Batman with K. Austin Collins

[00:00:00] Blank Check with Griffin and David, Blank Check with Griffin and David, Don't know what to say or to expect All you need to know is that the name of the show is Blank Check Tell me something my friend, ever podcast with the devil in the pale moonlight?

[00:00:26] Sure, right. Never podcast another man's rhubarb. Yeah. Jack, you are my number one podcast. Did he just... that's all improv? That's what it seems like. It's him mocking Jack Palance, which feels a little mean within the same movie. Full of mean. Full of mean.

[00:00:46] Like the Palance picture rap? Can I just dunk on him on camera now? That would be a breathy old man. Palance is gonna beat the shit out of Nicholson if he sees this. Palance is even at this old age so physically intimidating. I know everyone likes it.

[00:01:01] Well, also he lived for another 15 years. That's the crazy part. And people talk about the one arm push ups thing, but you just watch him this and you're like, God, I wouldn't want to be punched by him. He just seems like a real angry guy.

[00:01:12] What did he do for the next 15 years? Well, he does like... Two city slickers. City slicker is pretty much right after this. Right. And he wins his Oscar, 91. Oh, you're talking about that old guy? Yeah, that old guy. That old guy. That old guy is curly. How much?

[00:01:25] And curly's brother. How much is he in curly city slickers too? A lot. Because he plays a different character or something? He plays curly's brother. Right, right, right. That was... It's one of those dumb things where they were like, fuck the magic.

[00:01:36] Fuck we killed off the good character in the first one, right. The thing that really popped in this movie was the interaction. So then they have to be like, I'm curly's brother. He never talked about, I got the exact same energy as curly.

[00:01:48] So they're searching for curly's goal. That's what it's called. Yes, the legend of curly's goal. I've never seen that. I haven't seen that one either. Curly's brother is like, of course I've heard a lot about you. Three guys that curly spent four days with across his 80 years.

[00:02:02] And you're the only people who can help me. He also did that movie with Chevy Chase, Cops and Robbersons. I think one of Ben's favorite movies, right? Another, yeah, great film. I've also never seen that one. It's a holiday film. It's very fun.

[00:02:15] That's sort of the end of it for him, but it was like this was sort of his like late career revival. Like like, like Burn putting him in this felt like kind of kitschy. And then he has city slickers, which is like his career peak.

[00:02:27] And then he does like a couple of shitty comedies and then He's also in Tango and Cash around now. Oh, because he played like the chief or something. He's like the third lead in that. I've never seen it.

[00:02:37] I bet he's like the chief or the bad guy or something. Right? Sure. Yeah. And look, he's my number one guy. That's right. Welcome to Palence cast. I don't know why are we talking so much pal- He's in two scenes. Yeah. They're good scenes. They are good scenes.

[00:02:52] I always, I used to watch this movie with my dad because it would be on a lot, I guess. And he wouldn't let me watch the nasty scenes because that was very little. We're talking when I'm like five or six years old. Yeah.

[00:03:03] So he would not let me watch the handshake buzzer. I think it's upsetting though. It's weird. It's one of those things. When you're a little kid. I mean, when you're a little kid. Fair enough. And he wouldn't let me watch the Jack Palence getting murdered scene,

[00:03:17] which is not bad at all. He's just shot to death. Right. And there were some other, I guess something to do with the Smile X probably, some weird, you know anything sort of nightmarish. So what did he do with like the kinky stuff and Batman Returns?

[00:03:30] Well, no, I was unaware of Batman Returns. That one was not on my radar until a little later. Okay. But that was the one. That one is weird. I mean, that one is, I mean, in the penguin biting the guy's nose.

[00:03:41] Well, talk about this next week, but that was the one where like parents protested. Right. Because like controversy. Yeah. My parents, that was my first movie in the theaters. Really? Returns? Yeah. I guess my parents weren't invited to the protest.

[00:03:55] I remember wanting to see it so badly because I was three or four when it came out. Why see it so badly and being like so simultaneously revolved and entranced by the poster that the bat, the cat, the penguin poster was just like this is upsetting and appealing.

[00:04:12] To me, I was young enough when that movie was being, was out. Yeah. That I would see the posters all the time. But I didn't know much about like movie stars yet. So I just assumed they were the three biggest movie stars of all time. Right.

[00:04:25] The bat, the cat, the penguin. No, but no, no, the one where it's like Michelle, Michael, Danny DeVito and Michelle. Amazing poster. I'm like they must be for them to be on top of this poster. They must be the best actors ever. It was Keaton Pfeiffer DeVito, right?

[00:04:37] They did last name's last. No, Pfeiffer's last. But I'm saying it wasn't... No, no, no. It's their full names. There's one I feel like that is just last name. Well, the Batman poster is Nixon Keaton. Right. Yeah. Then just the logo, just the... Yeah. You know that.

[00:04:50] Amazing poster. Yes. Really, really smart poster. I get angry sometimes about how good that poster is. Oh, you get angry? I'll tell you what. You're not angry too much. I'm furious. We just said our ad reads. Get ready for those. He's gonna scream me the whole time.

[00:05:04] The spoiler alert. I just got a text message that my Brooklyn delivery is on the way. This of course is a bulletin check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin Newman. David Sims. Podcasts about filmography. He's director.

[00:05:14] So a massive success early on in their career of giving a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. This is what I'm gonna talk about one second when I'm done with the intro.

[00:05:23] This of course in main series on the films of Tim Burton. It's called Podward Scissorcast. And this is the definition of massive success early on in your career that gives you a series of blank checks to make whatever the hell you want. Sure. He's still essentially...

[00:05:37] He's still cashing this check. Yeah. If you do Dumbo for us, they're still like, you're the guy who did Batman and it was good. That's a thing. He's had massive successes since. Sure. But he also could be downing out just on Batman for the rest of time.

[00:05:47] Pretty much probably. Because this movie essentially invents the modern blockbuster. You know you go there are these like paradigm shift moments where it's like you have like Jaws and Star Wars in the 70s. Star Wars, sure. Right?

[00:06:01] And then I feel like this is a big shift to this movie. And then Dark Knight and Iron Man in 2008. Yeah. And then essentially from 89 to 2008, like this is the template that everyone's working off of. Star driven big brand movies. What were you just reacting to?

[00:06:16] Iron Man or Dark Knight? Just cinema today. Movies. You know I like both of those movies but where it's led us. Sure. Most people have taken the wrong lessons from both of those movies. Sure. Right.

[00:06:30] There was a thing even to bad movies in the wake of Batman where the thing they were really latching onto was this sense of an event. Like a cultural event. And that's why that poster makes me angry.

[00:06:40] It makes me angry because this movie came out when I was four months old and I didn't live through this. Uh-huh. But if I had seen this at any age where I was like alert and aware

[00:06:50] and interested about cinema, I would have been like no one's ever going to top that. Because you had this thing where it was like Batman is like culturally omnipresent. Everyone knows what Batman is. It existed for decades in different permutations. That logo is so universally recognized.

[00:07:07] I mean I remember hearing this stat once that Batman and Superman have 99% global awareness. 99% of the population of the planet Earth. Right, right, right. You could show them the logo and they'd know. And the fact that they were like we're making a serious Batman movie

[00:07:22] all they had to do was just put the logo on a poster with the date and it was sold. And there's like nothing else you can really do that with. Yeah. Like when people try to do similarly minimalist teaser posters here's what I was thinking of.

[00:07:34] Here's the poster for the shadow. Right. The 1993 or four Alec Baldwin film, The Shadow based on the famous radio play. Yes. Where they're the poster is just a carbon copy, right? It's like a cool image tagline, nothing else, no actor, no name.

[00:07:51] But they're like you get it, right? And of course no one got it or no one cared, right? You know, like it's difficult to replicate. People tried to do this like a lot after this. I mean, I feel like the Batman Forever teaser poster is just

[00:08:02] the question mark with the date with no title. Yeah. I think the Alien 3 poster is similarly maybe it's some version of an egg or a chestburster, but it's kind of oblique. Like everyone tried to do this and Batman was like the one instance where that totally fucking worked.

[00:08:16] They could have done the same thing with the original Christopher Reeve Superman poster and they didn't. And the fact that they had the confidence with Batman just like put it up in a fucking bus shelter. What is the Superman poster actually? Superman is great.

[00:08:26] It's got a lot of text on it. It's a great poster. Well, it has a great tagline though. You'll believe a man can fly. I mean that's good. It's not as good. I think it's a very good poster.

[00:08:36] I just love the audacity of like we don't need to say anything else. Right. At this point we don't need to tell them who's in the movie. It's just the logo and a date and everyone would go, oh fuck there's a Batman movie. Right.

[00:08:47] Our guest today is chaos and Collins. Hi. From Danny Fair. Hey Ken, how are you doing? Hi everyone. How's it going? So you go by chaos and on Twitter. I mean, your byline because David was like saying like, oh, Cam's interesting being on the show.

[00:09:02] I'm never heard of Cam Collins. Oh, it's true. People get confused. And then I've been reading your stuff for years and I follow you on Twitter and I just, I didn't know. I didn't know. It's almost like you have a Batman and a Bruce Wayne.

[00:09:14] Well, I was going to say, I mean it is very good. This hasn't happened yet, but I'm waiting for it to happen where someone's like talking shit about me and they don't know that it's me. Right. Oh, they're like this hate Austin.

[00:09:24] You want someone to be roaming through your mansion, making fun of all the suits of armor you have from all your international travels. And I will sneak up behind them. Yeah. Or else feel the girl. Fuck you, Arliss. Yeah. Arliss kind of vanishes from this movie.

[00:09:38] Well, you know, he's so memorable. Yeah. Sure. He's supposed to die. Oh, sure. You know, there's that weird shot at the end of the Joker parade when she hits him with the car and then you see him lying on a pile of trash.

[00:09:50] That was supposed to be his death. And apparently like John Peters and Peter Goober were like, fucking wool, you're poppin' in this movie. We need you for the sequel. We can't kill you off. Like one of those stories like they saved Jeff

[00:10:05] Goldblum because he was like connecting too hard. You and Amar Agnes. Sure. Right. Except they didn't bring him back. No one cared. There's no room for him in like the Kinky Universe of Catwoman. No. No place there. And that also, that character feels like this

[00:10:18] is the thing I find so fascinating about this movie. I think Batman Returns is a superior film because Batman Returns is just like pure uncut Burton, like no strings attached. He can do whatever the fuck he wants. And this movie is fascinating because it's

[00:10:32] like a really clear Burton vision but him having to like reckon with the demands of like tentpole filmmaking and the things they think they need to sell the movie and the things that are like, you know, popular cliches of the action films of

[00:10:46] that time and somehow it still works. Like the Robert Wol character shouldn't work in a Tim Burton movie. He feels like he's from a shittier Batman directed by like, you know, a shittier journeyman director. And the Prince songs like Prince fucking rules, but Prince is an entirely different

[00:11:03] vibe. The Prince songs are an interesting addition to this movie. Could you hum one of those songs off the top of your head? I think I've seen this movie. And I trust. Yeah, that's the one. Right, and the other way. The Potemann. I owned the soundtrack because I

[00:11:18] own it. I own it. I mean, I guess I still own it on CD wherever my CD is. But I remember when I was a kid buying it and being like, wait a second, there's not like the theme song. It was a big deal that this movie had

[00:11:32] two separate soundtracks that both of them like charred it. But this is like these are the things that make this movie insane. People are like, oh yeah, Prince wrote a couple songs for that Batman movie. No, Prince wrote a Batman hour and a half hour.

[00:11:47] And he wrote a Batman album. Yeah, we're like nine songs. Yeah, that's what's insane. And we don't talk about the other six very inspired by the Adam West Batman, like the old cartoonish Batman. One of the songs, the one that I think is the banger of the album,

[00:12:01] Vicki waiting is just about Batman ghosting Vicki Vale. Like it's a song very much inspired by the plot of 1989's Batman. And it's about Vicki waiting by the phone. And you're like, he sat down and was like, what's my Vicki Vale had to like a guy who always

[00:12:17] followed his own muses like Prince like no one can rain him in. No one could tell him what to do. They were like writing on his songs about Batman. He was like, cool, right on it. How did that happen actually? Do you know?

[00:12:27] Yeah, what's the how do they talk how they talked him into? I understand. I'm guessing it was tied to all his movies were Warner Brothers at that time. Oh, you're right. You know, so like Post Purple Rain. Right. So maybe there are more films.

[00:12:40] Yeah, so maybe it's like let's do cross media. Let's let's let's have a Batman everything. Right. And maybe he liked Batman. It was designed by Warner Brothers. He's a Warner Brothers stable mate. Right. He was on their label. His talent. I was recorded in six weeks. Crazy.

[00:12:57] Electric chair scandalous and Vicki waiting are old songs. Vicki waiting used to be called Anna waiting. Oh, okay. About his then girlfriend. That's crazy because it tracks so well. Right. And obviously he like, well, I like that Prince was like I also like the Prince was like,

[00:13:16] I gotta write a song about how frustrating it is to be Batman's girlfriend. Oh, I'll use that song up being Prince's girlfriend. He wants same difference. He once said in an interview, I feel like Prince would just say shit sometimes, but he once said in an interview.

[00:13:29] Say shit like I'm Batman. That it was supposed to be a collaboration between himself and Michael Jackson. Okay. Where Michael Jackson was going to be the Batman of the album. And he was going to be the Joker. Right. I think that's too much.

[00:13:41] So like Jackson would come in and do like a heroic ballad and then Prince would come in and do like a weird funk villain song that literally that is what I'm reading. That album would also like shatter glasses in a like cartoon opera singer way.

[00:13:55] If it's just both Prince and Jackson in their upper register, singing about batterings. Each songs accredited to a character. So the future in scandal is for Batman. Electric chair party man of the trust are for the Joker. Vicki waiting is sung from the perspective of Bruce Wayne.

[00:14:13] While Lemon crush comes from Vicki Vale. Weird. He threw out 20 songs. I just like that he went for it. Right. He did, but that's like I don't think of any song as tied to Batman though or really even Vicki, it really is just like the Joker only.

[00:14:29] The Joker. Well, those are the only two songs. The only two they play within the body of the film are the two like Joker, like I'm going to have fun. You know, it's him at the

[00:14:38] at the parade and it's him in the museum and it's very much like this is Joker's like getting into trouble anthems. And it's it's classic. Right. And then they play Nickerson really. Oh yeah. He moves. He does. I do love though this feels like

[00:14:51] dancing villains. Totally. This does feel to me like the holiday though where the songs weren't written when they filmed it and they're just like just jamming. I'm gonna dance at a rhythm that you could set anything into. Like

[00:15:05] he's just like doing a lot of like flailing and pointing at people and he's got a lot of props. He looks like he's having a great time. He does look like it's why the movie works because he's just like it's kind of like

[00:15:17] Meryl Streep and Mama Mia where we are like this serious person is being so silly and like totally happy about it where they're just like they're just welcoming you into the movie. You know just but it's fine. It's fun.

