Batman Returns with Emily Yoshida

[00:00:01] Blank Check with Griffin and David Blank Check with Griffin and David Don't know what to say or to expect All you need to know is that the name of the show is Blank Check My dear penguins, we stand on a great threshold It's okay to be scared

[00:00:27] Many of you won't be coming back Thanks to Batman, the time has come to punish all God's children First, second, third, and fourth-born Why be biased? Male and female How the sexes are equal with their erogenous zones blown sky high Forward march! The liberation of podcast has begun

[00:00:55] What an insane movie I'm so glad that was one of the two that I was... I was looking for the chubby little digits speech This dad, I couldn't find that one No, I wrote it down Why because I was born A shiny flipper

[00:01:13] When I picked up my Tiffany Rattle with a smooth flipper Instead of five chubby digits, they freaked I was their number one son And they treated me like number two I have been weirdly...

[00:01:32] It seems like now maybe some part of it was me getting ready to watch this movie again Because this is a movie I rewatched a lot And I knew we were going to do this in Mays series I was like, I will withhold and not rewatch this movie

[00:01:46] For a year I want to edge so that it really pays off when I get to watch it again But in the last couple weeks leading up to this episode, I've been watching a lot of Taxi Like old, like DeVito, old DeVito Yeah, and it is young DeVito

[00:02:00] I mean really like formative, like the genesis of DeVito What are you watching it on? What's it on? Hulu Hulu has every season but they're missing a lot of episodes Maybe for licensing or what have you

[00:02:12] But it did make me realize like, oh this is literally the only time DeVito hasn't given a performance like this Oh, you mean... In his entire career Wait, this? Batman Returns No, yeah It's crazy No, he's doing... like it's really hard to imagine doing anything like this now

[00:02:29] He's never done a character performance like this outside of this one movie His weird sort of like, you know, public persona at this point is becoming sort of penguin He's like chaotic good penguin Yeah, where he's just like, man, I'm a rescue, retire bitch

[00:02:47] And like posting tweets of his foot And then I saw him drinking his lemon cellar Trollfoot Trollfoot Trollfoot, yeah And he gave this special award at a Gotham ceremony that I was at one year A Gotham ceremony! Fair fair, I didn't even make that connection

[00:03:03] To like his producing part You know, it's what's he, Jersey Film sort of And he just got on stage, you know, and it's the Gotham So people are just kind of eating and not paying attention And he just went, holy shitballs Holy shitballs Like eight times

[00:03:18] Where everyone's just like, what's he doing? I'm gonna present the award to like, he just Do you know about the splatter cuts thing? Like eight years ago, Dan Avito went to Comic Con and like set up a booth

[00:03:31] Like it wasn't even like a panel, he just like had a booth And everyone was like, what are you doing here? And he's like, I'm making short form horror movies now And he was like, why can't horror movies be 90 seconds long

[00:03:43] And he and some childhood friend of his set up a YouTube channel where they made really gory Like 90 second horror moba sounds And there's a video that he made to promote it That's like him sitting down at like a junket to talk about splatter cuts

[00:03:58] And you just hear the interviewer off screen going like, and here we have Joining us Dan Avito who's here to talk about splatter cuts Splatter cuts are a new way of horror A short form 90 second delectable bite And he's like wrestling to put like his mic on

[00:04:11] And then the second they ask him the first question which is like So how are you doing today? His head explodes scanner style With like blood and viscera all over the place And you're just like, I guess he just liked this idea

[00:04:23] And probably put two million dollars into it And you can't find any trace of those short films online anymore I'm googling and Google doesn't even know what you're talking about He did start his own lemon cello company The blood factory Blood factory, that's what it was

[00:04:37] Not his lemon cello company No, the lemon cello company is not called the blood factory That was of course he went on the view after apparently being out all night With George Clooney drinking lemon cello And went on the talk show not hungover but still drunk

[00:04:52] Yeah, still very drunk And did a George W. Bush impression I feel like the lemon cello episode or like chapter Of Danny DeVito's career is like a very early Twitter thing for me Because he was like an early follow for me for some reason on Twitter

[00:05:06] It used to be interesting that an actor would like to base themselves by being on that website Yeah That was also like, I remember like best week ever Devoting like 17 weeks to the lemon cello interview Because it was just like it was one of those weird

[00:05:22] Like the first times that the new media landscape had such a like Slow motion chain wreck on television to dissect Like it was like Drew Barrymore like jumping on the desk Except now we had a thousand outlets to like take it apart Right Hello everybody this is a

[00:05:40] Lemon cello talk Talking DeVito Talking cello Ben can you insert a cello drop right there? Like a cello string, thank you Little yo-yo ma No of course I'm joking this podcast is called Fanny DeVito It's a podcast for Danny DeVito fans I am a fanny

[00:05:59] I can't deny it Uh, Stanny DeVito You know he was in this play like the price last year Right, his Broadway debut Yeah correct In which apparently he like eats a whole egg on stage at one point And it's like very dramatic

[00:06:14] And I didn't go because it got bad reviews but I really should have gone I wanted to see me that egg He got like a Tony num, yeah a horrible egg He like peels and dramatically eats a hard boiled egg Ten times a week including Matt and eggs

[00:06:28] Yeah right what's up It's a lot of protein I know I once I was in LA and there were a lot of posters up that he was doing The Sunshine Boys with Jed Hirsch Yeah yeah So he'd never done Broadway but I guess he would do like

[00:06:40] Off-road way like Yeah Anyway no That was West End right His podcast is called Blank Check It's about filmographies Directors who have massive success early on in their career And are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want Sometimes those checks clear

[00:06:54] And sometimes they bounce And what a grader What are you, they bounce what? Baby You're first born baby Like they wrote this and they were like Yeah we don't know who we're gonna have Like that woman will meet with every famous actress in America

[00:07:13] And then like who's gonna play the penguin And they were like everyone was just like Well, Dan Avido right? Who else is gonna play this? But then the other thing is You have to imagine that when he went to Warner Brothers

[00:07:23] And was like Dan Avido's playing the penguin They're like you know what his instincts are so on point We're not gonna question anything he's doing And then you assume Dan Avido shows up and plays the penguin Like Louis the Palma

[00:07:32] And is like hey come on I'm trying to steal some money here Right then he'll play it like Burgess Melody Meredith right he'll be like a gangster Right he's done that Right instead of playing it like Klaus Kinski Let's make this the most horrifying character to look at

[00:07:47] In the history of cinema There's a shot there's a shot And when he first is It realizes that he's being put into this campaign Where he's just standing in the middle of the office And he's still in his dirty pajamas Holding a fish All free feet of him

[00:08:01] A dead fish And there's just some It's so funny Like it's I just burst out laughing This movie is a masterpiece It's also one of those things where like For how much Dan Avido like may his career playing like the scumbag

[00:08:14] He's never actually been sold as menacing in a film Sure Like when he's the asshole or the villain He's always like a joke That he's the villain Yeah Because he's the tiny guy Right He's a little person They do that in the first episode of Taxi

[00:08:28] Where he's in his little cage And it's elevated And he's yelling at them for the whole first half of the episode And then when he's like Hey I'm gonna come talk to you And gets out of the cage and stands And he's little The audience applauds

[00:08:40] Right right right And you're like And that is the last time anyone can ever make that joke Because now we all know That Dan Avido Is four foot eleven That is true But at the time that he's making this He is a genuine movie star

[00:08:52] This is like ruthless people Other people's money Like those kinds of movies Like where Danny Avido is a leading man Sort of Yeah As long as he's playing like A very specific type of character And when he's a supporting character The movies are also huge And he's already

[00:09:06] You know he's done twins And he's directed both Romama from the train And War the Roses at this point Uh huh And Hoffa is this year Right okay And uh Romancing the stone I mean he's had like a really incredible run For a guy

[00:09:20] Who shouldn't be a movie Very specific More specific type There shouldn't be that many roles That fit him Ten men he's great in ten men The Barry Levinson movie This is like a real spread of like Different genres Different size roles

[00:09:32] Is this the first time you guys have gotten to talk about Davido on a podcast? Well yes Transylvanian Is a very small part Yeah that barely counts We will talk about him again on Mars Attacks Uh huh Spoiler alert That's a great discussion

[00:09:47] Not about his career so much more About his specific role there His billing Uh Dumbo Of course he is SWAC Hammer in um Oh so he does have a SWAC Hammer of course But apart from that Maybe we haven't really talked about him too much

[00:10:01] Look you've read the episode description You know what's going on here But let me make it clear Today we're talking Bartman Returns He's back And we're talking it with the mother Blankies herself From Nightcall And Vulture Emily Oshida Hi Thank you for being here Hell here

[00:10:19] This movie does not give a fuck This movie is so bizarre That man shows up what like 40 minutes in I checked That man doesn't have proper dialogue until minute 40 Cause he has that one scene the fight scene But that's it In between zero and 40

[00:10:37] And he says like one word during that And then his first real dialogue scene Is him eating the soup Right Minute 40 The Vichys was So I saw this movie Before I saw the first Batman movie I didn't see the first Batman movie for a while

[00:10:52] I don't think I saw that till I was a teenager or something But I saw this on VHS On VHS At a slumber party Like around the time that it came out And I did not realize that Michael Keaton Ever played Batman for a very long time

[00:11:10] Because I had only seen this movie And it was a movie about Catwoman Right That man is maybe the fourth lead And there's a guy that she's like Goes on some dates with and kisses at some point With But that I mean

[00:11:26] That couldn't have been Michael Keaton though Put it together finally And then kind of retroactively realize The yeah the bizarreness of casting Keaton In this role Which I would argue works better In the first movie than it does In this movie

[00:11:43] I would agree because the first one is more interested In him as a character And when you're not focusing on him as much It's odd to see Keaton filling what is more of a classic Sort of like mannequin leading man role Right He can only be interesting

[00:11:59] So if you're making him be boring What's what Right What are you doing with him If you're making him do nothing in particular Everything that's interesting about his character In this movie is just holding onto your memory Of what they set up in the first movie Right

[00:12:13] But I would even argue I mean I like him in the first movie I'm gonna throw this down because You know Griffin fucking loves him I like him a lot too And I just listened to your podcast with With Cam This morning I'm the one And I just

[00:12:34] The first movie doesn't work for me at all Interesting And I think he I think he is making interesting choices But those choices would work in a different movie Like a different approach to doing Batman Like Batman Returns No, no actually like in the opposite direction

[00:12:51] Of Batman Returns You're saying Keaton's performance you're saying Right so this movie is like getting slapped In the face repeatedly for two hours And Michael Keaton is like whispering And you will never hear him Sure I'm not saying that I don't like this movie

[00:13:09] But I'm saying we all can agree this movie is fucking bananas Yes And he is very consciously not doing fucking bananas Even though we know he's capable of that So here's a take Sure go ahead I think what's interesting about this movie Look it's not a fight

[00:13:26] I think this movie is a masterpiece Keaton's my number one guy Griffin is crying blood Sorry I think one of the most audacious things about this movie Is it essentially puts Batman in quote unquote the girlfriend role Yes

[00:13:42] Like it is a movie in which Batman is fulfilling the Vicki Vale role Yeah And it's really about Catwoman and Penguin And Batman is just sort of like a reflection board for the two of them For point of comparison Yeah You know I'm sure

[00:13:56] Tell me one thing he does other than that doesn't have to do with her Like and this is a good reverse Bechdel test Like for Batman No that's my point My point is that he exists like Vicki Vale only to service

[00:14:06] But I don't even think he reflects anything Like I think she does everything on her own Like I don't know I mean I don't want to front load all my tapes Okay But I think that's sort of like you know usually the girlfriend of Batman movie

[00:14:20] Is this like question of like could he ever have a normal life Could it be normal And in this Batman is Catwoman's normal scene Right He's like let's just be regular superhero The idea is like this is a movie about like traumatic incidents

[00:14:32] And she's like no pardon me I'm insane Like you know she like anytime she's like maybe Ben also could you just edit out all the times Griffin was shrieking When Emily was criticizing the film Just bring that low I'm like damp with tears right now

[00:14:47] And when a poison gas accreted out of my pores And tried to murder everyone this too Okay I think this is a movie about like People reacting differently to traumatic incidents And so they all exist as like alternate pathways for each other In a way you know

