Ferrari with Bilge Ebiri

[00:00:00] Clackjack with Griffin and David

[00:00:05] Clackjack with Griffin and David

[00:00:09] Don't know what to say or to expect

[00:00:12] All you need to know is that the name of the shot is by Jack

[00:00:22] You get into one of my podcasts

[00:00:24] You get into win But the last, the other version of this we cited was, unfortunately, it's been too long, the last time you were on the show, Nickel-T in Lorenzo's Royal, where it's like one of the most distinctive specific voices in the world, once again attempting an Italian accent on top of it, and your brain sort of starts to get scrambled, trying to listen to it.

[00:01:40] Yeah, well, I actually-

[00:01:42] You're doing one of my scores.

[00:01:43] I talked to Adam Driver about the accent in Ferrari.

[00:01:46] Okay.

[00:01:46] And this is why you're here.

[00:01:47] This is why fluid language. It's basically there so that it's not too distracting. That 95% of the cast is, in fact, Italian speaking English.

[00:03:02] And it would just sound really weird if the three lead actors did not have some sort of act. Through my hand. To this day, I think Kitele gives like one of the greatest performances of all time in that movie. I mean, second to Defoe, who gives like the greatest performance of all time, but nobody will ever acknowledge that Kitele is so good because they're distracted by, you know, I guess is, what is his queen's accent? And I'm like, what do you think Judas sounded like? You know, with a thick British accent?

[00:04:22] No.

[00:04:23] Silence.

[00:04:24] That is a film that's the Jean-Claude Van Damme of Sirius Actors. Yes, although, I mean, I love Liam Neeson, I do think he's a Sirius actor, but obviously. But another guy where you're like, could you imagine him trying to put a Mario accent on top of his niece and voice? He did a great job, and Mario.

[00:05:42] Like a movie?

[00:05:44] Oh, he does do a voice. Oh, that's right, yeah.

[00:05:45] When he's good cop, he's American. Yeah, yes. You're my baby Annette. I'm gonna make my baby sing. My baby Annette. You like Annette, right, though? I love it. It was my number one movie of that year. I like Annette. I like Annette. That movie said to me very well. Yeah, really, really. I think he rules Annette.

[00:07:00] Oh, yeah.

[00:07:01] I feel like I just need to get this out of the way right now.

[00:07:04] I really struggled with this performance.

[00:07:07] In Ferrari?

[00:07:07] Yeah.

[00:07:08] Okay. True. Who's something of a Michael Mann scholar. In fact, our final guest on the show, really weird. To cap it off. To cap it off. Black Cat, right. Yes. And then here's his first movie in seven years, eight years. Black Cat was 2015. 2015, so eight years. Yes. Yep. Obviously he did a TV pilot in between. Did he do anything else?

[00:08:20] Does luck happen pre or post pre-black?

[00:08:23] That's like 2013.

[00:08:24] Yeah.

[00:08:25] Yeah. We were like, yeah, you should, how long has it been? Like six months? And you were like, no, I was the last- The pandemic happened, right? You were the last in-person record. You were the last time we ever went into the audio boom offices to do the Lorenzo's oil episode. It's been far too long, but the great Bill Gebirie is here. Talk about Ferrari, a movie you said you have seen six times

[00:09:40] and you walked in- Okay.

[00:09:42] He walked in, David, he walked in and he said,

[00:09:44] I'm actually sorry, I meant to watch it again last night

[00:09:47] and I didn't disagreed on this year that you, I feel like often even with a movie that you are mixed on, but maybe people are fond of

[00:11:01] or there's you will then be like,

[00:11:03] wow, let me spend in a couple like nothing to do, nowhere to go. And I saw that there was a screening of Ferrari starting in like 10 minutes, I was like, fuck it, I'm gonna go see the Ferrari again. And then I got this call a few days later because I was supposed to interview Michael Mann

[00:12:20] in Modena while I was there at Venice.

[00:12:25] And I got a call from his people saying, Okay, so you saw it in Modena and you walked around Modena with Mr. Man later on, right? Yes, we can talk about that. That's great. Did you see it in New York? I did see it in New York. I saw it in New York because I just wanted to see it again and then I wanted to see it again again. So did you see it commercially ever? Did you go to a theater?

[00:13:40] No, it's not out yet.

[00:13:41] It's not out yet.

[00:13:42] I know it's not out yet.

[00:13:43] I know it's not out yet.

[00:13:44] Yeah, I mean, they were all screening rooms'm not going to lie. No, it was not Owen. It was a rando and it was crazy, but it didn't really disturb my viewing of the film, but it was odd. Yeah. And then I saw it again recently just to refresh because it's been a while.

[00:15:00] Yeah.

[00:15:01] So I saw this movie this time of year, especially when we me in the best environment possible with the context provided around it, with the filmmakers allowing to like put their own framework around it. And other times it's the worst feeling in the world to watch someone do a Q&A for a movie. You're like, I believe everything you were describing. And that's the relationship, the experience I wanted to have. And then I bring up the Q&A thing only because then man who seemingly has the, no man's brain has a greater capacity for information

[00:17:43] where you're just like, the fucking stats this guy

[00:17:45] rattles off for any question. didn't like initially or was somewhat underwhelmed by initially based on my anticipation of them. And then over the years, I just kept returning to them. And now, now at my age of innocence is one of the classic one for me, where, I mean, it was like one of the great disappointments of my life. Because it was like, like, one of my favorite novels, you know, my favorite directors,

[00:19:02] my three favorite actors working at that time. You know, and I'd heard that before he screen,

[00:20:04] some movies where I can read both the best and worst reviews and be like, this sounds like my shit.

[00:20:05] The things people are criticizing this movie for sound like I'd be into it and the things

[00:20:09] people are praising the movie for sound like I'd be into it.

[00:20:13] And so I just went in with a pretty settled, I'm probably going to connect to this.

