Hulk

[00:00:00] Hulk, Hulk, Hulk, Hulk, Hulk, Hulk, Hulk, Hulk, Hulk, Hulk Hulk I'm Eric Vanna! I'm the Hulk! Hulk, Hulk, Hulk, Hulk, Hulk, Hulk, Hulk, Hulk, Hulk Here is Nick Noltee! He's my dad! He messed with my jeans! Now I turn green.

[00:00:33] He also fights in the clouds and he made some Hulk dogs. Hulking the Hulk. They're making me podcast. Okay. You wouldn't like me when I podcast. I figured you'd do Nolty. Well, I'm gonna do a lot more Nolty as we get into this. Cause it's like your thing.

[00:00:54] I'm gonna go with the most iconic. Does he say you wouldn't like me? Is he say that right at the end? He yes. Cause he only says you're making me angry the first time. It's a towel bit and at the end he says it in Spanish.

[00:01:07] I took some creative license. No, I'm not criticizing you. I'm criticizing the movie. You impossible. You can't criticize this movie. True. It's an American master. Can I just... This is sort of a tangent rant. Let's just begin with it. Right off the bat. You know what I mean?

[00:01:21] Where movies feel obligated to say a lie. Right? You know, sometimes this happens. Yes. Oh, that's the iconic line. And they try and find like a cute way to do it. Sometimes it's just a little too cute. Like, oh, we'll have him say it in Spanish.

[00:01:35] Like BBA, like, oh, he'll say I'm a bad feeling about this. We slipped it in there and you're like, uh-huh. But the first time he says it, even though he doesn't finish it, it's pretty earned. It is. Yes. Yes. Hello everybody. My name is Griffin Newman. David Sems.

[00:01:50] This is Blank Check with Griffin and David. It's a podcast about filmography. He's director of Massive Success early on in their career and given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion products they want. And sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce, baby. Right?

[00:02:03] And sometimes they clear and then bounce with this one. Yeah. Sometimes they leap. This one looked like it had cleared. And then it was like, oh, oh, oh, yes. But sometimes your checks bounce through the desert long. Yep. And a cluster bomb hits them.

[00:02:16] Parking bounces, your eyes close, the wind pushing against your green face. This is the first big blank check movie. No, no, because I'd say Ride With The Devil. Ride With The Devil, sort of. But that's like a small blank check. Right.

[00:02:31] But it's a funny one because it's like also, like when he signed on so many people were like, oh, what has become, you know, of cinema that like this great director is going to do a superhero movie. Like, it was a real thing. Yeah.

[00:02:45] So is it a blank check? It's 100% a blank check. I mean, it is. The product is. Yes. Especially when you read what this movie had been in the previous stages of development for the decade leading up to this. Agreed.

[00:02:59] But I guess my counter argument is like after Spider-Man, or no, I guess Spider-Man, no, Spider-Man, yeah, was, was going to be a hit. They started before Spider-Man. We know that we talked about it. Yes. But still, I guess after X minutes stuff like a studio,

[00:03:13] you know, giving you money to make a Hulk movie is like they do that. Right? I got anecdotes. We're going to get into it. The movie we're talking about today, it's got a one word title. Don't you miss title this movie because people do and I hate it.

[00:03:27] I'm not looking at you producer Rachel. Yeah, that's right. She doesn't have a mic so she can just shrug. We got producer Rachel here, the queen of the shrugs. Because Ben is late. Ben is late. He forgot when we were recording in a real Griff move. Yeah, really?

[00:03:41] It was a nice like send off to you. And we got Rachel who takes none of our bullshit. That is true. Rachel is the Hulk of audio boom. We make her angry. She's wearing sort of a greenish hoodie. She is. And drink it up a purple bottle.

[00:03:55] Green and purple. The whole colors. Yeah. Don't you feel like you have to be like more well-behaved? I guess this applies more for me than you. Yes. When Rachel's here. Yes. We're just like sitting up straight. I know we're sitting up straight. We're like let's have a discussion.

[00:04:10] We're serious men. Of course, we're hashtag the two friends. The two serious men. The two hashtag the two serious men is a competitive event. No podcast feature. Self-serious young white men. Right. This is amazing. The film we're talking about, well no you were setting up the

[00:04:26] title and then we went on a long tangent. Yeah. The title of this movie is Hulk. It is Hulk. Hulk. Which is now that I never thought about it but it is odd that it's just called Hulk. Because it was announced as the Hulk and then they were

[00:04:38] like na na na na na na. Lose the the. Yeah. It's cleaner. Yeah. Sean Parker was a producer on this movie. Yeah. Doing a mini series on the films of Ang Lee. It's called Broke Pod Mountcast. Right. Yeah.

[00:04:55] Every time I'm preparing to say the title of the mini series. You always forget if it's Pod Broke Mount. No. I just worry I'm going to fuck it up and it feels like I've just noticed a deer in the middle of the road.

[00:05:06] Like I'm trying to slow down or swerve around it. Broke Pod Mountcast. You did it. I did it. This is my favorite Ang Lee film by a nautical mile. That's that's interesting. It's not my favorite Ang Lee film. No, but you know I love this film.

[00:05:22] I don't know. I know it's a favorite of yours. I don't know if I'd argue it's his best. Sure. Like you know qualitatively but I. He's made so many good movies. He's made a lot of this podcast has been huge for me in terms of like. Realizing how.

[00:05:38] Re-watching all this movie exactly and just being like wow like he's not like an eight out of ten director. He's like a consistent nine or ten out of ten. Fastballs. Yeah, he really does. Yeah, I mean the latter half is a little mixed. Gets a little game here.

[00:05:51] Yeah, this first half is a bit of joy. Yeah, it really has been. Yeah, and we might go against the popular consensus and some of the later half stuff. Maybe you think so. You thinking of life of pie?

[00:06:04] Yeah, because I think that's the only one where there is a popular. I mean unless you hate Broke Back Mountain. Yeah, maybe I've maybe you've been nursing that and you're like. I mean, I think there are certain types of people who hate Broke Back Mountain. Okay.

[00:06:19] I don't know, Broke Back Hater? No, I mean like you remember at the time like all the people were like John Wayne would be spitting in his grave. Fakely. Hate of those people. A bunch of David Banners they were. A bunch of David Banners they were. The Hulk.

[00:06:38] The David Banner. Yeah, he's the dad. He's the absorbing man. I don't know. He's kind of and he's kind of yeah. He's I don't know. He's a little bit maestro. Yeah, yeah. He's not a villain in the they didn't choose one of the Hulk's villains.

[00:06:57] I guess Thunderbolt Ross, but apart from that like they didn't dip into the Hulk's like villain pool really. No, I think at the comics, his name is Brian Banner. Yes. David Banner was the name of the alter ego in the Bill Bixby show. Yes. He wasn't Bruce.

[00:07:14] I know because of some weird. Yeah. I can't remember what the reason for it. Was it a copyright reason or did they just think like Bruce is a bad name? Sounds like a hippie. Exactly. I need a good strong man like David. Yeah.

[00:07:27] Hey, well hey, ask me if David sounds pretty weak. Yep, you're right. But they they combine the name with the old character arc and then gave him sort of powers of a different character. Yeah, which would never happen. I wouldn't fly now. Yeah. Weirdly.

[00:07:46] You know what kind of weirdly is similar? Iron Man 2 whiplash is kind of Crimson Dynamo. Yes. They kind of mashed those two up 100% they did. Yeah. No, they've done it in Marvel, but the only time they did it to a major character was the Mandarin thing. Yeah.

[00:08:02] And that the people were mad about that, even though that was like the right call. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like dorky like action figure message boards. People talk about buying the Mandarin toys and then being like, but I'm going to pretend it's the real

[00:08:17] guy when I put it on my shelf. I'm going to pretend it's the real guy. It's like whatever helps you sleep at night. Shut the fuck up. I'm just letting you sit in your my action figure message boards. That's monologue.

[00:08:30] That is the 15th least embarrassing thing I've said this hour. I know. Yes. Yeah. And you like, you know, got coffee this morning probably and said six embarrassing things. Yeah. I said extra raspberry please. Hulk. Hulk. 2003. Hulk. We were going to do hulking the Hulk way back when.

[00:08:51] Right. Yeah. So yeah, this was going to be one of our first one-offs when we were still in the Star Wars days. Yeah. Because I think this is like. It's a fascinating movie. We both think this is like a totally fascinating movie and such a.

[00:09:06] Only gotten more fascinating as the like superhero genre emerged after it like. Right. And I think this is exactly the kind of movie you only get to make when industry's in a weird transitional state. Sure. Right. Trying to figure out what these movies even are. Exactly.

[00:09:23] You haven't really cast the die yet or set the mold for these things. But also this is the kind of movie you get to make when you direct a foreign language film that makes 120 million dollars. For sure. Right. Exactly. And that's like the blank check phenomenon that

[00:09:37] you and I talk about which isn't just like. Oh, I made a hit. It's like how did that work? Right. You did something that on paper would never go. Right. So the studio just has to give you money because they can't rip you off.

[00:09:50] They're like they figured something out. We need to give them another at bat. And beyond that, it's like they can. They'll even give you a property like this one. A beloved comic book character. Right. And you're going to say like I'm going to do these

[00:10:03] five things that a lesser director would just get slapped down for ass. And this is a movie that was in development hell for decades. Right. So it's not like people had come with takes and the studio would always be like, no, I don't think so.

[00:10:16] You know, like so and Ang Lee is like, yeah, I want it to look like a comic book and it's going to be about like boiling Freudian rage. And like I'll play the Hulk and they're like, Yeah, do it. That's like what's fascinating about this movie is he

[00:10:30] like plays both extremes where it's like you have these dramatic scenes that you would never see in a comic book movie ever again. But then he visually designs those scenes to look like a comic book. It's crazy. It's like a crazy movie to watch.

[00:10:44] So much of this movie is Jennifer Connelly talking to her father. Yeah, a lot of it. Yeah. Like I was watching this time. I forgot how quickly it all goes down in this movie. I love but then also it takes 45 minutes for the Hulk to show up.

[00:10:57] That's the thing. It's a long ass movie to 20 you don't get much time with Bruce like before like the accident. No, I mean like you get like five minutes with him and then post accident. One of them is like a bit about his bike helmet. Post accident.

[00:11:12] You get a lot of Betty time. A lot of Betty and not much Bruce. But I think she's kind of a cipher. Like, you know he's hard to understand. He's kind of lead this movie kind of but she is, you know,

[00:11:23] she gets a little, I mean it's a thankless role in every version of the whole. Yes, it's a tough role kills it though. She's good. She's good. She's coming off an Oscar herself. Yes. This was like her media follow pretty much.

[00:11:37] So a little bit of context because I don't know if you know this but we're kind of sewers. In the late 80s, early 90s, more than 90s when, you know, Marvel was in dire financial straits. The big thing that happens at Marvel is they had been

[00:12:01] mismanaged by Ron Perlman, not Hellboy the other one. Right. The one, P-E-R-L. No, no, P-E-R-L is the good one, I think. I think no, are they both? I think our actor friend has an A in his name. He does not. I just double check.

[00:12:21] It's the other way around. Rachel shaking her head. It's the one. Rachel has such contempt for us. Yeah, as she should. It's the one spelled like, you know, the thing from the ocean. Yes. So I don't fucking know. He buys. There's also Lou Perlman.

[00:12:38] There's a lot of bad Perlman. Yes. He buys Marvel nearly runs it into the ground. You know what? It's spelled the same way. Okay, well let's talk about this for 15 more minutes. He nearly runs the company into the ground. You know what? It's spelled Perlman.

[00:12:54] I finally figured it out. It's just hard to figure out. P-E-R-E-L. Yeah. Okay, great. Right. Is he the one who owns like the toy company? Well, that's like Pearl Mudder. Yes, thank you. Okay. So the one that's called Pearl Mudder, Avia Rod, are toy guys.

[00:13:11] Are they the ones who rescue Marvel? This is what I'm telling you. Okay, go ahead. Yes, yeah. So Perlman nearly runs Marvel into the ground. And that's in the mid-90s, like after the speculation boom when comics are hot in the early 90s.

[00:13:24] So they're like, let's make so many comics. Like this will go forever. Darkhawk. Like, you know, they're just throwing shit out there. But they don't even get into trouble like early 90s, you know? The speculation boom is... It's a bubble that collapsed.

[00:13:38] You think of X-Men issue one, which I think is 91 where they had like 12 covers and you got to buy them all. And your first printing was like 15 million issues. Right. Toy Biz is the company that has the Marvel rights.

[00:13:51] And the X-Men toys are so humongous at the time of the cartoon that they make such an insane amount of money that when Marvel is on the brink of bankruptcy, they buy out Marvel, which is insane.

[00:14:04] The company that licensed the toys, managed their money from selling the characters so much more successfully that then Ike Perlmutter takes care. That's in 1997. Right. In Avi Arad who also comes from the toy industry, they're both Israeli Toymen. Yep.

[00:14:22] He gets put in charge of trying to make money by selling off the intellectual property into different mediums. Right. No one has that idea of let's do our own movies. It's just like, hey, someone wants to pay his X for the Hulk? Great.

[00:14:39] Avi Arad essentially becomes a used car salesman. But I mean this is also it's back in the day where that idea is so silly that there would be a linked universe. Like make a Hulk movie. Who cares?

[00:14:48] But he would do these interviews when he was like promoting Spider-Man and he'd be like, yes, and we have Dr. Strange set up at Lion's Gate. Iron Fisted, Artisan Pictures. Like they had sold every... There was like a Deathlock movie. Like none of these, but they had Deathlock.

[00:15:03] Every single like vaguely valuable property they had was set up somewhere. Deathlock was so good because it was like what if he was a cyborg, but he's also like an assassin. He's like an ant. It was like all of the 90s shit. Ryan Reynolds.

[00:15:17] Even though he's from back in the day. Ryan Reynolds was supposed to do Deathlock in like 2001. What? I think it was at Lions Gate or Artisan. They sold off a bunch of the cheap ones to Lions Gate and Artisan before they merged. Right. Right.

[00:15:31] But like Paramount was going to do Iron Man with Tom Cruise. Sure. You know, there were all these different ones set up in different places and Hulk was one that Universal had for a bit. I believe they bought it in like the early 90s. Yeah.

[00:15:46] It was sort of on the edge of the sword, the tip of the spear because of how big the TV show had been. Yes. So much a part of the sort of cultural iconography. It's true.

