Basic with BenDavid Grabinski

[00:00:01] Blank Check with Griffin and David, Blank Check with Griffin and David

[00:00:08] Don't know what to say or to expect, cause the show is Blank Check

[00:00:18] Those of you I find lacking will quit. And those of you who refuse to quit will have a podcast.

[00:00:28] This base suffers three podcasts a year, unfortunate podcasts that I will not hesitate to repeat if you cross me.

[00:00:36] Here's the thing that's very frustrating about this movie.

[00:00:43] Already?

[00:00:44] Already. I'd say minute ten.

[00:00:46] Okay.

[00:00:47] The reveal of Sam Jack.

[00:00:49] Yes.

[00:00:50] And you go.

[00:00:51] I mean he's there right at the start, but yes.

[00:00:53] I guess his first real dialogue scene maybe.

[00:00:55] After the helicopter at the start, sure.

[00:00:57] Just regard my time code crack. Early on in the film.

[00:00:59] Okay.

[00:01:00] When we really serve Sam Jack for the first time.

[00:01:02] And two things become abundantly clear.

[00:01:05] You're like, okay, this guy only lives in flashbacks.

[00:01:08] Right.

[00:01:09] He's probably not going to really interact with our main character.

[00:01:11] Maybe kind of the selling point of the poster.

[00:01:14] Sure, this thing had the Mexican vibes, yes.

[00:01:16] But it is interesting, it's interesting to have a character all exist in the past in a place in a Rashomon style retelling, what have you, right?

[00:01:23] But then you're like, oh fuck, Samuel Jackson is playing a drill sergeant?

[00:01:29] True.

[00:01:30] In basic training? How has this never happened before?

[00:01:33] You hear him reciting this dialogue and you're like, oh my God fucking Sam Jack.

[00:01:37] One of the greatest dresser downs.

[00:01:39] One of the greatest on-screen.

[00:01:41] Down dressers.

[00:01:42] Let's invent this word.

[00:01:43] Dresser downs.

[00:01:45] Down dressers.

[00:01:47] Are either of those right?

[00:01:48] No. Neither of them count as words, but we can do whatever we want.

[00:01:51] We're making both.

[00:01:52] Yep.

[00:01:53] And then you're like, oh he's going to do it for like four minutes total.

[00:01:56] That's your big complaint?

[00:01:57] Kind of.

[00:01:58] I think that he's the most juice this movie has.

[00:02:01] I think this movie is a five star masterpiece.

[00:02:03] No, I'm kidding.

[00:02:04] David, where do you truly stand?

[00:02:05] I think it's good.

[00:02:06] I think it's a fun movie.

[00:02:07] I think it's fun.

[00:02:10] I think this movie is good and I have a few notes, but I cannot deny, you are

[00:02:16] saying what the big complaint was.

[00:02:17] Yeah.

[00:02:18] And we should have used our podcast, but you got it to a writer, it's the same

[00:02:20] thing as The Mexican.

[00:02:21] Don't promise me these two together if you're not going to give me them together.

[00:02:25] Like that's it.

[00:02:26] Casting him was the biggest mistake of the movie, which I'll get into two hours

[00:02:29] from now.

[00:02:30] Great.

[00:02:31] I think that's generally how we operate on this show.

[00:02:32] I think you're right.

[00:02:33] I think he's kind of the best part of the movie and it fucks the movie up.

[00:02:38] They rewrote the whole mystery to justify the casting in a way that breaks

[00:02:42] the movie.

[00:02:43] I say as someone who's here because he likes the movie.

[00:02:46] Sure.

[00:02:47] This is an interesting film.

[00:02:50] And a movie that I truly spent 20 plus years knowing basically nothing about.

[00:02:56] Basically?

[00:02:57] Basically.

[00:02:58] I should say this, the movie is hell of basic.

[00:03:00] It's a little basic.

[00:03:01] We have to get this out of the way.

[00:03:03] It literally is.

[00:03:04] I had to promise myself I wasn't going to make a joke like if it came out

[00:03:07] today, it'd be called mid.

[00:03:08] Like we're not.

[00:03:09] No, I'm going to log my letterbox thing right now.

[00:03:11] The basic thing, we're going to retire.

[00:03:12] Can I log my joke?

[00:03:14] I guess.

[00:03:15] I've just been waiting for this and I want to post it.

[00:03:17] I want to write it out in real time.

[00:03:19] Basic, more like complicated.

[00:03:21] That is my fucking review of this movie.

[00:03:23] It's pretty good.

[00:03:24] Thank you.

[00:03:25] It's pretty funny.

[00:03:28] Is it complicated?

[00:03:30] I'm not saying sophisticated.

[00:03:33] Complicated, I do think is the word.

[00:03:37] I don't know how to hold off on getting into that part because that's the biggest part of the discussion.

[00:03:42] What if you made Rashomon but you only talked to two people for the entirety of Rashomon?

[00:03:47] What if the Sam Jackson character was supposed to be in Travolta's trunk at the end of the movie

[00:03:53] and they rewrote the whole thing to avoid that and made it too complicated?

[00:03:56] That's the thing.

[00:03:58] We can dig into extra textual facts like that.

[00:04:02] That obviously, if that is true, is a huge problem.

[00:04:06] I did not realize that.

[00:04:08] You've been doing some extra textual work.

[00:04:11] I found out so much stuff about this movie that will blow your mind.

[00:04:14] I actually found out that Sam Jackson and Travolta were in a movie before this together.

[00:04:19] Was it some indie thing?

[00:04:21] Like an art movie or something?

[00:04:23] Some art house garbage.

[00:04:25] It was where you find out who's talking and the person who's talking is a baby.

[00:04:30] You look at them.

[00:04:32] You're like, look who is doing it.

[00:04:35] You forget that Sam Jack was the physical baby that Bruce was voicing.

[00:04:40] That all three Pulp Fiction guys were in the same movie.

[00:04:43] In Rashomon, they talk to various people about the event.

[00:04:47] It's like if you did Rashomon where you go to one guy and he's like, this is what happened.

[00:04:51] The other guy is like, no, this is what happened.

[00:04:53] You go to the other guy and he's like, he's wrong but I was lying.

[00:04:56] Anyway, here's what happened.

[00:04:58] They all agreed that they were going to lie about it.

[00:05:01] But one guy was lying for a different reason.

[00:05:04] All to try to provoke another thing to happen.

[00:05:07] If you actually think about what would happen if this wasn't a movie,

[00:05:11] you've just seen this series of events.

[00:05:13] Travolta sat down with all these people and said, alright, you're going to say this thing happened.

[00:05:17] You're going to say this thing happened.

[00:05:19] We're going to make this guy say this thing happened because he thinks he's incriminated.

[00:05:22] Hopefully, Harry Connick Jr. at some point will point out that this guy wasn't this guy

[00:05:26] so then I can confront him about what actually happened.

[00:05:28] Even though that's not what actually happened.

[00:05:31] All to make this guy do this thing.

[00:05:33] But really we're in section 8.

[00:05:34] There is no internal logic to this movie because it is all to serve, in theory,

[00:05:39] the reaction from the audience delivering the information to them

[00:05:43] in the order that will be most shocking arc site.

[00:05:46] Right?

[00:05:47] I don't want to be so negative so quick, but it's hard to not get into the fact that

[00:05:51] I'm of two minds about this movie, which is I really like it.

[00:05:54] It also objectively makes no sense at any point.

[00:05:57] By the way, I don't mean what I just said fully as a slam

[00:06:01] because I think when a movie can successfully stick the landing

[00:06:04] of being entertaining in that way, I will forgive it not making sense.

[00:06:10] I think that if Travolta in this movie was the audience surrogate

[00:06:14] and he found out everything when we did or just a little bit before us

[00:06:18] and solved the case, it'd be great.

[00:06:20] I mean, the best thing this movie has going for it is

[00:06:23] there's one thing I want out of a movie

[00:06:25] and it's Tom Hardy asking tough questions.

[00:06:27] Well, literally.

[00:06:29] That's what you actually want.

[00:06:31] Yeah, so I need Venom in this are my favorite movies.

[00:06:33] It's like when Tom Hardy is out there asking the tough questions,

[00:06:36] I know that the movie is going to be super entertaining and grounded.

[00:06:39] Are you aware, and let me set up a lot of things here.

[00:06:43] This is Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin.

[00:06:45] Thank you, I'm David. Or am I?

[00:06:47] What?

[00:06:48] I am. Or am I?

[00:06:49] Wait a second, but David Sims is white.

[00:06:54] At what point was he thinking that no one was ever going to check his ID

[00:06:58] the rest of his life and he could just keep pretending to be that guy?

[00:07:01] It's a fun twist.

[00:07:02] I'll say that. The delivery of that twist.

[00:07:04] It's good.

[00:07:05] The moment, the slow motion reaction shot.

[00:07:08] It's like this is just one of those movies where you don't care

[00:07:11] that it doesn't make sense because you're not invested enough to be like,

[00:07:15] no, I need to puzzle this out.

[00:07:16] You're just kind of like, all right, so he's black.

[00:07:19] Whatever you want to do next, just go ahead.

[00:07:21] That's fine.

[00:07:22] I want to restate.

[00:07:23] It not making sense is not a fundamental slam for me.

[00:07:26] Well, I think I'm stating a reality.

[00:07:28] I think the reality of this movie is this is a very,

[00:07:31] very fun movie to me that is unbelievably well made,

[00:07:35] that is not designed to be watched a billion times.

[00:07:38] I watched it more times than George Fulsey Jr.

[00:07:41] to prepare for this podcast.

[00:07:43] And in some ways that was great because I'm prepared,

[00:07:46] but in others it's like the movie does not,

[00:07:49] it's not asking for scrutiny and when I'm giving it,

[00:07:52] it's like, hey, stop, stop watching me please.

[00:07:55] You're noticing too much.

[00:07:56] Please don't watch me.

[00:07:57] I'm begging you not to.

[00:07:58] Don't take me seriously.

[00:07:59] Like, stop giving me the third degree or I'll throw up on you.

[00:08:02] I think it's a little more like, stop giving me the third degree.

[00:08:05] He's like, okay, the character is gay.

[00:08:06] Okay, Ted Levine.

[00:08:07] That's what I'm going to do.

[00:08:08] That's my whole fucking take.

[00:08:11] He was like, how do gay people talk?

[00:08:12] Buffalo Bill.

[00:08:13] I swear, had he never played a gay character before?

[00:08:16] It feels kind of astonishing.

[00:08:18] He's done so many movies.

[00:08:19] But I want to be very clear.

[00:08:20] I think actors should take big swings.

[00:08:22] Like when it comes to acting, I'm like Ponyo, I like Ham.

[00:08:25] I like big swings.

[00:08:27] I love Travolta in this movie.

[00:08:28] I came from Travolta later, but we'll get into it.

[00:08:31] The Giovanni Robisi thing in this, God bless him.

[00:08:34] I like him a lot.

[00:08:35] But I don't know what he was thinking.

[00:08:37] I don't know why no one was like, this, this, what are we playing here?

[00:08:41] Are you trying to be a serial killer or is this what you think gay people are?

[00:08:44] Like, I don't know what's happening.

[00:08:45] There were like seven other Robisi performances I feel that way about.

[00:08:48] And people had prepped me for this one and I'm like, I kind of enjoy it.

[00:08:52] You enjoyed this one?

[00:08:53] I kind of do.

[00:08:54] Oh, I think he is.

[00:08:55] Versus like the gift where I'm like, I want to run head first into a wall.

[00:08:59] Well the problem with the gift where he kind of has a similar function of like,

[00:09:02] Yes.

[00:09:03] Where the like, I'm like, you actually have to pay attention because he's important.

[00:09:07] I know this seems annoying.

[00:09:09] And the amount of shit he's doing makes it hard to digest the information his

[00:09:13] character is delivering.

[00:09:15] But the gift is that performance is maybe even more offensive in a way.

[00:09:20] And in here, you're kind of like, okay, well if I just set the one thing aside,

[00:09:25] he's really just, it's just, you know, whatever.

[00:09:28] The basic style were once again overloading information and order that's confusing to people.

[00:09:32] This is a podcast about filmography.

[00:09:34] Directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series

[00:09:38] of blank checks to pick whatever crazy, passionate projects they want.

[00:09:41] Ben is giving me a thumbs up for knowing how to do my own show.

[00:09:45] We know how to do this.

[00:09:47] We're professionals.

[00:09:49] This is a mini-series on the films of John McTiernan.

[00:09:52] It's called Pod Hard with a Vengecast.

[00:09:56] I'm saluting because we're saying goodbye to Johnny.

[00:09:58] Right.

[00:09:59] It's been so fun with him.

[00:10:01] I was talking about this, this film was 21 years ago and the man's still alive.

[00:10:05] Surely he kept working.

[00:10:06] Oh no, he went to prison.

[00:10:07] This is a real trip for me because I only.

[00:10:09] He went to prison and went bankrupt and never worked again.

[00:10:11] I've only heard three episodes now because of when we're recording this.

[00:10:14] Oh sure.

[00:10:15] So I feel like I'm in some kind of non-linear time travel situation where

[00:10:18] everyone's like, we're at the end of the podcast.

[00:10:20] I'm like, I haven't heard Hunt for Red October yet guys.

[00:10:22] It's a bit of a basic.

[00:10:23] You're going to have to consult us and we'll tell you our interpretation of how

[00:10:26] the other episodes went.

[00:10:28] I'm going to have a lot of questions later when I do my rankings saying,

[00:10:31] did you guys talk about this thing?

[00:10:32] Did you talk about this thing?

[00:10:33] Our guest today is Ben David Grubinsky who is creator, co-creator,

[00:10:37] co-showrunner, Scott Pilgrim takes off, director, writer of Happily,

[00:10:42] many other credits, dear friend of mine.

[00:10:46] But what I was trying to set up here, do you know that based on David, Ben,

[00:10:51] our Spider-Man three episode bit where the two of us and Jamel kept doing

[00:10:58] impressions of Tom Hardy.

[00:10:59] Yeah.

[00:11:00] Being like, why are you corrupt man?

[00:11:02] What's your problem?

[00:11:03] Let me maybe stop doing wars.

[00:11:05] Don't don't be a jerk.

[00:11:08] Hey, I got my notebook here.

[00:11:09] Question one.

[00:11:10] Why are you jerk?

[00:11:11] Ben David's basically spent a year like spiraling out a universe of his

[00:11:16] Girl Friday style.

[00:11:18] All right.

[00:11:19] So I was obsessed with the journalism and venom, and I was a journalist.

[00:11:23] He's a great journalist.

[00:11:24] And I was hard hitting tape.

[00:11:26] Well, I've been making jokes about his journalism for a bit and none of

[00:11:30] them were as good.

[00:11:31] And then when I listened to that episode, I was like scream laughing.

[00:11:34] And I had texted Griffin saying, you know, what I really want a Venom

[00:11:38] movie to be is like his Girl Friday where he's a newspaper man.

[00:11:42] And then and the banters between Eddie and Venom.

[00:11:45] Yeah.

[00:11:46] And I kept joking about this and kind of have people to a point where I

[00:11:52] ended up somehow commissioning a Venom artist to do like the main

[00:11:56] key art from his Girl Friday where they're like on the phone.

[00:12:02] And this won't like because this is radio like this is a TV show.

[00:12:06] Everyone can see what I'm doing.

[00:12:07] We'll post the image.

[00:12:08] I'm going to have to show you guys in order.

[00:12:11] I have seen this.

[00:12:12] I mean, it would make sense that you'd seen it.

[00:12:14] I don't know if you like read my text or not.

[00:12:16] Do you think it would be Eddie?

[00:12:17] Yeah, well, that's the experience.

[00:12:18] The Griffin Newman experience.

[00:12:19] But hell yeah.

[00:12:22] Wait, who made this?

[00:12:25] Sorry.

[00:12:26] I love that.

[00:12:27] It's a guy who does like Venom comics for Marvel.

[00:12:30] And it just became a thing that I thought was the funniest thing in

[00:12:32] the world is like those movies need to be about journalism.

[00:12:35] They need to quadruple down to like the newspaper man movies.

[00:12:39] Like back then, can I do a Marvel comics?

[00:12:43] What if one shot?

[00:12:45] What if Venom worked in a 30s newspaper?

[00:12:48] No, because I'm a fucking idiot and I only keep thinking it has to be a

[00:12:51] thing that costs 100 million dollars.

[00:12:53] Well, no, it should.

[00:12:54] You're right.

[00:12:55] No, but that's that's way easier.

[00:12:58] And something could also black and white is like less of a

[00:13:02] complicated issue with it.

[00:13:04] But that was weirdly when I was watching this first time, I forgot his

[00:13:07] name was Tom Hardy and it just became very funny to me.

[00:13:10] It is so strange.

[00:13:11] Like it is you think about how rarely there is a movie that

[00:13:16] names a character, a name that later will be claimed by a major movie star.

[00:13:22] Tom Hardy.

[00:13:23] But it's because it was inspired by the Hardy Boys, which Vanderbilt

[00:13:27] grew up on and he always wanted to write a Hardy Boys movie.

[00:13:31] And then this was his version of it.

[00:13:32] So he's like, well, I got to call him that.

[00:13:34] This was his version of it?

[00:13:36] Well, he's like the Hardy Boys mystery.

[00:13:38] He was doing like a 90s twisty thriller from his Hardy Boys child brain.

[00:13:45] Because I don't think the Hardy Boys would be part of like a secret anti-drug

[00:13:49] extra military organization.

[00:13:51] Maybe they would.

[00:13:52] I'm pretty sure that those 90s Hardy Boys like blue spine paperback,

[00:13:56] which I still actually own some.

[00:13:58] I think they have like several that were like mystery during a

[00:14:00] hurricane and the cover is like people standing there and things blowing away.

[00:14:04] Can you just imagine if you're watching like a 50s noir movie and the guys

[00:14:08] kept on being like, we're looking for George Clooney.

[00:14:11] See? Bring us Clooney.

[00:14:13] I just like the idea of Eddie investigating someone and being like,

[00:14:17] they seem OK.

[00:14:18] And then Venom being like, no, no, dig deeper.

[00:14:21] Like, you know, like the inner.

[00:14:22] Venom's like, no, it's section eight.

[00:14:24] We don't really know what the take is on Venom three yet, do we?

[00:14:28] Is there any chance it's spotlight?

[00:14:30] Like maybe we don't know.

[00:14:32] It's actually Dark Waters.

[00:14:34] That's where they're going with it.

[00:14:36] It's the one who's it's being directed by Kelly Marr who wrote the first two,

[00:14:40] correct?

[00:14:41] Which is kind of thrilling.

[00:14:42] And she came up with a story with Hardy.

[00:14:45] Co-credited.

[00:14:46] And Juno Temple is like the co-lead.

[00:14:49] Right.

[00:14:50] And she would tell Ejiofor who would never be in a superhero movie.

[00:14:53] Shriek?

[00:14:54] Cool.

[00:14:55] Fine.

[00:14:56] Is that right?

[00:14:57] Yeah, sure.

[00:14:58] I don't know.

[00:14:59] She's playing Madame Web.

[00:15:00] She's playing Madame Web.

[00:15:01] Yes.

[00:15:02] No, I'm sorry.

[00:15:03] Shriek is who fucking was in the last movie.

[00:15:08] Really?

[00:15:09] Yes.

[00:15:10] Wow.

[00:15:11] I don't remember that movie clearly.

[00:15:14] She's playing some female fucking symbiote.

[00:15:18] Maybe she's Black Cat.

[00:15:19] No, she's playing a female symbiote.

[00:15:21] Black Cat.

[00:15:22] How have they never done Black Cat?

[00:15:24] They've done so many Spider-Man movies now.

[00:15:26] You don't remember when Academy Award nominee Felicity Jones walked into...

[00:15:31] Is it Amazing Spider-Man 2?

[00:15:32] Yes.

[00:15:33] Yes.

[00:15:34] And went, hi, I'm Felicia, your new secretary.

[00:15:35] Right.

[00:15:36] It does nothing else and it's never resolved.

[00:15:38] You don't have anything else to say?

[00:15:39] I'll say it when we get to my spin-off movie.

[00:15:41] I don't want to say too much.

[00:15:42] You guys might delete me like Shalene.

[00:15:44] What is the fucking name of...

[00:15:47] It's secreted, please.

[00:15:48] From here on out, it's secreted in honor of Anthony Pelicano.

[00:15:51] What is the name of the symbiote that fucking Juno Temple's playing?

[00:15:55] What the fuck are we talking about?

[00:15:56] I don't know.

[00:15:57] I saw Venom, Let There Be Carbonage, the second Venom film.

[00:16:01] You thought there'd be carbonate?

[00:16:02] Carbonage.

[00:16:03] Right after seeing No Time to Die.

[00:16:05] It was a back-to-back press screening situation.

[00:16:08] They take us to the IMAX, we see No Time to Die, they, spoiler alert, kill James Bond.

[00:16:15] The symbiote scream.

[00:16:17] We walk out of there and we're like, oh, that was a choice.

[00:16:20] This is interesting.

[00:16:21] And it's like...

[00:16:22] Bond died?

[00:16:23] In No Time to Die?

[00:16:24] In No Time to Die?

[00:16:25] Yeah, he died.

[00:16:26] No, it was based on True Story.

[00:16:27] And then it's like, oh, sit down.

[00:16:30] Now you watch Venom, Let There Be Carnage.

[00:16:32] And I was like, I'm not going to engage with this.

[00:16:34] Like, I don't have time for this right now.

[00:16:36] I remember having a fun time.

[00:16:38] It was not unfun.

[00:16:39] I was like, he goes to the club at one point.

[00:16:41] Remember that?

[00:16:42] Yeah, that was fun.

[00:16:43] Yeah, there's stuff.

[00:16:44] I miss Eddie.

[00:16:45] I'm ready for him.

[00:16:46] I'm definitely never going to get to make anything Venom now by saying what I'm about to say, which is that I saw that movie opening night and I don't remember anything.

[00:16:53] And then before I was going on the plane to come here, I was like going through my iTunes to see like movies I bought to like download onto it.

[00:17:01] And one of the movies I bought was like Venom, Let There Be Carnage.

[00:17:04] I was like, wait, I bought that?

[00:17:06] I don't remember it.

[00:17:07] And I purchased it.

[00:17:09] So I was like, I need that.

[00:17:10] I don't remember what happened.

[00:17:12] It's what I...

[00:17:13] The Venom trilogy is like the Hotel Transylvania trilogy where it's this weird battle between star and director.

[00:17:20] And the first movie is like we have entirely different ideas of what movie we're making.

[00:17:24] The second movie they're like, what if we hire a guy who's like Tom Hardy?

[00:17:28] Yes, who will kind of like...

[00:17:29] Is like a weird overly businessy actor but also has the CGI experience because people like that part of it.

[00:17:37] And then the third time they're just like hire the person who Tom agrees with on everything.

[00:17:42] I think the first one, if you chop off everything before Venom appears, I really like.

[00:17:48] Like everything until Venom appears, I'm just like...

[00:17:50] You like when Eddie Brock is a hard hitting journalist.

[00:17:52] Any scene that is...

[00:17:53] No, no, no.

[00:17:54] I'm saying like any scene as Tom Hardy and him, he's arguing with the symbiote is like super entertaining to me.

[00:18:00] You said before he goes full Venom.

[00:18:02] Like when he gets in the lobster tank.

[00:18:03] Yeah, it's like the second that Venom is in frame with him and talking about being losers or they're doing action together, all of that is a blast.

[00:18:12] Anything that's not feels like Madame Webb, but anything that Venom is in is really entertaining.

[00:18:18] And it's like the sheer will of him just performing with himself and the physical stuff he really goes for.

[00:18:25] But until it's there, it's like everyone's bored.

[00:18:28] They're like when is Venom showing up?

[00:18:29] Like why do we have to do all this other stuff?

[00:18:31] I'm going to go out on a limb and I'm going to predict that our very normal online fans will be less upset that we talked about Venom for 10 minutes in a basic episode

[00:18:40] than they were when we talked about Becker for 15 minutes.

[00:18:43] Should we talk about Becker some more?

[00:18:45] Any sympathy for Mr. Vengeance episode?

[00:18:47] This episode has no structure. Have we noticed this?

[00:18:49] It's basic!

[00:18:51] Well the movie is called Basic because it's basic training and he says murder is basic.

[00:18:56] When I realized this movie is set in basic training, I go okay now it's kind of a good title.

