In the Mouth of Madness with Angelica Jade Bastién

[00:00:00] Blank Check with Griffin and David Blank Check with Griffin and David Don't know what to say or to expect All you need to know is that the name is a show Blank Check Every species can smell its own extinction

[00:00:25] Last ones left won't have a pretty time with it In ten years, maybe less, the human race will just become a bedtime story for their children A podcast, nothing more Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Yeah, I mean that's good

[00:00:41] I think unfortunately those words might be true The world probably ends with a podcast now, right? Oh well that's it It's just a few episodes of people being like alright, wrapping up Yeah

[00:00:52] In one way or another, I'm saying either like a podcast is directly responsible for our extinction Or the final thing put out there is a podcast episode They get the final word Maybe both I don't know, look if we're lucky It's us, right? We cause mass extinction

[00:01:12] We'll be the ones who finish it off Yeah, and then we also get to do a recap podcast explaining how we ended humanity Mm-hmm People start listening to Blank Check and then they go around axe murdering people That's what you're hoping for

[00:01:25] That's the kind of breakthrough success that I think has eluded us so far Word of mouth Word of mouth That's a viral sensation You create an epidemic of mental instability Alright, I shouldn't have started this on this road I started it, I picked the quote

[00:01:43] World's Ended David, I don't know if you know about it And this is Blank Check with Griffin and David, I'm Griffin I'm David And it's a podcast about filmographies Directors who have massive success early on in their careers

[00:01:55] Are given a series of Blank Checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want And sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce baby And this is a mini-series on the films of John Carpenter Today we're talking about In the Mouth of Madness

[00:02:11] Now, I don't know if you had the same sort of feeling as me, David What was that? But neither of us had seen this or Prince of Darkness before starting this series, correct? Right And I feel like those are the two that people were kind of telling us

[00:02:31] Like get ready for that one The other apocalypse trilogy movies, yes Right, we're sort of seen as the hidden gems I think are the ones that have been reclaimed more only in the last couple of years A couple Whatever Ten, whatever, you know what I'm saying

[00:02:47] But these were the two I was really looking forward to And I think I prefer this to Prince of Darkness Not that needs to be a competition But it seems like you liked Prince of Darkness more than I did

[00:03:00] And people in general seem to be really jamming on Prince of Darkness right now This was my shit This movie is my shit I like this more than Prince of Darkness But I loved it Wow Yeah I mean, no, this movie is incredible Yeah, this movie rolls

[00:03:17] Our guest is silently giving thumbs up because she agrees with the analysis so far But she can just talk She could talk She could talk Just weigh in You can say anything you want And then we introduce you

[00:03:27] This is the weird backwards way in which we do things Yeah, yeah Fuck yeah Is what I say towards In the Math of Madness This is like top two carpenter for me Like I really love this movie And I just had You know, sometimes you're really lucky

[00:03:45] You have like a great first watch experience Yeah I had the luck of seeing this at Music Box here in Chicago A lovely, incredible theater Lovely amazing theater, my favorite in Chicago And they showed this a couple years ago for their Music Box of Horrors

[00:04:05] They're like overnight marathon of horror movies I tapped out at like 4 a.m. though I was like, I'm going home But I was lucky enough to get to see In the Math of Madness for the first time there And like, I didn't really know much about it

[00:04:19] I knew it was carpenter and I was like, oh, I'll probably enjoy it But this isn't one much, you know, many people have talked about And I was like, holy shit, this is so up my alley This is so I agree For moi

[00:04:32] Have you seen Prince of Dark? Like do you like Prince of Darkness? Yeah, I do, I do This is good It's good vibes, but yes, this is So wait, in this marathon, where did it fall? That's my question It was later in the evening, if I'm remembering

[00:04:49] Like it may have been even like a midnight screening So your brain's already a little scrambled, which is good, I feel like I feel like the right context for this movie Is you're hours into questioning what horror is Right, yeah And fighting, you know, consciousness

[00:05:07] Trying to stay awake, yeah Our guest today from Vulture is Angelica Jade Bastian Who very, I mean, you very passionately and quickly I feel like we reached out to you very early on I was like, you got a carpenter and you had a carpenter right away

[00:05:26] You're like, I wanted him to not be the Madness My point is just that we gave you a pretty complete list of the movies Like very early on when carpenter won our March Madness thing We were like, Angelica, this feels like a great opportunity to get her on

[00:05:38] Long overdue and you picked this immediately without a backup Yeah, I mean, I know there's probably Carpenter films that are more precise in certain ways Like the thing And have a more... A different sort of fun energy like they live

[00:06:00] But like this one just really hits the spot for me Because it's doing a few things that I really find interesting Also doing the whole writer as God thing Kind of great for my ego It's like, yes we are, aren't we?

[00:06:15] We are the center of the universe, okay We think it and it happens In that canon, and it's obviously a film that I and very few others defend This is a more successful, let's say conventionally successful Are you gonna say lady in the water?

[00:06:30] Correct, I knew it was gonna be lady in the water But it is, I mean they're very different movies in practice But they're stemming from similar ideas Okay, well, alright In a broad, in a very broad sense It's obviously a more successful movie Leaps and bounds

[00:06:52] But just movies about like the power of artistry Positive and negative It's a great subgenre But it certainly has the risk of being in a lady in the water Like you can feel back patty or you know kind of You know up its own ass

[00:07:12] I mean maybe a good choice that John Carpenter didn't cast himself to play Sutter Cain That would be a good choice That's right But you know For Carpenter as well like I mean we'll talk about it but yeah, like a guy who

[00:07:29] Is at the center of like you know Horror like Halloween like mixing like sex and violence And shocking people and people being like is this allowed You know for like so many years to make a movie where it's like yeah

[00:07:43] Maybe I'm maybe you know maybe horror movies are Horror art is gonna end the world and drive you all insane Like I love that I love him being into this Like that was on such a rise in the 90s This sort of like hand ringing about

[00:08:01] You know the things we consume making children violent And all that sort of thing I remember those days because I was a kiddo And I loved horror and I was like yeah Look how it paid off I'm hot, smart, accomplished Let your kids watch horror people

[00:08:21] Start them early Start them early Put them in front of the mouth of madness Yeah put them in front of the mouth of madness before they're ten Let them know what true cinema is I saw Hellraiser at ten for the first time

[00:08:33] And that's definitely affected some of my taste in certain places I'll just say that and have fun with that kids But what do you know I'm actually good friends with Pinhead Yeah Ben knows Pinhead But you're just buds

[00:08:47] Well we're pen pals but in the sense that we send each other nails in the mail Yeah it's pin pals I love that for you Ben is that the second or third time you've made that exact joke on our podcast? I'm gonna go with second Okay

[00:09:05] The third time it's gonna be great It's gonna be even better So it's funny Griff Here's what I knew about in the mouth of madness I, cause especially once I knew we were doing carpet I'm like

[00:09:17] I'm gonna, you know, I wanna go into anyone I haven't seen fairly cool I knew Sam Neal was in it Yeah It's got that very oblique poster with the book opening And you know sort of screaming faces coming out of it

[00:09:29] So that doesn't really do you any good It's a very specific type of 90s poster where I look at it and I go You're not doing this movie any favors are you? Like it is impossible

[00:09:39] Not only does it not successfully convey what the movie is but you're like I don't even know what I'm looking at I don't even know what this is supposed to be If you see it from afar you're like that's just jumbled shapes

[00:09:49] But here's the other funny thing Griff The one image from this movie that I knew It turns out is pretty much the last image in the movie Like I feel like I've seen the picture of Sam Neal sitting in the movie theater a thousand times

[00:10:02] I feel like that gets memed a lot these days Yes, yes I don't know why I had forgotten it was from this Yeah, what I knew was pretty much what you said But I knew Ben's background now the wall of monsters as it's called

[00:10:19] I knew about that because our friend JD had talked about that How he had seen this like special effects making of TV special and he was a child And was very taken with how those monsters looked And could never remember what movie it was from

[00:10:33] And it was largely because they are so briefly on screen and so obscured That they weren't like visually recognizable And he just had these memories of watching full daylight in a special effects warehouse People working on them in great detail and how good they look

[00:10:50] So I knew that, I knew it was Sam Neal as you said And I knew it was like Lovecraft inspired and that it was about some blending of reality in fiction

[00:11:01] I did not really know how it played out, I think I assumed that well Sam Neal must play Lovecraft Or a Lovecraft figure Yeah, sure, he's the author Unfurled Yeah, I just, he seems like a man of letters But yes, I knew very little other than that

[00:11:17] Just the base elements What a fucking guy Sam Neal is by the way I love him I feel like we just got to go right into explaining how Sam Neal gets to this point

[00:11:28] Run, I mean the fact that he had just, of course he's in Jurassic Park the year before I love him in the piano, he's not the stand out of the piano He has the toughest role in the piano

[00:11:41] But like that he had that the same year as Jurassic Park is special Everyone always talks about how Spielberg had Jurassic Park and Schindler's list in the same year But Sam Neal's quietly doing the same thing in the same year

[00:11:53] Where it's like King of Art House, King of Blockbusters You know, Oscars and Possession is a good one Possession of roles? Right, possession is so What's going on with that movie? You know, and it's funny because that came out the same year as Omen 3

[00:12:09] Which is sort of his like Hollywood breakout It's kind of the same thing He's doing like, yeah Right, it's kind of the mocked you know horror movie Whereas that possession I feel like Was sort of a cult thing when it came out

[00:12:21] And now has become, I feel like That's become a very hot movie in the last, again Sort of revived and people have rediscovered it's so good That's funny He's, and he just seems like a chill dude Like to this day

[00:12:36] Like he seems like someone who never really chased the dollar Nothing, you know, you can chase the dollar if you want to I get it but like he kind of, you know He was in Jurassic Park and he was like Cool, I'm gonna do whatever I want

[00:12:48] Like I'm not gonna be in, you know, anything I don't want to be He's such, go ahead I was just gonna say, like this movie is a pretty wild Cashion of your post-Jurassic Park leading man status You know Totally Which it really is

[00:13:03] If you look at his other films in the immediate wake of Jurassic Park This is like the closest to him doing A studio film until Event Horizon Which is also fucking bugged out I love Event Horizon Freak City, me too It fucking rules

[00:13:19] But he just made some dang ass freak movies Yeah Oh I bet he a freak Oh what if Sam Neill's a freak He should have been I'm putting him on my time travel fuck list I think I'm talking, I fucking know I fucking know

[00:13:33] He's got a big beard, he's like on a farm in Australia or whatever He owns a vineyard Hey have you seen his fucking That's what it is, he's got wine His vineyard's incredible And I went down the rabbit hole of his social media for his vineyard

[00:13:43] And it's fucking great He just posted videos of him just saying what he thinks and feels It's right up by a bunch of grapes But that's what Angelica, that's what I'm kind of talking around here Doesn't he seem quietly like a little bit of a freak

[00:13:56] You know, right? It has to be Yeah, I'm usually good at sniffing that out in a man It's a great skill to have as a woman who dates men And I think he is I agree with you David I now really want to fuck Sam Neill

[00:14:12] From this 1993 to 1990 Yeah, early 90s Right Time travel fuck list Everybody should have it It's funny and Griff, yes we can talk a little Neill It's funny but like He's obviously, he's from, is he from New Zealand? He's from New Zealand He's Irish

[00:14:31] He was born in Ireland but he moved to New Zealand He moved to New Zealand Correct But so obviously he works down there He somehow Oh what a, he broke into European productions with the help of James Mason Correct How did he know James Mason

[00:14:47] I don't know, apparently I did a deep dive on him recently I have to re-familiarize myself here Apparently James Mason sort of brought him into Hollywood and got him the Omen role And he's in possession this But then he's in this TV show called Riley Ace of Spies

