[00:00:01] Blank Check with Griffin and David Blank Check with Griffin and David Don't know what to say or to expect All you need to know is that the name of the show is Blank Check
[00:00:20] Podcasting can be bad, podcasting can be bad, podcasting can be good news, podcasting is a bad idea Podcasting is a difficult prop, podcasting is a scary, is a scary, no it's a, podcasting is a bitter herb
[00:00:43] Podcasting is a dangerous tunnel, when you get out of that tunnel you've got bitter herbs This is good Forget herb David, I never heard a hit podcast that had the word herb in it Herb, you know I say herb sometimes because that's what the Brits say
[00:01:08] And that I get raked over the coals anytime I accidentally say herb, that one really amuses people Anyway, that was great Griffin Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you I practice it with even more stammering and I got nervous, I didn't want to get too self-indulgent
[00:01:26] But this is for me, Gebra, I'm not going to argue this is a perfect film It is hard to argue this is a perfect film Perfect would be, no one needs to be saying that, you can love the movie
[00:01:40] Yes, this is a movie I adore so deeply in so many ways and one thing I will say about it, a hyperbolic statement right off the bat I think this is one of the funniest openings of any movie ever
[00:01:51] I don't think there is another movie that arguably gets this many laughs in the opening credits Here's my only problem with the opening, it's so good I agree You're like, what do you mean people don't like this thing?
[00:02:06] And then by the middle you're like, okay well I can see how maybe this movie threw people a little bit I like the movie but you know what I mean? The opening you're just like, oh baby! It made me think of Stripes
[00:02:18] It's got that same kind of problem where it sets a certain tone or pace or feel And then it's like, oh actually we're going to pivot to a completely different movie
[00:02:29] This is my thing, like you guys know I talked about it a lot, maybe someday we'll cover it Sidney Lumetz the Wiz is one of my 10 favorite movies of all time
[00:02:37] It is also another deeply imperfect box office fiasco that was raked over the coals when it came out And I love it despite the fact that I think about conservatively 50 minutes of it are unwatchable
[00:02:51] Because it's like the stuff that works in it for me works in such a unique way that's different from any other film And I'm willing to forgive the parts of it that just like actively repulse me
[00:03:01] And there's nothing in Ishtar that feels as catastrophic as the 12 minute let's change what the color in Emerald City sequences in The Wiz But similarly, the first 22 minutes of this movie I like as much as I like any stretch in any comedy film ever
[00:03:21] And it sets the bar so high that then the Ishtar stuff which I defend is just inarguably not as good as just Rodgers and Clark fucking writing songs together Yeah, yeah, just we'll talk about it We'll talk about it The podcasting can be dangerous
[00:03:38] No, no, no, anytime they do that I'm such a sucker for the like, no, no, no, no, you know what it's a It's not it could be good could be bad news is bad predicament
[00:03:51] Folks, we're here. This is this is one of those movies I've dreamed talking about since we started this podcast Yes, this is a movie we have talked about right since before the podcast started basically the whole time
[00:04:05] Because it is obviously just one of the biggest blank checks in Hollywood history and one of the most famous sort of like example movies in terms of its reputation
[00:04:13] But also as a movie that I have always defended since I saw it 10 years ago for the first time and was astonished because I thought it was just going to be garbage I just assumed it was going to be straight garbage and then
[00:04:26] You knew it as the far side cartoon Yeah The video store from hell where they only have Ishtar it was the the butt of joke you you learn right like when you're five years old and you learn how to tie your shoes
[00:04:40] You also learn like an ishtar is a famously bad movie like and you're like, oh, okay. Okay ishtar I get it I was talking about it with my sister Romley the other day and she was like Elaine May made movies
[00:04:51] And I was again she's like what movies did she direct and I just said like heartbreak hit Mickey and Mickey New leaf just dead silence on the other end of the phone. I said it's trying to go
[00:05:00] So I know ishtar right that the word she knows even a 23 year old understands that ishtar synonymous with fiasco But I saw this Elaine May well, we'll get it. We'll get into this because let's say what this is this a podcast about Filmographies
[00:05:16] I keep on making this mistake where I say the one thing before the other thing It's a podcast called blank check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin I'm David Tightening up that response time a little bit Okay
[00:05:30] Look, I think it's mostly the just a slight zoom delay but griff did you see this meme in the reddit? So funny one of the funniest things our reddit has ever done
[00:05:38] And cut this out if it's embarrassing that I didn't get it who is I couldn't put it together in my in my head Who I'm supposed to be here I could I is it is it about Schmidt I couldn't identify what movie it is
[00:05:52] Okay, but you just thought it was funny anyway It is funny the meme is like a four panel comic strip of the Joe Bowen David cartoon face super imposed over the body of a live action man
[00:06:03] In three different casual positions. He's like sitting on a bench. He's walking down a street and then the fourth panel just says and I'm David Yes, and yeah, take too long. You're taking your leisurely time to get to your name
[00:06:16] Okay, that's it. I was just like who I work. Okay. I was just trying to figure out if there was some deeper reference That's all okay carry on. I'm sorry for slowing David David We need to do you were trying to take that meme down ish tar style
[00:06:28] You were like the press you had your knives out. It was an assassination attempt It was attempted coup and the fact that it was unsuccessful doesn't mean we shouldn't be taking it seriously
[00:06:36] It was the most upvoted post of all time on our subreddit. That's great jokes perfect jokes. It's the reddit of Ishar jokes It's a podcast about filmography is directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make
[00:06:51] Whatever crazy passion products they want and sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce baby Here's a perfect Case study of that exact phenomenon Yeah, the huge big career huge career before making films makes two hits and then makes two colossal failures
[00:07:12] But like Mikey and Nikki is a is a financial disappointment, but this is a a World famous bomb. This is one of the most famous bombs This is it a whole other level if it weren't for ish tar
[00:07:24] We would say like oh Mikey and Nikki is a huge bounce. It's just a charade her read defines what a bounce could be We're of course talking about Elaine May the great Elaine May
[00:07:34] We've gotten to what is unfortunately as of this moment her fourth and final film although hopefully she Makes I keep on forgetting what's called crack pot supposedly is what her final or her next sorry movie will be called but Shrug who knows fingers crossed?
[00:07:51] it of course is a Many series called the pod break cast But it was almost called podcast tar Because today we're talking about ish chart now our guest is being so polite so good Almost too good
[00:08:08] We don't we don't want to be good. We want him to be bad. We want to be a bad boy Do you know how hard it is tonight? That's why I want you to interject that's a Travis. That's a Travis McElroy move
[00:08:24] There's no way that Travis sat quietly before you said his name introduced him when he was absolutely not And like that's the whole thing like it's just just just burst on in I don't want anyone feeling
[00:08:36] You know pent up. Okay good well then I can say do you know Gary Larson? Apologized I do it's the only time he's yeah ever apologized for one of his comic strips Of all the things he's done
[00:08:49] He said that's the one I regret because I did it without ever seeing ish tar which I think plays to the whole I'm sorry Okay, all right get it done. I mean I'm in the water
[00:09:00] Our guest today is Clint McElroy. Let's just say Clint McElroy from the adventure zone. Yay Oh, wait. Sorry. I cheered myself Hey, you deserve it. Um, I had one of those, you know, you know farside anniversary books where like Gary Larson offers commentary
[00:09:16] Right, you know, oh, and I remember him apologizing. He apologizes in that where he's like I watched his story It's good like can I can I read his apology? Yes. It's very good read it read it properly
[00:09:28] Yes, so it's just it's just hell's video store and the entire store stocked with nothing but copies of ish tar Right, that's the whole the whole joke. It's not his best work
[00:09:37] I'm gonna say this actually beyond not liking ish tar or liking ish tar. I love Gary Larson That one's a five not not enough cows, but he writes When I drew the above cartoon, I had not actually seen ish tar years later
[00:09:51] I saw it on an airplane and was stunned at what was happening to me I was actually being entertained sure. Maybe it's not the greatest film ever made But my cartoon was way off the mark. There are so many cartoons for which I should probably write an apology
[00:10:05] But this is the only one which compels me to do so I do think that's kind of at the root of the entire thing as you were saying Clint Yeah, that's so relative to it because just like you were mentioning that your your sister
[00:10:18] Yeah, oh, yeah ish jar. I know ish tar and I think that was what it was it to me It's the first time I can ever remember because I mean obviously I was Alive when the movie came out. I was alive
[00:10:32] I wasn't conned, you know cognizant of what was going on No I and it's the first time I can ever remember reviews that started Ended and in the middle of focused on the budget all it cost so much money to make all because it's it's you know
[00:10:49] It wasn't until you know like reviews of Titanic that I can never remember but this was Maybe that's about it like that rare thing where it becomes the public discourse for ordinary people walking into the theater
[00:11:03] It's like I heard this thing cost a fortune and I get if you watch this movie being told it cost a fortune You might be like it did yeah, like what why did this cost a fortune?
[00:11:12] I get that they went to the Middle East, but I mean to North Africa But like what the fuck the whole story about that framing is so fascinating
[00:11:19] But let's also just say David water world comes out like eight years after this right nine years after this it's 95 or 96 sure yeah mid 90s. What is it? Yeah? And when the press was writing about water world going over budget and over scheduled they called it fish tar
[00:11:36] Well, that's funny. It's great I gave them five comedy points, but the shadow of his tar was so large They did also call it Kevin's Gate, of course No, no that was
[00:11:47] Right right because Costner was in a similar position to baby one could argue where they were like We're just ready for you to fucking fail you egomaniac. Yeah you you hot asshole You can make movies and star in them and win Oscars
[00:12:02] We're coming for you buddy. Yes, and the dances of wolves, you know is a huge hit then they're like Well, all right. You got away with that one
[00:12:09] We're still watching you buddy and I think one of the great crimes of of ishtar in the way it was handled No way was treated was that
[00:12:19] It to me a lot of in and like you I love this movie. Yeah, there are things about this movie that are some of the funniest Gags some of the funniest scenes I have ever seen
[00:12:33] But the fact that the failure was was laid on the lane may and that she paid the price for it It seems right when I think a lot of the problem should have been dolloped on on a warm baby
[00:12:48] Yep, and so I just that's that's what makes me a little crazy. I think that she made some some mistakes I think that that you know, but the Whole and I'm sure we're gonna get into this but the the whole
[00:13:07] Concept of the movie to me the first half an hour of it is One of my favorite movies of all time. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. That's exactly what I say people. Let's also just say Clint
[00:13:21] This might be the longest we have had an episode with a guest on the spreadsheet because it was New York Comic-Con 2019 I remember those days. Yeah, I think it was it's fully like 18 months ago that we like figured this out
[00:13:39] right it was like September or October 2019 I think September and I had done the adventure zone panel with you guys and then Travis threw like a little party afterwards and it was your first time meeting David That's right
[00:13:56] And you came up to us at the bar and said guys you've had all three of my sons on when am I gonna get to come on blank check?
[00:14:02] And we said here are the things we have planned for the next whatever whatever we had on the books at that point in time We thought we were gonna do a lane May April 2020 What happened two things happen One over too many times one
[00:14:16] We wanted to do this March Madness bracket where it was Razzie winners versus Oscar winners And a lane May was the only female who fit into either bracket who we had already So we had to take her way to Razzie for for this here for this movie, right?
