Big Trouble in Little China with Jason Mantzoukas & Paul Scheer

[00:00:00] Blank Check with Griffin and David Blank Check with Griffin and David Don't know what to say or to expect Blank Check

[00:01:06] You know this was written as the original script was a western? It was about the formation of Chinatown in San Francisco set in the 1800s. Yes, and Kurt Russell comes in and is actively doing a John Wayne impression who he worked with I believe as a child.

[00:01:23] Yes, and this feels like the genesis of that being one of the three main Kurt Russell modes. Like anytime he has to be a mildly funny guy I feel like he's doing the John Wayne rhythms.

[00:01:34] I want to throw something into the mix here because I also felt this was a little bit of Kurt Russell throwing some shade at Harrison Ford as Indy. Not in cadence, but in story and attitude like there is a version of this.

[00:01:52] Yes, there's a version of this character. This is definitely an answer to Indy and Kurt Russell's attempt at come came close to being Han Solo. Yes, he was really, yeah.

[00:02:06] He's one of the other choices at that time to play Han Solo and this is also a riff on that except that and what Kurt Russell is so exceptional at doing and I know we're in, we're just doing it but unlike Harrison Ford's characters

[00:02:22] Jack Burton is an absolute failure at every stage. He has no wins. He has no wins until he kills Lopan. He has every time he loses. And he takes two shots at Lopan too.

[00:02:38] Yes, or like the one where he's like alright let's go and he shoots into the ceiling and knocks himself unconscious. Yeah, he has so many heroic lines that are then upended by failure and that's what Harrison Ford never does.

[00:02:55] Well I think that what is so interesting about this movie and going back and watching this film. I was a little bit nervous because I haven't seen it in a while and I know that this is a movie that people absolutely love.

[00:03:06] I love or I like this movie a lot. I don't think it's my go-to John Carpenter movie but I know there's people out there that they have the poster on the wall. It's all in on this movie.

[00:03:16] I think I've appreciated it the most this time but I would say that I was a little bit nervous like oh is this going to be like a weird like kind of racist movie where I'm going to feel like oh this didn't age well.

[00:03:26] And conversely, I think this movie ages so well because you look at it and you go the white savior myth is completely upended because he is an idiot. And everyone around him is smarter, more you know not more interesting but yeah they are.

[00:03:43] More capable, more capable, more interesting, more prepared. He is a visitor in the movie that's happening. This is a movie where the lead character is a guest. He's not the inciting person. He's not the stakes don't lie with him.

[00:04:02] He is a trucker delivering meat to a restaurant and gets sucked into like a supernatural war. Not only does he get sucked into it but he barely affects it. Little impact on anyone else. He's replacement level. Someone else could probably do the same job.

[00:04:20] In many respects and I don't mean this to be, I don't want anyone to take this in the wrong way but he is playing the damsel in distress. Who doesn't know that they are the damsel in distress.

[00:04:32] Because he does all the moves that you would see in these movies where the woman runs into the room. Oh my gosh, they saw me. He does it all. It's so kind of subversive in that way.

[00:04:44] Yeah, well he's all bluff and bluster but every time he's called on it he's like whoa what? He's constantly stepping into a fight for the heroic moment but then when he steps up to the guys and he's like hang on a second.

[00:05:02] And then the guy pulls out a knife and he goes whoa! And then the other guy pulls out a blade and he goes where'd you get that? He's like truly, truly constantly being undercut. His masculinity and his capability is constantly being undercut at every stage of the movie.

[00:05:18] But it's also fundamentally not a Fish Out of Water movie because it's also defined by the fact that this guy absolutely thinks he is the lead character and the hero of this story.

[00:05:28] Like that's the interesting balance of it, it's not Guy in over his head ill equipped, that's where the comedy comes from. It's the comedy comes from this guy thinks this is a movie entirely about him and you could Garfield minus Garfield almost every scene

[00:05:43] and fundamentally none of the action really changes that much. He also is staying in circumstances that he has no reason to stay for. You know what I mean? He's got no skin in the game. He just wants that double or nothing.

[00:05:57] He's got no skin in the game and it's like as opposed to like let's say Michael Douglas in Romance in the Stone. He's constantly trying to shake Kathleen Turner for like the beginning of Act 2. He's like trying to get rid of her.

[00:06:11] You know he doesn't want to be part of this. He doesn't want to get dragged into whatever he is. She is but the minute trouble starts, Jack Burton is like I'm here and I'm in the lead and I'm don't worry.

[00:06:22] I've got this and then he's like I don't got this we're trapped. He literally yeah he literally is asking he's like follow me and then turns to somebody else says where do we go?

[00:06:32] I love that and there is something that's so fun about that character and one of the things that they do that I think that is really interesting and I read this after I watched the movie last night was that opening sequence where it's sort of this interrogation

[00:06:45] or this who even knows what this is where they really build up his character with something the studio wanted them to add because they wanted to make this movie a Kurt Russell movie. Yeah.

[00:06:59] And it seemed like John Carpenter and you guys probably know this more than I do like was okay with it because he felt it further subverted the audience's expectations of it like it was interesting because you lead with this three minute scene

[00:07:11] like don't talk bad about Jack Burton. He's a goddamn hero and then you realize that it's funny at the end of the movie like oh he's even lying to that like

[00:07:20] like he's keeping it all quiet like they're blaming him in a weird way or they're putting him at the front so their organization and their society stays quiet secret it's it's yeah it's genius it works.

[00:07:32] It's kind of crazy because Carpenter took the studio note and found a way to have it play both ways. Yeah exactly what they want but but heighten his own bit.

[00:07:41] I was just gonna say it's very telling that like so that's the studio note you know reshoot opening added later in terms of how this movie was originally planned the the opening and closing are Jack Burton into the CB radio right in his truck essentially mythologizing himself.

[00:08:00] Oh yeah basically a trucker Bukowski kind of monologue but all this like Jack Burton isn't the kind of guy who does this you know like explaining it then you watch this movie where when they call his bluff and go like congratulations

[00:08:13] you're in the middle of an action movie he's like well of course I am I'm Jack Burton then he fucks everything up and the movie ends with him being like let me tell you another thing about Jack Burton like he just views it as an absolute success.

[00:08:26] Well what I love is how often he refers to himself as Jack Burton right like he's constantly self mythologizing himself around and narrating he's almost narrating the movie because he's also having to and again it's this is something that I feel like

[00:08:42] that Indiana Jones or Han Solo would never do which is he's constantly admitting he doesn't know what's going on like he's he's asking questions in every scene where are we going where is this what's this his skills are he has a knife

[00:08:58] he wins an obvious bet he can drive a truck that's it right those are done right he can get your movie financed that's that's his biggest skill he's green lightable look you guys were on for another Kurt Russell movie I only realize this after

[00:09:15] I put that you guys have done two Kurt Russell movies I have a thing for this which I am going to admit here on the pod which is the first time I saw Big Trouble in Little China was after we did used car oh wow interesting wow okay

[00:09:34] Carpenter is a blind spot for me wow oh I love carpenter mostly because I am not a horror person I did not grow up liking horror

[00:09:45] being a horror fan and to me carpenter was synonymous with horror so his movies were set aside for me they weren't ones I pursued unless they were like escape from New York which I knew was not a horror movie which I saw the thing which was like

[00:10:00] which but I also didn't see the thing until like probably my 30s and this I never saw and then we saw we watched used cars

[00:10:08] and I was I then after used cars just went on a Kurt Russell Jag of all the Kurt Russell movies I'd either never seen or I had forgotten

[00:10:18] you know and this was one of them and I was so mad when I watched it because I was like I could have been watching this right

[00:10:25] it's going to be part of your life right yeah I loved this movie you know it's it this movie is unlike anything

[00:10:34] really when you watch it now or and watching it now and not having this allegiance to it where I'm like this is one of my favorite movies I was able to I think really appreciate it more and be surprised by some moments that I had forgotten about

[00:10:48] and the turns this movie takes even now are so bold for a mainstream movie and I think when I was a kid

[00:10:56] this is a movie that played I grew up in New York it grew like there was a Channel 11 which was like they played that's where they played all their movies right yeah exactly

[00:11:04] that like I feel like I was watching gung ho enter the drag not enter the dragon Barry Gordy's the last dragon the golden child

[00:11:13] there's a lot of like obsession with Asian culture and it was like and it was and this was the one that I was like oh yeah

[00:11:22] but I like those other ones that were basically doing the straight down the middle thing as a kid I was like I want to see that

[00:11:28] I don't want to see this thing that's kind of subverting it so I feel like I really got a chance to like just appreciate it for how insane I mean

[00:11:37] the creature with the eye as a tongue is just like you're like wait and this isn't like and none of it gets explained nothing ever gets in no matter how many exposition dumps there are none of it gets explained to a satisfying degree which is so delightful

[00:11:55] because we are following in the movie the people who are kind of on the outside of the actual story like there's that great alleyway fight that is between the two gangs and the storms arrive

[00:12:10] and just as the storms arrive and the the fight really escalates Jack and Jack and his friend leave and we follow them away from the action so we're following people who are not part of the central action which is fascinating and such an interesting move

[00:12:29] there's also that scene when Jack and what's Kim control his character's name law Gracie law Gracie law when they're finally reunited he goes like so what's going on here exactly and she tries to give him a plot synopsis but kind of shrugs it off

[00:12:46] she's like I don't know like low pan wants to marry me because I have green eyes and she's like she takes the shit off she's like whatever I was kind of into it for a second and I'm realizing it sounds silly that sort of her vibe

[00:12:59] she's similarly kind of a shitty Lois Lane where she like throws herself in the center of this is like I need to crack this case and then ends up becoming like part of the problem

[00:13:10] and what I love is that she partners up with him like he doesn't fall in love with the green eyed girl who is coming from overseas like the two idiots fall in love

[00:13:19] yes it really is and I love her friend whoever that's all in this movie yes Kate Burton the reporter yes Kate Burton when I realized that I didn't realize that oh my god yeah

[00:13:33] but I loved it like they'll do stuff like Gracie law will be like oh low pan the godfather of little China Mr David low pan and then Kate Burton goes you mean the David low pan that's chairman of National Orient Bank and owns the wing long

[00:13:49] import export trading company but who's so reclusive that no one's even laid eyes on this guy in years like Kate Burton delivers that whole line and and and Carpenter puts in shots of like Kim control rolling her eyes

[00:14:03] right they're like over even they're commenting on the exposition in the movie but Kate Burton is also like she's the Wang Chi where she's actually the one who knows everything and then Kim controls like yeah yeah yeah obviously so that's what I'm gonna do yeah yeah

[00:14:18] well but also the scene with most of the exposition Jack Burton is on the phone trying to like get insurance for his truck which you know like five seconds after and it's like what are you guys even talking about come on you know like that's that's the that's it's the perfect tone

[00:14:34] Griffin introduced the show giving you an opportunity got to do it now quick this is a podcast check with David I'm Griffin I'm David

[00:14:44] it's a podcast about filmography directors who have massive success early on in their career and are giving a series of blank checks make whatever crazy passion products they want sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce baby

[00:14:54] this is a mini series on the films of John Carpenter it is called they podcast today we're talking big trouble in little China I mean how did you not call it big trouble in little podcast well my this was Griff likes to often split I like to split

[00:15:09] and then I think he will he'll go far down a road and then right your pitch I say I say big pot big pot in little cat

[00:15:17] that's what I wanted to okay so David was saying what if we do big trouble in little podcast and I said I want big puddle in little casta which she hated

[00:15:28] yeah you see I'm I'm on I'm on your page but I also I'm on your page in the want to do that but I'm on David's side that it was wrong right but that's where I walk

[00:15:38] you're right that probably going splitting the difference big pod in little cast would have worked why did you why did you why if you're so you're not replacing you're just replacing the the first half of trouble with pod correct that's that's crazy

[00:15:53] once you're once you're breaking it down like that I think you're I think that's insanity

[00:15:59] it's sick as someone who has to do openings a lot for how did this get made and you do a bunch of these episodes you your brain starts to break and you start to find patterns in different things we're good will hunting over here trying to make these these opens work I you know sometimes it just you know we're on the next level we're we're we're trying to find we're trying to find the juice anymore doesn't a regular open doesn't give it to you

[00:16:20] guys you don't you don't get it the one I really wanted was pod scape from new cast I like I like the portmanteau words and and poddle I mean a big trouble I mean here's the thing they podcast is just it's just it's just literally text that's what we're doing

[00:16:38] I they they podcast you know I'm a truthful artist I tell the truth I think some people like that some people like when there was a message in the title like when we did dungeon Jonathan Demi and it was stop making podcasts I like that

[00:16:53] short absolutely absolutely right and I like it as sweaty as possible I want I want fucking satchamo blowing on that horn dabbing off his forehead

[00:17:02] this is a big trouble in little China episode our guests today how did this get made and most importantly from the use cars episode a blank check which was the longest episode yes what we're here to do Ross Perry broke the record with Halloween that's what we're here to do we've got the

[00:17:20] our target is set on Alex Ross Perry Halloween damn Halloween episode Jason manzookas and Paul share here thank you for being on the show again hello Fennel Wow

[00:17:32] wow what an endorsement big shout out to produce that that's that's for Ben that's for the producer Ben hell yeah we're so excited to be here only whenever you do Kurt Russell movies now please call us that is the only way we can do this

[00:17:47] yes I will only come in for Kurt Russell movies it's curtain only can I just throw because I think we're going to be very positive about this movie and and and offer and and rightly so yeah good movie is a good movie I just want to

[00:18:03] I just want to like call it to me that I think I was wrestling with and I wanted to get your take on it as we discuss it because I feel like it's better served top then later on the movie is uneven in the sense of performances and and I would say even from scene to scene

[00:18:19] like there are certain moments where I'm like wow this feels like somebody's audition sides and then later on I'm like this person feels like a lived in fully done character and then I'm like are you are we playing into genre here

[00:18:33] sometimes Kim control feels like she's playing into genre sometimes I'm like I don't know like that's the one if I was to take give you like the one big note for me besides Kurt Russell who is clean down the middle

[00:18:46] like he's getting it and I would actually say low pan is I mean I love that guy James James right yeah one of the and yeah there are some there are some people that obviously are not but that was the that was the one thing that every now

[00:18:59] and then made me feel a little bit like and I can understand that maybe that turn people off because this was not a successful this is films yeah it was not successful it's a discombobulating energy this film yes say I think the first time I saw it I was a teenager

[00:19:14] and I was pretty baffled by it I didn't get what it was doing at all yeah and I do think that was a common experience I was gonna say this movie is I think one of the reasons that I liked it so much is kind of because I found it as an adult

[00:19:31] and it's one of my favorite kind of movies which is that it's a shaggy movie it's like this is like Lebowski this is like this is a movie in which the core plot of the movie wasn't meant to include the lead character

[00:19:48] the dude the dude isn't supposed to be inside of the kidnapping plot of the big Lebowski he is there by accident by mistaken identity right and his presence absolutely upends the whole thing and the same thing is happening here in the sense that like this is a martial arts movie that has supernatural elements between warring factions inside of this community that is closed off to the rest of the world that has all of the

[00:20:18] mythos and lore and all of this stuff going on and just because he happened to be delivering meat to the restaurant that day jack Burton gets sucked into this and is now our audience surrogate and is it's confusing by the way I'm gonna I'm gonna argue that it's even worse like it's not that he's just delivering

[00:20:37] meat it's like he gambled and then he is just being greedy like not greedy he won the bet like but the only reason why he goes forward is because like it's it's like the hero's journey by like attachment right because it's like he's not making a choice to go for the only reason

[00:20:55] he's going forward with the journey on some level is to maybe get laid with maybe like that's a part of the first step is he wants the money that yeah he's owed and he's like all right I'll bring you to that place it's the equivalent of Han Solo being like I'll help you do this but I better get paid

[00:21:14] but I guess like his two like his is two steps forward in the hero's journey are for selfish reasons I need to get paid the money and I like that and I'm attracted to this girl there's nothing like I need to save this person ultimately

[00:21:28] well well here's the thing that's true I think about this movie is Jack Burton is not there is no call to adventure not there is he is not a chosen one he's not chosen he's he's in fact being told over and over and over again you are not important in this story and you don't even need to know the specifics we're

[00:21:50] not even going to tell you the specifics until later we you're not in you the restaurant guy the uncle in the restaurant the Wang and he of these people are like don't worry Jack don't worry Jack Jack is like constantly being like what's going on who's that guy what's this and they're like you wouldn't believe me if I told you don't worry about it

[00:22:08] and that kind of shaggy energy that no one's saying go away I would sort of have to have him around he's he's the cheerleader he's the cheerleader like you know like he's he's providing a service that I think even though everyone in this movie is incredibly capable and incredibly smart and knows what's going on they use him just like the opening

[00:22:29] opening scene they use him to accomplish certain things like he was the only you know Nixon's the only one who could go to China Jack Burton's the only one go to that that House of ill repute you know like they needed they needed him as a pat see and he willingly falls into that role this is

[00:22:47] my mission thing on this this is a John Carpenter film like Jason said suggests something darker it stars Kurt Russell it's an action movie about a big bicep guy with a gun who fights you know elemental warriors a man explodes in this movie there's you know insane violence it's

[00:23:05] kind of sexy you know it's got a complicated called the Lords of Death I mean my with with back to the future level back to future two level glass is going on I mean there are like there are like there are there are characters who control the elements yes who are perhaps themselves the elements

[00:23:25] there's right there's scenes in you know brothels there's all kinds of underworld stuff the big word I would describe for this big word I would use to describe this movie is like cute this is a really cute sweet movie despite everything I just told you

[00:23:40] I don't think this would have worked in any other form like and I do think Carpenter's crucial I was I do think Kurt Russell is so so crucial to that any other you read we're going to tell you know you read up all they want to clean Eastwood they want to

[00:23:55] Jack Nicholson it would probably be a disaster terrible you know terrible movie that movie would be racist that movie would be racist well we saw that movie El Torino I mean great great great no no no it's so true because and you guys have talked about this on the in other episodes of the Carpenter series

[00:24:15] but this this movie is suffused with not just the kind of martial arts Jackie Chan kind of style stuff that is present at the time but also Howard Hawks like straight up banter right screw screwball comedy this is a screwball comedy inside of a

[00:24:35] martial arts movie and that's what's interesting like Gracie Law and Jack Burton are have the ratatat dialogue of like a bogey and Bacall or you know or any of those kind of screwball comedy of his girl Friday you know type of stuff that's what this movie at the heart of it is what's going on and then all the externals are this wild adventure

[00:25:00] story but without that kind of banter at the heart of it it would it wouldn't work at all and that is I agree with you David that banter is which which Kurt Russell has with everybody is cute.

