[00:00:00] I'm sorry for what happened to you. Well don't be, I'm not fishing for sympathy here. I did the crime, I'm doing the time. Time isn't doing me. I do my own time, not the institutions.
[00:00:30] See to hold on to who you are in there, you dedicate yourself to your podcast. You work out your body and your mind. There should be a whole prequel that's him in prison. Just getting jacked? Yeah, that's like Brawl and Cellblock 99, right?
[00:00:45] That's just him thumping people in prison. I like this movie but the establishment of him in prison, you're just like, this is the movie I want to be watching. What the fuck has this guy been doing?
[00:00:56] Well right, I mean and the prison thing I feel like is mostly there so it's like so that's why he's good at fighting stuff because of prison. He learned all of it in prison, like to tape magazines to himself. But the cell... I love that.
[00:01:13] And it's great but right, I want to see like Black Hat Origins. This is all you need to know about Black Hat. We could almost end the episode here. It is one of the biggest flops of the last 10 years.
[00:01:25] And it is a two plus hour movie about the world's sexiest computer hacker that ends with Thor wrapped up in magazines challenging a man to a screwdriver fight. Challenging like a portly Dutch guy who's not famous. Right.
[00:01:42] Like it's not like it's like him versus insert other marquee idol, he like him and Christian Bale finally meet. The man who up until this point his biggest credit was the rapist and girl with the dragon tattoo. Right.
[00:01:55] And then the other guy is the Chechen from the Dark Knight. Yes. Right. Two final bosses. And he's screwdriver. Screwdriver. Can't get more analog than that. That's true. See, that's this part of my whole take on the movie, the magazines. Oh no, of course. The screwdriver.
[00:02:12] He's going primal. Well, the other thing that you need to mention... And people say print is dead. Right. Print's keeping him alive. The other thing you need to know in your one sentence pitch is print kills.
[00:02:23] Is that oh and also in the original version of the movie a nuclear meltdown happened at the start and it was moved near the end and made no difference. Like, you know, it was fine being moved. Right? You know what I mean?
[00:02:36] Like they almost put it in the wrong place. Okay. Let's get the instructions out of the way because we need to talk about the placement of that piece and the questions it arises in both cuts of the movie. Because this is a podcast called Blank Check. I'm Griffin.
[00:02:49] I'm David. Sim. Newman. Our name is Griffin David Sims. That's right. And... We're beginning to merge into one. You're becoming one creature. Right. This podcast called Blank Check is about filmographies. We're going to be the one friend. Who has a passion for success early on in their career.
[00:03:05] They give a series of blank checks, make whatever crazy passion projects they want. Sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce baby. And this we've hit it. This is the final film. This is it? And who knows? Is this it? That's my question.
[00:03:19] We have a guest who's got... You can talk. I mean has you know, is a real student of this man's work and his career and has spoken to him many times.
[00:03:28] Do you get the sense that this might be the Swan Song or do you feel like he's going to make another one happen? I think he definitely wants to make another one. I mean, I don't... This was not meant to be his... Right.
[00:03:40] He's not making this thinking like I'm going to end on Hemsworth Rapton magazine. And he has set up Salute films since this movie. Right. They've announced, they've cast and then the films have fallen apart. Yeah. Although with him, I get the sense nothing ever really falls apart. Sure.
[00:03:57] It just gets like deep backburnered and who knows? Yeah. And he's always working on different things. And I think he also... I mean, he's been working on this Huey miniseries based on this book about the Vietnam War.
[00:04:13] And last time I talked to him, he had just come back from Vietnam where he was location scouting. I don't know if that means that it's a go project or if he's just location scouting because he's kind of an obsessively busy person.
[00:04:27] Yeah, I imagine he's a guy who does two years of location scouting. Yeah. Yeah. Self-funded. On a movie that never happened. Right. And you guys probably talked about this, but Heat is the perfect example of a movie
[00:04:37] that he worked on for years and then made it and then was like, actually I'm going to do it again. Yeah. I never finished making a movie. Yeah. That's what's crazy about the nuclear meltdown sequence in this movie is that you feel like
[00:04:57] putting it at the beginning was him going like, I don't know. Why not try it? Right. It was a last second idea that then made it the second that they had to strike up the DCPs. Right.
[00:05:08] And then it came out in theaters that way and then he immediately went like, nah, not a good idea. Yeah. Why is that there? Oh yeah. Right. That's the idea of the movie being released to him. That's Michael Mann. Right. It's like that's just the first version. Right.
[00:05:22] Yeah. We're talking about Michael Mann, of course, or Michael Mann's explaining. This main series is called The Castle of the Podheakens. They were talking about Black Hat and our guest is the great Bill Greatbeer. Hello. He's back. He's back, baby, back in Black Hat. That's right. Yeah.
[00:05:39] So let's talk about Tenet people. No, I'm kidding. Just last time you were here we were talking Nolan. We were talking Nolan. We're pretty amped, David and I, about the fact that that movie is titled Tenet. Tenet.
[00:05:50] It's pretty thrilling to see like untitled Warner Brothers event film get replaced on the calendar with Tenet. Or Tenet. Right. Tenet. Tenet. Yes. You're right. That's not usually the type of title you see associated with a July blockbuster in 2020. An untitled event film. Exactly. Right. Godzilla, Tenet.
[00:06:13] Which number of film is that for Nolan? It's not his 10th film, is it? I feel like Dunkirk was ten. Am I wrong about that? Let's count them. I think this is eleven. I mean it's somewhere in that. Yeah. Right? Like. Okay. Following Mento. Mento.
[00:06:31] You're going to count. Yeah, counting. It's eleven. It's eleven. Dunkirk was ten. Great tenth movie. Perfect tenth movie. I mean really kind of like the ultimate. Yeah. Yeah. What is Black Hat for Man? Twelve. Is it that? I think. If we're not counting Jericho Mile, which...
[00:06:49] And I want your opinion on this. A lot of our European listeners have gotten angry. This is his 11th movie. Wow. If you don't count Jericho Mile, if you count Jericho Mile it makes it twelve. It's twelve. Okay. Interesting. If you count LA Takedown that makes it thirteen.
[00:07:03] You know like this is obviously the sort of liminal space. I count Jericho Mile because I love it. Sure. And it feels cinematic to me. Like I would love to see that movie on a big screen. The thing is I don't count the key because it sucks. Interesting.
[00:07:16] Get it out of there. Or lock it up, keep it in there. I mean yes, the argument with Jericho Mile much like with Duel. Yes. Because Spielberg's Duel is right. It did play in theaters not in America but elsewhere. So that kind of makes it a movie, right?
[00:07:28] Right. So a lot of our European listeners are saying you should take it seriously. By this point we will have already released a Patreon episode covering Jericho Mile which is our concession to that.
[00:07:36] But the thing for me is I fall under what was the intent when I was produced. And Jericho Mile was produced as a television film. That's true. It was shot on film and as was tradition back then most American TV films were released in theaters.
[00:07:51] There are a lot of examples of pilots being released in theaters. Sure. You know two-hour pilots being released in theaters. I don't think that makes the Starsky and Hutch pilot a movie. I don't know. Maybe it is. Who directed it? I don't know.
[00:08:04] I think Starsky and Hutch was released as a fucking movie in Europe though. I believe you. If not that, I mean many of those sorts of cop shows and Balsar Galactica was a movie in Europe but it wasn't here. There are things like that.
[00:08:16] No, well that was back in the day when television was a newer thing and you know maybe you have to go see a movie to see a thing. I don't fucking know. This is not an argument I want to have. No. We haven't watched it yet.
[00:08:27] There are like no stakes in that. At the time we were recording we haven't watched it yet. Jericho Mile is the only Michael Mann thing I've never seen. We will have watched it by the time it's coming out. I want to see it. It's really good. I'm excited.
[00:08:37] Dennehy? Is Dennehy in it? I think Dennehy's in it. It's been a while since I've seen it. I think. I know it's out on Blu-ray. I'm thinking of buying the Blu-ray because otherwise you'd watch like a really shitty VHS YouTube. Get the blue. Yep, Dennehy's in there. Yes.
[00:08:52] We've got, and Peter Strauss is the, and then of course Pass and Future Guess Richard Lawson. Is there an actor named Richard Lawson? Yeah, you don't know that guy? He's one of those guys. He's been an African American actor. Oh yes, the director of trolls.
[00:09:07] I don't think I know that guy. He's like six bits deep. You know, he's a... We're inceptioning bits here. He's, yeah, he's just, he's a guy, right? How else would you describe him? He's a that guy. You're like, oh yeah, sure, sure, I know that guy.
[00:09:19] I'm looking him up now. There's a poltergeist. Street's a fire. Good movies. Good movies too. Wow. All right, but anyway, we're not talking about the director. No, we're not. Sorry, we're talking about Richard Lawson's IMDb page. Oh right, we're talking about Black.
[00:09:36] But as you say, I'd love to see him make another movie. Oh yeah. I like this movie a lot. I don't want this to be his last movie. He's only 75. I think he can turn out some more. He can really scot it for a while, right?
[00:09:47] He's an active guy. You know what I mean? He's a serial developer of things and eventually some of them happen and some of them don't. Do you know better than that? Like that's what it always... Like he's someone who, right, he can sit on projects for a while.
[00:10:01] He doesn't make movies quickly usually, although sometimes he has sort of creative flurries. Yeah. But how after six years is this the movie that comes in? That he actually signed Greenlight. This actually happened. There's six years between... Yeah, probably in 2009. This is 15.
[00:10:17] I mean, I guess it was meant for 14 and got sort of shunted to January. Right. But like how is it like you're like, you know what? Yeah, the hacker drama with Thor. Okay, I got a take on this. Well, he produces too. No, I know he produces.
[00:10:29] Of course, right. Why is this the one he settled on? Not that I disapprove exactly. I'm just sort of intrigued that the more prestigious things we've heard him be attached to, don't go like the Ferrari movie or whatever. You know, whatever. There's a more oscar-y sounding thing.
[00:10:44] I think to some degree, this is my conjecture. I think to some degree in a weird way, he was able to disguise this to make it sound like it was a more commercial film because it was modern. You got Thor. You got a big sexy movie star.
[00:10:57] You got China. Chinese. That's the big thing is you have legendary. Legendary is now being acquired by a Chinese company at the time that this movie is going into development. They're the sort of first big production company to really put an emphasis on like we have
[00:11:11] to make films that work in Asian markets. And I think he pitched them a movie that sounded like the math added up. When if you actually look at this movie, of course this movie didn't do well. It's insane it did as poorly as it did. Yeah.
[00:11:23] But of course this movie added a fucking $70 million budget or whatever it is not going to perform at that level. He was also working on it for years. I mean, they shot it all around the world and I mean, I remember this thing being a
[00:11:36] movie on the horizon forever. Yeah. But always I feel like in interviews he would talk about like I'm just very interested in this world. This would be one of those things where he's like, here's a profession. Here's a subculture. Here's a shifting landscape that I'm interested in.
[00:11:51] I'm just doing research and research and research trying to figure out what the story is there. Yeah. And that's I mean, that's I think how he works really. Yes. And I also feel like this film actually kind of fits in this loose trilogy with
[00:12:06] Miami Vice and Public Enemies. I mean there is this kind of look at how surveillance and technology has kind of infiltrated our lives. I mean you could even look at those three movies as I mean the order would
[00:12:19] have to be reversed but it's kind of a progression, right? I mean, it's kind of like a mix of different ways of looking at public enemies and it's about technology and surveillance and how they completely overwhelm this outlaw figure who's trying to get away from both the mob
[00:12:41] and the authorities. Yeah. And meanwhile both sides are like rapidly changing and becoming much more modern. The very nature of crime is shifting around them. And I mean, the only thing that's really interesting about this film is that it's not just about public enemies.
[00:12:57] It's about for sure that's what Miami Vice is about kind of. This feels very of a piece with Miami Vice. Sure. But I mean the thing for me is I'll say I think the context in which this movie plays the worst is the exact context we have created.