[00:15:06] When the movie is that movie It is great Right It is fantastic There was a lot of time when it's not being that movie It's doing a lot of things It's doing a lot of things It's doing a lot of things Yeah I was you know

[00:15:21] Now I feel like I'm in an arraborus here Because I was just listening to your other conversation about the first one But I think that the whole thing about the nightmare imagery Especially because this is a movie that I did see young And then

[00:15:32] I think I've probably seen two or three times Max now Sure But I hadn't seen it for a very very very long time And so it did have that thing of There are things I know are in this movie

[00:15:43] But I'm also like not sure if I hallucinated them as a child It's kind of funny that the first Batman gets talked about As like oh Like legitimacy Like the legitimacy of Superheroes It's like the first time we kind of dip our toe into that

[00:15:58] But it is so camp to me It is so like the only thing that is not That is not out now like still kind of in the Adam West zone For me is Keaton's performance and the set design Like the production and the fact that everything is brown

[00:16:12] I mean Nicholson is very much like of a piece with what Cesar Romero was doing Just a more quote unquote legitimate actor Yes I feel like there like it is like He's a movie star Right There's a pretty like scale Like a very straight line from this to

[00:16:33] Batman and Robin Sure In terms of camp Yeah But there's something about this camp though where it's like It does feel cursed Like it's a cursed or like haunted or something What's like Grand Gugniel? Like that's the thing is it's like not just like camp for camp sake

[00:16:48] Like it really is trying to like make nightmare imagery And the weird dream logic of like what is going on here The fact that the villains plot in this movie is I'm going to steal all the babies And that's the end game

[00:17:01] What's the other thing where they just couldn't They didn't even think of what his plot would be Like they didn't really have an ending There's like the like kind of semi-mentrian candidate type thing or something Right They have that for a while

[00:17:12] That's actually like the only coherent plot I would say that goes through regarding the penguin I like that he doesn't really I mean he wants to be The penguin wants to be accepted He wants to hate his parents He wants to and all that And like I hate

[00:17:27] Not hate But it's very stupid in Batman Forever And Batman and Robin Which are of course stupid movies in many ways But where you know like the Riddler and Two-Face Had that moment where we're like No we can definitely like mix our philosophy Even though we're very specific

[00:17:43] Like I like everything to be a riddle Like we definitely can run Gotham together Like this would be the worst Confederacy of two And it's the thing when Batman and Robin Where Poison Ivy is like you freeze everything Right And then all grow plants out of it

[00:17:59] And you're like you can't do that It's gonna be frozen Well that's the other thing with this movie Is then like people get this idea of like Oh you need like two villains You need two A-list villains Maybe and then maybe like a sub villain as well

[00:18:14] Right but there's a key thing to the fact that Like all three of these characters are normal people Quote unquote they don't have powers Oh sure right yeah And even in terms of weaponry Penguin is pushing that but yes yeah Right I mean he's a deformed person

[00:18:28] He's unproven Right Which one? Supposed to give me a split headache Which one? Oh god I love him But they are these three people where it's like Batman witnessed his parents being murdered Sure The penguin was given up by his parents And Catwoman lived through being murdered herself

[00:18:48] Like she went through like very bad workplace abuse Yes But that the take on this character is Catwoman also is just a 90s lady trying to Live a single life And that is trauma enough in this movie She's a post

[00:19:02] Can we talk about that for like a full hour Murphy Ballard Her fucking answering machine I was gonna say she's Murphy Brown She's trying to figure out how to make it And this crazy work But what's up with like the women In both of these movies

[00:19:13] Having stuffed animals on their bed Like Vicki Vale has like a teddy bear On her bed Sure In the first Batman It's like they're actually very very similar characters In many ways It's just like Vicki Vale doesn't get shoved out of window Right

[00:19:27] And also Selena Kyle hates herself Yeah Selena Kyle is more of like a weird flipper to gibbit Like you know cause her hair is sort of always all over She always looks so stressed out She's constantly talking to herself

[00:19:38] She's got a running narrative about how miserable her life is She does things What's the line she says She comes home Yeah what's with She's like oh she's like oh I forgot I'm not married Honey I'm home I forgot yeah yeah That's a really really great exposition

[00:19:51] I don't know one That's all I feel like that's classic Daniel Water stuff Like that very arch Heather Z Like it's okay we can break We can fuck around And they can behave in ways that don't make sense Well and here's Here's the little bit of context

[00:20:04] Cause this movie kind of is self evident In terms of how it came to be Batman's the biggest thing in the world And they're like cool Let's do Batman 2 Right Right And they hire Sam Ham I think to write a more conventional Batman 2

[00:20:17] And Burton was very hesitant to do it He was kind of like I don't really want to sequel this thing I already did Batman Right and he got And he got the sister hands off the ground really quickly These three movies are three in a row

[00:20:27] Right three years in a row Yup 90, 90, 192 And that's such a personal Personal passion project Like his No no no 89, 90, 92 Okay Yeah yeah go on I mean that's him getting to like Yeah he does Edward Scissorhands Serve his own muses Make his like autobiography You know

[00:20:43] So I think he was kind of like I don't know what's there left for me In Batman Returns And as I hear it You know Goober and Peters took a lot of credit For being like We really reigned them in

[00:20:53] I mean Tim would come in with this wackadoo shit And we let Put limits on him Right on the first Batman Right you gotta have a Robert Wall There's the famous story of That Tim Burton couldn't tell Jack Nicholson why Joker goes up The staircase at the end

[00:21:07] Right No Jack Nicholson was like Why am I doing this It makes no sense that I would climb a staircase Yeah But Goober and Peters were like They're making me do this I'm like I'll film this to end with a tower Like they were like Literally

[00:21:19] They were going through all the motions Of like what an 80's blockbuster needed to have And he was just like I don't know I'll just do my shit And I'll serve whatever they want me to do And hope that it turns out okay He makes Edward Scissorhands

[00:21:29] It's pure You know to his vision Sure And it makes a bunch of money And now it's like I don't know But Warner Bros apparently Just kind of came up and said Look you can do literally Whatever the fuck you want Right

[00:21:40] I mean this is a true blank check Where they were like Here's the deal The fans want to see Penguin Catwoman Also we will not let Billy D. Williams play Two-Face Right They asked him to Because Max Shrek was written to be Billy D. Williams Harvey Dent

[00:21:56] Harvey Dent And they were like We'll buy him out of his contract He's had a three-fixit deal The end when he's getting electrocuted is supposed to be That's what's right Right And they were like As long as you Rewrite that character So it's not Billy D. Williams anymore

[00:22:08] Yeah And as long as you include Penguin and Catwoman You can do whatever the fuck you want And he does And America revolves Yeah It's incredible that they thought That Christopher Walken would be a more Bankable Two-Face than Billy D. Williams

[00:22:23] And he's in kind of a career slump at this point Totally Yeah And also just the way that they I don't know Billy D. Williams is so much more Like the no brain appealing choice Right If you're not racist Right Yeah Right And there's no any impediment

[00:22:42] To seeing Billy D. Williams as Two-Face Christopher Walken looks like Do you remember that There was like That brand of like learning software Or it was like a math forest and stuff And there was one with like some crazy professor Like a professor math or whatever Yes

[00:22:57] He looks like that He's got the wild pair And the eyebrows And the same kind of suit and everything It's hysterical that they designed him that way And they're like Of course he's a famed industrialist Like he's a businessman He looks like a mad scientist

[00:23:09] But he's also like a fantasia of like Donald Trump Like literally Donald Trump Yes, he is 100% It is literally Donald Trump This is a Trump movie It totally is It's impossible to deny this Trump has definitely I take it back Cut that out Yeah, no, yeah, go on

[00:23:28] Go on David just said something That is very much not slanderous That we bleeped out for a long time I mean there is a part where The jig is sort of up for the penguin And then he's giving Oh yeah, it's when It's when Bruce Wayne does the

[00:23:49] The remix Of the penguin The only moment in this movie I don't like I was watching this With my husband Hummelbag Sidebar I'm gonna get back to that joke of your guys This is in a second What joke? The Hummelbag joke Oh boy Oh boy Oh girl friend

[00:24:14] Hummelbag Well played 5-Count Sorry But yeah, in the scene where he holds up the CD And I think Alfred gives him a thumbs up David was like college radio In the house Alfred's wearing his cans Yeah Anyway after that scene I guess we're going all out of order

[00:24:36] And doing a bunch of different scenes But after that one where he Then He's out and everybody is looking at each other Everyone knows that penguins can tempt for society The penguin hates Gotham it turns out And then he just starts shooting at everybody with his umbrella

[00:24:50] And then runs off and jumps into a river And I just started imagining this being Donald Trump And I just started giggling uncontrollably Like it was the stupidest, dumbest, like bad Political cartoon you could imagine And yet I was like hysterical

[00:25:05] So Donald Trump pulls a gun out of his hair And starts shooting everybody The waddle and it's like, everybody hates me But it does kind of feel like I saw that scene I was like This is probably how things would go down If they like started impeaching him

[00:25:19] Right Like he would just do this He would start shooting people with an umbrella Right, and then like run into the sewers Trump it does That's what he would do And back to his penguin friend It's just incredible What's crazy is when he was running

[00:25:33] Everyone was like this feels like Oswald Cobblepots campaign Were they? Yeah, people I never kept saying it Were they're like this feels like the People kept saying it It's like Wolf Blitzer was like Many people were saying this is Reminiscent of Cobblepots' famed 1992 campaign For Gotham Mayor

[00:25:49] David is blowing out the mic so bad It's burning This place to the ground That was how I did Wolf Blitzer Who now follows me on Twitter HumbleBrag Wolf Blitzer liked that you gave him Best Supporting Actor I wrote his scene up for Mission Impossible

[00:26:02] It's a great scene But anyway, you guys can't do the My Girlfriend HumbleBrag thing anymore I want to be clear that I've never done it You're becoming That you're becoming like The whatever, CinemaSins Podcast or something Like it's like such a How dare I get to this

[00:26:19] I need to hear this now No, I mean but not that specifically But like a Ain't it cool Ask like I haven't slept with anyone In a zillion years Looks like a bit might be heading to the rafters I'm always in favor of retiring bits To be clear

[00:26:40] Let's be clear, one bit has just been unretired That's true So there is an open spot in the rafters That's true Now let's break into this Because I did see someone online Was trying to say like I don't get the bit Can anyone explain it to me

[00:26:52] The origin of this was I had gone through a breakup I was very sad You were a sad boy I remember I listened to every single episode of your life I'm just I'm re-litigating for the audience Not for you I'm just setting a table

[00:27:04] Because this is a serious discussion now About whether or not we send this bit up to the rafters Which I'm not necessarily fighting against I'm sorry I came in today The mother of blankies came in Like with some house-claiming today Of blankies Just killed a bit

[00:27:20] Sometimes Mom's gotta clean up She's gotta teach her lessons Mother's off the leash Mom's off the leash Meow meow Per meow Mom is off the leash Okay so the initial bit was Oh now anytime you mention Your girlfriend Who you have a lovely relationship with Sure She's great

[00:27:44] And we all watch a lot of movies with So she comes up a lot because She's gross With me She's involved a lot Right, yeah That I would say humble, Brad Because the idea was I was pretending like You were insulting me By rubbing it in my face

[00:27:58] I understand that I think there was also just the general It was a moment in time I think that everyone was just saying Humble, Brad too much Okay that was part two of it Part two was Everyone was using humble, Brad Incorrectly It just became like a thing

[00:28:10] Where people just say Humble, Brad When you just said I have a job Right So the way I like to The second like any phrase In pop culture has been strangled to death I then adopt it That's how I always took the joke

[00:28:24] And then you would just always do it Because you love to drive bits into the ground Obviously Until they reach the molten core So the bit was obviously the genesis of it Is the I have a significant other But it also just applies to any bit of information

[00:28:37] That is personal Right and now it's more things like Where I'll be like Yeah, I got pizza the other day And you're like humble, Brad You know, like I say we do an official vote As to whether or not Humble, Brad goes up to the wrap

[00:28:46] Well, let's retire it I don't care I'm done I'm always down to retire You know what I say Yeah, yeah, it's retired Wow, that's it Wow, look at it Well, I'm done Bye That's a weird verbal tick That's gonna be tough for me to break