[00:19:01] It's just a bad title to put on a poster.

[00:19:04] It's a horrible title to put on a poster.

[00:19:06] And it has aged worse.

[00:19:08] It now has like more weight in terms of slang of just being a write-off.

[00:19:12] But I just remember seeing the poster with these two faces and the title Basic and going like could they really not even bother?

[00:19:20] Right.

[00:19:21] Well I have a rule which is that if there's a great title for a movie that's two words, you can't make a title for another movie using one of the words.

[00:19:28] So they made Basic and they made Instinct.

[00:19:30] Right.

[00:19:31] Which it's like neither of those are titles on their own.

[00:19:34] Together, yes.

[00:19:35] It's like there's not a movie total and there's not a movie recall.

[00:19:37] A total recall is one hell of a movie.

[00:19:39] So I think you have to retire the words as singular titles.

[00:19:43] I think that's a good take.

[00:19:44] Once you have a really good two word title.

[00:19:46] That's my whole take and I'm about to leave.

[00:19:48] Like Blues Brothers, you can't have blues and you can't have brothers.

[00:19:50] Oh they did have brothers.

[00:19:51] They did have brothers.

[00:19:52] Connie Nielsen was in Brothers.

[00:19:53] Four brothers.

[00:19:55] Connie Nielsen.

[00:19:57] We'll talk about Connie Nielsen.

[00:19:58] We're going to talk about it right now because we're going to talk about the film Basic.

[00:20:01] Basic.

[00:20:02] 2003 mystery action film directed by John McTiernan and written by James Vanderbilt.

[00:20:07] Yes, his splashy kind of debut film.

[00:20:10] His calling card screenplay that got him in.

[00:20:13] He's also credited on Darkness Falls and The Rundown this year.

[00:20:17] This was only him.

[00:20:18] I'm in college at the time and I just started writing my first screenplays.

[00:20:22] I moved to LA when I was 2005.

[00:20:24] When you were 2005.

[00:20:26] That was your, you had embodied the year 2005.

[00:20:29] Yes, that was my nickname.

[00:20:31] So I don't even know what that means.

[00:20:33] It seems funny but then it's not.

[00:20:35] The hard thing about it.

[00:20:36] No, I like it.

[00:20:37] But that was like a guy who you're just like, that is an unbelievable career where it's like 2003.

[00:20:43] I could see three movies in a theater and one of them I liked.

[00:20:48] One of them I didn't see because it's Jonathan Liebsman.

[00:20:50] And then the one that I, is a masterpiece is The Rundown.

[00:20:54] If The Rundown was your best movie, you could have a career forever.

[00:20:59] And then he decided I guess also write Zodiac.

[00:21:01] But also, right, if you're a young film nerd who's looking to break into the business

[00:21:05] and you're looking at this guy, you're like this guy in one year, three studio releases that are different genres.

[00:21:12] Like how many people bought Final Draft because of that guy?

[00:21:15] Like at least me.

[00:21:17] It was one of those people where I was just like,

[00:21:19] that was at that time when I would know the person who wrote every movie that came out in calendar year.

[00:21:24] Like I could like, in college I had it and what happened is my sort of like your Griffin box office thing,

[00:21:30] my memory destroyed but for a while I could just say hey who shot this movie?

[00:21:35] They'd say a random movie.

[00:21:36] I'd say the DP.

[00:21:37] Oh who's the director of that?

[00:21:38] Who wrote it?

[00:21:39] I could say any domestic release movie.

[00:21:41] And now I'm like, I think I remember that movie.

[00:21:44] But at that time, I like everybody and it's just like how did that one guy write it?

[00:21:48] All three of those movies and like I really enjoyed Basic but I thought the rundown was fucking unbelievable.

[00:21:54] And it's like one of the strongest out of the gate writing careers ever.

[00:21:58] It is.

[00:21:59] Like two out of the three movies basically, no pun intended, flop.

[00:22:03] And then four years later he writes one of the great American films.

[00:22:07] And then I think everyone was like wait so this guy went from being like whiz kid, spec script master

[00:22:14] to then like delivering all the president's men.

[00:22:17] And he was 26 when they were shooting Basic.

[00:22:21] It has just been this continuing question.

[00:22:23] I propose with no rudeness and we talked about this to a certain degree with Zodiac in that episode.

[00:22:29] But like wait who is this guy?

[00:22:31] The Basic script is good.

[00:22:32] I read it.

[00:22:33] I believe it.

[00:22:34] And I'm very excited that you read it.

[00:22:37] You, we have become friends over the last couple of years.

[00:22:40] You've been a very kind supporter of the podcast.

[00:22:43] And in conversations when you and I go out and we drink too much, you'll often sort of,

[00:22:48] we'll talk about careers the way David and I love to talk about careers.

[00:22:51] We'll just do it wantonly.

[00:22:53] And then you'll sort of say if you ever cover that guy, that's the one I want.

[00:22:57] Now someone recently called out on our Reddit that five years ago Arp called his shot on Basic.

[00:23:03] Oh right?

[00:23:04] When his bit used to be the least essential.

[00:23:07] Like the most irrelevant.

[00:23:08] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:23:09] And I texted Arp last week and I said like someone just recalled this and he went,

[00:23:13] I think we've all agreed that the brand has changed.

[00:23:15] The bit has changed.

[00:23:17] I mean he can go switch back to that if he wants any time.

[00:23:19] It's easy.

[00:23:20] Yeah.

[00:23:21] But he wasn't feeling territorial.

[00:23:22] He said like I'm excited that Ben David is doing it.

[00:23:25] Right.

[00:23:26] Ben David you for the last two years have been pulling in a lot of these sort of old school Arp style bids

[00:23:31] of if you ever cover this person, that's the one I would want to do.

[00:23:35] And Basic was an early pin for you.

[00:23:38] I don't think that's what happened.

[00:23:39] I mean that is what happened with Tom Shadyak's Dragonfly.

[00:23:42] But you called that this morning.

[00:23:45] No, I haven't seen it but I think it'd be fun to talk about.

[00:23:47] And welcome you back in your 20 of the podcast to do Dragonfly.

[00:23:49] No, that one I have mentioned once before.

[00:23:52] I'm like if you don't have anybody I'd really like to do it.

[00:23:54] But that one was we were talking about McTiernan at the Tron Bar in Edinburgh.

[00:23:59] Correct.

[00:24:00] And I just said, you know a movie's actually pretty underrated as Basic and you looked at me and go,

[00:24:05] you're doing it.

[00:24:06] And I was like wait what?

[00:24:07] And you had never said that ever before.

[00:24:09] No, but like we always like if someone actually has an angle on an under discussed part of a director's filmography

[00:24:16] such as Basic, then that's an easy booking.

[00:24:19] We're just like perfect.

[00:24:20] I felt like up until that moment I had not heard a single person have a strong feeling in any direction about Basic as a movie.

[00:24:29] And then I had always thought of it as sort of an ultimate movie that doesn't exist.

[00:24:33] So you saw this in theaters?

[00:24:34] Yeah, so I saw this in theaters.

[00:24:36] I somehow saw like every movie Brian Van Holt was in, in that era by accident.

[00:24:40] Was he like running the box office?

[00:24:42] Like Confidence, what was that movie?

[00:24:44] Is he in Confidence?

[00:24:45] Fuck he is!

[00:24:46] Yeah, he was somehow like the fourth lead in every movie that I saw by myself at the theater in my college town.

[00:24:52] Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that.

[00:24:53] But then he was in Cougar Town and I dressed as Windy Guy for Halloween one year

[00:24:59] where he was a guy who had like his suit where it was like pushed back

[00:25:03] and he had like newspapers on his hair and his hair was gelled back and his umbrella was backwards.

[00:25:08] An incredible psych gag on Cougar Town.

[00:25:10] So yeah, I went as Windy Guy and acted like I was being blown around a party the whole night.

[00:25:14] He is amazing on Cougar Town.

[00:25:17] That was an underrated comic performance on a show that had a lot of underrated comic performances.

[00:25:22] But that's one of my favorite things ever when you like see a guy in a bunch of movies and you're like

[00:25:25] so what is this guy's thing?

[00:25:26] Like he's a good actor, he's a character actor.

[00:25:28] I guess is he going to be a military guy?

[00:25:29] And it's like oh no, he's going to be the funniest guy in a show for eight years.

[00:25:33] It's always the guy you don't expect to be the funniest guy.

[00:25:35] He's also amazing on John from Cincinnati which is obviously forgotten.

[00:25:38] Yes, that's the thing I really remember him from.

[00:25:40] But I mean I've talked about I tracked down the Mill Creek Blu-ray of this movie.

[00:25:45] That's the only physical release it's ever gotten.

[00:25:47] I watched it on Netflix on its last day.

[00:25:49] I bought the DVD just to hear the commentary and I had which I had had and couldn't find

[00:25:54] but then I owned it on iTunes and it was on Netflix.

[00:25:56] This is a Mill Creek Blu-ray that is out of print with zero special features.

[00:26:00] That is two movies on one disc and the second movie is SWAT.

[00:26:04] A great movie.

[00:26:05] A movie David loves so I said to him would you...

[00:26:06] Also starring Brian Van Holt.

[00:26:08] That's what I fucking finally put together today.

[00:26:10] I'm like it's two 2003 Brian Van Holt with a gun movies.

[00:26:13] I mean if you throw confidence on there you could have all three.

[00:26:16] I mean those are all 2003 movies.

[00:26:18] So the basic DVD which I bought I watched all the special features last week.

[00:26:22] Was this a special edition or basic?

[00:26:25] Oh god we're going to run that one into the ground ten minutes ago.

[00:26:27] It might have to be done.

[00:26:28] We're like ten at style.

[00:26:29] We're going in reverse running into the ground.

[00:26:32] So the basic special features the end credits of all of them are that Black Betty cover.

[00:26:37] So they started driving insane.

[00:26:38] It'd be like five minutes on the writers process and then the Black Betty cover

[00:26:41] and then the directors process and then the Black Betty cover

[00:26:44] and then the menu was like the Black Betty cover

[00:26:47] and I'm like guys this didn't work in the movie.

[00:26:49] Like why do I have to keep hearing this Black Betty cover on the DVD?

[00:26:53] But it's that era that is like I would not have my career or my skill set

[00:26:59] if there was not for DVD special features.

[00:27:01] And when I watch them I'm like there's too many here and it also makes me sad

[00:27:05] where there's so many things on the movie basic.

[00:27:08] Where there's just like an 18 minute interview with like Vanderbilt talking about

[00:27:12] like his motivations and rewrites and showing deleted scenes

[00:27:16] and why he agreed that they were cut and like you know what changed

[00:27:19] when different people came on the project and I was like how does this exist?

[00:27:23] I know.

[00:27:24] For every movie there was basically that amount put in.

[00:27:29] Yeah.

[00:27:30] You do a week right?

[00:27:31] Like after you're done production or when you're about to premiere.

[00:27:34] They should have it for everything but they just stopped.

[00:27:37] It's not that difficult.

[00:27:38] Like you can shoot stuff on set, do EPK, do whatever.

[00:27:41] The thing I mostly want is the commentaries.

[00:27:43] Like that's the thing I probably do the most on a physical release

[00:27:47] but I like everything.

[00:27:48] I'm going to anonymize this.

[00:27:50] Wow.

[00:27:51] I think you guys both know who I'm talking about.

[00:27:53] I talked to a very major filmmaker who in recent years has done a lot of work with Netflix

[00:27:58] about the death of the special features

[00:28:01] who made it clear to me that a lot of that material has been delivered to Netflix

[00:28:05] because for a period of time they were considering it

[00:28:08] and now have decided against it because they don't think it helps their algorithm.

[00:28:13] And so there are commentaries and featurettes and all these things

[00:28:17] for a lot of Netflix original movies that were made a couple years ago

[00:28:21] that now just sit abandoned.

[00:28:23] Let's have them.

[00:28:24] I can't tell if this is a brag or embarrassing but I have to say

[00:28:27] you made a comment like that recently on the show.

[00:28:30] Yeah, you're like a friend of the pod said this thing

[00:28:33] and I texted you I'm like who said that?

[00:28:35] I agree with him.

[00:28:36] You're like that was you.

[00:28:37] You mother fucker.

[00:28:38] You after three drinks.

[00:28:40] You saw Basic in theaters.

[00:28:41] Griffin had you ever seen Basic before?

[00:28:42] No, I hadn't seen it until last night.

[00:28:43] I saw Basic on an 8 inch TV in the Adirondacks when it was raining one day.

[00:28:49] Perfect basic weather.

[00:28:50] Yep, perfect basic weather.

[00:28:52] Clearly absorbed none of it because I watched this movie with fresh eyes.

[00:28:57] I knew there were twists and I think I knew, spoiler alert for Basic,

[00:29:03] that Samuel L. Jackson was alive at the end.

[00:29:05] Like I vaguely remembered that it ended with Travolta going to hang out with him

[00:29:08] and being like ha ha ha ha.

[00:29:10] We did it.

[00:29:11] That's all I remembered though.

[00:29:13] And this plot is so confusing and twisty and it's sophisticated

[00:29:19] that I was like wow maybe I remember nothing.

[00:29:21] Maybe it's going to totally surprise me.

[00:29:23] And then at the end they were drinking beers together.

[00:29:25] Well, the real issue today I forgot and it's not my place to say

[00:29:28] but I wanted to encourage people that if you haven't seen it

[00:29:32] to not listen to what I said that it makes no sense

[00:29:35] because I think it's important on first viewing to think it's going to make sense.

[00:29:39] I think that you shouldn't go into it knowing that nothing they're saying

[00:29:44] actually makes sense or happened.

[00:29:46] It is the anti-inherent vice.

[00:29:49] Where like inherent vice I believe strongly you need to watch it

[00:29:53] with the understanding that none of it matters

[00:29:55] and that you only need to be following it on an emotional character level.

[00:29:59] Like the first time I saw that movie I hated it because I was trying to puzzle it out

[00:30:04] and that is not the way to watch that film.

[00:30:06] This movie you need to believe that none of this is meaningless or nonsense.

[00:30:11] You need to, like you can't, the enjoyment of it is thinking it's going to add up.

[00:30:17] You have to go along with their charade.

[00:30:19] I also, I mean the poster which it's like Travolta looking skeptical.

[00:30:24] Jackson, you know he's got kind of like a cape vibe.

[00:30:29] I mean what looks like the trench coat which is basically

[00:30:32] historically Samuel Jackson's greatest co-star across his career is a long fucking duster.

[00:30:39] It is in fact a cape or a poncho or whatever it is.

[00:30:42] A poncho I think, right.

[00:30:43] And then there are a bunch of shadowy figures behind Jackson

[00:30:45] and it says deception is the most dangerous weapon.

[00:30:48] The poster looks like you're, like a movie about Travolta

[00:30:51] trying to take down like kind of a black ops unit led by Jackson that's gone rogue.

[00:30:56] The poster should be like this is mostly set in two rooms.

[00:31:00] Yes.

[00:31:01] Like it's an interview movie.

[00:31:02] This is like a few good men riff.

[00:31:03] Yeah, exactly.

[00:31:04] My cultural memory of this movie was that poster

[00:31:08] and I remember seeing trailers or TV ads where I'm just like,

[00:31:10] I just remember guys standing in the rain screaming pointing guns at each other.

[00:31:14] I remember seeing the plane.

[00:31:16] I have no idea what this movie is other than it's some sort of military intrigue investigation

[00:31:20] that seems very emotionally wrought.

[00:31:22] Now we did our legal draft episode with The Big Picture a couple months ago.

[00:31:27] True.

[00:31:28] Five years ago now probably by the time this episode comes out

[00:31:31] where I watched a few good men and the new Friedkin,

[00:31:36] Kane Mutiny, court martial very closely together.

[00:31:40] And this movie, I would believe you if you told me

[00:31:43] this was like a black box play that people fucking loved.

[00:31:47] Right.

[00:31:48] And it was like it was blowing up in LA

[00:31:50] and then they tried to adapt it

[00:31:52] and it was a little hard to open up the story for the screen.

[00:31:55] It feels like not a spec script of like,

[00:31:58] what's the thing I can do to make my career take off in film?

[00:32:03] It weirdly and I'm not saying this is the failing of the script.

[00:32:06] It's weirdly a failing of the movie that as you said,

[00:32:09] it feels like it takes place in two rooms.

[00:32:11] Basically with flashbacks.

[00:32:13] Yeah.

[00:32:14] But hospital bed and random room that Brian Van Holt is in.

[00:32:16] And most of the flashbacks are in two rooms.

[00:32:19] Yeah.

[00:32:20] Well, the script was much smaller and before McTiernan came on,

[00:32:22] this was a Catherine Keener and Benicio del Toro movie.

[00:32:25] That I found out.

[00:32:26] We're going to talk about that.

[00:32:27] Yeah, yeah.

[00:32:28] And I like that pitch.

[00:32:29] I like that pitch a lot.

[00:32:30] And especially like the Catherine Keener pitch.

[00:32:32] Love the Catherine Keener pitch.

[00:32:34] But also the drill sergeant guy was a racist white guy

[00:32:39] who like was not introduced in the beginning

[00:32:42] and was only in flashbacks

[00:32:43] and it's just sort of like who killed this guy?

[00:32:45] Right.

[00:32:46] So I think that that guy,

[00:32:48] it's much better if he's a character actor

[00:32:50] and not the thing.

[00:32:51] But we'll get into that later about,

[00:32:53] I think the pros and cons of putting someone as awesome

[00:32:56] as Sam in the movie.

[00:32:57] Yeah, it just, it does unbalance.

[00:32:59] I'm opening the box office.

[00:33:01] Not the box office.

[00:33:02] Close that.

[00:33:03] The dossier, Jesus Christ.

[00:33:04] The box office is open.

[00:33:05] We'll talk about that later.

[00:33:06] Can we trust the dossier who wrote it?

[00:33:07] Was it section eight?

[00:33:09] Oh my God, there's a big eight on the dossier.

[00:33:11] The dossier just threw up on me.

[00:33:15] Oh.

[00:33:16] What's up?

[00:33:17] David.

[00:33:18] Yes?

[00:33:19] I'm stressed out.

[00:33:20] Okay.

[00:33:21] I got something to prove.

[00:33:22] I got shit on my shoulder.

[00:33:23] What's going on?

[00:33:24] Last year I lost Mother's Day.

[00:33:26] You loser.

[00:33:27] I know.

[00:33:28] I came in bronze out of the three Newman children.

[00:33:30] At least you made podium.

[00:33:31] Yeah, there was no fourth kid.

[00:33:33] There's no lower I could have ranked.

[00:33:35] Oh boy.

[00:33:36] Yeah.

[00:33:37] Well, are you ready to win Mother's Day

[00:33:39] and cement your reputation

[00:33:40] as the best gift giver in the family?

[00:33:41] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:33:42] Okay.

[00:33:43] Because I gave her a Blank Shrek T-shirt last year

[00:33:44] and she wasn't that amused.

[00:33:45] Oh.

[00:33:46] Well, give the mom in your life

[00:33:47] an Aura digital picture frame

[00:33:49] preloaded with decades of family photos.

[00:33:51] That's what will win me the gold.

[00:33:54] She'll love looking back on your childhood memories

[00:33:56] and seeing what you're up to today.

[00:33:58] Even better, with unlimited storage

[00:33:59] and an easy-to-use app,

[00:34:01] you can keep updating Mom's frame with new photos

[00:34:03] so it's the gift that keeps on giving.

[00:34:05] Okay?

[00:34:06] Although you could also just give an Aura frame

[00:34:08] to anyone else in your life

[00:34:09] and put in any kind of photos you want in there.

[00:34:11] That's true.

[00:34:12] But right now, Aura has a great deal for Mother's Day.

[00:34:14] Yeah.

[00:34:15] Listeners can save on the perfect gift

[00:34:17] by visiting AuraFrames.com

[00:34:19] to get $30 off plus free shipping

[00:34:21] on their best-selling frame.

[00:34:23] That's A-U-R-A, frames.com.

[00:34:26] Use code check at checkout to save.

[00:34:29] Terms and conditions apply.

[00:34:30] David, Mother's Day isn't the only major holiday coming up.

[00:34:33] There's also David's Day.

[00:34:35] Okay.

[00:34:36] And what if I got you an Aura frame

[00:34:37] filled with photos of Colin Farrell?

[00:34:39] That's lovely.

[00:34:40] And you can sort of chart his rise and fall, fresh face.

[00:34:43] Oh, any rebound.

[00:34:44] Come on, Oscar nominee.

[00:34:46] Well, I'm sorry, rise and fall and rise?

[00:34:48] The first...

[00:34:50] We've talked about many things

[00:34:51] that McTiernan was attached to

[00:34:53] that never happened, right?

[00:34:55] This is post-Rollerball,

[00:34:57] during Rollerball's production, I guess.

[00:34:59] Andrew Vanya, who produces many

[00:35:03] of Schwarzenegger film, obviously,

[00:35:05] pitches him on Terminator 3

[00:35:06] as we discuss on that Patreon episode,

[00:35:09] and then also pitches him on Basic Instinct 2.

[00:35:13] Yes, right.

[00:35:14] Which people forget was a David Cronenberg project

[00:35:19] that was, you know, immediately fell apart

[00:35:23] because he and Sharon Stone didn't get along.

[00:35:25] Stunning.

[00:35:26] That like there might be some issues there.

[00:35:28] Basic Instinct 2, a classic,

[00:35:30] they really tried to make the A version of that movie.

[00:35:34] They could not figure it out.

[00:35:36] And then realized that they had constructed contracts

[00:35:39] where they were going to have to pay

[00:35:41] Sharon Stone $17 million for not making the movie.

[00:35:44] Right.

[00:35:45] And they were like,

[00:35:46] let's just make the shitty version.

[00:35:47] Like we just make the most...

[00:35:48] Poor old David Morrissey.

[00:35:49] Absurd, ridiculous version of this movie

[00:35:51] because otherwise we're just taking a complete bath.

[00:35:54] Well, I was told that McTiernan got really far down the road

[00:35:56] on Basic Instinct 2 and then at the last minute quit

[00:35:59] and jumped to this.

[00:36:01] I can tell you exactly that

[00:36:02] because Benjamin Bratt was his chosen star.

[00:36:05] He said the title has two words too many.

[00:36:08] Can we just call it basic?

[00:36:09] I'm sorry, go on.

[00:36:11] He was very high on Bratt's traffic performance.

[00:36:15] Makes sense.

[00:36:16] Bratt is very good in traffic.

[00:36:17] Makes sense.

[00:36:18] And was like this guy's a movie star.

[00:36:20] Bratt decides not to do the movie,

[00:36:22] decides to instead make the Stephen Gagin movie abandoned,

[00:36:25] which is mostly forgotten, I would say.

[00:36:28] And so then McTiernan turns to Pierce Brosnan,

[00:36:32] which I love.

[00:36:34] I mean, not that that movie is ever going to be good.

[00:36:36] I mean, like who knows?

[00:36:37] But like, you know,

[00:36:38] the script that we are working with, I think is pretty bad.

[00:36:41] I think any sexy thriller that looks like a McTiernan movie

[00:36:43] that has Pierce Brosnan in it, I would watch eight times.

[00:36:47] It's a compelling notion.

[00:36:49] I think he pitched also like what if we don't make it

[00:36:52] Basic Instinct 2?

[00:36:53] What if we literally call it Risk Addiction?

[00:36:55] Yes.

[00:36:56] It has a Basic Instinct vibe and it's Pierce and Sharon.

[00:36:59] But you do a runaway bride basically.

[00:37:01] I mean, obviously not the same two stars,

[00:37:03] but you just go like it's Sharon doing her thing again.

[00:37:06] And he has this whole pitch of like maybe, you know,

[00:37:10] I don't know, maybe the brat pitch at least was like

[00:37:13] the character can be Cuban and he's seduced by wealth

[00:37:16] and luxury, not just the woman.

[00:37:18] Like, you know, he has lots of ideas.

[00:37:20] Eventually, yes, he probably just sees the writing on the wall

[00:37:22] of like, this is a nightmare.

[00:37:24] Like, you're following up a big hit.

[00:37:26] You're working with someone who has their own stake

[00:37:28] in the project.

[00:37:29] Like it's not going to work out.

[00:37:30] He runs away from it.

[00:37:31] A project that was so cursed that Robert Downey Jr.

[00:37:33] turned down the opportunity to be in it.

[00:37:35] In the early 2000s.

