was really interesting his that outsider looking at the culture in this because I hadn't seen Robocop in total recall until just this week. Oh really? Awesome. Yeah. Even though I mean so I say I'm a fan but I hadn't caught up on them.

[00:05:46] And and that was really interesting to see his like use of television which is more like overt parody especially in Robocop. And and then then here it's so much more subtle like the TV is in the background. But it's totally an essential part of it.

[00:06:03] It's really it's interesting how it how it's related to those two. Yeah, this is definitely more subtle in its satire than Robocop in total recall which are arguably as much comedies as they are action films and sci-fi films. You know? Yeah, well I would say subtle.

[00:06:21] I mean it's not so subtle in its noir parody but also there's the weird like cowboy bar thing that's when he's like oh America is so funny. Yes. I'm from the Bay Area. I haven't not seen a lot of cowboy. I was going to say that character George.

[00:06:37] So I don't do Zunza. I forget how you say his name which I feel bad because I love him. There's that amazing thing watching this movie. It's like he lives in Alabama like he like gets in his car every night, you know,

[00:06:49] from the Bay Area and he's like I'm going to go home. He goes into his ranch. He drives to Tuscaloosa. Where who is he supposed to be? I know there are like you know there's like Salt of the Earth Irish guys in the Bay Area too.

[00:07:01] It almost feels like an earlier draft of this movie took place in a different town. Yeah, maybe. And then they rewrote it and kept him in Montana. But I mean, well anyway, I just think if he's making this more parody, you need to have those guys.

[00:07:14] You need to have those guys with like the snap brim hats. He doesn't have a hat. You know what I mean? Like the sort of rotund suspenders guys who are like what are you doing? But you know it's broad. She's no good, you know.

[00:07:25] There is that thing I love in this movie because this is so much the iconic Sharon Stone movie. You forget that she wasn't a huge star before this movie. So Michael Douglas is the only one above the title in the opening credits.

[00:07:39] So it goes like Douglas, then basic instinct, then Stone and you're like, wow, Stone didn't even like crack above the title and then Duzunza. Yeah, yeah, sure. And it's like Stone and Duzunza are vaguely on equal playing field at this point. Duzunza. I think it's just like Duzunza.

[00:07:54] Because he's, it's a, I'm assuming it's a Polish name. Probably, yeah. Or Ukrainian maybe. Anyway. He's so good in this. He's really good in this. He's awesome in this. He's my favorite character, bro. I love him. Yeah, I mean he's definitely. You're meant to be everyone's favorite character.

[00:08:09] Absolutely. Unquestionably the most empathetic character. Like he's kind of the only person in this movie who isn't a psychopath, right? That's true. Right. He's a much more predictable, reliable kind of person. Right. He's just a guy. He's got as simple vices in life. He loves this cowboy bar.

[00:08:25] Just let him do his thing. Let's just talk about Gus, Detective Gus. When he gets to that, yeah. We're just going to spend the whole episode talking about this thing, the cowboy bar.

[00:08:34] But I like that when he gets to the bar, he's almost pissed off that Douglas is like intruding on the one thing that gives him joy. Like he's just here drunk, wearing a big 10 gallon hat and Douglas has to come in with his like, I slept with her.

[00:08:46] And it's like fucking shit. Yeah, with his like 80s shit. He's like basically covered in cocaine. He's like, what's going on? He's like, I have my nice B plot here. Then he starts screaming about like post-iena diner or whatever, right?

[00:08:58] That's when Michael Douglas is like, all right, chill out. Wait a second. Jesus. Yeah. Anyway, we'll get to all that. This is an Esther House movie. This is the first of the two Esther House collaborations and it definitely shows in the Furby it shows

[00:09:13] in almost every single line of that look. Sure. Yeah. I mean he'd been around for a while because he wrote fist, flash dance. Right. I'll see. A Jagged Edge, right? Yeah. Hearts of Fire. Sorry. Okay. What's an example of Esther House in the movie? Magna cum laude pussy.

[00:09:33] And I'd say that's kind of like, that's what they'll put on his tombstone. That's a pretty good one. He was the magna cum laude pussy of screenwriter. Showgirls is where he challenged himself to make every line one of those lines, right? Right. Yeah.

[00:09:48] But even just that opening bit when they find the dead body and they say like so he got off before he got off. Yeah. No, I was about to say that. Yeah. Cum stains all over the seat. Very impressive. And then Gus like almost runs into me.

[00:10:04] He got off before he got off. They're not going to say that. Sorry. I'm really blowing up the mic. But like after this discussion of just like how much cum there was and the moment of the guy putting on the night vision goggles.

[00:10:16] Not only how much cum there was a slow pan across the stains with you know, corpse's penis in shot. Verhoeven's not really fucking around. At all. Summer release, isn't it? Maybe not. March. March, okay. But yeah, that's how this movie opens is full tilt like Verhoeven sex.

[00:10:37] This like very bizarre sex scene that becomes like I feel like 10 years of shitty stand-ups doing jokes about like, you know, real sex isn't the way they make a sex look in the movies, you know, in the movies it's always like. Like, you know, they're red shoe diaries.

[00:10:54] Definitely. Right. Well, when it finishes act. I was going to see where it was going. Ben's here. Producer Ben's here. The Ben Deuces here. The producer Ben is here. The poet Laureate. The husband, Mr. Positive. Mr. Positive. The Tiber. You know, they make sex look like the peeper.

[00:11:13] You know, like it's only had between attractive people in the movies. You can wish him a hello fennel. He's still my ex-girlfriend. He's graduated from the course of different mini-cers. I don't know, I'm just working out my type five dated. I love Ben, producer Ben Kenobi.

[00:11:27] What do you think? Ben Niteshawman one. When he does this, I look at my email. And say Benny Ben really goes with the dollar sign. No, I know. I'm talking to you though. I'm talking over. War haze. That's a new thing. Ben 19, the fennel maker.

[00:11:37] Are you into that? How about that Miriam? We got some stuff we gotta do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's it though, right? We're done. But also I'll say in that scene, that opening scene Gus has the great line that makes him so sympathetic about that he notices the Picasso.

[00:11:52] So he's like, we cultured and he's like, but hers is bigger. Yeah. Yes. He's got so many. There's also the line about the civic minded responsible cocaine, which I think is very funny. We have this very aesthetic over the top sex scene that's very similar to how Verhoeven

[00:12:12] depicts violence, which is like impressionistically, like having people behave in a way that isn't realistic to show what sex feels like rather than how sex looks. Sure. I do think you see the warning signs of his sex in showgirls in this movie where it's

[00:12:30] like, it's so exaggerated and athletic, you know, and like leaning towards like totally exotic, which is where he then tips over to. Overly aggressive and also like looks physically painful. Right. Like bodies aren't supposed to bend in that direction. It just sort of looks like a workout.

[00:12:51] You know what I mean? It looks like a workout. It looks like a real, it looks exhausting. Let's just put it that way. When also in the opening scene, we're not seeing her face so we can be sort of like in

[00:13:00] the dark as to whether it's her or not. Yes. And I find that somewhat distracting where I keep being like, no, yeah, okay still. There's a bit of a cousin-it thing going on. Yeah. Cousin-it, that's well known.

[00:13:10] And then of course she produces an ice pick and stabs him thoroughly through the face. Did you watch it on Netflix? Because they have the unrated cut on Netflix and it's got this horrifying like stab in the face. Oh no, I watched the Blu-ray.

[00:13:25] I don't know if it was right. The Blu-ray probably has it too. I think so. I think so. This point is the unrated. They had to edit out some of the like harshest stabs for the R-rated. Do you know what's the crazy stab I read?

[00:13:35] I cannot even begin to process. He has only had one movie that wasn't originally rated X out of his Hollywood films. There's only one film that he didn't have to go back and cut stuff out of. And it was Hollow Man, which honestly- Yeah, which is insane.

[00:13:51] Should probably be rated NC 17. But all the other ones were originally rated NC 17 and then most of them now the NC 17 version has become the circulated version. Right. Only one of them was released NC 17. Correct. Which one? Showcals.

[00:14:07] Which was sort of tried- they tried to be like, you know what? All right, fine. We're gonna see if that works. Like, oh, so hot, you know. Right. Sensors. But now it's like it's harder to find a theatrical version of Robocop or Basic Instinct. Right.

[00:14:21] So, right, very, very graphic, ice pick, a very, very specific weapon. This movie treats ice picks like their house keys. Sure. Like something that everyone- He says you can get it at a Kmart or whatever for a buck 95.

[00:14:37] Yeah, but also when's the last time you went over someone's place and they took out a giant block of ice and picked at it rather than just getting a fucking 99 cent ice cube tray? Maybe you knew the cocktail mixologist. Maybe they do it. You could remake it.

[00:14:50] Right now it's a heightened artisanal thing. You could do like a cocktail Basic Instinct crossover, like mashup about an ice pick murder. But you would have to do that. If you made this movie today, you would have to justify like, oh, he's really an artisanal cocktail.

[00:15:03] It's like you'd have to have like rhubarb in his shelf, you know? Yeah, he works at the cowboy bar. He does sex on the beaches over there. Right, it's an ironic cowboy bar. You know, speaking of bars, David, let's say hypothetically- Man walks into a bar.

[00:15:22] No, no, no. Sorry. I'm not a hack, okay? No street jokes on this podcast. All homegrown bits. Let's say hypothetically. I got a friend. Okay, a hypothetical friend. And that friend was passed to play a superhero based on an underground cult comic book, which

[00:15:40] was then turned into an animated Fox kid show. Yeah, a short lived sitcom in the early 2000s. You're talking about Griffin Nooms. No, it's a hypothetical friend of mine. Sure. Okay, and the character was historically a little more retunned. Uh-huh.

[00:15:56] And then the pilot came out and people were like, who was this guy fat? Yeah, you're a skinny guy. I'm talking hypothetically about friend. What's your hypothetical question? And then that person gained like eight or nine pounds and was like, oh, this is going to be great.

[00:16:09] All the friends are going to like thank me for like gaining weight to look like the character. I'm like the Robert De Niro of Superhero Satires. Hypothetically my friend said this. And then no one said anything good and then he just felt really tired.

[00:16:23] And so when hypothetically the show got picked up for second season, he was like, fuck that extra weight. I should just be in good shape. Yeah. Okay. Do you have a question? What would be like a good way to get in shape?

[00:16:36] Well, no, I'm just saying like, you know, cut down on the snacking to eat right. You eat garbage. I usually eat garbage. I don't mean to, you know, tag you here, but you don't eat good.

[00:16:47] They call me Billy Goat Griff because I usually eat out of garbage can. Would you rather eat like, like a whole food bar made with whole ingredients that like is upfront with the customer about like everything that goes into it? Yeah. Cause here's the thing.