[00:28:59] Wait, you don't say it Well, I began to do it jokingly When he suddenly is like Anyway, I was hanging out with my girlfriend And I was like I get to finally mother fuck him Oh How does your girlfriend Moment of silence Feel about it

[00:29:15] You talking to Griff? About the bit Yeah She's never commented on the bit Okay She listens to the podcast Oh, wow I don't think she's ever commented On that specifically Because she's commented on many other things Oh, sure That I do on my

[00:29:31] How does anyone put up with you? Yes Yeah Oh, so I'm not in this alone This is what every one of your relationships is like With everyone, you know Yeah, my girlfriend's opinion is mostly That she can't believe She's been mentioned on this fucking podcast

[00:29:46] So many times she hates it Yeah And now that the bit has officially been retired Yeah And now that will be known as the bit The retired bit Because of course all other bits are back in play I do want to point out how

[00:30:00] Almost in a max-trek like Moving of the chess pieces Somehow the bit got retired Right when you were starting to be able to use it against me Ha ha ha Congratulations Okay, Batman Return Yeah, Batman is like this movie begins Any Batman movie should begin

[00:30:18] With a child being thrown into the river Yeah, into a river Right by Paul Reuben A child No, but before the child was thrown into the river A child is in a box At Christmas This is a Christmas movie This is a Christmas movie Without a doubt

[00:30:31] Such a great Christmas movie That opening the Warner Brothers logo with the snow Yeah Which the teaser poster was just the logo with the snow And everyone joked that it was like This is Batman doing kook Batman doing kook Really? They said kook It's mens doing kook

[00:30:46] Okay, that was the joke You were like two years old when this movie came out Right I dug into the writings of the time Yes, I was three when this movie came out I still never been able to figure out how old it was

[00:30:57] I was four when this movie came out Right, you're the same ages My girlfriend Yeah Her name be respected and honored in this room She doesn't like me to say her name on this podcast But I've said it many times

[00:31:11] So what am I supposed to do about that? Of course You could call her J-Train The blankie I don't mind speaking about my husband on this podcast Because the blankies did a whole post on the reddit About us getting married

[00:31:22] So I'm like, I guess that's public knowledge now It's canon Well, to be fair, you also did buy a four page spread In the New York Times You guys are so publicity hungry Looking for There was a thread of people trying to deduce

[00:31:36] My girlfriend's identity which was silly Because it's such a fool's errand Obviously it's TC14 Right, exactly Even listening to this podcast You know that I'm now finally In a serious committed relationship with TC14 That's the only thing we're going to talk about

[00:31:49] I was six years old when this film came out And I was very aware of it I was aware of the posters And I maybe had even seen Batman on TV Yeah, the Bat the Cat and the Penguin And the Penguin

[00:31:59] And so the first three actors I ever heard of Were Michael Keaton, Danny DeVito, Michelle Pfeiffer Because I just like committed that to memory I was like, everyone knows that Danny DeVito is the Penguin It's weird, like I was so young I guess it was three maybe

[00:32:16] But when it came out I even still had awareness of like Catwoman and the Penguin Not just like Batman is a symbol But that it seemed like a big cultural moment That Catwoman and Penguin were going to be in a movie

[00:32:29] That's like, oh these are like the two Like fucking weird iconic ones They're in the show obviously Right, which I don't think I was watching yet But I remember like literally Like on the block of my fucking preschool

[00:32:41] There was a pizza parlor that had this poster hanging up And I would walk by it And it had the same kind of effect on me as like Oh this is like the store that sells like the scary t-shirts With like the flaming skulls on them

[00:32:54] You know? Like it was like one of those things I'd walk by and kind of like I was like into how much it upset me Yeah, I mean it was What was this movie rated? It's a PG-13 Okay, because it While it is an upsetting movie

[00:33:08] I think for children Watching this back for the first time And probably like 15 years I would guess if not more Yeah it's probably more I was just like so struck by how much it was A movie for children Like despite the PG-13 movie

[00:33:24] It's reputation I think is it's scary It is scary but it's a movie for Like all of the mayhem and action in this movie Is something that like could have happened In a yeah like a Disney movie That's the other thing Scary Disney movie

[00:33:38] I feel like this movie is like a grand fairy tale And it feels like it's about fears of children Right The way it deals with scary things Feels very much like how children perceive their fears Yeah and I think the fact that it opens

[00:33:51] With the sound of like a crying infant too Right Is like very upsetting to hear when you're a child Because that's your only That's the only like human That could be more helpless than you Yeah At that point when you're eight or whatever

[00:34:06] And it makes me think of like It feels like such an off-brand Like so not a Disney move To have To depict even the sound Especially the image of a crying child I think of like Labyrinth Which has a lot of crying baby in it

[00:34:20] Which just feels so dangerous And upsetting when you're a kid to see that Because you're like That baby's really crying Like they had to make that baby sad Like Yeah And I think also And then the other movie it made me think of was City of Lost Children

[00:34:38] Which of course is such a like Burton Like I don't know it's indebted In many ways I think No I mean it is There are obviously there are things in this film that are Goring or task like the nose biting alone The nose biting is so incredible

[00:34:56] The nose biting is the scene that frightened me as a child Well it was also like the era of everybody Like talking about Mike Tyson still too Sure I thought it was funny It's hilarious It's hilarious It's hilarious Yeah When also just the guy is funny

[00:35:11] Where he's just like Yeah Yeah But that's like another thing that's like Scary about it when you're a small child Is that they like lull you into the sense of security With like the two of them laughing And it like oh it's just a bit

[00:35:25] And then there's a sudden act of violence And also all the circus imagery and stuff Which you're like as a child Like well this must be for me But then people are biting each other's noses off And this is weird sexual energy going on

[00:35:38] And it's really hard to know what to think Or like what ground to stand on And all their costumes are like scary Like Catwoman looks like a Frankenstein Yeah Well she looks like a Tin Burton illustration In the comics what are the difference between

[00:35:51] Penguin's henchman and Joker's henchman Well in the comics the kind of the same The pinchman Jesus In the comics the penguin is just like a mobster He's just like a mob guy Okay He's not like a you know run for mayor

[00:36:05] And find his parents he's just a mobster So they kind of flopped to those two characters In the movies because they like made the Joker The Joker is kind of a mobster Right Well the Joker of course we all know He's the clown prince of crime

[00:36:18] We know that But yeah you know the penguin the idea is He's like you know if you got a fat guy In a pinstripe suit A wet guy A wet fat guy He's so wet But it's also like he's Gooey But the penguin aspect of him feels more

[00:36:31] Inded to like the Dick Tracy thing Where it's like these are not super human people These are just like goons Yeah they're like macabre But they all have like the one identifying trade Where it's like he's rat face his nose is long Yeah yeah yeah Like a rat

[00:36:44] You know but like the penguin like I mean there would be the things sometimes where it's like Oh the umbrella has guns in it or whatever Yeah it's got the umbrellas There's also the freak show element Which is why his henchmen are all like circus people

[00:36:55] But that's very much key to this Yeah yeah yeah Because his henchmen have always been like Sometimes they're just like tough goon enforcers Sometimes it's like the branding thing Where he's got a bunch of guys with like matching emblems But this whole idea of him being like

[00:37:08] Oh he's like the child of the circus Who somehow took over It's so many things It's weird It's actually too many things It's like a lot of things It's like this like a Children of paradise thing You know it's also like obviously this movie is very like

[00:37:23] All of Burton's like German expressionist like Like this movie like looks like Children of Paradise It looks like cabinet with Dr. Caligari Right it looks like Nosferatu Like even like what you're saying Like fucking Christopher Walken Looks so scary in this movie He looks like a ghoul

[00:37:40] And he's supposed to be like a normal person But he looks like to speak to Emily's thing Like he looks like a child's version Of an evil businessman or whatever Yeah Right and everyone has this very But then his son just looks like an actual

[00:37:52] Like he looks like Eric Trump He's Eric Trump He's just a beefcake He's a very large son He is a large adult son Extremely large adult son And then also this is the first movie to like Be post-modern about Christopher Walken

[00:38:06] Being like you guys have noticed that his voice is weird He's a little weird fucking insane Right so before anyone started making Christopher Walken a parody of himself Christopher Walken's pretty like straightforward in this But then they have a guy next to him

[00:38:18] Just dunking on him the whole time By being like what's with this weird guy's Fucking weird voice But he's also doing this burden thing of like The very like theatrical Makeup where it's like the dark circles around The eyes that aren't even pretending to Look like something biological

[00:38:34] Right It's just a heightening of like creepiness Right Well it's like what happens when you take a bath In chemicals I guess You come out looking a little tired Yeah, right You're a tie-tied boy Yeah and you go like you know Batman, Joker, Catwoman, Penguin

[00:38:48] Or all just like people Who have bad things happen to them Yeah Like Joker was a bad person beforehand Sure But it's like he lived through this like horrible Like fiscally scarring accident You fall into a bat of X I don't feel bad for him I don't either

[00:39:03] I don't either You don't feel bad for the Joker? I don't feel bad for the Joker I think the whole point is What he's really into is like How people cope with trauma Right And like a person who's already bad Becomes worse

[00:39:15] You know Batman in this obsessive way That is just a coping mechanism That becomes good You know question mark I mean he's presented as the good guy Yeah Catwoman is like dangling on the side And like the penguin decides to just like

[00:39:30] Fully own the idea of being hated And grotesque In a totally like vindictive way But I think the key to this movie is like This is the movie after Edward Scissorhands Which is so sort of didactic in this like I'm Tim Burton, I feel weird

[00:39:46] I feel like the Scissor Man In a town of normal happy people And some of them are nice And some of them are mean But I feel like I'm a different species And I don't belong here And this is the movie that's him being like

[00:39:56] Is there such a thing as a normal person Like I think this is a movie about the concept Of there being a quote unquote normal person I keep on using quote unquote But you know like Michael Murphy Who is like the most normal actor alive

[00:40:10] A dude I love But like who Robert Altman uses Like this guy is just like so straightforward He is so solid He is like really like Unthreateningly He plays the mayor in this movie Right like charming and handsome And steady and intelligent and all of that

[00:40:24] And he plays the mayor And then he is just completely enveloped By all these like lunatics Right And like freaks Who are all fighting about what the right way To be weird is Weird is, yeah Right Yeah how to use your freakiness For ill or good Or whatever

[00:40:41] Right and Trek is like ultimately the main villain Because he's the one who's like gaining From all of their infighting Like he's the one who's like playing this all And no one's noticing that he's getting away with everything At the expense of the citizens

[00:40:56] It's very funny that this movie is ultimately right Like just about a guy's trying to chisel Money from the city and build a power plant Like it's a very mundane scheme Like the penguins like I'll kill the first borns And you know yeah go ahead

[00:41:09] Kill all the first borns Yeah deal with that But like Max Trek meanwhile is just Yeah I can stoke the fears of the people Until it benefits me more and more and more Sure you do Which is like a very I think

[00:41:23] I wish that there were more superhero movies That kind of played with that Like let the fight between the superheroes Be this sort of It's more personal then And ideal logical too Yeah and it's also like it makes sense Like it doesn't

[00:41:39] You don't have to do some huge Like end of the world leap of logic about anything Like that could If people had insane powers or Uh got Regularly dumped in vats of chemicals And what if both their moms had the same name

[00:41:54] I mean I can't imagine how people would process that I can't even imagine Do you think that would work? I think Ben hates this movie Wait Ben hates it How do you know that? I Wait what you don't like Batman Returns? Do you not like Batman Returns?