[00:15:01] Right That was what helped him almost get Bond He was almost Bond and Timothy Dalton got it instead Which I feel like It probably breaks out okay for Sam Neill You know like I don't know if Sam Neill would have been a perfect bond

[00:15:18] You know anyone who got boxed in by it like a lot of people do Like I don't know I'm gonna find this quote here that J.J. our researcher pulled up Sam Neill, I will read this quote while you look around Griff

[00:15:33] Like he liked playing villains he said I like playing bad guys, characters with mario, ambiguity They're easier to play Good guys, often amorphous, not well delineated Bad guys have psychological defects You know like he obviously just He comes to Hollywood, he's happy to work here

[00:15:50] But he's drawn to stranger parts And it's I feel like even in Jurassic Park where he's playing a good hearted guy He kind of makes Alan Grant You know he tries to make Alan Grant as weird as he can I guess

[00:16:07] Because there's that scene where he kind of harasses the kid With the raptor claw right you know There's this sort of weird ambiguity of his relationship with With Laura Dern where you're like these two together Like what's the vibe

[00:16:24] It's a very unconventional leading man for a movie like that Where you're like essentially he is the one with the emotional arc The emotional arc is he hates kids And he learns to tolerate them He's not married right He does not really have a romantic interest

[00:16:42] It's not like he has to learn how to be a better father Or learn to settle down and be a man Right it's just like kids fucking bug me I'm terrorizing a kid at a dig site at the beginning

[00:16:52] And by the end I've gotten a little bit protective of these two kids Who I decided to not let die Yeah, I mean I get it Fuck them kids okay You've got the Michael Jordan meme to take on kids Fuck them kids

[00:17:10] There was a quote I had in my mind's eye that I couldn't find Now I'm wondering if I can buy in things from just I've been reading Sam Niel stuff for the last couple of weeks But that his thing of just like look obviously I did Jurassic Park

[00:17:21] And I was in the mix for Bond but that's not really what I'm interested in And like as you said he's like I tend to prefer to play villains because They're more interestingly written than having to be the bland leading man

[00:17:33] And it is interesting that the couple of times The larger, this is small budget let's say studio films That he played the leading man in the wake of Jurassic Park It was like this and Event Horizon And other movies where the whole premise is

[00:17:47] Ostensibly normal guy starts losing his grip on sanity Right He's using his handsomeness To his advantage you know to portray The freakiness of a seemingly sort of regular dude Right that he wants to break that facade down as quickly as possible He is also very handsome

[00:18:10] I agree he belongs on the time travel fuck list But I keep on going back to like it makes so much sense To cast him as adult Damien There is something just a little menacing Just even in neutral state I've never seen that movie

[00:18:27] I don't think it's like very well regarded or anything But yes like on paper he is He is wise casting for someone Who is both possibly going to be president and Like is the devil Right he's the devil right son of the devil whatever he is

[00:18:43] Yeah right at that point he's like I mean what it's my brilliant career Right that appears to be the movie that James Mason liked him in That seems to be from my googling What James Mason took an interest in The Gillian Armstrong movie

[00:19:00] Sleeping Dogs is like his first leading man movie And then Brilliant Career I guess is the one that crosses over a little more I think right you have the Possession Omen 3 In the same year and then I think Crying the dark is big for him

[00:19:17] Maybe a Meryl Dingo at my baby movie Right just because it's like Well that's it's a legitimate Meryl movie And he held his own against her Like it feels like from that moment on That's when there's a shift of Hollywood taking him seriously

[00:19:33] And then it's like dead calm at Hunter Redd October Right even still it is surprising That he gets picked for Jurassic Park Like he's not a guy who it feels like Certainly if you think about today When there's like the pipeline of like

[00:19:48] Your yeah you know the leading man And it's like here's dry Courtney We've decided dry Courtney is going to be a movie star And he's going to be a screen test for 15 things

[00:19:57] And he'll get three of them and the public doesn't really know what to do with him You know that he was like The story is famously that Spielberg I think originally wanted it to be Harrison Ford And Sean Connery as Alan Grant

[00:20:12] And why am I forgetting the character's name Oh, Hammond Yes right right But there was the idea of like here's this huge book Here's Spielberg And it's like there's massive bidding war Get the two biggest movie stars to play the parts

[00:20:27] And then he had that realization of like The star of this is going to be the dinosaurs And we're going to spend so much money on the effects Just get good actors Yeah right But he is an odd choice No I mean but what you're saying Griff

[00:20:41] And like Angelica's sigh I'm you know like Think about how the latest Jurassic Park Had Chris Pratt in it and like I don't know how Angelica feels Gross I am uh uh Don't even get me started on these motherfuckers Who are quote unquote leading men today

[00:20:59] I was kind of trying to get you started We're trying to get you started We are attempting to get you started Angelica Okay can I just say something That is on my spirit As many things John David Washington is like the best example

[00:21:13] Of this terrible state we're in For leading men Where it's like He's so Fucking boring on screen I'm like how is your father Denzel Washington Like you don't where's the charisma baby Where's the You know the raw Sort of intimacy that you can have with a leading man

[00:21:33] We don't really get that these days There's not really Many of the younger crop Of actors I'm at all interested in At least the ones who are actually getting roles Are like boring as shit And it's sort They feel neutered sexually too Like I can imagine

[00:21:51] Sam Neil fucking a bitch I can't imagine Half of these motherfuckers out here Have any sort of good strobe game They don't, I have a better strobe game than these motherfuckers I would say this is the problem And it may not even be the actors It's the material

[00:22:07] Is often like You know is often kind of Sexless I mean There was that piece about What was the title but I Forget who wrote it up but everyone is beautiful No one has sex About how sexless our blockbusters are Yeah they are sexless

[00:22:25] I mean American cinema as a whole is not great Like has Chris Pratt Has he ever had sex I'm literally thinking now Passengers Oh my god that movie What the fuck was that movie y'all That was something And that was like Jennifer Lawrence's first Sex scene too

[00:22:45] I remember her talking about it You know and like Guardians of the Galaxy He has like No he doesn't though right exactly he has one nice stance But you never You never really know about it This guy's a playboy and you're like

[00:22:59] I guess you're telling me that he's a playboy His relationship with Gamora is very chased And there's the thing at the beginning of the first movie Where he's like driving the ship He's got a lady in the ship but like It's very Uh

[00:23:13] Whatever they're just trying not to Piss anyone off I guess I don't know I prefer Sam Neill's wild horn dog Energy that we are now kind of projecting on him a little bit But he is really cute Yeah now we're like He's got fucking all these broads

[00:23:29] Yeah this guy is down for anything It's like Sam Neill seems like A nice guy with his vineyard But this is a freaky Movie it's not like This one is It's less sex focused But like you know I just Generally like

[00:23:47] See him as someone who's happy to roll up his sleeves With strange interesting Material and I appreciate that about him Yeah there's also this thing Have you ever seen a memoirs of Invisible Man Angelica? No I have So it's very bizarre And not a successful movie But

[00:24:05] There's four years between they live And that's his sort of big return That's his biggest budget movie ever Working with an established A-list star And it sucks and it kills That A-list star's career And it like sets him back but Sam Neill's Really good in this supporting role

[00:24:21] As sort of just the kind of I don't know the CIA agent Chasing him right it's not a very nuanced part But he does it well And there is this moment in the film that I spotlighted When we did that episode where

[00:24:33] The idea is that the Invisible Man Is holding a gun to his head That he's being held at gunpoint And the way the gag is achieved is very clearly That they have just glued a gun To the side of Sam Neill's head

[00:24:45] And so he has to do the whole thing himself And there's this scene where like in a Wide shot he runs out of his office And down like the hallway Of the offices and he's playing Like The Invisible Man has like you know

[00:24:59] Him in a chokehold with the gun against him And it's like he's levitating Like he somehow walks as if someone is carrying him And it's clearly just Him it's not wire work It's just a very physically Physically committed thing Of like that's a guy who's just

[00:25:15] Here and is ready to get you the best results And has no protectiveness over his star image Is ready to like do the fucking Work and similarly this movie Opens with him going so Fucking Hog wild with these guns Right I love that

[00:25:33] I think it's actually his first line Is I'm sorry about the balls It was a lucky shot That's all like after The first time you see his face After five minutes like he spends The first five minutes of the movie just kicking And screaming and flailing

[00:25:49] With his head down Yeah been there And he's drawn all over himself Crosses yeah And so on all over himself Drawn over his room over his Skin over his his Gown yeah It's got it's it's the classic Lovecraft setup you are introduced To an insane person

[00:26:13] And they're like so what happened You and he's like well let me start At the beginning you know and like I used to be a regular guy Insurance juster you know and that's And then we're off Should I get a little into Context to this movie Griff

[00:26:31] Michael DeLuca The DeLuca thing is Fascinating because we're coming off a couple Carpenter movies I mean not An invisible man obviously But like a couple of movies in a row where he Wrote it Under a pseudonym Right they live he Wrote himself Prince of Darkness

[00:26:51] He's credited as Quatermass I guess those are the two And there were a couple of movies in between There where he was Heavily involved in the script But he uh you know Didn't technically write it But he does write Martin Quartermass And Frank Armadidge are his two

[00:27:09] And it's like both the case of him saying Like well those two movies have so Many influences that it felt weird Putting my own name on it so I create A fake name that's no mage to some My influences but he also sort of said

[00:27:21] Like I was just fucking tired of seeing my name So many times on every movie People maniac Written, directed, edited Scored by, catering by Right what you're saying Griff this is different This is just him picking up a script And being like I like this script

[00:27:37] I'm sure he said Like I made it my own But like this is Mike DeLuca Wrote this script when he was like 22 years old Yeah and was basically Just like what if I made like a modern Lovecrafty kind of tale About you know

[00:27:53] Like a little bit of a creepy beatings from another Dimension trying to take over but it's like sat in the present 22 Wait 22 years old He gets hired onto new line In development when he's 19 He writes the script when he's 22 He had already at that time

[00:28:09] Like he wrote some episodes of the Freddy Kruger TV show Freddy's Nightmares and then he ended up Writing a couple other horror films He wrote Freddy 5 Or 6 Freddy's Dead Which is probably The worst Freddy movie If you're excluding the remake And he wrote

[00:28:33] I believe he may have worked on He didn't he doesn't have a writing credit Oh no he produced Texas Chainsaw 3 Right right So he's been working in the world Of low budget Development guy and new line He's also creatively interested in

[00:28:51] Horror and his writing and producing some of this stuff Himself more hands on He writes Mouth of Madness He wants Carpenter to see it first That's his top choice Carpenter's like this is interesting I don't know Their ideas here I wouldn't know How to do the work

[00:29:09] I have some other things I have boiling right now Maybe I'll come back to this later Then they go to What's your name who directed Who made Pet Simitri They all suffered it to Tony Randall Who made Hellraiser 2 That doesn't happen And then after Memoirs and body bags

[00:29:29] Carpenter is like alright I'm around I want to work on that script The five years between when he first Reads the script and when he agrees to do it Essentially he has a big flop The other things he tried to do Don't come to fruition

[00:29:45] With versions of this movie with different directors that don't go But also in those five years Deluca goes from being Like a development executive to the head Of New Line So he's like you want to do my script He's 27 years old

[00:29:59] And now he can make it a top priority The script I wrote when I was 22 I really want to see this get made I will green light my own script Essentially I am still stuck on the 22 year old thing Bizarre The impression I get is

[00:30:15] New Line in the 80s And similar with Paramount Right with Friday the 13th Those little horror movies No one was minding this store It was truly kind of like old fashioned 30s Hollywood where it was like Hey I know this kid who likes horror Let him in

[00:30:33] That sounds fun Yeah it was probably fun There was probably some bad behavior An early model That had behavior with Deluca But he's like He's sort of infamous as I feel like The prototype for this thing that has now flooded Hollywood which is Movie dork

