Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness with Patrick Willems

[00:00:00] Blank Check with Griffin and David. Blank Check with Griffin and David. Don't know what to say or to expect. All you need to know is that the name of the show is Blank Check.

[00:00:19] You break the rules and become a hero. I do it and become the podcast. That doesn't seem fair. That's Wanda, right? Wanda Maxima. Yeah, Maxima.

[00:00:31] Now here's the thing. Looking at the quotes page for this movie, which let me just check my notes here, is called Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness. He's in it.

[00:00:39] This is a movie where if you look at a quotes page, even having seen the film twice, all of this reads like gobbledygook. Right. It's Greek. Yes. Here are some quotes here. Baron Mordo, careful Steve, in this path exacts a heavy toll.

[00:01:02] He says that pretty, she would tell the, this path exacts a heavy toll. He puts a little butter on that one. Reasonable line, right? Here's another one. Black Bolt, I'm sorry. Now the context of the movie is very different. I'm sorry, sorry, sorry, it's all loud.

[00:01:19] But it's just written like that. Black Bolt, I'm sorry. How about this one? Scarlet Witch, and then brackets, sees zombie strange. Dreamwalking you hypocrite. These are great quotes. I gotta say, I've been wondering for the past, I don't know, month at this point what you were gonna do.

[00:01:33] I had two guesses and you didn't do either. Okay, okay. What were your two? I thought, the one that in the movie when I saw it, I was like, I bet Griffin's gonna do this.

[00:01:42] Was, the line is, this time it's gonna take more than killing me to kill me. That's the best line in the movie. Great line. I just didn't know how to fucking butcher that one. More than podcast me to podcast me.

[00:01:54] Yeah, at that point though, does it sound like anything? I think Rachel McAdams nails the sort of like go back to hell line, but again, that doesn't really translate into your ridiculous... Podcast back to hell and you could tie it into the title of a miniseries.

[00:02:05] This is another one where I just think this was transcribed poorly. Like the way, the way this, not to note fucking IMDB quote submission artists, okay? Captain Carter, I could do this all day underneath gets bisected by her own shield. Good moment. Just rude, but rude, rude.

[00:02:22] Just like give her the fucking quote. I'll give her the quote. Yeah, don't undercut it. Well, she does get bisected by her own shield though. It's pretty funny. Spoiler alert. Yes. For you know... The biggest movie of the year.

[00:02:33] All multiverse character in a right in the biggest movie. Well, no, it's no longer the biggest movie of the year. As in we have delayed this episode so long that it's no longer the biggest movie.

[00:02:41] Well, I was going to say, I don't remember a damn thing about this movie. You saw it maybe three weeks ago? Yes. You have to remind me as we go along. I've seen it twice and even I, I remember the movie. We've, we've...

[00:02:52] Yeah, I also see it twice. Even I am like, right, some of the details are fuzzy. This was another thing where... I remember he's very funny. We had a couple delays, a couple cases of the vid, unfortunately. Yeah, call us Kid Vid. Call us Kid Vids.

[00:03:07] Call us Kid Vids. And, and yes, yes, this, there were a couple, there were a couple delays. Not in the scheduling of this episode. Coming out, hitting your ears. Just in time for the Disney Plus launch. A thing that still just feels strange.

[00:03:24] Every time they tweet out like... Doctor Strange. Doctor Strange will be on Disney Plus in 15 days. Yeah. And you're like, isn't that movie number two at the box office? Aren't you just taking money away from yourself? What the fuck are you talking about?

[00:03:35] But also, they're kind of right. Like the life cycle of the movie is sort of like, I guess it's pretty much... It made its fucking $400 million very quickly and it's done? Well, yes. But I think that is not indicative of Marvel... How Marvel movies do universally.

[00:03:54] I actually think it's indicative of general unhappiness with this movie. I think so too. From Marvel fans. I think so too. Like I think Shang-Chi had more... Yes. I think they had more blood at the box office by the point they put it on Disney Plus.

[00:04:06] Not that this movie has done poorly in any sense. Obviously, it is a big money-grossing hit. Especially when you consider that it's a Doctor Strange sequel. Yes. About the multiverse. A thing that would have sounded ludicrous even a few years ago, etc. It's another wild thing.

[00:04:23] It made like double what Doctor Strange made, right? Doctor Strange 1 overperformed. It did like 270 domestic. And we were all having to deal with the election happening at the same time. It was one of those, I saw it right around when Trump got elected movies.

[00:04:39] He's also a friggin' wizard. Which is kind of corny. 232, Griffin. Okay, sorry. Worldwide number? 676. But not the 1 billion that Doctor Strange will make. No, I do remember feeling though. And then, you know, fucking Black Panther comes out and Captain Marvel crushes this as well.

[00:04:58] But it was like, that was pretty high for a first movie. At that point. Not just a first movie though. Doctor Strange with Benedict Cumberbatch? It was not one of those things where you were like, this is a home run.

[00:05:13] Doctor Strange to me felt like the real sign of like, oh Marvel has become such a thing. That even this is going to be a colossal hit. But general people, normal people shouldn't care about it all. Let me say a couple things.

[00:05:26] This is Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin. It's a podcast about filmography. David was very fast, very on it. And he was looking for me to compliment him and tell me he did a good job.

[00:05:34] I'm more like trying to see how abstract my I'm David can sound at a certain point. Yeah. Like it just sort of sounds like a weird alien noise. It's like my father's signature over the years has morphed into just a line.

[00:05:47] He just kept on simplifying it to the point where it's literally just a line. Now he's like some medieval peasant who's like, make your mark here on the paper. Right. Makes a line. My mother, by the way, signs checks at restaurants with a fucking family crest.

[00:06:01] With a quill wax up her fucking ring. It's a podcast about filmography directors who have massive success early on in their career. Say an Evil Dead trilogy. And are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion products they want.

[00:06:13] Sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce it to the multiverse. Baby. This has been a miniseries on the films of Sam Raimi. We're saying goodbye. We are. A delayed goodbye. A delayed goodbye.

[00:06:26] We've already moved on to the other series, but this is this is that one thing we had to pin down. Which we've announced. We've shook around DeFossi. This was the one we kept on struggling to schedule. And the miniseries has been called Podcast Me To Hell.

[00:06:39] Today we're talking about Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness. Our guest today is Patrick Willems. That's right. Hello. The Patrick H. Willems YouTube channel, but also director of the new film just premiering on Nebula, Night of the Coconut. Thank you.

[00:06:52] Another way in which this fucking time out. Well, actually, what's the actual date of its premiere? Well, as of our recording, it comes out in two days and so it'll be out when this episode. But it just recently premiered. Yes. And look in the description.

[00:07:08] There'll be a link so you can watch. Hell yeah. Getting that BC bump. I love it when we do that. I love it because it was like, oh, fuck this thing timed out. Doctor Stranger episodes coming out six weeks after the movie comes out.

[00:07:21] Will anyone give a shit? And you're like, oh, Disney Plus. Patrick's fucking movie. Everything works out great. All this to say Patrick had a premiere last night. I got too drunk and I did karaoke. My voice is gone. Griffin and I were out until about 4 a.m. Yeah.

[00:07:35] Griffin and I were out until 4 a.m. I would say I woke up today around 5 a.m. So like there was a one hour window of you guys sleeping and me sleeping. That's you assuming that I got to sleep. Well, that's another good point.

[00:07:47] It was hard to turn the brain off last night. I could have swung by and woken you up. I could have tickled you. I don't think I would have appreciated that. No, but I had to introduce you. I had this podcast because I want to bring this up.

[00:08:03] Yes. You did a video. You do a there's a video series. I'd say it's an unofficial series you've done where you will take your parents to see the latest entry of a franchise where they have no familiarity with. These are like patriotic goals. Right.

[00:08:19] And so we did two. We did one for Avengers Endgame. Yes, I think they had seen Iron Man 1 and we skip that. And then we did F9. Anything they now I will say shout out to my parents on their own. They went back and watched the first day.

[00:08:33] Fucking cool. That's great. Now the end game video you're sort of talking with your parents going like what do you know right? You'd always do this thing of like I just want to test you through cultural cosmos. Right. What's what's reached you?

[00:08:47] And you have that thing that's kind of sweet where your dad reveals that he was like more of a Marvel fan growing up than you ever kind of knew. Yeah. Was he just one of those guys where it's like he gets older and he put

[00:08:57] childish things away or whatever. I think his thing I think he like went to college, you know, in the 70s and is like, I don't know that I want to play sports and do drugs. Like my mom read comics all the time when she was.

[00:09:08] I just it's just but like she never went return to it. So it's just vestige. Right. Also never had any impulse to go see the movie. No of these things decades later. Like my father bragged to me once about the fact that he was like he showed

[00:09:21] me a college photo from his fucking college yearbook and he had a Spiderman shirt and he was like and that was cool at the time people weren't wearing shirts with things on them. And I was like graphic to use the hot new thing.

[00:09:31] Tim Conway in 30 Rockers like shirts didn't have words on them back then. I think about that joke all the time. This is truly what my father said to me but I was like you have any affinity for Spiderman at any point in your life.

[00:09:43] So you're like asking your dad and it's like what characters you know he's like Spiderman. You know he's like obviously. And then he was like Dr. Strange I fucking love Dr. Strange. And your dad outs himself as this like heart is like that was the one I

[00:09:53] really liked as a kid. Was remembering deep cut shit. Was your dad you know a child of the 60s because Dr. Stranger is a bit of a sort of cool counterculture. I mean that is 100 percent. That's what it was speaking. Right. Yeah.

[00:10:09] I'm so surprised to finish your thought. And then I get a little. Oh yeah. Sure. But yeah you know my dad was like you know you grew up in like Long Island and like the 60s and stuff like that.

[00:10:20] And like you know then like you know went off to Oberlin like grew long hair and a mustache and all those things. And yeah it's like obviously the guy he would be into is just like the psychedelic guy. Right.

[00:10:35] And the thing is like you know you read the the lead did co-star and it's basically that like which is really worth reading. Really really good. It's really fun. There's like one like omnibus that collects the whole run.

[00:10:44] And what's fun about that is I back then for a very long time comics were just very episodic it's like each issue self-contained story and the lead did co-run is clearly the one where did co-just like absolutely did whatever

[00:10:56] the fuck he wanted and did a like 20 part serialized story like every issue it just like it just continues in one long journey around the world and it's just an excuse to like go into your dimension have a bunch of shapes

[00:11:10] sure just like motion up against each other. Yeah I mean it's not just that but he builds out this sort of bananas you know quasi spiritual canon where he's just mixing up you know psychedelia and Eastern mysticism and Egyptian stuff like Samarian stuff right you know

[00:11:28] you mix it all together and you make this weird mythology right. And because no one fucking read Dr. Strange he didn't have his own. It was a strange tales. Yeah right. That was the thing with all those old issues it's like it's strange tales

[00:11:41] and half the issue with Dr. Strange half of it is like Nick Fury. Sure sure. And like Roy Thomas talks about how like you know people come up and be like man do you guys like do all kinds of like LSD and mushrooms

[00:11:53] and they'd be like what no we don't do any of that you know but like everyone reading them was like these guys must be whacked out of their heads. You know. Damn all right I have a total new appreciation for Dr. Strange.

[00:12:04] We're going to get into Dr. Strange and Silver Surfer. Actually the two psychedelic heroes. I will say in terms of Ben's have any of you guys read the Sean Howe book Marvel Comics The Untold Story. No it is it's it's the best.

[00:12:19] It just like going through like basically oral history of the whole history of like Marvel from the 30s to today but the sections on like the 60s section is basically just like they should just make it a TV

[00:12:31] show it's it's it's just mad men but they're making comics. And then but the 70s stuff is fun because it talks about you've got these guys like Jim Starlin the guy doing like the cosmic stuff and

[00:12:40] they're just be like yeah we would just like walk around we would just like you know take LSD walk around Manhattan at like 4 a.m. just generate a bunch of ideas like like a Ditko totally straight edge. The other guy came in afterwards.

[00:12:54] They were really going for it right. And so so I think Ben that's your jam. Well it's yeah I got it like got to check this like Adam Warlock and more like all that cosmic. Yes it's just funny.

[00:13:05] I truly think your father is the only person I have ever witnessed in any form saying Dr. Strange was my favorite as a kid right. It's just a thing that like you never fucking hear. And especially like Dr.

[00:13:19] Strange is one of the only Marvel characters of that tier arguably who didn't get his own fucking animated series in the 70s or the 90s. Only that really weird TV movie right. Yes that's about it. I've action TV movie.

[00:13:33] He would like did he did he might pop up on a spider man or something right like you make a guess but it was just like they were going like fucking Ghost Rider Silver Surfer's guys own show Fantastic Four have their own show spider like everyone. Dr.

[00:13:46] Strange was just never in that fucking. I will say I remember you know Griffin to bring up your favorite topic toys. When I was a kid like you know 90s Spider-Man Fox Kids cartoon. I think that changes in one episode and I had the action figure of Dr.

[00:14:01] Strange from like the Spider-Man animated line. And that it was a really good figure and I and he had a cool like rubber cape that you could bend into poses. Cool but yes it's like right. He's in like one episode.

[00:14:14] It certainly felt like every other character the Marvel would test at that point of being the titular role was either like has some notability or looks fucking cool. Sure like even Ant-Man where everyone was like now they're scraping the barrel.

[00:14:29] You're like Ant-Man exists as at least like a fucking joke. But also Ant-Man has a power that we all love right. We've all understood. I shrunk the kid. He was an original right. The doctor strange thing absolutely felt like is this breaking point.

[00:14:45] I remember saying to you we saw the trailer David and some in front of some fucking movie. It was the trailer for the first movie sort of semi self-serious like me. All that. And the final like money shot of the trailer was him standing in front of the

[00:15:00] fucking window with the cape. Right. And I said I can't believe that's the money shot that they put in like it's a mic to get the fans going. He's got the cape he's got the window and it fucking work.

[00:15:10] It was a hit and it only is when you step back and go like oh obviously fucking covid and director switch over and everything. Six years in between those two movies. And he has appeared in three other films. No more than four because he's in Thor Ragnarok right.

[00:15:27] Remember he gives him a big beer. Yes and he has the gloves. It's the one with the gloves. The one with the gloves and then he's in both Avengers films and then he's in Spider-Man No Way Home in a very seamless and smoothly integrated appearance. Right.

[00:15:42] It doesn't feel like them being like yeah I don't fucking know. One of the things about this fucking movie is it like has to be a doctor strange sequel. It has to be a No Way Home sequel. It has to be a WandaVision sequel. That's the thing.

[00:15:54] It's not really a No Way Home sequel at all. I think it really doesn't know a little bit. Right. Well because I guess the order flipped of what was supposed to be. There's just no discussion of No Way Home at all apart from the very vague

[00:16:05] like I'm aware of the multiverse like you know. Yeah he's like I recently dabbled in the multiverse. Yes. Do you know that because I fucking already complained about this thing in previous episodes. I mean I've been in fucking No Way Home where Ned suddenly becomes the greatest

[00:16:19] sorcerer overnight because his grandmother fucking read a book once or some shit. She's like what the grandma's like our family's kind of magical. Right. Yes. Yeah that was supposed to be fucking America Chavez.

[00:16:31] That was the entire point was she was going to be this movie and she's in training and then in the next one either it's like we need help we have to open portals find Peter Parker right. They go to pop up.

