Kundun with Siddhant Adlakha

[00:00:02] [SPEAKER_01] David, we did a live show ranking Scorsese at the Bell House in Brooklyn. We did the definitive power ranking of Martin Scorsese things. It was so fun. It was very silly. Ben and Marie were with us and they're with us right now.

[00:00:18] [SPEAKER_02] Hey everyone, or should I say oh!

[00:00:22] [SPEAKER_01] And thanks to our friends at Dynasty Typewriter, it was live streamed for the first time ever. But also, the replay is still up there, but only until October 30th.

[00:00:31] [SPEAKER_02] So just a few more days. Yes. You can get it at Dynasty.tv.

[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_03] Dynasty.tv! It's $20. Mm-hmm. We had a blast and the Spreadmaster really got to work. Oh yeah, I was moving things around. Laptop was on.

[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_02] I don't know if I'd ever seen you that happy.

[00:00:47] [SPEAKER_01] You were thrilled. You were like a pig and shit. I was locked in. Yeah, very locked in and you were funny. Thank you. You were funny. You were also funny.

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_03] Oh, thank you. And if you want to see like, you know, Griffin's shine box on camera. It's the only way to see it.

[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_01] You might see me shine my shoes. Exactly. Yeah, if you're into that sort of content. If that gets you off.

[00:01:09] [SPEAKER_04] Okay.

[00:01:10] [SPEAKER_02] So once again, that's at Dynasty.tv.

[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_01] The destiny of a people lives in the heart of a podcast. Now, I debated doing the inverse, which is the destiny of a podcast lives in the heart of a boy. But that starts to sound a little funky. Uh, yeah. That's the tagline. The tagline is the destiny of a people lives in the heart of a boy. And then it's a big picture of a boy. It is a big picture of a boy. It is a big picture of a boy. The colors.

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_03] The colors. Yeah, the colors. The, the, the title with the, you know, the, the K having the sort of swoopy sand art strand.

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_01] It's certainly a poster I saw as a boy. And in the heart of this boy, I went, that's a grown up movie. That looks about as grown up of a movie as I can imagine.

[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_03] I think as a boy, I probably thought it was called like Kundun or something. I probably mispronounced it. And I do think even at the time I had the vague awareness of like, uh, that it was weird that it was a Martin Scorsese picture. Like, I think at 11, I knew like, oh, that's funny that he made this one. Um, it does say a Martin Scorsese picture right at the top.

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_01] That's the top. That's, that was their, their box office hook. That was the closest thing they had to one. Well, their box office hook eventually became, please don't see this movie. We're begging you not to see this. We apologize. We're so sorry.

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_03] The sovereign nation of the People's Republic of China. And this is Disney?

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. This is Disney. It's just from the director of Goodfellas and the writer of E.T. comes a Walt Disney production of, as the poster says, the amazing story of the 14th Dalai Lama. It's just a crazy series of elements that lined up to make this movie. And by the time it was released, Disney was actively telling people not to go. We're sorry we made a huge mistake. This was a stupid move, is what Michael Eisner said.

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_03] Eisner, it's, we're going to delve into it. It's a very interesting moment. The early dismissiveness of Disney's reaction to China's protests. And then the quick turn on the dime of like, actually, we're sorry. After it comes out, I guess reflects like what was happening right then with China's sort of like growing cultural hegemony or whatever.

[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_01] A thing I also just never realized because the tale of it is so long is that Disneyland Shanghai is a delayed mea culpa for the release of this movie. Very delayed. In the fallout of this film, they start having conversations of like, how can we make this up to you? It's this moment. Disneyland Shanghai doesn't open until 2011. Well, it takes a while. They have to build an entire theme park to make up for this movie. Well, first you have to open a portal to the wonderful world of Disney.

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_03] This is true. It's hard to find those portals. You can speak. If you have any take on the nonsense we're spouting right now.

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_00] Hi.

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_03] Hello. That's the perfect response. No, I'll jump in when it's relevant.

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_00] Okay. I enjoy listening as well.

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_03] It's just like, I just feel like in the early 90s, if you were like, well, what about the Chinese market? Like, you know, big Hollywood C-suite executives would just have been like, what? Who cares? Like, there's no money to be made there. Like, or not enough. And we don't listen to those commies. You know, they don't tell us what to do. And then there comes a moment where it's like, oh, wait a second. Actually, are we leaving some money on the table if we can't get into the Chinese market?

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_01] The 90s Disney was so big that they were the first that really had to contend with that. I mean, I think so, right? Their impact and the bleed of just everything they were putting out in that decade.

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_03] I have John Cena on the line and he's going to weigh in. Sorry. I just can't help but think about it.

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_01] And John Cena Land is going to open. Cena Land Shanghai will open in 25 years. Is Disneyland Shanghai the only Disney outpost in China?

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_03] I don't know how many Disneylands there are. How many are there? Is there one in Japan?

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_01] I believe there's six. There's Shanghai, Hong Kong, Orlando. Well, Hong Kong is part of China. Well, now, yeah. These days. Oh, wait. No, I'm sorry. Is there a Hong Kong? There is. Hong Kong Disneyland Resort. You're right. So it's Hong Kong, Shanghai. They always build the same fucking castle, huh? No, the castles are different. Okay. You actually look very fucking ignorant right now.

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_03] Oh, they look kind of the same to me. They're different. You're saying I'm being kind of like racist towards castles? Correct. All castles look the same to me. They're castlest.

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, I guess they're different designs. But, you know, generally, it's a bunch of sort of towers. A couple that might be the same, but I think basically they're all from different movies. Like one is Sleeping Beauty's castle. One is Cinderella's castle. The next one is Abu Dhabi. Yeah. There are questions as to whether or not that will happen.

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_03] Uh-huh. This seems to be right. This is still in the sort of concept art thing.

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_01] It's an advantageous thing to announce and promise, but will it actually ever come to fruition?

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_02] How many have you been to?

[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_01] I have only been to Orlando. Disney World, they call it. Yes. California, Anaheim, Disneyland, and Disneyland Paris, previously Euro Disney.

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_00] Yes. I've been to those. I've been to Hong Kong a couple of times. I love that one. You can do it all in a day. So it's more contained. It is. It's not as sprawling. Yeah, yeah. At least when I last went, which was like 20 years ago. And I have been to the Tokyo one, but when I was like a year old, so I don't really remember it. But there was a time before the opening of Shanghai Disney where I had been to every Disney park in the world. That's why I personally object to Shanghai Disney, because I can no longer say that. It hit you where it hurts.

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_00] Now, how does it feel to get flexed on that heart?

[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_01] You know what? This is why we brought in our guest. I've never been to China and I've never been to Japan. I'd like to go to Japan very badly, not least of which because Tokyo Disney is supposed to be fucking insane.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, I really want to go for Tokyo Disney so I can experience it as an adult. Also to watch Japanese wrestling. I just realized I showed up in a Japanese wrestling t-shirt. Who are you wearing? This is the Bullet Club. Okay. They are a now defunct wrestling group of foreign heels, mostly white guys who interfere in Japanese people's matches. I couldn't possibly imagine such a thing.

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_03] Oh, interesting. All sort of Western, if not white.

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. They're like, huh. Okay. Are they in a specific league or organization?

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_00] It started out in New Japan Pro Wrestling. That's the only one I know. JPW. Yeah. That's the biggest one. And then it spread elsewhere. And this is why you have me on today. Yes, 100%. To talk about JPW. This and the parks. Yep.

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Kundun getting added to a Disney World anytime soon?

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_01] If they have a Kundun experience. What if they pulled that on them? They went, and by the way, we're adding Kundun Land to Shanghai Disney.

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_03] We're pivoting way out of, you know, playing ball. And in fact, Kundun is getting added to every Disney park. Every Disney park. We will be building a fake, you know, palace that you can go meet a guy. Yeah, right. It's the big three.

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_00] They have their own Dalai Lama too. In Zootopia? In China. Do they really? The next in line. Yeah. They have a kid, like, set aside for when the current Dalai Lama dies so they can appoint him. And so they can have their own, like, Dalai Lama.

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_03] I think there is a lot of worry over the succession of the Dalai Lama that China will try to hijack the process. Yes. Also, occasionally the current Dalai Lama likes to be like, what if it's a girl? And then we'll say things like, she could be hot. Oh, my God. And everyone's like, well. He says so much more than just that. He does say a lot of stuff. He's quite old at this point. Yeah. And people are like, uh, what do you mean by that? And he's like, I don't know. And everyone's like, okay. Like, you know.

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_03] But I believe he has codified, like, no, no, no. It should follow the same process as it always does. So the identity of that kid is a mystery to us. Well, you're not supposed to actually have the person.

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_01] Because the other one's got to die so that there can be a reincarnation. But there's like sort of, we got a hot lead. We have an idea. We have an idea. We have notions of a plan. They know what's up.

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah.

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_01] What does that kid think? Does that kid know? Or does he just like, people come visit me a lot? Maybe we can get a CCP-approved Scorsese to make a movie about it. Something, I'll say something big is happening here today on this episode. I have now officially seen every film directed by Martin Scorsese. Congratulations. This was the last one I hadn't seen.

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_03] At least, like, a fiction film. Well, we're going to fucking pop my balloon. Not to pop your balloon, but you probably haven't seen Shine a Light yet. Yet. But you will. I will. Yes. This is the last Marty movie going into this series that you had not ever seen.

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. I had not seen Age of Innocence. Crazy. I had not seen Last Temptation of Christ. That's crazy. You're crazy. You're a crazy guy. They call me Crazy Griff. And I had not seen this, which I have now corrected. Yeah. And Many Saints of Tibet. And here's what I'll say. Marty Kendoon. I liked it.

[00:10:42] [SPEAKER_03] Do you guys know what he's referencing? We had to get that out of the way early, I think.

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_00] No? I do.

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_01] The Sopranos.

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_00] I delivered my joke a little too early, like a few seconds early. I call the movie The Many Saints of Tibet. Oh, that's good. Yeah.

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_01] That's very good.

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_03] Remember that movie? No. Yeah. I guess that's a real... That's a... In the first episode of The Sopranos... Second. Second? Is it the second? Yeah. Okay, fine. Early episode of The Sopranos. Christopher shouts, Kendoon, Marty Kendoon. I liked it at Marty as he's walking. It's not actually Marty, but a guy playing Marty as he walks into a premiere or something like that.

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_01] Because that was Marty's most recent movie at the time, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. We talked about this before, right? That I went to see Many Saints of Newark in theaters and I was like, well, I've never watched The Sopranos and this is a prequel. So this is probably a good jumping in point. And the opening of the movie is Michael Imperioli voiceover going, there's my grave. I was strangled to death by Tony Soprano.

[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_03] Let me spoil the seventh season of Sopranos for you guys in case you haven't seen. That's how the series ends.

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_02] It's true. I never saw the movie, but the issue that I had with the promotion of it, though it didn't feel like it was very well promoted. No. Is that if you're from North Jersey, you say Nork. N-O-W-A-R-K. That's what they should have called it. So hearing you say it that way, it just is so grating to me. Say it again?

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_03] The Many Saints of Newark. Say it again? Newark. You really say that? That's so crazy. Nork.

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_00] You guys are nuts. We should wind the clock back and just call it Newark. Newark. Yeah.

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_03] I call it Newark. Newark. Yeah. I think that's how I say it. It's always, I know I've never thought about this before, but yeah. Newark. Do you? Sort of how it's spelled, you know, if you think about it.

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_01] When you're talking about the airport. When you're talking about the airport and you're making plans, do you say Nork or do you code switch to be understood?

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_04] I see. I never noticed you say this.

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_02] I do.

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_03] Like, do you take, you know, pride in like, you know, Newark? It's Jersey's big airport. Do I take pride in airports? Not really. Yeah. I regret making that joke. I'm sorry. No, no, no. It was good. It was really good. It was really good. We're on track. Now I'm looking up like the, like, why is it called Newark? My guess is. Oh, why is it not named after somebody you're saying? It's thought to derive from Newark on Trent, which was a city in England. There you go. Possibly referencing, you know, a sort of a new arc, you know, of the covenant or whatever.

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_02] You're not far off.

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_03] You know, in this sort of, because it was being founded by pilgrims or, you know, whoever the fuck in the 17th century.

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_01] But why isn't it like the Bruce Springsteen airport? Why didn't they name it after a person? Well.

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_03] I thought that's what you were asking.

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, the airport.

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_03] Oh, I don't know. I guess they could.

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_00] So, Griffin, I think the thing is it's located in the city of Newark and that's where they call it the Newark airport. They understand.

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_01] But I'm saying like we don't call, we call JFK, you know, JFK. It used to be called Idlewild. Well, that's fun.

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Yeah. JFK airport was called Idlewild. Yeah. And LaGuardia airport, I believe, was called something else at first. And now I'm going to look it up because I cannot let these threads go. And people love when we talk about New York. Oh, they love it. Wow. It had a really great name. Municipal Airport 2. Yeah. See? Wow. That really sizzles. Is it the number two or T-O-O? The number two. Like Chili's. Yeah.

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_03] But yeah, maybe they're, I mean, well, it's morbid to say, but maybe they're waiting for a Jersey legend, Sludges Bruce Springsteen, to pass off of this earth. Not that he's going to anytime soon. You dare. Then they could rename it after him.

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_02] Who's going to be the successor of the boss?

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_01] Whichever kid makes his guitar.

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_01] Obviously. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Like, who are other very famous, beloved New Jerseyans who could, you know?

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_01] Well, now I'm wondering, were they hoping they could name it Tony Soprano Airport and then no one knows if he dies in the last episode or not? He could still be out there. So that's the problem. It's like, it's, it's a, it's a toss up. Meadows just still parallel parking 20 years later. Yes. I get that reference. Right. You haven't seen this reference? I've watched the first three seasons. Oh, that's right. Yes. What's this podcast? This is Blank Check with Griffin & David. I'm Griffin. I'm David. It's a podcast about filmographies.

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_01] Directors who just make the same movie over and over again. Just a bunch of New York set gangster pictures and nothing but. Uh, and sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce. Baby. It's a miniseries on the films of Martin Scorsese. We're talking about his pictures. And today we're talking about Kundun. Uh, we are talking about his 1997 biographical film Kundun. His last movie to warrant protests.

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_01] That's my main memory of this movie is I remember actually seeing protests outside of theaters.

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_03] Well, I guess in that, if you're, if that's your judgment, then sure. I mean, like, I'm sure someone lobbed a protest or two at one of the later ones. Right. You know, people are always out here protesting.

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_01] Right. Pillows of the flower moon. Too long. Sure.

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_03] Um, yeah. His last kind of, I guess, right. Like sort of news making controversial film in a way. Uh, even though of course it's a, a quite gentle tone poem of a movie that, yeah, it's not, you know, it's not like, let's imagine if the Dalai Lama had a bunch of sex, you know, it's not like last temptation where it's like posing really, really kind of thorny stuff at people. It's, it's like, I'm trying to soberly tell the early life of this person, this living

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_01] famous person. And people have been getting mad at Wolf of Wall Street since the moment it came out, but it wasn't getting protests. People were paying money going to see it and then being like, well, I don't know. Right. Is that a good impression? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_03] That would, that's a good impression of the moral panic over the Wolf of Wall Street. I don't know.

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_04] I don't know about that. Yes.

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_01] Uh, I, I just, I do remember seeing one protest outside a theater for this movie in New York City. Okay. And also it came out in very few theaters. Uh, sure. So it might've been a very concentrated protest. I'm seeing here it came out in, uh.

[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_03] It was two theaters.

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_00] Two theaters, yeah. Two.

[00:16:52] [SPEAKER_03] Although it had a very solid per screen average of 36,000. I wish we could find out which theater it opened in.

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_00] That is, that is 2000 Clara and the Sun's third weekend. This is true.

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_01] It greatly outgrows Clara and the Sun. Did you see that movie?

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_00] No.

[00:17:06] Yeah.

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_03] Well, I mean, clearly nobody did given its poor box office, but, uh, no.

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_01] I do wonder if it was like a reality TV competition where if you bought a ticket for Clara and the Sun, they gave you a million dollars because you caught them. The movie didn't exist. They never made it. So, this is, uh, an episode on Condon, our guest returning to the show. For the first time in studio. Yes. For the first time seeing this giant cutout of Watto staring at me. A big life-size Watto.

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. I guess that is life-size, right?

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_03] Uh, yeah. Or is he even a little blown up? No. Well, yeah. Maybe Watto is actually not that big, but I think that's about what he's supposed to be. Seems about, right? Yeah. He's flying.

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_01] So he's at Qui-Gon eye level. Yeah. I'm trying to do the math on it, but I guess he's about little Annie sized.

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_00] You mean he's at Qui-Gon eye level in this cutout? No, I'm saying in most of the film. Okay. Okay. Because I would say Qui-Gon is more than four and a half feet tall. I would agree with that. This is him close to the ground. It is. He's about six inches to a foot off the ground.

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. So maybe he's about three and a half feet tall.

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_03] I've decided for the box office game we'll be doing when Kundun went wide. It went to 439 theaters in its third week. Because the first week is Christmas 97 and we've done that one. We've done basically every Christmas box office from the 90s and probably the 2000s at this point. I feel like.

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_01] Also, while this was a Christmas release, I mean, where are you going to put it? This Christmas Walt Disney Pictures presents. Just don't worry about it. Please don't see it.

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_03] I think by the time this film, right, was coming out, Disney was like, just put it out. Like, yeah, forget it. Like, I mean, it got four Oscar nominations. It's not. And it made, uh, certainly made more than Clara and the Sun. It made 5.6 million dollars. It's not bad for a movie starring Tibetan people about the Dalai Lama that is, you know, not

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_01] action packed. And that was barely released. It made five Claras. Yeah. It made about a black hat.

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_00] It would have come out around the same time as Titanic, right? That is correct.

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_04] Titanic.

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_03] There is some big move, not to spoil the box office game, but it is, uh, not, you know, not, uh, Griffin knows that Titanic was the movie of the moment. But Titanic made a lot of Claras.

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_01] It made a lot of Claras. Yes. It made, at the time, and this is crazy, the most Claras any movie had ever made. That's true. That's how they talk about it. I just am like, do I watch Clara and the Sun? Is that something I'm going to do with myself? Yeah, I think so. Okay.

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_02] All right.

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_01] I do a double feature of that in Love and Thunder and I fill in my Taika gaps.

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_00] Your Taika gap? That sounds freaking sublime.

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_03] That does sound like it'll be on a bit of a level that might be freaking sublime. It might be freaking sublime. It's just like, I bet you it's bad. I'm willing to believe that. But I wonder if it's just kind of like, you know, kind of bad in ordinary ways. And it's just sort of interesting that like, this was the moment where it was like, he's collapsing. It's over. He's getting a kind of public embarrassment box office wise, critically. He lashes out. Critics don't matter or whatever. But it's just like, I bet you the movie is not that bad.

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_01] I guess. I don't know. It's an interesting question. I remember them announcing that he was adapting it. Yeah. And you going like, Haika feels kind of washed, but that sort of makes sense. Right.