[00:30:55] Who comes in full of piss and vinegar As a teenager and it's like I know how to do this stuff And it's like It's someone who genuinely Loves genre shit And then at some point has figured out how to Like create the

[00:31:09] Vanir of like a big swinging dick Hollywood asshole Despite being very young So that the other big swinging dick Hollywood assholes Hire them because they're like well you're not a dork You seem to be like a wheeler dealer player

[00:31:21] But you say you like this stuff and you know it So then they just go like I don't know Make your fucking horror shit And then Deluca becomes this notorious like He wears leather And he's fucking like Bad boy and he's sort of like acting out

[00:31:35] All the fantasies of who he wished he thought He was in school and then his His new line tenure essentially ends because He gets a blow job In public at an Oscar party in the late 90s. He sure did. And Arnold Rifkin's house in 1998

[00:31:49] He got his dick sucked While quote several guests looked on And quote That's from the Hollywood Reporter Distraught! They're in like a general room of a mansion And he just takes his pants off and that starts Happening and everyone slowly moves away

[00:32:05] And then Arnold Rifkin has this amazing quote Where he was like yeah I have to take that chair Out back and burn it I'm not gonna invite someone over to my house And tell them to sit in that fucking chair The wildest thing or maybe it's

[00:32:17] Not wild given the Hollywood is like He just sort of successfully leaves New line and reinvents himself As like kind of You know Prestige producer Like he's the guy who did Freakin' social network Moneyball He has three best picture nominations in a row

[00:32:37] He goes over to DreamWorks for four years Kind of bellyflops there and it goes over to Sony, Amy Pascal takes a man And fucking hits it out of the park at Sony And does social network Moneyball And Captain Phillips

[00:32:49] Three years in a row. He has like ten years at Sony and then he leaves Sony To independently produce 50 Shades of Grey He like buys the 50 Shades of Grey Writes himself A little bit ahead of the curve And made a fucking killing on that too

[00:33:05] Now he's in charge of MGM Now he's in charge of MGM Yeah, I'm sorry But you know these Hollywood motherfuckers Especially these men be wild You're literally getting your dicks up At a party That is rude And it was not a blowjob party It was an Oscar party

[00:33:25] It was not a party where it was like Please come bring your penis Like we will be getting them sucked later No, this was just We're gonna watch the Oscars We're gonna have some canapes It was not a BYOP party to clarify But like It is funny

[00:33:43] Gryff or it is New line in the 90s is this kind of I don't It's not quite as disruptive as Like some but like He Greenlit 7 And Boogie Nights and like Dumb and Dumb He was clearly Austin Powers He was clearly like fairly good at picking projects

[00:34:05] Or in the case of like a Boogie Nights Or a 7 being like Do whatever it is you want to do Like here's a fair amount of money Like I imagine It'll work out And like Boogie Nights he gets a lot of credit for I mean it's why the

[00:34:21] Likrish Pizza is at MGM now Cause it's like he has this relationship He kind of made PTA. Yeah, no, I mean his run at New Line pretty much ends Right before Lord of the Rings Which is obviously this like huge transitional moment For them but also

[00:34:37] A thing they cannot sustain and within Like 10 years of Lord of the Rings Coming out, New Line no longer Exists really other than as a label It's like bizarre history But he's jumping in there at a time where it's Like the Freddy movies have been huge

[00:34:51] And the first Ninja Turtles have been huge And they've kind of gotten minted as like Oh, you're not You're not in the film ghetto anymore You don't have any prestige but you've had Crossover success And he simultaneously like Continues to make money doing the things that

[00:35:07] They did before but also adds like Five new sort of tentacles for them And they're like getting Oscar nominations They're having hit comedies, horror movies, action movies Raw Shower like just Uh He just he fucking had a lot of Success. It is bizarre that he also

[00:35:23] Wrote this movie Yeah, I am I'm having some sort of dissonance With all I know about him and then this Movie. Yeah it's hard to reconcile I think Tart Carpenter you know Took his pass at it or whatever Oh yeah totally You know Carpenter In 93 basically was like

[00:35:45] I like that it's a Lovecraft thing There's never been like a good Lovecraft movie I like that it's got kind of old sci-fi A guy like that it's got like a Stephen King vibe I thought it would be fun like He's good at

[00:35:57] He's griff. He's so good at picking Stuff off the pile that I feel like People would probably dismiss His trash right? Like I just feel like so many Of his projects Are the kinds of things that in the hands Of a lesser director people are like yeah

[00:36:11] This is like a six out of ten genre movie Well even if Carpenter refined This script greatly And you know he makes it sound like the reason He passed on it the first time Earlier in the 90's is because he felt like The ideas weren't perfectly executed

[00:36:25] By all accounts all of the ideas Were there from DeLuca Like it is still Wild that he at Such a young age came up with This concept And all the facets of it even if Carpenter sort of polished it you know Yeah totally

[00:36:43] It's not like Carpenter takes credit for like Carpenter's script and I added that whole thing That wasn't a theme that was in the book No no it's right it's in there you're right You're right I want to say a brief aside though About the age thing

[00:36:57] I think it's very easy to get caught up And seeing like very young people do Like cool shit and whatever And obviously he continued to do Other cool shit by everything He was producing And some uncool shit at Oscar for this

[00:37:11] And some really uncool shit and I mean 100% that's exactly right In the public Yeah but it's like easy to kind of As I get older I've just become more aware And I think for women You know you hit your 30s and it's a whole different ball game

[00:37:27] But it's very easy To fetishize youth in a way And I don't want to do that So I just am saying this to the audience Don't fetishize youth Life is bold and beautiful It's something Hollywood loves to do Focus on it less as like An accomplishment

[00:37:45] I'm talking in this specific case but also in general And more just It is bizarre that someone of that age Could have the sort of presence Of mind to conceive of This film I agree because ideas are really Strong and they had to have been there

[00:38:01] To at least carpenter's eye And let him to direct And they're Fairly profound ideas and it's an Interesting mixture of ideas I mean he's pulling together a couple disparate things In a very interesting way I agree And I'm really curious To hear from you guys your relationship

[00:38:21] To Lovecraft because I have Some spicy things to say about Lovecraft but probably not Surprising because I'm black as hell And that motherfucker was Racist Very racist, one of the worst Racist And I don't know if you guys have any Lovecraft Perhaps that is embarrassing

[00:38:41] To admit or something but I I think partly because You know he's someone where people are like I will read the stories, I don't know For some reason I basically only read A couple short stories I've never Delved into him and yeah he has this

[00:38:55] Reputation obviously where it's like Enormously influential Basically sort of a subgenre Onto himself but yeah also a huge Racist Wanted to delve deeper I guess Maybe I don't know That's my exact same thing I greatly enjoy Lovecrafty And things and I largely I love big beasts, people going

[00:39:17] Crazy I like a thing you see and you cannot Comprehend like I love that idea Right I think I just largely say it away Because it's like well other people do Lovecraft stuff or they adapt it Or they sort of are inspired by it

[00:39:31] And I can watch that stuff which isn't as tinged By talking horrible thoughts Because it's not just like oh he was a bad person Who wrote good things that his Fucking world views are Inextricably tied to his work And when other people adapt it or

[00:39:45] Amage it they can sometimes Separate those things a little more Successfully. Have you read much Yourself in Telka? Yeah I've read a little bit of Lovecraft As a teenager just because I Read a lot of horror and Sci-fi and fantasy and I still

[00:40:01] Lovecraft is a great thing to do And yeah you can clock That this motherfucker is racist and it's Like I get really annoyed when people Are like but I mean look at the time He lived in and I'm like no he was Even really racist for his

[00:40:15] I mean also who gives a shit I'm sorry white people are still racist That doesn't mean a damn thing to me You know what I mean? Right It's not one of those things where you're Like well you know there were You know that's how people thought

[00:40:29] He was like this is a good idea That I want to be remembered with Like let me put this in my work Not to be dismissive because I do know people like Lovecraft and I'm sure There's lots but he's also always felt to me

[00:40:41] Like some of where it's like have you read Like a couple Lovecraft stories? You kind of got The picture with him. Yeah. He would kind Of go to the same well over and over Right. Yeah. I did a jerk off Motion this is obviously not video

[00:40:53] This is a podcast but I want everybody To know I did a jerk off It's one of my favorite things to do But yeah like with Lovecraft I'm definitely with you Griffin Like There's a lot of Lovecraft shit Like Lovecrafty and shit

[00:41:09] Shit that like took some of his ideas And then kind of go in a different Direction with it that I really Did because I like that whole Old ones dark shit Yawning abysses Oh existential crises as a human being Looking at something beyond our understanding

[00:41:25] I love all that shit. I don't Love Like something like Lovecraft Country I think that's something that God I hated that show can I just say that You can I didn't watch Lovecraft Country Partly because the buzz on it kind of Curdled so fast

[00:41:43] Yes, I think I'm fine What the fuck was Lovecraft Country About My other reason I didn't watch is like no one Could succinctly define for me like What the hell was? Because it's kind of a mess I mean it's Like the through line Is

[00:42:01] What is Jonathan major's character Tick kind of has Some strange inheritance And Like there's so many different story lines So like Journey Smollett has everything With her sister. Her sister Gets in with the main villain Who Can take other forms Like there's some magic they do

[00:42:23] And you get to see the sister one of the Weirdest story lines is a sister Becoming a white woman And like With that occasion It's so But it's but the thing is it's like Stupid also a lot Of you know colorism issues In the show where it's like

[00:42:43] Journey Smollett's light skin self Is kind of exalted in a way While her sister Who's a or half sister in the show Is a darker skin Bigger woman and The things they do with that character I was like Like do y'all not see

[00:43:01] How you're replicating the same problems That we critique white directors for No one just me That show kind of got I don't know it seems like people turn on that Show because it kind of got As they should but I don't Even understand why they liked it

[00:43:17] At first I remember watching the You know like a screener Early on and I was like I see what this is Doing with the lovecraft shit But it doesn't have a strong enough perspective On it and it's so slapdash Taking so many influences From elsewhere that it doesn't

[00:43:33] Really feel like its own thing Fuck that show Sincerely anybody who thinks it deserved A second season needs Jesus And needs to watch better things in my Opinion. I did not watch it. I have no creative opinion On it. I did not watch it

[00:43:49] Mostly because the vibes I got from it Were what you were saying in addition to Just sort of like a Peak prestige TV messiness Of just like there's way too much fucking going on here And they don't know what they're Actually trying to do but

[00:44:03] It is bizarre the arc of that show Of just like all this buzz it comes out It's very divisive It seems to do pretty well A year later it gets a ton Of nominations is canceled Two days later and then loses every Emmy It's like a very weird

[00:44:19] Yep Very weird Very weird That's why I feel like the approach here Is better. The sort of like let's do a Lovecrafty thing Let's get the vibes But we can make it contemporary We can kind of do whatever we want with it

[00:44:37] And like we do not have to be Inded to his particular type Of storytelling What's so wild too is that this movie Is essentially combining like Lovecraft Stephen King And Elron Hubbard Right like Lovecraft is the thing That influences it most in terms of the vibe

[00:44:57] And the look and the mythology And all that sort of stuff But you're saying like what if there was a present day Author who had the The Lovecraft sensibility Of the success and public visibility Of Stephen King But the effect on its readers Was that of Elron Hubbard

[00:45:17] And also who do you obviously cast To play the composite of those three people Juergen Pro-Shout He's good He's good That guy's got fucking gravitas out the cast Intense casting choice Intense. Is that his real hair? I believe so I don't know He looks great

[00:45:39] He looks great when like The doors of that black Demonic church open And he's just like hey bitches That's right I got your kids I got you And I'm like yeah you do Sutter King You do Did you, I mean he

[00:45:57] You look at his Wikipedia picture which is from two years ago He still got quite a mane on him Nice head of hair Nice head of hair I mean I associate him With Dustboot obviously Right And Dune Beverly Hills Cup too You know like a guy who