[00:25:13] That's what I love where you're like Jack Burton could lift out of this movie but without Jack Burton this movie would probably not be very watchable like right that's pretty crazy to get that balance right.

[00:25:22] It's bizarre this movie is like six movies and one that fundamentally feel like they shouldn't work and even when it doesn't work it works like it works in spite of being an over stuff mess.

[00:25:34] It's interesting Jay Paul that you brought up like discovering this movie on WPI X because that was my local channel as well and I felt like the best channel and in terms of because it was like a lesser network they would play more movies especially on the weekends because they had less programming.

[00:25:50] Yeah I remember like Sunday after dinner it was the best time to go down and watch movies but I also feel like there'd be like a Sunday afternoon.

[00:25:58] Oh yeah yeah I mean I that's I feel like Sunday afternoon yeah like that going over someone else's house like you kind of just run down to your basement and watch this TV like I remember that distinctly being on Shag carpet right.

[00:26:09] WB 11 and like you said this movie made less sense to you as a kid because you were watching it in relation to more earnest straight faced modern martial arts movies.

[00:26:19] I remember discovering this movie in a line perhaps within the same year as like WB 11 Sunday afternoon movie with total recall and Robo cop which this movie was contextualized for me within those two Verhoeven movies where I was like what is this spectrum of things that get me.

[00:26:38] It's like this is a spectrum of things that get me into the 80s that seem to be parodying themselves and have these like bug nuts practical effects this odd sense of humor this like weird aggression.

[00:26:52] That was where this movie came into focus for me but I also feel like I discovered it when I was like 15 and I was like why didn't I see this movie when I was 10 as you would you get it as a total recall. I don't know.

[00:27:03] I don't know in a certain way this movie feels like a little boy just free associating and making up a story as he goes along.

[00:27:12] Well it's interesting because Jack never gets hurt you know I mean like Jack has take so many hits has so much like physical injury done to himself and to his truck but both he and the truck drive away at the end unscathed completely you know I mean like there's something about he never gets.

[00:27:32] He never really takes any damage because concrete and he's fine like.

[00:27:39] That's the other weird element of this is that he's kind of charmed it's kind of an Alice in Wonderland like on top of it being a martial arts movie a comedy a sci-fi it's a fantasy film to your point he's kind of a kid.

[00:27:52] It's kind of a kid in a make believe story.

[00:27:55] This is this make this reminds me of Axe cop it's like because the story is free as so soon oh now there's a monster that this now there's like this beast that comes out you know the beast that's behind the the wall like what they never explained never never explained beast.

[00:28:13] Yeah he ever has a final showdown with you know it's great also like the motivation like Axe cop being like why are you in this because I hate bad guys.

[00:28:26] Right now I am good and these bad guys are bad and I have to stop them I mean you were talking about how like the you know refusal of the call thing that is so overused in sort of heroes journey screenplays and like not only is Jack not have a hero's journey.

[00:28:41] But he never refuses a call he accepts a call that was never placed. Yes you know he's a hero he thinks that's it he's not on a hero's journey but he thinks he because finally the first Jack Burton movie I've been waiting forever for this.

[00:29:00] It's it's that scene where he's like comes to the lead where they're all they're leading everybody out and he's like OK from here on it's easy going it's just some some storage rooms some office space a storefront and then we're out and then

[00:29:15] ready one two three he opens the door and there's a million bad guys on the other side he closes the door slowly and he goes OK we may be trapped.

[00:29:23] And then goes then goes you guys run they only saw me right and then which is such a great dumb thing and then what I love and going back to what we started talking about in the beginning about how he barely affects this movie they bust through that door.

[00:29:38] And he essentially runs off camera and the other guy does the entire fights and he kind of comes back and like oh hey everyone like it's like he he leaves the screen that to me was the what it's so well done in that way that he is has no part of the battle.

[00:30:00] But but is never but is never framed as a coward is never framed as you know in an ineffectual he's ineffectual in the sense that like he runs out of bullets or when he throws his knife it misses but he's not like hiding.

[00:30:14] He's not like right he's not running away which is which is really important. Yeah exactly it's really important that he he feels as though and acts as though and sounds like he's John Wayne.

[00:30:25] He's giving John Wayne level declarations and then undercutting it either he or the movie undercuts it instantaneously. You know that you guys might be trapped moment is so crucial because it's like he's his most confident proclamation of him having this under control.

[00:30:44] He opens the door he sees them he doesn't panic he doesn't scream they don't cut to a wide eyed close up he just calmly closes the door goes through three locks right like takes his time.

[00:30:55] Takes a breath and then turns around and says you guys might be trapped and it's like bugs bunny timing where he's like weirdly unaffected by the escalation of danger.

[00:31:05] Oh yeah and here's another one this is this is this was another all to that I thought you could use for the beginning please what's in the flask egg magic potion. Yeah, that's a good what do we do drink it. Yeah, good. That's my favorite exchange.

[00:31:21] Boom incredible exchanges with egg. Egg is so great and I love that guy that's Victor Wong right Victor. Yes, I mean it's also in Prince of Darkness which he rules in as well. He's he had three ninjas.

[00:31:34] This movie's full Al Leong is in this movie just killing it just like being an absolute monster out there. He's just the best. The table on the 80s. He's one of Hans Gruber's henchmen. He's gangist con and Bill and Ted's excellent venture.

[00:31:50] Yeah, he's in and he's also in is any in Beverly Hills cop. Yes, I think he is. He's in he's in so much lethal weapon. Yes, he's the one who he's the one who shocks Mel Gibson, although apparently he is in Beverly Hills cop freak.

[00:32:12] Oh boy of course man that's that one hurts me. Carter Wong was the guy that I was very excited by in this movie. He's the guy who blows up. I loved him too.

[00:32:27] He's like what a great just a great bad guy in this whole movie really, really fun. He has an incredible smile is sort of like you know his like sort of evil grin.

[00:32:38] I was just gonna say if the movie was framed correctly it would be a movie about Wang you know Wang whose fiance is kidnapped. He has to go on an adventure.

[00:32:48] The call to action is am I gonna go and rescue my fiance from these from low pan from the forces of mystical evil blah blah blah blah blah blah.

[00:32:58] It's Wang's movie but we don't we're and he's absolutely as as as incapable as Jack Burton is Wang is excessively capable. He fights the amazing lightning. He fights thunder. He fights all the bad guys and does backflips.

[00:33:16] He's he's incredibly adept and capable but what's so funny is because we pivot and are with Jack Burton the movie just becomes inherently comedic or more comedic than as if it was just an intense martial arts kind of adventure story.

[00:33:34] But another thing it feels impossible that this movie is able to pull off is that that entire Wang movie you described does happen and happens on screen. It's not even like the joke is oh it's happening over here and you're not seeing it.

[00:33:48] True yes you're right you're right but it's not we're given so little access to Wang's interiority. You know what I mean like yeah I guess I think the other thing that I'm I mean this kind of goes hand in hand with it.

[00:34:01] I believe what's so interesting about this movie though too is how it avoids all the stereotypes of what was going on in cinema for these types of movies.

[00:34:13] But yet plays into all the stereotypes of genre which it's like it's a very interesting line because you know I just I'm kind of like blown away by that deft hand and John Carpenter.

[00:34:27] I never think of him as someone I think of him as understanding genre really well but this take on this and playing this out in this way was really interesting because he is he is giving you everything he wants.

[00:34:38] If you took Jack Bauer out this movie works if you put Jack Bauer in it works on a different level. Jack Bauer I would love it if it was Jack Bauer. I don't think it works with Jack Bauer.

[00:34:48] I want to throw Jack Bauer would be yeah he would. I mean to be fair this movie probably takes place in 24 hours. I mean less I mean yeah they're out in the morning it seems like yeah.

[00:34:58] But but like I mean David I want you to walk us through the development of this but you think about just because we're doing this chronologically right. The thing is like his blank check movie after making all these films that over deliver on a very limited budget.

[00:35:13] Everyone hates it. America revolts. It's a fucking flop. It's despised by critics. OK I'm like back on my heels. What do I do to recover right.

[00:35:25] He retreats to Christine and Starman which are more sort of like you know one's a Stephen King work ones you know you know more family friendly those two. So he's kind of like right. It's it's a proven franchise in King. It's a teen horror movie. It's supernatural.

[00:35:44] It's like that's an easier film for him to just kind of get done and put out and turn a little profit. And then Starman is like look I'm branching out. I'm going like more emotional more heartfelt. It's barely a genre movie.

[00:35:57] And then this is the most genre anyone could put into anything but it's also pre they live. It's the first time that he's sort of going overtly comedic which is a big swing.

[00:36:08] And the only reason this movie gets made I think with this I don't want to say this little oversight but with this many chances taken and this many big swings and weird directions is because of this movie being in a bizarre arms race with the Golden Child.

[00:36:24] An equally bizarre movie that they were terrified of getting beaten by. Not only did Fox of course West Fox living in fear of the Golden Child. It was just living in fear of Paramount.

[00:36:35] Paramount had become this sort of unstoppable juggernaut in the 80s with Eddie Murphy as their number one star.

[00:36:43] And so they're like fuck Eddie's like the last of like the traditional movie star contracts where it was like you have 10 movies at Paramount and Paramount's like God damn it we have a hit every year now.

[00:36:52] And they're like shit he's making a movie that's kind of sort of sounds like this movie. Like Eddie Murphy's in it the guy who did just did 48 hours trading places Beverly Hills Cup were screwed.

[00:37:04] John you got to make this thing fast and we write we won't really check it like that is definitely part of it and he has for him a big budget like twenty five million dollars and pretty big budget for the time I guess.

[00:37:17] Yeah no absolutely yeah and this is the end of John Stewart as a studio filmmaker for a long time. John Carpenter you said John Stuart. John Stuart and Jack Bauer together are one of the best. Thousands they're just alive again. Big trouble in little rosewater.

[00:37:36] When I think of John Frankenheimer I think of a filmmaker who is a filmmaker. What I like about John Bon Jovi's movies the most is that he has such a depth control of tone. David talk us through the development of this screenplay because it's weird.

[00:37:52] Right it's credit to Gary Goldman and David Weinstein as you guys said it was a Wild West story set in China town in 1899. He's not a truck driver. He's like a meat delivery man for Chinese workers. Graphic novel or novel novel.

[00:38:07] No no no just the original script that was floating around. OK it's got this weird adapted by credit because the whole screenplay was rewritten and WGA wouldn't give the credit. It's adapted from a different screenplay.

[00:38:22] It's like a page one rewrite basically but it's a bizarre format of credit that they almost never do. They don't do it that often right. And Carpenter complained about it as he did about what's the is it the thing.

[00:38:33] No a star man star star star star man is credited to the original writers and not the guy who actually wrote it. But at least this time W.D. Richter the director Bakaruban's I you know a very interesting guy in his own right.

[00:38:47] He rewrites it because at a certain point Walter Hill I think was going to make it as a Western or whatever in that fell part. Who's one of the most frequently recurring figures on this podcast in this exact section of any episode where you go.

[00:39:03] Walter Hill almost directed this script. Like I feel like all the time Walter Hill is the guy who almost made the thing and made the weirder version of the thing that everyone does. Walter Hill just have too many movies to be put into the bracket.

[00:39:16] I would know I would like to do Walter Hill we've talked about Walter Hill you have it's doable and it's interesting guys. I'm just I'm just I'm sorry for once I just get my car keys from my wife. Just give me one quick second.

[00:39:31] It's OK. I'm playing checkers on via text message with my friend during our episode. What. No but no but Ben keep this in. OK. By the way also David. By the way with friends of the show Shirley Lee sorry.

[00:39:47] OK so we've gotten addicted to this really janky app in an in iMessage where you can play stupid games with each other and we're trying to one up each other in how bad the game can be essentially so I checkers.

[00:39:57] OK. I am the absolute worst at staying in regular communication with people Jason especially over like digital devices and platforms and stuff.

[00:40:08] Ben and I were just marveling the other day that for as many different things David is on top of in his life and how thoroughly well versed he is and what's going on in television movies music literature all of that.

[00:40:21] He also at any given time is like upholding 80 different group texts including. Yeah I don't get that. I'm with you. I'm like that is that's he's on top of that is shocking to me and play 15 different games with friends and has a baby.

[00:40:37] I have a baby. I do have a baby. She's great. Yeah I love to text love to talk to people. I do too. But when you have a kid you have to that's where you get a lot of your time out.

[00:40:47] I mean honestly truthfully like I'm doing a lot of I'm doing a lot of that work. That's where I'm doing most of my work. I have to. Jason IRL is much I think you and I are linked here afraid of the Internet don't want to leave our homes.

[00:41:02] Correct. You are right on with that graph. Speaking of how is before we get back into it very briefly how is your health.

[00:41:10] It is good. Thank you very much for asking. I'm totally in the clear the very short version of it is did they give you did they give you your gallbladder to take.

[00:41:17] No my friend Pat called dibs on it. It turns out now that they do everything what's it called endoscopically or like yeah. Right. They have to like mush it up before they pull it out. Yeah.

[00:41:29] Yeah. No the fucking problem was that my surgery got delayed for two additional months because they got really worried that something was wrong with my liver.

[00:41:38] And so they put me under because they couldn't run the anesthesia through it. So I was in increasing pain. Absolutely all this is it. I don't know. I don't know though. I don't know. Keep it in. All right. All right.

[00:41:51] My surgery which had already taken two plus months to get to the date it was supposed to happen then got canceled because in the blood work they had to do the day before the surgery.

[00:42:02] They were like your liver is out of control. We think you might have a serious illness. We can't run anesthesia through your liver which is where it goes because then it could cause permanent damage if we put you under for the gallbladder surgery.

[00:42:12] So I had like two more months of rigmarole and tasks and getting sent to different people and whatever before I finally got to see a liver specialist.

[00:42:19] And she was like get that thing out of you immediately. I don't know what they're waiting for. I'm going to have you do 20 blood tests to rule out every worst case scenario.

[00:42:27] And if you don't test positive for any of these it's worth the risk to get the thing out of your body because we'll get a better sense of what's wrong with your liver.

[00:42:34] If we go in we take a biopsy. We do an X-ray this and that and what ended up coming becoming clear a couple weeks after the surgery was done gallbladder removal went great all problem solved.

[00:42:46] Everyone's wondering is the liver going to return to normal. And she's like yeah liver numbers totally down to normal. It turned out what happened was it took so goddamn long for the gallbladder surgery to happen. Your gallbladder ruptured and started leaking onto your. Oh my God.

[00:43:01] So it was the problem. The worst it got the worst it looked. Yeah. It was like it was purely like just a weird.

[00:43:10] It did not affect function at all. There was no permanent damage but every time they look they were like your level should be in the 20s and there are 1000. We're going to push back a surgery another two weeks. I see why that's awful but OK.

[00:43:23] I'm glad you're on the man. I am. I'm in the clear. I'm doing well. Oh I'm glad to hear it.

[00:43:28] The Walter Hill version of the movie sounds a little more like Shanghai noon. It was sort of like comedic. Right. But but the idea is sort of doing like an East meets West kind of thing this sort of like set in the past set in like frontier era you know San Francisco.

[00:43:50] That's the other thing they were very interested in being somewhat historically accurate like mapping it on to the development of Chinatown in San Francisco at the beginning and then putting this fantastical myth mystical stuff in it but also putting this sort of like con artist but like blow hard

[00:44:09] meat truck. I don't know meat wagon delivery guy who like fashions himself as a cowboy who rides into town and he's got like I felt like and I don't know because I'm you know you know you're

[00:44:20] just a little I do know and I will give shout to the the Action Boys podcast which is past past and future guest John Gabriel Ben Rogers and Ryan Stanger have a show called Action Boys and they did an episode on this as well.

[00:44:38] And so I feel like I've gotten bits and pieces of stuff like that because I think that's where I originally heard that they wanted it to be a Western but this idea that Kurt Russell is doing all of these Western elements like a John Wayne vocal cadence I feel like his

[00:44:54] Baja thing is the equivalent of a Clint Eastwood poncho man with no name. Total you know he's got like the the bar that's his poncho you know like all of these reference points at the end of the movie he leaves with saddlebag like horse saddlebag.

[00:45:13] You know like that's his money is in saddlebags and he climbs into a big rig truck like it's crazy.

[00:45:21] It's also funny that it's like OK let's take this thing that everyone said like has interesting ideas in it but the script is essentially indecipherable like everyone was like this is insane it's too dense there's no very dense right.