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_03] If he can reign some of his nonsense in, that book is good. I could, you know. And then the trailer was kind of heavy on like random. It's a little random. I was like, oh boy. Yeah. Random on a level that's freaking sublime.

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_01] Like, do you think Ishiguro was like, oh, great. You know, like. Like as David takes a sip of his giant Pepsi. Our guest today is Siddharth Adulaka. Hi. Thank you for being here.

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_00] Thank you. And really appreciate Griffin that you've called me in for, you know, the movie that takes place in South Asia. You know, the. You had to get the Indian critic again. Right. Right.

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_03] Well, Griffin.

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_00] Right, Griffin. Griffin can respond here.

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. I said we're doing Martin Scorsese. And you threw out a couple titles, including Kundun. I don't think that's relevant here.

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_00] I think it's a little bit relevant. The optics are bad regardless. The optics are bad regardless. I'll say this. The optics could have been worse. There's a lot of optics that could have gotten us.

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, sure. In hot water.

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_01] Who said I'd love to do Kundun? The optics could have been worse.

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_03] Who else wanted to do Kundun? This is what I always say with a friend. Kylian Mbappe. Oh, wait. I don't understand that. Oh, he was. Right. He got in trouble with the Chinese government. God bless him. Very recently. John Cena. Cena was circling. Cena land. No, I had a friend recently. Oh, right. Was like, you know, if you ever do Takahata. And I'm like, well, what Takahata do you like? You know, normal question. She's like, oh, only yesterday, Kaguya. I'm like, uh-huh.

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_03] And then she's like, I'd even do Pompoko. And I'm like, bad news for you. That means you're doing Pompoko. Because I bet you no one else is going to ask for that one. If you ask for the less known ones, then we're kind of like, oh, perfect. You know, people are like, oh, you're doing Marnie? I really like Goodfellas. I'm like, oh, yeah, good news. Interesting. I'll note that in my log. No guess. Yeah, we didn't do it.

[00:22:01] Yeah.

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. What films were you interested in from the oeuvre of Martin Scorsese? Apart from Kundun? Let's see. I can find the original text.

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, please do. I know I mentioned this one and Silence. I can't remember what else. But, you know, come to think of it, maybe the reason I made that connection was because I first saw Kundun around the time Silence was coming out. Investigating his prior films about faith. Yeah. Yeah. So while Griffin looks this up, I can, you know, just preempt the question about my relationship.

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_01] Well, OK, here's the thing. It was like the one specific title you threw out. I texted you saying we're overdue to get you on. And it was when it looked like we were down to Tony Scott versus Scorsese.

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_03] Oh, sure. Right.

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_01] So you said Top Gun Man on Fire. But then you said if you do the early shorts docs, which we did on Patreon, but we did that without a guess. And then you said would love to do Kundun or any of the ones from the 2010s onward, which I believe might be the best consecutive run of any director. But Kundun was the specific title you threw out.

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_03] So when we're saying 2010s, you're saying sort of Shutter Island, Hugo, Wolf, Silence, Irishman, like, or like, where were you starting this run?

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_00] Oh, I would have. I for some reason thought Shutter Island was 2009. So I would have said Hugo onward.

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_03] It was initially planned as a 09 release, then famously shoved to Valentine's Day because what screams romance? Shutter Island. I believe it came out on my birthday specifically, but we'll cover that when we get to that episode.

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_01] February 19th.

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_03] Well, that is my birthday. But, you know, it's around Valentine's Day.

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_01] It's a little closer to President's Day. So why don't you salute our President, Red Hulk? There he is. There he is. Yeah.

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_03] No, as I've already made this joke on a different podcast, I'm sure, but after the midterms, it's Blue Hulk only. It is Blue Hulk. Of course. Blue Hulk smash. We should have a President who is a Hulk, whose skin responds to the levels of socialism, I guess, in our government. But then he would be red. Yes. This is the whole problem with the Democrats being blue. The left is not blue in like Europe. Well, they're often sad, the left in this country. But you know what I mean?

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_03] Like in many a country when they do all maps, the left is usually red. The color of, you know, often the color of the left. Sure. You watch, it used to be the other way. Really? Yeah. If you watch and hey, if you want a good time, watch the 1976 presidential election being covered by Walter Cronkite, you can watch it on YouTube. Hey, don't tempt me. Exactly. And they're lighting up the map and they're lighting it up the other way. They're like, Jimmy Carter just won Texas and it goes red.

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_03] What?

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_01] Wow. Caused the switch. I don't know. I don't know. And were the donkey and the elephant flopped? No, that's always been true. Okay. But maybe it's just Republicans are so angry. So they're red. Like, yeah, I don't know. Or they knew the role was coming.

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_03] Is he canonically a Republican? Does Marvel have Democrats and Republicans? No. Do they ever say those things? No. Right?

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_01] It's not like Bucky's like, I'm elected as a Democrat. No, it's just the government cinematic universe. Remember when Bucky's a congressman, even though he shot JFK in the head with a big old gun? Craziest shit that ever happened. You've done some of the best writing about the politics of the Marvel Universe. Thank you.

[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_00] That's why I'm here to talk about Kunduna.

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_01] Exactly.

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_00] They're very overlapped things. No, I mean, Captain America was once the president of the U.S. in the comics. In the comics. But this was like the fucked up evil, not even evil, but just like very, you know, boomer Captain America.

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_03] And there's the Captain America arc where he watches essentially Nixon shoot himself. That's like an old post-Watergate Captain America arc. It's true.

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_01] I mean, look it up, guys. But I feel like they never state political parties in the movies, right? For all the government officials. No, no, no, no, no.

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_03] No, certainly not. Right?

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_01] It's just, you know, S.H.I.E.L.D. or HYDRA. Right. Yeah. I mean, Gary Shandling was Green Party. Hell, HYDRA.

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_03] Man, that shit went on so long and continues to go on, the MCU, much of which I've enjoyed, of course. Yeah, Gary Shandling was once a prominent senator.

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_01] He's been dead for years. I mean, Patrick Stewart raised this question, which is number of actors whose final project is an MCU movie. Good Redford. Redford, Shandling. Shandling. Now Patrick Stewart. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. It's a listicle I'm going to work on.

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_00] Stan Lee.

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_01] Buzzfeed, here I come. Probably Stan Lee. I think there's a good chance that Stan Lee's final acting role was in a Marvel project. A decent chance.

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, how's the MCU doing? And the DC, we're recording on the day. Of course, the DCU has entered a grand new era. There has to be a part of James Gunn that's like, thank God I do not have to just answer 40 questions. Did you see?

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_01] Is this canon? Yeah. Yeah, he did his post that's like, secretly for the last four years I have been living in hell. I hate this job. I believe it. Yeah. I believe it. Why would you like that job? There's a reason why any attempt to create a new Kevin Feige hasn't worked. Because that's just a one of one guy who seems to get off on both sides of what that job requires. And is good at both sides of it. It's a job that shouldn't exist because it's like counterintuitive impulses.

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_00] Well, clearly now we need to move James Gunn over to the dark universe. Get that train going again.

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_03] And he's like, we're going to get it going.

[00:27:25] Slow.

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_03] And we're going to have a mummy movie that's not canon happen near it. Like, he makes all the same mistakes. He's like, we're right out the gate with Frankenstein. You're like, okay, okay, that's a big one. I get it. Second movie, Fritz. Second movie, Bride of Frankenstein. Okay. And then, yeah. And then we'll do a side equal about just some goo over here. Sort of a goo movie. And then just an Abbott and Costello TV show. Right. And it turns out this other TV show that already exists is now mine. It's entering my canon, confusingly.

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_03] The Abbott and Costello TV show is a murder mystery. Yeah. And the Abbott and Costello is very sober. Yes. Leather jackets. They don't say their names for six episodes. They're desperately trying to figure out who was on first.

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_02] Right.

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_03] But the stakes are high. The season ends with them seeing first base. Yes. It's like in the distance. Who was on there? We are here to discuss Kundun, a film that I saw years ago and really appreciated and

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_03] liked and had never seen again. I own the Blu-ray, which I think is something of a brag now, right? It's hard to find. It's hard to find.

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_01] I had to import from Australia. You poor fool. I know. I got that, the Films of Faith of Martin Scorsese box set. Oh, I see. Which is a nice coupling of the trilogy of Last Temptation, Kundun, and Silence, which really do function as those three movies are so in conversation with each other and so unlike the rest of his filmography.

[00:29:04] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, it was, I believe, a piece by Bilga Biri that talked about them as a trilogy around the time that Silence came out and made me realize, okay, I really need to watch Kundun because I had seen Last Temptation and, you know, obviously wanted to see Silence. So I, you know, finished the trilogy. So that's when you watched it for the first time. I believe so. Yeah.

[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_01] It's also not digitally rentable right now.

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_03] Is that true? So is that really Disney fuckery?

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_01] Like, is it kind of like... It kind of seems like it. Like, they licensed it to Kino Lorber, but only for a short period of time. I saw some blankies already kind of wringing their hands about how they're going to watch this one.

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_03] I don't know. You know. Kundun free stream.

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_00] I had my eye on, I think, an Italian Blu-ray for the longest time, but I didn't bid on it in time that resort to piracy.

[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. It's, uh, there's a DVD. You can buy a DVD on the secondary market. You can get a pretty cheap DVD. But for, it's like 20 bucks, you know, which is... Well, for a DVD. I know. It's just a lot to pay for it. And yeah. And the Blu-ray goes for 580. I'm rich. I'm going to sell it right now. God. Truly hundreds of dollars. It is so crazy. Buy used. $580 usually ships within 10 days. Usually. How about we hurry that up?

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_03] I'm dropping, like, fucking a vacation on this. Yeah. On a Kundun Blu-ray. A family vacation. Yeah. Jesus. Or you can get it on HD DVD, the now dead format. There's an HD DVD? For $12.54, which I kind of just want to buy just as a goof. Yeah. Wait, for how much? $12.84? $12.54.

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_01] That feels worth it. But then you have to buy an HD DVD player. Or you could get the add-on for the Xbox 360. Right.

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_03] And Xbox 360s are the kinds of machines that work forever. 100%. Was HD DVD the Microsoft version? Correct. It was the Blu-ray competitor that pretty quickly failed. Their thing was they were red. Yeah. Blu-ray was blue. HD DVD. Red.

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_01] In retrospect.

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_00] You should have called it Red Ray or something.

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_01] They definitely should not have called it HD DVD. I disagree with you on this. I think that's a better name. I can't believe that Blu-ray won. Uh, I mean... It sounds like it's from the future. It does. Well, at the time, it sounded like it. I guess that's what it had going for. It was the sort of sci-fi futurism.

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_03] Yes. Yeah. I think HD DVD, you just kind of trip over your tongue a little bit saying that Blu-ray does sound silly. But, you know, yeah, futuristic. Blu-ray. Ben, what do you think? You don't care? What's the matter with you?

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_01] How did you know? Were you able to watch this film?

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_02] Yes, you did. And I feel bad about promoting this, but it is on YouTube. There's a bootleg version.

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_01] Okay. Well, look, this is... No, this is helpful to let our listeners know. Um, couldn't do it. They don't want to put that on Disney Plus?

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_03] Come on. Well, they're waiting for the reboot. Okay. This is a film that is directed by Martin Scorsese. It was his follow-up to Casino. So it's definitely... Well, it was a hit for sure, but it's definitely a tonal pivot. It... I do feel like the combo of this and bringing out the dead, which is when I'm starting to get into movies, when I'm a teenager, and obviously I know he's famous and I see Taxi Driver, you know, I see it.

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_03] But I feel like the general sentiment towards Marty was starting to swivel towards, like, could he be washed? Like, is Marty entering kind of like a bit of a wilderness? Well, yeah. And the response to Casino was very much that. It was a little muted.

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_01] He's repeating himself.

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_03] I mean, like, obviously Casino did well, but yeah, the Casino was like, okay. Kind of well-worn territory. Age of Innocence is really well-regarded now. It was... I feel like it got a sort of... It got kind of a golf-clappy reception at the time. Right? I'm not wrong. Yeah. I think a polite respect. Cape Fear got a lot of like, oh, you know, like, it's like his whole 90s. Now I feel like we sort of regard it very, very highly.

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_03] At the time, Kundun comes out, obviously makes a little impact. I just remember when Bringing Out to the Dead came out, like, some people were sort of whispering, like, yeah, you know, has his moment passed? Like, is Marty a little cooked?

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. I love that movie, to be clear. No, no, no. No, of course. But it's also just wild considering what a stretch this movie is for him, where even if you don't like it, the guy is clearly not just resting on his laurels.

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_03] Well, exactly. But I guess because this is not the sort of bravura, you know, show-offy stuff that Marty is capable of. Maybe that contributed to sort of people being like, okay. Okay, Grandpa. I don't know. I don't know. The movie got fine reviews, right? Yes, but was... You guys are looking at me like I'm crazy. Well, yes, that didn't help.

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_01] We'll get to all of that. I think I genuinely thought, I guess just from the poster, that this movie stayed at childhood the entire time. I was not aware the movie was going to cover as much territory as it did. Right, because of the post. Right, yeah.

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_03] You're sort of like, is this just about that? No, but I mean, it is still only a chunk of his life, obviously. It's basically him until he's about 20-ish. Like, whenever he fled China, I think... Well, I can look it up.

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_01] Look it up, David.

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_03] Ah, you know, he was, of course, born in 1935. And I think he fled in 1959. So yeah, mid-20s. Yeah. And there's a logic to that as an end point. It's interesting. We'll talk about the development of this movie. Like, Matheson, it was written by Melissa Matheson. And there were times when she tried to broaden the story and was sort of like, we'll have

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_03] other characters' perspectives, get more of the politics of Tibet at the time, you know. And she kept being like, it just kind of doesn't make sense. Like, you kind of need to stick with him the whole time, like, for it to be a story you can grab onto.

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_01] It's also the thing that's kind of extraordinary about this movie is that it just functions as the memories of someone at the center of an incredible life. But it feels so, it feels weirdly myopic in a good way, if that's even the right term, that it's so much from this first person perspective, because she just had insane access to him, which very few did.

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. And I think apart from like one odd shot of like, you know, Chinese soldiers advancing, I think most of it takes place just immediately around the Dalai Lama himself. And to the point that, you know, even though it is an inherently political story, obviously, a lot of the times it feels like the politics are very intentionally occurring outside the frame. Like there's a bit where he has to almost like peek his head out of a window to see what,

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_00] you know, his, his, you know, his regents and whatnot are even saying to try and figure out the situation.

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_01] What's the biggest moment in the movie? I would argue halfway through when he says like, I'm old enough. I need to know. I need to take charge. Right. More charge. But more than that, just I need to know. You need to tell me things. And they have purposefully been blocking things from him. I mean, it is just an insane thing to consider, which this movie places you in his shoes. Being told you are, you know. The most important person as a child.

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah.

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. I also, you know, The Last Emperor, which is not about the Dalai Lama, but is about the same sort of scenario of like a young child being invested with sort of unbelievable importance and dealing with that and then dealing with political upheaval. So, I guess that movie had probably, because that movie was such a smash hit, that probably helped Hollywood think like, yeah, this is a kind of movie that Americans might be interested in.

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_01] Ten years later, it still had a legacy.

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_03] I guess. Right. And obviously, the Dalai Lama is like a celebrity, if you will, in the West.

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_00] Right? Like he is. If I'm not mistaken, at the time, the Free Tibet movement and like there were a lot of concerts for Tibet. It's really taken off in the US.

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. And this comes out one year after seven years in Tibet? It comes out within a month. Yeah. Right. It's the same time. And it's just sort of this screeching moment where like China has enough sort of global geopolitical, financial, whatever influence to be like, actually cut it out.

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah.

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_03] And the studios are actually like, okay, we'll be cowards. Don't worry. We will never touch this ever again. I've never seen seven years in Tibet. Neither have I. Because nobody really liked it. Yeah. It was one of those things where like, damn, you made all this fuss.

[00:37:38] [SPEAKER_01] Nobody even liked your movie. I feel like that movie's legacy is this is exactly what Brad Pitt shouldn't be doing as an actor. But it was.

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_03] You're right.

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_01] It was really the hot. It was a bit of a hot cause celebrity for celebrity. Yes.

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Yeah. Richard Gere.

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_01] Big time.

[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_01] I mean, he contends that basically his support of Tibet stopped him from being hired in studio films for 25 years.

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_03] He gets pushed out of being kind of an A-list guy.

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. But then he did razzle dazzle. He did, but he had to go over to the couple dastardly brothers to get that. Oh, that's true. Off the ground. Yes.

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_03] Kundun, I guess I'll open the dossier unless. So now do you have any other sort of initial memories? But yeah, you saw it in prep for silence. You liked it.

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_00] I did quite a bit. I mean, you know, I have my issues with it as I'm sure we all do, but I think ultimately manages to overcome most of its flaws. And then I also, I think last year at SVA managed to watch it on 35 millimeter. Oh, that's cool.

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_03] Was there, was there like a Q and A or anything like that?

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_00] Or was it just like, I don't recall because I had to leave just as it ended. Sure. I believe there was a Tibetan cultural organization involved. And I think. Yeah, it was part of Tribeca. I'm seeing this year. It was 2025. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was Tribeca.

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_03] And I think Scorsese was there for the screening. He was there. Yeah. And I'm sure he got up and said like, you know, this is nice.

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_01] But I don't think he did like a formal. Right. I would love to see this in a theater because I will say like Deakins and Philip Glass kind of automatically get this movie to five out of 10. Oh, yeah. Just as a starting point. To hear and see this movie projected properly must be incredible.

[00:39:18] [SPEAKER_03] It's fascinating. It's his only collaboration with either of them, right? Yeah. And I love this score and I listen to it all the time. It's incredible. Philip Glass is good writing music. So I listen to a lot of Philip Glass. But yeah, this is a great score by him. It's gorgeous. I would love to see it on a big screen. I bet it rocks on a big screen. It really did. Yeah.

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_02] So quickly. Yes. Before you open the dossier to the Richard Gere conversation, because I needed to double check this first. Stephen Segal, practitioner of Tibetan Buddhism. Of course.

[00:39:50] [SPEAKER_03] And of the mystic arts, I would say.

[00:39:52] [SPEAKER_02] He, of course, in 1997 was recognized as a Tolku, a reincarnated lama. Now there was some... By whomst? The supreme head of a Tibetan school. Oh, a Tibetan school. Okay.

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_03] Okay. There was some controversy.

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_02] There was some talk that maybe there was some, you know, bribery involved. But I think, I wonder if maybe this is also affected his career. Interesting.

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_01] In a negative way. There's no other explanation. No, I know. It couldn't be anything else. Wasn't he also named like Grand Wizard of Russia? I think so.

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_03] I think he was like, you know, like honorary bear of Russia. He has been given the order of friendship by Vladimir Putin. But I'm sure that wasn't like recently. I'm sure that was, oh, 2023. Oh, good. Interesting.