[00:42:08] Alright guys Dig it It's been so clean I haven't seen this since I think the first time I saw it Okay It's been that long 92 On a porch somewhere Yeah So maybe not It is a child As a child Yes I found it boring Kind of Really

[00:42:26] And it's not a boring movie I gotta tell you That's the one board I'm surprised to hear I found it boring Wow I don't know You know these like penguins in this movie and shit I know I know and it's silly and all that

[00:42:39] I just couldn't get into it I don't know what it was about it I would say the only thing that I really liked Is Sewer penguins And that There's no real justification for it But I like got on board of that The justification is It's like the zoo

[00:42:52] The zoo is all down That's the only justification Right Because of chemical But I like that That is the thing that Fucking chemical For me is good Right How did not every child who saw this movie And I believe every child of our generation

[00:43:05] Did see in this movie Sure Yeah How did we just not run like Dupont And everything out of town When we became voting citizens Like Yeah We've been raised to fear chemical plants So badly It's true Also Sonic the Hedgehog Like Fern Golly Fern Golly

[00:43:23] Why are we not more woke about the environment? Well that's because we associated with We're like wow That's kid stuff Right So there's not really a A man made of a cloud of chemicals Who's terrorizing the last rain forest Right What's his name again? The Tim Curry character

[00:43:39] Yeah The villain of Fern going I forget Look at up David No that is The other The other key piece to this movie Ending up as insane as it is And we've mentioned them offhand At least Daniel Waters Who wrote Heathers Which was this like Spexist Hexis

[00:43:56] That's his name Hexis Oh in Fern Golly Yeah baby Let's see that in a second That's pretty cool These are fucking cloud of gas With a mean face Who are your favorite cloud villains? If you had to rank Galactus cloud The nothing Hexis Parallax and Green Lantern

[00:44:20] These are a lot of bad villains Are they great? Yeah All the great cloud men What I was going to say is Go ahead please Heathers Which was like this sort of like Lightning rod Spex script That Daniel Waters was like I'm not going to

[00:44:38] Sell the rights because I will only let this movie be directed By Stanley Kubrick That was his stance when he wrote it And it's this movie where he poured Like all of his fucking anger In the world Into like one script That's like this very odd

[00:44:54] Like tangenty over stuff It is the most Baroque Of the teen comedy Yeah certainly Yeah I think And I was talking about this for other reasons I was just like I feel like the last one That was really allowed to be that Written, you know Was Cruel Intentions

[00:45:13] One of my favorite movies But it has that same thing where It's like every line is a line Yeah, where you say No one talks this way These aren't even remotely teenagers But who cares It happens more in TV now I feel like But yeah

[00:45:28] And so when I Remembered that he had done this too It works slightly differently When you have Danny DeVito Just yelling All of those extremely written lines For example Blast your Rajanist zone sky high I mean you can imagine One of the heathers saying that

[00:45:49] Sure and what you're saying is It works differently in that This time it works perfectly Yes exactly No it is just It's such a weird choice That someone they would never let Near a film like this today And he was just allowed to pick

[00:46:02] Whoever the fuck he wanted And Sam Ham had written This Batman 2 script that was more conventional He still gets the story credit I think just because of a couple elements But this really was a movie that was like Written by one person Who was not someone

[00:46:14] Who ever worked within the studio System again Yeah it's true I think because of this And it's also a film that is like What you're saying about how you wish War superhero movies were like this It's like it has no conventional Narrative structure Like it's not building towards

[00:46:31] The same sort of inciting events or conflicts It's just like a lot of stuff happens And that's kind of why I found myself Just being distracted I mean most of this movie Just was like looking at my phone Because it's too much stuff I just couldn't

[00:46:45] There's no through line to follow in it But I have the bigger problem with that Because at least when there's no through line To follow in Batman Returns There's something insane is going on on screen Like penguins are wearing hats Or whatever Correct And in Batman 1

[00:47:02] I feel like there are moments Very long periods of time Where I have no idea what is happening They're just letting Nicholson run And they aren't cutting a single second Of his performance I don't think And that's when I really start to wonder

[00:47:16] Because I'm like what are we doing again Why are we here But there are scenes like that in this movie At this point It will have been last week's episode But David you and I just got out of glass Like we saw an advanced screen in a glass

[00:47:27] And came right here to record And we're a couple glass holes here We just saw a glass or piece Have you seen glass? I didn't go Today was the first screen I believe You haven't broken the glass yet I'm not I haven't seen any of these new

[00:47:39] The Shyamalan Assange I haven't seen the Shyamalan Assange The Blumhouse Shams I'm not necessarily here for it But whatever I'm glad you guys haven't had a good time No I mean how's that Wait did you like it? Yeah, it's great Okay

[00:47:56] No one else likes it to be split I like splits I don't like splits Splits great And this really worked for me But I will say I think there is a commonality Between Batman Returns and Glass In terms of like These two guys being like

[00:48:08] Cool I can do anything I want to do Yes I'm just going to make a movie That's sort of like a free-wheeling Like free associative Essay on the idea of heroes and villains And whether those archetypes Mean anything And how society is trying to reign us in

[00:48:25] And just work against every fucking expectation Of what this movie should be Or how a movie works Okay let's talk about Batman Returns Let's talk about Batman Returns But I think my point here is They both come out of that sort of like Now you have a brand

[00:48:39] You have a director who has I get that he's off the leash We've made that clear Yes yes he got to do whatever he wanted He made Batman The man made Batman He gets to do whatever he wants Right and he gets to do it with Batman

[00:48:53] Which is the crazy thing Right well not only that They want him to do whatever he wants Because it worked last time And it keeps on getting bigger And people love this Burton thing Whatever the fuck it is He made a Scissor Man movie And that did well

[00:49:04] People thought it was romantic Teenagers thought it was romantic It was like a Teen Idol movie Can make sense of why he's connecting Sure Yeah well go on Emily hit me No I was just thinking about Edward's his hands Which I haven't seen in a long time

[00:49:23] But I was kind of thinking about This is a theory that I have But I can't really back it up And I certainly haven't seen enough Of Tim Burton's later movies To really be able to back it up You haven't peregrined yet I have not peregrined

[00:49:36] You're not one of the extraordinary children I have very small eyes Your eyes are small Your shadows are light You've never been to one to land I went to your wedding You were regular bride Not a corpse bride Very much alive Your weenie is unfranked

[00:49:57] Okay please cut that Al Frankenweenie Is that anything Al Frankenweenie He's gotta go Sure But I have a theory That Tim Burton Perhaps understands women The least Of any Of any people I don't know if that's a theory I think that's written in the sky Like yes 100%

[00:50:27] But I think it's waters that Like that So Catwoman is an incredible character And I think she's become like this sort of It-Me icon for a lot of Women who have grown up Who saw her as a child And then are like

[00:50:40] Now I get what she was going through in that But it is a I think the only reason it works on that level Is because of waters and And Pfeiffer obviously But I don't think I think that's why it feels remarkable In this movie

[00:50:56] Because I can't think of another time You had like A female character Even in an early heightened sense Yeah Who felt Like A person Oh I disagree with you Beetlejuice Beetlejuice to me is the Kind of I think that's the I think she's great

[00:51:13] I think she's great in it But I feel like That's about it I also think Gina Davis But also she's a girl She's a girl She's a And I think it's easier to write Like a kid or an adolescent Versus like a woman I know but I love

[00:51:26] I love Katherina Herra and Beetlejuice Like Beetlejuice to me Is the one that Beats it I love Beetlejuice Okay I mean that's fair But that's why this was a theory But But everything else It's not a theory With all other perspectives Yeah

[00:51:42] Like if you're looking like Ed Wood Which is a movie I adore I think it's a wonderful movie But doesn't really have Any women of like Dimension in it Just good It's her Jessica Parker Is like a shrew She's just there to Put your shark head

[00:51:55] Is an unrealistic saint She's like a Mary Sue She's like a nice Right She's Winona and Edward Scizare Yeah Winona and Edward Scizare Hand to that Which was written by a woman But yeah Like A beautiful little ice cold And they're always blonde Like I don't know

[00:52:10] I feel like This is the thing It's like little corpse boy Lord of Darkness Tim Burton is like How can I communicate How I don't understand women I'll make them all blonde And like angelic And the opposite of Willowy Yeah I don't know I mean I like

[00:52:27] I'm the same as you guys I went through a very long period Of like really being into Burton Especially that early stuff I like had Burton on burger And it was like one of the first film books I ever read Like It was really into all that

[00:52:39] But I think The Tough points have become more clear to me And besides just the common accusations Of whatever it's all just lux And it's just like Kind of a shtick that he's just playing With over and over and over again Like that

[00:52:54] I don't care about as much But I think that I think that There are parts where his Unwillingness to engage with humanity Is more of a problem than it is at other times Well right And then I also I think And we'll talk about it more and more

[00:53:10] But the budgets and the CGI Just get them further and further away from it You know that's an issue Like this is his last fully tactile movie Of this size I guess so So this is always a little Tactile Yeah because more half and half

[00:53:26] Mars attacks all the aliens or CGI I think I remember I remember liking Sweeney Todd Sweeney Todd's great I saw it in the theaters And then that's it I like Sweeney Todd a lot But that's also a very CGI movie I mean he wants to do that

[00:53:40] 300 style with no sets And instead it's like a couple of rooms But that's a good movie But it's working with Yeah You know A story that's not as well Yeah See for me What I like about this film Is I think Sway-nay This feels like

[00:53:57] Maybe the only one of his movies Where he's trying to figure out His own obsessions Like this feels to me like Maybe the only one of his movies Where he's not just Like jamming on his fetishes Right And he's trying to maybe Get to the core

[00:54:11] Oh it is very much like Just somebody sitting on the couch Like talking to their analysts Right And like an I mean an analyst And not like a therapist Right Let's draw symbols out here Yeah Because rather than like The Edward Scissorhand model Of the Burton film

[00:54:26] Where it's just like Poor me I'm the victim You don't get how sad and lonely I am Let me make a movie about how I'm A normal hero Well he made it That's like the epitome Yeah He made Hot Topic The movie I mean they're ripping him off

[00:54:39] Or whatever But like that's the It's the ur-text for so much But then people go back to Now and they go Here's a script It's perfect for you It's about an outsider Right Who the world doesn't understand Right Whereas this movie is just Like no one feels good

[00:54:52] Right No Right Except maybe the mayor As you say Right And he's like dissecting Where like Michael Murphy starts complaining About Max Shrek And how much he hates him One insincere bastard Yeah And it's just like Well if you're so virtuous Then why the fuck are you like

[00:55:09] Sitting in this guy's pocket Like everyone's either lying To themselves Or to somebody else Yeah You know Grant Morrison Has this rant that he went on The comic writer Where he's like Gotham makes no sense It's stupid Yeah The city makes no sense Who would live there

[00:55:25] It's the worst It's like Overrun with crazy Super villains And gangsters So many alleys Yeah It's all alleys Right And so when he I think he was writing Batman He was like I'm trying to make Gotham Seem like a real place Because it's insane Right

[00:55:41] But I don't think that Anytime I watch the movies I'm like Man if I was like 22 I'd be like I'm gonna live in Gotham Like Gotham's crazy Yeah It's the place you live And you're like Hey man Like I did I lived in Gotham

[00:55:55] Also she has a nice apartment She's got a nice apartment But I don't think she even needs She's got She could just be on the floor She's got some neon art Like she's like Do we okay And many cats Hell here Can we talk about

[00:56:07] The plot of Batman Return? Yeah But also this This whole weird thing of How? Yeah No Because it's a straight Basics Basics Catwoman in the comics Has always just been A lady who dresses up Like a cat She is a cat burglar Right It's just her branding

[00:56:25] Here they went back to the Cat thing For Anne Hathaway too Which is boring Yes Well I like Anne Hathaway in those movies But obviously Those are those Nolan movies Are right Everyone's gotta be a person And super literal But they're not even Whatever

[00:56:38] It's not a good movie In particular I think Anne is Is fun in that movie Sure she's fun She's fun She gives good performance In that movie But I think this is His weird like I think this is one of the things I would find very upsetting

[00:56:52] As a child when I watched This movie And once again in the like You know The reason my children's stories Used to be scary Cause kids like to be scared They wanna grapple With these things That seem too big to comprehend The idea that she is someone

[00:57:05] Who literally survives Being murdered Right That she's not someone Who survives a murder attempt Right That she fully dies And comes back to life And is just like Cat flicker Right and now Cat flicker a lot Right and there's not even Any attempt to make

[00:57:20] Any literal sense of that I know But this is the thing You freak me out when I was like Yeah This is the thing that's incredible About it now is like She's thrown out the window By her boss Right Who was also like Verbally abusive to her

[00:57:34] Right because she spoke up And he started to think She might be a threat To his status Right Cause she knew about The chemical plant Not being a chemical plant Or whatever But when she comes back And then they like You know it's kinda great