[00:45:33] W.D. Richter who had just written Buck Rubens I which is a classic of the 80s that is that was a huge flop on release right is basically like I needed to do something to get my foot back in the door.

[00:45:45] No one was going to hire me to direct. Yeah. Can I ask a question. I'm sorry because I'm only on the podcast to do rail and make longer. Go ahead. Correct me if I'm wrong you guys have never done buckaroo bonsai right. We have not we have not.

[00:45:59] I have a very important question to ask Ben have you seen buckaroo bonsai. No I have not. I've never heard of it. Doesn't that feel like a Ben movie straight like a fastball straight down the middle. Absolutely Ben you would love a lot of bonsai.

[00:46:17] I've never seen it either. I highly recommend it. It's it's kind of got big trouble a little China energy I guess. Absolutely written by the same guy. Well I think it's credited to someone who thinks W.D. Richter.

[00:46:31] How did Peter Peter Weller is no Kurt Russell I will say that. No he's not. I mean there's I think that's a reason why perhaps buckaroo bonsai remains even more niche than this film because Weller is playing it a hundred percent straight

[00:46:50] and straight versus Russell being able to sort of wink and let the audience in. But buckaroo bonsai is like this with sci-fi you know it's a it's a similar sort of exercise. It is fascinating that he's like because his screenwriting career before buckaroo

[00:47:07] bonsai was strong right then that movie kind of perplexes people. He's in director jail. He's like I need to make something that gets me back in studio good graces and he makes something equally weird and unsuccessful like on a bigger scale.

[00:47:22] But he does get the job essentially because he reads this script and it's like this should be contemporary and Fox is like good we're glad you agree get to work and John Carpenter had the same take where he was like I found

[00:47:36] this script unreadable but it just had a good title and a lot of ideas and W. D. Richter turned it into a movie I wanted to make you know it Carpenter had had read it years earlier as sort of just a thing floating around

[00:47:49] there's stuff here I wouldn't know what to do with this and then Richter's whole thing was like the buy-in is so big on this movie it has to start in a world that people recognize right right so that you can

[00:48:01] then uncover the sort of rabbit hole underneath it all and not only in the world you recognize but a contemporary world to such a degree that it's capitalizing on the brief popularity of trucker CB movies. True. You know what I mean? Yeah.

[00:48:17] Like by making him a trucker you are really identifying this this period of like five years where we are obsessed with you know trucker movies, trucker life, CB radios all of these kind of things and that kind of like just puts him squarely in modernity

[00:48:39] and that intro you know they drive around you know they have a car chase and he's in the big rig then he pulls the big rig into the alleyway it switches to a soundstage and then the fight happens

[00:48:52] the entirety of the fight in Act 1 they are spectators of inside the truck They're not getting involved. They're useless. They're not helpful. Jack Burton and Wang are literally just sitting in the cab of the truck watching one of the biggest fight scenes in the movie occur around them

[00:49:10] they are spectators and that's what's interesting and once you're in that alleyway you're inside the Chinatown or the little China I guess version of this world and contemporary world sees us to exist right?

[00:49:24] Yes. Yeah. I mean I think that you get a little bit of a sense of what I like about it too is like after that scene they go back to the independently owned like family Chinese restaurant right

[00:49:36] which feels again like based in the real world and even like the brothel house like that feels again like they're in there out like it's there there's a moment but that's like the entry point of there's something much bigger at play in this world right?

[00:49:52] That's our first moment. There's a quote from Richter that speaks exactly to what you're talking about he said his biggest inspiration was Rosemary's baby and he said like what that movie does is it presents the foreground story

[00:50:02] in a familiar context not San Francisco at the turn of the century which is going to distance the audience immediately and then you have some one simple remove the world underground so he's basically like if you set in a contemporary setting that people will understand right?

[00:50:16] Like a world that everyone knows and then you're like and then there's this supernatural layer beneath it that they can get on board. That's his pitch. Of course this movie baffled audiences when it came out but he was eventually proven right I think. I do think that's right.

[00:50:31] Well I think that the staying power of this movie and the cult status of this movie and the fact that there's a lot of movies that you have to go back to the 80s. You can go with John Hughes all the way

[00:50:42] like big directors where you kind of have that like cringe element like oh well that doesn't age well or that that joke is a little bit like oof even like you know these Eddie Murphy movies that we've talked about there are some things

[00:50:52] that are like oof this movie has not only aged well but it really has like this was as enjoyable as if this came out this week. Like that's how I felt about them because it's kind of stuck in a unique time

[00:51:05] it doesn't feel of any time oddly enough like you know like it just it feels like it's just like we have all the variables that we need you know I don't know that that's the way I like looking at it

[00:51:16] I was like oh this is so interesting like that. I mean and like the simple sort of visual metaphor of like every elevator they get in is going down right has just like level you know that's that's that's all you need to understand now here's

[00:51:28] did you guys ever read the article that is I think it was New York magazine or maybe it was the New York Times magazine this is probably 15 years ago about the subterranean marketplace in New York Chinatown. No. That is that that exists that is a

[00:51:45] that is like a gray market area of you know there's the exterior stalls that are selling like knockoff Prada bags or whatever but if you go through the back doors you go into like a behind-the-scenes marketplace that exists underneath Chinatown essentially

[00:52:03] and there was a great article when I still lived in New York so we got to be more than 12 years ago that was about like them going into this world and it was fascinating. Wow I love that. Yeah.

[00:52:15] I'm trying to, well I'm gonna figure out what that is but yeah back to big big trouble Lawrence Gordon president of Fox now this is the thing that I feel like he is wrong about but you want him to be right about is he's saying like

[00:52:29] I'd had enough of kiddie movies right there were all these films sort of in the back to the future mold that he was like enough like I want to stop making movies for children I want to have everything yeah to make a martial arts movie and he

[00:52:46] you know the we'll talk the craziest thing about this movie is that when it came out of the time the critical critical reaction was bad and so many of the reviews are like ugh so many special effects god Hollywood's just gone crazy with the special effects.

[00:53:03] They've forgotten we need characters. All over you watch this movie now and you're like every special effect feels so loving and beautiful yeah well crafted and now we're all complain about that at the time. He also thought yes he thought that legacy

[00:53:19] effects phoned it in which is insane legacy effects who were defectors from ILM which was really like the only visual effects studio of note for a while then a bunch of people leave that or I'm getting this wrong was a boss film

[00:53:39] at the time it was Richard Edlin this was the big thing is that when Ghostbusters was made in 1984 ILM was the only company that had the manpower to handle a movie like that but they were already committed to something else I'm forgetting

[00:53:53] okay so they had to Sony had to start Columbia had to start a new special effects company on their own just to make Ghostbusters which is boss film Richard Edlin he brings in a bunch of other people and this is then one of their immediate follow-ups

[00:54:13] to Ghostbusters. Edlin worked on this movie yes absolutely I do think I think some things were rushed because this movie was rushed and I think Carpenter complained about that but the special effects in this movie rule obviously like but it's just the same thing with

[00:54:29] the kiddie movie thing it's just funny to think about like how this movie at the time was representing something but into you know watch it in 2021 and you're like I would kill for Hollywood to make a movie I also think we in

[00:54:41] 2021 or we in the last 10 to 15 years have so much more experienced knowledge and understanding of the tropes of the martial arts movie that this movie is trading in wire work all this kind of stuff that at the time probably felt like in like the stuff of B

[00:54:59] movie kind of just martial arts movies you know and that what's it doing here or what's this like this I can see that this would have been easy to dismiss from a critical standpoint not recognizing that it is in fact like an incredible story with

[00:55:15] I think fantastic fight scenes that I'm like that are super original and super that are super fun as fight scenes but also have jokes inside of them also have like original weird special effects inside of them like in character moments yeah I mean a

[00:55:32] thing I find fascinating is like to your point Jason Jackie Chan almost played when she in this or at least it was it was in conversation right and he couldn't he is English wasn't good enough to do it essentially right only done two American films at this point

[00:55:49] both of them bombed interesting protector the protector was he in cannibal run yes yes but that doesn't get that doesn't really really get to leading role to two American launch him right but by the way cannibal run was a big misfire because they made him do his

[00:56:05] big stun scene on a beach and he couldn't get the lift from the sand so he didn't even look impressive in that right so he has they give him two bites at the apple in terms of being an American leading man neither of them really work and he

[00:56:17] goes like I shouldn't play this game anymore I don't like the way they make movies there I'm going back doing things my way again but but that for examples another thing where it's like the frame of references perhaps not there were sort of ten years past Bruce

[00:56:32] Lee at this point you know no one has taken over that spot in American cinema Jackie Chan has not fully crossed over yet the thing I find fascinating that I made this connection about halfway through the movie is this is such a flop when

[00:56:46] it comes out and people just go like what is this this is indecipherable what is this tone the effects the fantasy the action the comedy all that is this for kids is this for grown-ups it's too dark for one it's too silly for the

[00:56:58] other this is like three years or less before Ninja Turtles becomes the biggest thing on the fucking planet which is sort of riffing on all of the exact shame shit with a similar even more aggro mashup of tone right in a way right but I

[00:57:15] was fascinated by trying to get the timeline but it also what it has that this doesn't is like a very declared mythology yes yes I mean like it's like here's what happened here's where the magic is here's how the magic works and here

[00:57:33] we and now adventures well let me can I just throw one thing at you to see where you all fall on this because I did some research and I but I don't I don't know some of it here's what I'll say when watching this is like you know

[00:57:47] they're they made these weird movies at this time this feels very much like labyrinth to me yeah and labyrinth comes out the same year another kind of big flop a big flop and it was like so interesting and then you know that I started looking

[00:58:00] at the movies in 86 and it's like there were some like crazy swings labyrinth Howard the duck also a big flop right so there were these chances here in the 80s Marvel movie yeah yeah right where where you essentially are people are bucking

[00:58:16] the trend because at the other the other scope of 86 is stand by me pretty in pink mosquito coast gung ho like you know it's like top gun you know it's like it's very like so this is kind of I don't want to say like

[00:58:29] but this feels to me like this weird middle ground where directors are trying to do something interesting but the audience like no no no no we want like we were going to rebel against it yeah well we're yeah we're tipping into like Tony Scott big

[00:58:45] big flop with like a big flop with like a big flop so this is like a really cool kind of spectacular and spectacular and spectacular and spectacular and spectacular and spectacular and spectacular and glossy sweaty kind of like gigantic scope movie you know and this feels homemade

[00:59:03] in a lot of very fun cool way I think but that that sort of am blingy vibe the Chris Columbus stuff movies as weird as Gremlins and Ghostbusters becoming like so huge I think that Paul are John Carpenter Jim Henson and the third one you said

[00:59:20] was George Lucas I mean George Lucas yeah it's Lucas Carpenter and Henson all being like I guess people like weird movies we can make right weird semi comedic semi serious effects driven films that the Ninja Turtles timeline I was just really fascinated by if I can run

[00:59:36] through this quick please is 84 the comic starts right and at that time it is primarily a parody of Frank Miller then the cartoon show this movie comes out in 86 the Ninja Turtles cartoon starts like 88 but really starts 89 and then the live action yeah the movies 90

[00:59:55] I'm sorry cartoons 87 starts really in 88 the movies 90 and it's like they built up the mythology three steps in that sort of way but everyone when those things were fucking pitch went like what is you're saying so many words I can't reconcile what you're what

[01:00:12] you're telling me but there was this thing just the clarity of as absurd as it sounds it's four turtles and they get hit with radioactive ooze and they turn into teenagers who live underground like pizza and martial arts like there was just something to that that

[01:00:27] people got but it is bizarre that like you know when the comic comes out it's an underground thing for adults then they make it a kids show which everyone thinks is like how do you do that transition and it's huge and then the

[01:00:38] movie comes out and they go well you're making a movie off of a kids cartoon show how big is that going to be it's the biggest independent film of all time it makes a hundred million dollars it's like huge it's a massive crossover thing and that's

[01:00:49] only four years removed from this movie which no one can make sense of well you know but I mean look you could also say that two years later Beetlejuice comes out and is also a big giant hit that's also weird in another world in a dark

[01:01:02] world and a thing and like it's just I think at the end of the day it's a cast that people don't know right it's it is like and I think that Kurt Russell is a B movie star ultimately like I think that that's where he

[01:01:18] kind of lives in this kind of thing and it's not these big name people and so I feel like that's not drawing it over the line there's like you're not going to see a Kim Katron movie or and maybe you're not even going to see a Kurt Russell

[01:01:29] movie ultimately you know as part of but I think like when you see Michael Keaton movie you'll see it and then for Ninja Turtles if your kids want to go see it it will become big not saying that that means it's I think that kids pitch right at

[01:01:41] grown-ups not a yeah yeah this is not a kids movie so it's sort of like you can have more of a success driving right there now why didn't Labyrinth work because I think Labyrinth and Dark Crystal are trying to walk that weird line to where

[01:01:53] it's like what is this I like the Muppets I like this but it's not really the thing I remember being so upset with Willow when I saw I mean that's another one in that you know yeah when I saw you know all those kind of Tolkien inspired fantasy

[01:02:06] stories almost none of which worked you know like very few of those actually made it into something that was whether it's Labyrinth Willow never ending story Dark Crystal legend right yeah oh big flop yeah of course like these are all these all each shit you

[01:02:28] know right and are hugely expensive and huge people behind them and I think but those I believe are movies that are primarily geared towards children or geared towards a younger audience let's say versus this I feel like I didn't I remember because I'm older than all of

[01:02:45] you guys so I remember these movies because all of this stuff happened when I was like 1415 16 years old right I wasn't like a kid watching these on cable because when I was younger other things like this was never on cable when I was a younger kid so these

[01:03:02] movies all seemed like either this to me felt like I don't know that's going to be some horror martial arts movie I don't know I don't think I'm into that you know like I it didn't seem like one of something I was that interesting in the same way

[01:03:14] that Ninja Turtles I was like that's I remember the black and white comics because those came out when I was younger and I was like I'm not into the kid version of it sure they watered it down yeah yeah and so I was like oh no

[01:03:26] no Ninja Turtles no thanks not for me haha I'm already watching Jim Jarmusch movies or whatever cool thing I thought I was doing you know yeah so you know there is this this movie I think what we're all kind of going around is like this movie falls through

[01:03:43] all the cracks everything you know it's it's neither a fish nor foul like it's it's like stuck in between everything and Kurt is in such a bizarre place in his career now I mean there's this thing where like carpet much in the same way that

[01:03:58] Lebowski falls through all of the cracks when it comes out another another atypical another atypical movie for that direct for those directors that is that is shaggy and and kind of ramshackle and and it it it's a failure but I was argue two things with

[01:04:19] Lebowski like one I think raising Arizona is just as like shaggy as big Lebowski at least and but these are independent movies and I feel like on some level or this is like a but raising Arizona comes out at the beginning Lebowski comes out after Fargo that's

[01:04:35] the most that right right they are like now Oscar not they are Oscar caliber creators they create Fargo and then they give you Lebowski and everybody's like no no no that's not we what we want from you right we want you to do another crime we want you

[01:04:49] to do a perfect crime or whatever that was that felt yeah but I agree with you Paul yeah not to disagree with you Paul I agree raising Arizona very shaggy movie absolutely but I hear you're saying those like in the in the right

[01:05:02] I forgot the Fargo part of it the Fargo part is like and this is the problem I think and this is obviously the brilliance of your podcast is that now what does the audience what does the huh let's not like come on let's not get crazy

[01:05:15] here but it is like what what does the what does the audience what does the audience expect when the audience is introduced to somebody yeah and it's and that is yeah they don't know about the rest the other thing I'll say about raising Arizona is

[01:05:30] it does have a very clear like this is a couple who wants a baby we do get that emotional thing whereas the big Lebowski it's like the fuck is this movie about it's about a guy who doesn't want to do anything but he's so you know like

[01:05:41] it's a little tougher to sell the big Lebowski yeah and this movie yeah you know the one thing in the script they retained is there's a 2000 year old like warlock dude who's trapped and he has to marry agree that's the only thing W.D. Richter

[01:05:56] kept but you don't really know what this it's like we got to rescue the girl but not really that's not really like actually a goal for much of the movie I don't I don't know what what you say to your friends when you come out

[01:06:08] of big trouble little china I guess it would be very hard to sell I agree it's very hard to sell and I think mostly because there's a line in the movie that I feel like kind of completely synthesizes why this movie is both incredibly special and also incredibly

[01:06:26] difficult to penetrate or explain or whatever which it's a real throwaway line but at one point jack Burton says I'm feeling a little bit like an outsider and Gracie Lawson and Gracie Lawson says you are and that's it he's an outsider in the movies plot you know

[01:06:45] and that's that's what's interesting about it that's what gives it its tension and what's interesting about it but it's also what makes it hard I think for if I had seen it when I was younger or something like that it makes it hard to kind of

[01:06:59] access it in a way you know I think you look at like to look at the Fargo comparison writer the Coen brothers comparison when you look at the reviews of like Fargo and Millers Crossing and Barton think to a lesser degree because that one's still heightened

[01:07:12] but was so critically well regarded they all have this tone of like finally these guys grew up right there was this attitude of like the early Coen brothers movies these guys they got all the tricks and the bells and whistles and they're technically impressive what does it all

[01:07:28] mean where's the heart right cartoon hijinks and like Fargo is like the full like anointment of like you get the Oscar congratulations thank you for making a grown-up movie and they're like cool we're making like a Stoner Philip Marlowe riff about a rug and then