[00:20:17] Yeah.

[00:20:18] For a movie that it feels like the response has been a little more, there's, I don't

[00:20:22] know if I'm reading anyone.

[00:20:24] Pretty muted.

[00:20:25] That's what I was going to say, But also, a lot of people are gonna walk out being like, well, I was about like a 50-something guy's marriage. Like, it right? Like, you know, also, not to flatten discourse. No, no, no, no, not to flatten discourse in this way, right? But like, the last, in the gap since Black Hat, I think there has been a growing appreciation

[00:21:41] for the like, Michael Mann just feel it, pure vibes.

[00:21:45] Don't get caught up in the logic.

[00:21:46] Right, but this is not that.

[00:21:47] No, so like the film I thought it was gonna be. Me too. See, this is the thing, I do too. This is one of those movies where I'm like, in talking about it, it's almost gonna be impossible for me to identify anything I found underwhelming about it. Cause just on a textual level, not even like what the movie is doing textual, but describing the way in which it's doing it,

[00:23:01] in the same way that when I read your review,

[00:23:03] I'm like, yeah, that sounds the thing. It's like- And their paragraphs long. Their paragraphs long and they make perfect sense and they're really insightful. The other thing I was gonna say about, no, sorry, the reason I was asking about his Q&A, because the thing he told me when I interviewed him that I found fascinating and I saved some of that from my interview for another piece I'm gonna write,

[00:24:20] but he was really obsessed about the fact

[00:24:25] that the film is I saw it, I didn't know anything about the Melemele race. And the... So they shouldn't have done that in my opinion.

[00:25:41] The race?

[00:25:42] Yeah.

[00:25:43] They shouldn't have been doing that.

[00:25:44] Racing is bad.

[00:25:45] Yes, same.

[00:25:46] I think the message of... depicted in a film in decades. And I'm like, that is not hyperbolic. No, when this thing happens, and we're assuming that everyone who listens to this episode is either seen the movie or is willing to have it ruined because it will be in a way or a business point. They've been talking about it candidly for months, which is sort of interesting. Like, man was candid about it in the first article about this movie of like, yeah,

[00:27:00] we depict the million million disaster.

[00:27:02] Incidents itself is truly horrific.

[00:27:04] And I think the film depicts it so incredibly he was talking about. Oh, no, but the thing was that, well, you would ask me what scenes in the movie made me cry. The first time I saw it because I didn't know this, that scene just absolutely wrecked me. It's devastating. And then of course, the scene early on when he visits his son's grave.

[00:28:21] And then different times, different other things

[00:28:24] have like really moved me.

[00:28:26] And the thing that really moves me now is, his dreams and that's like the one face he does want to see because everyone else he's in his dreams are people who died racing his cars. But after he leaves, because he's crying and then after he leaves, I don't know if he cruises, Laura comes in and she has this like long close up where she's like, she's

[00:29:40] looking at Dino and smiling. but I was just like not prepared for. It is one of those performances that someone comes on screen and immediately is tapping into like a well of emotion in an unshoey way that is- In an unshoey way. Yes. I mean, it's a shoey performance and that she's got it all over her face. Yeah. But this isn't like Vicki Christina,

[00:31:00] but she's not screaming.

[00:31:01] She's not screaming.

[00:31:02] But you're just like, oh my God, she is in dialogue

[00:31:03] with something that feels so honest and so profound

[00:31:06] and it is in get out of her rewatch. I mean, yeah. Just to be clear, to just set up for anyone who maybe didn't see the film. This film's called Ferrari. It's about Enzo Ferrari, the creator Ferrari.

[00:32:20] As Bill Gess says, it's announced in 2016.

[00:32:22] This is a long-dressing past-room project.

[00:32:24] Sure, I mean, we can do that.

[00:32:25] Yeah, we can do sort of the development of this movie,

[00:32:27] which is- I suppose already dissolved, but like his marriage entering a new crisis. Right. And the Mele Miliya, which was this insane race that he needed to win for his business and his marriage, but also ended in the biggest disaster of the history of Italian racing or whatever, like this horrible cataclysm. But like all the contradictions within this guy came to a head within such a short span

[00:33:43] of time.

[00:33:44] And then as you said, didn't result them.

[00:33:45] No, that's the thing. Right, yeah, but of course Ferrari's not working Howard Hughes into Dark Knight Rises where I did all this work that I need to put somewhere or Barry Lyndon like yeah, basically like basically says okay I have hopefully be a piece. David, do me a favor. Yeah. Picture that thing you've always wanted to learn. Okay. Name it. What is it? The art of love. Okay. Now picture you. They have one. Learning it from the person who's literally the best at it in the world.

[00:36:22] I bet you masterclass actually does have like X on the art of love.

[00:36:27] Yes.

[00:36:28] Right?

[00:36:28] Let's find out. David Lynch on filmmaking creativity. You got Helen Mirren and Samuel Jackson on acting. Yeah, you're sort of swerving us back to it on our podcast topic. Maybe a little more relevant. I also like wanting up the column of the love conversation. The thing about Masterclass is kind of fun is you start clicking on some of those verticals. You'll be surprised what you find. There's some cool stuff down there. The other thing with Masterclass, you get unlimited access to Intimate one-on-one classes with the

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[00:39:04] Get 15% off right now at MasterClass's pretty fun. Masterclass.com slash check. I mean, we did it. 15% off. That's right. I.

[00:40:21] So I also interviewed Michael, man, I didn't do as good a job as Bill.

[00:40:24] Oh, wait, we must.

[00:40:25] We'll see.

[00:40:26] I got this right after this. to that movie didn't work out and he feel like financially and he feels bad about anything. Yeah, yeah. But then between Black Hat and Ferrari, I feel like he then entered this weird phase of like everyone being like, you're the best man. We're talking about all your old movies. This is what I'm saying. You know, yeah. You know this real like, you know what? This guy is one of the living masters. And I'm sure he appreciates that, but he's also like,

[00:41:42] yeah, I'd like to also make some new shit before I go.