[00:15:27] We're all having fun here. I would argue that his casting alone changes Hollywood forever. Sure. The fact that he signs on to this movie changes Hollywood. And it's also just yeah. It's crazy thing. Right. When you're making

[00:15:36] this movie, you need Nicholson to give your movie credibility whereas now it's like these people, you know, big famous actors, they'll play the fifth lead in fucking Aquaman or whatever. Like what? You know, sure. Like sign me up. That's depressing. Right. It's true though. Right.

[00:15:50] Like did Dick Tracy come before this or after? Dick Tracy is a year after. Yes. I love that movie. Because that's one of my favorites. That's 1990. Yes. There's so many things that like cultural artifacts and like trends and weird like movements that come out of this movie.

[00:16:04] But one of them is that everyone misinterpreted the success of this movie and rather than making more superhero films, right? They do like 30s gangster movies for the next eight years. They do the shadow. Is that the shadow? They do the Phantom. Yeah. The scene.

[00:16:18] Like it's all like these like kind of noirish. Nor is another big one. I'm forgetting. Billy's aim. That's the Phantom. The Phantom. Yes. Slam evil. Which you know, the great story about the Phantom is that Joe Dante

[00:16:29] was supposed to direct it and he wrote it as a comedy that was sort of like a very Joe Dante, like Matt and a style, like loving look at the old serials. Sounds amazing. And then they had like production delays and he.

[00:16:41] I would love to see them dropped off the project because he was supposed to make something else. And they hired a new director who worked off of the script that Joe Dante developed and no one told him it was a comedy. Oh no.

[00:16:51] And he was like, I went to the screening and I assumed they had like thrown out most of my stuff and I was like, no, they just misinterpreted everything. He the director of Free Willy. Russell McKay. He no, no, he did the Windsor.

[00:17:02] Russell McKay. He did the shadow. OK, I don't think I've seen the shadow. I never saw it. It's like Baldwin. Yes, well, maybe I did. The funniest thing about the shadow is that like you go 1987. Tim Burton. OK, we're going to let you make Batman.

[00:17:18] Who do you want to play Batman? He's like, oh my God, I just worked with this actor on Beetlejuice who'd be perfect for Batman. He has the voice. He has the steely intensity, the smoldering McKees one. They're like, great, we already have Baldwin on the phone.

[00:17:30] He's like, hang up, I'm talking to you. You know that guy with a kind of puffy hair that's a little receding already? OK, so I have like a thousand things to talk about in this episode.

[00:17:40] But like my pin, I know I've got to let me my pin tweet. My pin tweet as I was thinking about it right. I think it's from 2015. Sure. 14. I tweeted while rewatching this movie late one night. Michael Keaton's hair in Batman gives me

[00:17:57] hope that I might be able to play a superhero someday. Because I remember just watching this and being like, this guy looks so fucking unconventional in this movie. He doesn't fit into the archetype. No, no. And I was just like, it's not ever going to happen.

[00:18:09] But I watched this and wonder if maybe there's a window through where through which I could sneak. And then once I got cast in the tick, I immediately pinned that tweet. Yeah, of course. Like Babe Ruth call my shot like I fucking did it.

[00:18:22] My hair is also so much puffier in season two. I was like full off it up. Right. Yeah, his hair is so puff. Give me the flip in the back. All I was thinking the whole time was like, how did they let this hair be on screen?

[00:18:33] It's so weird, especially because every like interpretation of Bruce Wayne is like so clean cut, like so traditional, generically handsome, matinee idol and Keaton's a handsome guy. But he's a weird kind of handsome. Like he's got weird features. He's a smarty idol guy.

[00:18:50] He doesn't have like angular features at all. No, he's got 45 degree eyebrows. But he does have mysterious lips. Right. He's got really mysterious lips. Mysterious lips work. Those deep crevices on the sides of his mouth. And then that weird pointy nose.

[00:19:03] Like it's like he's got a really bizarre face that is so compelling to watch. It's extremely compelling with a mask on. It is a little weird when he takes the mask off. A little bit. Why does you're right? He looks really good with the mask on.

[00:19:16] But he's like the purse lips thing is really good. Right. It's the lips because you're just looking right at his lips. Or is Bale doesn't have that? No. Well, yeah. Bale's got eyes. He's got very weird intense eyes. So that's a performance that screams over compensation

[00:19:30] for what Michael Keaton has that he does. When you're watching this again where he just picks up and he's like I'm Batman. Like rather than I'm Batman. There's the one thing that I think Bale does better than Keaton.

[00:19:40] And I think it's mostly because they don't ask Keaton to do it. Which Bale is really good at. I think this is the whole reason when they cast him as Batman playing the role of billionaire playboy or heightened. He's very silly. Because that's like the Patrick Bateman.

[00:19:54] Like that's why you cast him. Yeah. He's a really good Bruce Wayne in the sort of traditional. Right. And then I know. He knows that this guy is a lunatic. OK, I'm going to get to all this. So can I speed around this shit?

[00:20:04] I mean, especially in Batman Returns, which we'll talk about, but even in this one, you're like he's so bored. Like I'm going to get to it. When he's Bruce Wayne. I'm going to speed around this shit as much as I can. He just feels distracted.

[00:20:15] Like when someone's talking, he's just like, oh yeah, whatever. Mm-hmm. Yeah. He has kind of a space cadet, but that's what's so appealing. Yeah. I think that's better than or not. But I like that version of Bruce Wayne versus the like, oh, he's just doing a performance.

[00:20:29] I like this. This guy can't wait to be Batman. Like I can't have a gung-ho Batman against fucking Goothball. Right. Yes. Sure. You know, yeah. Joker. Yeah. Crimes are will be. He's a prince parade. I can't have like a gung-ho. No one ever right.

[00:20:44] No one ever says to the Joker, like, think of like the people you've killed. Like no one's ever like trying to reason with it. It's like I fucking date models. Shut up. Mick Jagger's wife. Yeah. It's very cool. Yes. All right. Go ahead. Speed round this shit.

[00:20:59] Because of hopping on this, I'm going to start with this and then go back to the beginning. OK, OK. I do think in terms of like how well Keaton's face fits that mask, how much it transforms in his mouth and his eyes have all these power.

[00:21:11] It's framed by that cow. I think the cow is really well designed. And I think I picked up on watching this time. I'm holding in a burp. Sorry. I'm like looking at him like a real. I took a massive toke. You know, I'm constantly doobin on this show.

[00:21:25] They actually sent out an email about the all the vaping you've been doing in the studio. I've been vaping like crazy. Right. It is a problem in trouble. Yeah. This is I hop box the studio every week and these Mike smell like danger.

[00:21:38] Which is hard to do with a vape. I know. Right. Yeah. Well, I laid it on fire. So why did you guys discontinue that the week that I'm here? Oh, come on, Ben. Get out of here. Well, the building cracked down.

[00:21:49] Ben's got his jaunty Christmas light necklace on right now, though. Yeah. It's pretty cool. I do love it for the holiday. Is that plugged in somewhere? No. No. Tricks this out. Oh, yeah. It makes it flashing more now. It's running off Ben's Christmas spirit.

[00:22:05] It's plugged straight into his heart. What do you want to talk about? Here are a couple of things I'm going to say. One, I think the way the mask transforms and a it has to do

[00:22:13] with like and I picked up on this time, but the angle of the eyebrows on the mask are the same as Keaton's eyebrows. They are. Yes. Whereas like Bale's mask has like a furrowed brow. There are lots of wrinkles like his is just very simple.

[00:22:30] And the Adam West and a lot of the comics of like the Adam West has the weird curl eyebrow ones, but they look more sort of inquisitive. And these ones are like very arch angry eyebrows. But even the way his mouth transforms, it reminds me of Robocop

[00:22:43] where like you look at Peter Waller and you're like, oh, Peter Waller cool. And then when you put that helmet on him, suddenly you're like, this guy has the most beautiful lips in the world. No, totally. It's this very specific kind of vision that like Verhoeven

[00:22:53] and Burton both clearly had of like I see the elements of his face that are really going to pop when we put him in this mask, this costume in a way a generically handsome man wouldn't necessarily. George Clooney for example. Right. There's not a good Batman mask.

[00:23:06] Right, right, right, right. At all. It's just sort of formless, weirdly. Right. And the same thing. Attractive guy. The same thing with Affleck where you're like, he's got a good chin. Like he looks like Batman, but it's not interesting. Affleck is such a meathead Batman. It's so weird.

[00:23:17] Like Batman used to have a jaw, you know? Yes. What happened? Yes. Well, Affleck's jaw is so specific. And then with the lips, I will shout out, Val Kilmer has great lips. Yes. And I am more of a fan of his Batman than you are.

[00:23:31] He's my least favorite Batman. No, Clooney is horrendous. I think Clooney is much better than him. I love George Clooney. I agree. He was done dirty by the movie. Clooney could have been a good Batman. Maybe. It's sort of hard to...

[00:23:42] One day we're going to re-watch the movie. We will. He's mostly Bruce Wayne in that movie. You know what I mean? Kilmer? No, no. Clooney. Like, you know, he's got like this turtleneck on, like half the movie and he's kind of just like sitting

[00:23:53] by the fire wondering if he should marry El McPherson. Bobbing his head. Yeah, bobbing his head. Right. Yeah. It's like, I don't remember a single thing he does like as Batman in that movie. He just kind of stands around. Robin Alfred's dying. He's not sick. He's dying.

[00:24:06] He stands out the way for Crystal Donald to be hot as Robin. Yeah. Crystal Donald, he... Like a good friend. Yes. Okay, speed round stuff. Okay. I'll cycle back around to this because the real moment this movie comes together is the casting choice

[00:24:17] of Michael Keaton, but you guys talking about like the weird haunted quality, Burton goes to Keaton and goes, look they're letting me direct Batman. I want you to be Batman. Right. And Keaton goes, that's a stupid idea. They won't let you do it.

[00:24:32] I'm not a good choice and I wouldn't want to do it. Uh-huh. And he goes, just read the script. He gives like a sherman-esque statement like, I won't do it and I will not run if asked or whatever. Yeah.

[00:24:42] And he's like, read the script, tell me what you think. And he reads it and like Keaton's account, he says like, you know, I read it and I had a very specific take on it. There was one thing that jumped out to me

[00:24:54] and I said, met up with Tim and I went, look I got one thing from this script but I don't think it's what you want out of this character and I don't think they'd let me do it. Uh-huh. And he goes, what's the thing you got?

[00:25:03] And he goes, this guy's insane. Right, right, right. This guy has not been able to process his trauma. Sure. He's like on the verge of a mental breakdown, he seems like a kind of normal boring guy but the only way he can prevent himself

[00:25:15] from having like a full psychotic break is to dress up as a bat. Like this is his weird insane coping mechanism and he's so lonely and he's so haunted. Where's the lie? And Tim Burton was like, yeah that's the movie I want to make. Right, right, right.

[00:25:26] And they were like, okay cool then let's do it. If you think you can sell them on that that's what I want to do. Which is the smartest interpretation that anyone's had into this character. Right. That Batman is this coping mechanism

[00:25:37] and that's the thing that really blossoms with Batman Returns where it's like three people dealing with acts of cruelty by creating these like disassociated personas. And also Batman Returns is the one where he's just sitting in his chair looking out the window waiting for the bats.

[00:25:51] My background on my phone, my favorite moment of all time. It is. It is so funny. My background on my phone is- I just think that moment is so funny where he's just like bored. It's the moment where he looks over and sees. Yeah.

[00:26:05] So in the 1970s there was a man named Michael Ueslamp who is one of the luckiest people in the history of Hollywood. He did a couple really smart things but the amount of money he's made off of decisions

[00:26:18] he made in the 70s I cannot even begin to calculate. He gains notoriety for being the person who in the 1970s starts fighting for comic books to be viewed as a legitimate medium. Sure, yeah. Oh, Satan. Yes. Yes, his name was- Yellzapa. He has Lord of Darkness. Right.

[00:26:37] From looking at him he looks like a big nerd. He's like a nerd from Bayonne, New Jersey. Okay? Oh, totally from Bayonne, New Jersey. He's a nerd from Bayonne, New Jersey. He liked comic books. He liked comic books. He collected them? Yes. And he's the guy who's like,

[00:26:50] if you read the old Batman's, like this is a dark character. It's not the Adam West thing. He had this irritation. He was the guy who'd correct people and go like actually. What he said, the bane of his existence was every time anyone wrote about Batman

[00:27:03] they put the words like pow or bang within the same sentence. Because the association was so much- The Adam West TV show had just dominated. Which I think people have now come around to loving the Adam West show for what it is,

[00:27:15] but there was a period of time where people were like- That was a comedy. Like that was written and performed as a comedy. Right, and the Batman comic books were always meant for kids, but they were based in sort of the psychological trauma of this guy

[00:27:26] and they removed that whole spine from, it's just a detective show with a fun guy beating fun villains who aren't really threatening. And we associate power with Mark Maron shitting his pants. Right, of course now. Ha ha ha. Uh huh. That is the association.

[00:27:41] He stole power from Batman and we stole it from him. What goes around comes around. So, Use Land started like a comic book class in his college. As the person, as the professor. As a student they had a thing at his college

[00:27:56] where you could like start in a credit class. You have to make a case and get approval from a faculty member. And he went to the folklore guy and he gave him this whole pitch about like, the professor was like,

[00:28:07] I like funny books when I was a kid. But come on, grow up. And he was like, look, what's the story of Superman? What's the story of Moses? And he was like, oh they send the child down the river. Oh my God, you're right.

[00:28:19] It is the same as the Bible. Fucking folklore guy. Right, this very- Joseph Gamble. This very opportunistic young nerd from New Jersey got a lot of press for this class because this was this drum he really wanted to bang. Yes, and he's right.

[00:28:37] He called in the local radio stations and newspapers and was like, you hear their teaching a comic book class? What's this world coming to? So that they would cover it and would bring more attention to it. And that led to him sort of becoming a preeminent figure

[00:28:50] and sort of being brought onto panel shows and talk about these things and eventually being brought into DC to write comics for them. So he's writing like low level sort of side DC titles. But he gets really into the idea of

[00:29:00] we need to make like real DC movies. This is the 70s, Superman's already started but no one else is trying to make any other superhero movies. And Superman was seen as an anomaly. Well they got a couple really good actors in it. Richard Donner's like a pro.

[00:29:13] Superman is so iconic. But it was still like, hey these characters that originated in serials. You know there was still this separation in church and state where it's like TV is shittier than film. You know genre things aren't real movies. All this sort of stuff.

[00:29:28] So he makes a deal with DC for the rights to Swamp Thing for like no money. Okay. He's like I'd like to try and make a Swamp Thing movie which he eventually gets Wes Craven to do. And there are like no one else

[00:29:42] is asking for Swamp Thing so you can do it. And he has a friend whose dad is a film producer named Menaker. Okay. And he goes like, I really think there's money in trying to make a Batman movie. Right. They try to put up the money

[00:29:55] and they get... Benjamin Menaker. Benjamin Menaker. They, Melnicker, excuse me. Right. They have credits on every Batman movie that they've ever had. They from DC work out a deal where they license the rights to Batman in perpetuity in any movie. Also including any other characters

[00:30:14] created within the Batman universe. Wow. Yeah. Like he's a producer on the Halle Berry Catwoman movie. Yes. That we all remember very well. So this record is spotless. Exactly. He's a producer on... On like any TV show like the cartoons. King Titans.