[00:40:47] [SPEAKER_00] He was named Stephen Segal by Daigo Aditi.

[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_03] And that was a level of riffing. What level would we say? Would we say that it was sort of a sublime level?

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_01] It was freaking sublime. It was a freaking sublime level.

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_03] I don't know if you can use language like that in EPK. It's just going to be out there, Griffin.

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_01] Freaking? It's great. I mean, now Sean Levy says fucking at press events. He does? It's incredible.

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_03] My God.

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_01] The Canadians have been beaten out of him. He buffers before he says it. Like he knows what he's about to do. He's going to send shockwaves throughout the culture. As Deadpool would say, let's fucking go.

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, Segal. Well, I'm glad we took that little tangent. And now let's open the dossier. No, now we're stuck in Segal. I just have to shout out, of course, that in 2005, Steven Segal did launch an energy drink called Lightning Vault. Of course. And there were two flavors, Cherry Charge and my favorite, Asian Experience. Oh, this is what Griffin is trying to make this podcast by inviting me.

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_03] I remember that because it was a bit that Joel McHale would do on the soup all the time. Because I think that was around when Segal had one of those like reality shows where he was like, I'm a sheriff. Yeah, correct.

[00:41:53] [SPEAKER_01] And he would throw people up against the wall. Justice or whatever it was called.

[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_03] Right. And so occasionally McHale would go like, oh, interesting, Quentin, your thirst. And then they would have the can float in on a string and they would play, you know, music and he'd be like, ah, Asian Experience flavor, my favorite. Asian Experience.

[00:42:12] [SPEAKER_02] Just imagine Segal was like, we need two flavors. I like cherry. The other one should be, I don't know, Asian.

[00:42:18] [SPEAKER_01] You know, like what was that? What was that conversation? I'm going to look into it while you crack open the dossier.

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_03] So, Melissa Matheson wrote The Black Stanley, wrote a little picture called E.T., The Extraterrestrial. Was married to a little fella called Harrison Ford for many years.

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_01] Quite tall, actually. Yeah. He's tall guy. Yeah. Wrote one other movie that we covered on this podcast, but posthumously for her. Which was what? B-F-J. I had to do it. I'm sorry. No, it's fine. You got any more? Nope, that's it.

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_03] Fuzzy, scrabbles. Have you seen Artificial yet? Oh, yeah. Rylance fucking crushes an ass. Really? He does. He really does. He's so good. And it was a little bit like, because there was a lot of Rylance for a bit there. Yeah. And then we, they pulled him out of the ecosystem. And we haven't been having much Rylance. And it was really nice to see him again in sort of like, oh, I don't know mode. You know, like that mode. Does he play a BFC?

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_01] Big friendly coder? He actually does.

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, basically.

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_00] And we're in for a second, Rylance's sons. I can't wait.

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_03] I think so. I think there's a bunch more like troubled mentors for him to be. Yeah. Yeah. He plays the guy who basically invented AI. And then all the AI guys start doing stuff. And he's like, oh boy.

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_01] Like, I don't know if I was thinking this was the plan. David. I don't think he says it that clearly. Oh dear.

[00:43:43] [SPEAKER_03] It's actually a wonderful performance. And a very lovely and humanistic performance after the last performance he gave for Luca Guadagnino,

[00:43:50] [SPEAKER_01] where he played the scariest guy in the world. The monster Sully.

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_03] The bony tail cannibal. That was a fucked up performance, man. Remember that shit? Yeah. That Bones and All was a little bit of a, you're kidding.

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_01] And I'm like, no, no, this is a real movie. We put it out. Cannibals. I've seen it. And I was arguing now is the perfect time for Ben specifically to watch Bones and All. Yeah.

[00:44:10] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. All right. I'm going to do it.

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Top of the list.

[00:44:12] [SPEAKER_03] And I'll report back. Please do. Melissa Matheson has a burgeoning interest in the 14th Dalai Lama, Tenzin Gyatso, I believe is his name, because she's just sort of interested in his life and what an extraordinary person he is. She says, I wasn't initially like interested in Buddhism. I was just fascinated by the story, as Griffin is sort of saying, of like a child being, you

[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_03] know, discovered and groomed to take over a country and then, you know, going through this political change. She's obviously written children's films and initially is like, I think I'd like to write a movie about him as a sort of children's movie. And then almost immediately it's like, oh, I can't like that. These themes are just too complicated to actually distill for a young audience. But then as she's researching, she gets more into Buddhism, I think. Then eventually reaches out to him and is like, I want to make a movie.

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_03] I guess she's sort of just like, I wrote E.T. And just sends a letter to his holiness being like, I kind of want to do a movie with you. And they're like, yeah, well, he'll be in California soon if you want to meet with him. This is why it's what you were saying, though. He was kind of a Hollywood figure in the 90s. Yeah, I guess so. He was going on talk shows and stuff. So she meets him in person. She says he's actually quite funny in person. Harrison Ford was with her. I guess that helps, too. I'll bring Harrison. Hopefully he was taking his pills.

[00:45:40] [SPEAKER_03] We don't want the Red Hulk smashing the Dalai Lama. That would cause an international incident. And she explains, I want to write a biography. I want to cover these stages of your life. And he's like, that sounds interesting. Go ahead and try. Like, you know, I don't think he's like, I want 15 points on the back end. He's sort of like, but he grants sort of like tacit approval.

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_01] But he also is like, I'll share stories with you. Yeah. No, eventually that's what starts happening. Is the perspective of his memories.

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_03] Oddly enough, in my opinion, her first choice to direct it is Martin Scorsese. And it's because she identifies his fascination with the spiritual and faith. But I will, I do think that that is, you know, a surprising decision by her.

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_00] At what point was this? At what point was she considering? And was it pre or post Last Temptation? It's post Last Temptation. Okay. Yeah. That makes a little more sense. But also for how much trouble that movie had caused.

[00:46:34] [SPEAKER_03] And she knew he had like studied for priesthood.

[00:46:36] [SPEAKER_00] Yes.

[00:46:37] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. I don't think she's even thinking about that though. Yeah.

[00:46:39] [SPEAKER_01] Like, you know what I mean? Like. She's picking the best filmmaker.

[00:46:43] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, he's sort of, it's the early 90s. Jay Maloney is his agent at the time at CAA and just gets sent the script. And Marty's like, you know, it's pretty rare for me to like, one, be on Hollywood's agenda in a way and to sort of get sent a script from outside. Obviously, he knows who she is. And I think he'd met with her briefly because she was going to adapt A Winter's Tale, the Mark Halperin book for him when he wanted to do that.

[00:47:12] [SPEAKER_01] Being the Akiva Goldsman movie that was perfected.

[00:47:15] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Right. Akiva Goldsman, of course, if you know this film with Colin Farrell and William Smith. Will Smith. Yes. Isn't it?

[00:47:23] [SPEAKER_00] It sort of rings a bell. It was a movie that came out like 25 years. Wait, wait, wait. Is this the one where Will Smith has like, he unhinges his jaw and has really sharp teeth? Correct. I'm pretty sure I've seen it.

[00:47:35] [SPEAKER_03] Yes. It was one of those things that when it came out, everyone was like, excuse me, what the fuck is this? And they had to like, it was like, well, you don't understand. This was a bestseller in the 80s. And it's like, well, it ain't the 80s anymore. He plays Satan in it.

[00:47:48] [SPEAKER_00] This is going to bother me for so long. Which band's t-shirt was Will Smith wearing during that movie?

[00:47:53] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, great question. We'll just find out. Were you trying to pull the name of the lead actress from that movie?

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_03] I was. It's the girl from Downton Abbey, right?

[00:48:02] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. A girl from Downton Abbey. A woman from Downton Abbey whose name is, it's a three-part name. Go ahead. No, I'm trying to remember. Oh, I think, let me find it.

[00:48:12] [SPEAKER_03] Jessica Brown Findlay. There we go. She never really amounted to much. No offense to her.

[00:48:18] [SPEAKER_01] I think that movie kind of squashed her career. Yeah.

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_03] And Will Smith basically plays, I think, like the devil in it. Right? I believe so. It's like a one scene performance.

[00:48:30] [SPEAKER_01] Wait, Russell Crowe? Yeah. Russell Crowe plays a bearded man who's like, I don't like what's going on here. He plays like a New York top.

[00:48:37] [SPEAKER_03] Jeff is wearing, oh, this is fucking me up because he's got a blazer on, but it's clearly over a t-shirt. I'm trying to identify what the t-shirt is. Okay. Well, I think I got to watch this movie. I think I just got to watch it. Have neither of us ever seen it? Why would no one saw this film? It only got seen later because it was so weird. I'm a Colin Farrell fan. You're a super fan. And I, you know, sort of, yeah, here he does. He's unhinging his jaw or whatever. And he's got big vampire scenes.

[00:49:07] [SPEAKER_03] Sort of mummy style, yeah.

[00:49:08] [SPEAKER_00] This was the, not the same year, but the era of collateral beauty, right?

[00:49:14] [SPEAKER_03] It's a sort of similar time. Bad, bad time for Will.

[00:49:16] [SPEAKER_00] I just can't tell what this band t-shirt is. Yeah, I remember fixating on it at the time for some reason.

[00:49:23] [SPEAKER_03] We're going to solve this at some point.

[00:49:24] [SPEAKER_00] He's sort of playing the Fresh Prince of Darkness, if you will.

[00:49:29] [SPEAKER_03] Well, we'll joke about him. The opposite of the Dalai Lama. Yes. So they had met on that. And so they knew each other briefly. Scorsese is like, I am very interested in the Dalai Lama. He's an ideal to all of us around the world as a person who emphasizes the spiritual. Great quote, Marnie. And he had long wanted to do like movies about the lives of the saints, which he eventually

[00:49:59] [SPEAKER_03] produced that series that was called like Martin Scorsese presents the saints that was on like Fox Nation. Which I have on Blu-ray.

[00:50:05] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, good for you. That was an overly ambitious purchase for me at the beginning of this miniseries being like, I'm going to go that deep. It's so great that you can buy that on Blu-ray and not Kundun. Yes. I did, in fact, have to import that from Australia as well. I saved on shipping by getting both at the same time. But can you? You can get that here too, though, right? I don't. I think you can stream it. Okay. Okay. Possibly if you have a Fox Nation subscription. Which I do.

[00:50:29] [SPEAKER_00] And obviously we do. We all do. Yeah.

[00:50:33] [SPEAKER_03] And so he loves movies like Maurice Clochet's Monsieur Vincent about St. Vincent de Paul. He loves Rossellini's Flowers of St. Francis. He likes movies about saints. And he's like, this is kind of along those lines a little bit. You know, and he's sort of like, you know, our modern saints, it's like Dalai Lama, Gandhi, Martin Luther King, people who stood on the line, you know, and for passive resistance and

[00:50:59] [SPEAKER_03] got hit for it, he says is an interesting way to put it, you know, and he's just interested in like the notion of priesthood, right? How it changes you as a person. He also is like, I made two really violent movies in a row. I mean, Age of Innocence in between. But he's like, he says like, yeah, I know his most violent movie, blah, blah, blah. It's what he loves to say. But he's like, I like the idea of doing something that's the opposite of the material in Casino and Cape Fear.

[00:51:23] [SPEAKER_03] Um, so, so Matheson had started maybe getting interested in like 1989. Uh, they send in the script. He, he goes to meet with the Dalai Lama in 93.

[00:51:37] [SPEAKER_01] And Last Temptation's 87.

[00:51:39] [SPEAKER_05] Mm-hmm.

[00:51:39] [SPEAKER_01] So she's identifying him when it's pretty fresh.

[00:51:43] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Yeah. So the, the script is basically, he says ready by about 93. He does Casino. It's part of his deal with Universal. Uh, the Dalai Lama was somewhat disappointed, but said he understood. Hilarious to imagine having to explain to him like, hey, I owe, I owe Universal a picture and they want to make this Casino movie.

[00:52:04] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. But that goes back to Last Temptation as well. He owed them commercial movies. Yes. Because they were willing to put up the money for Last Temptation.

[00:52:11] [SPEAKER_00] I have to wonder if the Dalai Lama has seen Casino.

[00:52:13] [SPEAKER_03] I do too. I don't know. Does the Dalai Lama watch a lot of, you know, R-rated movies? I don't know. Does he watch a lot of Scorsese movies? No.

[00:52:22] [SPEAKER_01] Great question.

[00:52:22] [SPEAKER_03] Right. Oh, well, here's a funny quote. In fact, they wondered which of the film, which of Marty's films they should show him. I don't think they came up with anything, but some of the people around him had seen Last Temptation. Okay.

[00:52:33] [SPEAKER_00] Okay.

[00:52:34] [SPEAKER_01] Uh, by the way, it's a Jimi Hendrix t-shirt. It is. It's a big photo of Jimi Hendrix's face. Yes. Even though the movie's supposed to take place in 1916.

[00:52:42] [SPEAKER_03] That's right. Is that true? That's why it was so strange. But he lives in all times. Because he's the Fresh Prince of Darkness. Satan is ever present. Yes. Um, yes. Okay. They did a bunch of drafts. They, as I said, they kind of narrowed to one point of view. They would try to bring more elements in, such as like the death of the 13th Dalai Lama, the prior Dalai Lama. That was a starting point of the movie at one point. And he's like, the more I added, the more questions got raised. The original script idea, which is like, you see everything through this young boy's eyes

[00:53:12] [SPEAKER_03] as he grows. That was what we had to do. Which I think is a great idea. Yeah. And so, yeah, as he puts it, we had to go back to the end from the beginning. And there's a whole journey. Uh, the essence of the film is atmosphere, emotion, spirituality. The politics are in the people. It's the way they move and the way they behave and how they relate to Mao. I wasn't interested in making a political history of Tibet. I wasn't interested in the political intrigue.

[00:53:37] [SPEAKER_03] Now, I would say, and he says this here, the Dalai Lama is a passive character. So that is a tough character to build your movie around. Like, yes, he eventually starts to exert a little bit more control in the film, but it is certainly not like a conventional kind of Hollywood movie in that way, right? Like you're centering it on this character who is often very passive. It's a non-action film, Melissa Matheson puts it. Um, it's quite rousing, but it's about non-violence, obviously.

[00:54:05] [SPEAKER_03] And, uh, Scorsese's like, when the Chinese invade, there is traditional drama, but there's not really an antagonist. I mean, maybe it's Mao. He appears, but I'm more just creating a world and then we undo the world. And I do think that's what the movie, it's like, you know, it's about like, you know, some hope for serenity and then just being disrupted, like slowly and then more and more. That's what's powerful about it.

[00:54:32] [SPEAKER_03] It's not going to make, look, you know, it's not going to make a hundred Clara and the Suns, okay?

[00:54:39] [SPEAKER_01] Um, But it did cost like 28 Clara and the Suns. It costs money. It costs money to mount. Yeah.

[00:54:45] [SPEAKER_03] By the 90s, he's been a universal man for a while. Passion of the Christ. Passion of the Christ. Come on, JJ. Fired. Did he write Passion of the Christ? Straight up? Yeah. No bits fired. Uh, Cape Fear and Casino. Temptation of Christ, Cape Fear and Casino. Those are all universal movies. Universal is not interested in Kundun. The new head of Universal was Ron Meyer. And he was, you know, whatever. He was like, whatever. I'm not interested. So, Ovitz.

[00:55:11] [SPEAKER_01] I think also was like, that could be touchy. Sure. Is it worthwhile?

[00:55:15] [SPEAKER_03] Yes. Ovitz is moving over to Disney. Mike Ovitz, who had been Ron Meyer's partner. Uh, and so they slip Kundun in, is how he puts it. Uh, Joe Roth, who works at, who's in charge of Disney at that point? Or is he?

[00:55:32] [SPEAKER_01] Uh, yes, he would have been. Yes, because it's, uh. It's like 96 or whatever. Roth replaces Ovitz. Ovitz got it into Disney. Right. And then Roth lets it stay.

[00:55:42] [SPEAKER_03] And so Roth's like, yeah, what kind of picture will this be? And he's like, I'm making like a European style film like The Flowers of St. Francis. And Joe Roth's like, I'm seeing this for Touchstone. But they greenlight the movie. I mean, like they made the fucking movie. Yes. Uh, and of course, what's the first thing to decide on? The cast should be entirely Tibetan. Yes, they have the concession of like the, it'll be in English. Yeah. Which I was surprised by. It was not a thing I knew about this film. They just didn't do that back then. Yes.

[00:56:09] [SPEAKER_03] You know, the further thing of like, and it's going to be a completely subtitled movie. Like they just didn't do that. Like, are there any examples of Western movies doing that? At the time? Like there's barely any now, obviously. I just remember it was such a big deal when Lost had the Jin and Son episodes play out in Korean. Yeah. Which I believe, granted, is very broken Korean. I don't think either one of them speaks Korean. No, she does. He does. Okay. Okay. He speaks horrible Korean or his accent's terrible.

[00:56:38] [SPEAKER_03] And I think, right, it's laughable for Korean people. But besides the point. Yeah. But no, but I'm great. I remember it was seen as a gamble. It's like, oh, it's like, it's going to be all subtitles. Are you sure? You know, and whatever. Work.

[00:56:50] [SPEAKER_00] Even when like Inglourious Basterds came out. Right. Maybe like 40% subtitle. Right. I think that was a big deal. That feels like a groundbreaking movie.

[00:56:56] [SPEAKER_01] And it's in like three different languages. Yeah.

[00:57:00] [SPEAKER_03] So they have this initial immediate problem of like, okay, well, we need Tibetan actors. That means you have to find Tibetans in exile. Many of them don't have passports. Oh, that's a good point. Or like their work visa situations are very complicated. So they had to sort of create a Tibetan community against all odds outside Tibet. Ellen Lewis, who's the casting director, mostly obviously is in India where I feel like many Tibetans live in exile. Goes to London, goes to San Francisco. No one's a professional actor.

[00:57:28] [SPEAKER_00] Many of them are like, you couldn't possibly tell that from the movie.

[00:57:31] [SPEAKER_01] I know. Incredible performance. You truly are. It's. Yes.

[00:57:34] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:57:35] [SPEAKER_01] Right.

[00:57:35] [SPEAKER_00] I mean, Ellen Lewis is a genuine genius. Yeah. I'm sorry. I was, I was joking. I think the performances in this movie are quite bad. Really? I love the movie. But yeah. I like the performances. The performances.

[00:57:45] [SPEAKER_01] They all, I mean, look, they harmonize with each other. That's fair. Everyone is at a similar register. You adjust to what that is.

[00:57:51] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. I think we will get to it. I do think there's some of it that works in context, but I was just being a bit snarky there.

[00:57:57] [SPEAKER_03] I think the children are particularly good. Yes. Yes. Most of them are teachers, doctors. Tensho Gyalpo, who plays the Dalai Lama's mother, is actually his niece. The Lord Chamberlain, I guess, of Tibet in exile, had worked in commercials. Or maybe no, sorry. Sorry. Just the guy playing the Lord Chamberlain. Right. Had worked in commercials. He's fantastic. Yes.