[00:41:44] The thing these guys get into this place very often

[00:41:47] where they're like promo mode too. And they're in promo mode so they don't want to be as candid. Even off the record, they're not candid, you know. Right. And new stuff. Unless you're Martin McDonough, one of my favorite interviews I ever did, the only guy

[00:43:01] to ever just physically hit stop on my record over and over again.

[00:43:05] That's great.

[00:43:06] Let me say this thing and I'll be like, all right Martin.

[00:43:07] That's the dream.

[00:43:08] It is awesome. for art. And the first thing he said was, yeah, I don't like how they're reading the subtitles when I want them to be looking at the actor's faces. So I've decided I'm gonna dub the movie for Italian release. Wow. And I was like, I mean, it sounds a lot of movies. Yeah, they dub movies. But the ideal for a lot of filmmakers is that they be subtitled.

[00:44:20] And he was just like, no, I'm gonna dub it.

[00:44:22] Don't look at my words.

[00:44:23] Yeah.

[00:44:24] Well, okay, so I don't know,

[00:44:26] so this script is credited to Troy Kennedy Martin, I mean, Bale's not insane, but he's a hardworking, intense dude. And I think that's why he winds up not doing the movie, because he's like, oh, I would have to gain like 50 pounds, or 100 pounds. He can't help but gain 50 pounds. Me, lad. The movie's voice box and replace it with it. Yeah, I mean, me, me, lad. I'm drivers just like, give me the fat suit. Give me a fucking pillow and all, yeah, you know, just sort of go like this.

[00:45:41] But there's a lot of that with Bale, where they're like,

[00:45:44] right, parts that you hear he's flirting with for a long time.

[00:45:46] And then he goes like, I couldn of liked it. I liked it. I feel like the reaction to that movie was muted. It was a Netflix release. So it doesn't exist. That hurts it, right. He did play a God killer in Thor, Love and Thunder. Oh sure. And he killed God's himself with his own hand. And he was the only good thing in that movie. I still have not seen that movie. It's the only Marvel Red Heaven thing. It's a dreadful film.

[00:47:01] But he's good.

[00:47:01] But he's good.

[00:47:03] He's genuinely invested in doing something in it.

[00:47:06] But he's like kind of playing like the child catcher. And when it all just becomes silly banana goofy bullshit, you're just like, does anyone care? Why am I watching this? You know? And as in all things, Christian Bale turns out to be the one person on set who cared. And then, you know, it is odd that Christian Bale ends up doing Ford V Ferrari basically instead of this. Yeah.

[00:48:20] And he's very good in that film.

[00:48:21] I think he's great in that film.

[00:48:22] And I also really like that movie,

[00:48:24] but it's like, yes, Mangold is Matt Damon and he's like, listen, just lose the race, it's fine, it'll be fine. Right, right. It'll be good for purpose. And Michael Mann is like driving the car and he's like, I'm gonna fucking kill myself. Yeah, like this is the dynamic. Yeah, and I think like James Mangold

[00:49:41] thinks of himself as like one of the last

[00:49:44] high-level journeyman filmmakers, right?

[00:49:47] Where it's like,'s gonna be this all tour. And then cop land doesn't quite do what it's, and then Harvey Weinstein kind of. Copland had too much baggage. It's Weinstein, it's like Ken Stallone be serious again. Like people were too, and it's a good movie. Yeah, it's a very good movie. But you're right though, I think there's a certain point at which, I hate psychoanalyzing directors like that,

[00:51:02] but I guess that's part of the job.

[00:51:04] It's also this podcast suggestion, yes.

[00:51:06] No, but like he, at some point I think he realizes into a different zone. And people forget about Logan. Like we talk about, I mean, we talk about like what a kind of monumental film like Black Panther was. Because of the Oscar nomination. And people forget about Logan. They do. Because I guess the X-Men franchise is so weird. But forgettable franchise. It won't go away.

[00:52:20] But that's even for like compared to Black Panther,

[00:52:22] Logan is still the only superhero movie

[00:52:24] to get a screenplay nomination.

[00:52:26] I think so.

[00:52:27] And let's go and let's whole strategy, I assume is partly based on like, well, maybe we'll sell tickets in Europe especially, right? And I think Jackman makes sense for that. I think in Europe more than in the States,

[00:53:41] Jackman's a pretty sunny actor, you know?

[00:53:43] He has more range than one.

[00:53:45] He does, I mean, I've got Logan to be three more.

[00:53:47] The prestige, you know. and Jackman makes perfect sense to be on that list. And then when, as you're setting up, it's like, okay, Jackman's attached, Paramount's dropped it. STX picks it up. They come in, yes, right. Right, with Jackman still involved, right. Yes, and you're like, okay shit, is this movie finally gonna happen? And then the pandemic killed it, I believe, or at least killed Jackman being in the right. And then there's this sort of like very sudden announcement. The movie's still happening,

[00:55:00] it's Am Driver, it's starting right away.

[00:55:02] Right, and Penelope Cruz and Shaleen Woodley of all people,

[00:55:05] and it's STX.

[00:55:07] Yes. He has like really stuck to no I'm like using my star power to get the movies off the ground that don't get made anymore The author the author's dream project It is wild that he has become the one guy David and I have texted about this But like he is like if in the 70s De Niro took every part that pachino hackman to fall and Hoffman played like he absorbed them all

[00:56:23] But beyond that that he seems to be the one guy relative to his foreign sales value because he's not trying to get like $20 million pay checks. He's just trying to build up an insane body of work and help these movies happen. He's also incredibly confident, I think.