[00:37:36] Yes.

[00:37:37] There's another movie called The Extractors.

[00:37:40] Do you guys know this movie?

[00:37:41] I don't think so.

[00:37:42] Written by Kevin Foxx and James DeMonaco,

[00:37:44] who wrote The Negotiator.

[00:37:46] It's about a group of ex-cons who break prisoners

[00:37:49] out of jail for a price.

[00:37:50] Sounds kind of cool.

[00:37:52] He wants to make it with Samuel L. Jackson.

[00:37:54] That sounds fun.

[00:37:55] Doesn't happen.

[00:37:57] Interesting.

[00:37:58] And he also circles a movie written by Leslie Dixon,

[00:38:02] who wrote Thomas Crown, called Smoke and Mirrors,

[00:38:05] which is the thing about the guy that Houdini's name

[00:38:09] is based on.

[00:38:10] Right.

[00:38:11] Jean-Robert Houdin.

[00:38:12] We've talked about this.

[00:38:13] And he wanted Michael Douglas and Catherine

[00:38:15] Zeta-Jones to be in it.

[00:38:16] Yes.

[00:38:17] Doesn't happen.

[00:38:18] Okay.

[00:38:19] That's McTiernan.

[00:38:20] James Vanderbilt.

[00:38:21] So do you know James Vanderbilt?

[00:38:22] No.

[00:38:23] I mean like, we follow each other on Twitter,

[00:38:25] which I would never call something else,

[00:38:26] which will probably not even exist by the time

[00:38:28] this episode comes out.

[00:38:30] Or we will own it.

[00:38:32] It'll be one or the other.

[00:38:33] No, it's just been, you know,

[00:38:35] one of those people who are like,

[00:38:36] that guy's awesome for a very long time.

[00:38:41] But yeah, I'm sort of just fascinated by his career

[00:38:45] and his output.

[00:38:46] And it's one of those guys who's just like,

[00:38:48] it's like multiple movies that could just be

[00:38:51] like the only cool movie you made.

[00:38:53] Yeah.

[00:38:54] He graduates from USC,

[00:38:56] and he sells this screenplay for about $500,000.

[00:39:01] He's like 25 at the time?

[00:39:02] Yep.

[00:39:03] Yeah.

[00:39:04] Nice work if you can get it.

[00:39:05] There was a big bidding war about it.

[00:39:06] Lee Tamahori is the original director.

[00:39:11] Coming off of Along Came a Spider, I think.

[00:39:13] Correct.

[00:39:14] Who also at one point was supposed to do

[00:39:16] Basic Instinct 2.

[00:39:17] Like I find the soup of all of these like...

[00:39:20] It's so true.

[00:39:21] And it's in this last gasp era of these R-rated thrillers

[00:39:25] with older movie stars.

[00:39:26] I mean, every movie has a list of the same 10 guys

[00:39:29] who they go to if they're available.

[00:39:30] But this real like McTiernan's on a downswing,

[00:39:33] Tamahori seems like he might be on an upswing.

[00:39:36] They're still trying to make R-rated thrillers

[00:39:38] for grownups with movie stars.

[00:39:40] All this money is getting slushed around,

[00:39:42] and then it's like,

[00:39:43] do they have to be sequels to old things?

[00:39:45] Whatever. Go on.

[00:39:46] Del Toro and Keener.

[00:39:48] That's announced.

[00:39:50] It's like announced in variety.

[00:39:51] Del Toro's just won his Oscar.

[00:39:53] Keener just is coming off of like being John Malkovich, etc.

[00:39:56] You know what's wilder than that?

[00:39:58] Because I looked up the variety story

[00:40:00] announcing Keener and Del Toro in talks

[00:40:02] for Tamahori's Basic.

[00:40:04] The story calls out there's a lot of buzz

[00:40:07] about his role in the upcoming Stephen Soderbergh film, Traffic.

[00:40:11] They announced that he's being cast

[00:40:13] in the lead-up to Traffic's release.

[00:40:15] Right, yeah, it's Traffic Buzz.

[00:40:17] You're right.

[00:40:18] It's Traffic Buzz.

[00:40:19] Which would have fucking...

[00:40:22] But I do know that movie version

[00:40:24] was supposed to be like a quarter of the budget

[00:40:26] of what this one was.

[00:40:27] Right, which makes sense.

[00:40:29] Probably would have been to everyone's benefit?

[00:40:32] No, I mean, I love how McTiernan executed this,

[00:40:36] but I think that this movie inherently

[00:40:38] should have been a smaller character sort of thing.

[00:40:42] You can speak to this,

[00:40:44] not to just briefly pause the context here,

[00:40:48] but my thing about this feeling

[00:40:50] like it was adapted off a play

[00:40:53] is not a slam about the script being stagey.

[00:40:56] I read it as, here is a young guy

[00:40:58] writing a script that he thinks

[00:41:00] could feasibly get produced.

[00:41:02] Right, if you're trying to put your

[00:41:04] calling card scripts out there,

[00:41:05] you can write a fucking spec script

[00:41:07] for a 150 million budget thing.

[00:41:09] But that's a huge swing.

[00:41:11] If you write a basic that is just like,

[00:41:13] oh, on the page, this thing's exciting,

[00:41:15] it's got twists, it's got snappy dialogue,

[00:41:17] and you could probably make it for X amount.

[00:41:20] I mean, I think it's funny,

[00:41:22] the first script that I ever sold

[00:41:25] back in 2006 was something that I thought

[00:41:29] was going to be a very small couple people

[00:41:31] in a room movie, and then a studio bought it,

[00:41:34] and they spent all this time being like,

[00:41:36] should it be John Heater?

[00:41:37] Should it be Eddie Murphy?

[00:41:38] Should it be this director?

[00:41:39] Should it be this?

[00:41:40] And the whole time I'm like,

[00:41:41] I just don't know if this works big.

[00:41:44] And then it fell apart, and like 15 years later,

[00:41:48] the producer on it I ran into,

[00:41:50] and he's like, later I realized

[00:41:52] I should have been like a Sundance movie.

[00:41:54] And I was like, well, that's sort of

[00:41:55] what I was thinking at the time,

[00:41:56] is that there's some movies

[00:41:57] where the best version of it is tiny.

[00:42:00] And at what point do we want to talk about

[00:42:02] what happens in the script?

[00:42:03] Should we just get that out of the way now?

[00:42:05] Let's get through the rest of the context.

[00:42:06] I don't want to blow your structure.

[00:42:08] No, no, no, you're not blowing anything.

[00:42:09] Relax, who cares?

[00:42:11] Like you say, intermediate gives them more money,

[00:42:13] and so suddenly it's like, okay,

[00:42:14] this needs to have stars.

[00:42:16] And I think a lot of it too.

[00:42:17] In September 2001,

[00:42:18] a terrible, terrible thing happens.

[00:42:20] John Travolta and Samuel L. Jackson

[00:42:21] are cast in this movie.

[00:42:22] I'm kidding!

[00:42:23] Great joke, Nail,

[00:42:24] the five comedy points.

[00:42:25] No, I just want to say,

[00:42:26] Ben didn't like that.

[00:42:27] It's another thing

[00:42:28] that fucks up the size of this movie

[00:42:30] is like when it's a hot script

[00:42:32] and there's a bidding war,

[00:42:34] and they're paying this much for the script

[00:42:36] after like a fight for the rights,

[00:42:39] then whoever gets it is going to be like,

[00:42:41] well, this is now a major movie.

[00:42:42] Right.

[00:42:43] In our mind, we fought for this.

[00:42:44] This was a jump ball.

[00:42:46] Right.

[00:42:47] We're not going to make this

[00:42:48] as a five million dollar drama.

[00:42:51] Now, as Ben David said,

[00:42:53] did you say this on mic?

[00:42:54] Vanderbilt says this was written

[00:42:56] as a Hardy Boys homage.

[00:42:58] I said that like, yeah,

[00:43:00] that he was called Tom Hardy

[00:43:01] because he always wanted this to be like,

[00:43:03] inspired by his love of Hardy Boys books.

[00:43:05] The Hardy Boys investigate murders,

[00:43:07] isn't it just like someone left some treasure

[00:43:09] in a cave or something?

[00:43:10] I've never read a Hardy Boys book.

[00:43:11] They're usually based on Rashomon

[00:43:13] and during a hurricane.

[00:43:15] It's kind of about like, you know,

[00:43:17] racial dynamics within a military unit.

[00:43:20] Propeller interrogations.

[00:43:22] No, I feel like the Hardy Boys will have the like,

[00:43:25] someone's dead and then the twist at the end is

[00:43:27] they're not, which is what this fucking movie does.

[00:43:29] You know, like I think any threat of death

[00:43:32] in a Hardy Boys story has to be

[00:43:34] undone ultimately by the end.

[00:43:37] A lot of missing.

[00:43:38] Case of the missing blank.

[00:43:42] He's more interested, he says,

[00:43:45] in writing a murder mystery

[00:43:46] than like a military thriller.

[00:43:49] So it's the military side he has to kind of like,

[00:43:51] research and build out.

[00:43:52] Like he structures a screenplay that's like,

[00:43:55] okay, twistier, twistier, twistier, right?

[00:43:56] It's like a murder mystery thing.

[00:43:58] So he's reading all about like,

[00:44:00] army rangers, right?

[00:44:02] And how military interrogation works, I guess.

[00:44:06] Like that's the stuff.

[00:44:07] But I do think it's wise because like,

[00:44:11] military, you can kind of get away with a lot of stuff.

[00:44:14] Like they do seem to just have their own rules, right?

[00:44:17] Or at least audiences can buy like,

[00:44:19] yeah, the cops won't get involved in this.

[00:44:20] Right.

[00:44:21] Like they'll figure it out.

[00:44:22] My perception is that they have their own rules,

[00:44:24] which is probably wrong.

[00:44:25] It might be a slightly like,

[00:44:27] facile way of thinking about it,

[00:44:28] but I think it's kind of true.

[00:44:29] It's what I've learned from the movies

[00:44:31] and it's why movies can still

[00:44:32] keep pulling that shit on me.

[00:44:34] Yes.

[00:44:36] He wanted with Hardy to make an atypical action hero.

[00:44:40] He hasn't shaved.

[00:44:41] He drinks, right?

[00:44:43] The audience will...

[00:44:44] Atypical hero.

[00:44:45] Sounds like you've just described.

[00:44:46] John McClain, the guy you created,

[00:44:49] helped create who then became a prototype.

[00:44:52] No, but Vanderbilt wants this.

[00:44:54] Oh, Vanderbilt.

[00:44:55] Sorry, sorry, sorry.

[00:44:56] This isn't yet McTiernan,

[00:44:57] but in the initial script, apparently,

[00:45:02] Hardy is the villain.

[00:45:03] This is what you're referring to, right, Ben, David?

[00:45:05] Like it's like he killed West.

[00:45:09] Yeah, it's not necessarily that he's a villain,

[00:45:11] but he did kill him and cover it up

[00:45:14] and they all worked together.

[00:45:17] He did the whodunit.

[00:45:18] Yeah, because in the script, if I remember correctly,

[00:45:20] I haven't read it in a bit,

[00:45:21] you realize the way it was originally constructed

[00:45:23] is that Sam Jackson's character

[00:45:25] was in on the drug thing

[00:45:27] and Travolta had an axe to grind

[00:45:30] because he had worked under him a long time ago,

[00:45:33] but everyone was sort of bad on some level,

[00:45:37] but he was sort of a bad guy killing a bad guy

[00:45:39] and covering it up,

[00:45:40] and the movie ended with his character in Travolta's character's trunk.

[00:45:44] Yes, right.

[00:45:45] He's been there the whole time.

[00:45:47] Yeah, like he's basically been dead in his trunk

[00:45:49] the whole time,

[00:45:50] and you find out like on the last page of the movie,

[00:45:52] and I think it's one of those things

[00:45:55] where McTiernan was right

[00:45:57] that if Sam Jackson is that character,

[00:45:59] you can't do that.

[00:46:00] The first time they meet, he's like,

[00:46:02] we just can't do that.

[00:46:04] We can't kill Sam Jackson.

[00:46:05] But it's like the problem that he's created

[00:46:07] by casting Sam Jackson,

[00:46:08] which is like you want more Sam Jackson,

[00:46:10] you want scenes with him and Travolta together,

[00:46:12] but it's also like a much more simpler movie

[00:46:16] to not have the Section 8 stuff.

[00:46:18] Like all the Section 8 stuff is invented

[00:46:21] to create an additional twist

[00:46:24] to not have it end with Sam Jackson dead in a trunk.

[00:46:29] The Section 8 thing is so fucking stupid.

[00:46:31] Yes.

[00:46:32] I don't mind because like we've all been saying,

[00:46:34] it's just sort of like, okay,

[00:46:36] this movie's not been good enough

[00:46:38] for me to object too hard.

[00:46:40] But yeah, there's just like,

[00:46:41] yeah, we're Section 8,

[00:46:42] we kill our, like we pretend to die,

[00:46:45] and then we deal with problems.

[00:46:46] I'm like, now you faked your death.

[00:46:48] You can't like reappear.

[00:46:50] The thing where Connie Nielsen is walking down

[00:46:52] like Bourbon Street in slow motion,

[00:46:54] and she looks up,

[00:46:55] and she sees the giant inflatable eight ball

[00:46:58] and like donk donk happens on the score,

[00:47:00] feels like when a single camera 2000s comedy show

[00:47:06] parodies a movie with too many twists.

[00:47:08] Well, when they first met,

[00:47:09] when she says her whole thing about Infinity

[00:47:11] or Section 8 on the commentary,

[00:47:13] McTiernan said,

[00:47:14] oh, they just did the X-Files theme in the score.

[00:47:16] Oh, the composer threw that in without me realizing it.

[00:47:18] And it's like, it feels to me...

[00:47:21] A lot of off the rack.

[00:47:22] Like the thing that McTiernan is so good at is,

[00:47:26] one, he says he is always trying to make a boy's adventure,

[00:47:28] but two, he's the king of making movies

[00:47:31] that could be dark, but feel joyful.

[00:47:33] Like if you think about all of his best movies,

[00:47:36] there is this thing I get,

[00:47:38] this jolt of happiness from watching them.

[00:47:40] Totally.

[00:47:41] And it's all designed for him because he's like,

[00:47:44] I want to have the movie end with you leaving

[00:47:46] being like, yeah, you know,

[00:47:49] but this is not that kind of movie.

[00:47:51] I think the best version of Basic

[00:47:52] makes you leave kind of bummed out.

[00:47:54] And I think that he found to him

[00:47:57] what was the best way to make a version of the story

[00:48:00] that had kind of a fun twist ending

[00:48:03] where it's kind of like,

[00:48:04] these people are all friends now

[00:48:05] and they're going to go on an adventure

[00:48:06] and yay, movies!

[00:48:08] Which is usually my favorite way to feel after a movie.

[00:48:11] But with this, it feels forced.

[00:48:12] It's the runaway.

[00:48:13] It feels like you're doing a dark murder mystery,

[00:48:15] but at the end, it's like kind of Scooby-Doo.

[00:48:18] If Del Toro is playing this character

[00:48:20] and it turns out he has a body in his trunk,

[00:48:22] the audiences would walk out being like,

[00:48:24] that makes sense.

[00:48:25] But Del Toro killing a racist white drill sergeant,

[00:48:28] they're like, okay, I get it.

[00:48:30] There'd be kind of a nasty buzz.

[00:48:32] Like people would be a little amped up by

[00:48:34] the Tarantino-esque,

[00:48:36] I watched something that feels a little uncomfortable.

[00:48:38] I do think McTernan Travolta both are right

[00:48:41] because Travolta also was like,

[00:48:42] he can't be an out and out villain.

[00:48:44] Yeah, no, Travolta can't have killed Samuel L. Jackson.

[00:48:47] People would hate that.

[00:48:49] But also in this weird era of Travolta,

[00:48:52] clearly wanting to play more villainous,

[00:48:55] wanting to play heel.

[00:48:57] You get the sort of face-off dip,

[00:49:00] the toe in the water of having it both ways.

[00:49:03] But it's like, this is coming off of Swordfish.

[00:49:06] He's in this can I be a piece of shit mode?

[00:49:09] Look, I have a Travolta.

[00:49:12] I have something on that.

[00:49:13] When I watch this movie to prepare...

[00:49:15] And I recently rewatched Swordfish.

[00:49:17] When I watched this movie to prepare for the pod

[00:49:19] on a plane a couple months ago,

[00:49:21] I brought this in Swordfish on a plane

[00:49:23] and watched him back to back.

[00:49:24] You were probably watching this, FYI.

[00:49:26] That was wild.

[00:49:27] I'm like, I'm the only person on a plane

[00:49:29] who's ever watched basic and Swordfish back to back.

[00:49:32] It was a very wild way to look at that point

[00:49:36] in his career, which we can get into later if we want.

[00:49:38] Well, you know what?

[00:49:39] Now we just have to get right into it.

[00:49:41] Because yes, we have to talk about,

[00:49:43] we're post-Battlefield Earth.

[00:49:45] So obviously there's been a relatively recent

[00:49:47] public humiliation of John Travolta

[00:49:49] after his genuine bounce back post-Pulp Fiction, obviously.

[00:49:54] My only other question,

[00:49:55] just in terms of placing this in context,

[00:49:57] when does this start filming?

[00:49:59] Because of Rollerball being pushed back.

[00:50:02] I'm curious about when this happens.

[00:50:04] Then I have to go back to the dossier.

[00:50:06] I don't know.

[00:50:07] I don't know what I'm trying to find.

[00:50:09] I would say reopen the dossier.

[00:50:11] I would say this is not an incredibly complicated task.

[00:50:16] Griffin, it is because we were still on casting

[00:50:19] and I was going to do Travolta thing.

[00:50:21] We're not in production yet,

[00:50:23] which is later in the dossier.

[00:50:25] I don't know when it will show.

[00:50:26] Then you know what?

[00:50:27] I will open up the dossier YouTube top.

[00:50:29] He doesn't say.

[00:50:30] He blew it.

[00:50:31] Section 8 blew it.

[00:50:32] It doesn't say when they started,

[00:50:34] like what year they started production.

[00:50:36] But when does Rollerball come out?

[00:50:38] Rollerball comes out in 2002,

[00:50:40] February.

[00:50:41] I will look all this up.

[00:50:42] My guess is they shoot this after it comes out.

[00:50:44] Because like,

[00:50:46] how long could they have possibly worked on basic?

[00:50:48] No offense to it.

[00:50:49] Say the point that you were going to make

[00:50:51] and I'm going to try to do the math on all this.

[00:50:53] Travolta is a whole thing.

[00:50:54] Are we ready to open the Travolta box?

[00:50:56] So like 90s Travolta, right?

[00:50:58] Post-Pulp Fiction.

[00:50:59] Get Shorty.

[00:51:00] Michael we've discussed.

[00:51:01] But was it a hit, right?

[00:51:03] Was Michael a hit?

[00:51:04] Denominon, a hit.

[00:51:05] Broken Arrow, a hit.

[00:51:07] Reasonable hit, yeah.

[00:51:10] Face Off, a hit.

[00:51:11] Big hit.

[00:51:12] Civil Action didn't do that well but got okay reviews.

[00:51:14] People forget of course he's in every scene of the Thin Red Line.

[00:51:17] He's all over that fucking movie.

[00:51:19] Primary Colors, a hit.

[00:51:20] And Critically Acclaimed.

[00:51:21] Well actually did okay.

[00:51:22] No no, that was not a hit.

[00:51:23] But it did have Critically Acclaimed.

[00:51:24] Critically Acclaimed.

[00:51:25] It gets award attention.

[00:51:26] But was a box office?

[00:51:27] General's Daughter, a genuinely nasty movie.

[00:51:29] A hit.

[00:51:30] 100 million dollar summer blockbuster.

[00:51:32] But what is his persona at this point?

[00:51:34] Impossible to pin down.

[00:51:36] This is what I'm trying to throw to you guys.

[00:51:38] I'm glad we're getting into this.

[00:51:40] And obviously we've discussed Lucky Numbers as well which is a little before this.

[00:51:43] Yeah.

[00:51:44] But it is weird how successful and beloved he is for that run where you're like,

[00:51:50] can you go to any person on the street and have them define what we like about John Travolta?

[00:51:55] Because it's, David do you have a take on this?

[00:51:58] Like, because I think I do.

[00:52:00] He's also not a chameleon.

[00:52:01] It's not like he throws himself into these weird things.

[00:52:04] Part of what I like is I never know what he's going to do next.

[00:52:07] And you're like, he's got a real specific vibe as a performer.

[00:52:12] But then he's applying it in very weird directions.

[00:52:15] But my take is that...

[00:52:17] And disparate directions.

[00:52:18] Once he was doing well again, he sort of felt like, well this is always going to work.

[00:52:23] And he stopped sort of working in things that felt airtight or really exciting.

[00:52:29] Playing with house money now.

[00:52:30] And it's really a point of like, oh well we're going to pay you a lot of money.

[00:52:34] And he's like, oh I think that could be cool.

[00:52:36] I like that guy.

[00:52:37] The confidence is good, I would say.

[00:52:39] Especially for like a broken arrow or a face off.

[00:52:42] Or even a civil action where it's like, yeah you're playing a big personality.

[00:52:46] Right? You're kind of funny.

[00:52:49] You're kind of annoying.

[00:52:51] But people roll with it.

[00:52:53] Right?

[00:52:54] Like something like Get Shorty, that's actually a really honed comic performance.

[00:52:57] Like perfect.

[00:52:58] He's playing a guy who is really locked down and kind of scary.

[00:53:02] He's genuinely threatening.

[00:53:04] He's very funny.

[00:53:05] Like that's a great comic performance.

[00:53:07] Primary Callers I think is a pretty great comic performance.

[00:53:10] Where he's playing a really flawed guy who you're kind of with in the movie.

[00:53:15] And the whole point is you fall out of love with him.

[00:53:17] Much like the main character.

[00:53:19] By the end you're like, I know why people like this guy.

[00:53:22] But I have sort of come to learn how flawed he is.

[00:53:25] Face off, broken arrow.

[00:53:27] I like these performances.

[00:53:28] But this is more just him being like, I can go how big?

[00:53:31] Like this? This? This?

[00:53:33] I think you're getting to the heart of the thing.

[00:53:35] I think you're right.

[00:53:36] Which is he has this insane comeback thing, right?

[00:53:40] And I've talked about this before in previous episodes I've talked about that I feel the framing of Tarantino saved Travolta from oblivion is incorrect.

[00:53:51] Because the Look Who's Talking movies were so fucking big.

[00:53:54] And older listeners will be like, you don't understand.

[00:53:57] That didn't matter.

[00:53:58] He was not a serious movie star.

[00:53:59] No.

[00:54:00] Which I agree with.

[00:54:01] But he was a movie star.

[00:54:02] He was in movies.

[00:54:03] I think the better analogy is like pre-McConnison's McConaughey.

[00:54:07] Where it's like this guy had ten years of hits that no one respected.

[00:54:11] That then started to wane off.

[00:54:13] Where it's like now...

[00:54:14] He's gotten bumped down a couple tears.

[00:54:15] Totally.

[00:54:16] But he's still one above the title guy.

[00:54:18] It wasn't that long ago that it was, you know, how to lose a guy in ten days rather than ghosts of girlfriends past.

[00:54:24] And when he started being good again it was like, oh shit.

[00:54:27] He's back to A-list and also we take him seriously now.

[00:54:30] So Pulp Fiction is coming off of his biggest hit.

[00:54:33] But it's a hit that didn't give him any credibility.

[00:54:36] None at all.

[00:54:37] Like if anything it may have hurt his credibility even if it raised his quote.

[00:54:40] It made him seem silly and it's sort of the kind of movie where I think the studios almost go, oh that's like a movie star that dumb people like.

[00:54:48] In silly movies.

[00:54:50] If you look at his 90s post-Pulp Fiction there are no flops.

[00:54:56] No.

[00:54:57] There are movies that get less good reviews or whatever.

[00:54:59] There's gonna be White Man's Bird and White Man's Bird doesn't really count because that was shot before Pulp Fiction.

[00:55:03] Yeah, I mean that movie is insane.

[00:55:06] Have you seen that movie?

[00:55:07] Yeah, that movie is...

[00:55:09] But that one doesn't count.

[00:55:10] Ben, just quickly just to get your response on Mike, do you know what White Man's Bird is?