[01:07:43] people go like how fucking dare you whereas I think carpenter was seen as going into like more and more sort of heightened genre stuff bleaker and bleaker right more and more grotesque and sparing and then the thing there's like this revulsion so then like Christine is like just

[01:07:59] do a simple movie Starman's the only film of his that gets any Oscar nomination right and it's like you told a human story it had feelings it had emotions this guy is back on the rails and then carpenter getting onto this movie is like

[01:08:14] he reads the script earlier he thinks it's incomprehensible he's finally starting to win back like his reputation as a pro who can just make a solid movie for a studio with no fuss he reads the script for golden child they offer it

[01:08:27] to him he goes nah I don't like it right then they get Eddie Murphy on golden child that thing is off to the races that's going to be their big movie Eddie Murphy has passed on Star Trek 4 he's passed on who frame Roger Rabbit

[01:08:41] he's like passed on all these big movies coming off the run of 48 hours trading places Beverly Hills Cop each one bigger than the last whatever his next movie is going to be humongous so by the way a giant Star Trek fan who doesn't understand that Star Trek 4

[01:08:58] like that would have been the best move for his career I mean this is a big Eddie Murphy huge it was the wrong move right it was the wrong movie yeah it didn't did not was that that's the joke of this is that

[01:09:12] there's so many people hate it but it like I mean but yeah I mean yeah I've never I've never seen it I've never seen golden child I want the knife it's a worse version of this it's it's a worse version of this and it's there's a really

[01:09:28] the Eddie Murphy riffing comedy does not gel well with the universe of the film at all they always feels like one is is overpowering the other what was the thing you want to get so don't John yes yes yes is going in is attached to armed and dangerous

[01:09:46] the 1986 film that eventually comes out with John Candy the movie is gonna start John Candy and Dan acroyd Dan acroyd like he meets him when he's making spies like us and he's like I love you John Carpenter that's you know

[01:10:00] John Carpenter is like great like I'm excited to make this movie and this is this is quoting I'm quoting from an interview with John Carpenter a month pass and Acroyd begins saying strange things like I'm not sure about Carpenter then suddenly he announced

[01:10:12] I refuse to work with Carpenter all of this happened without my having any further conversations with him John Carpenter had a pay or play contract so Columbia paid him out to not make the movie because Acroyd was being such a pain in the

[01:10:26] ass and they wanted him to be in Ghostbusters too and so like Carpenter has basically like I don't know what happened there then Acroyd leaves armed and dangerous Eugene Levy plays his role and Carpenter basically in this interview is like I hold very

[01:10:42] few grudges against people in the film industry after this bad after the battle is over the smoke clears I'm usually willing to overlook what happened but in Dan acroyd's case no way if I can ever return the favor to him I certainly will

[01:10:54] Dan acroyd is like the one man who is like John Carpenter is like I will mother fuck that guy like if I can like screw him for what the hell has have any of you seem armed and dangerous yes by the way my dad my dad

[01:11:08] my dad had a thing that he did and I God bless him where he would edit out the nudity in certain movies and armed and dangerous was a PG-13 movie and I believe I don't even know if there's nudity but at one point

[01:11:20] they're look at John Candy and Eugene Levy are looking through like a peephole at like Meg Ryan in a bra and underwear and is like trying to like see her whatever it was I just know that my dad edited out a little sequence

[01:11:32] of that scene that film so I could enjoy it to its fullness and I watched Armand and dangerous like about 1215 times that drag net all those terrible but there's never any there's never any clarity there is a follow up quote here that Carpenter in 87 says in an interview

[01:11:52] I don't know for an absolute fact what went on but I have a theory I believe someone persuaded acroyd away from me I think I know who it was I think it was someone he was working with at the time but I'm just guessing it may have

[01:12:06] been acroyd all on his own now somebody was working at the time he's working on spies like us he's working with cocaine heavily cocaine has EP credit on spies like us but one has to imagine it's not Chevy Chase because Chevy Chase does a movie with Carpenter only

[01:12:22] like four years later I was gonna say has anybody else in spies like us in a brand this that's a plan this thank you oh it's gotta be and that's the area has to be land is I don't know why but it has to be land is

[01:12:36] other than land is being a prick I don't know what the specific beef would be I think Carpenter had kind of called him a heck I mean remember when we watched that video griff where it's land is carpenter and Cronenburg and you can just tell the Cronenburg

[01:12:50] and Carpenter both don't have any patience for land there are intellectual especially like clown yeah right especially like a horror filmmakers right like land is not in their kind of league in that way so yeah maybe land is was just like fuck that guy

[01:13:04] yeah yeah he won't get it he won't be able to do comedy it just feels like a very land is thing for me I think that's absolutely true yes absolutely but but it is also a crucial entry in just the Dan acroyd chaotic

[01:13:20] you know Canada like Dan acroyd it just there's a lot of like very chaotic stories about him as a celebrity I feel like anyway so John Carpenter hates Dan acroyd he comes around to this movie he loves kung fu movies though

[01:13:32] he says I'm not a big Bruce Lee fan I like the guy but his movies are not that good he likes the the epics he didn't like that he likes more mythology his favorite thing is a Worcesters movie called zoo warriors from the magic mountain by suey hark

[01:13:48] which I've never seen what he calls it the biggest influence on big trouble so I kind of want to see it now he calls the Chinese Star Wars so like he's not coming to this as like a total kind of you know jobber like he definitely

[01:14:02] is like I love these kinds of movies and I want to make a John Carpenter version of them but the pressure on him is golden child has a release date whether or not box has thoroughly come out thought through how well big trouble

[01:14:18] little China will do they know if they're ever going to make it it has to come out and it's going to be a golden child or else it's going to get wildly overshadowed and the reason they hire by the way can I say

[01:14:28] one thing too that James Hong James Hong in both movies oh absolutely double dipping coming out in both movies both lead actors in the same I mean that to me speaks to so many issues but hilarious that two movies that are competing each other have the same core

[01:14:48] cat we were looking also that like they also two actors shared from you're the dragon like it's it speaks to the myopic view of Hollywood that they're like their five Asian character actors we will cast but you're the dragon right that was

[01:15:04] a movie that had just come out that's the Chimino movie where like at the time you watch that movie now it is so racist but even at the time people were like this thing is fucking protested you know and so there was a lot of energy

[01:15:18] around this movie people worried that it would have a similarly kind of you know whatever offensive vibe anyway but the thing is no no Fox wants carpenter for this movie because they go like he's proven himself once again as a guy who can play

[01:15:34] by the rules and deliver the movie and above all else we know that carpenter is comfortable familiar with these sorts of genre things with special effects and works fast that's the big thing they're like because you're going to get 10 weeks of prep

[01:15:48] you're going to get 12 weeks to shoot you're going to get 12 at 10 weeks of post like we want this whole movie done in six months and you're going to record all the music for two right you are good score great score great score but there wisely I think

[01:16:02] think concerned like this movie could be a money pit you got to build all these sets you got to have all these complicated action sequences like this could go over budget it could run long you know anyway it's the classic carpenter

[01:16:14] thing where he does exactly what you need and more right like he he brings it in under budget he stretches every dollar the movie comes out and everyone's like yeah fuck this and the golden child eats at lunch anyway and the studio is like how dare

[01:16:30] you how could you do this to us carpenter but by the way I mean I guess the only thing that he really won with is the actor because they didn't want it to be a Kurt Russell movie right but then

[01:16:42] he was able to convince them and I think they didn't want it to be Kim Kutral either but he like he just kind of got in there and just like I'm going to just keep on saying until they let me do it carpenter said

[01:16:52] they wanted a rock star I don't know yes right like I don't know like yeah maybe a Cindy Lauper type that must be it and I could really like fuck that you know I want an actress like out of here like what he wanted her

[01:17:06] because he knew she had the comedy chops but their thing was you talk about the sort of like type casting that as much as Hollywood still is limited in their view it I feel like doesn't happen to this degree

[01:17:18] where Kim Kutral at this point has done I bet you was Madonna by the way oh make total sense makes total call good call especially at this point young Madonna like you know young Madonna like Madonna feels perfect for this yes but

[01:17:32] but control at this point has done mannequin has done police Academy has done porches all three are big hits and they're like yeah but their big hits in the wrong genre those credits don't transfer like they were just like and people are going to see her

[01:17:48] sure but it's yeah it's like success by association should help her out here and they're like no but those are like body sex comedies it doesn't matter we don't want her and I think carpenter knew like you want someone who could do ratatat

[01:18:02] and also but she's desperate to get out of that you know pigeon holding right like she's also like yeah I want to do this I will throw myself at this because I don't want to be the porches police academy girl right and and they're they're

[01:18:14] strategy at first is we need a star who can rival Eddie Murphy let's go to Eastwood Nicholson carpenter always wants to work with Eastwood it never happens and we you know we touch on this oil and water to me absolutely that pairing is never gonna work

[01:18:30] no because what he wants is he wants the freedom of directing the spaghetti western you know Clint Eastwood which he would not in this time he's not gonna get that I don't think the other thing he wants is he wants the sort of like immediate movie star casting

[01:18:48] where the character development is done the second the guy's on the poster the audience knows what this guy's thing is what type of genre it is right you get it whereas like her Russell he has to build him out of dirt every time to

[01:19:02] come up with some new archetype you know well that's the thing Russell is we don't know it really right he is like you see you put him on the poster and you're not sure versus if you see Clint Eastwood on the poster for big trouble in little China

[01:19:16] you're like okay I'm going to this Clint Eastwood movie he's gonna be the fish out of water in this movie whatever that is you know and I get that it's funny this is actually kind of a fallow period for Clint Eastwood because he it's

[01:19:28] like his movies around here like tightrope heat pale rider heartbreak Ridge like and then he does a final dirty harry movie like he's clearly Eastwood is sort of trying to figure out like he hasn't yet made unforgiven and unforgiven in 92 that's him being like okay

[01:19:44] I acknowledge I'm an old guy you know I I'm gonna pass into my next sort of phase as an actor I'll do in the line of fire and movies like that right where I'm the older guy but he might have almost been gettable at this point

[01:19:58] but also like legendary like tightrope that's a movie made around like he basically goes direct to that movie because he was I feel like he's kind of a pain like he's gonna kind of take over your movie I mean I was looking was I texting with you about

[01:20:10] this David one of our many late night texts that the conversations David and I have off mic and over text are just things that happen on the podcast like sometimes people like meet us or hang out with us in person they just go like oh so you guys

[01:20:24] it's literally just these conversations all time but we were running into how by and large for a 30 year period Clint Eastwood only worked with three other directors if he wasn't directing himself and almost all of them were guys who were like his stunt guys

[01:20:38] or his second unit directors who like graduated and sort of became his Kevin Reynolds where it's like this is a guy where Clint doesn't have to take on the full responsibility of directing but he's also gonna direct it a little bit I don't think he would be able

[01:20:52] to play backseat to carpenter I don't think he would relinquish control there's nothing in his career that suggests that that he could really step into another otor space and let them use his image right you know like in a in a different way like no no once

[01:21:10] once he leaves once he leaves like those iconic people once he leaves like surgery on he once he leaves those people he like once he's doing once he's directing high planes drifter or his movies it's done you know it's like that's it from then on

[01:21:26] dare I say and I know that you can combat me with pink Cadillac or any which way but loose but I don't think that Clint Eastwood has much of a sense of humor and I don't think that he would be able to even navigate the

[01:21:40] genre tightrope of this yeah I don't they leave you yeah you're forgetting about that chair bit though I mean yeah that's older that's when he's got his voice yeah it's insane he didn't get SNL that year yeah the only way

[01:21:54] you can get away with it is you have him play it straight the movie is bouncing off of him right and if that's the right he's the guy what the hell yeah I mean that's a funny movie too but like pink Cadillac is a fucking

[01:22:06] bizarre movie because he's basically playing like Jean Parmesan from a recital yeah because he's like this guy who's like I'll get your guy I'm a master disguise I think he like puts on a baseball cap he's like see I'm a janitor

[01:22:18] now like and you're like what who is this guy but he plays it so straight like well and city he was something that was supposed to be more of an out now comedy and was developed by Blake Edwards and then Richard Benjamin takes over

[01:22:30] at the last second and they make it like 75% more serious and it's a big fucking flop I think like that's the fundamental problem is I think Nicholson could have handled all of the comedy of this movie but you never would have bought him as a straight hero

[01:22:46] and Eastwood would have sold the hero and he would have fucked up the comedy like Nicholson does only works as a parody of a leading man yes there's a version where there's a Harrison Ford play or there's somebody like a somebody who

[01:23:02] kind of exists more in that middle ground who can handle who has a lighter touch is that right well can I can I look we have to talk about the elephant in the room then because I guess that the issue is the rock has been attached

[01:23:14] to the remake of this and to me I feel like if we're talking about that I could see Chris Pratt playing this part very well it's what he's doing in Guardians that's what he's doing as Star Lord yeah Pratt is basically and that's why Kurt Russell as

[01:23:32] his father in Guardians 2 is perfect casting because Pratt is essentially doing a riff on Kurt Russell from the 80s and Kurt Russell has said why he took Guardians 2 like he did not see that movie when it came out they offered him the role he watched the first one

[01:23:48] and was like oh this guy's doing me and it's a hit now like he felt kind of vindicated that it was like they're getting this thing that everyone was weirded out by at the time and when Pratt doesn't work as well as a movie star

[01:24:00] it's when he steps away from the Kurt Russell zone it's when he becomes serious like he did in Jurassic World which was not I didn't sign up for that and I'm a big Chris Pratt friend I just like I felt like he was misdirected

[01:24:12] not that he can't do it the best moment in Guardians of the Galaxy is when he's Star Lord and who it's just a beat from big trouble the Jack Burton being like whether like who what because like that's the joke where he's all bluffing bluster and nobody cares

[01:24:32] and it's always being undercut by him either getting his ass kicked or him being like reduced to looking a fool and that's what's happening over and over and over again in this movie delightfully so I think there is this key to

[01:24:48] you talk about the link between Pratt and Russell right it is the fact that Pratt was just a comedy guy right and like a shlubby comedy guy for so long that when he made the transition to action star there was not an ego there

[01:25:04] right there was not that sense of self-preservation I'm sorry I'm sorry I tried to avoid it boo but Russell has the fact that he was fucking 10 years in the Disney trenches plus right and that Carpenter's the guy who pulls him out of it

[01:25:18] and he is so desperate to play an adult and to be in a grown-up movie that he's willing to be super malleable and you look at the three Carpenter Russell protagonists right if we discount Elvis which is its own thing and you go like a thing

[01:25:34] escape from and big trouble like there are three very different characters yes different ends of the spectrum I mean like the thing he's playing totally straight totally serious but all Kurt Russell all uniquely Kurt Russell you know Russell all things other people couldn't do and

[01:25:52] all risky in the sense that like in the thing he is pulling back so much of his charisma in a way that I think other movie stars would not surrender right in escape from New York he's going so self serious that it goes all

[01:26:06] the way back around to parody and in this he's playing like a fucking adult and I don't think for as much as people talk about like well Nicholson like the thing that made him such a great movie star was this lack of vanity he'll do anything I don't

[01:26:20] think you can sell him as the high functioning version of Jack Burton or the version Jack Burton that thinks he's high functioning you know I think he's a little too snide he's a little too side eyed or whatever and then Clint is just going to want to be

[01:26:36] so straight so down the middle or he's going to go too light with it like you'll just be goofy in a every which way you can any which way but I always get those fucking titles confused sort of way any which way but loose is the first one

[01:26:50] right yeah and then the other one yeah yeah you can't hey Clint I love the man I got no beef with him it's just he wouldn't have but it's it's it's what you want is and I think that speaks to the genre of it

[01:27:04] that's the subversive of it like what if Clint Eastwood this American cinema classic badass is in a world where he cannot do anything effectively it's a funny premise I mean that's that's the joke of this movie but he'd never let him ever of course that's the thing like

[01:27:20] he is this totem of masculinity and the American male and and to undercut that would be impossible and what's so funny about Russell's performance is he's doing it as John Wayne he's he's he's undercutting arguably like the biggest American male archetype you know this this kind

[01:27:42] of totem of masculinity from the from from the Arab that he grew up in and he's using that cadence and that bluff and bluster of of John Wayne to kind of show you a a a a a loser you know a guy who's always losing he loses

[01:28:00] every fight he loses everything he says is immediately undercut he cannot catch a break but it doesn't matter he just keeps moving forward with the bluff and the bluster of that of the hero of the western or the whatever you know I should read

[01:28:16] the Trump quote it Richter's do it yeah in 2016 is like he's a lovable loudmouth I was thinking the other day that he's maybe a likable Donald Trump you know if Donald Trump wasn't reprehensible and he didn't happen to become a billionaire because of his father he might be

[01:28:30] a fucking truck driver driving pigs into San Francisco it's not beyond my imagination he'd be unqualified for every challenge thrown in front of him but he wouldn't get that and he might persevere after out of sheer ignorance and sense of I can do anything

[01:28:44] that's what you're talking about he's saying this is the sort of lovable version of that kind of dopey American who's like well what's the problem here I'll roll up my sleeves like wow come on guys what's going on that's great that's great it is it's really funny

[01:29:00] the other fascinating thing is that Fox were the ones who wanted Kurt Russell not Carpenter like Carpenter wanted a bigger star he thought it needed a bigger star to work I'm sure Fox would not have complained but when those guys turned it down

[01:29:16] they were like what about Kurt Russell and he was like I don't think this is what Kurt does like I don't know if that's a good fit then they sort of like he comes around to it sees a version of it goes to Kurt