[00:14:31] So we were like we have to put her in competition Otherwise it's gonna be even more of a sausage fest and already is and also there was this announcement or not even announcement This whisper maybe she's gonna make a new movie with Dakota Johnson
[00:14:41] We said maybe let's wait and see if she makes this new movie then a global pandemic happened We were like maybe let's not wait who knows when movies are gonna be there was a global pandemic Clint
[00:14:51] I'm sorry spoilers. I know I break this. I I forgot that you're behind. Yeah, I mean I live in Ohio so we don't know what's going on This movie absolutely I can remember when it came out and I am going to I am going to
[00:15:08] Own up to my own guilt. I have had a sense of guilt about this movie because I did not go see it in theaters Oh boy Now here's the thing I Was hooked and I was ready because I loved the Hope
[00:15:23] Crosby road pictures loved the road pictures after the Marx Brothers my favorite series of movies Were hoping Crosby rode to Morocco rode to Singapore rode to utopia all that absolutely loved him And then you know, I hit a red she's doing a road picture
[00:15:42] And I thought this is awesome and I am owning up the fact that I saw those reviews and I Caved I was it was a coward. I Was still cry
[00:15:59] Come on, I'm trying to be sincere here. No, no, this is working. This is what I mean it so you know, I was Fortunate in the fact that I you know because it wasn't it did not run on DVD for years and years and years and I mean
[00:16:13] They didn't reissue it was never released on DVD. It was barely on VHS. It was almost never played on television It was like so very Hs is where I saw it. Yeah, and so I've a nice and
[00:16:27] It was a revelation to me and it really the effect that it had on me at that point was You know saying movie reviewers stank. That's terrible. I tell me about it I have a let me tell you a quick anecdote a quick story
[00:16:45] All movie critics are scum because I'm ready to agree with you now, but I will tell you this we had a local guy This is when I was going to Marcia University and the The Wrath of Khan came out. Hmm great movie
[00:17:03] And so I you know, I had to go see that opening night and so There was a local reviewer Who hated it hated it hated it hated it and so I couldn't go opening night And but I was planning on going on that Saturday
[00:17:17] So I picked up the Saturday morning paper and You talk about spoilers and so I opened this guy's column and he says here's how much I hated Star Trek Wrath of Khan Spock dies what oh my god Dies was the second line of his freakin review Wow
[00:17:38] Was he was that why he was so mad at the movie? He was just like you can't do this I just is he just went on to talk about the bad performances and how hokey it was and the overacting and
[00:17:50] Obviously not getting it, but that's fine if a reviewer has an opinion That's fine, but that to me was criminally Irresponsible yes, that's mean you can't do that and I think fitting that that fits in with I mean how
[00:18:04] My reaction to when I finally saw Ishtar was man Why did why did people destroy this movie the way they did that? That was my same reaction and I'll say when we at that bar 18 months ago when society was still standing Before the before the fall
[00:18:24] Gave you a bunch of options of like art would any of these movies jump out to you You kind of like said like ooh ish char like when we said ish char you went like ish char
[00:18:35] And I went like Clint if you want to do ish char ish char is yours and you kind of looked like Both ways around the bar and then said like but I'm gonna defend it
[00:18:46] Like you you were already sort of like feeling guilty of just like are you guys looking for some of the shit on inchar? And I was like Clint your book. It's official if you're ready to send it
[00:18:57] Even if it takes us 18 months the episode is on the books sold I'll do that and I can remember when you asked me that and I can remember my reaction to it Yeah, and I will be brutally honest. Are you on the level? No
[00:19:10] As much as I know Elaine May and love Elaine May I Thought really a blank check. Did she get a blank check for? Heartbreak kid and you know and and so I think that was me trying to fit that into you know
[00:19:25] knowing about the premise of the of the show too, but she absolutely deserved it and And I hope she does make another movie because I would hate to think that ish char is the thing that you know Canceled her blank check. So it was undeniably
[00:19:40] Yeah, very long hold this movie came out when I was one year old And she's but I mean obviously she did She recovered her career with ease not with ease but with you know like she obviously she be she keeps writing
[00:19:54] She gets another Oscar nomination. She acts she gets a Tony like right there's lots of stuff that she does But she yeah, it's her. It's the last movie she made and it is it is too bad in a way
[00:20:07] You know as much as I like the movie let's let's lay out some of the Formation of this movie. She sort of lays low after Mikey and Nikki that kind of wipes her out
[00:20:19] And I think that was the first time she had the attitude of it's just not worth it Movie making is such a pain in the ass now worth it to direct right so she's you know still doing plays
[00:20:29] I think that's always been her sort of safe space of they don't fuck with my words here I can get stuff up the overhead is much lower. You know, I have less egos to deal with
[00:20:41] She's got Julie and Schlossberg who helps her with those and then she does a lot of rewrite work And sometimes it's credited and very often it's uncredited
[00:20:51] But one of the big ones was having can wait having him wait is the only one that is credited and she gets an Oscar nomination Of course, she's also in California sweet. I will point out. Yes
[00:21:01] Very funny in it's not a movie that I love but she is very funny and her and Walter Matthews Section of California sweet is the best section hard to agree But she's she's this sort of like whisperer of you know
[00:21:16] The elites of Hollywood who are still kind of keeping her employed because they have so much respect for her baby chief among them So baby also has her Do a pass on Reds He has her sit in the editing suite with her with him a lot during post-production
[00:21:34] He really credits her with helping that movie come together helping him figure out the structure of that movie and everything She also does a heavy uncredited rewrite on Tootsie. So Hoffman has this sort of sense of Owing her a favor, you know
[00:21:48] There are a lot of stories like that of movies that were kind of teetering on the edge could have Collapsed into madness where Elaine may comes in and fixes them at the last second
[00:21:58] What was the movie we were talking about where she came in and she was like this movie is good a Swingshift they wanted her swing shift. That's right to write
[00:22:06] The reshoots for swing shift and she had her famous line that is so good where she said if you Reshoot this movie in this way you will disrupt the entire ecosystem of the film, right? Which we just think about all the time
[00:22:18] She's someone and I think it speaks to what makes her good as a director where it's just like all of her movies have a very well-maintained Ecosystem they are very much in tune with themselves on one hand
[00:22:28] I understand people dislike ish char because it's just like if you're just not in on the first page It's never gonna win you over, right? Yeah, I think also How did apart from the fact that people were going in being told
[00:22:45] Boy is this thing a stinker like she has her famous line Everyone who hated ish char had actually seen it. I'd be a rich woman, right? Like, you know like a lot but I do think
[00:22:56] You can boil it down as like I have these like they're these dumb lounge singers who are you know They get caught up in like a CIA like you can you can try to explain what ish char is about
[00:23:07] But I do think the movie takes a long time to reveal itself in Like you so you're just sort of puzzled by it for so much of the running time. Yes, maybe I'm trying to I'm just trying to
[00:23:20] Understand why it was so noxious apart from we will talk about all the sort of like press stuff that yeah helped Yeah, but but another key detail is that at this point in time in particular Both Beatty and Hoffman work very infrequently especially baby
[00:23:37] This is an era where a major movie star cannot make a movie for seven years and still be considered One of the biggest movie stars, you know, the world is just waiting for them to return Beatty is the king of that the
[00:23:50] Biggest one of all right. Yes, right But but also this is the period where Hoffman takes his longest leave of absence He doesn't make anything between Tootsie and ish tar which is 82 to 87 He just does death of a salesman death of a salesman
[00:24:06] Which which I guess was pretty major and was on Broadway and all that but yes He it much like Pacino took a break like that in the 80s. I don't know if De Niro ever did I guess he's the sort of
[00:24:17] But yeah, James Kahn took that long break Hoffman Pacino Beatty is the king of it and that baby baby had that kind of almost Daniel Day Lewis thing where like Whether or not he was actually making in the movie. He felt like the engine of the movie
[00:24:32] Yeah, him being in a movie was just kind of a big deal I mean that's still true obviously a foreign baby did a movie today. It would be unusual He's only done to this century right like three if you count the Dick Tracy special You look at his
[00:24:45] Filmography right and he like, you know gets started in TV in the late 50s He starts making movies in the 60s He does a normal amount of movies in the 60s and 70s
[00:24:56] Even if perhaps he does less than other stars who are working four or five movies a year, right? Yeah, but then you go into the 80s and it's like Reds 1981 Ishtar 1987 he doesn't make a movie for six years after
[00:25:11] Making a film a giant blockbuster for which he wins best director and stars in it and everything Then after ishtar it's three years till Dick Tracy Bugsies the next year love affairs three years after that the weirdest one
[00:25:25] Four years to Bollworth three years until Town and Country down in country and then it's 15 years until rules don't apply Well, right, I mean he's he's essentially retired now
[00:25:36] But yes, but starting with the parallax view or whatever, you know, like that's where it's just like Warren Beatty is the auteur of his career of his stardom of his screen image ish tar is very much wrapped up in that and he's using that to get
[00:25:54] Elaine May a directing job and then He's meddling because he's a meddler the man's a meddler. He's a famed meddler He's he's an obsessive perfectionist meddler and an incredibly vain man who it never feels happy enough with any right happens to be
[00:26:12] Devastatingly handsome and charming like I mean unfortunately the man was dealt a full deck right but also deeply insecure and sort of All that all that and then you combine that with Hoffman who's also a perfectionist
[00:26:25] Yes, and Elaine May who was also a perfectionist didn't she shoot something like 120 hours? I mean I read one place where they they said only Kubrick You know
[00:26:38] Mikey mickey nicky is the most film that anyone has ever shot. Is that still true? It was certainly true at the time I think it still is And she did a three-hour cut on that right and then the studio Cut it down to an hour 20
[00:26:52] There's like a three hour cut and all these but this is the big factor I mean you're talking we were talking about this and Mikey and nicky like director
[00:26:59] Sorry movie stars who have the reputation of sort of also functioning like directors if they sign on to a film, right? Their their tendencies their star power their brand is so strong that they become a major voice in The whole shaping of a movie
[00:27:14] The big thing is that Beatty after reds goes to columbia and says Elaine May is a genius She has helped me out of a difficult situation twice and both of those movies became beloved, you know oscar winning hits um
[00:27:31] She deserves to get to make her blank check movie. He essentially says she's never been given the space to actually make a movie properly She always is surrounded by the wrong people. She has never produced or supporting her
[00:27:43] I want to produce her next movie. It's whatever she wants to do I will star in it. So I will lend my star power to it and the terms are she gets whatever she wants
[00:27:53] No questions asked. I mean that's literally what he says to the head of columbia who was a friend You know who's like I want to be in the war and Beatty business Whatever because the deal is anything Elaine may wants
[00:28:03] No questions asked at that point Warren Beatty has only directed reds reds and heaven can wait He's only produced four movies total. So aside from how controlling is on every movie he's in There's four movies. He's produced their Bonnie and Clyde shampoo heaven can wait and reds
[00:28:21] So in arguably his track record was perfect as a producer all four of those movies are nominated for best picture Make a ton of money shampoo wasn't but you know shampoo was a hit
[00:28:31] Shampoo wasn't nominated for best picture. No, but it got asked. You know, it was a big hit. It was still a it was a big movie Uh, but anyway He's like I know how to produce. I'm gonna keep this thing on rails
[00:28:44] So he goes out to dinner. Yes with her and the columbia guy And goes like what do you have and she essentially says I was watching those road to movies the other night They're funny someone to try to do a modern one of those
[00:28:55] But is that an idea and they were like, yeah, keep going keep going and she was like, well I don't know like Reagan intervening in the middle east and they were like sure keep going keep going
[00:29:03] Keep calling right when also I think she's the one thing she does pictures And it would be funny if if Warren if you were the bob hope if you were the the goof
[00:29:14] Rather than the suave guy like, you know, rather than the Crosby, right Hoffman was the suave ladies man Because that was the first thing forky said when I put this on she was like wait a second
[00:29:25] Beatty is the the doofus and look at he's like a foot and a half taller than like and I'm like, yeah That's the joke. That's what's funny What's most incredible about this movie? Do we not get ahead of it? But like
[00:29:37] There is a certain odd strain of sincerity and feeling she ingests into this whole thing Where I genuinely just buy Beatty being a doofus and Hoffman being a ladies man, even though it defies all logic
[00:29:51] Like I think I think Beatty is so good in this movie. He's so funny. He's so fucking funny in this That's why it works But it's also like despite the fact that this guy is so good-looking
[00:30:03] He he plays such a dope that you're like, well, yeah, no one would go out with him It's true. There's he just like it's that kind of chris furieve or whatever thing where like he manages to get tap into the sort of big Galoot
[00:30:16] Yeah, you know like that he does not really have but like, you know, he can use his body And the way they dress him and style him, but also it's just it's a very I think it's a very very funny performance Hoffman is the suave guy
[00:30:29] You know Hoffman played suave guys in that weird way But like in all the presidents man, like you know, he he's arrogant. He's an arrogant guy Lenny all the presidents You know, like so that's more believable. He's good. He's good too. Well, there's also just
[00:30:43] There's that famous story that when A pakula asked him to do all the presidents man. He said which guy was better looking in real life I want to play that one
[00:30:52] You know, I do think Hoffman had this chip on his shoulder of being the least attractive of that generation Of leading men, right? Yeah, yeah, I I do. Yeah, I mean and he was yeah, you would make fun of his big nose
[00:31:06] I guess right like that was sort of a bunch of jokes in the day. Yeah, right And I think he was I think he was a An acador. I yeah, I When when I teach acting class, I always bring up the story about
[00:31:19] Especially when we talk about sense memory and the story about Dustin Hoffman being in the hospital room when his dad's dying You know, it's the last moments of his dad And uh, his his brother looks at him and everybody's sad and Hoffman's looking around the room
[00:31:36] And he's staring at this and he's staring at that and he in his brother said dusty. What are you doing? He says no No, I want to remember this and what he was doing was taking in the smell of the antiseptic
[00:31:49] The coldness that you know, that's that's hardcore acting acting Um, and and I've always considered Beatty to be more of a A movie star. Yeah, you're in a natural Camera loves him's tight movie star. Yes, and it's just so you've got to you got to admit that may
[00:32:09] you know Bulk to trend by having them switch things but are either one of you fans of Elaine May and Mike Nichols Big time work. Okay. Yeah. So yeah, the whole thing was awkwardness Yeah, everything was based on discomfort
[00:32:28] I I can remember reading a story and and this was years and years and years ago But there was a might have been in the New Yorker and they were reviewing uh Nicholson may And the show that they did for nine ten months on on Broadway
[00:32:45] And how at the end of the first act they do this Prandello sketch that it just left audiences Mystified and went right to a blackout, but they achieved their purpose because it was so awkward And so
[00:33:02] Discomforting. I think that plays a lot into what she thinks is really funny because there aren't joke jokes In this movie there are funny lines The only joke joke that I even wrote down Was the the thing with the buzzards
[00:33:19] Whether being surrounded by buzzards even though they're still alive and he says you mean they're here on speck That that you know But it almost stood out in the fact that oh, no, you're right. Here's a gag everybody
[00:33:33] The the scene on the on the ledge of the building Is so I mean Elaine May could have played that mom part. That was the yes that was the kind of stuff in in the the the
[00:33:45] Classic bit they did where the where mic nicole's called his mom. Yes, the where he's the rocket scientist Right where he's the rocket scientist and he says oh, I feel awful and she said oh darling if I could believe that I'd be the happiest woman on the planet
[00:34:00] There's not a joke Yeah in there. Yeah, but there's brilliant observation In there Well, also, I mean one of the funniest lines of the entire movie to me is when they're complaining At the they're stuck in the middle of the the desert and the you know
[00:34:16] Because of this and this and that and our camel is lying down and he goes well, you know, I mean I kind of respect them for that Yeah
[00:34:26] I think this is you are getting at something that again probably baffled audiences right they may have expected a mad cap You know with Elaine May attached As you're saying like that's not really her style
[00:34:38] Right like where are the where's the fizzy dialogue where what what's all this mumbling and crosstalk and like Weird kind of tangents like I don't get it. I thought this was a a high stakes high concept comedy Well, here's another thing
[00:34:54] It's like she was part of this legendary comedy duo You know, they played a lot of characters But very often their dynamic was the same a lane may often played the high status characters
[00:35:03] And Nichols and May sketches as an audience you very quickly understood how to watch them and how to or how to listen to them How to get on their rhythms hope and Crosby those movies were based around what those guys public personas already were
[00:35:15] They were very defined when they sold Hey, it's hope and Crosby on the road to blank The audience could do the math and then when they showed up in the theater that movie delivered exactly what they wanted to see in their head You are
[00:35:29] Exactly right and one of the differences was and I admired her for doing this And I wonder I I haven't seen the director's cut. So I don't know I realize it's shorter. Well, let's talk about a couple minutes shorter
[00:35:41] It's two minutes shorter and I have seen no account of what the difference is I really don't know what the difference is what I've read said that there is very little difference Yeah, yeah, it's it's the only version that's available to watch now
[00:35:55] I also don't think it's an actual director's cut. I think it's branded as a director's cut Yeah, but I don't know if Elaine may like was like I've been sitting on my cut for years
[00:36:05] It's more that they finally like mastered the movie for blue, you know, like they got it all spruced up and yeah Maybe she like trimmed, you know, but like it's not like a fucking blade right as we said It was out of circulation for like 20 years
[00:36:19] The vhs had long been out of print. It was never released on dvd. It was rarely shown on tv Richard brody wrote an article in the new yorker on the event of the movie is being aired this thursday at 4am
[00:36:31] It's the first time it will have been on tv in three years and that was seen as a historic moment Well, the road pictures The the big differences especially in storytelling at the road picture started Where being and bob whoever whatever characters they were playing
[00:36:50] Had history together. Yes. Yeah, we're in the middle of their relationship This movie makes the choice to start and then flash back To how they came together which She makes it work
[00:37:04] In the fact that they're sitting at the bar and you know, said i'm a joe and they're they're flashing back to how it happened um But that emphasizes the big difference in the fact that you're right griffin
[00:37:18] Bing and bob were always playing bing and bob and you know, you know who they were separately You know who they were together and this movie is not only giving you a new comedy team
[00:37:26] You don't know but the comedy team is made up of two incredibly self serious and vain Stars oscar winning right movie stars who are playing against type right massive That proceed them and are also playing the opposite of what they actually are
[00:37:42] Which I think is an immediate moment of like pushback from audiences and also neither of whom are singers Where are the four comedians? They're both piano players. Yes, right. Yes, they're both piano players But but those scenes got almighty the scene that you were quoting
[00:38:00] Where the and and then that trope that that thread continues through the movie because When they get in the worst trouble when they get in the most danger when they get they start making a song up
[00:38:11] Whenever they riff a song against me any single time. Oh, that's good repeat that. What did you just say? The slowest part of the movie They don't do it. Yes. There's like a half an hour. Yeah with all the intrigue and
[00:38:29] And that's where it kind of bogged down because I think and and again I'm You know criticizing although I've already established what I love about this movie You've got this whole section in the middle where they they hand the storytelling off to
[00:38:45] Charles groden and to Isabella johnny and and you don't have those Those scenes where they start riffing a song and I don't know how they kept from cracking each other up. Can we talk about the songs for a minute?