[00:13:12] I think if you were watching this at the end of watching 11 Michael Man movies in quick succession, largely in order, the movie plays the most important part of the movie. This is a Michael Man movie. There's a lot going on here.
[00:13:23] I'm comparing this to the other movies in the landscape right now. Yeah. If you're watching it three weeks after you watch like the collateral, right? I don't know how well the movie you might be like a weird huh. This feels sloppier.
[00:13:35] This feels weird and it also is like the whole thing. I think the thing that made everyone write this movie off in the lead up to its release, which is the ridiculous element that people just either can't get past or someone like me.
[00:13:47] I think is what makes the movie interesting is like it's a hacker movie in which Thor plays the hacker and he's also the best fighter in the world and he's super fucking cool. 100%. It's like a crazy Hong Kong movie in that way. Right.
[00:14:01] Like it has that vibe, right? There's an element of it being like a Stallone or like a Schwarzenegger or a cruise movie where it's like the whole movie has to be about how this guy's the best except it's a movie star whose persona is not that.
[00:14:13] He just is this perfect genetic person. His persona is not that set really. Right. Yeah, he hasn't settled into his like I'm kind of funny to think yet. No. Wait, what are you going to say?
[00:14:23] No, I was going to say, I mean except that I remember at the time people said, oh God, you know, this guy, you know, Chris Hemsworth doesn't look anything like a hacker, but I get thinking myself, well, but he could conceivably look
[00:14:34] like somebody who's been in jail for years and has been like working out. Yeah. Right. Here's my other thing. What does a hacker look like? That's right. Like what are they supposed to look like? Get over it. I think we're still kind of married to this like definition
[00:14:46] of a hacker from like 30 years ago, which is why I almost exclusively auditioned to play hackers. So if you threw that prism, you know, I'd be great. But what's ironic is that the movie actually contains that stereotype of villain who is this like sloppy guy
[00:15:05] in a basement somewhere. Right. Like it's just at home all the time. But that's the point is it's like being a hacker is equivalent now to like being a doctor. Like it used to be there was one type of super antisocial indoor neurotic who would be a hacker.
[00:15:23] But now like a hacker could be one of 18 stereotypes. And I think the bigger thing is Michael Mann is obviously obsessed like these guys who are driven to power, feeling some sort of rush, being able to do something well, do something that makes them feel in
[00:15:38] the middle of their own lives, of the universe, of whatever it is. And you go like what he's doing is he's recasting in a way that's actually overdue the idea of a hacker being like a modern thief. Right. And there's so many movies about bank heists and thieves
[00:15:54] that are incredibly handsome attractive buff movie stars. Yeah. When in real life, most thieves probably look like Jim Belushi, you know? They should. Right. And so no one goes like well a real thief wouldn't look like George Clooney. That's impossible. You're of course not. You're right.
[00:16:13] I mean, right because people have seen to catch a thief or whatever. It's one of those movies. The handsome thief. Most people don't look like George Clooney. Right. Exactly. That's right. I always, I'm just usually very opposed to what you're
[00:16:25] talking about the sort of like this movie stars in a movie playing a character. Yeah. He's a movie star. No one looks like him. Yeah. He's a movie star. He should be the star of the movie. That's how the rules work.
[00:16:38] The argument with Hemsworth is there's a little bit for him and some of this is out of his control. Well, Hemsworth is like a tree trunk. That's what I was going to say. And it's also out of his control because he hit the map playing four.
[00:16:48] He hit the map playing eight. So everyone's like impression of him is like oh, this like perfect golden god, like a literal golden god. There's a little bit of the Schwarzenegger thing or the rock thing where when he enters a room you
[00:16:59] want people to be like no one else since it's crazy this guy looks like this. Someone call the media. Even a movie like this where he's relatively toned down, you expect that every scene is interrupted by a guy being like hey I'm a talent agent please take
[00:17:10] my car. You should do commercials or something. Like someone needs to acknowledge. You're wearing the hell out of that under shirt. Right. Right. But I do think we accept these things of like traditionally like unbelievably handsome, charismatic, X factor movie stars can play
[00:17:27] cops and they can play robbers and they can play all these other sort of badass powerful types that Michael Mann is usually obsessed with and the hacker is one that's still stuck in the sort of antiquated stereotype. And he's just like no the movie is about a world
[00:17:42] in which the power shifted. And now the type of guy that I'm interested in as a movie character wouldn't be robbing a bank. The thing he would do is learn how to code. So I'm still going to make a movie about the same kind of guy.
[00:17:54] His skill is just going to be different. He literally made a movie about how bank robbing became an essentially unprofitable activity where it's like that's that scene in public enemies where Frank Kennedy is like I make what you steal in a day. Like, you know, every day.
[00:18:10] What's the point of you anymore? Right. And this is just another classic Michael maker. I mean he even has the like I don't burn people line which is almost exactly the same line that Al Pacino says in the insider. Like I don't burn people. Right.
[00:18:24] It's like these guys of principle who also are kind of scoundrels. Right. We're pissing everyone off. We're trying to be the. I mean that's a thing you go like in 1987 probably would have been. Sounds good. Yeah. But that's also a concession too in
[00:18:40] 2015 2014 whatever if he wants to make this movie he needs to cast a superhero. I know that's the only way he's going to get his financing. This is also one of the only movie with none of his guys in it. John Ortiz. John Ortiz is the one exception right.
[00:18:53] Yeah. But you're kind of like you're sort of looking for those manfellows those faces. Bruce McGill. Yeah. And I hope McElhaney should be in it. Yeah. Absolutely. Like if there are more Michael Man movies you know he's right. There's a new ensemble at his fingertips here.
[00:19:08] By all of Davis turns out to be a perfect Michael Man company. By all of David I mean then she made Widows which is basically like you know Michael Man Spirit movie right like. So this is a question for you. She's so suited to it.
[00:19:18] For you right off the bat. Bill. I saw the theatrical when it came out on theaters. I saw the director's cut which is now streaming on FX. Yeah. And it's on the FX and on the app. But it says like this version has been modified.
[00:19:32] No but that's just airplane language. No I have also read that the director's cut when he played it a bam was two hours 16. And this cut came in at like two nine. So I feel like this definitely was the cut where it's rearranged where the power
[00:19:50] plant happens halfway through or whatever. Right. It was that sequencing but I was trying to figure out if scenes were missing or not and there was a scene I was waiting for the whole movie that didn't happen and I now try to figure out did
[00:20:01] I create the scene in my mind which is very possible or did I watch a cut of this movie that doesn't have the scene in it. I remember there being a scene where Viola Davis tells Chris Hemsworth a story about her husband. No she offhandedly mentioned it.
[00:20:23] Right there's that scene where she mentions it. She mentions the whole McLeany when he goes who did you lose and she says my husband. There's a scene with John Ortiz where she invokes 9-11 and she says I lost people you don't get to tell me. Yeah.
[00:20:35] What does she say to Hemsworth? I just maybe in my head blew it up to be a bigger mind. I don't remember her saying anything to Hemsworth. Right. Those are the two mentions. She says it on the phone to John Ortiz. Yeah. Right and they hear it. Right.
[00:20:49] And then Hulk McLeany asked her about it. And in fact the first time I saw the film I missed that. Yeah. That initial mention of it to John Ortiz so that later on it seemed to come out of the blue which I actually thought was kind of interesting.
[00:21:02] I thought it was kind of cool where he's like I know who you are. Like I know what kind of a public servant you are. Yeah. I just I think I created the scene in my head because I even the mental image was outside of the airport
[00:21:14] where the car gets bombed where Viola Davis gets killed. I remember the two of them standing outside there and her talking about her husband. Not like some big emotional confessional way. I don't remember the scene. I remember that as being like oh that's Viola's Oscar scene.
[00:21:29] I invented it. Yeah. Sergei Eisenstein is like applauding in his grave right now like this is this is like theory of montage. Right. Just like personified. Right. Because she's not even in that location at the point when that scene would happen. You're just like you know
[00:21:44] what I'm sure Viola would rock that scene. That's I think honestly I was like right. Yeah. But no that's not really blackhead style anyway. No. Blackhead style is more off hand kind of like yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So my assumption is the reason they move the power
[00:22:00] plant up to the cold open of the movie is because at some point the studios went wait a second the first act of this movie is just about soy futures. Right. It must have been that they thought it was too slow a bill right.
[00:22:12] Like we got to get some stakes instant stakes here and it can't just be the soy futures are expensive. They probably wanted to pop and I don't know that it would have been. Maybe they did too. Yeah I think man probably thought that way too.
[00:22:24] I will say as much as I love this movie and I've watched it you know I've watched both versions many times the one thing that I do think I do think that maybe there need there needed to be one more hack like because because
[00:22:37] sure because in the director's the director's cut works much better but it is kind of like this this like soy futures hack or Chicago and Mercantile Exchange hack and then like all hell breaks loose and they're pulling people out of prison to like help them
[00:22:53] and it feels like something more urgent needs to happen for this whole you know half a way business to really work. Desperate measures call for desperate action offer him whatever he wants. Literally the only guy in the world who can help us solve
[00:23:06] this is like in prison and we need to get him out and we don't have any time like right so it makes sense for there to be like a like a reactor explosion or something. I do think that's like a weird example of the like
[00:23:17] speaking of like eyes and signing and creating weird meaning through like edits and drugs positions of things. I think that theatrical version has more urgency to it because it starts with a cast graphic event even if the placement of that event doesn't make any sense you kind of
[00:23:32] accept it as like an underlying tension to every scene that then weirdly isn't referenced until halfway through the movie. Well and it's well yeah like weirdly like they after all this other shit happens they finally go to the site and it's like cuts to
[00:23:48] like the exact same shot of these guys running it's like literally 10 seconds later in the theater being like this is clearly what happened like before the story had even leaked out of like oh he reassembled the chronology. It was just like clearly this was not supposed to happen
[00:24:02] as early in the movie. But the other thing that happens is yes there is some urgency at the beginning when you put the reactor at the but then the story kind of deescalates yeah that's the whole problem which is interesting like because it
[00:24:14] I mean it goes from I mean it starts with a like a nuclear reactor and then it goes to you know soy future and finally it's like he's cornering the market on tin yeah that's what I mean it's right that's the Michael Manny though I love
[00:24:32] it where he's like you don't understand soy is everything yeah right oh yeah my family like that in the director's cut that scene which is not in theatrical but of the ship trying to yes yeah weird scene of the part of it right great
[00:24:48] scene but like the most Michael man thing you can imagine because it's like you know the ship can't dock not because there's anything wrong with the ship insurance right it's like their cargo's value has increased so they don't have the requisite amount of insurance to do it's
[00:25:07] like that is the most Michael man thing you can imagine and also that's you see in that scene in a nutshell why Michael man wanted to make a movie about cybercrime because it's like so weird that someone can do something on a remote laptop in two seconds that
[00:25:21] jeopardizes a boat currently in motion you know that like immediately the ripple effect of that right well disconnected is so strong that a boat just stops but right and I like all that and that notion that like our relationship with China is so fraught in the cyber security
[00:25:40] sector but so important in the trade sector yeah and like that it's all getting flipped around but yeah that's some that's some dad reading an economist article you know level of tension and then they stomped the boat right like I don't see like universal exacts being like hold
[00:25:57] up a second the insurance oh my this is we got to rush this production yeah like as you say it doesn't feel to me like it's a studio mandated thing I would assume believe that man came to that decision itself because
[00:26:08] it's like oh fuck I want to be more exciting yeah yeah but it does feel like a kind of panic thing of like can you have the movie start with something that feels this much out of the Wall Street Journal yeah you know at this budget level so