[01:29:26] Kurt's like I don't know if I'm the guy for this I don't know if this works like neither one was innately into the combination despite the fact that they were very very good friends and it worked together well at this point I think Fox knowing that this

[01:29:40] movie is gonna cost a fair amount in effects and everything else sees Kurt Russell as a bargain because they're still viewing him as quote-unquote a rising star which is bizarre when you think about the fact that he has starred in movies for 15 full years at this point

[01:29:56] right oh yeah like putting aside his child career he is the star of Disney movies starting in 1971 with the barefoot executive he has multiple films like that then he does Elvis in 79 right and then we sort of went over this timeline in the use

[01:30:12] cars episode we've been going over it here as well but it's like Elvis 79 then the 80s are when he's like I'm a grown up now 1980 use cars 1981 escape from New York same weekend 1981 the voice in Fox and the Hound that's his last relic of the Disney era

[01:30:28] right then 1982 the last the last relic of the Disney era is Walt Disney's dying words being Kurt Russell yes wait is that true that's true that is the last that is the last Disney moment of Kurt Russell's life is that it's on Walt Disney

[01:30:46] the lips of his frozen head well I mean arguably Jason I would say it's the last Russell moment of Disney's life that's actually your right but you're right but you're right but Kurt Russell was Disney's no that's what I was going to say

[01:31:02] silkwood swing swing shift are like I'm gonna go serious now right the thing has blown up in my face a little bit I want to be a dramatic actor I'm gonna be a grown-up man actor and the mean season which is a nobody

[01:31:14] nothing movie but like you know those three things that's him big yeah I want to do serious movies contemporary movies play a supporting role I don't care I just want to work with big directors you know I was Jonathan Demi you know Mike Nichols

[01:31:28] like I want to work with big actors big Oscar you know I want to elevate he's with Goldie Hawn now that's like up to his profile even more but he still wait when is overboard when in this run overboard's 87 it's right after this

[01:31:42] the next okay that's right after this okay got it got it okay cool but that was a flop on release too like that's the thing people yeah anyway yeah he's he's never an A-lister because his movies flop all the time and then five years later everyone's

[01:31:54] like yeah movie kind of rules Kurt Russell's got great energy right that's the thing is it's it's like he really is he really is appreciated only later because he's making choices that I understand make total sense to him in the moment

[01:32:08] and he I can only imagine he must have just been like what the fuck is going on yeah yeah right yeah well come on look at what I would like that I mean you look at the thing you look at this

[01:32:20] you look at overboard you look at these movies we're talking about and these are iconic movies by icon like you just said Mike Nichols Jonathan Demi these are these are it is a murderer's row and he just happens to be in all of the

[01:32:34] movies of theirs that don't hit you know and that's crazy I guess there's a part of me that says like there are and I think we're there is something to be said for like a B-actor in the sense that like I would put Gerard Butler in this

[01:32:54] camp right he's owning that Lane right and it's like and there and and then there is Jerry Butler day and night a hundred percent and and I think that there is something up where there's a like I think that Gerard Butler is doing great stuff in that zone

[01:33:10] I think that Liam Neeson can lean into that for all of his things but he's not as I don't think Liam Neeson is as charismatic as Gerard Butler is I think that like well and sometimes can then turn around and give you Kinsey a hundred percent like yeah

[01:33:22] Neeson's a quality actor who will do quality movies in between movies but yeah Liam Neeson's movies are tend to be tightly bound to his one like old action performance like he's getting the same performance every time Butler does weird movies Gerard Butler is giving

[01:33:38] something to Den of Thieves that is making it a must watch movie versus versus a just another kind of you know B-movie shoot him up. Gerard Butler's doing He's got kind of a sort of cut rate Nicholas cage thing where you're kind of like oh that's

[01:33:56] the choice he's making here like you know just a little bit yeah I will say not to I say this only because I was up close at it what I find fascinating about Nicholas Cage in working with him is that man gives a shit like and I mean

[01:34:12] that in a way where he's like nothing that you see on screen or at least in my experience with him was phoned in it was a slavish commitment to the words the character there was thought behind it and look it goes all over the board but

[01:34:28] he's such an interesting guy in general you know there are those I don't know if it's Vanity Fair or one of those magazines does like a you know an actor an actor goes through and talks okay there's one for Nicholas Cage that's like 20 minutes

[01:34:44] long and it goes through every movie from the incredible from Moonstruck and the movies that you love adaptation that are incredible cage performances all the way to the bonkers banana's ones but the way he talks about crafting performances is so fascinating and so interesting and so dense

[01:35:06] and deep for roles that you know are straight bananas yes that you're like oh wait a minute this is what you were thinking about when you were making this movie and that's it's so interesting I guess I rarely get to see him talk so thoughtfully and cogently

[01:35:24] about his craft and it's great it's worth tracking down all I'm saying is I think that there is something that happens when Harrison Ford makes a movie even if it's a like the fugitive is a great movie like hands down a great movie

[01:35:42] but if Kurt Russell made the fugitive I think it would be like oh yeah you know he's alright you know but there's like there's a stature like with an A-list celebrity doing a very simple film and it just never received the right way

[01:35:56] and I think it was definitely more like this in the 80's where there were like these levels of actors like you are a movie star you are somebody who is not as big as these like 10 stars that we have I don't know

[01:36:08] but you're approved as a leading man you're not a star you can't sell it but you look right on a poster you're known enough there's like this period where and what's the what's the Kurt Russell movie where the bad guy is JT Walsh

[01:36:22] and it's the same thing Kurt Russell's wife which fucking rules that movie rules so that structurally is the same movie as a Harrison Ford movie it's a missing right yeah yeah yeah exactly is that what it's called? or presumed innocent? I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry

[01:36:44] missing Jack Lemon right so anyway that's but the version is like the Kurt Russell JT Walsh version is a pulpy messy dark movie and all the Harrison Ford iterations of those movies are elevated in that way they have like a patina that the Kurt Russell movies don't have

[01:37:06] I agree with that I agree with even the trashy Harrison Ford movies like Frantic or presumed innocent which are movies I like by and large they have like an Oscar well I mean like they're Sidney LaMette yeah I mean these are like Pollock and all these movies

[01:37:26] yeah I mean Ford just plays it so straight you know it's interesting you think about how Kurt Russell came to being Han Solo and it seems like an awesome idea in your mind but you're like he might have tipped over the apple he might have

[01:37:42] played more in the genre than playing which is what I think you need or more of the there is a wink to him there might have been too much of a wink too much of a wink because here's the thing Han Solo I mean Harrison Ford's Wink

[01:38:00] is hey I'm gonna fuck you and Kurt Russell's wink is like this is all crazy right this is silly get a load of this nonsense and that's the thing is Han Solo you have to believe he's gonna fuck you and if it was Kurt Russell

[01:38:18] you might be like oh no he's him and the Millennium Falcon they're just gonna blow up this guy's right this guy is noncapable you need to feel like Kim you need to feel like Kim when he tries to like flirt with her she's like get away from me

[01:38:32] where is like where Willie the female character in the second Indiana Jones movie forgot her last name that played by Kid Capshaw where Willie looks at him and she's like I guess she can tell like her look at him is sure you're attractive but I'm not into you

[01:38:50] whereas like Kim could try to smell like fucking beer you buy it he looks and that's what I was saying about the Indiana Jones I feel like there's an element of this character that is very indie in the real world

[01:39:04] what would this guy be who's eating dates with with a monkey around with that real guy beat and that's Kurt Russell the movie version is Indiana Jones the immediate call out of how bad he smells it is funny that like this movie is able to sell

[01:39:20] that Kurt Russell at his absolute hottest could be that easily turned down by women where you're just like yeah no this woman's smart enough to know this is a bad when he when he kisses her when they're in like the underwater subway or not subway sewer tunnel

[01:39:34] or whatever they're in the water filled tunnel and they kiss and she's like what are you doing there's no like even though they're sparking so much she's like not into it and then at the end of the movie when they're like aren't you gonna kiss her

[01:39:48] and he's like nope and he just walks out yeah I mean but I love that where he finally tries to have he gets sort of a cool moment where he's like I'm out of here gets into his truck that has

[01:39:58] like a giant monkey inside of it that's probably gonna like beat him up that's my favorite like I just love imagining him driving away and the beast just comes out and like steals his truck five minutes later that's sort of jack Burton to me

[01:40:10] this is another quote from the movie that I feel like kind of perfectly illustrates the jack Burton character as it exists and how it's different from a lot of the other characters that we're talking about harris and forward characters all the other characters even like other hawks characters

[01:40:26] which is jack Burton at one point goes I don't get it and low pants says shut up mr. Burton you were not brought upon this world to get it and that's so that's so important you the main character of the movie are not deserving of understanding

[01:40:46] the movies plot yeah that's crazy I love that we gotta give James hung a couple minutes I want to incredible incredible this line he has and this is from recent the recent interview like it's from a

[01:41:00] movie that I've been in the industry or something where he's like I've been in the industry for 63 years and the first 50 I was doing like 10 feature TV appearances year right he was just like a character actor who would do anything obviously James hung for reference people is currently

[01:41:16] 92 years old and still working as much as ever and if you are trying to remember who he is he is he is in the Seinfeld episode the Chinese restaurant he is most who is constantly turning them away you might know him from that as well as the other

[01:41:34] 500 things he's probably right he's a definitive that guy where you're like oh my god right that guy so much so that like I said he was in both of the movies in this year I will say that there's

[01:41:44] a great and I don't know if you'll be able to ever to find it but you know TMZ just got him like walking around the grove one day like about like three or four years ago and it was so great he was like he was ever

[01:41:56] better and just lovely but he was like I love that like seeing him like trying to answer questions casually walking around the grove was really a what a treat James hung TMZ his whole take is like I was so ready for this to play both

[01:42:12] you know old man low pan young low pan and like fantasy low pan right like because I had done it all like I had been working in this industry for so long doing every morsel of a role that they would give me so I can do everything

[01:42:26] and like carpenter was just very much like came in and read and like got the part like was just brilliant like I had not not a guy would have ever thought about and he was you know just the obvious choice he's so it's not a big

[01:42:40] role like you know he has to project so much authority in every single seed like and match the humor right he has to work through all these this makeup and work around all these effects like it's a very technically complicated performance he has no easy scenes James Hong's

[01:42:58] career is so robust he has 21 video game credits Wow alone Wow he I mean like I love I love an actor like that who is you know who is always working but also in a lot of great stuff like it's not like you know he's at

[01:43:18] like you know it just like that working actor is a great I don't know it's it's and I get I get warm when I see him he's a part of my childhood but here's a defining characteristic of someone like James Hong though for me you like Jason

[01:43:32] you mentioned for those who don't know he's the guy in the Chinese food restaurant episode of Seinfeld some other actors in his exact position who have already been working in the industry for 40 years and had been in big movies would have gone why will I take a one

[01:43:48] episode guest starring role in season two of a sitcom that's not a sensation season one of which was like not watched at all right right right right that's that is like the first great episode of that show he happens to be in the episode

[01:44:02] where that show finally crystallizes but a lot of people would have overplayed their hands and made their quote too high or whatever like he's just a guy who just fucking works and does everything that's the Danny Trejo yes of being an actor

[01:44:16] which is sort of like Danny was like I've heard him say it if you just tell me when and I'll show up as long as there's no conflict he is there and it gives him this like crazy high low insane you know body of work but

[01:44:32] I think in the grand scheme of things you don't lose respect for him and I feel like there's a moment where Snoop Dogg fought with that and it was like is Snoop Dogg cool is he not and now I feel like Snoop Dogg has

[01:44:44] the other side like it's like yeah fuck it he does a show with Martha Stewart he's in AOL commercials he was a legitimate rapper he's making reggae albums but there's something about like leaning into it and just being like I'm going through this wall and

[01:44:58] and people come with them like there's no disrespect for him anymore but that you know but I think it's hard to do well and also what's most important that you are a fucking professional like James Hong is clearly a guy who's like I can't control how any

[01:45:12] of this shit's gonna turn out I don't know what's gonna help my career hurt it like you have to imagine he doesn't think that fucking kung fu panda is gonna become one of the defining roles of his career but that like

[01:45:22] ended up being a huge thing that revived him for like another 10 years and he just knows like you just do your absolute best you give everything the exact same amount of effort and it shakes out whoever it shakes out and he's and in each of each of the

[01:45:38] versions of low pan that he's playing he's giving a different interesting great performance you know all of them are full of unique funny fun cool moments whether it's seven foot tall mystical ghost low pan or like all of the old age makeup in the wheelchair low pan

[01:46:00] there's all of this stuff that he's doing he's makes this element of the movie so like grounded even though it is deeply fantastical you know and can I just maybe talk about one thing that I just google because man James must have a lot of money I wonder

[01:46:16] you know what kind of house does he like live in this gigantic palatial state the article that just came up when I typed in James Hong house was that uh that he bought a condo for $700 thousand dollars a two bedroom condo and and I'm not

[01:46:30] saying that like I'm not saying that like he doesn't have enough money to buy a house but I just almost love that like he's like yeah I live in this nice little condo and that's all I need it's like a two bedrooms is all all I need

[01:46:42] he has said that the production like he's an autograph convention guy obviously having put in so many fucking things and he says the stills that people buy the most are big trouble little china more than all others can play around the play

[01:46:56] runner sign fell he says balls of fury is one apparently he's got a big ass hole in that it's that's big in that right right yeah can I just go back to one thing that I brought up earlier the rock taking on the

[01:47:10] yeah so I just want to clarify they announced that they you know have gotten the right seven bucks productions Dwayne Johnson and his ex wife slash producing partner Hyram Gashia get the rights with fox to do big trouble in little china and every year or so

[01:47:28] in particular when she does interviews more than when he does interviews it comes up and her answer is always like look we're not going to remake it he's not going to play jack Burton we're trying to figure out something in that universe we haven't found

[01:47:42] our in yet but it feels like a universe for him to be in I think fundamentally a I don't know there's been a run of comics that John Carpenter largely co-wrote and did with Eric Powell of the goon who's like a genius I've heard those comics are good

[01:48:00] they've expanded this mythology I read that I read the first like yeah volume of the okay collection and it picks up basically wait you're saying that are inside of this story that are big trouble and go ahead continuation yeah got it go ahead like David was even asking

[01:48:20] like earlier what like picturing what happens after it cuts from the the eight being or whatever the beast being at the back of the truck that's where the comic pick up and it's really great and a lot to the lore of the universe into

[01:48:36] Burton they like they do a lot of like cutaways to like his like previous like marriages it's just got like really expands on the comedy it's really great I would recommend it I feel like I had a great time going through it I'd serrated

[01:48:50] I know they also more recently I mean they've done a couple series now and more recently they did an old man Jack that was sort of like what if you did a sequel present day with current Kurt Russell that much time passing that's I wonder

[01:49:06] if carpenter could be coaxed out of his whatever this this retirement is to come back and do that if that would be if he could cancel one of his tours where he's playing all of his music hits in order to make a sequel to this movie that

[01:49:24] is exactly that a sequel with Kurt Russell contemporary going back into this story I would that would be electric well this is my big thing as much as we're joking about the fact that the whole point of the movie is that he's not the point of the

[01:49:40] movie and as interesting as this universe is I do think it's telling that the comics never stray away from Jack Burton and I don't really have an interest in seeing this movie if any continuation in this universe of Kurt Russell is not in it and I

[01:49:56] think fundamentally we know for a fact at this point that Dwayne Johnson is never going to let himself lose this much on screen and beyond that even though Kurt Russell got in a good shape for this movie if the rock walks on screen

[01:50:10] in a big trouble in little china movie you know immediately well this guy has to be the fucker he's got to win he's got to win all the again unless he does something that's more akin to the getaway or what's a movie with Sean William Scott the run

[01:50:24] down the run down he hasn't done something like that in 20 plus years that's right beginning of that's just at the beginning when he will do that kind of thing and that's the thing but he does do jumanji I will say jumanji is in that closest yeah

[01:50:38] super fun sort of playing on his heavy weight I would can I will I would like to come on the patreon and do jumanji to now do you mean welcome to the jungle or the next level the welcome to the jungle the third the second right

[01:50:56] rock and Kevin Hart movie that oh no that's the next level that's the next level that's next level technically jumanji three right sorry we're talking about the jumanji trilogy I'm sorry yes you're right you're right the third one then because that movie is straight up bananas it's

[01:51:12] bananas the one where they keep body swapping and two of the people are Danny DeVito and Danny Glover and so for a large portion of the movie the rock and Kevin Hart are just doing old man voices it's straight crazy

[01:51:26] you get now we have to do it on patreon now we have to reform oh no we're we're opening the game we're gonna take it to the next level we do we do the three jumanji since a thorough that's a good little patreon series that's not bad

[01:51:40] that's not bad I so enjoyed the second one I just yeah loved it and then the third one I was like I feel like this is a prank I feel like they that this is a I feel like this is like I almost feel like

[01:51:56] like Kevin Hart and the rock were doing these old man voices on set and we're like wouldn't it be funny if that's what we did for the next movie and they were like yeah okay we'll do it yeah whatever you want guys

[01:52:08] I also feel like there was an issue with that movie and this is my hot take is that I don't think Kevin Hart picked a character in the first movie and then he went so sorry in the second movie and then I think he decided to go

[01:52:24] really hard in the third movie because when you watch that movie Karen Gillan Jack Black and the rock are all doing I think arguably fantastic performances of these kids yes and and Kevin Hart is doing Kevin doing Kevin Hart doing Kevin Hart exactly which is not bad