[00:16:42] Yeah because she fucking opens portal cares who fucking cares. There's gotta be an easier way to make these movies. Yes. Billion dollars can't be wrong right. I mean that's what they would always say but yes I don't.

[00:16:51] I would love to know and it would just be for my personal enjoyment. What on earth happened. And I'm sure Cove it is to blame and I'm sure the vagaries of actor scheduling and all this stuff is to blame the spider and thing also some like the Sony

[00:17:06] right. So anything where they have memories of the movie but how they had to untangle the weird chronology of this Spider-Man and WandaVision. Yes which in my head should just play in a different order. And I think maybe it was initially planned to feel it should go.

[00:17:21] Sorry let me get this right. This Spider-Man or this and then WandaVision should come after. Correct. And it's the biggest problem with this movie in an MCU sense. It is not a problem with this movie if you are just sitting down to watch

[00:17:36] a fun sci-fi horror movie in my opinion or fantasy horror. Yes but if in the larger sense of like why is Wanda behaving this way. It would just make a lot more sense if WandaVision is her reaction to this. Correct. Right. Correct.

[00:17:51] You she's looking for vision and other universes and then she fucking makes her own reality when she fully does the full break from reality. I am going to create my own universe rather than this being WandaVision being in between end game and this. Right.

[00:18:04] Look it is the single biggest issue with this movie is like this feels like. I don't think it's an issue with this movie. I think it's an issue with the MCU. I don't. It doesn't really bother me. Sure.

[00:18:17] I mean you have to say both I guess because this is part of a you know two dozen film series. Yes. I do think TV shows. This is very much a moment that exposes what you're saying. There has to be a fucking better way to make these movies.

[00:18:30] And it's one of those things where it's just like COVID fucked up every day and it makes it so clear where you're like even going to be the first show to come out. Right. Correct. And that wasn't it was gonna be Falcon and Winter Soldier which would

[00:18:42] have been a great sizzling way to kick it off. Right. And I think they fucking God what was the problem. I don't know but I wonder if it's because they didn't want to introduce Julia Louis Dreyfus until after Black Widow came out but then that end up

[00:18:55] getting flipped as well. It had been part of the problem. Yeah. I mean everything we're saying we just sound like abled fools. Lunatics. And it's disgusting. Yeah. Ben do you think this is interesting. Do I think this is interesting. Yeah. Let's keep going. Have you seen WandaVision? No.

[00:19:12] Have you seen you did you see Spider-Man colon No Way Home. I did on a plane. You saw it on a plane and you saw this film in theaters. I saw it in theaters. Oh I just remembered I have a story about my theater going experience. Oh boy.

[00:19:26] Did Doctor Strange appear. I yelled at someone. Teens. Teens. Youth. Oh my God. What were they doing. All right so here's the deal. Were they SPs? Yeah. They were Sneakys. I'm going to the theater. It's like a Tuesday. It's like pretty deep into the run of the movie.

[00:19:52] This is a bad site right. This is where you might get a rowdy or you know group. Not an audience but a few kids who are just here to hang. So I'm a little on edge. Okay. Ben's getting very animated.

[00:20:03] And so I go to Williamsburg Cinema which you know can be a hit or miss kind of experience. Yeah it's kind of just no frills you know movie house. There's no food to be eaten there. There's no reclining seats or anything like that. It's a movie place.

[00:20:19] They show the movie. I sit and unfortunately then shortly thereafter three 15 year olds sit right behind me. They start with the plastic bag of candy loose candy they have or something. They're going about with that and they're whispering to each other. And it's fine.

[00:20:38] I'm not like the kind of person where I want to feel like an old like guy shaking my fist at kids. You know what I mean. Sure. But at some point they just started talking actually about like oh yeah you know WandaVision. Did you watch.

[00:20:51] Oh they're just like just talking through Marvel lore. Yeah. And I get like listen you know I don't know how we can debate this. I though I lost it and I said shut the fuck up. Oh wow. You went right there.

[00:21:07] Here's the thing everyone else in the theater then also got scared and like there is a guy. Scared of you. Yeah.

[00:21:13] There was a guy kind of near them who like had been eating candy and all of a sudden he slowed down him grabbing the like chocolate covered almonds or whatever he had. Right. I felt so bad. I felt so bad.

[00:21:27] You were just a little on edge from the smoking and of course you were so scared of the multiverse. Yes I was. And I needed to really take it in. Yeah. Right. It was sort of a work assignment for you. Right. But here. All right.

[00:21:43] And I'll leave it to you guys because I don't want to take too much more time with this other than I just think sometimes people when they're talking at theaters they need to get yelled at. Yes. And I probably went a little too far.

[00:21:50] You got to first do the like hey can you be quiet or hey can you stop talking. Yeah. And then if you know if things don't change. You skip the first five steps. Hey. I just saw red. Yeah.

[00:22:04] I did apologize to them afterwards and at least you know I said I'm sorry. Okay. For overreacting. They just looked at their shoes and said uh uh and just walked away. But they did shout out. Don't talk to me. Have you watched WandaVision?

[00:22:17] I think WandaVision would make more sense after this movie. They say start on that. Shut the fuck up.

[00:22:24] I feel like force majeure global events right finally sort of like cast a wind across the house of cards that Feige has been so carefully assembling the puzzle pieces of all this movie made all the more complicated by now the TV shows having to like fit in between these things.

[00:22:42] Right. And it does just sort of show like this movie feels a little bit like a real Jenga tower of like do you maybe need to rethink this a little and start making these things a little more self-contained. Or just just slow down a little bit. Slow down.

[00:22:57] You know. I mean the thing that just is still so weird to me is that they made a Doctor Strange movie 2016. Yes. And it was very successful. Yeah.

[00:23:06] And then he finally gets sequel and he's a supporting character in his own movie where basically he has he doesn't really get the emotional arc in the movie. Not really. I mean he gets a very mild arc of sort of like. Right.

[00:23:22] They said you need to get over Rachel McAdams and I'm like he does. Yeah. But whatever whatever. Well yeah. I mean you get a proper movie.

[00:23:31] Also I feel like they've I don't want to say totally cracked it but they've gotten a little bit better at figuring out like how to like who is Cumberbatch Doctor Strange. Yes. This is the thing. I think I'm more pro this movie than the two of you.

[00:23:47] No no. Here's the thing. I am pro this movie. Right. But it is almost exclusively because of Sam Raimi directing it. Mr. Sam Raimi.

[00:23:57] I don't know that I can really be too pro MCU of late even though I've enjoyed movies like Shang-Chi and this because I'm with you Griffin where I'm sort of like I don't really know what the plan is anymore.

[00:24:10] It more feels like we'll do a movie X person will be in it. We'll we'll force some fucking thing in there to delight people. So the Illuminati thing sort of feels like that here. Right. Yeah. I mean we saw this movie together for the first time David.

[00:24:24] We did. We went to the press screening for whatever. I'm not trying to show off two months ago. Yeah. And I was saying to you like the Raimi stuff is really good. I just get so fucking bummed out by the Marvel shoe leather.

[00:24:38] And your response was I just don't even think about that stuff anymore. Like you were sort of like that's just white noise to me. I'm not judging it based on how well it does that stuff or not because all of that feels like jury duty. I mean right.

[00:24:49] Like as a comic book fan I'm always intrigued by it. But as a cinema fan I am not particularly. I'll say we all recently seen Jurassic World Dominion. I saw this a second time the day after I saw Dominion. You've seen Dominion. Oh I've been there.

[00:25:08] Which is in my opinion a very bad blockbuster. Yes. Bad movie. Yeah. But in Dominion like so like in Doctor Strange when it's time for the Illuminati to show up you'd certainly feel them. You know the script presses pause a little bit and it's kind of.

[00:25:24] But in Dominion it's even more egregious how like where it's like it's time for an action sequence. It's like OK pause. The dinosaurs. And you're just like is there. Is this is that even with anything in the movies like you like dinosaurs don't you. You pig. Come on.

[00:25:42] Look it's chasing. I'm enjoying this and I'm like this doesn't you know it truly feels like the movie grinds to a halt for any action. Yes. No.

[00:25:51] I mean this movie feels to me like fucking Sam Raimi is the one in front of the subway car holding onto fucking 20 webs attached to buildings. A little bit. Right. Certainly there were reshoots and there's all kinds of like Jesus what's going on with this movie.

[00:26:05] Like trying to like fit into the demands of a Marvel movie and trying to make his own thing and like. And the weight of reactivating his passion. First film in nine years. Right. Have another hit.

[00:26:15] This is also what's so funny about it because you know you look at all the interviews that he does for this movie and to be clear this is like this is the case in every interview he's ever done. Yeah. It's true. He is like this always.

[00:26:26] He's a good salesman. People like you know I was so excited he was finally back. So many people were so excited.

[00:26:33] You know and before the movie came out I remember people like on Twitter like getting very nervous like because they'd be sharing these clips of him talking to people would ask him like so did you really like try to put like you know your own like style into this Sam Raimi movie.

[00:26:46] And he was just like no you know I'm just trying to make it like a you know like a good solid crowd pleasing chapter in in the Marvel series and just do another episode for them and make the fans happy.

[00:26:56] And it sounds like he like he just like went in to make it totally anonymously. That combined with all the reshoot stories and shit were just like foggy just squish him. This can be Oz the Great and powerful. And then you're like no he's actually just polite.

[00:27:09] In the interview. It's the same thing if you look at like 2002 interviews and obviously Spider-Man is a Sam Raimi movie and every interview he's just like no I was just trying to like honor like Stan Lee and Steve Ditko and do what they would have done.

[00:27:22] He seems embarrassed about his thing. Yes. Like he never wants to acknowledge that he's like up to his old tricks.

[00:27:29] He's been joking about it like for all these fucking months but even as far back as Darkman he's like it was really time for me just put the camera down and step back. Take my little box of tools and put it under the shelf.

[00:27:39] Just tell a good adult story. Right. And then you watch the movie and you're like what is he talking about? And the only ones where it's actually true are those you know we this is the end of our miniseries.

[00:27:49] We talked about those mid 90s dramas and like he even you know he sounds like ashamed of himself in those press tours right where he's like I really want to grow up.

[00:27:59] And now it's more back to the just like he's a nice guy in a suit who's like well Marvel's really good enterprise and people have fun at them. But I remember Patrick I think we were hanging out when the story broke.

[00:28:10] We went to some movie and then we were at Schnippers afterwards. Yes. I will say Griffin. And laughing at Schnippers. Schnippers baby. Look when you see a movie. What a weird like fast food reference that no one's going to get. We were fucking seeing that.

[00:28:24] 40th and 8th baby. Times Square movie. In New York at the AMC 25. You go to Schnippers after that. That's what happens. Diarrhea. But it's fun. It's all organized. You know it comes it's very timely. Yeah. Right. It's on a schedule.

[00:28:44] Exactly. They have a bunch of like private restrooms there you put in the code. Another thing I love about that place. Individual stalls.

[00:28:50] Yeah. No actually Griffin to me the funny thing about inviting me on this episode is that I feel like this movie kind of represents the entire history of our friendship. That's true.

[00:29:02] Because we first the first time we met was you did an appearance in a video I made. I basically I was like I'm gonna do this three part thing and say literally every take I have about the MCU and then never talk about it.

[00:29:15] Put it in a box. So we met by and you did a whole conversation in that and then skip ahead to I think it was like I don't know a couple of years later. And then we had gone to see Weathering with you. Right. And then that movie.

[00:29:31] No it's a movie I like a movie whose ending kind of baffled us. It's a very bizarre movie. Yeah. It's like the ending is why I like what is it saying at the end here.

[00:29:43] Right. No it's fuck you kind of is what I kind of which I love. It's not a responsibility to fix. I'm gonna turn into a cloud bitch. Yeah go ahead.

[00:29:53] Oh yeah so we went to Snippers and then what happened was and I actually I want to get this part on the record. You went to the bathroom. I checked my phone and suddenly a bunch of people texted me like like do you see the news.

[00:30:05] Ramy directing Doctor Strange 2 and you come back and I say hey did you see the news. And you say yeah Kirk Douglas died. And this happened at the exact second. And my mind was going a mile a minute just dealing with the Ramy news.

[00:30:19] Yeah. I just went oh yeah sure whatever. But no no Sam Ramy. And so I would like to apologize to the estate of Kirk Douglas. He was 103 years old. It's OK.

[00:30:29] I like threw away that information so quickly because all I want to talk about is like why is Sam Ramy now after like nine years. He's got to direct a movie again and it's a sequel to a superhero movie.

[00:30:40] Couldn't get two hours only talking about why is this happening. Why is this happening. And also like I didn't think that was a move they had in the playbook. Well if they haven't gone or I think it is there now.

[00:30:55] I think that's Feige's latest thing where it used to be he would hunt for the big stars. Like I was always that people who would never do a movie. Right. And like sometimes he gets the Robert Redford. Sometimes he doesn't get the Joaquin Phoenix.

[00:31:06] Right. He like tried to get. Yes. Jolie. He had like his crown jewels like people who you'd never imagine would ever do a super. And now I feel like he's more thirsty for the like what if I can convince an A tier director.

[00:31:17] That's the fucking story on Fantastic Four now. Yeah. Like he liked Sam Ramy had like a sure hand and did not he didn't have to like look over his shoulder on every shot.

[00:31:25] Which is funny because the response from some Marvel fans is why didn't you reign Sam Ramy in. Right. No it's so. God this. This. Everything about this movie is bizarre and it like its reputation as a cultural object and how it gets to this point whatever.

[00:31:40] But obviously Scott Derrickson writes and directs the first movie right. Yeah that is like he's got more of a hand on that film than I feel like a lot of directors on those first movies. Also one thing I'm in a James Gunn. Yeah. Co-writer.

[00:31:54] Truly like they fucking were with that thing every step of the way. That's all much. I think that's the last Marvel the only Marvel movie in like 12 years to shoot anything on film. Yeah. Because Derrickson likes that.

[00:32:06] I mean it's also it's that movie is fairly light on you know crossover. It's pretty self-contained. Like I don't remember much of anything in that regard. Right. That movie kind of feels. The Thor beer thing. Is that a post credit scene? But then they reuse it.

[00:32:21] Right. No that thing I kind of like about Dr. Strange is a lot of it plays like this is how Sony would have made this movie in 2004.

[00:32:30] Right. And it's like you know they had like some John I can't say his name right space space space like sort of spec script that they were working off and it does feel like right a pretty down the middle origin story kind of thing.

[00:32:44] It's got a fun ending. Yes he does the time loop thing you're like oh that's clever. Yeah. Dormammu. The effects are cool. It's one of the only Marvel movies that was like actually benefited from 3D.

[00:32:54] But at the same time it's sort of like oh man McAdams is here with doing nothing. You got Mads Mikkelsen as a villain who's kind of a nobody. You have an entire movie just teamed up. Tilda Swinton. Chihuahtel. Controversy. Yes.

[00:33:07] That like feels like a bit of a self-owned on their part even though she's like obviously compelling in the movie. But it.

[00:33:12] It's like you're like Chihuahetel's there and you're sort of like it's them being like well he'll be villain number two and then by the time two rolls right they're like we got like eight things to do. He can show up. I mean don't even bother me right.

[00:33:23] Fucking crazy. But yeah. But yes they do their fucking Feige keynote you know next phase thing where they announce all the fucking things they announced it's Doctor Strange in the multiverse of madness. It was a comic con right.