[00:55:14] It's Thinking Emoji the movie if you want.

[00:55:18] I'm not familiar with it.

[00:55:19] It's one of your classic Travolta Harry Belafonte two-handers.

[00:55:22] Tell them the premise.

[00:55:24] I want you to understand this is the movie Travolta has in the can when he does Pulp Fiction.

[00:55:28] It was produced by Lawrence Bender. It was a Jersey movie.

[00:55:31] And the premise is what if we lived in a society where Black people were racist to White people?

[00:55:39] Like Black people are on top and White people are not.

[00:55:43] You don't have to explain it.

[00:55:44] No, let me explain it some more. So like the rich guys are Black people.

[00:55:48] This insane what if.

[00:55:49] Yes.

[00:55:50] And that's it. That's the movie's whole take on that.

[00:55:53] Harry Belafonte lives in a mansion and he's like, who's this dirty White man outside on my lawn?

[00:55:58] And they get into a fight.

[00:55:59] It's legit that approach.

[00:56:01] That is the movie.

[00:56:02] The rich guys.

[00:56:04] And you're like, oh, do you have any more for me on this?

[00:56:06] No, not really.

[00:56:07] This wasn't a porch movie?

[00:56:09] Absolutely not.

[00:56:10] And I just I want to be really crystal clear as far as what my take is on this thing I just heard about the first time.

[00:56:16] It sounds like trash.

[00:56:18] And I have zero interest in ever engaging with it.

[00:56:20] Yes.

[00:56:21] I watched it on TV.

[00:56:22] It's interesting.

[00:56:23] But like that movie comes out the same year as Get Shorty, right?

[00:56:26] It's like Pulp Fiction.

[00:56:27] Holy shit. Travolta. Oscar nomination.

[00:56:29] Get Shorty.

[00:56:30] What a good follow up.

[00:56:31] Has Travolta figured it out?

[00:56:33] Like Get Shorty, Pulp Fiction back to back.

[00:56:35] You're like, does he know who 40 something Travolta is to a T?

[00:56:40] Is he picking the exact right material?

[00:56:42] Is this movie star persona so honed?

[00:56:44] White man's burden.

[00:56:45] Everyone's like, we all agree to just ignore this.

[00:56:47] Forget that one.

[00:56:48] John Mulligan.

[00:56:49] It's fine.

[00:56:50] 96 he makes four hits.

[00:56:52] Michael, hit.

[00:56:53] Phenomenon, hit.

[00:56:54] Broken Arrow, hit.

[00:56:55] Orientation, a Scientology information film.

[00:56:57] They showed that to this day.

[00:56:59] That thing is watched.

[00:57:00] There's residuals on that thing.

[00:57:02] And then yeah, okay in 97 Mad City is not a hit, but like you're going to do a

[00:57:05] Coast to Gavras movie with Dustin Hoffman.

[00:57:07] She's so lovely.

[00:57:08] Same kind of deal of like, oh it's an unmade Cassavetes script.

[00:57:11] Don't you want to do that?

[00:57:12] Got like a Sagnon.

[00:57:13] I actually think he's quite good in that film.

[00:57:15] He is.

[00:57:16] And then 98 like Civil Action is not a hit.

[00:57:18] But based off huge hit, like covers those things.

[00:57:19] I like that movie.

[00:57:20] Yeah.

[00:57:21] And once again, like give some credibility.

[00:57:22] Faceoff is in my top five of all time, so no one's allowed to talk shit while I'm

[00:57:25] in New York City.

[00:57:26] I like Faceoff more than him.

[00:57:27] I love Faceoff.

[00:57:28] I just prefer Con Air.

[00:57:29] Which is an insane argument.

[00:57:30] This is the hottest argument all over again.

[00:57:32] But it doesn't.

[00:57:33] Insane opinion.

[00:57:34] Con Air is great, but what the fuck?

[00:57:35] I'm just telling you what my taste is.

[00:57:36] Con Air is like a lot of fun.

[00:57:37] Faceoff is special.

[00:57:38] It's not a value judge.

[00:57:39] I'm just telling you what my taste is.

[00:57:40] Faceoff is one of the best American action movies ever made even though it's not

[00:57:45] made by an American.

[00:57:46] And Con Air is awesome.

[00:57:48] I love Con Air, but it's not like a great action movie.

[00:57:51] Although it's one of the best ensemble casts of all time.

[00:57:53] Con Air has an amazing cast.

[00:57:54] That's probably why I like it more because it's character actor city.

[00:57:58] There are character actors in Faceoff.

[00:58:00] I mean-

[00:58:01] Con Air has more character actors than any movie has ever had.

[00:58:03] Doing insane shit.

[00:58:04] There's really good actors having a really good time in Faceoff.

[00:58:08] I love Faceoff!

[00:58:09] Both movies have a lot of ideas.

[00:58:12] Both movies have extensive face surgery, right?

[00:58:14] Oh no, it's just Faceoff that has that.

[00:58:16] 1997, man.

[00:58:17] Those movies just came out months apart.

[00:58:20] I love that when they put Nicolas Cage on the rock it's like,

[00:58:23] what if we put this guy who has no business being in an action movie in it

[00:58:26] and that will give it such a unique energy?

[00:58:28] And within months he's like, I'm ripped and I'm a fucking action star.

[00:58:32] I make these now.

[00:58:33] And it's like, yeah dude.

[00:58:34] Let's throw out Travolta and Cage's counterpoints, right?

[00:58:38] Where it's like, Cage weirdo actor gets his 90s legitimacy Oscar.

[00:58:43] Wins the Oscar.

[00:58:44] It's now like, oh fuck is this guy a conventional A-list movie star?

[00:58:47] And he's the weirdest version of a movie star.

[00:58:50] But he makes his brand, you don't know what the fuck I'm going to do.

[00:58:53] Right?

[00:58:54] Like to a certain degree he makes his brand Chaos.

[00:58:56] And it's like, I'm going to do everything.

[00:58:59] And what people look for is the energy and the surprise.

[00:59:02] And sometimes he takes huge swings that don't work.

[00:59:04] Travolta is not stretching that far.

[00:59:07] But it also feels like he has no handle on what his thing is.

[00:59:11] And what's wild is that as you said, like in a year like 96,

[00:59:15] you're like Michael Phenomenon Broken Arrow.

[00:59:17] Are any of those exactly what he should be doing?

[00:59:20] We can debate it.

[00:59:21] But audiences are buying all three.

[00:59:24] 1998, Civil Action, Thin Red Line, Primary Colors.

[00:59:27] None of those movies really connected the box office.

[00:59:30] Only two of them is He the Guy.

[00:59:32] But I think the industry is like, look he's making interesting choices.

[00:59:35] We're not going to ding him any points for doing a fucking Nichols movie.

[00:59:39] And a legal thriller and like one scene in a Malick film.

[00:59:42] General's Daughter, huge hit for what you said is a super dark movie

[00:59:46] that shouldn't be commercial.

[00:59:47] It's not good.

[00:59:48] You know it's not good.

[00:59:49] It's directed by Simon West though who you fucking love.

[00:59:52] And apparently are...

[00:59:53] You just said it's better than John Woo?

[00:59:55] It's better than Face Off.

[00:59:56] Yeah.

[00:59:57] But here's my thing about...

[00:59:58] So that was all lead up to 2000s Travolta.

[01:00:02] Exactly.

[01:00:03] Where it feels like the note he has taken from those years is like,

[01:00:06] you guys want like Broken Arrow.

[01:00:09] That's all that you want from me.

[01:00:11] You want me to be really big, charismatic,

[01:00:15] but in kind of like a slimy way.

[01:00:18] And like every role he does,

[01:00:21] lucky numbers we can set aside for a second,

[01:00:23] but that is kind of in that.

[01:00:25] Like domestic disturbance...

[01:00:26] Unsavory.

[01:00:27] Exactly.

[01:00:28] Unsavory.

[01:00:29] Domestic disturbance, swordfish, basic.

[01:00:30] Gold member.

[01:00:32] And himself as Austin...

[01:00:34] Who is he playing?

[01:00:35] He's playing gold member.

[01:00:36] Gold member, right.

[01:00:37] Himself as gold member, right.

[01:00:39] In gold member.

[01:00:40] Like it's just like...

[01:00:42] Why is that the only role you're now doing, buddy?

[01:00:45] And how quickly you get to 2004 and it's like

[01:00:48] you're the villain in The Punisher.

[01:00:50] Right, right.

[01:00:51] It's like now everyone assumes you have a soul patch.

[01:00:54] Even if you don't.

[01:00:55] And you're not even the lead anymore?

[01:00:56] Right.

[01:00:57] As much as we all love overthinking this stuff,

[01:00:58] the thing about him where I kind of don't think too much

[01:01:03] about Travolta in that way is that

[01:01:05] Sirenite Fever is so big.

[01:01:08] It'd be like if you made an album that sold 200 million copies

[01:01:11] and you don't really need to go on tour anymore.

[01:01:14] And sometimes like I miss being a star.

[01:01:16] Oh, it's great, I'm winning awards.

[01:01:17] I guess I'm going to keep being a star.

[01:01:19] Oh, I like doing this.

[01:01:20] It's like he just sort of...

[01:01:22] He will always be John Travolta

[01:01:24] and there'll be ebbs and flows and whatever.

[01:01:26] They'll still let him present at the Oscars every year

[01:01:28] even when he's can't book.

[01:01:29] He's so good at reading cue cards.

[01:01:31] I mean, come on.

[01:01:32] But I think the thing is it's like

[01:01:34] the only thing in the trajectory of his career

[01:01:37] that really stands out in terms of changes

[01:01:41] is that Quentin's a guy who's like

[01:01:45] blowout is amazing and his performance in it is God level.

[01:01:48] That's why I want to put him in here.

[01:01:50] He's not just who's a star I can get.

[01:01:52] Totally.

[01:01:53] Whereas almost 99% of his movies are,

[01:01:56] we need a movie star.

[01:01:57] Is Travolta still a star?

[01:01:58] Oh, he is, great.

[01:01:59] Let's get Travolta.

[01:02:00] Like it's not usually as a laser focus.

[01:02:03] I think that's true.

[01:02:05] Who's a guy who you put above the title?

[01:02:07] He still counts as an above the title guy.

[01:02:09] Swordfish to me is just the nexus of so many things though.

[01:02:12] Because Swordfish is a movie where

[01:02:15] Hugh Jackman is the lead of the film

[01:02:17] and is the handsome good guy.

[01:02:19] As a hacker who really should be like

[01:02:21] a John Hawks style guy or like Scoot McNary.

[01:02:25] Instead he's like Wolverine Bod lives in an Airstream trailer.

[01:02:29] You want to fuck him every second he's on screen.

[01:02:32] Halle Berry can't stop showing him her boobs.

[01:02:35] He shows him her boobs for one second, but yes.

[01:02:37] But it's part of the plot.

[01:02:38] She's trying to trick him into thinking she's a DAA agent

[01:02:41] but she's really working with Travolta.

[01:02:42] Not to reveal the twist of Swordfish, but I'm about to.

[01:02:46] Swordfish has the same twist as Basic

[01:02:48] where Travolta at the end and Halle Berry are like

[01:02:50] we're part of a secret agency that does something.

[01:02:53] I'm actually kind of a good guy.

[01:02:54] Right?

[01:02:55] What do you do?

[01:02:56] Ah, don't worry about it.

[01:02:57] Goodbye.

[01:02:58] But like the direction there either from him

[01:03:02] or from the great Dominic Cena or whoever is like

[01:03:05] slimeball, give me slimeball.

[01:03:08] In this movie in Basic he has the scene where

[01:03:11] I'm watching the first 10 minutes of this performance

[01:03:13] I go what the fuck is Travolta doing?

[01:03:15] And then he says to Connie Nielsen

[01:03:17] I bet you didn't expect me to be a scumbag, huh?

[01:03:19] And I'm like that's what this is?

[01:03:22] Now here's the only thing,

[01:03:24] I think you don't like this performance.

[01:03:26] I don't.

[01:03:27] I think it's great.

[01:03:28] I think it's a good time.

[01:03:29] I already used my Ponyo joke about it.

[01:03:31] I love it.

[01:03:32] I'm having a really good time.

[01:03:33] But I don't feel like he is selling a guy

[01:03:37] who is charming the girl.

[01:03:39] No, no, he's charming me.

[01:03:40] He's charming the audience.

[01:03:42] I'm like wow, this is what you're doing.

[01:03:44] I'm definitely not like wow, women love this.

[01:03:47] Yeah, that's the only thing.

[01:03:48] I love everything he's doing in the movie.

[01:03:50] I just don't.

[01:03:52] I think it's in the wrong movie.

[01:03:54] No, I think the movie that they're making,

[01:03:56] this is it.

[01:03:57] I just don't.

[01:03:59] So I just watched Thomas Crown Affair again.

[01:04:02] And the first scene with Renee Russo

[01:04:04] and Pierce Brosnan is like I was levitating.

[01:04:08] They're bickering with each other

[01:04:10] and I'm like they clearly kind of like each other

[01:04:12] but they don't.

[01:04:13] I love, I love in any movie where a guy

[01:04:17] and a girl are like I don't like you.

[01:04:18] I don't like you either.

[01:04:19] I'm like but they're gonna.

[01:04:20] But there's never a second in this movie

[01:04:23] where he's kind of hitting on her

[01:04:25] where I'm like she's going to like it.

[01:04:27] No.

[01:04:28] All right, so who is,

[01:04:29] my argument for Travolta in this movie is,

[01:04:32] I'm trying to think of like.

[01:04:33] I have my argument.

[01:04:34] No, I want to hear yours too.

[01:04:36] So who's the boring guy who could play this role

[01:04:39] a little more straightforwardly in 2003?

[01:04:42] Forget del Toro because del Toro is that

[01:04:45] he's not boring, he's gonna do his own thing.

[01:04:48] I'm gonna tell you exactly who I think

[01:04:50] should have played this at the point

[01:04:51] where the script got too big

[01:04:52] and it had to be this level.

[01:04:54] Bruce.

[01:04:55] Wow.

[01:04:56] Okay, that's actually a great answer.

[01:04:57] Thank you.

[01:04:58] So.

[01:04:59] The moment we got to the scumbag line

[01:05:01] I went oh fuck,

[01:05:02] this character needs to be David Addison from Moonlight.

[01:05:05] Right, so but here's the thing about Bruce.

[01:05:07] Moonlighting, excuse me.

[01:05:09] No, he's in Moonlight as well.

[01:05:10] Right.

[01:05:11] He's in the background.

[01:05:12] You don't really see him much.

[01:05:13] He's the one light guy in Moonlight.

[01:05:14] Who's, what's Bruce Willis doing in 2003?

[01:05:18] Like what's a Willis film around then?

[01:05:20] Tears of the Sun.

[01:05:21] Wow, so memorable.

[01:05:22] This is what I'm saying, flip of the coin.

[01:05:24] Right, like Hearts War, Tears of the Sun, right.

[01:05:26] Yeah.

[01:05:27] It's not exactly glowing.

[01:05:28] I love Bruce Willis.

[01:05:30] You know I do.

[01:05:31] Yes.

[01:05:32] I do think he would play this

[01:05:34] straightforward, a little more straightforward, right?

[01:05:37] My pitch and part of why I'm pitching him

[01:05:40] is because it is McTiernan

[01:05:41] and I want to believe that their history would get it out of him, right?

[01:05:45] That like the early section of him going more David Addison than McClain

[01:05:50] of like I'm fucking look at me, I'm like charming everybody, this and shit.

[01:05:53] Right.

[01:05:54] Like I'm like that would be fucking Bruno, right?

[01:05:57] And then I believe that Bruce would sell at the end the like no, I'm like serious.

[01:06:03] I think there's a problem with the character as it stands in terms of the deception,

[01:06:08] which is I want this character to be like McClain and Die Hard with a Vengeance

[01:06:12] where he's hung over but has to do with it.

[01:06:14] Yes, yeah.

[01:06:15] But because this guy is lying the whole time

[01:06:18] and really playing everybody,

[01:06:20] it's like I don't want like the guy who's pretending he's not Kaiser Soze

[01:06:25] to also be pretending to be hung over

[01:06:27] and then you realize he's like lying the whole time.

[01:06:29] Like I think that this movie, I wish that the guy was just a hung over guy

[01:06:34] who's kind of sleazy who accidentally is like, oh my God, my friend did this.

[01:06:38] Oh, this thing is happening.

[01:06:39] I agree in 2003 you're getting to the era

[01:06:42] where you run the risk of Bruce being totally checked out, right?

[01:06:45] It goes either way.

[01:06:46] He's a little checked out in a lot of movies around this time

[01:06:50] and if you're getting checked out Bruce,

[01:06:52] then you're relying more on the structure and twists of this movie.

[01:06:56] Which I don't think would benefit them.

[01:06:57] Which I think would be bad.

[01:06:58] And I think Travolta just...

[01:06:59] I'm imagining the version where McClain and Cattle Potter.

[01:07:02] And then Knuckle Baller who doesn't even know what the strike zone is.

[01:07:05] Yes.

[01:07:06] Every pitch is interesting.

[01:07:07] None of them are strikes.

[01:07:08] You know what I mean?

[01:07:09] Like every...

[01:07:10] His approach to every scene, you're like,

[01:07:12] well I don't think that's the approach buddy,

[01:07:14] but I'm enjoying you trying this.

[01:07:16] I want to circle back too.

[01:07:17] I do think there's some weird transference thing that happens

[01:07:20] from him being given permission in 1997

[01:07:24] to pretend to be Nicolas Cage.

[01:07:26] An actor who could get away with shit that no one else could get away with.

[01:07:29] And sometimes would flop wildly, right?

[01:07:32] To booze and jeers from America.

[01:07:34] Sure.

[01:07:35] But like had that sort of like just electric insanity.

[01:07:38] I have a hot take though which is I think they should have switched parts.

[01:07:41] I think Sam Jackson should have been the lead

[01:07:43] and Travolta should have been the general.

[01:07:44] I think that's an incredibly good take.

[01:07:45] Here's the whole thing with basic.

[01:07:47] I think it just needs to be made ten times.

[01:07:49] Yes.

[01:07:50] I think we need to go back in 2003

[01:07:51] and be like you have the budget to make this film ten ways.

[01:07:53] One's gonna have Bruce,

[01:07:54] one you're gonna swap John and Sam,

[01:07:57] we'll have the del Toro Keener one,

[01:07:59] you're gonna lose ten mil from the budget.

[01:08:00] We're gonna try them all.

[01:08:02] There's a lot we can do with basic.

[01:08:04] And David I want to loop you into this.

[01:08:06] David and I recently had a very provocative text conversation

[01:08:09] when I had rewatched Changing Lanes

[01:08:12] and so badly wanted to on Revisico like this thing's quietly an eight.

[01:08:17] And I was like this thing remains a five with seven moments in qualities.

[01:08:21] I'm gonna give it a six with seven moments but sure.

[01:08:24] It's a jump in six.

[01:08:25] So does it have seven moments in the movie or moments that are rated seven?

[01:08:29] Moments that hit seven or eight.

[01:08:31] Okay.

[01:08:32] Even get to eight.

[01:08:33] It hits eight a couple times.

[01:08:34] I think it's a baseline six with flashes of eight.

[01:08:37] Right.

[01:08:38] Which makes it a little more frustrating that it's not an eight all the way.

[01:08:41] Right.

[01:08:42] Which is why I wanted to rewatch it and think discover in fact.

[01:08:46] And my take that we were kicking back and forth was like

[01:08:49] I wish Changing Lanes had been made in 1947

[01:08:53] and was a movie that was remade every 20 years with two different stars of the moment.

[01:08:58] Because if we were in an era where you're up to our six Changing Lanes

[01:09:02] one or two of them would be great.

[01:09:04] And we changed it.

[01:09:06] It should be like The Star is Born.

[01:09:07] Right.

[01:09:08] And we were like it's a shame we didn't get the fucking Sydney Poitier,

[01:09:12] Ernest Borgnine Changing Lanes.

[01:09:14] It's a shame we don't now today have.

[01:09:17] We had we had one.

[01:09:18] We really needed Changing Lanes that was actually directed by John Peters like.

[01:09:23] With Barbara.

[01:09:24] Yeah.

[01:09:25] And Diana Ross.

[01:09:26] Oh man.

[01:09:27] Yeah you had that one.

[01:09:29] Let's see.

[01:09:31] Who else?

[01:09:32] I feel like we had a couple others.

[01:09:34] But.

[01:09:36] Oh because there is.

[01:09:38] I said Pottier and Paul Newman.

[01:09:40] Right.

[01:09:41] Right.

[01:09:42] Jake I said.

[01:09:44] You said it would now be like Michael B. Jordan and Barry Kiyogen or something.

[01:09:48] Not terrible.

[01:09:49] Not terrible.

[01:09:50] Weiger pitched Gene Wilder and Yaffa Cotto.

[01:09:52] I mean come on.

[01:09:55] I think the listeners need to know that you have the Austin Powers collectible card game thing on your desk.

[01:10:00] The desktop display.

[01:10:01] I keep forgetting what I'm going to say when I see it.

[01:10:03] I'm like I want to play that.

[01:10:04] I can turn it the other way so it's not so strappy but also you can get some dupes on the way out.

[01:10:08] That's your door prize for doing the show.

[01:10:10] Okay.

[01:10:11] Travolta.

[01:10:12] Just to give you some dossier stuff on Travolta.

[01:10:15] He did train with the 75th Ranger Regiment.

[01:10:18] You can tell.

[01:10:19] Yeah he can really tell.

[01:10:20] There's a specificity and discipline to this performance.

[01:10:22] The guy just screams military.

[01:10:24] He says.

[01:10:25] Military scumbag.

[01:10:27] It's a pretty good quote from him.

[01:10:29] It was tough because I'm not a big fan of all that hard stuff like dieting and getting in shape.

[01:10:34] I was willing to do it.

[01:10:35] In fairness to myself I started three years ago for Swordfish but I also wanted to keep in shape for the kids.

[01:10:42] I'm going to move along in the quote here.

[01:10:44] I mean he's like introduced in this movie with a shirtless scene.

[01:10:47] He is.

[01:10:48] Look I would love to have Travolta's bod in this movie.

[01:10:53] I am not shaming his bod in this movie.

[01:10:55] Leading with his bod in this movie is an odd choice.

[01:10:59] Yes it's also odd to present it as I did the tough work and trained for three years for basic.

[01:11:05] I don't know how to comment on it because I can't.

[01:11:07] I wish I looked like him in this movie.

[01:11:09] He looks totally fine.

[01:11:11] But he's a few degrees off from how he thinks he's coming across to Connie Nielsen.

[01:11:17] When he's laying on the table and spreading himself out.

[01:11:20] It feels like he's like this is me and staying alive when it's you know.

[01:11:26] There is a swagger to this performance that yes suggests it's him and staying alive essentially wearing a loin cloth.

[01:11:32] When I'm like Travolta you look fine.

[01:11:34] You do not look like some kind of masculine apex which is the opposite.

[01:11:38] You look like a masculine apex which is how the character carries himself.

[01:11:41] But maybe that's good.

[01:11:43] That's why I keep coming around on Travolta where I'm like maybe the self inflation just works.

[01:11:48] Like that's what's good about Travolta.

[01:11:50] It's the same with Swordfish where he gives these ten minute monologues where you're like you have said zero thoughts during this entire monologue.

[01:11:57] But I guess that's what your character is.

[01:11:59] I think he's fun in Swordfish.

[01:12:00] I think in a movie like this.

[01:12:02] No he's not.

[01:12:03] Throwing fucking chili beans at me.

[01:12:06] What I like about Swordfish is that at the end of it he's cruising around the world on a speedboat with Halle Berry blowing up terrorists with just his slush money.

[01:12:14] The world's 20th soul patch.

[01:12:17] No but he did that to look like another terrorist whose body he found to fake his death.

[01:12:25] It's not clear if he found the guy's body or made a fake body.

[01:12:28] Or he styled the body to look like how he wants to look.

[01:12:31] Correct.

[01:12:32] It's never made clear.

[01:12:33] Sure.

[01:12:34] I think that's why Jackman just stumbled across a fake Travolta body and is like weird.

[01:12:38] Wonder what that's about anyway.

[01:12:40] Twist movies man.

[01:12:41] Can we throw in another counter point?

[01:12:43] I just think in Swordfish you're just like the fact that you're an idiot works for this.