[00:39:00] Well, I want to get to it in a second because this is the last Bit of business I want to set up and then we could get into those first Then there's two bits of business I want to do
[00:39:08] Do your two bits give me your two bits and I'll give you one bit Okay, there's two things one I forgot that there is one piece of ratatat dialogue that I do love Which is when the cians are talking to like the kgb here. I recognize them
[00:39:21] The one stress is texans. No, the one stress is arabs The one stress is texans or arabs and the guys from turkish intelligence are here Oh, the ones in the hawaiian shirts. No, the vermina shorts the hawaiian shirts guys are tourists
[00:39:32] That's so fucking funny to put some punctuation on that david That they go through all these they said what about the guys in the hawaiian shirts? Is there they're they're tourists the people that pull guns on them are the guys from the hawaiian shirts
[00:39:45] Yeah, right. Right. Their appraisal is also wrong The other thing is uh Richard brody you mentioned he wrote that great account of her presenting ishtar at the jakea burn center up in pleasantville
[00:39:58] And I just want this quote that he transcribed from her where someone asked like do you like writing best acting best or directing best I just have to read her line. It's so good
[00:40:08] Here's elaine may they're really different parts of the brain writing is close to acting in directing you control Acting you can't control how good you are and you can't control how good you are when you write You can try to be good directing you can't really control either
[00:40:23] But you can think about it. That's her take on what do you prefer the most? She's essentially like Yeah, you really have no control in any of the but directing you're supposedly in control
[00:40:33] That that's how she feels about the creative process and and she's a she's a terrific Actress she's great at everything she has ever done and but but here's my point they get over there and they start shooting
[00:40:47] It seems to me that that section that we all love so much that first 20 minutes 30 minutes it's just Has such an elaine may feel to it. Mm-hmm. And then when it goes to the desert, that's where it feels like she Loses control. Okay. So let me the picture
[00:41:05] Let me give you some bits of business here clank because I did some digging I I made a little more sense of a lot of this sort of timeline development production stuff on this movie so
[00:41:14] The original pitch is as I was saying to baity and the head of columbia over dinner She starts spitballing stuff. She goes it would be baity. He's the dope The other guys a womanizer will cast someone against type maybe it's hoffman, right
[00:41:29] But baity is on board columbia. They go like I don't know if this is a movie but also Warren baity doesn't miss Right Let's see if he can get a second big person on board
[00:41:40] They go to hoffman after she goes away. They give her some money to write the script She writes it they bring it to hoffman. They do a table read with groden as well
[00:41:49] And hoffman's got his like big mentor who's a playwright? I forget the name of but who was like his consultant on everything You know the name of client, right? Schlist schlister schlite. It's something like that. Yes um Murray Schiskal yes schl. Yeah his guru more or less
[00:42:11] Yeah, right and there's so many stories of hoffman considering making a movie and then coming in with schiskel And having so many notes that eventually people threw their hands up
[00:42:20] Or movies that hoffman did end up making four different directors go through it because no one wanted to put up with him I remember uh, uh when we were shooting draft day the the screenwriters telling me that Dustin hoffman really wanted to play the um
[00:42:36] franklin jell-a role right the the owner right the owner of the team And iven rightman's response is life is too short to work with dust and hoffman Which is pretty incredible because most of iven rightman's career was based on him being able to wrangle incredibly difficult movie stars
[00:42:51] Right your your bill murray's right and he did a redford movie. He did like three bill murray's He did a fucking cosner movie and he was just like Dustin hoffman absolutely and hoffman like wanted to do it
[00:43:03] And he wouldn't but the rightman is probably long enough in the biz to know there's a difference between him wanting to do it And him being ready to do what the script is and like show up on the right like it's like no
[00:43:14] There's gonna be a whole thing that follows that right um, so they bring it to hoffman and hoffman comes back after they do the table read with his uh uh schiskal or whatever his name is and um Says here's my thought. I think the first
[00:43:31] 25 pages of them in new york are great. I think the movie should never leave new york That's the real thing you have here. I know you conceived this as a road to rift
[00:43:42] But I think these characters that you've landed on this dynamic this sort of exploration of people who have everything but talent You know these sort of marginal figures on the sidelines of the entertainment industry who no one ever considers and if they do it's in such a
[00:43:55] Mocking way doing it with such compassion This is the movie here and elaine may pushes back And I think it's a little bit just because it's like we're in too deep now
[00:44:03] Like well, the whole thing we sold was the road to thing and I I'm interested in America Interventionist politics and I want to do all this stuff and they push back a bunch and eventually baby says look
[00:44:15] I have her back whatever she wants to do if she wants the movie to take place in ishtar It's taking place in ishtar and they assume that hoffman's gonna walk and he signs on instead
[00:44:25] And his playwright friend asked why and he said look, I just don't know at this point I can't go another five years without making a movie No, right. I I can't try to control this situation
[00:44:35] I'm gonna sign on because it's good people in a halt vault and hope that it works He has a great quote that he gave to what uh, jeremy, uh, mr. Beaks, you know like where he's like It has a statement to make I love that movie
[00:44:47] It's far better to spend life being second rate and something you're passionate about than to spend life being first Life being first rate something you're not passionate about like he just loves as you're saying like he loves these guys He loves the concept of these no talent guys
[00:45:02] Trying their hardest to be the next simon and garfunkel So right that that that backs that up interviews when people shit on it He always goes like look it's a perfect movie
[00:45:10] But I'm really I have no regrets about making it and I would argue that the first 30 minutes of ishtar stack up against any American comedy ever And I agree right yeah, I agree
[00:45:21] But so so it's one of the rare cases where especially in his leading man days hoffman just kind of like Throws his hands up and goes like let's see how this goes the three of them get 12 million dollars combined which
[00:45:33] In today's dollars would be over 30 million dollars before any other costs of the movie are put down It's a lot of money columbia has the exact same Uh, it's sort of trepidations that hoffman did about the story
[00:45:47] And especially how difficult and expensive it was going to be to shoot But the head of columbia at that time despite uh, you know on top of being uh, you know
[00:45:55] If you don't like he owed it to baby is also just like i'm gonna look like a fool If I say no to this someone else is going to pick it up because it's baby and hoffman
[00:46:03] And that's huge and I'll look even dumber if the movie ends up being a hit I guess I should just take the risk Coca-Cola owns columbia at this point in time They have some big deal with hbo
[00:46:14] Where like their movies the financing for the movies is pretty much pre sold by the hbo deal Right, so columbia offers the three of them 12 million dollars combined I think it's like five for baby five for hoffman two for elaine may and as the movie starts
[00:46:30] Pre-production and they can see it's going to get big and expensive You know they have a hard time finding the right location to shoot and all this shit They offer to defer their salary and put it into back end points and columbia and coca-cola more importantly says no
[00:46:45] As like a status thing No, we're a big studio where coca-cola. We own a movie studio now, right? We're not skimping we insist on paying you too much money
[00:46:54] It's so wild that these fucking companies buy movie studios. They're like, so what do you guys do here? You make movies? We we make soda. Is that any is that similar to making movies?
[00:47:05] We probably will figure it out right? It's just the same with the fucking at&t guys coming to warner brothers And they're just like have you guys seen netflix? You should do that You should do one of those you have a netflix like get that going okay?
[00:47:16] All right, I'll be over here call me on the phone. I invented the phone much like coca-cola I expect that in two years at&t will go. This is so not worth it. Yeah 100% they'll be like, uh, can we offload the fucking warner media?
[00:47:27] What is that? Yeah, no definitely But this this is the last thing I want to say before we get into Uh, the actual body the movie itself Uh, especially talking about those first that first new york chunk Um, the way they structured the chute clint
[00:47:42] Which I think plays into what we're talking about is that they shot all the ishtar stuff first It was supposed to be eight weeks in morocco shooting the ishtar Then they go to new york and shoot all of that stuff and focus on the songs and everything else
[00:47:56] Um, and instead of course the ishtar portion of the chute ballooned out of control Uh, elaine may who is incredibly neurotic was terrified of the sun So I think a big part of her not being hands-on directing actors was by all accounts
[00:48:09] She wrapped herself from like head to toe in gauze and wore a giant hat and sunglasses They always said she looked like a stormtrooper on set and had a horrible toothache and wouldn't go see a dentist Yes
[00:48:21] Was like hiding in a tent the whole time far away from them But the other part of it is so much of her process. I think is just like this Kubrick, you know fincher ask just do a hundred takes. I'll know it when I see it
[00:48:33] I don't want to tell you what to do. I want you to keep doing until I see the thing I want to see and I think like especially baby, but you know, they're just baffled
[00:48:42] They're just like, what are you talking about? Just give me some direction over here. I've done, you know I'm gonna find my fucking movie star like This is where the like well, she's not doing anything
[00:48:51] I'm in air quotes is coming from I feel like yeah because baby's saying like she doesn't know how to direct Now, I mean, I don't know what to do I think performance wise
[00:49:00] I always have heard that baby is a guy who obsessively demands 100 takes for every single shot he's in Well, sure All these movies take fucking forever to make yeah, right? I think his frustration came from
[00:49:12] I don't know if Elaine is directing this properly. I think Hoffman wanted more hand holding as an actor Um, but the New York stuff was shot last Uh, that's you know what that blows my mind, right? Because right you'd think that was the good early days
[00:49:27] Yeah, because the reason it blows my mind is because if they were going to disassociate and if they were going to say Let just let's just You know go through the motions and get this over with
[00:49:37] It would have happened, you know when they were shooting in the desert and then Because the first 20 minutes 30 minutes god, they're so into it and they're so on it Oh that that really does amaze me. That's that amazing It's it's fascinating in terms of energy
[00:49:53] But let's get into this because this is I think so often about if I ever were to direct a movie in my life Uh, especially if it was a comedy but not only if it was a comedy I think so much about
[00:50:05] The structure of this film and the structure of the first 30 minutes as its own mini movie almost And what it accomplishes and how it accomplish it in such an unconventional way
[00:50:16] The opening of the movie is hearing them riffing the song lyrics over just black titles, right? Yep. It's so funny So you're getting this tone setting. It's like listening to a nickels and may album You're just getting into the rhythms of the pattern, right and the comedy and
[00:50:33] You know as you were saying clint like, uh I don't think it's coincidental that all of elaine may's movies are about duos and they're about duos with incredibly unhealthy Relationships and the awkwardnesses that existed between them, you know
[00:50:47] It's two couples in the first two movies and two male friendships in the last two movies But it's always about her mind comes back to sort of I think This same genesis that created the nickels and may sketches, right?
[00:50:59] The dynamics of two people driving each other crazy who also can't get away from each other um And you just set that up with that opening and then you have like six Lightning fast rocket sled minutes where you see them writing you see them performing You see them
[00:51:17] Outside the tower records complaining about the fact that they could be as big as simon and garfunkel The dangerous business is as good as bridge over troubled water And all of it quick quick cuts very short scenes. Yes, boom snippet boom snippet. Yeah good
[00:51:31] Oh now we're over here now we're over there like like sentence fragments A thing I feel like people don't even attempt to do in movies that much I mean we talked about a little bit recently Castaway sort of does a similar thing where you're just getting these little
[00:51:44] Glimpses fragments and knowing that it's spanning much longer time and ladybird did it well recently But this is just like you're getting these snippets The way three minutes in the film is already canonizing dangerous business as this important work, right?
[00:52:00] Do you not understand we could be dangerous business is as good as any of those songs So then they do the show they that's the single Right They call up jack weston right they cold call this so fun. Oh god. So fucking good in this movie
[00:52:15] Derek on this obviously he's in a new leaf. He's he's a long time a lane may collaborator. Yes But just like here he is pouring alcohol into his coffee, right his hands shaking trying to take notes
[00:52:26] He can't distinguish between what the name of the band is and the name of location is and all that sort of stuff And then he goes there sees their show kind of doesn't give a shit and says the only place
[00:52:37] I could get you booked in is like northern africa, right? Well, no wait, there's one other thing here. I for can't remember what it is Honduras oh Honduras Honduras more northern africa right and they say northern africa safer that all happens
[00:52:49] But I can only give you the airfare from the canary islands right right you have to get yourself the rest of the way out right That all happens in six minutes of the movie, right? So that's a really efficient six minutes of the movie
[00:53:02] Then they walk into the bar and the flashback starts six minutes In they walk in the bar. He goes. I need some time alone to think They're having this depression moment of is it not going to happen for us if this is the best deal we can get
[00:53:16] Is it not going to happen that for us? You already feel like you know these guys really well, right? So they walk into this bar. Beatty follows him in because he's such a dope. He he fundamentally
[00:53:26] Doesn't know how to let his friend be alone. Yeah, I want to be alone Right. Yeah. Well, I'm don't it's the only bar that's open right so funny when he's just standing there
[00:53:35] He's he bats will correct me up. Go on. Sorry. So then you do the Wayne's world Flashback to how they met and now you have like 15 minutes of table setting of just
[00:53:46] We're going to make you feel like you have lived an entire lifetime with these guys and it's I will say right I love this. This is probably the first point at which audiences were like. I thought we were going to Morocco What's happening here?