[00:33:37] I think I was at Comic Con when this was happening. One of those you know. Yes. Powerpoint. But it was when they were outlining and then WandaVision and Wanda will be in this and all the fucking shit.

[00:33:46] And Derrickson comes out and he's like I want this to be Marvel's first real horror movie. Right. And fucking Feige has some chuck where he's like don't make it too scary. So then when Derrickson quits it was like that's weird that's surprising.

[00:34:00] Do you think Feige freaked out about the horror thing. And that was sort of the thought for a long time. Derrickson has recently done some interviews where he said like not to get too dark about it but that he had like unresolved trauma from his childhood.

[00:34:13] He was in therapy. It sort of bubbled up and he had a breakthrough as he was developing it and he was like I can't do a blockbuster. I need to work on myself. And that the black phone is kind of the movie of him processing his childhood.

[00:34:24] I didn't know what this at all. I mean this is very recent. He's like there was no animus. There was no pushback on what I was trying to do. I quit.

[00:34:33] I know it seems insane to people but I was just like I'm I'm finally working through shit that I've been suppressing for 30 years. Oh I totally assumed this was Marvel being like you have to like put in all of these things and make what you want to.

[00:34:45] Cargill has said that they that their script was not what Marvel. I'm sure you know like that Marvel wanted you know something that's tied to a bunch of things and all that and whatever.

[00:34:57] Like imagine there's a world where they could have stuck with it and you know found a middle ground with them. And instead they were like let's go to the black phone and you know that's right. That's all cool.

[00:35:09] But that whole thing where you're just like because the thought was oh he wanted to do his shit. He's coming off of having done this movie successfully and foggy was like no your place to then go to Rami. You're just like is this just for hire.

[00:35:22] Does he want Rami. Does he want those fingerprints especially because Feige was like working at Marvel during Spider-Man. You know it was no of course he I'm sure he has a lot of respect for Rami for that reason. They knew each other like back in the day.

[00:35:36] That's when Feige was the eager like Avi Rod's eager assistant who's like one of the comics that says this. That's how I would imagine younger Feige. Let's actually let me I got the dossier.

[00:35:47] Let me let me give you a little bit of Rami you know in between Oz and this. The nine years with Sam. Yeah. First he's working on something called Earp Saints for Sinners which is based on a comic book.

[00:36:02] OK that maybe eventually no I guess it never got turned into anything but like a supernatural Wyatt Earp. It's a yeah it's like wider fighting outlaws in like sort of post apocalyptic Vegas. OK. I don't know. I mean it sounds like kind of a lot of things. OK.

[00:36:20] Then he signs on for a war movie called The Outpost based on a Jake Tapper nonfiction book about like soldiers in Afghanistan or whatever CNN guy. The CNN guy himself. Yes made it did.

[00:36:37] It was made by Rod Lurie with Scott Eastwood and Laundry Jones and Orlando Bloom and went. Yeah. David pointed at me because laundry boy. Yeah.

[00:36:49] This is the most fascinating thing about this period and we're going to keep exploring this but just like he was throwing out so many different things where it felt clear like he doesn't know what he's right.

[00:36:59] He's kind of seeing waiting to see what you want to do a fact based war movie does launch a new potential franchise. Right. The next thing is something called Love May Fall which is based on a book by Matthew Quick who's the guy who wrote Silver Linings playbook.

[00:37:15] Yes that was going to be at Sony and that's more of like a straightforward like big old drama like a lady has a meltdown and moves to Jersey and goes on a quest with her high school teacher and there's a heroin addict.

[00:37:30] I don't know like Emma Stone was OK attached. And then it fizzled and has never been made. Then he was going to remake a prophet.

[00:37:39] Yes we mentioned that briefly while I think Dennis Lehane the Mystic River novelist wrote some sort of adaptation of it that was going to be at Sony now it's at Paramount. It's it's for now with Russell Crowe.

[00:37:53] I think I'm not sure if it's begun filming but Russell Crowe is definitely attached. I think it's a music video director now doing. Yeah. Andrew on Blue and I think Stephen James from like Beale Street. Correct. Race has been attached. I mean it sounds kind of cool.

[00:38:10] It does. A prophet is pretty remakeable. Yeah. And that was like that was a fascinating announcement. That was the one where I was like oh that's interesting. Yeah yeah yeah. And I guess was it more pre Oz that he tries to do King Killer Chronicles and Warcraft.

[00:38:25] Right right right right. So there's more. I mean there's a lot. No King Killer Chronicles is in here. OK. Something called World War Three that was a WB movie based on like a nonfiction novel about like the future predictions for the 21st century. Like a fun. Yeah.

[00:38:43] Like who the fuck would ever want to watch that. Forget that. Then something called Stormfall. OK. Set in a heist during a tornado. I mean that sounds kind of cool. Yeah. So is it like Hurricane Heist but. Yeah. Yeah. Tornado Heist. Much better. No further stuff.

[00:39:00] Then an untitled Bermuda Triangle movie. Another kind of disaster movie that Skydance is working on has never really. Ryan Reynolds apparently was circling that one. I don't know.

[00:39:13] Scott Derrickson actually came aboard at some point and that's still kind of percolating and Chris Evans will supposedly be in it. OK. Shrug. Then King Killer Chronicles. That's like fantasy books right. I've never read those. That. Oh right. The Name of the Wind.

[00:39:32] And now I think that's on TV. I want to say Showtime maybe. Yes. So it's a show. I think it got turned into a show. Maybe not. And then The Last of Us. But wasn't that also supposed to be with Lin-Manuel Miranda.

[00:39:45] Wasn't the whole thing that he was going to produce it because it's his favorite. It's his favorite. Right. And he was going to he was on a call. I don't know but it has not whatever. Right. Raimi has left that project.

[00:39:58] And then The Last of Us which is now finally going to be an HBO show. Yeah. But that was going to be a movie and Raimi was the first choice for that. And I think that's at Sony as well. And that got went into development hell.

[00:40:14] So just like he clearly is like I don't know. I don't know. But it's all genre mostly genre stuff with a couple more kind of things. And a couple of the genre things sound a little more sober and grounded.

[00:40:27] And nothing I guess Kingkiller would be the closest but like nothing too franchisey. No. Warcraft is the only one I remember where it felt like it was far along when he left. Yeah. Right. And it was sort of like I don't think my vision matches with theirs.

[00:40:44] But they were in sort of you know serious development. I mean the other thing is somewhere along the line maybe it was earlier pre Oz drag me to hell era. He gets Sony to get the shadow rights for him again.

[00:41:00] But at that moment it was sort of like oh he might produce this and not direct this. Sure. And a crazy thing now to think about is when that's announced in like 2009 or whatever. I remember thinking you can't do another shadow movie. It's only been like 14 years. Sure.

[00:41:15] And now it's like you know of course they could do one. Like the moment a movie bombs they immediately announce who's going to reboot it. Yeah. Of course he's produced many films through Ghost House. You got Evil Dead. You got Poltergeist. Yeah.

[00:41:28] That Poltergeist remake anyone ever saw that Sam Rockwell's right. No one did. Was it Gil Keenan who directed that. Sounds right. Yeah. I never saw it. Don't Breathe. Recent The Grudge remake big not hit. Yep. Something called The Unholy. I don't even know what that is.

[00:41:44] I don't remember that one. Don't Breathe 2 and Crawl which is. We saw that together. We saw that together. That's Alexandra. Yeah. That's an alligator movie. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty fun. So good. He also produced Rake. Remember Rake with Greg Kinnear on TV. Rake with the steak on his face.

[00:42:06] Of course Ash versus. Yeah. Rake is a remake of an Australian show. Yeah. My parents got into that at some point. Rake puts a steak on his face in the Australian when he puts a shrimp on the Barbie. That was the big difference. Exactly.

[00:42:20] He's got a big shrimp on his Barbie face. It is one of my favorite moments in the history of this podcast that you somehow Rake came up and you and I said you know Rake with the steak on the face. Right.

[00:42:30] I think it was in our As Good as It Gets episode and Gether was like you are the only two guys who would ever say. I remember that. You know Rake with the steak on his face. But like that's what you think of because like. Absolutely.

[00:42:41] I've been watching. You're the third guy. If you're ever scrolling through like IMDB for like Sam Raimi's directing credits there's that one in the middle where it's just like what is this. What the fuck is this. He directed the pilot. Right. Yes. And like ubiquitous subway ads.

[00:42:58] He obviously also does the pilot for Ash versus Evil Dad. He does. Right. And I remember that they were like it was kind of a nightmare because I think the blockbusters broke him and it would be like seven hours trying to pick the right knife.

[00:43:08] And I don't think on set when you're there when it's just a blockbuster. So it's like it's probably been a long time since he had to work to a schedule. Yes. Not to say that he's like some insanely but like when you read in the dossier where he's

[00:43:16] like simple plan we only had 60 days or whatever and I'm like oh that's like the last small movie he made. Yeah. And that was a lot of time. Right. How long did Drag Me to Hell take you. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

[00:43:32] I don't know. I think it was like two weeks. That's a good question. And I don't remember. No. And the other thing I hear is that movie went over budget and he put his own money into it. Right.

[00:43:46] I mean I just listened to your episode that came up. Yeah right. So even that which felt like oh he worked on a tighter it's like apparently that one got out of control even a little bit. But yes it was evil that thing. He only does the pilot.

[00:43:58] He had no involvement after that. I think that was really like a Bruce Leigh. I'm in favor. budget allotted of all the other episodes and more time and is a longer episode. They

[00:44:07] were like he went like a month over schedule like it was like the rest of the production was trying to work big. Yeah I guess. Drag me to help being sort of the outlier but still right. But it is that thing a lot

[00:44:20] of guys we've talked about in the show and some of the big examples of guys we haven't talked about like Peter Jackson or whatever where it's like he can't go back to small

[00:44:26] again right. You wonder if part of him signing on for Doctor Strange is just like I need someone to give me 200 million dollars right. I can't go back to bootstrapping it. Now I'll

[00:44:37] say that JJ in his dossier says that he could not find any evidence that WandaVision was actually ever supposed to come out after this. Correct. Like that has been erroneously kind of rumored but he doesn't think right. Thought that after seeing the movie because

[00:44:49] it would have made more sense dramatically. It would have made more sense dramatically also. But I think I Doctor Strange was initially going to be in WandaVision. Right. And then never came to pass. Maybe COVID reasons. Was it going to be Doctor Strange all along? That

[00:45:01] would have been stupid. I think honestly I think from what I remember like it was more them saying like we realized it would be dumb for him to show up. Yeah. Like this is about

[00:45:11] her. But I went back to that the press conference announcement thing and they clearly outline WandaVision and then they're like and Wanda will also then appear in Doctor Strange in the multiverse. Right right right right. She was certainly always attached to this. Spider-Man

[00:45:25] is the one that got majorly flipped. Right. Where this should have come out a year before Spider-Man. So yes. Ramy of course announced February 5th 2020 that fateful day of Kirk's Douglas's death and Patrick and Griffin's viewing of Weathering With You. And truly

[00:45:42] yes we just spiraled for like an hour and a half. Our burgers were long done. Oh yeah. Just going like what does this fucking mean? Is this like is this is this a concession?

[00:45:53] Is this like an admission of defeat from Sam Raimi that he just has to fucking. The thing that confused us the most is that he by all accounts did not have a great time

[00:46:01] making Spider-Man 3 because of studio interference. Yes yes. And then did not seem to have a great time making Oz because of studio interference. And then finally after almost a decade decides to make a movie again with the most controlling of all the most notorious like notey like

[00:46:17] operation that exists although Marvel is at least known for they produce things that work and people tend to have an OK time making these movies like when they actually do it. It's rare that people are like absolutely burning the bridge as they leave. Like it's

[00:46:31] not like the Justice League debacle where like Warner Brothers clearly like swung in halfway through that movie and was like this has to be something completely different. Yeah right. You know like that was the most crazy example. Yes. And also just the weird

[00:46:42] thing of like he's working with the studio that has basically built their whole model off of like kind of the template that he had established. Yes. Like way earlier it's like yeah well he doesn't need to do this. No. But also toned it down so much. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:46:58] Michael Waldron who wrote Loki the TV show used to work for Dan Harmon. So he knows from multi versus right. We actually there's no I wanted to bring I think you may listen to

[00:47:08] this podcast really. Not sure he follows me on Twitter. Wow. Mike. So I've been wondering with this movie and recently like is the influence that Dan Harmon has had on the MCU seems like a lot. Yes. It seems really wild because like I feel like it begins with

[00:47:27] you know he's brought in to do like punch up on the first Doctor Strange right. And then there's this thing where obviously like community a lot of his writers will like for

[00:47:36] me to chaos theory it has like it kind of introduces like darkest timeline and into just like a like pop culture like lexicon for like this era. And then you have the thing where like Chris McKenna like main writer on community writes the Spider-Man movies and it's like

[00:47:53] one of the at least one Ant-Man. Yeah. I think maybe both. Yeah. And then Michael Waldron from Rick and Morty. Yes. Does Loki and this Jeff Loveness was writer on Rick and Morty and the Wasp in quantum mania. I mean three. Yeah. Yeah. I think Jeff definitely listens

[00:48:13] to this podcast. Hello Jeff. Jessica Gow who's the showrunner on She-Hulk is another Rick and Morty person fucking obviously the Russos right. Sure who directed much of community right. And that's everyone by all admissions. It's like they got hired because of paintball

[00:48:30] too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Look you're right. I think it's because Dan Harmon's been always been very good at like translating very nerdy comic book thought into like funny entertaining it's funny that he's just kind of become a farm team now for like they just pluck. Yes.

[00:48:45] And also you know working for someone who's in charge and will get his hands into your script to move everything around and like so being able to deal with that maybe that's similar to being able to do with Feige although Harmon and Feige seem very different disposition

[00:49:00] wise like you know I don't think Kevin Feige like works insane like night hours or like growing a giant beard. Yeah. Like Feige seems like more like a guy who wakes up at 630 in the morning and is like all right I got 18 meetings today maybe. Whereas Harmon goes

[00:49:13] to sleep at six o'clock in the morning has a vodka IV drip at all time. Yeah. No it's it's it's fascinating. But Loki's another one where I feel like this was maybe at some

[00:49:26] supposed to be pre Loki. I can't tell you that. I couldn't tell you. I just simply don't know. It's a weird thing of like the way they've rolled out like rules and information about

[00:49:36] the multiverse. Yes. Because when they announced this movie like I just fully assumed that oh he's going to go into just weird psychedelic dimension. Yeah. Absolutely scary portals in the sky and is that crafty and fucking. Yeah. Because that's what he does in the comics.

[00:49:51] And it never occurred to me that it would be like to like you know a branching timeline movie universe is like that kind of multiverse. Yes. And then it's just kind of been this thing where

[00:50:02] it's like OK so Loki establishes like variants. Yes. And so you can have like you know Richard E. Grant's Loki and female Loki and stuff like that. And then like no way home establishes

[00:50:16] the rule of OK what if we can go to what if like people from other franchises show up in this thing and now and it's like it all counts. Yeah. And so I'm like if this was supposed to like come before

[00:50:28] no way home. Yeah. What was it going to do. Was it going to not have it. Was it going to have like no Patrick Stewart or prison scheme. Fucking no because I was everything with

[00:50:37] all the rewrites or reshoots and all the stories and whatever you're like I bet fucking post no home. They're going in and they're adding eight bazillion cameos to this. I bet you're gonna see

[00:50:47] fucking there were a lot of wild rumors about this movie. Yes. Tom Cruise one being the biggest which you can Google it's the yeah he was gonna be what's the superior Iron Man. Iron Man that

[00:50:57] Emily Blunt was gonna be Black Widow that they were gonna do sort of the alternate casting people people who almost played a lot of that which sort of sounds like fun jokey shit. Yeah. Like I'm not

[00:51:07] saying that that would have been good or bad like right. And then there was like are they gonna do Edward Norton. Are they going to do Nick Cage ghost rider. Norton would be a true coup.