[00:58:26] [SPEAKER_03] They worked, of course, as he says, basically as a united front. If they had disagreements among themselves, they would work it out off set. Like Melissa would sort of discuss dialogue changes with them kind of as a group. Things like that. There are many languages spoken on set. He says French, Italian, Arabic, Berber, Tibetan English. But we figured we had to make it in English to give it some chance of being seen in the West, if only for a few weeks in 10 theaters, thanks to my name being on it.

[00:58:54] [SPEAKER_03] If we'd gone for Tibetan with English subtitles, no one would have seen it. I think that's probably true. Yeah. I mean, I don't, you know. In 1997? Yes. The budget is about $26 million, which is relatively cheap for him at the time. It is about average, I would say, for a Hollywood movie back then. But obviously, this is an impressively scaled movie for that price. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Shot in Morocco, which is where he shot Last Temptation of Christ, brings in Deakins. Now, where's Deakins?

[00:59:23] [SPEAKER_03] I guess he's like, he's coming off of like Fargo. He's done the first three Coens. Yeah. Yeah. Is this his direct follow-up to Fargo? And Courage Under Fire. Oh, of course. Let's not forget that he crisply lensed Courage Under Fire for Edzwick. Uh-huh. Is that the only time we worked with Edzwick? No, because he shot, didn't he shoot? He shot The Siege. It's crazy. I mean, look, obviously, Deakins is a work-a-day cinematographer. It's not like, you know, but it is funny, given how... Elevated he has become.

[00:59:53] [SPEAKER_03] Right. In the 2010s, Deakins became such a name, you know, onto himself that you're like, don't forget that he shot The Siege. Yes. Uh, yeah. He, you know, he's coming off of like some Coens movies, Shawshank, Dead Man Walking. Like, he's a pretty big deal.

[01:00:11] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. I mean, Fargo, Dead Man Walking, Shawshank are kind of like three big announcement movies for him of like, this is the best cinematographer on the rise right now.

[01:00:22] [SPEAKER_03] They, yes. They used this place called Atlas Film Studio, which had been built in Morocco when the Living Daylights shot there in the late 80s. Okay. But Deakins says like, it was pretty stripped down and like, we were kind of finding locations up to the minute. You know, like it was, it was a lot. They do all their interiors in this big studio. Um, Dante Ferretti, the great PD production designer who works with Scorsese a lot.

[01:00:48] [SPEAKER_03] You know, they're building these giant stages, the throne room, the monastery, uh, obviously the Patala Palace. And they say, you know, Morocco, your money went a long way. So like, that's how they did it basically. Cause they were like, it was a really, we didn't have a lot of money, but we would build these giant sets and we'd figure it out. Um, blah, blah, blah. Oh, you're really firing JJ today. No, it's fine. He just, sometimes he puts in a lot of info and I'm like, you know, I'm trying to not just

[01:01:16] [SPEAKER_00] talk your ears off all day. Also, I don't know if you mentioned this, but in addition to the actress playing the mother, uh, the actor who plays the oldest Dalai Lama. The sort of main actor, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He is also, he was also related. Related to him. Right. He's a grandnephew of the Dalai Lama.

[01:01:32] [SPEAKER_03] Now, so the Dalai Lama, so that means, cause he doesn't have a wife and children. No. Cause to his relatives. Yeah. Right. Yeah. He's got siblings. Yeah. You've seen the film. Yeah. No, I understand. I just, I was trying to just ask a very respectful question about the Dalai Lama's sexuality and sex life. Okay. It was just triple checking something. I didn't want to, you know, sound like I was putting on any kind of airs about what he gets up to. Sure.

[01:02:01] [SPEAKER_03] I was like, he ain't fucking right. Yes.

[01:02:04] [SPEAKER_00] Can I make a semi-relevant interjection? Of course. Please. Just going back to like the origins of like Scorsese being involved in the project. So he, Scorsese had first heard of and found an interest in Tibet through this 1950s movie called Storm Over Tibet. And do you know the name of the lead character in that movie? No, I do not. Do you want to look it up?

[01:02:28] [SPEAKER_03] Let's find out. Storm Over Tibet. So this is a 1952 film. Steven Seagal. Wow. Rex Reason is the actor and he is of course playing a character called David Sims. Well, well, well. With two M's. I only have the one, but that is the more typical spelling of my last name. American David Sims comes down a mountain before collapsing in a village. As he recovers, a flashback ensues. Have you seen this film? I have not. How did they know what you were going to do in your life?

[01:02:56] [SPEAKER_03] How did they know that I love mountain climbing? Yes. And being a pilot. Yeah, right. Get me on one of them planes and definitely let's fly it in one of the places where it's tough to fly a plane.

[01:03:06] [SPEAKER_01] One of your only complaints about commercial airfare is that you don't get to fly the plane yourself. Put me in charge. Yes.

[01:03:13] [SPEAKER_03] We'll push the buttons. I'm scared of flying. Oh. I do do it sometimes. Well, it's been a while. It's been a while. Well, unsurprisingly, Marty prepared quite extensively for how the film would look as he usually does. Deakins liked that a lot. Lots of sketches. Sometimes some practical realities would, you know, would mean you couldn't quite achieve the precise shot Marty wanted. But I think I think Deakins kind of dug it.

[01:03:40] [SPEAKER_03] He liked the, you know, he liked the collaboration says wider lens. He used a wider lens that Marty imagined kind of Coen Z of him. And it was shot on super 35, which gives you a bit of a larger frame. Deakins. I shot Air America in super 35. It's another movie.

[01:04:00] [SPEAKER_01] You shot Air America. Yeah.

[01:04:02] [SPEAKER_03] And he's like, technically, it's pretty good. You lose some color intensity. You know, look, listen to Roger Deakins podcast for to listen to him talk about this shit all day. It's always wonderful. It's beautiful. Uh, listening to Deakins talk lenses. He calls it, he thinks it's Scorsese's best film. Now it is the only one he worked on, but he says, I love the symmetry of it and the poetry of it. Um, so he's very fond of it. Uh, Marty's mother, while he's making the film is dying. Film is dedicated to her.

[01:04:32] [SPEAKER_03] She held on until after production. Um, they wrapped like basically around Christmas and she died on January 6th. Wait a second. Oh boy. A little bit clean. Uh, a little too tight an alibi.

[01:04:46] [SPEAKER_00] Marty says, almost as if she's been waiting. It's so interesting now to look back. I didn't know that she died curing production. I thought it was sometime like, right off. Right off. Sorry. I wasn't clear on the timeline. Um, it's now interesting to go back and think about just so many shots of the Dalai Lama's mother just being ill during the movie in a way that doesn't end up like paying off per se, but let's see where his head was at.

[01:05:11] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. He says, I dedicated the film to my mother because the unconditional love she represented to me in my own life connected with the idea of the Dalai Lama having compassionate love for all sentient beings. He's obviously really interested in the sand painting, which is a big part of the movie. I feel like, you know, the visuals of the movie and he likes, uh, Renoir's The River, which you remember seeing with his dad when he was a little kid. Um, which is a very interesting movie. It's a fair, have you seen The River? I have not. You know, have you seen The River?

[01:05:41] [SPEAKER_03] I've seen The River. You know, obviously it has, it's a Westerner making a movie about India in the 1950s. It has a sort of remove to it. That's a little dated, but it's a gorgeous looking movie.

[01:05:54] [SPEAKER_01] The color palette of this film feels very indebted to that.

[01:05:57] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. And I think for a lot of Western viewers, probably an early look, you know, some of these sort of, uh, I mean, obviously like, um, the Sechidit Wright movies are probably coming over in the 50s. I forget exactly like how quickly they were seen in the West, but right? Like there's not a lot of movies coming from India to America in that time. Yeah. But he, of course he shouts those out. Um, the Apu trilogy, The Music Room, that's his favorite. Uh, of his films.

[01:06:25] [SPEAKER_03] Um, and oh my God, this dossier is too long enough. I'm moving on. He loves the Dalai Lama guys. All right. He thinks it's really interesting. Um, let's talk. Oh, and then Philip Glass. Mishima had, he was so, he admired that score so much. That's obviously made by his friend, Paul Schrader. Uh, and he loved Kareyannis Katsi. Funny to imagine Marty watching Kareyannis Katsi. Uh, I mean, of course he watches everything. But I know just him being like, wow.

[01:06:52] [SPEAKER_00] I would say this is maybe the one movie that. Skowlo Kareyannis Katsi. That feels indebted to Kareyannis Katsi.

[01:06:59] [SPEAKER_01] Yes.

[01:06:59] [SPEAKER_03] Especially this, you know, this sort of meditative imagery, like the sand art, you know? Yeah. And so, uh, Philip works very close with them. Maybe more so than an unusual composer will. And, um, yeah. There's a documentary called In Search of Kundun. It's on the Blu-ray. I have not watched it. Yeah. Um, but, uh, they sort of make it, it, it, while they're, you know, making the movie. That, which I think might be the first time someone's done that with Marty. I think so.

[01:07:29] [SPEAKER_03] Sort of like a more complicated. Yeah. I can't think of an earlier one. EPK. Yeah. Um, yeah. We'll feature length. We, yeah, it's like 75 minutes long. Yeah. We can talk about the controversy later. Okay. Right? Yeah. We can talk about the film now. Mm-hmm.

[01:07:55] [SPEAKER_01] It starts, like, several years into a search for the 14th Dalai Lama and the notion that they might have found one. And then we meet one bossy little kid. Yeah, I guess.

[01:08:09] [SPEAKER_00] He's adorable.

[01:08:10] [SPEAKER_01] He's really cute. But I just like that immediately, if I can say this, he's like a bit of a little stinker. He wants to sit at the head of the table. He wants all the toys for himself.

[01:08:20] [SPEAKER_00] He knows what's his. He knows what's his. And that is, of course, you know, Marty shamelessly ripping off Avatar the Lost Eyebender, but we'll forgive him.

[01:08:29] Yeah.

[01:08:29] [SPEAKER_00] I love Avatar. It's a cartoon.

[01:08:32] [SPEAKER_02] There's four types. There's air, water, earth.

[01:08:36] [SPEAKER_01] There's no war in Ba Sing Se, they say. We've already established a bit that Marty loves Pokemon. Oh, wow. Gotta catch them all. And let's explain Pokemon to people. You gotta catch them all. You simply must. They keep adding them. You gotta catch them all, though. I wish I could do Marty. Then I could just do bits like this all day. They released two games at the same time in parallel. Started out being colors. Great difference. Starts being gems, rocks.

[01:08:57] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, they do rocks pretty quickly. Crecious metals. Yeah. And then they just did sun and moon and then they lazily just did X and Y. Jesus. Phoned it in on that one. What's the latest ones? Ruben? No. Diamond? No. Fuck. I forget. Do you play Pokemon?

[01:09:12] [SPEAKER_00] I haven't in a very long time. Not since maybe the third generation. And now they're on like 18 probably. I don't know.

[01:09:20] [SPEAKER_02] Right. You know.

[01:09:20] [SPEAKER_00] I guess you're not cool. You playing the Ocarina remake? Legends Z to A. We're going backwards now. No, Zelda was not particularly big back home, so I'm afraid not.

[01:09:29] Hmm.

[01:09:29] [SPEAKER_03] I wonder why.

[01:09:30] [SPEAKER_00] Was Nintendo not like... Um, it wasn't. I remember Pokemon becoming big. Not even big, really. But like Pokemon is so global in a way that almost nothing else is. It started coming through like, you know, a lot of kids in my school had either visited the US or UK or had relatives there. That's how we ended up hearing. But it wasn't like a direct infiltration, so to speak. And where is home specifically? Mumbai. Mumbai. Yeah.

[01:09:58] [SPEAKER_03] Um, yes. Do you have any... Yeah. What... Do you have any relationship to Tibetan Buddhism or the Dalai Lama?

[01:10:04] [SPEAKER_00] Like, you know... So, an awareness of Buddhism in general, Tibetan Buddhism specifically because, you know, the Dalai Lama, like you said, he's a celebrity. He's been based in India for longer than I've been alive. Right. Since basically the early 60s. Yeah. Dharamshala, where he is, is still considered somewhat of a holy-ish destination. Now, a lot of people travel there for the Dharamshala Film Festival or the really big cricket stadium that's built there. Okay.

[01:10:32] [SPEAKER_00] Um, so maybe the Dalai Lama likes cricket. Who knows?

[01:10:35] [SPEAKER_02] Is it a contested region?

[01:10:37] [SPEAKER_00] Well, it's right at the top. No, yeah. I mean, yeah. But right.

[01:10:41] [SPEAKER_03] It's quite near the Tibetan border, right? The Dharamshala.

[01:10:43] [SPEAKER_00] It is. Yeah. Yeah. I would have to look at a map to be sure. But no, I don't think this...

[01:10:47] [SPEAKER_02] Like, Kashmir, I believe, is just north then.

[01:10:49] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, Dharamshala is not in Kashmir as far as I'm aware.

[01:10:54] [SPEAKER_03] But I am excited to Google this giant cricket stadium if you give me one second. Is it like a particularly impressive one? Like, it's like newer or something? It's got the mountains in the background.

[01:11:05] [SPEAKER_00] That's kind of cool. It's newer. I haven't been there. My parents have been there a few times to watch matches. Hosted five matches at the World Cup. There we go.

[01:11:14] [SPEAKER_03] Including New Zealand versus India. Hey. Oh, apparently it has a bad outfield. Players don't like that. Are there angels there? What's the problem? That's cool. But yeah. So, you're aware. He's around. He's in the... He's in the... You know, whatever.

[01:11:31] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. And because, you know, Buddhism has its roots in Hinduism in South Asia, you tend to... You learn a bit about it in school in a historical sense. And also, there is just a general, like, you know, cultural awareness of it. It's in your peripheries. And I can give you, like, one small example. The Last Jedi has this one scene where it cuts to...

[01:11:56] [SPEAKER_00] When you realize, okay, Luke Skywalker is, like, projecting his image across the universe, whatever it is. It cuts to this image of him sitting with his legs folded and he's floating. And I've asked people in the US, like, was that a particularly striking or impactful image? And everyone here was like, no, it was just something that happened. Whereas when I saw the film in India, the entire audience broke out into applause. Wow. Because that is an...

[01:12:22] [SPEAKER_00] It strikes people as an image of, you know, an enlightened figure. A figure reaching enlightenment. And so for me, it was like, okay, The Last Jedi is really leaning into the Buddhist influences of the force and whatnot. Which I think it is a little bit. Yeah. And so basically, so an audience in India would inherently be a little more familiar with that kind of imagery, whether or not they're actively thinking about it.

[01:12:48] [SPEAKER_01] That's the thing I find so fascinating about this process. Of, you know, identifying the reincarnate, right? Of, like, are you looking for the child that seems to be the most enlightened? Or are you looking for the child that you just identify as carrying the spirit and then your job is to teach them enlightenment?

[01:13:07] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. In the movie, it's... It really does seem like a process of, okay, we have to... Well, the search is obviously already on and it's never made clear to us because it's probably never made clear to Llamo himself.

[01:13:19] [SPEAKER_01] You only see the very final step of the search. You see them finding him.

[01:13:23] [SPEAKER_00] So we don't know what their criteria is. We just know the final step of it. Which is such an interesting thing to depict in this film because, you know, I'm perfectly fine with any departures from reality in order to, you know, tell a story. But in real life, the whole, like, monastery, the whole, like, Tibetan power structure was already aware of his family because... He was a soul boy, as they call it. And two of his older brothers were already recognized as incarnate Lamas.

[01:13:49] [SPEAKER_00] Not necessarily the Dalai Lama, but the previous Dalai Lama, when he was alive, the 13th Dalai Lama, I think, recognized one of Lamo's older brothers as an incarnate of some form as well. So, I mean, in reality, they already had their eye on this family in a way for whatever reason.

[01:14:11] [SPEAKER_00] And so, you know, there is some alternate story, I'm sure, to be dramatized about how this is a, you know, a Dune-like figure who was, you know, bred from birth to be a religious messiah. But that's, you know, not the story they're telling necessarily. It's much more of a Christ-like tale of, like, okay, this is a kid who we know has come from nowhere. And we are then imparting onto him, you know, all of this pressure and beauty.

[01:14:41] [SPEAKER_03] Right. It's basically a sort of potential candidate. It's, like, obviously, he grew up in, you know, he was a farming family, right? It's not like they were fancy. I don't know how much fanciness there really was in general. But they're right. There's stuff in the story that's fascinating where it's, like, you know, a vision was had. Or they say that the 13th Dalai Lama's embalmed corpse was facing one way and then was facing another way.

[01:15:09] [SPEAKER_03] And they took that to mean that the direction he was now looking at was the direction they needed to go in. So, obviously, that sort of stuff sounds more mystical. But then, right, there's also what you're talking about, which is, like, they had been investigating the births of, quote-unquote, like, unusual children for a long time already. And he was seen as a fearless child.

[01:15:32] [SPEAKER_01] I was going to say, I mean, it's like the fact that he seems so self-possessed seems to be appealing to them. But it's so funny because I don't think you end up with it being dramatized this way if you're not basing the movie off of his firsthand stories. But if you look at those early scenes and it feels like him remembering, I was kind of a bratty kid. I was bossing everyone around all the time. He's kind of a Rizzler.

[01:16:00] [SPEAKER_03] That's how blasphemous is this episode. It's my only worry. It's my only, you know, I don't want to... Yeah, you know. Just having fun. They did, no, I know. They did the classic test that I feel like has been sort of dramatized in so much, like, genre film and television of, like, spreading out the objects. Which are yours? He picks the right things. You know, all that stuff.

[01:16:25] [SPEAKER_03] And I think there was some worry that already, you know, in the 30s that the Chinese government was going to interfere. That it was Chiang Kai-shek, but, like, that they would sort of catch wind and show up and start, you know, looking for, I guess, a candidate to mold. Right? Right? Like, that would be the fear that they would sort of alight on someone where we're like, we'll control this person.

[01:16:49] [SPEAKER_03] Um, so, uh, there was, I mean, there's all kinds of stuff that they don't really dramatize. But, yeah, like, there was money that had to be paid. And, I mean, too much to go into. But, um, yeah. But that's not really in the film, I feel like. Right? Like, they're not really delving into, too deep into all that machination.

[01:17:07] [SPEAKER_01] No, because that's the kind of stuff that's happening unawares of him.

[01:17:11] [SPEAKER_03] Yes. Um, and then, yes, you know, he gets brought to the Patala Palace in Lhasa, where he essentially, it's like, will be the Dalai Lama. It's like, you're not actually, like, going to be sort of invested yet, but you will live here and we will wait for you to come of age. Right? 18 is the usual. I think he was about 15 when he actually sort of...

[01:17:32] [SPEAKER_00] He asked for it to happen earlier. Exactly. Right. Which was around the, the most bit of the annexation at the time. I think he was 16. Right.