[00:57:46] They do the whole Coming back to the apartment Thing again This time with her Is this corpse ride Basically Hell here She drinks her milk Right she drinks her milk Which is This whole sequence I feel like I've watched More times than the rest Of the movie

[00:58:00] Cause I feel like They have the clip of it online And it's just Very very fun But she The thing that Makes her snap And not just be undead Is hearing the message Like on her machine That's an advertisement For perfume That's saying If you wear this perfume

[00:58:17] Like your boss might Invite you On like a sexy date And then that's when She screams and like Right Like Realizes she was murder Her sewing machine And it's like I'm gonna sew really hard I do love that she gets Out her sewing machine But that's the thing

[00:58:31] This movie is like We don't have to explain How she came back to life We do have to explain That she sewed her own costume Yeah We need that explained Yeah Go on I'm sorry No but I think That feels more real Like the moment

[00:58:44] Even though she's like A woman who was Brought back to life By cats licking her The thing of her snapping Because of this dumb ad Feels That is a moment of reality I think in this otherwise It's like the rest The rest of the sequence Again

[00:59:00] Was watching with my husband He was going in and out But he was Like wait Why is she doing this? Yeah What's going on? He had missed the part With the message The message recording Everything But it is like It's like As an actor

[00:59:15] I imagine you would be Like what's my motivation In that success moment Pay attention Yeah It's a But I don't know I really appreciated that bit Well I think That sort of The key to the whole thing is Like She's this person Who was like Miserable

[00:59:33] Felt like a failure Also Hated herself Hated herself So paid I think that's important Because that feels different That makes her character Immediately feel different Within the context Of a superhero movie Yeah And Not only anybody Up until that point But honestly Since then

[00:59:51] When is the last person In a superhero movie Who like hates themselves? Never happens Villains are always Like joyous In their miserableness Yeah And the heroes Even if It's Peter Parker Who's like Like What would you like? Yeah I'm a genie I want to date Something good girl

[01:00:11] Tell me Peter Parker What's the date of girl What's that? Spoilers for the nice Spider-Man movie Fucking twisted Burr Yeah Twisted But yeah I feel like there's never That issue of self-doubt Is you never have the space Of the real estate to explore No, and not just self-doubt

[01:00:31] But someone who actively hates themselves Yes Now a lot of that is I think I mean it's very telling The thing she says We're like honey I'm home All right if I had anyone To come home to Right She hates herself because she feels like

[01:00:44] She's failing against the model of what a woman Should be a society selling it to her Because it's the early 90s Right And the perfume ad And the boss wanting you All these things She feels like But even besides that She hates herself on like This is

[01:00:58] Maybe I'm just like I'm just like I'm just like I'm just like I'm just like I'm just like I'm just like I'm just like I'm just like I'm just like I'm just like I'm just like I'm just like It's like Like making fun of everything she just said

[01:01:13] Right And that's the same Right Oh I hope you like You know just like Self mocking in a way That is like Again Like that's dark Yeah Like that's a dark thing to see somebody do And you definitely almost never see that happen

[01:01:26] Even with a person who's bad Or sad In a superhero movie Like yeah I guess my My re-us just that All the things she's criticizing herself Being so hard on herself for doing Are A failure to be Whatever she thinks she should be

[01:01:40] That's a stupid thing to say I should have said this instead This is what my home life should be like This is what my work life should be like This is how I should be And then after she has Literally murdered Yes She's just like

[01:01:52] I don't know nothing fucking matters anymore Right She's liberated by Right She's murdered and then here's an ad Telling her that she's not wearing the right perfume And it's just like Fuck all of this Yeah Right I literally got murdered Trying to be

[01:02:05] Whatever you're asking me to be Right And then they add in This weird nine lives thing Sure Where it becomes like cool I could just die nine more times So let me do whatever the fuck I want Yeah You know, she becomes like a nihilist and a Heed-ness

[01:02:18] And is just trying to like Live the best version of her life Yeah Which is being a weird Freaking Stein cat lady Sure She likes cats She goes back to work She goes back to work Why? Which I love To fuck with Meg Shripp

[01:02:34] She wants to spook him That's a joy That's a joy for her Spooking him Like Selena I can't do You must have forgotten what happened to you Yeah I think he says Selena wow What was Christopher Walken? Cat woman What are the guys of Penguin

[01:02:53] Is Kevin Pollock here? Batman Now while that's all happening Like Christopher Walken is slipping into Randy Newman Very quickly You can see it You've got a friend in me She's got a friend in Oswald Cobble Pots She does Who's a flippered man Unlikely allies

[01:03:14] He's a flippered man who was thrown into the sewers And he ended up of course in the abandoned zoo portion of the zoo They were both sewers I'll reverse lead to the abandoned zoo With also with all those hydraulic lifts that Rise squarely I got it

[01:03:27] Someone on the reddit said this but it's true Like I love that Burton has so much respect for the long Opening credit sequence always Yeah Yes The prominent credits for everybody He loves it Nothing's happening on screen And also setting a tone

[01:03:42] I mean he knows he's got like good L's pins Music obviously big overture That feels like I mean all Most of superhero movies now have that though They have like a Oh no most superhero movies do it at the end Cause you need to Have your mid-credits scene

[01:03:58] That's true But you know they had them at the beginning They had the big I think they do them at the beginning For the X-Men movies Because it's like going through the DNA and shit X-Men is an apocalypse that has the time tunnel With the swastikas Yes

[01:04:14] Is that a apocalypse? It blows apart Yeah that's The swastika that appears on screen When it says 20th Century Fox It's immediately a swastika I've never thought about that That's so incredible So the penguin, yeah he ended up in the sewers

[01:04:29] He's been chilling out there for what do we figure 30 years 20 years They say 33 years I think it's like 15 I just love that thing I am the same age as the penguin Yeah right So I'm 32 I'm getting to penguin We are both I'll be penguin aged in about 4 months

[01:04:43] We are penguin aged together in mind Penguin and Jesus Oh right The Moses kind of thing It was totally a Moses Him going down the trash river He's like Pizarro Moses And the opening of the movie is All Max Shrek Which I'm sure audiences were like

[01:05:00] I can't wait for Batman Return It's the first 10 minutes Max Shrek Right It's Chris we're walking having board meetings Against Michael Murphy as the mayor Is there a reason that their mascot is like A Felix cat like logo Besides the fact that she's going to be cat woman

[01:05:15] I have no idea but it's the only reason Yeah I love it It's very strange It's so great Yes it's great You don't like it? You don't like it? No Fair enough He hates it I mean I gotta say I can't argue with that logic

[01:05:28] Imagine if like General Electric was like Our logo should be a revolver Our logo should be a revolving cat head statue It's like perpetually grinning Our logo should be whatever Superhero the assistant to our CEO Will turn it I saw this Asbury Park character

[01:05:46] Let's make it a cat but as gruesome Let's make that our brand You're right It's sort of a Coney Island freak kind of logo Totally It's great Anyway so Max Shrek gets kidnapped And then Penguin's down there And he's like of course I look at everyone's poop

[01:06:01] And I know everything about you I also am a millionaire apparently For being a sewer man That's crazy Money works differently in the sewers Ben You should know this I just love that That's the opening gambit Very different Well also the opening of this movie

[01:06:19] Is like fully aligning itself with Penguin In the way the first one does with Batman Well it makes you think that you're watching a movie About the penguin Right We kind of are And then it is more of a cowboy movie The latter half It's never about Batman

[01:06:33] No But they mirror the thing in the beginning Of the first Batman Where there are all the newspaper headlines Where they're like Is this true? Half Batman Like there's this sense that people Been whispering about the penguin And they don't know whether or not

[01:06:46] There's like any fact to it And rather than it being like an embellished Version of the real guy The real guy's ten times worse Than what they're thinking about He does look like the sketch of the Batman Right The circus found his baby bassinet Right

[01:07:01] And they raised him To be a sideshow attraction And then he sort of convinced them all To move to the sewer with him And lead an uprising Because he wants to know his bloodline He wants to know where he came from He needs a crew

[01:07:17] In order to help him find out Who his mom and dad were You know the best part of this movie is It's just the penguin Sitting in the hall of records Reading books For certificates And Batman's Batman looking through the window Like what the fuck

[01:07:34] Christmas Eve and you're like Looking at a coil pen I mean he's at the library I won't disturb I love the penguin so much The best Just imagine Imagine now Both of them should have won Oscars Oh god So Shrek helps him Find his parents

[01:07:58] He got a blackmail Shrek Because he's got the reconstructed Shredded papers Right Lot of tape and laying on it Spare time Like right? Like that's Yeah And I guess Selina is sort of in the background Batman's done nothing And then there's that scene Like 20 minutes in

[01:08:18] When the Red Triangle gang Is doing something When they You know where Pat Hingles Like turn on the signal Right And you see the signal And you see the shot That we love We both love so much But the background on my phone Michael Keaton just

[01:08:30] Has been sitting Bruce Wayne has been sitting in a chair Just waiting for the signal He has nothing else And the lights are off He's an empty vessel of a human being And he finally sees He's like oh great great Get to go yes But that's minute 15

[01:08:42] Batman proper enters Minute 20 And you have him fighting Some of the guys And he says one word When Commissioner Gordon is like Where are you going And he's like elsewhere Like he says like whatever I counted There's literally He says one word

[01:08:57] Then you have a couple more scenes Of like quick glimpses of him Sitting at a computer Looking at something Not saying anything And minute 40 He's like Alfred What's up with this This is cold And the first line that Batman Says in his own movie

[01:09:09] Is just complaining about it It's a viscous swath It's supposed to be cold Right You're great Yeah Alfred keep on Relitigating the first movie Which I love Also they like go into Vicky Vale In a way that I don't feel like They need to Like I mean

[01:09:26] I guess the last shot of the first Movie When she's like oh I guess He's never gonna come meet me in the cab Like that was the end of their relationship But Yeah Yeah But then the other thing is That like That's like the one piece

[01:09:40] Of real fan service Is that like everyone Fucking complained about the fact That Alfred let Vicky Vale Into the back Right So they felt like Tim there's only one thing You need to address in this movie Right Otherwise audiences are gonna be Are you being serious? Yeah

[01:09:53] Fans were like so fucking Really I mean that doesn't surprise me Alfred would never do that Like it's a job to like Protect the sanctity And the secrecy of the back He really likes Vicky He does like Vicky You think she's a nice lady

[01:10:03] She is a nice lady You can never trust a girl Alfred's a fucking cock Like that is People were like Like protesting Yeah In the streets Yeah I remember Because I was four months old Your parents took you to A Babbim protest rally

[01:10:19] And made a clever sign for you And put it on Instagram I'll tell you If anyone was furious About Vicky Vale being Allowed to the back cave Do your dad I mean this is unbelievable Alfred let Vicky Vale Into the back What are these guys thinking?

[01:10:34] If my dad was famous I would be on Mattoon It's so true I wish your dad was president That is unbelievable I love you dad What was I gonna say So yeah Selena gets shoved out of When it turns into Catwoman Is there any more plot?