[00:57:42] If you look at the performance in know, why is this your process? And the thing he said was, because I'm not a good enough actor to do it any other way, which I find very touching and incredibly revealing. Bail, basically I have read say the exact same thing in different words, where he's just like,

[00:59:01] if I'm not doing this amount of work,

[00:59:03] it feels like I'm not doing work.

[00:59:05] The job feels silly and frivolous to me.

[00:59:07] It's not even like a they come by this honestly. This is just how they work. They cannot work any other way. But yes, it does create this dynamic that's very different than driver

[01:00:20] where it just feels like you talk about him being confident.

[01:00:23] You look at just the work he's done over the last 10 years.

[01:00:27] You have to be called, right? This is a real thing, right? I guess it was a relatively common sort of term of respect in Italy, but I think I said this in my review. Ilkomendatorre is also the statue,

[01:01:41] the haunted statue that comes to life

[01:01:43] at the end of Danjivani, Mozart's Danjivani.

[01:02:45] Brad Pitt's 20 years older than Jesse James was when he died and looks at it. Sam Shepard is his brother and is like 30 years older than him.

[01:02:50] They were like, we're at 2.30 some things.

[01:02:52] You're like, no, you're not.

[01:02:54] I don't care. I watch it and I don't care.

[01:02:57] I remember seeing it with friends and being like,

[01:02:59] what the fuck? I'm like, it doesn't matter.

[01:03:01] I basically follow the mood.

[01:03:03] It doesn't matter. I don't care that him be this age where he can just roll this shit off of him, you know? Well, he's probably well. He will. Yeah, I mean, right. Driver's definitely not an actor where I'm like, this guy's gonna lose it as he gets older. I'm like, this is probably only a fat man.

[01:04:22] Well, it's like a Russell Crowe and Russell Crowe.

[01:04:24] This guy's useless.

[01:04:25] Like Russell Crowe and the inside.

[01:04:26] It's another one where it's like,

[01:04:27] he's so much a younger man playing with a man. what's it called? Dead can't dance, right? That was her big like electronic group in the 80s or whatever, Lisa Gerard. And he loves that score. He loves that score. He's a great score. He's talked about that score multiple times. When you were describing driver's performance just now the sort of ensemble around him, right? Right, right. The Ferrari guys. The guy cutting his hair is the son of the barber, the actual barber who ends a Ferrari's hair. She's leading his her own thing, which we can talk about.

[01:07:01] That's a little five-minute area we need to discuss, sure.

[01:07:04] But I think usually I want like, movie I've seen that is more mid-tones. Where it felt like the bigger stuff was smaller than it usually is and the smaller stuff to me felt bigger than it usually is. Interesting. If that makes any sense. I don't know. It is a quiet movie in surprising ways.

[01:08:22] Yeah, I think she's good. I kind of like it too. But it's obviously a bit of a swerve for Italian. Yeah. She's really not giving Italian to me. Again, stereotypical Italian.

[01:09:40] I understand Italians can be all kinds of people.

[01:09:42] But in a movie where people are, again,

[01:09:44] sipping espresso and getting haircuts, You can put her in the Italian countryside in the forest. Right, royal night out. Right, obviously, yes, David, as you said, all of these people have seen smartphones. Yes, well. But I do think there's something. I think the driver hasn't. It's believable that he might have done. He might have done, right. But something about Chylene feels very modern to me.

[01:11:00] And it's not a look thing, it's an energy thing.

[01:11:02] I think it's a fair point.

[01:11:03] But I think he wants her to feel modern.

[01:11:06] I think that's part of the idea there.

[01:11:07] I'm cool, they're feeling different.

[01:11:08] Right, right. performance is very quiet in a way that is effective, especially in contrast to Penelope Cruz and feels deliberate. But it also at certain times felt like she's like, if I speak really quietly, can people not hear if I'm doing the accent or not? Does it put less emphasis on it or whatever. You know, like sure it's a TIFF, but we're about to release it. I was not even gonna go, I was gonna go see Dix the Musical. And I got like, shut out of that, I think. That was what happened, I got shut out of it. Still never seen Dix the Musical.

[01:13:40] I don't-

[01:13:41] Some ally you are.

[01:13:42] Yes, seriously.

[01:13:43] And so I went to the Roy Thompson Hall,

[01:13:45] which is basically like God's punishment for movies, The mood is upsetting how well that movie gets the specifics of 2020. The dumb one, Danny. 2020 to 2021. Yeah. And you're just like, it gets the differences in each month of like how many things are open or what are the attitudes of people. It gets right the specifics of who's still wearing a mask at what point and who isn't.

[01:15:01] Right.

[01:15:02] Yes, all that shit.

[01:15:03] Yeah.

[01:15:04] You just felt right.

[01:15:05] And also just felt like it got the mood of us at that point in time by a good chunk of years? Right. Yeah, I mean, she's an exhausted mother herself, probably at this point, you know? Yeah, I just re-watched the descendants and... She's good enough. She's fantastic. I mean, that's when everyone thought she was the person. Yeah. And then following that with Spatacular Now,

[01:16:20] which is this like very real and like lovely,

[01:16:23] you know, young performance.

[01:16:25] And then the first divergent was big.

[01:16:27] And it was like, I guess she seems to be a crossover. Like the kids actually like. Box office. Right. They'll come out for her. Right. She's gonna do both. And then she's sort of just like floated a little bit. Like 2016, she's in Snowden in the dumb money role of like. Right. Oh, Snowden, how are you doing?

[01:17:41] Which is terrible.

[01:17:42] Right. And that really bad.

[01:17:43] That's a worse version of that role when you're like,

[01:17:46] it's actually way too early for you to be taking this. It does not shine as the saying goes. But she's not being that general about it. Is this a rich person thing that we have to do? Maybe, but she's like a compound. She's got the sort of... You need a lot of space. You know how some celebrities... You know, like, butthole tanning beaches where everybody's just got their......pitter-wrens up. Probably the only other side of that.

[01:19:00] Right, right.