[00:51:16] That was like both Banner and Norton. Yeah. But the normal would have been fucking bring back Ghost Rider. They should bring back. He has a flaming chain. He's a flaming skull. I'm more

[00:51:28] of a motorcycle. They haven't cast a new one. They do have a cage. There was yes. No there is a ghost rider in Robbie Ray. No no but he's a different right. They don't have a job. We should

[00:51:39] have like a buzzer I can hit it's like all right enough enough for me to nerdy to nerdy to nerdy. What I do know is that they threw everything out. Rami and Waldron had this like it's you've got

[00:51:50] to start in like three months. Right. And they say they like they just tossed away the script and started a new and I believe it by and large. The thing I remember hearing is that I know

[00:52:00] Waldron was the one coming up with the Illuminati and all that like he was the one which is a comic book concept. The thing just to mildly correct the thing I heard Rami saying in an interview

[00:52:09] was they were like set date have to start not enough time to redevelop the script. And then the pandemic was like OK you know what actually you can get your hands in there and you can

[00:52:20] restart everything now. I guess I mean well I mean let me see what else is in this dossier. COVID. Right. COVID did eventually push everything back to but the original thing was February

[00:52:31] announcement may start day. Yeah. And COVID push it to November. Right. And so they just like wrote it on Zoom. Yes. And you know I think they had a nice time. They seem fond of each other Rami

[00:52:46] and Waldron. Rami said we had a deadline to start shooting with a script that I didn't have anything to do with and everyone had to jump in and start over. It was very rushed and panicked. And for us

[00:52:58] the COVID delays were a blessing because it got us more time to work on the script. And you know I've really appreciated these interviews that Sam Rami has given where he's like they're like

[00:53:11] do you love the MCU. And he's like I saw like Black Panther Iron Man. That's one of them right. You know like where he clearly was like I watched some videos. Like he said they showed me the relevant

[00:53:21] parts of WandaVision. I watched like a highlights reel. Right. Right. When did WandaVision air. It was like January 21. I mean I imagine there was there was not actually WandaVision for him to watch yet. Right. No no because this it was WandaVision straight January 2021. It was truly

[00:53:39] a thing where like because WandaVision started filming pre pandemic then was on ice for a long time. Then they finished it. And then I truly believe it's like Elizabeth Olsen wrapped on WandaVision on a Friday started on Doctor Strange on a Monday. And then two weeks into Doctor

[00:53:54] Strange COVID outbreak London case is bad. The movie's on ice for another two months. Can I just say it's funny to me that this is the first main feed Marvel movie you've ever done. And it's wild.

[00:54:06] And it's not that wild. I know but yeah yeah it's just because we've done 27 Marvel. We did all the phases one to three. But also clearly this means oh we've got to spend an hour plus just discussing

[00:54:19] like the studio stuff. I think that the Marvel of it all Patrick's right. We got to talk about the movie. Yeah I think this movie is so interesting when you compare it to Spider-Man 3.

[00:54:30] Where Spider-Man 3 by Sam Raimi. Yes Spider-Man 3 for me top to bottom feels like a Sam Raimi movie. Every single second of that movie feels like it has his fingerprints his house style but some of

[00:54:41] it is just not well done. Right. It's Rush. It doesn't all hang together right. You can correct it's not like there's scenes where you're like oh boy like right. What's this anonymous garbage. Absolutely. And you're like this is sort of Raimi but he can't find the right pitch.

[00:54:54] Even though like you can listen to our episode like Topher Grace talks about being like I was on ninth unit. You know it was a whole. But it feels like tip to tail Raimi and the things that

[00:55:05] people will mock like the dance sequence or the handling of venom or whatever. Right. Feels like Raimi having resentment for the things the studio is pushing on him and doing them in the most Raimi

[00:55:16] possible which then upset people. Right. Whereas this movie it's like he's trying to both show he can play by the rules do the thing that fits into their model and then find his personality. There

[00:55:26] are scenes in this that feel completely anonymous. Watching this for a second time I would go through cycles of just being like I'm so fucking bored. And I felt this the first time watching it too.

[00:55:36] I mean I don't know how you feel but I would say especially in the sort of first chunk. Yes. Which is the most concerned with like setting all the pieces out. I would feel like every 10 minutes there'd be an alternation for me and I'd like something

[00:55:47] would happen and I'd be like fuck. Yes there's the guy. There's the guy. Right. But it feels like in the scenes where it's like Raimi you just have to do this. He's not fighting against it

[00:55:57] anymore. No. But you're right there's not a lot to it. He's picking his battles. Well like so like what's the stuff that he like you know the stuff to me that feels a little anonymous or what you

[00:56:10] know is like the first action sequence of Schumacher. I think it's the most action sequence in the isn't it not. I just do that. It's not technically it's like Gargantua. It's Schumacher.

[00:56:26] They do not name this the thing. Yeah. Technically Marvel guys excuse me I have the comic. Okay. That has the original Schumacher story that I've been reading recently. Schumacher rules. He's one of my favorite Marvel characters. He's like an evil demon. He's an evil eye tentacle man. But

[00:56:41] but that originates is inside the ancient one's head and it's it has. But like his true form tentacle thing. But like this is just a tentacle monster. Yes. Look look guys look they don't name

[00:56:56] the monster in the movie. Uh huh. In the press notes and I think what you know like it is called Gargantua which is a name they made up because Schumacher writes are owned by I have to look

[00:57:07] this up not Marvel for some insane heroic signatures. What? Remember how Schumacher is a playable character in Marvel versus Capcom. Yes. A really good character one of my mains fucking great character. But just of all the choices how did they land on that one? Because

[00:57:25] he's cool because he's different. I think they were just trying to find like are there like other kind of like fighting types we can imagine that's not just like punch. Oh yeah.

[00:57:33] In his current zone I sometimes see him go into where he's like his eyes are darting back and forth. It's like watching a tennis match. His hand is slowly curling into a fist

[00:57:42] and he's like do I need to fucking noogie these guys? Am I about to say shut the fuck up? It's not only confused but you're also like should I be bullying them more?

[00:57:51] It's one of those weird things you know how Marvel used to do like Conan comics and stuff like that for whatever reason heroic signatures own some sort of like little bit of Marvel comics

[00:58:01] characters. It's like the fucking Rom space night shit. But I just appreciate that they weren't like we're not going to do Schumacher because we don't know. So we'll do a monster that looks

[00:58:13] exactly like it but it's not it. Like this monster looks so fucking good. It looks great. Especially like watching again this time. The first time watching the movie I truly felt like

[00:58:25] I was so nervous about like are we about to watch Oz the Great and Powerful? Sure. Because if it felt that anonymous and that he was that drowned out in a style I was going to be so fucking

[00:58:34] depressed. Sure. That I only watching the second time was I like God I was fucking white knuckling that entire time. It's sure. I think the Schumacher action is really fun and I like the

[00:58:46] end of the eyeball getting poked out. I mean with like the I mean also one thing that I just appreciated about that is like you know we've seen a lot of you know Marvel battles in like

[00:58:57] cities and stuff like that. And I feel like in this like you know the shots hold a second or two longer than Marvel's usually do. The compositions are a little cleaner the actors moving like geography. Yes. Sometimes that is not true. It's not always true. In the opening

[00:59:14] one I think that's like pretty clean. In the crucial sequences it's true. Right. The action I was trying to think of that's a little more anonymous is say like when Wanda attacks the you know what's it called? The Commitage. Yeah. And she's like shooting lasers and there's a

[00:59:28] shield. That feels a little bit more like eh the B team can do this. It's the Rainy Pick is battle shit. He's like. That's what I'm saying. How many of these fights can I get? It's a couple

[00:59:36] minutes and then we're into Wanda going through a mirror and reassembling her body and all that where you're like oh yeah this is fun. Every ten minutes you'll like fucking the other metaphor to

[00:59:46] steal from Ramy's visuals that I think of fucking Toby on the front of the train just trying to hold everything together right. And then the other thing is like this movie feels like the

[00:59:56] fucking zombie Doctor Strange just being like I refuse to die. I'm whatever body I need to take I will find some way to will this back into being my fucking movie. But like that opening sequence

[01:00:06] the cold open defender strange America Chavez I was like jumping on and cookier and jumping on blocks and I understand whatever I will say. Have you seen 3D? No it's actually wanted. I was so

[01:00:19] it's funny when you guys it's kind of hard to see a movie in 3D like it's the opposite of this even 4D X will be like we have one 3D showing a day the rest of time it's 3D. Here's the thing

[01:00:29] Lincoln and you won't believe which one we drop. Yeah I mean Lincoln Square on IMAX it was IMAX 3D. Wow that's cool. That's where I saw it. I was like I was very surprised like a friend on the big

[01:00:38] ass. Yeah like oh you know I don't really 6 p.m. opening night or whatever is funny while you guys wrote the press screening I had like like I knew multiple people who were at that press screening

[01:00:47] and I you guys are white knuckling it. I'm sitting there just like waiting for the response being like please let it be OK. And then Griffin you you and multiple friends were just like it feels

[01:00:57] like you can see Ramy there. I was like all I fucking care about fine. But I will say 3D post conversion obviously but also the first movie I've seen released this way in a while. I think

[01:01:09] like I think Infinity War was the last time they did like the IMAX will be the next 3D and honestly like it's pretty solid like like like yeah I mean that's the thing like that that opening action

[01:01:24] scene when like there you know with like the buses like flying at the camera and he cuts it in half and stuff like that visual style is really well suited for 3D even the opening scene which you

[01:01:33] know just like them running around through like whatever dimension in 3D it's like cameras flying through stuff stuffs moving by the camera it's like it feels like it was designed that way. Doctor

[01:01:43] Strange and Ant-Man are the two Marvel franchises that actually work in 3D. Very given to it. Yeah right yeah I mean the first movie I saw in 3D and I remember looking pretty good. Yeah pretty

[01:01:52] fucking good and the portals and the shifting all that stuff like works well the same way. First Doctor Strange would be the last movie I saw in 3D in fact. Really? Yeah because it used to

[01:02:00] be at the press screenings they would be like here are your glasses I mean I guess we saw like the Gemini Man in 3D. Yes right or whatever you know like things like. Did you see Alita Battle

[01:02:09] Angel in 3D? I saw Alita Battle Angel in 3D so that's okay so there you go but like the last time where it was like take your plastic real 3D glass you know not the very nice Dolby you know glasses

[01:02:19] like you know but anyway. Yeah David. Doctor Strange yeah he you know in the opening sequence a different Doctor Strange and there's America Chavez and they're being chased by. Do we talk about America Chavez? Sure let's talk about it. Because America Chavez you know essentially like

[01:02:35] the human MacGuffin of the movie. Right. Is um you know obviously like she's a pretty recent character in the comics. Right. I think. Yeah I mean at this point she's like 10 years old but

[01:02:44] yes. Right I mean but Doctor Strange is like I don't know he's like 60 years old. But the other thing was like uh correct me if I'm wrong about this but like I thought she was even more recent

[01:02:54] and it was like she had like one appearance like 10 plus years ago and then she was sort of revived like five years. Well so here's the timeline with her is I think she first showed up in this

[01:03:05] like mini series that I think Joe Kelly. Joe Casey. Joe Casey. Man of Action guys. No yeah called like Vengeance. Called Vengeance. I think she just popped in that. Right. But the thing that I know

[01:03:15] the character from is she's one of the team in the Kieran Gill and Jamie McKelvey Young Avengers. Which was 2013. Yeah. Okay. Which is like a great series but like she is a completely different character in this movie like her in that series is she's basically kind of like

[01:03:30] grumpy just like like look how like it's doesn't is sick of everyone's bullshit. Yeah. Kid Loki there and she's just like when he talks too much he throws him through a wall. Sure. Like that

[01:03:39] like her that's her whole vibe and it's like clearly that you know. She does make star-shaped portals. That is cool. That is her power. Yeah. But like the you know you can see like in these

[01:03:51] movies you know with like Cassie Lang and stuff like that they're like OK we're building like this new generation of like the younger heroes that can like be funny thing where you're like what's Feige's big picture plan now. And it's like six different teams. There's clearly the

[01:04:05] young team. There's the Thunderbolts bad guys team. Yeah right. But this is a funny one to me because and this has nothing to do with the actress is it Sochi Gomez. Yes I believe so.

[01:04:18] Yeah sure. But I like I don't know who this character is really in this. So yeah I was like they it's not just that she doesn't resemble the comic book version. It's just that like usually

[01:04:30] Marvel's pretty good at like introducing a new likable character that you want to follow. She's plucky. She's plucky but like you know what I got for you. But also sad like sad. She's an interdimensional traveler from where her parents are gone or whatever.

[01:04:43] Right. Yeah. It's like it's true. A couple big choices. It's like what's what's the decision here. What's the take here. Like we'll get back to this. She's not bucky. She's not bucky. She is

[01:04:57] she's it's a perfectly she's she's charming but like it you're right Patrick that it's sort of like I'm not walking out of there being like I can't wait for more. No it's like you know like

[01:05:09] I don't think anyone knows. Maybe the take could have been she'd be like more like a tramp like it like an interdimensional train. You mean like a sort of like an urchin like a little

[01:05:19] like riding the rail kid. Yeah right. She has like a little bundle of her shoulder. Maybe like a hat that's sort of the lid is sort of popping off. Right. Like it looks

[01:05:28] like a can opener opened it up. She's like ride like a boxcar through dimensions. Yes absolutely. Let's talk about she's got kind of like a jean jacket. That's right. Yeah. These writers listening guys you know where to find me.

[01:05:45] The doctor strange characterization right. The constantly shifting what is the right way to play this character in every movie sort of like different swings at it. The first scene post the bus fight where they're eating pizza. Yeah I like that interplay in that dynamic and I was like

[01:06:01] OK this is fun and I realized like in that moment I got excited. So the value of her being in this outside of functioning as a human MacGuffin right which is like oh they're doing the fucking

[01:06:12] the Wolverine thing like Wolverine's always best with a teenage girl. Wolverine is a mentor for his self seriousness. Yes. Burly ness and you're like Dr. Strange's arrogance is best punctured perhaps by like a 16 year old girl who's like I don't fucking know why is that teen right.

[01:06:30] This is good and it solves him not needing to be snarky. You can kind of make him straight man but allow him to be funny and yeah have him be a little stuffy haven't be like right.

[01:06:40] But then I feel like that dynamic is immediately dropped for the rest of the movie. Well it's not so much dropped as it's just like there's no time for much of a dynamic because there's so

[01:06:48] much other stuff they have to do. I mean there are other scenes together in the movie are like the thing where they like look at the memories Reno and they're sort of late and that's just

[01:06:56] kind of like a little which is like the most Rick and Morty gag in the whole thing. The voice that's like you know your memories projected step on a little circle and like your memories project

[01:07:09] on a screen. I'm sorry I don't want to be that fucking guy but like especially watching this a second time I was just like what is their fucking business model. You're telling me

[01:07:17] your story is come in and we'll let you relive your memories. Yeah right. Yeah. But they have like a try me port. Yeah they'll give you like 20 seconds outside like for them like multiple.