[00:16:00] I think it's why the Hulk and Spider-Man lingered for the public in ways more than the Fantastic Four, the X-Men or the other Iron Man. Yes. It's like right they had like live action network shows. Yeah. Especially the Hulk which was like a real show. Right.

[00:16:15] I mean it's like. It was a beloved show. It was super lame but it was on network TV. They essentially made it a procedural. Here's a homeless wanderer. Right. I mean that procedural combined with like a Clint Eastwood Western where it's like he rolls

[00:16:28] into town, he finds the problem, he tries to avoid turning into the Hulk and then he has to. Turn into the Hulk and throw a bunch of people and it was like very cheap looking and it always ended with him hitchhiking and. Right.

[00:16:39] He rides off into another town. It was sort of quantum leapy. Yes. You know. But that show was beloved, played syndication forever and they kept on making TV movies until 1990. Okay. I mean the show ends early 80s and for like.

[00:16:55] The final TV movie is the death of the Incredible Hulk in 1990. Right. So like right after that, that's when they start getting serious about trying to make a film. Yes. In 1992, Avya Rod and Gayle Ann Hurd, Gayle Ann Hurd of Terminator fame and others set

[00:17:12] this up at Universal. Yeah. And this is going to be a serious movie and she's at the time I believe married Jonathan Hensley. Yeah. Who later goes on to do the Punisher film that was like the Mea Culpa project they threw his way.

[00:17:27] Sure, sure for kicking off this one. Right. But they were developing with a lot of different people. Michael France who wrote cliffhanger and golden eye. He writes a script universal wanted script where the Hulk fights terrorists. Yeah. Michael France didn't like that.

[00:17:44] So someone else comes in John Turman and he writes more of like a classic like Hulk versus the military. Thunderbolt Ross. Thunderbolt Ross and I think leader is involved. So. And then I think they don't like that very much.

[00:17:59] They don't like it, but I guess that that becomes like the absolute baseline. Like it's sort of like weirdly script is still in the ether. Right. Because he gets credit on his own. The credit for this film is crazy weird. Yeah.

[00:18:13] But it was very much a time where if you're buying a superhero property and then the writer comes in and goes like, so he's going to fight the leader. They'd be like, why are you using characters from the comics? Yeah. We bought the Hulk.

[00:18:25] Let's just have him fight whatever we feel like fighting. Right. Because then when Hensley takes over the project as the main writer. Right. And then he was supposed to direct it for a while. He was going to direct it. They had worked up.

[00:18:35] He had never directed a film. Gail Anherd pushed really hard for him and got him the job. And that movie was going to be Hulk fights mutant bug people. He was going to fight some mutant bug people. There's some concept art out there of mutant bug people.

[00:18:49] Makeup test. That's a mutant bug. Hulk was going to be an animatronic mutant bug Rachel. You can find the YouTube videos of the giant like 15 foot robot they had for the Hulk. Amazingly enough, Jonathan Hensley convinced the studio with his work writing Jumanji. Yeah. That was the thing.

[00:19:06] But then Joe Johnston was going to do it. Then they bring in Joe Johnston. I think that's how he gets on is because of Jumanji. Joe Johnson wanted Hensley. Joe Johnson leaves to do October sky. Hensley takes over the director's chair. Yes.

[00:19:19] Turmin comes back to write two more drafts. So I think that's why he gets the credit because he kept coming back. Yeah. And like changing his original script that had already been changed beyond recognition. Zach Penn wrote a script in which Hulk fights sharks. Yeah.

[00:19:34] See it's all the shit where it's like just having to fight scary things. He also wrote a scene where Hulk is kicked out of a helicopter and turns into the Hulk, which eventually made it all the way to the Marvel movie. Like later.

[00:19:48] Which also Marvel does that beat four times. They do it a lot. Oh look who it is. Oh look who walked in. Oh my lord. If it isn't the Ben juicer himself. Ben mad. Producer Ben Green with Rage over here.

[00:20:12] Poet Laurean, tiebreaker, haze, Mr. Positive, Mr. Hazard, birthday Benny, so come up Benny. Peeper. I'm going to do this until Ben can successfully get to his seat. He's a far detective. He's a meat lover. Thank you Rachel. Fine as film critic. Thank you Rachel.

[00:20:29] Rachel's now, she's bursting through the wall and she's picked up a tank and she's throwing it around the office. She says she hates blank check, must be destroyed. Goodbye Fennel Rachel. Hi Ben. So where do we, where do we- He's a fuck master. He's not Professor Crispy.

[00:20:47] He's graduated with certain titles over the course of the series such as Kylo Ben, Producer Ben Kenobi, Ben Sate, Ben Niteshaw Milan, Save Anything, dot dot dot, deal events with a dollar sign, Warhaz, Producer Bane, Ben Ninteen the Fennel maker, Rubble Haze, Benglish, Mr. Ben Credible. Sure.

[00:21:06] Oh, I like that. Yes. So I'm here, I was, I forgot we rescheduled, I was watching the Hulk and so Rachel was nice enough to step in. Yes. And I'm here now. Now you're here. So what the fuck? Okay.

[00:21:25] So we're talking about the development process of this movie. They, they pulled a plug. They were like casting actors. They were an act of pre-production. They pulled a plug. Which one is this? On the Hensley Directed. Yeah, right. And they, it was set to, right.

[00:21:39] They had Arizona location scouted like, and then they pulled a plug. Right. Cause they just went $100 million too high, never directed a film, untested, all of this. Abrams, Scott Alexander and Larry Karazewski all come into like re-run. They all come in to like rewrite the screen. Right.

[00:21:54] And they're like starting over, let's find something new, new angle. But they're kind of like in a rut, right? Now. This whole thing with the Beatles is so dumb. Thank God they never did that. Weird with the Bug people. Yeah. But also can you just-

[00:22:07] Ben, they were going to do a whole Hulk movie where he fights bugs. Like giant bugs. Is that- I guess men in black could come out. Yeah. Is that a thing that was in the comic? No. No, they were just like, what's the thing you could find now?

[00:22:17] So I was like, I don't know, bugs? This was a point in time where people had such contempt for comic books on the studio level that if you bought the rights to a superhero, they'd be like, so which of the characters from this 60 year history should he fight?

[00:22:27] And be like, none of those. Those are for fucking losers. You should fight a bug guy. What are the kids like now? Make up some bugs. But that plug is pulled. Yeah. So Hensley finally drops out basically saying like I wasted a year of my life on this

[00:22:42] fucking movie and it's never going to happen. Right. And like $20 million had been spent in pre-production developing the robot Hulk, like all these things X-Men comes out is big. Yes. Spider-Man is in production. Yes. Looks like a game changer, right? Yes.

[00:23:01] And then Crouching Tiger, Hing Dragon comes out just in between these things. Yeah. Michael France ones right one right final rights, one final script Jesus Christ that is lighter and more comical with Bruce Banner as an amiable genius

[00:23:16] with Jim Carrey in my mind is sort of like the person like or Sandler I knew they threw out as well. They thought about doing a comical, you know, sort of almost self-parody kind of. Yeah. I mean, cause you could obviously Sandler anger management.

[00:23:33] I mean, yeah, there's a comic take I suppose. Angry guy. But this script includes weirdly and God knows how it's funny. Yeah. The element of his father being abusive, the element of the regenerative cells. Right. Which comes in the comics.

[00:23:51] The black ops and all this and the gamut fear that is in this movie. So it's sort of like weirdly a lot of the DNA of that script that obviously they tossed like is still there was in there.

[00:24:02] So I think that's why he because he gets a credit too. Yes. Yeah. It's France and Termin who wrote worked on this these movies that never happened. Right. They get the credits along with James Shamus. But the weird thing is they all three get credits as writers. Yes.

[00:24:17] Shamus gets soul story by credit. Right. So they're admitting that like the movie is Shamus's, but I guess they're just also saying like, but the script overlaps these other drafts. But that also feels backwards from how it should be, you know?

[00:24:32] It's like, she misses the one who sat down by himself and sort of got to write it. That is true. Yeah. Michael Tolkien and David Hader. Like did rewrites. It's the same list of people.

[00:24:43] Hader's draft had the leader Zezax and the absorbing man like just threw all the villains in there. Too much for me. And they were all like created in the same accident. So I guess the idea was like four guys all. Yeah.

[00:24:56] Ang Lee come involved as you say, but after crashing tight before we get on to Ang or buddy Ang just because we were on this tangent before someone walked in. I won't say who. Okay. The guy who's been like two hours late. Never to a record.

[00:25:13] I did say you were pulling a grip part. He launched across the table. Exactly the same. I do love that Marvel has done that bit of the hero jumping out of the aircraft carrier four times now. Right. Yes, yes, yes. Because it happens in Incredible Hulk.

[00:25:31] It happens in Incredible Hulk happens in Age of Ultron when Black Widow kicks Banner. Oh, maybe it happens five times then because it certainly happens in Iron Man 2 where he kisses Pepper before he. Yes. Jumps out. That's true. Happens in Black Panther. Yes.

[00:25:49] Believe it happens in Winter Soldier as well. I know that Winter Soldier posters him in the aircraft carrier with his back turned looking like he's about to jump out. Yeah, he might. They love that fucking image of the guy jumping out from a high altitude

[00:25:59] I guess it's fun. and landing on the ground safe. Yeah. Yeah. Strong. Hulk strong. Sure. He's strong. So, no, but they literally she kicks him out in Ultron to make him into Hulk. Right.

[00:26:13] It's the line where she's like sorry but I need the other guy right now or whatever, you know. But what happens here is a phenomenon that I find really interesting which is kind of akin to the Paul Feig ghostbuster situation where it's like they have this

[00:26:27] property they're trying so hard to reboot. Right. It's never working that they take such a crazy swing and it's like Couching Tiger comes out. It's an action movie but it's also like very meditative and sad. Right. And in Chinese. Indeed. Right. And then it starts doing really well.

[00:26:46] They offer it to him in January so it hasn't even crossed 100 million at that point. OK. They don't know exactly how big Couching Tiger is but it's like in line for Oscars and they just offer it to him and go like what would you want to do?

[00:26:59] You can start from square one, make it whatever you want. They offered him in January 2001 so I don't think even the Oscar nominations have come out but like they're about to. You know it's like right then.

[00:27:08] And Ang Lee comes in and he doesn't like the script obviously because it's probably this mutant script. Right. And brings in his buddy Jimmy. I have referenced things that his buddy Jim Sheamus has said to me. Yes. Over the course of his many years.

[00:27:20] Because when you talk to Jim Sheamus you basically like we're like I'll have a hook. Right. I want to make this clear. I'm not friends with James Sheamus. He wouldn't recognize me on the street. I was at like a New York Film Festival party and I just fucking

[00:27:31] zoned in on him and was like I need to tell you I love the Hulk. Right. And then he proceeded to talk to me for like an hour and a half because I think he likes being able to talk about the Hulk

[00:27:42] as a character because I of course know that this movie is called Hulk with no definite articles. But he said that like when they got assigned to it they went through and read like every draft. Sure. And we're going through every permutation of the thing.

[00:27:59] The thing they latched on to was the father stuff, the Brian Banner stuff. It also went through read the comics and found that arc. Yes. They went through the comics that arc I believe is in the Peter

[00:28:11] David part of later which is like but I mean I think the Peter David Hulk is sort of the iconic definitive right. Right. That's sort of the apex. And that is right where I think Aenly says like oh this is

[00:28:21] like a Greek tragedy with all these like psychological elements which is what a monster movie. Those are the two things they go you know we want to make a Greek tragedy right. We want to get real actors right right real human drama and have

[00:28:35] them play it straight totally separate from this monster movie and then the other half the movie is we want to make a universal studios monster movie. Yes like we're not viewing this as superhero film because there barely is a template for what a superhero film is right.

[00:28:49] We're viewing this as the Wolfman and you have to remember like X-Men which is the sort of proto superhero film is not like that. I don't know but it's not a copy of it's yeah exactly it's pretty reserved doesn't have like big crazy wild action stuff.

[00:29:05] No it's a lot of you know like human drama and like right I don't know like the set pieces are usually very emotional like does that make sense. I've tried to spend a little while since I've seen it. There's not a template from that movie that's easy to

[00:29:18] follow. Yeah. And no one knew what Spider-Man was yet as you know Pascas Peter Labuz has said they didn't know what was going on concurrent with their sort of development. Right and then there's that right the shame of see Spider-Man is like terrified.

[00:29:34] Right he walks out of the theater opening day the audience cheers seeing Spidey on the American flag and he calls up Ang Lee who's in the middle of filming and goes we're fucked. Right. We are absolutely fucked. Yeah. Which is incredible but this movie is you know the

[00:29:49] universal monsters which I'm a big fan of. Sure you mean your Wolfman and your mummy and your Dracula. The original cinematic universe. Yes indeed. You know those films were horror films in a very different sense than we consider horror films today because they're not jump scare movies.

[00:30:05] They're movies that more scare people by the ideas within them. Right. You know like there aren't scary moments in those movies. The characters look scary. Yeah I mean I've seen most of those movies they're not scary. No. That's the thing about the Hammer Horror movies that

[00:30:19] are sort of like recycling them 20 years ago. Those are scary. Right. Like those are going for like gore and atmosphere. The universal movies are more like mind boggling and strange to consider. But that's also the origins of like Marvel comics. It was like tales to a star.

[00:30:34] Yeah you read Amazing Fantasy which is where Spider-Man came out of. Amazing Fantasy. Amazing Fantasy which was called like Amazing Adult Fantasy which literally sounds like a porn title until they like dropped it. Like it's always just like oh a moon man

[00:30:48] discovered an ancient key but then at the end he's cursed to live in a box like it's always got some dumb weird twilight zone ending. Right and they always started with this like this is Jim Johnson a normal man by day buying milk.

[00:31:03] By night at deep sea diver. People don't know is that when it's exactly 40 degrees he turns into... But it's never superhero shit it's always just some weird twilight zone shit. That's the thing they always felt twilight zoning they always felt monster movie.

[00:31:18] Yes it was like he did curse the mummy's curse. Oh yeah right. That was the thing is those movies like aren't scary on a scene by scene basis as much as they are just like oh what a scary circumstance. How chilling to ponder.

