[00:00:01] Blank Check with Griffin and David Blank Check with Griffin and David Don't know what to say or to expect All you need to know is that the name of the show is Blank Check Consider the coconut... What? The pods and the cast! Ha! Did I do it right?
[00:00:27] Yeah, I think that works. Yeah. Okay, great. Thank you. Wow, good job by me. Perfect. I was going to... they're the three times... they're two times they say it, because I always used to mess up the line of course. I would say consider the coconut, consider
[00:00:40] its leaves, and then people would correct me. I think this was my fault. I think I am the one who transposed the line in my head somehow. And then I would say it, and I think I planted it in your head. I think it's some weird...
[00:00:55] Wait, but what is it really? Okay, so the first time it's consider the coconut, the what? Consider its tree. And then the second time it's consider the coconuts, the trunks and the leaves. So we were mashing the second lines together. Consider its leaves.
[00:01:12] We took every part of what we were saying was correct. And you do have to consider it. We weren't wrong. You should consider its leaves. It's that thing where I got a little disappointed to remember the real line, because I
[00:01:24] thought it was funnier that he goes right to the leaves, like... Because it seems like a sort of weird thing to be like consider its leaves, man. Like, you know... That's the thing. I think that's why we transposed it, because it was funny or a toss.
[00:01:37] But obviously it's great no matter what. And you do have to consider the coconut, obviously. You know what? I mean, the consider coconut, I feel like has been a key bit on this show for so long
[00:01:47] for the majority of its run that when we decided to do Muscular Clements, it didn't even register for me. Oh, we're finally going to consider the coconut. I wasn't even thinking about how much this is the realization of a long held promise to our listeners
[00:02:00] that someday we would in fact consider the coconut long form on this podcast. And what is this podcast? It's blank check. Wow, I'm saying the name. With whom? Griffin and David. And what's it about? Wait, I have to do the spiel? Let's see if you can. Okay.
[00:02:20] Wow. It is crazy that I am freezing up right now, not remembering what this spiel of our podcast is. Oh, so suddenly it doesn't look so easy to be Griffin, does it? No, it doesn't. Okay, it's a podcast about filmographies. Correct.
[00:02:37] Directors who get a series of blank checks for crazy passion projects to see I'm already messing up. Go on, you're correct. Go on. Okay, okay. And sometimes they clear and sometimes they bounce, baby. Great. And this is a maesters on the films of Musker Clements.
[00:02:54] You were not quite word perfect, but I'll accept it. I'll give you a 97. Ron Musker, Ron Clements and John Musker. Another pair that I transpose the names of a lot of the time. I was going to say, I'm sure you've noticed.
[00:03:06] I just don't even say their first names anymore in the intro because I'm convinced I'm going to Macquarie, Macquarie it up every single time. But it is the films of Musker and Clements, Ron Musker, John Clements. Ron Clements, John Musker.
[00:03:19] See, I can't do, I don't even, I resent trying. Yes. I regret and resent myself and I recuse myself from this podcast. It is a mini series called The Pottle Murr Cast. That's right. This is the final episode. And today we're talking about their final film.
[00:03:38] They have now retired from Disney at least. Rumors abound that perhaps one of them is working independently on his own project outside of the studio system. But it sounds like a little thing, right? We were talking about that the other day. He's apparently, let me triple check this.
[00:03:53] I think it's John Musker is hand drawing a short film by himself. That seems like it's like when your dad retires and then he works on a car engine or something. You know what I mean? It sounds like just kind of like a fun retirement project.
[00:04:11] So anyway, it feels like him doing what George Lucas has always promised to do. Yeah. Where he's like, oh, yeah, I'll just make weird short movies about cars. Yeah. No one will know. Yeah. No one. Right. And maybe I won't even show them to people. Yeah. Right.
[00:04:24] Well, maybe he is doing that. But that's not what this is about. Okay. We're talking Moana. We're considering the coconut their final film. Maybe their best. Wow. You think it's their best film? I was debating it while watching it.
[00:04:39] I was debating it while watching it because I feel like it's pretty good. Look, that is this is rarely a claim we get to make on this podcast and rarely a claim we get even close to considering on this podcast. Right.
[00:04:52] We have we have covered very few complete filmographies. Yeah. Only a couple. Right. And by and large, the last film is not their best by and large as a rule filmmakers do not make their best movies at the end of their career. Right.
[00:05:07] In general, even outside of this podcast. Yes. And if this is not their best film, it is at least arguable. It's at least in the conversation. Sure. Okay. Right. They made the little mermaid in Aladdin. But yes, I know what you're saying. Yes.
[00:05:24] I just don't think it's an absurd thing for me to suggest. I don't either. I like it as opposed to arguing that Ricky in the flash is better than Silence of the Lambs. This is at least a conversation you could have.
[00:05:35] Our guest is being so respectful, so polite, but she doesn't understand that on this show chaos reigns. I know, but I'm letting you do your thing. I'm letting you do your thing until I can erupt. Okay. That's fair enough. Okay. Like to car. Ha ha.
[00:05:54] From the Atlantic Lenica Cruz first time on the show. My co-worker. My long time colleague. Your co-worker, but I'm also realizing for the intro, I should have asked what your official title is within the BTS army these days. Do you have a rank?
[00:06:11] I am just one of many, one of many millions. Yes. A mere foot soldier. Thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you. I'm so excited. And when David asked me at the end of last year to be honest, I was like, oh,
[00:06:27] finally I have something to look forward to in 2021. Like I had nothing. I was like, I just need something to pull me over the edge of this year and into the next one. So here we are. I hear that loud and clear.
[00:06:38] I feel like so much of things to look forward to for me now are just like, oh, I'm going to withhold. I'm going to not watch Moana for four months so that when I watch it, when it's time for the episode, it will feel really good.
[00:06:53] It'll hit different. Did you watch it tonight? I did. Yeah. But this is a movie I throw on a lot. Like this is David, you were talking about how you'll just kind of throw on Princess and the Frog as a bomb.
[00:07:04] It's one you'll like flip on a lot. This is a movie where even if I'm just like tired, I'm like, let me watch just like 20 minutes of Moana until I fall asleep. Let me just watch these sequences. Let me watch the whole thing. Right.
[00:07:14] I watched a lot of the songs. I do do that. I haven't watched the movie in total in a couple years. I do both. I jump around. I watch specific scenes. I'll watch just the beginning. I'll watch the whole thing. I listen to the soundtrack.
[00:07:27] It's a movie I find very relaxing and soothing. How's the pain over here? I'll jump around. I feel like I trust your claim then that it's maybe the best of their filmography if you've seen it so many times. I don't think it's a movie.
[00:07:43] Like I don't think it's a perfect film. There are minor issues I have with it, but I also think it's like, I mean, I guess jumping into the deep end here, but I got a DM. You know, I've been poorly managing the social media channels while we do
[00:08:00] an all right. I'm kind of enjoying it. I just I resent every time I have to log on to any form of social media. It stresses me out. I'm trying to push away from all of it and then to whoever ultimately we hire to do the job.
[00:08:15] We're much better at it than I am. But someone DM'd us and said like, so let me get this straight. Griffin likes tenant because the rules don't make any sense and doesn't like Wonder Woman 1984 because the rules don't make any sense.
[00:08:30] And I wanted to just respond yes, correct. Oh, okay. Wait, this is just okay. Right. Some listener right? We've never interacted with it. I don't believe I've ever interacted with before online sent that to him and I didn't respond.
[00:08:44] But in my head, I was like, yes, I do defend that because I think part of at least what we try to do on this show and not I certainly think I feel sometimes I get caught in traps of
[00:08:54] shit, but like you want to judge a movie by what it's trying to be right. Movies exist. You know they can be judged on different criteria based on the relative terms of what type of film they're trying to be and how well they work in that regard.
[00:09:07] There's no overall rules of all good movies need to be this. This is a central tenet of Phil criticism in my opinion. You don't want to be like I have an objective formula that I can plug any movie into and if it fails, you know, then like
[00:09:21] my tests then yeah, that's silly. Yeah, it's right. And sometimes I get, you know, I fall prey to like, oh man, I'm really into this idea of what the movie could be instead. But I feel like very often when I throw out alternative ideas
[00:09:33] they're like, this feels like a cleaner execution of what they're trying to do. That I'm in said I realize after we recorded our flight episode, oh, every complaint I made about flight is just that it's not sully. Right. Well, truly every complaint was a lie.
[00:09:45] It was just this isn't sully, which is not fair because there's only one movie in history that's sully. But this is a film for me where I like everything it's trying to do so goddamn much that it's it's failings for me, which are very slight.
[00:09:58] I am more willing to forgive because I think they come so close to executing something that feels a lot more narratively ambitious than most films of its own. Lenica, I know you like this movie a lot because you used to tweet about a lot. Did I?
[00:10:13] Or maybe you still do. Well, I remember. I remember you tweeting about it or maybe you were talking to me. I cannot remember why I was I feel like I feel about a lot when it came out because I watched it a bunch and it
[00:10:22] was just like, I don't know had a lot of personal meaning for me that year and just seeing like, I don't know, Polynesian culture and just all of that stuff. And so I worried that I was blinded by like literally
[00:10:35] the first time I saw the movie, I was like crying for the first 10 to 15 minutes and I was like, I don't even know what happened. Like there are two songs that are happening already. So I needed to go back.
[00:10:45] But rewatching it like all the all the emotional beats that hit so hard the first time I watched it had the same power. Yeah. Like every time just like tears are being squeezed from my eyes. This movie just hits for me.
[00:11:00] Like I just think the highs of it are so goddamn high and when it's when it's really trucking, it's like it feels just like a static, you know, and it's emotions and it's coming. Yeah. It has true transcendent moments. What were you about to say, David?
[00:11:15] Well, I was, I mean, I feel like we've talked about this on the show and we have as people of fans have noted we've talked about this month in movies a weird amount. Yeah. Not for any intentional reason, but we've talked about movies that came out in November 2016.
[00:11:32] Allied Dr. Strange, I think. What was another one? Griff, the L, the The Prohoven Movie. Was Billy Lynn 16 or was that 17? Wasn't Billy Lynn a summer movie? No, you're right. No, Billy Lynn. That's another one. Yes. Yes. Billy Lynn November 20 November 18 2016.
[00:11:49] This month was just and as you've talked about many times like it's hard to really accurately judge your or or or stick with your first blush opinions of movies you saw in November 2016 right after the election. Mm hmm. Right. That's you know, this is what we've talked about.
[00:12:08] This is a movie I saw a day or two after the 2016 election and I remember just not being in the mood for a Disney movie which is rude of me. I think actually I don't know why I was being such a big baby. I know why.
[00:12:26] I don't think I like ever put my like thoughts down on paper about it, but I remember my takeaway being like, oh, it's good like yeah, it peaks early to I think like it's the best issue songs are at the start, you know and then like but
[00:12:39] like my take being like it's good. I liked it. You know, you were like it's nice. It's cute. It's not like great, but it's good. And then I remember like a year or two later like a lot of my friends who have kids really like this movie. Yeah.
[00:12:53] I think because it is free of Disney princess fraught things that they worry about and you know new parents I guess are like, oh, what should I be showing my kid first? Like, you know, so maybe I think that's a part of it
[00:13:05] but also it's just a very enchanting and pretty movie that their kids really respond to. So I just remember talking to someone who's like, you know what's really good is Moana like Moana is great. And I was like, oh, yeah, Moana was good.
[00:13:18] And I like and then I went back to it and I was like, this is like way better than I remember this is way. Yeah. And then it's probably the first time that I considered that Ron Clements and John Musker had made it.
[00:13:28] You know, more serious right where I was like, oh, well these guys kind of are the master of the modern Disney musical like so maybe like that's that's part of what I'm liking about it. But anyway, that's just it's a boring art but and then
[00:13:43] like I watched it tonight and I was just like sobbing just just a mess. Yeah, I do. I do think that's a thing too of just like friends who have become parents who have kids this movie kind of with that age group is almost on equal footing with
[00:14:02] frozen even if frozen feels like more of a cultural juggernaut you talk to young parents with young kids and they're like it's just Moana and frozen like those are the two and they're the two that are in constant rotation.