[00:17:05] If I'm going to eat garbage, I want to know it's garbage, right? Sure. But then a lot of these protein bars, they pretend that they're healthy. Right. But they're just like, it's just like you're eating a Reese's peanut butter. It's the same junk. Wake up sheeple. Yeah. Okay.

[00:17:17] Our sponsor this week, Rx Bar. You're asking the question, but you love these things. You should be pitching me. They sent me a box. Yeah. I've been eating these things up like crazy. Yeah. I have fun eating them.

[00:17:27] I'm sitting on my couch in my apartment afraid to leave, haven't seen air in 36 hours because I have severe anxiety and the winter is bad for me. And I'm eating these bars. I'm going, she's got a smile on his face.

[00:17:44] That's because he's eaten protein bars that aren't filled with like preservatives and artificial ingredients. They got core ingredients to do the talking. I mean, if I had to do the math, I'd say, I don't know, simply like eating three egg

[00:17:57] whites, two dates and six almonds with no BS. I think that's on the label, right? Yeah. And here's the thing. Egg white protein, good source of protein, easy for your body to absorb. Right. Not bad for you. It doesn't make you feel like garbage. I notably hate eggs.

[00:18:11] Sure, you do avoid them. I mean, it's disgusting. But you like these bars because they're mixed in. I don't have to look at it. It binds the bar together and I go to the doctor and he goes, your blood works weird.

[00:18:20] It feels like you don't eat eggs at all. And I'm like, yeah, get that away from me. I eat these bars. I'm coming and he's going best blood I've ever seen. Great. And here's the thing I was surprised by a bit of a Shyamalan twist.

[00:18:30] Turns out real food ingredients actually tastes really good. Like rather than just artificial flavor. You can taste the cacao, the real fruit, the spices like sea salt. So they got like a chocolatey flavor. They got like six chocolatey flavors. They got like a berry flavor.

[00:18:46] They're lousy with it. Yeah. And they got savory. They got sweet. They got peanut butter. You know, all these things. I mean them a lot. Here's something else I know about our X bars. Yeah. They're gluten free. They're soy free. They're dairy free.

[00:18:58] But what does that concern you? They have no added sugar. Why is that concern you? Oh, well, the person I love is gluten free humble bread. So she's actually been eating the RX bar. She likes them. Really? She's been eating the RX bar.

[00:19:10] Yeah, I should start a little club. Yeah. And they're great for breakfast on the go. They're great for snacks at the office. They're taking them on the plane. Great if you're trying to lose eight pounds for season two of the tick.

[00:19:20] Just like for before workout or after workout. If you need an energy boost and you just snack. Seasonal effect of disorder makes you too scared to leave home. But you also don't want to call anyone for delivery because even that level of interaction is scary.

[00:19:32] You just pick out an RX bar. What was your favorite kind of bar? I mean look, let me say this. I'm a regular customer boy. So you give me chocolate peanut butter and I'm thrilled. All right, well, our listeners can get 25% off their first order.

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[00:20:02] And some of these other podcasts they're offering you deals. Oh, type in our promo code. It will cost an extra 50%. We're not doing that. We insist on 25% off this RX bar. We're giving you a full quarter off. What, 25 cents? No, a quarter of the price dummy.

[00:20:17] So for 25% off? Yeah. rxbar.com slash check. Enjoy. Lose those seven pounds per season too. Very relatable. Everyone can relate to that. So bloody murder and then immediately who they call in. The greasiest cop in San Francisco, Michael Douglas.

[00:20:32] Yeah, fresh off like shooting someone while high on coke. Yes. Or like shooting two people or something. He's the worst person in the world. In a shootout, he was undercover in a drug bust where he got too deep and became addicted to cocaine himself.

[00:20:48] He shot two tourists and another cop and did not shoot the people he was supposed to shoot. What was he shooting at? Right. Then his wife committed suicide. They assigned him a therapist to work through his issues and he started a deporate sexual relationship.

[00:21:04] Immediately began an affair with her. With the therapist. He also bought a nice leather couch and put it in his crappy apartment. The most depressing apartment I have ever seen and I've lived in some depressing apartments.

[00:21:16] So he's not doing well but the movie doesn't care because he's Michael Douglas and that's his brand. Sure. I feel like when you see him with a v-neck sweater without a shirt on. I was gonna bring up that sweater. Oh my God. That fucking look. Such a look.

[00:21:31] It's like to me that if you need a snapshot of Michael Douglas, that's it. Yes. It's a deep green V. But a deep V. And I feel like the sleeves are rolled up. Maybe I can't remember. Yeah. And the V is kind of pulled down.

[00:21:47] It's a stretched V. I mean the clothes in this movie are very thought through. Like I would say in general. Yeah. I want to find it. Here it is. I found it. Yes. The sleeves. The sleeves are rolled up. Oh yeah. To a bar you wear this.

[00:22:04] Like what? This is your choice? Yes. Oh my God that's a picture of him dancing to like techno music with this rolled up. Everyone else, all the women are dressed in this like very expensive looking, you know, clothes. It's like a line light type bar.

[00:22:17] It's like a converted. What's the J crew? Right. But the bar looks like a converted church that's now decked out with neon. Yeah right. It's like a step away from like the matrix or whatever. Right. It's like they're in Zion. Right. And Douglas comes in and it's like.

[00:22:31] He really, he really makes it work though. I mean look at him. Yeah. What's your opinion on Michael, Maryam? Well, I think he's just the worst and he's so good at being the worst. Yeah he is. And he's always the same like this and fatal attraction.

[00:22:44] And he's so good at just being awful. But I was also obviously in this movie he's like, he brings up, he quotes his dad a lot because it's like a 50s noir. Yes.

[00:22:55] Always aware of Kirk Douglas and you're always aware that this is a noir but this is like this sleazy noir that's just like somehow related but fucked up and gross. Yeah right. Yeah it's like a coked up noir. There's this quote I remember.

[00:23:11] It's a noir who then accidentally shot a couple people and moved to a crappy apartment. Right. There's this quote I always remember about Adrian Lyon going to like a test screening of a fatal attraction and being frustrated at how much the audience was still on Michael Douglas' side.

[00:23:28] Right, right. Where he was like Jesus Christ, like they just saw you sleeping with another woman and they're still rooting for you. And he just had this thing where he owned being a piece of shit so hard but somehow like even if he wasn't sympathetic he was compelling.

[00:23:43] So I want to talk about him for a second. Yeah. Because his early career he was on this show The Streets of San Francisco and then he was like the young handsome cop guy.

[00:23:51] And then he's in movies and like I like him in the China syndrome where he's like the nice cameraman who's just like along for the show. Like he's not trying to dominate that movie at all. But you're missing a big step. Go ahead.

[00:24:02] The Kirk Douglas shadow loomed really, really large over. Right. He had a hard time making it and then he got Street to San Francisco but it was like that's a TV guy. Yeah. TV guys don't cross over into movies. He got really into producing.

[00:24:12] Yeah he produced one for the Cuckoo Snack. Which was meant to be a vehicle for him. Right. He kept on buying rights to things to try to make vehicles for himself and everyone was like we're not going to cast you, your fucking TV actor, get Nicholson in here.

[00:24:23] Right. So he wins an Oscar for producing one for the Cuckoo's Nest but is like frustrated that he wasn't in it. I think China syndrome he also produced or bought the rights to. Yeah he produced it. Right.

[00:24:33] He had to like fight his way into being a third leader of that movie. And he produced Romancing the Stone which is his big lead breakup. Which he's kind of like Indiana Jones if Indiana Jones was like a little more of a piece of shit.

[00:24:43] Indiana Jones is kind of a piece of shit. But he has that 10 year run where he makes himself a movie star through becoming a good producer first. But then this. And he's working his way into his own project. This run was what I want to talk about.

[00:24:54] It's like a fatal attraction and Wall Street in 87. Which is like back to back shit hell. Okay, right. And he wins Best Actor. Yeah Black Rain in 89 the Ridley Scott movie. The Wars, War of the Roses which is a bleak. It's great. It's a great movie but a...

[00:25:10] Yeah. And then Basic Instinct and in the 93 he has falling down and in 94 he has Disclosure. Which is sort of like Basic Instinct to Basic Instinct which was so bad. You know what I mean? Like a sex thriller with absolutely no intelligence whatsoever.

[00:25:24] So is this the end of his run? This is sort of... I feel like yeah, like this is the last good part of his run. And then like Disclosure is where he's like trying it one more time and it's like no forget it.

[00:25:33] Cause then in 95 he makes the American President which is him like playing a really like upstanding guy for once. And then it sort of becomes like warmed over cop thrillers. It becomes like don't say a word and like...

[00:25:44] Well, no but he's in the game which I love him. Oh right. I think that's a great movie. He's really good in that. I think that movie is a lot of fun. That movie is like what if you just fucked with that guy? Right.

[00:25:55] By that point he's kind of broken. Like that movie is like the sad shell of Michael Douglas. Yeah. And then he's in a perfect murder, you know, a terrible Dylan from Murder Remake. Yes. And then Wonder Boys, you know.

[00:26:07] And then right, then he's becoming like Daddy Douglas, you know, traffic. Right. Those sorts of gray haired Douglas. That's a big shift for him. Yeah. And now he's become more of a character actor. Well, he married Catherine Zeta-Jones. Yeah.

[00:26:22] He got cancer and everyone fell in love with him all over again. He's had a wild ride. It's crazy. But he started spending like... Now he's an ant man, you know. Yeah. Yeah. But also fucking Liberace behind the candle elbow which is so fucking good. Oh my god.

[00:26:36] That's a good performance. That's a really great performance. Soderbergh gets great performances out of him. And Soderbergh, like in 2000 when they were working on traffic was like, have you ever thought about playing Liberace? And it took him like 15 years to get that movie made. Huh. Yeah.

[00:26:50] And it had to be for HBO. It had to be for HBO and Douglas had like cancer remission, cancer. Yeah. Like they kept on pushing it off because that was like the big role for him. But other than that he's mostly been playing supporting stuff now. Yeah.

[00:27:03] He's elder statesmen and stuff. But this is as you were saying, like this is like shit, shit heel, you know, kind of charming, sweater wearing asshole Michael Douglas. He's also so creepy in this. Like something like... He's terrible.

[00:27:15] Like you look at, you look at fatal attraction where it's like, oh he's sleazy but he's like charming. That's the key to the whole movie. Whoa right. Like fatal attraction is like what if you cheated on your wife? What if bad stuff happened?

[00:27:24] This one's like what if you had shot a couple people and you were in a Coke spiral and then you decide to sleep with maybe a serial murder. Like every time he's on screen I just want to take out a garden hose

[00:27:33] and just like pin him against the wall and just fucking hose him down and be like, get your shit together. Is he even good at his job? Oh he's pretty terrible at his job. The person is pretty bad. This is what I think we call bad cops.