[01:12:48] I don't.

[01:12:49] I don't know if you know that but I still am okay with it.

[01:12:53] I think it doesn't work for this reason.

[01:12:54] I think in a movie that is this based on twists.

[01:12:57] Twists.

[01:12:58] I'm thinking is John Travolta so wildly failing to convince me of what this character actually is supposed to be in this movie.

[01:13:06] Or should I not believe anything this guy is saying because clearly this is all a red herring misnomer.

[01:13:13] His whole persona is deflection.

[01:13:15] Because right.

[01:13:16] Because the way he behaves in this movie is stupid.

[01:13:18] But it actually works I think if he's a guy who murdered someone and who's getting away with it and he's cocky.

[01:13:23] He feels like somebody in a Clumbo episode who's like thinks they're going to get away with it.

[01:13:27] He's Shatner.

[01:13:28] But what you reveal at the end is like he's the general of Section 8 so he's a guy who's doing like 400 levels of deception and he's not behaving like a guy who is doing that.

[01:13:40] Thank you.

[01:13:41] There's nothing canny about this.

[01:13:42] Okay okay if we want okay you want to engage with the logic of this movie.

[01:13:45] I do.

[01:13:46] So let's assume from minute one Travolta is the head of Section 8.

[01:13:49] What does he want?

[01:13:50] He wants to get these guys out of here as quickly as possible.

[01:13:54] So it opens up and he's taking a shower because he's showering off the jungle from the thing he did that we're never very clear on.

[01:14:00] He was somehow involved in this exercise.

[01:14:02] But they basically realized that the wing.

[01:14:05] Showering off the jungle is a really good explanation of the kind of logic this movie operates on.

[01:14:10] Well the wings guy they suspect him.

[01:14:14] This is an episode of the Daily Show.

[01:14:15] So they suspect him of being that they need to prove that he's behind this drug thing to take him down.

[01:14:21] So they do the most elaborate thing anyone has ever done to do it.

[01:14:26] Rather than just being like hey we hear this guy shipping coke through the military maybe we should just check his shipments.

[01:14:32] Instead they're like let's stage a fake military exercise gone wrong.

[01:14:37] Sam Jackson fakes his death as an attempt to solve this.

[01:14:40] I got to say now like four hours in this podcast I'm here because McTiernan is one of my top five directors of all time and I like this movie.

[01:14:46] And I just want to feel like I've been hating on it a lot but we got to talk about how little sense it makes.

[01:14:51] We just got to.

[01:14:52] We have to engage with the fact that the stated premise of this film is that Samuel L Jackson is a well known decades in the you know he's been doing this for a long time drill sergeant who dies or disappears in a training incident.

[01:15:06] He's so mean that everyone who's under him.

[01:15:08] He's notorious.

[01:15:09] But we don't know if that's true or not because.

[01:15:11] Do you think it's all a lie like everything they're saying to Connie?

[01:15:14] They present as an early army style he breaks these kids underneath him to the point where they will shoot.

[01:15:19] Travolta says I trained under him when I was 15 years ago and I'm like what age are you supposed to be right now John?

[01:15:25] 15 years old.

[01:15:26] Did you enter the military age 40?

[01:15:28] Like what is this?

[01:15:29] But Sam's vibe in the last scene of the movie is so contradictory that's not a guy who traumatizes people.

[01:15:35] No he's a fucking maximum corona ass chiller who hangs out on the fucking French Quarter.

[01:15:42] But he's sitting around people.

[01:15:44] This is the argument for them switching roles.

[01:15:46] But he's sitting around a table with these people.

[01:15:48] That's what I'm saying it's like if Sam Jackson in that last scene brought that energy to the Travolta character and was that lead and then Travolta was hamming it up as this racist drill sergeant.

[01:15:59] And then at the end they're kind of charming each other.

[01:16:02] That inversion.

[01:16:04] That might be more sense.

[01:16:05] Right you want the Travolta character to have the sort of chaotic energy of like I can't get a read on this fucking guy.

[01:16:11] She sort of does.

[01:16:13] You guys are describing the performance in a way of like he's unhinged and big and it's kind of fun because you can't figure out.

[01:16:19] I'm like he's splayed out atop a table like fucking Michelle Pfeiffer and Fabulous Baker Boy is doing jazz hands and being like I bet you wanna fuck me.

[01:16:28] That's what I like.

[01:16:29] It's the same with him in taking a palom 1, 2, 3.

[01:16:34] The remake the Tony Scott remake of that movie.

[01:16:36] Yes.

[01:16:37] Where the Robert Shaw character that he's ostensibly playing right like in this remake in the original movie right is like cold as ice barely speaks like kills people without a twitch right.

[01:16:50] And Travolta is like fuck fuck fuck fuck you I'm on the phone like you're just like completely over the top.

[01:16:55] I think he's kind of fun in that movie.

[01:16:57] I agree.

[01:16:58] He's flooding the zone with bullshit and you're like I can't tell what's a choice and what's just idiocy.

[01:17:02] For this script that does I mean like of the attempted failed third wave Travolta comeback right which is the sort of late 2000s hairspray and wild hogs hit hard in the same year and everyone's like is he back again?

[01:17:18] And then he like triples down into the scumbag thing.

[01:17:22] Savages and Palom 1, 2, 3 were the two where people were like he's kind of fun.

[01:17:27] He's kind of bringing some energy.

[01:17:29] Okay so that Tony Scott is the king of making movies that I spent several years being like I love all of his movies except for these two and then I watched those two again I'm like they're so fucking good.

[01:17:38] So I watched Palom 1, 2, 3 where they played at New Bev as Denzel Marathon and when it started and they started playing the 99 problems I turned to my friend I was like this is like the only Tony movie I don't really want to I don't like this movie and by the end I'm like you know what actually Travolta is very good.

[01:17:51] He says motherfucker too many times but he's playing a cokehead Wall Street guy whose life gets taken away from him and is really angry so like it completely tracks narratively that that is who that guy is.

[01:18:04] There's a center to it.

[01:18:06] Yeah but this guy is like it's like there's scenes like before this movie started Brian Van Holt and Travolta like sat in a room and like rehearsed this like so when I'm sitting on the table you're going to ask me this and the first time you tell you the story but I'm going to do this so like she's like this so I'm going to try to be like trying to see if she's going to be like that.

[01:18:20] Trying to see if she's good at it because we might hire her later and then we're going to do this.

[01:18:23] I'm back to engaging in the logic of the movie.

[01:18:25] Is it Travolta's character is like okay we have done our live we're going to rumble Tim Daly.

[01:18:32] Sure.

[01:18:33] So we're going to do it by having a bit of back and forth with Rubisi who I don't like.

[01:18:37] Yes.

[01:18:38] And Brian Van Holt who's on my team.

[01:18:40] Who I love.

[01:18:41] Connie is irrelevant but she has to be there so we have to perform for her and this will end with us busting Tim Daly and then we'll get the fuck out of here.

[01:18:49] Sure.

[01:18:50] And then Connie Nielsen is so interesting pinning that like to him.

[01:18:55] Yes.

[01:18:56] That he suddenly is like let's also write like kind of throw some shit at her and see how she responds because she could be getting the eight ball if we like it right.

[01:19:04] Is that the plot of this.

[01:19:06] Yes but Giovanni Rubisi what did he witness in the woods in the jungle or whatever.

[01:19:12] No but think about it.

[01:19:13] He was contracted to kill them by Tim Daly because Tim Daly knew that they were on his tail right.

[01:19:19] Yes so which one of his stories is true where he found like Jackson dead or why did he think Jackson died.

[01:19:26] Like I want to know what he thought happened they kill him off so I don't have to deal with that logic but it's like Rubisi what does he before he dies what does he really think happened out in the jungle like who did he think Jackson was really dead.

[01:19:38] Did he see someone kill him.

[01:19:39] Who did he see kill him because he never tells his true story.

[01:19:43] No he doesn't.

[01:19:45] It's all made up right.

[01:19:46] Every story he tells us but he had to have died thinking that Sam Jackson was dead.

[01:19:52] See this whole conversation we're already in trouble this whole episode to me feels like the professor professors and episode of community where the joke is twists that start to stack up and he's written too many twists he's like I've lost control the narrative you guys are leading it.

[01:20:07] But why did you do this in front of anyone if what you actually were doing was this but if Sam Jackson trying to trick people into thinking you were tricking them.

[01:20:16] If it's a story where Sam Jackson is dead.

[01:20:19] You just don't know that Travolta was part of it.

[01:20:22] You can kind of stack these things up enough but if you need the ending to be that Sam Jackson is not dead.

[01:20:27] The level of complicated it needs to be for all of these things.

[01:20:31] It's just like I point you back to my incredible letterbox review now up to 25 likes basic more like complicated.

[01:20:39] Your computer is smoking right now from the amount of action that review is getting.

[01:20:44] And by the time it comes out this podcast comes out you'll have 26.

[01:20:47] 112 likes I just refresh.

[01:20:49] Good job buddy.

[01:20:50] It's a good it's a good it's a good gag.

[01:20:52] Thank you.

[01:20:54] David.

[01:20:55] What you mean the couch company.

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[01:23:03] Do it.

[01:23:04] Now Connie Nielsen I'm just going to say it.

[01:23:09] Yeah she's terrible in this movie.

[01:23:10] She is really poor.

[01:23:13] Fuck.

[01:23:14] Fuck.

[01:23:15] Let me see how many.

[01:23:18] Connie Nielsen is playing this role with relatively thick Danish accent.

[01:23:25] Yeah.

[01:23:26] I can understand everything she's saying.

[01:23:28] And at this point in her career she has been able to successfully drop the accent for entire films.

[01:23:33] What's going on there?

[01:23:35] They're trying to do the opening narration of To Kill a Mockingbird.

[01:23:39] That was the entire concept he had behind how she sounded which is why the opening thing is what it is.

[01:23:45] But in an ADR booth she can kind of pull it off.

[01:23:48] Right.

[01:23:49] But it's one of those weird things about accents which don't usually bother me.

[01:23:51] But it's like if you're performing and you're trying to focus on your accent and focus on give the best performance in the scene.

[01:23:57] It's like you're trying to juggle too many plates sometimes.

[01:23:59] And she's trying to like hold her weight against this guy who's going at 11 all the time.

[01:24:03] That is definitely helping.

[01:24:04] And she's trying to show that she's the kind of person who can see through his bullshit.

[01:24:08] And she's trying to sell the accent.

[01:24:10] And I think something's got to give at that point.

[01:24:12] She makes no sense in this movie.

[01:24:14] Obviously she's supposed to be kind of Demi Moore in Few Good Men.

[01:24:17] Right?

[01:24:18] It's sort of like yeah, I'm here to essentially be along for the ride but I start to figure things out.

[01:24:23] But it's bizarre casting.

[01:24:26] She just doesn't work.

[01:24:27] Connie Nielsen has such a bizarre career.

[01:24:29] I want to go off on this for a second.

[01:24:31] Demon Lover is awesome.

[01:24:32] She is a person where you're like on paper.

[01:24:34] So is she incredible?

[01:24:36] And I think at times she's been very good.

[01:24:39] But you basically go her first American film is The Devil's Advocate, right?

[01:24:44] Which she's doing what she's told in that one.

[01:24:47] Totally.

[01:24:48] She's serving weird, scary, you're a trash lady.

[01:24:51] Right.

[01:24:52] And then you're like one great scene in Rushmore.

[01:24:54] Soldier permanent midnight mission to Mars, Gladiator.

[01:24:58] Like suddenly you're like within three years she's in Gladiator.

[01:25:00] And she's the female lead of Gladiator.

[01:25:02] She's very good in it.

[01:25:03] She's good in Gladiator but I do think things like Mission to Mars, this to some extent.

[01:25:10] She's being handed the most boring role and it's like you're a lady with short hair who's one of the boys.

[01:25:15] You're kind of steely and mature.

[01:25:17] Right.

[01:25:18] You're sort of the cheaper Renee Russo without the comedy.

[01:25:21] I don't want to jump too far ahead but The Ice Harvest is fucking awesome.

[01:25:24] Love Ice Harvest.

[01:25:25] She's in The Ice Harvest.

[01:25:26] Love Ice Harvest.

[01:25:27] The Hunted.

[01:25:28] I love The Hunted.

[01:25:29] Yeah, the...

[01:25:30] You look at the resume and you disregard which films they are and you're like Brian De Palma, Ridley Scott, Asayas.

[01:25:39] Wes Anderson.

[01:25:40] Wes Anderson.

[01:25:42] Fucking Friedkin.

[01:25:44] And number one himself, king of the DGA, Taylor Hackford.

[01:25:48] Taylor Hackford.

[01:25:49] Ramus.

[01:25:50] But I think this actually goes down to like the macro of the movie which is that McTiernan needed a movie coming out of rollerball

[01:25:56] and he did an unbelievable job executing this movie but it's a movie that was kind of broken and he made it a little bit more broken by trying to solve problems he created.

[01:26:07] And this is not a movie where it's like, okay well we got the number one person that is exactly right for this character in every part.

[01:26:16] I think you sort of rely on the fact that like he's had a lot of movies that where they had to reshape the script and kind of get people you weren't expecting and make it all work.

[01:26:22] But this is a movie that needs to be way more precise because of how much deception is in the thing.

[01:26:28] This is my big take on McTiernan now as we're like finishing up this series, not finishing up this episode.

[01:26:33] We have four hours left but finishing up this series right?

[01:26:36] Yes.

[01:26:37] Because he's one of the greatest what the fuck happened cases in the history of Hollywood.

[01:26:42] It becomes more dramatic and Shakespearean because of the crime and the downfall and everything.

[01:26:47] But you're also just like how could a guy's instincts be that good and then get that wrong in a sort of general sense?

[01:26:53] I totally get this film strategically in his thought of his career as like, and this is why I was trying to dig into the timelines versus Rollerball David.

[01:27:03] Is it makes sense if he's like I have once again caught myself in a 13th warrior situation.

[01:27:09] I need to sign up for another movie now that is more of a like stripped down adult thriller with movie stars to remind people that I know what I'm fucking doing.

[01:27:19] And I'm not just like floundering in these hundred million dollar plus disasters.

[01:27:23] But I do think McTiernan also just has the energy of like, I can make this work.

[01:27:27] That's the other problem.

[01:27:29] He's made things work that should have been horrible.

[01:27:32] But this is my take.

[01:27:35] My take is if you're that guy and Nomads, let's just put that to the side.

[01:27:40] Right. I know you like it a lot more than we do.

[01:27:42] But the run of Die Hard, Predator, Die Hard, Crunchy Red October where you're like you read about the making of these movies and all the things that shouldn't have worked.

[01:27:52] And just he's like next level fucking chess skills in real time.

[01:27:57] Last minute cast changes, last minute location changes, whatever.

[01:28:00] All that shit.

[01:28:01] And the studio is being like, we don't know.

[01:28:03] We don't know.

[01:28:04] And he just fucking is so correct that if you're a guy like that and like three times in a row you come out so triumphant, you start to go, well, anytime anyone doubts me, they're wrong.

[01:28:15] I know the way a John McTiernan movie works.

[01:28:17] I have to push through on my instincts.

[01:28:20] But I also think he's it's like he's like we can't kill Samuel L. Jackson.

[01:28:23] That wouldn't make sense for that actor.

[01:28:25] And I'm say I'm James Vanderbilt.

[01:28:27] I'm like, well then maybe we shouldn't cast Samuel L. Jackson.

[01:28:29] He's like that's the hand we've been dealt.

[01:28:30] We're just going to fix it.

[01:28:31] But I can fix things.

[01:28:32] But I also think we're talking about instincts here.

[01:28:35] Right.

[01:28:36] The way he puts it in the dossier is like I loved the first half of the script.

[01:28:39] Second half didn't make sense for what we had.

[01:28:41] So I tried to make the second half like the first half.

[01:28:45] When he says that I'm like I understand that on paper as a concept.

[01:28:51] But I can't really work for this.

[01:28:52] I can fix things is once again I'm John McTiernan.

[01:28:54] When I'm backed into a corner with a gun to my head, I somehow deliver a masterpiece.

[01:28:58] Yeah.

[01:28:59] OK.

[01:29:00] I think that two things are true at the same time, which is I think that McTiernan for me he's like my top five guys.

[01:29:05] I think he's the best American action director.

[01:29:07] I think he's made several movies that no one else in the world could have made work like Predator is a miracle.

[01:29:13] Like Die Hard is a miracle.

[01:29:15] Hunter, Fred, October is a miracle.

[01:29:16] And as to be one of the best guys to ever do it and to be one of the only guys could ever make that work doesn't mean you're always the right guy for a movie.

[01:29:24] It doesn't also mean that every movie is malleable.

[01:29:27] I think that's one of the biggest mistakes that happens with movies is you can think that everything is malleable.

[01:29:32] It's like I want to have a ham sandwich, but what if I turn it into roast beef?

[01:29:36] And like if you've done that before, you think that can be done, but it can't always be done.

[01:29:42] This sounds like a completely stupid analogy, but it's like Die Hard 3 should not work because they took 45 pages of another script that is 98 percent that and then have a whole new movie on the end.

[01:29:51] And it mostly works until the last two minutes.

[01:29:53] I think that it's basically a perfect movie until the last 90 seconds.

[01:29:56] I agree.

[01:29:57] Now if you've come out of that situation alive, you go, well great, I know how to do stuff.

[01:30:03] Like you feel doubt disappearing in his system in real time where he's looking at things like this.

[01:30:11] He does not have doubt, but he's looking at something like this and he's like, yes, I understand what you're flagging to me as a thing I should maybe be worried about would worry most people.

[01:30:21] But I'm John McTiernan and I make shit work.

[01:30:23] And like you bring up the Travolta thing where you're like, maybe this isn't the right star or maybe if you hire Sam Jackson to play this guy, it's going to unbalance the movie.

[01:30:32] You could imagine his response being that's what they would have said about me having fucking Sean Connery play the Russian in Hunt for Red October.

[01:30:40] Something on paper where you're like, why are you casting a bigger star in the Jack Ryan movie who is notably a very different like has a very, very different cultural history than the culture.

[01:30:53] This whole movie is based around like all of that shit.

[01:30:57] And he's like, I fucking will this shit into happening.

[01:31:00] But Hunt for Red October to Medicine Man to me is the whole thing.

[01:31:03] It's like, how do you like he only made two movies that I like don't like and it's Rollerball and Medicine Man.

[01:31:09] And Medicine Man for me is just fundamentally like I've seen a million worse movies, but I think it's just a fundamentally broken movie.

[01:31:18] Like I'm like there's gonna be people listening to this are like fuck you.

[01:31:20] That's my favorite movie.

[01:31:22] I would worry about that too much.

[01:31:24] But Medicine Man for me just feels like it feels just so miscalibrated on every possible level.

[01:31:31] And that doesn't mean he's not a genius.

[01:31:33] But the thing, the travesty for me is just like I don't understand why besides the legal stuff, which is so annoying and stupid and Karl Rove's fault obviously, is that like I was watching the commentary of this.

[01:31:47] So it's basically like on mute.

[01:31:48] And when I have basic playing, I'm like this on mute is better executed than 99.9% of the movies from the last few years.

[01:31:57] So I don't understand why it's like, well, what if someone just gave him a movie of a script that worked and let him cook?

[01:32:04] Like what is going on here?

[01:32:06] Like why do we hire people who are not even sure if it can do the job who don't have a visual sense, who have no track record because he made Rollerball?

[01:32:14] It's like I just don't.

[01:32:15] It's like it's frustrating to me that he doesn't have way more times at bat because like everybody misses.

[01:32:22] Like I agree 100%.

[01:32:24] But all like the stuff that JJ dug up for Rollerball was so astounding and that all of the worst creative decisions in that movie started with him.

[01:32:32] There were a thousand.

[01:32:34] It's true.

[01:32:35] Like production nightmares and things he could not have anticipated and things that got away from him.

[01:32:39] But you read about what he inherited in the script when he came on the project and what his like first five notes were.

[01:32:47] And you're like those are the five quickest fundamental problems with this movie.

[01:32:51] And he just has this attitude.

[01:32:53] And you drop something right before we started recording, which I didn't know, which was that Keanu was supposed to do Rollerball.

[01:33:00] And his his sort of characterization for the type of guy he wanted in the lead role of that movie certainly makes a lot more sense if it's played by Keanu than it is played by Chris Klein.

[01:33:13] I'm not saying it would 100% work, but it's already him creating weird challenges for himself and being like, I just trust me.

[01:33:22] I got this.

[01:33:25] I think he falls victim to that.

[01:33:28] I got this syndrome a little bit.

[01:33:31] I also think he gets destroyed by an industry that has that syndrome.

[01:33:36] Yes, by being like now I would hire McTernan today.

[01:33:40] Yes, possibly right?

[01:33:41] Like for some mid budget kind of like metal sector at the door.

[01:33:45] Yeah.

[01:33:46] But now Hollywood's like, no, no, no, no, we're going to get this idiot.

[01:33:51] Well, that person's not even like they're like, yeah, but it works.

[01:33:53] We can control it like, you know, it's like it's the same syndrome as now.

[01:33:57] You now have movies that get shot basically two and a half times in total because the first director they hired doesn't know how to make the movie.

[01:34:04] They hire them to make or they didn't give him the freedom to do it.

[01:34:07] And they're like, just keep throwing shit at it.

[01:34:09] It's like the weirdest thing for me, which is just that I think that if you look at like the last 10 years and you look at like big expensive American tent poles like the only two movies that I think are better directed than last action hero or like Fury Road.

[01:34:22] And West Side Story, like I think in terms of the actual crap like last action hero.

[01:34:26] I don't even care if you don't like it.

[01:34:28] Yeah, the filmmaking in that movie, like the big gun sequence, like the way that he uses like zoom lenses while shooting action on the go, like panning from a car zooming into another one.

[01:34:38] The way that he executes it is God level in a movie that everyone is so fixated on all this other shit.

[01:34:45] I put fallout on that list and otherwise I basically agree with you that those are fallout.

[01:34:50] Do you see Tarantino saying West Side Story is like basically the best film of the 21st century?

[01:34:55] I have zero strikes against Steven Spielberg's craft in that movie.

[01:34:59] It's just to me it's like I did see that, David.

[01:35:03] I hope you feel really good and big and special.

[01:35:06] I do feel real special.

[01:35:08] Like there's like a scene when Travolta shows up to like scratch his balls and like a camera goes around Connie Nielsen and it swoops around him and like past him daily.

[01:35:17] And I'm sitting there being like, no one is doing this shit.

[01:35:21] And you're going around the guy from Wings to see like Travolta scratches balls and like it's so fucking beautifully executed.

[01:35:29] Tim Daly's not just from Wings. He was on Private Practice.

[01:35:32] He's from a lot of things.

[01:35:33] Was that show Eyes?

[01:35:34] I was a big Wings guy so my brain keeps just saying Wings.

[01:35:37] No, I think he is forever the guy from Wings.

[01:35:39] We do our bits on this show about when like Danny Houston or Stellan Sarsgaard get cast in something and you go like, huh, I wonder who the bad guy is going to be.

[01:35:47] Me?

[01:35:48] Tim Daly in Basic has the opposite problem where you're like, this guy is so straightforward.

[01:35:53] I don't know that this guy is serving criminal mastermind.

[01:35:56] It's Gary Sinise and Snake Eyes.

[01:35:58] It's like why is this guy in this except to reveal that he did it.

[01:36:01] He's not successfully playing criminal mastermind, but you're also like they wouldn't spend energy on this character and hire this guy if he wasn't supposed to actually be secretly more than we think he's supposed to be.

[01:36:13] It's so true.

[01:36:14] The same with-

[01:36:15] He's so bland and straightforward that he has to secretly be evil.

[01:36:18] Much less important, but when they go to the hospital in Harry Connick Jr.'s areas I was just like, oh, he's bad.

[01:36:25] This weird-

[01:36:26] Dude, when they let him sing.

[01:36:28] He does the same bit two times of just being like, who's the most non-threatening guy that your mom likes?

[01:36:34] This guy is going to be so fucking twisted.

[01:36:36] He's going to be a huge scumbag.

[01:36:38] Oh man, poor Harry Connick Jr.

[01:36:41] Already by 2003.

[01:36:42] It's like, do you want me to be the 14th guy in Basic?

[01:36:45] Scooby Dooby.

[01:36:46] But dude, when he is the guy who's like, well good thing I'm going with Dunbar to the thing or whatever.