[00:30:28] The only thing they didn't get was TV. The movie Lego movie? They didn't get, yes. They didn't get TV but it does cover animation. So he gets from the Lego movie. Melnicker died at 104 like a couple of years ago. Use Land still going strong. Yep.

[00:30:41] The checks just rolled in. The executive producer on all the Lego movies. Right. And that's like the lifetime of payment he gets for pushing this thing up a hill for a decade. Sure. Because no one wanted to fucking make it. Why Batman? Because that was his favorite.

[00:30:55] Because that was his favorite. He loved it. Good choice. Yeah, Batman's good. This is a reclamation project. Right. And he was like after Superman, Batman's the next logical one. I'm gonna get to it before anyone else and I assume everyone will wanna make it.

[00:31:06] And I have a real take on how to do it. And his thing from the get go was bring it back, take away the West associations, make it dark and haunted and all this sort of stuff. Right. And at the same time in the 80s,

[00:31:16] the Batman comics are getting more dark again and Alan Moore is writing... Well that's what helps them. ...the killing jokes and things like that. Because at this point in 1979, they pitch it to literally every studio and everyone passes. CBS wanted to produce a film called

[00:31:26] Batman in Out of Space. Did you know that? These are the things that were getting thrown around. Or like Ivan Reitman was like, I'd love to do Batman with Bill Murray and it's like a parody of... Of the Adam West shit, right.

[00:31:37] Right, you know it's like us doing like a parody of a square jawed serial movie. I would watch that. I would watch that. I mean all these things would be interesting. I think that's what Lost in Translation was. On their own. That's what that was about.

[00:31:48] With Scarlett Johansson as Vicky Bell. Right. Vicky Bell. But he's really adamant about this is the way you bring back Batman and they can't get it going anywhere. They eventually go to Peter Goober, Casablanca's, record producer, film producer. He sells signs on to it.

[00:32:03] So now they're shopping it around and Goober very quickly is like, Warner Brothers is gonna want this back. New Head of Warner Brothers comes in, goes like, you licensed Batman out to whom? And there's a variety story. It's the front page of variety

[00:32:18] but it's like the sick story down. Like, like Reams Below like ABC Dips and Thursday Night Ratings. Is Warner Brothers licenses Batman rights from Melnicker and Use Land. So they signed some deal that must have been the best contract of all time.

[00:32:38] Because you know if there was any wiggle room for them to get out of that, they would have by now. But these guys still get money for every Batman movie because they had set up like the Batman film company and technically Warner Brothers is licensing

[00:32:50] the characters from the Batman film company. These guys are geniuses. It's amazing. One day he will die. Yes. And then I don't know what happened. I don't know if it goes on to his children or if they haven't written out that it ends at that point.

[00:33:02] Half children just do have that. Just to be quick for Batman. Yeah, he should adopt every day. Their first words will be, this stays in the family. Yes. Right. Right. Do whatever you want. Yeah. I don't care. The most precious bloodline of all time. That's amazing.

[00:33:18] Was this I mean, this mistake could never have been made again. Right. I'm surely. No, that's why I'm saying and like there's so many cases where they find ways to fuck people over with deals that should work like that. Right.

[00:33:28] And the fact that this guy with like almost no other status like he created the cartoon show Dinosauce's and he has like maybe three non Batman non Swampton credits in his entire career. The spirit. Yes. Constantine, I think you produced like

[00:33:44] there's a couple of the comic book things. That was because he liked the spirit so much. He was originally developing the shadow with Sam Raimi when Raimi was trying to make that movie. That would have been good. That would have been better.

[00:33:56] This was the guy who like fixed Batman so people were trying to bring him on for that. Raimi should have made the spirit. Yes. Raimi would be perfect for the spirit. Brad Bird should have made the spirit. Raimi should have made the shadow. Raimi is a big shadow.

[00:34:06] Whatever, whatever. Brad Bird should do a Spider-Man movie. I mean, Brad Bird. Someone would be ideal for a movie like that. Or Fantastic Four. Also, someone would do a Spider-Man movie where he's finally gay because hello, he's so gay. He's fairly... Well, I mean, okay, well actually...

[00:34:19] I want to hear the take. Give me the take. It's just an instinct. I don't have any science to hide. Spider-Man, he's like a queen. I'm looking at things with Mary Jane and I'm like, because he's gay. He's just pinging for you. Yeah. He's gay.

[00:34:33] But we don't have to go there when I'm out of her or anything. Whereas like I feel like Batman like many as superheroes is fairly asexual. Batman especially though because Batman's relationship with women is always sort of like... Well, except for... My favorite Batman moment,

[00:34:47] which is in Batman Forever when Nicole Kidman pulls the bat signal from... Summons him to her roof. Yes. And just shows up in like a negligee age like so. Batman's like, what the fuck? That's insane character. Dr. Chase Meridian. Dr. Chase Meridian. The IDB trivia page says,

[00:35:04] like fun fact, the name Dr. Chase Meridian is a play on the fact that she is chasing Batman. Yes, she is. And she's... I mean, it sounds like a geometry book name, but it's fine. It's good. It's hot. She's great. She's great.

[00:35:20] Remember when superhero movies were about sex appeal? She's the only girlfriend character whoever got billing in those first four movies. You know what I mean? Like Elle McPherson or I guess Basinger's... Basinger's above the title. But not in the poster. Yes. But she does get... Basinger's pretty high.

[00:35:37] Yes. And I guess Catwoman... Catwoman kind of can have a say. Yeah. We'll get to that next episode. Yeah, I can't wait. But they're just pushing this uphill, uphill. No one's buying it. No one's getting it. People go, what if you did this and said,

[00:35:49] what if you did the Bill Murray version? What about this? And they're like, we need a vision. We need someone who can sell this. Sure. And this executive at Warner Brothers, whose name I'm forgetting was the one who saw Tim Burton short films

[00:35:59] and like brought him into Warner Brothers and was like, you're a fucking director. And Burton has said, like not even as a joke, it was more difficult for me getting hired to like restaurant jobs in high school than it was getting films

[00:36:12] because this woman was such a champion in me early on. That she was like, we want you here. You clearly have a voice and a vision and all of this. OK. So he makes Pee Wee. And then after Pee Wee, she recommends to Goober and Uzzalana

[00:36:26] and Melnickr and all these people. You should check out this Burton kid. So he's already sort of talking about Batman before Beetlejuice. The movie doesn't get green lit until after Beetlejuice does well. Batman being made was conditional on Beetlejuice performing well

[00:36:40] because they had so little faith in a Batman movie that they were like, we need to make sure the director has a good track record. Right. OK. I mean. Well, I'm glad that Beetlejuice. I mean, Beetlejuice is another classic. Man, you're really clear.

[00:36:51] How did you come up Burton? Yeah, I was just about to say. You're here. You're on board. Yeah. I was just about to say it's really clarifying for me the extent to which he owned my child. Really? So between the two Batman, Beetlejuice and Edward Cisarhan.

[00:37:04] Yeah, that was yeah. You're Pee Wee guy? Not as much. My mom had weird feelings about Pee Wee that that panned out a little bit. Sure, she was suspicious of Pee Wee. She had a feeling, so she kept me away from that. But I was literally,

[00:37:16] she didn't keep me away from like Batman Returns and the kinks off of that. She literally is just like a vibe about Pee Wee. Well, to be fair also, the penguin never got caught masturbating in a kid. So, you know, your mother's predictions born out.

[00:37:27] It's true. No, she had a good instinct. But yeah, Tim Burton really owned my life as a kid. Wow. Yeah, I mean, he was like the guy and there's something to the fact that he kind of hit so like fully formed.

[00:37:38] Which I think only happens when there is sort of like a guardian angel figure like this, like an executive who's like, you weird bird come into my nest. I will like shield you. And that he like, it built in just the right way.

[00:37:53] Like each film got a little bigger. But it is crazy that this is his third movie and I had always gone like, wait, so how did he get hired on Batman? When it's actually the reverse, which is like they were so skittish

[00:38:04] about the idea of making a Batman movie that it wasn't until they had a director with such a clear voice that they were like, okay, I think I can see what it is. You've got to take, we can figure this out now.

[00:38:12] Right. So then he comes in with, right. You know just Batman's sister hands is three years. Like I know it's not. 1889-90. Yeah. Can Scorsese top that? I don't think so. Well, how do you feel about Burton now?

[00:38:24] Do you just sort of ignore him at this point or? So the other thing I was thinking was how am I going to explain to my kids like why I was obsessed with Tim Burton? Yeah. Because if you're looking at his track record,

[00:38:34] the majority of the output I would say is not great for me. Right. But also still weird. I don't know like the Alice in Wonderland movies are... He only did the first one. He only did the first one.

[00:38:48] Yes, but I feel like they all sort of took what he did and ran with it. They're a crime, but there's no one else doing that. I agree with that. Like I hate those movies and they feel like being stabbed in the eyes

[00:39:01] but also they're not generic half of them. They're not generic at all. How do you feel about your big eyes, you know the smaller Burton efforts? You're Sweeney Todd. Who are your eyes? If Tim Burton's ever in the Oscar conversation, I don't think I'm interested.

[00:39:16] Big eyes, that was sort of right. So you don't want to see prestigious Burton? I don't want to see prestige from anyone. Fair enough. Good point. Particularly no, not from Edward Scissorhands. Sure. I mean ideally, right, these sort of judging bodies

[00:39:32] would see what's worthwhile in those movies as they are. You want your Burton off the leash. You don't want to see him restrained. Johnny Depp should definitely have got a Oscar nomination for Edward Scissorhands. No one else is doing any shit like that. Well, that is indisputable.

[00:39:45] I mean again, those early and up to Edward. To me. Edward, yes. Pretty perfect. Yes. And Edward such a perfect, like taking what he's great at and taking his personal passions and making a like prestige friendly movie but still making a weird fucking movie.

[00:40:02] We're moving in a celebration of things that Hollywood does not care about. No, and to call my shot for my take on the Edward episode that you'll listen to in a couple of weeks, I think the kinship he feels in Edward is like

[00:40:16] a lot of the choices he's making in Batman are like as insane as the choices Edward makes except they actually work. Yeah. Like the key distinction is like they're both guys just like following their instincts and their passion and their own like muses except somehow

[00:40:30] Burton's sensibilities line up with the culture and connect because like hiring Michael Keaton as Batman is similar to hiring like the chiropractor who you think could double for Bella Lagossee. Sure. And that's his whole thing is he just goes like Beetlejuice, this is my guy, the eyes.

[00:40:45] And they announce that Keaton's playing Batman and everyone flips the fuck out. It's the front page of the Wall Street Journal is Batman fans fear the jokes on them. And it was this piece of they hadn't started production. Not a bad headline. Not a bad headline.

[00:40:57] It's pretty good. Like you could see the Gotham Globe publishing that. Right. And Michael Usland who is like leading the charge for like we're going to bring back the legitimacy of Batman right is now being met with like a bunch of fans

[00:41:09] saying like great, it's another Adam West situation. Sure. Usland said when they pitch it to him he thought it was a joke. He's a stand up. He's Mr. Moss. Right. Right. He's night shift. He's kind of glib. I mean what's kind of good about Batman though

[00:41:20] is that it's not not Adam West. Right. It's just gothic. It's just Tim Burton. Right. And that's the lane this one's in and then right when we get to the Schumacher movies, the whatever you the tones aren't matching as well anymore. I do. I do.

[00:41:33] I do like Batman Forever. I have to say that forever is fantastic. I love that movie. Oscar nominated film Batman Forever. But best cinematography. Yeah, I know. Right. Which sometimes they're really onto something. Beautifully shot. Costumes got robbed. That's all right.

[00:41:46] It was only for Best Dry Ice of course. It wasn't. It was for Best Dry Ice. Best McDonald's. Best You Sub Dry Ice. I love McDonald's Cups. I love those. Those Cups work great. I will say that's the best thing that came out of the movie. Absolutely.

[00:41:56] The Cups in the Soundtrack. Commercials and that that might be all. Yeah. And I, the Danny Elfin score for Batman is extremely good and iconic and perfect superhero theme songs. Exactly. The LA Golden Thall themes are really good too. Batman Forever soundtrack is insane and wonderful

[00:42:13] and it's just basically like screaming horns and oh my god. And he's also a weird twist because he didn't do movies like that ever again. He was like a weird opera guy. Like basically. But it was the same thing where Elfin was like that doesn't

[00:42:25] seem like a guy who's in line with superheroes. But then he became that guy. Right. Elfin becomes the sort of like, you have Elfin at call, he'll figure it out. Sort of like if John Williams is unavailable, like Elfin will write you a superhero theme.

[00:42:36] But that feels like another gonzo choice for Burton, which is like okay I know you like Don't Go Bungo and you hire them to do the scores for your two comedy pictures. You're like weird out there comedy pictures. Right. Like is the Beetlejuice the, you know,

[00:42:48] this sort of weird music does not suggest, but he's so good at writing for a music that sounds like a thing. That's a weak set. Right. We've said this. These sound like the characters' souls. Like they're not just like here's the theme to this movie.

[00:42:59] Here's like what Batman sounds like music. And it's gothic in the way you're talking about. It is. Silly gothic. Like it's perfect for it. But you imagine they were like, okay, haha very funny, let's call Alan Sylvester. Like you're not hiring Elfin for this. The buck stops here.

[00:43:12] Right. And then Elfin just discovered, like he delivers this thing that's like, right that's Batman. That's Batman song. And even like, you know, that they reuse the theme for Batman the Animated Series, but the score, the original score that is so influenced by the Elfin score. Right.

[00:43:28] Because Joanna was like, why do I know this music so well? And I was like, because he watched the cartoon. Right. Right. Because then he used it in Justice League, which was so weird. Really weird. Yeah. Because he was scoring Justice League.

[00:43:37] So he had every right to bring back his Batman theme. Yeah. And he's like, it's like Crescendoing is like Ben Affleck is stomping around and you're like, this is so strange because it's like an echo of an echo. Like we're so far removed. Right.

[00:43:49] If you made this movie now. Yes. Batman fans, all those nerds would revolt. They would be like, this is too silly and weird. You know what I mean? You can't make this movie after 9-11. Yeah. You can't. 9-11 is just sort of like the point at which

[00:44:03] you can't have fun. Right? I mean, there are enough. It's crazy about the whole pitch being like, we're going to make it really fucking dark. And now like, you know, Nolan stands derisively go like none of that fucking cartoon. Yeah. Right. That was they were saying. Clowning around.

[00:44:18] It's funny because when I, I mean, I think last like two years ago or watched Dark Knight and I was like, oh, Nolan actually did try to have some campy shit in here. Yeah. It just doesn't land in the way that it does in the Tim Burton universe.

[00:44:30] But I also here he didn't divorce himself from it. There are a lot of story parallels between this and Dark Knight. Oh yes. Like there were a bunch of things I was noticing like tracked on. We're two sides of the same coin.