[00:46:17] Stoic kind of Like I said a lot of gravitas Like sort of tough German guy I like how wild And funny he is in this Kind of weird and playful He's going a little Little bit And I like it Yeah I think everybody's really Bringing it like even

[00:46:41] Small bit players like in this Movie it just seems like I don't know everyone got on the right wavelength With what this movie Needed from them in terms of performance And it like really works for me How they all play off each other And just the energy

[00:46:57] I love Julie Carmen Who is not really interested What do I know her She's in like one other thing I think She's the mother in Gloria That's what it is She's got the big scene at the beginning of The movie At the beginning And she's just

[00:47:17] She's super hot She's kind of different For a Hollywood leading lady She's got this sort of like Spanish cutie The dark hair and she's styled And she's just cool In this movie She's not trying hard She doesn't seem like she's trying hard at all

[00:47:37] She just sort of seems very Chill opposite all the Intensity I don't know how to lay my finger on this Do you know her about her whole career in therapy Therapy? No I don't know about her career Therapy, what's her career in therapy

[00:47:51] She has a master's degree in clinical psychology That she became a licensed marriage family Therapist Then she became a licensed yoga therapist She works as a drama therapist now In prisons Does drama therapy and yoga therapy At rehab centers Yoga therapy at eating disorder centers School district programs

[00:48:15] I mean she's like I think she was doing it Simultaneous but has shifted to doing it more I mean she still acts But I Think that speaks a little bit To her Interesting energy Yeah totally What I love about her performance Is it's physicality

[00:48:37] When you're introduced to her As Sutter Canes editor She has A very precise professional woman Physicality This is a woman who's had to You can immediately tell This is a woman who's had to move To other male spaces And she knows how to hold her own

[00:48:57] So when you see later in the film As things go left There's a sort of Looseness to her physicality I noticed She could just fall apart At any moment That I thought was really fascinating It makes sense that she has spent this much time On yoga And dance

[00:49:19] And physical theater And stuff And then you got Charlton Heston swinging in For 5C Charlton Heston's 90s are so Weird This is right around Wayne's World 2 Right and you have like True lies You know you kind of end the decade With him narrating Armageddon

[00:49:41] Like it is bizarre for how Kind of like iconic and legendary He was And the 90s are when he starts becoming Mostly thought of as a gun nut Like this transition is happening He did a lot of You can hire me to give you

[00:49:57] Weight and gravitas and shit Right, Wayne's World 2, Tombstone True lies All of these are either like small Supporting parts or like uncredited cameos Mouth of madness Hamlet He's the narrator of Hercules And then the narrator of Armageddon And then the commissioner in any given Sunday Right

[00:50:19] In St. Gravitas, that's his thing He's like I'll come in I'll give you some gravitas And then he's like done because he Has Alzheimer's Then his 2000s are Town and country The main dog The boss dog and cats and dogs The commissioner of dogs

[00:50:39] He's the voice of that His one scene of playing of the apes that I contend is great I think we all agreed was the best part of that movie It's kind of the best part of the movie But yeah He's a surprise But I enjoyed him

[00:50:53] I just think this movie is kind of loaded with those guys Like you're going to pronounce one But like David Warner, John Berner Bernie Casey These guys are just going to give you a couple Fun wild scenes You also have, what's his name Wilhelm

[00:51:09] Vaan, let me get his name right here Wilhelm Van Holmberg Right, who is Vigo the Carpathian And Ghostbusters 2 Right And is one of the henchmen in Die Hard Was a former boxer and is another guy Who just like is so Unbelievably intense on screen At any given moment

[00:51:29] He's the guy who Who shoots himself in the bar Right And he was dropping knowledge on our Poor John Trent character Played by Sam Neal and yet This is just It's an arc that I love so much The guy who's all Swagger, who knows what he's doing

[00:51:49] Is unflappable, someone tries to murder him with an axe 20 minutes into this Movie and he's like a little Miffed but he Dusts himself off and gets back to his day But also his setup is He like busts bullshit for a living And he's the best at it

[00:52:05] This guy fucking sees through everything Absolutely, he knows if you're cheating on your wife He thinks everyone is full of shit He's obviously the Plot is that he's Investigating this author Jesus, what's the author's name? Sutter Kane Reddus Work Who His work is supposedly driving people mad

[00:52:27] And he assumes that this is A ploy by the publishers To just gin up some publicity But he's gonna look into it But I just love the sort of like Big dick guy Gets thrown into a world Like a nightmare world beyond his

[00:52:43] Like, you know, his greatest fears Like the whole journey Into the unknown thing In this movie is so well represented Like the creepiness of their drive Up and the weird shit that they see And the way it like Goes from day to night and all

[00:52:59] I love that all so much I dramatically love movies About people having Their perception of the world destroyed Right? Like in any Like comedically and action Movies and horror movies or anything Where you have this sort of like super high functioning Unflappable character

[00:53:17] Played by some degree of movie star Who slowly realized They have no idea what the fuck is going on And they have no control over their universe I also there is nothing I find More effective in Horror than the

[00:53:31] Am I losing my mind or am I the only Main person Trope, it's because It is the thing that scares me the most Personally With my tenuous grasp on my own mental health At all times, anything that's playing With that juice Of

[00:53:49] Am I the only person who knows What's actually going on anymore Or am I Slowly breaking down Yeah, I'm so glad you brought that up Because that was something that was really on My mind watching it Today I watched it earlier in the morning

[00:54:07] Which is a funny thing to like Get up before dawn and watch in the mouth Of madness, but you know what? That's a great start to your day You did it for us and I appreciate that We did a cup of coffee in mouth Of madness

[00:54:21] I was like, oh let me get my tea And watch Sam Neal lose his mind And think about my own Not strong grip Same Throughout this mini series I've been watching Carpenter really early in the morning Almost consistently And it's been kind of a

[00:54:39] It's an interesting way to start your day For sure Rise and Carp But you know My whole thing is as someone Who is bipolar And has anxiety And has been In a few mental hospitals I'm like usually hypersensitive To depictions of madness Especially in horror

[00:55:03] And not because I need it To necessarily look like Reality, I'm not interested in that sort of Realism necessarily But I wanted to Be able to at least get across That feeling of Psychosis, like I've been in moments Where I really thought I was losing my mind

[00:55:21] And I feel this film gets it I agree I mean, I think probably Historically the movies I have hated The most on this show Or had the strongest adverse reactions to Are ones where I get really upset Over depictions of Mental stuff And I agree with you

[00:55:41] That it's more about I want there to be some sort of Aesthetic truth Aesthetic and emotional truth An aesthetic truth, yeah Which I think this movie gets very well Because like the depiction Of the asylum In this movie is obviously sort of Like hilariously stereotypical

[00:56:01] Right, he's thrown in a padded cell It's all very like- John Glover's giving up Performance that is more over the top Than his performance in Batman and Robin Exactly, his hair sticking up And just another one And yet, like you say There is sort of, I mean

[00:56:17] Carpenter is a very empathetic filmmaker He always has been, so that's why Not that I don't mind Trashy John or Director, but like you know That's why he's on another level That's my other thing too obviously When it comes to depictions of mental illness

[00:56:31] Of easy demonization versus some sense Of empathy and I think you can tell From the way this movie starts Of just like here he is, his face is down He's kicking and screaming He's not going to guy in the nuts Like he's playing stereotypical Especially sort of like

[00:56:47] Val Luton institutional horror movie Person, right? And then the second David Warner goes back to privately Talk to him, now he lifts his head up Now you're looking this guy in the eyes For the first time, he's a real person He's not just a lunatic

[00:57:01] You're having to actually have a conversation With this guy and engage with him And question whether you could so easily Put him into that box And very notably once this conversation starts He gets very quiet, he gets very focused You know? He is not behaving like a maniac

[00:57:17] He's sort of, you know, there's a mild Twitch-iness to him, there is that manic energy But he is really locking in with David Warner And sort of knowing like I've been through this You're probably going to think I'm crazy Let me just tell you what I've gone through

[00:57:31] But that central balance of the thing Of just like how people see you Your awareness of how people see you Are you doing this on purpose Have you given up trying to Maintain some sense of control Of how you're perceived In society

[00:57:47] Versus just like here's this guy, he's fucking broken You know? And he's like excited that someone Excited, but you know Willing to open up to someone to see if he can Break through to them But there's also this guardedness of just like It's probably done

[00:58:03] I don't assume anyone's really going to buy What I have to say Yeah, he's covered in plus signs Like He's very positive is what you're saying Ben Then you go to the story Within the story, yeah Yeah So you're introduced to Sam Neill Obviously we talked about that

[00:58:23] His sort of big swinging energy and all that But I The way I know it's partly that the movie had a smaller budget And they had to deploy the sort of nightmarish Imagery carefully And quickly and kind of subtly Like you know they could not linger on it

[00:58:39] For too long Memoirs was 40 His movies before that were all closer To 3 that run he had But we're in the mid 90's now Not only have budgets changed But standards have changed But like I just like how he's folding In the nightmarish stuff very sort of like

[00:58:57] Obliquely and like Not trying to explain anything at all The guy's weird eyes You know the cop that he has the vision of Being this monster and all that Like no effort to really explain Beyond like I just like All of the early build up in this movie

[00:59:13] It keeps me so interested I appreciate that I guess the opening of the movie is so Kind of you know amped up That's supposed to hook us but like I just like that Carpenter always takes his time Before getting to the banana stuff

[00:59:27] Like Carpenter really is sort of like The third act is where it's going to go bananas Like don't worry like I'll give you what you want later Like please stay with me while I get you involved Like they said that was the main reason

[00:59:39] Deluca was so fixated on getting him To direct this movie over five years Is that like no one gets away With more through the power of suggestion Than this guy. People in their minds I always think that Carpenter shows a lot More than he does

[00:59:53] And that he really saves the big Visuals You know the sort of chaos for the third act But he's able to dole things out Slowly and methodically enough that it does Keep you hooked in And so Once this little Group goes on a road trip

[01:00:11] The road trip is sort of my favorite part of the movie Is that griff Is Hayden Christensen the boy on the bike At the end Yeah At the end, okay Cause I love that boy on the bike in the middle Who like turns into a weird old man

[01:00:27] Yeah oh my god that is so scary to me for some reason It's so scary! I think that's Kevin Zeigers maybe I think it might be I know he's in it too, Kevin Zeigers Yes But Hayden is definitely the one at the end

[01:00:41] Real quick though we skipped over There's that brief moment before they go on the road trip Where they're in the elevator bank And he's hitting on her really hard That is so creepy He is so horny and creepy In that scene I mean he's a dang ass free

[01:00:57] Yeah I'm coming back to the central point here I'm going to get information Be careful Yeah and he's obviously like He's not just hitting on her He's also trying to get information from her So it's like It's kind of a weird mix of impulses On his part

[01:01:17] I thought it was kind of hot though Yeah I mean he is pretty obsessed with Power and control Right? I mean he's a guy who is sort of Methodically fixated And Wants to have that upper hand on everyone around him But also wants to control how people

[01:01:35] Feel about him and can manipulate His own charisma to get what he wants Out of other people Talking about this is like a fucking Troll but like What should we call it Edge of tomorrow Is like another movie that does the same thing

[01:01:51] Where it's like here's a guy who's so good at Fucking talking and lying to people And being able to like get in a board room And spin things however he wants And then he's just thrown to a universe where he does not Understand anything anymore

[01:02:03] And is completely falling apart at the lack Of power he wields Yeah and this film really considered Is broadly also about Control because isn't that Sanity in a way The idea that you think you're control You have some control over how You view reality and you're in touch

[01:02:21] With whatever you know quote unquote Reality is Beyond that how other people see you It's both my understanding of reality And my understanding of how I'm perceived Exactly which is just Super fascinating kind of You know watching Sam Neil fall Apart in the film because