[00:14:12] They're the two where the songs are being sung constantly and those parents are also like Moana is a lot better than frozen like from the people who have had to watch this movie 40 times. That was exactly it. They were like, look, I've right.
[00:14:23] I'm in the trenches right now. My kids want to watch five movies total and Moana is the one that holds up the best. That's the one that like is the most rewarding on repeat viewing and in a lot of ways feels the most
[00:14:38] sophisticated and nuanced for me in how it avoids a lot of those trappings that you're talking about and still creates a story that is able to hit the same sort of dramatic eyes build the same comedy the same tension the same emotion without relying
[00:14:54] on a lot of those old tricks and a part of it is for me. It's the thing I really like about this movie above and above all else and David you were talking about this in the princess and the frog episode how they've
[00:15:05] been like working so hard to try to redefine the Disney princess right and make these films a romantic and make the characters more sort of empowered strong headed and what have you to sort of redefine the young you know to make the reward not marriage
[00:15:22] you know is sort of the big thing. Yeah, but also you look at like reviews of when Aladdin came out and when Beauty and the Beast were like finally like a strong minded independent female character one of these Disney movies. She's not wishy washy.
[00:15:37] She's not like Cinderella you know and then you watch those films and they feel very retrograde in a lot of ways and you know there's this constant thing we've talked about where Disney is constantly trying to be like no no we're woke we're woke
[00:15:49] we're woke like we're constantly trying to be better than we were the last movie and part of that is just because these movies hold so much cultural weight they do like shape young minds that I think they're constantly being judged more
[00:16:01] and more harshly as to what those stereotypes and archetypes are that they're perpetuating. This one for me is like such an interesting arc because it really is just about she's right the whole movie right like she doesn't have a giant character flawed there's not a lesson
[00:16:20] she needs to learn the conflict of this movie is her understanding how to be a person. It's not ideologically she has the wrong approach you know it's not that she has a belief that is wrongly held that she needs to be disabused of
[00:16:34] it is that like she understands the weight of the fact that she's going to have to be a leader someday which is something the princess movies never really take into account right right anything less than that sort of being a ceremonial
[00:16:46] title that grants them a bunch of nice dresses and shit that she's like I there are a people that I am responsible for taking care of. And she views I think in the way a lot of us do Ben was just talking about this right before we
[00:17:00] record it but you get to a certain age and you start to reckon with your parents and you're like what did they do wrong and what did they do right and how do I want to be better than them right
[00:17:08] and she's starting to become conscious of the fact that someday this is going to be hers it's not her dad's and she has to make the decisions he disagrees and she's like I'm going to break the rules because I think this is right it's not
[00:17:19] her selfish reasons I think this needs to be done and the movie is her dealing with how difficult it is to be an adult. It's just her like trial and error figuring out how to do the thing she wants to do and how
[00:17:32] to shoulder that responsibility that's a like a pretty heavy thing to make a children's film about. Yeah and to add to that I mean Griffin I feel like this has come up on the podcast for you grew up in New York City.
[00:17:44] I did yes I grew up in New York City yes yeah so I grew up on an I went yes. Yeah exactly so you have a lot of experience with this movie and what we're talking about. I look I got Island time running through my blood
[00:17:55] at all times yeah I get this movie it speaks to me it calls me yeah. But it made me think of like also sort of like leaving behind your hometown and striking out on your own to forge your like your own self right.
[00:18:09] See this is why you like Kiki's delivery service too Ben you like any movie about like trying to you know get out right and go and make it somewhere and like you know it's hard and all that this is like a true coming of age movie
[00:18:21] but wrapped up in an adventure film and I was watching it I was like what other movies have a lead character arc like this and it really kind of is like Luke Skywalker. You know Luke Skywalker doesn't have character flaws.
[00:18:34] Sure yeah oh sure yes yes Luke doesn't it's sure yeah it's the flipper his dad is also a ruler but he's the bad ruler right but it's this idea of like who do I want to be in relation to my parents are what's out there
[00:18:46] for me I want to leave the space I'm in I want to learn more about the world. He ends up on an island ironically he does and he fundamentally I want to do good their moral compass is intact the entire time.
[00:18:57] Literally from the time she's a baby like the first thing she does is protect a turtle like that then right after that that's when the ocean's like I guess come here you are the chosen one. You're right because like when I'm watching
[00:19:10] this movie the first scene is there's a cute little chubby toddler who's like walking around on the beach I'm like this is so cute but like you're there is actual thematic meaning threaded into this like that right the ocean is like yes here's someone worthy right she's choosing
[00:19:26] between this shiny shell in the water that's attracting her it's her you know it's the appeal of the ocean has and then the people back at home that she's trying to look out for and like those two things kind of come
[00:19:37] together but I feel like the first maybe like 15-20 minutes of this movie before she heads out from Motanui is like it's so dense which is why when I rewatched it tonight I had issues when I first watched this like with I
[00:19:51] felt like the pacing of the first 15-20 minutes was just so you know there was just so much happening and I realized like as I was watching it slowly I realized in the first sequence where not we know the way where you are
[00:20:04] where we were you are what we'd like to call consider the coconut yes. Yeah consider the thank you consider the coconut I didn't realize that her you know little little monic character keeps on like making little sailboats and like I didn't see
[00:20:21] that because there's so much else going on with the villagers and and just like I tried to slow down the first chunk of that movie but like it's they get everything in there like you don't need to pay attention all those little details to know she wants to
[00:20:32] go into the to the ocean but like it sets up all these conflicts with her like even within that song she's growing up she's going from toddler to teenager she's being told like you're gonna be ruling this island you're gonna be responsible for these people's
[00:20:45] lives and even within that song she's like she's so ambivalent she you see her at one point seeing her grandmother like by the beach and she she runs to her at first and then the second time she's her grandmother she turns away from her and
[00:20:56] goes to where the people are so it's like she she she goes through the you know coming of age like cycle in the first 15 minutes of the movie and then she has another one. She's helping the dumb chicken what's the dumb chickens name hey hey hey hey
[00:21:10] hey right who we stamp but right yeah but yes it's like she is constantly pulled to the ocean they're always pulling her back but also we're seeing the whole ecology of the like we're seeing them farm and we're seeing them make things and we're
[00:21:23] seeing like how everything works and like it's it's that classic early Disney song of like the work song they love it you know to kick things off with a good work song that kind of like establishes a status quo that thing can be broken but it's funny then
[00:21:38] you know it's impressive to mix that in with like is all this little detail about Moana. Yeah and there's like a thing you know I think the there's the prologue in Tangled where you see her as a little girl and they sold so much
[00:21:56] fucking merchandise of toddler Rapunzel that I think they've said as much that it was like a decree like every one of these movies needs to open with a prologue where the main character is a toddler they just they double merchandise sales if they do that.
[00:22:12] Frozen does that right Moana does that wait there's another of course finding Dory we when remember when Dory is a little a little fish we stand but yes as you said I mean it's it's those three but it's the three modern princess movies have all done that
[00:22:29] and even I mean Tiana does that Princess and the Frog does that. Tiana is a little baby. Yep. Talking to her dad I feel like I still feel like I'm forgetting an obvious one well Zootopia the little rabbit is a little kid. She's a little bunny.
[00:22:44] Yeah and then she's like I want to be a cop. I wonder how Zootopia would go right now. I haven't watched Zootopia in a few years. I've rewatched it like maybe six months ago at the time when it felt like it would be the most problematic
[00:22:58] because I was just like I'm curious how this holds up and it's one of those things are when starts you're just like did we really all fall for this and by the end of the movie you're like fuck it works. Right well that's the Disney thing
[00:23:09] I mean obviously it just it so works on just a basic story level even if the semiotics of it are a little bit dodgy right sorry but back to more back to the little Moana. But no but yes to Lenica's point it's just like the prologue thing
[00:23:24] is just like at this port a corporate mandate right that's like part of your budget you're not going to get the green light and let's you figure out how to do an opening number with the toddler so that we can sell those
[00:23:34] dolls and shit and the fact that it actually establishes so much not just in the background but as you said Lenica about the characterization and like the whole thing of being drawn to the water it feels like I even think before seeing this movie
[00:23:50] I expected it was going to be like a Billy Elliot thing of like I want to be a sailor and the dad's like no you need to be a princess and she runs away in like rebellion right and it's like no she takes to
[00:24:00] the water because that's the thing she thinks needs to be done to help the people of the island but also there's this odd nature nurture thing because they talk about how the people of modern new a used to be adventures used to be sailors they've repressed
[00:24:15] that within themselves and there's something and neatly just drawing them like it's they're going against the very temperament of their island and their culture by shutting off this part of themselves. And also just happy that that neither of her parents die because I do feel
[00:24:33] like there's so many Disney movies propelled by that by parent peril the grandma just grandma peril. Yeah, but it's not really peril. She's not in peril. She's just old and you know, yeah, right? You know, it's a little more serene what's happening with the grandma but it's true.
[00:24:49] There is there is a little peril. You're right. You're right. She stays there with her. You know that all movie. Yeah, right. There's that thing. There's the fact that the grandmother kind of feels like she's letting go of her own volition to a certain degree
[00:25:00] and that she also the grandmother uses her death strategically to give Moana the chance to escape. Sure, she's like, I got you. I'm just going to die. Right. It's not a formative trauma moment. It's like, hold on, just get died quickly. You sneak out the back.
[00:25:16] I also think though that we should say like as much as she's, you know, concerned with her people her grandma represents like independence and going after things that are even bigger than the island, you know, like, I don't know. I just the grandma character at that moment.
[00:25:35] That's when I really start the ball. Oh, oh, yeah. But that gets to like, I think one of the reasons this movie is so potent with kids because it is kind of a different story than these films usually tell, which is like, you're a kid, you go like,
[00:25:50] why are all these adults telling me what to do? I understand. I could do this on my own. Everyone should just let me do what I want to do and then she goes out and does it and she's proven wrong, but she finds out it's very difficult.
[00:26:02] It takes a lot of work and there's something like for a kid. I think it's like a good struggle to watch someone just have to really deal with how do you actually get things done? You learn by doing and sometimes you end up on the right island.
[00:26:18] Sometimes he bounce baby, you know. So some context about this movie. Clements and Musker after making The Princess and the Frog in 2009 wanted to, as I believe we talked about last week, make an adaptation of Terry Pratchett's novel, Mort, which is about a boy who works for death.
[00:26:37] It's a great book. It's a discworld book. They could not get the rights. It's too bad. I would love to see it. I love that book and it would be super cool. So instead they're deterred so they're like, okay, we need to think of original ideas.
[00:26:50] Like we can't get tied into a rights battle or what it right, you know. So the thing that they pitch to John Lasseter, not to hug and Lasseter, the head of Disney at that point is a movie about Maui specifically. That I think they were the most
[00:27:08] interested in the demigod, whatever they had like read up on the mythic figure Maui. That was their original way into the movie. Was it was a Clements? I mean, he got into Polynesian mythology and it sort of sounds like they wanted to do something like Hercules,
[00:27:23] but with Maui do a more straight sort of retelling of the myths. Yes. And then they learned in that I'm reading this off the internet, but they learned in their research that people of Polynesia stop making long distance voyages about 3000 years ago. I don't know specifically what
[00:27:42] they're learning here, but you know what, right? Like, I guess they were like, why was there a transition from like seafaring people to more island based people? Is that does that make sense? Because that seems to be the narrative thrust that they have come upon
[00:27:57] is like this seafaring people who have stowed their boats away. Right. Like that's that's the big reveal at the end of the first act of Bologna is, you know, they have these boats and you know, that's that's the sort of part of her
[00:28:12] that she's long sort of wondered like why do I want to explore when my dad's always telling me to stay home? Well, that's the other thing as they said, they just came to the idea that it should be about Maui and the daughter of a cheap
[00:28:26] which I have to imagine is Disney going, you have to put a princess in this. But the other thing I should mention is that Tico Iti wrote the original screenplay for the film and then dropped out to because he had a kid and he was making
[00:28:41] what to do in the shadows what we do in the shadows and he says he has nothing to do with the movie as it's that it was a family movie. It was like about a girl. Yeah, they were like rewrote it. Yeah. Right.