[01:07:27] It feels like they should have cut it off at some point been like you've gotten your second. Add dollars for more. I would just go once a day and just get a little memory. Yeah.

[01:07:38] It's a little freebie memory. What's the model for any of these things on our phone. Sure. Like so often I see someone load an app and they're like clicking eight ads when I'm like

[01:07:49] it's probably like a dollar to remove that. Well I don't pay for apps. It's a principle thing. Yeah. But it's the thing with you know America and Stephen in this where they're together. They're

[01:08:01] like a little like buddy dynamic. Yeah. And then once the Illuminati stuff happens they get separated. Yeah. And then Wanda takes her and they're just gone for the rest of the movie.

[01:08:11] And then he's just hanging out with the biggest flop of this movie which is a movie I like is that the you know the crowning end moment for their dynamic is when zombie strange is like look

[01:08:21] America you've had this power and you know along you know how you know what to do. And that needs to be a big moment right. Like that needs to be the like you know her being like he's right. Right.

[01:08:31] And instead it's just kind of like look America it's been about two hours on the clock. It's kind of time for you to just fucking use your powers like correctly. But also like this movie

[01:08:39] strands Wong on the side of a mountain sleeping for an hour and then he wakes up and he's like OK time to be let him sleep. He's the source for so many now. I know I and I love him obviously.

[01:08:51] We love fucking bandit long on this show. Friend of the show. Friend of the show. But it is one of those things I'd like. And their interplay is always so fun. It is. And I was

[01:09:01] excited for him to like fucking be in more of this movie because he keeps making small appearances. The other thing is it's like OK but this is his main franchise now. And it truly is like

[01:09:09] he's sort of invested in it. He makes the sort of plea to Wanda. She's like I'm gonna knock you out for a little bit. And then an hour later cuts to him waking up on a mountain and being like

[01:09:17] thank God I landed here. Let me just climb up three steps and I'm back. Right. Look these things are hard to hard to. Yeah. Not needles to thread or whatever. Look in the plot of the film America's

[01:09:30] you know that all happens right. Then we're with Stephen Strange and he's been dreaming of this. Sure. Right. Right. Because when you dream you're actually imagining another like life. I think a cool concept. Me too. That also raises a lot of questions. Raises a fair amount of questions.

[01:09:44] I don't know how many dream sequences Marvel has had that I was trying to think about. Yeah. I think very few if any. So at least they haven't really tread on any unfortunate territory. Is there like a whole universe where everyone is like forgotten their homework. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:09:58] All fucking day. Look this is not like DC where there's 52 universes. There's like infinite. It's like a universe where you actually you know stepped on a you know cracker and like nothing else about your life is different. Yeah. There's a universe where you are homework. Yes that's the

[01:10:15] thing it can be. It can be as minute as you live next door to where you live or as massive as you are. Oh you are a pile of terrifying. Everyone is. Oh boy. And then there's this sort of like

[01:10:33] emotional arc for Dr. Strange where his his erstwhile his former girlfriend were they ever together. They were together. Okay just kind of like bantery friend. Yeah in the first movie. Yeah. What was your guys impression of their relationship. I don't remember my relationship.

[01:10:50] There's the scene after the car accident where he's like an asshole to her and she's like I'm done. Right. And I was like in his fancy apartment or whatever. But earlier on you see them like

[01:11:00] you know talking at work. They do banter and he's like I want this on the music or something. Right. Some music joke. I think they're like Jeff and Britta to tie it back to community. Like you

[01:11:11] didn't have sex but they've never really written down what they are commit to it and she's probably he's annoying. Right. My impression was that like maybe they had dated like briefly like a couple

[01:11:22] of years ago. Yeah. Didn't work out because right an asshole. And and they're still like flirty. But that's it. But like in this movie begins and it's as if like she was the great love of his life.

[01:11:33] Yes. And yeah this is a fair complaint Patrick. I'm not I'm not objecting. I just do like the idea of like in a world where a lot of people puffed out of existence for five years. Yeah.

[01:11:43] You might come back and be like fuck like that was what I was supposed to do. Oh yeah. Right. Yeah. I mean there's stuff here that I find really compelling. Like a big part of this is like

[01:11:52] you know it was like questioning like is he happy or not. And this yes I think this movie does not actually pull off. It's like they set it up and at the end they sort of like offer a code to it.

[01:12:03] But I got excited that moment where I was like oh that's actually an interesting emotional spine for this. Yeah. Which is Wanda's going crazy trying to find the universe that she wants. Yeah. And

[01:12:13] his job is to stop her. Right. But could he in the process get distracted by the possibility of is there a universe where I didn't fuck this up. Like he also has his own thing he's searching for.

[01:12:23] It's a dangling temptation. And of course every time he goes to a new universe Dr. Strange is always like no we always fuck it up or people are like you always fuck things up. Right.

[01:12:33] You know when the Illuminati show up they're like oh you. The single most surprising thing about this movie is that 70 percent of it takes place in one alternate universe. Yes. This is

[01:12:42] what I was I truly I think we were talking about the Tom Cruise rumors or whatever. I thought this movie would be like every 10 minutes baby. We're in Rick and Morty style baby. Yeah. That's what

[01:12:52] they wanted you to think. Like when they have put Patrick Stewart's voice in the trailer. Yeah. Everyone hears that and is just going like oh man if they like let us know about that what

[01:13:01] what are they holding back. The trailer has three different strangers in it and you're like oh we're gonna get like 20 strangers. And the thing like I didn't want any of that. All like like going

[01:13:09] I was like I like the thing the trailer that I cared about is the shot where the camera flies into Elizabeth Olsen's eye. Yeah. I was just like all I want is that you want the visual

[01:13:19] trailer said from director Sam Raimi and I'm like they're promoting it. Yeah. It's cool. See I thought with Enter the Spider-Verse and going so silly. Yeah. That I didn't think they

[01:13:30] were they were gonna really go in like an absurd way with this movie. Like I felt like that had established like at least for me personally like just going crazy and having a ham universe.

[01:13:43] I didn't expect it really as much in this. It is the wildest thing about this movie though is just like the multiverse thing five years ago you would have tried to explain to any lay

[01:13:51] person and their eyes would have rolled back and they were just glazed over. Right. Like what are you talking about? Spider-Verse nailed this so fucking hard right and found the perfect way to like set this up find the emotional value in it explain it in a way that

[01:14:01] made sense to everybody. The fucking device of let's do this one last time you know just fucking worked. And now the ground is laid for everyone to fucking dine out on this thing.

[01:14:11] And this ends up being like what was supposed to be Marvel's big entry into the idea of multiverse now ends up being this sort of like late comer to the party. Right. We're like we've seen all

[01:14:22] the things you can fucking do with this. I mean also obviously everything everywhere all at once is eating this movie's lunch a little bit. It's a funny thing that they came out so close to each

[01:14:32] other. That's true. Everything everywhere all at once is more. What's the universe where these relationships are healthy. But that's of course more right a thing of like where there's lots and

[01:14:41] lots and lots of different universes and there is zany as you can imagine. And one of them is just rocks and one of them is red wrecked raccoon chef. You have one sequence where Dr. Strange

[01:14:53] Raccoon. Yeah. The one sequence Dr. Strange sort of is grabbing onto a million you know sure. Right. I mean there's a whole universe. Yes. And I do like when America I like the little jokes of America being like you know most universes don't have money. Yeah. Right. You

[01:15:09] know things like that. I'm like oh that's cool. I like the weird. The universe they land in is you're like what what's the deal here. So there are a lot of flowers stop signs are reversed.

[01:15:19] People kind of dress in black. I found fuck I have to find it. I forgot about this until just now but I actually saw a good thread about what he thinks is going on in this universe because

[01:15:30] it's a very British universe. Interesting. And he had this whole theory. How would you know that? I want to find this because it was so good. Because it does just kind of read as

[01:15:43] non-specifically weird and random. People are like dressed up in this sort of like old fashioned raincoats and hats kind of way. OK. Also Pizza Pop is huge in Britain. Pizza balls. Right. So his

[01:15:57] concept was like OK so in this world the 8 3 8 I think is its number. Reed Richards is the smartest guy in the world not Tony Stark right. Like he's introduced when we see Mr. Fantastic it's like

[01:16:10] they're smartest person in the world. Right. And so Reed Richards is Ultron was not evil. It worked of boring robots. Right. And so Thanos is not a problem. I'm trying to find Captain Carter is the

[01:16:26] shield. Sure. She's British not American. The dominant cultural force is Britain. New York looks like London. Everyone wears flat cap hats and scarves. The Illuminati HQ is the British Museum

[01:16:38] which it is like that is the set they use. It just looks like the British Museum. So it's like a Tony Stark free world where instead Reed Richards is the dominant intellectual personality. And that's

[01:16:49] why it has this kind of refined feel with like grass growing and trees. Right. Like it feels a little more natural rather than like a war mongering businessman which is also just our

[01:16:58] world. So like we live in the Tony Stark world basically. And of course the biggest piece of evidence he has for this is that Wanda is not from like a destroyed Sokovia in this movie. I don't

[01:17:11] know like this is the kind of thing where I'm like look I don't really care about this but then I occasionally stumble across some super fan who's delving into this and I'm like well that's

[01:17:20] interesting. I don't even know if it's something they thought through. But you know I wasn't thinking about what this multiverse was at all really. Like you say I was just kind of like oh

[01:17:31] the traffic lights are reversed. Right. Especially because that is our balls. That sequence is so good at like in two seconds you're like I get what this universe is. I get what this universe is.

[01:17:40] Right. The place where they land you're like what's the deal here. It's just kind of a mashup of things. But like that anyway I just found that a little interesting. Yeah. Thank you for sharing

[01:17:48] I'm glad I found that thread. Anyway Ryan Broderick that was Ryan Broderick. Shout out to Ryan Broderick. But yeah they end up there. Right. There's nothing really in between him meeting America and that. Well no. We have skipped over Wanda. Like you know the second lead. He goes

[01:18:04] to she's like I know a witch. And he goes to see Wanda. Right. So it's like cold open fucking alternate universe battle. Sure. And then she shows up at the wedding. But not Shemaggath.

[01:18:14] My favorite sequence as Getherd said so great to see fucking Ramy New York back. Yeah. Okay. Can I point out one thing that made me really happy about just that Ramy New York scene. Because

[01:18:22] the thing that Ramy has always been so good at that they basically stopped doing in the MCU is just showing innocent bystanders as civilians at all. I mean obviously like in the first Spider-Man there's a whole montage of just like New Yorkers reacting and talking about Spider-Man. That's

[01:18:39] right. Right. Go Spidey go. There's so much stuff in that. And it's a thing where in the MCU years ago I like when I rewatch all the movies I noticed this shift where you know not not to like you know

[01:18:51] do the uncool thing of heaping praise on Joss Whedon right now. But we didn't did spend a lot of time like focusing on these civilians saving civilians civilians reacting to things like the

[01:19:01] worst version of the worst. Exactly. But the first two Avengers are good job of it. Yeah. Yeah. Did they. Yeah. Yeah. They like flash pushes the truck. Good job guys. Go. Yeah.

[01:19:17] But this shift when in like the Russo era when that comes in where you just never ever ever see civilians again. No. Like there's even like there's a thing in Infinity War when the black

[01:19:29] order is like attacking New York. Tony Stark helps one person up off the ground and then all civilians are gone. Then every battle it's like in the fields of Wakanda in I don't know a crater in

[01:19:40] a field in upstate New York. So many of our civilian characters are becoming superheroes as well. Like you're like there's no regular human come rescue and fucking Jane Foster's become mighty for. Yeah. And I know just like the smallest dumb touch that made me happy

[01:19:55] is there's like a wide shot when like you know I don't know Gargantos slash Shuma Gareth is like doing stuff and you see some people look up and they clearly a D.R. one guy going wow you can see

[01:20:06] his mouth open and the A.D.R. in the wow. And I was like oh he he's really putting in the effort to show people reacting. Yeah. And I think like that that sequence is devoid of quips. Yep. Yes.

[01:20:19] This movie is fairly light on self-referential defeatist Marvel humor. Yeah. And like the fucking screen the way you go to medical school like that joke works for me because it feels character based rather than a movie deflating. It's like the one thing where they say meet the

[01:20:39] Illuminati and he goes like the Illumina Wadi like that feels weird because there isn't like any of it. And it also feels weird because like that's a word he might know. He's talking.

[01:20:49] It's a word that's used. Who are these people. I do like him roasting Reed Richards though just because Krasinski is such a nothing in this. I just kind of like bad casting that. Yeah. The

[01:21:00] fans demanded it. They were delighted. People rioted in the aisles with glee. Look it obviously looks like that footage was shot five minutes before they started screening the movie or 10 years ago like one or the other. Absolutely was not in the same room as other people. It doesn't.

[01:21:16] I mean probably not. There's a I sort of get the sense that like everyone worked with Patrick Stewart. Sure. And there was a lot of subbing in and out of every other character. I mean like

[01:21:25] there was this whole thing where people were like scandalized when Elizabeth Olsen was like I've never met John Krasinski. I was like yeah guys movies are often made this way. Like it's not like

[01:21:34] that's national to our weird. Right. Yeah. Another thing that you and I have heard is that because of WandaVision and Dr. Strange back to back those shoots being interrupted by COVID all this stuff

[01:21:46] Elizabeth Olsen was committed to a TV show an HBO show. Yeah she's in some HBO show and that she was not available for the reshoot. The Elizabeth Olsen storyline is more fixed. Most fixed. I have

[01:22:00] heard that the thing about Scarlet Witch in this movie if I can talk about Scarlet Witch for a minute. I think we need to. She's the villain of the movie. Right. Because I think after

[01:22:09] Shemagorath is I know which you can fucking stop. And she's like hey what's up. And he's like how are you doing. We're friends like and then she's like yeah yeah. And then she how does she reveal

[01:22:18] herself. She knows America's name. Yeah she says a name that he didn't say. I think it's America. They do it really quickly. They do it very quickly. And then she's like actually I'm in a burning

[01:22:28] forest of my own emotions. Like a dark hole. All the marketing was sort of hiding that she was the villain and then they just turn it immediately. I do want to just quickly say well I remember this.

[01:22:40] I think this isn't as much of a problem in print. It is funny when a character's name is America and people make statements about her. We have to save America. Yes. Yes. America is going to be OK.

[01:22:53] I don't think it is. America's in trouble. I think Doctor Strange might be wrong about that one. Yeah. So Scarlet Witch is a massive problem character. She is in the comics and she has

[01:23:05] quickly become one in the movies because her power set has never made any sense. Because Stan Lee just said like I don't know she makes Ultras probability. Later writers were like she has control over reality. Like what do you mean. Like that's infinite power. Like power is both

[01:23:21] too great and too vague. Yes. In the 60s she would wave her hands and a rock would fall down. Right. By the 2000s it was like the whole world is at her command if she wills it. Yeah. Yeah. She can

[01:23:31] create and then she can rewrite the entire universe right away and then wipe out the entire mutant population. Right. It was a bad move that I will always be mad about. It was a

[01:23:40] terrible move. And the answer of why is like magic. Like you know which is this very even within the fungible world of Marvel a very very vague concept. And then she's also Magneto's daughter.