[00:53:58] Which I will say in a bad way. No seeing this movie at the 92nd street Why knowing so little about it other than the poster and that it was always called a disaster When I'm watching the film at this point, I go
[00:54:11] Was I getting this confused with another movie? Is this not about them going to the middle? It just feels like there's no way this movie ends up with them in some Like a espionage caper
[00:54:22] Um, but yes in terms of how it was sold. This is incredibly confusing audiences. Why is it taking so long to get to the point? But I think what it does is unlike a lot of fish out of water movies
[00:54:32] It really makes you feel like you've seen an entire movie's worth of These guys normal life before you put them out of water Whereas a lot of movies. It's like you're already caught up in the plot mecanations
[00:54:46] When you're establishing the characters, you're so aware of the fact that the status quo is going to get disrupted This movie lulls you into a sort of false movie that it's not actually going to be Even if that is probably the movie it should be
[00:54:58] But you go into this extended sequence and what is essentially like a love story, right? This this platonic love story between these two men these two guys who don't understand that they don't have it Right. They have everything else. They have the work ethic. They have the determination
[00:55:14] They even have a wife and a girlfriend. Yeah, the brilliant carol kane and tess harper carol kane So funny you have two academy award nominated actresses playing. They're completely ignored partners Right without a joke between them. Yeah, there's not a joke between them and and when it's establishing
[00:55:33] Him as an ice cream man Who's making up songs and is thinking so hard about song lyrics that he completely blows by these kids wanting to buy ice cream um And then i i know we're we're summarizing but i've got to point this out because My hardest laugh
[00:55:54] in the entire movie and this is the god honest truth is uh makin has made up the song for the the couple that had been coming to the restaurant for 60 years and the song lyric says i'm leaving some love in my will
[00:56:12] I swear to god if i'd been drinking milk it would have shot out my nose. I would have done a danie thomas Uncle tanus is coming that to me was and that is so
[00:56:23] Brilliant, it's it's a great gag and i love i absolutely loved that that whole sequence of him Him playing the piano and you know even their first couple of gigs Highlights a threat. It's the musical numbers in this in this movie
[00:56:43] Are brilliant are incredible. I i don't mean good But they are they are Not so bad. They're not good and they're not so good that they're not bad and it's paul williams It's paul williams. We should mention it's paul williams who
[00:56:59] Is you know a pop star in his own right is a very successful songwriter for others at this point has become also a bit of a You know a public figure is acting in things Is is doing battle of the network stars or whatever
[00:57:15] But has created has created a persona. Yes for himself And also is the main songwriter for the muppets which has a very similar attitude of these odd balls trying their hardest to put on a show and
[00:57:28] That was another big cost for this movie where every song you hear in this film and you almost always Only hear a line or two. He wrote the entire song right and baity and And they made them learn the entire song play the entire song. Yes
[00:57:43] I mean they shut down production for weeks so that they could learn the songs One of the things that I have always said about this movie and my sons will blast me when they hear this Uh because I I've been assured they they listen um
[00:57:59] This would make the funniest damn Broadway musical. Yes that ever was because The songs wouldn't take themselves too seriously as long as you never had A song that was a serious love song or a you know, if you just played those little snippets
[00:58:20] The movie is at its most brilliant when they're performing I mean there's there's the one wardrobe of love where I think the lyric is I said honey
[00:58:28] Don't you know there's a wardrobe of love in your eyes? I said, why don't you come inside and see if there's something your size And it's Hoffman playing the piano and baity out of focus just eating an apple and tossing off lyrics
[00:58:41] And Hoffman just turns him he goes man when you're on you're on They're very supportive of each other this movie is all about partnership and
[00:58:53] This is the healthiest relationship she's ever depicted and you get to that that sequence. I mean it's right. It's like test harper and uh Okay, no, I'm sorry It's it's harper and baity at that restaurant
[00:59:06] And he's complaining about the fact that he was fired as the ice cream truck driver Right because he failed to notice that kids wanted to buy ice cream. He was too busy singing his rum raisin song
[00:59:17] Then Hoffman is singing this song for this old couple who he promised if you come back for your anniversary I'll write you this song that ends up being about their death, right and their faces Right. Oh, it's such a good
[00:59:28] Elaine may like the camera just slowly pans across the table and you know what everyone's reaction is going to be And you're just waiting to see what's the next face, you know What are the different variations of surprise and fright and what have you?
[00:59:42] um, but then Hoffman goes into this fight With carol camber he refuses to marry her Because he's so caught up in his career, right? Yeah And then the waiter passes him the note from baity saying i'm also a songwriter
[00:59:56] I love your song and Hoffman just lights up. He knows nothing about this guy He doesn't know this guy's credentials, right? And it's like the prettiest girl in high school just asked him out and he sees baity
[01:00:07] Waving to him from the back of the room like a big gloof and then it just cuts to them The place is closed all the the tables are turned over And we have another half hour. Can we have just another oh, that's good. That's good. It's a do
[01:00:21] Give me one half hour like the last hour Yeah, it does power. Oh god and and it's just kane and harper sitting at the table just watching Like probably six drinks in and you're like these women are done. They're done
[01:00:35] It's it's they're never gonna get as much love from these guys as these guys have for each other Uh because they they indulge each other's dreams And then just all this songwriting is so fucking good
[01:00:47] Leading to harper dumping baity and Hoffman having to give him the the talk of encouragement That great scene of them walking down the street. Man, all these scenes are like 30 seconds long They all feel like three panel comic strips, right? Like you're just getting these little
[01:01:02] Glimpses but they both have to talk each other through breakups There's the scene where they go to the bar And baity is like well, it's easy for you to pick up a girl, you know You walk in you're you got the looks, you know, you got the hawk
[01:01:14] Man, he's the hawk You know, you got you got that face, you know real mean looking but with character Bar and baity just with like a fucking mount olympus ass chin like the most beautiful marble cut face And he's like crystal blue eyes
[01:01:30] But then just that scene where where Hoffman is like Improvising a song for this random woman at a bar and baity's just standing behind them with her friend And he just doesn't know how to say anything
[01:01:41] They're just staring at each other uncomfortably and then you know, he's saying like it doesn't matter She never understood you it doesn't matter and then of course when carol kane dumps hoffman He's suicidal. He goes off on the ledge and that scene is so sweet
[01:01:55] Uh, I didn't I didn't think I could get here in time. That's why I called the cops, you know And when that's exactly what he wanted him to do we wanted him to call the cops, you know Well, he didn't even go out on the ledge
[01:02:07] Like he was like You know in his sitting in his window saying he's on the ledge like all of that is so like I don't know. There's a lot of like truth in the ego of the character
[01:02:19] He doesn't go out into the ledge until the cops show up to talk him off the ledge until then he's got a pillow waiting resting against The windowsill and he carries the pillow out with him on the ledge
[01:02:31] And then his parents show up and the parents are so telling the rabbi Don't forget the rabbi of course the rabbi But his parents show up in like fur, you know And like the finest wears and so clear because you've already had the scene
[01:02:44] Where baby's talking after his test harper break up about how like, you know, the plant shut down They lost all their jobs in the midwest So they moved to new york because he wanted to be a songwriter that he grew up from a much more modest
[01:02:57] Uh, you know family Where no one believed in him and hoffman has probably been indulged and supported beyond belief his entire life You know that ledge scene is so much a may and nickels. Yes sketch There's the there's the line where he's
[01:03:12] Where he's trying to talk hoffman in off the ledge and he says it's damn It takes a lot of nerve to have nothing at your age. It's So So many great backhanded compliments like that throughout the movie that is so perfectly inept
[01:03:29] I don't mean to be the buzzkill because I love this. I'm more trying to understand why this thing Was so reviled are people mad maybe that like Beatty is playing a dope where they're like don't try and fool us warren Like we know you're fucking warren baby
[01:03:44] Like is that part of it that people are just like you can't smuggle this past us you trying to sort of de glam Like i'm just trying to understand I think it is when people walked in maybe with that that but I think
[01:03:57] It doesn't take long for the two of them to win you over I agree. I agree. Yeah that they really are Lyle and Lyle and chuck I
[01:04:06] I can remember the first time I saw it. I went wait. Why did they make the choice of him being the schmuck? I think there is some resistance there, but I think that goes away
[01:04:16] I I know I find it completely disarming, but I think it probably also had to do with the Whirlwind of press leading up to it and how much this was framed as ego indulgence out of control
[01:04:27] But is it also just that it's been five years since I'm sorry six years since a baby movie and same You know Hoffman it's been a while too, but baby especially the last time he did reds
[01:04:38] He made he's so fucking hot in that movie. He went like is it just that where they're like excuse me We've been waiting on a movie where you're sexy and cool
[01:04:47] This is not what the doctor ordered like I'm just trying to understand. I'll say I think that's a part of it I do also think and perhaps it's it's washed away a little bit
[01:04:56] But I do think there's a bit of resentment with very serious actors do comedy, you know Yeah, that's right. That's what I'm sort of I guess trying to drill down at is like right
[01:05:07] Is it just that kind of chip on shoulder like stay in your lane, baby? I think that's right if I wanted a comedy Yeah, I'd call You know eddie murphy, whoever the big star is right the pauline k-o review
[01:05:18] It's like vicious and she says like I don't understand why this isn't steve martin and bill murray You can imagine steve martin and bill murray doing this in every scene and it would actually be funny But what's funny about it movie with them then pauline right?
[01:05:30] I think that's part of the magic of this movie is getting two guys who aren't By their very nature comedians and like baby had done heaven can wait but heaven can wait It's like a light comedy that's about him being a charming guy, you know
[01:05:43] It's about him being a hot dufus, but he's hot. Yeah, but for most of it. He's Not perceived by people. He's in the body, you know, so I think he's great. You know, I think he's very funny He's great in that so funny in that
[01:05:57] I I think the framing of it of the movie not pretending that he isn't worn baity the comedy coming out of He can't be worn baity versus this movie where it's like this guy can't get laid
[01:06:08] I think was just a bridge too far for people a certain degree I think it's we we've talked about the thing where like for so long every time maryl streve tried to make a comedy
[01:06:17] The critics all said like maryl can't do comedy stop trying to do comedy you shall not pass Do not even try you can't do everything. Yes. Yeah, definitely that I mean it's it's telling that
[01:06:27] He doesn't do another comedy for 11 years. His next comedy is bulworth, which is a A banana's movie and performance, but like after this he's like fine. I'll do dick tracy I'll just be literally a guy whose jaw is drawn with a set square who shoots bad guys
[01:06:45] Who has no internal care like he'll just that you want me to be like a cartoon handsome man That's what I'll do and then he does bugsy which is a terrible movie
[01:06:55] But again, you know, it was a big prestige. He like I'm playing this serious guy this major figure You know, it's I'm tortured. I'm I'm handsome. I'm a gangster That movie stinks. He meets his wife and then does a movie about how much he loves his wife
[01:07:10] that thing and and Am I wrong in thinking that hoffman's direct movie following this is rain man? Uh, that's a good question. That sounds right. That sounds plausible, right rain man's right around there. Let's
[01:07:23] That he just immediately goes to whatever one wants to see him do which is just like hoffman Too hard to something right next year, right? So it's just like I think people didn't like them doing this and I think the buy-in on it where it's not
[01:07:37] Like I disagree with the Pauline kale thing of oh, it's funnier if it's Murray and martin. No Murray and martin means it's less work You walk into the movie much like hope and cross be already having their comedic personas
[01:07:51] Which have been honed for decades in your back pocket This movie is asking you to actually engage with them as as real people Which is part of the gambit that you actually need to care about these people And feel stakes when they're talking each other off a ledge
[01:08:05] Which can only be done if they're built as characters and not just extensions of comedic personas And I also think the fact that it's too very self serious vain dramatic actors
[01:08:18] Amuse it with a kind of weight and a seriousness every time they talk about their music and their craft You know, which is the main thing that they latch on to in this movie is this
[01:08:28] You know the weird kind of poetry of people who have everything but talent But they have the gift of not knowing that they're never going to be good. I was I've been reading John Cleese's book on creativity. Justin got up for me. It's it's it's
[01:08:44] It's not a very creatively titled book. It's just called creativity, but there's a point in there where it says You know Creativity is not the same as the urge to create You know that sure people may have the urge to create But they you know
[01:09:02] Heaven for fend that you ever say that somebody doesn't have A skill at this or a skill at that you you know, you you can't say that But the thing that gets me about these guys is
[01:09:15] They are successful on a certain level and can't live with it when they do their performance In marrakesh. They at the the shea casablanca They kill they real people love what they're doing the covers
[01:09:29] They're doing their songs and they're doing their headbands and they're they're they are really into it And yet they they get this standard ovation this this I don't know if he's a shake or a sultan or a whatever he is
[01:09:43] Wants to book him to come entertain at his house and they say We're a hit they succeed on that level, but they want more they Right. They want to be in the window at tower records. Yeah, the simon and garfunkel thing runs all
[01:09:59] Simon and garfunkels should have gotten a credit They get mentioned so many times in this to the point where I thought I wonder what this movie would have been If they had hired Simon and garfunkel to play these these two characters that would be funny
[01:10:13] That's the only that's the only counter and it's not even a counter to what you were saying griffin but whereas I think I think the thing that sunk this movie was The press I think that that was what doomed it and i'm speaking from personal experience
[01:10:30] I've already owned up to the fact that I let it, you know talk me out of it And and every one of those things in the press was the budget the budgets out of control and It a big whatever a third 40 percent of that budget went to
[01:10:48] pay Hoffman and baity and Not that that was so unusual having two big superstars in it maybe was yeah. Yeah, but if that is what doomed the movie What if they had made it with Matthew Broderick and Bruce Willis or you know, you know, sure
[01:11:06] Maybe it would have been Given a little bit more slack if it hadn't been a 55 million dollar movie if it had been a 25 million dollar movie. Yes But that wouldn't have necessarily made it a better picture
[01:11:21] Let's also say the deal structure and the salaries are pretty similar if you map it onto modern numbers as once upon a time in hollywood Where it's like here is Tarantino and two of the biggest stars in the same movie
[01:11:34] You're gonna have to pay for you're gonna have to give them creative freedom But no one questions that because the movie worked right if it doesn't work people say How dare you pay Hoffman and baity to be in the same right? That's right. That's fair
[01:11:45] That's fair. I will I mean there's the other context that when they get the deal Guy mcgill Wayne is in charge of columbia and he was Warren baity's publicist like in the old
[01:11:54] Yes, so he is like their pal and he's like, yeah, okay sure give him whatever they want Right, you know like and then while the movie's getting made he gets fired And david putnam is installed and david putnam is like this thing
[01:12:10] Let's let's look back around to this. Okay, because the putnam thing has to be its own sort of a chapter. Yeah, okay I think we should go to ishtar because you get the the windows only talks them off the ledge
[01:12:21] It cuts back to the bar. They're out of the flashback. Let's do it Let's go to ishtar and at minute 25 the movie essentially starts for the second time Right. It's the sequence that most movies would have used as they're cold open or this could be five minutes
[01:12:36] Like after jack weston is like well there's this and then it's like, okay cut to this Yeah Really really quickly. I just want to say Because I don't think we get as much of it in the like the next section of the movie