[00:26:22] this action it's like you know I kind of want my ideal hybrid version of this movie to be like there's the reactor explosion at the beginning and then it happens again I don't know what the escalation of that is but that's exactly then he fires a
[00:26:37] nuke I don't know well that's a cool hacker thing to do that's this other thing I think he's exploring in this is like so I understand now the people who know how to work at computers are more powerful than any people have ever been right the
[00:26:50] amount you can connect everything to computers the more we empower if you speak that language those who are the most fluent have a greater capacity to affect the entire world in a moment than anyone ever especially if they're black hats which are like
[00:27:02] hackers who are like I just want to soak chaos and like right be bad right but his thing is like how do I make this visually exciting like how do I make an action film out of a thing that in terms of the physical action is
[00:27:15] pretty fucking boring and I think he's experimenting so much with like how do you construct the story around it so that it has consequence how do you make the you know foot chases around the hackings you know ticking clocks on the hacking and
[00:27:29] then also all the weird shit he's doing with like how am I gonna shoot this yeah let's let's have and all this moving yeah wires yeah and the whole thing feels to me like a visual exercise because I mean every other shot in the
[00:27:42] film has some sort of grid in it even if like I mean even if it's not a grid it's like everything is patterned in that way yeah and even the way half the way moves through space is like early on in the prison you see him through
[00:27:54] the bars as they're carrying him but then like that echoes later when the scene with the in Indonesia in the parade where he's like slowly making his way towards towards these lines of yeah I mean it's like finally he's like he finally has some agency
[00:28:11] and he's able to move through this world finally you know right and Michael Mansa city guy he's ghost man he's ghost man yeah he's ghost manning around Michael Mansa city guy right and obviously one of his most recurring he loves his nighttime cityscape
[00:28:29] seeing the grid of a city in the lights at a distance where you can't see the individual people or the cars but you understand the way the city is bustling when I saw this in theaters and the first time it goes inside the computer I was
[00:28:41] like oh fuck is he messing this up like is he like trying to be like computers are exciting because there's so many like swordfish-esque movies in which they like speed ramp through the circuit board yeah and you're like okay this is too performative
[00:28:54] but the thing he does is he stays in these things for a long time and they the longer you're inside a computer you're looking at a circuit board you're looking at the wires you're looking at the literal internet or whatever he's sort of showing
[00:29:07] you the more cold and desolate it becomes and the more you start paying attention to the weird patterns and grids and all that sort of stuff and it's like for him it's just another city yeah you know 100% absolutely and it's like if he did one really fast 15
[00:29:20] second thing I'd be like role-wise trying to show us the internet he gets the internet series of tubes right but when it lasts for like 85 seconds yeah you're like this scares him oh yeah and then there's a there's one moment where it like the action
[00:29:34] of like what's happening on the it like slows down and there's like almost like I can't remember if it's like almost a close-up on a on one of the other one of the lights in the corner as if like we're supposed to know what that
[00:29:44] means he likes the dramatic flashing oh yeah yeah yeah right like oh I see like this is all the take that is crazy right that it's like it's crazy single light going off like a microscopic light in a box get rid of it right can
[00:30:00] like destroy everything in a moment because he's this is about like this there was a real program that like disrupted the Iranian nuclear program so incredibly even though it was secret I think yeah like that's what he's initially inspired by that like there were these cyber attacks that
[00:30:17] basically just like shut down whole reactor that we didn't even know about sure because unlike attacks of physical violence which end up on the news it's mostly just silent what the right fucking how like you know it's just that it's us calling Verizon and being
[00:30:33] like I can't I can't watch succession on HBO and the amount of time in the first chunk of this movie that is devoted to Christian Borel right who is like when a Broadway is best like musical comedy actors absolutely playing like a guy at an office who's
[00:30:48] like I didn't let anyone use my computer why is everyone on my case and they're like are you sure I'm sure well except for that one guy but that's the thing it feels so like that couldn't actually cause anything bad to happen this is a movie
[00:31:04] where like a phishing attack is like a pivotal second act action sequence right but William Mopadar succumbed to a phishing attack yeah what else there's another thing well right and then the the USB right I the telltale USB yeah hotel lobby yeah any of those things
[00:31:22] it's like but like there's movies like entrapment that are the same fucking thing but they suck right I like you're right there's a it's very hard to make this feel like it has any state well he's not interested in the things that make
[00:31:38] like those movies try to make this stuff sexy by I was exactly actually sexing it up always default to like what if someone had sex basically like while this was happening yeah like that's the swordfish move that's the entrapment move right can we like literally
[00:31:52] just have naked bodies like right there is that a way to make this spicier right and and but in man's case it's like no no I'm gonna make it sexy by just like showing you how a circuit board is like a cityscape at night which like
[00:32:08] which like the man fans like us are like oh my god oh my god that is totally sexy in the regal court street that I saw this oh it's empty oh no it's here right no and then the guy is sexy
[00:32:19] and the lady is sexy and they have sexy sex sure once they finish hacking with their computers that classic man sex though where you're sort of like squinting at the fray for a second you're like is this one body or two okay
[00:32:33] oh I see you know like he doesn't you know he doesn't click her boobs there isn't a scene where she's getting off on how well he hacks his house and cyber crime movies we're talking about where it's like the woman starts to like get off when
[00:32:47] the guy is coding really fast oh yeah you know and they're like this guy doesn't code like other people he's like a rebel coder absolutely you know trying to this isn't your granddaddy's computer right and this movie is just like no they're like professional and
[00:33:01] it's like you know that Hugh Jackman isn't your granddaddy's computer coder because he lives in an airstream trailer and plays golf off the roof remember it's truly bad but it's one of those movies where you watch and you're like this has a little more deeper
[00:33:15] roots in the culture than I thought it would at the time you know what I mean there's a lot of movies like this oh yeah and obviously it's a derivative movie itself but it is insane Dominic Senna is that a Dominic Senna yeah what's he up to now
[00:33:29] I think he did season of the witch do you know my beloved season of the witch Bill good have you it is a good movie I like season of the witch thank you I bring it up all the time people think I was
[00:33:39] his last one reclaiming as a trash masterpiece I think that's actually a really good fun you know I really enjoyed it he has a musical great in that movie yeah absolutely her breakup but best performance his five movies the titular wish I've already spoiled the twist
[00:33:55] on this part that she is Satan right I think that such a brilliant twist is like the whole movie is like is she a witch or not do witches exist and like no the witch thing was like an archie Satan witches he we wish she was a witch
[00:34:09] he made California gone in 60 seconds swordfish whiteout season of the witch it's five and out for Dominic Remind me how you spell California oh with a K oh very cool at least it's not with a backwards K yeah that would be the doubling you know yes right
[00:34:23] hat on the hat when the trailer goes like so you know it's extra twisted yeah no but I think there I view this movie the weird movie I view this as a sister piece to is you know you have cops sure another fine film yep my favorite of
[00:34:43] the three Malik sort of no question personal yeah plot light sort of what what is it to be a person right and both cases describe I would describe people call them the twirly movies or whatever but I don't know what the word the twirly's are good I think
[00:34:59] Bill is making her face he doesn't know I wouldn't call him the twirly movies twirling that's all there's twirling in the other movies there is I know he's twirl heavy twirling's alright how but how would you whatever those three movies you know I
[00:35:11] always want to call them the autobiography they're all about some part of his life like Tree of Life is also autobiography so yeah Tree of Life is the sort of technology right it's sort of like one foot in each world see my thing is I what
[00:35:25] I view those three films as are I'm gonna make three movies trying to explain and explore why I didn't make a movie for 20 years right yeah like the whole mythology of Terrence Malick that was like why did he disappear all these contrasting stories
[00:35:41] do you have a total mental breakdown was he like above the industry was he below the industry like all three of those movies are like I mean to the wonder is the relationship that he had during those wilderness years and Night of Cups is like how
[00:35:55] he felt like a fucking phony sure when he was at his the peak of his success it's his Barton Fink right and then song to song is like his like the industry is evil movie right and also I think I think song to song is
[00:36:09] is also about how Austin has changed right yeah which I don't know much about I don't this is actually something I've heard from other people who are like actually that film for people in Austin who I guess are you know in tune with Malick
[00:36:21] movies that film actually has a lot of you know very personal resonance apparently they're interesting movies I think night I agree and I think nice cups was the one that people laughed off the most because they were like this feels like self parody well also
[00:36:35] like Dan Harmon's and I think people were just baffled by it is the one with least narrative correct yes not pretty much no narrative right yeah but it's real broken into the relationships yes and the key to the movie is all the weird like why is Joe
[00:36:51] LaTrulyo in this why is Dan Harmon in this why are there so many comedy writers and sketch performers and apparently he like encouraged them to do long improv riffs on set explicitly trying to be funny right I made this comment on the podcast and someone who had
[00:37:05] worked on that movie said like you're totally right when we were filming it when we were filming when it was being filmed I was working on the movie he very much was describing this to people as a comedy right it's like how can a guy who's
[00:37:17] this successful is literally having like a guy come up to him with an envelope of two million dollars and be like it's a shitty script just do a rewrite two days right and then goes like nature how you burn inside of
[00:37:29] me you know like what what the fuck is this thing can't help himself in the same way where it's like why is Thor playing a computer hacker who still acts like a Michael Mann character like is the self parody but I think both are in addition
[00:37:41] to you know whatever the personal things are for them like I think this movie is Michael Mann trying to figure out how much the world that he's been interested in his entire career has morphed you know I think part of it is also that he's trying to
[00:37:55] like the movie itself is I think struggling to find a kind of language to describe what's happening yeah on screen right I mean like is for example there you know there'll be a couple of scenes where somebody just like hits a button very casually and something horrible
[00:38:13] happens but then there'll be other scenes where you know there'll be like a close up of a computer button and it's like the sound is like a gunshot and it's like is this thing really is the important thing here that it's really significant
[00:38:25] or the important thing here that it's totally insignificant and it's like the movie actually keeps like changing in that way so you get the sense that like everything is constantly in flux visually even sonically in the film and I think that actually reflects kind of the whole idea
[00:38:43] of cyber crime and living in this world where technology rules everything right and it that these crimson field victimless or like you maybe have no concept human concept of the chaos you're reeking public enemies has that too I mean like the very form of the movie
[00:39:01] changes as it progresses like it starts off looking kind of very filmy and by the end it's very video-y but like the whole movie is about like the encroachment of technology so like the form of the film actually bears out
[00:39:13] the themes of the film which I think is fascinating but the film also boils down to him having a face-to-face meeting with a guy using entirely rudimentary objects in the middle of an ancient like traditional ceremony and the guy even says something
[00:39:31] actually says like he has a line it's like no codes, no keyboards no screen but there's a line where he's suddenly yelling a manifesto in the middle of this festival or they're about to stab each other and no ones in zero no ones in zero is right
[00:39:45] and then the other guy says something like I have other people do sub-symbolic stuff for me which like that is also such a like only Michael Mann would ever have the villain in like the climactic scene use the expression sub-symbolic like whatever the fuck that means
[00:40:01] yeah it's a fair point meaning like human interaction I think is what he means I don't know also the villain doesn't show up basically until the last 20 minutes of the movie like you'll cut to him sort of just like you know shambling around and like hitting