[01:10:51] The plot is stuff It's all these people Like bouncing off each other There's that mayor plot I guess that's the sort of Spine of the story But then there's also Bruce Wayne Falling in love with Selena Kyle I guess I guess so That's the only other thing

[01:11:05] He does in this movie Yeah I like that they suss each other Out pretty quickly That scene at the Shrek Ball Where they just look at each other And they're like Oh right of course Right Obviously Shrek Like the movie It's great to see them Shrek a lot

[01:11:24] Jesus His office His office is like The outset of a Shake Shack Is that your Shrek? Are you about to show us something Or leave it on the notes The Shrek department store You mean Shake Shrek? Yeah Good Shrek Shrek $2 But yeah there's so many

[01:11:44] To go back to the camp thing Because the party scene Made me remember this I think one of the images Is just embedded in my memory From this movie Is when the floor blows up And the penguin comes up In the rubber ducky boat

[01:11:57] The inexplicable rubber ducky boat I love the rubber ducky But there's something about That aerial shot of him A penguin man Go on Riding a duck In a summer blockbuster In a summer blockbuster In a fancy grown up party Yes Where adult things are happening Sure

[01:12:24] It feels like The only thing I could write I was trying to pinpoint The feeling of it It feels like a tarot card It feels like a lost tarot card Also he is a short little man He's a tiny man Why is everyone just like

[01:12:36] Oh no we must just stand here And do nothing Also what are they What are they like They're just screaming Because he's ugly He's crazy looking I mean he has black goo Coming out of his mouth His parents bought him an arcade He's kind of handsome

[01:12:57] He's got a nice smile He's doing his hair He into that His teeth His teeth The golem teeth When the flashbacks And the load of the rings When he's eating the fish And he becomes bad And they're like I'm eating the fishmig I'm sorry let me just

[01:13:14] We wears Victorian pajamas Excuse me Let me pause He's still wearing the outfit He had on as a baby Which is now stretching Tattered to its ends Can I just pause the conversation For one second All four of us find it attractive That he's constantly spitting up

[01:13:29] Black bile We talked about how we all Secretly want to fuck Beetlejuice We all like the black bile That's dripping out of his lips Spoiler alert to skip to the end But when he is like Facedown They make a point to make sure

[01:13:44] That the black bile is coming out Of his mouth in clouds As the penguins look down at him In the water It's my favorite part Of the whole movie Is when the penguins march Into the sea And they're like And imagine them just thinking

[01:13:58] Like so ends the reign of the penguin Like ups and downs He made us a lot of sewer money Got us involved in some heady skiing Got a little crazy at the end there At the end there I don't know He might have overshot But all great men

[01:14:14] But he represented our interests He was gonna make the whole city cold I love colds He throws that out And they're like Ah, I don't know Like it doesn't come up again He like crack up the AC Like my nightmare You're a lunatic

[01:14:33] Oh, it's my, yeah, it's perfect I am the penguin Probably in my office I'm the penguin We're blowing up the mic so much Because we have to do the Do the penguin Davido voice This is why this movie is like Getting slapped in the face Repeatedly though

[01:14:47] It's just like all these Very long lines That Davido is doing That he's just yelling His delivery choice And all of them It's like all guitar solos Yeah, space surprise Right And as Ben said Like there's the scene Where the director strikes like

[01:15:01] I guess I'll make you the mayor Wow And they bring him up Right And there's the scene He lures him up with these Candidate I mean he talks specifically about How he wants to just grote people We'll get to that We gotta get to that

[01:15:17] You know, lures him up with a fish He's half eating a fish Then he bites someone's nose He holds a raw fish in two hands And then bites into the stomach So the fish guts are just pouring out He's like not done eating his fish

[01:15:31] So he's like very confused He's only gone to the fish He's a mouthful In that entire scene Where they bring him into the camping office And they're talking like branding with him But he's not sure whether to keep eating the fish Or not That's his main concern Right

[01:15:44] It's incredible Then he bites someone's nose And blood spurts everywhere And after that everyone's like Anyway, like to continue with our conversation Like they are like My god this man's a freak Only when they hear The soundtrack where he's like Gatham's Malouzes They're like What? What a scandal

[01:16:02] So I want to actually This is making me think of another question I had And be honest And don't answer quickly Sure He's led us Joker Dino's Penguin Dino's Penguin I mean you said think about it But I thought about it for years Right

[01:16:21] I mean as far as agents of chaos go I like the Joker better I mean I But I love the Penguin It's a tough choice Because I dislike everything that the Joker has come to represent In online discourse Very annoying Well he did it for the lulls

[01:16:36] I think yes I mean you just wanted some men If I don't know if you've heard But someone just want to watch the world burn Yeah It's a weird flex but okay What's up? I'm sorry What's going on? Well Joker is a little bit Toasted Oh, okay

[01:16:56] Thank you But I really do like that performance Despite everything There are moments in that performance That are just sublime And you can't No matter the context No matter what happens It's a wonderful performance But as far as like An agent of chaos

[01:17:10] As far as like making you feel Like you're losing your mind While you watch the movie See that I'm on board with When you're watching Dino You're like I can't believe this is allowed Your skin's like crawling With He's pledging your side I'm watching a movie

[01:17:24] A charismatic movie star This is a very good performance in a movie Right, yeah And also like The Joker But yeah The flip side of that Is the Joker genuinely He's just like Right I do just want it to be crazy all the time

[01:17:36] The Penguin is a little more like He's upset because he's Penguin Well even think about He's got that going on Think about the difference Anytime you're looking at him You're like this guy does not Like that he is a penguin Think about the difference between Henchman

[01:17:51] Like the Nolan's Joker It's really scary to see clowns Shooting at people At this movie They're just doing jazz And just kind of dancing around And you're like Am I scared? What is happening? I mean that's the classic old Batman thing Henchman who just right

[01:18:06] Like Mr. Freeze's Henchman Have to wear like Eskimo suits at all times Like even in the summer And they're just mind Like Vincent Scavelli He has some organ-grinding rules They're not fighting Batman They're just kind of Standing waving their head around Yeah, yeah, yeah They're like Riding motorcycles

[01:18:21] And wearing skill to hands Ah! Dude, they're good performers No, they're not I don't like They are good performers No way to say They got showbiz in their blood And they just want to give us a nice show That's true Oh god Let me say some things

[01:18:36] I like about the penguin, okay? Go on Flip her hands So there's the Trump thing Right? Where it's like Here's a rich guy Born rich Son of a rich man Never figured out how to be high class And also like Always neglected by his parents Right, right, right

[01:18:52] His father hates him Mommy, daddy Right, he's entitled to all this money But like all he wants The way that people talk about Trump Where they're like All he ever wanted was to be a celebrity He wanted celebrities to like him Sure He performatively dips everything in gold

[01:19:04] Because he thinks that's what a fancy person Is supposed to do Like he's not even new or rich But he can't do it in a way to get the others It's the Malini joke That he's a hobo Talking about what he would do if he was rich Right

[01:19:15] He's Donald Trump Right And so like What's Penguin's driving force is I'm trying to figure out like where I came from And why I was thrown away And then like Is there a way where I can now affect the role

[01:19:27] And resell myself as the kind of fancy leader That people want me to be Where when he can't do it within like Polite society of Gotham It becomes the Mayoral campaign Well, and the adoration of the people Quickly fills in the void too That's the point

[01:19:41] Like Shrek is like I can use him to my own means Because he'll be in my pocket And he'll give me the tax cuts I want Of course Right, right And then he will just love the fact That they're able to draw crowds

[01:19:50] And they don't care how grotesque he is But Because they've gotten into the idea That he represents the people Fuck, he has one fatal flaw Which is Anytime he sees a woman He's like Oh, I want to fucking fuck you Just like that Literally

[01:20:03] Like I want to squeeze your boobs right now You're giving me all the signals Like that's what he's like He gets Around any woman He gets so angry when Calwoman friends zone him There's like an aggressive friend zone scene This way where he's like

[01:20:15] I'm so angry I'll fly away And he's like On an upside down umbrella He starts like Turning into a helicopter Yeah But the one thing at this movie That is totally fantastical Is the idea that when they play the tape back That the people actually turn on them

[01:20:28] Right, right Because as we've seen in real life Oh, he's not what he appears to be Which is A little tankwit Right But what he's speaking to Much like Trump is just like The anger of the people who are just like This isn't fair Yeah

[01:20:41] So he would find some way in reality To warp that to be like You'd be yelling at you too if you were me Yeah, it's well Penguin tells it like it is Right But then this movie takes this crazy third act twist Which talking about where he ranks

[01:20:54] In like the pantheon of villains Sure, sure This is a thing that no other movies do Okay You have like the like Oh, I'm just an agent of chaos I just want things to go crazy Mm-hmm You have the like

[01:21:04] This is in order for me to steal all the money I'm Mr. Freeze I need these diamonds Yeah, I need diamonds It's like all it's a heist It's a theft type thing Diamonds power his free suit You know this Which is the dr. Octopus thing of like

[01:21:16] I need to steal these cores To build my experiment Right Or you have the people who are just like I want power I want to be in charge Or revenge Right, sure Like Catwoman is more like a personal But that's what I like about penguin Is that like

[01:21:29] He's on the sort of power quest But it was driven by other people And then once that falls apart He's like You know what? Just fuck everybody Right I'm out for revenge against normal people I'm in a pointed way Just trying to get back at

[01:21:41] Everyone in the world My end game is just to murder people Yeah And this like vindictive thing of Talk about things that are upsetting to children I'm just gonna steal all the babies Yeah Which is like biblical Yep You know like Like put blood on the door

[01:21:57] Like all the first one The plagues are coming It's the plagues It's so upsetting And there was Yeah, there was famously this thing where They just didn't know what to do with the last act Right Yeah, when they were running it

[01:22:09] Right, but I like that it just becomes Like he just is pure evil Sure Like there's no like end That he's trying to get to There's no game for him It's not even that he philosophically likes The idea of people descending into chaos Right He just wants like

[01:22:26] To fucking make people miserable Well and I feel like a lot of Superhero movies kind of do this And other movies too Do this in some way Where you have somebody who's like Maybe There's some shade of redeemability With them They are able to experience

[01:22:40] Acceptance or love or something Yeah And then when they lose it They go all the way Sure Which is, it's like that But I feel like I feel like Yeah, not, I want to say it's political But not in like a Like it's commentary on politics

[01:22:54] Like even though we can kind of Read that today like that But I mean it is political And that it's like I feel like it speaks more to like Systems And people And like It's more of a sociological thing Than like a One man's journey type of thing

[01:23:08] Which is what I think this movie is all about Yeah And there is the element of Like as you said Like if Phil's a void in him They dress him up nicer People start to take him seriously As like a man of high society

[01:23:20] He still is like so bruised by like Like cat woman You are giving me all the signals Like he's still like Is miserable Like he never gets happy He gets like a little brush of it And he needs more and more and more And more and more

[01:23:32] And so at the end It's just like There's no fucking way this ever works Like there's no way I'll ever feel normal I'll ever feel like I got my fair shake Like I'm on even footing with the people Of Gotham with their chubby little digits Chubby digits

[01:23:49] So a couple things about this One in terms of Batman Not really having anything to do in this movie Famously His plot line was supposed to be Largely centered around Robin Right They cast Marlon Wayne's as Marlon Wayne's playing Robin And it was like

[01:24:07] There would be so much stuff though He took in a street orphan Who then was like fixing his car And then he started to train him And then at the end he became Robin And they were like too much too much too many plot lines

[01:24:18] We already essentially have four main characters By removing that Batman just becomes like the love interest Which is kind of interesting And then occasionally just a piece of iconography For people to react strongly to I like that his biggest action set piece

[01:24:31] In the movie is the penguin controlling him With a remote control Like the biggest Batman action sequence In the film is Batman with zero agency Looking like a terrorist I love the way the tech looks too It looks great And the weird pen car

[01:24:49] That his car turns into Even just the exaggerated nature of how he's controlling it Oh that all theme park right there That it's like a point operating with Like supermarket thing I think all of that is rad Marlon Wayne's got paid more money

[01:25:03] Than any of us ever will in our life To not be in this movie And merchandise spotlight They made a Robin action figure That looks like Marlon Wayne's But they painted it white Because it was late enough in production That they were just like oh fuck

[01:25:16] So there is a Robin action figure Everyone was like why are the Robin toys Robin's not in the movie It's the suit design that they had built for him And it's by 1992 Manufacturing Center is not a super accurate likeness But it notably has a high top fade

[01:25:31] It is a white peach color Robin with a high top fade Trying to find it Is it this one? Is it this one? Correct Oh wow Yeah if you can find a close up of the face It's like Marlon Wayne's Yeah I know you can tell

[01:25:47] Remember when nothing had to make sense though With superheroes Well that's the thing These movies were for children Like you say even though they made lots of money And critics had to pay a little attention to them They were goofy movies for kids

[01:26:00] And when Joel Schumacher takes it In the even goofier direction No one was like what a shame Everyone was just like yeah it's not a big sense That's logical end point Powering us through with diamonds He looks like kid in play But also like fucking like

[01:26:16] Rumpelstiltskin doesn't make any sense Like all these things are just Speaking to like these elemental fears Yeah Which is I don't know I like that about these More even though I feel like They don't They really

[01:26:32] The thing that annoys me is not that they don't make any sense I think it's more The feeling of watching them Aside from like kind of cool Nightmarish imagery But I'm talking about all the mayhem And all the insane action stuff Feels I think Just too disorienting