[01:12:50] The fashion the 80s fashion like we've said the headbands, but like the suit jackets Like it is amazing. Everyone is dressed in this new york section to at it's so perfect I was like pausing and taking like pictures with my phone of like looks
[01:13:11] Because I was straight up like this is fucking amazing and I just wanted to throw that in there I didn't want to derail the bands at the song mark that's the what the uh screaming hunkers and the swing And the teachers was teacher's daughter
[01:13:28] Those they're dressed it is it's hysterically funny That's also such a good cut when you have like montage all these full bands and then it's just Roger's and Clark with a bongo drum on a stand, you know
[01:13:43] Um, uh, uh, Beatty's uh, uh ear muffs with the furry like he's got that like furry fedora Yeah It's one of the best looks when they're outside in the winter But yes, then you do this hard cut to ishtar right
[01:13:59] Which is like it feels like the opening of Raiders of the Lost Ark or something suddenly It's an entirely different movie And I feel like a lot of comedies that are fish out of water start with the serious thing like this
[01:14:12] Then they go like but where were those two men cut from come from and then you do the comedic cut to here are two goofices Yeah, or another one was we're never going to ishtar right cutting they're getting off the plane
[01:14:25] I'm not fine to a hundred bucks. There's no way yes after that you could do that right This is like 20 minutes of presenting two pathetic guys to you making you care for them and then saying now never mind They're gonna go
[01:14:38] Get caught up in an international espionage case But now it's like dead serious sweeping score these beautiful vistas of the desert and there's the map That could help liberate the people of it. Yeah, it's right
[01:14:52] It is maybe one too many things to keep track of you know between the the map and the fbi the ciam You know what I mean? Like I don't know I think the convolutedness is the point that's part of the joke
[01:15:05] But I maybe that's kind of you know, you do you do kind of just have to be like, I don't know who cares You know like rather than trying to track. Yeah The I mean
[01:15:15] I feel like the groden character is where they most successfully set the audience expectations for this because he's sort of like jk simmons and bern after reading comparison I was gonna make that's point right the point is I don't understand any of this
[01:15:29] The ending of this movie bern after reading is the same ending where he's like explaining it on the guy's like what and he's like Look, it doesn't matter. Anyway, we have to I don't close the block Yeah, and has become a big supporter That's that's the single
[01:15:48] Right, but now this movie is like whereas before the movie has been moving so fast But with like backstory and character development movements. Yes now it does slow down It's slowing down, but it's also loading us with a lot of plot information You know
[01:16:03] They get to the airport. They get their passport stamped immediately isabella johnny's there Pulls up her shirt to reveal that she's a woman A bit that I never fully get that they're all like this is obviously a teenage boy. I'm like, is it obviously
[01:16:19] A teenage boy. It kind of looks like a lady to me Yeah, kind of looks like an international superstar isabella johnny She's like dating warren baity at the time. That's another thing that'll hurt you in the press obviously is like
[01:16:30] Oh, he's got his ingenue girlfriend in the movie like, you know, all right warren Right who at this point has already been nominated for two academy awards and held the record for 30 years as the youngest ever best actress
[01:16:42] Is it winslet that knocks that off or someone I think it's k. No, it's it's for lead It's uh, it's uh, kisha castle hughes. I think is the oh, she's the youngest first time on me I thought he was oh, that's crazy. Yes fair enough. Yeah
[01:16:55] Weird bit though. Wow. Yes, very weird bit really weird. It gets repeated later on Later on then the same except it's it's warren baity Wrestling with her and are those breasts? Yeah
[01:17:09] And then she kisses him and it reminded me of the the black adder the black adder seen well Bob or a boy right? Bob Bob But but she plays an important part if you're still trying to make the connection
[01:17:25] To the road pictures because she's basically dortham no more. She's the woman that comes between the two of them and and kind of drives a little bit of a wedge between them
[01:17:38] Uh, and doesn't get resolved until later in the movie, which was pretty typical for the hope and crossbeam You know movies they were always buddies But they're always kind of competing for the same woman and While they don't really
[01:17:53] And that's a big part of this relationship too. I think you've got Hoffman saying You know and later on where he says oh She chose him You know and and he's obviously jealous my girl. No, I thought you know that that whole my girl
[01:18:07] No, she's my girl kind of thing right. I do like watching it. I feel like You know this bit you go like What kind of gay panic shit are they gonna get into but both times? I think they thread the needle pretty well
[01:18:23] Yeah, right. I mean as weird as the boob in the airport moment is Hoffman's responses. I'm not gay look I'm not apologizing. I'm not proud of it. I'm not that bit murders me
[01:18:34] Right, he's a bear. He's embarrassed like look. I wish I was gay. That'd be very cool of me Right, he's embarrassed that straight but then he corrects it with like but I'm not gonna apologize
[01:18:43] Right and then and then with baby it feels like he's having like sort of like a moment of self-discovery Yeah, he doesn't rebel against it. I mean he has a thing where he's like you're such a soft
[01:18:55] Combattant, you know your body's so soft your complexion. I mean what do you do to your skin? You know Uh, but it's it's an odd double beat just especially because is Bella Johnny
[01:19:08] Reads very feminine despite the fact that she's wearing male clothes and they talk a lot about how they had her Redub most of her dialogue to lower her pitch. It doesn't really convince you. She's a very famously beautiful actress Yes, very striking. Yes
[01:19:24] It's also just another strange element of this movie obviously her and baby are together as you said David But like if you're if you're looking at her as as the derthy l'amour of the movie clint To cast like this very serious art house French Anjanoo
[01:19:42] Who is mostly known for her tragic pathos in the role and play it entirely straight is an interesting calculation And it's not until the end that she you know where she says I think they're amazing, you know
[01:19:57] She yeah, she's fallen for both of them. You know which I think is a lovely moment But it's also up until that point. I mean there's that scene where she's talking to The guys and and they're saying to her like you need to take these two guys out
[01:20:11] And she has that sort of pause of like I understand the correct choice is to let two men die instead of a thousand but that doesn't make it any easier Right, you know, yeah, and and I think she plays it. She plays it well
[01:20:24] Yeah, yes, but but it's not giving a comedy performance which I I like But is another thing that probably makes people go. What the fuck is this movie? Yes, definitely But yes, she she has asked Hoffman for his passport so she can travel
[01:20:42] To try and gives him the backpack what she doesn't realize is the map Um, is that that's the thing you should do at airports, right? You want back to this day Right just to swap backpacks with the stranger Give a stranger a passport. Yes, absolutely. That's just like
[01:20:58] That's just the thing we all should do but then groden comes in almost immediately after that, right? Because they and steals the movie Yes, I mean she convinces them She convinces hoffman. It's gonna be very easy to get new passports
[01:21:11] Then you cut to the embassy which is surrounded by armed guards and the guy's like absolutely not Absolutely not by monday. What have we done? Oh And then there's such a good like three panel comic strip gag
[01:21:26] Where hoffman gets up and performatively because he's still pretending like he was mugged Punches the wall He punches a hole through the wall because the ishtar embassy is so bad Then you see a guy poke his head out And then when they go into the shot reverse shot
[01:21:43] Of their coverage You see the guy in the other office trying to repair the wall Yeah, and the reaction to the guy's in the background while all this important stuff's going on kills it kills So funny so funny, but now they think like oh hoffman's gonna be stuck
[01:21:59] Beaty's gonna have to do the show without him. Beaty is in over his head I mean, it's one of those things that that uh hoffman says to carol kane when they're breaking up of just like
[01:22:08] You don't understand. I need to be there for him. He cries like once an hour He's so protective Of this guy But so uh, Beaty goes off hoffman feels like i'm just going to be stuck in marocco
[01:22:21] For the next week or whatever, but then charles groden finds him at this bar and and circles him like a hawk. Yeah Gerdon is Handles him so Brilliantly so good. Um, I could watch a whole movie about the groden character
[01:22:36] Like not that I need to but you know what I mean just him being a bumbling cia agent is another that's great Let me watch that too It is it is the only reason the ishtar section of the movie stays a float as far as i'm concerned
[01:22:49] Yes, you're exactly right. He's the he they give him the best gags Right and he basically is the plot driver Um and and and he frames it perfectly. I mean his reactions are the right
[01:23:01] comedic grounding for these two guys shouldn't be in this movie his befuddlement his anger His sort of like sliminess. I mean the fact that uh, you know
[01:23:14] He understands the ego of a failed entertainer so badly that he knows the play is to make hoffman feel like he is important Mm-hmm, right that he's a major figure Even though to everyone else he's saying these guys are pawns the guys don't matter
[01:23:30] There are just the two guys who happen to be in the place at the time And the scene where he meets him in the restaurant and all the waiters are spies
[01:23:38] And as soon as hoffman walks past them to get to the table, they're like, you know holding up radioactive You know geiger counters and trying to find lint on him and then they snap back into character
[01:23:50] Is it's something like you would see in a melbrooks movie. I mean it's it's Hilariously funny and the thing with the pen Well, I was gonna say he gives him the pen because hoffman says he really likes it groden says like take it
[01:24:02] Take it fine. Take my pen. I don't care and then in that second dinner scene He starts repeating the things back to him word perfect He's like, how do you know he goes the pen the pen the pen was a microphone. I was swanky
[01:24:13] And it doesn't do him again But the casualness of which he does it is so funny It's very offhand and that's a brilliant way for him to handle him in the fact that oh, no No, it's you know standard operating procedure, you know, but you're a spy now
[01:24:27] Yeah But but I mean even beyond the isabella johnny of it all I feel like that's One of the things that really drives the wedge in between the two characters is that groden
[01:24:39] Takes him seriously quote unquote. Yes, which makes hoffman feel like am I better than than him? Could I be a major player is he holding you back? I will say I understand that this is crucial to the hope and cross be think right?
[01:24:53] They do need to have their second act divide But because the first act is so good at selling me on them. I don't like it And maybe that's my problem with the second act like it's not a huge problem
[01:25:06] I wanted to be friends, but also like I'm so in on their dynamic Them them disrupted is less interesting to me. Like I wanted more of their dynamic, right The the concert scene is great. I mean like just baby floundering with his prescripted crowd work
[01:25:23] Even if they don't respond the way he wanted them to you know, and I was like the bugs bunny cartoon where the crickets, you know Yeah, well he says I'm gonna play some songs by a couple guys you might have heard of named simon and garfunkel
[01:25:35] Oh, you like them too, and there's nothing in between Smoke on the water the fact that people won't stop yelling out suggestions like it's some shitty improv show They're just some good ideas
[01:25:50] But then as you as you said clint hoffman comes in saves the day and they killed like this should be It's such a sweet moment. They it's they killed but that's not what they wanted to and and to be honest with you if you look back um
[01:26:06] Hoffman's performance in the piano The in the italian restaurant where I mean if you look he's got a tip jar full of money Yeah, and people are liking him and responding to him Maybe they're not loving him and the waiter keeps crashing into him with silverware and sure
[01:26:23] um, but you know they Especially Hoffman has met with a certain level of success if they would just be Happy with that you you get the feeling that they would have killed it at shea Casablanca for the whole whatever it was nine weeks eight weeks
[01:26:39] Whatever it was they're gonna do whatever it's right, but it's it's this thing where it's like they don't want to be Entertainers they want to be artists and they want to be looked upon with all you know um
[01:26:48] So let's talk about that for a second because this to me is a very important point about this movie Is the fact that You know I I admire the thing that makes them admirable is their passion
[01:27:06] They are passionate about this they are this is what they want and It also stems into that whole lane may awkwardness thing is You are sure they're never gonna be Right big stars and yet will not be realized. Yes
[01:27:24] Right, but at the end of the movie. Well, I don't want to give away the end of the movie Well, go ahead it works it works They and so I think it's a comment also on But getting deep here on popular entertainment. I think it's it's
[01:27:40] It's a comment on the music industry um, which is obviously in the 30 Whatever some years since this movie came out has just turned on its ear four or five different times but the fact that Nobody's ever gonna say that they are incredibly talented and that they're brilliant performers
[01:28:04] Uh, and yet they do succeed. I can remember the first time I saw the movie afterwards. I said I don't know if they'll ever make a sequel But my god, I'd really like to know what happened to them after this
[01:28:18] I I I think that's part of her sort of like Her edge in this movie is Recognizing there's not a major difference between the american government and the american entertainment industry That they are both just about big money bluffs, right?
[01:28:37] They're people faking their way and convincing people they know what they're doing to higher and higher Levels of power the ultimate joke that they finally get a record deal and the record deal is with the cia Is just so deeply funny to me
[01:28:52] The only way these guys can get an album released is through like a government overthrow. Yes. Yeah, and david The the photograph of the the tower records window It maybe that was a lane may follow up because isn't there a sign on there that says something about
[01:29:11] Now at a reduced price. Yes. It's so funny I I was trying to find an image of for for my background, but this movie is not yet Here's this huge display in this in this tower records. God bless and we miss him so rip
[01:29:25] Yeah, um, so obviously there's still the the government pushing it, but they've got it at a reduced price so, you know Well, and it's one of these lights in the back in the discount rack like another can of peas We're jumping to the end
[01:29:39] But uh, you know, it's like you you start close up on oh here They are in the window the exact thing they dreamed of and then when you pull out you see the reduced price sticker
[01:29:48] But you don't see them and that's the last shot of the movie the credits roll over that And part of the beauty is you just imagine they don't care that the album isn't selling
[01:29:58] Yeah, they wanted that what they care about is that it got in that window. Yeah. Yes, sure Yes, they don't care that they didn't get it through talent right that they got it through essentially blackmailing the american government
[01:30:10] They don't care that it didn't sell and no one likes it. They don't want money They have no they don't seem to they don't strike me as people who would know what to do with a lot of money
[01:30:20] Anyway, right like it's not like if they were suddenly rich, they would be like, oh great I want to buy this big house. They just as you say they want the The ineffable cultural credibility of of a simon and garfunkel
[01:30:32] They want to be seen as big deals and that's why hoffman is so susceptible to grodens, uh, you know Conversations, but that that drives the wedge in them. I agree that this is the least exciting part of the movie
[01:30:45] You get some fun bits like the fruer bermuda shorts thing But then you like like a casino roy like the finale of casino royale when they're running through the marketplace And there's cowboys and there's you know people in fezzes and just the thing of like
[01:31:02] Okay, I'm spying on you. Oh, but I'm not right back and forth of that like oh, I'm doing something normal always funny Crushes it. It's so funny. It's so funny. My god
[01:31:16] Ben liked ish tar. I like dish tar. I never saw before. I mean it was weird as hell Sure I was like what is this thing and I knew it was bad going into it
[01:31:28] Or at least that was the right you knew the rap. That's what everyone said about it But there's so much great stuff in there. It's just And I it's challenging It doesn't hold your hand at all. It doesn't so I so I saw this in this
[01:31:44] It was going to be released on bluer after being unavailable for 20 plus years and then Sony cancelled the bluer a release like two months before it was supposed to come out Then a lane may went and screened at a bunch of places
[01:31:58] I think like that jacob burn center screening there is your brody wrote about this nice second street y screening that I went to And then it finally ended up coming out on bluer a couple years later
[01:32:07] And now it's back in you know, uh the the cycle availability. I've got it. I bought it Uh, but but at this q&a someone asked a lane may because this is the next main section of the movie Then with the blind camel, right? Right
[01:32:22] Warren Beatty is told you have to get a blind camel which is probably code that he takes literally Mm-hmm. And so he ends up with this camel that can't see And you watch the camel performance in this and you just go like how did they pull this off?