[01:23:51] Right. She is. In the comics. Yes. In love with a robot. The other thing with her is that very often they go to the wall in the comics of she does something that fucking alters the universe

[01:24:01] so much. Why. She went a little crazy. She was upset. You know women be crazy. Yes. There is this sort of you know 100 percent like it's like a well motherhood is such a powerful thing. Right.

[01:24:12] Like it made her mad. Most Wanda arcs or stories that are altered by Wanda's powers end up having this woman under the influence thread of just like she couldn't handle the pressure. And the Marvel Cinematic Universe made the exact same mistake with her on her introduction. They cannot

[01:24:29] define what her powers are. She's weird. Yes. And it's defined as like she can mess with your brain and she can move shit around like telekinetically. Yeah. And that's it. Yeah. And then she's in a

[01:24:39] bunch of movies and she never does anything except kind of fly around and move shit around. Right. And then she never does anything like where it's defined what she can do. She almost beats Thanos. Right. Like and then like Civil War she's responsible for civilian casualties. It's not

[01:24:56] she like moves like a bomb up and right. But they already go to this thing of like oh fuck is she a problem. Right. What do you mean to be watched. The thing the thing with Wanda in these movies

[01:25:06] I also I want to be careful how I word this because I know there are a lot of fans who care deeply about this character. Very upset about how the direction she went in. Right. Yeah. But

[01:25:15] my thing with her in these movies and this is just a product of like the way Marvel makes these movies is she has so much character development always happen off screen between movies. I know. So it's

[01:25:25] like Infinity War opens with her and Vision like they've run off together and they're in love and you're like what is that. Right. And even the thing like Age of Ultron ends and she's on the

[01:25:34] on the Avengers and then next movie she appears and she immediately like fucks this all up and like causes that we never get to see her like functioning on the Avenger. It's just the Marvel character who most has a Jurassic World characterization where like every time there's

[01:25:49] a new Jurassic World movie you're like what fucking happened in between these two. Like BD Wong just always looks different has an entirely different vibe and ethos. It's true. You

[01:25:58] know it's so I like Elizabeth Olsen a lot as an actor. She's such a talented actor she seems very eager to be not in these movies anymore. That was one of the most heroic press tours of her being

[01:26:08] like I'm gonna watch these movies and I'm very happy to have more time in my schedule. Yeah right and I just think it is like every time they come to her and they're like the demands of what we

[01:26:16] need out of you are entirely different than they were last time and we didn't let you play the fun part. And from the moment she signed up for this role in Age of Ultron she always said the thing I

[01:26:27] like the most is her building the family. Of course that is the most compelling Scarlet Witch storyline it is right like what she initially is from the Vision and Scarlet Witch books but like yeah like

[01:26:39] that she imagines these children into existence. Right and was like I don't think they'll ever let me do that. Right. But so WandaVision feels like the one thing aside from the fact that she also

[01:26:47] gets to play in genres. I think WandaVision was also just very dramatically successful. I really like WandaVision. Yeah and comedically you know getting to do these different styles and whatever that's like the one that really played to her strengths. Right. But a problem with how these

[01:26:59] fucking movies are made is that they had no ability to gauge what the public response to WandaVision was. That's true they're making this long before WandaVision premiered. Right. And or even just how it came out in the edit

[01:27:10] like how things were playing. Right. I think they didn't understand that there would be a much greater sense of audience sympathy and empathy for Wanda going into this film. Right. And I think Sam

[01:27:23] Raimi has been handed Wanda's your villain and he's like great and I think he uses her very effectively as a truly scary villain in this movie. Yes. But he's sort of divorced from the larger MCU

[01:27:35] like ocean. Right. And so he just makes this movie with this like really intense like freight train villain that they are constantly trying to get out of the way of. Yeah. And every fucking way

[01:27:45] he uses her is cool. Like when she comes through the mirror. That's great. And reassembles herself it's frightening. Yeah. When she like invades the mind of other Wanda and makes the storm in the teacup and all that. Yes. It's really really impressive. There's the moment at Carmatage

[01:27:58] where she like freezes and everyone's frozen and then she appears behind the one guard's head and whispers into his ear. It's cool. Yeah. Fucking shit. Then she's all zombified and kills the Illuminati and then she's chasing them down the tunnel. Like yeah it's great. There's

[01:28:12] a he you know Raimi. There's a moment even where he does the evil dead camera thing where they're all hiding out in that room. Oh and they do like like wishes. I wish it was the other way. The

[01:28:21] camera is her presence. It's the energy. I mean he also does that later where he has the camera like attacking Rachel McAdams which I love. I mean I mean it's just all the Raimi stuff. So like I

[01:28:31] think he understood that assignment. Right. But like he's more divorced from Wanda large at large and then because of Olsen unavailability whether or not it was the right thing to do. They can't really rework it. But I remember watching this movie. Sure she's revealed as a villain right

[01:28:47] away. OK. And then she starts attacking Carmatage and I'm like oh she's like killing people. And I'm like yeah there's she's gonna have to go. There's no returning from this. Right. Right. Like you

[01:28:56] have the sort of like oh the dark hold made her crazy but like almost immediately watching the movie I was like oh this is it for her. Like there's no redemption. She's not going back on

[01:29:04] the lunchbox. No I mean you can of course now in the Marvel world you could always just snatch someone from another reality as a but like it kind of felt like I was like this is it. This

[01:29:13] is this is Elizabeth Olsen saying bye. Because even in the moments where she's sort of full evil dead dead energy. Yeah. The movie does not play like oh she's possessed. No. It plays like

[01:29:24] she's making choices. Yeah. She has justified in her mind and she's overcome with this evil energy but it's like she knows what she's doing. She ran the calculus. This was her choice which

[01:29:34] I think pisses a lot of people off who care about this character. Especially because like in Wanda Vision the way it ends up is like she does a bad thing by controlling this whole town and then

[01:29:43] she stops at the end and you know everyone is mad at her and she kind of walks away and then you'd think there it's like some recognition of like OK I got out of control. That was crazy.

[01:29:54] I didn't even know what I was doing. It was sort of a conscious. And then you have the post credit scene that's like oh no. Then she went track down an evil book to do worse. Well she gets

[01:30:01] the evil book in Wanda Vision. She's really good at the end. Agatha gives it to her. Right. It was Agatha all along. It was Agatha all along. But I would say the only thing in this movie that really

[01:30:11] sticks in my craw and I don't know phrase we overused is that you know early on they pose the thing to her of like well what are you going to do with the other Wanda whenever you find this

[01:30:20] fucking like family universe. And she's like forget it. And then of course like that is the question. And then at the end of the movie that's exactly what snaps her out of it. And you're like

[01:30:31] she's smarter than this. She would have had to think about this. So you know so it just is kind of annoying that they don't have some further elevation there or at least some dialogue from her.

[01:30:41] Yeah. Something. That's another fucking good sequence when like she first enters and you're seeing it from the perspective of that universe is Wanda and the photos start moving all that shit. Storm in the teacup. I love that. Yes. It's really good. It's really good. I will say a

[01:30:57] thing that was like a little bit of a sticking point for me and this you know people might disagree with this is in Wanda Vision that whole show doesn't take place over like that much time

[01:31:07] right because they're like things are suddenly happening. Yeah I guess so. I can't remember how long does she actually have the kids for because it seems like a few days. And so like

[01:31:17] if her motivation at least for me and her motivation was getting Vision back a person that she actually had a long time relationship with. This is again why reordering it would make a lot

[01:31:25] more sense. I get wanting kids. Yeah. But like you did also magic them out of nothing and they aged up to like eight years old in a day. I always acted like superficial sitcom children like they

[01:31:37] were never characterized. Right. And they're annoying. I like kids. I love children. They're annoying. They're annoying. They're like when she's back with the kids and they're like me. I'm like oh God I'd be fucking like they're singing a song. Right. Right. Like they're not. Whereas

[01:31:53] Vision like it's so sad in Infinity War where she has to kill him and she you know does it and then Thanos rewinds it back so it feels so pointless that she had to go through that. It's so awful.

[01:32:05] Yeah. So like that would be like a and of course that is the thing that sets up Wanda Vision right. That's what she's upset about. Right. But it would you know like her looking for Vision

[01:32:13] and instead of course they don't mention Vision in this much. She says Vis one time. And like Waldron has said like look that had been done in Wanda Vision we thought like it just wouldn't

[01:32:21] really make sense for us to go back to the well I get it. It feels weird that he's not in it. But then it feels a little odd that the character we actually love is out there. And so Vision is not

[01:32:30] in she's just a single mom in this other universe. It seems that way. Well because in this universe you know Ultron didn't fail. And so that Vision doesn't exist. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just FYI.

[01:32:43] OK. I think that's the internal logic going on there. But but then it's weird that the kids are the same. Ben wants to kill me. He just sent me a text message saying that I'm meet me outside.

[01:32:55] You're dead. Stop stop stop. This is like right. These are the questions that are hard to reconcile with this movie. I have to call my mom to pick me up because I'm scared. Yeah. No go. The answer

[01:33:07] is when you know because recently the story came out of like a five years about to take the whole Marvel brain trust to a cabin and they're going to spend a week and they're going to plan out the

[01:33:15] next 10 years. Right. And it's this thing where they're like the building blocks of like oh how do we get to this and that and the other yet to get a good idea where this movie just starts to

[01:33:25] crumble under like decisions made six years ago. Yeah absolutely. I'm sure they have some plan. I hope it's not Galactus or something like my ultimate fear is that they're going to a cabin

[01:33:39] and they're like and it's all going to end up with a big dude coming to threaten the earth again because it's like right. How many versions of that are I mean what it seems like they're going to do

[01:33:48] because this introduces. Have you guys read the Hickman Avengers stuff. Yes. So this movie introduces the whole like incursion thing with the Illuminati basically having to decide to like destroy these other universes or crashing into each other. And that is like this long run that

[01:34:05] eventually leads up to secret wars where like in that one Dr. Doom becomes a god and remakes the whole earth and Dr. Doom does not exist in this world so that will probably not happen. But but

[01:34:15] like planting that seed here I assume that's where they're going down the road. Yes I guess. I mean I don't know. That really gets me excited. Silver Surfer would make an appearance though right if

[01:34:28] they did the Galactus. I have to imagine. I mean he can appear at any time. Mr. Norrin Radd will eventually show up. Get him out. He's the jack of them all. Did you know that Silver Surfer's

[01:34:36] given last name is Radd? No. Norrin Radd. With two Ds. Well of course. That's just proper. Talked about I feel like a lot over the years and you and I have talked about this as well

[01:34:49] of just like is there going to become a breaking point for these movies. The thing that happened with comics where they became so built around these crossover events that are going to forever

[01:34:59] change the universe as you know it and in order to follow the event you have to read 30 different titles because all of them have a piece of the thing aside from alongside the main miniseries

[01:35:10] title. You know you need to be able to track all this sort of shit. And this thing was a boon to sales because suddenly people are picking up more things weekly. It's the whole you know

[01:35:20] they used to do it once a year now it's every three months. You gotta buy fucking eight issues just to keep track. So as like the comic audience the comic buying audience contracted they got the

[01:35:31] people who were on the hook to buy more titles and it worked for a while until a lot of people started feeling really fucking burnt out and just being like I get this shit is just all unwieldy

[01:35:41] overwhelming I'm tired of reading things I don't care about having to follow characters I don't like expensive and then it's sort of like causes a problem again right. But it's always felt like

[01:35:50] the thing of like when is the buy in going to be too great on these movies. When is the mythology going to be too fucking tangled where it's impossible to just fucking pick it up and

[01:35:59] enter into it. We might be there. I mean if having the TV shows makes it so much more complicated. I know because it's like now instead of watching a total of maybe six hours of stuff per year it's

[01:36:09] like oh you've got to watch 40 hours second one ends the next one starts it's just like fucking constant with the TV shows whereas the movies are at least like four months apart. There was

[01:36:19] like 10 days between Moon Knight ending and Ms Marvel starting or something. Moon Knight was very very tied to everything that's going on in Marvel. But I think back to and by the way like you know

[01:36:33] it felt like a couple earlier moments this has to be the tipping point where this shit becomes just inaccessible to the public. It cannot be this mainstream anymore because it's gotten too

[01:36:44] gnarled and whatever. And then it's like Endgame was such a triumph that you had people who went like fuck it finally I'm going to watch these 20 movies. WandaVision coming out during the pandemic. I think that had a cleaner emotional arc. Everyone I knew watched WandaVision. Obviously

[01:36:58] we were all captive to our couches or whatever. Ben didn't watch it. So yeah not every not a lot of people like a lot of people who don't really watch that shit were texting me being like you

[01:37:07] seen WandaVision? And then we're like god damn it I guess I have to watch all these movies. It was a novelty. It was the first one. Oh that's interesting. And it was different.

[01:37:16] It was different. It had a whole concept. Well I mean until it ended up with people shooting different color energy beams. The deal was for people who hadn't watched it right. Who spent their time I don't know doing anything else having sex and wearing sunglasses and doors.

[01:37:31] Their last name is Rad with two D's. In WandaVision Wanda creates a sort of bubble reality for herself where Vision her robot boyfriend is alive and they have children together and it was

[01:37:43] presented kind of as like sitcoms over the years. That's what I was going to ask. It has that very like it has like a I love Lucy thing. First it was like Dick Van Dyke then it was like you know

[01:37:51] Bewitched. She grew up loving sitcoms and sitcoms are a comfort food so every episode of that show essentially moves to a different era of sitcoms. That's interesting. It was great. There's like a

[01:38:01] Brady Bunch episode and Malcolm in the middle episode like it takes on the different styles but sort of the evolution of the family growing across the evolution. And then in the final episode it's

[01:38:09] like it was a witch all along. It's a little boring but she gets a new costume that's more comic accurate at the end. She does get a Scarlet Witch for the first time. Actually every single

[01:38:19] one of these shows pretty much ends with them getting a new more comic accurate costume. Yes they do love to do that. Yeah. So what I was going to say OK but then let's stop talking Marvel and

[01:38:29] just do a little Ramy. Yeah absolutely. This is time back in the room. OK. This was a thing I forgot to say in the Spider-Man 3 episode but I remember because those movies were just like

[01:38:40] so accessible. It's a boy who likes a girl you introduced to one villain. You understand their trash. He's got a gift to the curse right. First two are just like those are movies that anyone

[01:38:50] in America can understand. Right. Right. I remember Tobey Maguire going on to promote Spider-Man 3 on The Daily Show and Jon Stewart was like I love these movies. They're so much fun. So what's this

[01:39:04] one about. And he was like well we got like three villains this time and one of them there's like a meteorite that has an alien on it. Sure. And it lands and attaches myself to the suit. And Jon

[01:39:14] Stewart goes see this is the moment where you lose. He's like this is the exact moment where I just can't engage with this comic stuff. That's too much of a buy in. Right. And to watch this

[01:39:24] movie where you're like the buy in is now so great. We're just most casual viewers understand a multiverse this and that alternate reality bubble like you know alter kids whatever

[01:39:35] we're watching this I was like it's crazy that now this does not seem like too much of a buy in for most people. And yet also I feel like a lot of the response to this movie has been like

[01:39:46] this is maybe the moment where I'm getting tired. Maybe. But I keep up with the stuff and track it. I think part of the response is more people who are like I am bought in and you did not do

[01:39:54] what I bought in person wanted weird and like that's the weird thing that they have usually done a good job navigating. Like we're going to satisfy the fans. We're going to satisfy the casual family viewers and get kind of dragged along or whatever. Everyone's going to be happy

[01:40:08] in this one. It seems like the fans are kind of like a little grumpy about it. Yes. And maybe the casual family people really what the hell's going on this thing. And then the rainy heads

[01:40:18] were like crash zooms. We love it. You know this is cool. Just yeah just because like there's certain things we should talk about that we haven't talked about yet. The Illuminati we

[01:40:30] don't need to talk about that. I just like the ruthlessness of him being like enjoy your little fan service. Squash squash squash. That's what I like especially because like I was so annoyed

[01:40:42] when Krasinski showed up because it's I mean look you don't know how good he was. Exactly. But like this guy seems too smart. My take on this is just in no world do you cast the guy that you almost

[01:40:53] cast as Captain America as Reed Richards. Yes it just it just doesn't. You're right it's a bit of a misunderstanding. And and you know it's never been his energy. No it's not his fucking energy.