[00:28:53] It was like a girl with six brothers and I think it was going to be more family oriented. I don't know. He has some like special thanks or additional story material credit, but this is also a movie where there's only one credited screenwriter but like seven
[00:29:06] story by credits. It feels like it just went through a bunch of different drafts and different takes and different angles and different writers. Jared Bush, that's the final credit. Right. Who's now just sort of like a Disney guy. Right. He had like five sitcom credits
[00:29:23] before this and pretty like you know, a baby Bob the sitcom that was about the E-Trade baby. It was like shit like that and then he did like this. He I think big hero six and to Topia like he's just a Disney Story Trust guy now.
[00:29:41] Yes, he is. Yes. Anyway, so that's all I really know. I mean, the only thing I'm interested by that I don't know much about is and and Lenica like we've been you know, a lot of these movies that come into Musker made and we've
[00:29:53] been talking about this the entire time like Aladdin Princess and the Frog and then there's other Disney movies like there's always the anecdote that they like went to the place that the movie is set in. Like we we spent two weeks in in China for Mulan.
[00:30:07] It's always two weeks. Trust us. We did our work. So apparently they they they went all you know, they went to Fiji. They went to Samoa. They went to Tahiti. I don't I don't know much about their research trips or whatever. It does seem a little more in
[00:30:21] depth than the usual Disney Vacation. It seems like they put more. Yeah, it seems like they took this one more seriously. Like I know that they created I think they call it like the Oceanic Trust and they had anthropologists and linguists the Oceanic Story Trust. That's right. Yes.
[00:30:38] Yes. And and just you know, I think had a lot of notes from locals and historians who knew what they were talking about and like rewrote whole chunks like you know, Maui was supposed to be bald and short or something. Like I know people complained
[00:30:51] about how he was designed in the end, but just little things like that that most audiences wouldn't notice that they for some reason wanted you know, but they wanted fidelity for with the complaints about his final design that he sort of is he resembles Dwayne Johnson
[00:31:10] that he's sort of like gigantically big because I do see like most of the it's the chunkiness right. Right. Most of the art of Maui he's more of just a regular man like right. I think it's that he's like a stereotype and was you know
[00:31:25] designed to just like very heavy. Right. Right. Right. I mean I do I feel like that's partly the Dwayne Johnson thing that's sort of sort of you know sad reality of modern animation where like they celebrity if I things a little bit more you know what
[00:31:41] I mean like the genie doesn't look like Robin Williams right but like right they like to slip in a few kind of like look can you get it like it's the rock like you love the rock right here he is but also like the rock is
[00:31:53] ripped and Maui is a little more built like a brick wall you know yes that's true. Yes. See it's not like he exactly looks like the rock at all. Yeah. The eyebrow is the thing that actually is the most egregious the face is like I mean they
[00:32:06] they're clearly mimicking his expressions like maybe they just didn't want a Maui who is super ripped with like the exact physique of the rock half naked for most of this movie or something I don't know. Yeah that's also I mean they might have been trying actually to avoid
[00:32:21] making him look exactly like a rock. Maybe they're just making more room for tattoos. That's all right. They do have this this very fun idea that his right like the tattoos are like visual story. So yeah and like and so yes he's a big canvas that makes
[00:32:39] that makes some sense. I do remember vague I vaguely remember right the conversation about this when the movie came out because he looks like a rugby player. I mean he looks conversation about everything which is unavoidable with these movies and I think
[00:32:54] they always try to do this thing where it's like the movie is always announced as we're finally going to make a movie about this culture but it's not really about that culture we made up a fake country a fake city a fake island.
[00:33:07] So we're sort of taking elements from mythology and we took all these research trips but also it's fictional so don't get angry at us. We did go for two weeks about though. It looks like this new movie they have Riot in the Last Dragon
[00:33:20] which like I hope is good like there's lots to be except but that's another one that's set in like a mystical. It's like Southeast Asia. Yeah. Without anyone actually identifying any place geographically and like I get that look whatever like that's fine like I mean you know
[00:33:38] the I hope that they tell an exciting and interesting story but yes sometimes if you wonder like are they just trying to cover their ass in this kind of half-ass ambiguous way. Well it's I think it's also the issue of like to some degree
[00:33:52] they bring this upon themselves because when these movies are announced that's always the first thing they talk about like they always go like we got so interested in the history of this culture we wanted to make a movie about it we were so respectful
[00:34:04] we did so much research and that's always like the first step they take out you know the and same with Coco I mean it's just like across Disney at large I feel like they always start the messaging with that because there's such a public relations company but then
[00:34:20] they write they make the expectation so hard on themselves I'm not saying they deserve more leeway but it's just like to a certain degree the knives are out by the time a first trailer came out and that's like we talked about me Princess and the frog was
[00:34:33] like the most sort of stepping on rakes of any of these movies in its launch this one I feel like was genuinely largely positive but of course there was like a lot of you know pushback on different elements. I do feel like the reaction was
[00:34:50] broadly positive this film right. I'm trying to remember this yeah it was all the little things and like the other thing was like the Maui costume with the Ted like that was the most that I can remember like I don't I don't think
[00:35:04] that there was anything very serious like they you know with the casting they they went to such great lengths like you were saying Griffin just to cast mostly like people of Polynesian descent or you know and and just making it as faithful
[00:35:20] in that way or at least signaling that they're you know that they cared about like honoring this culture these cultures plural. But yeah and even the fact I mean even if the final product doesn't really bear his thumb prints at all the mere fact that they started
[00:35:38] by going to taiko a tt signals a kind of like maybe we shouldn't just guess here you know. Yeah I mean that will get to the shirt because that's the worst merchandise spotlight will ever do in the history of the show. I feel like the the coconut
[00:35:53] guys what are they called the Kamatoa Kakamora Kakamora I feel like there was some like unease with that but but right because they're like quote unquote like pig me's right you know yes the thing the thing is they are also coconut pirates which is great
[00:36:13] you know like it's it's such a funny animation concept like you know and and like the minute you see them you're delighted but like I don't you know I don't think but yes I remember right I was I mean you know I read up on a bunch of
[00:36:30] articles and I was trying to find like the most critical ones from the time the film came out just to try to get the perspective as a stupid white person that I don't neatly have and and I feel like a lot of the sentiment was
[00:36:40] like if you want to do funny little coconut guys then come up with a new name but when you're attaching the funny visual of little coconut minions to a name that has a sort of cultural history and one that's a little bit delicate to begin with it then
[00:36:56] it gets messy. Oh does the does the name Kakamora have yes a history too. Okay. I thought they just made that up that's the thing. No I think Kakamora specifically tied to a certain type of pygmy legend. I'm trying to find it because
[00:37:11] the only problem is you Google Kakamora you just see Moana the cute little guy. It may just be the name of a tribe. I'm not sure if it's specifically attached to like anything but like they may have used a real word because it sounds like coconut
[00:37:31] right like later anyway. Right. I do remember the Kakamora coming under some but yes by the standards of some of these Disney projects that I would say often feel like they're just kind of blundering for and by the standards of this mini series that we've done when
[00:37:52] you think about Aladdin with its like all white cast and it's you know myriad just completely like blithe ignorance you know right like you know to the defensiveness of its how it's portraying people and you know how it's singing about them like
[00:38:07] to this and to think that they were made by the same person in my lifetime. It is kind of crazy. They just the arc of that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean this movie I was like looking at it to be it has like less than 10 speaking roles.
[00:38:21] It's one of the things you don't really realize until you step out of just like this way is a very contained cast and half the characters don't talk. I think that's why I was initially underwhelmed because right once she leaves there's really just her and Maui and
[00:38:35] then you meet the crab Tamatoa but that's it. You know the villain obviously doesn't speak like quote unquote villain like barely a villain obviously and the chicken doesn't speak except he clocks and he is voiced by Alan Tudyk of course. Right and the crab and the
[00:38:52] chicken are the only two white voice actors in the whole movie. That's true. And that's and that's it and like I think that may have been one like probably on fairly one reason I sort of like yeah well you know kind of tapers off because then
[00:39:05] she's just you know on a voyage but the solitude is interesting you know in retrospect like that's that sort of a curveball for a movie like this. Lenica I'm curious because you were talking about seeing this for the first time and being overcome with the emotions from
[00:39:23] the get go what is sort of I mean you are you are Polynesian so I am like Pacific Islander yeah like you know from Guam like grew up and I spent time in Hawaii like I have family who are Samoan and you know
[00:39:36] just when I saw that means so much of this like I realized that even though I'm not Polynesian so like when I first heard the first song coming over the you know the Disney and then like that that imagery was like immediately started triggering
[00:39:52] tree because I was like it sounds like like Chamorro sounds like a language that I'm familiar with growing up and I'm hearing it in a Disney movie movies that I just took for granted that I wouldn't see characters who you know looked like me or
[00:40:05] whatever in that very just like simple way but yeah when I saw just I was I was like I was floored just seeing the animation and the way that the characters looked and seeing they just looked like my a lot of my family
[00:40:22] members so just on that level I was like not prepared I guess and it just it felt that it felt like the place looked real but it looked like you know a place I've spent time in growing up and and so in that way
[00:40:40] as someone who tends to be skeptical about or cynical about representation stuff like I it just silenced all of that in my mind for for the whole movie pretty much and my family members too were like we're so excited seeing just like I when I
[00:40:57] saw Moana baby Moana I thought of my little cousin who was about like Moana's age at the time and looked so much like her and then I saw the grandma and she looked so much like my step-grandma and who had died that year and so it
[00:41:09] was just like she looked kind of like her she kind of talked like her she kind of sang like her dance like her and so yeah like I it's hard for me to separate the first time I saw Moana from like all of those that
[00:41:21] that just hodgepodge of feelings had you grown up like a Disney fan or what you know like yeah I the first the first the movie I ever remember seeing was Aladdin and I watched Aladdin every single day until I got another VHS which was Pinocchio then watched
[00:41:39] Pinocchio every single day until we got I remember I like remember we had an order of like VHS's and Aladdin was the first one so it was funny that we mentioned you mentioned earlier like same director yeah and yeah exactly and and little mermaid obviously
[00:41:55] like just all these these Disney movies but I was just and was more of an early Disney movie person so you know when you're growing up and you want to dress up as Disney characters like the closest that I could dress up what it was like
[00:42:06] Pocahontas which is problematic and you know just like it was Pocahontas and Mulan was like oh these are the closest things to like people are like where do you dress up as it's like oh I'm a Mulan can't you tell because I'm like Asian or
[00:42:19] you know Pocahontas because I'm brown like you know that kind of stuff and so it was just like really cool I got how old was old as I want I came out you know I was my late 20s and I was like my little cousins can dress
[00:42:32] up as a character who actually looked them was just like so emotional it's the most obvious shit in the world but it is just so insane how much these movies are just like the first thing so many kids in this country and around the world are
[00:42:51] exposed to like in terms of a movie like not in terms of things they see but that's also like understandably why you know cultural critics take these movies to task because they do actually change brains these movies you know it's not like arguing over whether or
[00:43:09] not the cause violence it's really like these movies do imprint on kids at very early ages and give them ideas of who they are in the world it's 2021 Griffin can we retire the Joker bit can we unretire the Joker bit or whatever can the Joker return
[00:43:24] you want to retire being retired yeah can we just talk about the Joker again surely he won't come back and cause so dangerous David it's so dangerous Lenica we bleep the Joker's name and if we're not retiring the bit I'm so sorry Ben it's a post
[00:43:41] world and I think we're okay we you know we'll bleep that that's what we'll bleep we'll bleep that name right well fine we'll bleep him I just I'm so worried because he is so twisted this guy and the things that make other people cry they make him laugh
[00:44:00] I know I know it's terrible but like I'm just I just want to go into do you know what he calls coronavirus it was the number one comedy in America Joker got it out I don't like it that's why I think it should be banned
[00:44:15] Ricky T he doesn't have boundaries yeah he doesn't have any boundaries sometimes he misses Lenica Lenica the thing you were saying about the Pocahontas Halloween costume it reminded me when Pocahontas came out for whatever reason all the girls in my graded school liked Pocahontas's friend more than Pocahontas
[00:44:37] there's a characters at the very beginning who's like why aren't you marrying Cocoa mom and she looks vaguely like Pocahontas but her dress is a little different and she's got bangs I don't even remember this character her name is Nakoma Nakoma Nakoma Nakoma Nakoma wait so they
[00:44:53] liked her better so they wanted to dress up as her instead so several girls at my school that's why I said she has she has bangs and her dress is a little different right her dress is like a two piece is that what it is