[00:40:15] some buttons in a basement but they're both just kind of chaos people right I mean they're both people who are kind of addicted to how much power they can now hold because of their mastery of this technology
[00:40:25] right I mean there is this thing that we're sort of talking around which is that like I feel like technology has advanced faster than our understanding of how it has changed storytelling has been able to sort of like I don't know crystallize if that makes sense
[00:40:45] yeah like just the amount of this is like a hacky fucking thing but everyone says this all the time we watch movies from 15-20 years ago and you're like this plot wouldn't exist if this character had a cell phone
[00:40:59] there's so many films like that where it's just like if this technology existed, if they had access to this they were able to locate this person you know like After Hours is a movie that doesn't exist and even if the plot is his cell phone
[00:41:11] falls out the window along with his wallet it's still easier for him to sort of recobble what he needs to get home yeah of course he can just like log into some shit right there are just like a ton of things he could do yeah and it also
[00:41:27] I think it's a bigger thing is how it's affected visual storytelling I think it's fucked with film and TV more than anything because these powerful movements aren't exciting looking you know someone having a fight with their girlfriend over text is not very cinematic it doesn't work on stage
[00:41:47] it doesn't work on screen you can write it as a book in text even that's kind of boring it makes me think of the twitter joke I feel like I've seen a few people say this where it's like they are texting or writing
[00:42:01] and I'm screaming and literally in that moment they're sitting there with a blank stare on their face right I don't actually laugh out loud guys what? I'm not laughing my ass off I thought he was giggling his butt off I thought he was slapping slapping his
[00:42:21] hoping for at least a couple chucks if I stop thinking about you if I stop thinking about anything it disappears is the line up I think the thing though that technology has made us somewhat sociopathic and how divorced our emotions are from what we're actually doing because they're
[00:42:42] disconnected because they're remote and satellite and all that sort of shit and the nature of storytelling is show don't tell and the nature of technology is a lot of telling things I mean even like coding and hacking is like typing commands into a computer being like do this
[00:42:58] which the soy futures thing manifests as just a guy being like boats done but you understand why they're like we only have one explosion in the movie in this way you know and it's a realistic explosion too you don't see a power plant go kaboom
[00:43:12] you see it melt down and one part of it explodes it's very realistic but then when they blow up a car you're like this is weird that these hackers are just like blowing up you know what I'm saying? they're showing up in a place with a bazooka
[00:43:28] but this is also such a Michael man thing where like there's this whole section of the movie where they you know the bad guy gets on a boat on a motorboat goes out to a ship gets the bazooka goes back to shore just
[00:43:42] so we can later have the scene where he blows up this car and I mean I guess that would make sense also because otherwise we'd be like how the hell did this guy suddenly get a bazooka but it's such a weird little
[00:43:52] thing like he has to explain how he gets this thing it's a scene that when you're watching the movie for the first time you're like there's no way I'm going to retain this I'm sorry I don't know what's going on you're already throwing weights and much happening
[00:44:02] black hat but yeah but then there is a cool bazooka scene Holt McElaney gets shot so hard that he sort of like flies like a rag doll which you know that they researched I mean I'm sure they did because like he's very particular about making sure that like
[00:44:18] when someone gets shot they get shot the way that it would happen in my life here's a question I have is Chris Hemsworth doing Michael man is that the voice he's doing on my third rewatch having now I've been listening to a bunch of commentaries too
[00:44:32] like he's doing a Chicago guy yeah yeah well he's from the character is supposed to be from Chicago which is hilarious it is like where they're like it's the Chicago and you're like okay and a lot of lead actors are playing their directors
[00:44:48] that's a big thing when you spend if you're the lead actor spending a lot of time with the director and you're trying to piece it together and the director is the one who's explaining this is what I think the story is about this is the one
[00:44:58] I feel like people ragged on Hemsworth accent I think it's very good I think it's fine I think he's good I think he's good in the movie too I think they're misplacing what is jarring about him being in the film
[00:45:10] it's not his accent it's that he's Chris Hemsworth it's that he doesn't seem like a human being ever you know he's better than us it is fun I mean Michael man is such a movie star guy like he really relies on those guys to like sell
[00:45:22] all the things we've been talking about in a like commercial and fun way and also to get his movies made and to get his movies made of course that's his greatest superpowers these guys want to be in his movies and Hemsworth is a movie
[00:45:34] star yeah like there's no I'm not disputing that but especially at this time because I think the movie Dick movie is maybe this year comes in between the two Ron Howard's I want to say yeah he's great in rush
[00:45:46] in the heart of the sea is a bit of a nothing in the heart of the sea comes after this right right I think you're right but it's kind of delayed there were both much delayed and it was that so
[00:45:56] and I think in it certainly it's like pre Ragnarok like it's pre Thor being fun right I think Thor is fun to be quick but same here perception of course right and so I think there was that atmosphere especially like in among like
[00:46:10] deadline type writers of like Chris Hemsworth can he open a movie like and also people care about it's when he wasn't really cool like he was exactly cool like he's very cool now there was a resentment towards him as if he were like a Sam Worthing Tim where
[00:46:24] it's like are they forcing us to view this guy as a movie star exactly like do you deserve to be in the Michael Mann movie yet Chris except for but like don't tell us we have to buy Hemsworth and it was
[00:46:34] that weird thing of like you know he's done a couple tiny things then he gets Thor right yeah and it's like a big deal that he's like the only like totally unknown actor to get one of these movies yeah and
[00:46:44] that everyone else who had been in the running for Thor was someone of some some sort of recognition right but so it was like a big announcement of like Marvel's betting big on this guy who just got off the plane right and then he does his kind of
[00:46:58] like Hard to See Rush Black Hat it feels like him doing a classic like I want to show that I really want to be a serious movie star and I want to be able to do like the Decaprio Damon thing where I like go to real serious
[00:47:12] directors and make adult films that can only get financed because I'm putting my name on them right and the problem is that all of those films underperform well because because that age is over it's done that's the thing it's like Tom Cruise pulled
[00:47:24] that off back in the day and kind of established the model yes now those kinds of films I mean even they might get made occasionally but they don't do well I say Bradley Cooper's the closest to being able to pull
[00:47:34] that off in that sort of way there are the guys who are still running off of that like Decaprio which is just because it had a really good track record 20 years of maintaining a source standard quality hit some of those people who are able to do that
[00:47:46] but most of those guys spend especially now spend a lot longer going through the motions of building up your international numbers before you then start flexing the muscle and it's like he extended his movie star status too wide too early and then I feel like it's so telling
[00:48:04] that now he's just like just a franchise guy you know it's so much a franchise guy well you're forgetting 12 strong I were 12 strong you know what you are very correct I completely forgot the 12 strong untold story of the horse soldiers existed that's correct came out
[00:48:22] last year yeah it premiered at jazzyt Lincoln Center I forgot that did you forget that premiered at jazzyt Lincoln Center we really remembered that I remember the evening I just couldn't remember what was on this screen you were there of course
[00:48:34] I was there every night you're there at jazz at Lincoln Center I'm hoping Damon Waynes is going to get off and then you know because yeah his 2018 was 12 strong 12 strong infinity war and bad times of the El Royale right which was sort of him
[00:48:48] doing a favor to his buddy Drew Goddard right this year he's got N gang men in black international which looks like a piece of shit but who knows who knows I don't know at this point it probably has already won best picture
[00:49:02] that's right it has come out theaters and they had just gone forget the rest of the year it's the new green book it just I know men in black is a completely sort of forgotten franchise that is like that you and I love
[00:49:14] that a lot of our friendship is based earlier do you not love men in black I said that the first one was a masterpiece and bill go was like Barry Sonnenfeld is never yeah yeah just like the words masterpiece and men in black should never ever ever
[00:49:28] he's directed for stonefall masterpiece wait what even I'm struggling is happening right now I would say there are at least three not a master okay so I'll say three okay values get shorty oh yeah get shorty's good I would not call that a master I love get great
[00:49:44] great movie I think and nine lives I think three stars is his is his ceiling you think he's a three star general I think he is a three star ceiling guy well I think I mean as I've said like the story of Sonnenfeld is crazy
[00:49:59] where he basically is a incredibly reliable like fun 90s movie director he makes Wild Wild West and like I guess Satan just came for whatever part like that was it he claimed his soul with that day because he's never made anything remotely good since look
[00:50:15] man in black is one of those objects that I'm obsessed with as you are and I feel like it holds a lot of the same power as like Ghostbusters where it's like when you've seen the 10 years at 20 years of movies following it failing to replicate that you go
[00:50:29] like how did everything go right on this movie and so it's one of those movies where anytime I have any opportunity to talk to anyone who is involved in that first movie I pump from for stories and I always try to get
[00:50:39] the sense of like what happened to Sonnenfeld and everyone's answer is like I don't know he just stopped being good like there was no thing you know and it kind of falls into like I mean Rob Reiner this helps sure that's another one where it's like
[00:50:53] there's almost just a line you draw and you're like before pretty good mostly after I mean Rob Reiner has one of the great track records in cinema history and then it just falls off a clip. But it's one of those things where
[00:51:07] he's like a surefire hit before and a surefire worse movie the year after that's how good it is like that's how consistent he is in both directions right but he's major like he's making major moves he's not releasing four movies in the last year starring Woody
[00:51:21] Harrelson that no one knows about he's done like four what he is in a movie about like a New York Times article he writes like he keeps doing that where he's like can you believe it like someone links to something on Facebook and then he immediately like
[00:51:35] he's got that Castle Rock money he's got that Castle Rock money no but some of those guys it's weird because it's not like they're like idiots of violence but it's like there's a period of time where they're just in the pocket every instinct they have
[00:51:47] is correct and then they're not in the pocket anymore and they're still operating solely off of instinct and their instincts are wrong but I think it's also they're not getting the script used to I mean that's part of it's that with
[00:51:59] those guys I mean with a guy like man it's obviously different because he you know generally initiates the scripts or he's not the credited writer on this one I don't know the guy but I assume man had a lot of I think so I mean the guy
[00:52:11] credited on it actually was like you know but he worked on queer or something like that yeah he was like an assistant editor on click wow and rescue me this is his only script yeah and he's he's a pretty young writer right it's four years old
[00:52:27] do something else was there something else that he did kind of looks like Griffin Newman like you know I could play him but I gather that he and man kind of work together I'm not sure I don't make I think
[00:52:39] I read like an interview with him or something like that where you know like I think man kind of guided it although the script might have existed beforehand I'm not sure right because there's I mean I think of and there are I think they're obviously pals
[00:52:51] but like the Ridley Scott method of screenwriting where he like yells at you in a room while smoking a cigar about everything that's going to happen in the movie he just doesn't have the time to actually write it he's just like and then the
[00:53:03] prim the aliens gonna you know like he just sort of talks like that for a while you hire someone to write the movie so that you can sit back rewrite it but man was a man started off as a writer yeah man is
[00:53:13] more of a real right writing is kind of in his DNA in that sense I feel like I mean we were talking about that right when was it when the keep came out there's that old interview you were talking about where he's like