[01:26:51] For me now Like it's just not It doesn't feel like A child like nightmare to me Nor does it feel like a competent action scene It just feels like a lot of like And I feel like Anytime it slows down Anytime there's like a conversation between two characters

[01:27:09] It is properly deranged In a way that I can read and follow But all of his style of action I also want to maybe float that Tim Burton sucks at action directing Not his strong suit Not his strong suit I mean I just can't think of action

[01:27:24] He would never I don't think he would probably say he would He would But I think like it's sort of instructive to see But it is funny to think that right He made two Batman movies and he invented These kinds of movies

[01:27:35] Without really knowing how to do that They're really having action sequences No, he likes gags Like he likes like set up pay off Right and Batman just sort of like stomps around very slowly And sort of like punch So stiffly Like yeah He has the battering that

[01:27:48] But he like They give him enough time to sit there And be like Oh I'm gonna program it to hit this guy This guy Like it's very I mean the fact that like while The penguin is controlling his car

[01:27:59] He has the time to take out like a blank CDR Like a memrex Yeah From a multi-colored 10 pack Keep going And then insert it in And just be like I'll need this recording for later Is there any catwoman stuff we wanted to say

[01:28:10] Before we get to the box up there? I do like that they keep track the counting of How many times she's dying Right For the movie I mean I just I guess I want I know that guys always talk about this movie As being like this sexual awakening

[01:28:24] For them when they're young And I feel like there's some weird I haven't quite wrapped my head around what it is yet Having just watched it for the first time in a long time But there is some kind of version of that

[01:28:35] That I think happened for a lot of girls But it's like different It's like a kind of aspirational thing But also not It's like both cautionary and aspirational At the same time I don't know I Yeah it's interesting I mean she's so good I was telling

[01:28:52] When I was waiting for you guys To come back from glass Glass Two glass holes to come back from glass I was just talking about like Her performance is so Subtly good In a lot of ways Like she There is a moment where she like

[01:29:08] I can't remember what the action is But it's something like she Punches through a wall Or she's like breaking open some box Or something And the way she does it And it's like shot from behind Also I don't think that this movie objectifies her

[01:29:22] No matter how kinky her costume is Costume is kinky but she's not She's not kinky or anything And they're always sort of presenting her As a threat above all else Or just like this Well also Batman isn't afraid to say like Eat floor

[01:29:37] Like this isn't something where she There's like some lady she has to fight But there's a moment where she does this move And it's like It's totally physically cat-like But not in a way Like a cat's way Like the musical Like it's in a way that like

[01:29:54] It would be good if she was like RumbleT Sure I mean she's not doing like this I'm doing I'm I'm I'm like Which Halle Berry does a little bit of Right she does a lot of that But there's something it's just like more

[01:30:06] Just where do I put my weight In my body as I am like Half inhibited And inhabiting the role of a cat Which is like interesting and cool And I noticed that Way more this time around I was very impressed with that It's a very Physically precise performance

[01:30:24] And especially in a movie like this I think the same thing of DeVito though which is kind of crazy Because like as I said I've been watching all this taxi recently And his whole kind of thing is that he just sort of like Gets angry and flails around

[01:30:37] And it's amazing how often in taxi He's like pointing in the wrong direction Like the camera's not picking up on him And you get the sense that's just like This guy's a ball of energy Everybody wants and you just try to capture it And then in this

[01:30:50] I get the sense that Burton Was probably very meticulous on set But between like the makeup and the Costumes and the angles And their sort of gesture And all the different physical acts They're just like constantly this relationship Between them and the sets

[01:31:03] And the lens to like make these Perfect sort of tableaus Both of them it's crazy because They're wearing these things that must be Like such extreme physical impediments uncomfortable and hot. She came in pretty late to this movie because it was supposed to be a net banning.

[01:31:20] Then she got pregnant. Yeah. Then Sean Young broke onto the Warner Brothers lot wearing a homemade costume, trying to get the role. And people never stopped making fun of her for that. And then Michelle Pfeiffer got it and jumped into it.

[01:31:34] And she in interviews will always talk about how like impossible it was. So she's just like the first day was like, I can't act in this. Right. Right. I had to like move. Essentially cut her out of the suit once a day so she

[01:31:44] could like go to the bath. Yeah. Like it was like horrible. Right. And she's in these insane high heels. She's got these razor blades on her fingers and she had like had to learn how to actually use the whip, like all this stuff that's just like.

[01:31:56] And she was in this point where she was huge because she had had them married to the mob to kill sunrise dangerously is on. And then fabulous Baker boys. Well, that's early scarfaces. Yeah. But like that fabulous Baker boys is like the

[01:32:08] greatest one of the greatest female performances. In a movie, in my opinion. Yeah. And so I think, but then after that, that's 89. This is 92. Sure. And in between she just had like Frankie and Johnny, like she hadn't had a hit. Right.

[01:32:21] So I do think she was on a slight downswing. Like she did kind of need to be in the zeitgeist again. Yeah. I love Michelle Pfeiffer so much. Yeah, it worked. I mean this like really bumped her up for the rest of the decade. Yeah.

[01:32:34] I mean she kind of starts working less and less in the 2000s, but up until this point. And after this. Through to like White Olyander. She's in at least a movie a year. Right. You know, she works. Yeah.

[01:32:46] And she was a big fucking, you know, one fine day. We stand two legends. Yeah. That movie rules. Another movie I watched at a slumber party. That's a real slumber party movie. So can I tell you guys about my first experience watching this movie? Please.

[01:33:01] It's not really like a good story. Like it's not, it doesn't have a three act structure, but I will always associate this movie with being at a slumber party where for whatever reason, because this is just the kind of thing that happened to me and I

[01:33:13] could not explain why. I watched this movie in the living room of my friend's house. There was a wall of couch cushions down the middle of the room. I had to sit on one side of the wall and all the rest of the girls were

[01:33:28] on the other side of the wall. Why? That's just the kind of thing that happened to me when I went to a slumber party. Radially? Yeah. It makes walls. So my memory of this is just sort of like sitting on like a very carpeted

[01:33:39] floor and like all the girls are like on the other side of the wall. Why are you not on the, I don't understand. I'm very upset by this. Are you being victimized like actively or is it just like passively? I think I was just giving off like

[01:33:52] please make fun of me and torture me if I as a child. But you would get invited and then they would invite you to sort of. Yeah, be invited to a slumber party but then things would always take a turn once the parents went to bed.

[01:34:04] You build that wall. Suddenly they'd start chasing it. This is why I was such a like I was such a goody two shoes because like whenever parents were around everything was fine and I felt safe and whenever parents went away

[01:34:12] it was like, oh no, I'm going to get like they treated me like the penguin. This is why I feel so much for. That's why you were such close friends with Vincent Schiavelli. It's all kind of. It's my guy. Making sense now. He's your number one guy.

[01:34:29] Let's see the box office. OK. Wait, final thoughts. Come on. Bruce Wayne. Big ass fireplace rules. Right. You could burn a fucking tree in that. There were colors in this movie and they were in the last one and I'm grateful to it for that.

[01:34:42] It's it maybe because it's a Christmas movie, but I think I don't know. Let's talk about the ending because there are a couple interesting things that happen in the ending. I mean, it ends with the four main characters standing off in the Gotham Zoo, a snow

[01:34:56] fallen Gotham Zoo. And it there's like not a final action sequence. Like you have this like there's the electrocution, right? And what I'm saying is you have, you know, Penguin gives his big patent speech and then all the penguins take to the streets with

[01:35:12] their missiles taped to their backs. Oh, sure. Right. But then when they end up in this like sort of like four square there they just sort of talk to each other. Yeah. Like there are acts of violence within it, but it's not a fight sequence.

[01:35:25] And Bruce is essentially in this point in his life where he's like, you know what, this is stupid. Like I don't want to. Right. Who cares? Right. This great mask rips off so easily. I love it. It's bad. It's so strange. I love it.

[01:35:37] As a kid, I didn't like it. And I like it. I like how weird the rip is, how he still has like on one side of his bed. Yes. I also love when they cut back to him right before he rips it off.

[01:35:48] He doesn't have the eye black around his eyes. Right. We talked about this on this podcast. To the extent that I recorded it on my phone to just like double check it. And it's great. It's really weird. But he's sort of trying to like save Catwoman, which she

[01:36:01] just sort of scoffs at the notion of. She's sort of like half tempted, I think. But then she wants to kill Max Shrek. She wants her revenge. And he shoots her, kills most of her lives. And this is where I think Batman starts like I don't know.

[01:36:14] I'm I understand the argument that Batman sucks because he's a billionaire in a cop basically. But I think this is where his like I think it's easy enough to forget that about him when he's Michael Keaton Batman because Michael Keaton Batman is such

[01:36:29] a weirdo and he's so like he hates being a millionaire and not that it's like, oh, who being a millionaire? I'm a good millionaire. But like still it's like I think it's easier to overlook that that kind of I don't know for me, not great

[01:36:40] aspect of Batman being a superhero. But but I think when at the end when he's trying to assure Catwoman that the man who tried to murder her will be like taken care of into justice. Like the billionaire industrialist. Right. Yeah. He's like, yeah. Don't worry.

[01:36:58] The law will take care of this. And she understandably, I think is like no, I don't think they will. Yeah. I mean, he doesn't I think he doesn't want her to be a murderer. And of course, she is upset earlier when Penguin kills the beauty queen.

[01:37:13] Yes, she is. Which is another scene where you're like, oh, OK. But yeah, of course, she's got a fucking murder, Max Shrek rules. Yeah. And in a big taser explosion, she kisses him with a taser. Right. That was supposed to birth two phase.

[01:37:30] And then when they were test screening it, people loved Catwoman so much that they they shot this thing at the end. This final shot where she looks right. The end of the movie was just supposed to be, you know, Bruce Wayne takes the cat into

[01:37:44] the car says Merry Christmas, Alfred. And then the camera pulls up to the skyline and they couldn't get her back. So that's a weird animatronic dummy. Oh, we're back of her head. There's a whole special feature on how they tried to like replicate it and it didn't work.

[01:37:57] So they end up building a robot. Why didn't they just use a person? They did. And like the shape wasn't right. It's so strange. Oh, that's the DVD. They show all the evolution of the different attempts and they did one with a stand in and there

[01:38:10] was a problem with it that I don't fucking remember. Yeah. Can we just fast rewind really quick just because when Shrek, when Shrek gets electrocuted, he turns into a really good charred corpse. Yes. And scale. Oh, it's so good. His eyeballs are not burnt.

[01:38:25] So they're just sitting there in a burnt skeleton's head and his hair still looks the same. It's wild. It's really good. They wanted to make a Catwoman movie for a long time. There was a period of time where Tim Burton said that he was going to do

[01:38:40] it. It was part of the thing of him stepping down from Batman Forever, which he got a producer credit on that one. He wanted to make a third one. He was like, guys, you know, now I get the sequel thing if they're

[01:38:51] all like this, I'm down to make as many as you want. And they were like, you can't make these ever again. Absolutely not. There was the big thing where they had a happy meal promotion for this movie and parents pulled, right? protested because they were like,

[01:39:05] this is making it seem like it's a kid movie. My kid ran out screaming or I had to pull my kid out. It is a child's movie. Yeah. But parents were so furious about that. They were like local protests and shit. These things are not

[01:39:16] so clearly delineated back then. It's like there's a lot of Wild West as far as like what was a child's movie? Sure. What was not that was. So their thing was right. And that was back then there were also more like this is

[01:39:30] a family movie. It's Free Willy, whereas now like family movies are also adult blockbusters. Like all movies are made for a year old. It all got blurred together, which means that all the adult movies are made for a year. So Tim Burton, I think, was

[01:39:44] like cool, I'll just make Cat Woman. Cat Woman will be its own thing. You don't care about maintaining that brand. I can like run to my heart's content. And I think they never totally got a script they wanted. No, Daniel Waters wrote that incredible script that they

[01:39:58] loved and the studio read it and was like, not only are you not allowed to make this movie, don't even look at us again. I don't want to see your face darken this door, Daniel Waters. So then Burton quit and then I think they were still going to

[01:40:10] try to make some cat one move with Pfeiffer. Pfeiffer eventually quit and then it became like Ashley Judd. Like it went through like for a while. All the sort of actresses of the 90s until it ended up in Halle Berry with the brand. It's insane that it, man.