[01:19:01] You always said of like cocaine is God's way of telling you you have too much money.

[01:19:04] Right.

[01:19:05] Is...

[01:19:06] Is...

[01:19:07] Is... of 2023. And an excellent film, but I just will, I do want to warn you that this is not really about how like the sex being had is often actually, you know, quite, you know, sort of complex and problematic. And it's, you know, it's about difficult situations that evolve. Like it's definitely not a manual or an. It's not an instruction manual, but it's a film that I would enjoy watching.

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[01:21:45] The plot of the movie people would be like, I spent so much money on this fucking car and I can't even start it. Like, and like it's because these cars were just not,

[01:23:00] you know, no one had figured this out yet.

[01:23:01] And that was just starting to figure out.

[01:23:02] Yeah, exactly.

[01:23:04] But this sort of flowing like some shake, you know,

[01:23:06] a fucking Ferrari that just raced and the guys like, actually, and I did not visit the fact. It's in your right, Maranello. Maranello, yes. Which is right in the province of Modena. So he's got the business, the creditors are breathing down his neck. He is getting ready for a race. He watches a guy race around a track. The guy fucking absolutely eats it

[01:24:20] and gets smashed against all the cars destroyed.

[01:24:22] His girlfriend is crying about it

[01:24:23] and the car is annoying.

[01:24:26] Right, so he's got that problem.

[01:24:27] Yes. And then she's fantastic. Who doesn't feel like she's acting and is incredible. So that's going on. And then of course he has a second child with another lady that his wife does not know about, but every single other citizen of Italy does know about it seems. Right. He's waking up in bed with Shilene Woodley,'s the one going to the bank, which seems to be in like one of 80 churches. The bank is the big marble building. And she owns half the business, right? Yes. You can't do anything without her. And then, right, and then he needs to win this race because the stakes are, if you win the race, your business is saved.

[01:27:00] Yeah.

[01:27:00] You can sell more cars, you can take out a,

[01:27:02] I don't know, whatever.

[01:27:03] And I guess there's sort of the notion

[01:27:04] of like he might sell to Fiat.

[01:27:07] Right, he might sell your partnership

[01:27:08] with a bigger company, The other thing though that really jumps out at me about this movie is that in some ways I think it's maybe man's most personal film. Okay. I mean because this is- Hit me with that. Yeah. Well, this is the only protagonist he has who could be called a creator of sorts.

[01:28:21] Sure.

[01:28:22] Sure.

[01:28:23] Yes, he's absolutely an artist.

[01:28:24] I mean he talks about design and there's you certainly hear that he's... Yeah, I mean, it's a basketball. I don't know how to put you up. I've heard the Ruffalo quote recently. His Downey Jr. actors on actors, but he said something to the effect of like... I'll find it.

[01:29:43] Because he was comparing him to Fincher. a half conversation with man. It was like the biggest thing I'd done, like the biggest Q&A I'd ever done. And I was also going through a period at the time when I was having like genuine panic attacks

[01:31:01] when I had to talk in front of anything more than two people.

[01:31:04] Hi, fucking get nervous, but I have a lot of nervous energy that I have to sort of work out. And so I'm sitting there in the dark. Meanwhile, he's pacing shadow boxing, like punching the air and like guzzling bottles of water, like just like just downing bottles of water. And I'm just sitting there going,

[01:32:20] I am not relaxed at all.

[01:32:22] Right, this is not helping you like calm down.

[01:32:25] But as you said, he does like his girlfriend and his mom. So annoying, you know.

[01:33:41] But I do think that, I mean, these people aren't necessarily

[01:33:44] always aware of how much they relate to these characters. biopicky of those four movies, but it's some of you with the shootouts and car chases and Tommy guns. And it's one of those things where it's like, I weirdly going back to Jesse James again, but like Andrew Dominic talked about, like developing a bunch of movies that he couldn't get off the ground after Chopper, right? Which didn't do well here, but it was a big calling card movie. And his like agent was like, come on, we gotta get something we can sell.

[01:35:01] And he's like, well, I read this book on Jesse James.

[01:35:03] I like it.

[01:35:04] Jesse James, I can say.

[01:35:05] I heard of that guy.

[01:35:06] Right.

[01:35:07] And he was like, well, my Ferrari. It was like, no one even thought about it. They were just like, Jesse James, Brad Pitt, done.

[01:36:22] Yeah.

[01:36:23] He could point to the book as many times as you want.

[01:36:25] Brad Pitt's main character and he was like,

[01:36:26] yeah, sure, he's a different race. Yeah. It's brief. Right. And they actually perform poorly at that race. Right. So which then sets up the millimeter as being like even more important. Obviously he brings in Patrick Dempsey, who is a real race car driver basically, right?

[01:37:40] Yeah.

[01:37:41] And he's one of those actors who just does this.

[01:37:42] And he's been trying to make a race car movie for a long time.

[01:37:45] To play Pierre Roto Tarroufi.

[01:37:47] Tarroufi. Yeah. And I remember seeing startup and go, holy shit, this fucking guy, undeniable. And next year, he's got fucking unbroken. And it was like, if this is what he did in startup, an unbroken a year out looked like the cannot beat Oscar front-run. Yeah, I remember that. You're like, can you believe this story? And it's Jolie, and she's kind of developing her muscles as a director,

[01:39:00] and the co-ins wrote it.

[01:39:02] The movies are hit. It does nothing for his career.

[01:39:05] Because nobody actually liked that.

[01:39:07] No. But it. Marriage is death. Like there are three wings. And you can go look up like Charles Dickens's birth certificate, because they've been keeping these records. And I would pull everyone, every minor British celebrities birth certificate for them, including Blake Field or Civil.

[01:40:20] I just don't think that's a role that's going to help him.

[01:40:22] I was going to say, I think that is good casting and it's not going to help him.