[00:44:39] We kind of like, we're kind of like each other's best friend in a weird way. And like the Joker art gallery, the museum scene feels a lot like my favorite scene. But that feels like like ledger Joker breaking into the fundraiser party.

[00:44:53] Both of them end with like hanging off the side of the spire. There is all that conversation of them coming head to head. Like there's so many verbal. There's sort of a woman in between. The Joker dies in both. Right. Yes. That's true. Keeps dying. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:45:07] She's one of the smile. I like Chris for Nolan did that. Like between Chris of Nolan killing Michael like Maggie Jelen Hall and Catherine Bigelow killing Jennifer Ely in Zero Dark Thirty. Just two of the worst decisions that directors have made. I think Jennifer Ely is so good.

[00:45:19] And so I blow Jennifer Ely up. I don't care if terrorists did it. You just don't do that. So you just don't do that. It is the hardest hit. Burton's gotten the movie to the green light. He's gotten Keaton on. But then they go like, look,

[00:45:31] the big thing would be if you could get Jack Nicholson. That's the obvious casting choice. But if you can get him like this is really like the air of legitimacy this movie needs. And the idea was it's the same kind of credibility

[00:45:42] that like Marlon Brando lent to Superman the movie, except he's really going to be in this movie. It's not just like a little cameo where he's reading off a cue cards for two days, you know. As Marlon was known to do. Because I apparently Tim Burton's first choice

[00:45:56] unsurprisingly for Tim Burton was he wanted Tim Curry and Tim Curry passed because he was like, I've done too many things like this. Lithgow was considered James Woods. People who play villains, you know. But I think Warner said like,

[00:46:08] let's go for the brass ring and see if we can get Nicholson. Burton also argued for Brad Durif in the studio was like, no, thank you. This is a lot of guys who like right have gotten best supporting actor nominations or like Hollywood creeps.

[00:46:22] You know, but they were like, what if we could get a legitimate movie star and that makes us a totally different type of movie? And Nicholson is apparently like the thing they say about him is like it's all about the director with him.

[00:46:33] If you trust the director, he'll do anything. And he sits down with Burton, even though he's this weird introverted like 33 year old man, he's like, it's got a vision. And he's like, I'll do it. I'll do whatever the fuck this kid wants.

[00:46:44] I'll be the Joker for the low, low price of six million dollars and a huge cut of the profit. He ends up for a long time and maybe still adjusted for inflation. It was the most money any actor in the world.

[00:46:55] Million dollars is what he made on this movie pre inflation. Like yeah, none of it went to waste. The big thing he got was he got a percentage of any merchandise sold with the Joker on it or in it.

[00:47:07] And what's crazy about that is none of the Joker stuff really looked like him. Like it was more, it looked like... It's just the comic book Joker. The patch on the jacket. Yeah, right. The classic sort of thin faced Joker.

[00:47:18] Right, it's just sort of smile and green hair guy. It wasn't really accurate to him, but he made so much fucking money off of it. Everyone was making good business decisions for this movie. It's true. I mean it's like Star Wars where it's like

[00:47:29] the studio learns the lesson and never happens again. It's the same thing, right? Whereas the studio this time is like, I don't know Batman, is that even gonna work? Right. And then for the shadow they're like, you sign on for four sequels right here

[00:47:40] and we get all the merchandise. Like you know, like or whatever. But you have Sam Ham writes the script that I feel like one of the things I really keyed into watching it this time is like you can watch this movie

[00:47:50] and imagine the very conventional version of this script. Sure, absolutely. Because it hits very traditional sort of like 80s 90s blockbuster beats. And it's like this movie could have looked like lethal weapon too. Like there's no reason. It's not baked into the script

[00:48:04] that it has this aesthetic in this vibe. For sure because it's mostly just set in like alleyways and a plant. Yeah, yeah. And William Scarehan who wrote Beetlejuice. Lauren Scarehan, sorry. Warren. Warren Scarehan. Good God. They brought on mostly to rewrite the third act is what they said

[00:48:18] and then he really kind of dug into the psychology of the whole thing. But you have the elements like the Robert Wolk character who feels like he's traditional comic relief and Beverly Hills cop or whatever. Like he's the guy in the office, you know?

[00:48:30] But they kind of let Burton to his own devices. Like now after all this like battle to get the movie up and running and everything, it was the most expensive movie Warner Brothers has ever made. It was like the largest sets that had ever been built.

[00:48:42] They filmed the whole thing in London. They got top of the line. Like. My first shot with the big map painting of like Gotham and the street is such a like, you know, here's what we're doing. Like such a great announcement. Well just these things.

[00:48:54] For the whole vibe. They really smartly reuse a couple sets where you're like they made like four massive pieces. Because there's a big like Gotham square set that they keep going back to. There's the staircase where all the test conferences have and they're sort of the one alleyway.

[00:49:09] That staircase is so cool. But they're so fucking big and he shoots them in a way with a sense of grandeur. I mean, he also, you know, he embellishes them with like map paintings and with model transitions and things like that.

[00:49:20] But you see people standing on these wide shots and you're like this feels like a real fucking city. It doesn't look realistic, but it feels fully imagined because of the scope of it and the size of any amount of extras you have

[00:49:33] and the amount of fog you have. It's kind of an ideal little movie universe, which is something that superhero movies don't have right now to be honest. Marvel movies kind of take place in the real world. Yeah. I mean, and even just like the Gotham of today

[00:49:47] is just not, I mean, it's Chicago or whatever. It's like not. You're right. It's not Gothic. That's kind of Nolan's play which we've talked about. That's right. Let's just make it a city, which is fine. I mean, again, and of course he's responding to this movie

[00:50:00] and like other people were responding to Nolan's movie and like these things always sort of swing back and forth. When he was responding to Schumacher as well, he's responding to a Gotham where like every road is being supported by like an Atlas statue. Right? Yeah. But like...

[00:50:13] I'll meet you on Atlas Highway. It's just like fucking Iron Land City. There's subway stations up there? Yeah, the subway stations in like a revolving globe. In the globe? Oh, absolutely. No, but there is the thing like you look at like all three Thor movies struggle to make...

[00:50:33] Why am I fucking forgetting the name? What's Thor's home called? Asgard. They struggle to make Asgard feel like any real society. Yes. Yeah, Asgard feels like a town in Thor. Right. Which is of trouble when you get to the third Thor movie

[00:50:48] and Asgard gets destroyed and you're like, oh, what are the Asgardians gonna do? And it's like, were they on a planet? Where are they... How seismic is this? Because they always just seem like a big palace in some, you know, in a little town.

[00:50:59] They only kind of established like three parts of it and you don't really understand like the infrastructure of the city and you're like, are they all Goths? Are they all Goths? Are they all Goths? Do they have Goths? Like what if you're a Gothman?

[00:51:09] But right, you have to like be a sanitation worker like an accountant or something. Right, and it's not like I want script like explaining this. Yeah, no. Asgard's weird. Asgard seems like... You just got world building, which you can do sort of subtextually just through

[00:51:21] like, you know, art dressing and all that sort of stuff. What, like a you are here map? I would love one of those that came when you bought your ticket, you got to open it up and see the layout of it like a mall. Ping your location Thor.

[00:51:34] Tell me where we are. But even I think the biggest comparison point is like Wakanda's the closest that anyone's come to doing this in the modern era because Nolan's Gotham is so much riffing on real American cities. Sure. That Wakanda feels like the most fully realized

[00:51:47] like totally its own place. But I think it is hamstrung by some degree to the fact that it is so much like CGI augmented back lots in Atlanta. That's always the problem, you know? It's always tell you in Atlanta somehow.

[00:52:00] You can always tell they're in a in a parking lot in Atlanta. That museum that Michael B. Jordan robs that's like the Museum of Great Britain is like some Atlanta museum. Like anyone who lives in Atlanta knows that museum. And like I think that movie is unbelievably

[00:52:13] well designed and I do think that's one where you watch it. Every time you're on a real location in that movie it looks good. The problem is more when it's just sort of you're in a nowhere location that's been embellished. But even like the waterfall location is great.

[00:52:26] So what I was going to say is the waterfalls all set and when they cut to the other side facing over sort of the cliff then it's all CGI goop. And it does fall apart a little bit. Those scenes are excellent.

[00:52:39] But in this movie like you see one side and it's a massive wall and then when they cut to the reverse it's another fucking massive wall. And you're like this just feels whole. And this movie has one of my favorite Psych Out openings ever. Where I just love-

[00:52:53] Oh where you think it's gonna be the Batman origin cause the guy's robbing. I love when a movie can be like make you think that you're smarter than the movie and then pull the wool out from under you where it's like you make the whole audience

[00:53:06] get cocky and you're like, okay that's the Batman origin story. Here's a couple they're going into the dark alley. There's a kid yeah. But then it kind of ruined every rendition of that story. Right. You don't need to do it ever again.

[00:53:16] Cause like the first one was a joke so the rest of them have to be earnest. They do do it again and but right it's much more in this movie like it's just not played operatically. When so many other things in this movie are

[00:53:30] the robbery scene with like the young Jack Nicholson guy who's weird that guy's face is fucking frightening. He looks more like Bob Geldof. Sure. And it's tough when you have an actor who has been famous for that long and we know exactly what Jack Nicholson looked

[00:53:45] and sounded like at that age. I don't think it's a problem because I think he's sort of transfixing to look at but yeah, certainly you know what Jack Nicholson looks like as a kid though. I thought that was his face. The problem is that Nicholson's head

[00:53:58] is so goddamn square. Yeah Nicholson's got a weird head. But when that's, you know, that seems upsetting the parents get shot or whatever but it's also kind of the pearls right. But then that, you know, he grabs the pearls right

[00:54:11] and then by the time you get to the Snyder movie it's like the gun gets like caught on the pearls and like the cartridge ejects in the pearls everywhere. It's fucking sexual. What do the pearls look like from above? I don't know, you tell me. Looking down.

[00:54:25] Remember the shot? It's like a moving all around the camera. That matters. Yeah. Yeah when Ben and I saw Batman V Superman 4DX I saw it when he was here. I didn't see it with you. We really stuck with it.

[00:54:35] We saw it in 4DX and like for all the canted angles that like crazy like the chair would match the canted angles. Are you serious? Yeah. Wow. So it would shift to the canted angle of like the pearls falling off.

[00:54:48] I couldn't do that for two and a half hours. It was rough. I had back problems by the end of it because it's like every time Batman Superman punched each other the chair would punch you. I don't like that. We've already looked at this on a previous episode.

[00:54:57] No, 4DX is a little bit but I'm not a 4DX rule. The chair gives you an option if you want it wet or not. This is always my thing when anyone's like we fixed movies and I'm like didn't need fixing

[00:55:06] I just sit in the chair and look at it. That's fine. You say that but you haven't seen Ben is back in 4DX and that thing really it makes the movie sing and when I read all these like sort of apathetic pans of Ben is back, I'm like

[00:55:17] but you haven't really seen the movie. No, I agree. Matches by the C4DX was great. It was great. You could feel Michelle Williams swampering on me. For the listener at home. There's a snot no snot button. For listener at home, David just mined the seat compressing.

[00:55:33] Yeah, what if that's just that your seat just slowly deflates. Slow movie. Slow shoulders. Then in case you have a go, I can't do it. I just can't do it. And that's it. You got to go. I can't beat this. I can't beat this. Can't beat this. Batman.

[00:55:49] Be weird if he was Batman. Yeah. He would be a Robin. Yeah, he could be a Robin. He would. Or he could be like the Ridler or whatever. So you get the psych out which then leads to like one of the things

[00:56:03] I love about this movie is like you set up this weird like retro futuristic. Like it's not quite steampunk, but it's like this modern like 1920s art deco New York. Yeah. But like the... What come on? What's the guy's name? First and first. Right. The production designer.

[00:56:24] Who won an Oscar. Right. Unbelievable work on this movie. For this? Yes. Wow. See sometimes they get it right. They do. I think it was one of those things kind of undeniable. Who are they going to vote for? And he's sort of weird and tragic, right?

[00:56:37] Because he's like an amazing... He did the company in the Neil Jordan movie, the company of wolves, which is like a beautiful and strange thing. They're not saying that. He did Full Metal Jacket. He did this and then he died of like an overdose by mistake.

[00:56:52] Like you know, he like took some sleeping pills. Yeah. And like that was that. And then I think Bow Welch does Returns. Is that right? I believe that's right. Because Bow Welch starts with Scissorhands. Right, right. I believe. Anyway, but it's such an amazing production design job.

[00:57:07] Of course he did Beelgeuse too, but I believe Bow Welch did. Sure, but whatever. Like the first... First Dyson between the two bad ones. Has the idea of what Gotham looks like here. He's the sort of leader of a great career, I have to say.

[00:57:17] He does kind of get the budget that no one in his position had ever gotten before. Right, sure. Cause once they were like committed to making this movie, they were like we're going to go all out and it's going to feel like the biggest movie

[00:57:26] ever made, which part of that was the marketing and all the merchandising, the tie-ins and prints and all of that. But part of it was just like the scope of the thing itself. Which is strange if you watch it today because movies are so...

[00:57:38] This is how big my nuts are about everything right now. Right, right. This actually seems like very intimate. That's a story. The script is very intimate. There's basically five characters. Right. And the stakes are pretty low. It's got like two action sequences. Yeah. A lot of dialogue.

[00:57:55] And a parade. It's got a parade. One of the biggest sequences is painting thrown onto like Rembrandt. Right? But that's one of the things is that every small piece of it looks so big. Yes. Is invested with so much like time and money and energy and artistry

[00:58:12] and all of that. And you really have a sense of like, I mean this is a place that I want to come back to in movies. Like this is a Gotham that I can just, there's always going to be some fuck shit in Gotham based on this movie.

[00:58:20] Which I think when this movie came out and was like the biggest film in years and years and years, even the critics who didn't like it were like the scripts for a generic or like I can't recommend seeing this thing at theaters enough. Who didn't like it?

[00:58:32] What did Ebert say? Like Ebert didn't like it. Ebert didn't like it, but he was like... Ebert liked Crash. Love him. RIP. But he also I think took a minute to sort of come around to this kind of a movie. Yes. Right?

[00:58:45] I feel like he was just kind of resistant to this stuff. His line was, I don't understand the characters. I think the movies half baked. I think the script is nothing to write home about. But I cannot recommend seeing this movie in theaters strongly enough

[00:58:58] because Gotham is one of the greatest creations in the history of cinema. Yeah. I believe that was his exact line. You're right. It's all about the architecture. He also, he lavishes a fair amount of praise on Nicholson. Oh good. But then he's like, but they're caricatures.

[00:59:12] I don't care about their relationship. You know, he just complains about like they're thinly sketched. You know, he gave it like two stars. I mean, that's true. Yeah. Roger, come on man. He was big on like accusing Tim Burton of like chocolate Easter Bunny syndrome.

[00:59:26] It was like, it looks great. It tastes great. There's nothing inside of it. You know, he'd be like, this guy is just, I just coined that. This is a Kinder egg. You know what I mean? They are. There is something inside of it. That's what I'm saying.