[01:32:34] She's not a director who relies on editing a lot other than in montage You're mostly having unbroken two shots where they're moving through a marketplace or an open desert And you're not cutting around the camel and the camel is somehow always doing the funniest possible thing at every
[01:32:54] Looking at the wrong direction pulling them the wrong way They're reacting to the camel perfectly and someone in this q&a asked her How did you get that performance out of the camel? And she went, I don't know. I don't remember
[01:33:09] Cool and whoever was interviewing went wait, but no but the camel hits like all these specific marks They're very like impeccably timed jokes around the camel. You don't remember and she went
[01:33:19] I don't know. I probably just did enough takes until it ended up doing what I wanted it to do Which is a great explanation of how this movie costs so much money Yeah
[01:33:27] Elaine may in the middle of the desert with two of the biggest movie stars alive and a camel just saying like I don't know. We'll just keep shooting film until the camel gets one take right The camel that they had so much trouble finding
[01:33:39] Because you had to find a blue eyed camel. You had to find a blue eyed camel So they they sent whoever it was the production guys to go find a camel they go to this one You can't put contacts in the camel
[01:33:51] They're big. They're really it would be like a teacup Okay, so they go to to find and they find a blue eyed camel And this guy I don't remember what the amount was but he says yeah, and they said well
[01:34:02] We're gonna keep looking, you know like they're in new york. They were trying to hardball a guy, right? Yeah, I said, well, we'll come back and they said they can't find another blue eyed camel
[01:34:11] They come back and say okay, we'll take him and they say that's too late. We ate him They ate him they did not realize how scarce blue-eyed camels are And in the four days they went looking for other camels the original seller ate him
[01:34:26] I will say bad move by the original seller if they're rare eat another camel. Why are you eating the blue eyed one? Absolutely Hey, all right also Maybe they're hungry
[01:34:37] Well, they might have been hungry and if so that you know, that's how the cookie grumbles. I mean that makes sense That whole scene where they're haggling for it um He's supposed to ask for somebody named muhammad
[01:34:48] So he goes to the use camel dealership and says muhammad and like six guys say yo I'm muhammad. They said uh, I want to buy a blind camel. Yeah, I can get you a blind camel
[01:34:59] Do you want to lame camel and then the joke would you like a dead camel? And what kind of stock do they keep at this place? That moment where the guys huddle with each other and they're like wait, this guy likes shitty camels
[01:35:13] Like we're gonna make a million dollars. Can I just read an excerpt? This is from um, peter biskin's uh, Warren Beatty biography a star which has some of the best writing on ishtar
[01:35:26] I've ever read and there's a good vandy fair piece from 2010 where they excerpt just kind of the ishtar section of it um, they they wanted to shoot the film in los angeles Coca-Cola had frozen assets in morocco that had to be spent there
[01:35:43] So coca-cola forced the movie to be shot in morocco so they could spend that money, right? To be clear this is elaine may has made three small budget movies that are basically set in new york city
[01:35:57] Like there is i love i love her and then she's so incredibly talented But she's never made a movie this kind of scale. No, so i'll just read this verbatim It's supposed to be 10 weeks in morocco, right? But but at the time ishtar began production in october 1985
[01:36:13] Morocco was not the most hospitable location for a major hollywood film Especially one that featured a rich jewish movie star on october 1st israeli war planes had bombed the headquarters of the palestine organization close to nearby tinnies
[01:36:27] A week later most likely in reprisal four hijackers from the palestine liberation front seized a cruise ship The achilly loro and dumped passenger leon Klingoffer the jewish american overboard into the warm waters of the Mediterranean after shooting him dead as he sat in his
[01:36:41] Wheelchair to make matters worse the moroccan government was involved in a protracted struggle with gorillas at the palisero front The air was alive with frightening rumors. We heard there were armed palestinians headed our way recall silver
[01:36:55] Who is on board as the production designer? There we were with dustin who sort of stuck out According to one source we had been looking for locations when this extremely agitated moroccan general came rushing up
[01:37:08] You have to wait for the minesweeper. He shouted there are mines all around here You could lose a leg. We had been walking for three days at that point Everyone went white
[01:37:19] Can you imagine if you're shooting the morocco section of the movie first and that's pre-production that happens What the mood must be like on the show? Yeah, and she wasn't getting along with her star c cinematographer
[01:37:34] And or or Vilma shigman, right? Yes. And and I mean in some accounts I read she you know Her relationship with baby was starting to fall apart Beatty started pushing back and trying to I think kind of defensively to cover his ass
[01:37:49] Wrestle control of the movie away from her But it's it's the classic baby thing where the studio is like well, do you want to fire? We'll fire her and he's like
[01:37:55] No, no that would make me look terrible. No. I'm a feminist. I'm a feminist. Yeah, I'm a liberal feminist I'll just try and ghost direct the movie kind of while the movie is happening, which is what he does with bugsy It's like he and he has this line
[01:38:10] It's I think it's on bugsy where he's like, yeah No, I mean if I'm in the in front of the camera so much. I don't want to direct that's too much work
[01:38:16] And it's like he obviously does all the work anyway. Like he just wants to boss everything around He he had a line before rules don't apply when people asked him why it took him so long to make a
[01:38:28] Movie and he said making a movie for me is like vomiting You don't want to do it. You try to put it off for as long as you possibly can and then when you actually do it It's restorative and you feel better but
[01:38:42] Yes, I mean that's that's that's a good. I just think I think he He does everything he can to avoid having to officially take that job title Even if whenever he stars in a movie, he's gonna end up doing a lot of the work right but like
[01:38:57] The story of this movie is really it's like You have these two massive egotistical perfectionist stars this writer director who's famous for kind of like you know being very finicky on set and and clashing with the studio and all that
[01:39:12] And like columbia is like, I don't know guys and they're like Yeah, we don't know either and like it just sort of happens without with everyone kind of knows It's going to go wrong. It feels like yeah, well, you know while it's all coming together
[01:39:26] Right, you have a major company who are neophytes in the entertainment industry who have bought this studio and want to big foot Everyone and be like no we make big movies. We give our stars what they want that thing where hoffman's like
[01:39:37] Well, maybe you don't pay me as much and coca-cola is like we're gonna pay you more just for saying that like, you know Right, but just all that well, maybe we shoot it in LA absolutely not the plane is gas get to marocco now
[01:39:50] Who cares if there's international conflict brewing across the entire world? Like and it's just like ah, they they they should have seen this coming They see it coming and then the minute it starts being tense the studio is like well
[01:40:04] This thing's a fucking disaster like we got to bury this thing right And this font section of the movie where it was supposed to be a much larger action sequence and baby essentially went to elaine may and was like
[01:40:16] I really don't know if you know how to handle this You should let me direct it and she pushed back so they just shrunk the sequence to essentially one bazooka Yeah, apparently the the battle scene confrontation was a huge Yes
[01:40:32] Breakdown and yet they were still able to go back to new york and shoot the best shit ever And shoot the best part of it ever
[01:40:39] Everything about the production stories you would it just has to be that the sahara was last and that's where everyone's not talking to each other anymore Fuck you elaine may is like can we can we move this sand dude and people are like
[01:40:52] What is she talking about camels are getting eaten and you're like oh my god And instead they're like anyway, let's get back to new york and knock out beautiful material
[01:41:00] But I think something about the tensions being that high by the time they get to new york gives it this weird depth of feeling You know, there's nothing flippant about it
[01:41:10] Um, but I mean groden is so much of this last chunk of the movie is just saved by the cuts to groden in that one office set So good I mean he's he's at like a phone console that looks like it's out of a laugh in
[01:41:24] Right exactly it does and do you you imagine elaine may be just being like more or more just do shit Just just be funny. He's so funny. Well, they give him some of the best lines. I mean the thing about the
[01:41:37] Um, tell the camel to move one foot to the right tell the camel to move one foot to the right Why she it's standing all my fun, you know that which is I mean kind of an expected thing, but it's still a great joke
[01:41:52] And I have to go back because there's one thing we skipped over and this was one of hoppins funniest lines When we were talking about isabel johnny's character and he said She's a suspected terrorist and he says well granted, but that doesn't mean she sleeps around. Yes
[01:42:08] so many of Little lines are just so good But yes, I mean this section them being stuck surrounded by vultures with a blind camel in the middle of nowhere At least you're getting the magic back of these two guys together riffing songs, right? Yeah
[01:42:25] Yeah, and that's when it starts working again when they're out in the desert and they're crawling along They just had this big fight And you know, this is where they they're starting to bring that they're getting the band back together
[01:42:37] And they're crawling around in the desert and they start songwriting and I don't remember which one of them says it But they say it sincerely, which is how all of their good stuff works. He says this is some of our best work. Yeah
[01:42:52] Yeah, and there's that whole exchange with hoffman telling Beatty to stop wearing the wrap around his head because it will die his face And he goes face is going to turn blue no one can see us out here
[01:43:03] They constantly in the middle of being caught up in this geopolitical nightmare They keep on saying like god if the press gets wind of this it's gonna take our careers That kills me anytime they do that
[01:43:14] Yeah, just that the idea that the press is hounding them like that is following their every move waiting them for This kind of reputation can really sink some guys, you know It's can we talk about the the auction scene? Sure. Yeah, yeah, absolutely
[01:43:31] I mean, I want to know what you guys thought of the The auction scene I mean, I love it. I love the idea of shady like affairs happening in a sandy hot desert Like yes, I think that it's funny but it also is
[01:43:52] A thing that hasn't aged well the gibberish thing doesn't that's what I was well. Yes, right Because I would say weirdly the rest of this movie aged pretty well for a movie about Middle Eastern relations And in the era of Reagan I think it's in certain ways
[01:44:10] Was very on point and I feel like there's because it's so scathing about America partly and you know, yeah It's about blundering idiotic americans on every level the cAA but also these guys
[01:44:22] Right and the fact that it's on the side of a downtrodden people trying to overthrow an oppressive government, you know, it doesn't just sort of Paint with a wide swath that's sort of like everyone there is a scoundrel You know, and I think I think you're right, Ben
[01:44:37] I don't know if they could get away with that scene if it was a movie that came out today But you know, there's that that is not condemnation Because there's a lot of movies that are so close to my heart that wouldn't you know couldn't get made today
[01:44:50] No, no, no, no, I don't think so Thematically them coming together again and doing a double act again is crucial like that's right That's the beauty of it. Right. Yeah, and but this is my point in the auction scene. They do that. Yeah. Yeah They work together
[01:45:08] That's why this insane insanity of Of Hoffman pretending that he you know speaks arabic or all these different, you know And but Beatty is working the crowd as an inside shield because he's still in disguise and it works on a comedy logic level which I think
[01:45:28] Saves it, but it's the two of them working together. That's why it's crucial. Right What I think is so telling is what was on paper designed to be a big action sequence gets reduced to One bazooka and one helicopter and Charles Groton stressing out behind a phone, right?
[01:45:47] Marty freed has now gotten the map in the mail. He's negotiating the terms Just that moment is so incredible when he says like these are the terms The the government will be handed over To whatever Isabella Johnny's sweeping social reforms sweeping social reforms led by
[01:46:05] Ashira a sell also rogers and clark want a live album with a full promotional support And just growing going easy easy. We can do that. We can do that then hanging up the phone and going It's a disaster. I don't know what to tell
[01:46:19] They're trying to get us to release an album for these picks up the red phone. I love that. Yes So good. Yes, sir. Well, no, sir. Yes, uh-huh. Yes, sir And and the Reagan picture in the background
[01:46:29] But then it's like what should be the big action sequence that would be where most of the money got spent And for audiences would be like who gives a shit Instead is like an afterthought and then the movie essentially ends with like another eight minute concert
[01:46:42] Yep, which is good, which is I love perfect. It lets them do a victory lap. It's exactly what we want. That's where our bread is buttered, you know And you know what? I think that that I think it works the battle scene or lack thereof works
[01:47:00] because for the most part There's not There's a threat of violence. There is a threat of death I mean even even in the the the gunfight when they're running through the the marketplace and stuff I don't know if it ever shows anybody Getting hit. I don't remember
[01:47:20] That's why for me one of the one of the shots that didn't work that I think they could have done without was Uh, Johnny's brother being basically eviscerated. Yeah, I agree. You know early on
[01:47:34] But the fact that you know if they had fired off the rocket launcher and blown the helicopter out of the sky It wouldn't have worked tonally With with the movie and I mean, I don't know what else would have been in that big battle scene
[01:47:51] It it really helps that they had to scale it down and and lyla has the great line I'm reading here verbatim nothing ever happened to us and now we're going to die out in the desert shooting at helicopters
[01:48:03] Yeah, and what is it that ain't that ain't poverty that ain't poverty And they're laughing together and the teams back together. Yes Uh, the entire american military station in ishtar in morocco having to come to the concert
[01:48:18] So that they get the best audience response of their entire life, right? Uh, and the groden sitting at the table constantly trying to sell his like Cia higher ups that they've made a good deal I also just I oh, I think that like
[01:48:33] Someone making like a cop or a military soldier coming up behind you being like a plot a plot I just think that's always funny. So yeah, just it reminds me of like I've always been interested in just like the history of our government trying to
[01:48:51] break up the mob And in florida they the fbi ran a restaurant that the mob bosses But like they had to like order supplies. They had to hire chefs. They had to design a menu You know, just like to me that is just so funny
[01:49:09] uh, like getting ringers to show up and like Be really into this like live performance like that's hilarious And then what I find genuinely Pretty poignant that the shot of isabella johnny crying and marty freed asked her what's wrong And she says I just think they're wonderful
[01:49:27] And to a certain degree despite the fact that the movie has gotten a little Disrailed by the two of them fighting over her, right?
[01:49:34] And like well, I have to bring this back to her. Can I be there when you bring it back to her and all this shit? Uh What they really wanted is what she's giving them there at this table
[01:49:43] Which is someone looking at them as if they're important artists, right? The movie ends on this moat that Note that maybe the three of them are going to end up just being a thrupple together
[01:49:52] Or maybe they'll just bet cash in on the fact that she liked their music for the rest of their lives That she's now a big fan, right? That's all that matters They got one person who looked at them the way they looked at each other
[01:50:04] And then yes, and then you just have that beautiful transition from them singing dangerous business to the The tower record. Oh god Now let's let's talk about David Putnam, baby this movie Sort of got sandbagged by david putnam. Do you want to leave this David putnam?
[01:50:21] Of course I do david putnam. So david putnam in britain a legendary film producer He's I believe he's a lord now. He's he was you know, he's a sort of a steen, you know, he produced What did he produce girlfriend bugsy malone? Obviously chariot's a fire
[01:50:36] That's his biggest hit midnight express a lot of like big british movies in the 70s Allen parker. Yeah. Yeah, Alan parker lord now. He's a lord now. Yes
[01:50:47] What does that mean? Well, you know what what is he a lord of classically been in britain like lords were like, you know Aristocrats like they were landowners and you would pass the title, right? You know, you're like truly your classic aristocrat
[01:51:00] Right, uh-huh. That has mostly been done away with that's kind of that's gone. I should hope so So now lords are basically just it's It's just like you're like a fancy person who's done well in life
[01:51:13] It's decided and you get to be you get to sit in the house of lords and like it's it's like lower than being Knighted being a sir, but it's like one of the honorifics, right?