[01:40:25] And he's probably, you know, suffering a conical. I think basically, I mean, what's good that is a good point. That's a good point. I've got a favorite kind of hair. Yeah. You're right, but it's been a while, I guess. And with Dreamy, it's basically the exact same hairstyle

[01:41:43] just in shock light versus driver you're just like,

[01:41:47] what is this?

[01:41:48] I was even googling both. What do you mean I'm breaking down? I wish I could do him. Ferrari and private parts would be actually a really interesting double feature. Go on. Okay. Driven, powerful, influential artists. You could almost imagine pig vomit walking into a Ferrari. Yeah. And schooling them on the correct pronunciations of things.

[01:43:00] Stop racing.

[01:43:02] WNBC.

[01:43:03] But I mean, going back to driver for a moment.

[01:43:07] I should clarify.

[01:43:08] I think this is the best performance he's ever given. Like I just can't believe he made a $95 million movie where the most tense and evolving sequences are him and Penelope Cruz. Basically in a love list marriage because they do sort of have sex. Like there is like there's passion between them. There's intense emotion between them but it's not a functional. Facing each other down. Like those are the sequences where I'm gripping my seat the most maybe.

[01:44:20] That or me going like why is this guy filming the screen?

[01:44:23] And the manola just diving towards him.

[01:44:26] I heard that's what Michael Mann's next movie

[01:44:27] is gonna be about.

[01:44:28] That's the guy you watch it once?

[01:45:41] I just saw it the one time.

[01:45:42] Okay.

[01:45:43] See, that's an example.

[01:45:44] No, because I was mixed on it when I first saw it.

[01:45:46] No.

[01:45:46] And as I kept going back to it,

[01:45:48] it became my favorite movie of that year. what he's doing. All right, now I'm trying to think of who think they're telling jokes and are just ranting about things. I'm trying to think of 50-something actors who could play Ferrari now. This is the thing, I don't have. Like, so it's like Clooney, you know, like guys like this, like Colin Firth, fucking. But then I'm like, these guys are all Daniel Craig. Two swab, right? Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, there's something about like,

[01:47:00] if he is more conventionally,

[01:47:02] and Christian Bell's obviously a very handsome guy,

[01:47:05] but there's that innate coldness to him.

[01:47:07] Ray Fiennes? in Ferrari so far, if there are any. The church scene, the church intercut with the workers mass intercut with the- Oh, the stopwatches. Yeah, the stopwatches. The stopwatches. You know, the priest sermon, which is basically about how, you know, if Jesus lived today,

[01:48:20] he would be a metal worker at the Ferrari factory.

[01:48:24] The sort of, all the stuff where you're and then it provides it with a level of beauty, which is fascinating for a guy who at times was slam for being like substance, obsessive substance over entertainment and at other times was slam for being style over substance. Yeah, and of just like, I'm gonna shoot so much and it'll all get figured out later. But why dig into all of that if you're not gonna make the effort of communicating any of that to us? Why put that work under the hood, right? Because I think people like this believe that that work,

[01:51:01] like there's an intuitive connection

[01:51:03] that makes the viewers, yeah, right?

[01:51:05] That's the confession of that scene with the sun.

[01:51:07] Yeah, that's true.

[01:51:08] Yeah, yeah. he was in high school, he dated one of man's daughters. Wow. And it was actually a very sweet story. He said, Talk about him eat the parents remake, I honestly. Well, that's the thing. He said he went out to dinner with them once. And then on the way back, Michael Mann said, here I'll drive you home. And Michael Mann had his Ferrari with him.

[01:52:22] And he drove this guy home in his Ferrari,

[01:52:26] just like gluing it.

[01:52:28] Yeah. and went, where's he from? And I was like, what's he fucking Chicago? That'd be the most Chicago person ever. It's the first one. It's the first one from that Michael Mann sounds like he's from Chicago. This is like hearing Mick Jagger and being like, where's he from? Where's he from? What is he Spanish? The way he says, blax, when I was talking to him about the Prince, the Dolby Prince,

[01:53:41] he was describing the difference between

[01:53:42] a Dolby Prince and a laser Prince to me, I think.

[01:53:45] That's what it was.

[01:53:46] I have the transcript and I think that's what it is. It is an Amazon show. Michael Man City cast him from that. Very handsome. Very much like a young Italian race car driver. I think he's Spanish, but like he's got the vibe of like, what? And that's one of the liberties I think this movie kind of takes

[01:55:01] is DiPortago, at the time.

[01:55:03] He's Brazilian, I'm sorry.

[01:55:04] Oh, he's like, oh, short ride with me. It's insane that, I mean, the answer, you're like, how do people not die doing this? The answer is like they did it, died all the time. They did it, they did it, they did it. And like, it's like, it's just after World War II and everyone was just like closer to this stuff. Well, it's fascinating to us. It's just like, I was sure, like, we live in this chaotic time.

[01:56:22] A sport where everyone accepts, you got to break a few eggs to make an omelet, except the eggs are going like,

[01:56:26] please let me break myself. is very distressing. Beyond absurd. It's depicted, I was really worried, I think that it would be like gory or something. That's the scary thing is it's not gory. It happens so quickly. It happens so quickly. It's so quickly. And then the sort of carnage afterward is sort of horrifying to behold.

[01:57:40] But it's honestly, emotionally, you know,

[01:57:42] obviously just way more devastating

[01:57:44] than actually like what you're seeing.

[01:57:46] Well, because also-

[01:57:46] But what you're seeing is bad. masterful stuff. Now, I want to say, I was not asking for any conventional sense of resolution from this movie. I am into Michael Mann's characters living in emotionally unresolved gray spaces, right? Either dying, you know, by the side of highways or on public transit unresolved, or just continuing on with their life unresolved, or whatever that is. But at this moment in the

[01:59:04] movie, when this happens, and I did not going to happen and you have to like divorce yourself from it. And we see- And he treats the press like hostile, you know, people basically. Is it a matter of the- And we see how upset he is.