[00:53:23] I have this script called heat yeah I can't direct it but I'd love someone he's like I think it's the best script I've ever written I don't think I could ever pull it off even think of himself as like worthy of trying that shit right yeah
[00:53:35] you've met Michael man I have talk about we go to build a nose Michael man friends my buddy Michael man you some are with Michael man that's fucking beach Michael man does not summer I don't burn people I get sunburnt I'm trying to imagine like Michael
[00:53:54] man relaxing and I'm struck kids yeah his daughters are filmmakers well I mean he's got Amy came in man yeah like made a movie and was like a second unit on heat yeah and I think he has another daughter is another I
[00:54:10] think so let me see let me see it's also about hanging out with kids according to Wikipedia how's he dress then his fashion focus blackjackets I don't know you know I've I've met Michael man in person like three times you know pretty nice guy sure not
[00:54:29] nearly as intense as you might imagine I would imagine fairly intense but also graph but also I was not on a movie set with him and I imagine it's a lot carrier there right right right but you know he's
[00:54:41] can be a can be you know he's not a chatty guy but sure but he's he you know he has like he has a lot of answers that he gives over and over again to questions but they're good answers like he's got his answers down right
[00:54:55] now so he actually like he thinks about his answers their thoughtful answers and he's got kind of got him down and then like if you ask him the same question he will give you the same answer it's like you know like clockwork yeah it's preloaded
[00:55:09] he's wait it's gone whatever my question was it's completely gone he has his answers he's a haga guy his dad was a grosser the bears oh yeah ball did you ever get an explanation from him as to why beautiful by Alejandro is one of his
[00:55:26] top ten movies of all time and is that still the case on a list of nine of there's nine other movies one of which is avatar which we accept but a good case well he's I mean he's friends with
[00:55:37] in your E2 and you know and you know I mean he loves his work he's also a fan of the red friends of with in your E2 right I picked the revenant before beautiful like I feel beautiful is kind of the weird for a rather than that
[00:55:48] list is a sighting sound less than more as peros yeah you're right it's a sighting sound less it was pre revenant yeah I mean so I think beautiful was probably like just the most recent one if I were Michael man I would make all of my sighting
[00:56:03] sound like the little paragraphs I write be like just friends with Alejandro like I just brag about all the friends I have yeah like I just pick movies where I could be like friends with you know Quentin Tarantino we get eggs like we
[00:56:15] go to a diner yeah I don't know we'll just want to do it Quentin Tarantino sit around playing old board games yeah I think that is literally what one does really really is Quentin Tarantino like a big settlers of Catan guy no no I think it's like
[00:56:28] vintage board game wasn't that the whole thing like I remember at the during the press blitz for for a pulp fiction like you know all these stories were like you know the actors he wanted I think maybe Travolta oh yeah they Travolta and he played
[00:56:43] like the eight is enough board game and that was how they bonded it's like kitsch of course of course it's very Quentin Tarantino yeah right he's not like a serious like cardboard guy he just likes anything that's like a weird object of Hollywood marginalia
[00:56:59] and I mean he succeeded in like turning those things into fetish objects for the rest of us right totally right I mean like that's his whole man Hong Kong movies you know blackploitation movies kung fu movies these were not things these were not considered cool at the
[00:57:13] time like pre Tarantino he somehow managed to make them cool like some of us watch that stuff spaghetti westerns whatever but like most people if you said the word spaghetti western would not know what that was pre pulp fiction and afterwards
[00:57:27] well but then that's sort of the thing with man too which we've talked about where it's like he wasn't cool even though he made all these cool things and then they all his movies become cool later through TV airings over and over again and then the directors
[00:57:41] he inspires right this is and then this movie fell into the exact same trap where people came out and it came out and people were like it's kind of bad like right and then like it only took a few years for everyone to be like was black
[00:57:51] kind of great you know like it only I feel like it took weeks for it to just in the second exit theater I was like wait I haven't seen play yeah where did it go like isn't it a masterpiece it this is the thing that I always
[00:58:03] found really baffling about man because I remember I like these movies would come out and I would go to them and come out and I'd say alright that that was good sure but that's going to date really poorly uh-huh like I remember
[00:58:15] because you know his stuff is so kind of weirdly like contemporary in that sense like the music is very of the moment it's like can we capture this exact moment exactly and you get it with yeah utmost accuracy right and you think to yourself well in two years
[00:58:31] this is going to look idiotic yeah right and what's amazing is that like that does not happen yeah things actually if anything they get cool yeah yeah a hundred percent it's almost like they kind of wind up defining what's cool yeah like that the thing when Pacino's
[00:58:47] in heat I feel like some people at the time are like here it is definitive evidence this guy is so fucking off the rails like sense of a woman was enough and now he's just screaming at us exactly like
[00:58:59] yeah remember what a great actor he used to be and now people are like Pacino in heats like the best American whoever right like they're just like I love him what are you talking about yeah or like you watch heat and you're like all this like self important
[00:59:13] weirdly Dickensian stuff getting into people's lives who needs that just give us the crime thriller you know cut to 10 20 years later everybody's trying to make a crime movie that's like that rich and that deep but you know what's weird like so you saying
[00:59:27] you know in the way that Tarantino made all these things like generally cool for everybody this is now accepted as cool with the Miami Vice TV show Michael Mantoli did that where you read about all these trends that were created like Italian suits were not popular
[00:59:43] in the states Italian clothing lines were not popular with men's right those colors I mean all these sorts of things the music he was using the colors he was you all this sort of shit and that show just like hits like a fucking atom bomb and changes everything
[00:59:57] everyone's like this is the definition of cool we have to tune in to follow the trends you know the show just becomes like fucking American bandstand or whatever right for like trendspotting and then in his movies it always is like he's 10 years ahead
[01:00:11] of getting the credit for doing the thing oh yeah I mean in fact I remember when Miami Vice first aired it was not like that well like the show I remember the reviews were pretty negative critics were I think kind of like this is also like MTV
[01:00:25] that was actually that was a pitch MTV cup but then also the I don't remember the ratings being that good in fact it was kind of it was kind of borderline for a while and I remember after the first it caught on it some way either the
[01:00:39] first season or the second season it actually caught on and you know they renewed it and suddenly it was a hit again of course I think I think man actually left after the second season I think you're right I mean Miami Vice is one
[01:00:49] of those things where you figure it dominated the 80s but it was actually it was only five seasons it kind of wore out its welcome really quickly right yeah like you know the Emmys turned on it right away you know what I mean
[01:01:01] like all of it's it was sort of like I mean there are so many phenomenon like like like the OC where it's like the OC lands and it was never the number one show on television and it was OC is great
[01:01:13] right that was such a flash in the pan but has lingered quite it was fine it was dead by year five and like you know it only had four years four seasons and the fourth season felt like it was on life support already the fourth season was basically
[01:01:25] announced as the final season of the OC like yeah and people like me who were kind of too old for it when it went we were like what the fuck is this like why would anybody watch this shit this garbage right this is it culture
[01:01:39] circling the drain that's it yeah the OC is like our tourist master exactly exactly but it did like it set the trends like it redefined fashion and redefined music all these things it's a pretty fascinating sort of like those shows that are so tied into
[01:01:55] the moment yes it's weirdly I think easier to make a show that is so tied into the moment that works in that moment than it is with a film yeah you know these sort of like flash in the pan like you caught wind of a cultural sort
[01:02:09] of movement right sort of shows I was just I mean just like you know we talked about a lot I'm so fascinated by just like how fucking long careers are most people just have so many different acts to their career do you remember when like
[01:02:23] oh Olivia Wilde is playing the bisexual bartender and four episodes of the OC and her being like but when they announced like oh she's got a run it was like here's the next big star yeah like to have a guest or it's a big deal
[01:02:37] they were just guest stars in the OC with like vogue photo shoots right and they were like this is going to be your next leading lady yeah and then it was like oh I guess that didn't happen and then she comes back on house well Olivia
[01:02:47] Wilde is one of the bigger breakouts of the OC right and the OC is littered with people who like never got to escape the gravity like she didn't have the OC yeah I thought she was gonna have and then had the career Chris Pratt was in the OC
[01:02:59] like there's a lot of guest stars of the OC yeah OC Miami Vice is similar I mean for the I mean Jimmy Smith well I mean the guest stars were insane but some of them were also you know big at the time yeah Frank's
[01:03:15] this weekend I watched an episode where Frank Zappa played an elusive drug drug lord and I just watched that happen Is it on Hulu or one of these things I have one DVD I'm a physical media guy I know they have they remastered them all
[01:03:29] Oh remind me I have a present for you What? I have a present I was supposed to give you like 10 months ago Oh okay great I don't have it on me just remind me it's so important Should we talk about the plot of Black Hat
[01:03:44] I feel like we kind of covered it When does he wear a black hat In the finale would have been nice if Hemsworth had a white hat and the bad guy had a black hat that would have been cool
[01:03:54] That would have been a clean sort of thing for me This has such a man He goes to Lids and just gets a blank This has such a classic man ending too except for public interviews basically it's the same ending where it's like he's alive and he won
[01:04:08] but now what does he do Now you're sort of like He just walks You gotta just walk the earth with the world against you Guy walking through a door That's the end of every other Michael Mann Not looking at the camera Yeah At the day we're recording this
[01:04:28] The Ferrari trailer just came out yesterday So people will be able to carbon date this episode recording And that was what he had His sort of biggest intended follow up to Black Hat was announced I think he was going to the Con-fil market with Christian Bale
[01:04:46] attached and they were going to try to get financing to make a big Ferrari biopic with Christian Bale And I feel like Mangold doing it has like completely kills that possibility Especially since Christian Bale is in this other movie No, it is so weird that Christian Bale
[01:05:06] is in a movie with the word Ferrari in the title Well as I understand it Christian Bale because he would have been playing Enzo Ferrari was going to have to gain weight or something like that Christian Bale was like let me at this
[01:05:20] He had the sandwich at the ready He was like a giant boa pasta waiting for the contract and he signed some pop tarts into that I can't wait to eat it Do you remember that Simpsons Trey Ossahar with the ironic punishment department
[01:05:34] where Homer has to go to hell where they feed him donuts all the time And he's like chained into a chair And they're just loading the donuts into his mouth I think that's like Christian Bale has a room in his house That's just fats that get funneled in
[01:05:48] Right, so what do you think happened with him moving over? I mean that was what definitively nail on the coffin killed the man movie it felt like Well I think there was at some point Bale dropped out and it was going to be Hugh Jackman
[01:06:02] Who I'd love to see work with Michael I feel like man could do a lot with with Jackman Yeah, I think I could work out too I mean, who knows The Ferrari movie was like the Ferrari script was a script that he wrote around the same
[01:06:18] time that he wrote Heat So basically like 30 years old Yeah, and it was also I think similar to Heat it was one of those scripts where he felt like he'd never quite licked the ending And then like finally felt like he'd licked the ending Right
[01:06:34] But of course, you know, the times have changed and you know, it's not easy to get a movie like that made now Right. I assume that's not going to happen but who knows I mean, he's also, if you remember Michael Mann produced The Aviator
[01:06:46] Of course, because he had his Howard Hughes movie Yeah, and there were kind of competing Howard Hughes movies which wound up not happening but and he was supposed to direct that I believe Yeah. And why did he, did he drop out to do
[01:06:56] collateral? I think he dropped out to do Miami Vice He dropped out, the thing he dropped out of for Miami Vice was Tonight He Comes which later became Hancock Right. Because he also has a producing credit on Hancock He does, he does. And we know