[01:17:40] [SPEAKER_03] And then, I would say the film, which is, the film's about two hours long. Maybe a little over. 2.15. Yeah. With credits. The first sort of hour of the film is pretty light on plot. Like, right? It's just kind of his young development. And, like, you have tensions, like the sort of power struggle with, um, you know, the regent, uh, you know, writing. Writing? But, like, it's, as you guys have said, like, it's sort of happening in the background.

[01:18:07] [SPEAKER_03] We don't really understand all the details of what's going on.

[01:18:11] [SPEAKER_01] No, and it feels like it's a collection of just vignettes of very, very specific childhood memories. That's what really surprised me, is that it's, it's the kind of things that you would only get from talking to the guy himself.

[01:18:24] [SPEAKER_00] And they're very specific about what he does and doesn't know and does and doesn't learn. Because the eventual killing of that particular Ettingrin Poche was very brutal, reportedly. But he just, like, you know, hears about it as, like, oh, this is a thing that happened in the prison. And he's learning that there's a prison for the first time, supposedly. And all he knows is, like, oh, he wanted to come back and, you know, do this. But we said this.

[01:18:49] [SPEAKER_00] Whereas the political complications were obviously a lot more detailed than that. But this is, you know, things that are being explained to a teenager. And so you're very, very locked into, like, I think one of you guys said, the myopia of, you know, seeing this through the eyes of a child. It's very much a movie about being a child.

[01:19:09] [SPEAKER_01] It's a movie about a child in extraordinary circumstances.

[01:19:12] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. And, you know, even the bits where, like, they move his parents into the palace and all that. I'm sure that, you know, really happened. But it feels almost like, because as he's making a movie about, like, Macaulay Culkin or something like that, like a child star.

[01:19:25] [SPEAKER_01] Well, it's fascinating. Yes. Yes. That's a good way of putting it. I mean, he's only got two movies that are basically told from the perspective of a child. And Hugo is so much more fantastical and is more plotty than most of his films. So I think there's a little bit of the energy of, you know, the camera being lower and running through these adult spaces. But this is really a movie about, like, you know, when you recount your own childhood memories, it's sometimes random as to which things loom very large in your mind.

[01:19:54] [SPEAKER_01] And obviously, the biggest events maybe are remembered through a very specific prism or lens that's often sort of, like, obstructed or incomplete. And then there are tiny things that just, like, stick in your memory forever. It's a really good movie about childhood.

[01:20:11] [SPEAKER_00] And I think also, yeah, it is based a lot on, you know, the Dalai Lama's memories. But it also feels like it is, in a way, the Dalai Lama dreaming about his past. Because, you know, even towards the end, you also see a scene of, you know, the young adult Dalai Lama, like, you know, imagining or dreaming, you know, bits from childhood overlapping with more recent events. But the whole movie seems to operate on this really interesting dream logic.

[01:20:39] [SPEAKER_01] There's a lot of crossfades in the edits. Yeah. And everything feels very montage-y. And then adding the Philip Glass score on top of that only accentuates that.

[01:20:48] [SPEAKER_00] Exactly. And, you know, there are dreams that I've had, which I'm sure other people have had, where it feels like, you know, you were trying to accomplish some task. You're running, but you're in place. Or you're unable to overcome some kind of obstacle for, like, you know, some invisible reason that you can't fully understand. And it feels like that's this whole movie, where, like, there are these huge forces outside of Lama's control, outside of his understanding.

[01:21:15] [SPEAKER_00] And, but he just has to keep pushing forward without a full grasp on, you know, what form his life has taken.

[01:21:24] [SPEAKER_01] Well, he's granted such immense power, but it's also a, like, perspective power. Mm-hmm. It's a power, he's clothed in immense power, but he's also completely sheltered. It's this very bizarre contrast between the two.

[01:21:40] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Yeah, it's a movie about what happens when you are, at an early age, turned into a religious and political symbol.

[01:21:47] [SPEAKER_03] The only problem with this movie is, it indulges my urge to Google. Like, I'm watching it, and I'm like, well, I want to learn all about, like, Tibetan political history of the 30s and 40s. And it's like, David, that's complicated. Pay attention to the movie. I'm like, oh, but I want to, like, Google some stuff right now. Because, wisely, we're not seeing everything that's going on. But, like, Chinese history in that period is crazy.

[01:22:15] [SPEAKER_03] And, like, not crazy in a, like, you won't believe what they're doing. It's just so massive and complicated, and the country is in such a bizarre place. And Tibet, you know, I think because we all grew up with, like, yeah, well, Tibet is this sort of, like, persecuted place. And those people, you know, many Tibetans live in exile, etc. But, like, Tibet was this sort of interesting state. Like, it had power. It had even, like, you know, sort of, like, military power at points in history.

[01:22:44] [SPEAKER_03] It's all fascinating to consider.

[01:22:46] [SPEAKER_01] See, I have the opposite tendency as you, where you love a movie that makes you Google, and I love a movie that's grounded in one very specific point of view. I think the movie's true. And just places yourself emotionally within a character. Yes, which is what it's doing, and I think that is what it's going to do. In historical films, that's what I prefer.

[01:23:00] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Yes. But, like, so the 13th Dalai Lama had, like, declared independence. Like, and obviously, you know, China did not recognize that. And, but, like, the country's sort of been operating autonomously for, like, 20 years at this point. Sort of. It's also hard to get there. You know, it's a country that's protected by its geography in many ways. So I think that was, there was so much going on in China that it was sort of like, we'll get to that later. And that's what's eventually washing ashore post-war.

[01:23:30] [SPEAKER_03] Like, you know.

[01:23:32] [SPEAKER_02] Interesting. Just very interesting to me.

[01:23:33] [SPEAKER_03] And I think it's interesting to have the film not delve into it because that must have been the emotional experience of the character. Of, like, I understand that there are forces, you know, kind of at work against me, but I don't really understand what they are and I don't really understand what they're doing.

[01:23:50] [SPEAKER_01] But you also feel a ticking clock from everyone around him of, can we get him ready in time to be able to solve this issue? Or at least to represent, like, his people. Yes. Yeah.

[01:24:00] [SPEAKER_00] Yes. And the extent of the, I think because of, you know, the perspective it's told through, someone sheltered, etc. The extent of the actual geopolitics that we get is simply, you know, we are a peace-loving people versus, you know, China giving this sort of front or this facade of like, well, you know, you're a theocratic feudal state and we want to liberate you, which are the, you know, two of the prevailing positions.

[01:24:28] [SPEAKER_00] And it doesn't get into any of the actual, you know, the strategic advantages of having Tibet under your control. And it doesn't need to because that's something that, you know, David, you can Google. I'm going to Google more of it.

[01:24:43] [SPEAKER_02] I'll be Googling.

[01:24:46] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Yeah. Something I'm also cognizant of is like, you know, we're here. We live in the US. I'm from India. We are countries that have, you know, for a very long time been at odds with China. So our perspective and the information we get is going to be like slanted a particular way. So I will just say up front, this is not an issue that I know enough about to really. Too bad.

[01:25:12] [SPEAKER_02] You got to weigh in.

[01:25:13] [SPEAKER_00] Pro or anti. All right. Fine. Let me get my friend Killian on the phone. Hold on. Wait, what did Killian Murphy do? I don't even know which. No, Killian Mbappe.

[01:25:22] [SPEAKER_03] Oh, okay. Oh, Killian Mbappe. Sorry. I keep forgetting.

[01:25:24] [SPEAKER_00] What happened was, so people keep making memes of him as, you know, various strongmen, political dictator, political strongmen and, you know, figures like that. And he acknowledged one of them, which was him, his face photoshopped onto Mao's. Right. And he referred to Mao as a dictator and people were very upset.

[01:25:42] [SPEAKER_03] Right. He didn't even come out here and be like, I demand the liberation of Tibet. He was just like, Mao's a dictator. And even that was sort of a too controversial a statement. What should he have said? Mao's just an interesting person.

[01:25:53] [SPEAKER_00] He shouldn't have said anything if he wanted to, you know, keep his sponsorships in place, I guess.

[01:25:58] [SPEAKER_03] But who needs those? You're rich enough, right? It's fine. This is what happened with the, he was in charge of the Houston Rockets. It's not Dylan Murray. What the hell is his name? Daryl Murray. He, you know, obviously basketball is incredibly popular in China. He like retweeted something that was sort of like stand with Hong Kong during the period in the sort of late 2010s when there was demonstrations happening. Against, you know, democracy being suppressed in Hong Kong.

[01:26:27] [SPEAKER_03] And it was just one of those things where like immediately Chinese state media is like, we will black out all NBA broadcasts if you do not like fix this right away. Like the hammer just came down like so tremendously hard. And it was just kind of one of those moments where the NBA had to be like, we distance ourselves from these views. Like they had to nakedly just kind of be like, yeah, we don't support Daryl Murray standing with democracy in Hong Kong.

[01:26:52] [SPEAKER_01] And what happened with Daryl Murray himself?

[01:26:54] [SPEAKER_03] You know, he stepped down from the Rockets a year later, but then he worked at, he was the GM of Philadelphia for years. So it's not like he was like blacklisted from the league, but there was not a moment where lots of people suddenly were like, well, no, I think you should have the right to speak freely. You know, they had to just kind of be like, oh, no, no, sorry.

[01:27:11] [SPEAKER_00] Sorry. Don't worry about it. You know, money. And should we also clarify for anyone listening who doesn't know the John Cena thing, what we're talking about? Now that was that he acknowledged Taiwan as a country in some way, right? Specifically, he was saying, I can't remember if it was Fast 8 or Fast 9. I think it was the former. It was 9. He was saying something along the lines of, yeah, you know, Fast 9 comes out in Taiwan soon.

[01:27:34] [SPEAKER_01] Right. He said it's the first country that can watch F9. Yeah, he called Taiwan a country. Right.

[01:27:40] [SPEAKER_03] And then he made a apology video in what seemed like quite excellent Mandarin on Weibo, the sort of Chinese social media site.

[01:27:50] [SPEAKER_00] And which of those videos is the one where he is eating ice cream? It is called the Bing Ching video. Yeah.

[01:28:00] [SPEAKER_03] That is the video in which he is eating ice cream. The apology or the original one?

[01:28:04] [SPEAKER_01] The apology.

[01:28:05] [SPEAKER_00] Okay. And I think roughly it translates to something like, I like ice cream or something like that. I think it's very simple. Okay. But yeah.

[01:28:15] [SPEAKER_03] He also said, I'm very sorry. I am really sorry. You have to understand that I love and respect China and Chinese people in Chinese Mandarin. He, I think, speaks Chinese Mandarin quite well. He seems to be fluent. Yes. Yes. John Cena, a man of many talents. Very good in Coyote vs. Acme.

[01:28:33] [SPEAKER_00] Agreed. Yes. There was also a period where he was introducing a new finishing move as like a tribute to China. Really? Yeah. He called, so he has like these five moves that he repeats throughout every match. Uh-huh. And then he built this up, which is something he called the sixth move of doom. Boom. And he just punched a guy in his face.

[01:28:52] [SPEAKER_01] That sounds pretty good to me. Wait a second. He retired it. How do you know he punched a guy? You can't see him. That's true.

[01:28:59] [SPEAKER_03] Uh, what were his other finishing moves? He's after my wrestling, like my interest in wrestling. So I don't know what his, I know he was a face. I know he was like a hero.

[01:29:07] [SPEAKER_00] So there was, there was a couple of ones that he repeats, like just, you know, like very simple, like transitionary moves, like this slam, that slam. But like his finishing move back in like 2001, 2002 was called the FU. It was, it was a parody of Brock Lesnar's finisher, the F5, which is a reference to, to, to, um, a hurricane. Right? Yeah. So his was called the FU because at the time he was, his character was like, I'm a white gangster rapper. Yeah. Right. That was the big thing.

[01:29:37] [SPEAKER_01] His breakthrough was the fact that he was good at, uh, freestyling.

[01:29:40] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Yes. And, and he had like a submission hold called the STFU, which as you know, stands for shut the fuck up. Yeah. But when they cleaned up his character, when they cleaned up his character and they made him like, he's becomes more Captain America. Right. The face of the company and all these make a wish things. The FU became the AA, which is the attitude adjustment. Okay. Uh, he's just teaching you a lesson. That's all he's doing. Yeah. And the STFU became the STF.

[01:30:10] [SPEAKER_00] So it's just shut the fuck. Or shut the fuck. No, it's step over, toe hold, face lock. It's describing the move.

[01:30:17] [SPEAKER_03] Okay. It may as well be shut the fuck, but he still has. Step over to hold face lock.

[01:30:21] [SPEAKER_00] He still has one called the five knuckle shuffle, which is just a euphemism for jerking off.

[01:30:26] [SPEAKER_03] It's true.

[01:30:27] [SPEAKER_00] But also punching. Yes. I hope that Dalai Lama is listening to this episode. He definitely is.

[01:30:32] [SPEAKER_01] He's a blankie.

[01:30:33] [SPEAKER_03] It's just like, I grew up with like, you know what? The stone cold stunner and the, you know, people's elbow. What were some other great finishing moves, Ben? And you weren't really a wrestling guy, which is surprising given some of your other interests as a young person. Tomfoolery. Yeah, exactly.

[01:30:49] [SPEAKER_01] Horsing around. Rough housing. Yeah.

[01:30:52] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. I watched a little bit of it, but it never clicked for me. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:30:57] [SPEAKER_01] I've said this before, but I grew up in a household where my dad and my brother were obsessed with wrestling. And I was like, ugh, more sports. And now I look back on that era and I'm like, this is improv comedy. That's the one you should have dialed into.

[01:31:09] [SPEAKER_00] Griffin, I need to take you to a wrestling show. I hope you know I've made Patrick, Patrick Ellum, a wrestling fan over the last few years.

[01:31:16] [SPEAKER_01] I went to an AEW event with Matt Singer recently. I'm happy to go to any and all wrestling events. Nice. Which event did you go to? What was it? The Four for All was, I'll find the name of the thing. That's not a real thing. Clearly, I memorized it.

[01:31:29] [SPEAKER_03] Are you an AEW fan primarily at this point? Primarily.

[01:31:33] [SPEAKER_00] Are you still into WWE maybe a little over a year ago? Is WWE just cooked? I mean, look. I mean, the politics are great. The politics are absolutely great. They did just get back from Saudi and narrowly missed their entire cast and crew being blown up.

[01:31:48] [SPEAKER_01] Double or nothing.

[01:31:49] [SPEAKER_00] I was there for that. Really? Yeah. Yeah.

[01:31:51] [SPEAKER_01] I was there with Matt Singer.

[01:31:52] [SPEAKER_00] I was there with Ben David Grabinski. Wow.

[01:31:57] [SPEAKER_01] You were at the same event? Yes. Insane. There you go. Friend of the show.

[01:32:02] [SPEAKER_00] But yeah, that was the one where there was a match that was basically taking place in the stands. Yes.

[01:32:07] [SPEAKER_01] They used the whole space. There you go. Yeah. Fever in the round. Yes.

[01:32:12] [SPEAKER_00] I'm so glad you went to that.

[01:32:13] [SPEAKER_01] I had a great time. I'll go. I will go gladly anytime you want to go to a event. Please do. Yeah.

[01:32:30] [SPEAKER_02] Kundun. Goddamn.

[01:32:34] [SPEAKER_03] So, yeah. What am I? What's to touch on here? We talked about him being a child. We talked about his sort of early homesickness. There's the power struggle. Right. Where Retting is imprisoned. And that's sort of when he starts to assert himself more as a person. Are there scenes I'm not thinking of? I just watched this movie. I will admit, I was solo parenting my children during this weekend. So, I did watch it while they were asleep. But I was dazzlingly tired when I watched Kuntun again.

[01:33:03] [SPEAKER_03] I'm trying to pull it up on my Plex server so that I can recall certain scenes. Well, I forgot. But yeah. Eventually, he, you know, kind of assertively takes control. Right? I mean, well. Takes control is strong. But, you know, like you have, you know, it's not like those earlier scenes where, like, he's watching two people of power have a conversation like this. Yes. You know, as a kid. Like, peeking from behind a curtain.

[01:33:27] [SPEAKER_01] The important scenes you're seeing from the perspective of, like, a space between walls. Yeah.

[01:33:34] [SPEAKER_03] Or, like, he's in his bed. The sort of throne. Yes. It's still there. Yeah. You can go visit the Patala Palace, I think. Although, I think it's very hard to. Like, I think they limit visitors. And obviously, it's in China. And obviously, the Tibetan government is not involved. And, like, people are coming and, like, telling him stuff. And he's a little kid who's sort of receiving this information. He's so cute. He's such a cutie pie. Is that rude of me to just say he's a cutie pie? No, I, let's talk about. You sound like him today.

[01:34:05] [SPEAKER_03] I don't watch much, like, Dalai Lama stuff today. I know he's out there. He's a celeb in his way. He gives talks. He gives interviews. What are you thinking?

[01:34:15] [SPEAKER_00] I think you missed a really big news item from a couple of years ago. Which was? He told a little boy. He stuck out his tongue. Which is, like, you know, a kind of greeting thing that he does. But, like, he told this little boy to, like, bite his tongue or, like, suck on his tongue. It was very creepy.

[01:34:34] [SPEAKER_03] He was trying to be playful. But it was incredibly weird. The tongue-sucking incident is the first thing that comes up when you Google Dalai Lama controversy. Which is kind of funny given that I assume there have been genuine sort of, you know, geopolitical controversies surrounding the man. But he did ask someone to suck on his tongue. And he says he was being innocent and playful.

[01:34:56] [SPEAKER_01] Let's talk about performances a little since we disagree on this. I think the kid is so fucking good. And is giving just such a natural child performance. I just do think it was weird he went on stir.

[01:35:08] [SPEAKER_03] That's all I'll say. And he went to Club Brandon.

[01:35:10] [SPEAKER_01] Sorry, carry on. Yeah, the kid is very natural. Yes. But also was so self-possessed, which is what you need to get across. That I think I was just so won over that section of the movie. It is also just rare to watch a film with, like, zero professional actors in it.

[01:35:28] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. And I think, you know, even though I was being a bit snarky, there are reasons that, you know, the movie is like this. Because, you know, you have to find, first of all, you know, Tibetan actors who speak fluent English. And, you know, if the intent is also to, like, cast people who are, like, close to or related to the Dalai Lama, then you've already narrowed down your potential pool so greatly.

[01:35:53] [SPEAKER_00] And so because of that, to me, the dialogue at times, the delivery of it can feel a little stilted. But there is also, like, this operatic quality to the movie. So I don't entirely mind. Like, when we have the, you know, the oldest Dalai Lama, he has some of the most beautiful lines that I've ever heard. Things like, you know, I'm a reflection of the moon on the water. Or when he's asked, you know, do we have time? He doesn't say, I don't know.

[01:36:23] [SPEAKER_00] He says, I have never known. Which, to me, feels like, almost like an embracing of the fact that he is this continuation of 14 different people. And so the fact that he's not able to, that actor has, like, very limited parameters in which he performs. I don't know if he's done anything before or since. But despite all that, it fits the operatic mode of the movie.