[02:00:20] That's the other thing.

[02:00:21] I mean, we see how it's,

[02:00:22] and in fact, even with that,

[02:00:23] the test driver who dies, not the test driver,

[02:00:25] but during the test drive, the guy who dies early.

[02:00:27] And it makes me in front of the fact

[02:00:27] that he doesn't seem to care at all.

[02:00:28] Obviously it affects him. not give a shit other people's families are dying and the current you're you're letterboxed uh... line on this day that was like michael man it makes another movie about masculinity is a cage but i didn't say that in an angry way i said that happy with no you know you but you said with multiple exclamation points and swimming hard i amojis uh... that's going to be being a prison i mean it just feels like and so and

[02:01:42] uh... or both like imprisoned in this moment no more like and i think most of that allow them the control. It's why manhunter was interesting. I'm sure which is basically a bad man who feels too much. Right, you know, like it's, you're 100% right. A guy who feels too much, and the manhunter character is the guy who doesn't build the protective wall around himself and he's fucked. Like he's dead inside. He's let the world kill him basically. Right. Whereas these other guys, it's like, Enzo's like, oh no, too bad someone died.

[02:03:02] And you're like, this guy's overcome with emotion.

[02:03:04] Collateral's like about is this woman different from the other ones? When they're talking to Shilene Woodley and he's like, I fell in love with her, I'm still in love with her. And it's like, that's the most devastating thing he can possibly say.

[02:04:21] And you believe that he means it,

[02:04:22] but also he doesn't even really project that energy

[02:04:26] when he says want to know. She could know, right?

[02:05:40] Like she's been holding.

[02:05:41] She's not looking.

[02:05:42] Right, yeah, yeah.

[02:05:43] She's been not looking.

[02:05:44] The guy at the bank just so directly waves it

[02:05:46] in front of her face by mistake,

[02:05:47] she can't ignore it.

[02:05:48] It has to. I didn't get the sense that the Italian press was particularly into the movie, but. But they didn't like anything. Yeah, they don't like anything. Yeah, they always fucking whining those fans. They love Five Nights at Freddy's, didn't they? Yeah. Like, it was like, what, the killer Ferrari, they're like, maestro, all these movies that kind of just went over like lead balloons and then. But then poor things had like the most rapture

[02:07:00] of your response of any movie effort.

[02:07:02] It's a very European movie.

[02:07:03] Yeah, yeah.

[02:07:05] I mean, I was myself not the biggest fan of maestro

[02:07:08] or the killers. I went like, no thank you. But this is not the kind of bait and switch that the American is. Not that I'm a digger. The American is, I mean, like two hours of George Clooney assembling a gun. He sure he fucking files down the bits and pieces. He screws things in. I mean, I think actually the last trailer I saw for Ferrari, I think does a good job of conveying the kind of movie it is.

[02:08:20] Yes, he does not.

[02:08:21] And it has big emotions.

[02:08:22] I mean, it has great racing sequences.

[02:08:24] It does.

[02:08:25] You know, I think it's about very, very distressing things. But also that was the era where more movies had the sort of Oppenheimer thing of like, we have a cultural obligation to see this. This is a major director working on a major subject. Big deal. Yes. But okay, so there's Wonka. There's, Aquaman 2. The Law School. There's migration.

[02:09:43] Yeah. I still don't know what that movie is. It that trailer might have actually taken 10 million out of the box. Yeah, but all of the migration trailers do that. And you're like, this isn't even like the teaser trailer a year out. This movie's coming out in the trailers like 40% minions.

[02:11:02] 20% secretly.

[02:11:03] Yeah, it's like, yeah, right.

[02:11:05] It's like, and they're like the balloons. Like, and it, you know. Or like, what was it called? The Search for Noah's Ark? Well, I love those. Oh, you know what they say? They're so pseudo-scientific nonsense, right? But you're like a thing that could only exist in a pre-internet era where they bought a bunch of TV ads and people were like, fuck, they might have actually found it, but no one could communicate that the movie

[02:12:20] was full of shit once the screening started.

[02:12:22] They made us watch that fucking thing.

[02:12:23] Everyone had to find out for themselves.

[02:12:25] Everyone had to go and see it and be like,

[02:12:28] I wish someone had told me. until the second week of January, and there's kind of nothing else in January. Yes, that's obviously the other thing is, it's just we have this weird winter ahead of like not a lot of movies. Like if I'm Netflix, I would put Rebel Moon in theaters, but I'm not. I put the hitman in theaters. Remember when they made that fucking deal because they wanted to,

[02:13:40] a guarantee would come out by the end of 2023,

[02:13:42] and that's why they claimed they took Netflix

[02:13:44] over the other distributors who would have held it

[02:13:46] until 24, and now the movie isn't going on Netflix here. Right. As, as, as, as, as, this episode is airing at people here a week or so. Yeah. So we'll look like idiots if we predict anything. We will. We will. And yet I'm addicted to the fun idea. Yeah. Will Michael Mann make heat too? He wrote this book. He really wants to make heat. With the collaborative. The idea sounds crazy to me. Yeah.

[02:15:00] What? What? What's the idea?

[02:15:02] I thought Top Gun Maverick was crazy, too. You know, I mean, yes.

[02:15:05] So it's basically a prequel and sequel, right?

[02:15:07] Have you read that? Do you have it? I wonder if he's thinking we'll do the prequel. Yes. Like... That's a film. Right, because at the time, at the time, I interviewed him also, the strike was still on. So he was kind of like, like he could talk about stuff like, oh, you know... You could be like, I love Dan and Driver who I just worked with in this movie that's a waiver. Right. But also, if you press a period set of events they're doing together, they still basically

[02:16:22] keep on saying like, wouldn't it be fun if we did...

[02:16:25] To be together.