[01:07:10] because he got a Best Picture nomination for it Right. But that was like one of the best on Maid Scripts in Hollywood and was very much like a character piece and not a black comedy in the same way and not movie with action set pieces
[01:07:24] I'll watch his Hancock I mean, I enjoyed like the first half of Hancock Right. Well because Peter Berg is like a like, rated up slightly less introspective man He's definitely a decided to Michael Mann And I mean, Mann I think is produced like three of his movies
[01:07:40] Yeah. And Michael Mann was in the movie Battleship Yeah. I'm going to make a joke about the movie Battleship and I couldn't remember He was one of the old sailors He played a red peg That's the joke Come on David. He played a red peg
[01:07:58] He played a red peg, yeah I mean he could play any role written for Gene Hackman, right? Like give me that Like just put Michael Mann in a movie Even that Bird or Herzog like Sure, I'll play some villains, I don't know
[01:08:10] Yeah, has he actually done any movies? Michael Mann? I don't think so, has he? I feel like maybe there's like a I feel like there are What are some other lost Michael Mann projects? I've been trying to google this while Gates of Fire is the one that's like
[01:08:24] That one, what is that? That is, that was the competing version of 300 That wasn't 300, but that was the other Ancient Yeah, the Battle of Thermopy kind of thing And I've read that script, it's kind of a great script So
[01:08:42] I think it's another one that I know he still wants to do About the Battle of Ashencourt? I'm just gonna sidebar if you're for one second You looked up his acting credit Okay, so executive in Hancock There's a scene with the boardroom and he's one of the guys
[01:08:54] Whatever And then the other thing, we've talked about this Because I scrolled We've scrubbed the image, we don't know They say he's in the Tai Chi class and intern There are two Tai Chi classes At the beginning and the end of the movie
[01:09:08] Where Taniro is kind of like And I scrubbed They're the bookends of the film, looking for Michael Mann anywhere I certainly believe he could be in there Yeah Could not recognize him Nancy Myers is kind of the female Michael Mann
[01:09:22] And Michael Mann is kind of the male Nancy Myers Incredibly meticulous Over budget filmmakers But also like just, you know, lifestyle porn 100% What makes a woman, what makes a man 100% And also, right, just you imagine them sending
[01:09:38] A woman set that is going to be featured for two scenes Right, so I totally believe they're good friends And she was like, come on by You know, but we cannot find him Visually in that movie No, Nancy and or Michael Speak to this please
[01:09:52] That's interesting though that his big Unmade movies are sort of Greater epics than he has ever been able To pull off in terms of like big historical Action Yeah, and I believe the Ashencore Story was going to be kind of following a character
[01:10:06] Sort of through that world and Sure Sounds cool I mean, yeah, you know, I'd love to see Him do it. I haven't read that script Or anything like that but I know the Gates of Fire Script and that was a film that was kind of
[01:10:18] I mean that was That went through multiple directors And producers and stuff like that So in stars and I think Clooney Was involved at some point But But that was, you know, that was a Great script that would have been awesome to see Man tackle it
[01:10:36] I mean, you know, the thing is Last of the Mohicans is such a great movie Yes it is That you look at that and you're like It would have been interesting to see him do more Kind of like heavy period stuff Like that as opposed to just like
[01:10:49] You know within the realm of Sort of crime I was just googling that he also has Been over the last six or seven years Talking up Big Tuna a lot Which is supposed to be another like Chicago 40s mob Movie He has a movie called Big Tuna
[01:11:05] I'm telling you And now he has this imprint This publishing imprint Yes, there's crime novels so now it's like Well I'm gonna make Big Tuna as a book I'm like executive producing this Book So that then hopefully the book will inspire
[01:11:19] People to give me money to make the movie out of it That's funny Big Tuna was a Capone associate That's who that is And I think also Like the first book in his imprint came out called Hunting LaRue And it's actually a nonfiction book
[01:11:34] I don't like I think the Imprint is meant mainly for fiction But he decided to go with this This nonfiction one And it's interesting because the guy That it's about it's this guy Paul LaRue who was This like crime lord Who started off as a
[01:11:52] He was from Rhodesia and he started off In cyber security and he started And then started selling like pharmaceutical Pharmaceuticals online You know so like if you needed Prescription meds But you didn't have a prescription You could get them from Australia or wherever
[01:12:08] He started selling that and then he eventually got into like Arms dealing and all sorts of Crazy shit and he's basically the guy In black hat But like man did not know about this guy When he was writing black Like he found out about him later
[01:12:22] But even like the nationality Weirdly matches up because You know LaRue's from Rhodesia and then the guy In black hat has like this dutch accent It's like it's like these Any kind of looks like him because he's like Kind of this dumpy guy
[01:12:36] It's very strange how they match up But it's like totally coincidental And looking at this up the next book Scheduled to be published by His imprint is Clifford the big red dog And the Easter parade That seems like a weird I'll pinch you I don't burn people
[01:12:54] I'm a big red dog you fucking egg But look at him he's the insult of you dumb egg How great would it be if they were like You know this happening more and more these days Walt Becker has been fired Mid production from the live action Clifford
[01:13:08] The big red dog movie and replaced with Michael Mann during a page one Rewrite You're gonna see a dog this fucking big You know it's like we've talked about this You know What you're into the project Never heard of a bigger dog Like man fincher
[01:13:26] Scorsese these guys where studios are now like It's not even worth the prestige To us anymore It's gonna be too expensive we know what you're like You're old you're Not gonna take any Notes We have no control And it's gonna cost you much money
[01:13:42] Even though like it'll get Oscar buzz And good reviews How fucking long is this gonna take We just don't wanna work with you anymore That's my greatest fear about the movie industry Is that sort of mindset And it looked for a while like the Netflix
[01:13:54] Is an Amazon's of the world Like here we are to pick up the check right But even there I think kind of moving away from that I mean Netflix obviously has the Scorsese Thing but do you really think that they're gonna Be making more movies like that
[01:14:06] It's not impossible that like they have Sort of the budget for like one of those A year yeah Yeah you can see how there's this trend With television where like when Fox started When UPN started even with WB Started there like we are Targeting African Americans
[01:14:22] We're going to cater to an underserved market In television and the second They had a breakout hit with white people on it They were like Like now if we get to do the thing we wanted To do white people TV shows
[01:14:34] You know they always use them as a way to get Their footing I think weirdly in this Streaming era these companies have done the same Thing with prestige projects Like Amazon came in and like got Ted Hope and we're like let's get All the 90s otors
[01:14:48] Yeah Amazon was like with stillman Spike Lee like right like they had Jim Jarmusch let's call them all up What's the script in your closet What's the thing in your drawer that you haven't gotten to make You know like the expendables Of all tours of 90s
[01:15:02] Like early in D Right and I think what they were trying to do Was not to rope the audience In but to de-stigmatize The sort of lower rent idea Of it being a streaming thing So it's like if you get Alfonso Cuaron to trust you With his
[01:15:22] Like very slow meticulous Housekeeper drama And you push that movie properly Then filmmakers feel more comfortable Going to Netflix with their movies Knowing they'll be handled correctly What Netflix is actually in it for Is less trying to find the next Roma
[01:15:38] And more trying to find the next bright And the big thing is how do you make it Not look low rent to Will Smith To do an action movie for you You know And some of that I think also does expand You know their subscriber footprint too
[01:15:52] Of course Like doing something like Godless Which is like they didn't have a western And there are probably a lot of Guys out there who want to watch westerns Who maybe got a Netflix subscription Because of it But I am also sure In their endless Buckets of data
[01:16:12] And metrics that they will never share With the public The people who are watching stuff on Netflix Streaming are nerds Let's make things for nerds For underserved niche genres No for sure Because these are the people who are like You watch it on the Netflix On your computer
[01:16:32] We'll get them later We'll get to the ranch eventually But for the time being That people will connect to And I think we're just going to see more and more If they wanted to be prestige channels They would have cultivated The sort of HBO standard Of quality thing
[01:16:50] We make sure we so rarely dip below this And all these stream platforms Are like prestige is a way to get your foot in the door It really helps to win some Amis In order to get more people They're always going to love awards
[01:17:04] But now it's like Amazon has ordered the ring Netflix has the Witcher Just announced a Magic the Gathering series Which by the way It's Portof can't wait to see their take on Jose Molina, one of the showrunners A wonderful man over at the tech I don't know
[01:17:20] A show that was cancelled by Amazon because it's too niche Yeah I just think Yes, it's like There might have been a window Where Michael Mann could have gotten Amazon or Netflix To bankroll his crazy movie And I think he missed That window I think they're already now
[01:17:44] I think the Irishman might be The last of a certain type Of prestige film Bankrolled by the streaming services Before the pendulum swings again Right At that level, I don't know if it's going to happen again I disagree with David is
[01:18:00] Unlike the other guys you're roping him in with I think Scorsese will go back To being able to make studio film I think a lot of that's through the DiCaprio connection Of course, I'm not saying it's impossible I'm just saying it's gone from Studios like
[01:18:14] Jockeying to make a Michael Mann movie Whatever To that being a high risk Okay, you know that kind of a project And even when everything became more Like being counter number crunchers I'm just trying to reckon with the fact that Man has made another movie
[01:18:30] I mean honestly, it's not that dissimilar from You know like when you're a writer Or like you're a freelance writer And you're working with one editor And then that editor leaves and a new one comes in And you don't know where you stand with them
[01:18:42] I mean with Michael Mann and some of these guys They were often protected by studio heads Of course, no, no, you're totally right Studio heads who are like This is part of the business This is one of our guys He comes to us with a project
[01:18:56] Warner Brothers used to be famous for that We want to be the Yankees We want to have the strongest in-house roster And now pretty much they've said Like we're not giving directors cut to anyone other than Our three guys Clint Eastwood, Christopher Nolan, what's the other one?
[01:19:10] Those are the three guys they refer to It's just like we want to keep them in house I mean even Todd Phillips is making a superhero movie I mean not to say that it means that the culture Is ending or anything like that
[01:19:20] That is sort of the point Maybe Michael Mann should make Booster Gold I don't know Maybe he should make Hancock Bring back Hancock I mean honestly they're gonna run out of superheroes Soon they're gonna have to bring back Hancock Hancock will join the MCU
[01:19:36] I have read Tonight He Comes It is so radically different from what they end up making They could just make it You can just call it Tonight He Comes So the guy got paid money for this script That in no way resembles in any
[01:19:48] This is a guy who did heat As a TV miniseries And then did it like verbatim as a movie It was bad at the other I know that's the thing about LA Takedown Where it's so weird It's the same lines And it's so boring
[01:20:04] I've often said if I ever taught A film making class Or even like an acting class Show the diner scene from LA Takedown And show the diner scene from heat I mean it's like verbatim It's like a high school production of a Shakespeare play
[01:20:18] Versus like the Royal Shakespeare Company But it's like the same guy That's the most incredible argument For movie start-up It really is So Viola Davis in Black Hat Terrific Great performance I love that scene, I created my head for it But it's also like
[01:20:41] Another nice thing about the director's cut Is that you get more of her And actually it takes a little while For Hemsworth to come in So it actually does feel more like an ensemble piece Especially like a two-hander Especially now that you're watching it
[01:20:55] This should be Chris Hemsworth and Viola Davis Because she becomes a movie star Right around now And it's really It just works so much better As a film that's not about The hero-hacker Who must do all this stuff He's kind of part of the team
[01:21:13] This is also, and we need to talk about it Because it's been a running theme throughout our main series This is the best female character in any of his movies Close to that one I'll argue it is because it's the only
[01:21:23] Not that I'm saying this is the only test You should apply to female characters But I think it is helpful to do that test of just like Is Is this character in any way defined By them being female Because so often female characters in movies
[01:21:37] Their entire function is connected To the fact that they are female What their relationship is to someone else And this is just like a character That could have been played by A male actor But one could also argue That there's nothing Having a character