[00:45:04] maybe yeah she's got yes she has a two P a two piece yes yeah Oh her I remember her I think the bangs were a big part of it she really I think just has like the one scene at the beginning talking about Cocoa
[00:45:15] but several girls in my grade I'm sure it was one girl started and the other girls were like I'm going to do because I don't want to be left out bought the Pocahontas costume and modified it so that they could say they were not being Pocahontas for Halloween
[00:45:27] they were being the coma for Halloween. Oh my God I didn't I missed this whole discourse I mean this was a discourse I think limited to fucking five girls in my grade and six in first grade or whatever I'm sure it happened elsewhere
[00:45:39] I'm sure this was a thing I feel bad for ignoring the coma love the bangs I want to I want to point out I looked up Nakoma on the Disney Wikipedia she is the first human best friend to a Disney princess that is how sad
[00:45:55] the life of a Disney princess was until the 90s your friend was an animal or like maybe a plant like you got nothing I guess sleeping beauty has some fairies right she gets the fairies but no human peer and they're talking animals right though I know but like
[00:46:14] what if you want to be like ah my legs hurt you know you can't talk to a fish about that well I guess I guess Ariel doesn't have legs either so I take it back but you know in general yes that's just a funny milestone no human friends
[00:46:27] even Jasmine doesn't have human friends she only has a tiger it's like a big old tiger and her dad because her dad's a friend yeah but that's why Guy Ritchie added Nasim Pedrat in a character that took America by storm yes that's true I forgot about that
[00:46:44] but in you could argue that Jafar is Jasmine's closest human friend yeah by default he's the only other human who's not related to her who lives in the back he kidnapped her that's like you know that's that's intimacy and he's not very nice to her yes
[00:47:01] no that's a damn it she fucking hates him but he is by default if she just wants to talk to another human who's not her dad yeah anyway sorry Nikoma okay yes Nikoma we've come a long way from Nikoma we have we have come along although Moana
[00:47:15] also is fairly kind of friendless she's got I mean there are the kids there are other people yeah her best friend I guess is a pig the ocean is a friend of hers the oceans are friends she's friends of all people can you imagine
[00:47:29] being friends with the ocean yeah the whole ocean is your friend high five the ocean man yeah I mean it's pretty cool you can't drown because the ocean is just like I'm not gonna get out of there get out of me I mean look at David's background
[00:47:42] his background is little baby Moana trying to touch the ocean with its her oldest friend yeah the abysse tentacle coming out you could high five you could even low five you could too slow it Moana I should I should also mention there is Lilo and stitch
[00:47:57] this is not Disney's first film you know like to the Pacific Islands right I mean Lilo and stitch is is contemporary which is really unusual obviously like that's that's practically unheard of for Disney but but I am no expert I haven't seen Lilo and stitch in
[00:48:15] so many years so I can't even talk about I know you love it Griff I love it Lilo and stitch was a big deal also because I came out when I was like 12 I guess and I just moved to Hawaii and so it was like
[00:48:28] oh shit like Lilo and stitch was everywhere it was like they got the pigeon down they have like everything but I also haven't seen it in a long time so I think that movie is perfect I watch it a lot I'd be curious to hear
[00:48:41] what you think of it today Lenica I do think that movie is so interesting because it like slipped through the cracks I spoke erroneously in a previous episode saying that I thought it was animated in Hawaii which is clearly just me conflating where it's set with
[00:48:54] where it was made but the thing I knew was that it wasn't done by the main animation studio and what it was it was that they built an animation studio at Disney World in Orlando mostly so that doing tours of it would be an attraction for people
[00:49:10] going to the theme park and I think only three movies were ever produced there and it was like goofy movie Lilo and stitch and I think Mulan was the only like main one and Lilo and stitch was sort of supposed to be like
[00:49:25] a movie to let them do so there was a reason to keep those studios open and it was a rare year where there were two Disney animated films because it was the same year as treasure planet and that movie is a much smaller story it's contemporary
[00:49:38] it's a lot more psychological which means I think it wasn't it's not a big Brassy Disney musical that gets folded into their whole princess right and it didn't get the same sort of calculations of you need to do this we have to avoid this
[00:49:51] and it does feel like because of that there was less meddling and I don't it feels more culturally respectful than a lot of them that may sure but it's also smaller scale because right they're not trying to represent everything but this movie starts out with an entirely serious
[00:50:11] like dramatic prologue the story being told the myth of Maui sure right we talked about the way this these movies start and there are a couple different kind of starter pack openings that they tend to pick from there's the the workers song right where you have like
[00:50:31] the guy is picking the ice at the beginning of frozen yeah the fathoms below and and the crewman at the beginning of Little Mermaid and right Pocahontas yes you have they kid gets told a story this is this is the legend and then that's you know
[00:50:48] this sort of conflates that with the the very dramatic epic back story mythology opening but it's the thing I mean we of course when we did our Wonder Woman episode years ago we talked about how Wonder Woman and Moana have a lot of similarities
[00:51:04] but it's the same kind of thing where it's like you drop all the heaviest mythology stuff at the very beginning you do it in this sort of like cliff notes sort of hitting the high points in a sort of visual montage kind of way and then you
[00:51:17] immediately pull out to little girl Moana everyone else is terrified by the story and and she's like excited but she she she she likes it yeah right everyone else is crying right you start considering the coconut her dad played by Tamara Morrison the great Tamara Morrison who
[00:51:37] it does not do the singing of course because Christopher Jackson from Hamilton George Washington does the singing but he is he is her her dad I love Tamara Morrison I feel like I've been sticking up for him a lot lately because of Bo he's Boba Fett
[00:51:51] his Boba Fett yeah her and her dad wants her to be and we talked about where you are we we talked about the setup of this move that which is great I think I know that's why I'm trying just I'm trying to catch this up to the grandmother
[00:52:05] I think is like the first major scene we need to talk about Rachel House Rachel House who's so fucking good is always so good but having watched soul recently these are two movies where she arguably gives the standout vocal performance and they're entirely different performances
[00:52:23] Lenick have you seen soul yet not yet she's very good in soul she's no it's fine she's a lot of fun in soul she's got a oh man she's I mean Rachel House obviously people might also know her from Tech of Waititi's movie she's in she's so funny
[00:52:38] and hunt for the Wilder people unbelievable she's really really fun and or Ragnarok but yes she's great but these are like I mean just two really funny full-bodied voiceover performances that sound entirely different from each other and different from her normal speaking voice yes absolutely the I was
[00:52:58] yeah she's not an old grandma like she's she's she's she gives good grandma in this movie yeah not easy yeah she's she's in her forties or whatever but I love I love the grand the I want song you know how far I'll go which was the sort of
[00:53:17] that was like the Oscar nominated song right that was the should have fucking one I cannot show the one city of stars oh my God I mean it's this crazy thing because I the whole year figured it was going to win because I thought that
[00:53:31] because it was the year of Hamilton he had three quarters of the Egot right it was you know Hamilton was at this like you know deafening cultural moment the Manuel Miranda did the music and lyrics for these movies along with God God O Patea Foy I I'm
[00:53:52] probably going to struggle pronouncing some of these but it's basically it's it's it's a music group called Tivaca is basically doing all the music with him and but I just figured like they'll they the Oscars want Lin Manuel Miranda on the stage like right like don't surely
[00:54:09] this is that you know but the whole La La Land thing kind of overwhelmed it I guess they were just like well that's the musical we have to give the musical the best song right even though city of stars is this sort of like so fucking boring
[00:54:22] you know kind of forget about it's okay like it's you know it's like half a song La La Land became such a lightning rod and it became like a love it or hate it you have to defend or you have to attack at movie
[00:54:34] and I like La Land I think it's fine like it's always been a movie where I was just a little underwhelmed by it but I think it's fine I have no need to really attack it I think it's lacking in a lot of ways
[00:54:44] but if you're going to give it to a fucking La La Land song over this song give it to one of the good ones which is so good give it to one of the fucking good ones city of stars so good and boring Letica
[00:54:56] what do you think of La La Land I don't I forget where you landed on La La Land I love loved La La Land saw it once in theaters at thought it was just like that I was like this is the best movie ever seen
[00:55:06] and then I never saw it again and I also felt conflicted by the stuff afterward was very happy at last so that's I mean that's where I was well yeah of yes I mean in retrospect in retrospect I really like La Land I think it's a great movie
[00:55:24] it's not as good as I don't you know I think Moonlight was the incredibly worthy winner I the more we get away from that insane moment which was obviously just like the most incredible television like it was so crazy to watch it it's it sucks so hard
[00:55:41] that that happened I hate that that happened no no no it was it was sad yeah you had to be so gracious like onstage yeah right yeah exactly instead of just turned into this whole right like weird trauma playing out in front of everyone and again
[00:55:56] very dramatic to watch it like I'll never forget watching it alone on my couch because Forky had gone to bed I was a I thought it was a joke at first yes exactly it was just like what like that weird tingly feeling where you're like
[00:56:09] is something just going horribly wrong like is someone being weird I think I immortalized that on on slack David because we were both covering it was like I don't know what time it was midnight or something yes like for Forky my my partner we call my partner Forky
[00:56:24] on this podcast Monica had gone to bed because it was like yeah Lala lands wrapping this up you know what I mean like Emma stone at one Damian Shazel she was like alright I'm out of here and yes I remember like you and I just like screaming
[00:56:36] at each other being like what is this yes my my best friend and at that time neighbor Sophie fader I knew she wasn't watching the Oscars because she didn't have a TV and it happened and I called her up and I was like can I tell you
[00:56:52] what happened because this is going to be the only chance I ever get to tell this to someone who doesn't know and just recounted what had just happened on TV and she was like that's the most bizarre sounding thing in the world I watch it
[00:57:04] once every two months and when I put it on I have to watch it five times in a row it is just like it is some like incredible Renaissance like like portrait like landscape painting where there's so many little things going on in the background Dwayne Johnson
[00:57:20] is like yeah he's sitting Dwayne Johnson is sitting in the front row practically right he's one of the one of the shocked faces that in the the tableau right you just have to rewind it and go like this time I'm just going to focus on who's sitting
[00:57:32] in the front row this time just the people and and was president by then right yes yes he was he'd been sworn in so fucking weird that was the weirdest thing I know you and I had talked about it and we were like to some degree
[00:57:46] it's kind of sad because now you just know that's the best thing that will ever happen at the Oscars like as dumb Oscar dorks like you and I I are David it's just like well that's it there's never that's never going to be a moment
[00:57:57] like that ever again and I've now seen what will be the best moment of my entire lifetime but I also hate it I wish moonlight it just won and then they would because the people would have been blown out of their seats by that alone yeah
[00:58:08] do you know what I wish would have happened yes what I wish they had given best original song to city of stars and Justin Horowitz had gotten out there and gone like thank you very much this song I put my heart and soul into it
[00:58:19] and then the ocean rose up into the Kodak theater and plucked the Oscar from his hands and handed it to Lin Manuel and then also splashed them yeah spit in this yes now that's too much I I just just yeah Justin Horowitz rules he so that his
[00:58:38] first man scores one for the ages yeah and he won the Oscar for that did he not for first man yeah did he not no I don't think so poor first man got you know screwed over because Mark Rubio got mad at it I know
[00:58:51] they should have given Justin Horowitz the Oscar for first man and not for the city of stars didn't he also he won score that same year yeah he did yeah he did his score is great it's a great score I agree the score is better
[00:59:02] than city of stars city of stars is a boring song city of stars is a just a dull song anyway where we're moving on to the song we're talking about is is how far I'll go wise I just want to say grandma grandma I just feel like
[00:59:19] the combination of the character animation and the vocal performance it's like the moment this character comes on screen you're like I like her I like her she's fun she's got a unique energy I know everything about her and it's like a lot of these movies have
[00:59:34] like the kooky old grandma character right yeah fun old lady yeah right but it's like are they insane or are they are genius right and an older person who has almost mystical qualities in their oldness like are they wise or right do they have magic powers right
[00:59:49] she's got this giant back piece like she's she's the only one who really understands Moana but I I love that she is clearly wise from the get go like she is in her own power she's funky she's funky as how real funky she likes to color
[01:00:04] outside the lines but there's never the thing of just like oh this old Cout she's like people think I'm a cout I know what's fucking going on she notices everything yeah dude I love when she's like he's my son I don't have to listen to him yes
[01:00:16] I'm like oh yeah right no you don't everything about her is cool and she calls herself the village crazy lady like she's happy to lead into her her status on the island like when she needs to but she reveals to Moana of course she brings her
[01:00:32] into the cave she shows to the ship she reveals to Moana that that's that's the background of her people that they were explorers they used to sail this is which I think is great too now what do you guys think of we know the way which is not