[00:27:46] Like a lot of people get murdered. Yeah. If you made up in sleeping with... He keeps on fucking sleeping. Suspects and with his psychiatrist. Psychiatrist, yeah. I mean I'm surprised he doesn't like make a move on George Shenzon's... Yeah.

[00:28:02] That scene where like Gus starts freaking out in the bar and like saying pussy a bunch. It's like I almost feel that as like a manic breakdown because he's like who the fuck are you? You have to stop doing this. Stop sleeping with everyone.

[00:28:14] He also has the exact same seduction technique in every scene which is just clenched jaw, unbroken eye contact, very slowly walking towards them. Like it's just a very deliberate shark in the water until he gets up next to them and then he's just like...

[00:28:30] I think that the key to his appeal is that he's kind of dumb and like in all of these roles there's something a little bit kind of charming or helpless about someone who's that dumb. Like even his like the fuck of the century line like he's like,

[00:28:45] I thought she was the fuck of the century. What did you think? Right. Something really... What do you think? He is dumb enough to walk out of very wild sex with Sharon Stone naked, walk into the bathroom, Roxy walks in, he just sort of reacts like,

[00:29:00] oh hey what's up? You know, like not like... Right. What is this? What is this? You're watching? Like what's this whole situation? Well also when you get to the later scene a little bit later with Sharon Stone when he's like,

[00:29:12] I mean that was the greatest of all time, right? And she was like, fucking idiot. It was fun. Sex whatever. Who's on top of you? Like what? This blows your mind? That's true. That scene is perfect. Yeah, she's really good. And that scene...

[00:29:25] She's so tame for just being like kinda glueless. He is. But so Sharon Stone we should say, she's in total recall, which I think she's so good in. I mean that's such a funny like version of this, like sort of proto version of this performance where she's giving,

[00:29:43] like her character is giving such a great performance. But like apart from that, she was a nobody. She was pretty much unknown. And Douglas signs on to this and says the only way the movie is gonna work is if we have someone of equal stature playing Catherine Tramiel.

[00:29:56] And he fought really hard to get an A-lister. He was really keen on Julia Roberts playing this part, which would have been a nightmare. Probably wouldn't really be bad. That's like hook era Julia Roberts. Yeah, like and I like Julia Roberts,

[00:30:06] but I also think this role cannot be played by someone who comes to the screen with any baggage prior to this movie. Imagine Julia Roberts in this movie. But she was never gonna do it. No, every actress turns it down.

[00:30:16] She had made Sleeping with the Enemy the year before, which is sort of like a kind of bad watchable version of sure like it's a whatever. It's like a sort of R rated thriller, I guess. Every established actress they offer to turn to down point blank.

[00:30:30] Just goes, I don't want to do this nudity. I don't want to play this character. You know, any of this, any of this. So Verhoeven who had worked with Sharon Stone goes, I think I know who it is. And Douglas was like, I'm not, she's a nobody.

[00:30:43] You can't cast her. She's not gonna be able to hold the screen against me. And had to do like vigorous screen testing to finally get him to sign off on her. And it's insane to think like this movie wouldn't exist if it wasn't her. No way.

[00:30:55] It wouldn't work. No, she would be shitty. Yeah. And even watching it now. It would be about like an asshole cop. Like that's it. It would just sort of be like a weird, yeah. Right. She was like Sharon Stone exists to be able

[00:31:06] to play this one role in this movie. Not that she hasn't given other good performances, but like this is why she was put on this earth. She's really good though. Really fucking good. When I've seen her in anything, she's really good.

[00:31:16] And she's also like has that same echo of like he echoes his father in this sort of inadequate way. And then, but she, I was thinking recently, I don't know you guys probably haven't seen the new movie that's about Gloria Graham have you?

[00:31:30] No, but I mean, I'm excited that what's it called? The Stars Don't Die in Liverpool. Yeah. It's okay, but somehow and at Benning gets the, doesn't quite get that Gloria Graham thing. They say that oh, she plays, she always plays the tart.

[00:31:45] And it's more like she's doing like a Marilyn Monroe or something. She gives this kind of little girl breathy kind of thing. And it's like the whole movie can kind of only conceive if the tardy blonde is like this Marilyn Monroe. And I was like, that's wrong.

[00:32:00] What was it that Gloria Graham was doing? And there's something. Gloria Graham was kind of dirty. She's kind of dirty. She's kind of knowing and there's kind of scratchy about her voice, not just girly. And I feel like this is something Sharon Stone really gets to.

[00:32:13] She might have been good. I mean, I saw she's in The Disaster Artist. You know, she has that one scene, which is a really funny scene. Yeah. I was angry that she wasn't in the rest of the movie. Right.

[00:32:22] Anytime I see her, I'm like, oh, I'd love, you know, I'd love a Stone Comeback. She makes like tons of movies, but they're all like, like direct-to-video type things. She's, I mean, a good actress and she also is one of those

[00:32:34] people who is fluent in camp when she needs to be. And I think it ended up hurting a reputation because sometimes people thought she went too big and thought she couldn't control it, that she didn't know what she's doing.

[00:32:46] But anytime she's big in a movie, I think it's very cannily done. I mean, she's very aware and she's playing to the size of the film. It's interesting that Basic Instinct 2 literally killed her career. Now if you're looking at her resume, like that's sort of

[00:32:57] the last big movie she was in. Yeah. Yeah. I guess that was her being like, well, I guess it's time to make this because... Because maybe Basic Instinct killed her career. It's both made and killed her career. Kind of did.

[00:33:08] Obviously after this, she has Casino and that's when she gets her Oscar nomination. That's her sort of like... She's good in the night. Right. Where she's like, I'm just going to amplify. Now I'm legit in it. And that's where Scorsese from everyone is just being

[00:33:21] more, just as big as you can go. And that's the thing. She's capable of going big. Like Sharon Stone is, if nothing else, capable of not holding anything back. My whole take on Casino is that's Martin Scorsese finally exercising his cocaine demons.

[00:33:35] He's like, let's just put it out there. This is what we're really like when we're doing that. Right. But then she has a really bad run of Diabolique. Well, even before then, because after this is Sliver, which is sort of... The bad version of this movie. Exactly.

[00:33:49] And then last section, Hero. Oh, that's just the cameo. You know, then the Specialist, which is another bad version of this movie. Yeah. Yeah. Quick and the Dead, which I kind of wish was a better movie. I've never seen it. The Raimi movie, the Western. Yeah.

[00:34:02] And then Casino and then Diabolique. You know, it's like all these where they're like, they're finding the right kind of Sharon Stone projects. They're kind of like ripping off basic instinct. They're ripping off that vibe. I think you're onto something though,

[00:34:15] where she exists as this really interesting neo-noir type. Right? Yeah. Where all the peak noir films are still made in an era where you could not be overtly sexual. It always had to be subtextual. You had to like toe the line of that Hayes code.

[00:34:34] And so the power of someone like Gori Gran comes from like inferring as much as you can without actually showing something or saying something. Yeah. And then Sharon Stone is that character with all the subtext removed. Like she's the fully weaponized version of the like femme fatale.

[00:34:48] Weaponized is exactly right. Right. She's like very aggressive and maximalist. And yeah, just super violent, super sexual. Like there's no double entendre. She's just like saying everything out in the open. Well, another person who was like that is Dorothy Malone who was in this movie.

[00:35:05] And I think the fact that I saw this movie after I had seen, when I saw this movie, I had seen way more Dorothy Malone movies than I had seen Verhoeven movies. Right. And so to me like her, she signaled exactly what was going on with this movie.

[00:35:19] This is like her last movie, right? Like I think it is and she's, I almost want more of her because it's such a good idea to have her as this. Such a good idea. Like the echo of the, you know, the past noir movies

[00:35:31] that like the previous femme fatale is like her buddy. Like so literally like she was her character Hazel Dopkins. Hazel Dopkins, yes. Like murdered someone in 1956. And like, you know, which was kind of the peak of Dorothy Malone's career when she was doing the Cirque movies.

[00:35:47] And I just love that. I feel like that's such a great echo of, and she's like another one, like the big sleep. I think Kim Morgan said something about like the big sleep is a movie about a sexy book clerk or something.

[00:36:02] Cause she's the book clerk who like dominates it with a, and she kind of takes it to the edge actually as far as like that sleaziness. And I'm in a lot of her performances, which I appreciate her official credit in the big sleep is Acme Bookshop

[00:36:16] Proprietress, which is a really funny credit. I just wanted to shout out. It's also like a sexy book clerk. That'd be great. Right at the beginning. Like, a little creditless. The iconic thing of this movie is that like,

[00:36:30] and I think it's iconic not just because it was like unprecedented at the time, but also just because of like the semiotic power of what it's saying is that like, whereas up until now you have people like making double

[00:36:42] entendres or like the way they smoke the cigarette is as sexual as you can get. This is a movie where someone literally like uncrosses their legs. And it's like there's nothing being held back anymore. I was going to say, and that's unusual in some ways,

[00:36:55] but it's also, I mean, I think that her, she really, she just later disowned that. She said that she did much later. She said she didn't know it was like against, she was, you know, way without consent. Like she didn't know it was being,

[00:37:10] and I am so, you know, I totally tend to, I believe women, but I kind of doubt that she didn't know what was going on because there's the whole line where she's like, you know, I don't wear underwear. There's before, we see her after the fact,

[00:37:25] right? Well, we see her dress and she's naked and just puts on a dress. And then right there's the thing. And like it's so, The dress that she's going to wear in that scene, you see her not wearing underwear. You know, right exactly. Yeah.

[00:37:35] And it's so obviously crucial, right? And it's funny because I remember I had heard a story maybe before or some interview with Verhoeven where they weren't sure if they were going to put the shot in because they were like, you know,

[00:37:47] this is obviously salacious stuff, you know, right? Like so. And then in the editing room, apparently the editor was like, well here's what it looks like. And he was just like, yeah, that's great. You know, like we should have this in the movie.

[00:38:00] I also think maybe she didn't know. I mean, I'm sure she didn't know what it was going to look like. She knew this was part of the script. Her argument that she made, what she made when she was making basic and single,

[00:38:12] when she was like on the press door for that, that's when she brought all this up was that he had asked her to take off the underwear because it was like it looked bad on camera or something. Like there was like a sheen that was like,

[00:38:22] and that she didn't know it was going to be, you know, a shot, like, you know what I mean? But it's odd to think about it as you say, because it seems so inherent to the whole first act of the movie is that she does that.