[01:36:52] It's like if he didn't say that the movie doesn't work, that's the-

[01:36:56] Yes.

[01:36:57] Clockwork screenplay.

[01:36:58] Everything tight.

[01:36:59] I think we're getting something here.

[01:37:00] The McTiernan movies that feel airtight do not seem to have had airtight precision swish watch screenplays.

[01:37:11] They seem to have-

[01:37:12] No, never.

[01:37:13] Usually unfinished screenplays.

[01:37:14] Organically developed.

[01:37:15] The thing this guy was incredible at was juggling 80 balls at the same time and suddenly somehow keeping his eye on it.

[01:37:21] But a lot of that is vaguely improvisational.

[01:37:24] Here's a guy who works, seems to flourish under a certain sense of chaos or pressure or serving multiple masters and egos.

[01:37:33] You kind of get someone handing him a script like this and being like it has to be exactly like this.

[01:37:38] And he's like I'm going to wake up and do whatever the fuck I feel like I'm John McTiernan.

[01:37:41] No, we're not going to do that.

[01:37:42] We'll do this.

[01:37:43] And also good luck raining Travolta in.

[01:37:45] He's doing whatever he wants to do.

[01:37:48] I have to mention, the weird thing is like my director friends who are like people I know who make movies and we share our stuff.

[01:37:55] We are all like huge McTiernan guys.

[01:37:58] It's weird like my screenwriter friends all grew up on Stephen King and my director friends are all like obsessed with McTiernan.

[01:38:03] And a director friend of mine, Jacob Gentry had gone down the rabbit hole on some of this stuff and started sending me things when I said I was doing this.

[01:38:13] And his theory is something I agree after watching every interview that he's ever done is part of McTiernan not being as big as he doesn't self-mythologize in the way that everybody else does.

[01:38:26] It's like all of his peers whenever they're on the mic, they're like I am the greatest thing that has ever lived.

[01:38:32] I've saved everything.

[01:38:33] You cannot make any movie without me.

[01:38:35] I am God.

[01:38:36] And he's sort of like, you know, we were just in this thing and I kind of figured it out.

[01:38:39] And maybe I didn't.

[01:38:40] And in retirement, in his sort of forced retirement, he keeps doing retrospective interviews and commentaries.

[01:38:46] He's not hiding and his commentaries are really informative.

[01:38:49] But he's not kind of like self aggrandized.

[01:38:51] This was the job I was hired to do.

[01:38:52] And here's how I did it.

[01:38:53] And here's my honest assessment of what I think I got right and what I got wrong.

[01:38:57] Do you guys watch the new 13th Warrior documentary?

[01:38:59] Like there's an hour long one on YouTube that's from a few years ago.

[01:39:01] And at the end of it, he's like, look, there's a director's cut out there, but it may not be better.

[01:39:06] So I hope no one sees it.

[01:39:08] And you're just like, whoa.

[01:39:09] I think we did discuss that.

[01:39:10] Right.

[01:39:11] I've watched it since.

[01:39:12] He's not David Ayer being like, man, no, no, no.

[01:39:15] There's an amazing Suicide Squad if you just let me release it.

[01:39:18] His last action hero commentary is incredible for this reason.

[01:39:21] But like, who's...

[01:39:23] Fury Road is impressive because despite the way that like Charlize Theron and Tom Hardy talk about it,

[01:39:30] they also acknowledge we were not understanding what he had in his head, but it was figured out so perfectly.

[01:39:36] There was such a clear game plan that he was not able to really communicate, but somehow he got the pieces out of everybody.

[01:39:42] McTiernan's present day analog is Macquarie because it is the same thing of like,

[01:39:47] I want you to throw me out of an airplane and force me to like sew the parachute in real time.

[01:39:52] If he was a writer, I think that he could solve his own problem is really the issue.

[01:39:58] And he's a bad writer.

[01:39:59] I mean, I'm not one to say that, but...

[01:40:02] Okay, well, but it's not his inherent strength.

[01:40:05] They have, but they do have, I think they're a similar comp in terms of what they do.

[01:40:08] That's the thing about Macquarie.

[01:40:09] It's like he could be in movie jail and be like, all right, well, I'm just going to rewrite the shit out of so many Tom Cruise movies that I'm indispensable.

[01:40:17] Like that's...

[01:40:18] And even if he had a falling out with Cruise, he could do the same for anyone else.

[01:40:21] Like, Macquarie is never going to actually totally be in Siberia.

[01:40:25] And when he talks about his Siberia period for 10 years, it was doing that.

[01:40:29] It was getting paid a lot of money to rewrite shit with no credit.

[01:40:34] And basically, like you say, becoming valuable is like, well, this guy knows how to fix a movie.

[01:40:42] Can we...

[01:40:43] Okay, look.

[01:40:45] The plot of basic...

[01:40:46] I know we don't really need to do this.

[01:40:48] The problem I love when we do on these episodes and you guys go through everything in order, but the promise that the middle section, the middle section is kind of impossible to do.

[01:40:57] Look, there's the live fire exercise that goes wrong.

[01:41:00] Brian Van Holt's in one room.

[01:41:02] He shot someone.

[01:41:04] Johnny Robes is in the hospital.

[01:41:06] Brian Van Holt was like carrying him.

[01:41:08] Everyone else is gone.

[01:41:09] We don't know where they went.

[01:41:10] That includes Taye Diggs.

[01:41:12] Where'd he go?

[01:41:13] Dash Mihawk.

[01:41:14] Definitely not going to play like a weird racist, right?

[01:41:17] Dash Mihawk played so many like, Lunkhead like idiots, like in movies around this time.

[01:41:22] He's a good actor.

[01:41:23] Good actor, but yes, he got stuck a little bit.

[01:41:25] Got really button-holed.

[01:41:26] Christian De La Fuente and Rosalyn Sanchez.

[01:41:30] These guys are all gone and Samuel Jackson is gone.

[01:41:32] What happened to them?

[01:41:33] John Travolta, who is not in the military anymore, is now a quote unquote D.A. agent.

[01:41:39] But this is like a term...

[01:41:40] But he's friends with the guy from Wings.

[01:41:42] He only wants to speak to ex-military.

[01:41:45] Correct.

[01:41:46] So just to say the script takes place in Louisiana and he was just a cop, but otherwise everything is the same so far.

[01:41:51] He is brought in by the guy from Wings, Tim Daly himself.

[01:41:55] The most normal man.

[01:41:56] Eyes on ABC, it was about four episodes before it got canceled.

[01:42:00] I watched every single one.

[01:42:01] This is an episode of the Daily Show.

[01:42:03] Yes it is.

[01:42:04] A once every five years version of Blank Check where we check in on one of the Daily...

[01:42:08] Incredible performance in that one episode of the Sopranos.

[01:42:11] Tyne dropped out of proof, not proof, of doubt because she was having health problems and apparently she's stable.

[01:42:16] It's a bummer she's not back on Broadway.

[01:42:18] Oh yeah, I know because like what Tyne Daly definitely needs is more awards.

[01:42:22] She has too many awards.

[01:42:23] She has too many awards.

[01:42:24] Well also you love...

[01:42:25] I love doubt.

[01:42:27] I have no doubt about my love for doubt.

[01:42:29] No, I don't need more doubt.

[01:42:32] So basically the plot of the middle, most of this movie is Travolta goes to Brian Van Hulp.

[01:42:40] Brian Van Hulp's like here's what happened.

[01:42:42] Travolta's take is great, round him up.

[01:42:45] Like let's arrest this guy.

[01:42:46] I'm done.

[01:42:47] Then he goes to see Ruvis.

[01:42:48] Ruvis is like that's not what happened.

[01:42:50] A completely different thing happened.

[01:42:52] Every story they are being told relies on total conjecture.

[01:42:56] Suggestions from sort of like group conspiracy.

[01:43:01] Like let's get these guys by banding together.

[01:43:04] There are no bodies, there's no evidence.

[01:43:07] Travolta is the worst cop in the world.

[01:43:09] He's always just like oh he said Brian Van Hulp did it.

[01:43:11] You should arrest him.

[01:43:12] Every account he's hearing is a different person saying here's what I think I saw.

[01:43:17] And it's literally here's what I think I saw and I think that guy didn't like that guy.

[01:43:21] Why?

[01:43:22] I don't know because he's gay, because he's racist.

[01:43:25] Totally speculative stuff.

[01:43:27] I don't know who's accounting to believe because they're all in conflict with each other.

[01:43:33] It's like every account is also based on wild swings.

[01:43:37] Like one is Samuel L. Jackson got blown up by a grenade.

[01:43:40] Another is like Samuel L. Jackson like jumped on the roof and shot us with pistols going like fuck you bitch.

[01:43:45] They are completely, it's not like Rosh Amon where it's like we know this guy got shot.

[01:43:50] And let's figure this out. It's completely different things every time.

[01:43:54] But it's like Usual Suspects if Chaz Palminteri was Kaiser Soze and he was interviewing three different people who keep contradicting each other going from room to room.

[01:44:02] And Usual Suspects was also like combined with Reservoir Dogs where the inciting, like the crime that's being dissected was mostly in one warehouse.

[01:44:10] Because every time they cut back to a different account you're like it's all still in the same hut.

[01:44:15] And also if Chaz Palminteri at the end of every story that he was told was like fine arrest this guy and there was a lady next to him was like don't you want to ask more questions?

[01:44:23] Something about this doesn't make sense.

[01:44:27] But what if no one said don't arrest that guy and then he's like oh fuck I've made all this up what am I supposed to do now?

[01:44:36] I suppose that is there are scenes that don't make sense.

[01:44:42] Such as Giovanni Rubisi in giving an A tier terrible performance just like all business no character.

[01:44:51] Putting the lotion in the basket.

[01:44:53] Yes.

[01:44:54] After they go to interrogate him for like the 14th time where they're like can you clear some stuff up for us? Tell us a new story for example.

[01:45:03] Throws up eight buckets of blood and then draws an eight on a piece of paper in blood and dies.

[01:45:10] Draws an eight on her hand in his vomit blood after I am not exaggerating here doing full like drag me to hell vomiting.

[01:45:19] Yes.

[01:45:20] Like the most absurd Ramey-esque there is no way that comes out of this person's body let alone spontaneously.

[01:45:26] Why would he know about section eight?

[01:45:29] I don't know.

[01:45:30] Okay great great you don't have an answer.

[01:45:31] I agree.

[01:45:32] I'm not even mad I'm just genuinely wondering.

[01:45:34] Then there's another sequence where Travolta holds Brian Van Holt near an airplane propeller that is spinning and yells at him but we can't hear what he's saying.

[01:45:45] I assume at that point some instructions are being delivered right?

[01:45:50] Presumably.

[01:45:51] They're like going like anyway we almost got it.

[01:45:53] You're totally selling this.

[01:45:55] You know that bar in New Orleans let's go there.

[01:45:59] But like we never revisit that.

[01:46:01] No.

[01:46:02] No okay great I'm just trying to make sure I didn't miss anything.

[01:46:04] But this is why I bring up the professor for I mean I just finally finished my 30 Rock rewatch right?

[01:46:10] So you're going to do Community?

[01:46:12] Yeah no I did Community during the pandemic I don't know what the next one is but there's the episodes where Baldwin is feuding with Chloe Grace Moretz are similar to basic where there's this who's zooming who you think you're watching one person getting the upper hand

[01:46:27] but it's actually the whole time that's what they wanted whatever and there's one where they think they've defeated Baldwin and then he goes like that's one way it could have played out and then he reviews every scene and shows that actually he was on top of it.

[01:46:41] And then there's part of it is he slips two pieces of paper and makes Will Arnett send the wrong one and Will Arnett says like why did you make me send it?

[01:46:50] That's just unnecessary.

[01:46:52] That's just mean.

[01:46:53] So you're saying that's what basic is doing over and over again?

[01:46:56] Right.

[01:46:57] Why would you have to do that in front of that person?

[01:46:59] Why would you even need to sell that part of it?

[01:47:02] That's unimportant.

[01:47:03] That's just mean to Connie Nielsen.

[01:47:05] I need everyone to know that I just went down the most insane rabbit hole ever and I'm going to do it in 20 seconds.

[01:47:10] Is that I was trying to remember so Dash Mihawk when I first moved to LA in like 2005 I knew him because I went to a friends and family screening of this movie called Loveless in Los Angeles which is like a very underseen movie with him and Brittany Daniel where the guy came out and he introduced it by saying

[01:47:25] you know I've been an editor on like Blind Date and Fifth Wheel and all these things and I really come to LA to direct a movie so I decided fuck it I got to do it.

[01:47:33] So we made a movie about a guy who was like an editor on like Blind Date and like Fifth Wheel.

[01:47:38] Love movies like this.

[01:47:39] Who decided to make a movie.

[01:47:40] Especially when they're set in Los Angeles.

[01:47:42] Well I remember watching just being like but this is a movie about you the fact that you should have made a movie and I was like what happened to that guy?

[01:47:49] And I found out that like he is now the executive producer on every like Mark Wahlberg reality show.

[01:47:54] Like Wall Street and like Wall Burgers.

[01:47:57] He's an Emmy nominee.

[01:47:59] I hadn't looked up the thought of this guy in 20 years and I was like the Dash Mihawk guy made good.

[01:48:03] He is now the Mark Wahlberg producer for all of his reality shows.

[01:48:06] Yeah he worked on Wall Street.

[01:48:07] That's a pretty good encapsulation of the way the film industry tends to shake it out.

[01:48:10] But it's like for me Dash Mihawk was always like the surrogate of the Blind Date, Fifth Wheel guy in the fake Annie Hall movie.

[01:48:18] He is, I mean I love him in Romeo and Juliet.

[01:48:21] He's good in Thin Red Line and stuff like but he's you know he's a type.

[01:48:24] Kiss Kiss Bang Bang.

[01:48:25] He has like a very good 30 seconds.

[01:48:27] I am a legend where he is CGI'd over.

[01:48:29] But is the main vampire.

[01:48:31] He sure is.

[01:48:32] Really?

[01:48:33] He was very committed in that movie.

[01:48:34] He was the physical, I mean he was doing it all with practical and then he still is the guy.

[01:48:38] Yeah.

[01:48:39] Anyway all of this is irrelevant.

[01:48:42] John Travolta catches Tim Daly in a lie.

[01:48:45] Like John Travolta goes to see Tim Daly.

[01:48:47] And he's like anyway I wrapped it up.

[01:48:48] No you didn't.

[01:48:49] And is like yeah so you know I mean it was probably about like this drug thing and Tim Daly is like anyone doing a drug thing with a poison G-Van or BC.

[01:48:57] Like and you're like great now we just fucking caught him.

[01:49:00] Like you know like great.

[01:49:01] He just admitted to it.

[01:49:04] And so Travolta is like okay you know they are doing this cutesy caddy back and forth.

[01:49:11] And before Tim Daly shoots Travolta, Connie Nielsen shoots Tim Daly.

[01:49:16] That's the I guess the mental game he's been running.

[01:49:20] Is that like the intention of all this K-Fabe is like I'm going to make her shoot him?

[01:49:26] When I was watching that scene on mute when I was listening to commentary it was so good.

[01:49:30] Yeah what is said in the commentary?

[01:49:33] No I'm saying like I'm just saying the thing about the commentary I realized because he doesn't talk a lot in it is like I just wasn't hearing the movie and I was like on mute this movie is fucking awesome.

[01:49:41] Sure.

[01:49:42] And then when I was watching that scene I'm like this is like film noir and it's like this thunder and lightning.

[01:49:46] And then when she's revealed behind the glass it's a lot like when original Bill Johnson like it's the same camera move as when he shoots the guy at the end of Die Hard.

[01:49:54] And I was like this feels like the best movie.

[01:49:56] Yeah you're right.

[01:49:57] But what's happening in the movie is like Travolta just keeps kind of laughing a little bit too long while he's like telling him the thing and then they both start laughing.

[01:50:04] Yes they do for like a while.

[01:50:06] And then it turns and he's like what if I give you all the money?

[01:50:08] And he's like oh so you did do it.

[01:50:11] Even just the rain is such a McTiernan thing where you're like who else would choose to make it that much more complicated for themselves in the name of an overriding atmosphere to the movie.

[01:50:23] I guess I'm supposed to believe that he's like if Nielsen shoots Tim Daly because Tim Daly drew a gun this is open and shut and I can just be vapor in the wind right and just like no one ever knew I was here right?

[01:50:35] But do you think that he thinks Nielsen is going to shoot Tim Daly?

[01:50:39] No because that would be insane to think that.

[01:50:42] But maybe he does.

[01:50:43] We're getting into like the Saltburn thing of like how much of it was intentional or how much wasn't or were you improvising as you went along?

[01:50:50] Yes.

[01:50:51] It's unfortunate now I'm never going to see a movie again as long as I live that doesn't have like a series of like flashbacks to what actually happened and not think of like the money in the wallet from Saltburn.

[01:51:01] It's like even now when I'm watching this and this is a movie I always love this I don't care if it's Sixth Sense.

[01:51:05] Well that's the best version of it you're describing.

[01:51:08] I love being like oh that actually happened oh my god oh my god this is I love editing this is such a cool shot.

[01:51:13] This is my whole fucking problem with Saltburn that I keep talking around is just like that movie.

[01:51:17] Did you know that he actually put a hole in the tire and that's why he did it?

[01:51:21] That it shows you this scene as if you're going to be fucking shocked.

[01:51:24] Wait what Barry Keoghan was not on the level in this movie?

[01:51:28] And I'm not patting myself on the back going I was ahead of the twist I'm going I didn't think that was supposed to be a twist.

[01:51:35] If that was not telegraphed then what the fuck have I been watching?

[01:51:40] What if Saltburn had the incredible twist of like now this is actually a good nice guy and these were all a bunch of weird accidents.

[01:51:45] That would have torn my mind.

[01:51:46] Exactly.

[01:51:47] So when the first murder happened.

[01:51:48] The ending is structured as if the reveal is every time Barry Keoghan did something creepy he then immediately left a room and a random person broke in and killed somebody.

[01:51:55] I have like an in real time nervous breakdown.

[01:51:58] It's the OJ thing over here.

[01:51:59] Yes.

[01:52:01] Saltburn should be if I did it.

[01:52:03] He's like when the first murder happened in Saltburn and they didn't show him do it I turned to my girlfriend and said why didn't they show him kill him like a beat passes and I go oh my god do they think it's a twist?

[01:52:15] And then I like a beat passes and I'm like oh no.

[01:52:17] See I feel like a moron.

[01:52:19] I actually was sitting there going I'm going to give Emerald panel a little credit for not feeling the need to show me.

[01:52:26] I guess that is a weird flex of directorial restraint on her part.

[01:52:30] She felt the need already.

[01:52:31] Every time they didn't show me a crime I was like okay she's got a little she's holding back.

[01:52:36] So.

[01:52:38] So.

[01:52:39] I was astonished by the twist of that movie thinking it's a twist movie.

[01:52:43] That was the greatest twist I've seen.

[01:52:44] But the point I brought it up is not just to unnecessarily say something bad.

[01:52:48] Sorry for ruining Saltburn for everyone fucking nine months after it comes out.

[01:52:51] I know and I'm just a gigantic hater.

[01:52:53] It's just that there's that thing where it's like was everything planned or was it half planned?

[01:52:58] Yes.

[01:52:59] And it's like the more you show the more questions I have which is like okay so then why did they do that?

[01:53:04] Did they what did they expect to happen at this point?

[01:53:06] Once you start saying this meant something this meant something this meant something.

[01:53:09] Then I'm like did it all or were they improvising some of it?

[01:53:13] Yes because in the best versions of these types of movies at the end when Travolta fucking lays out what was really going on the whole time he is like now what I was planning to do was to do this and then you shot him which freaked me out.

[01:53:26] But then I realized this gives me an opportunity.

[01:53:28] No.

[01:53:29] The way in which Connie Nielsen shoots him also the fact that she is on the other side of a closed door.

[01:53:33] She shoots him through a window.

[01:53:34] Through a window and he's like why do you shoot him?

[01:53:37] And she's like I saw him like doing shit with his hands.

[01:53:42] But Thomas Crown has the magic version of this when they don't see how he took that other painting.

[01:53:48] And you never need to know.

[01:53:49] No you don't need to know.

[01:53:50] It's incredible.

[01:53:51] They stick to know what you need to see and when you don't.

[01:53:53] It's what he at his best is incredible at.

[01:53:56] But by trying to set up the new ending with Sam Jackson not being dead you kind of end up in a very murky situation of you need to set up this or let him know at least this was this and I don't really even know what the right answer is.

[01:54:09] There's no fix that I know of.

[01:54:10] No.

[01:54:11] Until the last 10 minutes I'm watching it going the ultimate twist of this has to be that Connie Nielsen is if not in on it is running her own thing.

[01:54:19] That Connie Nielsen is not who she says she is and that she's actually the one who's quietly been manipulating circumstances.

[01:54:26] Because to do all of this basically just for her seems insane.

[01:54:31] Okay so I want to address what Ben just texted Griffin and I in one second but first yes the final twist of this film is.

[01:54:39] They are all in section 8 Sam Jackson is alive Taye Diggs is here you know everyone's back.

[01:54:44] They are an elite bunch of undercover.

[01:54:47] He's dead.

[01:54:48] He's dead.

[01:54:49] Rubisi and Mihawk didn't make it.

[01:54:51] It would have been incredible if Rubisi was there at the last.

[01:54:53] He showed up covered in his fake blood.

[01:54:56] He's got like the Andrew WK like the blood all down.

[01:54:59] Full of the game ending.

[01:55:01] And he's like hey guys like he has a new voice.

[01:55:04] James Rebhorn should be there at the end wearing a little party hat.

[01:55:07] He should be there with a party hat.

[01:55:09] So yeah they're an elite anti-drug unit within the military.

[01:55:15] They're actually the coolest best guys.

[01:55:17] Travolta being like a somewhat corrupt DA agent is the total cover story for the fact that he's in fact like Colonel of Awesomeness.

[01:55:24] They all hit the gym every day and does Connie Nielsen want a job?

[01:55:29] They also kind of need her because they are pretty much all pretend dead at this point so they're going to need like a living person.

[01:55:36] Do they fuck?

[01:55:38] John Travolta and Connie.

[01:55:40] Never.

[01:55:41] Five minutes after the movie is over.

[01:55:43] The movie thinks yes.

[01:55:44] I think no.

[01:55:46] No.

[01:55:47] Absolutely not.

[01:55:48] Because it's not clear.

[01:55:49] Here's what I think happens the moment after the movie ends.

[01:55:52] Okay?

[01:55:53] If the camera were to stay rolling for another five seconds I think the final line of the movie would be Connie Nielsen saying wait you're gay right?

[01:56:02] And there's one more twist.

[01:56:04] That's been my read on this whole dynamic.

[01:56:06] Just to be super clear.

[01:56:09] Now we never addressed my letterbox review of this movie was.

[01:56:12] I'm talking about the characters in the film.

[01:56:15] It was, oh we should also address there's this insane part.

[01:56:19] A lot of hand signals happening here.

[01:56:21] Like full arm traffic signals telling me to stop talking.

[01:56:26] What were you going to say?

[01:56:27] I forgot about the part where Brian Van Holt says he doesn't like baseball or whatever.

[01:56:31] There's a lot of clever fun back and forth that is then kind of sent into the dimension of insanity by Travolta just making every line reading bizarre.

[01:56:42] My letterbox review was ah the early 2000s joy of Travolta being caddy for 105 minutes.

[01:56:48] Which is how I feel about that performance.

[01:56:50] And I think caddy is the wrong choice for this character.

[01:56:52] But it's the choice.

[01:56:54] He has made.

[01:56:55] Nonetheless.

[01:56:56] My letterbox review which no one cares about was me complaining about the end credits song.

[01:57:00] Which drives me insane.

[01:57:01] Because it should have just been Bolero.

[01:57:03] Like they start playing.

[01:57:04] Is it Bolero?

[01:57:05] Is that what the piece of music is from the opening scene?

[01:57:08] They should just kept playing it.

[01:57:09] That's the vibe he's aiming for.

[01:57:10] Which is very McTiernan.

[01:57:11] He loves a classical.

[01:57:12] And instead they're like whoa bad cover blah blah blah.

[01:57:16] Ben sent us his review.

[01:57:19] Okay let me just look at Ben's review here.

[01:57:21] You haven't seen it?

[01:57:22] I'm working on my ranked list here now.