[00:59:36] Chocolate Easter buddies are amazing. They are. They're great. What is he talking about? They're made of chocolate. Right. Literally what needs to be inside of it. Exactly. I coined that. That's not his slam. Okay. But I would say, I don't think that's a bad thing.

[00:59:50] First of all, I think of a thing looks that good and tastes that good. Yes. It has its own value even if it doesn't have deeper meaning. But I also do think this movie is a Kinder egg and there is some stuff inside. There's some stuff inside. Yeah.

[01:00:01] And it's not banging you over the head with it, I think. It's fun. Or maybe are we just like, are we also curious? Are we so beaten down by everything that's happened so soon? I was about to say, is this just the blues of like,

[01:00:10] I've seen Justice League, I've seen Suicide Squad. 100%. Right. Watching this movie now is right. It's just sort of, it's like a wonderful little curio. It's just so streamlined. Like Suicide Squad is just like, who the fuck are these people? Like what am I supposed to be?

[01:00:22] It's brand management. It's just not a movie. And this is a movie that's like, largely just concerned with this one movie. And it's like, this is we're gonna get Batman and the Joker correct on screen. What happens after this? Who knows, you know? And it's good. Yeah.

[01:00:37] I mean, can I say, this is like sort of like a tangent, but can I just say that as a child, one of the most horrifying things that I've ever seen in a movie or anything. And I was terrified by a lot of things like thriller, et cetera.

[01:00:47] But the reverse application of makeup on the Joker, the idea that he had to put on skin color, fucked me up. And he's really fucked me. Somehow freakier looking without, you know, quote unquote with the regular, right, without the white makeup in the green hair.

[01:01:04] He looks weird when he's just grinning like that. I just found that so uncanny as a child and just as a concept. It's like so simple. There is the thing that Tim Burton taps into, which is like, you know. Fear of clowns. Fear of clowns,

[01:01:17] which he taps into a lot over and over again. No, but I do think there's the thing that like, many smarter people have written about this, I can't think of anyone to specifically quote here. But the notion that like movies are closer

[01:01:32] to dreams than any other art form in terms of how we watch them and the way you're able to play with sort of logic gaps, you know? Rather than a play, which is by like definition pretty like literal and linear because you're seeing it on a stage.

[01:01:45] You can sort of mess with the sound and the structure and the rhythms and all these sorts of things with movies and create this dream like logic. And while not being like as like Outra as like David Lynch, there are things in Burton movies,

[01:01:57] especially like this one that are really small where you're like, I don't know why that's so upsetting. Yes. But something about it like really kind of fucks with you and it's like when you wake up in the morning you're trying to explain to someone. Yes.

[01:02:09] And you're like, the makeup was backwards, you know? Yeah, it's just weird. It's just weird. And there's like one, there are a thousand things in this movie that like sort of like stick in my mind. I mean, I didn't see this movie until after I'd started

[01:02:21] getting deep into Burton, which was like post Mars attacks. Oh wow. Okay. Another classic. Right. And cause my parents were like, we don't let Griff see action movies. Like anything. But they knew you liked fucking comic books. I didn't yet. That's the thing.

[01:02:36] Let you start with Mars attacks. I know. Because I've told this story, I will tell a story on the Mars attacks except so my dad really wanted to see Mars attacks. So he was like, I got the kids, you know?

[01:02:45] He had to sort of rope Griffin in almost because he was like he cut school to see that movie. I mean, I was just not going to have it. I was not going to have it any other way. I was going to leave school

[01:02:54] or I was going to like be allowed to leave school. Thank God. I mean, that trailer is just. Oh yeah. No, my dad, my dad worked a lot. My mom was more hands on during the week and so the weekend would be like,

[01:03:06] you got to do stuff with the boys. Yes. And so sometimes there would be the like, my dad wants to see this movie. So he'll be like, it's fine. You won't be freaked out by it. Yeah. And I had that weird sort of like response

[01:03:16] to Mars attacks and then started going deep into all of his movies. And Batman was something I hadn't been allowed to see. I guess Batman and Robin is the year after Mars attacks. Batman and Robin is 97. Yes. Right. But I didn't see Batman or Batman returns

[01:03:31] until after I'd seen Batman and Robin. Oh, wow. So I loved Batman and Robin because I was like, oh, a Batman movie. This is great. Yeah. Forever was the first Batman movie I saw in theaters. But no, I had seen Batman. Yeah, I'd seen this.

[01:03:42] But my parents didn't let me like read comic books or watch superhero shows when I was growing up because they were like too violent. My mom specifically was the one. So it was like that was sort of my activation moment. We're like at that age where other kids

[01:03:54] are starting to phase out of it, I started going really deep into it, which was really good for my social life. I have to say Batman and Robin killed Batman for me. It really did really. That's the thing. It did that for everyone else.

[01:04:05] And that was my entry point. And did he ever come back for you or by the time Nolan's bringing him around, do you care? By the dark night because I actually, I didn't really warm to the first Nolan movie.

[01:04:13] I just like if you grow up on like the Tim Burton ones. Yeah. The first Nolan, Batman begins is just not, there's just not much color. I have the exact opposite thing. Yeah. It's like I was just, I was like, I needed,

[01:04:26] I actually like by that time was like, all right, I could use a little poison ivy actually making out with people to kill them. I could actually use some of that in this movie. But you know, Burton is wild to me because you're right.

[01:04:38] There are always these details that sort of fuck with you. Yeah. Like even just I remember when Edward's sister's hands came out, like there was that moment I remember thinking this is like watch the first time where it was like, so his hands are scissors.

[01:04:50] So whatever he touches, he's going to cut. Right. So and now he has a girlfriend. What's this going to do? The first time I saw that movie, I was like so fucking nervous the entire time because it was just like this is like wet like dynamite. Like what?

[01:05:03] Yeah. Like something is going to go fucking wrong and there's something so primal about these like things that he comes up with. I think it is very keyed into him being an animator. Yes. You know, and that he sort of like has that sort of

[01:05:15] like track of imagination where he like thinks of the imagery first and then figures out how to commit it. Right. To, you know, to camera. But I also look at this movie and it's like this is very much a film directed by an animator

[01:05:29] in that like the the shot sequencing is very deliberate. Yes. It's not fast cutting. The only time the fast cutting comes into play is during Batman hand to hand combat scenes because they have to cut around the fact that he can't move. Yeah.

[01:05:42] Which I think he does really well by mixing up the angle. His physicality is kind of amazing though. Right. Where you're like, oh my God, he can't fucking turn one part of his body without turning the whole body.

[01:05:52] Because he just becomes like in his dry land or something. Right. He's like a statue. There's no joints. Right. The power becomes from how still he is. Yes. And then the fight scenes are so sort of abstract. But the fight scenes are so basic. Yes.

[01:06:06] Like and not in a complaint. It's weird how it doesn't matter. Doesn't matter at all. It doesn't matter. He just drops in kind of kicks you. That's it. You know the bit where like the sort of like ninja goon comes in and does all the martial arts? Right.

[01:06:18] Batman was supposed to do like, like, you know, shot for shot. Like, you know. Yeah. I mean there's some of that. He's, see that one. But they got set and they were like he can't move. So that one becomes the guy has to run all the way up

[01:06:29] to him and then they like really pop in for like the impacts. But he can't like walk forward and fight. And they had like specific guys where they're like, this is our kicking Batman. This is our punching Batman. This is our flying Batman.

[01:06:43] Because like the suit was so difficult that they had to train guys specifically, like you just need to figure out how to do this one thing and make it look fluid. Keaton is literally like lit Batman. Yes. He's lit Batman. He's pretty much right. That's his job. Right.

[01:06:56] And he was like the suit was a fucking nightmare. I bet. Gave me a migraine all the time. I'm super claustrophobic. And he said that the thing that Nicholson said to him in the in the chair when they were like both getting made up

[01:07:08] is like, this is great. We don't even have to act at all. Right. The costume does it all for us. And it was like easy for you to say. Right, right. But Keaton had this breakthrough. That's just so funny though because Nicholson's doing so much beyond the costume.

[01:07:21] Right. That's what's crazy about him being like, I don't have to do anything. Sure. I could have stayed home. He really was having a time of his life. He looks like he's having so much fun. It's perfect. It like never looks like there's a gun pointed at him

[01:07:33] or he's like walking off set and being like, where's my money? You know, like. So a lot of the stuff I'm pulling from the context when they like the the peak of special edition DVDs in like the mid 2000s before the Nolan came about. Maybe it's 2004.

[01:07:51] They did like special editions of all four these original the Michael Guff Batman quadrilogy. Right? Right, right. The Pat Hengel Michael Guff films. So Pat Hengel, he's in The Grifters the next year, which is so scary and you know, it feels like the role he's made for.

[01:08:07] No, that's the thing. He's like a Chicago heavy guy. Right? He's good in this. He's so good in this, but it's so funny to think how it's so different than straight face. He is in this one other interpretation of Gordon. Right. Yes. Right.

[01:08:17] But then like he's playing Gordon in Batman and Robin where he's like, oh, poison Ivy. And he's like horny. Like, you know, it's like it's the same actor. Yes. And he was just like, when do you need me to be there? It is still pays to under grand.

[01:08:31] Those are the only two through lines for these four films. Right. But it kind of makes them a loose like chronology. Even though the world like transforms like crazy. Right. Right. But what was the thing I was saying? Oh, when they released all four of them,

[01:08:47] they did this like 10 part documentary where there were like two parts on each of the movies. Maybe they're three or four on the first one and two on the following ones called like shadows of the bat. And they do all these interviews

[01:09:00] and they got everyone to come back and like Nicholson sat down 2004 and did a bunch of DVD interviews, which feels like the kind of thing you wouldn't expect him to do. Sure. He's always surprising us like that. Right. And he's just like excited about random things.

[01:09:10] And he likes Burton. I mean, he did a lot of tax, you know? Yes. He's wearing a Batman pin and a purple shirt and he's talking about how much he loved the Joker. Right. He was like, they offered me this part and I said it's a slam dunk.

[01:09:22] And he was like went to a whole theory about how he like realized from when he was like a struggling actor and he would do like children's theater and stuff. How much kids liked being scared and how much the more scared they are, the more fun they have.

[01:09:36] And he really liked the idea of like being able to use Joker as a vehicle for that. And he was like, Joker is just the greatest character of all time. I mean, just that name, the Joker. And he won't stop talking about how just jazzed

[01:09:48] he was to do this. But then the crazy thing was he came to them and he was like, I will so do it. Beef up my part. I'll do anything. I'm going to be so committed to this. Here are my two things.

[01:09:58] A, you have to give me all the money in the world. Right. Which is usually how Nicholson plays it. Right. I'm happy to do it for lots of money. Other crazy thing is Jack Nicholson is really allergic to spirit gum. OK.

[01:10:10] Which especially at this point in time is like. That's how you get shit on their faces. The key ingredient to prosthetic makeup jobs. And they had to like completely rewrite all the rules of makeup for this. They were just like, I don't know if it could be done.

[01:10:23] And what do they do? They just did crazy shit. Like it's stuff that like no one replicated ever again because it's like so much more risky. But they just came up with all these new alternative like adhesives and different types of, you know.

[01:10:38] Like he couldn't they couldn't use any of the materials they usually use. And they found workarounds and there are all these designs you see where they were like we came up with the most extreme version of it looking like the comic.

[01:10:48] We came up with the version that looks most like Jack Nicholson. And we started, you know, at the bottom and went as far as we could go until you started losing Jack. Right. And that's kind of the key to this performance is like

[01:11:01] he's really in it, but he's still Jack Nicholson. And he's writing this perfect line where it's like a movie star performance. He's doing everything you like about Jack Nicholson, especially at the beginning when he's Jack Napier. And this is just like classic scumbag Jack Nicholson.

[01:11:15] And so few lines. Right. Yeah. But it's like right. I didn't know. Yeah. I didn't say that as a kid. His shit with the cards. I didn't ask. That's why I learned that. Oh my God. You're so cheeky. It's another way of putting it.

[01:11:29] But it's like him in like a Chinatown Ask Mil, you know, but he's playing like a five easy pieces type of asshole. Yeah, he's an asshole. It's combining these different types of things, you know. And then once he goes into Joker,

[01:11:42] it doesn't feel like he's being too protective of his brand, but he's also bringing everything you want out of the idea. Jack Nicholson is the Joker. This movie is very well constructed. Like just that all you need, he falls into the vat of Joker chemicals, whatever.

[01:11:55] All you need to the surgery scene, you don't even see his face. Yeah. His laughter is just the laughter, the way that stage. Another thing that's super creepy we get it and you don't see his face for so long. Yeah, of course. That scene is phenomenal.

[01:12:05] Like, right, you know, and at no point does he need to give any more monologues or explain anything about why he suddenly is buying a lot of like no punching. Yeah, the car this is like stunt casting done right. The characterization is flowers.

[01:12:20] Jack Nicholson, like the movie starts and Jack Nicholson being an asshole. And you go like, cool, I know everything I need to know about this. No, totally. It's Jack Nicholson in Batman. Cool, got it. So when he turns into the Joker, you're like,

[01:12:30] I understand the things that are being mutated by this. I do kind of love like people complained when this movie came out that they gave the Joker too much of like a clear back story and alter ego and original identity

[01:12:43] because they've always been vague about that in the comic book. This is adapted from a comic book. Yes, there are lots of old Batman's where they'd be like, and that's the origin of the Joker. And they always change it five years later,

[01:12:52] someone else would be like, I want to do one and he would write a Joker origin story. Like there's just a lot of them. Yeah, and Killing Joke like gets into like his back story, which was apparently like a big test for this. Burns really liked that. Right.

[01:13:03] Those I forgot to say those are the other two things over the 10 years of development is when Killing Joke happened and when Dark Knight Returns happened, they were able to like go into studios with those books with Tim Burton and his previous films

[01:13:14] and go like, can you see how this would all fit together? But I also like that because every different take on Joker rewrites his backstory, it becomes like the bit in Dark Knight where he keeps on rewriting his own backstory where like none of them have any claim

[01:13:33] to being definitive. And they just all become these different versions of like what could have produced a guy like this? Right. But yeah, I mean, it's very simple. You know, he gets thrown in the vat like in the first 20 minutes.

[01:13:45] Also Batman's not really in the first 20 minutes that much. No, you see him. She shows up one time and says, I'm Batman. Right, which is an incredible sequence because up until the point where he like drops in the background, you think you've watched Bruce Wayne's childhood.

[01:13:59] And that's the moment of the turn. Those thugs who are like weirdly kind of like Matthew feel very not a horror. More than a little messed up. Messed up, but they're very like 80s gutter punk messed up. Right.

[01:14:11] And also they have like a whole like bait and switch that they do. They've got a whole routine where they're like leading him down this alleyway. Yeah. And then like Keaton lands and like comes into frame and just like fucking owns it. Yeah.

[01:14:23] Did you guys I rewatch this like four times last night? That's an exaggeration. I rewatched this like eight times last night. Do you remember Michael Keaton's monologue from when he hosted us now the last time for Birdman? No, no, it's really good. It's my favorite.