[02:16:26] Right.

[02:16:27] Assuming Driver would be playing De Niro.

[02:16:28] Yeah. whose cultural value just keeps increasing. Right, I mean, I'd watch a Miami Vice sequel. Well, we all watch. Okay, what is the, okay. So you'd have to, that is so crazy to me because it's like, you'd have to get feral on board. Now, Colin Farrell's stock is kind of hotter than ever.

[02:17:40] That movie represents a tough time in his life.

[02:17:42] His personal life.

[02:17:42] Well, you could pretend like he never made it

[02:17:44] because he doesn't remember making it.

[02:17:46] Yeah, you could be like, we're making Miami Vice too.

[02:17:48] You don't say the two. I just like the cat experiment. Yeah, no. Naomi Harris is harder than ever. Justin Thoreau, get him back. Yeah. Fucking the guy from the wire, everyone loves him. Barry Shabaka Henley is like, did he make it? Yeah, he, he still, wait, didn't he die? No. Okay, no, no, no. No, no, right. What are you talking about? Barry Shabaka Henley, no, he's sold. Barry Shabaka Henley, okay, just checking.

[02:19:00] Okay, okay, okay.

[02:19:01] You're really scared being for a second there.

[02:19:03] Well, cause he played, you know, he played Cassilla, right?

[02:19:06] Like it's an important role.

[02:19:08] Okay. I'll see it. Yeah. Yeah. I weirdly would not be worried about the legacy of heat being affected by a heat sequel, if that makes sense. It's also the fact that he like soft launched it with the book, you know, where it's like, okay, so people have had their time to like sit with his notions of the continuation and people generally like the book.

[02:20:20] And the book is fascinating.

[02:20:21] I mean, the book reads like, you know,

[02:20:24] like somebody just like Michael Mann just like opened

[02:20:27] up his brain and just like something I would enjoy. And I went and saw it and I enjoyed it, but I was mixed on it.

[02:21:40] I mean, I was 14.

[02:21:43] And then over the years as I kept revisiting,

[02:21:45] I was like, no, no, this is actually one

[02:21:46] of the greatest films I've ever seen.

[02:21:48] Bill Guy, I just have to. When I put up on Hummer on my list, someone at Universal emailed me the same day being like, hey, what's your address? And then he replied You know what badlands was the first one I saw, which I love. It's a great movie. But Finn Red Line was the first one where I was like this I understand this on some level I can't articulate. That was I saw New World and theater. The fucking rocks. I saw it in

[02:24:20] those three days before they removed the first. They're like, it was like,

[02:25:41] people who've been through.

[02:25:42] It was people who'd been doing a battle together.

[02:25:45] I was in high school when I came out

[02:25:47] and I think I saw it four times in theaters David, if he makes a new film, would we cover if that Napoleon series ever happened? Ooh, interesting. Assuming Fukunaga is probably not involved. That's a real, we make a decision closer to it. You guys did do fear and desire, right? On the Cooper fashion. Yeah. Yeah. We did fascinating things on that film.

[02:27:00] Which is also the best.

[02:27:01] Not the best.

[02:27:02] There's like a new 4K restoration.

[02:27:04] That is well.

[02:27:05] Getting re-released. about the podcast and directors we covered and brought up Kubrick and they said, have you seen fear and desire? And I went, yeah, no, we do. If we cover someone, we cover them and he said, my mother or grandmother is the woman in fear and desire. Oh, wow. The tree tied to the tree, right? Yes. And it was this like thing that for so long, we were like,

[02:28:20] she was in Kubrick's first movie and none of us can see it.

[02:28:24] That's cool.

[02:28:24] And then finally got to see it. Anyway, if you're that person, remind me who you were, She sent me that photo and it was followed by a phone call of my phone caught on fire. Can you come over and fix it? My TV is spitting at me. We could talk about Poetic films that alienated audiences on sitting on their release people's grandmothers in early Kind of the blank check ethos that's what you get to do after I think there's I do think there's a whole generation of

[02:29:44] Kids like me and Griffin who when like the those malak movies came out

[02:30:41] stepped on the joke I want to make. Oh, what were you about to say?

[02:30:42] You said I'll never remat it him because of Thin Red Line.

[02:30:46] I was going to say that's how I feel about him and sound

[02:30:48] a freedom and then you called out the freedom as of a mistake.

[02:30:50] Well, that's what I was thinking of.

[02:30:52] Right.

[02:30:52] I was going to play the role of the fool.

[02:30:54] You understand the comedic archetype of the fool?

[02:30:56] He made some good movies.

[02:30:57] He's the one to go.

[02:30:58] He's still a great.

[02:31:03] He just seems like a bit of an aggro dude, but you know,

[02:31:06] him getting in the water right now.

[02:31:07] He might be unwell.

[02:31:08] I think he might be unwell. with relaxing voices. And she feels like you're elleing on the profile. That's going on the profile. That's going on the profile. That's going on the profile. That's going on the profile. That's going on the profile. That's going on the profile. That's going on the profile. That's going on the profile. That's going on the profile. That's going on the profile. That's going on the profile. That's going on the profile. That's going on the profile. That's going on the profile. That's going on the profile. That's going on the profile. That's going on the profile.

[02:32:20] That's going on the profile.

[02:32:20] That's going on the profile.

[02:32:21] That's going on the profile.

[02:32:22] That's going on the profile.

[02:32:23] That's going on the profile.

[02:32:24] That's going on the profile.

[02:32:25] That's going on the profile.

[02:32:25] That's going on the profile.

[02:32:26] That's going on the profile.

[02:32:27] That's going on the profile.

[02:32:28] That's going on the profile.

[02:32:29] That's going's the rare one and done for you. That's back when I was only watching movies once. Okay. My salad years. Wow. Wow. Well, you can check

[02:33:40] that out. And as always, I need to offer a very important correction. Shilene Woodley's