[01:36:50] [SPEAKER_00] He seems to emote by gesturing physically as compared to, like, doing anything with his face. Which is an interesting contrast, again, to the real Dalai Lama who looks perpetually surprised. Yes. So this is the complete opposite of that.

[01:37:04] [SPEAKER_01] The top three build people on IMDb are the three oldest actors playing the Dalai Lama. And all of them only have two credits, which are this movie and the documentary accompanying this movie. And their headshots on IMDb are still frames from this movie. I think everyone is, if not giving a kind of, like, classical, technically mature performance,

[01:37:32] [SPEAKER_01] everyone is embodying the energy that the movie needs from that moment. And I think it helps that everyone's purview is pretty slight, to your point. It's either children who have a limited understanding of what's going on at that point in time, or adults who are trying to limit the understanding of those children. You don't have a lot of scenes of high drama. The high drama is happening in the margins. Yeah.

[01:37:55] [SPEAKER_00] And I think there is also something to be said about the fact that, you know, in casting this movie as authentically as possible, yes, I do think, you know, even though I think some of it gets emotionally limited, but there become, that it becomes an almost metatextual exercise in watching a displaced people try and convey their history to you. That's a great point.

[01:38:18] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. I forgot, like, a moment where we jump, we go four years later, you know, so where we're sort of jumping in age with him, is the moment where it starts with him in the car. I like that the car has license plate to bet number three. It's like, it's the third car, which is followed very quickly by them watching a Melia movie, which feels like the one thing Barty probably like was like, well, what kind of stories has he told you? And Melissa Matheson's like, well, he watched a movie one time.

[01:38:48] [SPEAKER_03] He's like, I want to know more about that. Like, but it, you know, it is fascinating to think about him, like getting these glimpses of like art from, you know, or perspectives from, you know, the other side of the world.

[01:39:01] [SPEAKER_00] And already like a couple of decades into the sound era, he's just discovering silent film. Totally.

[01:39:07] [SPEAKER_03] And like, obviously those movies are beautiful. The weird colors, like, you know, just like the weird sort of primitive nature of the Melia movies, where it's like, I don't know, like, you know.

[01:39:18] [SPEAKER_01] Presented more as magic tricks. Exactly. Right.

[01:39:19] [SPEAKER_03] Like there is a poetry to them that, you know.

[01:39:22] [SPEAKER_00] Specifically.

[01:39:22] [SPEAKER_03] It's not like he's watching, you know, a John Ford movie.

[01:39:26] [SPEAKER_00] Magic tricks is a great way to put it because, you know, so much of Buddhism revolves around the idea of reality as something illusory and something to be overcome in a way.

[01:39:41] [SPEAKER_03] Makes me feel better about the time that my daughter asked me when she was about three years old who the Buddha was because we were in a museum and there were statues of the Buddha. And I was like, um, he's a guy that is very important to people. He's sort of magic. And then I was like, I have to stop talking. I cannot describe religion to my daughter right now in a way that'll make sense to her, but I certainly can be using the word magic. That is not helpful to anyone. And I felt bad about it.

[01:40:10] [SPEAKER_03] She still doesn't really know who like Jesus is either. I haven't told her. God? Well, you can show a couple of Scorsese movies.

[01:40:16] [SPEAKER_01] Well, that's true. I'm sure those will go over great. They sure were mean streets. What you need to understand is guilt. That's the lesson you teach. Yeah, well, that's true.

[01:40:28] [SPEAKER_03] A little guilt never did anyone any harm. That's actually not the point of Martin Scorsese movies.

[01:40:33] [SPEAKER_01] A thing I love in this movie is when Deakins shoots from underneath cloth. The moments that they're literally kind of shielding or masking him. And you're seeing things from the perspective of his face just covered. And especially that one scene where they have to try to get him out of the building.

[01:40:50] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Yes. Then later, right around that scene, that's when he witnesses, he's shown like the video of the atomic bomb. Right. Which just, again, it's because the world's so cloistered, so fascinating to consider that like, that kind of knowledge reaching you.

[01:41:10] [SPEAKER_01] Like that sort of horrifying, like, by the way. Well, like how many times has he seen something projected on film? Period. Let alone documentary. Let alone something so technologically devastating. How much understanding does he have of what's happening in other countries? Like all of these are just fascinating things to consider. And I love that the movie doesn't overly explain these things. I don't like it. You don't like it? Yeah, the atomic bomb. Well, I'm against it. Sure, sure.

[01:41:41] [SPEAKER_00] So. Without that kind of nuclear radiation, you wouldn't have the Red Hulk. Yeah, David.

[01:41:46] [SPEAKER_03] No, he gets it through pills.

[01:41:48] [SPEAKER_00] Come on.

[01:41:48] [SPEAKER_03] No, no. The pills just suppress it. No, I think the idea, although I will say Captain America Brave New World did a bad job laying all of this out, is the pills are infecting him. He just doesn't know it.

[01:42:00] [SPEAKER_01] He thinks the pills are suppressing it.

[01:42:02] [SPEAKER_03] Which I think they do. But like, it's like the pills are what's carrying the gamma radiation into his body, right? I was talking about more like spiritually the idea of the Hulk. I understand what you're saying. I'm talking about the great film Captain America Brave New World, which was just clean script. You know? Right? Do they actually explain it? Too political. Like, it would be funny if he was like, I was walking down the road and a fucking another gamma bomb went off and it got me this time. Like, if it was something that simple. Yeah.

[01:42:31] [SPEAKER_01] I, you know what? 50-50 shot that they say exactly that in that movie or that nothing like that is said. Ah. You excited for Doomsday? Eh. I'll watch it. I feel so over the entire thing. A little bit.

[01:42:46] [SPEAKER_00] Like, I'm, I'm curious. Mm-hmm. Like, you know, the, Doctor Doom is one of, like. Love that guy. The greatest, not just in comics, but the greatest, one of the greatest villains in all of fiction. Hardcore agree. And so, if you, he's going to be Iron Man. All right.

[01:43:05] [SPEAKER_03] The Doctor Doom they're showing me isn't the Doctor Doom that really excites me. No. They're just kind of showing me, like, an all-powerful guy. Yes. Who looks like Doctor Doom. I'm like, fine. But, you know, Doctor Doom, he's, you know, all the character stuff is what I like about him.

[01:43:19] [SPEAKER_01] Magic is the final sprinkle on top of Doctor Doom.

[01:43:21] [SPEAKER_03] Which is a fun sprinkle. It's a fun sprinkle. But I like him being a wacky head of state.

[01:43:25] [SPEAKER_01] Me too.

[01:43:25] [SPEAKER_03] Slash jealous guy. Jealous guy's big.

[01:43:28] [SPEAKER_00] This is all leading to Joby McGuire, Hugh Jackman, and Robert Downey Jr. standing next to each other in some permutation. And that's, the movie's going to make, like, 19 billion. No, I'm not. I'm not concerned about its financial.

[01:43:41] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. The Claras will be rolling. They will be. They will be collecting Clara's hand over fist. I mean, I saw some number that they've already done, like, $125 million in pre-sales or something insane. Good for them. If they put those three guys on screen, I will hate the nerd boner I get for 30 seconds. Yeah, that's probably going to be the next one. So you've got a little more than a year before that happens. I'm just going to be so angry if they get me. I will be so resentful.

[01:44:11] [SPEAKER_04] They'll get you.

[01:44:12] [SPEAKER_01] They will. They'll get me in some way.

[01:44:14] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. So at a certain point, we start to learn that, you know, the Chinese Communist Revolution is essentially victorious. And Tibet has been proclaimed part of, you know, the People's Republic. And Mao shows up. Mao, I think, is probably one of the only guys who's not a Tibetan actor, right? Like, I think this is a more professional actor. Yeah.

[01:44:43] [SPEAKER_03] Who's, you know, like, I think they're to sort of reflect, you know, Robert Lin here. Yeah, he's like, right. I mean, he's, he's in lots of stuff. He's, he's got a long IMDb.

[01:44:53] [SPEAKER_00] And watching that particular performance, that sniveling bastard version of Mao. I, you know, I don't know how anyone involved with this movie thought they weren't going to anger the Chinese.

[01:45:05] [SPEAKER_03] It's a fair point. It is certainly presenting Mao essentially as a, right, like a slightly slimy liar. I think the Dalai Lama's interactions with Mao essentially were like Mao being like, no, no, no. I mean, like we can work something out, you know, like was him kind of, you know, talking in generalities and then vanishing. But yes, it is, you're, you're, it's a good point. I, but this is what I'm saying. I think at the time, no one was thinking that hard about this stuff. They were just like, oh, well, that's not a market we care about. Right?

[01:45:33] [SPEAKER_03] I really think in the 90s, because, you know, China starts to open up in the early 90s. And like the difference between like 93 and 97 is just vast, right? Like by the time the ball is rolling to the time this is coming out, it's turned from like, well, you know, they can't dictate terms to us over there. Like to like, oh, no, we've like, we're pissing off a giant country.

[01:45:53] [SPEAKER_01] But also movie studios being giant corporations and or owned by giant corporations, the entire culture changes there. I mean, it's, it's 20 years earlier, but I just saw the Devils re-release or the first release of the uncut version. I saw it with our friend Patrick Willems and we walked out and I was like, I don't know what's more insane that it, that movie is getting a wide release by a major studio today.

[01:46:17] [SPEAKER_01] A studio nonetheless owned by David Ellison at present moment or that any studio ever made that movie and thought it wasn't going to welcome so much controversy. And this is a similar movie where it's just like, I can't believe this ever had the backing of a major studio behind it. The only unsurprising thing is that they completely chickened out.

[01:46:35] [SPEAKER_03] I think it's part of it is just what, like, what a celebrity he had become. There must have been some thinking of like, well, no, this is like making a Martin Luther King biopic. This is a universally well-regarded person. Like you say, a pillar of nonviolence. Sort of, you know, he extends beyond the religion he represents. Everyone knows who the Dalai Lama is, right? And that'll, that'll work in our favor.

[01:47:00] [SPEAKER_00] And of course, like, you know, we, we sort of mentioned there was something in the ether with, you know, the Tibet being a hot button issue amongst celebrities. Yeah, right, right. It was, it was a, right. The Free Tibet Movement had, I think the Free Tibet Organization, I think was founded in 87 in London. Cool place to found something. And I, and, and I believe, you know, there was, for a long time, there was also a lot of CIA money going towards the Tibetan government.

[01:47:30] [SPEAKER_00] So that's, I don't know that there was any.

[01:47:33] [SPEAKER_02] That doesn't sound like the CIA.

[01:47:34] [SPEAKER_03] It's called the CIA Tibet Program. And obviously, yes, it was because they were like, well, we're anti-communist. So I guess we should be pro-Tibet.

[01:47:42] [SPEAKER_00] So, which I don't think has anything to do with the movie, but just all the more reason that it was in the consciousness.

[01:47:47] [SPEAKER_01] Also, not to be blunt about it, but within like Hollywood circles, it was a cause, it was a cause celeb. So if you're at a movie studio deciding whether or not to green light something, you go, well, everyone seems to agree with this political stance without maybe necessarily thinking through the repercussions of it. But yeah, when you get to this section of the movie, it's unavoidable.

[01:48:10] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, we see the army arrive. It's an incredible shot. I mean, like there, there are certain shots like that one where it's like all the flags, you know, like the giant line of them in the dust with the mountains behind them, where you're like, I can't believe this movie only costs $25 million. You know, like it's unbelievable. But it's like I said earlier, like he is a passive character.

[01:48:32] [SPEAKER_03] Like this is happening around him and they are trying to navigate a way to survive and not, you know, whatever, get drawn into something that will destroy the, you know, what, you know, everything they're doing.

[01:48:47] [SPEAKER_01] Also not burden his developmental process with issues that are becoming more and more pressing. Right. But it's also like this movie makes you question the oddness of being told who you are at this scale. You know, like being having placed upon you not just expectations, but power simultaneously. Yeah.

[01:49:07] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. And it makes me grateful that there are, you know, some filmmakers, there are some studios, some production companies that are willing to make movies like this, especially in the West. Because we're just coming off of yesterday at the time we're recording this. Yesterday was the festival of Diwali.

[01:49:23] [SPEAKER_00] And it was also the weekend that the Ramayana movie came out, which is a huge Hindu epic, which similarly, you know, has a protagonist who is a reincarnated figure who from an early age is, you know, in this version and, you know, various other versions across the ages is told like, hey, you know, it is your spiritual destiny to defeat all these demon kings. And like, we are raising you to be this holy warrior.

[01:49:54] [SPEAKER_00] But, you know, at the current moment, a big Bollywood studio is not going to ever investigate the implications of something like that at all. You know, so the Ramayana is never going to be something that has a particularly challenging or, in my opinion, really interesting.

[01:50:12] [SPEAKER_03] Right. You weren't very fond of this. No. And the bots are after you.

[01:50:15] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. It's not going to have an interesting incarnation until it gets its last temptation of Christ, so to speak, or its gunnoon. But that's never going to happen because no one wants to, no one in India certainly wants to, you know, piss off the movie going market.

[01:50:31] [SPEAKER_01] Well, if we can talk about Marty within this context for a moment, it is kind of incredible how unwavering he has been his entire career to this is what I think is interesting about this story. And if I'm not allowed to tell it this way, I'm not going to make it right. Like this movie came together surprisingly easily, even though it had to go across two studios. But like last temptation, he was willing to wait 10 years or whatever to be like, it's got to be this. I'm not backing down. I'm not making a sanitized version of this.

[01:51:00] [SPEAKER_01] And the Sinatra movie that he's been interested in making forever, he doesn't make because the family won't let him get into the mob connections. And his response to that, where many filmmakers would bend, is then I'm not making the movie. And we can revisit this conversation in a year or two. But if you're telling an incomplete version of the story, then I'm not interested in telling it.

[01:51:21] [SPEAKER_01] But there are very few filmmakers like that and certainly like that working at this scale within the upper echelon of the biggest studios in Hollywood and later the biggest technology companies in Hollywood. I mean, this is just like not a scared film at all.

[01:51:37] [SPEAKER_03] No, no, it's not. It doesn't feel remotely compromised. And I guess there's an argument for like, well, it's better that this film was made without much compromise and then kind of buried, but exists and we can watch it. And, you know, it's part of a very storied filmmaker's filmography versus like whatever. Yeah, some larger scale sanitized thing happened. I mean, sometimes you get both. Sometimes you get a film that tells the perfect truth that is received by a wide audience.

[01:52:05] [SPEAKER_03] And of course, I'm talking about Antoine Fuqua's film Michael. I couldn't tell if you were going there or Bohemian Rhapsody.

[01:52:11] [SPEAKER_01] I was trying to say it in unison.

[01:52:13] [SPEAKER_03] Nothing compromised about Bohemian Rhapsody.

[01:52:16] [SPEAKER_01] Production was smooth, I'm told. Nothing compromised. If you take a stopwatch to the edit, every band member is on screen for the same number of seconds.

[01:52:24] [SPEAKER_03] No, but I mean, like Michael, I guess just like there's tons of other biopics that are like it now. Right. Where you're just like, yeah, like you better not even think about trying to tell a complicated story. Correct. Yeah.

[01:52:34] [SPEAKER_01] I mean, that's a case where they tried and then the movie was unmade. Well, they were trying to tell. Yeah. Complicated in a bad way. Maybe not honest, but complicated.

[01:52:43] [SPEAKER_03] They were trying to complicate it. You seen Michael? I haven't seen it yet.

[01:52:46] [SPEAKER_00] Unfortunately, I have. How'd you like it? Five? Six stars? Less probably. I think it's like even without the whole thing of like it doesn't get into this, that and the other. Even for what it is trying to do. It's just a really, really bad and mechanical version of that.

[01:53:01] [SPEAKER_01] But don't you find that there's some sort of like. What about the fact that he's the greatest? Thought about that? That the tropes of that genre and that subgenre now have become so comfortable that at times the movie tricks you into thinking it's more functional than it is. Like I was watching it and wrestling with it where I'd be like, oh, it's like the montage where they get the thing together. And then I'd be like, everything in this movie is dishonest.

[01:53:25] [SPEAKER_01] But it's playing the beats of this already dishonest thing that we're used to at just a higher level of insincerity.

[01:53:33] [SPEAKER_00] I think also like the insincerity of it aside, I think when you're dealing with a figure as, you know, culturally iconic as Michael Jackson, even if you come at it as a fan. Right. Let me let me just turn on the side of my brain that is just Michael Jackson fan. And, you know, you watch these recreations of these iconic world changing performances. It's not as good as the real thing.

[01:54:01] [SPEAKER_00] Like, why am I watching this movie when I could just do on YouTube right now?

[01:54:04] [SPEAKER_01] People are weirdly obsessed with that. And like the sort of like YouTube edits side by side. Look at how close the choreography is. Yeah, people like this. Look at how similar the positioning of his arm is in this interview. Which to me defeats the purpose where I'm like, is not the better version of this movie a like two hour documentary released in IMAX that's 80% concert footage and like 20% documentary fill in of like. And then Michael said, no, I'm my own man.

[01:54:34] [SPEAKER_01] And he turned down this contract.

[01:54:36] [SPEAKER_00] And it's so funny that Michael, much like Kundun, is a movie about like a quasi religious 20th century figure where the character is played by like the actor's relative. Yeah. But they're very, very different movies, of course. In other ways.

[01:54:52] [SPEAKER_00] But like, you know, if Kundun was made under circumstances like this under, you know, one of today's studios where the biopic essentially treats a person as a person or an estate as an IP. It would be, you know, it would look something a lot like a very Wikipedia checklist, like birth to death biopic. Like, and then this happened and then this happened.

[01:55:17] [SPEAKER_00] And it wouldn't be able to operate on the kind of like the, not just the dream logic that we were talking about, but the perspective that enhances the story of it being about a burden placed on someone. It would then just be like, look at this guy. Isn't he so great?

[01:55:33] [SPEAKER_01] That's a big part of it. I also think that movie sanitizes the unsavory aspects of Michael Jackson's life and legacy so much that he stops being a person with agency inside a story outside of just being able to say, I'm my own man or I want to be my own man. It has to like dodge and weave around so many different like booby traps that he stops being a guy and he starts to feel like a mythical figure without any sort of interiority. Whereas Kundun is the precise opposite of that.

[01:56:02] [SPEAKER_00] Which is what I really appreciate. Where he's fighting for agency. Yes. He's fighting to, in a way, like, yes, he is a passive character in terms of the plot, but he's constantly fighting to be involved, to be understood. And the only real decision he is allowed to make, so to speak, is to escape.

[01:56:20] [SPEAKER_02] Yes.

[01:56:21] [SPEAKER_03] And. Right. There's this sort of middle section of the movie where there's, he has like meeting after meeting with different Chinese army officials. And it's sort of like the news or the, the attitude just deteriorating with every new guy.