[00:38:35] So I don't know. I guess you could just have the sort of like, she uncrosses her legs, reverse shot them all freaking out. That's the thing. Like within the body of the film, she's not wearing underwear. And also she is an actress so deliberately plays that movie

[00:38:50] with that move, that movement with so much authority of the crossing and uncrossing of the legs. That it's like, how does she not... You do charge me for smoking? That's another Esther House classic. The other thing is it's like, I wonder if more of her regret

[00:39:05] stems from what that moment became. Well, obviously it's a defining part of a career. Right. Her career like now exists in the shadow of this one moment, there's one part of her body. Totally. And it works in the film so well. And it's like, it's in...

[00:39:22] It just works. And it also works in the film where she's in power of this moment, you know? And it's very like... I mean, that's why I love that scene so much, where it's the cops are basically like, so let me get this straight. Let me...

[00:39:32] You just had sex with the guy and you're not in love with him. And she's like, yeah, we were just fucking. And they're like, and you enjoyed this. You enjoyed the sex with the man for an extended period

[00:39:42] of like a year and a half, you were having sex with him. You know? And she's like, uh-huh. And Wayne Knight in the performance that should have won best supporting actor that year. God, the sweat from these guys. These are the greatest reaction shots

[00:39:53] I think I've ever seen in a film. You know, we talk about how Verhoeven cast these nerdy US Treasury agent looking guys as his villains in Robocop and Total Recall. And he's just got such an eye for those like, shlubby middle-aged cops. Chelsea Ross.

[00:40:08] Oh God, with like the sort of sweat pouring off him and like the button downs. Chelsea Ross, Bruce Young. What's his name from the X-Files? Mitch Pelegi. And Daniel von Bargen who is the guy who gets in the face of him. You know, the story that like Spielberg

[00:40:26] saw a basic instinct in theaters when he was prepping Jurassic Park. Oh, and he just loved the look away night. That's our ne'er any. No, because he said take that shot of him reacting in basic instinct and then make the reverse shot a T-rex

[00:40:40] and we have ourselves a picture. It's like that's how I want him to be cowering in fear. He had such a look away night. He downplays it so much though because it'd be so obvious, especially with like Verhoeven's like comically untapped like shlubby, pudgy, balding, whatever

[00:40:54] like pencil pushing types in these movies. Wainwright plays his reaction shots so seriously. Like it's so grim and dire and he's doing so little but his eyes are just like broken. He's got big, big bulgy. Yeah, and then the sweat is so good.

[00:41:11] And he just keeps on repeating that move over and over again like almost every single close up in that interrogation scene is like a crazy, flash push into their face. Regardless of who it is. It's really true. The pushes are so good. Pushing what she leans forward

[00:41:25] and pushes into her and they're sort of like it's so wonderfully choreographed. But he keeps on repeating that same movement over and over again. So like you cut to a Sharon Stone, it's a fast push in then you cut to Douglas, it's a little further away

[00:41:38] but you push in just as fast and he just keeps on like resetting and pushing. I also like that it's a shooting gallery for some reason like that's where they're interviewing you because you see the little outlines in the background and then

[00:41:50] and the fucking lighting on that set. It's unbelievable. This is Yann de Bons like right before he did camps and becomes his own filmmaker. Because we haven't mentioned he doesn't shoot Robocop or Total Recall but he was Verhoeven's original guy. He's Dutch too.

[00:42:07] You know, he shot a lot of the Dutch movies with him. He also shot Roar, which is funny to think about you know the movie where they like like made Tippi Hedgerton fight a lion or whatever. But I think he, Yann de Bons got to Hollywood earlier

[00:42:21] because he made Kujo and all the right moves. And then so yeah, so this is there like this is the one movie they make together in Hollywood and then from Flesh and Blood. I think the Bond had like a very serious injury on Roar. Yann de Bons?

[00:42:33] Yes, specifically he almost died on the film I think. A lion lifted his scalp requiring 220 stitches. Thank you. Have you seen Roar? No. Have you seen Roar? I still haven't. It's fascinating. I wanted to see it when it sort of did the rounds like a couple years ago.

[00:42:48] Yeah. For those of you who don't know, Tippi Hedgerton like remarried this man who was obsessed with lions and thought he had to make a movie about humans and lions. You did this movie though. Oh, Ben, you would fucking love this movie. Yeah, why?

[00:43:01] He like made this movie out of his own pocket over like five years starring his new wife and his new stepdaughter about them coexisting with lions and they just kept on getting mauled. They just had real lions. Wait, they got mauled?

[00:43:14] Yeah, the cast and the crew just kept getting mauled and he shut it down and then six months later he'd raise more money and make it like shoot another two weeks or whatever. Mald is such a word. Yeah, but they really like they got mauled on that movie.

[00:43:27] Tippi Hedgerton and Melanie Griffith, right? They're both in it. Yeah, yeah, it's fascinating. Those images, they just are playing around with these big lions like their house cats or something and they're so... They like lived in a Hollywood Hills mansion with giant lions.

[00:43:41] It's sort of like Grizzly Man S. It's like man has crossed a line here. It's fascinating because it's like watching the movie that Timothy Treadwell thought he was making in Grizzly Man. Right, right, right. Roar is the movie that like doesn't acknowledge

[00:43:54] the interests they are because he wants to make this like peaceful, harmonic coexistence thing but there's still footage where it's like that lion is trying to kill that person. There's another great lion movie called The Lion and it's from the 60s. It's with William Holden and...

[00:44:10] Oh yeah, I've heard of this. I've never... It's also really creepy crossing the line. I think it's... It's a Jack Cardiff movie. It's Jack Cardiff. I love his directing. His films he's directed are so bizarre. He directed a ton of movies. Right, a ton in there.

[00:44:23] But they're mostly pulpy stuff. Because he missed such a tony high class. Like Sons and Lovers, that's the one I've seen. Did he do Girl in a Motorcycle? Yeah. And then he did this amazing movie about circus reeks and the plants eat them and stuff

[00:44:36] and I can't remember what it's called but it's awesome. No, it's so good. So is The Lion because it's like... It's about like... Cappuccino and William Holden have a daughter together at their divorce and they are living in Africa and their daughter is like 12 or something

[00:44:53] and kind of like tomboyish and she falls in love literally with a lion. She's having this like romance with a lion. Okay, this is the second human animal romance film you brought up today. Oh, that's true. So clearly you have some sort of like book to write here.

[00:45:08] I recently realized I think my favorite subgenre of movie is Human Falls in Love with Something That Isn't Human. It is... That is a pretty... You know if you can pull that off. Yeah, I'm big into those. So I'm taking notes on all these recommendations.

[00:45:23] It's called The Mutations, the plant movie. That was his last movie with Donald Pleasance and no one else... I really recommend it. This other film is the Africa mercenaries movie. Oh yes, wait, I just had that one. Dark of the Sun, I believe it's called. Incredible. Totally incredible.

[00:45:40] Set in the Congo starring Rod Taylor. Ding-dong! Do you want to get it? Yeah, I'll get it because I need to go to the bathroom. Okay. Hello? Hello, I'm David. I am autobiography. Okay, what is... I see. Of course, familiar with the film The Page Master.

[00:46:01] Sure, yeah, I saw The Page Master when I was a kid. In which sentient books represent an entire subgenre of literature. Sure, it's like horror or whatever. Like fantasy, adventure. Your auto-biog. Cut me out of the film. Thought that was a little dry.

[00:46:14] You seem a little dry, no offense. A little narcissistic. Very self-obsessed, right. Right, and I love listening to myself talk about myself. Okay. But for once, I'd love to listen to someone else. Oh, you want it like an audio book. I would love an audio book.

[00:46:29] I don't want jib jab. I don't want a conversation. Give me a real piece of literature in my ears. Okay, all right. Well, what do you think of Audible? Sounds good. Continue. Well, this is a company, Audible, that's offering our listeners a free audio book

[00:46:45] with a 30-day trial membership. If you just go to audible.com. And you browse the unmatched selection of audio programs, you can download a title free and start listening right away. It's that easy. Okay, but what? I mean, it sounds like it'd probably be difficult for me

[00:47:01] to find a device that would be compatible with this. Would it work on my phone? It works on your phone. Okay, what about from my car? Sure. A tablet? Yeah. What about at home on Amazon Echo, a great company?

[00:47:12] Yes, I think that you could easily listen to an audio book no matter what. Audio shows, news, comedy, magazines, newspapers, business information. How does this work on a month-to-month basis? Well, if you go to audible.com, slash check, or text check to 500-500 to get started. Like options.

[00:47:34] You get a 30-day trial membership and you get a free title to start listening to right away. Right. Now I've heard it from Merck and you confirm or deny Audible members get accredited every month. Good for any audio book in the store, regardless of price

[00:47:46] and unused credits roll over to the next month. That's amazing. How did you know that? I just had a feeling. It was a rumor. I heard it from a bird. Now if I didn't like my audio book, can I exchange it with no questions asked? Yeah, of course.

[00:47:59] This is Audible we're talking about here. And are the books mine-to-keep or are they going to take them back from me in the midnight? They belong to you. I don't like the sound of that. I like the sound of that. Griffin, you come back in here anytime?

[00:48:10] Hey yeah, I finished up my poop. How's it going? We're just talking about Audible. Oh, Audible? Yeah. I did an audio book that's available on Audible. You're telling us, you're telling me that our listeners with our promo code can go get a free audio book that you read?

[00:48:23] Yeah, it's called The Impossible Fortress by Jason Reculac. Okay. Reculac. Reculac. I knew how to say it when I recorded it. You had to know. It's a kind of age story about video game programming. Oh yeah, I remember when you were working on it.

[00:48:38] In the 80s and I'll say this to our listeners. If you've ever wanted to hear me recite a bunch of long form code, boy, this is a good use of your free audio book. All right, well, I'll just remind you, go to Audible.com

[00:48:50] slash check or text check to 500-500 and you can get this free trial. Is there an option for Audible to slide into my DMs like I failed or is it only text or website? Text or website. Okay, well maybe they'll work on that. Okay, we've drifted. We drifted.

[00:49:07] This is a tangent. We drift. Also, this movie is not short, but La Plot Lite, I would say. Or I guess there's a lot of plot in it, but it's sort of in that noir way where it doesn't really matter.

[00:49:20] It's also a movie where there aren't too many scenes, but all the scenes are very long because they're all scenes about tension, intimidation, seduction. Sort of like cat and mouse. Who has the power? Where's the balance of power here? Every scene is a power balancing in this film.

[00:49:33] So she has, you know, man killed with ice pick, right? Right. Cops investigate ice pick murder. Right. He's a rock star who later became a philanthropist and a club owner. We've all been there. We've all had sex with this guy.