[01:14:40] That's not monologues in the modern era, but it's Taren Killham and Bobby Moynihan who are like, you're my childhood favorite actor singing a song trying to convince Michael Keaton to play Batman with them. Like they're like this is our childhood dream.

[01:14:53] And then the second versus Moynihan trying to convince him to play Beetlejuice with them. I love it. And they're just trying to get him to like say the hits and he won't do it. And you see like the two of them as like Joker and

[01:15:04] Penguin and then the two of them. All right. What's going on here? But at the end, like the song's building and they have the whole cast come out as a chorus and Nicholson just goes like enough or Keaton goes like enough and shuts it down and the music

[01:15:15] cuts out and he turns to the one camera that's in a perfect close up and he just clicks right back into it and says I'm Batman. And it's it's like chills because it's like, oh, it's been 30 years and he just turns his head

[01:15:30] and he's right in the eyes are there. He squints in the right way. The face is there. And then he turns back to the other camera and he does it showtime. And there's something like elemental about like his understanding of his body language and the energy he's got.

[01:15:44] We're just from that moment when he grabs the guy and says I'm Batman and the voice isn't like to show him that man. Right. And he the thing he said when he was so freaked out by the suit at first was he just realized I got

[01:15:55] to work this suit, right? Like everything that is restrictive about the suit I have to use as an asset and it becomes that he's like so totemic. Like everything about him feels like so other worldly. And I love the idea in this movie that people

[01:16:09] don't know if he's human or not. Sure. When those thugs find him in the alley and they're like, what is it's a suit? Right. So he is human. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, it's like body armor. You don't get that. Robert Wool when he's like trying to report on

[01:16:22] they're holding up the pictures of like what's literally like a Nosferatu creature. A Batman. Right. Like he's just so like bizarre in this. And then he doesn't really come in his Bruce Wayne until like the 15 minute mark when they go to the party. Right.

[01:16:36] And when he comes in, Picky Vail's like, where's Bruce Wayne? He's like, whatever. And then. But uncarismatic, but he seems so incredibly detached from human reaction. It's also a weird thing. This movie does where it's the only movie in the entire Batman cinematic universe. All the different interpretations.

[01:16:56] I would argue that doesn't make Bruce Wayne hyper infamous. The fact that someone could come up to his party, not know what he looks like. Yeah, like Robert Wool is like, I don't know who went that when he looks right. They don't know his backstory.

[01:17:08] Like she has to research through the files. Yeah. He pulls out the Wayne file from the right, the big library. Right. Like he's not Howard Hughes. He's like some anonymous. He's a local rich guy. He's a local rich guy. Weirdo. Yeah. He's like a name like, oh, right.

[01:17:22] He don't need a lot of money to things. That scene, it sneaks up on him much like his performance where then he follows them in and then he starts throwing out the line and Keaton coming in with the oddball charm. And then he and Vicky Vail are hooking

[01:17:35] up. That's true after that. Yeah. And Alfred's like, hey, hey. Invite her into your life. I do feel like that is sort of the failing with this movie. And I don't blame the movie for this, but it's like the thing that I think

[01:17:52] makes Returns really sing is I'm watching this and I'm like, I don't want to see Batman with like a real person. Yeah. Like especially because Keaton's interpretation is so damaged that you're like, I don't think he can like relate to a human who isn't disassociated in this way.

[01:18:08] Sure. Who isn't like this traumatized? What is Vicky Vail? I don't know this. What is Vicky Vail's like life in the comics? She was a reporter who was like a love interest sometimes. Yeah. She's just like a lowest lane. Batman doesn't really have. She had like a...

[01:18:21] Yeah, but she's like a sub lowest lane. Like she's not that crucial to the Batman universe. That's the other thing. The key difference is that like Superman has lowest lane and Batman has like 10 or 12 characters like that over the history of the comics. Right.

[01:18:34] I mean Batman's real girlfriend is Alfred. Like that's the like you need Alfred. His girlfriend, his mother, his father. Exactly. It's on the whole package. And they've gotten so much juice. They make some dinner, gives him a back massage like whatever he needs.

[01:18:47] They've gotten so much juice off the catwoman will they want they for decades because that's the one person where you're like that could maybe work. Is right. That's maybe sustainable. But every other one of these relationships is going to end in flames. He's a fucking Batman.

[01:19:01] Tough to date. He's like psychotic. Yeah. And all these like classic thread to be brought back into the Batman universe. Really like dating. Like well how do they do it? I don't know. Like I mean just why is there no one in these movies who wants to

[01:19:14] sleep with superheroes? Well, that's what Nicole Kim right. Yeah. Like that's so fascinating. She's the only right. She's the only realistic nonhero in these movies to Marie because she's like yeah these are sex symbols. Right. She's like he's like Evan's Captain America and nobody is

[01:19:28] trying to fuck her as Evan's fucking Emily Van Kampus or whatever. But he likes what she's all like the winner soldier. She knows he's gay. Right. Right. Yeah. Spider-Man Captain America. Right. A lot of their love interests are a lot of their love interests

[01:19:43] are also like people they knew before they became super power. Right. Yeah. Someone they've got some like childhood reminisce with like Katie Holmes and right. Flashmate. Jill and Hall. Yeah. About Katie Holmes. Katie Holmes. She's in it. She's like forgot about over that movie. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:19:59] She really tases Killian Murphy. Yeah. In your race. Right. No, you're right. Her big set piece. No, I forgot about her. But that's the big thing is you go like they had like two different actresses play Rachel Dawes and neither of them totally worked.

[01:20:13] Like you just don't want him to end up with also not a good name. No, it's bad. No, it's not a particularly compelling Vicki Vale. I know that Vicki Vale. There's another. Chase Meridian. Chase Meridian. There's another big one from the comics. I'm forgetting who's like

[01:20:25] an amazing name. They brought back. Batman. Hush. Yeah. One of the Batman love interests where the name is like fucking incredible. I will look it up as we're talking about this. But you know, yes. Ben made this joke before we were a cord. But like, you know,

[01:20:40] a complaint about this movie is it's kind of more of a joke or movie than a Batman movie. Certainly that the movie does get a little warped by the fact that you have like a supernova playing the villain. And so it has to like teeter on to him.

[01:20:51] But it does feel like there's a good kind of like cat and mouse back and forth. Yeah. And because of the psychological approach to it and the fact that you see the guy before and the Burton's making this argument that like he was always just

[01:21:03] kind of a fucked up. Yeah. Sadistic guy. And this just gave him the permission to go completely off the hand and go out at night and brutalize criminals. What I like about Burton, though, is that he he's both like the most grotesque of these

[01:21:18] directors and also the least dependent on like it's Freudian. Like here's your backstory. Here's all the psychoanalytic theory you need to understand. Like like, for example, Skyfall is a movie that I can watch any day of the week. But the mommy issues I'm like, I don't know.

[01:21:32] It's a little basic. Right. Like I don't need that. When Burton had said like he was never a huge fan of the comic books, he wasn't a comic book kid. The thing he latched on to was like the way Batman just feels

[01:21:43] like odd and sad and dark is how he felt in like Burbank, California. He's running around in a costume. Right. It's like a rich kid in a mansion who's like, why am I so miserable? Sure. Like, why am I drawn to go out into the like the dark

[01:21:55] alleys of the world? And Alfred's like, look, Vicki Vale, beautiful accomplishment. Batman's like, yeah, I'm going to like lighter her being busy and put on my rubber suit again. That's my move, I think. It's nice that it isn't overstated. Which is a weird thing about

[01:22:11] like Batman Forever where Valkyrie was like, so I had this whole dream. There's literally a bat in it. Yes. Right. Like a huge fuzzy, huge fuzzy bat flapping at the screen. Yep. And then I went crazy and that's why I do what I do. Right.

[01:22:23] Silver St. Cloud is the love interest I was thinking. That's right. Yeah. She's a classic Batman. Right. She's a classic. No, but in Batman Forever, right? He his parents death is this like meatloaf video where it's like there's the like the spinning book that he stops.

[01:22:36] It's like his father's diary and stuff. I would do anything for a while. He really is a it's astonishing. Yeah, I really falling into a pit. I fucking love Batman Forever. I do too. It's like so good. God damn. God, it's so good. Tommy Lee Jones.

[01:22:50] I find it really boring. No, it's like it's like the one and I like I love Batman. I love Batman Returns, but I'd always sort of understood those to be good movies. But Batman Forever was the one where I rewashing as an adult

[01:23:00] and I was like, oh, this is like a movie. This is this is like a stuff happening in this movie. It's an actual piece of filmmaking. I agree. It is actual piece of filmmaking. I will I will give it that. And it also is he's given it that.

[01:23:15] Folks, it's bizarre how much of a left turn it is from all the aesthetics of Schumacher had built up until that point. Sure. Because then that becomes everyone's association with Schumacher. And it's like he was doing like grissom thrillers before that. Right. Yes. Yes.

[01:23:28] He did a time to go. No, it's a movie that could contain that Jim Carrey performance somehow. Right. Right. My favorite thing just in general about the narrative is right, like, you know, Batman Returns was too weird for the studio. So they turned to Schumacher to give

[01:23:40] him just kind of like more of a kid friendly basic thing. Batman Forever is weird in an all entirely different way. OK, first of all, he had never made a kid friendly film up until that point. You don't like get so close. He kills Robin's whole family.

[01:23:54] He's like. With Tommy Guns. But it's like Schumacher's filmography was like Lost Boys. It was like Schumacher's. It's true. These things that like don't show like down the middle like populist filmmaker. And then the other thing is they gave him the job and they were

[01:24:09] like maybe he'll do something like a little more conventional because look like Time to Kill was like pretty. Yeah, he did the client as well. Right. And he like reverted back to all his old like window dresser sensibilities or what he was not Macy's or Bloomingdale's.

[01:24:22] He was the guy who designed the holiday window display as a Bloomingdale's. I didn't know that but that that's his starting. That's up. That's what Batman Forever is. He's like cool, I'm going to make a whole movie that's windows like two faces whole layer. He goes from.

[01:24:35] Oh my god. Sugar and spice layer. Yeah. Right. Debbie Maze aren't true Barrymore. Which is perfect. Which is perfect. Masterpiece. He goes from that. Such a Macy's window. He goes from that to being a screenwriter. He does like DC or writes car wash and he writes the whiz.

[01:24:51] Which felt like car wash. Right. And he wrote the whiz. Right. Like him trying to get his foot into Hollywood. And then once he started directing it was like OK, I'm not going to do that like shopping store window thing. I got to show them I can make

[01:25:01] like a real movie. And then once again Batman, he was like all bets are off. Yeah. I'm back in the window, baby. Well, he talks about in those oral histories of those movies that are really good where he was like we just assumed it was going to flop.

[01:25:14] And like when they got the call where it's like biggest opening weekend of all time. Right. Make another one. He was like really? I did not see that coming at all. They had more masters to serve because at that point that's when like Toyota comes a term

[01:25:25] where they're just like we need more characters. We need more different costumes. We need more gadgets. You know, we've been talking for a good 90 minutes. We haven't really talked about the plot of this movie. We kind of have, I guess. We kind of have.

[01:25:35] And we talked around it. I mean, the scheme is so fucking simple. But he puts poison in the chemicals. He becomes obsessed with trying to make everyone as fucked up as he is. Yeah. So he is like great. Right. He's mauling Jerry Hall

[01:25:51] who I think is pretty engaging in this. I know. And then she kind of had a film career. Shot of her. Yeah. Her head is tilted and she's got the weird mask on is so unsettling. Haunted my childhood. One again. One of those like burnt mask things.

[01:26:03] It's one of those things and a really well timed like cut. And now just married to Rupert Murdoch. Right. Fuck, that's so weird. I know. But where he holds off on showing you her face for a while. So it really builds up in your mind.

[01:26:18] But she has a really engaging screen presence in this and she didn't really do more movies after that. She. I agree. Yeah. She I mean, she in Britain, she was such a big deal because she was a Jagger's partner for like two decades. Right.

[01:26:30] And so she was always in the tabloids and she did like the graduate on stage. Yeah. She played the right. Right. And Robinson. Yeah. But yeah, people who weren't three years old when this came out would watch this and be like, oh, whereas for me it

[01:26:40] was like, man, she was a pretty famous deal. She's a pretty famous super model. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, they think that yeah, she was pretty well known but as an actor, obviously she was mostly not. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Super model who's willing to go ugly for a movie.

[01:26:56] That's true. But but her the whole the whole game in this movie is Smilex. What were you going to say? You just had to talk about Billy D Williams. Well, I'm saving up. Oh, he's in this movie. I'm saving that you're saving that for what? For what?

[01:27:09] Let's talk about it in a second. OK. The hook of this movie is the Smilex thing. Yeah. I do like without them like it being written into the script, the world's greatest detective thing, Keaton plays that really well. Like if so many sequences of

[01:27:22] him just sitting behind the monitors. Yeah. Looking really intently. But like there's not much mystery to be solved. He's yeah, he's good at that. But you get the sense of him really trying to put the puzzle pieces together. The other thing I was taking back with watching this

[01:27:33] movie is it is so fucking dark literally. Yes. Like so often it is almost monochromatic or like sepia toned. Yes. Where like his suit is just black. Unlike the later suits which become glossy. This one's really matte. Yeah. As is the car. The Batmobile is also solid black.

[01:27:52] Right. Like other than when the Joker comes in. The shoe marker Batmobile is like sort of neon influenced. Like it's got a little yeah. And the lightest that Gotham City gets. I do like this too. Yes. The lightest that Gotham City gets is like a dull gray

[01:28:04] or like a murky diarrhea brown. The sun is never up. It's very municipal. No. Yeah. No. Right. It is. Yeah. And it's a yes you're right. It looks half like an industrial plant. Everyone's outfits. I mean they're dressed in like almost like black and

[01:28:16] white sort of like noir outfits. So that when the Joker comes in the colors like really striking which is one of the reasons I think it works that the Joker is that stylized and I know the contrast of it. But like those scenes where he's

[01:28:29] in the Batcave you're just like oh they just painted everything black. Like he's got all these monitors and the chair and the walls and it's all just like straight matte black. No sunlight. No you know Alfred really just has so much to do for this.

[01:28:44] I know there's one moment I love where he's at the Bat computer and it's the one scene where you're like all right this film was made in the 80s and Keaton is wearing a black turtleneck tucked into like really light down. So yes. Yes.

[01:28:58] There's one scene where Batman is wearing jeans and you're like this doesn't feel correct. It's just like Batman and dad jeans. You know Val Kilmer also wears a turtleneck. Is George Clooney like yeah. He has a turtleneck for sure. So really Nolan killed that.

[01:29:12] I guess no one killed the turtleneck. Yeah. That was really the first thing. Yeah. I think that was a mistake. Right. Well because by the time it's Bay and I like definitely it's not wearing a turtleneck. Right. Well you can't fit it in.

[01:29:20] Bayle is either Chris suits or like you know military grade like carbon. Well he's like a defense contractor. Exactly. He's like so. He's so. That's what he's like. He's a defense contractor actually which is not uninteresting. No. No. It's a for sure. Post 9-11 take. That's.