[01:52:42] oh yeah it's enjoyable but it's not the level I'm so short I counter to that I think Hart plays Glover far more successfully and specifically than rock plays DeVito where he's sort of doing generic old man I want to say wait after my recent

[01:53:02] surgery when they kept me in the hospital and I had morphine surging through my veins and was watching the TV system they had at the hospital the two movies I watched immediately while I drugged out of my mind were Wild Mountain Time and Jumanji

[01:53:20] the next level and both of them I just sat there going yes of course correct like they're both movies that make perfect sense this is on my level right now yes when you're literally hooked up to the drip I just think I think aside from the fact that

[01:53:38] the rock perhaps does not let himself lose that much and the rock is I'm sorry not the rock but it just becomes a movie about a capable guy who's getting the job done that's my thing visually the second he enters a frame he is

[01:53:54] incapable of being low status even if he's a little kid in his body we know this from our love of the Fast and Furious movies contractually the rock cannot lose a fight well and that in that in that world I believe that like if he's produced

[01:54:10] our movies but I but I think what we have to do is and this is kind of what we were talking about when you and I you know when we did our grip when we did our galaxy quest thing yes like you'd have to really

[01:54:24] it would have to be meta in some way like he'd really have to commit to being like it would have to be one of these things like I don't have powers in this world I am just this other yes like and they'd have to figure out some way

[01:54:38] to comedically make him that because I don't again I think it's a hard needle to thread I think the only person I can think of is Chris Pratt that can really do it I think Ryan Reynolds could be fun but he's almost too slick you need

[01:54:48] somebody a little bit more lumpy and I don't know a better return than that like you know it's like but it's it but if you don't but it this movie isn't this movie is only interesting because it well not only this movie is interesting because

[01:55:02] it subverts white savior and they know rock is not a white savior but it's like yeah here's who I'll take in this part I'll take Wyatt Russell in this part yes oh yeah I mean I love right Wyatt Russell's energy I'll take I'll take I'll take Lodge 49

[01:55:18] era Wyatt Russell you know not Falcon and Winter Soldier Wyatt Russell you know like but he gets he gets that same shaggy vibe or you know the the Richard Link letter movie the name of which I can never remember everybody wants him thank you yes

[01:55:36] so funny in that movie like I'll take that version of it you know the rock problem is if he wants to remake or reboot one of the flops of you know this time period that then gained a cult following the one he would fit into really

[01:55:52] well which I would also argue is more worthy of a reboot because it is a less successful film create can I say what I think you're gonna say yeah I could be wrong Logan's run no but that's an interesting idea alright last action hero last

[01:56:10] yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes the rock and last action hero if they announce that tomorrow I would go money in the fucking bank that's so smart that is you need to lean into this guy is unreal right there is yes real world about this

[01:56:26] dude looking at this guy is is a cinematic experience right yes right and I think like you look at a central intelligence and Jumanji the two Jumanji movies he did were both times he's playing lower status in terms of playing insecure people right an awkward teen in this

[01:56:44] insane body I think he's very good at that that's probably the mode I think he does best these days but both of those he remains so high status just because of his physical power the joke is like this is a kid controlling a robot it doesn't know what

[01:57:00] it's doing it is the Arnold problem it is the Arnold problem when you put Arnold into stand a lot and less it is unless it is you know predator or total recall or these kind of like iconic T Terminator movies when you put him into twins and and

[01:57:20] kindergarten cop and all these other movies he's starting he just he the tension between yes his physicality and his his accent in this in service of what is supposed to be just a regular guy scientist or a regular guy it makes no sense and that's where the rock

[01:57:38] is right now he starts playing that tension too much to the point where it goes from being very funny very successful to ultimately defanging him in every genre simultaneously now the comedies are less impactful and he can't go back to action

[01:57:52] well I guess what I would also say too is you know where the rock I think it'll be interesting to see black Adam I'm not the biggest black Adam fan not that I'm not a fan of black I just don't know much about

[01:58:04] I'm curious about that movie but Shazam is the better casting for for me seeing the rock do what the rock is actually good at the rock doing Shazam is interesting to me I think big body and it would and that and then Zach Zach Levi great

[01:58:22] very good in that movie but that to me is a way more fun role as a superhero I agree I agree because I think he has the right he also has the right kind of um his persona uh aligns with Shazam you know I mean the whole thing

[01:58:38] and 2003 the rock would have been perfect for Shazam 2019 the rock he would have taken over the movie the whole way the Shazam works is they kind of snuck it through where I feel like you know it didn't cost that much for a superhero movie in DC

[01:58:52] was kind of just like yeah you're doing the comedy who care and like that movie is you know funny profound kind of actually scary like it actually is good for because no one less people have their eyes on it yeah but it's a little bit like these carpenter

[01:59:08] movies where right they snuck through one and then they just go through the other I just want to run through quickly uh as we're going through like sort of mythologies of action stars of this era and whatever to recenter back to to Kurt

[01:59:22] right so we're talking about like the 80s it's like he's doing all this great work and none of the stuff is as successful or as well regarded at the time as it should be and he gets into this zone where it's sort of like

[01:59:34] well he's like a movie star but he can't be the only movie star and he's a good like secondary name right after this he does best of times with Robin Williams right before this oh interesting and then after this it's over bored

[01:59:50] now he's reteamed with Goldie they're trying to build a movie from the ground up that fits into their chemistry rather than swing shift that they sort of tried to change midway into more of a romantic comedy then he does tequila sunrise with

[02:00:04] Mel Gibson and Michelle Pfeiffer two people who are bigger movie stars on their own than winter people with Kelly McGillis in 1930s Appalachra a widowed city clock maker falls in love with an unwed mother and finds himself in the middle of a long standing feud between two clans

[02:00:22] that is how he closes out didn't go, yeah it wasn't a hit now his next movie his next movie is arguably his first down the middle hit which is tango and cash tango and cash with Stallone and he's riding Stallone's back but that's the first time

[02:00:40] he has something that actually plays as a hit when it came out and he's sort of you know playing the wild man to Stallone's straight man the bigger star there then after that it's backdraft he's top bill but the movie's got so many people in the cast

[02:00:54] and the fire is really top but that movie was a hit that's a hit, you know but then it's you know unlawful and Captain Ron which don't hit Tombstone did Tombstone, I mean obviously Tombstone rules I guess Tombstone did pretty well it did pretty well and through

[02:01:12] amazing right and also I think Tombstone benefited him from the kind of word of mouth that he was the he really directed it you know like that the story the behind the scenes story of Tombstone you know it was his movie he kind of shadow

[02:01:28] directed it all that kind of stuff I mean I will say that Tombstone to me is like one of my favorites it's such a great western it's so good but I remember it being big so I guess it wasn't but I remember it being big and

[02:01:42] yeah because it was White Earp was the plot it was big but White Earp was the plot but what was interesting was I feel like the person who popped out of Tombstone was unquestionably Val Kilmer and for a brief moment I will say the Val Kilmer documentary

[02:01:58] if people have not watched it yet is absolutely incredible it's just called Val I don't I think it's on Amazon Prime or I don't remember where it is but it's on one of the streaming services it is fantastic and subsequently I watched it and then

[02:02:14] rewatched Top Gun, McGroober Real Genius he like you just watch his filmography Tombstone I watched earlier in the pandemic and it's he's just an incredible actor his what Kilmer can do I would like a Val Kilmer miniseries David you would not have to sell David hard on that

[02:02:36] yeah I love Val Kilmer so much I'm a big you know it's interesting I need to watch it. Oh I'm shocked that you haven't watched the documentary it's almost as if having a child is distracting you from your job yeah some stupid excuse like that how dare

[02:02:50] Griff I feel like your overall point about Kurt is his biggest hits are usually where he's tying together with something else right like Tango and Cash, Stargate absolutely well the other thing this is the other point I sort of want to make is like

[02:03:04] by the time you get into the 90s the 80s carpenter movies have sort of been reclaimed he's a bigger star because the movies that flopped the first time around have now sort of elevated him to mild icon status and he's not quite elder statesman

[02:03:20] but you get something like Stargate where he's more just kind of plugged into that right like executive decision breakdown is great but at this point he's not doing the Kurt Russell carpenter thing he's not doing the wink he doesn't have the mischievous energy he's playing very well

[02:03:38] in largely good movies pretty straight down the middle and escape from LA happens in that period and that one's a flop like that's the one that sort of blows up in his face and I will say that executive decision I think is a very underrated good action movie

[02:03:52] and Steven Seagal one of his best performances because it's a great twist and there's so much good stuff there that one I feel like is his closest to being I mean I think back draft and that are his like that really is his Harrison

[02:04:08] those are his Harrison Ford swings right but he's what's interesting is like he never achieves leading man status he really is at the top end of character actor status I think you know like he's always he's or he's a leading man but in B movie

[02:04:26] versions of the he's in the movies that I feel like Harrison Ford and Michael Douglas are turning down right and he's playing back up to a bigger star he should have been in Black Rain Black Rain would have been funny another fish out of water

[02:04:40] in I mean that that movie is actually set in Japan Japan like exactly yeah yes it is you know but yeah but anyway that movie's I watched I watch you'll do when you do Ridley Scott that movie is I watched that movie like three months ago it's nuts

[02:04:58] I want to do a Patreon of Black Rain and Rising Sun the Wesley Snipes Sean Connery right and that one in Year of the Dragon if you really just want to do like mid 80s well that's early 90s but Hollywood movies that are straight up afraid

[02:05:14] just like afraid the Jared Leto Netflix one that's maybe the fourth in the series the outsider is the name of that movie oh I didn't know that one didn't really go anywhere yes that was yeah yeah it's a similar vibe similar yes he really is he is a

[02:05:32] sing it really you mentioned Pratt or we can probably come up with a couple others but Kurt Russell really especially this iteration of Kurt Russell is such a unique Hollywood voice yes really doesn't exist that much you can say that Jeff Bridges can do it sometimes

[02:05:50] yeah you know there are people who can access it but very few people are is it their kind of their their their most kind of realized voice and Kurt Russell is that Kurt Russell is the only person who can in a serious movie

[02:06:08] make you laugh and and have a sly wink going on while while not without letting the tension out of the movie without letting the foot off the gas you know what I mean absolutely I think what I'm realizing in this conversation ultimately is we are we

[02:06:26] have spent such a long time not we in this podcast but in general and cinema looking for the next Harrison Ford and I think that that's a misnomer I think we're looking for the next Kurt Russell because our movies now

[02:06:38] are blend like I think we give a lot to Harrison Ford say well he could be charming and he could be funny and he's an action star but in many ways what happens is like what we're having like the reboot of Tron

[02:06:50] and we went through all these male actors is like who's the next one who's and it was just like no no no and then when Chris headlin' on them right all these guys yeah we come in and we go that's what we want and what we wanted

[02:07:02] and maybe what I think we're saying is like Kurt Russell is what we what is needed now Harrison Ford was like back then and we are like cause I do feel like that was a search that we were really looking for

[02:07:14] and I think that what's his face the guy plays Thor Chris Hemsworth also even travels a little bit in this world of he can right he turns out to be a secret Kurt yeah yeah we thought he was a Lungarin but he's a secret Kurt

[02:07:26] he definitely has some of that energy which is very fun and makes it interesting and I think we're also getting to see some of that from people like Chris Pine or other people who previous to this have been stuck inside of very rigid structures about what is

[02:07:46] what is a leading man's kind of voice you know by the way I did it's a movie where they hire a best man I think Josh Gad and Kevin Hart did oh yeah oh the wedding ringer the wedding ringer I did that when it was Chris Pines

[02:08:04] pet project that he was I did a table read for that I was at that table read so Chris Pine was trying to be that guy but that was his Chris Pine is a phenomenal actor seeing him on stage the best

[02:08:18] I just love that he was like oh I want to scratch this Vince Vaughn itch I can do this and he was very very capable in that role like he could do that him in fucking into the woods yeah that's a great Paul Vince Vaughn

[02:08:34] Vince Vaughn was trafficking in Kurt Russell-esque vibe yeah I think you know when we meet Vince Vaughn I think you don't think so Griff no no I was gonna say our buddy Connor Ratliff always talks about this that like he thinks the single biggest issue

[02:08:50] with Phantom Menace is that Vince Vaughn isn't in it and he uses Vince Vaughn as a stand in but he's like that's the guy who would have given you in 1999 the energy that Harrison Ford was giving you in 1977 and would

[02:09:04] have been able to like be in the movie just enough but also sort of say to the audience like let's not take this too seriously the person that I'm always like whenever I watch a movie that I'm like ooh this was so almost good

[02:09:18] but I think it was casting the person that I always say I think it would have been better if this person was in that role is always Sam Rockwell oh interesting oh interesting see my take on that I always go to Oscar Isaac

[02:09:34] because Oscar Isaac's a guy who like has the heft but I also think is always funny and can play and that's how I feel about Rockwell I feel like Rockwell has a light touch but he's such a good dramatic actor but he can sell I would watch Sam

[02:09:50] Rockwell try and fail and enjoy it so much the way that I enjoy Kurt Russell trying and failing well I think that Sam Rockwell is able to really like he has a real cocksurance to his characters and I think I think that he has like he is like

[02:10:06] the acting version of Bill Murray like he's got that looseness but I think it is very studied and that's not an insult I think that he really works these characters where Bill Murray is that guy I don't know if Sam Rockwell is that guy but he can become

[02:10:22] that guy and that's really interesting you know what's weird I guess he did the Fawcyshow but Sam Rockwell won an Oscar and since then I feel like he's like where is Sam Rockwell what I want more another Oscar nomination for playing George W. Bush

[02:10:38] for four minutes you're forgetting about that I know I'm not forgetting about that and I liked him in Jojo Rabbit I think you're right it's those few supporting parts it's Fawcysverden and then it's COVID shuts everything down you know I know that

[02:10:52] he I know that him and Ben Schwartz are going to do a movie together right right right it's wild that I have not gotten the like sort of like hey Sam Rockwell you want an Oscar is there a movie you really

[02:11:02] want to fucking make you know like at least one of those yet but anyway it is weird that like the following year he gets another supporting actor nomination and the year after that he is one of the flashy supporting roles in a best picture

[02:11:14] nominee he's in Jojo Rabbit and then that same year he's in Richard she fucking rules in I was about he's great in Richard Joule but and I don't really like Jojo Rabbit I think he's actually really funny I agree Jojo Rabbit yeah he's great

[02:11:28] he's great in everything he's always good even in movies that are not good or unsuccessful or whatever he is always great he's always you know what I want Sam Rockwell in a Shane Black movie yeah you know what I mean like I want I want Sam Rockwell

[02:11:44] and this is this is like no shade to either of the leads of the nice guys but like I want Sam Rockwell in that movie you know what I mean like I want that again he's shaggier than Ryan Gosling is you know like he's more inept he doesn't

[02:12:02] feel capable but while still feeling like he belongs there like in what's the Ridley Scott movie that he's in with oh Bastic Man which is so good good movie great movie great Sam Rock going toe to toe with Nicholas Cage it's great

[02:12:18] I was just going to say very briefly that you know people were predicting that you guys were going to come on this miniseries at some point right our reddit likes to blow up the second miniseries is announced and try to game where they think

[02:12:32] past guests or people they've seen us interacting with on Twitter would fit in and everyone so that I guess that counts as real nerdy stuff oh real nerdy shit but I they were all trying to math out like well the use cars episode the reason

[02:12:44] that worked is it becomes two hours of them talking about the state of comedy movies what carpenter movie has the same potential for them to go off on a similar state of the industry diatribe and they were like

[02:12:56] I don't know none of them really fit what would it be you guys just want to do big trouble we were happy to acquiesce and then you come on and suddenly we've now started deconstructing the entire last 50 years of the American leading man well I mean

[02:13:10] it's really true because like we are in a period without movie stars and without leading men we have now had two generations of no leading men really you know like maybe you could argue I feel like David your your favorite Adam driver is

[02:13:28] like the leading man of right now and I love Adam driver no all I want to do is talk about Annette oh my god and that is and that is the and that gave me a panic attack and I was I am trying to convince

[02:13:46] Amy to do a special on spoil I'm like I just need to talk about it for two hours holy shit that movie was so crazy and really captured what it is to be a comedian anyway what were you going to say Paul

[02:14:00] no I don't know I don't even know all I say I like Adam driver I think that what we're finding is back to this thing not to reiterate my own point I think that what we want in a leading man

[02:14:12] or what we want in a leading man now is a vulnerability and an openness and I would even argue that yes the rock is a big hulking mask but the fact that he could turn himself down for Jumanji do these other things shows that even our leading

[02:14:24] men at this point have to be a little bit more vulnerable and I know we've done that before with like Schwartz and Eger and even still own they've had their one offs but I do believe now like the best leading man has to be able to do it

[02:14:36] all and a little bit make fun of themselves but I think that that's what Kurt Russell's bread and butter was and I think back then in the 80s that was not what people wanted or is there some no and I agree with you guys that everyone

[02:14:48] doesn't know what to make of it at the time and then he really does become the model that everyone's trying to fulfill even if they like to say we're looking for Tom Hanks Tom Cruz Harrison Ford like they cite

[02:15:00] the guys who were running the table in the box office at the time but Russell is sort of the platonic ideal I would say even just in terms of what types of movies get made now the attitude and the energy of our biggest blockbuster

[02:15:14] films the Marvel movies all have this sort of Kurt Russell tone to them where they need that deafness that lightness of touch right the ones that people like the most the ones that were age the best right it's Downey Junior it's Chris Pratt it's Hemsworth when he starts

[02:15:28] getting funny you know that's and it's really if you look at it if you look at it's it's not just Downey Junior it's Downey Junior with Shane Black yeah because Shane Black has an uncredited rewrite on Iron Man one and does Iron Man three and then you've got

[02:15:42] Tyka and then you've got gun for those guys are well is a shaggy dog comedy guy who's the sure yes hum yeah totally but the rest of the Marvel movies don't have that exact in arm and the DC movies are are lacking in any sense

[02:15:58] of humor or any sense of shagginess they are Dower and as we you guys came on our show and talked about the Snyder cut like it is they are so gray and lifeless to me in a way that right now what we want is there to be

[02:16:14] a we don't have movies right now or big movies I guess that have fallible people in them like Vin Diesel and the Rock can't lose a fight in fast and furious movies and so we have movies in which everybody is essentially invincible to both emotional and impervious to

[02:16:34] physical harm which is very bizarre it's a two problem of I think so many of these stars being unwilling to lose any status and the executives thinking what people want to see is people who are fucking awesome winning it everything all the time and you get these

[02:16:52] movies that are just two and a half hours of guitar and you know we are going to say that we are playing a song we are listening to the music so we are just going to play it with a little bit of a flow

[02:17:04] you know with like no melody but I would also argue that this is also what some of our greats have transformed into and I say greats by saying like Robert Downey Jr. I don't think plays that anymore and won't play that anymore

[02:17:20] I think Vince Vaughn won't play that anymore mid 50s to early 60s. I agree, yes. That's generation. What I'm saying is, where are the 35 year old versions of that? And that's where we have this huge problem where we're continuing to talk about,

[02:17:38] we a group of people in our, I mean, I'm the oldest at 48 and the rest of you are late 30s, 40s, right? Is my assumption except for- 25, I mean 25, but that's cool, yeah, but yeah. So the reality is it's so hard to point to anybody

[02:17:54] in the younger generation, even our contemporary generation that has Ryan Reynolds. Ryan Reynolds. Capability, I guess it is, it's Ryan Reynolds. But even he- He's the one who's figured out the most of anybody. Even he is approaching 50. Yeah.