[00:31:33] But Hulk comes out of that. As does Spider-Man. Right but certainly like Hulk the comic comes out of that. The early Hulk comes out of that sort of mold. It's a Jekyll Hyde thing right? Was there ever universal Jekyll Hyde? Obviously there's the old Jekyll Hyde movie

[00:31:50] I just forget if it's universal. I think the best universal... Weirdly the most canonical universal Jekyll Hyde is from Avin Cassello meet Dr. Jekyll Mr. Hyde which is played by Boris Karloff I believe. I'm gonna look that up because I know

[00:32:05] Lon Chaney played him one time you know like it's one of those roles that like you are correct Barbarus Karloff plays. But it's the Frederick March one is the most famous one. Right the Frederick March one there's just so many though

[00:32:18] like if you look at the like I think it's also one of those things where like the rights were just never owned so people would just make them over and over again but yes the Frederick March one that's the 1931 and he I believe he won the Oscar

[00:32:31] which is sort of nuts. But anyway yes Hulk classic Jekyll Hyde right? By day mild-mannered scientist by night monster. And the way those comics would be written is like you know you have a title like Tales to Astonish your goal is every issue come up with a

[00:32:48] tale that will astonish. I'm astonished right now. If one character popped then they'd spin them off. Sure. But they were always kind of self-contained stories in which it was like here's not assuming person here's the tragic accent here's the weird condition they

[00:33:01] have and then it sort of resolves itself with the person like wandering back in the woods and it's like what will become of them? Also I believe in the first six issues of the Hulk it's a day night thing like the rage the anger

[00:33:14] thing comes later that the anger transforms gray and then he's sort of like I don't know he like he's not green for a while like the whole Hulk mythos comes later right sometimes he like talks a lot yeah he's like fuck you like are you like aren't

[00:33:30] you a monster? So isn't this for kids? Don't be rude. Watch your mouth. But in that way this feels like one of the weirdly most faithful comic book adaptations because I feel like it so perfectly captures that sort of early Marvel comic right but that's like the

[00:33:50] weird sort of diametrically opposed thing this movie is doing which is like simultaneously like he wants to make the most comic booky movie ever and also make like who's afraid of Virginia Woolf right with like dads Yeah and he did I guess they filmed it

[00:34:11] in Arizona and San Francisco the most expensive movie Universal had made up until that point in time nuts which is nuts they also did some stuff in the Utah deserts obviously you see them here they have most of the movies filmed I think wrapped by 2001 and it was

[00:34:28] pretty much like two years of yeah post-production work which they only finished like a month before the movie came Eric Bama said that the shoot was ridiculously serious a silent morbid set yeah yeah well that's the thing and I remember at the time the the

[00:34:46] because the first Super Bowl trailer had very little it didn't really show you the Hulk it just showed you like his eye and people were like they don't they haven't figured out what he's gonna look like that was and the wrap on the movie was like they

[00:34:58] never figured it out that wasn't the Super Bowl trailer that was the first teaser they had before Spider-Man sure which was him in the mirror yeah him in the mirror and then you just like it ends on the eye it will know no I think

[00:35:09] it ended on like his house and you see like a smashing but we don't see the Hulk yes yeah that's correct the Super Bowl one was the first time they actually showed the whole right that was that January they spent like two million dollars for 30 second ad where

[00:35:23] they showed him for the first time and people were kind of like because on the poster it was like his hand is covering his face it's him like reaching out yes yes so his face is obscured but but they like Ang Lee was very big on like they've

[00:35:39] done CGI characters before there's been some amount of mocap right because they're there's golem right apart from that there's not a lot no I mean there's blarp obviously but barp change the game we all remember blarp was a game course I remember I mean you know Hulk is

[00:35:55] blarp 2 right if you think about and I guess golem is blarp 2 hulk is barp 3 yeah that's correct right it's like the bar trilogy like Hulk is the the same wire frame as blarp but they've just sort of you know mangled it's three colors blarp

[00:36:10] blarp is yellow right I am blarp yellow I am blarp gray yeah sickly gray I am blarp green unite the blarps unite the blarps hashtag unite the blarps all the blarps he was really big on trying to get and I guess you know golems kind of concurrent

[00:36:27] with this sure yeah that's true because two towers doesn't come out till 2002 that's true so they were I think sharing a lot of technology but he hadn't been able to see those results yet his big thing was I want a real kind of nuanced performance

[00:36:39] he worked a lot with them to try to get he did a lot of the motion capture did almost all of it which is like at the time they downplayed that and now everyone goes like no and we play the Hulk for the entire movie which is unbelievable

[00:36:51] and there are some behind the scenes featurettes you can find now where you see Ang Lee in the body suit watching the modern going okay another take another take and then he goes and just hulks out right and he's really fucking good he's great like he's tiny

[00:37:05] and he looks really solemn and then he's like okay new take and it goes and then just starts like slamming walls looks furious like he's got like spittle flying out of his mouth I mean good for him I Ang Lee

[00:37:19] he made this movie I just the other thing I remember at the time that the narrative was also like ILM they're like being left in the dust yeah shitty because I think the scorpion king thing had happened like a few years

[00:37:31] earlier and what I had like a merge is being and when that's it they they've reinvented special effects the code and that's and then I feel like that reverses again like you know like it's it's like wetter kind of becomes a little cheesy like yeah doesn't matter

[00:37:45] I mean it goes back and forth but like I mean ILM had always been like the king of the industry you know right in terms of digital stuff and what it was like Peter Jackson's like using the people that he set up in like a cabin in New

[00:37:59] Zealand to make the Lord of the Rings like it seemed really rinky dink because it was like the best special effects artist in New Zealand but but everyone was like crazy about golem so then when the Hulk thing comes out I think people were like

[00:38:15] oh man imagine what the fucking Hulk's gonna look like and the answer is the Hulk looks really cartoony yeah he looks like a big green person I think he looks fine I think he looks good I have always always looked way better than here's how

[00:38:29] he looks way better than the Edward Norton Hulk I do think the Ruffalo Hulk is the sleep some balance better but that's you know they that's ten years on essentially but I also think at Norton Hulk's terrible he doesn't look big or scary no it's really weird

[00:38:43] bad it like isn't composited well he never looks his hair is off the mass is never really in place I mean that movie had a greatly diminished budget in relation to this and you know this movie is thought of as a flop

[00:38:59] and those two movies made the exact same amount of money yes but this movie was pricier right pricey yes but you know I mean I think they essentially in terms of profit ended up about that's the same possibly true the yeah I mean the Louis Letterey movie made 263

[00:39:17] this made two 45 worldwide and you know inflation and I also think home video like the DVD market was a lot stronger in 2003 than it was in 2008 so they were able to make up some of that he makes a couple choices here that I think fucked him in terms

[00:39:37] of the perception of the general public but I like one is that the Hulk is really fucking green in this movie he's very green he's like he's P green he's bright bright like vivid like Crayola green yes which makes him look unreal he looks unreal the other thing

[00:39:53] it makes him look unreal is that he's often covered in like oil or something so he sort of looks like he's been in like MS paint like I don't know yeah well the other thing is I mean this is a technical limitation thing the thing

[00:40:07] they had not really conquered at this time was how to get flesh right right in terms of the translucency of flesh so he just kind of looks like a big green sponge if that makes sense he's just one there's no his skin is the same everywhere like

[00:40:21] right right he's just one thing like you look at the Ruffalo Hulk and it's very right has hairs and like they also they now are able to build these things where they actually like build your vein system before they put the flesh

[00:40:35] on top of it right and they build the flesh with a certain translucency so it reacts to the light in certain ways but the Ed Norton Hulk is like covered in veins but it just looks goofy yeah look at that yeah it looks so nasty like

[00:40:47] the Ed Norton Hulk looks like a toxic Avenger yeah yeah it does look like a toxic Avenger it looks to me like what would come up in like an augmented reality app he looks sick yeah yeah he looks really sick it's dumb

[00:40:59] that movie fucking sucks sick hold it does it really sucks I knew it sucked and then I watched it it's so banal he makes him bright bright green he makes him he gives in the purple pants which the other permutations stray away from age of old trunk gets

[00:41:13] it back a little bit a little bit but I will admit that brown they go blue pants look bad they just don't look like pants they look like their CGI like they look worse than the Hulk you'd think they'd be better at pants

[00:41:25] look really bad like was the guy on the pants like the bad like you know was he like this are like oh Jim oh he was on pants let's put him on pants and he's like hey guys I made some pants like yeah

[00:41:37] so he phoned in it because he's like oh great I'm the pants guy right he's like we can't fire him he's Jerry ILM air to the ILM for shit meanwhile like in the other studio ang Lee's like and everyone's like this is so fun and the guy's

[00:41:51] like someone's just modeling pants for fucking pants bullshit you want another angle on the pants no the other the other big stylistic choice he makes which I think freaks people out is they give Hulk a baby face yeah that's

[00:42:07] that I was about to say if you didn't say that yes that is the real thing he's got a sad baby face that's kind of hot whole he's he's a handsome you're saying you like you're like babies well what you want to fuck you said

[00:42:19] baby no you're right you're right baby he has this sort of squishy kind of like wounded look at all times like he rarely looks angry unless he's like really like full rate and even when he's in full rage it kind of looks like an

[00:42:33] angry baby like you know what I mean but you like when like a toddler gets angry and then he starts crying and he's sort of said about the face up and yeah they make it like a child yes okay well now I feel

[00:42:47] weird they make it like he's not child right exactly like the kind of character that Ben would want to want to stop no no but you're right he looks he looks a little baby ish and I think that really turn people off

[00:43:01] really turn they thought of the Hulk is this because of the like lufa rig no image of this like masculine brute turn me off for sure for sure you want to be clear yeah yeah yeah why is the table rising right now my god it's the most powerful

[00:43:17] boner I've ever seen you guys are the worst the best thing is that I can actually as a bit lift the table so the Hulk he casts Eric Banna well no he casts Billy Crude yeah what happened they model the Hulk after Billy Crude looks like Billy Crude

[00:43:37] they start designing it after Billy Crude up and then Billy Crude up's like actually I don't think I can be in a superhero movie I don't be part of a big blockbuster he bows out pretty late and he was going up like isn't that when Billy Crude

[00:43:47] does his weird thing where he like dumps Mary Louis Parker like right around then so I don't know maybe he's going to through some shit yeah but they cast Jennifer Connelly right off the Oscar yeah she has just won an Oscar for a beautiful

[00:43:59] mind she plays Betty Ross yes and Eric Banna who it just he's in blackhawk down the year they're casting and that was his sort of chopper had been his like emerging role that was his who is this guy was like wow he's very handsome

[00:44:15] he's very magnetic Hollywood everyone's trying him out he almost did triple X do you know that I didn't know that before Fast and Furious was so huge and then Rob Cohen could go hey let's take our shirt off to make a Vin Diesel movie

[00:44:31] they were thinking it was going to be Eric Banna like every studio was like Eric Banna interesting and he had been an Australian comedy star he was a sketch comedy we talked about it he had a sketch comedy show the Eric Banner show right

[00:44:45] yep but then he does chopper where he plays this like larger than life very gregarious sort of dangerous a very Ben movie I fucking love that movie it's good movie he's good in it I mean he's great in it he shows his ticket bars yeah he's like

[00:44:58] passing future guest Sam Rogal's great joke is that like chopper's about the most lethal serial killer in the history of Australia and he killed like three people we've made that joke on the podcast I can't remember when it is probably the Munich episode yeah that was not

[00:45:13] Mark Chopper read who now like writes children's books so you know Australia is weird place weird place so but this is his and then you know he's got Troy next year in the Munich the year after that so this is his little run of like

[00:45:25] Eric Banna we're gonna make a list movie star yeah and then after that that's that that's the end of that then he becomes weird Eric Banna and Eric Banna like he's the villain in Star Trek he's the husband funny people which he's great in both of those

[00:45:39] movies is great in both of those movies he's really great in both of those movies also like it was really got fucked over because like lucky you was his follow-up to Munich and that got like pushed and pushed and pushed yeah and then

[00:45:51] like the other Berlin girl where he plays Henry VIII which is like a straight up embarrassing performance but like you know could have been a good I mean in theory that's a fine choice like costume drama you play King but it's sort of just

[00:46:03] never totally worked him he's really good Hannah as well good in Hannah I mean I think he's pretty good in the time traveler's wife which made money you know that one was famous for like they had to do reshoots but he'd shaved his head for

[00:46:15] the Star Trek so like that took forever to get off the ground he's and now it's like he's just like I'll be in your TV show you know what I mean it's a little sad I still think he's a good actor I do too he can be

[00:46:27] hammy yeah like in something like the finest hours I think he sticks out a little bit he's like hitting things a little too hard yeah but like I like Eric Banna I've always liked Eric Banna he's sort of become that now he's become weirdly like the guy

[00:46:41] giving you the information across the you're right that he's and Eric Banna because like in King Arthur that's his role where it's like let's give him 10 minutes at the top and that's that you know like he's still big enough that he can make a

[00:46:53] little bit of an impact like if you've been above the title in the way that he was where they were really trying to push him as a leading man you always have some value but the value is pretty much now if he's above the title

[00:47:05] proper it's a very small it's like in the movie it's like him doing special core correspondence with the Reves for Netflix well that was just a mistake or it's like lone survivor and Eric Banna finest hours and Eric Banna you know Hannah and Eric Banna King Arthur

[00:47:21] funny people he's our track he's in some TV show coming up I've just Roseanne right dirty John that's it dirty John he got cast as dirty John I just listened to your John Ben Penn was talking to me about very good

[00:47:37] TV show actually sure I mean but the is sort of the sad thing fact of life now where it's just like I guess I'll do a TV show for like a streaming company but you know whatever Eric Banna so he's in this no I know that's

[00:47:49] the best thing an actor could possibly achieve probably David yeah for me you know what though no I'll say this I'll say this this is getting awkward I'll say this if you're doing a TV show for a streaming company yeah that's a little over if you're doing

[00:48:07] a TV show for stream company that also is an online store and I've never done anything wrong anything is true that I often buy batteries from the company that also pays you to play you ever think about that you know the first thing you know you can go

[00:48:27] to Amazon and find the first thing you ever bought like they have your whole really and I went back and it was the special edition DVD of memento in like 2001 you can also go back and see all the credit cards you've run up oh totally

[00:48:41] yeah where they're like do you want to use this one and I'm like I know who doesn't want me to use that one it's the good folks at MasterCard um no there's a there it's just I remember that

[00:48:53] special edition of memento where they're like it's going to be such a great DVD where it's like a bunch of slides it looks like his case file yeah and then you put it in your like I just want to

[00:49:01] watch the movie and it's like no no we've thought this through you have to decode like the isn't the menu like uptose yes the menu is impossible in the game you have to like google like how do I watch the movie again they're like

[00:49:13] up left left right you know that's great though it's such a weird little game yeah well they're like this could be a game well I just remember when when Chris Vernolyn came up to me at the post production house and said I'm going to do a jazz DVD