[01:29:38] I have to say 9-11 really like made everything less fun. But that's the stuff he's interesting. Terrorists really did win. In doing is that side. Those sides of Bruce Wayne like yes. Bayle really bites into the shit that was left untouched by Keaton. Yes. Yes.

[01:29:52] And then the Keaton stuff he can't touch. Right. And even like. No one's ever going to get to do that again. No. Like you'll never see a guy like that cast in one of these. Because even when Pratt, Chris Pratt is cast as a superhero. He buffs up.

[01:30:07] He turns into like you know where he smuggles the turkey thighs underneath his clothes. You know what I mean? Like where he's just like everything is so. Even though Keaton's more I think of Keaton and Batman is more of a sex symbol than Chris Pratt and Guardians of

[01:30:20] the Galaxy. Even though Chris Pratt has that sort of shirtless scene in the prison in the first one where it's like yeah you're hot we're going to slow everything down to see your body but it's like no. First of all you were better

[01:30:29] as a chubby guy in Parks and Rack. And second of all it's like it's weirdly not hot. Whereas like Keaton with just his lips. Well I also think. I agree that we should be focusing on the lips. You're right. Not to tip toe around hot water again. Yeah.

[01:30:43] Marvel movies are really hot. Correct. Right. Even though people crush on. And when they pick these people they try to make them conventionally like handsome and sexy in a way where it's like we all agree like Chris Evans good looking guy good body.

[01:30:57] But I do feel like there is a weird sort of sexual activation thing with Keaton in this movie that is similar to animated Robin Hood. Where people are like am I the only one getting turned on by this. Which is why I think it sticks

[01:31:09] in people's craw and I think street boys have a similar thing as well with Catwoman. Sure. They're like there's something weird going on here and I don't know if I'm supposed to find this sexy but I'm getting excited. No I learned so much from you mean Michelle Fipers

[01:31:21] got one? Yeah. Yeah I learned a lot from her. Yeah Batman's Daddy. About like right. Penguin is Daddy. Yeah. I mean. Yeah. Christopher Walken event I learned in turn. Next track. Max Track. That's who he's called. What's his name? Max Max Track.

[01:31:34] Can we talk about Billy Dee Williams please? So what I find interesting is that Billy Dee Williams is the one part of this movie that was like franchise. Hey. Pam Frisso I made it clear this movie loves black. Why not love African American but it loves black.

[01:31:52] No I didn't sorry I didn't think that's where you were going. It's the one part of this movie that's sort of forward thinking in terms of franchise building. Right right right. Because it was the fifth thing of like. Let's tease him for the sequel.

[01:32:02] This character who could just be a generic like day player like there's that mayor character. All he does is say like I don't not worried about the Batman. I'll see you later. Like he doesn't do anything in the movie at all. He just speaks to the press

[01:32:14] several times. In comparison to Jack Palin's it's like OK that's like getting a big legendary person to come do a couple scenes to sort of set the tone for the movie but if that's all it is it's stunt casting. This it's like you wouldn't hire Billy Dee Williams

[01:32:25] to just do this. He was signed to a multi picture contract. Right. Burton had this big idea. We've talked about this but like he wanted Sammy Davis Jr. to play Beetlejuice. Right. And he was like very into like the people of it like his childhood you know. Right.

[01:32:41] Coming back and playing these sort of iconic roles and being able to like sort of twist them in that way. But the character does so little. There's the mayor character who looks kind of like Ed Koch we're growing up. I thought that was Ed Koch.

[01:32:52] He's played by the guy who plays the mayor in the best movie of all time The Taking of Pelham 1 2 3. He plays the mayor in both movies. That's OK. His take on the mayor in 1 2 3 is is a beam the mayor of the time. Like yeah but yes

[01:33:05] he does look a lot like Ed Koch. It's weird. But he puts his big chip down on like I want to get Billy Dee Williams to do this. This part's going to seem below him. But it's the promise of Lee Wallace. You're going to get an arc

[01:33:16] from this. You're going to get a three movie arc that was the one piece Warner Brothers bought Billy Dee Williams out of his contract because they didn't want a black two face. Is that really it was 100% it was as simple as that. Like that's a hundred percent.

[01:33:28] He got a lot of money. Yes he was supposed to be Max Shrek. Max Shrek is supposed to be Harvey Dent. Right. Right. And the end of Batman Returns is supposed to be because Catwoman kills him by tasing his face. That was supposed to be

[01:33:40] the moment that makes your face. Right. That was the idea was two was going to be when you saw his sort of corrupt side. It was going to be that exact character and she was his assistant rather than being you know a sort of business man.

[01:33:53] He was a politician. Right. And at the end of the movie he becomes two face and that was the third film. And Warner Brothers they wrote the script that way and Warner Brothers said we don't want a black two face and they paid Billy Dee Williams

[01:34:02] a ton of money to not be in future Batman movies. And then OJ Simpson swooped it and said I'll give you a black two face. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah except it was more like one face. Or like you forgot the duality. I didn't realize that. That's interesting.

[01:34:18] My thought right because I thought that it was by the time they were ready for two face in the 90s like Billy Dee Williams was like old news and they were buying out of this deal. I think people think like oh that was like an early like

[01:34:28] it's a little Easter egg fan service thing. They didn't actually have plans to do it. No I know that they planned I know that they had bought him out of the contract. That was the exact line of thinking Trek was written to be. Yeah.

[01:34:37] And what's funny is also that Trek the Ogre was written to be Billy Dee Williams. I knew that. I think they bought him out of that contract too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um yeah he didn't know that. He swam in a lake of Colt 45. Hey come on.

[01:34:51] What are you sabotaging Colt 45? I know. It was the face of it. I know and then the other crazy version of this is Robin was written into one scene of this movie. They decided it was too much. There was going to be one

[01:35:03] scene where it's one of the Batmobile chases where then Robin comes in the tunnel and starts fighting. And they were like this is too overstuffed. So they saved him for two and two the premise was it was like they were going to sort of do the Joseph Gordon

[01:35:18] Levitt like oh my middle name is Robin thing. Where he like got a street kid to like fix the Batmobile. Sure. Right. Who started like living. And that was Marlon Wayans. Right. Marlon Wayans was cast. They built the suit for him. They made an action figure

[01:35:31] and then they caught him and he got paid a ton of money to not be in it. So like the two Burn Batman movies are like the two times he tried to hire black actors and big roles and then never attempted to do it ever again.

[01:35:42] How do I get paid to not be in a movie? I mean that's the thing they figured it out in a way. To be honest. Yeah. They kind of beat the system. I can just say that's a trope that I don't like is like

[01:35:54] the kid who's influenced to become an hero. Like like which Star Wars movie recently was it? Was it last Jedi where it was like Little Kid with the broom. Yeah. You don't like Brum Kid. He's got a broom though. It's fine. You're just not into the kids.

[01:36:07] Bruni Janoubi that's probably his name right? Yeah just. You know what child Jedi mom and I like? When what's his name? My name can murder some of the Bruni children. Of course. Yes. When he cleans out Edge. Yes. You're twisted. You don't need to see it.

[01:36:23] I just need to see the carcasses. You're like yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Jedi murder. Master and Nick Invid. Right. That's the kids like I'm Master. I'm not. Wait what's going on Master? Hey buddy. How you doing? I'm giving Ben a pat on the shoulder.

[01:36:37] Are there other things we need to talk about? I like the ending a lot. I like the church. I like to you know. Exactly. Yeah. But that does feel like the final showdown in Dark Knight. Does it not sort of the setup of them being this Elevator?

[01:36:51] But it's just a nice completion of the whole Gothic theme right? Oh yeah. Like we're not and also again we're talking about superhero movies now where they all end with like a vortex to another dimension. Right. And this is just like Joker gets Batman's girl brings her

[01:37:04] to the top of a steeple. Right. And Batman shoves him off the steeple and he dies and that's it. And the journey to the top is extremely memorable. It is. It is great. Yes. Yes. There really is. It's good action that's not too complicated. It is. Yes.

[01:37:16] It is. No, it's very simple. It is kind of incredible how well done the action is in this movie considering the limitations they had in all senses. It's also kind of incredible that they have the guts to kill the Joker. Like that they've got this

[01:37:28] huge actor and he's obviously done and like they're like yeah he dies that's it. You see his dead body. And then that weirdly sense a template where then people think that super villains need to die in the first movie. Right. Like the only exception to that becomes Magneto.

[01:37:41] Right. Where he runs throughout the series but other than that it's like. Magneto is right. He's basically so he's such a crucial part of the whole thing. But like Gene Hackman they had him signed to multiple films. They were reusing footage for the later ones you know

[01:37:53] like of course you got to keep Lex Luthor in these things. But it's like yeah Batman doesn't kill the Joker. That doesn't happen to you. Yeah right you knock him off a cliff but then you don't find his body where but yeah he's there like no he's

[01:38:02] dead there is dead. Right. End of movie. And that laugh. I was going to say. Yeah the little machine. I'll tell you the other. Freak me out. That freaked me out. Yeah that freaked me out because I was just like what does this mean what the

[01:38:14] fuck's going on. You have a dance with the devil in the moonlight. The thing that sticks with me the most this morning my favorite scene I think I don't know if I've said this on a different episode but when I was like 10 years old

[01:38:25] and we had to do like independent research project in school I chose to do mine on Tim Burton and I literally rented every Tim Burton VHS from the video store across the street catch potato video and I hooked two vcrs up to

[01:38:38] each other and I copied I made my own Burton mixtape. Oh of like your favorite scenes. Wow what is this sophisticated child? I spent like a weekend doing that because I was like I want people to see the scenes that like mean the most

[01:38:49] to me and I would take like the opening title card directed by Tim Burton card and then the scene I liked the most and it would be like a super cut of like seven of the movies or whatever. Did you invent super cuts?

[01:39:00] I may be invented super cuts and then I narrated it over it. I said you can see every frame here is a painting. Good dark junior over here. But one of those things are just like Jesus Christ that was like quite a commitment for like fucking us.

[01:39:15] Well when you're a kid you can go all in on something like that. And what else was there to do back then? There's nothing to do. You're like writing God knows what in your little like journals. But I tried to like pick these scenes that I was like

[01:39:25] these for me like really represent like like a showcase show pieces of Tim Burton as like a director as opposed like the other things and I think it was the I used the Martian spy girl scene from Mars Attacks. I weirdly because it had just come out

[01:39:39] use the scene in Sleepy Hollow where he's walking around all the old men talking about them all being decapitated which I thought was so fucking funny at the time for some reason. No, I think it was. I don't remember what the other maybe I used the Shakespeare

[01:39:52] but I used my favorite scene in the movie the one that I find both the funniest the most sort of stunning as like a showcase and the most upsetting is the news broadcast. Yeah, this hard cut to new characters you don't know and a totally unknown world

[01:40:08] and it feels like broadcast news for a second. You just got some guy in the booth like throwing out the command action news. Yeah. And they keep on using those shots of like the grid of the monitors where you see the cameras on the guy reading his copy

[01:40:21] and her off to the side just shuffling her papers and trying to stifle the laugh. No laughing matter. I like how he's trying to vamp. And then the interruption when you have like there's something I've talked to this other episodes but I find so freaky

[01:40:34] that you don't have any more when video quality used to be different. So in a movie someone watching something on a TV screen had an otherworldly quality because it was a lower resolution than the film you're watching. Right. The Joker breaking in is so scary.

[01:40:47] And it is weird like supermarket like ad and he's using his pattern is so good. The models they had said just been murdered which is like so more. He's just a good. He's always funny and always scary and you never have a problem with either part of it.

[01:41:03] Like his pattern is so funny. The parade he's so funny like anything Nicholson is adding to it is funny and yet you're always just like a little troubled by it. But that was Nicholson's sin he said he keyed into with like when he was doing Trulence Theater

[01:41:14] was like these things are not fighting with each other. Sure. Right. Like the funnier I am the scarier I am both things they're not canceling each other out. And then there's that great thing later when he like interrupts the press conference from the mayor.

[01:41:30] Where he comes on the other screens and he literally pushes them off the other monitors. Like that shit's so weird. And then the other one that I always get freaked out by is the like quiet invasion of the mines. Oh my god. So good. That's wild.

[01:41:45] It takes so long it's such a slow start. Fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. All that shit's so weird the old mobsters with the like what's your problem joking. Yeah. They're all just like fat Italian mobsters stereotyping. And then Tracy Walter is Bob Lagoon who was like a guy that

[01:42:01] Jonathan Demi would use as like William Houtkins as well. We should shout him out Zach Hart you know Porkins from Star Wars. Oh fuck I never put that together. But Tracy Walter is like Beyond that IMDB more often make this connection. Tracy Walter is like the hotel

[01:42:17] desk man in like Something Wild where he was just like a weird character actor. And then Burton asked Leota to be Batman because of Something Wild. Something Wild. Leota was like no I don't get it. And the studio had their list of

[01:42:31] like oh they wanted like Kevin Klein and they wanted like all the guys who were like sort of on the rise conventional Leotard man. They wanted Jean like anyone who's like a hot 80s star. We're these losers. Yeah. But he wanted Leota, Leota passed. Yeah he loved Leota.

[01:42:44] He wanted Curry, Curry passed. They were his first choices. He talked to Brosnan and Brosnan was like I don't want to make a comment for the movie. Curry is Batman? Curry as the Joker. Okay yeah okay. I mean he got the right people it's like

[01:42:55] Yeah he did it's a great and then the two key moments that I just think are so beautiful and I credit to the script for putting the manner Burton for having a deer whatever it is but the first dinner scene where they're having the conversation

[01:43:08] where they can't hear each other across the table sets them up really well to be like oh I don't resent this character for being like a spoiled rich guy anymore. I see how uncomfortable he is with all of this excess which makes him a little more human

[01:43:22] and then when she wakes up in the middle of the 90s hanging upside down. You know I feel like every time I see a scene at like a huge table like that it's a trope like every time I see it I just think the back to this

[01:43:33] movie actually. Oh okay I thought about it. But that's probably origin of this trope for me. That just punch line of like to meet here often it's like yeah no I like this from I like this from yeah yeah actually I don't think I've ever

[01:43:42] and then it cuts to them like in the sort of kitchen and Alfred saying like oh this kid was so cute he's not elitist. Kind of a lighthearted millionaire asshole. Yeah I also like he gives knocks the grant. That's right. He's pretty like a generous you know.

[01:43:58] I also like he seems uncomfortable with his mind that Joker takes down Batman's Batplane with a big gun. Oh yes. I mean that's the fucking moment too where you just go like yes and they do the same thing with his extendo glove and his antenna on the remote.

[01:44:14] But these are all things that like the future movies like they're like let's take that and magnify by a thousand right like even I have to admit like Schumacher's thing of like Mr. Freeze lives in an ice palace with like Eskimo guards and you know like everything

[01:44:27] is palace. It looks like Saran wrap because it looks crazy is but returns is definitely maximizing right. Yes, the big rubber ducky and all that weird shit if I had to pinpoint I was going to say I had a lot of questions from my mom about like

[01:44:40] the death kiss at the end of returns like the making out I had I remember you were like what was to be the death on why is he dying? I don't get the death of a dent the birth of two fish. Yeah, I didn't get that.