[01:02:41] It kind of leads to Really interesting considerations about What is real You know how are we actually Properly Improperly perceiving the world Around us what are we missing What's behind the veil ideas I just oh it gets me hot I love it

[01:02:59] Well that scene where they go to the hotel And he's arguing with styles about Reality because she's calling out like Look this is the town this is the town from the book There's the church all of this And he does that thing where he knocks

[01:03:11] On the desk and goes like Reality this is reality Hear this with the irony being He's knocking on a desk in a town For a book like his argument Is real things are tangible things That I can hit that I can prove that I can

[01:03:25] Touch that are tactile but it's like But you're saying this in A fantasy world right now You are already trapped in the thing that Isn't real and your perception Of this disk is more real Than what you're saying to me is already Totally out of whack

[01:03:41] Like would you Yeah I would say Sam Neil Like his performance like just his whole Entitled You know king of the universe vibe That's what I love about like The paint the hubris of it where he's just Like no I figured the puzzle out It's not

[01:03:59] What you guys are trying to sell me on It's just a weird old town and I Figured you know like I as I always Do I'm gonna pierce You know the lie here and Emerge the Number one smarty pants once again Like there's so much to like

[01:04:15] It's kind of like you know when You're watching a bunch of camp counselors have sex And you're like Jason's gonna get these guys You know like that same hubris where The audience is kind of rooting for the Villainy like but just in this more Elaborate supernatural

[01:04:29] Metaphorical way I love that Yeah me too It's great this movie rules And then everything goes Insane and everything goes completely wild Another thing that rules is The cut out stuff Where they figure out it's New Hampshire And they love that shit you like the map Yeah

[01:04:49] I do too it's like look at this It's really like solidifying oh this Is one smart bitch okay this Insurance investigator He can figure shit the fuck out And so you kind of go into This weird town and Story with that in mind like

[01:05:05] This is someone who thinks he can kind Of perceive things that others don't And kind of look through the bullshit And put the puzzle pieces together And if the puzzle comes together and it's An image you can't even You know comprehend A pretty ingenious

[01:05:21] Story telling decision in this movie Is that he is asleep And Stiles is driving the car When they go through the tunnel and shit starts Getting really fucking weird So he doesn't see that nightmarish imagery She enters the town And sees that sign already Fairly broken

[01:05:39] So that when he's now seeing Oh that's weird this town's supposed to not exist I talked to the Old lady at the front desk of the hotel She's never heard of Sutter Kane He has no reason to question Reality at this point

[01:05:53] She's viewing it through the prism of Weird shit has already happened And he just immediately goes to This is absolutely a promotional event I mean I just love that he's so confident That's like this is some weird Fucking augmented reality Like

[01:06:09] Launch for the book that you fuckers are doing These people are cosplaying They're acting Yeah And he just hasn't seen The sort of tears at the edges of Reality yet Yeah and even when he does start to see them It takes a little bit

[01:06:27] It has to hide into a certain level For him to be like okay wait a minute Like the fuck Is this that? Especially with the old lady And like You know him coming downstairs And like looking at the painting has changed Which is so effectively

[01:06:43] Creepy to me like if I kept Turning around and a painting was just Changing and people were mutating In the painting I would just be like you know what fuck it This is the point where I either try to get out of this

[01:06:55] Town or I need to kill myself Because this ain't gonna work out for me I don't want to look like some hideous creep And to me the right Well you don't want to look like a hideous creep To me I love the

[01:07:07] That scene is not really in this movie But like you know I guess it's sort of is But like if he gets in his car And tries to drive through the covered bridge Again and just can't leave That is such a good ultimate nightmare

[01:07:19] To me right where you're like no You cross the barrier and there's no way back Right If you try to walk back through the cave and old You just get a headache and you wake up back on the beach again

[01:07:29] What was the thing I was going to say Oh another thing I think this movie does very smartly is The case that he Is telling Bernie Casey about at the beginning Is like you know husband Hires me to spy on wife who he thinks is having

[01:07:43] An affair with him and then I realize they're both Running a con on me so you know This guy is very dubious of the Fact that I don't Necessarily even trust who hires me To do this right They could just as likely be in on it

[01:07:57] They're not trying to get me to solve a problem For them they might be Keeping me into their sham So you know He gets brought in with Charlton Heston And with styles and whatever The whole time he's wary of like This would be a pretty perfect

[01:08:13] Way to promote the new book That the guy goes missing that there's some Mystery around it right I wake up I'm now in a town that's named After the town from the book look They've built the church all of this he's just like Anything weird that starts happening

[01:08:27] It is so easy for him To write it off as I don't know this is what the f**king publishing Companies do like a built to church though I know For promotional purposes I'm not sure they would take it that far

[01:08:41] It's his arrogance that he's willing to accept Any of it is their s**t So if the painting changes he's like Would be a perfect thing for a publishing house To do change the paintings Yeah and he touched the painting When he realized it had changed to kind

[01:08:55] Of see if there was fresh paint I'm like Dude come on now Like think about it also Everything with the The old lady and like Her poor poor husband Shackled to her ankle and then her Like you don't obviously with all the Monstrous things in the film

[01:09:13] You don't see them directly directly But you kind of see her in shadow And the tentacles Tentacles really all that sort of s**t Tentacles roll It's so effectively gross to me What the f**k And all of it has the same kind of Slimey-ness as the

[01:09:31] Thing animatronics Working with the same color palette as well Where everything's this odd sort of like Bruised flesh It's very scary It's very scary but yeah In that scene where they're arguing about reality And he's knocking on the desk and She admits to him like

[01:09:49] 20% of this was a scam Right that's my favorite part It's like yeah okay You had the basic idea right sure We were making up the whole crazy people thing A little bit I did not plan any of this Like what do you think I am

[01:10:05] Right we wanted him to disappear but then We actually can't find him The agent wasn't supposed to go crazy You know like all this s**t But even her admitting that The last 80% of this has been really f**king Real and is scaring me

[01:10:19] Only like confirms his bias Even more to be less trusting Yeah And this is obviously a character So committed to their own View of the world and their Centrality in the world that it's like For me If the I mean even

[01:10:37] The beginning the agent and the weird eyes And the acts like come on Like that's already like what the f**k That mother f**k got shot He's dead that's not promotional Right no Unfazed by it and everyone around him is like Don't you think that's weird

[01:10:53] That you happen to be the guy sitting at the window Of this restaurant when a dude comes in with An axe and tries to murder you And then you get hired to work For his publishing company And you know To find the guy yeah

[01:11:07] Not to sound like Griffin But please please that's how it speaks So well to the current moment where it's like Sounds like griff You know everything is sort of Quietly so Skewed and strange And society seems to be crumbling But the way to get through it for somebody

[01:11:25] Who feels just like I don't know Things seem normal mostly So I guess I'll just sort of ignore The weird stuff right like That's the only way to make it through the day And like that's why this is such a good Depiction of apocalypse Such a good like

[01:11:41] Current like depiction of apocalypse I love that all the early Looks of sort of Affected people are different To like someone like the agent is like Okay this looks like someone You know who's in like The grip of psychosis you know hasn't slept

[01:11:57] Is not taking care of themselves And some people look Like they are you know Have been infected with a zombie virus You have people bleeding out of their eyes Like there's a range of I don't know Of visual triggers of people

[01:12:13] Who are in some way being touched by this thing So that it's all just Generally disorienting Well one thought I was having About the people who are Possessed they have to have read the books Right But I feel like I know the kind of audiences

[01:12:29] That read those paperbacks And I feel like way more people should Have looked like they were on vacation Do you know what I mean Like it should have been more like retired People do you know what I'm saying That was like I feel like one misstep

[01:12:43] You're saying the biggest outbreak should be happening At the airport Yeah exactly Yeah or just Yeah and like beach towns that to me feels Like the vibe But I mean Sutter can is bigger than Stephen King so I mean I think just like everybody is reading his

[01:13:01] Shit like he's just that bitch He's bigger than the Holy Bible It is funny that they bring They mention Stephen King They actually make him a little bit It's a successful version Of the studio 60 thing The studio 60 insisting that SNL also exists Right in this one it works

[01:13:21] Is you're like oh fuck he's bigger than that And studio 60 they're like yeah We keep on getting beaten by SNL in the ratings It's like beat and motherfucker you be cancelled This shows not still in the air There's only room for one of these Dumb things

[01:13:35] It's definitely not room for two Um yeah It's because like one thing of studio 60 Was like about making a mad tv Style show where it's like Yeah this is a piece of shit What we're all idiots I know but in studio 60 They all acted like they invented humor

[01:13:53] Like they're all pulling down like leather bound Books and talking about like Comedia del Arte and shit Like the whole thing is you know shot by Fucking looks like you know Janusz Kaminski is like you know it's So ridiculous that shows Right blowing up its own ass

[01:14:09] Blowing the dust off of vinyl records Of cavemen doing the first two's on first retain I truly am dreading the Aaron Sorkin I Love Lucy thing Cause it's gonna be the sixth It's gonna be monologues about how Important it is that they are making

[01:14:23] Comedy that people see or something Right like it's just gonna be so much of that I have to imagine I think it's gonna be the best horror film of 2021 I'm sort of I may be I'm not sure what's it about From you and that I'm eagerly anticipating it

[01:14:37] But with a sort of like gleeful menace Yeah Sorkin is just I am not on Sorkin's wave lines Look I love him when I love him This feels like a horrible horrible Match For him and I also think the casting Is fully demented Yeah that's gonna be a

[01:14:57] Clunker I just keep imagining Javier Bardem playing Dizzy Arnaz From Pirates of the Caribbean Oh my god Angelica please take us back On topic or say anything Say anything at all What the fuck are you Where the fuck is this road going

[01:15:15] But I wanted to kind of go back to something About like the effective Use of like different people Who become sort of possessed And start changing I think one of the most striking examples Is one of those little kids When Styles is like going

[01:15:33] To the black church and she turns around Cause the ball kind of hits her ankles And she sees these little Gross looking kids Around her car And the one who talks has like these Really fucked up pointy teeth And blood covering her mouth

[01:15:49] And says something like it's mommy's day Like bitch get the fuck away from me Okay See kids Love that freaky little kid Love that the other kids Aren't fucked up looking They're just kids but you kind of think They're all fucked up looking because of it

[01:16:07] You know what I mean? You're like kids are weird looking Yeah they can be Some children are ugly Also and we need to be honest about that We need to tell them We have to tell them My baby is cute And I know that she's cute because

[01:16:23] Some babies are not cute and that is something We need to talk about it There's another reason we know your baby is cute Why? Because she looks like the boss baby And the boss baby was cute enough to sell movie tickets Angelica his baby looks

[01:16:37] Just like the boss baby Okay I'll send you a picture privately I'll have you respond live on air Look David You fucking you brush it off But every single person who meets her goes like It is true she looks like the boss baby She's a baby

[01:16:55] She's a baby She looks exactly like the boss baby More so than any other baby Looks like the boss baby I'm so eagerly anticipating seeing this Real life boss baby but let's go back To end the mouth of madness's greatness What you're saying is true

[01:17:11] And same with the old lady With her husband tied to her Hand cuffed to her ankle Weaponizing small town Cuteness and making it The creepiest thing in the world is always Going to work on me I love the menace Of A bread and breakfast town basically Love that

[01:17:33] What else is going on in Hobbs End Too much it just seems like A mess I know we sort of alluded To this earlier but the When Sam Neal Is trying to escape and is able to Get into the car And keeps trying to escape

[01:17:51] And going over the bridge But then he ends up right back in front of The mutated townspeople I would be so annoyed I mean he did that a few times I would be like you know what Just move me on to some other part of the story

[01:18:05] Sutter Kang Fuck this shit I'm just This movie every time I watch it I kind of discover something new Or kind of hone In on a different aspect And one thing I Really dug about it Especially after seeing a Not good horror movie Soon after

[01:18:29] At a press screening Is its texture It's so textured visually There's like the slimy drippiness Of the monsters and tentacles That you see but then there's also Like the cracked skin Of certain other characters I'm The softness of the pad itself It just feels so dynamic

[01:18:51] In terms of texture visually That even more brings you into this World In a really fascinating way A hard agree Movies often look very flat now They do Too glossy too Very glossy, I appreciate that You can make a cheap movie these days And get it online

[01:19:15] And people can watch it But I do often feel like They have this kind of anonymous flatness To them that can be a little depressing And yeah man, this is a This is a fucking rich movie Visually I miss it I miss it too

[01:19:33] Did you see the fucking trailer for the new Home Alone Griff? Home Sweet Home Alone Disney Plus Home Alone Let me tell you the premise is They leave the kid home alone and some burglars come It's the exact same thing But the thing about it is

[01:19:49] It's got that kind of flatness The sort of straight to streaming flatness And then you think about Home Alone Which is like, that's a movie that was A Chris Columbus movie That was really just kind of like A down the middle kind of Family movie

[01:20:05] And now you watch that and you're like God this thing is, it looks so good Like the grain on this is beautiful Like that's where It looks like Lawrence and Arabia now It is bizarre, yes Oh it has texture and again Like practical, it's beautiful

[01:20:21] The weather looks great, the location filming Is great, anyway That's how sick things have gotten That's all Okay, now Angelica's Laughing because I sent Into the private chat A picture of the boss baby Okay, I was like this is just the boss baby Is his child a cartoon?