[01:56:33] [SPEAKER_00] And if I can say I was surprised upon this rewatch to see the, uh, just cause I didn't remember it. The, the amount of nuance that those characters are given, because I definitely remember, you know, the movie's depiction of Mao being very cartoonish. But, but some of those characters, those generals, uh, talking about like the actual, like, you know, the, the anguish that they went through, you know, socioeconomically until, you know.

[01:57:01] [SPEAKER_03] They're trying to sell him on like, yeah, you should join the people's Republic of China because it's going to be better.

[01:57:07] [SPEAKER_00] Like we're making a new thing. But it also like their, their monologues, which are basically straight to the camera, you know, they seem to come from a very emotionally honest place as well, even though they're trying to, you know, they're, they're delivering like political sermons.

[01:57:21] [SPEAKER_01] But I think, I think they largely believe what they're saying from their own lived experience and perspective. And this movie, unlike Michael, is centering you so much in the perspective of the one person experiencing all this happening to him. And if you're hearing his recounting of this experience, uh, the Dalai Lama himself, he's going to say like, I didn't know whether or not to trust them. I'm hearing new voices from a new perspective and a new place for the first time in my life. And to some degree, they're convincing.

[01:57:49] [SPEAKER_01] I mean, that's an interesting thing to consider.

[01:57:52] [SPEAKER_03] No, I mean, there's a world, I guess, right where they let themselves be absorbed or whatever. It's just very obvious that, you know, the fundamental goals of these two organizations are not going to gel. Of Tibetan Buddhism and the People's Republic of China's army, like are not probably going to be able to get along.

[01:58:12] [SPEAKER_01] Well, ultimately, the centering force for him is like peace and the safety of his people, which the more he becomes aware of how much that is being jeopardized, the more immovable he becomes.

[01:58:24] [SPEAKER_03] Um, yeah, because Mao, as you say, he's played as kind of preening, kind of sort of sinuous, you know, he's smoking a cigarette. And he's kind of just being like, you know, I like a lot of your ideas. Like, and I know Buddhists. Like, but then he's like, but you know, religion is poison. So FYI, that is sort of a, you know, roadblock for me.

[01:58:46] [SPEAKER_01] Also, I looked up his other credits. He played Mao on an episode of SNL in the 90s. What? Sounds nuanced. Before this? Roma Downey episode. Yes, before this. He also, after this, played Lawrence's father in School of Rock. He's the father of the keyboardist who doesn't want him playing rock music.

[01:59:04] [SPEAKER_03] I was about to say, I assume he disappears. Classical only. Yes. Right, right, right.

[01:59:07] [SPEAKER_01] Now, why was Roma Downey hosting SNL?

[01:59:11] [SPEAKER_00] 90s were a while. Going from Mao on SNL to this movie, it reminds me of, I think his name is James Austin Johnson, the guy who does Trump on SNL. Recently guested on this podcast. Really? Yes.

[01:59:20] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, wow. For which film? For the Bob Dylan documentaries we did on the Patreon. Very nice.

[01:59:25] [SPEAKER_00] Yes. He then, as I'm sure you know, went on to voice Trump in She Said?

[01:59:30] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. Yes. But you know what? I think that weirdly happened before he got on SNL, but was released after. Oh, wow. It's within his first season. Okay. I think they hired him to do that off of him doing videos on his own, like, Instagram and Twitter. Right. But still, going from a comedy context to that. 100%. It's fascinating. Yeah. Because in the timeline of how it was released, he is SNL Donald Trump, and then he is serious Donald Trump in a prestige movie.

[01:59:59] [SPEAKER_03] The Hollywood Reporter just announced that Ridley Scott won't be able to accept his honorary Oscar because he had a medical procedure. He is 89 years old and isn't advised not to travel. The picture they've chosen, which I assume is from, like, an alien press store, it just looks like he's, like, the Chancellor of the Empire or something. What is this?

[02:00:16] [SPEAKER_01] Surrounded by Geiger imagery. Geiger imagery.

[02:00:18] [SPEAKER_03] He's got this kind of, like, I think it's a scarf, but it looks like he's wearing, like, robes or a cape.

[02:00:22] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. All black. Yes. That's all. He looks like he's hoarding the spice melon. The worst version of this movie is centered only on scenes like him correctly identifying that his teeth are in the cabinet, right? Things like that that are, like, look at this magical child. Of course, he was destined for this. The choice I like is to have scenes, like, when he goes back to have breakfast with his

[02:00:47] [SPEAKER_01] father and he won't stop trying to steal his egg, that just completely place you right back in, like, at the end of the day, this is a kid who maybe to some degree misses just being able to, like, fool around with his brothers and his parents. And that's why the shit with the car is so much fun. Them sneaking around when they end up overhearing the meeting is so much fun. Yeah.

[02:01:06] [SPEAKER_03] When there's this scene where they're, like, fool around with a bunch of telescopes and

[02:01:10] [SPEAKER_00] stuff, like, cool shit that they find. And pulling back the curtain that way, it really reminds you of just the beautiful perverseness or the perverse beauty, however you want to call it, of this whole scenario of robbing a kid of his childhood in order to, you know, make him this exalted figure, to give him this political importance. And, like, you know, whatever you think of the Dalai Lama today, he has been one of the

[02:01:38] [SPEAKER_00] most, like, one of the most important figures of the 20th century and I would argue even the 21st. Even though it feels like this choice worked out for everybody, right? Yeah, it is something that, you know, in bits and pieces you do see, you know, even though I would say, like, if I were to give the theoretical concept of the movie's lens, if I were to give it some kind of personhood, I would say it buys into the idea of the

[02:02:08] [SPEAKER_00] Dalai Lama. But every once in a while, its gaze falls on things that makes it doubt that perspective.

[02:02:16] [SPEAKER_01] Yes, I think so. And I think that allows the movie to raise the question of what if they were incorrect in their selection, you know, which I don't think is the conclusion this movie comes to. But it's an overwhelming thing to even consider.

[02:02:30] [SPEAKER_03] No, because as you said, Sidon, like, I feel like the film's ultimate feeling is, like, his decision to leave was a triumphant one in a way, or at least the right decision. Like, a bold decision and a difficult one. But, like, it was probably what saved, you know, what he represents and the people he stands for.

[02:02:53] [SPEAKER_00] And my own sort of galaxy brain take on that eventual escape, that arrival to India, it fits in with, you know, the movies like Dream Logic. But also, like, there's a certain repetitiveness to things that happen on screen. You know, him listening to other people's conversations, even dreams that he has. He's stuck in a cycle. And, you know, even the score, which is gorgeous and the way it echoes, it feels like it's echoing off the walls of a monastery at times.

[02:03:23] [SPEAKER_00] It is a repetitive score. And I'm not using that as a negative. But this movie feels almost like, in a very, very Buddhist sense, being trapped in a cycle of rebirth, of rebirth, of rebirth, until you're able to... The ultimate goal of Buddhism is the achievement of nirvana, or the escape from this cycle.

[02:03:46] [SPEAKER_00] And the relief you feel from all the narrative tension when he finally reaches the border. And, you know, he has all these beautiful words, not just about himself, but about, like, the God who's meeting him.

[02:03:59] [SPEAKER_01] But that's a 20-minute section of the movie, his escape, that plays very dreamlike. Yeah. And so it feels...

[02:04:06] [SPEAKER_03] And when it's over and he's sort of, like, you know, almost comatose, like, it almost feels like right at hallucination.

[02:04:11] [SPEAKER_01] The camera literally goes on its side.

[02:04:13] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. And it feels like he is achieving this form of spiritual enlightenment that brings him to nirvana, which is, you know, the essential goal of any Buddha or any Dalai Lama as well, is to reach that place where you are liberated from suffering, where you are, you know, liberated from this constant, you know, this tornado of being reborn and reborn and reborn into suffering. So, of course, like, you know, from a broader perspective, there's, you know, obviously

[02:04:43] [SPEAKER_00] there are political complications on the horizon of running a government from outside Tibet and whatnot. But in the context of the movie... That's sort of why the movie ends where it does. It is a sense of release.

[02:04:55] [SPEAKER_03] Yes. It does end with the longing look. He's got the telescope again. The telescope that he has to play with his child. Right. Yes. And it says, you know, the coda is, he's not yet returned to Tibet. He hopes to one day make the journey. And then following after that, it's just Michael Eisner picture of him and it just says, I'm so sorry. I apologize profoundly.

[02:05:17] [SPEAKER_01] Can I, can I read a direct Michael Eisner quote? Yeah, sure. The bad news is that the film was made. The good news is that nobody watched it. Here, I want to apologize. And in the future, we should prevent this sort of thing, which insults our friends from happening.

[02:05:33] [SPEAKER_03] Michael Eisner never a profile in courage, I would say. But yeah, not his finest hour. Yes. And he called it a stupid mistake. Martin Scorsese says he was in England. Not sure why. And the big drama on television news was that Oasis had broken up. Okay. And I liked Oasis. So I thought it was a pity, but that's the kind of thing that happens. Good point, Marty. Then I happened to see some financial news, which had an item on the Chinese having lodged a formal complaint against a film being made about the Dalai Lama.

[02:06:02] [SPEAKER_03] That was the first hint that there were problems. Indeed. So then it kind of becomes, he says for a while, Disney being like, well, we're not making it. Like while the film is in production, essentially. And China was like, we don't want you to do that. Disney was like, we're not doing it. We're not making a movie. I don't know what you're talking about. And I think then they kind of, they kind of did some flim flam with like sort of the touchstone of it where they're like, well, it's touchstone. That's not Disney. Like, who knows?

[02:06:29] [SPEAKER_03] And, but what's crazy Griffin, given the quote you read is here's Michael Eisner in 1997 on Charlie Rose before the film comes out, October. The Chinese are upset about that and have threatened our business in China. We cannot be intimidated to not distribute this movie. At the same time, we have to handle the political consequences of what we do. In this country, he put out a movie, it gets a lot of momentum, and then it's gone a few weeks later. But he is saying like, you can't, you know, he's, he's trying to sound like I kind of like, we won't be bullied.

[02:06:57] [SPEAKER_03] Um, and Scorsese says like they behaved honorably in agreeing to distribute the film. Um, he didn't love the Eisner quote I just read. Cause he's like, I don't know if your argument should kind of be like, don't worry. Movies don't last very long in the public consciousness because that's not a great way to sell any movie. Uh, and he also just thought it was kind of like, you know, a little silly of him to, that's, that's a nonsensical argument.

[02:07:27] [SPEAKER_03] Yes. Yes. Um, Kissinger, great guy. One of my pals, honestly. I RIP to him. So sad it's gone.

[02:07:34] [SPEAKER_01] Anthony Bourdain has that famous quote about if you see him at a restaurant, go shake his hand and tell him good job.

[02:07:39] [SPEAKER_03] And make sure you're ordering the fish on Thursday. Uh, Kissinger secretly flew to Beijing at some point to try and smooth this over. I think that's just what Kissinger did for the rest of his life. You know what I mean? Yeah.

[02:07:53] [SPEAKER_02] Give me money. I'm going to talk this. You know,

[02:07:55] [SPEAKER_03] you should have done less. Oh yeah. That's my opinion. Um, so whatever. He tried to smooth it over. The film was dumped out Christmas day. It grossed about $5 million. Obviously it's opening on the same day as Titanic. That's literally the same day. Marty says that. I think that's not true. I think it came out about a week later, but you know, it was never going to be a box office sensation.

[02:08:19] [SPEAKER_03] Marty does think the political stuff overshadowed it, um, enough that it probably hurt the box office. But I don't know. I don't know. This is not a movie that was going to make a lot of money.

[02:08:30] [SPEAKER_01] There's a 2016 article in the New Yorker called how China won, won the keys to Disney's magic kingdom. So it's 19 years later. And it's basically about how Iger has just successfully repaired the relationship. And the way they had to do that was Disney had to basically give China a tremendous financial stake and level of control in all of their dealings over there, which is something that Disney is loathe to do.

[02:08:54] [SPEAKER_01] But like technically Disney Shanghai is owned by China and Disney is like creating it for them. They're just for hire.

[02:09:05] [SPEAKER_00] And you can also in that era, um, see through the Marvel movies, some of the decisions that were being made specifically to, you know, attract more Chinese viewers to Tony Stark's doctor, Tony Stark's doctor, which is a scene that I, I don't think I've seen in the movie, but I have seen, you know, just like a separate- Because it was only in the Chinese cut, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Although the character exists.

[02:09:26] [SPEAKER_01] In the American cut, she's in there, she's introduced at a party. In the Chinese cut, she has a much larger role.

[02:09:31] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. And there are scenes that I think take place in China, if I'm not mistaken. One scene. In two, right? In Iron Man 2. I think it's three.

[02:09:38] [SPEAKER_01] Three. Maybe it's three. It's three he gets the surgery in China, I think. Right.

[02:09:42] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I only, I mean, to me, Iron Man 2 peaks with the Elon Musk cameo. The Iron Man series peaks with the Elon Musk cameo.

[02:09:49] [SPEAKER_01] Well, Elon's riffing a level that's freaking sublime.

[02:09:52] [SPEAKER_03] You know, Ike Barinholtz plays Elon Musk in Artificial. He's so good. I'm excited to see it. And it's one of those performances where you're like, well, this is quite over the top, but- But? The real guy is also quite over the top.

[02:10:03] [SPEAKER_00] Recently, the guy who normally plays Tucker Carlson on SNL- Yeah, Jeremy Colleen. Yeah, yeah. He just played Elon Musk. Very well, I appreciate it. I enjoyed what he did. Yes. I thought it was a good take. Oh, but yeah, sorry. Coming back to the marvel of it all. Yes, yes. It's 2016's Doctor Strange. Tilda Swinton's character, originally Tibetan in the comics. But that becomes a whole can of who knows what.

[02:10:28] [SPEAKER_03] What do you mean? A delicious can of food. Exactly.

[02:10:30] [SPEAKER_00] A delicious can of food that we won't come to.

[02:10:32] [SPEAKER_01] Zero controversy. Yeah.

[02:10:33] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. That was, I think we talked about it at the time or whatever, but I was like, that felt like a studio tripping over its own mistakes of like, well, it would be too, it would kind of be culturally insensitive to have sort of like a long mustached Tibetan guy, right? Like that's, that's, that's like a stereotype. So let's have like Tilda Swinton. That's different. You know what I mean? Like there's sort of, oh, like, well, why don't we do a different take? Yeah.

[02:10:56] [SPEAKER_00] But it was also, they didn't want to have a Tibetan character because that would be acknowledging Tibet. Yep. But they didn't want to, you know, just make them Chinese either because that would be going in the other direction. Yes. I mean, it's great. All directions are good.

[02:11:09] [SPEAKER_03] Ancient one. We love her. Tells Doctor Strange, you know, get over yourself.

[02:11:14] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. You big jerk. And they figured it out. They never get themselves into these types of boondoggles anymore. That's why they included Ruth Sabra, the Israeli agent in Brand New World. Brand New World? Brave New World? Brave New World. Originally called New World Order. Yes. Yes, it was. They should have stuck with that one. It's amazing how well they lined up all the bad decisions on that movie. Yeah, I guess they kind of just threw all that in the soup there.

[02:11:36] [SPEAKER_00] Just like fucking bowling pins.

[02:11:37] [SPEAKER_05] They just put them all there.

[02:11:40] [SPEAKER_00] Because just like the villain in that movie, they could not actually predict anything for shit. Correct. What do you mean the leader? He's got an iPad, magic iPad.

[02:11:48] [SPEAKER_03] His brain too big.

[02:11:49] [SPEAKER_00] It's gross. His brain too big. His lobster too buttery.

[02:11:54] [SPEAKER_03] So Kundum was on the way for four Oscars. Art direction, cinematography, costume, design, and score. Guess who it lost to? Titanic. All four. Won none of those Oscars. And it got, I would say, respectful reviews. Not raves. Like Roger Ebert, who loves Marty, gave it just three stars and was sort of like, you know, I'm struggling to identify the person. You know, it's a very interesting portrayal, but like I didn't really get to the humanity

[02:12:20] [SPEAKER_01] of the guy. He kind of dinged it for not having much of a plot, which is weird because Marty has always talked about that he doesn't make plot-driven movies. Yeah.

[02:12:28] [SPEAKER_03] Ed Olsteen and Slate, again, kind of mixed positive. Same with Stephen Holden. You know, where they're all like, gorgeous? You know, well, I liked it a lot, but you know, whatever. Scorsese loved the Sopranos joke. Thought that was funny. And he went to a ceremony in Washington where the Dalai Lama was getting a gold medal. There was, um...

[02:12:51] [SPEAKER_02] For what? I don't know.

[02:12:54] [SPEAKER_03] I don't know. Maybe we won like a bowling tournament. No, I... Marty just specifies a gold medal. There was a Tibetan gentleman, a very small man in golden robes. I think he was a monk. He had little glasses and a very chubby face, and he'd written a book. I forget his name. As we were streaming out, he saw me. He took my hand and he said, thank you. I thank you so much for making that film. Thank you so much. It was very sweet. And then he went on and he said, I saw your other movie. New York Gangs? Violent. Violent. And then he was like...

[02:13:23] [SPEAKER_03] And Marty sort of was like, oh, I'm sorry. And he was like, it's okay. It's in your nature. And that was that.

[02:13:29] [SPEAKER_01] What do you think of that? I think that's wild. Okay. This New Yorker profile says that Disney were the ones who employed Henry Kissinger. Sure. And sent him out to do damage. Yeah, yeah. They paid him off. Yeah, it wasn't like Henry did that out of the goodness of his heart.

[02:13:44] [SPEAKER_03] I don't know. He's such a good guy. The film expanded wide on January 16th, 1998.

[02:13:50] [SPEAKER_01] Griffin. That's the weekend we're going to do?

[02:13:52] [SPEAKER_03] Yes. And vaulted all the way up to 15th at the box office. Okay. And it ended up at 5.7. Yeah, about a blackhead.

[02:13:59] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah.

[02:14:01] [SPEAKER_03] Number one at the box office, though. What is it still? Titanic. Titanic. In its, I don't know, fifth week or whatever, it's made about $236 million. It'll probably start to peter out soon, right? No, it's going to... Definitely not 500 more on the horizon. It's hitting about 600 Claras. Number two at the box office is another giant film of 1997. Griffin. It's nominated for Best Picture. It's a Christmas movie. It's doing great. I think it was a Thanksgiving movie.

[02:14:26] [SPEAKER_01] It was a Thanksgiving movie. Is it Good Will Hunting? That's right.

[02:14:30] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Now, let's get a little more interesting. Dig in. Okay. New movie this week. Mm-hmm. Sort of a supernatural thriller. Okay. Starring, you know, one of the great movie stars. I would say it's one of his worst movies. Is it Fallen? Those things were pretty good. They were pretty good, but I mean... Which movie is this? The film is called Fallen. It's a Denzel Washington film directed by Gregory Hoblitt. And it's like...