[00:49:31] where is my Hulk blu-ray which I own yeah same here is basically like you want to watch the movie yeah they have like a commentary like they have special features but the menu is basically like welcome to Hulk play movie and the weird thing is it's you saying

[00:49:49] that it's me it's David just looking tired even I'm not into this yeah I like the movie they're not paying me enough to be excited have we talked about DVD menus how falling asleep oh yeah so then you're right it just plays on loop right that

[00:50:05] must like like just drive you crazy I feel like there's some weird osmosis in the brain yeah my friend Jess Lane great comedian her twitter bio I believe used to be sex stuff during DVD menus which I think is just such a good evocation

[00:50:21] it's so good yeah it's funny because it is that thing of like Netflix over and then there's still like a loop of someone going like every two seconds who shag me to do like choose an option baby yeah they have clips of the movie one million special features

[00:50:45] like they have those little like sound bites I remember the spy shag me one specifically is like Austin dancing and he's like pointing to the different menu options and just soul bossa nova over and over and over again I have the weirdest dreams I will say this though

[00:51:03] the ride with the devil blu-ray I think that score is so good that I kept it on because I liked the ambient looping criterion does a good job of like let's make sure even the looping menu is sort of serene and atmospheric like not

[00:51:17] like I mean it'd be weird if that was right with the devil the mosquito pointing a gun at the various options choose an option baby no but they like they sort of have like very meditative visuals that are on a loop and then they pick long soundtracks

[00:51:35] but hey it's been an hour let's talk about my favorite anglien movie now we can get into the meat of the film the opening I love because he sets right off the bat the sort of visual sort of how visually indebted this movie is to classic marvel comics

[00:51:51] absolutely this open and credit sequence is applying the sort of philosophy of make every panel as dynamic as possible especially in those early like tales to astonish type things strange tales what have you where a lot of those stories were set up as one shots

[00:52:11] and even when you move on to ongoing titles they didn't very often do multi-issue arcs or basically did and sometimes they would do two stories per issue like eleven page stories and like I mean that's why I love like I've been spider-man I've been reading old spider-man

[00:52:27] where it's just like like there's one really early one where dr octopus who like three issues ago like hijacked a nuclear sub or something and they're like he's being let out of prison for good behavior and you're like I guess they just had to like

[00:52:41] they had to move this along those things just truck like they move fucking fast and this whole open credit sequence of like David Banner with all his experiments where it's like A they're using these great angles he's extreme close ups a lot of all cursey

[00:52:55] yeah like he's not doing like fucking you don't shumaker but he's very subtly like getting the colors and the sort of angles making them look real world but that's sort of like dinosaur dynamic I agree I mean I think it's never been done before

[00:53:11] since practically I mean like you mentioned shumaker but shumaker was like by comic booky do we mean just sort of over the top because I shoot it like an 80s movie music video like a lot of dry ice a lot of like neon like whereas like

[00:53:23] he's approaching this like Roy Lichtenstein where he's like what makes a good comic book panel exactly you know like what's the composition everything is composition it's like should his face be like you know can we do these weird deep focus shots like all these things right in the

[00:53:37] right in the foreground and right furrow brown like because you obviously remember the panels which they don't do that much they do more towards the end they do it a lot of the beginning and a lot of the end it kind of

[00:53:51] they do do a lot of the beginning it feels like he really wants to do it during the action sequences at the end and he does it a bunch of the beginning just to acclimate people exactly and then he sort of throttles down yeah but this movie also

[00:54:03] does all the like overlapping sort of image stuff that then like speed racer really takes to the next level where it's like yes so no you're right speed racer someone walks into someone else's frame you know all the action you know what else does it what

[00:54:17] movie called draft yep yep yep yep yep yep yep yep it's about a very ambitious intern who on his first day of work is saddled he's saddled with four cups of coffee yeah and a broken lamp um no so it's settled with an unsightly tan in fact

[00:54:37] let's talk about it griffin dole is all griffin dole is all the thing I love about this opening credit sequence is that it feels like this is the opening of an issue that would have a bunch of Stanley narrative blocks above it where it's like by night

[00:54:55] scientist David Banner works on experiments that would shock you to your core and it's like the shot of him like cutting open the starfish you know yes yes yes that star ship starfish thing like is funny because the heat really leans on it and then

[00:55:09] it doesn't come back for two hours and then it finally does yeah um but but you see all this experimentation this danielfman score I love they heichel they they heichel jesus christ they katherine heichel did you're right katherine heichel she edited this movie they hired

[00:55:25] michael daniel yes had worked on anglis past couple yeah he scores the ice storm he scores Robert the devil I can't remember if he did any before I think that's it because Patrick Doyle did since right and he was like but he'll work with angli

[00:55:38] again life is like life of pie yeah he does the score in universals like this is too sad this is too weird let's hire a normal superhero guy danielfman right and it is at the time where it's like oh well danielfman

[00:55:51] did the batman did spider man spider man theme he is you know the premiere superhero score writer right so they hire him and at that point they're like we hired the guy that's fine we won't look at sure yeah well we're gonna go get coffee

[00:56:05] right I'm sure it's all gonna be great and he listens he's like so what was the problem with the old score and they plan on Michael daniel score and he's like it's pretty good yeah I'm gonna do something like maybe I'll just sort of like spruce this up

[00:56:15] like 10% like you know just like a little lighter but like yeah but it's like one of the least triumphant superhero scores it's so good but it's very like eerie it's it's sad you know healthman's fascinating because what happened to him he now is he's

[00:56:29] a bit of a hank now he's a bit of a hack now working for hire mode yeah boingo boingo like what's the last interesting score he did let's look at the discography right I'm gonna guess it's like a Burton movie but I don't even know I can't tell

[00:56:43] you what the last good Burton score is like he did the Justice League score I don't remember anything except when he reused the batman for him right uh I mean remember that he worked on the Avengers Age of Ultron score which is fine less good than

[00:56:57] the Sylvesterie score from the first movie that is true yeah I don't know I'm kind of going back and I'm not seeing anything even his last good Burton is probably big fish you know it is last great score is his milk that's a phenomenal

[00:57:09] score but that's like 10 years ago so yeah 10 years that's a phenomenal phenomenal score since then he's kind of sucked this is one of my favorite scores of his and in the movie like goes from that open credit sequence to like start jumping around in time so aggressively

[00:57:23] yeah my favorite thing is that five different children play young Bruce Banner because it's like two year old four year old eight year old like you know like it's so weird but that's like the old Marvel thing of like you got 30 pages

[00:57:35] you got to set this up you can't spend more than two panels on any given plot point um but the plot that they're setting up is that David Banner was going to make super soldiers using modified DNA to stuff in like front yet to make

[00:57:49] us rebuild our wounds strong skin fadious Ross who comes off in this movie is a pretty reasonable dude thunderbolt thunderbolt Ross denies him the permission to use human subjects so he just does it on himself and then has a child who he has like cursed with this genetic

[00:58:07] abnormality right is a sins of the father movie it is and it is a trauma movie it's a repressed movie about repressed trauma and Freudian hatred and spousal abuse uh and but that's in this opening mental illness have this thing the genius who

[00:58:29] puts his work before his family yes sure for sure but I like that the movie also he's like crazy starfish man right it'd be very easy to make him just the bad dad wishing himself right now he's just had a shot from mid court uh the uh

[00:58:47] the uh come on go on griffin come on oh my god griffins me everything yeah this is his like favorite I'm the goof I'm late I'm like yeah everything you're griffing it pretty hard this episode I am alright sorry sorry uh should you version

[00:59:05] this movie throw up yeah don't even joke about that don't even joke oh my god thank you my high five um the shitty version this movie would just be like the dad cares too much about his job which is essentially what Ross is that's his

[00:59:21] relationship with Betty is that he's kind of emotionally distant in this movie and in general doesn't know how to reach out to her right and instead it's like the trauma of Bruce's very very young childhood is like real fucking is is

[00:59:33] buried and they dance around it for a while but we for so long have this lingering shot that keep on coming back to of him standing outside the door where he hears his parents screaming from the other side and it's like spoiler alert David

[00:59:47] stabbed the mommy yeah he was trying to kill baby Bruce right right in the process monster right killed his mother in front of Bruce's eyes yes now but also was a drunk was a rassable was violent yes I think there's yes I think there's some implication that like

[01:00:05] experimenting on himself sort of drove him mad right you know right like there's I it's all so like unspoken and there's no narration which is funny to think about because you're talking about these old comics and you're right right they did pack but you know the marvel

[01:00:19] method was like Stanley would sit Jack Kirby down or whatever and be like it's this this idea is like a scientist he turns into the whole go draw it and the guy would draw it and then Lee would write everything around the art and he

[01:00:31] would just fucking go on crazy tangents like you know which if you read early Marvel they don't have a lot of dialogue no it's a lot of lead boxes right very verbose sort of incredibly verbose like over explaining things that make like maybe

[01:00:47] like dick co had drawn some panel and leaves like why spider-man doing this I don't think I'll think of some weird thing you know like and it's I love it and we got these little yeti scenes that feel like that except with dialogue

[01:01:01] the casting on both young Sam Elliott and young McNulty is really good it is I like I get their energies down so right and and especially with Sam Elliott you look at the actor playing young Thunderbolt Ross and you're just like God that upper lip

[01:01:15] is Jones and for a mustache get a push broom on that push broom on that fucker but so we cut ahead yeah to Bruce Crensler right who's a scientist knows nothing of his past right one thing you get in between the sort of bridge at your first

[01:01:33] like sort of longer dialogue scene is like a western with right it's not even that long no but it's like a minute at this point we're like six minutes into the movie and we've seen like 18 scenes it's true you know because it's a bunch of like

[01:01:45] one there was you know like the credits were over it like in dramatic fashion right and they use like the Marvel font the classic Marvel which I love that back baby in fact so yeah Bruce is a scientist he's dating Betty Ross well they just broke up

[01:02:01] at the beginning of the film they just I guess because what's his name who now only plays creeps Kevin Rankin Kevin Rankin yes who now plays like Matthew neo Nazi cream like breaking bad he does I mean he was in like justified

[01:02:15] and he was in Breaking Bad and he was in but he's in like Friday Night Lights around now I just love that in this he plays like a Griffin Newman right right who's like hey how you doing bud right you go where you're wearing that

[01:02:27] helmet when she broke up this thing where he's wearing the fucking helmet love it don't worry I'll get it I'll get it Ben Nemo Nemo I'm looking for Nemo Nemo have you seen Nemo no um me Albert Brooks actor filmmaker comedian writer

[01:02:51] sure I've a huge fan of you Albert thank you I'm looking for Nemo have you seen Nemo I know I have not seen a fish it's not a fish it's oh boy this is kind of embarrassing so you know I've been involved in some

[01:03:03] very famous film projects yeah of course well I'm very proud of my work not both so proud so I like to name my personal belongings after my my greatest film works oh I see okay so what are you looking for in particular my microwave

[01:03:17] I call it lost in America okay now my dresser I call it broadcast news sure and my linens I called Nemo they're my Brooks linens Oh I see Albert Brooks's linens are called Nemo and I can't find them anywhere um that's terrible because Nemo you

[01:03:35] think you can do these things but you can't okay brook linens Brooks linens? no no brook linens oh singular yes okay non possessive they're not my linens but they are going to be a great replacement for your missing linens because here's the deal alright

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[01:04:09] nice to be part of a good project so let me just tell you some stuff about it to get you excited alright so this is the this is the deal doesn't take much to get Albert Brooks excited yeah okay I'm pulling up the levels there that's fine

[01:04:25] so here's the deal with Brooklyn alright it was founded in 2014 by husband and wife team named vicki and rich full up and their mission was to make five star hotel quality sheets for everyday life but without the luxury markup I mean I'm on board so far sounds great

[01:04:45] and these sheets don't just feel great but they look great too and there's different colors and materials to choose from like maryl streepin defending her life not just a great performance but she looks great not to be you know objectify her but

[01:05:01] yeah we all kind of war linens in that movie I don't know if you say it's a heaven set picture I haven't seen it okay are you I don't take it personal no it's a good film I mean I'd not to pat myself on the back go on

[01:05:11] you are patting yourself on the back well okay so Albert I think that you and our listeners will benefit from this deal today they were offering okay so the Brooklyn sheets that David myself and Griffin all use hey I'm griffin by the way I was right here

[01:05:31] this is Albert Brooks this is griffin newman big fan oh thank you thank you their sheets are the best most comfortable sheets that I've ever slept on wow and I think we all agree in the room do we not yeah Brooklyn at comm is giving an exclusive offer

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[01:05:57] is I have to go to the website and check out those are the only two instructions right no you use the code check at checkout and you'll get $20 off and free shipping all right and not only that brooklyn it is so sure that you'll love their

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[01:06:25] you're right I am maybe a little too boastful in my own work proud of my career you should be proud of your career Dory what is that I'm testing out I think I would name these new sheets Dory so I'm seeing how that sounds Dory

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[01:07:11] can I pitch you an idea no absolutely not so the idea is and Betty pretty much calls this out it's like she falls for men like her father she falls for men who can't really know right right so he's not exactly the same in terms of temperament

[01:07:32] as her father but he's just sort of inaccessible agree and she has this longing to reach for these men who you need to sort of dig out now how do you feel about the character Bruce Banner in this movie just Bruce so I love that he is so

[01:07:48] thoroughly born he's very born very born because I do feel like and I don't like the Louis Latteria movie I don't know they had a movie but I do feel like that movie clearly saw this movie almost like we need Bruce

[01:08:00] to be like a character to make a leading man you want to make my protagonist who you care about right because that movie is about Bruce trying to control this rage and Bruce like it doesn't turn into the Hulk for a long time and all

[01:08:10] that you know where is this movie is like meet Bruce Banner he's a totally boring anyway let's move on yeah I mean it's like the key to this movie in terms of what Ang Lee wants to say is that Bruce has to

[01:08:20] be completely vacant as a human being right because it's like he's buried at all it's all bottle trauma but he is kind of hot so I guess that's that's a great and I think Banner is good in it like he's he's very

[01:08:34] I got a good intensity I think he's really good at the hulking out moments yeah because especially like with the technology where it was at this point in time where a full transformation is hard to show the moments where he's like building

[01:08:46] the rage and sort of like banging the floor maybe that's really good but it's like it's good by design it's sort of the workhorse character that is the least glamorous and the least sort of rewarding to play right so they very quickly get into there they're doing these