[01:20:41] My child is not a cartoon She's flesh and blood She is, I will give her that I will actually give her that Now hold on one second, I'm sending The second photo here Give me one moment It is absurd though And it's like, I don't know

[01:20:59] Especially considering how Cheap Most Carpenter movies were Is amazing how much He just understood How to get the most out of Images, you know Totally, I mean Visually dynamic in terms of framing How characters are blocked I mean it's just Every level visually is just kind of

[01:21:23] Firing on all cylinders Especially here And one of my Favorite Moments comes in the end visually And is the background of both of y'all's Zoom Where, you know It's ripped pages from what we can assume Is Sutter Kane's manuscript And It's like He rips

[01:21:49] I mean Sutter Kane rips himself Apart and then that reveals Like oh these are pages And it's almost like he's opening it up To this other world You don't even see what Sam Neill Is looking at through this Torn Sort of it almost looks like a cave

[01:22:07] Opening in a weird way And you don't know what he sees But you see his facial expression And you're like oh yeah We're in for some shit y'all That's that Lovecraft magic where it's Like you know it's better to see how How it makes someone look

[01:22:23] To look at something than just show it Like you know you're gonna get more out of their reaction And So shot you're talking about the ripped page thing Just that's just classic carpenter I feel like where he's like when I'm going to deploy visual effects

[01:22:37] I'm gonna make sure Oh there she is What a cute baby they do look like boss Baby Oh no boss baby I will say I got the right comparison Did I not You got her in a boss baby pose She's on her You got her in that pose

[01:22:59] She gets herself in that pose You put her on her back she rolls on her tummy Can we also say how well that timed out That Angelica responding to how much Your daughter looks like the boss baby Coincided with you saying how much more

[01:23:11] More effective it is to see How much more effective it is to see Someone react to seeing something Yeah totally and That's something I'm hyper aware Of watching New or horror films Or you know they have these CGI Mostly CGI Monsters and it's just like Ugly

[01:23:33] It's not engaging visually And it's better a lot You guys are right it's better a lot of times to Not see something fully and let The audience's imagination sort of fill in The blanks because what they can fill In the blanks with is you know

[01:23:47] Personally scary to them so it's more Effective What is most wild to me is that Like you read the interviews at the time Sort of bemoaned the fact that he Couldn't use CGI because this is Post-Jurassic Park in T2 And he was like yeah the budget isn't

[01:24:03] Big enough so I'm back to using rubber Again like he was sort of very dismissive Of it and you know Outside of like those two examples And some other very very high Level cutting edge movies so Many of the movies 90s films Without massive budgets that use

[01:24:19] CGI it has aged just So horribly like they did not have The skill and the artistry to know how to Execute it and this movie has One big CGI effect I would say Which is when like Sutter Cain Starts ripping himself

[01:24:33] And it is so effective and it is so Scary it's clearly a very simple Cheap trick But the fact that that's the one Thing that is digital rather than practical And it is an Effect that feels like you are ripping at The seams of reality

[01:24:49] You are tearing the movie in half You transition from that into the More practical thing that we both have Is the background of like the pages And Sam Neil walking into it Whatever but I find that Image so scary to like See a man sort of like cut

[01:25:05] The fabric Of time and space around him And just start peeling it back Yeah and then I really like How you see Sutter Cain a little bit Later in one of Sam Neil's dreams after he is able to Quote unquote well he doesn't

[01:25:21] Really escape the town he is more like Let out So he can bring Sutter Cain's manuscript to The rest of the world And starting with his publishing company But I love that moment Between Sutter Cain And John Trent on the bus And Sutter Cain's whole

[01:25:43] I'm God now I'm like Every writer wants to be able to say that Like why yes my creations are real And I am God now And then when he like Thinks he would he's like Did I ever tell you my favorite color was blue

[01:25:57] And he thinks he wakes up And then every the hair Of the old woman sitting next to him Everything everybody's wearing The way the light Is blue filter Right it's like yeah And then he wakes up again And then he's you know screaming on the bus

[01:26:15] Which is probably what I would do Absolutely well it's such A scary concept that it's like this guy Can just keep on popping up in your head And going like rewrite I've decided to add This and your reality is that quickly Changed around you or is it

[01:26:29] Like you wake up the second time And you're like well now we don't fucking know What to make of anything I you know I Maybe prefer I probably prefer The thing to this But I feel like the thing gets so much Credit for how bleak its ending is

[01:26:45] You know when people talk about that movie This feels to me like Far and away the bleakest ending he's ever had In any of his films. Yeah I think that's why I like it so much. It is insane how relentless The last 25 minutes of this movie are

[01:26:57] Because you have this sort of Oh he breaks through the page The town is letting him free right And we're used to either in movies like this Everything returns to some state Of normalcy and at the end there's some like Shrug look to the camera question of like

[01:27:11] Or is it Or the guy actually finds a way To defeat the thing right And in this it's like no as you said they sort of Just let him go but he infects Everyone with him and things just get worse And worse and worse and worse and worse

[01:27:25] And then you cut back To him in the cell Explaining all of this to David Warner And it's like yeah well you're right that is A pretty bad story and then things get worse They get worse out of The story he's telling. Right

[01:27:39] He's just like yes so is the world ended Yet and David Warner's like I don't want to talk About it so let's get back to you And then like the fucking hospital blows up He's stra- he wanders the streets Like I am legend he goes

[01:27:51] To watch his own movie And he's like right I am a character In a fictional universe and he laughs Because yeah how could you Not do the best ending of all time I mean that's the best ending Imaginable. It's incredible Yeah it's an incredible ending

[01:28:07] The blue scare is so good I just wanted to again I just wanted to It's so simple It's sort of linchin Yeah exactly Just like one unsettling thing Is all you need to do To completely discombobulate the audience It's so good. Yeah Like I think this movie obviously

[01:28:27] Is really good at the like super Weird shit tentacles whatever But there's also yeah like just Really simple Scares that just kind of Cut through everything and leave a chill In your fucking bones The old lady at the front desk with her husband Shackled to her is

[01:28:45] Maybe the image that lingers with me the most And it's not graphic You know it is not Gory but it's just so Bizarre It is like linchin and it's upsetting And there's something Unnerving to how casual she is about it Yeah and just kicking him

[01:29:03] Right her conversation with Samuel Before that her temperament is so weird Because they've established her as the sort of like You know archetypal Nice old lady in a small town And then she starts cursing at Samuel right? Like saying like I don't know some shit or whatever

[01:29:19] Yeah because he I think asked if she did The painting and she's like Hell no Okay And then she's like oh her husband's Suffering by her side like Shackled together A lot of the town Everything in Hobbes End Is very effective With you know something David said earlier

[01:29:43] With regards to using a small town And then sort of Moving things a few spaces to the left Like even when they first arrived There's like no one around Which is creepy There's no one it's empty streets except for The kids and then doesn't see the kids

[01:29:59] Which is another super creepy thing Like okay What? De-stabilizing He pulls that trick so many times And it always works where it's like She looks out the car window for a second And they're like in the sky And she's like huh and she looks again That always works

[01:30:19] Like we said the kid on the bike Who turns into an old man He's got the weird joker cards The focus on the little details Like that's awesome And then yeah I mean the build up in this movie Is so cool and then it delivers

[01:30:35] Like you're like okay but it actually better Be unsettling when you finally peel back The veil right like when you Get to the mouth of madness And he pulls that off too His lair rules Oh yeah He's got a good lair That red lair like that writing room

[01:30:53] Of his would like You know David You guys Angelica As writers would you want to work In that kind of room and that kind of space Would that be helpful for you? I mean I do have a typewriter So I like to fix typewriters

[01:31:09] So if you kind of just had a lava Vibe Yeah I love that Maybe I'll get a lava lamp And sort of approximate that sort of Vibe Like on my walls or whatever the hell else He was doing up in there I was very envious of him

[01:31:27] Like quickly typing out a page And being like finished Yeah You know I was like fuck you dude I definitely ain't writing like that That actually brings up something That Only popped into my head this watch Which was Having a character reading a book

[01:31:47] Is usually boring as shit right So like the way this movie kind of approaches The reading by having Like Sam Neel fall asleep And then like You know it's almost like what he's Reading infects his mind And like his perspective like when he Kept having the dream

[01:32:05] Of you know Seeing the alleyway the cop The cop turns around face gnarled But I was like that's a smart way Of like getting across the vibe Of the book Without you know hearing Voice over of Sam Neel reading What Sutter Cane wrote Although we do hear

[01:32:25] Styles at one point reading From a passage Which worked though I'm confused Angelica Are you saying that nocturnal animals Is not a compelling structure for a movie To have a two hour film where a woman Reads a book and every 15 minutes Puts the book down, calls someone

[01:32:43] Gets their voicemail Reading the book takes a bath Reads the book some more Thinks about some other shit I legit forgot about That movie exist while And I've seen it before I went to press screening, I remember seeing this I saw that shit

[01:33:01] It's self defense, we all had to forget about that We can't have it in our head I just every four months I think did he really do that Is the movie really just her reading the book And then she like goes, oh what a bad chapter

[01:33:11] Well back to reading Does she read it out loud? No What, you just watch her read? Yeah and then you see The book And then you also see some other memories She's having. Don't watch it No I'm not too They just show her reading for like five minutes

[01:33:31] Yeah and then like a cannibal husband Comes home and he's like how are you doing She's like okay I'm reading this book And it's like back to the other Parallel storyline which is the It's so fuck, that's why I'm like You know this movie is smart about

[01:33:45] What it needs to get across With understanding who Sutter-Tain is And how his His work looms Large over the world And it doesn't need to do like a fucking Ten minute sequence where you see one of the Books acted out, like you understand

[01:34:01] The hallmarks you need to understand Without having to spend that much time Exactly Which I think it's just good shit I feel like this is our take-aways Good shit Good shit It's just like And it's also just so much fun To feel like challenged

[01:34:21] By a movie that's not necessarily Like trying to be Some super high brow whatever the fuck That even means these days Piece of work, it's just It's kind of luring you into something It's challenging what you think is real It's fucking with your brain a little bit

[01:34:39] And then it ends Bleak as hell as a reminder of Hey, the world sucks, it's all going to Shit. It's the like the drag me to Hell thing that I love where it's like You're fulfilling the promise on The can, you know