[01:51:25] Well, it's a political role. You you have a role in government. You're in the house of lords It's it's above we're knighted being knighted is just like you're great congrats
[01:51:34] Because this guy's probably also been knighted. Oh, he has a cbe. Okay, he didn't quite make knighted but close Um, but being a lord is like that means you are politically involved enough that you want to
[01:51:45] Sit in the house of lords and like listen to people read laws and be like yes. Yes. No. No, you know anyway Okay, he's a lord. Well, this is my question for you then not to get off track But I need to I need clarification on this. Yeah
[01:51:59] How would you know all of this? No, i'm not doing that. I'm not doing that bit I'm not doing it. It's a serious question. It's a serious question. Okay, Christopher guest also has lordship, right? He is an a hereditary lord. Okay, so that's my question
[01:52:11] So some people are given lord as a title because of what they've accomplished in other fields And other people have it passed down because of family lineage Used to be the Christopher guest thing where it was
[01:52:23] You know, but in 1999 if you look up Christopher guest, it puts it makes it clear Those seats were essentially abolished. So he is no longer I believe he is still a baron He still has like a title an honorific title, but he does not get to
[01:52:37] affect the laws of britain anymore Not that I think he ever made a big effort to do that But here's the question could I be a lord of something if you work hard enough? I am You are you are you're a lord? Yeah, I uh, I paid 50 bucks
[01:52:54] And You think I'm kidding? I don't think you're kidding. I'm just I've got this I've got this little tiny piece of sod and I've got my lordship papers That I sent actually it was a birthday gift that my my wife Got for me But the point is
[01:53:10] Ben this, you know, you said well as it should be They haven't they didn't abolish it that long ago up until recently and a lot of it at least in my interpretation Was economically driven
[01:53:22] Because you know they these people had to give up their properties and had to give up their castles and had to give up all That's how I was able to buy my one square foot of sod I mean, not bad if you're going to look at it
[01:53:36] No, I Oh, well, I was going to but then this that pandemic you mentioned earlier. Yeah, I'm sorry spoilers Well, let's say the two big puttnam credits that are important are He does he produces the movie agatha the agatha christie movie
[01:53:51] Which dustin hoffman comes in with a lot of script notes and he's supposed to play a supporting part And he makes himself essentially the lead of the movie. So puttnam has a bad experience with uh, uh
[01:54:03] Hoffman i'm trying to find this exact quote. He said I have the quotes I have the quote dustin hoffman is the most malevolent person i've ever worked with That is the quote And he hates so he hates hoffman calls him a worrisome american pest. That's the other wow
[01:54:19] The other line he has for him. Yeah, he also hates varen baity when he Because chariot's of fire went up against reds that year for best picture and it defeats it was the underdog
[01:54:30] It was the underdog. It was the sort of surprise winner. It's not as good a movie. I would say is reds Um, but you know, it's a lot that was ugly too. That was an ugly ugly public
[01:54:41] It was ugly puttnam wrote a an op ed piece for the la times saying why he thinks reds represents the worst of what Hollywood is doing and overbumped budgets and dulgets. Were you about to say this? Sorry Yeah, I mean
[01:54:53] The line I liked is that he told the press that baity ought to be spanked Yes for the budget of reds the the thing that is truly Staggering is to think about that people at the time were like, uh warren baity churning out
[01:55:08] You know three hour, you know over budget hollywood pap about famous communists Like now it would be like reds would be impossible Even fucking tom cruise couldn't get reds made nobody could get reds made anymore But also like for how much people talk about how awful fucking
[01:55:27] Oscars season politicking has become in the early 80s a producer of one nominated movie Wrote an op ed piece slamming another movie without ever identifying that he was the producer of a film up for the same award
[01:55:42] Yeah, and elaine may said in one of those retrospectives you were talking about from just recently that She said he was a putz And she said unfortunately back then because he was british when british people spoke
[01:55:55] We have this tendency to go. Oh, he must be telling the truth. That must that must be really real Yeah, he sounds so smart meanwhile, they're not smart at all And and and you know meet the new boss
[01:56:09] Completely different from the old boss. Yeah, obviously because you know, he'd been buddy buddies with mackleway And you've got another Who to me is and I hope I don't offend anybody in his family another putz was fey vinson Who was over
[01:56:25] Who was like a vp at coca-cola or something and was over he's the one who fires He I mean he eventually was the he was a famously bad commissioner baseball Oh, terrible commissioner by my least favorite commissioner of baseball
[01:56:39] But I mean he was he was ragging on it too He was not supporting the thing is that putnam comes in he's only in charge of columbia for a year because putting him in charge like as as the as the The what's his name?
[01:56:53] Biscond piece puts it. It was like putting jerry making jerry fall. Well the mayor of san francisco Why Love that why would you why would you hire someone who's like hollywood movies cost too much money and are stupid
[01:57:06] To run a hollywood studio like it doesn't make any sense So he's out of the job within a year. Well, he was coming in to cut budgets He was coming in to cut budgets and stuff
[01:57:15] He also was grandstanding. I mean he was coming in and saying like this town is rotten Detroit has a cry a cancer that cancer is crime Like how are you gonna form relationships with the people who make movies in hollywood if you call them all assholes?
[01:57:29] Like this is not you're not a fucking cop like, you know, you have to like make movies anyway He comes in and he apparently made some sort of fuss of like well I won't Talk about ishtar because I've you know, I've had my clashes with baity and hoffman
[01:57:46] But then that just looks like he's bearing the movie because he's essentially saying like well I can't say what I think of the movie. He did one thing before that He when he takes over and he's he does a big press conference
[01:57:58] And he's talking about tightening the belt and how hollywood should be run He goes like we're gonna change things at columbia like for example columbia just wrapped production on this movie called ishtar where war and baity dustin hoffman and lame may got paid
[01:58:12] 12 million dollars in the desert that is out of control. It ran amok. It was over schedule We're not gonna make movies like that anymore that having been said I will be taking no part in the post production process. They're on their own
[01:58:25] So he he sort of said like he pointed it out as this is the poster child of what i'm trying to stop from happening again That having been said all the best if the movie fails
[01:58:35] It's on them because i'm not going to interfere and iota and then he stops talking about it But it immediately puts a bull's eye on this movie's back Which added in with the fact that like baity had always been very hostile towards the press
[01:58:47] Wouldn't let press visit the sets of his movies Just all of it was sort of mounting against this film. He also didn't button also say I haven't seen this movie and I never will yes. He openly admits he never saw the movie
[01:59:01] That's the the whole story of ishtar right is so many people like oh god that thing stuck Did you see it no? I watch it now. What do you mean? Yes, and and i'm not saying I don't think it's a perfect movie
[01:59:14] I don't it's not my favorite elaine moon movie. I guess although I love all our movies. So like who cares but It's pretty terrific and interesting and unusual and it's got these movie stars that I love like at this right, you know like
[01:59:30] I wish more movies were like it Yeah, I mean I wish elaine may have made 10 more movies Like even if the even if look maybe she just hated it and I I Sympathize because yes, there's all these stories of oh this was over budget
[01:59:45] No, like you know she was clashed but like as we've talked about on this podcast and on this miniseries like that's the story of so many directors And you know she's being punished for being a woman and for being you know, we we've I mean
[01:59:58] I feel if we've lived dedicated this to death, but you know right like I mean this is this is the oldest news I'll say I I've repeated this in in all four of these episodes at this point
[02:00:07] But it's a necessary thing to repeat so at this 92nd street Why I think someone asked her about the feeling of like being put in movie jail and never being allowed to make another movie again after ishtar and she said I could have made another movie
[02:00:22] Like maybe I couldn't have made exactly what I wanted to make but I got offers after ishtar There are people who offered to produce things that I had written
[02:00:30] You know want to take them a screen. I just didn't want to deal with it anymore. Yeah, I mean it sounds like a wrenching Yeah, right. Maybe I could have had an ideal career But very much I chose to not give a shit about
[02:00:42] Film directing anymore because who cares she's also the exact same person who broke up nickels and may at the peak of their success Because she was bored with how good things were So I mean she very much is a difficult person
[02:00:55] Almost every director we've covered on this podcast is a difficult person Right almost everyone who gets to this level of a career is difficult eccentric weird Orinary antagonistic in some way
[02:01:07] I think what is different is how much less it was tolerated with her and how much more it was questioned with her Whereas with male directors is very often seen as Being part and parcel with their genius Right because there were there was very there were very few
[02:01:25] Other female. I mean, maybe you could say stricend You know maybe but stricend was always even if her movies were successful She was always lambasted for she's difficult. She sure goes hand these movies are so big Yes, so what i'm wondering is is this is
[02:01:39] Is is it fair to say That the criterion for being a successful director is part artistic But also part management And that yeah, there's absolutely no question about her artistic skills her creativity her humor But how much of the job is management? How much of the job is
[02:02:09] running The production and my follow-up point is this Is that the way it's supposed to be Is that not the job of producers which gets back to my original point is I think baity's the one That dropped the ball. I think it should be late at baity's piece
[02:02:29] As funny as he is in this movie. He's the villain in that he's coming and saying lane I'm gonna take all the bullets for you right and then the second they start or whatever early into filming He's like, I don't get what you're doing here
[02:02:40] Should I take over like, you know, like, I mean he he fails in that role Uh-huh because he says in interviews it's in the biskin stuff where he's like She's never had a good producer. I can be her good producer
[02:02:51] Like she never had someone, you know sticking up for her to the studios and then he fucking blew it So my question is does that then also mean That baity aired in selecting her To do this
[02:03:06] Movie, do you know what i'm saying? No, I think look, you know, look at some movies like a lot of them I feel like we're a pain in the ass to make but at least the movie's there
[02:03:15] It's also one of these things like as much as the premise of this show is kind of otor driven I feel like we constantly try to frame the conversations around how much these things are collaborative And how much the best elements of movies come out of friction
[02:03:29] People coming with different ideas than what the director intended or what the script was originally meant to be and all that sort of stuff That's part of the soup. I think she's an antagonistic person
[02:03:40] Elaine may I think that's part of the friction that drives a lot of her creative work. I think that's tolerated far less from women and I think in a way that I find personally respectable
[02:03:53] But it was absolutely disastrous to her career when you talk about management versus artistry clint is she just had Zero interest in playing the game at every single point in her life. She just doesn't care
[02:04:05] She tells people exactly what she thinks, you know, she doesn't finesse things and she will just go to her grave With what she thinks is right. And I think that just made people go like
[02:04:17] Not worth it. And I hear these stories you read these stories about Beatty questioning her and Vitoris Toro Questioning her and all these people and it does feel very similar to a thing
[02:04:27] I've experienced a lot on sets with female directors where I just see them be given a lot less latitude And a lot less faith from their mostly male crews, you know Regardless of what they have or haven't done up until that point
[02:04:43] I just I every time I worked with a female director, which I've gotten to do a lot on television in particular Uh, I will see those conversations where a female director goes and here's how I want to break it down
[02:04:54] The cameras here the shots here. We do this first We do this second the director walks off set and then I hear two crew guys going She has no idea what she's talking about right?
[02:05:02] That makes no sense. Okay, and I just I just never really hear those conversations with male directors So I think it the combination of being so Strong-minded and what she wants to do so unconventional in her process Being someone who doesn't mince words and doesn't suffer fools
[02:05:22] And getting into very unwieldy Bizarre ambitious productions with big egos It's just a perfect storm for people to be like not worth it, you know I do think she could have made another movie again if she wanted to but I think it's a combination of
[02:05:38] Maybe I just know at this point it wouldn't turn out the way I wanted to or they won't let me make the kind of Movie I want to and and life's too short and why not just put on a play off Broadway Yeah, and I
[02:05:49] I appreciate that about her. I admire that about her. I I think legend we stand stick into your guns And not worried about the commercialism or or anything else and like I said It's one of the things I love about this movie is the chances it takes
[02:06:05] You know and and and and tries to do something a little bit different. I just I just I Always think god what what if that's why you blew me away with the whole sequence of filmy thing because
[02:06:21] I've always said what oh man, what if what if she had been as been allowed to or had felt like doing the The ishtar part
[02:06:35] As brilliantly as she did the new york part where she had control of a handful of actors in a setting that she's familiar with New york and entertainment and stuff Um and you know and the fact that it did amend the sequence you said absolutely blows one
[02:06:54] Yeah, I mean the biggest what if for me in the movie is just if she had taken hoffman's note of I think it should
[02:06:59] Just be the new york stuff. I think you should rewrite the script and it should just be a character piece about these two guys doing music That's the huge one. She wanted to go to the middle east. She this is her she's interested in this
[02:07:09] Yep, but baby didn't do that No, no, baby. Baby supported that being her instinct. Yeah, but I don't think baby got it You know she wanted to call it road to ishtar Yeah, and baby is the one who said oh no no no, uh
[02:07:26] Because then they'll compare us to hope and cross be well. Yeah Yeah, that's what you're doing. I don't think he got it I I think it's a weird weird weird fucking movie that could only come out of this many strong personalities
[02:07:42] At this very specific point in all their careers having their own motivations And meeting somewhere in the middle in a way that everyone else viewed as calamitous And I think with time has sort of been reclaimed as
[02:07:54] You know if not an entirely great functional comedy an incredibly interesting one With stretches of absolute brilliance. I will say people are at a loss If they never see it. Yeah. Yeah, it's agreed with that too. Absolutely. We're highly worth if you care about movies
[02:08:09] If you care about comedy, it's an important film if you care about any of these actors and Elaine may obviously Um, but let's play the box office game. Please please
[02:08:19] Yes, it was supposed to come out Christmas. It got pushed back because of editing it comes out in the spring They may 15th 1987 may was may that year It was it was but it's also This is long before may is a bustling
[02:08:36] Time at the box office, you know the summer has not yet started So this is kind of a dead time at the box office. It should be dominated But the target had been on their back for a long time in the press
[02:08:47] Um, then they do a test screening and it kills And columbia debates whether they should double down and try to promote it even harder They kind of split the difference. They do release it pretty wide for that moment in time It does fairly well the opening weekend, right?