[01:09:06] very quickly doing gamma radiation tests to rebuild cells just like his dad was but they keep on exploding frogs they do they blow up a frog which is gross now he was adopted by Celia western foster parents he doesn't know his real

[01:09:20] parents yes she keeps on asking him don't you want to know and he goes like don't care don't care don't want to look into it and meanwhile Betty's leaving the office one night and a lowly janitor is cleaning the floor and they shoot

[01:09:34] him from behind so you'll have no idea who the janitor is exactly who are you phantom don't worry about it I'm the actor you should recognize in a matter of later I'm your father bringin yeah it's a total chameleon performance my favorite genre film

[01:09:54] is bad dad Nick Nolte yes please now Nick I'll do anything warrior Hulk that's my triple feature Nick Nolte I have a question for you yeah what's his middle name Lawrence King what Nicholas King no exactly so King Nolte here my friend Doug Rosenberg made a joke that

[01:10:18] I think about every time I watch a Nick Nolte performance and it's funnier than to me than most things I've ever heard my life we were watching the thinner at lying together great movie and he's good in it he's amazing he should have been nominated for that

[01:10:30] yeah arguably 100% the only problem is there's like 400 men in that movie that are like a lot of them are really good the best performance in that movie I would argue and he's got the most showcased right up there I mean I think

[01:10:40] Kavisal is very good in that way anyway but he's got one of the scenes where he's like screaming like I said launch the missiles now yeah Doug turns to me and he goes more like Nick Nolte and I said what why Nick Nolte and he said

[01:10:56] because his veins are popping out of his neck yeah I got it I got it I do think it's interesting like you go from I'll do anything Nick Nolte he's always had the voice which is 1994 right so nine years previous they're nine years between these two films

[01:11:12] then one film Nick Nolte is like the well-meaning sort of hunky he's hunky he's big four year old and in this it's like Hulk's degenerate hobo like yeah he is literally like I've been living under another man's testicles for 25 years 25 years oh my god

[01:11:32] like his poodles are like his spirit animal where he's like you ever seen a poodle that looks like it wants to eat you I think he was voted people sexist man alive in 94 I believe no no no it was in it was in 91

[01:11:44] I think it was for the Prince of Tides okay even still yes well I was about to say you know even in like so you've got like Mohan Falls after glow U-turn affliction these are like he's still a leading man

[01:11:56] and falls he like has a love scene with Jennifer Connolly who's in this movie I know but I'm saying like in that time I know it's like and then this it's like he's like a ghoul who's haunting Jennifer Connolly well this is what I'm trying to get

[01:12:08] to it's like thin red line 98 even then like you say maybe he's Nick Nolte yeah he's not like a person yeah the golden bowl yeah that's right he was like a lead in a fucking merchant ivory yeah and then in 2002 he's in the good thief

[01:12:26] you know people barely remember Neil Jordan movie Bob LaFlembeau remake and he's playing like a man who is made of vodka right and you're like it's not like you saw the movie and you were like wow what a transformation by Nick

[01:12:40] Nolte but you are kind of like wow he's a real wreck in this movie and he just is a wreck from then on and the other thing is when this movie is being shot he has his DUI he does because he's famous the famous

[01:12:52] image of him in like the Hawaiian shirt yeah where he is shooting this and he looks like this right and everyone's like oh Nick Nolte has fucking fallen on hard time right which like on one hand I think Nick Nolte was starting to crumble

[01:13:06] on the other hand he had grown his hair out for a role to play a guy who was starting to crumble that's not that's not to you know defend drunk driving or whatever you know and I also apparently had like a lot of GHB

[01:13:20] system so like alright Nick sometimes daddy likes to have a little bit too much sauce sure he's got to get gotta get home somehow like Tropic Thunder is five years after this yeah and that's like at that point it's just sort of

[01:13:36] like a stereotype that that's what Nick Nolte is he's like a comedic reference point what did you just do on the computer about no his phone made noise I'm gripping out he's just gripping the fuck out and we were just laughing about it anyway

[01:13:48] I know what happened to Gary he died he's I just love that he's the worst janitor we like being a janitor is just you mop one circle in the floor right like in a corner we've been talking about how bad 2003 was for supporting actor I would

[01:14:06] have slid him in so fucking hard I've got to slide him in yeah especially at the end but so that's the basic dynamic you have going on Bruce is doing his testing he and Betty are broken up but still on personable terms

[01:14:18] I like that it's just sort of like look Bruce I can't date you anymore and they're like still working together with no animosity and he's kind of trying to get her back but he isn't really he's a bit of a cipher and then there's an accident right

[01:14:30] now does Ross call Betty before after that there's the scene where they get lunch that I love think it's I can't remember exactly Ross might be on the scene because the two things that happen are Talbot has been sniffing around them Talbot Josh Lucas playing a real heel

[01:14:46] yes Josh Lucas coming right off of like sweet home Alabama Talbot who's like a classic villain of the early early early Hulk comics like you know sort of a a Ross stooge well he's like in the military he's like a major but yes

[01:15:02] but he wants to sort of buy out there he wants in technology and then Ross is kind of sniffing around which Betty thinks is her father trying to connect with her but then she realizes and you look at that scene where they get lunch together and it's like

[01:15:14] this will never exist in a superhero movie ever shoot tell me why because it's a scene that is about what who is the character who is a ostensibly the romantic interest of the film and her fracture relationship with her father who is the villain but played with zero

[01:15:34] histrionics yeah well the thing is I remember when Elliot was cast yeah and I was a big comic book fan I was like oh my god of course like he's basically looks like the drawn Ross like which is this sort of like stone face

[01:15:48] guy with a big mustache yeah and remember we were soldiers that just come out yes and in the trailer there's that line at the end where Mel Gibson's like what about Custer like Custer's last stand or something and he's like Custer was

[01:16:00] a pussy you're like right okay he's gonna do that doesn't really do that it's one of his sadder performance it is it's a very quiet performance that he never like you know freaks out really I guess he like yells a little bit yeah I love that

[01:16:12] I think he plays this with very control and it with a knowledge of how shitty he is as a dad yes like when she calls him out it's like his frustration at the fact that he can't just figure out how to relate to her

[01:16:24] but and like yeah there's that early thing and I can't remember right I think it's I think it is right before because she's like what are we what is it that we're sniffing around here this is like right classified and she's like of course classified

[01:16:38] that's what I love about the scene is it's like an incredible show don't tell scene yeah where it's like okay the movie just slows down the love interest goes to meet up with the villain and immediately he starts talking about other stuff

[01:16:52] and it tells you everything you need to know about their relationship and Jennifer Connolly plays this everyone in this movie plays it like Ingle said I'm going to like the solemn tone on set he was like I constantly want to tell them don't play it

[01:17:04] like you're in a Hulk movie right like Greek tragedy this is an adult drama I'll take care of the Hulk movie and post I know and again we're only a few years removed from like the Schumacher type Robin movie where Schumacher was like more

[01:17:16] more like this is silly this is fun but these are like real scenes of adults talking yes and even when you get to like the Nolan Batman movies that have that sort of like maturity to them the scenes of adult talking are still like pretty much plot scenes

[01:17:30] they're all plots they're all plot scenes they're all shoe leather they're shoe leather with good dialogue and fun performances but this movie has just like emotional relationship scenes and those emotions are always bottled like Jennifer Connolly is one of the best actors at starting to cry or holding

[01:17:46] in tears she's an actress I love her can we talk about her for a second I fucking love her so she just won the Oscar and like she'd been around she's a kid star she's in labyrinth right you know and then in the 90s she's

[01:17:58] sort of like a like sex pot like it's Jennifer Connolly she's so hot in the habits the hotspot all these like kind of like a temptress like right exactly slightly sort of like trashy movies and then beautiful mind was like kind of out of nowhere game change

[01:18:14] or all the sudden well no no no because there's a lot of record and a dead and wrecking for a dream and Pollack all in 2000 which are all these like good serious performances waking the dead's an underrated movie I agree with that

[01:18:26] and then yeah Reckling for a dream I don't know if you've seen that movie but she's good right this year she also has House of Sand and Fog which she gets an Oscar nomination doesn't get enough she doesn't get it she's like sort of in that movies

[01:18:38] rough I don't love them when she's great and I think yeah but that movie is rough yeah I think she's the third best though I think like because they nominated Kingsley and Agadashle who I think all three of them should be nominated anyway and so she's

[01:18:52] still like at this point like a prestige actress and she's kind of like now the queen of cinematic suffering like she's the long suffering she could be the long suffering wife emotionally or she can be like Reckling for a dream where it's literally like throw everything

[01:19:06] at her because in 05 you got Dark Water which is a decent little harm I think in 06 you have little children where she like has such an uninteresting thing to do yeah that's like Winslet's movie and it's so weird you go like okay so now it's 2006

[01:19:22] Jennifer Connelly is five years on from winning an Oscar and we don't know what to do with her like she's already in a rut I also think she's one of those beautiful actresses she's very pretty I don't know I don't know what it is like I don't know

[01:19:34] why it is that maybe it's just because she plays a lot of like dark characters like she rarely got it like she by the time she's in he's just nothing into you which is 09 but she's also really fucking good in I don't remember honestly

[01:19:46] that movie is bad and it's another one of those things where every time they cut to the Jennifer Connelly plotline you're like Jennifer you don't have to work this hard I know but it's like one of those in House of Sand and Fall

[01:19:56] right but it felt like one of those things where she's like finally I get to play like a not suicidal character and she plays it really sad yeah and then it's just it's just over for her but I mean obviously she's in so she's

[01:20:08] in like the dilemma she's in Noah which is like thank you with her former director which like she's solid all these things but you feel like she doesn't really get got the fucking dilemma we're ma'am yeah but anyway she's good in this

[01:20:24] this is her big post Oscar lap yeah she's good and she kind of it's a rough role Betty Ross is a rough role because it's basically like at certain point you just want to be to Betty Ross like

[01:20:34] what the fuck are you doing this like out of here but I think what helps this movie is making it so much about her relationship with her father and so we're giving her the reins of the story because yeah very shortly after this Bruce gets into the accident

[01:20:48] gamma accident the in the lab he pushes ranking out of the way and stands in front of the stands in front of a big metal ball and everything turns green yeah because like you know the classic Hulke accidents like a nuclear test accident and I guess

[01:21:04] they just which we keep on seeing what we say I'm saying like they decide to link it through that yeah like dual thing of like yes in the past there was a nuclear test yeah and then this is what unlocks it I guess just

[01:21:16] deciding like no one tests nuclear bombs in 2003 so let's not do that I guess that's the idea which like here's a thing I love in this movie like amazing spider-man 2 a garbage film made by garbage people it tries to do the thing where it's like

[01:21:32] oh but he was destined to be spider-man all along right because his father experimented on him so the spider by I forgot I unlocked it yeah like he was always going to be spider-man why who cares exactly who cares this movie is actually saying something

[01:21:46] which is the whole heroism of spider-man is that he gets the powers and realizes they're for good right like and it would be a learning a very tragic lesson but like you know what I mean like fun if he's been groomed for the role

[01:21:58] Spider-man is that he was not a likely superhero who's just to do the right then you want to add this it was a spider and not like another kind of bat not not amazing not but it's just like that they make it

[01:22:12] this whole fucking thing in this movie it's like I think a pretty good sort of analog for like he's got this repressed trauma and the gamma radiation is like the triggering incident you know exactly right it's like it it's not the thing that turns

[01:22:28] him into the Hulk that's been inside of him that's always right the whole damage of his father just a monster right it's not it's him it's his worst or whatever most angry but that's also what happens to people who experience great trauma is it's like

[01:22:42] they usually don't break down immediately afterward especially if it's childhood trauma you know that's fair like very often you have people like Bruce Banner seem really boring and really together and then just have a complete psychotic break at some point you know and yeah I just think he

[01:23:00] you know I think there's some English visuals we go into his bloodstream love it see some of the shit and then it pretty quickly goes to him in the hospital and he's like I feel better than I've ever he wakes up and they're like you should be

[01:23:12] right you should be milked crying at his death bed and he's like no I'm good my bad knees my good knee now yeah I'm killing it right right I don't need a bike helmet anymore yeah and I'm not a loser

[01:23:24] and then which is what I kind of forget is like then Nick Nolte's like great my chance to shine like I thought he lurked for longer he kind of just sort of really once then shows up at the hospital I feel like we skipped the dimension

[01:23:38] and I just love the visual because this is like the most speed race moment is when we're already trucking through that opening and Bruce like goes back home and takes the Kodak photo envelope envelope out of his desk which is such a great

[01:23:52] like alright used to have like a wallet of photos from like the photo developer right and he takes out the Betty photo and then it goes into the Betty photo love that I love any of those transitions there's so great comic book and he

[01:24:06] she talks about her nightmare she keeps on having which is it starts with her earliest memory which is like presumably one of the few times that her and her father seem to have an emotional moment when he took her out for ice cream

[01:24:18] the explosion goes on in the test site and then seeing him and then it turns into Bruce choking her so these two guys being very linked in her mind despite the fact that they seem very different this is true yeah so Bruce is visited by a homeless grandlerman

[01:24:40] who claims to be his father I know I can see that you know it's true yeah this made me think like this is like a scam or something right just like like people could just go to hospitals and do this yeah and that's kind of terrifying

[01:24:56] but well sure you need to hit on an orphan though right or whatever I don't know I guess he's not even an orphan he's like what are you talking about I was raised by these people right if he knows they weren't his biological parents

[01:25:06] but he also doesn't care my parents died in an accident or whatever this is your last name your last name is HALT DOCTOR your last name is doctor David doctor um so he starts yeah he just goes right in he's just like I'm your dad

[01:25:28] I'm your DNA experiment right it's so preposterous but then he leaves him right yeah um I feel like he also has an early combo with Betty around there doesn't he he does I think it's in the lab isn't it when they're at the lab late one night

[01:25:46] yeah I can see what he sees in here yeah yeah yeah falling into those eyes and she's like I'm sorry you're the new janitor right no I'm your ex-boyfriend's father ex-boyfriend's father I might be a mad scientist and what's going on so Bruce

[01:26:06] Bruce turns into the Hulk pretty quickly after this yeah I mean there's sort of like Bruce is having the nightmares the first time you see the Hulk is like 30 minutes in there's that one shot of him standing in the shadowy doorway yes and then at minute 40 it's like

[01:26:18] he's at the lab and I think that's when it is that Nolte starts needling him right because he's there when he has no tea time is he there I feel like he then leaves and then Bruce hulks out smashes some stuff and then wakes up

[01:26:34] at home like it's like it's all in like himself but notice no notice there because there's the moment where Nolte comes face to face with him he goes like it's beautiful my son yeah isn't the first one okay yeah okay with the