[01:34:53] This movie is about like the fucking Apocalypse and reality tearing apart They're gonna fucking do it, they're gonna show You exactly what they say the thread of the movie is Yeah, exactly and it's just like Yeah, drag me to hell, wow Good ending, you know good endings

[01:35:07] Are hard to like You know especially with genre Works sometimes like You know you remember A lot of other things from From a work but maybe not it's ending But Carpenter has Some really dope endings As a filmmaker You're right, yeah he kind of

[01:35:27] Is the ending killer, yeah The fog ending rules obviously The thing that has very big setting Even present darkness I like The ending Escape from New York is such a fucking Yeah him just walking off He gets out so quickly, right that's the other thing

[01:35:43] Same with Big Trouble in Little China Where he's like not gonna kiss you and then he leaves And he's got a monster in his truck They live, what's the ending of they live They live ends with the fucking Oh it's sexy, yes

[01:35:55] It's the alien tip, so that's great Yeah what are you looking at Oh my god if that happened to me Lord Jesus Have mercy I don't know how I would react I don't know that's maybe the kind of Freaky shit I'm into Maybe Maybe I'm working through it

[01:36:11] Alien sex, yeah no It's good, it's just a bunch of Yeah he's a punchy It's his sort of Howard Hoxie thing Right, he's like I'm not gonna let the you know send the audience out Unsatisfied like he you know I'm an old Bastion filmmaker

[01:36:27] I wanna you know I want to nail It and this might be my favorite of his Endings though like I just love the whole Recursive It's one of the best endings ever, yeah same here Yeah it's funny cause um Vulture was Is a lot of packages got moved

[01:36:43] Around that we do because of the Because of the pandemic and feeling Like certain things 50 best type packages Yeah it was doing like A really big package on best Endings and I remember it was happening Yeah I think it eventually came out

[01:36:59] But like you know we were like In the conversations Amongst the critics and other people At Vulture who were working on it We were like we'll only do like One ending from a filmmaker We're not gonna do multiple like We can't list every wilder Ending or um

[01:37:17] And I I was like I know everybody Wants you know the thing for Carpenter and I get it But in the mouth of madness is Is like to me Such an evocative Gut punch of an ending And then you know Sam Neil Laughing until he's crying

[01:37:37] Just really gets across Like wow this person Is like truly and deeply fucked I wholeheartedly agree I'm trying to Find here Angelica Cause you were sort of even Evoking this but like J.J. our researcher pulled up Some quotes where Carpenter Was just throwing shade at this

[01:37:59] Idea of people trying to And it's now what I feel like Gets called elevated horror And he had a different term here he used But that even At this point in the 90s Upscale horror is the term that Michael DeLuca So Michael DeLuca basically talked about

[01:38:17] Like there's two kinds of horror films There's the sort of low budget stuff And then there's the direct to video And then there's a movie market for Interesting high concept Upscale horror films he's talking about At the time interview with the vampire And wolf he's citing

[01:38:33] His examples which is funny Cause right those are movies like Interview with the vampire is kind of trying to be Like an epic period drama Wolf is sort of a satire like they're not Leading with horror They ask Carpenter about it And he's like that's a terrible word

[01:38:49] And he was just sort of like I like monsters And aliens and shit I don't feel the need To try to impress upon people that I'm doing it In a more serious way I mean he said Carpenter Like specifically Invoked Coppola's Dracula

[01:39:03] As like that was sort of seen as Maybe this is a transition point To horror being A slightly more legitimate genre And that everyone was sort of trying To copy that for a while in the 90s And it didn't really take hold

[01:39:17] You know the fact that wolf and Interview with the vampire Like the two things that Deluca's throwing out There is like these are the two tracks of this Yeah that's Really fascinating hearing Carpenter's perspective on that Just because I feel like we're in a really Weird time

[01:39:35] For horror Where you know the way horror is Talked about is still strange Especially amongst critics like I think There's a lot of critics who just don't fuck with horror And it shows whenever they do a horror Review but it's also like I think sometimes I get this

[01:39:51] Sense from certain filmmakers Who are dipping into horror Now that they're almost embarrassed They're doing horror so they have to make Things like Trauma exploration Like the Guiding thrust of the work Rather than you know actually effectively Scaring people and like Getting under your skin and

[01:40:13] Fascinating things visually I don't know I'm kind of depressed With modern horror From Hollywood It is very interesting to me that Carpenter Was complaining about sort of the exact Same things that are being debated right now Almost 30 years ago Because everything's cyclical Like I'm really

[01:40:33] I'm working on a really big piece Probably the biggest of my career That will be out before the end of the year And I'm not going to spoil what it's about Big red dog right? The fact that you said big several times

[01:40:45] Makes me think it has to be a clip But One thing it kind of led me to do Was to read a lot of criticism From black critics from like You know decades and decades Prior and I'm like we're still Talking about the same shit with

[01:41:01] Representation with colorism With Black filmmakers Being used by the Hollywood system To give the veneer of progress All these things are like So cyclical and it's Really I think important To understand history in order to even Understand the moment we're in

[01:41:21] Thank you for reminding me of this thing That now is slightly on subject That I can bring up that I was going down this route The whole last night was pretty fascinated by I was thinking In another insomniac night Being tortured by my thoughts unable to sleep About

[01:41:37] Roosevelt Franklin Who was like a very early Sesame Street character Who was sort of like the early breakout Character of that show or at least one of them And then got phased out by the 70s He was maybe kind of The

[01:41:51] Elmo of his moment where he was sort of The closer child analog character And he was like a little boy with a stripe Cert and he had a little bit of a mischievous Attitude And Sesame Street was so Specifically catered towards like

[01:42:05] We are trying to create a show that can promote literacy Within inner city children who perhaps Don't have the educational support That they need, right? Like Sesame Street was really designed to represent That kind of city and have that kind of diversity

[01:42:17] And not just be a show for like Small white children and Franklin Roosevelt Was supposed to sort of be like a black Muppet in theory, right? Is kind of coded that way and most Of his segments took place within His school and I was reading Articles written

[01:42:33] In like 1972 Debating whether Franklin Roosevelt is a good Stereotype or not And they feel so similar to the types of things Now these articles were mostly being written by Black journalists in black journals Right? But it's the kind Of think pieces you see today

[01:42:51] And then Fox News gets all the fucking Wound up and goes like Oh, so now they're saying that Cookie Monster has To be canceled. These people Where did they stop? And it's like These debates have been going on forever Forever. These same conversations Always fucking

[01:43:07] Happen and people go, oh so now We can't just enjoy things You know? It's Like an unending spectrum It is bizarre just how much More upset people get Now when things Are debated. Oh totally And I think that also I mean links to something that

[01:43:27] Unsurprisingly is on my mind A bit but people's discomfort with any Sort of criticism that Brings a strong intellectual Historical perspective. It's Oh people can't just enjoy things I mean that's why I'm off fucking Twitter Because I'm like you know what? I can't let it's

[01:43:45] Not and it's you know you let so many other Voices in your head and I think that's Actually not good for you creatively Like you can kind of lose your own Voice amongst the masses Talk about in the mouth of Madness I know yeah That is basically Twitter

[01:44:01] But You know I think that Having a critical perspective is really Important like you can Like for example within the mouth of Madness Can I just like watch it and just enjoy It just as a You know piece of spectacle and horror On a more visceral level

[01:44:19] Of course but it also Invites you to think about really Fascinating subject matter The nature of Madness the nature of reality Our own perspective On ourselves and others And how other people look at us I mean I think those are all worthy Subjects of Consideration and thought

[01:44:39] But also yeah the movie just rips And I think it's it sucks that there's Not more movies that I feel Can work on both levels Both intellectually viscerally Emotionally Visually I think You know in the mouth of Madness is just Really good at kind of firing

[01:44:57] From all cylinders in a way that You don't really see that much anymore And especially You know State side I'm speaking of And especially in horror Yeah Yeah I mean this is He like where I'm just gonna read this verbatim Cause it's really good

[01:45:19] This is from a film threat interview Um People asking about Commentary being put into his work And whether this movie was Ultimately above all else trying to be a Statement on this idea of the cyclical nature Of like art Encouraging violence and yada yada yada

[01:45:37] And he said this is not a new thing When I was a kid and this gets back to also What we're fucking talking about how about the same Arguments are had cyclically over decades And people act like it's a new thing

[01:45:47] So he says this is not a new thing So when I was a kid watching television there were these documentaries on TV asking Or foreign movies too violent This is really not a satirical film But it's based on the idea that Sutter Kane is being told

[01:45:59] What to write by these creatures From the beyond and so when people read this stuff They become possessed, paranoid schizophrenics And run around killing people with axes So in that sense yeah It is a take on the ridiculous premise that television Movies and books can create killers

[01:46:13] But most importantly he says Angelica Hopefully that isn't the first thing On people's minds, hopefully you're screaming Rather than thinking Like this is his whole thing He's always like I'll tell you what's in my fucking mind while I'm making this movie I have shit

[01:46:27] I'm a deep thinker, I have things I want to say But I'm not trying to make like polemic films And primarily My number one concern is I want to entertain people I want to entertain people in the way that the movie Is set up to entertain them

[01:46:41] I want to fulfill the obligations of that genre I want to give them the visceral excitement that they came for And if they want to think about the shit Then fine, they can The other quote I just want to read here So this is from Fentastic

[01:46:57] The French movie magazine from the year before This movie came out And he's sort of talking about how earlier In his career he felt a need to prove to people That he wasn't just a horror guy He was never embarrassed about being a horror filmmaker

[01:47:09] But that he always wanted to do westerns And dramas and seen as someone who had range His quote is I love horror, I love science fiction I had different kinds of dreams when I was younger When I was trying to break into Hollywood

[01:47:21] I wanted to direct westerns and action pictures Then Halloween came along and gave me basically a career And I struggled with it for a while But I've come to understand what a gift it was And how wonderful it was I'm extremely happy being John Carpenter I enjoy it

[01:47:35] Aww, I love that Really sweet And this feels like a movie The guy who's at that exact state in his life And comfort with himself And it is so good that he Got over whatever Like, you know, like so much of the sort of

[01:47:53] Like, ah, I want to be a studio guy But I hate the studios and like I don't want to just be the horror guy But I'm clearly the master of horror You know, like, he sort of came to You know, some sort of self-awareness And self-respect

[01:48:07] Now he just seems like the coolest You know, he's like doing his music And just sort of like, you know Giving these interviews where he like Mouths off and has fun I don't know, doesn't he just sort of seem Like a delightfully Sort of like self-assured Settled guy

[01:48:25] He's like, I'm in Halloween, fuck you It's also funny how In that same interview Where he's complaining about the idea of upscale horror He's like, I don't know, Cronenberg says he doesn't want to do horror anymore Like he already In 1994 was like, this fucking guy Yeah

[01:48:41] I love that I would love to smoke weed with Carpenter And play some video games I think Angelica Hell yeah That's the easiest thing to pitch him on I know, that's why I'm like, hey I'm always the friend who has weed And like in multiple forms

[01:48:59] I'm like, hey, you want an edible, I got an edible You can bring the weed, exactly I got this joint and with Carpenter it would work I do not smoke weed like I do But it would work on him You should have like send out the official request

[01:49:11] Through vulture Like we are proposing a piece in which The two of you smoke weed and play video games And if anything comes up, then cool If not I would love to actually Have a column at vulture That's either like reassessing Films while I'm blazed as fuck

[01:49:29] Or interviewing people while Blazed as fuck I would be scared of Or maybe I would be less scared You know what, maybe I would be less anxious If I just got stoned before interviewing Oh god I'm anxious enough before them already Should we play the box office game?