[01:21:55] Who is defined by the fact that they're female Isn't necessarily You don't necessarily write strong women Characters just by writing Characters who could be men No, that's what I'm saying I think Gong Lee's character in Miami Vice Is kind of an incredible character She's a good one
[01:22:13] I love that More backstory In a way than anyone else in that movie Yes, yeah We haven't recorded that episode yet That's the only reason I feel like she's not pinging for you That is probably the fact I mean certainly Vila is just
[01:22:31] As she is in almost any movie Such a talent that you can give her a very Thinly written role Not that this is per se And she can bring a ton to it We've talked about this before I think but that she says in interviews
[01:22:45] She likes watching cats a lot And she's like cat behavior Is so fascinating if you watch a cat And you can't figure out what they're thinking And you can't figure out when they're going to pounce And when they're going to recoil and all of that
[01:22:57] That she's like no human being will ever be more interesting To watch than any random cat But my goal is to try to get as close as I can And so many of the scenes in this Were like she's in an office with John Ortiz
[01:23:07] And it's her just her glances And her blinks and you're just going like What the fuck is this woman thinking I did think like this is like watching a cat Like this is like is she about to blow up
[01:23:17] Or is she going to quietly walk out of the room Yeah And her death scene is One of the Probably the best moment in this movie That whole sequence And Paul's at a perfect point in the movie It does feel like kind of like
[01:23:33] What's the, you know, like a good All-is-lost moment But also like the just man's Intent of trying to Get in his character's head And you see that little like That tower that just kind of fades out In the fog and it's like you're like
[01:23:49] This is the last thing this woman's ever going to see You know, it's really really just like Sends shivers up your spine That's profound I mean This movie the deaths are also Sort of abrupt like that Like even if the final Triumph and Screwdriver stabbings
[01:24:09] That he's obsessed with where it's like death is such A brutal act that affects The people around him so much but the actual The act, the physical act of violence upon you That kills you is so sort of abrupt and weird
[01:24:21] And then the black hat guy, Sadak whatever You know, he has that line where he's like Yeah, he's gone now so I'm not good Like why be sympathetic Like why have emotions about it? He's not here anymore Yeah, the player has exited The player has exited the game
[01:24:35] Right, black hat, it is such a good Black hat hacker, black hat hacker No but it's a black hat hacker named Hathaway That's the tongue twister He's not a black hat, he's a white hat They call him a black hat at the beginning
[01:24:47] The thing he was arrested for I think Was a little black hat I think it was the trailer right Where they say the actual words black hat Hacker named Hacker Hacker Hacker Hacker Hacker Which they don't in the movie
[01:24:59] I think that was a moment where people were laughing at the trailer When they say black hat happened Black hat hacker We just talked about Lee Hong-Wong and Tong Wei From Lust Caution Which we've covered on this podcast They were lovers there They are brother and sister here
[01:25:15] Tong Wei is pretty great I agree I think she falls a little bit prey To just, I sense In her that thing that happens where just like Her facility With English She speaks well in this movie You can kind of tell that she's uncomfortable Sure
[01:25:35] I think the scenes where she's speaking in her native language She is so much more sort of arresting Just in her sort of physical presence And in Lust Caution That some of the English language scenes In this movie I just see the trepidation Of someone who's like
[01:25:49] I hope I'm getting this right But she is very good in it And he's very good too We already shouted out whole McElaney Can't wait for season 2 of Mindhunter where is that That seems to be On route No, no, from what I hear it's like a Fincher thing
[01:26:07] The studio stopped working with Fincher as well And he moved over to TV He set up 3 HBO projects They shut all of them down Two of them were already filming Because he was too difficult And apparently Mindhunter has just been Very, very slow coming back together
[01:26:23] But I also like I have actor friends who have worked on Mindhunter where like it's the fucking best Right, because he's there the whole time He's there the whole time and you get to spend Like 4 days working on 2 lines You know
[01:26:37] And then the opposite of that is Sodaberg Where they're like it's great you do 27 pages in 2 hours I feel like Actors want one or the other The middle is what they don't want When I talked to Sodaberg about High-Flying Bird He couldn't stop emphasizing how fast
[01:26:51] The iPhone makes everything He just said you set up so quickly It's great and then you just walk over there And I'm in the van going back from set And I'm editing the footage By that night I've already put it into the timeline No, I have heard
[01:27:05] From people who are supposed to be in the next season Of Mindhunter That we're like I've been on hold for 6 months Presumably I'm going to film at some time I don't know when we're starting I'm not allowed to work I'm supposed to be in it Weird industry
[01:27:21] Weird industry So you were at the bam screening of the director's cut When was that? Is that like a couple years later? Is that 2017? It's 2016 So it's like a year later Yeah you're right, it's one year later And he said at the time that he wasn't done
[01:27:39] Of course But at the same time He The film is Was I think kind of out of his hand Even though he had final cut and everything But he doesn't own the movie And I think that was actually kind of a big deal Like it's legendary movie
[01:27:57] Because I remember asking him something like I said oh you know will the director's cut Be released or whatever And he said it's really Legendary's call And I think I even asked him Backstage about like is there going to be A soundtrack album release for Black Hat
[01:28:13] And he was like it's really not up to me at all It's very weird How persistent the director's cut Has been in terms of popping up Every like 6 to 8 months In different places without ever being Like consistently available anywhere That's only available watching on
[01:28:29] Like fucking FX with commercial breaks now You know? Or that it was on TNT You can't rent it anywhere They've never released it digitally Yeah I had assumed That why we had not gotten a physical release Or whatever is because he was still tinkering
[01:28:43] But maybe it's also just an unprofitable Proposition You're just going the digital age Isn't it just like pushing a button I agree I don't fucking know That's what they've done FX has been This is a movie whose Star is Australian But its Australian Release was scrapped
[01:29:03] After its opening weekend because it was so It just did so poorly Its Chinese release was scrapped And half the movie you look at It's like oh this was designed to be released in China It's insane that this movie never came out in China
[01:29:15] Or it came out in Hong Kong Not in China They just completely abandoned this It did Come out in The United Kingdom It had some international release But it didn't come out in China We've been grabbing on this The whole miniseries
[01:29:35] It's crazy that this is his lowest grossing film Unadjusted including Thief And the Keep Including like Manhunter All of them Adjusted for inflation it is roundly beaten But even unadjusted the Keep does more Theatrically than this does No the Keep is the one that does
[01:29:55] The Keep is 4.2 unadjusted But it beats it adjusted Thief made 11 Wow Which adjusted as 37 And this opens to number 11 And makes 7 in total 8 Gotta give him some credit Domestically 8 Not good It costs 70 I thought it cost a little more I feel like that's Legendary's reported number
[01:30:25] It's not like it looks like an incredibly expensive movie But it was filmed in all sorts of places Right It has some of those locations Like that shot in Malaysia of the tin Mines What's that place Tell me more It costs 90 million dollars on it
[01:30:43] The soundtrack thing is also interesting Because it's two credit people It's Harry Greggs and William's And Atticus Roth Right, who worked with the Trent Razor And Harry Greggs and Williams was upset Both of them have said that They don't recognize any of their compositions
[01:30:59] Half the score is the score from Elysium Which is amazing I know Just imagine that was like He uses the puns and red lines score I think he uses things as temp tracks And gets so committed to them that he's just License it
[01:31:15] We don't hear any of our score In this movie, we don't stand by this It's a weird score And Michael Mann's response was If you want people to hear your music Be a fucking recording artist He had some public statement that was
[01:31:29] If you're a composer, you hand me the thing And I'll do whatever the fuck I want With that goddamn egg That is my impression of Michael Mann It's a damn egg My face hem is worth So let's look at this box office weekend
[01:31:45] We all know the movie The Crush So this is the Martin Luther King weekend American Sniper This is the weekend American Sniper goes wide It's the weekend American Sniper It's gross increases by 18,000% Going wide it makes 107 million dollars Crazy And it's fourth week An R rated drama
[01:32:07] January making 100 million dollars Opening weekend Opening weekend Wide release yet American Sniper You cannot overstate how effective that trailer is That is one of the great It's a very good trailer Like Black Hat Should probably not be opening A Martin Luther King weekend Anyway
[01:32:31] No one knew American Sniper was going to Eat its lunch with that It's the most important thing from that year But the other thing that doesn't make any sense Is Also I would not say that American Sniper should be opening on Martin Luther King Either But again
[01:32:49] It did Right, that's now become the time you open Military Valid movies And what's one call it Loan Survivor Yes, which made Was before I think 13 maybe Does Patriot Stay come out that time? Yeah, I think so The classic expanded Yeah Zero Dark Thirty And did well
[01:33:19] Yes, those movies all did well Black Hat It's been here opened at number 11 for 4 million dollars That's an issue It's so embarrassing to open outside the top 10 Especially in a dead time of year Even if you have a big movie coming out
[01:33:33] Below the fifth weekend of night at the museum Secret of the Tomb That's where it's opening Below the fourth week of Unbroken These movies don't exist So you went to see it Wow There was also some storm I think we talked about that Griffin, there was like a
[01:33:55] There was a big snow storm I went to see the last screen of Black Hat That might be Snowden I had this weird experience at Sundance Because Sundance was a little while Right after this And I was supposed to go To a screening of What was the
[01:34:13] The Wolf Pack Oh sure I got on the wrong Bus or something like that And I'd been thinking that day I was like maybe go see Black Hat Because it's like the last day That it's going to be in theaters It was a Thursday night
[01:34:31] And I got on the wrong Sundance I actually did not get on the Sundance show I actually got on a bus And at the point When I realized that I was Going the wrong way and I was totally out of the way
[01:34:43] I was like, oh I gotta get off this bus I get off the bus I am standing in front of a mall With a theater showing Black Hat And it's like But I wound up going to The game and got me and I had to go see
[01:34:57] The Wolf Pack But I was like this is a sign from God Like I was here for the final show Black Hat and I could have gone to see it But I didn't This answer is not as good as I thought it was going to be
[01:35:09] But I want to ask you two guys Anyway How many Academy Award winners appear In Night of the Museum 3 secret of the tomb? Winners Winners I thought it was five Okay Amy Adams is in it She's in two She's in two only in nominee
[01:35:31] Give me some clues here I forgot that Mickey Rooney had never won But he's in it, but he's only been nominated Well he's an honorary Oscar Does that count? Hugh Jackman who's been nominated didn't win Sure, then still in it
[01:35:45] If you want to count Mickey Rooney it's four There are two other people who have won best Lead Actor Who are in Night of the Museum 3 secret of the tomb Give me a clue Well Rami Malik Because he plays like a pharaoh I believe he plays King Tut
[01:36:03] Is that possible? Or Ramsey's or something like that Character maybe he's Ramsey He plays Aukman Rock Ben is fully Checked out of this And then I believe his father in the film Yep, correct He's credit as Auk's father I literally you could have let me guess that
[01:36:23] I didn't even know he was in it But I was like who would you like Lazily cast What Oscar winner will you Lazily cast in the third night At the museum to play an Egyptian God or whatever And he would say yes Rebel Wilson, Ricky Gervais
[01:36:39] Dick Van Dyke No, no and it's actually a big shame It's actually a big shame So number two at the box office Is A new film What's the disparity In numbers between American Sniper and number two This movie opens to 25 There are two huge openings This one
[01:37:07] Black Hat is the non huge opening Who knew this would end up being such a blockbuster weekend Okay, Opus 25 What's its final gross And this is an expansion The bumper January release Final gross 76 Worldwide 268 Spawned a sequel that everybody loves You being sarcastic The sequel is loved
[01:37:31] More than the first Yes But I think you and I think opposite Oh, we're talking about our main man Pantam Which we get dragged a lot And I think Pantam won is better by a hair By a single bear's hair I think they're essentially equivalent
[01:37:49] I mean I tweet this thing that I think Parabellum is the best at the three John Wick movies But I also think those movies are Essentially equal I agree
[01:37:59] I think they just work as a whole and I want to spend as much time in the John Wick universe And the much time in the Pantam universe as I can Until of course Pantam versus Wick down the justice Bill, do you care about the Pantam movies?