[01:26:46] lab obviously Nolte is trying to see like is there something like you know was I right like is this the monster I thought it like right he's like right can you see if he can harness Bruce's mutation right right and and it is like it's an upsetting

[01:27:04] sequence like I think the key to the Hulk dramatically and the reason why I contend like everyone always talks about wanting a Ruffalo solo Hulk I love the Ruffalo Hulk it's really fun it works really well they got the characterization down pat

[01:27:20] the reason he keeps on working is because they're not making him the lead of his movies the problem with the Hulk narrative Lee is that you don't want to see him turn into the whole if the Hulk is told well you want to be upset

[01:27:32] when Bruce Banner loses control which is an athetical to the fact that you've shown up to see the whole Hulk out and smash yeah I mean I don't think that's always true but I think that is the best version like you know because there's there's a character

[01:27:44] no I understand what you're saying yeah like you know there's Hulk stories where and these are usually cheesier ones where you're kind of like oh I really would love the hook to smash all these evil people you know like where Bruce is being bothered in some way

[01:27:56] I also like like the and it's a classic Peter David type story where it's like Bruce is like you know what no I've cracked the code I figured it out I'm going to get rid of the Hulk I'm going to do it and

[01:28:08] you're like no you want yeah the whole kid and so you kind of want him to turn into the Hulk you want him to go crazy but you know that's that's years into a whole thing the difficult balancing act is I think it is it's counterintuitive yeah

[01:28:24] I think dramatically you both do and don't want him to turn to the Hulk you as an audience member want to see the Hulk crack skulls yeah and you as an audience member you want to care enough about Bruce that you feel bad for him every time Hulk

[01:28:38] takes control yeah if that makes sense it's got to be a wolf man thing I mean that's really that's the character this is closest to because the wolf man all the universal monsters were rooted in sort of basic psychological fears yep and the wolf man one is

[01:28:50] what if I don't know what's inside of me what if I can't control myself and also that classic nightmare of waking up in the morning and you're like how did I get here and what did I do right it's alcoholism it's a sort of addiction

[01:29:00] any sort of mental illness it's that loss of control and I I wonder when they'll if they'll do a Hulk story like MCU like if they'll ever do it so apparently universal still has solo rights no they have to be they have like right of first refusal

[01:29:16] or something I think it's something like that but again it would be like a linked deal you know it would be sort of right spider-man thing I think it's even less intense than that but yes universal has some kind of like they released the incredible Hulk right

[01:29:30] but that was before Marvel was like bought by Disney right because Marvel at that point they would contract with the studio for like one release right yeah so do you know not to get back to this thing but I just think this is a fascinating thing

[01:29:42] so like early 90s toy biz has to buy Marvel to save Marvel yeah and place save Marvel I'm sorry and place their heads at the top of the Marvel pyramid right in 2005 when Fiege was like I think we can make the movies ourselves

[01:30:00] and went made that pitch to like Pearlmutter the way they got the money to do that yeah they a took out a massive loan from they take the giant Marillynch loan yeah where it's like a financing plant basically if the first two movies had flopped

[01:30:18] Marillynch would have owned we've talked about it on this very pocket but you know the other thing they did was what toy biz which still owned Marvel right lost the rights to make Marvel toys because they went to Hasbro who they knew could give them a bigger upfront

[01:30:32] payment right so Marvel made greater profits yearly from making the toys themselves but they could go to Hasbro and Hasbro could give them $500 million Hasbro could buy the rights for a long time so then toy biz no longer exist because

[01:30:46] it was like Marvel needed to sell the thing that bought it in order to save themselves yes full circle anyway anyway anyway he wakes up in bed doesn't know what happened knows something's up right well Betty finds him I think like that's a big

[01:31:04] point is that it's not the moment of Bruce waking up and where am I this is when the movie really starts to recenter around Betty's point of view she's the one driving the story yeah so she comes to go you know goes to come

[01:31:16] whatever whatever the hell is it on him Marvel and she sees him shredded purple pants pass out in his bed true and then there's a great cut to like a plate of greasy chicken and him eating it with his fingers I like that

[01:31:32] I forgot about that yeah he's like just looking at him like a feral animal yeah which very quickly like the fucking SWAT team comes in the police come in yeah so you know they find his wallet Ross is on his ass I think Ross thinks initially he's

[01:31:48] collaborating with a hobo banner yes he does it keeps on going like it's impossible that he's doing the exact same experiments as his father why am I doing no yeah you're doing no to get some possible that he's doing the exact same experiments was a pussy got fucking

[01:32:04] same Ellie it's mustache is so clean in this movie I can never get over how sharply it's right isn't like Lebowski it's sort of long way over his left right right and in this it's like this is greatest mustache line yeah but that's they find his wallet

[01:32:20] at the lab I love the lab sequence because it is just like kind of upsetting it's just like a monster sequence you know yeah and they bring him in for questioning right and they lock him in the water tank or is that after second hulking right

[01:32:36] Ross refuses to believe that he's this ignorant this night he figures it out eventually sort of prodding him and saying like it's impossible you don't remember you were four years old you were right there yeah he mentions the test like the bomb test right and clearly

[01:32:50] also mentions like the mother thing he's like prodding that as well yeah and I love he says there's the conversation has with Betty where he goes you're telling me he's following his father's footsteps doing the exact same thing in the exact same space you know either they're

[01:33:06] in on it or and she goes what you think it's you know it's destined predestined and he goes I was gonna say damned and she got a bit of course you would yeah but but I love that notion of just like either way we're dealing

[01:33:20] with a big problem like he's like either this is like the gods are trying to destroy us through this family or they're in on it together right um so it becomes this thing with like the government now trying to figure out how to get a handle on

[01:33:36] but I like that the government in this you're you're on their side apart from Talbot Talbot's just sort of like straightforward asshole who's like what if I could make money off the Hulk where you're like okay good good move that work yeah this is obviously something to replicate

[01:33:52] but I like like Ross I don't know I feel like sometimes in these movies when they're like bring in the helicopters and shoot missiles at them you're like Godzilla's not gonna be killed by missiles like guys should know that here you get every escalation 100% you're

[01:34:08] you're with them and this is also weirdly coming out right when the Iraq war has started and all those scenes will get to them with the cluster bombs and stuff yeah I remember it we're very chilling for me as a 17 year old

[01:34:20] in the theater yeah we've been watching like us blow up Baghdad all day right as we're going into war you have all these military scenes that take place in the desert which is the American desert intense all the big set pieces at the end

[01:34:32] take place in like just big open like sandy plains and mountains and stuff like that which is very bizarre cool and it's also the opposite of like now every Marvel movie is like shot in a parking lot in Atlanta yeah

[01:34:46] I know you know with like green screens or generic type of set they have you know you're at an airplane like fucking landing field or whatever it is and this is just like he's like a big western Vista's where they like CGI in the Hulk jumping around

[01:35:00] I wish they do did more yeah but the thing I love is yeah I think Ross never becomes mustache twirly he always is a character even if you are concerned about what he wants to do to the Hulk you get where he's coming from

[01:35:16] and as I said I think Sam Elliott really smartly plays the limitations of his empathy yes like it's not that he's cruel it's that he knows that he's not very good at connecting to these things emotionally now can we talk about those Hulk

[01:35:30] counts yeah so no tease also from the comic right like that's a comic book idea but like they took a lot of very sort of like small threads from the comic book because we had like we've met banners dogs already right where he's like

[01:35:44] shush they're beautiful like you know it's like a weird poodle who looks like it just ate a homeless person and he's taken one of Bruce's hairs from the bicycle helmet man sounds right and you see him like chopping it up but now that he's

[01:35:56] seen that Bruce like he's triggered Bruce successfully yeah the beautiful I just love that moment where it's like nilty stroking Hulk's face yeah my son like because it's like you know you're my son of here and he points to his like heart and he's

[01:36:10] like but also of here right because he created this thing right it's like it is like you're my experiment but you know when he did it in the 60s or whatever he felt bad about it like he's he's bummed out that he did that

[01:36:22] he wanted to murder Bruce as a mercy killer exactly burdened my son and now he's just like he's so far gone I guess I don't right yeah yeah I think that's it yeah it's like 25 years in jail you know everyone you know discrediting

[01:36:36] his work abandoning his mission like he needs the validation I think that he's actually on to something he thought he'd be fulfilled by janitor work but like it just wasn't doing it for me to know how to mop yeah um so so once he sees

[01:36:48] Bruce like fully successfully Hulk out then he's like I'm gonna make some dogs is that poodle so I remember when I was they don't bite when I saw this in theaters yeah in 2003 or 17 and the movie had a terrible reputation awful by the time I think even reach

[01:37:08] Britain like especially with teenage boys like this movie was hated by teenage boys it was I saw it early went to all my friends it was like get ready the Hulk fucks like this movie rules you said you saw like a screening

[01:37:22] or something I thought like an early screening and I the level of vitriol I got like it actually it it were mad at you it significantly hurt my social standing how much I sold the Hulk to everyone they were like you're fucking there in the loser you're

[01:37:38] you're beyond saving yeah right lied to us liar because this movie came out a month later in Britain which especially back then is not that unusual it came out July here I came out June and July and so it had already had the notorious yeah

[01:37:54] second weekend drop off like I was already aware of that exactly so I was like basically like this movie's gonna be shitty then I saw it yeah and was surprised by one how much I liked it yeah to how weird it was so we all those comic transitions

[01:38:08] ruled yeah but I do remember at 17 being like the fucking scene with the dogs though was that was rough love the dog same I love I think the dogs look great they look weird I love how fucking gross they look I love the audacity of him being

[01:38:26] like I'm gonna do it I'm gonna make a fucking Hulk poodle he makes a Hulk poodle and like a Hulk what do you call that it's like the sort of pit belief what is this you know I mean this thing smoky a pit bull sounds

[01:38:38] right maybe rock no not right it's like a weird looking fucking dog I don't know but I love that they almost look like rat finky like they're so weird and they're sort of like muscles and they're like exaggerated features and his ideas

[01:38:52] like draw the Hulk out by attacking Betty with the Hulk counts right he's using that he is pointed gun it seems like a lot of work because it's a movie and this is cool I know I know I know also he might not be able to afford

[01:39:06] a gun he's got a lot of sides to go looking for a good avenue for it to premiere these dogs he's proud of his new work so the Hulk like kills those dogs p.s. he can't do an apple keynote presentation where he's like

[01:39:20] now I present the Hulk dog yeah he can't do a Ted talk and then hits the next slide but yeah she's in the car the dogs attack and the Hulk comes out I love this movie setting up the idea of the Hulk getting bigger the the angrier

[01:39:34] he gets yeah this scene also is you saying the purple pants look dumb which I agree they do although I love how purple he makes them there I like a purple they are they just do look like CGI like I wish they could look a little more fabric

[01:39:46] what I have heard is that Aang Lee wanted the Hulk to be naked the whole movie and in this scene after his final growth his pants rip off and they use shadows because when he walks away at the end you see Hulk's butt

[01:39:58] and the idea was that his pants hit a breaking point he wanted to do the entire movie like that where it was like through shadows new camera angles through objects you just covered up the Hulk's genitals

[01:40:10] that would be dumb right and that was the thing they were just like this is too silly like it would be silly strain incredible but Beowulf has that scene where like it's like he's fighting Grendel and like there's a fucking

[01:40:19] candle in front of his dick and you're like enough it's the opening credits of Spy who shagged me it feels like a comedy routine it's never good I mean and like honestly and then Watchmen was like yeah we're just gonna have you see his dick

[01:40:31] and we're like I don't think that's really better like then it's just like you're kind of like you're like it's twisted it's a little twisted his dick yeah they had to straighten that thing out and again I remember like being like Dr. Manhattan is circumcised

[01:40:47] he's a radiation being like what did he like hey don't push your politics on me buddy anyway so I love how brutal the Hulk dog fight is because you it's like he's he's squishes their necks he's like getting them in half I love that it's terrifying

[01:41:03] it's very dark though it is a little hard to see some of the action like it's it's it's nighttime right but it but it lends that like horror movie feel to it like we don't none of these Hulk out sequences are exciting

[01:41:15] you know like I remember the audience like like at some of the dog stuff could just because of how brutal it was but it's like watching like a UFC match or something like there's a lot of blood and then there's the great moment

[01:41:26] where then he just looks like a sad little boy at the end of like a tantrum where he tries to like pick her up you know yeah out of the tree it's good I mean I mean I like the Hulk as character I think the performance is good

[01:41:40] I think they make the Hulk a tangible sort of character I think he's well composited into the world watching this movie on Blu-ray it like makes me miss when you had to print CGI on film like when you would shoot a 35 millimeter movie

[01:41:58] do the digital effects and have to print that back onto film because it lends a sort of viscerality and it kind of unites the elements as opposed to when everything's digital yeah it gets that color forms thing I've talked about which the Norton movie has hardcore

[01:42:12] right in this it's like he never looks like a real thing because of how stylized he is and the limitations of technology but I think he always feels tangible like I always buy him as a real character if that makes sense yes which is more important

[01:42:30] to me yeah but after that one you know he unhulks right they catch him that's when they put him in the water she calls Ross yeah they show up sleep dart him put him in the tank bring him over to the desert they weirdly do the like

[01:42:48] you know blackhawk down like Middle Eastern like they do which they aren't you in New Mexico why do they do that it's like the California desert or something right yeah it's like Utah or whatever I don't know yeah it's ridiculous it's like the American Plains

[01:43:04] I mean I literally made a joke we've talked about this on the pub but yeah it is always so funny any any movie set in the Middle East it's just and it's always like some helicopter shot it's like and then you hear in the distance yeah

[01:43:20] and remember heroes the TV show was on right now yeah and that was like they made some decision where they were like that's going to be the whole score is just some lady yodeling yeah well that's like that's apparently the stuff that Michael Dania did like his whole

[01:43:34] score was like Japanese drumming and that sort of choral chanting sure and then he saw the movie and he's like that's what they kept of my work and he was like yeah Danielfman just liked it that he didn't even redo it he just kept it in as is

[01:43:50] he's like that stuff made the cut but they yeah they bring him down there and then like Talbot sort of is able to wrestle control of the case and he at this point a oh well we missed the Talbot Hulk out scene that's before the dogs right

[01:44:06] well he he makes him Hulk out because he gets the information from his father on the phone that he's like let these dogs loose right exactly that's what Talbot basically makes him Hulk out they have that like fight scene