[01:00:46] sung by a character it's sung by Lin-Mann well Miranda and Tivaca like you know they they sort of take over and it's but it just I I talked to a friend who objected to Lin-Mann Wells singing was just like I wish someone else was singing that song but
[01:01:03] what do you guys think of this song this song really always gets me this is the one I weirdly thought was going to be the biggest song coming out of the screening I love song yeah this hook this really hooked me I I and I like his voice
[01:01:15] I can understand the argument against it because he's you know he's he's like he's a rapper he's great at writing songs and he's he's right he's a fine singer but he's that has never been his strong suit right his voice is so charming when he sings this though
[01:01:29] you singing about these islands I'm like I know you feel nothing with Lynn he's got a very thin voice but because he writes the songs himself he writes songs that fit into his vocal range and also because he is not naturally like you know like an eight octave
[01:01:44] singer or whatever he does there is a very disarming sincerity to his singing because he's working really really hard and it's really genuine that is that is absolutely what people love and hate about him that is exactly it's the sincerity right that's what drives some people
[01:02:02] crazy I think and obviously connects for so many people because he's it is it is hard to overstate how and of course I know listeners remember this it wasn't that long ago but just how inescapable he was like and remember the SNL episode right around this moment
[01:02:21] get all that like it's all I mean it is very difficult to survive something like that I would say as a famous person you know what I mean like just the the complete overexposure everyone seeing and weighing in on your work you know it's almost good that Hamilton
[01:02:37] then took years to actually come to the screens like is like that was the only thing that kind of delayed you know the total sort of staggering conquering force of Hamilton I guess but Jesus I just saw it for the first time yeah sure on Disney pretty good
[01:02:58] yeah you enjoyed it well that's great Hamilton's pretty good it lived up to the hype but also the sort of like clown and on Lin Manwell's earnestness the biting of the lip all that sort of stuff I feel like came after this movie really that's
[01:03:12] when it started to like percolate people thought the Oscar was going to be the anointment the end of the year he didn't win it but then people still start going like is there too much of this guy I think when the movie came out
[01:03:23] and you hear his voice in this song it kind of felt like well of course I mean they're not going to not have him sing he's got like the best selling album of the year he's not going to play a character this is the one place
[01:03:35] they could fit it in it's fine and I think now when you watch it a couple years later you're like I can't stop thinking about the fact that it's Lin Manwell like now it's the one element that kind of sticks out of the movie weirdly even more
[01:03:46] than the rock of it all I don't mind it I like it I like it I don't mind it either I just think that's where people if they get frustrated by it it's just like I'm very much thinking about the fact that Lin Manwell is singing now yes
[01:03:59] it depends on what happens this year but 2021 is kind of the next year for him like this year is like four things coming out right or something or maybe he does and I worry again that it's weirdly all packed together and people are going to
[01:04:12] get furious with him because he has Vivo which is the the Sony movie right the animated film that he did the music for and and he also is in Kanto which is the the Disney movie that he did the music for and then in the heights suppose
[01:04:28] is definitely hitting this year because Warner Brothers is putting that out come and tick tick boom is going to be on Netflix it like I just wonder I mean I he like he's only directing that so like it's a little different but still like it's
[01:04:42] it's a lot of him it's a lot of him I wonder how it'll go but I think the songs in this are so great I love the songs in this I think it's a great score I think they're so him yeah they are that right
[01:04:54] there's sort of like storytelling element to them like you know the the full sentence you know we are to you know like that I I need to like look up the lyrics to do it exactly but like and I also just like the Disney tradition of like
[01:05:08] let's get a big shot like you know like no no no more messing around and like kind of cheaping it on the songs like who's hot right now on Broadway let's bring them in like you know that's what they did with the low pezzes as well right right
[01:05:23] but I was going to say creatively it's it's similar to the Ashman thing you know the difference is that like in between when they hired him for this movie and when it came out Hamilton happened you know they were hiring the in the heights guy
[01:05:38] and that felt like okay here's a thing that was a Broadway show but it was kind of a cult Broadway show Avenue Q was a weird Tony winner get people who are kind of at the outskirts of mainstream musical theater and and have that sort of
[01:05:51] sense of humor sensibility but he's a good fit it is just bizarre to think like right this this comes out the year that Hamilton wins Tony's Broadway wins the Tony's obviously yeah it's just so bizarre I guess it opens in 2015 whatever it was but here's the thing
[01:06:07] I love and this is why I was talking about the way these movies open generally it's like this movie gets to open with the serious mythology then go on for like 15 minutes and then this is like a second stealth opening of the movie like this is the Virginia
[01:06:21] sailing company song when she leaves no I'm saying what you have the we know the way oh oh I see right that that's the sort of the the this is who we are working song like yeah right right yeah and because it's almost like a flash sideways
[01:06:36] it's like she touches the flame goes up she's like transported to this like you know flashback it's like she's seeing like oh this is the start of my movie this is like a big empowering opening number of a film that's now going to inspire me and then
[01:06:52] I guess how far I'll go happens in between the two right between the grandma scene yeah yeah that's her I want song that's the you know I want to get out of the into the water even though this island you know sorry it happens afterwards
[01:07:07] because that's when she sails out right and she comes back but no that's the reprise the reprise her sailing out yeah it is just a thing like in the way Christopher Macquarie Macquarie talks about that like the whole goal of the Wolf Blitzer thing in Mission Impossible
[01:07:23] to make the audience think that they broke in the movie and then revealed they actually were in control of it when she does the reprise when she gets out on the ship when she starts sailing I remember being like are they rushing this like it doesn't really
[01:07:35] feel like she's totally set up where she needs to be to be able to go out in her adventure to be clear the reprise is when she gets out the right the first rendition of the song right is is her getting spit back up right right
[01:07:49] that's what I like I like I'm sorry I miss identifying the two but I like that she gets spit out the first time I like that she tries to do it the movie tries to convince you that she's ready for the adventure and it's like
[01:07:59] no because it's setting up the fact that this movie is going to be about persistent you know it is going to be about work ethic in some way right so then she gets spit back out grandma gets sick gives her the out to escape she does the reprise
[01:08:14] and actually makes it out into the water David I know we've talked about this in every single episode how much watching every Muscle Clements movie up until this point makes us appreciate appreciate 2D animation more than ever and I like CGI more than you do
[01:08:31] I feel like you naturally are a little bit more turned off by it than I am you gave it a big thumbs down but this movie I think is so beautiful and so much of it for me is just the water animation in this is unreal
[01:08:45] and you just couldn't do in the hand drawn in the same way it's why it's successful I think is the water is how good the water looks and also the fact that the movie so colorful like unlike Frozen where everything is like blues and purples and kind of
[01:09:00] you know like it's sort of muted weirdly like you know this way like the costumes are very colorful the villainous you know that you know the way the villain looks the way I don't know it's just sort of like a more attention grabbing movie for your eyes
[01:09:14] well she's on the water for like most of the movie like once you get away from the colorfulness of the island it's just like her in the water and the water has to have all these different personalities it's like her friend and then it's you know
[01:09:26] it's a storm and it's a threat to her and it's just doing all these things and then you don't the color doesn't come back until the end which I will not will not spoil I'll jump ahead fair enough but it works both as a character
[01:09:39] and as an environment because as you said like most of the movie she's on the water I don't like water water scares me I'm only comfortable when it's in my bathroom or in a glass that I'm drinking out of I don't like pools I don't like the beach
[01:09:53] I don't like the ocean I don't like being on a boat I find this movie so relaxing visually it's like a visual white noise machine just watching the boat ebbing in the water whether it's at night or during the day whatever the color is whether it's a storm
[01:10:09] or whether it's still it's the thing that I think Pixar tried to do with Good Dinosaur and failed which is like can you have really cartoony characters with certain very realistic realistic physics and elements and despite the fact that the water sometimes acts like a magical supernatural creature
[01:10:24] it also just in most shots looks like real water to a degree that is kind of astonishing it's just hyper real enough but like the fluid simulation is unbelievable in this movie Lenika do you play Zelda or do you do you just play have you just played
[01:10:39] the new one The Breath of the Wild I've just played Breath of the Wild yeah okay Griffin I'm assuming like just because there's the Zelda game the Wind Waker that set mostly on like island chains and a lot of the game is you sailing between islands
[01:10:55] you have a little sailboat and so a lot of the game is just going across the water with like nothing happening love I love I love that ship it always relaxes me I've been thinking of the Wind Waker but just basically and like I understand the peril will
[01:11:10] yeah that's fine give me peril once in a while but like I also am pretty happy just kind of cruising on like a horizon you know like with nothing to think about and just like the sort of soundscape of the ocean I also think
[01:11:25] that's what I was going to say this movie has less score than a lot of the Disney musicals I feel like it's very comfortable like sitting in the silence and just the sound of the waves for long stretches you know that's the only thing underscoring their dialogue
[01:11:42] but then yeah Maui doesn't enter until like 40 minutes into the movie yeah she gets into the storm right she leaves she leaves she gets into the storm and she's I think she's like basically trying to fill out the ocean and see how much of a friend
[01:11:57] it is to her like she gets in the storm she's like can you help me and she just all she does doesn't drown but like it takes her to where she needs to go and I think it's on that that journey you start hearing a bit of the
[01:12:08] you're welcome like you know playing as she's approaching Maui's Island right but yeah it takes it takes forever get there it's 35 minutes yeah we should mention also the other thing is of course the movie sort of sets you up to think that Pua the pig
[01:12:26] is going to be the main animal sidekick and it's a fake out they leave her with the least effective animal sidekick and the history of movies he does one useful thing in the entire movie right when he most need him to swallow the stone and give it no
[01:12:41] give it to her picks up the stone Oh give it back yeah yes yeah but Pua's too scared pig pig is really cute but he goes up with her he's like on that first journey where you think she's going to break out and then he almost rounds
[01:12:53] and then he sees an or and he's like now yeah I just I love that misdirect like her taking the first time makes you think like okay he's going to be the one by her side the entire movie and instead it's like no the animal sidekick
[01:13:06] is an impediment he is a conflict he is a dilemma he keeps falling in he's not really cute he's dumb kind of annoying yep they had like drafted him he was in all the early versions of the script he was supposed to be talking and his whole
[01:13:21] character thing was he was supposed to be like very arrogant like he thought he was an adventurer and he got things wrong and they realized like oh that's a kind of too much like Maui and they kept on retooling the character over and over again
[01:13:35] but they like started animating they were like doing shit it was at the point where they were like you either have to cut this character you have to solve it because like it's go time either we're going to remove him entirely from the whole thing or
[01:13:48] you need to come with a new take and they just went like what if he's just the dumbest character in the history of movies and he was right so it's Alan Tudyk doing the squawks because he was supposed to be the speaking voice for dialogue
[01:14:00] and at the last second they were like no he's just really dumb are you still on board to just squawk a bunch and he is because he also I mean wait what's the other thing oh right Aladdin he's Iago and he just squawks right there's no talking
[01:14:14] now he's just becoming a squawker and now we obviously this movie was sold so much on the rock because he is such a famous person and he was doing most of the press and your female lead is an unknown teenager in her first movie role who's wonderful incredible
[01:14:33] I love that she seems to be sticking around like she's on television she has a what's that show altogether now Oh that was that was the Netflix movie but no what was the TV show she was in she did that Josh Radner NBC show she's oh right
[01:14:46] yes that's right yes yes she did that little mermaid live concert where she kind of killed it yeah you know these these Disney movies are not quite as craven is like a dream work sort of or in terms of like stuffing the movie with big stars but yes
[01:15:01] I mean they're using they're leveraging Dwayne Johnson's said the major image yeah you're making a Polynesian fairy tale the biggest movie star in the world happens to be Polynesian right now you're going to send him out there not just as the face of the movie
[01:15:16] but kind of like an ambassador I just like how much the movie is focused on Moana for the first 35 minutes aside from the prologue that when Maui enters you were like oh right he's part of this movie even though that's the thing that they sold me on
[01:15:31] you know that you're really just invested in her and then he comes in as sort of flavor once again I am now quite exhausted by Dwayne Johnson Griffin I think we have talked about this his his star persona has gotten a little relentless feeling a little flattened
[01:15:48] a little samey you know the Jumanji sequel the you know what's it called skyscraper wait where Hobbs and Shaw write these movies that just sort of feel like they're about how awesome Dwayne Johnson is once again funny to consider that when this movie came out I was like