[01:57:23] I'm just organizing my ranked list.

[01:57:25] Okay.

[01:57:26] I just I love the formality of Ben Hosley.

[01:57:29] My two star review of Basic on Letterboxd.

[01:57:31] Link below.

[01:57:33] Click the link.

[01:57:35] There you go.

[01:57:37] Ben do you want to read it out?

[01:57:39] I'd like for you to read it please.

[01:57:40] You're finally capturing the magic of listening to this podcast at home.

[01:57:42] I'm like what are you guys what's happening?

[01:57:44] I know right?

[01:57:45] You're getting to see it in real time.

[01:57:48] What is this long ass episode of Jag?

[01:57:51] There you go.

[01:57:52] Find us film critic.

[01:57:53] And then immediately comment underneath our finest film critic.

[01:57:56] If Jag looked like a McTiernan movie I would watch all 10,000 episodes on repeat.

[01:58:01] Yeah.

[01:58:02] I mean this is the problem with McTiernan is you watch something like this which I clearly like a lot less than you guys and I'm still like we didn't know how good we had it.

[01:58:10] But this is like a bad episode of Columbo directed by God.

[01:58:13] That is a great take.

[01:58:15] But it's God after he's become God.

[01:58:17] Like it's not watching a Spielberg Columbo where you're like oh shit this guy's got the magic.

[01:58:21] It's veteran God.

[01:58:22] Yeah for sure.

[01:58:23] Did you like Basic Ben?

[01:58:24] Well apparently you thought it was like a long episode of Jag.

[01:58:26] Yeah.

[01:58:27] His favorite thing in the world.

[01:58:29] He's always complaining that Jag episodes are too short.

[01:58:31] No I didn't hate it but I just struggled to get through it.

[01:58:35] The little bit.

[01:58:36] That's sort of a sign of not liking it.

[01:58:38] I mean it's right.

[01:58:39] It's no Joe Dirt.

[01:58:40] It's more of a Joe Dirt 2.

[01:58:42] American Loser?

[01:58:43] This was a Crackle original.

[01:58:45] It was.

[01:58:46] Let's play the box office game before we do our McTiernan.

[01:58:50] Let's play the box office game before we do our McTiernan rankings Griffin.

[01:58:53] I just want to say like when we had Julie Klausner on for Star 80, a movie I like a lot more than she does.

[01:59:00] But a very difficult thorny movie right?

[01:59:03] And her take as someone who loves Bob Fosse is just like don't you just find it really disappointing that this is the last thing we ever got from this guy.

[01:59:09] Like isn't this such a horrible note to end on?

[01:59:11] Sure.

[01:59:12] And I do not think that Basic is a noxious film in any way.

[01:59:15] And we've talked about like everything that happens after this movie.

[01:59:19] But it's just such a bummer to be like this is his last film.

[01:59:23] Oh see I disagree.

[01:59:24] And I do think I judge it harsher for that reason.

[01:59:26] I'm the opposite.

[01:59:27] I think I've seen a lot of last movies and this one is like perfectly fine.

[01:59:31] It doesn't really work.

[01:59:32] It's like there's way worse ones from like people who like I love.

[01:59:36] Imagine if Rollerball was the last one.

[01:59:38] Yes.

[01:59:39] We're doing okay.

[01:59:40] I agree.

[01:59:41] I'm not saying it's one of the worst last films ever.

[01:59:43] If he made this film and then six months later had a heart attack would be like what a tragic story.

[01:59:48] And it sucks that you're like 21 years later he's still alive and not making movies and his last thing is Basic.

[01:59:54] That part of it blows.

[01:59:55] It's insane that his last movie is 2003.

[01:59:57] That's my real thing.

[01:59:58] Good or bad, it's insane that this is his last movie.

[02:00:01] Yes.

[02:00:02] That is the part that depresses me.

[02:00:03] The bummer is Carpenters.

[02:00:05] Yeah Carpenters are one of the worst films to end on.

[02:00:09] But if McTiernan was on record saying I'm high watching Lakers games and playing video games I'd be like I don't need more man.

[02:00:15] Carpenter at least has the line of I can't be bothered I don't care enough anymore and I'm like you know what actually if you're happy that's more important to me versus McTiernan you know is not happy.

[02:00:25] If McTiernan was stoned watching Lakers games and playing Dead Space I'd be like you know what I can just keep watching Last Action Hero.

[02:00:31] I'm glad this guy figured it out.

[02:00:33] March 28 2003.

[02:00:35] Okay.

[02:00:36] There are three new films in the top five.

[02:00:38] Wow.

[02:00:39] They're basically all making the same amount of money.

[02:00:41] This is a box office game where the movies are 13 12 12 11 are the numbers.

[02:00:46] So it's just kind of like a classic beginning of the year box office of like a bunch of under performers at the same time.

[02:00:53] Okay.

[02:00:54] Right.

[02:00:55] So the Basic is opening at number four which is not great.

[02:01:00] I would say not great.

[02:01:01] To eleven million dollars.

[02:01:03] It's going to like that all the way out to 26 which is not good.

[02:01:08] I make 42 worldwide on a 50 budget.

[02:01:11] Okay.

[02:01:13] Ben David is cracking a white claw.

[02:01:15] Number one of the box office is New This Week Griffin.

[02:01:19] It is a comedy.

[02:01:20] Okay.

[02:01:21] Starring a major comedy star.

[02:01:24] One of my guys?

[02:01:25] Not really.

[02:01:26] Not sure.

[02:01:27] He you know he was a huge deal.

[02:01:29] He wrote directed and stars.

[02:01:32] Oh it's Head of State.

[02:01:34] Head of State.

[02:01:35] Yeah.

[02:01:36] I think the best Chris Rock directed movie.

[02:01:41] Yes.

[02:01:42] That's not a great.

[02:01:43] It's not.

[02:01:44] Bernie Mac is so good.

[02:01:45] Bernie Mac is really great.

[02:01:46] Bernie Mac is awesome in it.

[02:01:47] There are a couple things that are great.

[02:01:48] Nate Dogg is great in it.

[02:01:50] Yes.

[02:01:51] Here's a story about a man.

[02:01:52] I'm Sharon Stone's cousin.

[02:01:53] Wanted to be head of state.

[02:01:54] I used to head of state.

[02:01:56] I used to do this bit with my friends all the time.

[02:01:58] Nate Dogg narrates that film as an omniscient rapping narrator.

[02:02:02] A rapping a lot to the watcher if you will.

[02:02:04] And every time they cut to him it's a little like they're trying to do Jonathan Richmond in something about Mary.

[02:02:10] Right.

[02:02:11] But it's just him going here's a story about a man.

[02:02:13] He does it again.

[02:02:14] Then he moved to Washington trying to be the head of state.

[02:02:17] He'll be the head of state.

[02:02:19] When his rival keeps saying and I'm Sharon Stone's cousin.

[02:02:23] That sums up so many big directors in Hollywood.

[02:02:25] This is true.

[02:02:26] That every time I think of that line whenever I find out like someone was like Katie Couric's nephew or something.

[02:02:31] When I find out they're like got a movie.

[02:02:33] I was a dash me hoax body man.

[02:02:36] Number two the box office.

[02:02:38] Oh.

[02:02:39] It's comedy.

[02:02:40] It's a huge hit.

[02:02:41] It's in its fourth weekend.

[02:02:43] It's finally been dethroned.

[02:02:45] By and it's bringing down the house.

[02:02:48] The house has been brought down.

[02:02:50] The house has been brought down.

[02:02:51] The house has been brought down.

[02:02:52] It's made 100 million dollars.

[02:02:54] The government has intervened.

[02:02:55] We must reconstruct the house.

[02:02:57] Bring down the house.

[02:03:00] Bring it on the house.

[02:03:01] Stephen Queen.

[02:03:02] A movie.

[02:03:03] Steve McQueen.

[02:03:04] Stephen Queen.

[02:03:05] Steve Martin and Queen.

[02:03:07] Oh Stephen Queen.

[02:03:08] Stephen Queen.

[02:03:09] Stephen Queen.

[02:03:10] I'd say I'd say Martin and Latifah is what I would say.

[02:03:12] Yeah but I thought it'd be funny if I said Stephen Queen.

[02:03:15] Because no one has ever said that before.

[02:03:17] David you're right.

[02:03:18] It's funny.

[02:03:19] And I give you 10 comedy points.

[02:03:20] I think number three at the box office is new this week.

[02:03:23] It's a disaster film.

[02:03:25] Okay.

[02:03:26] It's opening to number three so it's not doing great.

[02:03:29] It's not at the core is it?

[02:03:30] It sure is.

[02:03:31] Which, fucks all night.

[02:03:34] Not bad right?

[02:03:35] All day and all night.

[02:03:36] Core is one of those movies that came out people were like no.

[02:03:40] And then just like 10 years later people started being like well we all agree the core is good.

[02:03:43] And I was just like can you invite me to some of these meetings?

[02:03:46] I'll watch it now but like you just got to keep me updated.

[02:03:49] I talked about this in a past episode but I watched the core with someone I was dating who was like you've never seen the core?

[02:03:54] And I was like what's this energy of you've never seen the core as if the core is canon.

[02:04:00] You're not even a film person.

[02:04:01] I'm not mad that you like the core but you just have to send me some memos if we're all now agreeing the core is good.

[02:04:07] So then she's like we're staying home and watching the core tonight.

[02:04:09] We put on the core in 30 minutes and I'm like who the fuck directed this?

[02:04:12] John Amiel baby.

[02:04:13] Truly I was like and he won best picture within two years of this movie.

[02:04:17] I think you can go back and watch any Delroy Lindo.

[02:04:21] Is it Delroy Lindo and Tucci or both of them?

[02:04:23] Yeah it is.

[02:04:24] Any movie.

[02:04:25] Hillary Swank?

[02:04:26] Any movie that Delroy was in from that era is good.

[02:04:29] Yeah yeah basically.

[02:04:31] Richard Jenkins, Bruce Greenwood.

[02:04:33] I mean these are names.

[02:04:34] Alfre Woodard.

[02:04:35] Number four is basic.

[02:04:37] Basic.

[02:04:38] Number five is the best picture winner of the prior year.

[02:04:41] 2002 is Chicago.

[02:04:42] It's Chicago.

[02:04:43] Still just fucking Cap Dancin all over the box office.

[02:04:45] 14 weeks in it's made 144 million dollars.

[02:04:47] So it still has like 30 left in the tank.

[02:04:49] It's doing great.

[02:04:50] Number six is Dreamcatcher.

[02:04:52] Good normal movie.

[02:04:53] Good and normal film.

[02:04:54] I like that movie.

[02:04:55] Number seven is Agent Cody Banks.

[02:04:57] Good and normal.

[02:04:58] The first one.

[02:04:59] The first one.

[02:05:00] Okay.

[02:05:01] Number eight is Piglet's big movie.

[02:05:04] I will say I don't remember that one in between Winnie and Tigger.

[02:05:08] No no no.

[02:05:10] Tigger was the first of the theatrical releases for the Disney Toon movies.

[02:05:15] Then it's Piglet's big movie and then it's Pooh's heffa lump movie.

[02:05:19] Right right.

[02:05:20] Well Piglet's big movie.

[02:05:21] Number nine is The Haunted.

[02:05:23] It's a funny poster.

[02:05:24] It was his little tush.

[02:05:25] His little corkscrew tail.

[02:05:26] The poster was his little corkscrew tail.

[02:05:27] Just remembered all of that off the top of your head.

[02:05:30] You never cease to fucking amaze me.

[02:05:32] It's crazy.

[02:05:33] The Haunted.

[02:05:34] It's fucking crazy.

[02:05:35] I don't even know what to say about it.

[02:05:37] It's not on my screen.

[02:05:38] I wasn't looking at anything.

[02:05:39] I know.

[02:05:40] And it just we just every once in a while because I've witnessed you do this hundreds

[02:05:44] and hundreds of times but god damn that is insane.

[02:05:47] We have these conversations a lot Ben David and you and I both like to pull things out.

[02:05:51] Sometimes our listeners when they get into the room and they watch me do it in

[02:05:54] real time and see it as not aided by any visuals.

[02:05:58] I just realized that our guest has a name that makes it sound like you're addressing

[02:06:01] Ben and I at the same time.

[02:06:02] I can't believe it took us this long in the episode to figure that out.

[02:06:04] My goodness.

[02:06:05] Yeah I earlier was gonna make a joke about it but I felt narcissistic.

[02:06:08] Okay.

[02:06:09] It's quite all right.

[02:06:10] What if I establish a new bit here that any time I want to address Ben and David at

[02:06:13] the same time on the podcast I say Grabinski.

[02:06:16] Absolutely please do.

[02:06:17] All right when I come back for Dragonfly and Shady Axe 1 we'll get that.

[02:06:21] You'll be back in 11 years.

[02:06:22] You'll be back before you're fucking doing that.

[02:06:23] Number 10 at the box office is View From The Top directed by friend of a friend

[02:06:28] of the show.

[02:06:29] Yes.

[02:06:30] Father of a friend of the show.

[02:06:31] Yes.

[02:06:32] Bruce Baretto is that his name?

[02:06:33] Ex-husband of a previous guest of the show.

[02:06:35] No it's not Bruce.

[02:06:36] What's his name?

[02:06:37] Fuck I gotta look it up.

[02:06:38] What's the I've never seen View From The Top obviously.

[02:06:41] Bruno Baretto.

[02:06:42] Bruno Baretto there you go.

[02:06:43] I know it was not a hit.

[02:06:45] No.

[02:06:46] Does it have a cult following at this point?

[02:06:47] I think a little bit.

[02:06:48] I feel like stylish Gwyneth Paltrow stewardess movies should have a cult following.

[02:06:52] Yeah.

[02:06:53] Like Mike Myers is in it.

[02:06:54] Yes he has the one joke in the trailer of I keep putting the emphasis on the wrong

[02:07:00] Salal Bowl that I will never forget.

[02:07:03] That I think about once a day.

[02:07:04] It lives there in my brain Ben right next to Piglet's tush on the teaser one sheet.

[02:07:09] It's funny that's a time of my life where I can do the box office game and I remember

[02:07:13] 90% of the movies and like I saw everything as like we were talking about before the

[02:07:18] Pollycus Every Brian Van Holt movie but somehow Griffin who was younger than me

[02:07:23] is like well I remember exactly what trailer and like what the final tag of it was

[02:07:27] and what the order of these Disney releases were and I'm like.

[02:07:30] How old were you then?

[02:07:31] I was 14 but I was in full like John Nash mode staring at a wall like just having

[02:07:36] numbers fly off of me.

[02:07:40] What will Travolta do?

[02:07:42] I mean Travolta can do whatever he wants.

[02:07:44] McTiernan.

[02:07:46] Will we ever get him back?

[02:07:48] Obviously there have been various you know him always linked to this movie but that's

[02:07:54] really more before the jail stuff.

[02:07:57] And look we did we did a patron episode that's incredibly good and normal.

[02:08:01] It's kind of the dream catcher of Patreon episodes.

[02:08:04] In which we get into all of that but obviously post prison you know there's this

[02:08:09] supposedly this movie called Red Squad.

[02:08:12] Yeah.

[02:08:13] I think they end up getting made like sort of a red boxy movie that never you know

[02:08:18] came to fruition for him.

[02:08:19] I mean there's a Wikipedia page of 20 unmade John McTiernan projects and half

[02:08:23] of them are post 2003.

[02:08:26] There were things he had on the runway he was trying to get off the ground

[02:08:29] hoping he would not end up in prison.

[02:08:31] There are many things he's tried to set up post prison to a certain degree it's

[02:08:35] almost surprising that you don't realize oh shit that like weird Kellen Lutz

[02:08:41] Millennium Films Red Box thriller was quietly directed by John McTiernan.

[02:08:46] He never will.

[02:08:47] Here's the quote from McTiernan to explain exactly this.

[02:08:49] I'm still being offered action movies.

[02:08:50] Last week I received the story of an armed commando.

[02:08:53] There are still ready people ready to finance things by waving a two

[02:08:56] million dollar payday in my face.

[02:08:57] I would really need it but I always refuse.

[02:08:59] It's always the same story.

[02:09:01] Three guys arm themselves to the teeth and kill a slew of people in Columbia to

[02:09:05] save some poor guy's daughter.

[02:09:06] My country has never gotten over these pathological obsessions.

[02:09:10] Europe is much more civilized.

[02:09:12] I've continued to write and I believe I have strength and years left.

[02:09:16] I'm just as angry now as when I was 19.

[02:09:18] That was a quote from like three months ago.

[02:09:21] Yeah.

[02:09:22] So he's like I'm ready but I don't want to do some bullshit movie like

[02:09:26] So like five years ago I saw him.

[02:09:28] I respect that.

[02:09:29] I will say.

[02:09:30] Yeah.

[02:09:31] I saw him like five years ago.

[02:09:33] There's this thing that this guy that used to do called the they did the six

[02:09:37] shooter series at AFI where six AFI filmmakers would come and introduce a

[02:09:43] movie that made them want to make movies and you didn't know what you

[02:09:45] were going to see and it was like a marathon of six and McTiernan was

[02:09:48] there for the last one and he came out introduced McCabe and Mrs.

[02:09:52] Miller and he was so passionate about it and it made me like

[02:09:55] understand after being obsessed with his movies my whole life suddenly his

[02:09:58] style which is I do think there's a weird analog and like comparison between

[02:10:03] like that era of Altman and what he's doing and how he was using like

[02:10:06] zooms and anamorphic zooms and all that stuff.

[02:10:08] Really like let movies develop organically in the process of making

[02:10:12] the movie building things around the actors he had the conditions and

[02:10:16] feelings moods.

[02:10:17] Yeah.

[02:10:18] And it just made me wish like at the least he wasn't like out there

[02:10:22] just sort of being like a fun scholar like talking about things introducing

[02:10:25] screenings.

[02:10:26] But the sad thing about the timeline to me is I didn't realize until

[02:10:29] recently is that when he went to prison was so much later than basic

[02:10:34] and there was this long time where they weren't sure if he was going to

[02:10:38] and he couldn't get movies made because people didn't know if he was

[02:10:40] going to go.

[02:10:41] Can we just sort of talk about this so you're like a jail before he was

[02:10:44] in jail.

[02:10:45] I mean this is on this Wikipedia page there are a lot of these things and

[02:10:47] a lot of things that like he optioned with his own money.

[02:10:50] A big part of his complete fallout is like the Pelicano thing really

[02:10:54] starts building in 2006 three full years after this movie.

[02:10:59] He's not in a great place career wise but he's trying to get stuff

[02:11:02] made.

[02:11:03] He is not actually sentenced to prison until 2013.

[02:11:05] Yeah.

[02:11:06] He only serves.

[02:11:07] He's sort of months.

[02:11:08] Yeah.

[02:11:09] A little over a year.

[02:11:10] But I mean you say that he's not actually since but like but the

[02:11:13] case.

[02:11:14] Yes.

[02:11:15] It's continuous that he's in court and then he's also going through a

[02:11:19] divorce that exact same period of time.

[02:11:21] He experiences complete bankruptcy like dramatic bankruptcy a lot of which

[02:11:25] is obviously tied to his money being tied up in courts for six years

[02:11:29] hiring lawyers.

[02:11:30] He has he has he's had three divorces.

[02:11:33] I think there's a lot of money going out.

[02:11:35] Yeah but like everything is sort of collapsing in real time and a lot

[02:11:38] of the projects that he had sort of put his own money into trying to

[02:11:41] develop on his own in the post basic pre prison era end up getting pulled

[02:11:46] away as part of liquidation.

[02:11:48] Those rights all fall away from him and just full episode on this but

[02:11:52] like the cornerstone of the Pelicano thing is that he is called by the

[02:11:57] FBI.

[02:11:58] They say we're building a case against Anthony Pelicano.

[02:12:01] Did you ever employ his services?

[02:12:03] He says no I did not.

[02:12:04] Thank you for calling hangs up and finds out they have a tape of him

[02:12:08] saying hey Anthony Pelicano.

[02:12:10] I John McTiernan would like to hire you to tap the phones of Charles Robyn

[02:12:14] the producer of Rollerball and kind of like sure I'm going to do it

[02:12:17] illegal though.

[02:12:18] Yeah.

[02:12:19] He's like that's what I and all the other Pelicano tapes are just sort

[02:12:23] of like and Anthony do whatever you feel like would be the right way to

[02:12:26] go about doing this thing that I'm speaking about very vaguely.

[02:12:29] They had him dead to rights.

[02:12:30] He circles back.

[02:12:31] He says to them I'm sorry I lied.

[02:12:33] I would like to cooperate on this case and then hires a lawyer who

[02:12:38] says you never sort of said that right.

[02:12:40] You should now plead innocence a withdrawal your guilty plea always great

[02:12:44] legal advice from that moment he's fucked and now he's been six years

[02:12:48] trying to double down on his innocence with the advice of a lawyer who

[02:12:51] seemingly was John Travolta in basic.

[02:12:54] I mean I bring all this up here because like the boondoggle of how he

[02:12:58] ends up in prison feels like it follows basic ESC logic of why would

[02:13:02] you make those decisions in that order.

[02:13:05] He unquestionably got screwed in a way where like I didn't even know until I

[02:13:09] originally read this story that if someone just calls you and asks you

[02:13:12] something like you have to tell the truth.

[02:13:14] Yes.

[02:13:15] Like I didn't even know until I found out about the story like a decade

[02:13:17] ago like oh so like someone if someone just like hey did you commit a

[02:13:20] crime and I say no when they find out I did then I'm in trouble like

[02:13:23] what does a phone call mean.

[02:13:24] What are you talking about?

[02:13:25] You could be in trouble for lying to the FBI.

[02:13:27] Yes.

[02:13:28] Yeah but how do you even know if it's the FBI like people like it

[02:13:30] could be a prank call.

[02:13:31] It could have been Bart Simpson.

[02:13:32] I think they said they were the FBI.

[02:13:33] But people say that.

[02:13:34] What does that mean?

[02:13:35] It could be Bart Simpson.

[02:13:36] No but like he claims he's just like I don't even know who this guy was.

[02:13:38] I'm just like never mind I hang up the phone.

[02:13:40] Yes I don't think they were not going to actually put him in jail for

[02:13:43] that it's that he then adopted a belligerent legal strategy that maybe

[02:13:46] was the wrong one and they were like okay well you're guilty of stuff so.

[02:13:50] I get it because they were going after all these gigantic people and

[02:13:53] couldn't get shit and then he became like at least we can take down this

[02:13:56] guy.

[02:13:57] Right.

[02:13:58] And I get why you'd be pissed about it.

[02:14:00] I'm not here to support exactly how he handled it but I just think like I

[02:14:04] can understand losing your mind and being incredibly frustrated about all

[02:14:07] that.

[02:14:08] And especially feeling like the whole thing is crumbling.

[02:14:10] Like it's not just that.

[02:14:12] It's like my wife is leaving me.

[02:14:14] I'm coming off of multiple flops in a row.

[02:14:16] My reputation has been dinged.

[02:14:18] I'm losing my home like all this shit.

[02:14:21] All right.

[02:14:22] But he has a bulletproof legacy that someone should do a podcast

[02:14:25] about talking about all of his movies in a row with one for each of

[02:14:28] them because he's made like I think only two really bad ones one that's just

[02:14:31] okay.

[02:14:32] And then a lot that are like ranging from good to perfect.

[02:14:36] Hold on a second.

[02:14:37] Ben David take out your handgun.

[02:14:39] I'm going to creek this door open creek.

[02:14:42] Oh here we all are drinking Corona's on Bourbon Street.

[02:14:45] It turns out all along that's what's been happening.

[02:14:49] We did three so I didn't know that there was any more of it.

[02:14:52] I just walked into a room and there was microphones and Ben and I thought

[02:14:55] we're talking about Joe Dirt 3 if only it could happen could happen.

[02:15:00] Do you have a pitch on that.

[02:15:02] Don't make to me too.

[02:15:05] Beautiful loser.

[02:15:07] We can we can retcon to out of existence.

[02:15:09] OK.

[02:15:10] Well wait did we talk about the reveal of the your like insight into rollerball.

[02:15:16] Did you get to the can I think we did.

[02:15:19] Yeah yeah yeah.

[02:15:20] But that's that to me again I just we didn't.

[02:15:22] The one thing I just want to say is like it's one of those unbelievable like when

[02:15:26] something's like about that go and you're like we got to get somebody the fact

[02:15:29] that people in a room were like OK well can is not going to do it.