[00:49:46] We all have one of these guys in our history. Totally. We all have a cat person, and we all have a guy like this. And she wrote a book which describes this exact murder. Right. Down to the specifics of him being a rock star

[00:50:00] who then became a civilly important. And the silk tying his hands with silk. All of it. So they immediately go like, well open shut. That's it. No, no, no. What I like is they immediately go like, fuck she wrote this fucking book

[00:50:13] so we couldn't accuse her of this crime. It's such a good alibi. Yeah, right. Which I like that. I like that they're aware of that. But they all think it has to be her, but she's one step ahead of us. We're fucked. Right.

[00:50:24] They bring her in, Douglas goes to her house. And then this, it is literally like you're watching a mouse, but like a really disheveled, coked up mouse like walk into a trap. Right. Like you go from the initial setup.

[00:50:36] It's like, okay, the most typical version of this kind of, First he meets Roxy to a show. Yes. Right. The most typical setup of this kind of war movie is like very rich, powerful man dies. The girlfriend is the biggest suspect. Okay. Money must have been at play.

[00:50:50] But then when they go to her house, her house is even bigger. Money isn't an object. They get to the door. They think they got Roxy, who seems a little skittish. No, that's her girlfriend. Exactly. They have the, when we first see a woman,

[00:51:02] it's the double indemnity shot or the legs and you, on the staircase. But it's not her. It's her girlfriend. Right. It's a totally different story. Played by Lelani Sarel. I don't know her. Her, I feel she was married to Miguel Ferrer. Oh, that's interesting. For 12 years. Okay.

[00:51:22] They divorced. Who's her, then is her son? Who's her son? Lucas Ferrer and Rafael Ferrer. Okay. Interesting. She has. That's very interesting. Yeah. I mean, she looks kind of like Sharon Stone. Yeah. You know, right? But like not quite. You know,

[00:51:40] obviously she's just styled to look like a little like her. Right. And she's charismatic, but not at the same level of like when Stone walks, like when you get the first shot of Stone and she's just so fucking in control. She's got such a great face.

[00:51:50] Why is Sharon Stone so magnetic? I'm trying to figure it out. I don't know. I think it's her voice especially. The voice is great. Her voice is, I mean, she's totally beautiful. Yes. I think there's something just rough and scratchy and kind of great about her.

[00:52:04] I think she's one of those people where she just is so good at being on camera. And it transcends just like being photogenic, but she is so aware of like how she moves, her rhythms, her energy. She seems to be like one of those actors

[00:52:20] who can like feel the lighting on her face. Like you hear about those people who are like, can you get a fill there? And it's like, how did they know? Right. Like Kate Blanchett's apparently like that, where she like adjusts lighting based on like feeling. Good for her.

[00:52:32] The energy. Yeah, and you hear that and you're just like, God, that's fucking badass. But she seems like one of those people where she's just like so in control of her own screen image and so aware of how she translates onto this medium.

[00:52:43] And she's so still in this movie. She's got so many amazing scenes where she's just sort of like staring off into the distance, pretty static, but she's like completely captivating and she just always has high status. You know, like even in total recall where she's with

[00:52:59] fucking peak Arnold Schwarzenegger, who's seven times bigger than her. And they should make any sense where she's like, Oh honey, how was work? And he's like, it was fine. I'm sitting here right now. I like to sit, you know, and you're like, what the fuck is the,

[00:53:12] he does not, we talked about it. Every time they're in a scene together, she feels high status and he looks like a fucking doofus. He does look like a doofus. And similarly every time she's on screen with Michael Douglas in this movie,

[00:53:25] he just looks like a sad old man. Like she seems so, he has to be like 50, right? Born in 44. 45? So yeah, he's like, he's in his mid 40s. And she was born, she's a lot younger than him, obviously she's 14 years younger than him. Yeah.

[00:53:42] She's the age of the character, which is like 30 or something. She's a famous novelist, I guess, but she writes like airplane thrillers. The books don't look good. No. It's like a lot of murdering to do just for like a shitty book. I mean, it's true.

[00:53:56] I'm literally judging a book by its cover. Yes. But she is incredibly successful. Yes. Probably exclusively through Hudson News Sales, but she is incredibly successful. So you're from the Bay Area. This is like Marin County or something? Like what is this?

[00:54:11] Yeah, it's Marin County where I'm actually from. And so this is another thing that the location, so when they go to her house, it's I think like Pacific Heights, which is always the house in all of the Noirs. It's always in the same location.

[00:54:24] And his apartment too is the same as like Humphrey Bogart, so the Kearney Street and these sort of like, it's San Francisco is such a small city that all of these locations are used over and over again. It's so photogenic, but it's also really small. Right.

[00:54:39] And then when they go to her country place, it's Stinson Beach. I think that they actually filmed it in Carmel though. I did look it up. Carmel. I know Carmel because Clint Eastwood was the mayor. He was the mayor. Great, but it was supposed to be Stinson Beach,

[00:54:53] which is in Marin County. And that's another Noir thing. There's the, I don't know if you guys seen the Joan Crawford movie set in fear? The second one. Yeah. And I think that's, what is it? 1950s? It's like early 50s, I think. Is it 1952? 1952 with Jack Palance.

[00:55:10] Yeah, and Gloria Graham, who we were just talking about. And there's the same, there's a lot of echoes of that. It's another house on the cliff. Gorgeous. And you can look down and you see it, there's almost the shot, some of the shots are complete,

[00:55:26] like almost like quotes. And so this movie is so good at that, of getting those San Francisco Noir. Touchstones, right? Yeah. But also a cowboy bar. Yeah, and the cowboy bar is just thrown in. And then another Marin County Noir is Dark Passage.

[00:55:45] It starts out in Marin and they drive. So when they're driving on those curvy roads, it reminds me of Dark Passage, which is really similar. This is also, it's a color film obviously, but it is so shadow based. It is so contrast based.

[00:55:59] And the amount of like a glimmer of light coming through the blinds, like vertical shadows on their face stuff in this movie is like, he emulates the look really well without it feeling like a pastiche. Yeah. He finds a way to modernize all that sort of

[00:56:16] like visual language of the noir. It's weird though, because it feels very, I kept in my notes, I was like, oh, it's so 80s, but it's early 90s. But it somehow gets that 80s look. But it's the tail end. Yeah. And the cocaine and the,

[00:56:30] but it's also funny because of this movie I found out came out the same year. This played the same Cannes Film Festival as Fire Walk with Me. Sure. Right, 92. Yes, yes. And so those are like, I don't know, one feels very more towards,

[00:56:45] a little more towards the 90s to me. And this feels very much stuck in the 80s or almost like a summary, like Verhoeven who's been there being like, oh, I'm going to make a cocaine noir. This feels like a hangover from the 90s movie,

[00:56:58] you know, or from the 80s rap. It feels like a 90s set 80s hangover film where it's like, Michael Douglas is like the remaining Coke boogers that we have to like clear out of our nostrils. Oh, gosh. Coke boogers. That really gets to his essence. Right?

[00:57:15] He's a human Coke booger and a phenomenal actor. There's that shot of him. That shot of him that I think is, you know, the shot of him that I think is really funny that it is included. Yeah. After the incredibly rough sex scene with Gene Triple horn, uh-huh.

[00:57:33] Where he's dressing where she's sick of him immediately and like goes into her room and he dresses and he's like flat on his back and he pulls his pants on by kind of like doing the worm. You know, he kind of sort of like,

[00:57:44] where it's like, oh yeah, this guy is like a fucking loser. Right? You know, like I mean like, this is him after he's done this like thing, you know, where he's just like, oh well, here I am. No pants on, you know.

[00:57:57] Well, he's like a guy who like knows what to do in the extreme situations and in between is like doesn't know how to behave at all. Can you imagine this guy like eating a bowl of fruit loops? You know what I mean? Or he's just like, I'm hungry.

[00:58:09] Yeah. He knows how to strut into a room. This is a guy who orders a double blackjack when he wants to like start drinking again. Do you guys know where the blackjack is? No, it's whiskey and like fucking, I looked it up. I've never heard of it.

[00:58:24] Is it like the speed ball of liquor? It's, I think it's whiskey and Kahlua in a cocktail shaker like with like lemon juice. Sounds disgusting. Yeah, that's awful. And like, that's what he's like at his bar. That's his drink. Give me a double blackjack. Right.

[00:58:44] And everyone's like, don't fucking do that. You're dumbing? Anyway, so let's get into that. Right. So it's because after all of that, the initial like, you know, where they bring her in for questioning and all, you know, this sort of the cat and mouse game has begun. Right.

[00:58:59] You have, sorry, what's your name? Beth. Garner. Right. He's a psychiatrist. Who he has a relationship with. You start to get this, this backstory of what he's been going through. The wife suicide, his addiction issues to several different substances. He's going through some shit.

[00:59:19] He's going through some shit. She is a total unknown. This is her debut film. Her first film. She was Ben Stiller's girlfriend. Not to tag her with that, but they have been dating for a long time. She was like a stage actress. And Stiller was such a like,

[00:59:30] it early nineties boy as like this poster child of like the Gen X. That I think they were like kind of a cool hip couple. For sure. Yeah, this is her first movie. And then she like kind of runs the table for like five years after this.

[00:59:43] Runs the table? She's doing big shit. I mean, she, the firm reality bites in water world. Or her next three movies. Reality bites she's barely in. Yeah. Right. She's barely in. But Water World is like, I mean, certainly that was a huge part for her.

[00:59:56] And then sliding doors, but she's the other woman. Then that's what's weird. Bad things. She always becomes like low on the call sheet. She's really good in Big Love, which I enjoyed her. She's always Jean Triple Horn though. Like I've heard people refer to this movie.

[01:00:09] What a face she's got. She's totally beautiful. She's so beautiful, but it's almost like she's not, you know, like in Zoolander when there's Billy Zane and Billy Zane is Billy Zane. She's kind of like Jean Triple Horn. She also has a,

[01:00:20] it's such a wonderful name to think about triple horn. You know, like, So distinctive her face is so distinctive. The era in which she was really like prominent is so distinctive that she kind of sticks out of anything she's in. Yeah. I saw it,

[01:00:35] someone tweeted something about this movie that I was totally in shock. I hadn't seen it for a while and they're like, you know, when, when you're not sure who did it, whether it was Catherine Tramiel or Jean Triple Horn. And there's so many things about that. Yeah.

[01:00:48] She's kidding. Okay. There's, so there's, and there's so many interesting things about that. Well, first of all, I was in shock because I'm like, whoa, I did not remember it being as like to me, it was really clear. Right. Even though it's totally like,

[01:01:01] I have a very clear point of view about this and I didn't, and I have, I did not think that it was that debatable, but also just, you know, the Catherine Tramiel is such a character. It's such a good noir name and then there's Jean Triple Horn.