[01:16:04] oh I like him he's great sure you know I enjoy him he's in the Fast and Furious movies like you know I like this this run he's on I'm having a great time and he's good in this it also like this was the point in time
[01:16:19] where he still let directors use him you know I am saying like mushroom Clements are very very wisely and kind of cleverly using his persona to their advantage in the same way I would argue Michael Bay did in Pain and Gain and the same way I would argue
[01:16:34] Justin Lin initially knew how to do in Fast Five before he probably started arm wrestling control of the movies the rock becomes a problem and the rock feels like he's not just a color on the palette that he is Bob Ross you know that he
[01:16:50] everything has to be built in his image right Lanka what's your do you have strong feelings on the rock on tWayne Jossson I don't but I was thinking like what wasn't he when he was cast for this he was like really nervous because he hadn't done voice acting
[01:17:06] singing I think singing was his his biggest concern right yeah yeah yeah and he was just like very I think differential and just like did I do a good job like that kind of thing with this role one could argue that's the key to a good Dwayne Johnson
[01:17:22] performance is a sense of humility and a sense of deference to the other people working on the film as opposed to posting an 18 paragraph Instagram caption about why he chose to make rampage and explaining the larger points he was trying to make and telling the rampage story
[01:17:41] and building out the new rampage mythology if you remember rampage is the movie where there's a it's based on a video game and it's about a big gorilla that smashes things up I remember you wrote a very funny review of it you've edited so many of my reviews
[01:17:56] I always wonder like if you if you remember the the details of these stupid movies rampage is the movie of course where the gorilla gives a finger to the audience that's like his big joke also the big gorilla has to smash are a big crocodile
[01:18:15] and a big wolf and of course the film had the tagline big meets bigger right and it was because there was the rock and then a gorilla right okay yes yes big big map bigger yes that's the other way to think Dwayne Johnson movies started having taglines
[01:18:32] that didn't reference the movie but referenced Dwayne Johnson is his his imposing image right or or the central intelligence in order to save the day they're going to need a big heart and a little a little heart and a big Johnson right right Lenica's covering her face
[01:18:48] and cringing I'm just remembering the billboards yeah that's the same year as this that's twenty six Z that's that's that's when it's starting to overtake I would say a little bit right where it's like he's really just playing Instagram's favorite Dwayne Johnson in movies versus like playing like
[01:19:07] a person or even now pull up let me tell you a story my dad once sat me down and gave me a shot to kill and told me any man in this world has to be able to look a lion in the eye and that's what inspired
[01:19:17] me to make my new film red notice God that bright red notice we're going to have to put up with that this year we're going to have to get the notice Oh God um I just think he's very good in this I think this is like exactly
[01:19:30] using all of his best qualities Ian Ali II have a great such great chemistry like so they're adorable it's it's it's a familiar Disney dynamic by suppose but like I love it like I like these sort of like playfully combative yeah right they want they're sort of
[01:19:51] heading in different directions they figure out how much they you know compliment each other and how much they're both you know care about things and that's that's the the sort of respect you know an alliance of respect is is what they're building up to and that fucking your
[01:20:04] welcomes a lot of fun I mean it helps that like Lin Manuel knows how to write for people who have limited singing ranges but he like gives him a song that he can knock out of the park and he does I love that that number goes into
[01:20:16] the weird like sort of like halaji cut out art background yes I just get so excited whenever animation uses the other kinds of animation yeah it's just like to make everything look cool make everything interesting experiment you know it's it's inventive it's it's very fun Oh
[01:20:37] right and then of course there's a whole extended Ben's background is now the tattoo but that you have like a big part of the dance number is done on his chest I like that the tattoos are 2D like you're talking about using other mediums and I also like
[01:20:50] that there's the sort of like he's gotten Milana into the whole song and dance number he's putting halaji lay around her neck he's singing dancing so much that she doesn't realize that he's stealing the boat right he's like using the song to distract her the mythology rules too
[01:21:07] it's so cool I had never heard any of those legends before and I think it's like awesome exposure to all of them and I mean the way that Maui is introduced in the the prologue it seems like he's like a villain kind of you know he's a shape
[01:21:22] shifter he's a trickster he's a thief he stole the heart of Tafiti and now her island is dying and this is the first time where you're like okay yeah he's a little arrogant but he seems like he's doing this for people like he you're you're starting to like
[01:21:35] reimagine who he might be and like what he's like is actually he's like a high school quarterback who won't stop telling you how good he was in high school like that's which is endearing he's arrogant but it comes from a place of deep insecurity exactly that's the thing
[01:21:51] his insecurity like the idea of a God who is not doing these things benevolently but it's like come on like aren't I great come on don't you like this like is a much more compelling sort of you know secondary protagonist God like character then a big muscly hero
[01:22:10] who you know we should all root for because he's a big muscly hero and your welcome is is funny and catchy but it also just sets up that character dynamic so well so quickly but I don't know if you know this Moana is a really good kid
[01:22:25] and she doesn't give up easily she gets herself out of that cave she chases Maui he tries to throw into the water but the water won't fucking let him that's true the water is trying to guide them together as you said Lenica right like that's that's the idea
[01:22:42] here is that's why he's essentially being release I you know from an animation perspective I enjoy the physicality of the character like I just I like you know how a Disney movie can make a person that looks so ridiculous move so like fluidly you know like even though
[01:22:59] he's yeah he's an expert like wayfinder yeah I just that that's right and so the combination of like just the fluidity of how he moves and how he shape shifts and how the water is and like how that's all being you know represented in completely different way I
[01:23:17] I I like all that I think that's cool well you realize pretty quickly that he's trying to get away because he's afraid like he associates this little this little greenstone with losing the hook and the hook is the thing that he had based his entire identity on like
[01:23:32] he's he's like who am I if I don't have my hook I'm not Maui I'm not a demigot I don't have any powers I can't shape shift I've been on this island for a thousand years that's it yeah you were talking about the the appeal of Disney animation
[01:23:50] David because we've talked about some of like the principles of Disney character animation and like what the wise old man the original Disney animators like Ollie Johnson Frank Thomas created but I I want to pull this up because it's it's just like I was thinking about this
[01:24:06] a lot while watching this movie and how well this movie executes all of these at pretty much every moment there's sort of what the old Disney animators defined as the 12 principles of character animation and they are him him squash and stretch anticipation staging straight ahead action and pose
[01:24:29] to pose follow through an overlapping action slow in and slow out arc secondary aiming exaggeration solid drawing and appeal I'm not going to break all those down a lot of them are sort of self-evident or they sound like what they are but it's just a thing that like
[01:24:49] it just feels like every performance in this movie is detailed and thought through enough that it's really functioning on all those levels at all times you know yes and the intimacy or intimacy is the wrong word but the small scale of it almost helps it's not busy
[01:25:08] because we have these these sort of small ensemble we know them all really well by the end of the movie right yeah yeah or you're going to say Lenica sorry no I was just thinking like once Maui's on that boat once the two of them are on that
[01:25:20] boat together you finally have this like this this the dynamic like the physical dynamic between the two of them of like throwing each other off like you know they have to share this very tiny space for a good chunk of the movie and so those principles
[01:25:33] that you were just mentioning are important and and I mean they do have a lot of dialogue but like the way that they move and behave around each other kind of like taking the measure of each other and realizing how similar they actually are I think
[01:25:48] all of that like the animation does somebody lifting there yeah yeah and there's like they they do that one big montage once he's finally relented and agreed to teach her and you're seeing the evolution of her learning it's it is so much about the the physicality
[01:26:04] of the two of them and the weird intimacy of like it's such a small space like you just think about like they're on like a raft in the middle of a giant ocean for days together you also get a pp joke in there which is good very funny
[01:26:19] two pp jokes right they bring it back yes at least two after that is the the Kakamora scene right that's the the coconut pirates that's like the the big action scene I mean like many a Disney movie the only song left is shiny which is a very
[01:26:38] fun song that I enjoy well well but they do two more small they they right they do reprises but much like frozen weirdly wrapping up its songs in the middle of the movie and having the troll song be the last song like it's just funny
[01:26:52] it bums me out yes how they shift to action mode for sort of the the final act of these movies sometimes I'm just waiting for one of these movies to have the courage to have songs all the way through give us an 11 o'clock number essentially that goes with
[01:27:06] grandma and and how far I'll go again which at least makes it feel like music is still in the life blood of it shiny is just my absolute jam everything about this sequence fucks so hard in my eyes I love Tamatoa I love this performance I think
[01:27:24] there's something really simultaneously funny and unnerving about how big he is he's he's he's he's kind of spooky you know even though he's a comic he's terrifying he's pretty weird he seems goofy like you think he's gonna be terrifying then he turns out to be goofy then
[01:27:41] he's actually terrifying when he goes like that glow glow in the dark situation yes his his black light mode but also like his head is pure squash and stretch right which is pretty much just like his eyes move right and animate things like they don't have
[01:27:59] bones like they don't have a skull right that their physiology can change based on their mood and his whole face does really his body his shell his claws are more rigid right but his head is like silly putty and his eyes are spinning all over the place
[01:28:12] it's getting longer and flattening out and whatever but also there's that weird thing I don't know what the the fucking principle of physics is here but that thing like that that Pacific rim does well where like incredibly large objects moving fast would still look slow to us
[01:28:28] because of the perspective of you know our range of vision and there's that simultaneously depending on the shop moving like very fast or looking like he's moving slow whether you're seeing it from the perspective of like the God's eye camera or from Moana or Maui and there's also
[01:28:45] just something unnerving about seeing these characters who have been our focal point the whole movie being that tiny like just being flung around in his claws I just I love I love this number I also just love that like all the music has been of a piece
[01:29:04] and then now you just have this fucking David Bowie number with this weird glam crab I love it I love it I just remember giggling like a lunatic seeing this in theaters for the first time Shani is great I like both of these action sequences a lot because
[01:29:22] they have humor to them the the coconut pirates and the crab like they have the you know Moana and Maui working together working at odds at the same time you know like that's a tough dynamic to do without it feeling frustrating like you know there's only so much
[01:29:40] we want the two leads to not be friends like we do we want to see how they work together this kind of takes a while for them to do that but it doesn't ever really feel annoying yes I think I just think that's difficult like that's all
[01:29:57] like I'm just sort of impressed by that and even from the one Maui's trying to get he is not invested in protecting the heart at all he just wants to get the hell away from them yeah he wants his hook and that's it right
[01:30:10] right and the second one like she does the division and Maui's like oh wait did you do you saw the heart so he's like there's already been some growth in that fairly short amount of time because she's proving herself too it's like capable and you know dynamic person
[01:30:29] action at the end you know and like just sort of not being as emotionally connected to it and I don't understand why because there is the wonderful scene with the grandma there's this you know her singing I am a one you know there are
[01:30:43] all these big sort of soaring moments that totally worked for me this time I don't know I mean just been elected whatever that's my excuse yeah and also I mean right the Krakatoa is like the most conventional sort of manic action sequence and Tomatoua is like half musical
[01:31:00] number half action sequence and then you have the first failed attempt at defeating Tafiti which is very much like big action epic thing but the final the day new month of this movie does become more intimate again and you have that grandma scene in the middle
[01:31:16] you have the sort of Maui heart to heart him leaving I mean there there are real emotional beats they go back to the grandma stuff just like I remember I saw this first time with our friend friend of the show Rachel Lang and Alex Pitts and
[01:31:33] Rachel just started balling the second the grandmother came back and I went like why are you crying so much I'm just so happy she turned into a sting I mean she may go her promise earlier like her like dying words where there's nowhere you can go that
[01:31:50] I won't be with you and I just every time I'm just like oh my god grandma my grandma speaking to me that's something a character says and you're like okay that's she's saying in your heart right and it's like no, no, no she's literally saying she'll follow you
[01:32:06] anywhere she's a magical sting Ray Lady ghost now you literally see the lights in the village go out and her spirit turning into a sting Ray calming with her Moana and Maui have there. They're falling out. Like she thinks she can make it past the barrier islands
[01:32:23] and again ends up getting his hook that he had worked so hard to get back, like broken. He leaves and she's actually like the last thing he says to her is like, you know, the ocean shows wrong. Like you're not the chosen one.