[02:15:00] [SPEAKER_03] Kind of when... It's like what I love about Denzel Washington genre movies, where it's like, yeah, this is about like a demon that possesses people to kill people. And who does Denzel play? It's like a cop who's investigating. You know what I mean? Like, he will be the grounded center of the movie where he's like, hmm, something weird about this. You know what I mean? But even though this tale is going to be great. Like, deja vu is the same. Anytime we're going to get crazy with it, Denzel will still be playing a relatively normal guy in the movie. Like, he will not have a robot arm.

[02:15:30] [SPEAKER_03] Okay? Griffin? Yes. Yeah. You like Fallen? I've never seen Fallen. John Goodman's in it. I like that part about it. Gandolfini. I've seen it. I watched it on TV. I have no memory of it. Yeah.

[02:15:41] [SPEAKER_01] Have you done all the Denzels? Have you done a full Denzel watch?

[02:15:43] [SPEAKER_03] No, I feel like I have a few I've never seen.

[02:15:46] [SPEAKER_01] Let's see. He's made a lot of movies. The early comedies. The early racist comedies. There's Carp and Copy and Heart Condition.

[02:15:52] [SPEAKER_03] I've never seen those. Yeah.

[02:15:54] [SPEAKER_01] Do you like Denzel?

[02:15:55] [SPEAKER_00] I love Denzel.

[02:15:56] [SPEAKER_03] I mean, who doesn't?

[02:15:57] [SPEAKER_00] I haven't seen all his movies, of course, but...

[02:15:59] [SPEAKER_03] No. There's a few. Never bad. He's never bad. He is truly never bad. He's never bad. I've never seen Power, the Lumet movie. Oh, sure. Which I think he has a small role in. Sure is about that. Richard Gere. I've never seen... I feel like there's an obvious one I've never seen. Like a big one? I've never seen Glory. I've never seen... Glory is good. I mean, it's... One of his two Oscar ones. Yeah. I've never seen John Q. Oh, sure. Which did not get good reviews at the time, but feels like a programmer I should have.

[02:16:29] [SPEAKER_03] Denzel numbers. It was a hit programmer. Yeah. Who's that? John Q. He, like, takes a hospital hostage to get his son's, like, care paid for. Yes. Sort of like a... Right? Like, it's a thriller, but with a sort of social justice kind of angle. It's a hospital hostage movie. Nick Cassavetes is the director, I believe.

[02:16:46] [SPEAKER_00] It's a Cassavetes joint. Famous Entourage and the Hangover Bar 2 star Nick Cassavetes.

[02:16:51] [SPEAKER_01] Of course. He was the third replacement for Mel Gibson. Isn't that right? On what? On Hangover Part 2. Really? That's the part that Mel Gibson was supposed to play. Did not know that. And then Zach Galifianakis protested. So then they recast him with Liam Neeson. Liam Neeson shot the role. And then they needed reshoots. And Liam Neeson was not available, so it ended up being Nick Cassavetes. So that role was cast three times. Number four at the box office is another Best Picture nominee. There's things that live in my brain. No, I know.

[02:17:21] [SPEAKER_01] I know.

[02:17:22] [SPEAKER_03] I feel like we've mentioned it before. Another Best Picture nominee of this year. Another big hit. And a film we've covered on this podcast. Film I like a lot. Feel like you're more mixed on it. It's a late 97.

[02:17:34] [SPEAKER_05] Mm-hmm.

[02:17:35] [SPEAKER_03] Yep.

[02:17:35] [SPEAKER_01] It's a big hit. Yep. It won three Oscars? It won three Oscars. At least two. Won a bunch of Oscars. It won three Oscars. In major categories?

[02:17:43] [SPEAKER_03] Yes, absolutely. Major categories.

[02:17:44] [SPEAKER_01] Major as it gets. Oh, it's as good as it gets. That's right.

[02:17:48] [SPEAKER_03] Yes. Yes. I think it won two. Yes. It just won the two acting awards. It did not win. Two of the big ones. Screenplay. Have you seen it as good as it gets? James L. Brooks. I have.

[02:17:57] [SPEAKER_00] What do we think? It's been ages. I must have seen it like 20 years ago. I remember kind of enjoying it. It's an enjoyable movie. That's the one with Jack Nicholson, right? Correct. Yeah, I was on a bit of a Jack Nicholson trip at the time. Great trip to go on. Doing a Jack attack. Mm-hmm.

[02:18:11] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Number five of the box office is new this week. It's just funny when there's three Oscar, you know, powerhouses because it's January and then two pieces of trash being shoveled onto everyone's doorstep.

[02:18:24] [SPEAKER_00] That's not a nice thing to say about Condoon.

[02:18:27] [SPEAKER_01] This is partly why like January, February got a reputation for being a dumping ground is because the best picture candidates would surge in these months. So the box office was still healthy because those movies were just sort of like blossoming. Right. This is a piece of trash you said? Yeah, I've never seen it. A wet film. It's a wet film. Very wet. It's a wet film. It's an action movie. It's a wet action movie. Mm-hmm. It's not 1997.

[02:18:58] [SPEAKER_01] It's or yeah, this is this is an early 98 release. Early 98, of course. January 98. It's a wet action movie. It's not like a virus. No. Wetter. Wetter. That movie is very naval though. Yeah, it's on a boat or something. This one is wet. This one's wet. This is soaking wet. Is wet the premise? Kind of. Kind of. Yeah. Is there a big wave? Is there an aquatic creature?

[02:19:21] [SPEAKER_03] No, something more prosaic than that, Griffin. More prosaic?

[02:19:25] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. You know what makes us wet? Water. That's true. And where can the water come from sometimes?

[02:19:31] [SPEAKER_03] The sky? That's so true. When it... Rains? That's right. Hard rain? There you go. Okay, there we go. Hard rain, which is I feel... I just remember it being kind of like... It's like a heist movie. It's like a, you know, like an action movie. But it's raining a lot. Is it Keanu and Morgan Freeman? No, that is Chain Reaction. Okay. Another fairly bad 90s thriller starring Morgan Freeman. No, it's of course Morgan Freeman and Christian Slater. There we go. Hard rain. Yeah.

[02:20:00] [SPEAKER_03] Which I've never seen. Randy Quaid, Minnie Driver, right at the same time as Good Will Hunting. Uh-huh. Ed Asner. I bet he doesn't like getting wet. I like that. Betty White? Betty White. This cast sounds awesome. Uh... Yeah. A movie for Ben, actually. Hard rain. Hard rain? You ever seen it?

[02:20:20] [SPEAKER_02] Um, no. Is it a coming?

[02:20:23] [SPEAKER_03] I mean, I guess so. Uh, it's certainly a film where there's a lot of raining and I want to see what the tagline was here. Oh, so it's wet. I see. Oh, here's the plan. Here's the tagline. A simple plan. An instant fortune. Just add water. Well, well, okay. Okay. Baked? Another Ben movie, I assume. Yeah, of course. Yeah, you gotta give in to that one. A film I've never loved, I will say. I enjoy it. Yeah.

[02:20:50] [SPEAKER_03] It would get thrown on a lot in college because it had become such a cult classic by that point. And I would always just kind of be like, guys, there's like a few good scenes, but yeah. It's got a couple really good things. It's not holding together perfectly.

[02:21:01] [SPEAKER_01] Fuck you. Fuck you. You're cool. Fuck you. Is particularly good. Yes. Who's the other guy? Jim Brewer? Uh, Jim Brewer's in it. Harlem Williams is in it. Yeah.

[02:21:10] [SPEAKER_02] And thankfully, yeah, him and Chappelle, they've gone on.

[02:21:14] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, some of our best minds.

[02:21:16] [SPEAKER_03] To do great things. They're fully baked now. Number seven is Wag the Dog. A good movie. Never seen. I think I've seen that one. It's a good movie. Barry Levinson. Planspot for me. Number eight, Tomorrow Never Dies. I have seen. Yes. Fun one. Tomorrow Never Dies. Brosnan. That's the one. Second Brosnan.

[02:21:35] [SPEAKER_00] I'm sure I've seen Bits and Beases of Edge.

[02:21:36] [SPEAKER_03] The one with Rupert Murdoch. I was going to say. Yes. It's a very Fox News-y plot. Number nine, a movie of Griffin Loves, Mouse Hunt. It's just a perfectly crafted film. And then number 10, a film we've covered on this podcast, Amistad.

[02:21:54] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. Covered briefly. One of our briefest episodes. Uh, God. I've kind of been mean to rewatch that movie. It's a good movie. Yeah. It's not perfect. The first hour is like incredible Spielberg.

[02:22:05] [SPEAKER_03] It's got some incredible stuff. Yeah. Um, yeah. But so obviously, Kundun sort of vanishes almost without a trace, except for those Oscar noms. Like, there is the level of respect, I guess, for Marty and for the level of production to be like, you will be getting some Oscar noms in March. Like, I doubt they campaign that hard.

[02:22:23] [SPEAKER_01] But is this a movie where like 50% of its audience saw it either at Academy screenings or on screener VHSs? Right. Possibly.

[02:22:31] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Possibly. Screener VHS. Not a great way to watch Kundun.

[02:22:35] [SPEAKER_01] No, it's crazy that awards used to be handed out based on people watching things on VHS. Well. Yeah. Hard rain actually looks sick. Yeah. This is a Ben movie. I'm sure there's like a 20 disc vinegar syndrome hard rain coming soon.

[02:22:49] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, probably.

[02:22:50] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Torrential rains. Well, yeah.

[02:22:53] [SPEAKER_03] A damn disaster is glowing. That's funny. Wait. So there's both a rain issue and a damn burst? Yes. They couldn't just settle on one aquatic problem? Slick ass flick. I guess if we could make like a series of like wet films for you to watch, we could do that on Patreon or something. Yeah.

[02:23:10] [SPEAKER_01] I mean, I think we could absolutely do that. Yeah. It's directed by Mikhail Solomon, the DP.

[02:23:17] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Nobody liked it. Nobody liked it. I mean, it's like Slater movies in the 90s. It's just generally, if Christian Slater's in your movie, you have a problem on your You do. I mean, if he's elite. Yeah. It's fine if he's, but it's like, oh, oh, is Christian Slater's the star? All the good people pass.

[02:23:31] [SPEAKER_01] I'm just saying it's the same guy who shot The Abyss. You know, instead of shoot water. Well, that's a good point. Yeah. Yeah.

[02:23:36] [SPEAKER_03] It probably is one of those movies that now I watch and I'll be like, this is. It's tactile and, you know, grounded. We never had it better. Yeah, exactly. The geography is so clear. You know, anytime you watch just garbage from the 90s, you're like, yeah, but it's well lit.

[02:23:49] [SPEAKER_04] I mean, look at this. Yeah.

[02:23:50] [SPEAKER_03] These guys had some cameras. They know what to do with the equipment. Yeah.

[02:23:54] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, that's it. We're done. Condemned. I liked it. Is there anything? I liked it. Is there anything you want to say about the 2010s Marty run since you hold that in such high esteem? Yeah.

[02:24:09] [SPEAKER_00] I think, um, Hugo is a nice movie, but I think his last few, especially Wolf of Wall Street, uh, silence, the Irishman, killers of the flower moon. I think each one of them is probably better than the last. And for me, each one was a new high, like a high watermark for Scorsese.

[02:24:36] [SPEAKER_00] When it got to Wolf of Wall Street, I agree with a lot of people in that it felt like almost like a new young filmmaking movement, but from this like 70 something year old master. So, um, and then I, a lot of people thought, okay, it's probably not going to get better than that. And then silence comes out. Well, allegedly comes out like maybe three of us saw it. Um, but I think it is one of the most affecting films of the 2010s.

[02:25:04] [SPEAKER_01] And then that's when I thought hardcore agree. Yeah.

[02:25:06] [SPEAKER_00] That's when I thought, okay, this is, this is it. This is what we're going to remember him for. It's not going to get better than this. And the Irishman comes out and then that entire last 45 minutes to an hour is some of the most depressing filmmaking I've ever seen. And to me, that is what cinema is all about, baby. And then he makes, and then he makes a movie that is the first bit of the Irishman, which is the fun stuff.

[02:25:33] [SPEAKER_00] And the second bit of the Irishman, which is the depressing stuff all at the same time. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm with this take. And I, I just, I can't wait for his next one, knowing what it's about, not just the subject matter in the book, but also like how it's connected to his real life, which I'm sure you guys will get into at some point. So I may not need to go into it now, but it also, it, it also seems like it's going to be relatively contained compared to these last few.

[02:26:01] [SPEAKER_01] Which is exciting.

[02:26:02] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[02:26:03] [SPEAKER_00] Nice to imagine doing something smart. Yeah. Yeah.

[02:26:05] [SPEAKER_01] Um, it's funny to think about this movie being small in relation to what he ends up getting to. I also just, I forgot to throw out this take, but there is something fascinating in, I think, Scorsese relating to the idea of this boy being so sheltered in his development. That's so much of this movie is told from perspective, similar to the way he describes looking out

[02:26:31] [SPEAKER_01] the window, what was going on in little Italy and not being able to engage in reality.

[02:26:36] [SPEAKER_00] And it's so fascinating that you see a shot practically from that perspective in Goodfellas when a lot of the gangster characters are introduced. When a lot of the supporting cast is introduced, it is from, um, I think, uh, a balcony of some sort. Um, and also by the way, so, uh, my wife who I believe you've met, she is not really a movie person except when it comes to Scorsese. Really? Wow. Yeah.

[02:27:02] [SPEAKER_00] She's like a hardcore Scorsese historian to the point where she's like taken my parents around little Italy and, and told them like, okay, and that's the butcher shop he went to as a kid. And that is the specific building where he used to look down from as a kid. And he couldn't go out and play because he was asthmatic. And so I've, I've seen some of those places as well. Yeah.

[02:27:26] [SPEAKER_01] Uh, and they're all unchanged. Little Italy is exactly the same as it once was. That's, that's the rice to riches that Marty went to when he was a small boy right there. You love to bring up rice to riches.

[02:27:37] [SPEAKER_03] Rice to riches is your favorite niche, stupid New York thing to bring up. I feel like.

[02:27:41] [SPEAKER_01] It's also existed for like 20 years. It's the number one thing that feels like it's some sort of money laundering front.

[02:27:46] [SPEAKER_03] Well, yeah, I don't think it just feels like that. I don't want them coming after me. And it has the crazy signs, right? That's like, get the fuck out of here. If you don't want food, go away.

[02:27:57] [SPEAKER_01] It's like wild flavors of rice pudding. And we're blowing up the mics yelling about it. Yeah. Never been, but. Never been? No one's ever been. No one's ever been. You know who's been? I'll tell you the one person I know who loves rice to riches. Who? Ray Romano. Really? When we were filming vinyl, he was like, I gotta take you guys to this place I love. There is a full. And I was like, we're going to go to some legit little Italy place. Nice. And it was rice to riches.

[02:28:22] [SPEAKER_03] There's a full New York Times article from many years ago about how it was definitely set up as a money laundering front, but that the owner likes rice pudding so much that it probably just kind of still exists because he does.

[02:28:32] [SPEAKER_01] It's become a passion project?

[02:28:33] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Even though like it probably doesn't make money. Like, it's just kind of like, ah.

[02:28:37] [SPEAKER_01] It's like Leica.

[02:28:39] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[02:28:39] [SPEAKER_00] It's like Leica.

[02:28:40] [SPEAKER_01] It's like Leica. Thank you for being here.

[02:28:43] [SPEAKER_00] Thank you for having me. Even though your reasons for having, I don't need to do this.

[02:28:48] [SPEAKER_01] It's long outstated.

[02:28:49] [SPEAKER_00] It's welcome.

[02:28:50] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, it's a good bit. Is there anything specific you want to plug? You've been, you've been traveling so much for all the festivals, writing every place. Yeah. I think just like my writing in general. Everyone should read your writing.

[02:29:01] [SPEAKER_00] How do we find it? I guess. I would say, you know, go to x.com, formerly Twitter, which is where I mostly still am. But really, you just like, I don't know, Google me, I guess. Yeah. I do use x. Scroll past the AI results. Oh, yeah.

[02:29:18] [SPEAKER_03] Or pay attention to them. Take a look. I have to say. I do use x, but only for banking. Of course. So come to me to x. Through x for any banking business.

[02:29:27] [SPEAKER_00] I've started using it for my phone calls, which are very secure.

[02:29:30] [SPEAKER_01] I use it for therapy. And that's it. I trust it implicitly. Thank you for being here. Thank you for having me, guys. Thank you for listening. Yes. Thank you.

[02:29:40] [SPEAKER_03] And come on back, of course. And thank God you did with us in the studio this time. Not in Marie's house. We didn't even mention that. Because. We started to set that up. I can't even remember why.

[02:29:47] [SPEAKER_01] It was construction of the skyscraper next door. They were doing. It was so loud. Yeah.

[02:29:53] [SPEAKER_03] Like crazy. No, I remember. I called the guy.

[02:29:56] [SPEAKER_02] Giant jackhammering.

[02:29:57] [SPEAKER_03] They were smashing the old foundation. Right. Right. To build a new foundation. And the guy was like, yeah, yeah. We're using this machine. And it was called like, you know, the killer or whatever. He's like, we're just using it for like three more days.

[02:30:09] [SPEAKER_01] Like it was like. It was shaking the entire room. It was so awful. That was the one where we had to leave and record Slumdog Millionaire at Marie's apartment.

[02:30:17] [SPEAKER_00] No, I am very happy to be here because where else can you look over the shelf and see Buster Keaton and Miyazaki hanging out with Anton Chigurh.

[02:30:24] [SPEAKER_01] See, the big three. That's what it's all about, baby. Tune in next week for Bringing Out the Dead, right? It's not a new release episode. I always get confused at the end of the year. No, it's not. Next week is Bringing Out the Dead. Next week, we will Bring Out the Dead with our friend Alex Ross Perry. Right. Normal takes incoming. Oh, sure.

[02:30:43] [SPEAKER_02] And then recently on Patreon, just a few days ago, we released our Dylan documentary episode.

[02:30:49] [SPEAKER_01] With Jazz, aforementioned. Yes. And coming up is an early Dracula. Where are we at in Drac?

[02:30:57] [SPEAKER_02] We're kicking off our Dracula commentary series.

[02:31:00] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, so it's the first one. It's the Bela Lugosi. Yes. Blah, blah, blah. So check that out. And as always, the flavor breakdown of the Asian experience energy drink is apparently Tibetan goji berries, Asian cordyceps, ginkgo biloba. Cordyceps? That's the fucking Last of Us fungus. I'm telling you what it is. Green tea, yerba mate, and American guinzig. Friggin' sublime.

[02:31:30] [SPEAKER_01] Friggin' sublime.

[02:31:34] [SPEAKER_02] Blank Check with Griffin & David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hosley. Our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas. And our associate producer is AJ McKeon. This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeon and Alan Smithy. Research by J.J. Birch. Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery in The Great American Novel. With additional music by Alex Mitchell. Artwork by Joe Bowen, Ollie Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minnick.

[02:32:04] [SPEAKER_02] Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to blankcheckpod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit. Join our Patreon, Blank Check Special Features, for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us on social at blankcheckpod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter, Checkbook, on Substack. This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Productions.