[01:40:22] It was it was going to be there's some. There's another has explained what his Catwoman script was and it sounds amazing. Yeah, it's like she goes to some city that's like Patriarchy City and she has adventure. She goes to like the opposite of Marwin. Yeah, I mean yeah.

[01:40:38] Right. He right. And his thing was that he turned it in the day Pat Men Forever came out. Oh, right. And they were like, this is not what we're looking for. There's also I found that I think it like surfaced in a couple of years ago

[01:40:50] that John August did a script for a Catwoman movie and he like has a sure that he put up to. That was like from late 90s. But I think that's when it was supposed to be the Ashley John. Yeah, but it also sounds kind

[01:41:02] of good. She goes to somewhere called Oasisburg, which is like Las Vegas to Gotham's New York City to resort area in the middle of the desert run by superheroes and it has a great movie has great fun making fun of the whole super male superhero mythos.

[01:41:16] They end up not being very good at all deep down. So she has to turn into Catwoman again. Yeah, my son's great. A town run by, you know, jerky male superheroes. The Catwoman has to like do battling. Yes. It's like Vegas. Sounds demented. OK, so box office game.

[01:41:33] Yeah, I almost blew it on Doug loves movies because I thought this movie had gross less than it did. I think probably just because the reputation of it was a disappointment. It was such a big drop off from the original. I don't remember it as a kid.

[01:41:47] It felt like the biggest movie of all time. It's it's weird to learn that it was such a disappointment. Well, just like the first one just kind of made like everyone happy by being just sort of like middle of the road in terms of

[01:41:59] its weirdness and balanced out with enough normalcy. Yeah. And this one I think people didn't know what the fuck to make of it. There are also few sequels like this that just like deviate this far from the original, change the aesthetic so much like he like warps

[01:42:15] a lot of the style from the first one. The sort of like 1940s aspect of it is sort of gone. It's a weird film. Anyway, David boxed off. June 19 1992. OK. It opens to forty five million dollars. I think was the biggest. It was the biggest opening week

[01:42:32] kind of all time. Yeah. Adjusted for inflation, I suppose that would be ninety seven. So it's amazing how much weakened inflation there's been in general. Yeah. Number two is the word of mouth. Well, what was the final total? It was two fifteen. No, no, no, no, no, no.

[01:42:48] What one sixty two. It was not a big hit. Right. Right. Because the original did four hundred. Yeah. Yeah. No, it was it was a disappointment. Right. And yeah, there is no question. What did the original do at the time? Two sixty or something. Oh, yeah, yeah.

[01:43:01] Here we go. I'm sorry. This is important. Two fifty one. OK. Two fifty one. So this made yeah, like a lot less. Yeah. Number two is the word of mouth comedy hit of the summer of maybe no one. I assume this was sort of a surprise hit.

[01:43:17] Maybe eventually it's made fifty five million. It's going to make one hundred thirty nine stars a lady. What does that lady of comedy a great lady of comedy? Mm hmm. Is it that middler? No. From nineteen ninety two. Correct. And she the only person above

[01:43:36] the title. Oh yeah, not only is she the only person only her first name needs to be of course the film is called Sister Act and whoopie is the star. That's right. What do we think of Sister Act? I'd never seen it. What? Yeah, never seen it.

[01:43:49] I don't remember anything about it. Sister Act two I've seen. I've seen it. I've seen both of them. Yeah, two is better. They're both good though. Maggie Smith. Yeah. Yeah. Did someone weird direct to Bill Duke direct Sister Act two? You don't have to yell at me.

[01:44:04] I think the great Bill Duke directed Sister Act two back in the habit. Sister Act one was directed by it's the dirty dancing. Delino. He did dirty dancing. And Sister Act two directed by the great Bill Duke back in the habit was directed by Bill Duke.

[01:44:20] Yeah, great movie. Number three is a robust adult male thriller. It's a sequel but it has a new actor. Seek but it has a new bus. It's a lot of talking. A lot of guys talking in the room being like we got to talk talk business and policy.

[01:44:40] Is it a Jack Ryan? It's a Jack Ryan movie. Is it clear and present? No. And the other one I always forget is called. It's about the IRA. Sean Bean is in it. He's the villain. Patriot games. That's right. There we go. Harrison Ford is Patriot Games.

[01:44:56] All of them. They're playing. It'd be great if someone in the movie actually said like they're playing Patriot Games. Heroocracy has a name and that name is Jack Ryan. Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah, the rare sequel that starts with Jack Ryan retiring where you're just like are we

[01:45:14] only just done one of these? We at least already retired. What if the third Batman movie was called Batman Retires? It's just like I got me on this Catwoman thing fucked me up. I don't know if I'm on the right side of this whole coin.

[01:45:25] Number four is a comedy Two Big Stars. We saw we all saw one of these stars last night at the New York Film Critics Circle. They came up on stage. They presented an award. Deborah Wenger. No. See Martin. Yeah. Is it is it House Sitter with Roy Lee?

[01:45:43] Never seen House Sitter. I haven't seen House Sitter. It's fun. It's a Frank Osville. I've seen House Guest with Sinbad. Right. And Phil Hartman. But I've never seen House Sitter. I like House Sitter. Are they House Sitter? Is that the idea? She is sort of a con artist

[01:45:57] where she pretends that she's House Sitting and he comes home. Sounds like more than a sort of a con artist. She is a con artist who pretends that she's House Sitting when people go away their vacation homes and then he comes back and then she starts a

[01:46:11] relationship with him so she can stay there. I've seen it a while ago. I remember it being pleasant. OK. Yeah. Number three. Number five is a three. Number five is a three. The three. Lethal weapon. Yeah. Lethal weapon three starring Mel Gibson, Dangle Lover and

[01:46:29] scribbled in Joe Pesci who's trying to get in frame. He's in between their two shoulders. Have you seen this poster? One of my favorites. I haven't. I don't think so. Joe Pesci. He must have been sick of us. Do you think Joe Pesci was

[01:46:44] calling his agent like every day being like, I want you to stay on Batman in case David. Right. Right. Right. We are the stalking horse. Do you think those are his fingers? No, absolutely. Those are little Vienna sausages. Pudgy little. They don't have nails.

[01:47:02] I just love this poster because Gibson and Glover are just playing it 100 percent straight, like which makes it all the funnier that Joe Pesci. Don't forget me. Chevy digits. Little Joey Pesci. Oh, boy. I've seen all the lethal weapons, but I really don't remember any of this.

[01:47:22] I think I have only seen one in four. Four is four is all right. Four is overstuffed. I also had a bad way. It's just interesting how many people they were pushing into that movie. Yeah, because it's got Jet Lee. It's got Chris Rock. Right.

[01:47:33] The Pesh, the Rousse. When did four come out? Like 98. Yeah. The gang's all here. We love them. The gang's all here. Chris Rock just does some of his stand-up routines. Literally just does stand up in the movie. There's a bit with Joe Pesci.

[01:47:47] He's like, I can't get my cell phone to work. Chris Rock is like, what's the deal with these cell phones? What it is. He just does his letterman set. Well, because he was so he was the biggest stand-up comedian since like prior, like where it

[01:47:57] was just like, we just got to get this guy in movies right now. He's going to be a movie star. Yeah. Yeah. You didn't like that I did that? You've been yelling a lot, David. I'm losing my voice too. Luckily we're recording another episode tomorrow. Yeah.

[01:48:16] How do you guys feel about the decision to do Burton so far? Well, we're still in the good part. So I really genuinely because I'm not like Griffin where I haven't seen almost any of these movies in a long time. Yeah. You know what I mean?

[01:48:28] Like I mean Batman Returns, maybe I've seen more free more, but like I had not seen it versus your hands and close to 20 years. Same goes for like Pee Wee. You don't drink the juice on the reg? Don't really drink the juice on

[01:48:41] the reg. I went on a date with my girlfriend. I'm dead silent. You can see it drop to see it like in a park a few years ago. I feel like it's one. It's very easy to see Beetlejuice frequently. I feel like I

[01:48:54] probably see at least half of Beetlejuice once a year. And you've said it two times and that's enough. That's OK. I want him to be here. I'd like to see him. People were very unhappy when he arrived and nothing funny happened. Almost as if I hadn't planned out

[01:49:07] how that bit would end. Anyway, and so yeah, so I'm dreading the coming times. We've only had to record one bad one. We've largely been in advance going in somewhat order. Right. But plan of the apes, I think is going to be soon for

[01:49:22] us just in terms of Cornel like we were at. That is dead last bottom in the barrel for me. I haven't rewatched it since it came out. I think there are more of a slog than that real slog. Does have apes. You know, whole plan of it.

[01:49:34] Yeah. And G. Marty's so I'm so out on the entire. I've never seen any of the new ones that everybody says are good. I don't know. No, I've seen I've seen Burton movies recently, although not a lot. I feel like the last one I saw

[01:49:48] what is it been big eyes? No, I didn't see big eyes. You see them dark shadows. No, I didn't see dark shadows. You probably saw us in Wonderland. No, I've never seen. All right. Must be Sweeney Todd. Yes, probably. Unless you saw Peregrine. No, I didn't know.

[01:50:02] It was probably Sweeney Todd. Yeah. Yeah. That's Sweeney. And he likes it. 10 years ago. 12 years ago. Maybe that's a good place to leave. Yeah. Probably old London. Put you in a boy. London. Sweeney, I have to get it out now because our guests, they won't

[01:50:17] be able to do this in front of Sweeney. Oh, our guests for that episode. But how did you learn how to do that accent so well? Seems pretty good at it actually. I was like the whole time like he'd locked right there.

[01:50:28] And he's not like you're an actor and so like it would make sense if you could do an accent. Classically trained. But David is. I'm no actor. I'm no actor. But did you do research for that accent? How did you learn how to?

[01:50:40] How would you pick it up? Somewhere in London, mate. What a lot of vacation. No fielding. On a vacation. What do you do? Like a holiday, like a house swap? What do you do? Well recently I did. Study abroad. Recently. One semester tops. Right.

[01:50:54] He stayed a little extra. Actually, I'm willing to commit more to this bit now that I've joined the other one. I'll go all in for this one. Order has been restored. This is how things are supposed to be. It is. David, wipe your tears away with

[01:51:07] Patreon money and answer me. I literally loaded the Patreon. To make sure there was one question. Are you just wondering if it's still worth it? Still a 2K. All right, there we go. Yeah, and then we know it's worth it.

[01:51:18] It's worth it. You know, it's got to be over. David, please look at that number and answer me one question. Where did you learn how to do that accent? Well, I was going to say I was actually just the other week in London on vacation.

[01:51:30] Was it your first time? Well, it wasn't my first time because I was actually there. But you must not have known anybody there. I was actually there for a wedding of one of my closest friends because I... How could you... What? No! Thank you all for listening.

[01:51:46] Thank you for being here, Amelie. You're the mother of blankies. You're the best. I'm trying. I met your mother last night. That's true. You were the mother of mother of blankies. The mother of mother of blankies and I told her that and she said, please stop telling me.

[01:52:04] I was drunk and I was like, you don't understand. You're the mother of the mother of blankies. She's like, I'm proud of my daughter. She's still not good. Really, she's visiting right now and I'm pretty sure she still doesn't know what I'm doing right now.

[01:52:16] I said it several times to her and she's like, so why are you watching Batman today? Yeah. Yeah. So, hi mom. Hi mom. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, subscribe. Thanks, Antford, Guga, for social media. We've been so loud this episode.

[01:52:29] I'm trying to be very like NPR and fall all out. No, don't do that. Give me more work. Talkin' about how you've been talking. Oh my God, relax. Relax? I'll print a crime. Thank you to Antford, Guga, for our social media. Thank you to Pat Reynolds

[01:52:43] and Joe Bowen for our artwork. Lee Montgomery for our theme song. Go to blankies.reddit.com for some real nerdy shit. Go to Tee Public for some real nerdy shirts. Remember to sign up for Blink Check Special Features on Patreon. And as always, an hour ago,

[01:53:00] Ben texted me we should end the show with and as always, parentheses sing kiss from a rose, except that's not from this movie. That's from Batman Forever. But fuck!