[01:32:34] And this entire time, like you, I know that she doesn't really grapple with like a major character flaw. But if there's one thing that she does like if her coming of age story has some kind of arc it's like going from telling yourself, you know,
[01:32:48] you're the chosen one. You're going through the motions of being the chosen one because your grandma told you and you know, the ocean chose you and you're listening to other people telling you who you're supposed to be. But she doesn't believe it. Like, you know, she's doubting herself.
[01:33:00] And then like, I think she goes from being the chosen one to deciding to realizing that she can make a choice. Like she gives, she tells the ocean like choose someone else. And the ocean isn't like, no, Moana, you have to go on. It's like, all right. Like.
[01:33:13] We'll take the thing. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. The heart just falls down. And then even the grandma says like, I shouldn't have put so much on you. Like you can go back home. She gives her an out. It's like, you don't have to do all this.
[01:33:27] But then like right before her ore hits the water she hesitates and she realizes like, you know, and then her ancestors come out and they like, she's not alone. It's so beautiful. She's been out on this ocean by herself with the exception of Maui just like feeling
[01:33:42] like she's carrying the weight of all these, of her village and they are there with her. Like she knows where she's from. She came from and so now she knows where she can go. Like it's beautiful. You need Maui to not be there. It has to be right.
[01:33:54] Her and her people. Right. Yeah. Not this sort of demigod. Right. Right. It plays so much better emotionally with her by herself. It also gives Maui the chance to like have his cool fucking Han Solo. I did actually care return.
[01:34:09] And I do like that anytime he's an animal it's a chunky animal. I'm sorry. Like I, come on. With cool hair. Yeah. You know, I enjoy that. The bit where he's the half shark and he doesn't realize it is just funny. It's just funny comedy.
[01:34:24] No, that incredibly well said, Lenica. I also think that's like another kind of nuanced thing this movie is getting at in terms of it being like, this is a movie about how you figure out how to become a responsible adult. Like how you be your own person
[01:34:36] is to some degree she has to learn that it is good to doubt yourself. Right. That's so much of this movie has been like, I know I'm right. I have to do this. It doesn't matter what anyone tells me. And that part of the equation is
[01:34:47] if you don't ever doubt yourself, that's worrying. You know, you should not always believe you're correct. You need to have those questions. You're covering something up or something if you really feel that way. Cause like Maui presents himself that way. But then of course, the big realization is,
[01:35:03] no, this guy is crippled by doubt. Like that's why he keeps doing crazier and crazier things. And that's why it's so good that the arc of this movie is after she gives the heart of the ocean to back to Tafiti is that she goes home
[01:35:19] and her parents are like, we're glad you're home. And it was clearly good for you. Right. There's no scolding. Yeah. And like, you know, clearly like I'm glad like you look great. Clearly this was a good thing for you to do. It suits you.
[01:35:32] That's also like, you were right. Thanks for saving us. Our coconuts are turning into dust anymore. We can once again consider them. Which is great. But she's great, but that almost feels secondary to, yes, it was scary for you to leave. And that's what I was afraid of.
[01:35:48] But I recognize that that was the right thing to do. But yes, the fact that her return is just them running to her with joy. That it's not any like, oh my God. You know, and there's no scolding or whatever. It's so nice.
[01:36:03] And it is like, it's disarming that final Tafiti sequence. Like I was just, I still haven't seen this. There's so many times taken by the imagery of like she is genuinely scary looking. She's a giant volcano lady. And we've seen her already like make a, you know,
[01:36:19] quick business of our heroes the first time. And to see them wanna just stand up to her and stand still and hold out a stone. And then that's shot where you see them in profile. And recognize that this is a wounded creature too. This is someone right. Beautiful.
[01:36:36] It's so beautiful. Beautiful. It's shot where it's like the two of them in profile. Moana holds out her hand to the bridge of Tafiti's nose. I fucking love that. His letter come to me and the ocean just parts. And it's like, it's so fucking badass. It's great.
[01:36:50] And also to agree, like the thing, the lesson she's learned that helps her defeat her is just like, oh, she understands why people behave certain ways now. She understands that this is a wounded person, that she has to show compassion and not treat her as an enemy.
[01:37:04] Well, she's forgotten who she is. And it's all about self-knowledge. And I mean, well, I'm glad we came back to that because the moment when she stands, she, you know, Maui has distracted Tekka and she climbs the mountain to put the heart back and she sees like...
[01:37:23] It's like essentially like a corpse has been drawn in the ocean basically, yeah. Like a chalk outline. Right. Like the image was sort of like reminded me of, you know, that like the nuclear tests they did and the Marshall Islands like post World War II.
[01:37:37] It was like, it had a bit of that to it. And even like the explosion had a kind of like nuclear test, if you'll do it. It's spooky. Yes, you know, right. She gets knocked down by this, right, black splash radius, yeah.
[01:37:47] Right. I mean, she turns around, she realizes and then like holds up the stone or holds up the heart. And it's like, she's so brave. Like you just see, she knows in that moment she recognizes, because she knows who she is now
[01:38:01] and she recognizes what it's like for someone else to not know who they are. And realizing that Teca and Tefide are the same, the same character was like so powerful. She fucking leads with empathy. It's so touching. And seeing the transformation,
[01:38:17] the green cracking through and all of that, it's just so beautiful on every level. That's the other time the animation, like the computer animation just really like, it just blows your mind seeing that green burst through. Right. The colors, I mean,
[01:38:30] the way the lava is animated too much like water, just the sort of, it's, the intensity is higher in three. That's where the CG does is undeniable. Like even though I do love a hand drawn movie and I'm sure I would have loved this
[01:38:43] if it was a hand drawn movie, but you know. Lenica, I have a 3D TV. I bought the last model of 3D television before they were discontinued in the United States because I didn't want to miss out on a trend that had clearly already failed.
[01:38:58] But I watched this movie in 3D and I do think that like this movie is more impressive as a two characters on a boat in the middle of the ocean movie than Life of Pi. Like this movie does for me
[01:39:13] what I think a lot of people felt like, oh my, you won't believe the immersiveness of this. I also just want to point out, my 3D glasses that I now use while wearing, while watching 3D movies at home are Anakin Skywalker's Pod Racer goggles.
[01:39:32] Wow, did you got these special? We got these for George Lucas talk show, but this is when Phantom Menace was re-released in 3D at the peak of the 3D trend. They thought a new revenue stream was going to be selling premium 3D glasses.
[01:39:47] And unsurprisingly, you can now get these for a dollar on eBay. So I was just sitting there just right there with an arms reach. But I was like watching the movie well, cause I want to show it to you folks. I was watching the movie like this
[01:39:59] and like crying and laughing. And then I was like, okay, time to record the podcast and I go to the bathroom and look in the mirror and I realized I looked like this. I'll post a photo, but it's just like, I forgot while having this very emotional experience
[01:40:13] that I looked like a young Anakin beating Subalba in a pod race. Now this is pod racing. Now this is pod racing. But yeah, she just fucking saves the day. She does, but there's no villain. I mean, I know that the crab is a secondary villain,
[01:40:28] but like I think I was sort of taken aback because the villain is such a crucial part of these modern Disney movies. Like the villain that you sort of root for and has his own song or own song, you know, like that's like part of the fun.
[01:40:43] And this movie very successfully issues that. It's also kind of an unusual thing. No, the, you know, Tamatoa is a temporary conflict in the same way the Krakatoa are, you know? But this movie doesn't have an overarching villain. It doesn't have a love interest. It's an aromantic relationship
[01:41:00] between a male character and a female character. And it's really just about figuring out who you are and how you function independently out in the world, which is like a pretty big thing to make a movie about because it's not something that cleanly fits into
[01:41:14] a very kind of precise clockwork narrative, you know? Lenica, is there anything we haven't talked about in the movie that you want to talk about before we played the box office game? I mean, the end of the movie, you said David no more songs,
[01:41:27] but they do of course do a, we know the way reprise as well. They go back on the ocean. It's wonderful. I'm crying again, you know, like the pig finally gets to be on the water too, which is a big one. Who is on the water, baby?
[01:41:39] Yeah, yeah, because the boats are big. Right, yeah. Oh, so he deserves it. But yeah, I don't know, you know, yeah, is there anything we haven't talked about? I mean, you know. It's a good movie. It's a good movie. Love Moana, every time I watch it,
[01:41:53] I'm like, all right, gonna have a couple of cry moments in here and like it just never, the Tafiti scene at the end just always like, punches me in the face. It's a grandmas scene for me. But I also, I just the whole time I'm watching it,
[01:42:07] I think the same thing over and over again, which is just Moana is a really good kid. She is good. She loves her family. She loves her people. She like, in the end, she doesn't want to run away from them. She wants to, it's like, you know,
[01:42:24] the song of the beginning is like a very conservative song. Like we don't leave, we don't change anything. This is how things are. And like she brings them back to the way things were before that, like she helps them return
[01:42:34] to the traditions that made them who they are. Like it's such an inch, now that we're talking about, I'm like, okay, there's all these layers. I know. In terms of like, ugh. That's great. I just wanna fucking pull Chief Tuia aside
[01:42:47] and go like, look, I'm sure you hear this all the time. You're a nice guy. Oh, your daughter's a really good kid. She's a great kid. You got nothing to worry about there. Right, yeah. Yeah, this is another thing I never realized.
[01:42:58] Nicole Scherzinger of the Pussycat Dolls is the mom? Absolutely, yes, yes. Those pipes cut through the first song, yeah. Never realized that, yeah. Yeah, her mom is Hawaiian and her dad is Filipino. She's, yeah, she's good. No, no, no complaints about Nicole Scherzinger.
[01:43:20] Now this movie did win the Oscar, right? No. It didn't win? No, Zootopia did. Fuck, I forgot this is the same year as Zootopia. That's the thing. It was a rare double Disney movie year and Zootopia was this like sort of financial juggernaut that got very good reviews
[01:43:42] and Moana became this weird afterthought. It's a huge, it's a great year for that category because the nominees are, you know, these two movies, Kubo and the Two Strings, which like has its faults in terms of the cast is, you know, that sort of egregious annoying thing about
[01:43:59] but the movie itself is, you know, very pretty and beautifully animated and I like it a lot. My life as a zucchini, one of the top five titles of a movie ever is My Life, which is a good movie. My Life is an Obergine. Yes, right in Europe.