[02:18:07] And it took so long for him to crack it, like two swings. Yeah. The other thing that is frustrating about him is what he's figured out is he has really figured out how to sell a movie online.

[02:18:19] In a way that I find kind of like headachey and depressing, but then I watch how he gets a movie like Free Guy where I was like, oh no one's interested in this, like you can barely explain the plot, like who cares,

[02:18:34] gets that movie over the sort of box office hump in a pandemic. And I was kind of like, I kind of have to hand it to his insane kind of workaholic online presence, right? He's just like, guys, guys, you gotta come.

[02:18:48] You gotta, you know, like his super enthusiasm kind of sold everyone on that movie. But it's also the way he cracked the code is that everything's become Deadpool. Like not only has he reverse engineered how he works in other movies around Deadpool, but the marketing feels

[02:19:03] like it's written by Deadpool. Everything, yeah, everything feels like it's a dead- It's an extension of Deadpool. Right, it's a great- Like he is the Deadpool extended universe. I think that somebody tried to crack it a little bit

[02:19:18] with the, let's just call it the horrible boss triple head, right? Bateman, Charlie Day and Sedeikis, right? Like at that point, I think that that was the attempt to be like these are the guys. These are our new guys. These are our new people.

[02:19:34] But immediately, like even Charlie Day was in the big Pacific Rim. It's like, I feel like it's weird because you almost have to have enough sway to control the whole movie around you. It's not enough to be even be in it anymore.

[02:19:48] You have to like, you have to steer the ship, which is I think the reason why Vince Vaughn even came into the play because of swingers. It's like they had enough control there. I don't know. Am I making sense? Maybe I'm talking about- No, no, no. I don't-

[02:20:02] Yeah, because even you look at early Bill Murray when it's like people like rightman being like just chop and do your thing, you know? Yeah. The things that make comedy stars are movies where the stakes are low enough and you have a director

[02:20:13] who really understands and trusts the person and gives them space to figure the thing out. Beverly Hills Cop, I mean all your Eddie Murphy movies at the beginning of his career were like that too where it was like we're hiring you to do your thing

[02:20:25] and we're going to take the pressure off of you and just give you the circumstances to shine. I think they're really the only person who is, I think currently exists inside of this space but is now also getting older is Seth Rogen. You know?

[02:20:41] Oh my God, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Rogen is in a position to write and direct and also to write and direct movies that he is in. He also is in a position to make and produce other stuff that like whether it's the boys or whether it's

[02:20:58] a sausage party or you know, he's got his fingers in stuff that is very interesting, very current and feels very relevant and is one of the only comedic voices that I understand currently what his point of view is. Yes. You know? And that that is like,

[02:21:17] I don't know what anybody else's point of view is comedically other than just you know, this movie. But also yes, but he's become a little bit more of a mogul than a movie star in a way that's impressive and I do think there's a point of view

[02:21:32] that's consistent. He has quality control and whatever but you look at like neighbors to 2016, then he arguably doesn't do another like Seth Rogen vehicle until long shot 2019 and then American Pickle goes to HBO Max and sort of falls into the pandemic memory hole

[02:21:49] and he's got tons of credits in between all of those things but they're either like him doing extended cameos or voice over roles or TV stuff that he's producing. But here's the thing. Maybe maybe we're getting off track because I may have pulled us in the wrong direction

[02:22:02] and saying, are we? You're kidding me. Yeah, I get you know what? I think the difference is this. Seth Rogen is a leading man, but he's not an action star. And I think that that and that's and that is the subtle kind of difference like give it time.

[02:22:15] But by but you know what I'm saying? Like he like he did Green Hornet. But I think where Seth Seth is just is putting out like Eddie Murphy and this is somebody we haven't talked about is the perfect mix of this guy who was also very funny,

[02:22:28] very likable. You buy him as being sexy. You buy him as being like he kind of walks this different line where he could kind of go all over the map more than most of other people. That was in an era where action stars didn't actually need

[02:22:43] to be able to like clear a room with like brute force. Right. Or action scenes could be a little smaller, a little goofier where bodies didn't have to be quite as sort of imposed. You know what I mean? Like and now I feel like it's harder

[02:22:56] like Seth Rogen doing the Green Hornet kind of him trying to find like how do I do an action movie? Right. Like that movie wasn't even a flop. Like, you know, it's a decent movie. But his takeaway from that was we had an idea

[02:23:09] of what we wanted to do when your movie goes over a certain budget level, the amount of people have to weigh in and every single decision becomes such a headache. We lost control that after that, I mean he said as much directly in interviews after that

[02:23:21] every time we come up with a movie, we go to the studio and we go, what is the number, the budget number that if we keep it under that, you'll let us do whatever we want. And for every one of his movies, he's like,

[02:23:32] if I can deliver neighbors at $26 million and we all defer our salaries, can we get no notes? You know? Yeah. This is the end is a movie with set pieces and effects, but they figure out how to keep that under a certain budget level.

[02:23:44] Like that's the thing he does now is I would rather defer my payday and have more control of the thing in the moment rather than having to level up to the bigger thing where I then have to politic around all these people.

[02:23:57] And what an incredible thing to figure out at that early stage to be able to pivot and then just from then till now grow exponentially. Because he was like, I have no interest in trying to do Green Hornet ever again

[02:24:10] and if I need to be in a bigger movie, I will take the offer to be Pumba and Lion King. And while not all of his movies have been absolute hits, he's never had another Green Hornet. No. You know what I mean?

[02:24:24] Like he's really like had a run of good to great movies that have been under his control to a degree, to some degree or another. And these are some of what I think of as the best comedies of the last 15 years, you know?

[02:24:40] I think he is behind a lot of great comedy. I think one of the things that is really interesting about Seth and Evan as a duo. And again, this is getting further away, but they also are doing, they also do something really interesting,

[02:24:51] like they are really good directors who elevate some simpler comedic, like I think in the past we've seen very simple comedy. Like as far as directing is gone, you know, like and I think that like when they actually, they actually, I mean,

[02:25:06] they directed The Pilot for Black Monday. It looked phenomenal. I mean, they've also directed a lot of other stuff too, but they really elevate. They're doing a lot of stuff, but I do think in comedy, yes, there's a bunch of people in comedy,

[02:25:18] but who is that person that can do comedy and be a leading man in the sense of a sex symbol, which I think Kurt Russell kind of is. I think when you think about Kurt Russell, you don't go comedian. I think you think of him as,

[02:25:30] he's a leading man in a different way. Like a, I don't know. I mean, I know it's a subtle difference. It's almost like, it's almost like and this person I think is not this, but if Zac Efron had that, kind of that swagger and that wink,

[02:25:46] which he doesn't have, he can do what he does and he does it very well, I think, but he doesn't have that Kurt Russell other gear. I mean, the Kurt thing to get things slightly back on track is that he's able to do both simultaneously

[02:26:02] in equal measure without sacrificing one to the other. Like that's the thing that I feel like so few guys have pulled off and someone like Pratt pulls it off and then doesn't always recognize what the right application of that is.

[02:26:15] It seems to less and less, I would say. Right, but like the Kurt thing where he's just kind of equally good at everything, but he never becomes a joke, but he lands every joke. You know? Yeah, yeah, it's a tough doubt. And he's never quite a comedian,

[02:26:32] but he's a comedy star. But he can sell a joke. But he can sell a joke, you know? He understands what the joke is and can sell it. And you would be very hard pressed, I think. I wrote it down every time in this movie in my notes.

[02:26:46] He does not win a single fight until the very end when he catches the knife and throws it at low pan. Or like when they burst through and they have the first shootout and he's wild firing. He's never shot a gun before. Yeah.

[02:27:04] And he kills that guy and the guy, he's with two guys who work at a restaurant. And the other guy goes, what? You've never plugged someone before? I love that. What are you talking about? You work at a restaurant. You guys are restaurant employees.

[02:27:17] Why do you have a facility with guns? Why are you like, and he, the leading, the swaggery leading man has to kind of save face and be like, of course, you know, or whatever. But he's clearly, he clearly hasn't. He's never shot a gun.

[02:27:33] My favorite thing is when Kim Ketrol's like, you know, how are you going to, and he's like, I got a knife. You know, he says it proudly. And so she's going to be like, Oh, well, you have a knife. Okay.

[02:27:44] And then he actually gets to have the moment where he throws the knife triumphantly, totally misses cut back to Kurt Russell going like, God damn it. He's just stuck in a wall. It's that moment where he climbs in. It's the moment where he climbs in

[02:27:58] where every, all the women are in cages in like the underground layer. And he climbs in and he's on the roof of what's, wait, who is it? What's not Kim Ketrol, but who did we? Kate Burton. He's on Kate Burton's thing and he goes, don't worry.

[02:28:15] And she goes, how are you going to spring us? And he goes, I have no idea. You know, he really, you know, he really has no idea. He's not even faking it. He's not even saying, I'll come up with something

[02:28:28] or I've got a plan or any of those things that a capable lead would say. He literally was like, I have no idea. I'm winging it here. You know, I think what we all want is that moment from Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark

[02:28:41] where the swordsman comes out with the sword flipping it around. And then he goes to, yeah, it goes to, yeah. Like that's what we want. Like that, that is our, at least the people who I think that are our age, we love that, that energy.

[02:28:56] And that's Indiana Jones winning, but it's also cheating. And there's something really fun about that. And that's what we want. Personality. Yes. And that's what we want. What's kind of wonderful about Kurt Russell is that scene would happen and he would miss. Yes.

[02:29:13] And the guy would come after him and he would have to run away. He would run away. He would have to flee. And that's what's, that's the difference between Harrison Ford and Kurt Russell is Harrison Ford's characters are 25 degrees more capable. Right. 25% more capable.

[02:29:31] And Kurt Russell is not. He shoots a gun and he misses and he has to then figure out a new plan, you know? And that there's just that wobbliness makes him so fun in this movie. At least that's what I was delighted by while watching it. Agreed.

[02:29:46] Can I share something related to the end? Ben, Jesus, like talk, talk so much in this episode. Yak yak yak. Yak yak yak. Well, you know, come on. We've got a lot of people on Mike, but I just wanted to jump in because the fact that yeah,

[02:30:07] the only time he wins a fight is when he, you know, basically like on a lark throws the knife and hits low pan. So in the book series, something that it's like a detail I don't think we've really touched upon

[02:30:22] that they've really explore is that there's all these different variations of hell. This is like kind of a running joke throughout the movie. You're going to go to the hell where they rip your skin off or whatever. Right, exactly. So this is this recurring trope throughout the book

[02:30:39] where it's just like they keep going to all these different funny versions of hell and they're like really specific and really like abstract and absurd. But low pan goes to hell. The version of hell he goes to is the hell for people who were killed by idiots.

[02:30:54] Oh, that's really funny. That's amazing. That's so funny. That's amazing. Yeah, yeah. And it's like, so even like again, that triumphant moment, the way that they're really looking at it is that even again, it's like he's such an idiot that like it was just fucking

[02:31:11] dumb luck that that even like connected. Well, the other, the other one was when he successfully kills the guy in heavy armor, but then gets trapped underneath him. Oh, with the knife and the boot. Well, the fight rages around him.

[02:31:26] He's trapped under the weight of the armor clad man that he just killed. That's again so funny. And by the way, that's the one move he does after waking up after knocking himself out by shooting the pillar above him.

[02:31:40] Like it's like, it's a fight where he increasingly keeps on getting himself stuck into fucking jams. That moment is so good to, I mean, this is like talking about the shit that these fucking movies don't recognize where it's just like seeing a guy doing something cool.

[02:31:53] A certain point doesn't really register, especially if your movie is just a two hours of a guy doing something cool. But a moment like that where the guys attacking Corrosal, he's just knocked himself out. He's coming to, he's arguably can cussed, right?

[02:32:08] All he knows is I got to get this knife out of my boot because that's all I have going for me. And then struggling to get the knife out of the boot he by accident recognizes it's easier to push the knife through the boot than get it out.

[02:32:20] I can't even do the thing I was trying to do. And it's like, oh, an accidental win. He stabs the guy, no, never mind. Now you're caught up in fucking like plates of armor. Yeah. Oh, there's a great moment again.

[02:32:32] We're in the third act of the movie and he goes, do you know what Jack Burton says at a time like this? And somebody goes, who? Just such a good joke. But when is that not funny? He's the lead of the hero in his own mind.

[02:32:48] And people, the people around him are like, why are you here? Yeah. Yeah. It's a great movie. It's fun, man. It's fucking fun. Can you tell I'm trying to bring this episode into to landing? I'm trying to try to try to, you know, put the flaps down

[02:33:04] and bring out the landing gear and maybe play the box office game, although Griffin, we've actually played this box office game before. I don't know if you remember. Fuck. July, it's fourth of July weekend 1986. Yeah. And this movie opened number 12. Crazy. Crazy.

[02:33:21] This movie makes 11 in total off a budget of 25. Yeah. And like nothing internationally reported, although I guess I think international numbers for the 80s are just kind of not as available. So that's probably, you know, can I just read this, this quote quickly? Sorry.

[02:33:37] It was from a Kurt Russell career retrospective entertainment week. He did in 2016. He said a lot of people on the junk. It said, how does it feel to be in a movie that you know is going to be a massive hit? This is fascinating.

[02:33:50] And I would falsely humble say, Hey, well, you never know. You just got to see how it does. But inside I was going, yeah, I'm so happy. And then it came out like this was the first time he was thinking this is I finally got it.

[02:34:01] We figured it out. Yeah. We've nailed the persona. It's the perfect character. I mean, I think it's a great character. I mean, I think it's a great character. We've nailed the persona. It's the perfect thing. Everyone was like so bullish on this.

[02:34:14] Here are the new movies, none of which are in the top five. It's opening behind Psycho three. The one I think that Anthony Perkins directed. Wow. Great mouse detective, which Griffin is why we've done this before. Yeah. About last night and under the cherry moon,

[02:34:32] the legendary Prince movie, which we did on our show. So all of these movies are in the bottom half of the 10. Yeah. That's eight, nine, 10, 11 and then big trouble is 12. None of those movies can crack the top seven.

[02:34:46] So this is kind of like a legendary flop weekend where like a lot of shit is being thrown at audiences and audiences are mostly like, no thanks. Like obviously like two great mouse detectives had long legs. The others not so much right.

[02:35:02] Well, I mean to be fair, the great mouse detective had short legs. They were only like an inch. He has tiny little mouse. That's a good point. Number one of the box office is a sequel that is just a colossal

[02:35:14] hit, not a great movie, but just is it Rambo to know more family Rambo too. More family focused colossal hit 1986. Not a great movie. What is it Spielberg adjacent at all? No. Jason, what's your question? Is it a vacation movie? No, not a vacation.

[02:35:37] It's an action kids action. Paul, oh, I was going to say look who's talking to action for kids starring kids or both? It stars a kid and an older guy. It's a sequel a little older. Yeah, kids getting older.

[02:35:54] This one, you know what Griffin this one always stumps you. Yeah, it always stumps you. It's from an Oscar winning director. Although he may not actually won. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, this one always stumps me because it's one

[02:36:05] of these things where when you when you describe the elements of it, it sounds like what could possibly fill all this. But I know exactly what it is. Don't say anymore. It's karate kid part two. Oh, I always get stumped by the karate kid franchise because

[02:36:19] when you describe it in pieces, it sounds like no movie fulfills all of that. Yeah. And it was a hit. It was a huge like like world beating phenomenon, even the second one, which like isn't that good.