[01:44:52] I think if I was older the moment to me that just solidifies it where it's like fuck Burton let him do whatever the fuck he wants like he's tapped into something primal here. Yeah, and I just imagined seeing this opening day in the audience

[01:45:03] just flipping the fuck out and it's such an animation idea with him having the notion of like how do you build a visual setup to like a perfect sublime visual payoff is just the the bat plane on the moon. Yes, that thing is just like a little rapturous.

[01:45:19] Yeah, but it's so elegant. It doesn't feel too clever to sell. I think it's the animator instinct that I think is really what he has that a lot of directors who do superhero movies don't have right that design sense of like is it funny? Right, if the character

[01:45:31] silhouette is like this, you know, but like seeing even just seeing like the bat signal from some like back alley somewhere and like a cat scrambles by and it's like a he tries there in the sky to get as much as he can

[01:45:41] out of every shot at this point. You know, either with an interesting design idea or even like a bit of physicality in the way an animator would be like how do I spray this up in the first Wayne Manor scene when he keeps on leaving the drinks behind

[01:45:54] and Alfred just has to follow him. Like he's just so he's packing everything full. But the key is that the script is so streamlined that the movie doesn't become right. It doesn't feel like exposition all the time. It just feels like yeah, but if I had seen that

[01:46:08] in theaters with the bat plane in the moon turning into the bat signal, I would have just come all over the place. Yeah, I agree. I agree. The box office game. I know, I know. That's enough. That's the moment that I think makes it makes the movie.

[01:46:24] The blockbuster. Yeah, I love that moment. So this rewrote all the rules of box office. It was the biggest release. Wider's release. The first time it's something was this kind of front loaded to like let's blow out the opening weekend. Yes. And it broke the records. Batman.

[01:46:38] It does 45 the open weekend. 40. Which at the time was unheard is equivalent to like doing 200 today or something. It broke the opening weekend record that had been set one week prior by number three at the box office. Lethal weapon. No. It was a two. Nope. Ah, fuck.

[01:46:57] The record was 29. Oh, it's Ghostbusters 2. Ghostbusters 2. Just set the record for opening weekend with 29 million and Batman makes 40. Right. So much bigger. Right. It's huge. Trump. Um, no. Ghostbusters at that point, it was like five years of anticipation for like Bill Murray's at the sore bone.

[01:47:13] When's he gonna get off his butt and make a fucking bust in movie again? Which Ghostbusters movie is the one that has the painting? No, the parade. The like there's a Ghostbusters parade when like the that's two. Yeah. Okay. This explains my childhood because I do remember

[01:47:27] they write this actually liberty with the slime and they put positive on it. It's not a parade action. Demon parades. Parades were the set piece of this era. They're good. We've been that back. They're a good set piece. Number two though is just a horror movie for a

[01:47:40] producer bent. Just the worst kind of movie possible. He's he's freaking out right now just thinking about it. Are they okay? Are the things very small and so small? So small. It's dry is not an issue. Honey, I shrunk the kids. Honey, I shrunk the kids.

[01:47:53] But we've talked about this same weekend. Okay. We've talked about this. I know when they're small the things look big like the Cheerio looks big. Cheerios. I know, but I still know that it's small. So it's it throws me off. They do get wet in a big little

[01:48:07] bowl of milk. I remember that. It's the life of number four. So we are seeing we are seeing in this like the dawn of this kind of franchisee because yeah like number four is another sequel. I have a third movie in a franchise. It's a Ghostbusters is number

[01:48:19] three. That's right. Yeah, see look I mean this is just like franchise, franchise, franchise. Okay. Number four is you said another sequel. Yeah the third in a series. Final. Nope. Horror. Nope. It's not a horror. Is it action? Big super yeah not super here but a big

[01:48:34] action franchise. And it's not Lethal Weapon 3. No. It's not a Death Wish movie. No huge huge like family friendly like beloved movie. Family friendly. Not my favorite but people really like this. I don't know. And it's the third. You like this guy. We've we've discussed this director.

[01:48:51] The director. Many times many times. I like him. This is the third one. Did he direct all? Oh oh oh it's Last Crusade. Yes. Yeah right. She and Jones in the Last Crusade. Yeah like this is like a modern blockbuster top. Definitely. Five yeah. And then number five.

[01:49:05] Not a bad set. On movies. No no not at all. No it's a good group of movies. Yeah. Number five I do not like another very big director. This was a big Oscar player. Very sappy sort of inspirational movie. Did it win any Oscars?

[01:49:21] Or was it just like a roundup? I think it won screenplay. But it was nominated for like Picture Actor. You know it's it's I had no idea it was a summer movie. It really feels like a fall movie. It's on Dead Poets Society. It is Dead Poets Society.

[01:49:34] You're not a fan of Death Poets Society. Not really. I love Peter Weir. But I haven't seen it in years but I've never seen it. Finding the like kid drama. So irritating in that movie. That's true. Not that's true. But I probably last saw it when I was 14.

[01:49:51] Like I you know I can't remember the last time I saw it. I feel like it's probably worse. Probably. I love again. I love Peter Weir. I'd love him to make another movie like. Forgot that was even him. I don't think of that as.

[01:50:01] Yeah let's see he didn't write it or anything but you know it was sort of his way back the last he did. Yeah the Colin Farrell movie. Where's he been? I don't know. I mean he always takes forever to make a movie especially now

[01:50:12] but like still I would. Russell Crowe keeps hinting that they're talking about doing another Captain Aubrey movie which I cannot imagine. Master and Commander is one of my favorite movies. I watch it all the time. I watch it to relax. What?

[01:50:24] It would only work if it was a movie about the time that Captain Aubrey ate a ship. Poor Russell. I don't want to be mean but we've talked about I don't think I've talked about this on Mike but the fact that like Russell

[01:50:36] Crowes in one of those phases where he's like I read the script and I just decided I had to bulk up for this part. He's doing his Orson Molls. He keeps on acting like it's a choice though. It's just it's actually just Orson Molls is a good example.

[01:50:49] It's unusual for a big star. Especially someone who is that kind of sexy. To kind of right who is like a really right a sexy marquee idol of some moment to really just kind of be like yeah totally. Orson Molls could get it.

[01:51:01] You know to just sort of like A man touch of evil. You know Boy Erased as you said we were talking one time his eyes are fat in that movie. That's Griffin's joke. I forgot how good that joke was. It's a good joke. That's a good.

[01:51:16] Can I give myself five comedy points because David's the one who's behind. Please please. You know and now he's like where he's like what should I play it's someone's like do you want to play Roger Ailes and he's like yes I will play Roger Ailes.

[01:51:26] Right it's either he- Hand me those pop tarts. He looks for real life people who are husky to be general. So that he can maintain his body type or they're like hey how would you like to play Robin Hood. He's like my tech on Robin Hood is beefy.

[01:51:40] But even it's truly even glad he was beefy but he was he's a beefy guy. He's an actually beefy guy. I mean Robin Hood's a bag zen because I think that's the last time he was in shape. Pretty much but I mean like even yeah in the mummy

[01:51:51] like it's like Russell Crowe lost 15 pounds and sort of like looks a little more limber whereas right in a boy race it's like oh Russell Crowe put on 20 pounds. Yeah yeah his eyes look fat. Right and he lost 15 from like to 50 like he wasn't at.

[01:52:06] No I know I'm a husky guy too. I love Russell Crowe. I love an actor who just pursues roles that require eating. That is my kind of. I do too yeah. Yeah. Viggo Morton said have a time of his life in Green Book. Oh boy that's the thing.

[01:52:19] Eat that pizza. Yeah I'll give that movie that. Yeah he got to eat that pizza. The Christian Bale just wants to be fat we should let him stay fat. Bale? Yeah. I think he's into like the dysmorphism. He likes right he likes the up and down.

[01:52:32] He likes the child. You're right. I'll say when he dies he's gonna die so fucking hard. Oh my god they're gonna cut him up and be like you're around. He's gonna make you. You're worms. He's the boogie man from Nightmare Before Christmas. Your eyes are in your butt?

[01:52:51] Did you see Vice Cammy must have seen Vice? I didn't and everyone's sterling reviews of a movie really makes me want to see it. I want to see Tyler Perry in it though. Yeah you know when I saw that he was in it I was like that rules

[01:53:04] but he doesn't really give much to do. Gone girl star. Kind of nobody gets to do. Does he just not have much to do? Yeah. Is he good though? How does he not have much to do though? Isn't Colin Powell a little bit important?

[01:53:12] Because the movie just shifts into full on like recap mode in the last half and so everyone just kind of drops in and is like Colin Powell's like I'm just not comfortable with this. That's the thing right like Colin Powell's the one guy with a bit

[01:53:23] of integrity which means McKay is interested in talking about him because he just wants to like point and say how you know. Lisa Gay Hamilton plays Condi she doesn't do anything like you know it's like no one does anything. Corellas Rumsfeld is a bigger part

[01:53:33] but that's because Rumsfeld is present throughout his career. Sure. Right yeah. But you know anyway. It's so obvious. I don't see it. I don't see it. I don't know. I already made my top 10 lists and fourth number one first performed. Batman? Oh yeah. No, that's a good choice.

[01:53:48] I wish I would love for a Batman movie to come out that I could like stamp or sink your teeth into. Yeah. All right we're done. Can I do a tiny merchandise spotlight? And it's not the type of merchandise spotlight I usually do.

[01:54:00] Once again because no one like realized how much potential this movie had until it was too late. The company that got the rights to make the toys from this movie, which were you know a lot of Batman, a lot of Joker because you only really

[01:54:12] have like two toy-addict characters in this movie. Sure. I think they changed later. Right. No one's going to buy like knock stalls or anything. Later they're like let's have two to three heroes and two to three villains per movie please. They did make a Bob the Goon

[01:54:23] Tracy Walter action figure with kicking action. Great. Which like I think was like a big like 1989 like oh shitty Christmas all I got was a Bob the Goon the rest were sold out. Ben's looking up video games but Ben the Batman Returns video game

[01:54:36] we got to talk about that. The first time in video game is the one where he's purple right. We're like in order to make the sprite stand out from the Batman. Batman Returns was like a good side-scrolling beat them up kind of Super Nintendo game. I had that.

[01:54:49] It was awesome. It was good. It was hard. I think I was too busy on my Crash Bandicoot hustle. Sure. So dear enough. Fucking Bandicoot. I've got Cramp Bandicoot on my Switch now. That's a roll. Oh he's great. Yeah. I would love to play Cramp. Crash Bandicoot slaps.

[01:55:01] He's cool. Yeah. I made a Crash Bandicoot joke in my Mowgli review. Is that me just though? Does that date us? Sure. Do the kids know who Crash Bandicoot is? No, he's back now. I think they've sort of brought him back. They've sort of brought him back.

[01:55:12] They remastered the original games and it was like one of the top-selling titles. Yeah, that's what I have on my Switch. And now it's on every console because he used to just be PlayStation. Now it's on Xbox, it's on Switch. Kids love it.

[01:55:23] I just don't like that democratization actually. Who's the villain? He's like a floating head. Dr. Neil Cortes? Yes. I just love Crash Bandicoot. You talk about Komodo Joe? Sure. I don't know. Ripperoo? I love that. I know what you're talking about. Crash Bandicoot.

[01:55:38] A once like a video game conversation I get. That was your guy. Crash Bandicoot has big dick energy. Crash Bandicoot is the best. He does. His like touchdown dance? Are you kidding me? Yeah. He pulls off shorts. He was a sex symbol.

[01:55:51] The thing I was going to say is that the toy company that got the rights, you will find this interesting, was a little company just trying to get their foothold called Toy Biz, owned by Ike Pro Mudder and Avi Arad

[01:56:03] who off of the success of the Batman toys which were then sold to a bigger company. Yeah. Were able to convince Marvel to give them the rights to X-Men where they made so much money that they were the ones who bought Marvel out of bankruptcy.

[01:56:16] Coming up on our Patreon, James Sheamus calling Ike Pro Mudder a fascist. Coming up. Right? Tie in. Yes, tie in. In a few days from now. Yeah. But I just find it interesting that the success of the first Batman movie and by proxy it's merchandise.

[01:56:30] Fuel's Toy Biz which then buys Marvel. Which saves Marvel. Right. The modern Marvel Cinematic Universe doesn't happen without. I know. Well, there you go. This is the beginning of everything. That's pretty interesting. I know Batman really like raised a lot of tides. It really did. Yeah.

[01:56:44] Batman was that bitch. Batman was that bitch. I can't think of a better way to end this episode. Cam, thank you for being here. Yeah, it was just fun. People should follow you on Twitter to read your biolines of Andy Ferrell. Hear me call Spider-Man gay every day.

[01:56:59] That's right. Every day. Is that a promise? Will you say that? Will you make that promise to our listeners? Don't make that promise. On air that you will call Spider-Man gay. Spider-Verse is about to come out and get ready for some homophobic Spider-Man take. No, I'm just kidding.

[01:57:10] I support Spider-Man being gay. I just want him to come out. Yeah. Sure. Spider-Verse is great. I feel like if your first instinct for casting a superhero is Toby Maguire, it's gay. And your second instinct was Jake Gyllenhaal. Let's be clear. Come on, let's not forget. All right.

[01:57:28] Do your thing. Come on. Okay, all right. Don't rush me. Yeah, don't rush. Holiday party. It's five o'clock, Ben. The time you said it. We did it. We did it. A minute over. I just want people to know that for the entire two hour episode.

[01:57:47] Ben is like, we have a hard out. And then when I get in here he's wearing the Christmas lights. I want to go drink it. How can I go? You're literally five steps away from this party. You have to open a door and then you're there.

[01:57:57] Or at a bar restaurant. Oh really? A bar restaurant? It's both. I'm so decked up. A combo. Bar and a restaurant. And this is kind of like humble bread. I know. Humble bread. Oh boy. I just want to say before I do our wrap up.

[01:58:09] I love how Ben is extending the episode. I mean it's a... All right, all right. What do you want to say? I want to say before we end the episode. The finger foods are not going to be there anymore by the time I get there. Excuse me, Ben.

[01:58:21] I'm trying to end the episode. And I just want to say before I do for the listener at home, Ben's necklace has been going off this entire episode. For two hours he's had a Christmas lights necklace that flashes between different colored lights. He's changed the intensity.

[01:58:37] He's walking out of the studio. Bye. He looks great. He's kind of dressed like Batman. He's all in black with Christmas lights. And a Merry Christmas to you all. This episode, of course, is coming out in early January. Thank you all for listening.

[01:58:51] Please remember to rate, review, subscribe. Thanks to Ange for Gudo for our social media. Joe Bonaparte rounds for our artwork. Thanks to Liam Munk coming for our theme song. Go to T-Pahublic for all your nerdy merch. Go to Reddit, BlankiesDotRide.com for some real nerdy shit.

[01:59:09] And as always, Crash Bandicoot has big dick energy. I agree.