[01:44:22] and then goes to the dogs yeah that's the same hulking yeah but in the process he he fucking pones Talbot so then I love like Talbot coming back as this like comic like right he's got like the the crotch and the neck brace

[01:44:38] I like all this stuff if you want to like file like a claim against someone like if you're like an ambulance chasing lawyer we're like you're on her as you can see I was very injured like the perfect amount of cuts

[01:44:50] on his face when that male truck like rolled over my foot so he's like look if I get you to Hulk out they give me permission to kill you I dissect you we figure out how to make more of you right and I make money

[01:45:04] right if you don't Hulk out then I just get to fuck with you yeah so either way I win and at this point yeah he's like right at first he's just in I'm trying to remember the order of the thing because there's in the water

[01:45:18] tank oh that's what happens first they're trying to drill him no no no I'm sorry first he tries to fuck with him just like in the weird steel cylinder room yes and then he's like fine you can't do it consciously let's see if you can do it unconsciously

[01:45:30] mm-hmm so then they get him in the water tank and try to like brought him psychologically yeah he starts having his nightmares he's like you're having these recurring dreams of yes exactly and that's when he remembers right no no because it's no because David is the one

[01:45:46] who explains that he actually killed the mother yeah like by mistake right it's like they just became one it's quite a line yeah yeah again and it's like that line which I guess is a little later but like that's a line

[01:46:00] when 80% of the theater is like get the fuck yeah really like come on yeah they became one yeah David I'm sorry I'm sorry to interrupt the flow of the show I just have to call something out Ben yes you're kind of creeping me out today

[01:46:16] what well it just your day it feels like you're leaning a little heavy on the peeper thing and it feels like you're creeping me out and I would like it if you could give me some space and give me some privacy okay I do my job

[01:46:26] can you just give me privacy for like 60 seconds yeah all I'm asking for is 60 seconds it's a privacy okay all right I'll leave the room okay thank you okay listen guys now that Ben is gone we've all heard a lot about privacy

[01:46:42] policies in the past month or so right but have you heard about a company being proud of their privacy policy but you haven't but guess what we transfer they are they're all about making file sharing easier for everyone worrying about your privacy

[01:46:56] is the opposite of that I know because I've been dealing with Ben all week so they don't sell you want me to please 60 seconds of privacy it's not about you okay listen the folks that we transfer they don't sell user data

[01:47:12] the way that Ben does they don't snoop or spy on your files the way that Ben does sometimes I walk into the office and Ben's just adjusting the levels on our files editing our episodes and go what are you doing you snoop you spy

[01:47:24] and guess what they don't want to know your shoe size they don't want to know your soft drink preference your shopping history questions Ben pesters me with constantly he's sliding into my DMs like gift field asking me if I like sprite or Fanta okay this is the headline

[01:47:42] and I say this in confidence to you my friends the blankies we transfer serves ads to keep their service free but never never in that creepy I was just talking about blenders 20 minutes ago and now I'm seeing ads for blenders

[01:47:58] kind of way and that's a problem we have in our podcast because we talk about blenders a lot shout out to Alex Ross Perry in fact they reserve 30% of their ad space to showcase the work of artists like directors who are given blank checks

[01:48:12] sometimes they clear and sometimes they bounce baby from around the world it's their way of making the internet a nicer simpler more beautiful place so start sending files see what they stand for at we dot t l backslash not creepy you make

[01:48:28] we transfer try to remember the name of that website it's we dot t l backslash and then just think the opposite of Ben okay Ben you can come back in here right wait a second what what's that empty glass you're holding

[01:48:46] were you holding a glass up to the other side of the door and listening to our conversation no but I'm not creepy a thing I love about this movie and I love almost everything about this but the thing I love about it is it is so small

[01:49:07] and focused in terms of the dramatics you don't have superfluous characters it really kind of just is these five people and most of it it's just the four of them it's like this quartet of like two kids and their bad dads you know and there are like

[01:49:23] so few like even like Daniel Day Kim is like the eighth lead of this movie because he has three exposition lines you know like you could do this movie as like a black box play say for the Hulk sequences yeah and like honestly it

[01:49:39] is a little bit of that you know in the final act which I love well we're getting to that which I'm not the best part right that's when this movie comes like transcendent but that is also when like the 20% of people left in the theater

[01:49:51] are already they're like okay alright goodbye like right you know like the theater is now empty and it's just Griffin being like yeah so they prod Hulk they sort of are drilling him he has the dream he started to unlock some of the stuff

[01:50:05] and then he hulks out hulks out starts smashing things totally lose control and I love that Ross is like the fuck like he's mad that Talbot's been like off the leash here and he's also like complained to Betty

[01:50:17] about the fact that it's out of his control now that he doesn't know what to do and Talbot has those frosted tips yeah just know he's bad yeah which only 2000 kids will remember so they do the foam thing the foam thing is great love

[01:50:27] that doesn't work yeah Talbot's like give me the comically oversized drill yeah but I feel like the foam because with science fiction like sometimes predicts real technology I feel like that's a thing yeah it's like it's like the Incredibles goobals too

[01:50:43] it's just like you just got to slow them down you can't really stop them like the new rubber bullet but I love how Talbot's like big drill won't work I know what it'll do I'll shoot a grenade at his face yeah like in an enclosed space

[01:50:55] he's an idiot and then his most audacious visual moment is the explosion yeah where Talbot goes flying he frees frames and then you zoom out and you see like the whole page of all the different panels so here's the thing I and like I also

[01:51:09] I feel like they hadn't done a frame trick in a while no and he's like remember like because yeah that's still going on because they'll use it for transitions they use it a little bit when he's being transported from the helicopter

[01:51:21] but like a couple of times early in the movie it's just for dialogue scenes like when Talbot sees Betty and in comics because it's like we got to keep the kids attention yeah you don't want to do the equivalent of like shot reverse shot coverage

[01:51:39] sure like a you don't want to have that much just sort of straight dialogue you don't want to stay in a scene for that long if you're going back and forth between characters if you start here like a medium close

[01:51:49] up the next time you go back to that character you want extreme close up with their teeth gritted or now they're like yeah no no I get you I get you so when he breaks it down like that A it's like a deconstruction of how similar

[01:52:01] comics and film are in terms of like us just accepting these weird pushy like visual storytelling styles but B it's like this is a way to make uh of generic not generic but like kind of stayed adult conversation scenes as pulpy as

[01:52:21] and you know comic books are like that sometimes yeah 100% they have to make state conversation scenes pulpy right no it's great which is what you have to do like come out with crazy angles and all of that Anglies yes more like crazy anglies crazy anglies

[01:52:33] so he's hulking out now losing control breaks out of the facility kills Talbot I mean Tabot kills himself and he starts leaping across the desert which again is something that the Loteria movie never like not thought to do which is like weird because

[01:52:49] that's the most classic Hulk thing yeah is the leaping but he bounds around but I love for this for him it's like a weird like it's a there's a serenity to it yeah there's that moment where he's like flying through the sky and the wind

[01:53:01] is blowing against his eyes I love it closes his eyes I love this stuff this is where the movie is like just singing for me and like I love that part and then I love that there's like weird creepy cluster bombs that

[01:53:11] like suck the air out of the room and you know out of the space really good yeah this part's good this much just good yeah and it's just like really spare like broad daylight Hulk in the desert fighting tanks but then there's also that moment

[01:53:25] where he's like contemplative and he looks at the rock and it keeps on fading like cross fading from his face to like closer looks at like the moss on the rock where he's just like considering the elements that's like no one will ever let anyone

[01:53:39] make this again ever we should say that cross cutting with this David Banner is like I don't know maybe I'll do something else and he turns himself into the absorbing man right where if like he touches like a boombox like his hand turns into a boombox yeah right

[01:53:55] and I love that like the bit of his hand getting stuck in the metal yeah cool share shake his hand off but that's like gonna make go to the bathroom pretty awkward pretty awkward this whole body turns into a penis when he touches it

[01:54:09] I was thinking he sits on the toilet because the toilet yeah that works it's just funny because the absorbing man who he sort of is right is like just in terms of power who's mostly a Thor villain yeah is like one of the

[01:54:21] dumbest like I literally like in terms of IQ Marvel villains yeah he's like an idiot and his thing is like I'll turn into metal that'll kill for like a prison god yeah fuck you you seem to have forgotten this his name is like Crusher Creel he's like

[01:54:37] and he's fun yeah he's got like a big bony like caveman head he is visually based off of Michael Berryman who's the character who plays the right yeah like mutant freak right guy from that film um so Hulk military Ross is like

[01:54:55] we gotta get him and take everything we got out on it and Betty's like reasoning with her father to not do this and he's like this isn't an emotional thing this isn't like a thunderbolt thing this is like a human casualties civilian thing yeah they call

[01:55:09] the president they're like what do you casualties they're gonna be casualties because of this fucking thing well the presence fly fishing so they like you know give him permission to send in the jet send in everything they cluster bomb them right and it's whole just trying to

[01:55:23] get a cut or his back and so quickly it gets to like San Francisco because he's able to like bounce I like that you have the moment where he saves the people on the bridge because you just have a little bit of like

[01:55:35] okay this is where they could have gone in sequels with the Hulk learning how to save people because otherwise this is not a superhero movie in any way and and then they finally are able to drop the real bomb which is Betty yeah who calms him down

[01:55:51] right he banners back and submits himself yeah thunderbolt at this right it's like you need to die right like unfortunate but also at this point yes David banner has gone to Betty Nick Naughty and is like look I know I'm doomed

[01:56:08] you can get him down all I ask is that you let me see my son before they kill him now you need this scene because otherwise the idea that they be executed facing each other is stupid right but I guess they pull it off

[01:56:22] and it also I don't know they literally shoot it like a black box theater like they're in this big hanger under like one spotlight what are they going to do to them like are they going to electrocute them or like what's the plan like how are they actually

[01:56:34] going to kill them I don't know and again a gas them maybe I don't know if it's but they're in this incredibly dramatic looking set but also really sparse and it's like the two of them up against like just black abyss

[01:56:46] yes and then Nick Naughty like does a monologue from secret honor right he starts ranting and raving and then there's the great moment when like banner is hulking out but doesn't actually turn green and then Naughty mocks him and is like bookity bookity bookity

[01:57:02] I mean no it is so phenomenal in this scene at this moment in the same time the whole theater is exiting the rose right yeah this is like fucking irreversible right now right like but like 14 year old Griffin sitting

[01:57:14] in the theater going like oh that's crazy the best supporting actors locked up this early like I was sitting there and I was like slam dunk Naughty's taking it cakewalk yeah and he's trying to get banner to like fucking you know

[01:57:28] you know to hulk out but I mean it's just very like verbose monologue with all this like insane like biblical insults like right what is he saying I wish I could and he talks a lot about he explains killing the mother um yes yes that's when he explains

[01:57:44] killing the mother but it's not working and he goes like fine I'll just take care of it myself and then he's the rubber off of an electric cable about this he literally choose the scenery you literally choose the scenery and Ross is like no let

[01:58:02] him do it yeah which by the way no headshot at this point but I guess they don't know that he has the powers yeah but yeah right he's like alright alright that's not gonna work I'll just turn into electricity now the thing

[01:58:14] I forgot as I was watching this last night this happens two hours and two minutes into the movie they don't even get to that point until two hours in yeah and now it becomes this fight that is almost non-literal it's an

[01:58:28] abstract fights is this the part that you miss Ben like because you had to rush over here yeah yeah I mean he fights his dad but it's like no he's actually just fighting his father issues yeah it's a Freudian they literally like go

[01:58:42] through the clouds and they're like that's the best right where they're it's like these flashes of him in the clouds right and the idea supposed to be that's like the lightning illuminating him but it also feels like they're fighting through their entire history yes it's so good

[01:58:56] and whatever you try to do there do this again escape his father like his father becomes the water and becomes the air and electricity and like rock nulty it's the fucking best and everyone is watching this and thinking like I can't follow this this is

[01:59:10] visually weird like right because he really takes a very solid form that's easy to track no and then they turn into absorbing all the elements he turns into a jellyfish cloud of energy you also I guess and I guess if you want to be

[01:59:24] like fair about the criticisms like you don't really know what the dad even wants at this point like what is he looking for I don't know what his like motivations are I'm saying no just gonna like suck the Hulk up right

[01:59:36] he wants to be unstoppable he wants to be proven correct in everything he committed his life to doing right yeah and in that quest he is also now the compass with what that power feels like for him and the one thing he realizes is he has all

[01:59:50] this power but his body cannot contain it he needs the stability of the Hulk genes which can only get from his son right he wants to absorb his son but then he does and that kills it yes 100% right fuck you dad

[02:00:04] he's like a mad scientist character he's like wrong right yeah but massive explosion he literally turned to this jellyfish and then everyone presumes that the Bruce is dead right and it cuts to a year later Betty and Ross having a conversation on the phone I mean like

[02:00:22] for so much this movie it's like Betty is the emotional track for all of this you're right I mean I didn't think about that so much when I was rewatching it but you're right like it's it does it does its best with Betty yeah rather than marginalizing

[02:00:34] her like the Latteria movie does right and they have this conversation about like if there's been any sign of him you know yeah so this is the only thing I just don't like the ending yeah the ending is very like it's very the TV

[02:00:52] show I guess or something where it's like and now he's decided after like obviously being like a monster that should be like thrown into fucking space yeah he's like I'll just go to the South American jungle and fight a militia like right

[02:01:08] you wouldn't like me when I'm angry okay was he gonna smash Venice way like what's his plan? it's gotta live somewhere David no him doing humanitarian work would be him like just literally going to live on the moon yeah staying away from humanity

[02:01:22] well that's what like Ruffalo Hulk tries to do well yeah no it's a I mean that's a classic comic book trope but like Ruffalo Hulk tries to do it because he doesn't want to hurt a person he loves right but in in that movie

[02:01:34] Hulk is scary yeah he smashes things but there is some concept of like well he's sort of aware of it and like there's like there's a balance between these two people but in this movie the Hulk's like an environmental disaster there's no

[02:01:46] like we don't think he's gonna figure it out like after the after the fight with his dad now here's the thing I do you think universal was just like you know leave some room for a sequel maybe this will be a big hit 100% right yeah and

[02:01:58] they hire Zach Penn to write a sequel before the movies even come out yeah and he writes a sequel that picks up with Bruce and Nicaragua great that featured him fighting the Abomination sure classic Hulk villain uh-huh what is that villain he's basically just like what if

[02:02:14] an asshole sort of had Hulk powers you know like he's like like Hulk venom or whatever I think when he was like a twisted version but he's like just a big he's a guy who morphs into a big but also I think