[01:01:15] And it's like, but that's also because. Dr. Beth Garner. Like it's like, I mean, that's also because we're not her. She who she is. Exactly. She is. I mean, I do think it's hard like, even though the crux of the plot is did she do it? You know,

[01:01:31] and they do have this whole flim flam with, oh, but actually she, Jean Triple Horn used to have blonde hair and they slept together in college and she might've killed something, you know, like where they're like, no, it could be her,

[01:01:41] it could be her and you never buy it for a second. Wait, really? I'm the opposite. I totally think Jean Triple Horn do it. I don't buy it. I totally think that I have no doubt to me, it's completely Jean Triple Horn is like, she's so creepy.

[01:01:54] She is creepy. She is creepy. I just don't think she has the guts. Hot take, hot take. Yeah. I know you haven't listened to this podcast, but on episode one, we solved Serial conclusively. We gave the answer to America Wanted. It's a way back when.

[01:02:08] Which is they both did it. And I think this movie is the same. Oh, you think they both did it? I think there's an A-J and a non thing kind of going on. I just always walk out of this. That's what I think.

[01:02:18] I think neither story makes sense if it's just one of them without collaboration from the other. Wow. See, I really think Jean Triple Horn because she's just such a creep. And I just feel like that's what I did about. She's a creep? And she gets into the,

[01:02:32] I brought up this article I wrote a few years ago called Persona Swap. And that gets this, this is very noir, this movie. But it also gets into this Persona Swap movie where there's a blonde and a brunette. There's like a transference of power.

[01:02:45] A transference of power and personality. And one is really copying the other like single white female. We have a big revival in the 90s. Yeah, a single white female. And Hannah Rocks the Cradle kind of tiptoes into that.

[01:02:54] Hannah Rocks the Cradle is more like a fatal attraction movie where it's like what if the worst possible thing happened after you get a mundane thing? Like fatal attraction. What if you slept with another lady? Oh, she boils your daughter's bunny. Van Rocks the Cradle.

[01:03:07] What if you got a babysitter? No, no, you don't want to hire a babysitter. Never leave your home. Just don't leave. Sorry. But it did, it did. There were a lot of in the 90s and then even like Mulholland Drive. And there's the blonde. The best one, yeah.

[01:03:19] Yeah, and like so this to me just reminded me and Jean Triple Horn is so the bad guy in those roles in those movies. Yes. And I really bought everything about her. But I mean, of course there's the last scene in the last shot.

[01:03:33] But to me, I am so moved by Sharon Stone and by Catherine Tramell that I totally don't think she did it. But do you think she's now like, maybe I should do it? Like, you know, it's, you know. My feeling then is that,

[01:03:47] and I know this isn't quite logical but just let me go with my heart. With you. I love this read. You sound like Sirotanik falling in love with a nun. You're going to talk about soulful horizon. No, but I feel like there's another movie

[01:04:02] that in this last rewatch it was reminding me of have you guys ever seen the movie Belle Book and Candle? The Richard Quine movie? Yeah. Yes. It was a common answer trivia. Yes. If you remember that. We became very good friends doing movie trivia night

[01:04:16] of ideology and we always would get smarted by that one because it would come up over and over again. They would do so many witch categories because Maggie loved witch movies. Yeah. So Belle Book and Candle was a favorite. Yes, but anyway.

[01:04:25] At a certain point both of us were just like, fuck, why didn't we watch Belle Book and Candle after the last, like we know it's going to come up every three weeks. That's what Jimmy Stewart and Kim Nowak did. Yeah, made the same year as Vertigo.

[01:04:36] So I mean obviously this movie has a lot of echoes of Vertigo and so that movie does too. And they're both like not quite Vertigo, but there's like in that movie she's this like, it's the same thing instead of being like the perfect woman.

[01:04:48] She's the perfect woman because, instead of her power being her summa cum laude pussy, her power is that she's like literally a witch and that she put a love spell over Jimmy Stewart and like this sort of thing. But it's the same vibe,

[01:05:01] like the same sort of blonde coolness and like I have this power over you that you're both like attracted to and totally scared of. And, but then at the end she becomes vulnerable and there's the same tears at the end too. Which is in the similar place.

[01:05:16] And so, and to me it's like, well yeah, like she doesn't, she's like wants to kill him because he wants her to be a stay at home mom. He's talking a whole mess at the end there where he's like, let's see, maybe we'll have some kids. It's like,

[01:05:31] Yeah, kids. Some basic shit. You wanna have children? Totally. You're gonna shoot them by mistake like eight months in. Neither of you are fit to be parents. And that's very, that's very bell-booking candle. At the end she ends up really boring and basic

[01:05:44] and terrible and it's almost like sad. And so I feel like to me I always read this as like, yeah, so she's ready to stab him at the end but that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with all the murders before.

[01:05:54] Not to sit and jump to one of our old punching bags. I just remember how fucking bullshit is it that moment in Suicide Squad where Enchantress sees all their fantasies and Harley's friends is that she lives in the suburbs with a Joker and they have a baby?

[01:06:07] Yeah, it's terrible. We talked about it at the time. I haven't even seen that but that is so gross. It's Rapperhead's. It's literally the witch character like goes into all their deepest fantasies of the world. She tries to like bewitch them by showing them what they want.

[01:06:18] And the way they get into that sequence is her turning on the normal setting on a washer dryer and then it pans out and it's her and the Joker and they don't have makeup and they have a little baby

[01:06:26] and they're in like a somewhere that's green like house. Normal. Yeah, normal. Normal. That's horrible. That's horrible. Because I don't know if you know this, usually the Joker is twisted. Twisted. Agree with everything that you say. But you don't agree with me.

[01:06:43] You disagree with everything I say actually. You think that's a different person. Oh no, right. So getting back to this, I do think Beth doesn't have the guts. That's my whole argument on Beth is that she is like the sort of like wishy-washy version of Catherine.

[01:06:58] She was obsessed with Catherine but she like, she looks so shocked when she, again spoiler alert, when she gets shot at the end. And so like that to me, I'm like she doesn't look like, how did you figure this out? She literally looks like, why'd you shoot me?

[01:07:15] It's so diploma that ending. It is. With the like poncho and everything. Oh my God. It's really great. Also with the, throughout the hair like obscure, the sort of mysterious female villain. That makes the question really interesting for me is the one where Douglas

[01:07:32] goes to see Catherine after Rocky's diet. Yeah. And she's like a mess, an absolute mess. Right. And up until this point in the way she has always been in complete control of what she's projecting on to everyone else around there. And this like insane confidence to be like,

[01:07:49] I bet you think I killed her. Like just openly baiting them into being like, I know everything you're thinking. You think I'm guilty. Yeah, they have the whole, it's like a chess conversation. Right. Like, well they told me, I said that you wouldn't want a lawyer.

[01:08:02] Why'd you say I wouldn't want a lawyer? You know, oh yeah. Delighted Tector leaving the clippings of the magazine, the newspaper articles about Douglas, like all of it. She's like openly inviting skepticism and fear about her, right? And then this moment where she's just like bundled up

[01:08:17] in like a blanket, right? Like a big sweater, looking out the window just like broken. And whereas before she's been kind of flipping when she talks about like the people in her life who have died in this kind of like arched eyebrow way, now she's just like,

[01:08:31] I fucking hate it. Like everyone I know dies. Like I'm just as personal. I mean that's obviously the scene where you're supposed to be like, oh maybe, maybe this, this she's for real. And because of that scene, you either have to go like, okay, she is the Joker.

[01:08:44] Like she's like an incredible like arch nemesis who's capable of like such extreme emotional manipulation that this is part of her plan or that she's like this weird, somewhat victim of circumstance who has now had to own it in a certain way. Sure. But I still kind of,

[01:09:02] I feel like, I don't know. She's got an ice pick on her bed. I mean, I don't know. That's the thing. I mean, I have an ice pick in my bed but that's because I like to have ice in my bed. You'd like to do some night picking.

[01:09:10] Yeah. It's kinky. She knows what he likes. I do love how her sex move though is like that she just sort of goes like, I'm about to stab you. Like let me just suddenly rush at you. Do you remember the DVD for this movie? The DVD.

[01:09:26] Because we talked about how like, the old sort of snap case. Lion's Gate was paid so much money to get Schwarzenegger to do the commentary for Total Recall. Okay. Because this was like the big blockbuster DVD era. That's the commentary where Arnold Schwarzenegger is like,

[01:09:42] I need this scene. I'm watching TV and it's great. He just describes what's happening on the screen. And they paid him like a million dollars to do the commentary because they were like, maybe this is the next big thing. Sure. But they similarly released basic instinct

[01:09:53] around the same time. And the case was like clear blue loosite. So it looked like ice with no cover. I do remember this, right? Yes, yes. With the disc visible inside and it came packaged with an ice pick that was actually a pen.

[01:10:07] And it's the weirdest like product ever. I do remember that. Clear blue, visible disc, no other title on it. And then there's just an ice pick inside of it. So it's like the movie is an ice. And then you have to pick it out.

[01:10:20] With a pen which is mightier than the ice pick. Like it's such a mangled kind of thing. I love it. I just remember Entertainment Weekly like couldn't get over that. Like look at how cool DVDs are now. This isn't your grandfather's home media format.

[01:10:34] Well, I have the Blu-ray and it's just. It's just a normal. It's just in a case or something. Yeah. Have you guys seen Phantom Thread yet? Yes. You haven't. I haven't. You haven't. But I was just thinking, it wasn't while I was watching it.

[01:10:46] But you know when you say, why does she haven't? Okay, well no, okay, I won't say anything more actually. Oh really? No, I won't. But because they have a similar attitude. He can handle a mild spoiler. They just have a similar attitude towards sex. Okay.

[01:11:00] But they're very different. I think there's like no sex scenes in Phantom Thread and these are some of the craziest as you said, athletic. But I think they're sexy. Fair enough. Maybe I was too hard on the sex scenes. They're very sexy. They're just extreme.

[01:11:16] Like I would be frightened if I were placed in a position like this. You mean in your regular life or to film a sex scene like this? Both. Sure. Either. The sex scene, the main centerpiece sex scene took five days to film,

[01:11:30] which just sounds like such a hassle to me. I did want to say it right. I read this interview with Michael Douglas. I may have said this on the podcast before because it's one of my favorite quotes where he was like, I hate filming sex scenes,

[01:11:40] which is nuts because he's filmed like eight billions. That's like his belly wet. And he's like, because everyone who's watching a movie has had sex and no one's ever died. Right. So it's so much easier to die on screen because no one knows what that's like. Sure.

[01:11:51] So I love dying on screen. I'll do it anytime you want, but I hate sex because everyone's just like comparing it to whatever they do. That's funny. But yeah, that, because you brought it up in comparison with show girls, but ever since you brought that up,

[01:12:05] my mind's been going like, what happened with that pool scene? Like what happened between this, the ice pick and the pool scene? It's true. But you know what I mean? You can't like... But it doesn't have focus maybe. The pool scene. Right. Yes.