[01:38:09] I like them. I had to review both of them And gave them good reviews I love, I thought Grant really kind of Deserved an Oscar Yeah, Knuckles McGinty, Brandon Glaisman Um, yeah Actually, and as a parent It's actually really nice when movies like that come around
[01:38:27] Super fuckin' well made Yeah, and you can actually take your child to them Multiple times without feeling Incredibly guilty I'll say also, I would never wish this fate upon him But don't you every time There's a new fuckin' Disney Quote unquote live action adaptation
[01:38:43] Like I wish they'd just let Paul King do it Right. Like he's the only guy who fuckin' Is able to capture this shit Like Mary Poppins Returns should have been Directed by Paul King I love Favreau's Jungle Book I genuinely love that movie I like it
[01:38:59] So you're kinda in on Lion King I am, the thing is I'm not a big fan of Lion King Me neither. None of us are So I mean I trust Favreau To do a decent job with it, but who the hell knows
[01:39:13] So I had predicted it was gonna be the highest grossing Film in history. I predicted this about two years ago Yeah. I was doubling down And down and down and down until The recent spat of marketing That reminded everyone Most of all me that
[01:39:27] Most of these animals are gross looking And lack personality in real life Yeah, then I was scared Now I'm worried the movie won't connect Because I feel like the animals in Jungle Book Were a lot more stylized And if it's still gonna connect
[01:39:41] I think it'll be maybe the sixth highest grossing movie in history I don't think it's gonna end up being number one I don't think it's gonna be number one I don't know. I think it was a very wrong I think it will be interesting after this year
[01:39:51] When, you know, Disney has Avengers, it has an endgame Has Episode 9 And this Which will probably be one of the biggest live-action It'll be one of the 10 best grossing films ever After this year, like They'll never have another year No, like this will kind of be And Frozen 2
[01:40:11] They're gonna have the two biggest anime movies of all time The biggest superhero movie of all time And after this you are just going to see Articles about Disney struggling Because they are never going to be able to match Someone tweeted today, but just like
[01:40:23] Good for them, they're gonna have an incredible year Well deserved I do not pity the person Who has to sell their profits next year And if you think about it, and it's kind of Across the board too with the studios
[01:40:35] Like this is, we're sort of coming to the end Of The franchises that define The era of the temple Is that everything's been shaped around these franchises And most of those franchises are hitting their cycle ends And next year it looks really weird
[01:40:49] And at the same time for the other studios A lot of the other kind of big franchises Have died, right? I mean Transformers Isn't making the kind of money it used to And they need to And in both those cases It's very clear that the lesson is like
[01:41:03] To give it some time Like they can't force it again Here's Disney's 2020 Onward, which what do you think of that trailer? I agree Although if it wants to be like Dungeons & Dragonsy I'm all in But it kind of looks like I was very excited by the premise Sure
[01:41:23] I will admit I auditioned for that movie I believe I did not get the part You don't think so? I think I did not receive the lead role I've heard otherwise But there are rumors There are persistent rumors The last I check
[01:41:39] I am not top build on the poster for Onward So that's my argument against me being in it Right Who knows? I would love to be as surprised as everyone else I think it looks okay I find the premise very exciting I hope it's just a bad trailer
[01:41:53] Do you know what the actual plot is? Go ahead Are you allowed to tell us? Maybe I'm not allowed Onward, Mulan I am excited by the fact that Nikki Harrow is directing that Sure I like her a lot Did you see McFarland USA? I like the most
[01:42:15] McFarland USA is actually Secretly kind of a great movie I agree with this The fact that she did that within the Disney system Makes me think Mulan might be cool It's got a really cool cast Mulan is the kind of thing where I'm like Have at it
[01:42:31] I don't have enough affection for the original It's a sacred cow I don't hate the original Because Mulan doesn't have that same Legendary status Where they have to hit the same beats I think there's a little I was the Mulan age There are people who obviously love Mulan
[01:42:49] But I just think they're allowed A little more freedom in how they can make More historically accurate Sources are so kind of eclectic And diverse and it's just like a bunch of Different myths kind of I think Mulan could be cool
[01:43:03] Maybe the trailer comes out and Mulan is tronky Marvel 1 Which I think a lot of people assume is Black Widow Yes Artemis Fowl which got bumped to Memorial Day From August About a child thief That's a franchise If it hits because there's a lot of books Right
[01:43:23] It feels a little past its I mean peak cultural relevancy But go on Untitled Pixar Yeah right, there's supposed to be two Pixar's next Jungle Cruise No idea if it's a big box office player But like I'm a whole bit The one and only Ivan
[01:43:45] I have no idea what that is That's a weird, it's like Animals in a zoo Mike White wrote it Sounds great Another Marvel Which I think people assume is Eternals Correct Both Marvels this year Let's see if this goes Chloe Zhao making a movie that As of now
[01:44:07] Apparently stars Richard Madden, Camille Nanjiani And Angelina Jolie Sounds great Whatever the Disney movie is The animated Disney movie That's like a Thanksgiving product Oh yeah, because they canceled a bunch of them I don't know what that's supposed to be Which like, okay
[01:44:25] So like that's like what you're saying For some reason 2019 was cast as This Insanier with the ad fox They have a Star Wars A Frozen, a Toy Story, a Marvel It actually makes me wonder Do they know something that we don't Like are the billionaires like getting ready
[01:44:43] To kind of pull up the The walls and get on their boats While the rest of us fucking drown And burn and die It honestly feels that way, they're like okay So we have to let's just agree by 2019
[01:44:55] We end the infinity suck up with the ad Star Wars People need some closure Let them go out happy before Because even we leave them stranded On their shitty dying planet Even 2021 Has Avatar and Indiana Jones Poor James Cameron We're gonna have makeup As he's drowning
[01:45:17] Do you think that's part of those movies Getting pushed back Is that like James Cameron knows when the earth Is gonna expire better than anyone else And he's like okay we got a couple more years So let me just push off the Avatar announcement
[01:45:29] The Avatar movie is gonna come out After humanity dies on earth And he'll be like yeah no it's finished It's finished You can come look at it Too bad roads don't exist It's in Canada, my movie's in Canada Anyway I think we all agree
[01:45:45] The future of the movie industry is very interesting And in flux I just always get annoyed at anyone who Writes the article that's like This is it, it's definitive X, you know like because of Like six months of box office gross
[01:45:59] Here's the thing that I'm interested in right now Is just like what Is, cause I feel like for the last Five or six years Minus A fucking funny guy I'm gonna throw in a lying king argument Into the mix There's been like a clear
[01:46:15] Like this is gonna be the highest grossing film of the year This is coming out This will be the highest grossing film of the year You can call it a year out in advance I don't know if there is one next year Like there are big movies
[01:46:27] But I don't know if there's a like Well obviously Everyone's gonna go see This is just gonna demolish Joker Tenet That's right Sonic the Hedgehog That's the liver's con I'm looking at all their studios things now New mutants James Bond 25 comes out in April
[01:46:51] Let's see if that sticks One assumes Bond will come out Trolls World 2 World Tour, sorry Fast and Furious 9 Wonder Woman Minions the Rise of Gru Alright Maybe that's your number one Is Michael Mann directing that? Yes Top Gun What voice am I doing now? Yellow fuck
[01:47:19] You dumb egg They do look kind of like dumb eggs Ghostbusters the Rise of Boys again I mean These are weird, there's a lot of untitled Blank Event films Morbius The Jared Leto Morbius movie that everyone's been demanding What's Venom 2? That should be 2020
[01:47:39] I don't see it here on the schedule It might be Untitled Sony You know what here, it says 2020 Untitled Sony Marvel sequel So that's probably Venom 2 Unless it's Into the Spider-Verse Sure Spider-Verse 2 Spider-Man Junior Year This is a weird list of There's so many of these Black Panther 2
[01:48:03] There's like a Marvel February 2021 that everyone assumes Black Panther 2 There's so many of these like Here it is folks The logos of the movies that have not been Written or cast yet Untitled Universal Event Film 4 That actually That sounds really good That might be a big one
[01:48:25] Untitled WB Event Film 2 What if I'm working for Deadline and I'm like Everyone knows that Untitled Universal Event Film 4 The most, the safest bet of the sum We all think this Untitled Amblin Project Like what is an events film? I'm not cutting an event film There's events
[01:48:43] Yes, I do love when they just call Event film where it's like what does that mean It means it's not a superhero movie or animated But like I don't know some shit will happen Well like here this is like Untitled Universal Event Comedy
[01:48:55] This isn't just some untitled universal comedy They're calling it this way Number one if he passes We're gonna call up Rebel Wilson Yeah Alright, get off your phone I feel like you're getting sucked into all the untitled events Of the next 50 years What about this one?
[01:49:15] Untitled Affirm Films Coach Project Alright That could literally be anything Isn't Affirm Films one of those Inspirational movies But they're now state-of-the-art Coaches so that really could be anything There's some guy whose job is like Every week there's an article In any local newspaper about a coach
[01:49:35] Send it to me and I will deem it I'll see if it's inspirational enough Untitled Affirm Coach Event Films They've got their Google Alert for Coach And like Dead Child And they have their Easter weekend release date After a 10th tragedy They're just waiting for the right coach
[01:49:51] Yeah, he's like an old fucking call Who's an Oscar winner from the 90s What if that slot ends up just being A movie adaptation of Craig Teen Hellsens Coach Affirm was like we couldn't find one That's when it'll start to happen We think there's a lot of potential
[01:50:07] For Major Dad the movie It'll become that Hey, it's a brand name People know Major Dad They're gonna do a Golden Girl Cinematic Universe where you show them Out of their own film It's just young plans I just love saying Colin Argins That's like my favorite
[01:50:27] Stupid studio pitch ever Sophia Petrillo Origins Wolverine Yeah, right Okay, there are no good jokes left Well, now we're done with Man We're gonna have a bonus episode We're done with Man, we're gonna do the bonus Of Miami Vice Pilot
[01:50:43] Which we talked about a lot today and now come out on Thursday Which he did direct but obviously his finger We always try throwing a little bonus That's something they didn't direct What's your favorite man, Bill Goh? That's a good question Could you pick a favorite?
[01:50:57] It has to be Heed Heed is like in my all-time top 5, 6, 7 movies But like I mean Gun to my head If I had to watch a Michael Mann movie right this minute I think I'd pick Miami Vice That's the one I can't stop watching But like, you know
[01:51:17] You're a fiend for Vice Vice Hito Don't you wish we had a theme restaurant Just so we could name dishes like that You know what I'm saying? Yes, of course I do, sounds great I wish we could have a punny menu and just have a restaurant
[01:51:31] That's like celebrating all of our favorite movies Like our own planet We should buy a planet Hollywood David You and I Just like a disused and you turn it into Like Griffin and David's blank check You know food bag It's like those It's like those
[01:51:49] There used to be a restaurant in DC It was called Cities And I don't know if it's still here But like, you know every year Or something like that or every season It would be a different city So like that would be what you do
[01:52:03] We would theme briefing the reference to the Middle East Yeah exactly So it would be like for 12 weeks only Like Michael Mann's dinner I was even thinking we could just put out recipes Right We could just put out like our Michael Mann nachos
[01:52:17] And then everyone can make their own nachos And eat a long Or you could Just a podcast You could solicit recipes If you were to make a dish called Michael Mann nachos What would be in it Michael Manicotti It's Manicoy Steve Keesh That doesn't really work
[01:52:39] Michael Mann does he eat Like they just strike me as someone who's like A gourmet I think he owns a restaurant I could be wrong I believe he owns a restaurant in Miami He's a guy Look it up right now
[01:52:55] But he's a guy where I would believe you if you told me Like no, he just takes spoonfuls of protein powder Given how many Diner scenes are in his movies though Yes Now I want him to make a kitchen movie Because that's also about People under pressure
[01:53:11] Like his version of Big Night Like people would die Professionalism that consumes you You should have directed Burnt Michael Mann working with Bradley Cooper Would probably be a blast Bradley Cooper is one of those only movie stars left I feel like Bradley Cooper
[01:53:27] The chef is one of the most obsessed Right, where it's like you're completely You don't have a personal life I'm finding any Michael Mann risks running into him I feel like the two guys who could get Michael Mann a green light today They'd have to work on it
[01:53:39] Like it wouldn't be an easy green light But I feel like those two guys with the right source material And being like I'll look over them I'll make sure the thing gets done on time Right
[01:53:49] Anyway we're gonna put the blank check millions into buying it at Plain of Hollywood Yeah, yeah Contribute to our Patreon so that we can own a restaurant It's going to be like in an airport Like it's going to be in like O'Hare It's like a counter
[01:54:03] You know how there was that big lawsuit Where they had all the cheers locations At airports and there was like a robot George went and a robot John Radsenberger And they were just sort of like talk at the bar So you could feel like you were at cheers
[01:54:15] Okay And the two of them sued and then the people Who in the restaurants were like no these aren't your characters This is just a fat depressed man And fact obsessed mailman And they like won so much money In the lawsuit that all of them got shut down
[01:54:31] We should also buy those robots And retrofit a premium hour clothes So buy Plain of Hollywood Buy the robots from cheers and then it's just the two of us And they just are playing The box office game
[01:54:43] Yeah, so you can sit there and be like oh my god I'm there Griffin isn't looking at his phone Also there's no chefs There's no waiters This thing would lose It takes like three hours for your meal to come out
[01:54:55] This thing we're pitching would make black hat look proper It would lose the most money in history We'd be like in the record books And they'd be like oh the worst business proposition Number one Yeah Thank you so much for being here Always a pleasure
[01:55:13] My mom has called Your previous appearance the Dunkirk episode The most relaxing podcast episode Oh no, oh my god He's like a very relaxing man It was purely as accomplished I was really stressed out That is funny though considering that Dunkirk is one of the most
[01:55:29] Most movies that were made She was like I listened to that episode Like ten times because I find her very relaxing Wow Take that to the bank I should start with an ASMR We've had some ASMR You guessed and you're one of them Miriam Bale is very ASMR
[01:55:47] Some people have very soothing voices Banderwarp I find very relaxing on the mic Yeah Maybe this is a profitable venture David's rubbing his hands together That's ASMR So that's Michael Mann And then There's no Palak cleanser We're going straight in The castle of
[01:56:11] I'm gonna fuck up the name again Kegliostro Right Howl's Moving Podcast Howl's Moving Podcast Yes So yeah Going To buy your Miyazaki DVDs Or go find out when it's playing In theaters near you because they're playing all around the country Or go to your local library
[01:56:35] We love libraries and we're gonna buy A library and turn it into something else too We're gonna lose all our money Thank you all for listening Please remember to rate, review, subscribe Thanks to Anne for Guto for her social media Joe Bonaparte rounds for artwork
[01:56:49] Lane Montgomery for her theme song Go to blankies.red.com for some real nerdy shit Go to TeePublic for some real nerdy shirts Go to our Patreon for The Michael Mann bonus episodes we've done Including us playing the keep role playing game And our continuing trek through
[01:57:05] The Marvel Cinematic Universe Via commentary And as always Blah blah blah blah