[02:36:31] And by the way, another movie that takes place and and and leans more into this fascination with culture overseas. I mean, yeah, it's culture. Yeah, that no, it's it's a big thing at the time, like undoubtedly number two at the box office is a comedy

[02:36:46] Griffin that we've again, of course, we've done this box office game. It's kind of the launch done within this calendar fascinating comic star career. My brain is motion now 1986. Fascinating comic star career. We were just talking about a movie he was in. Right. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

[02:37:07] Yes. I got something this one as well because I went what leading man could this possibly describe and the answer is, of course, it's Rodney. Oh, is it is it back to school? Yeah, it is not Rodney. What back to school? Griffin is number three. Okay.

[02:37:20] So you did get it. You did get it. Okay. No, this is a more diminutive Dudley Moore. Not Dudley Moore. What even more diminutive than Dudley Moore. I think so. And now we want to do a hike comparison, but this guy's small. Is he young?

[02:37:39] This guy's really small. Is he young? No. Is this guy is I want to know what it is. I know it is twins. Ruthless. Neither it's ruthless people. There you go. Wow. I was going to say, you know what?

[02:37:52] I thought it was going to be first Bueller's, but then when I heard small, I was like, okay, look, we're talking small. Dudley Moore towers over 410 Danny DeVito at five three. So number three is back to school, which is doing great,

[02:38:06] which is kicking ass, which made 10 times as much money as fucking big trouble little China. Yeah, like back to school was a huge hit. Number four is the biggest movie of the year maybe or second, you know, one of the giant hits of the year. Yeah. 1986.

[02:38:22] Biggest movie of 1986 would be is it a franchise movie? No. Well, there's a sequel coming one day. Maybe. Oh, it is of course the movie. Top gun. Oh, one day we'll get the sequel, right guys? Right. With the way the water levels are rising. Who knows.

[02:38:48] And number five of the box office. It's a comedy. It has one of America's most iconic stars leaning on a desk wearing a nice sweater. This is the it's I always get the name mixed up. It's legal Eagles. Legal Eagles. Redford Wenger, Hannah. Yeah.

[02:39:04] And I've been right in films. And I've been right in films. Twins is two years later. Yeah. Funny. Yeah. That's your top five and then number six, Paul. Running scared. Running scared. Oh, wow. We've done this weekend twice before. And number seven.

[02:39:24] No, no, running scared was new last week. Oh, okay. And number seven, Ferris Bueller. So, wow. Oh, there we are. There you go. Did it open at seven or how long? Where is it? It's been out for a month. It's made 33 of his $70 million.

[02:39:40] So it's going to be around for a while. That movie was massive to me. Yeah. That was massive. Paul Labyrinth is also out right now just to speak of, you know, other. Oh yeah. And as is Gung Ho. Oh, wow. Gung Ho. It is interesting.

[02:39:59] No, you were saying this, but just this really was the peak of western fascination with the East. And, you know, got all kinds of countries over there. You heard of these guys? Right. It truly is that energy. Gung Ho is special.

[02:40:14] The things like Gung Ho is a movie that's hard to watch now. Like something like Big Trouble is more like what is complicated about its legacy is only that it was following in such a trend of like every Asian person is magical in some way or another.

[02:40:31] In this movie, it's literally magical and something like Mr. Miyagi. It's like you are the wisest, most profound, most talented. I think, you know, you have these character actors who suddenly are getting elevated to like a higher level.

[02:40:42] There's more representation, but the representation is so limited in terms of like you have to be this kind of perfect angelic saintly or demon like character. At least this, the thing about this movie is at least it lets its Asian American actors or, you know, it's big cast.

[02:40:59] Yeah. Talk like normal people. They're not accented in a way that is like there's nothing to meaning about these people. And just dispense like, you know, sort of fortune cookie wisdom or all that shit.

[02:41:11] The complaint is obviously you're siloing them into the only two things they're allowed to do, but they're doing those two things in a way where they're given a lot more humanity and respect. They were in any other movies of this time.

[02:41:23] You also just have to acknowledge the fact that the movie has essentially two Caucasian speaking roles like really is just in terms of how many people got work off of this fucking movie and got work in primary positions. You know? And I will, yeah.

[02:41:38] I know we're saying it and saying it, but it's like they're not they're not the butt of the joke. It's not like there's no like how do you use these chopsticks? Or like it's almost like the butts of the joke. People are the morons. Yeah.

[02:41:49] I was just going to say if anything Kurt Russell is the butt of the joke over and over and over again. And then control to a secondary degree. Yeah. Yes. So look, I mean my wife just sent me a picture of my child nodding off.

[02:42:02] I just would love to be done guys. I know you want the record. Every episode now is like a ticking clock. No, no, no. We got to do it naturally. We got to do it naturally.

[02:42:11] I'm not going to we're not, we don't need to force a record and listen, I thought Alex's episode was fantastic and deserved its runtime. So I'm not trying to challenge a great, a great episode. Yeah. We're not, we don't want to beat it for no reason.

[02:42:27] If you want to like, you know, jump in on an ad read or maybe Griffin can really just go to town, you know, on like a Brooklyn and read. We could really beef up the ad reads. This episode is half an hour long. Oh my God.

[02:42:44] No, no, that's it's incentive for you guys to come back. You know, for those of us who when I hear ring ring and I hit the fast forward button people just fast forwarding for minutes and minutes and being like, what the fuck is going on?

[02:42:58] This commercial is still going. I heard people like who, who hate how long the ad reads are also go and he does that thing where every ad read starts with either bring bring or David. And I'm like motherfuckers, I do that for you.

[02:43:12] I start that warning one way. So you get the warning and you can skip, skip ahead if you want. By the way, I was doing something this week on Twitch for the DoorDash channel on Twitch.

[02:43:26] I was hosting an eGaming competition and some of the notes in the chat were like, oh man, I can't believe you guys are this is just a big ad for DoorDash. Mike, you're on the DoorDash channel on Twitch.

[02:43:42] So let's just like look at what let's look at the specifics here. You clicked the link. You went here of your own volition. What did you what did you think this would be? Yeah, this is by the way, it was very late on the ad, but we just

[02:43:59] mentioned it, you know, whatever we have to mention it. It wasn't over, but it's like you are literally on when you're looking at me, there's a logo for DoorDash underneath me. Like yeah, like the note that I've sold out on some levels like I'm not hiding it.

[02:44:14] I'm here on the DoorDash channel helping them do a very cool event that they were doing and that was it. But it was so funny like people really feel like this is starting to feel like an ad for DoorDash. No, no, it's not.

[02:44:25] Here's the thing, not just convenience stores, not just restaurants anymore. Now convenience stores. Look, I'm not going to accept this joke because we're not going to just, you know, interrupt this ad with more company plugs because of course, we know

[02:44:37] this episode was brought to you by Moobie 3C in purple. They are the only sponsors of this episode. Congratulations. You checked the spreadsheet. I did. I'm so proud. I got that link open. Very well done. Very well done.

[02:44:48] Paul, Jason, do you have any of the 10,000 things either of you were working on and give a moment to plug? When will this come out? This will come out very soon. It's coming out October 3rd. Oh, nice. Okay, great. Next week.

[02:45:01] So if you are interested, please check out obviously the podcast that Paul and I do with June Diane Raefiel called How Did This Get Made? If you like this show, I think you will like our show.

[02:45:15] It's a show about bad movies and it's us and usually a guest talking about bad movies. I'm also a voice in a new Star Trek animated show called Prodigy that is coming out on Nickelodeon and is absolutely stunningly gorgeous

[02:45:34] and really fun to be in the Star Trek world. As much fun, Griff, as it seemed like you were having in the He-Man world. I loved seeing you in there as Orca. Great work. Oh, it's like it's great.

[02:45:48] It's just everyone is so nice and normal to you online. I loved doing it. Yeah, it's bizarre. Not to go off on a tangent here, but Jason, do you find that when you do things like this, you immediately feel like, well, this isn't real.

[02:46:02] Like this doesn't count if I'm in it, then this franchise no longer has legitimacy. Oh yeah. Well, that's the why would I want to be part of a club that would have me as a member? You know, right? Yeah, right.

[02:46:13] I'm like, I have single-handedly made this expensive fan fiction. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But you know, but I'm so I delight to me. So I'm like, oh good. I hope nobody notices, but I get to be in Star Trek. Great. Let's do it. Rules. I'll be Orca forever.

[02:46:28] Oh, you know what I wanted to talk about dead too bad. What? What do you want to talk about? Here's how we could break the record, but I'm not even going to introduce it. Have you seen Star Wars? Vision? Oh, well, that's having you.

[02:46:40] I need to watch it. I haven't watched it. Jason. Jason. This is the thing. We haven't seen Star Wars vision. We need to talk about vision. Bonus content. David and I have not watched an episode between us. I want to watch it. We have to catch up.

[02:46:56] No, no. Bonus content. We put it somewhere. I'm in. I like I want to talk about it a lot. Me too. Would you be surprised to hear that every single episode has Kid Fisto in it? Oh my fucking god. I'm just kidding. What? Damn. Get ready. Get ready.

[02:47:14] I'm just freaking very jazzed. TC, TC 14. But I'm excited. There is an erotic TC 13 episode. What? I haven't gotten this. Just pushing our button. There's a hen. There's a hentai episode that stars TC 14. Do you know who is in the cast of Star Wars visions? James Hong. Wow.

[02:47:34] Of course he is. Of course he is. Of course he is. I really can't recommend Star Wars visions enough. I know a lot of people on this fandom love Star Wars. So it's exceptional. We'll watch and we'll do a three hour bonus episode on it.

[02:47:50] Well, I mean, I'm just basically going to basically do the same pitch that Jason did. Yes, you can listen to Hed's Get Made With Me. I think your audience will like. I also will say that I think you'll like the other show that I do called Unspooled

[02:48:02] where we talk about great movies. We just are in the middle of our horror series right now. We're called Scaretober. We're starting off with the Exorcist. We're going into the cabinet of Dr. Kalgari.

[02:48:12] And when we get our hundred best films, we were going to blast them into outer space. And Griff has been on that show. A pleasure. Cool. And I'm also on Star Trek. I'm on Star Trek Lower Decks.

[02:48:24] The comedic one, which is quite funny and there was a great episode that just recently came. I've been keeping it secret for a while, but my character's mother is played by June Diane Raefiel.

[02:48:37] And I won't tell you the I won't tell you the larger premise of it, which is actually very funny and more disturbing. But check it out. I play Lieutenant Phillips on all those episodes. Just to be clear, June is your wife and is playing your mother. Yes.

[02:48:53] Just to be clear. Yep. Cool. Terry. Check all that out. Cool. I appreciate your guys' honesty, but it is funny to hear you trying to pitch how did this get made and unspilled to our listeners as if they could somehow have skipped over those shows

[02:49:12] and gotten to ours first. You guys are you guys have got the goods. I mean, we were just talking about your show the other day.

[02:49:20] Yeah, I feel like there's probably a pretty weird big separation that is that I love, you know, I'm this has been one of my pandemic show, you know, one of my one of my pandemic listens has been this show because it allowed me to do also concurrent film watches.

[02:49:41] You know, so I could do the Elaine May movies. I could do I go backwards.

[02:49:47] I listened to all of the first Star Wars episodes because I when I found you guys I when I found you guys it was it was years ago but it still was years after that. But I was like, oh, I never listened to those first.

[02:50:00] I can't believe you listen to that. I can't believe Griffin and David present. Yes. I remember that. I remember that. You know, present head now. That's what our fans used to call themselves. Exactly. So it's been really fun to listen to and then have a reason to watch.

[02:50:17] This is what I love about.

[02:50:18] I think what people like about our show and what I've enjoyed about your show, especially during the pandemic is dialing in a filmography and watching along and getting to then have tune into your conversations because I like hearing you guys the same way that I like I said action boys is a

[02:50:34] Patreon podcast that I also love and have done a similar thing with that have really given me a reason to both watch movies, rewatch movies and then hear people that I love talk about them.

[02:50:44] You know, I will say this that I was recently getting into a thing on my discord because Amy and I have been picking movies to go to space, 100 movies to go to space and we've had a very strong agreement that one movie from one director and that is really made people furious.

[02:51:01] Right. And I was like, how can you just make Spielberg have one movie? How can you have, you know, or some of us have one movie and and what's been fun about it is well, it's the exercise.

[02:51:11] The exercise is simply that and that's not, you know, this is all for debate. And I said, you know, people are like, well, how can you decide that that's the movie when they have a body of work?

[02:51:21] I said, well, that's why you need to listen to blank check because they will they will determine you can listen to you can listen to the body of work. You can really see the full picture right now.

[02:51:30] Like we have the Wes Anderson on our list with a movie. We're not sure that that's the one that's going to stay, but we know he's earned a spot on the list. We just don't know what.

[02:51:39] Yeah, we don't know that way and I know my pick is for that, but other people probably have different picks for that. Yeah. For like the West Anderson for West Anderson. Yeah, let's go around the horn. What's your West Anderson grand Budapest for me.

[02:51:52] That to me is his magnum opus. That is that's Amy Nicholson's point of view as well. Yeah, Amy and I are two really smart, interesting, really beautiful people. I split between Rushmore and Budapest, but I maybe lean towards Rushmore for personal reasons,

[02:52:04] but also because it's got the lightning in a bottle solidification of a voice energy. Yeah. Royal Ten and Bombs, baby. Yeah, I mean, not a bad movie. Not too bad that one.

[02:52:15] But I think it's what hits you when, you know, in that movie just hit me right at the right time. I kind of feel like Grand Budapest encapsulates everything that is great about West Anderson in one film. It's like it's everything perfectly done, not overdone. Mm hmm.

[02:52:34] Royal Ten and Bombs gets me in an emotional way. I love that cast. I love the look. I love the feel.

[02:52:39] But then I also lean towards Rushmore as being the introduction, which was so definitively defining of the future of the way that people like the way that Quentin Tarantino entered in.

[02:52:51] Like even the Reservoir Dogs first, but I think Pulp Fiction has a longer lasting effect on the film world. I think that Rushmore does too. So I go back and forth between Rushmore and Ten and Bombs. It's tricky, but yeah, it's a hard one. It's hard.

[02:53:06] It's a fun exercise and this is a good reason to listen to Unspooled. And can I give you guys one more around the horn? This is why we talked about it. One more around the horn because this is one that I don't have an answer to.

[02:53:15] You're Cohen Brothers. What's your one Cohen Brothers? Miller's Crossing. Wow. That one's harder. I don't know, Griff. Who do you... Mine's Barton Think, which is one of my favorite all time movies, but I know that would be a tougher sell for everyone. I watched it a month ago.

[02:53:32] It's so good. I love that movie so much. It's so good. I shift on this a lot because my personal favorite by a fair distance is Hudsucker Broxy, which I could never argue is the best move. Tougher to argue is the space move.

[02:53:47] That is one of your craziest takes. Oh, I love it. I love it so much. I'm saying personal preference. I would never objectively argue it's the best one. I wouldn't even dare make that argument.

[02:53:58] For a while, I felt like Lew and Davis was sort of like the best encapsulation of their whole worldview and everything. It's a basic ass opinion, but I've watched Fargo like twice in the last year. I've maybe come around to that being just like the perfect movie.

[02:54:16] There's nothing wrong with that opinion. Yeah, that movie is incredible. That and No Country are just absolutely incredible masterpieces. I own No Country and I watch. For me, Miller's Crossing is just exceptional. It's what you want them to watch.

[02:54:33] Again, it's the movie that it came out like when I was, I think either just leaving high school or just starting college. So I watched it constantly. You know, I was obsessed with it. I need to give David is like, please let this stop.

[02:54:48] He's either going to make it or not. You can run. Do you want to check on the baby? I love you guys to be clear. David is crumbling. Go for it. Get out of here. Yeah, that's great. All right, you know what? That's a great call.

[02:55:04] You guys chat. Maybe you'll hit the record. David, I'm going to try to wrap up the episode. I ask one thing of you leave your chair where you're recording. Go check to see if your baby is still awake.

[02:55:14] If she is still awake, you have to run back in and just give us a thumbs up to let us know that you made it in time and then you can run back to her. Okay. Bye guys. Okay. Thank you all for listening.

[02:55:27] Please remember to rate, review and subscribe. Thank you to Marie Barty for our social media. Thank you to AJ McKeehan and Alex Barron for editing. Oh, you know what we didn't talk about? Oh, what? I just am looking at my notes. Sure. Yeah, producer Ben, what's up?

[02:55:45] When they drink the potion and they go in the elevator. Yes. And then they all have that moment where they're like, I feel pretty good. That's some great king shit. That's just fucking rules. It lasts for like 30 seconds. It lasts for a long time.

[02:55:59] But that by the way, that's the elevator. We got the thumbs up. And he logged off. Wrap it up. Smell you later, fart heads. Shut it down, Ben. All right. Thank you to Joe Bowen, Pat Reynolds for our artwork.

[02:56:15] Go to blankies.red.com for some real nerdy shit. Go to patreon.com slash blank check for blank check special features where we're doing the mummy movies. Fred and Frazier arguably comes closer to pulling off the Kurt Russell split in the first mummy that anyone has since.

[02:56:32] Or at least until Chris Pratt tune in next week for Prince of Darkness with Keith Phipps. And as always, I've just sent to the chat if everyone wants to open the link.

[02:56:45] It is a photo from Kate Hudson's annual Halloween party where Zach Brath dressed up as Jack Burton and took a photo with Kurt Russell not wearing a Halloween costume. Ben, shut up. Just keep it in.