[01:41:04] He's either like a nice everyman or he's like an action jock. It's truly that one fucking Photoshop that has lingered for years where it's just like oh if you combine. You're gonna big old

[01:41:17] fantastic. And it's just because he's married to Emily Blunt. What if it was the two of them. Yes people like the married couple. People like that he's a director. Sure. They like that he almost

[01:41:25] was a Marvel guy that he's proven that he can be action hero adjacent now. But you're like this is fundamentally not who he is. Yeah his take on Reed Richards is just I don't know like bored a nice

[01:41:35] guy. He's sort of given the exact same performance in A Quiet Place which is a guy who's. One we don't want to do this. Yeah it's not a good idea. It's not trying really hard. Sound bad like you

[01:41:45] know who else. You know like Anson Mount was the biggest surprise for me. That brought me true delight. It really I mean for him obviously you know he's having a great month or so. But so good

[01:41:56] in Strange New World. Yeah but I like in humans is the thing that like Marvel I feel like would most the most shameful thing ever get out. Ever existed. Like the worst thing. I actually know

[01:42:08] this isn't the worst thing Jeff Loeb is responsible for. Ultimate is very bad comic but um but so but like that was like their big move to be like see Marvel TV can play with the big boys and shoot

[01:42:19] things on with IMAX cameras. Such an embarrassment. And also just for people who don't know when they didn't have the rights to the mutants and that whole side of the universe. That was the plan

[01:42:30] to have the humans. I was like you have to have the inhumans take the role of mutants in this universe. They announced in humans as a movie. The comics doubled down on humans for like three

[01:42:40] years. And at some point five years like don't make me fucking do this. We have to stop. I know we have to stop because we don't have a lot of time. But the black thing it's like that's

[01:42:50] the character he never wanted to fucking touch. He didn't want to have to put these in the movies. He hunted that off to TV to play Anson Mount in the proper costume and do it. And the thing that's

[01:43:00] most satisfying about it is Anson Mount fucking spent six months building some fucking he made up his own sign language because he was like well Blackball wouldn't know ASL. He's not from

[01:43:10] yeah. He's from M moon. From what I heard from someone who worked on that show is that he had like just done like clown college and so was really eager to like use his his new like physical

[01:43:20] comedy skills. Blackball is cool. His voice is loud. His name is Blackagar Boltagon. Yeah he's cool. So it's nice to see he got loud voice back. I took my six year old cousin my little cousin

[01:43:33] George to see this movie. We needed a couple bathroom breaks because we got a very large soda. And it's a bit. It's actually not that long a movie. It's an even two hours. I truly the entire

[01:43:46] basically all of the Illuminati dialogue happened during a bathroom break. Oh sure. I was astounded by that like oh that's really it's five to 10 minutes less. Yeah. Less. We like walked in the dialogue itself. Then you've got this one that was fighting the fucking big cave troll monsters.

[01:44:03] Right. And I was like I guess it's a good time to go to the bathroom. We came back. The introductions were done. Right. And they were cutting out of the scene. Right. And then I had to be like

[01:44:13] listen this is these five guys. You know this from the comic. That's an alternate version of character you know this occurred from a different movie. And by the time I had like finished

[01:44:21] explaining it to him they were all dead. Yeah. It's quick. They spent so much more time killing them off than they do having them exist. The killing off is fun. It's really fun. I mean

[01:44:30] Black Bolt's death in particular. Yes. It's like impressive that like they were they were allowed to do this in one of these movies. Also just really funny funny which is it's when he covers

[01:44:42] his mouth so as he explodes his own head. Yes. Yeah. It's like kind of gory like you can see the like lump of like brain matter like sag down in his mask. It's good. Yeah. And this is the

[01:44:55] thing. These little touches the eyeball coming out of Schumacher this stuff. He loves his fucking eyeballs in places they don't belong. Oh yeah. And then the final sequence with the zombie where

[01:45:05] it's just a little nastier than you normally would see in what kind of movie like I like Derek's and I like the first Doctor Strange. I think his main priority was how do we make magic

[01:45:14] look cool. Right. Right. So all the hand gesture stuff. And I think he did a good job and there's sort of the like yeah fiery ember of this sort of thing. The whole like like finger thing. But that

[01:45:23] movie is really about him trying to develop a visual language of what do spells look like. Right. And this movie from that first action sequence you're like Rami is really thinking like 12 dimensionally about like if you could do anything what would you do. So sometimes you make

[01:45:37] a fucking like Green Lantern construct of like big fists. Yeah. To punch with or to pick up a lamppost or whatever. Right. And then sometimes you take fucking music notes like it is just so

[01:45:47] much fun to watch him someone one of our great sort of just innate visual cinematic thinkers right. A person who thinks in images and motion but the musical note battle which I have to imagine

[01:46:01] is like the kind of thing he's bringing to the initial pitch right. Like here's an idea I have right. You know that is the most like one of the best action sequences I've seen in a movie

[01:46:11] recently. No Marvel qualifier. I was so delighted by that because one it looks cool but two I never would have thought of something like that. No. It's so incredibly clever and it's such a good

[01:46:23] version of the sort of like I'm in this room and I don't have a gun you know I'll grab a candlestick and try and bash a guy with it but like 10 levels beyond that where it's like well what if I could

[01:46:32] pull the musical notes off of that sheet of paper. It's the thing I went to a we're at this is the sequences he finds the other evil Dr. Strange and they have a big battle. I went on a weird rabbit

[01:46:42] hole for some reason watching the fucking Green Lantern clips of the Ryan Reynolds movie. Yeah sure. But it's like he does the thing that movie completely fails to do which is like oh what makes

[01:46:54] Dr. Strange powerful is that he's smart enough to think of how to apply Ryan Reynolds magic ability just makes like a gun green lantern. But it's that thing it's like why is Dr. Strange more powerful than other wizards because like he's inventive. He's inventive 100 percent which

[01:47:10] Ramey is as well. And of course like the thing I've noticed about like the musical note battle which I agree is delightful and such a fun surprise and the thing that these movies never do

[01:47:19] is but I've talked to people who are not like Ramey heads who are more like bigger Marvel fans and they were just like yeah I don't know I thought that was dumb it was like kind of like childish

[01:47:29] and silly. I didn't know why it was there. Depressing. Yeah it does have a dance dance revolution vibe. Sure nothing wrong. Yeah. There's nothing wrong with me. Like just the energy of that and then what follows. It's it's like a Mission Impossible sequence where Tom Cruise

[01:47:45] only has a piece of paper to use a bomb with. He's like OK so I got it down with the musical notes like fuck now I have to get myself to Mount Wanda Gore to fight. What can I do. And he starts

[01:47:57] doing the you know dreamwalking right where he's going to possess a body and like Rachel McAdams is like don't you need a body possessed. And he's got the zombie corpse. It's so good that we

[01:48:06] totally forgotten about. I had genuinely not thought about. And it's a nice and like the lightning strikes the hand. The lightning strikes. The hand comes out. The music is really kicking into like Beetlejuice seance. There's a crash zoom on the eyes with lights on with a light

[01:48:21] on the eyes. Yes. And then you've got this wonderful shot of Bennett Cumberbatch in his seance going like like this. That is so funny and so delightful and so well acted by Bennett

[01:48:31] Cumberbatch who is good in this movie. Yes. And like it's just the goofiness real goofiness not MCU goofiness of he's right behind me isn't he. Like the kind of thing that clearly you're

[01:48:46] you know the people you're talking to are like too goofy for me. Right. Yeah. Like it's like crossing some line that like clearly they mostly don't cross. Right. Yes. Like I mean look we saw

[01:48:54] this at a critic screening. Yeah. So like what we were all clapping and cheering. This is what I was going to say. Like the the reveal of the Illuminati members like that got like a more

[01:49:03] muted response. The two moments where I remember the audience like hooting and hollering were zombie. No. OK. Go ahead. Yeah. I was the reveal of the zombies. You could feel the energy in the

[01:49:17] room where people were like are they going to fucking let him do this. And not only are they doing it but he's setting it up for like evil. He's got makeup on. You know it's makeup. Yes.

[01:49:27] Like that is not a huge monster. It's Cumberbatch makeup. He's doing a whole physical performance giving a dead eye performance to like specifically this is how Ramy does. This is what it looks like.

[01:49:37] This is how you have to move. This is the energy. Cumberbatch in interviews talks about like Sam Remy like yes we don't want you to do you know like he does imitations of Ramy clearly

[01:49:45] explaining the performance to him. Yes. And you know they're they're little touches a lot of them we've talked about. The other thing I remember the audience like hooting and hollering at was the sting of the X-Men animated series score when Patrick Stewart shows up. No.

[01:49:58] The I think what you called in a recent video you did a great video recently Patrick on the hula hoop sequence from Hudsucker Proxy. I mean it's Ramy season we all got to talk about. You

[01:50:07] got to watch a great video great breakdown of one of them and you sort of break down the fundamentals of Ramy style and that sort of thing. What I think you call the the superimposed visual collage.

[01:50:19] Yeah. The thing he does it's when Mordo is explaining. Right. A thing that that's that there was like a viral tweet where someone was like this is the most amateurish transition I've ever

[01:50:28] seen. Like go back literally laying images and cross fading them and the music is getting sort of like. Yeah. You remember the audience getting amped about that. That's at least our row was

[01:50:39] fucking letting him do this. I know like a big shout out to Bob Maraski who like was able to give this the editing rhythms of a Ramy movie and the construction the scene construction. This is also

[01:50:51] the first Marvel movie in recent memory with a final act is the best act in any memory possibly. Like I don't want the last movie where you're like it ends best. I mean I don't like end game

[01:51:02] has a fun. Yeah. But in terms of not like even ending the time heist is the best part. It is the middle. Yeah. Actually I'm going to say it might be the first Doctor Strange which has at

[01:51:15] least an inventive and it's the first Doctor Strange Marvel's thing. I feel like it's usually creating like fun likable characters that we enjoy watching and then the big set pieces get kind of samey and boring syndrome where you're like this is an interesting dynamic. And once

[01:51:29] again Doctor Strange is like the character stuff is kind of just a water like a warmed over Tony Stark. But the action scenes and visuals are actually pretty cool and innovative. And that third act where it's like oh it's like the backward city being destroyed. It's like him

[01:51:46] going and like Dormammu and stuff like that. Yes. Defeat Dormammu through logic. Right. Fun fun in this he dream walks of course into a dead body and then a voice goes like that is forbidden

[01:51:59] and then there's a bunch of little monsters that show up and start flying around. No explanation. We don't need it. We got it. He did something that violates some sort of cosmic law David

[01:52:09] and what happens then those little monsters just fly away. They certainly don't cling to his body forming a demon cape. But that's what's so good is initially they're a problem right. And there

[01:52:17] they go. And then like I can't remember who it is. I think it's Wong or something you know sounds like your doctor. No it's right. It's Rachel McAdams. Yes. Is it your doctor strange and he's

[01:52:25] like right. I will use them as a cape to fly. Yeah. It's pretty cool. And they have kind of a stop motion look to them. They look like little you know army of darkness fuckers like they look

[01:52:35] like little you know rainy bastards. Yeah. And they're going which is like the whole time. But that's why the whole zombie strange thing feels like a metaphor for Sam Raimi a like getting

[01:52:46] his mojo back. Yes. You know and finding a way to like I'm going to will this into being my movie. Right. And like you know yeah. Like I said you know America's big awakening is a little whatever. Yeah but it is fun that she's getting motivated by

[01:53:02] a doctor straight zombie that like toxic dish. You know that looks all fucked up. It's just like well he's able to take some of the perfunctory scenes and just make them. It's such an annoying like the power within you all along. Right. Like at least he's saying it

[01:53:16] from the body of a corpse. Yes. Yes. That's fun. Right. But then you have Wanda's big moment and like I think Elizabeth Olsen plays all this stuff fine. She's a talented actor. Yeah. But

[01:53:27] like that's where I'm sort of like you know it's a little wanting in the large. I just don't care about the kids that much. I don't know. They're kind of bad about that. I don't I don't care

[01:53:37] about the kids and I think you're right that I mean I care about the fact that she likes them. That's good. But like me she feels connected to 25 when you're just like well now she's going

[01:53:46] to have to fucking die at the end this movie like that is the thing. Right. There's no undoing this not right. Yeah. She's totally unredeemable at the irredeemable at this point. Yes.

[01:53:59] Then at the end of the movie he's like well I'm Dr. Strange. I'm sure I actually really like Wong's little line where he's like you happy Wong. Yeah. Monk's like you know

[01:54:07] life throws what it does at me but I am you know I'm feeling OK. It's way better than that. I remember how it goes but it's a really nice line that's well delivered just like oh right.

[01:54:16] That's what they were sort of trying to set up was the thing here. He only meets one Christine. He ends on fairly good terms with her. I I like I'm going to defend it. I like the idea of Dr.

[01:54:25] Strange going to every universe and they're like you're an asshole. Yes. Which is sort of been the Dr. Strange arc. Yes. And at the end of the day he's like I'm an asshole. It's OK. Yeah. I'm

[01:54:34] not bad. Yeah. I mean I'm just kind of annoying. This is a funny thing because I've been reading a bunch of like 70s Dr. Strange comics and the funny thing there is like the Marvel kind of

[01:54:43] formula is usually like OK it's these superheroes but they have like real personal problems and personal lives and we can relate to these things. And Dr. Strange doesn't have any of that really.

[01:54:53] Yes. He gives up his entire past life just be like I am just going to be a sorcerer who lives in a house with one man. Right. Like it is it feels like way more like a like a 30s pulp character

[01:55:05] than any of the Marvel characters like he doesn't really like the appeal of Dr. Strange was never relatable problems that we all share. It's just oh he goes to cool like trippy visual dimensions.