[02:09:04] It opened to four million dollars. I do no it did not do well. No this movie did not do well Yeah, it opens a four million dollars. It makes 15. It's out of theaters in a month month and a half
[02:09:13] And yes, it does open at number one, but it almost was number two to the gate the number two movie at the box Again the gate Of millenia's a gentleman Right a canadian
[02:09:26] Horror movie from new century vista. Yeah, you know that that like I mean like so like you don't want to Feel the gate breathing down your neck when you're warren baity and you're doing your first movie in six years
[02:09:39] It was not a good look if you're elaine may you don't want to nearly be best at the box office by tibor takas That's that is the name of the director of the gate. Yes tibor takas
[02:09:51] Um who uh directed the pilot of supreme of the teenage witch, so we stand really? Yes, um, yes. He also seems to have done he did the gate sequel to gate two trespassers. Well, of course, uh
[02:10:04] The gate three electric boo-glu. Yeah, he did he did 90s outer limits reboot. Yeah. Yeah uh anyway, um Number three at the box office griffin so the gates number two number three is uh a comedy starring a comedy star of the 80s
[02:10:21] Um, we discussed him in our zemeca series this actor obviously Uh, because uh collaborated with zemecas. Is it a hanks movie? Not a hanks not a hanks, but he did collaborate with zemeca. He certainly did on a very successful series of films
[02:10:37] On a very successful series of movies. I'm not michael dog. De Vito No, come on now. Oh A series of films by robert zemecas michael j fox Where am I sinking? Mikey j uh, this is this is one of his
[02:10:53] His comedies where he's a wise he's a wise ass. Is this secret of my success? It's secret of my success the secret of my success herbert ross
[02:11:04] Uh have never seen with a great theme song great theme song. Okay never seen it either. I've been watching a lot of uh It's a school and ebert worst of the year episodes on youtube recently
[02:11:15] They bagged on it. They bagged on they said they found that film repellent, but they also Like the the entirety of their 1987 worst of the year episode was them just drum rolling up to ishtar It was insane how hard
[02:11:30] They bagged on that movie. But yes, they guys uh rosenbaum talks about how ebert kind of hated baity's whole Thing and his reluctance, you know the press where like just sort of cut off and yeah, maybe that played a role But they'd yes
[02:11:44] Number four at the box office, uh another comedy Um with a new star who's coming over from television A new star coming over from television in 19 coming over from Am I allowed to play? Oh, yeah. Oh, yes, of course. I mean you were you were there clint
[02:12:02] I was a year old griffin is a glint negative father's eye negative two Uh, is this a ted dancin movie? No, no, uh, this is a guy who next year is about to have a sensational hit 1988 this year though. It's like this is a movie
[02:12:19] I would say mostly forgotten was not well reviewed but was like a solid hit and it's it's this this actor and um a female star who's like
[02:12:30] Also, I would say kind of on the up and up and the next year. You just had a big hit the next year. He blows up The next year he has his smash sensation Right, so it's not robin williams. It's not
[02:12:45] Ted dancin is it someone whose tv show was in the 80s like are they on tv at this point in time? They are I mean people forget of course that he was a big tv star, buddy was yeah Uh one of nami It's not bruce willis, right?
[02:13:00] It is bruce willis Blind date it's blind date blind date. You caught me off guard there by thinking of him as a comedy star But of course it's the thing but I mean before diehard bruce willis obviously he's the guy for moonlighting right? You know first and foremost
[02:13:16] Blind date never seen blind date. Uh, what it's what if there was a blind date, right? Like that is the premise right if the date were blind Phil hartman sets him up on a blind date with kim basing or like I don't think there's a lot
[02:13:27] I don't know what it's about. It's blake edwards, right? It's a late blake edwards, right? Like bruce willis did two blake edwards bombs before He got the life raft that was diehard. Yeah, uh sunset right immediate follow-up, right? That's another bruce will Yeah, period gangster comedy
[02:13:46] Right. Yeah, uh willis anyway. Uh, yeah, so that's a number five griffin. It's one of the biggest hits of the year It's an action movie in 1987 This series comes up all the time in the box. It's a rambo. Maybe we should do it
[02:14:00] No, but maybe we should do this one on the patreon griffin. We never talk about it Do you know what it didn't premiere this weekend did it? No, it's been in theaters for uh 11 weeks. Wow. I think I know Take your shot clint lethal weapon
[02:14:15] It's lethal weapon comes up a lot with me. Wow comes up a lot this or the sequels griff They come up a lot when movies used to be in theaters for longer than four weeks. I know Just run and run especially this one. This was a
[02:14:32] March release, right? Like I don't think anyone thought it was gonna be Uh such a colossal hit. 120 million dollars. It's only made 57 now So it's got another you know, it's gonna double its gross over the next few wild the argument against
[02:14:48] Doing lethal weapon as a franchise is that dick donner is kind of coverable Uh, yes, that's true. Yes, that's it's a more contained filmography than I thought I was I've been watching the multiple cuts of the original Superman movie recently. Hell, yeah
[02:15:06] And it made me realize that donner is kind of an interesting guy to put on the on the chart for some point in the future Have you done blake edwards? Edwards is too many too many Edwards is like
[02:15:20] We put him on our march madness bracket and let people vote for him last year But we kind of sabotaged him because we were like we have no idea how we could do it. He made so many god damn Just do the pink panther movies. Well, yeah
[02:15:32] That's what he like quietly just made a bunch of noir movies in the 50s, you know, like he was just around Oh god, listen, he'd be he was one of the earlier directors of the earth like peter gun
[02:15:43] He was a writer and director for the peter gun episodes Griff I do think donner would be good. It's a bit of a slow middle there in between superman and lethal weapon
[02:15:53] But like well, no actually no because there's the goonies. I just don't like the goonies, right? I want in on that one I'm claiming I want in on that one. You want the goonies? Don't give that to another mackle roy
[02:16:03] Let me have that one. I mean there's lady hawk which there's so much. Oh my god with lady hawk Uh, yeah, no donner because it's an interesting career. I mean he falls off at the end, but I still think it would be funny
[02:16:15] Like I still think like but it's like the the last two are shrubs Yeah, but I still think I think timeline and 16 blocks probably are funny to talk about Like yeah, yeah, and the right and before they have lethal weapon for conspiracy theory
[02:16:29] Maverick, I mean like again, sorry, none of these are masterpieces, but fun to talk about probably all interesting Yeah, what's his blank check? I guess it's it's like the toy. I mean it's superman obviously. Yeah, yeah, I mean
[02:16:41] I would argue it's kind of the lethal weapon sequels, but also Right superman is and it isn't yeah. Yeah, and super and him being fired off superman too. Yeah, look
[02:16:51] I mean, let's do it. Why not? Let's do it tomorrow. Yeah tweet at us. Let us know what you think And the only other thing we have to do griff. We're wrapping up here But we gotta I mean it's it's short, but oh sure rank a lane me
[02:17:04] I actually had a lot of trouble with this Because I like them all I do too Let's just say to ben's point if you want to do a richer don or miniseries. Please tweet as hashtag don or party And let's do But bring your own food. Yeah
[02:17:24] Let's let's do our may rankings. I think I can do this. It is difficult It's difficult because I don't want anyone to feel bad for being in last place. That's all right The the difficulty for me is I think heartbreak kid is her most kind of perfect
[02:17:40] Whole film. Yeah, sure, but the stuff I like in ish tar. I like so much That if we're gonna have a very different list I can write if we're if we're talking about favorites And that's all it is. I probably go
[02:17:55] Ishtar just because I I watched the first 25 minutes of this movie several times a year It's really a touchdown for me. I go ish tar then heartbreak kid Then new leaf then mickey and nicky, but she's made four great movies
[02:18:10] I'm the same but I flopped the first and last griffin and mickey and mickey Heartbreak kid new leaf ish tar, but I don't want ish tar to feel bad I don't want mickey and nicky to feel bad
[02:18:21] I don't care about the two of them. I would go with ish tar number one Hell yeah, so that breaks the top. Absolutely Yeah, and we have clint you broke the tie and do you have heartbreak kid two would you say like to remember heartbreak kid?
[02:18:34] Yeah, and I like I like new leaf. I like her I like her acting in new leaf. She's so good now And mickey and nicky I like But I I missed I missed the jokes. I mean, I mean again, that's my whole thing
[02:18:49] I think it's a great movie. I just she's so good at comedy that I want her having jokes in her making me forget the goddess Well, that's true. Yeah Um very quickly David
[02:19:00] You were saying how difficult it was to find a picture of their album cover because you want to as your background Here's a non-merchandised spotlight. The soundtrack for this movie was never released. Nope drop that soundtrack It's a paul william soundtrack
[02:19:15] Doesn't dave grueson also do some music on it too. Yeah, exactly like where is this? Yes, and especially because the full songs were written there have to be full recordings. They were filmed in full I have there's a website. I think called ish tar the film dot com
[02:19:30] Where you can download mp3s that are just the rips of the audio you own the website No, I don't I'm sorry. I I structured my sense improperly I have something that I downloaded from a website called ish tar the film dot com They have a
[02:19:46] Section that's the soundtrack where you can download mp3s that are just the rips of the audio from the film So I have like a fake rogers and clark album Where somewhere I got the jpeg of the album cover and put it on my iTunes
[02:20:00] And it's just the 15 second fragments of the songs which I put on as a playlist and listen to those four minutes Over and over again. It's great. I also did just order I found one on ebay. There was a promotional 45 cent really?
[02:20:14] Right back when they were hopeful right, but it's not Dangerous business. It's little darling. Oh, yeah with the closing credits music Uh, yes, and then the other one is Let me see what the other song. Oh god. Tell me the mecca song is in there
[02:20:30] I think it isn't it's little darlin and the other one is this is saying it's a little darlin on both sides That's not correct. I forget what's on the other side, but anyway
[02:20:39] It's portable picnic is on the other side right right, which is funny, but like just i'm just saying Death waltz records pick up The gauntlet release ish car on vinyl Broadway do the ish tar musical
[02:20:57] I mean yes also do it. Please it's ish tar the movie.com just fyi if anyone wants to check this out No, it's a good website. It's your website. You should remember this
[02:21:08] Uh clint thank you so much for coming on the show clint. Oh, what a delight you very patient very patient cast Waiting so long for this episode to happen. It was absolutely killing me. It was killing me. I'm telling you for the goonies
[02:21:24] We can we can talk about the goonies anytime Yeah People should listen to adventure zone if they don't already you do fishes You should check out the adventure zone books, which you're very hands-on and helping adapt those
[02:21:38] Um, and they're awesome, uh with kary p. She's a great artist Oh, she's amazing and the the adventure zone Cartoon show will be happening on peacock at some point, right? So we've got fingers crossed
[02:21:50] We're we're working that it's one of the things that kind of resonated when I was you know doing a lot of the research You know and reading about you know the process And I and I've heard you tell stories Gryffind just about How stuff gets made it's
[02:22:08] It's really fascinating and you you and you you can't really talk about it but I mean You know all the way from and I love that stuff It's like you know pitch meetings and that I I find that absolutely fascinating and and but it's the stuff in between
[02:22:27] Where you just go like what why does this work this way? Why are these people asking these questions? Oh, I have stories next time we're in the new york bar together. I will tell you guys That is truly a thing to look forward to Um
[02:22:44] Let's also announce our next mini series. That's the last thing we gotta do Because at this point we'll know who won march madness, but we got one more mini series We're gonna do before whoever wins march madness and it is which we're so excited that John carpenter
[02:22:58] One that's so awesome. I mean like are you guys not looking forward to john carpenter? That's gonna rule. That's gonna be so cool I have to admit ben I'm pretty I was surprised that they beat gorever benski in the final two
[02:23:14] But obviously I didn't see that coming at all No, but but they kind of had the road pay for them because I mean them going up against both spike jones and urnist dickerson in an historic three-way mega match
[02:23:26] And the elite eight that was a cake walk. Yeah totally. Yeah Yes, uh, but let's say someone who is not in the march madness bracket Uh, but we're covering next is to date still the youngest director ever
[02:23:39] Nominated for an academy award a record. He is very likely to hold for a very long time if not I don't know yet not a 22 year old's gonna get nominated for fucking best director
[02:23:49] Yeah, definitely you want to talk about major success at the beginning of your career and a career that I think because of Yeah, the weird directions it took later on uh, despite the fact that he died far too young and far too soon
[02:24:02] Has not necessarily been reappraised in the way it should we're talking john singleton, baby Wow Another one. We've just been long. Oh man a long mold mini so excited. It's gonna be good. So excited Only 90 kids will understand. I mean, I know that you know, he made movies
[02:24:19] But whoo well and one of them finally lets us talk about the Fast and Furious franchise proper on this podcast Um, we should mention we have a special one-off next week, right? Do we no do oh, yes, we do. That's right
[02:24:32] We do we do that's right. That's next week. We decided This was a short miniseries elaine may we thought four was the shortest miniseries we'd ever do and then we said What if we didn't even shorter miniseries? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm next week great director
[02:24:48] We are doing our first ever one episode miniseries on an important american director who has only directed one film Ball's in his court if he wants his miniseries to continue at a later point in time
[02:24:58] And we'll have to cover it. We have to at this point. We are beholden Next week. We are of course talking Joseph Gordon Levitt's Don John with the boys themselves Sean Hayes from Hollywood Handbook Oh, I mean we we all knew that this was coming
[02:25:18] David's been pushing it for years I've just been like when are we getting the boys on to talk john and it's gonna happen My boys my ride my porn my girls That's what David says everyone loves a happy ending. Yes, that's the uh the tagline for don john
[02:25:37] We're gonna we're gonna get we're gonna dig into it guys. That's next week though And then single hand blank check crossover then singleton and then whoever wins march madness Yes But we're definitely doing a space jam two episode two
[02:25:50] Oh, yes space jam a new beginning with james newman my brother. Thank you all for listening clint Thank you for being here. It was indeed my pleasure Uh, please remember to rate review and subscribe. Thank you I will griffin. Oh, I thought you were specifically speaking to me
[02:26:07] Right. These these are things I want to say to you clint. Yes. It's very important that you process this Okay, it would mean a lot if you could personally thank joe bowen and pat reynolds for our work Oh joe pat your gods
[02:26:21] And clint, I really think it would hit home if you thanked laymont garmory and the great american novel for our theme song I I would be glad to Thank you and like it's
[02:26:34] It's maybe too much to ask but if you want to maybe just start referring me as chain lord Like just throwing that out as maybe a new sort of moniker title. That'd be really cool Chain lord chain lord lord. Okay
[02:26:49] I'll do that lord of chains. Yeah, just really rolls off the tongue. Good. It's clean. It's clean And this is 2021 rebranding. Uh, of course clint just a few more things. I'm gonna just remind you of impassing Yes If you're looking for some real nerdy shit
[02:27:04] I would recommend maybe go into blankies dot reddit.com if you're looking for some real nerdy shirts I'd maybe recommend checking out our Shopify page Thank you to marie barty for our social media And thank you to our editing team alex barron aj mckinn
[02:27:22] um and uh go over to our patreon Where we're covering the uh the star trek movies where where we're voyaging Home at this point consider me a patreon. Yeah, uh, where what are we doing at this point? It's a
[02:27:37] Yeah, we're about to uh, well, we just we're on the final frontier the last one's coming up on discovered country Yeah, wow. Well, let me just let me just tell people this spock dies Oh, he does rip
[02:27:50] Just wanted to tell you that's that's the kind of guy I am. That's how I roll um That's uh, that's our episode on ishtar tune in next week for don john and as always There's never been a hit song with the word urban it
[02:28:11] Okay, I'm gonna try this. This is gonna be Perhaps the most ambitious opening I've done yet, but I'm gonna try It's gonna be ambitious because I'm gonna try to do it myself rather than asking you to do it if you feel
[02:28:28] Like you know how to accompany me then you can david I won't I mean I I'd not not out of uh like uh grumpy. Just I just I know I can't and then I have the words
[02:28:39] Ben, I just want you to place this at the end of the episode so people know The risk I took Okay Okay