[02:02:26] in at least the comics he's Soviet you know like he's like a Cold War villain so sort of right like what if the Soviets recreated the Hulk experiment yeah um but that was a film that was always like well the movie made a profit

[02:02:40] but everyone hated it so maybe we'll make it someday I don't think we'd bring in Lee back but maybe we'd make a straight sequel with Eric Bonner like it was always kind of a consideration yeah then Marvel gets the rights back goes to universal

[02:02:52] says we'd love to make a Hulk movie fold it into this thing and they still pretty much use the Zach Penn script yeah they do they rewrite it a little bit not only do they use the Zach Penn script which Edward Norton does a lot of

[02:03:06] rewriting on but demands a credit and doesn't get it and it's very fraught which is why he gets pushed off of the Avengers because they had so much difficulty working with him but not only that Zach Penn's hired to write an Avengers movie

[02:03:18] which apparently Joss Whedon had like has publicly said like was that oh it was very bad and I threw it away you know like but he has like a story credit in that film because he went in to meet just to

[02:03:28] direct it and he was like first of all I'm not directing this yeah like this is terrible but the thing I love is that like nothing in the Norton Hulk really negates the Ang Lee whole pretty much a sequel the Norton Hulk is weirdly a sequel to

[02:03:42] this movie right which is impossible yes like and it's not like in the Norton Hulk they're like it was crazy how my dad turned into a cloud they forget that stuff but the basic concept of like I was a scientist I used to date Betty Ross

[02:03:56] Thunderbolt Ross is a military guy you know what I mean that's all cap picks up in the same country that the first movie ends it no I think it I think it picks up in Brazil it's a really yes I just rewatched it and I

[02:04:08] don't even quite remember but it's I think it's Brazil but anyway you know like yeah it is Brazil because there's like favela stuff you know South America he's going around there's like a sort of vague like parkour scene which like was a demand in

[02:04:20] 2000 like the late 2000s where they were bringing parkour back and wants parmour yeah but I love that like as much as incredible Hulk is the one they fold into the MCU the least yeah you can kind of act like English Hulk is part

[02:04:36] of the MCU you can kind of kind of kind of you kind of can it's as connected as Norton is they never ever reference it directly no the only thing and like they barely reference the fucking Luke the Terrier movie yeah right

[02:04:50] but the only reference to that is he mentions like I smashed Harlem one time and you have Thunderbolt Ross yeah Thunderbolt Ross right I mean he's easy but it feels handshake eat but this feels like the last point in time where like

[02:05:02] you know saying like like the Ghostbusters five thing is a similar thing where it's like this property we can't get off the ground let's just take someone fuck it we've done so many like overly sort of strategic takes at this movie

[02:05:16] trying to think through it logically let's just take someone who's successful and do whatever the fuck they want yeah at this sort of scale that will never happen again and for his impulse to be I'm gonna go to the polar extremes of like

[02:05:30] I'm gonna make it as adult serious dialogue base as possible and as comic booky and sort of like pulpy and monster movie at the same time is just like a jarring thing that audiences like are not ready for right they kind of want one or

[02:05:46] the other and they let him make this movie and the movie feels totally of a piece to me like that's the thing it doesn't feel like some misbegotten like you know it feels like Robert Altman's Popeye where it's like if you hire a guy to

[02:05:58] make a popular thing you still let him do what they do you don't go but come on it's got to be this and I agree with you completely I do just want to point out there is Batman begins after this which is a similar

[02:06:08] concept of like let's let the director run with it right you know and that is a little obviously trying a little harder his concept is less insane it's less insane but I mean that's fine like I do think like there's Batman begins there's Constantine well

[02:06:20] whatever you know I love that movie but that's a but they're way there's one other one that was obvious to oh hellboy oh yes you know so there are some where again it's like the director has a pitch he'll do it but you're right those movies

[02:06:32] have a far they all have a far more conventional sort of dramatic structure though in terms of a classic superhero movie arc which this doesn't have because because it's a monster movie I mean this is the greatest anyone's come to doing a successful dark

[02:06:46] universe reboot like this is the template in a way because they've always said our problem is how do we make the monsters like the protagonist you how do you do big budget horror films I get what you're saying but yes well finish your point

[02:07:00] if you know I think this is kind of what you do I agree I just that the thing tragic which all those monster movies are the thing to me and it's like why I'm ranting about the ending of the movie is like there's just nothing in this movie

[02:07:14] really says like sequels universes like what I love about the movie is that that's just not there it just wasn't concerned I think he wouldn't have done the sequel anyway they wanted that and they just were like Ang Lee's genius everyone

[02:07:26] love Crouching Tiger right like no one seemed to question this while it was going on well I'm very Norman who in Britain was sort of like the Britain's closest answer to Roger Ebert he was never like in my opinion the critic but Ebert was

[02:07:38] he hosted this very famous show on the BBC that was called like film you know and he was the guy who was like you know an interesting film blah blah blah blah you know right yeah and he retired right around now like right around when Hulk

[02:07:52] was in production and in his retirement statement said I am so despondent at the idea that Ang Lee who made the wonderful Crouching Tiger is making a superhero movie the Hulk that like to me cinema has died yeah and like

[02:08:08] and I remember everyone was like oh well you know Barry he's old like you know he's become a grump right but like that was like a prevailing notion among the older critical class yes but then it's also like by doing it he became

[02:08:20] the last person to be able to do it in that way except for my favorite thing is that Gardens of Galaxy 2 is totally a remake of this except fun yeah Gardens of Galaxy is another father issue movie it is and it also ends like the final battle

[02:08:38] is fucking I know which I love it's like the same thing turning into rocks and turning into different forms and like fighting their issues out I know I mean that the Hulk's better but Gardens 2 is a lot of fun but I just

[02:08:48] sat there and I went holy shit James Gunn figured out how to make American audiences like everything more enjoyable Ang Lee was interested in thematically now totally it's totally different stylistically it's totally different I want to play the box office yeah so this movie

[02:09:02] had a bunch of bad records yeah the most expensive movie Universal made up until that point was the only movie to open this high and not make $150 million interesting and never before in history had a movie opened above 20 and dropped 70% it drops 70%

[02:09:20] because usually if a thing drops 70% it opened poorly it was or it was like a horror movie that opened to like 18 right nothing had ever opened this big and drop that hard that fast the Hulk opens to 62 June 20th 2003 $62 million he knows and just doubles it 130

[02:09:38] it doubles yeah 132 yeah number two at the box office is an animated film 2003 funny Nemo I just figured you'd get it from that highest-grossing film of that year which in its fourth week is making $21 million impressive a juggernaut film that beat the lion king's

[02:10:00] animated film record correct yes it was like the number six movie of all time it was a colossal hit that was the big entertainment weekly headline was how Nemo beat Neo because everyone assumed the matrix was going to be the bulldozer that summer great movie

[02:10:14] 2003 what a year reload um yes number three is a sequel the second film in a long running franchise that you adore that I adore 2003 second film long running oh oh oh is it too fast to first too fast too furious a John Singleton film

[02:10:36] yes starring Paul Walker Tyrese ludicrous ludicrous Devon a okie and Edda even Mendez they got to bring even Mendez back she was in is she in five credits for a second yeah she reveals that let he still yeah I think

[02:10:50] I think that would be great time to bring her back which in three weeks has made $2 million and even though it like was seen I think is a bit of a franchise killer was like kind of a hit huge it opened a 50 or open a 50 made

[02:11:02] 127 so you know fell off but that's a huge opening for that in 2003 yeah number four is a comedy film very like expensive sort of high special effects who massive massive hit one of those movies that no one remembers that like just made a shit ton of money in

[02:11:22] 2003 is it a big comment oh I know exactly what it is Bruce almighty it's Bruce almighty and objectively reprehensively bad film that made like half a billion dollars yes like I can't remember one joke from it it's not good yeah huge like nothing

[02:11:40] to say about it I mean Kerry is doing his thing it's because it's like it Christians or something no no no no it's just like I'm god I'm gonna make her tits bigger you know like he just like doesn't have any

[02:11:52] bit it was like the last of like the big high concept comedies where you could sell it that quickly in a trailer with like oh here are six funny images yeah but also and then Kerry just going like

[02:12:02] blah blah blah you know he also hadn't done a comedy in like four years that was the big thing was like outside of the Grinch he had been doing like Truman show man on the moon like it was just majestic right

[02:12:12] everyone was so excited that Kerry was in a big dumb comedy again that that's why it blew up I mean well you know what Dick and Jane bow and yes man both made money so it wasn't like his last hit comedy that made like

[02:12:22] two hundred and fifty million dollars yes it did nuts number five is a remake that like I feel like at the time people were like why the fuck would you remake this movie with these people but it was like a solid hit

[02:12:34] and it's like not a bad movie I wouldn't make this one with these people I mean you know what I grew up in Britain in the movie so beloved in Britain that maybe there was more of a backlash in Britain I've brought it up several times

[02:12:46] I'm sorry we have a hard out but I just I could dig into this for two hours okay 2003 beloved film oh Italian job Italian job an f Gary gray joint with Mark Wahlberg Charlie Saren and Edward Norton Edward Norton who famously dissed this film before it came out

[02:13:04] in like some interview he had a three picture piece of shit Paramount they forced him to be in the movie and he hated it refused to do press and then shit talked it while doing press for other movies and then the movie came out and

[02:13:14] people were like it's kind of fun and it did well he looked like an asshole shot himself in the foot on that one yeah and like that was the movie that kind of made a stathom happen it was kind of the movie that made most

[02:13:24] deaf happen like as an actor like it's it's kind of fun I just remember in Britain it was like Italian job in Britain is one of those movies where like they don't even know that it's just okay yeah they're just like what are

[02:13:36] you talking about like the three greatest movies of the godfather citizen came to the Italian job right yeah I did a replacing you were only supposed to blow the bloody doors off yes is that number five that's number five okay

[02:13:48] so that's a box office game regrets go wild the weakest with the regress trailer drink Alex and Emma opening this weekend yeah hollywood homicide dumb and dumber when Harry met Lloyd I saw that in theaters from Justin to Kelly opens at number 11 $2.7 million you're fine I think

[02:14:06] for your heart out not really but okay oh yeah let's wrap up merchandise spotlight this movie did create one of the greatest pieces of merchandise of all time which we all know okay we all know it's one of the few pieces of merchandise that went

[02:14:18] mainstream and has stayed in production since the release of this film I think you're having a laugh I'm not no what are you talking about Hulk hands yeah oh really they came from this came from this which is so funny that they come from this

[02:14:30] move why why did they come from like I was it just I guess someone was like there should be okay of your rod because he was a toy guy with so big on licensing and and still you know running toy business everything that their big thing

[02:14:42] was there had to be a big Marvel movie every year that could be like a toy licensing bonanza yeah which is why like the Tim story Fantastic Four got rushed into production right something else got pushed back and it was like fuck X-Men Spider-Man Spider-Man 2 fuck we need

[02:14:58] a new yeah right so they just made so much Hulk shit they thought it was going to be like a Jurassic Park level like every kids are going to want a Hulk and they made every type of thing and it didn't sell super well the whole can

[02:15:12] the whole cans were humongous and it was this like they are they're very big right and it was also like it was essentially like a new type of toy like it created like a whole new category because then there was a bonanza and none of

[02:15:24] them ever worked as well of making like hands for other characters there were King Kong hands when that came out they made the hands and feed for Fantastic Four right for Trek they made ogre hands that were literally pull my finger great where it

[02:15:38] farted instead of smashing but they were like the idea of like that's every kids perfect toys just big foam hands that you can hit things with yeah and over time they've made whole cans shittier they became plush at a certain point then they became smaller they took

[02:15:52] the electronics out of them the original Hulk hands which are just like big green foam fists yeah with soundboxes in them and there's like a plastic bar and once you get a good grip and you just punch it and it just goes is it Hall of Fame

[02:16:08] fucking hang it from the rafters retire it best merchandise ever whole cans fucking roll and they came from a somber meditative family drama about the way our fathers damage us and us fighting to try to remove that damage from ourselves and make ourselves better people in their way

[02:16:28] I love how the next movie he makes is like Brokeback Mountain yep or he's like oh you didn't like Hulk I guess I'll just make like a blockbuster gay cowboy movie like when an Oscar yeah huge I love the Hulk I hope people have re-watched

[02:16:42] it because of this it's a genuine esoteric film we're never going to get the likes of again and even if you don't love it you know I think people come around to it more recently give it a watch you gotta admire this thing oh yeah

[02:16:56] you know there's a singularity vision that is totally unfiltered. That is like what our podcast is about. It really, you know, it was one of the first movies we wanted to do. Hulking the Hulk. That was the thing we were always going to do.

[02:17:09] It's my ultimate go-to answer for, you know, what's the textbook blank check movie? Absolutely. You only get to do that if you're in a blank check position. Absolutely. And no one questions what you're doing. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, subscribe.

[02:17:24] Ben, you got something to say? I think it might be too dumb. Oh wait, there's a dumb thing you want to do. Don't forget. We'll do it later. Yeah. Okay. So we were talking about the monster universe and I had a pitch for our, you know,

[02:17:37] blank check production company. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. So this is, yeah, of course. The slate. So I was thinking what if they took all of the monsters and put them in one movie, unite the monsters and you could have like Mummy, right?

[02:17:52] Working at and his lab on his bones computer and he's fine. You know, he looks out and then you said bones computer and then he sees like, you know, the invisible man robbing a bank, you know, and then like he brings them all together.

[02:18:06] I guess to fight the ultimate monster. What are you talking about? You know that the original universal movies built to that they have like House of Frankenstein. Did they have a bones computer though?

[02:18:17] No, they didn't have a bones computer, but they do have those movies where it's like all of them are like haunting one house at the same time. Really? Yeah. That's fun. You never get it from like their perspective uniting to fight a bigger monster, but those

[02:18:31] movies are great. Yeah, I say why make one movie about one monster where you can have all of them together? No, that's when all those franchises died out, they put them all in each other's movies. That's great. Yeah. Frankenstein meets the Wolfman House of Dracula.

[02:18:44] Like they were all just these like giant fucking mashup. Maybe like an Ocean's Eleven type thing. Now you got to stew. Thanks to Anger for Guto for our social media. Wait, what's the thing you're going to do? I'll tell you later.

[02:18:56] Joe Bowen and Pat Reynolds for our artwork. Thank you, Lea Montgomery, for our theme song. Go to BlankysOutRide.com for some real nerdy shit. Yeah. And as always, hulking hulking.