[02:15:32] Who can we get this like can you know one is like can you think Chris Klein

[02:15:37] is not like can you like I get how someone who doesn't has black hair you see

[02:15:41] and they're like oh like sir is he dumb energy but you can see the worst

[02:15:46] studio thinking that gets to get someone who doesn't understand why can

[02:15:50] it was great maybe but the idea that Alexander Payne was just in a high school

[02:15:55] one day and is like that guy feels like this character let's put him in front

[02:15:59] of a camera and then years later the director of Die Hard is like shooting

[02:16:03] him by going down San Francisco on a luge or whatever that that line is

[02:16:08] on missing a huge middle step.

[02:16:11] He was great in American pot.

[02:16:13] I think he's great in all those.

[02:16:15] I think I think he's very good in comedies.

[02:16:17] I don't think he's an action star and if you ever go on YouTube look up all of

[02:16:21] his lines in quick succession from Street Fighter.

[02:16:24] We talked about it.

[02:16:26] Ben David you made a top 11.

[02:16:29] I was going to say top 10.

[02:16:31] You ranked McTiernan's films.

[02:16:33] Yes you've been rewatching all that I rewatched all of them as like my

[02:16:37] four followers on letterbox would know.

[02:16:39] I'm one of them.

[02:16:40] So how do any of how do we want to do this who's going to go first.

[02:16:43] I'll go first.

[02:16:44] Oh here he comes.

[02:16:45] I mean I it is.

[02:16:46] It's just a weird case of just like I feel like we're all going to have the

[02:16:50] same bottle in the same top and it's a question of what the order is.

[02:16:53] I agree with you although I think we don't but you I'd say there's

[02:16:57] objective reality at the top two and if you guys get it wrong I'm going

[02:17:00] to storm out interesting.

[02:17:02] Okay I'd say Rollerball is his worst movie.

[02:17:05] Okay you're going to bounce the top shirt.

[02:17:07] I put that at 11 I put Nomads at 10 I put 13th warrior at nine.

[02:17:12] I'm like those are the three that I interesting.

[02:17:15] I have medicine man at nine.

[02:17:18] I have basic at eight.

[02:17:20] I have massive man at seven.

[02:17:22] So I'm just like 13th warrior Nomads Rollerball.

[02:17:26] Those are a tear medicine man basic.

[02:17:29] That's like a mini tier.

[02:17:30] Okay then I'm like last action hero is firmly in the middle of like

[02:17:34] this perfect embodiment of number.

[02:17:36] That's my six right and then there's just a rock solid top five.

[02:17:40] Give me the note that is all four to five star movies in the order.

[02:17:44] My order and this is shooting off the hip number five die hard with

[02:17:49] a vengeance number four Thomas Crown Affair number three hunt for

[02:17:53] red October number two predator number one die hard.

[02:17:57] Should I go next.

[02:17:58] Yes has been serviced.

[02:18:01] I'm I'm going to get into it but I'm I've I've thoughts.

[02:18:06] Okay I have a Rollerball at 11 Nomads at 10.

[02:18:09] I'm sorry medicine man at nine 13th warrior at eight basic at seven.

[02:18:15] Yes I just find mess and man more watchable not I even if it's not more

[02:18:21] functional I have last section hero at six.

[02:18:24] I have Thomas Crown at five to my own surprise.

[02:18:27] I love to die hard with a vengeance so much on rewatch yes that I have

[02:18:31] that at four I have predator three and red October two die hard is my

[02:18:35] number one but I agree with you it re tears generally right like the

[02:18:41] basement of that tear might honestly be four and a half stars.

[02:18:44] I agree I agree I just think they die hard hunt for it October has to be

[02:18:49] the top two just in terms of I think that those are the best executed

[02:18:54] like studio pieces of entertainment and a human being could ever make.

[02:18:59] I agree with you.

[02:19:00] I just love Predator so I will never very griff movie.

[02:19:04] Big lizard man and it's a parody masculinity and it's like a sandbox movie

[02:19:10] with everything pushed together I agree with you anyway we love these films.

[02:19:14] Look I think it's a difference between if I'm like what is John McTiernan's

[02:19:18] finest work versus what is my favorite John McTiernan movie.

[02:19:21] I mean he's made six movies to me that are all five stars but a couple

[02:19:25] more like 500 stars so like I'll just I'm going to start at the top

[02:19:28] because I'm yes yeah number one's die hard obviously it's you know one

[02:19:33] of the best movies I've made hunt for it October I think is honestly not that

[02:19:36] far away from die hard it's just fucking unbelievable it's unbelievable and

[02:19:40] like I had done a list before I did my rewatch and it was number three and

[02:19:43] when I watched it I'm like this is undeniable like I think anything

[02:19:46] else it just while I was watching I'm like I'd be wrong to do anything

[02:19:50] but then now I go insane because I'm voting just on favorite sure which

[02:19:54] is number three is last action here so that's how this coming yeah last

[02:19:57] action hero maybe 30 percent of it there's like there's some jokes in it

[02:20:01] that have never made me laugh and never will and it's 20 minutes too long

[02:20:04] but the highs of it to me are like so fucking high this is this is my

[02:20:09] fucking Nancy Meyers intern take where I'm like there's 30 percent of the

[02:20:12] Internet I hate and 70 percent of it I think is the best shit ever I

[02:20:15] compare it to the Internet all the time they're very similar movie but

[02:20:18] like the intro of Arnold walking over the cop cars with like zooming

[02:20:21] and like tracking with these steps down the guitar kicks in and cigar

[02:20:25] fucking unbelievable predators next perfect movie and the shocking thing

[02:20:30] for me was that I put Thomas crown above die hard three on this and die

[02:20:34] hard three is always been one of my favorite movies and it still is but the

[02:20:38] finale of Thomas crown on this viewing I'm just like this is a God

[02:20:42] making yes I think if you have to figure out those two movies are very

[02:20:47] close in a lot of ways in terms of ranking right and you're like

[02:20:51] Thomas crown nails the ending so hard and that is exactly where die her

[02:20:54] with a vengeance falls apart a little bit so if you have to give one

[02:20:57] of them the hair he becomes McGroober in the last two minutes like the whole

[02:21:01] movie is a badass and suddenly a helicopter shows up and he's like I'm

[02:21:04] here I'm John McClane I'm blowing our cover yeah like they come out he gives

[02:21:08] him time to get another helicopter and then he gets out and then he like

[02:21:12] shoots a wire but then it doesn't hit the thing but then they run into

[02:21:14] the thing and then he says the thing yeah it's just like and I in any

[02:21:20] other movie I'd be like fist pumping at that moment but that movie is just

[02:21:25] so unbelievable and then the final few moments feel like well we got to end it

[02:21:30] and we can't do that thing with the rocket launchers so I mean I said it in

[02:21:33] our episode but the first hour of that movie is six out of five stars the

[02:21:38] first hour is unbelievable and then it drops down to five I said like I say

[02:21:44] that the first 47 movies of that our masterpiece the next hour is just a

[02:21:47] classic and the last three minutes don't work I that I think is a good

[02:21:51] assessment alright so next one is 13th warrior which I was really shocked

[02:21:54] by how much I enjoyed it on this watch I hadn't seen it since theaters then

[02:21:58] basic and then my and then Nomads and then my bottom two are medicine man

[02:22:02] and rollerball medicine man to me was just like it was like seeing a movie

[02:22:08] like out of focus it just for it just wasn't and it I went down a crazy

[02:22:13] rabbit hole on it and it was all because like he had a meeting with

[02:22:16] Connery and realized that Connery would not be the lead but he had to be

[02:22:20] the lead and he wouldn't let's like have to be a strong woman and he was

[02:22:24] like it needed to be the dynamic of like Thomas Crown Affair but like she's

[02:22:28] just no I love her and everything else but in that movie this was our take

[02:22:32] on that episode it is one of the most catastrophic miscastings in the

[02:22:35] history of Hollywood in a way that actually feels like cruel to her yeah

[02:22:40] and I love her but like she's just it felt like they're like who is the

[02:22:44] the least right person to carry this whole movie that is already a weird

[02:22:48] idea for a movie yes and then rollerball is just rollerball I mean it's

[02:22:52] not a good film it's not it doesn't really doesn't really make it work

[02:22:55] doesn't really roll I will miss this man I will too I mean just I'm just

[02:23:02] like looking at my letterbox list visually and it was the whole argument

[02:23:06] for why we want to do him why we got excited when we started doing him

[02:23:09] it's just being like look at these five of the most watchable movies

[02:23:13] ever made right at this top tier the way letterbox visually splits it up you

[02:23:20] know it's why we did him yeah and why we always were going to do him and

[02:23:24] everything weird is weird in an interesting way he there is nothing

[02:23:28] uninteresting about this man's career but Thomas Crown I think is really

[02:23:31] really really underrated and it's also just not a great home video

[02:23:35] version of it but when I was watching and I'm like it's one of

[02:23:39] the best are rated programmers for adults made of like any error for me

[02:23:45] like it feels like a movie that could be on TCM UK release with a good slip

[02:23:50] cover and some retrospective features well you know I bought the wrong

[02:23:53] blu-ray and you know whatever I guess I'm not a physical media guy it's

[02:23:56] still not great but it's it's it's better than the American version

[02:23:59] interesting I'm really embarrassed I didn't know this happened I would have

[02:24:02] bought it over overdue for a 4k maybe it'll happen now basically anytime

[02:24:06] I buy an import but still book that looks like the briefcase a steel case I

[02:24:10] mean that's fun I would say I have to mention it just that you are in the

[02:24:16] episode of my show that was very loosely inspired by last action hero so

[02:24:20] there is that tissue that is true and the main role of the sort of motley

[02:24:27] of miscellaneous roles I played on the show was me riffing on John

[02:24:31] Travolta my Danny's you go to mental Danny's yeah that's straight walls we

[02:24:36] should go full Zuko yeah and I'm really excited that David Lynch won your

[02:24:42] March Madness you're calling it here yeah the voting hasn't even started

[02:24:46] yet we recorded before the episode looks like Soderbergh is taking Barry

[02:24:51] Levinson to the cleaners that's all we really know so far okay that's

[02:24:55] the only news we have before the episode you were saying you were going

[02:24:58] to do the opposite bit of confidently predicting the person you think is

[02:25:01] least likely to win and now you're you're just I was going to like I'm so

[02:25:05] glad Curtis Hansen won and I feel like I probably did it somewhere in this

[02:25:08] 10-hour podcast and forgot it but the I hope you do lynch because you

[02:25:14] there's a fake movie in one of our episodes that you can barely hear in

[02:25:18] the mix now where I wrote like ten pages of like a Preston Sturgis or

[02:25:21] Frank Capper movie it's very fun to record Dean Hurley who is lynch's

[02:25:25] I'm a sound designer created a whole fake audio track and I don't even know

[02:25:28] how anyone can hear it anyone who's here heard it loves it but you can't

[02:25:31] hear it in the mix and you had to do like ten pages of time I did a lot

[02:25:35] it was fun to do no is I mean I don't know if there's some way to

[02:25:38] somehow it who knows but yeah but there's a deep deep but everything

[02:25:43] that's in the video store there's a fake movie playing and all the

[02:25:47] background and then yeah that's the thing you're in the like Dean Hurley

[02:25:51] who did Twin Peaks the Return and all that stuff so when Curtis Hansen and

[02:25:54] lynch tie and you do both of their series back to back yeah that's the

[02:25:57] one promise we're making we're gonna do them both tell the listeners what

[02:26:01] show you're talking about we should plug it's got pilgrim takes off I

[02:26:04] know I mean anyone is gonna watch it sorry I meant well you know I

[02:26:10] Griffin played multiple people played multiple on the show I didn't play

[02:26:13] multiple man but I played multiple characters and and I we get hired

[02:26:18] because of the ad reads on this show this is true this is what Ben David

[02:26:22] told me I did tell no that's like the cause of the awesome yeah

[02:26:26] Jamie Madrox right what Eric Dane played him is that the only time I want

[02:26:31] to tempt him he's the only live-action yeah kind of a narrowed

[02:26:34] Dane type right the way those fucking movies burn the silence my

[02:26:39] number yes sure McSteamy reborn what are you talking about if you

[02:26:44] laugh at what I say that it makes it sound like I'm in the middle of a few

[02:26:48] state over how the later X-Men movies waste a lot of my favorite X-Men yeah

[02:26:52] with like one scene with like I'm the multiple man I get multiple and

[02:26:55] someone's like I just hit you in the head with a hammer and he's like

[02:26:57] I'm dead I watched the entire Fox X-Men universe every day and I have

[02:27:00] zero notes it was executed perfectly your notes about the behind

[02:27:04] the scene yeah the morality of the people working on the films

[02:27:07] especially in senior positions I go good sounds good

[02:27:13] no man I had something to say and I just got so thrown out

[02:27:17] that guy needs to get taken down a peg make him uncomfortable

[02:27:23] it's well sadly only ever played nightcrawler one that sucks and then he

[02:27:28] wanted to come back and then I don't know fuck you we only make bad

[02:27:32] decisions here I just want to say in case I never get to come back that

[02:27:36] either way this is my favorite podcast and I'm extremely appreciative that I

[02:27:42] got to be on it and I listen to every normal episode and the Patreon

[02:27:47] episodes that's a good way to delineate normal and patriotic yeah

[02:27:51] no I think we're good on paywall no I'm paywall but it's not normal

[02:27:56] yeah I'm just saying it's like I definitely listen to way too much for

[02:28:00] all of it and I just do want to mention that when I'm on a show

[02:28:04] I just do want to mention that when I listen to the Predator one and we got to the end

[02:28:08] and Chris said none of them are good at Arnold impressions

[02:28:12] no no I mean one of us is really bad at it

[02:28:16] I like the focus of that statement being on the group being bad

[02:28:20] rather than what I've been reading for the last several weeks are

[02:28:24] I know he's trying to own it and be funny but truly how is he so bad

[02:28:28] it's just funny that you do Adam Sandler in Hotel Transylvania that you do an

[02:28:32] impression of something that is recognizable that's why yours is particularly funny

[02:28:36] like that's really what you're doing

[02:28:40] in my ears it sounds very different it doesn't sound like Arnold but it does sound different

[02:28:44] and then when I was listening back to the episode I was like yeah it kind of does have a blah blah blah

[02:28:48] if he bleeds we can kill it blah blah blah I don't think

[02:28:52] I have a particularly good Arnold at all but having a good Arnold it's like walking or whatever it's like

[02:28:56] there's 80 guys who do a good one you're never going to hit that tier

[02:29:00] people have been saying I've been putting too much energy into it

[02:29:04] like if I just

[02:29:08] yeah do McBain sure that's the joke I'm like I don't think I'm doing that well but it's less

[02:29:12] egregious than what I was doing at the beginning of this miniseries

[02:29:16] have you ever been able to do someone then lost it like I used to do a really good Wahlberg

[02:29:20] and now I couldn't do it with a gun in my head interesting yeah I could do it and everyone

[02:29:24] would like laugh and then now it's like I got in my head about it and now I don't sound like him at all

[02:29:28] I honestly I get any time I'm fucking teed up

[02:29:32] to do Joseph Gordon Levitt I have that fear of like what if this is the time

[02:29:36] I realize I've lost it the top will spin and then fall and I'm Julie Andrews and I can't sing anymore

[02:29:40] I'm like it's the one that everyone agrees I have

[02:29:44] you have others dude you shouldn't just think of JTL as your only one

[02:29:48] Nolte just takes a lot out of me I can't believe I did a Jonathan Leibsman

[02:29:52] drive by for like another reason it's like now I'm someday I'm going to host SNL and he's

[02:29:56] going to be the musical guest and it's going to be like really bad hey look he does play a mean

[02:30:00] kazoo yeah first of all ten comedy points second of all

[02:30:04] we're doing Ninja Turtles on Patreon so I'll be making my own drive bys

[02:30:08] oh poor Leibsman that's right he's about to get like worked like a speed

[02:30:12] bag yes that's right hey and David do you know who we're doing next have I told you

[02:30:16] I forget who you're doing after this yeah oh that's right we're about to announce it to our listeners

[02:30:20] oh my goodness I don't know but I'm excited to find out

[02:30:24] and not be able to tell anybody for months well next week we're rolling straight into

[02:30:28] our next miniseries because we do have a couple new releases coming out this summer that are going to break

[02:30:32] things up some scheduling palette cleansers we have Furiosa and Beetle Juice

[02:30:36] Beetle Juice and M. Night Shyamalan's Trap coming up over the summer

[02:30:40] so no kind of Ben's Choices or palette cleansers in between I mean you never know

[02:30:44] does M. Night Shyamalan's Daughter get covered no but I'm excited for that movie

[02:30:48] yeah it's got a good premise we're getting to an interesting territory of

[02:30:52] do we owe this movie in any form there's starting to be some things

[02:30:56] that feel adjacent to things we owe and I feel like

[02:31:00] we're erring on the side of no no no but the

[02:31:04] patrons there for a reason we can always throw things up there maybe yeah but like when I walk

[02:31:08] at my door people throw eggs at me and go like what is the plan for Frozen Empire

[02:31:12] and I'm like probably we never do an episode no there's no yeah we know

[02:31:16] I think we have a hard and fast rule we are not obligated to cover new entries in franchises

[02:31:20] we've never done that unless it is a main feed franchise

[02:31:24] yes but like we like we set

[02:31:28] that for us right away because we did Marvel and it's not like we're going to catch up on

[02:31:32] every Marvel you know what that's good that we it's the Marvel rule right and at

[02:31:36] this point imagine if we were like alright guys strap in 15 more

[02:31:40] Marvel episodes and they're the ones that everyone likes

[02:31:44] and we watch all the shows look next week we're

[02:31:48] going straight into another if not

[02:31:52] long mold long requested long desired filmmaker

[02:31:56] Satoshi Kong another tragically short filmography

[02:32:00] true cut short by death death his first

[02:32:04] film perfect blue will be our episode next week my favorite animated movie of all

[02:32:08] time I mean this guy made several films that are in

[02:32:12] that conversation I think so there were at least three of his movies I hear people

[02:32:16] regularly argue could be considered the greatest animated film of all time

[02:32:20] and the TV show that people also consider the height of a medium is no slouch either

[02:32:24] and then the fourth one I've that's the only one I've ever seen but I hear it's no slouch

[02:32:28] Satoshi Kong perfect blue millennium actress Tokyo Godfathers

[02:32:32] Paprika it's a month of Satoshi and we'll be doing paranoia agent on

[02:32:36] Patreon are you going to do a Patreon of Opus his

[02:32:40] no but I've ordered I am going to read it it's really good it's on my coffee table

[02:32:44] and then after that we're going to do a couple other guys before we get to

[02:32:48] Curtis Hansen or whoever it is yeah we're doing shorties because

[02:32:52] we have to we kind of keep we were going to run out of runway

[02:32:56] waiting for Marsh Madness winners we got to stay ahead so we're doing we're

[02:33:00] sliding in a couple shorties but it's been fun to knock out a lot of these people who have been

[02:33:04] and before anyone thinks that's a sign that we're ending the show

[02:33:08] if we enough covered every person who we have

[02:33:12] said we will definitely cover one day the show would run for ten years to

[02:33:16] get us right to Tom Shady act and then we end on a perfect note when are you doing Gora Verbinski

[02:33:20] exactly I missed my best bad joke

[02:33:24] I'm so mad which is a my theory that the

[02:33:28] guy for who shot base base come on I already read my joke but the guy

[02:33:32] who shot roller ball in basic shot

[02:33:36] before that my theories that McTiernan was so obsessed with how he shot that new

[02:33:40] sport that he hired that guy to do roller ball yeah which is also my

[02:33:44] theory like of Spielberg was so in a cool as ice that's why he hired Kaminsky like

[02:33:48] I just decide there's always some hair brain reason I think my joke response

[02:33:52] to you because you texted that joke to me oh I think at some point I said you can

[02:33:56] use this joke I think I texted and I said you get to say that and I think my

[02:34:00] response was basic skit ball it is I think I

[02:34:04] think you basic get ball and it is so funny to

[02:34:08] think about Spielberg hiring Yanush Kaminsky not because he's Polish like

[02:34:12] I'm making Schindler's List and maybe I should but instead being like cool as ice

[02:34:16] is giving Schindler's List if you watch a movie on mute it does

[02:34:20] it's got all the gravitas yeah yes

[02:34:24] and of course after Satoshi Konn we'll be discussing the directorial

[02:34:28] career of Yanush Kaminsky it's gonna be lost souls

[02:34:32] oh man always forget he directed that yeah I forget that movie

[02:34:36] every day that's actually you forget that movie every day every day it slips out of your

[02:34:40] brain but that someday I do want to do a podcast on why direct DP

[02:34:44] should stay DPS and not direct even if it's a rare jump

[02:34:48] right yeah you and I have had that conversation way too many times yeah

[02:34:52] the two who made the jump successfully and then lost it who?

[02:34:56] Sonnefeld like it's worth it for those

[02:35:00] but if you look at all the other guys every single time they do it it's like dude like

[02:35:04] it's just fascinating that it doesn't happen and astounding that those two guys still couldn't

[02:35:08] maintain yeah and they can never go back it's like everyone would rather just direct

[02:35:12] commercials forever than go back to being like an A-list DP and it's like come on man

[02:35:16] there's one guy in particular we've talked a lot about no but it's a lot of guys no I know

[02:35:20] Lancer Court is like the biggest commercial director out there and he was Spike Jonze amazing DP

[02:35:24] and the commercials he does I would say are not particularly interesting this is a weird way to

[02:35:28] end the McTiernan episode it is is there anything else we

[02:35:32] need to say did you know this that Lance Accord directed that like 10 minute ET

[02:35:36] sequel mini movie look it's I'm not gonna beef

[02:35:40] with anyone like who's earned in the living or whatever but yes it can we just talk about the fact

[02:35:44] that Predator should not be watchable and yet it's a masterpiece

[02:35:48] yes I mean I agree with that Predator is very good

[02:35:52] and that is a McTiernan film so probably a better thing to end on but is there any

[02:35:56] other note do you want to do your Schwarzenegger impersonation one more time

[02:36:00] maybe can we do that remember the Schwarzenegger prank call

[02:36:04] thing can we like prank call someone that's like feels like a producer Ben move like

[02:36:08] soundboard yeah the soundboard where it's like my CPU is a neural net processor and all that stuff

[02:36:12] can we make a Yarnold soundboard so people can prank phone call other people with

[02:36:16] Yarnold quotes? No we need to redo it where Griffin does all of them. Well you're asking it as a question

[02:36:20] if I had to answer I would say no okay well then I'll say

[02:36:24] thank you all for listening to these mini series

[02:36:28] now are you just putting some spin on it at this point? No I'm actually no because if I want to do

[02:36:32] a better I'll just thank you all for listening to this stuff fuck

[02:36:36] fuck here's what I want to say here's how I want to end the episode

[02:36:40] Ben David thank you for being here. Thank you Ben David. I hope I didn't ruin it. Absolutely not we'll have you

[02:36:44] on sooner than dragonfly which is on the books I'm looking here January 1st

[02:36:48] 20... 30

[02:36:52] 35 yeah 35 there you go yeah yeah

[02:36:56] I'm just saying that I'm just trying to make it sound like baron trump is president. So you're gonna have me for patch adams?

[02:37:00] And now excuse me let me just prepare myself here

[02:37:04] Thank you all for listening please remember the rate, review and subscribe

[02:37:08] Thank you to everybody for

[02:37:12] co-producing the show. It sounds like he's trying to eat flubber

[02:37:16] Thank you to TKM for all the research

[02:37:20] Like his mouth is at war with itself. Thank you to

[02:37:24] our team song. End of days is pretty good. Alex Barron

[02:37:28] AJ Mckeon for editing. AJ Mckeon is also the production coordinator

[02:37:32] I'm gonna watch that. I'm gonna watch End of Days. Joe Bomb

[02:37:36] Paranams for artwork. Thinking of doing like a Satan series

[02:37:40] You should do Peter Hyams. He put your face on my body David

[02:37:44] David he put your face on my body

[02:37:48] He put your face on my body isn't that funny David

[02:37:52] I'm gonna get to the chopper. Tune in next week for

[02:37:56] Perfect Blue blah blah blah

[02:38:00] We probably know the guests on that one but we'll see. And as always I have been your Arnold Hay