[01:49:47] Yes, let's play the box office game This movie came out February 3rd 1995 It was kind of unceremoniously dumped By New Line Sort of a betrayal by New Line Because they weirdly like Just kind of apparently Chose between West Craven's New Nightmare and this

[01:50:07] They didn't want them to both come out in the Halloween Period They picked New Nightmare Which is a wonderful movie But it was a huge flop No, it did better than this I feel like it was Not well received at the time People were pretty fucking confused

[01:50:25] Made like 20 million dollars Or whatever This comes out in February And makes 8 million dollars total Like it really just got abandoned Which sucks But And it opened number 4 At the box office group At a weird lame box office Number 1 is A epic movie that I feel like

[01:50:49] Is kind of forgotten Partly because it's not that good But it was It was a big moment For a crucial hottie Sort of A Brad Pitt movie Is it Legends of the Fall Yeah Yes, I actually ranked All of Brad Pitt's performances About a year or two ago

[01:51:15] Where did you put Legends of the Fall? Not high up there Not really I know a lot of people like Kim in it because he's hot And he's got a lot of hair And shit, but I'm like He's like not good in it There's a lot of like

[01:51:33] It was really interesting for him All of his performances because I was like Damn you were sucking for a while dude It took you a minute to find The right balance and figure out your persona It's that right He's that actor who feels kind of uncomfortable

[01:51:47] Just kind of playing the swashbuckling Lady like he needed to kind of Place some weirdos to sort of figure Out how his image worked better I don't know, Griff, what would you say Griff? My understanding of that movie's legacy is just That's the one where the hotness crystallized

[01:52:03] And it was kind of a disproportionate hit at the time Because people had Brad fever But no one really cares about that movie It was just the long hair broke everyone's brains For a moment It's also funny because it's Anthony Hopkins

[01:52:15] Kind of like the peak of his stardom too Like Post's Silence of the Lambs And it's also one of those movies Where Brad Pitt's character You know, it's set in Montana And he's the one who like understands America and Native American traditions

[01:52:29] But also he's like this, you know Super white Bond guy I don't know, there's a lot of stupidity In that movie But it's very pretty I guess, John Toll Sort of a handsome Anyway, Legend of the Fall, big hit It's number one in its seventh week Griff

[01:52:47] Jesus, wow Number one for four or five weeks It's been doing great Number two is And I say this not pejoratively But it is the kind of movie That at the time Hollywood called a chick flick I would say it's one of the lesser Remembered ones

[01:53:05] But it's three kind of major Good actresses It's a road trip movie Is it, okay Is it how to make an American quilt? It's not how to make an American quilt You're sort of in the right zone Yeah, is this the one with Drew Barrymore? Drew Barrymore

[01:53:23] Whoopie Goldberg and Mary Louise Parker Is it Boys on the Side? Boys on the Side Okay, wow I've never seen it either No I know that Mary Louise Parker I think gets AIDS in it It was sort of like one of those kind of like weepy

[01:53:43] comedy dramas that has like social issues kind of woven into the script and this kind of It's written by Don Ruse before he makes directed by Herbert Ross Yes But as much as I've never seen this movie And I don't think this is like a particularly beloved movie

[01:54:03] Wild to imagine Hollywood releasing a Whoopie Drew Mary Louise Parker movie now, you know what I mean? They put him out by it's a Water Brothers release But we talked about this But Fragment Tomatoes came up Fragment Tomatoes is a year before

[01:54:17] There was this era of just doing this sort of like generational women's light drama and they were big And it goes all the way to sort of like The Waiting to Exile but you can kind of like mermaids as maybe a starting point Steel Magnolia's obviously

[01:54:35] I don't know, it was like it was a fertile genre for about a decade there Number three We're swerving Griffin Ben, pay attention This movie I feel like it was your kind of movie It is a I don't know, it's a comedy About two guys

[01:54:57] Who had become very popular as It's the Jerky Boys movie It's the Jerky Boys movie How do you Give clues to the Jerky Boys movie You said it was a big Ben energy movie And you struggled to explain How these guys became popular

[01:55:17] There's no other movie that fits that Better than the Jerky Boys movie I don't know, who are these guys They were fucking, oh it's the Jerky Boys movie They're prank callers I've only ever heard of it I never, not like I have also never seen it

[01:55:33] Well it really is just designed Oh yeah, it's designed for For adults, like It's just for little shits Have you seen the film, because I believe The premise of the film is that the Jerky Boys Prank call the mafia Correct, and I believe Peter Faulk

[01:55:49] Is the mom, or it's no Alan Arkham plays the mom I remember seeing it And walking away and being like Not enough prank calls Too much plot Too much plot, more pranks They forgot what made them good Number four Number four, that's where they be

[01:56:09] Not calling them off you Number four is in the mouth of madness Number five is one of the Hit comedies of this year It technically came out Christmas time But it's gonna make so much money Dumb and Dumber That's another big new line movie Yeah, yeah

[01:56:27] That's another movie Deluca gets credit For spearheading 1994, wow 1994 Lifetime ago I was eight years old I was not even five So I was young Humble brag You got Nobody's Fool, the Paul Newman movie And number six You have Highlander The final dimension Is that three? That is three

[01:56:57] Yes, with Christopher Lambert That is the one apparently The Mario van Peebles is maybe the villain I'm not sure I think that is four No, no, no, you're right It was released in other countries as Highlander Three of the Sorcerer I have also only seen the original Highlander

[01:57:15] I have not seen the Quickening I have not seen Endgame Well they told me This is the thing They told me there would be only one So then when two, three, four come out I'm like what's this shit Alright Alright Number eight of the box office is

[01:57:35] Higher Learning Yes? Okay, I knew some of these Movies sounded familiar I don't know how you feel about Higher Learning The John Singleton's third film Third film, right, yes No comment on John Singleton No comment Fair enough You've also got Murder in the First An underrated crime thriller

[01:57:57] Starring like a prison movie Starring Kevin Bacon That was one of like several 90's Bacon wants to get his Best Supporting Actor nomination movies He gets like a SAG Nom, he gets close or whatever He gave up being a leading man And took supporting roles

[01:58:13] And kept on almost getting nominated And then you've got the 1994 Little Women Still hanging around With Christian Bale Oh, little Christian Bale Mickey Dunst and Winona Trinidad-Lorado Absolutely, Samantha Mathis All those good people, Claire Danes Yeah, not a bad movie Jillian Armstrong speaking of Yeah

[01:58:39] So that's, yeah, but in the Mathematis, no it's just another sad tale Of like you read the reviews And a lot of the reviews once again Are like, shh, Carpenter almost had Me and then he goes all in on Makeup and Special Effects

[01:58:53] The weird guard that these critics had Against like schloss I know, but now you know I think more people dig in the math Of Mathis and definitely see It for what it's worth I think it's definitely gained an appreciation Although I still feel sometimes

[01:59:09] It's underappreciated even by people Who dig Carpenter, like it's not usually The first movie Of his that people will mention Even though it's like one of the first To pop into my head personally Yeah, this is definitely Top tier for me Yeah

[01:59:27] To me too, this is a top 5 Maybe top 3, I don't know, well Top 2, 3 for me But this feels like This is followed by another Sort of major career shift Right? I mean this is sort of the last Carpenter movie that feels Kind of classically Carpenter

[01:59:45] And they all get a lot more bombastic After this Yeah, because the next one is Village of the Damned, then Escape from LA Vampires I haven't seen in years But I remember being very bombastic Angelica do you like any of these

[01:59:59] Sort of late Ghost of Mars and the war Do you like any of the later sort of end of career Carpenters? No, I honestly It's not on my wavelength The way his earlier works Are, I can like appreciate Parts of them is what I've noticed

[02:00:13] But they don't really have The gut punch effect that Like in the mouth of Madness Ass Well, I Gryff, considering this series Has basically been all bangers I am very intrigued by how this last chunk Is going to go Me too, I'm curious But I do feel

[02:00:33] A little It feels a little bittersweet this episode Right, it's the final Agreed on masterpiece This is probably the last masterpiece Right, unless I come in Radical vampires Well, some people love vampires Some people love vampires Bella Swan loves vampires She sure does She does She does

[02:00:59] Can I just say that One of the lines that has stuck with me With this movie is Reality is not what it used to be Because damn, isn't that the truth About everything we're Going through right now David's fucking joking about

[02:01:15] You have to admit, but every one of these movies I rewatched them and like this one hits too hard Carpenter was fucking ahead of the curve And he saw it all And everything feels like a fucking John Carpenter movie Now, like it used to be him

[02:01:27] Heightening his perception of reality To a satirical bent And now it just feels like a Carpenter movie Now everything's at that click Oh, totally We're living in very Serial Destabilizing times And what's a better movie to watch At like 5 in the morning Than in the mouth of Mattness

[02:01:49] To remind you of that Yeah, I mean I love watching these movies And I hate when the movie ends And I look outside my window And it's like, oh yes, I guess I shall return To this hell that we call Our current reality Just as You know

[02:02:07] Less compelling cinematography The people aren't as hot No, no It's not as well written Angelica, people should read all of your work You're one of the best people out there Writing about movies I think in particular you Write about acting particularly well Thank you

[02:02:27] I think that's a blind spot of a lot of critics And anytime you go in Deep on a movie star It's a must read for me Thank you, that really means a lot Acting is one of my favorite things To write about when it comes to film

[02:02:41] Because it's such And there's such a Kind of elusive quality to it It's hard to kind of grab Your hand around what an actor Is actually doing and how it interacts With the editing, the lighting And every The directing, so on And so forth

[02:03:01] But I have some acting essays That are going to be coming out soon So I decided to start writing more About acting I'm just trying to challenge myself As a critic and keep leveling up Love it Yeah, excited to read it Thank you so much for doing it

[02:03:19] You'll be back Thank you guys, this was a lot of fun And I look forward to coming back And cursing a lot Absolutely, we love cursing Fucking rules Yeah, fucking rules And thank all of you fuckers for listening Thank you to fucking Marie Barty For social media

[02:03:39] Joe Bowen and Pat Rounds For our artwork, Les Montgomery In the Great American Novel For our theme song You can listen to their new album Extremely Loud and Cravily Online Wherever music is found Thank you to JJ Birch and Nicolariano For our research and AJ McKeon

[02:03:57] And Alex Barron For our editing Every time now that there's so many more names Every time I'm worried I'm going to flip everyone's name I'm going to give people the wrong Credit or combine two names Into some portmanteau or whatever Whatever, I'm doing fine

[02:04:13] I'm in the mouth of madness Go to Blankys.ret.com for some real nerdy shit And go to patreon.com For Blank Check Special Features Where we do commentaries on franchises And we're finishing up The Mummy The Modern Mummies And the Tom Cruise Mummy

[02:04:31] Its own weird form of modern horror But what comes after that? Can we say it at this point? When's this episode coming out? This episode is coming out October 31st Halloween itself Oh my goodness, are you saying Why didn't you tell me that before?

[02:04:49] I would have brought us boogie ass energy Alright wait wait Can we get some clean spooky takes And we'll put them, we'll just interspersed Throughout the episode It's just me going Wow, Pinhead is hot Did anybody else think Pinhead was hot?

[02:05:05] Just me? Cool, we'll put that throughout the episode A couple of times We'll just sprinkle that No I guess we should announce In the spirit of Halloween That in November Santa Claus is coming to town On the Blank Check Patreon We're doing the Tim Allen Santa Claus Trilogy

[02:05:21] That's true That's our disgusting end of the year I'm not serious I would like to reclaim his upscale horror I would like to make the case Maybe Lamb is not Horror but the Santa Claus Trilogy is It's deranged enough Absolutely, it's body horror

[02:05:39] Body goes through some weird shit It goes too f**king fast He goes back and forth a couple of times He's got evil robots in the third one Anyway, I don't know, that's our episode In the mouth of madness Next week tune in for Village of the Damned

[02:05:53] And as always What can I say, Pinhead's kinda hot