[01:12:18] The pool scene has absolutely no purpose whatsoever, except that they need to have sex, I guess, because they are beginning a sexual relationship. Right. But there's no like gravitas to the scene really. And so I guess it's the idea is just she's,

[01:12:32] it's another performance from her, I guess. But also, as we've talked about previously, he always protests that he is not heightened or stylized in how he depicts sex or violence. And he's like, I'm just the only one who shows it the way it is. Right.

[01:12:47] He considers both of these to be like Ken Loach approaches to like... You go for it, Pauly. I like it. I love it. I love it. I mean, I even like it in showgirls, although in showgirls it is just obviously funny.

[01:13:01] Like you know, it's very hard to imagine. But you know the thing I think that makes this sex scene work is like a good action sequence. It has character beats within it. It has real performance moments. It's not just choreography, you know? Yes. Right. But it is choreographed.

[01:13:16] But not just choreographed. In the first sex scene that we see, do you think that was that Sharon Stone in a wig? I think it is. Yes. I think that is Sharon Stone. That's like, yes, that's her body. I wasn't framed by framing it,

[01:13:29] but also even the moments when the hair sort of drifts away a little bit and you see elements of it. Her bone structure on her face is so distinctive. Yeah. The other time you catch a cheekbone, you're like, that has to be Sharon Stone

[01:13:41] or hiring someone purposefully who looks so much like Sharon Stone. Right. I'm just curious what they, if that's been revealed somewhere. I don't know. I don't know. I wonder how you'd find out. I'd certainly think it's her. So which... Yeah.

[01:13:57] The main sort of like incident that we have uncovered is about halfway through the movie when he goes to see her and she reveals that she's made him the character in her next book. Well, yeah. Doing all this research and starts revealing details that she should know.

[01:14:11] About himself. Right. It's the scene at his apartment, I believe, is where she's doing this. That comes later. Okay. It's the early one where he goes to her house that ends with him leaving and her making out with Rocky in front of him. Right.

[01:14:26] And that's when he goes back to the precinct and flips out about like who gave her the file. That's when he, right, he yells at Dana Lombargin, Bargin, how do you say his name? Yes. And then Dana Lombargin gets shot like one minute later

[01:14:38] and he is considered the prime suspect. Right. Because he freaked out. And then he goes to his house and the Jean Triple Horn gave the file to him. Right. But this is all, like this is all film nor shit.

[01:14:49] Like where it's like there's just a lot of plot happening and like a lot of like wires getting crossed so that you can't guess quite what's going to happen next. But this leads to him being suspended? Yeah. He gets suspended. So now he's still.

[01:15:01] There's also two car chases. Yes. There's the one on those windy roads that you were talking about that's kind of cool. And then there's the other one where like, that I don't know. But that's a car versus foot chase. Right.

[01:15:15] It doesn't even get in the car at some point. No, right? Doesn't he? Am I wrong about that? I think there's a car chase. Yeah. I think you know, because there's like with the big pillars and the, you know, yeah.

[01:15:25] And the streets that's got the old, you know, the steep streets. Right. I think like Kearney or something. Yes. Yes. I think he practiced by like driving up and down Kearney street or whatever. Yes. And that's like classic noir. What's the street that's the zigzag? I've forgotten.

[01:15:39] I remember I'm so out of that. My great aunt and uncle live in San Francisco and whenever I visited them, they would be like, we got to drive down the zigzag street or you know, I can't remember what it's called.

[01:15:50] It's interesting how protested this movie was at the time for its depiction. Before it came out. Well, even while they were shooting. Yes. So what exactly at that point, I'm not quite clear on this like, what words they're protesting for the script? I don't know.

[01:16:05] They were, I must have been the script. I don't know how they figured it out. Like that this was a film about a bisexual woman who could be a psychopath or whatever, but that is what they were protesting. Obviously it's in San Francisco.

[01:16:18] So maybe there was, you know, like, that's like the home of gay activism in this country. So maybe that like, I don't know what the log line was. Maybe someone's got a copy of the script or something. I don't know. This movie has like three bisexual female characters,

[01:16:32] all of whom are violence. You might not be bisexual. That's true. She could just be gay. And she likes watching. Yeah, indeed. What is she? Wait. She likes the peep. She is a peeper. She's a peeper. That's true. And that's why you're a finest film critic.

[01:16:49] Thank you, Ben. But yeah, it's like, it gets into a thing where not that this movie feels innocuous now, but it kind of, when you think about it within its time and place, it's like, well, you don't really have any bisexual representation in movies.

[01:17:07] And especially when like this was still a time very much where I think people were like, that's not real. You're either gay or straight. I think the idea that like, oh, here's a movie with a major bisexual character and also it's a movie about like,

[01:17:19] is she a serial killer or not? Initially, like immediately just piss people off. Yeah, I don't know if that's a like, it's obviously not a positive depiction of bisexuality, but I don't like, is that, was that a stereotype? No, and I also, well, Bisexuals are murderous.

[01:17:35] I thought this movie draws a line in any way between the two. But you know, it's only a year after The Silence of the Lambs, which had a similar controversy around it. That probably is what really... And so maybe there was just some sort of like concerted effort,

[01:17:47] like let's watch out for these movies that sort of paint, you know, LGBT people as demented or psychotic or anything like that. I think The Silence of the Lambs, especially with how revered it was and winning all the Oscars, that was... It is crazy that they protested filming

[01:18:02] that like police had to be at like on set to stop them from interrupting filming. Which also only helped this movie. Like it definitely made the movie feel like a hot item by the time it came out. I mean, it does feel dated.

[01:18:16] Some of the stuff like I would be, you know, embarrassed, especially now even when I first watched it, more than when I first watched it. But it gets into an interesting debate about, you know, representation. I'm obviously very pro, the idea of like more positive representation of...

[01:18:31] Or not positive, but representation of people we don't see. But I don't... There's some people who think that you need to have positive depiction of women and positive depiction of black people. They should only be these paragons of... Yeah, and that you should...

[01:18:44] And I don't follow that idea. I think it's better just to have like complicated characters. Interesting dimensionality. I think it just becomes more loaded when like this movie is coming out and it's like, well, these are the first major bisexual characters who are getting in a film.

[01:18:59] And look, they all stab people, you know? Yeah. And the Beth character, like as... I mean, it's interesting because she's so like... She's sort of... There's something very pathetic about her character, but it's like they paint it, they have it both ways.

[01:19:15] That she's this like woman in love with this man and that she's this lesbian who's been jilted, which is why she became this person. And so they really kind of give it to her. And yeah, it's poor Beth. Yeah, her scene where she finally... Yeah, poor Beth.

[01:19:35] And she also gets shot. Let's not forget. No, the way she finally confesses like, it was my only woman I ever slept with and I didn't want anyone to find out. It is sort of like this sort of like... She's too embarrassed in a way,

[01:19:47] but you also kind of understanding it is still in 1992. So I guess your reading of that depends on what you're reading of her character is. Right. And like if you think that she's guilty, like I do and then you're saying, you know, and then... But if you...

[01:19:59] It's interesting that... I like this. I think I sent you guys something that I wrote and I love this. Which was so good. We should tweet it out. No. I love this quote of... David almost knocked over a water bottle onto Ben's control. He's reading the quote.

[01:20:17] But he said, the scripts that interest me are a little bit edgy and have a little tension between the audience and the film itself. And I even think between the filmmaker, between the filmmaker's intentions, I think there's not only room for ambiguity,

[01:20:30] but there's just so much going on within the film. It really takes the life of its own and it's always like... He's an intuitive enough filmmaker that the film is like smarter than he is than his intentions, you know? Like it's like the... What actually ends up happening?

[01:20:49] Like he's able to combine these things. He's like a master provocateur and he just knows how to push buttons in a way that creates meaning that sometimes is intentional and sometimes isn't. But the thing I love about him is you never hear anyone have an indifferent response

[01:21:05] to A Verhoeven movie. They're people who actively hate his films and people who love them. And no one's ever like, people are like, that's weird. What the fuck is that? Why does this make me uncomfortable? Or I love it whole hog or I'm wrestling with it, you know?

[01:21:20] But he's definitely like someone who's interested in that relationship between the audience and the movie. And it not being a passive thing. I agree. Yeah. Totally. And then... Good director. And then where he went after this, what were you gonna say to him? No, I'm not saying anything.

[01:21:36] I mean, I like this conversation. I'm just listening. I wanted to... We were talking in the beginning of the conversation about how he uses genre and how... And this was a really recent revelation for me that I didn't get until I read Adam Neyman's book about show girls.

[01:21:52] Which I keep because I know Adam and he's a pal. Oh, God, you should read it. It's really good. I need to read it because we're doing Verhoeven right now. I mean, it'd be nice to have had... He lives in Toronto. But yes.

[01:22:03] Anyway, what were you reading his book? Well, yeah. And well, there's a lot of things about the book and there's great lines about piece of shit or master piece. And I feel like you'll start quoting that book in this podcast.

[01:22:16] But he compared show girls to the Gold Diggers movies. Which are the show girls, which I didn't get on a first-in-initial, which totally makes sense. That was Esther Hauser's... We want to make an old MGM musical. It was Verhoeven's pitch to Esther Hauser's

[01:22:29] I Want to Make a Gold Diggers-type movie. And Esther Hauser's like, great, here's the script. Yeah, exactly. Your face right now is exactly what happened. But it's also like this Greek tragedy that movie. Good. It's a damned woman who just falls deeper and deeper

[01:22:43] into the depths of hell. To shout out Adam's book, it's called It Doesn't Suck. Show girls. With a question mark, right? I believe so. It doesn't suck? No, maybe it doesn't. Maybe it knows just maybe without the question mark. No, it's with a period. It doesn't suck. Interim.

[01:22:57] Interim. Congratulations. It's great. I really recommend it. It's a short book and that's really good. You can get it on your Kindle. Yeah. Basic Instinct. So yeah, what happened? We recovered it out of order. Well, there's the right there because there's the whole

[01:23:14] Beth thing is sort of the crux of the middle of the movie. Right. Where it's like, did she do it? You know, is she... Right, right. After Rocky dies, he goes to see Tramel. And through this, we have all the planting of like

[01:23:28] all Tramel's buddies are former killers of some, you know, she like collects these people. It's great. Yes. And then more about the previous books. Right. There's this scene where she goes to his apartment after he's been suspended. Right. And it becomes clear that like, okay, he's now...

[01:23:45] And they still haven't had sex at this point, I believe. No. They're still in the sort of flirt zone. Yes. Kind of, you know, getting right into each other's faces. And then she's like, let me... Real cute, modest flirting. Yeah.