[01:55:16] Yeah exactly right. Yeah. He's not a guy who like has to figure out his emotions. The Stan Lee thing where he'd be like what's a culture I haven't commented on before. What's

[01:55:24] a world I haven't played. We put all the West Village guy right. Mysticism magic like. But yes he I think that's one of the reason why you will rarely meet people who are like Dr. Strange was

[01:55:35] my favorite. But there is they're out there. They're out there of course at the end of this movie he gets his third eye. Yeah which is that a thing. Yeah. In the comics. I mean it's hell

[01:55:46] I'm fucking love to see it. But like Joey my brother text me being like what does that mean. I was like nothing. He's just got like more magic power. You can see into further dimensions. So

[01:55:54] when the eye opens there's like a fucking guitar. Yeah it's cool. Yeah. But the way it shows up played by Charlize Theron and like it's one of those things that these movies do a lot where

[01:56:03] it's sort of like next time he's going to have a really normal Dr. Strange adventure we promise he's going to go to the dark dimension. It'll be totally like you'll meet fucking nightmare or

[01:56:11] whoever. Well the weird thing eternity one of those guys. The thing with the ending is like like evil Dr. Strange in that one universe has the third eye. He does. Which seems to indicate

[01:56:19] like he used the dark hole that like took hold of him. He's not doing great. He's like cursed. And then at the very end of the movie there's a very rainy ending where he seems like he's doing

[01:56:28] fine. He's walked down the street and suddenly like writhes in pain and there's a big sting. Very rainy. Yeah. You thought he was in the clear. The guy's curse forever. Exactly. And then suddenly we skip to the mid credit scene and oh never mind everything is totally fine.

[01:56:42] They did the same kind of thing in I feel like Marvel has gotten lazier with their post credit scenes like definitely. Yeah definitely. At this point like what should I don't know. It almost

[01:56:50] always undoes the ending. They're like spinning some wheel. It's the same thing in the in the Eternals one and it's like and now a famous person you'll recognize will walk in in a costume and say

[01:57:00] hi I'm the new person you have to know about. The Eternal one is it's brutal. Right just like go home and read my Wikipedia article so you know this stuff for the next one. But like Clea's cool.

[01:57:10] Clea's a main part of Dr. Strange. But like he meets Clea on an adventure. She doesn't just walk up to him on the street and say I'm here now. If they announced Charlize Theron is going to play

[01:57:19] Clea in Dr. Strange 3 I go oh that's cool. The way this is set up gives me zero joy or excitement. Yeah well and it just feels like it undoes the integrity of the movie. You should have lots of

[01:57:30] joy for Marvel. Well they do then have the single best post credit scene they've ever done. It's finished is really funny. Should I say it's the other thing. Bruce Campbell is the pizza man.

[01:57:41] It's the other for me missed opportunity of them not jumping to more dimensions is when they set up Pizza Papa I was like oh my God he's going to meet like 10 Bruce Campbell's and each one he's

[01:57:52] going to torture in a different way. It would be funny. It would be. It's probably a movie that's longer but like that would be funny. Now can I say because I think I know we have to play box office

[01:58:01] game wrap it up. But important thing. Michael Stuhlbarg's performance in this was deeply moving and made you cry. His agent really did some good work to get him that. There's a Marvel sequel thing

[01:58:13] where if they exercise last one you give me a way to option. There's the like Captain Marvel where it's like John Manhattan Lee Pace Clark Gregg all of them have insane billing in that movie. But at

[01:58:23] least like Lee Pace shows up in a German hit like dramatically. Michael Stuhlbarg is in one. He'd sit in a church. It's incredible. Yeah. Good wig. I like the bit of just like my little cousin was

[01:58:38] like wait so people know he's Dr. Strange and I was like yeah. And he was like why aren't they asking him questions. It's a fair question which was smart. And then it's like watch. Hey George

[01:58:47] wait till you fucking see Stuhlbarg. He's got some questions for this fucking guy. No I think the last important thing to bring up is to your point Dr. Strange isn't valuable isn't human in that same

[01:58:57] sort of way. He's sort of icy and detached but he doesn't have the demons of a Tony Stark. You know the dead sister thing which is fascinating because it is so similar to Ramey's own older

[01:59:10] brothers death. When I saw it first I was like that's not strange mythology at all. I looked into it. It is. It is. There's this sequence where he the doctor strange like prove you're another

[01:59:19] doctor. He talks about a sister who fell through the ice. But it's true of course the Sam Raimi lost a sibling that way a brother. Yes. I don't know if it's exactly like falling through the

[01:59:27] ice but he drowned. Yes. Send sender is that Sander. Yeah. And it does feel like something that Ramey is including you know as a sort of like this was the because he says like Sanders

[01:59:39] when it got him into comic books right is this little homage and his entire career is sort of trying to honor Sander in a lot of ways. Yeah. And it's also like oh we're now on like Dr. Strange

[01:59:50] appearance number six or seven. And you finally sort of found the spine of this guy which is just like that was a death he couldn't prevent and he keeps everyone at a distance. Yeah. And he

[02:00:00] wants to exert like high control versus like the what if episode for Dr. Strange on the Disney plus show have Nazi was what if Dr. Strange lost his heart instead of his hands. Sure. And their ideas

[02:00:13] what if instead of the car accident fucking up his hands Christine Palmer died and he went crazy trying to find a way to keep her alive. Right. Which is like felt like them just teeing up this

[02:00:24] movie being like we need to now make it seem like the Palmer thing is right. Right. The thing that haunts him the most interesting. Yeah. I think the dead sister thing is a lot more. I think

[02:00:34] some are batch plays that scene really well. He's a really good actor. He's a very good and he's especially good when I feel like he's being evil Dr. Strange and then being dead Dr. Strange like

[02:00:43] he's having a blast with those. Yes. Yeah. I think it's a good movie but I also think there's just so much bullshit around it. I think it's a mess with some really fun stuff. I mean at this point

[02:00:56] I would be kind of excited if they announced that like Ramey's directing Dr. Strange three but it's just going to be like it's not a crossover movie. It's just it's just a Dr. Strange movie. I know

[02:01:06] but I think the fans would be mad. Some of them would be. But you know what they'll still see it and it will still make 900 million dollars quite possible doesn't really seem like the

[02:01:15] Bloom is on throws box office wise. Not really. No. The box office game is pretty simple. It's just from a few weeks ago May 6th 2022. This movie opened to 187. Yeah good number. Yeah it's made

[02:01:29] 930 million dollars worldwide. Yeah. Number two is an animated film. Number two is an animated film. I think you saw. I did. I took my cousin George to see it. The nice guys. No. The good

[02:01:40] guys. No they're not good. The bad guys. There you go. Don't really know anything about it. I'm evidence of how I made. I mean I will say oh just interesting thing about like Marvel tipping

[02:01:53] point Lucas and hated Dr. Strange. Oh he didn't like it. Yeah. Halfway through he turned to me and he went first Dr. Strange is a lot better. And I went George. Yeah I went like this movie's a

[02:02:03] little confusing right. And he went it's not confusing it's just trash. Wow. And afterwards his big review was. Did he hold his nose and say P.U. P.U. The other thing he did was the scene

[02:02:12] where the show McGrath the fucking big fight scene. He like when they go into that battle he like wiped like sweat off his brow and went like whoo. Right. And I went like what you're

[02:02:23] nervous about this. And he was just like no I was worried that he was going to kiss the lady. Classic. Can you take him to every movie and just report back. Yes absolutely. But anytime there's

[02:02:33] kissing this is going to throw a Dr. Pepper at the screen. And then the final Christine Palmer like I'm sorry I fucked it up thing. He was like tell me when it's safe to look at the screen.

[02:02:38] He was covering his eyes. He was so convinced a kiss was coming. He's the anti David. Yes he's the anti David kid. But he just said every Marvel movie is good except for this one. Whoa. I don't

[02:02:49] know if I agree with him on that. I don't either but I thought that was interesting. It is interesting. Number three of the box. He loved the film. The bad guys though is a film that I feel like

[02:02:57] George has seen. Sonic 2. Sonic 2. He also loves it. He was aghast that I had not seen. Good movie. Knuckles is in it for example. One evidence of it being good is that sure. Super Sonic. Yeah he

[02:03:12] shows up. Number four at the box office is a huge hit that everyone liked. No it's a terrible franchise entry that's probably killed a franchise. Probably. I mean if they announce a fourth one I really will

[02:03:26] be like what are you guys doing. But I watched it thinking like well maybe this thing kind of ends with a sort of like graceful note where they could have a sequel if it works or they could end here

[02:03:36] if it doesn't. No it doesn't. Totally ends on the nothing note. And you know there's like two more movies supposedly going to come. Oh oh oh oh oh. Unfortunately you're talking about the secrets

[02:03:48] of Dumbledore. I'm talking about Fantastic Beasts the secrets of Dumbledore. Yes. Watch it on HBO Max now let it slide over you right into the garbage. Number five. The definition of a jury

[02:03:58] duty franchise where even the people who are invested in it are like yeah I gotta go. I got the notice in the mail there's a new Fantastic Beasts movie coming out for six months. Yeah.

[02:04:07] Number five at the box office is we mentioned it. Dr. Strange is you know a surprise competition in the multi-verse. Oh everything everywhere all at once. Which is a genuinely delightful success at the box office. It's made a sixty three million dollars domestically which is pretty good.

[02:04:27] I don't love it as much as some but I like it. I want to see it again. I yeah I think it's a pretty fantastic movie. I also want to see it again. We had a bad experience at the theater

[02:04:35] with loud loud people when we saw it then. Yeah. Which disrupted a little bit. Which I think that's the thing I think I was like a little more high. Oh yeah. I feel bad almost now.

[02:04:46] More I tell about it. We don't have time. We don't have time. We all support you. All right good. We have to do our Ramy rankings. Oh and then I'm going to run out of here and you guys can talk for

[02:04:56] as long as you like. Oh I got to see Elvis. David has to see Elvis. Another thing George amped by the Elvis trailer. Whoa. Well he's a star power. I know. The guy sang songs. I know and then

[02:05:06] after that. You had to explain like explain the hip swing thing to him right. Absolutely. Didn't know Elvis was a real guy. No did not know. All right here are my rankings. Number one Spider-Man

[02:05:16] two. Uh huh. Number two Evil Dead two. Number three A Simple Plan. Okay. Then I have number four Evil Dead. Number five Quick and the Dead. Uh huh. Number six Spider-Man. Okay. Number seven

[02:05:28] Drag Me to Hell. Number eight Army of Darkness. That might be a little low. Number nine Doctor Strange. Ten The Gift. Eleven Spider-Man three. Twelve For the Love of the Game. Four Love of the

[02:05:39] Game. Thirteen Crime Wave and Oz sitting there at the bottom. Wow. So that's my list. I'm gonna go Okay David's going to pee. I'm trying to organize this. Patrick do you have any Ramy submission thoughts as I. Ramy's mission thoughts. Um yeah so I don't have a tight

[02:05:56] ranking. I didn't come in prep. Yeah. I will say I have the same top three as David in a different order. Uh I think that's pretty. Ramy's like one of my guys. Yeah. I uh I am I am I was very happy

[02:06:08] to be asked to be on this series. I'm just like like like ever since like I was like I don't know thirteen or so. Yeah. I'm like one of my favorite directors. Um my my top one is Evil Dead two.

[02:06:18] Okay. Followed by Spider-Man two followed by A Simple Plan. Then I think I go Drag Me to Hell. Oh sure oh yes yes. Yeah that's up pretty high after that then maybe Spider-Man one then Army of Darkness then Quick and the Dead then the first Evil Dead.

[02:06:40] I don't even know where I am now. Uh yeah you're doing this all off dome. I I am. I haven't seen Oz since it was in theaters and I barely remember it. It's shit. It should be

[02:06:50] at the bottom of the list. We'll put that at the bottom and then I'll say above that for love of the game then Crime Wave then The Gift then Spider-Man three then Doctor Strange. Is that

[02:07:03] does I do them all? They're not numbered but I think I think I think I think you did. I think you did. Am I forgetting one? This is my ranking. I think I have them all Evil Dead two number one

[02:07:15] Spider-Man two Simple Plan then I go the Evil Dead Spider-Man Quick and the Dead Drag Me to Hell. We have the same seven in a slightly different order. Right then Army of Darkness

[02:07:27] then I go Spider-Man three rank higher than you. A little higher. For love of the game. Oh. Crime Wave. Oh. Then Doctor Strange. Whoa. Okay you had the Strange. Then Gift then Oz. Am I forgetting

[02:07:39] anything? No that's the whole list right yeah. Yeah uh Oz is the pits. Wait what about the Quibi show? Wow with the golden arm. We don't have time for this. David has to go. You guys talk. Yeah I

[02:07:50] know I know. I just want to say I love Sam Raimi. I think he's really cool and it's been so much fun talking about his movies and I wanted to make another movie in a year or two. Yes. That's

[02:07:58] mostly what I want out of this guy. Yeah I want him back in the game. Get your juices flowing good do Doctor Strange fine now give me some movies buddy. It's like I texted you. Time's passing. It feels

[02:08:08] like a Raimi movie. That's all you need and I was just like this thing's gonna make a buttload of money and even if it's a little divisive there are enough people who are so excited to see him doing

[02:08:18] his thing again that hopefully that will reinvigorate him and allow other people to give him money to do his thing. Patrick it was lovely to see you. You too. You guys talk as long as you

[02:08:27] want. I'll listen to the episode when it posts. I'll probably wrap it up. I don't know I think you guys could talk for 10 more minutes but I gotta go. Bye. Elvis what do we think? It's gonna be good?

[02:08:35] I'm into it. I hear it's deranged in good and bad ways. Yeah sounds good. Yeah. Bye. Look I think we should end the episode. Yeah oh well wait can I ask one thing? Anything. That's not

[02:08:46] about uh nerd shit at all. Is it about Ben? It's about Ben. What? Ben do you have any congratulations shirts I can buy?

[02:08:53] Yeah. Because I see you like once a year sometimes through like a computer screen like the first time I was on the show and I'm very invested in congratulations and I'm just like I've wanted a shirt for years.

[02:09:07] Alright we'll make it happen. Okay thank you. And I swear I'll have stuff online available for purchase some fucking day. Yeah some fucking day. Patrick Knight the Coconut. Yeah I made a movie that also involves a multiverse.

[02:09:21] Yes. With a you know a budget a tiny fraction of what this movie costs and yeah it's out there. It's on the streaming platform Nebula. It comes out I mean it is currently available. It's currently out.

[02:09:35] It's very silly. And people should really watch I mean all of your videos but the the Hudsucker one in particular is such a good fucking coda thing. I mean people were asking

[02:09:45] us why we didn't do Hudsucker as a bonus episode or at least that or whatever. Because like you might do the Coens at some point. But that's one of my favorite movies of all time and that sequence is the highlight.

[02:09:53] We are like the two lunatics who are like Hudsucker might be my favorite. It's my favorite. I would never argue it's the best but it's my favorite. It just like same for me it's just like it ticks all my boxes for like these little

[02:10:07] things that I just that just like really connect with me. Well on the blind check part of it where you're just like I cannot let believe they let the Coens build a miniature New York City at this scale.

[02:10:15] And the thing that I love is similar to like what happened five years later with the Wachowskis. Joel Silver comes in and is just like I love you and I will protect you and let you do whatever you want.

[02:10:26] Right. But like Matrix makes sense on paper as like if this works this will be a huge blockbuster and Hudsucker you're just like what's the version of this that you thought audiences would respond to?

[02:10:36] It's a movie that has the word Hudsucker in the title. Yes. That was never going to be a hit. What a beautiful film to appear for this world. Thank you for being on the show. My pleasure.

[02:11:44] I want to play Herbie in the Fantastic Four movie. Should we have a dossier cue? Like dossier time! No I think it is that. Yes.