[01:23:57] So let me chunk this ice up for you with an ice pick. Right. The coke joke, you know, it's like now she's like relishing how far he's falling. Right. Because her initial temptation is the cigarette case. Yeah. Right. I told you, I quit. Right. She's like... Right.

[01:24:15] She's getting back on all his vices, get them all greased up again. And then, yeah, yeah. So he's now like fully in it, goes to see Gus at the bar after he slept with her. Gus is like, you fucking dummy. Well, right.

[01:24:26] So they have that first sex scene right where he's playing the tension of, oh, is she going to stab him too? Right. And then she just kind of takes the coke, ties out. And then instead, no, she just sort of flumps on time. Yeah, she has a flumping.

[01:24:38] It's a hardcore flumping. And then, yeah, then she goes, there's the Rocky Cartier's, goes over to her place. She has this total breakdown where she has no performative or entirely performative, depending on how you look at the film. Right. But this real kind of earnest, broken reckoning

[01:24:56] of her life and all the people she's lost, which is having a more sensual sex scene. Sure. That we cut past. She says, make love to me. And then it's them sort of like nestling by the fire. And this is when she opens up about Dr. Beth. Right.

[01:25:11] So now, now Douglas has the pieces. Sure. Yeah. And then he gets the book and she's like, I'm done with you. Books over. Right. Oh, well, our dear friend Gus, he reads that in the book. The cop dies in an elevator. With his legs sticking out. Yeah. Right?

[01:25:32] Are we missing any plots of here? I'm trying to like. I think we've covered all of it, right? I think so. Pretty much. Now, but we have completely different conclusions. Yeah. That's good. I, I poor Beth. Yeah. Now I'm more interested though.

[01:25:45] Well, we're all feel bad for Gus. All he wanted to do is drink some sasperilla. Right. That mechanical pull. So you think that's Gus getting, getting, I mean, that's Beth, Knife and Gus, you know, picking ice, picking Gus in the elevator. I agree with you. You do?

[01:26:01] I agree with you. I still think that both of them are in on it, but I think Beth is definitely the one who physically killed Gus. But they didn't collaborate. They hate each other. Do you think they collaborated? They're having. Oh, so you think there's like a.

[01:26:12] I mean, a non-MJ hate each other, right? There's like a Rosencrantz and Guildenstern like movie of this where it's like the two of them just talking and. Yeah. I don't think your hands are totally clean. You know, I think. But it's the,

[01:26:23] I think Beth is doing most of the hands on dirty work. The evidence against Beth is, is so sort of open and shut. Right? Like it's like the poncho is there, like in a right, like it's like. It's true. It seems like it could be very planted. Right.

[01:26:38] When he kills her, it's like, oh, this all just got tied off really neatly. Yeah. Almost like it was orchestrated by some lady who writes crazy novels and leaves a path of bodies in her wake. Right. It's a great movie. It is. Yeah. It is a great movie.

[01:26:53] But then, right, then when he goes to Catherine, after all this is done, he doesn't say to anyone like, you know, I think I've got mixed feelings about shooting Beth. Yeah. It doesn't mention anything like that. Right. He just goes to her and he's like,

[01:27:08] can we get together forever? Yeah. Like he's like totally putty in her hands. Like rather than like, I know you said, you know, like. What do you think about how loaded that situation is, right? Catherine was never a suspect in this situation. Okay.

[01:27:22] Beth is someone they've both had incredibly intimate relationships with. True. And now he had to kill her as a response to her going cycle against Catherine. And they're just like, so what do you think? Montauk? Where do you want to move? You know?

[01:27:36] Like there would be some grieving time to just process what the fuck just happened. Right. In like February and like go to, go to, you know, tell your ride. Right. Well we do holidays with my parents or your parents. Well he killed the tourists.

[01:27:50] I mean, it's like, it's like, you know, it's no big deal for him. No, neither one is a saint. Yeah. And then they have this sex scene in his apartment, right? Yeah. Where she reaches for the ice pick, but I guess it rolled into the bed. Yeah.

[01:28:07] Is she like, oh fuck, there's no ice pick? Or do you think she's like, you know what, no ice pick tonight. Forget it. I don't know. Maybe it's just the thrill of knowing she could. I like that read, you know, it's like, you know what?

[01:28:20] It's a 50-50 shot every time you sleep with Sharon Stone. Is that worth it? She's got to get, she's got to, you know, she has her kings too. She's got to, she's got to, you know, like, yeah, I don't know. That's her fuck of the century where she,

[01:28:32] you know, she's like, well there has to be the chance that I murder you. She likes to be really good. Pick play. Consensual pick play. It's not consensual. Semi-consensual. He is to me like just, she just has him in a jar. He's down. He knows what he's doing.

[01:28:46] It's true. But you know what I mean? Like she has put him in a bottle. Like she, like this is, this is it. None of us have seen Fatal Instinct, have we? No. Fatal Instinct? Fatal Instinct is the Carl Reiner, like Mel Brooks-esque parody of the 90s,

[01:29:02] 80s sex thriller. This is a movie? This is a movie. 1993, huh, directed by Carl Reiner. How do I not know about this? Who's the female lead in it? It's someone who actually had a career. Sheryl and Finn. Yeah. Funny, funny, you know, callback to fire rock with me.

[01:29:18] I've never seen it either. Stars Armand de Sante. Right. Sean Young is in it. Sean Young. Yes, I think Sean Young is more of the Sharon Stone type in the film. James Remar, the great James Remar plays a character called Max Shady,

[01:29:29] which is a good Carl Reiner movie name. I've never seen it, but I was just thinking there has to be a bit in that movie where she takes out the ice pick and then makes an ice sculpture instead of stabbing him, right?

[01:29:40] That's like 100% a gag in that movie. That sounds about right. It's all of 91 minutes long. Yeah, okay, so we're going to do a bonus episode on that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The only thing we have left to do is play the box office.

[01:29:56] Yeah, so this movie was a huge hit. Yes, 117 million domestic on a $49 million budget. Pretty expensive movie I guess. He was big at the time. But she only got paid like 500,000. 500 grand. I hope she makes good residuals on this movie. I wonder if she does.

[01:30:15] I think she definitely does. I mean, I don't know what kind of a deal she got. I bet you she made good residuals. March 20th, what we're going to do is we're going to guess the box office. I want to point out one thing before that very quickly.

[01:30:26] Whereas Fatal Attraction was a massive cultural hit but also got nominated for a bunch of Oscars and was viewed as like a legitimate piece of high pulp. This was very much written off as trash. For one, it came out in March.

[01:30:42] It did get an editing nomination and a score nomination. I love Jerry Goldsworth. Both very well deserved but also got like a ton of fucking Razzie nominations. And fuck the Razzie's. We've got three Razzie nominations, which is weird. June Triple Horn, who fucking are you kidding me?

[01:30:56] The Razzie suck. Yeah, but like worst new star, worst male lead. They suck. They can't act exactly wrong. Exactly wrong. They're just like if a movie has like naked women and it must be trashy or whatever. I don't know what the problem is. Anyway, it opens.

[01:31:08] They hate sexuality. It opens number one, $15 million, which is a very good. And then it just plays throughout the whole spring into the summer. All right. So number two is a comedy, a huge hit comedy. I have to guess the box office. This is this segment.

[01:31:22] Made 7 million and it's sixth weekend. It was number one for the last five weekends. 1992. 1992. Home Alone? No, it's like an SNL comedy. Oh, Wayne's World? Wayne's World. I don't know. There you go. I mean there's too much of a clue. Three is the greatest movie ever made.

[01:31:40] Wayne's World 2? No, no. It's a comedy, a legal comedy. That you love? I think it's arguably the greatest film I've ever made. Are you being sarcastic here? I guess so, but I do love it. You do love it. It's a legal comedy. I mean who doesn't love it?

[01:31:54] It's like a legal to not like this movie. Maybe Miriam doesn't like it. Illegal to not like this movie. Ben loves it. Ben's nodding vigorously. It's pretty good. It was an Oscar winner. Four. Oh, my cousin Vinning. My cousin Vinning. Okay. I mean who doesn't?

[01:32:06] I mean that's just a movie. If I had to watch that movie every day, I'd be okay. To be fair, they presented the bill before Congress, but they have not passed the law yet. It's an amendment we're trying to add.

[01:32:15] Number four is a movie that I would love to do on this podcast one day. It's a cyber thriller. Wayne's World 2? A cyber thriller. The Net? No, earlier. Earlier cyber thriller. Starring James Bond. Starring a Bond is a Connery or a Brosnan? Brosnan. It's a Brosnan's...

[01:32:37] Based on a novel or... Oh, Lawnmower Man? Right. But it's like not actually... Doesn't have anything to do with the novel. No, it has an occupation and a title. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Based on a Steven King. I've never seen it. It's wild. It's not good.

[01:32:51] Who directed it? I don't even know. Okay. Like nobody. Okay, we'll do it next week. And then number five is another female centered film, but a nice sort of weepy kind of dramedy... Instombo, or is it like a star vehicle? Can I guess? Two stars, yes. Dealed Magnolias?

[01:33:09] It's a good guess, it's in that zone. Fried green tomatoes? There you go. I thought it was one of the two. There we go. Which was a huge hit, $82 million in 1992. About fucking tomatoes. Yeah, my godmother's favorite movie of all time. Every time I talked... I've never seen...

[01:33:24] Have you seen Fried Green Tomatoes? She's from Corsica. Miriam, we gotta get you out of here. Yes. It was such a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. It was a genuine pleasure to have you. You're one of my favorite film writers.

[01:33:35] People should look up all your works. We'll post links to the two pieces you sent us. Yeah, the pieces I should have sent them to. At least... We'll post the one you want people to read. Okay, great.

[01:33:45] I mean this will come out in a while, but yes for sure. Yeah, it comes out 2020. All right. Bye. Get out of here. Yes. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, subscribe. Thanks to Ange for Guto for her social media,

[01:33:58] laymonk, and for her theme song. Good question. I don't know. Why is this... Because he had a basic instinct that she's a murderer. I guess. It's a good call. I don't actually know why it's called. It's a good title. It's a great single, but it's...

[01:34:10] I don't know what does that mean? It feels like an erotic thriller title generator website would come up with basic instinct. All right, come on. Wrap it up. Sorry. Joe Bowen. Yay. Pat Reynolds. Yeah. Artwork. Go to blankysoutread.com for some real nerdy shit. Right. As always... What?

[01:34:32] I don't... Okay, fine. No! No! No! Help me here! I don't know. The magnum... The ice sculpture... The curl grinder... Come on, put your own in this always. I don't know. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You didn't have any. All right. You have to add that in.

[01:34:54] This is your job. Add in a fart. Okay, fine. Great. Thank you.