[01:44:18] My Life is a courgette. Courgette, oh sorry, not Obergine, yeah. Yes. And the Red Turtle, which is, I don't love that movie but it's again beautiful, like really, really pretty. But that might be five for five the best that category has ever been.
[01:44:34] A very good year and Zootopia is the winner and I like Zootopia. Haven't seen it in a while as I said, but like, you know. This movie's much better. Yeah, this movie's much better. That's so fun. I just did my mind corrected that. I didn't think it was.
[01:44:48] It was nominated for two Oscars and lost both of them. That's another thing of like, this movie did incredibly well but. It did very well. Frozen was two years earlier, three years earlier and just like blew the doors off. So it's like Frozen and then in between
[01:45:04] Frozen is Big Hero 6 and Zootopia. So it was like, oh fuck, this is the next Disney princess movie. They have the Hamilton guy. This is gonna be like a jug or not. And it was just instead a massive hit. But I think it did very well.
[01:45:19] But I think the bar was so goddamn high that it wasn't a disappointment but people were just like, oh, I guess that did well. Try and try. I mean, seriously, you just can't underwrite the weird just cultural like atom bomb that is those three months, November, December, January,
[01:45:36] like where everyone's just kind of like, oh my God. Like it's like the only story. So I think that's part of it too. It is also so bizarre that Zootopia was such a fucking humongous hit six months before it got elected.
[01:45:52] And it's like a movie that's pretty explicitly, clumsily arguing against like, I know not directly but it's a movie about like the government using fear mongering. Griffin then won Zootopia. He did win Zootopia. The blue wall, he flipped Zootopia. That's what 14 electoral votes.
[01:46:10] But you know how he won, right? I don't know. Because he was willing to try everything. He would try it. That does make me cry in Zootopia when she moves to the big city and try everything is playing on her. I like Zootopia. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:46:26] Moving to the big city, that's like Ben was saying, like this Moana is not this but it's still the same thing. Striking out of your eye. Now look. She moves to the ocean city. Yeah, okay. So this is the thing. We've covered this exact weekend
[01:46:40] The Box Office Game too many times and as recently as Allied. So we felt like we can't just do the five again. So I suggested we do an alternate thing to commemorate the end of this mini series, the end of Musker and Clements
[01:46:54] which spans 30 plus years of Disney animation. I suggested we do a box office game of the top 10 Disney films. We're talking Walt Disney, Studios, Animation. Yeah, so no Pixar and no remakes. No. No fucking Lion King 2019. And no Disney tunes. We're talking the big traditional, right?
[01:47:17] Okay. So go on, give me the number one animated Disney film of all time Griffin. Now are you looking at a worldwide list or domestic? No, it's domestic only. I can't find a worldwide list. That's too cop. So is Lion King still number one domestic?
[01:47:31] No, not even close. It's Frozen 2 and then Lion King or Frozen? No. Really? Frozen 2 and then Frozen. Those are the top two. Even with Lion King's 3D, really some good. Yes, I don't know. I look, I'm going by it. Look, Griff, this list was hard to find.
[01:47:48] Okay, so give me the numbers. Frozen 2 made $477 million in America alone which is a lot of money. Right, and made like a billion two or something. Yeah. Frozen 1 made $400 million. So those are the top two. They are just sizable things. And number three Griffin. Is not Lion King?
[01:48:12] Nope. Number three is Zootopia? Is Zootopia, the movie about a Zootopia. What if there was a Zootopia? Zootopia did like 360, what did it end up at? 341. Wow. And number four is the Lion King which made 312. Now obviously the Lion King made that in 1994
[01:48:30] so if you adjust for inflation, the Lion King guess was an unstoppable force in its own right. But still. Multiple re-releases, yes. But what's number five? Number five would be, okay, so 312. So what's the thing that's closest to that number? Aladdin is low twos. You want a hint?
[01:48:51] Yes, this movie ends up at 260, right? Yes, and the hint is it's this movie. Okay. It's Moana. It's Moana. The fifth most successful Disney movie unadjusted for inflation. Wow. To 48. Long tail too. You were looking at the box office,
[01:49:10] it did like four and a half times its opening weekend, five times its opening weekend, yeah. Yeah, yes, it had good legs. But the thing is it's just also, the model changed and these things became more than just kids movies and everyone went to see them
[01:49:23] and that's just the difference between a Moana and a Little Mermaid as well as Little Mermaid did. Like what's number six Griffin? It's another of this, you know, the last decade. Right, it's not Big Hero 6, is it? It's Big Hero 6, which like I saw and enjoyed
[01:49:43] but I couldn't tell you a damn thing about that movie except that there's a big pillow robot and I enjoyed watching him. Did you see Big Hero 6, Lanaka? I did, I also can't remember anything other than it was really cute. Yeah, it's cute and they're heroes.
[01:49:57] His dad or brother is dead. There's a dead relative. Someone died, the brother dies, the big brother dies. It was sad early on, that's all I remember. Number seven Griffin is a movie we discussed on this miniseries. So number seven's Aladdin, number eight is Tangled, is that correct?
[01:50:16] That's correct, no, I'm sorry. No, no, Tangled is nine, what's right above it? Just a tick above it. Another recent movie we've discussed on this podcast. Ben's a fan. Oh, is it Ralph Two or Ralph One? It's Ralph Two, you broke the internet.
[01:50:38] Man, just what a dominant run this has been for them. And then Ralph One is 10. Yeah, okay. So that's the thing, you know, it's just the, you know, recency rules. Yeah. But yeah, because then Tarzan is the next one
[01:50:52] which was a huge hit, I kinda forget about that. And then go ahead, Ben, sorry. Are they gonna make a third Ralph? They should. I don't know what unearth they would make it about. I mean, if he needs a new friend, I'll hang.
[01:51:09] Lennyker, Ben really likes Wreck-It Ralph, like specifically, like he loves the character Ralph. His face lit up when you mentioned it. Yeah. The Ralph trilogy of course, Wreck-It Ralph, Ralph breaks the internet and Ralph meets Ben. The Ralph just hangs out with Ben.
[01:51:29] The next one after that is Beauty and the Beast after Tarzan. And then Lilo and Stitch, big hit, then Pocahontas. Then does dinosaur count? Are we counting dinosaurs? Dinosaur counts, dinosaur counts. What if there was a dinosaur? And then Mulan. Yeah, wow. And then Balt.
[01:51:49] And there you go. And now I'm done. I mean, and obviously the overseas numbers just like explode. Yeah, that'll rise a few things. No, no, no, no, but I'm just saying for the later movies, I mean they were always big hits internationally,
[01:52:01] but this recent wave of the last 10 years, the worldwide numbers have just been ridiculous. I mean it's like, it really has been like a third renaissance for them where it's just kind of what they've won the Oscar three times they've had. They sort of began to outstrip Pixar.
[01:52:20] Yeah. They would start winning that Oscar, the animated feature Oscar. And whereas Pixar was like pumping out sequels and people were getting a little sort of disillusioned with the Pixar thing, right? I mean, you know, the Pixar will win, they won for Coco, they won for Toy Story 4.
[01:52:36] That was sort of a week here. But they've all been huge hits. And I feel like people were surprised that Toy Story 4 won. I think people were resigned to the idea that Frozen 2 was gonna win just because Disney had been so dominant, but Toy Story 4 is better.
[01:52:52] Frozen 2 wasn't even nominated. It wasn't even nominated? No. Hey, so what was the thing that people thought was gonna win? They didn't, they thought Toy Story 4 was gonna win. But I mean, but like that Frozen 2 obviously early on looked like the jargonaut, yeah. But no.
[01:53:07] What were the other nominees that year? Okay. How to Train Your Dragon 3, Klaus on Netflix, Missing Link, The Little Like A Movie and I Lost My Body, which was a critical fave. Oh, which is a good movie. Those were the nominees.
[01:53:24] And this year God knows what the nominees will be. What a weird year. Yeah. 2020 Oscars, they're gonna be not a bummer at all. No, they're gonna be normal. I just, God, I just, I'm very terrified by how quickly people have gone back
[01:53:40] to like, no, but we need to do the award shows in person. Like there are so many ways to do an award show during a pandemic. I'm not saying the Emmys were perfect, but they at least were interesting in trying to figure out how to do it responsibly.
[01:53:53] Yeah, they did some stuff that was kind of interesting. They don't know what they're doing. They don't know what it's gonna be. Whatever it was, the country music awards, they were like, no, we think it's good if we like test everybody and then put them
[01:54:03] on an auditorium together. And then like 80 people got sick. Yeah. Well, don't do that. No good, very bad, don't do that. All right, Griffin, the only one, the only other thing we gotta do is we gotta rank the Clements of Muskers. There's only seven.
[01:54:16] Yeah, I'm ready to do it. Go ahead. You should, well, no, I'll go first because I feel like mine are boring. Okay. All right, I'm number one little mermaid, number two Aladdin, number three Moana, number four Hercules, number five Princess and the Frog, number six great mouse detective,
[01:54:33] number seven, but a worthy final entry is Treasure Planet. Like I don't want that to feel like the seller-dweller. Wow. Like I like all these movies. You're gonna, I think, be outraged by the list I'm about to count on. No, I don't care. I'm ready.
[01:54:49] Number one after this talk, I'm only feeling twice as empowered to do it. Moana, baby, she's a good kid. Right. She is Moana. I just like how many times in the movie she has to sing her own name. She is Moana of Motunui.
[01:55:05] It gets me when she does it at the end, the big, yeah. Yes, there's rarely a movie in which a character's name is said this often and I think no other movie for a character's name is sung this often. Yeah. Moana, number one, number two.
[01:55:21] I think I know what it is. Yeah, Hercules. You love Hercules. I love Hercules. I did, Herc won me back, baby. I was out and I'm back in. Do you like Hercules? Are you a Hercules fan, Lekha? Have you seen Hercules since you were a kid?
[01:55:32] I haven't seen it a long time, but I did love, I loved Hercules. It's good. It's really clever and fun. Like it's worth a rewatch. And it looks so cool. The designs are so good. Number three little mermaid. Then I'd say number four, I'm gonna say Aladdin.
[01:55:55] Don't get too cute. Treasure planet. Great mass detective. Wow, you put frog at the bottom. Well, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, frog's the only one I don't really like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't dislike it, but I don't really like it.
[01:56:09] Lekha, do you like Princess and the Frog? I'm sorry, I'm just bouncing all of these off you right now. You don't have to have an opinion on them. I've always felt guilty for not seeing it because I feel like everyone I know has seen that move. Good.
[01:56:19] But I've seen Aladdin at least a million times, at least before the age of five. But that's it, yeah, no, I knew Hercules would be either one or two, Griff. I know you love Hercules. Yeah, I mean, I do think little mermaid's kind of undeniable,
[01:56:32] but I have to be honest to what I hear in my heart. I have to listen to the heart of the ocean. It tells me Moana is number one, Hercules is number two, little mermaid's number three. That's fine. That's okay. We had already announced our next mini-series.
[01:56:47] We had said that earlier because it's a little harder to find these movies, but we've now finished out Musker and Clements. Next week you will hear us do the Blinky Awards, if all goes according to plan. We will not be holding a ceremony in person.
[01:57:02] I want to make that very clear. We are not going to make the same mistakes that the Country Music Awards did. That hadn't been said, Darius Rucker will be hosting schedules permitting. I love Darius Rucker. That sounds great. I would love to work with Darius Rucker.
[01:57:16] What if I went on cameo and tried to figure out how much it would cost to have Darius Rucker introduce each category? There's no one I love enough to pay for a cameo. No one on earth, not even Colin Farrell. Like I just know that's okay.
[01:57:29] Tax deductible, we're a business. I understand. We're paying him as a performer. We're supporting the arts. We're trying to keep the arts alive. But yes, next week we're closing out the month of March with the Blinky Awards. And then of course, April is May
[01:57:45] for the entire month of April. We are watching the four films of Elaine May. So get to work on that. Try and track them down. New Leaf available on a Blu-ray from Olive Films. Heartbreak Kid, Hard Defined, Do Some Searchin', Mikey and Nikki available from Criterion.
[01:58:04] Ishtar available from Sony. Some of them have been streaming at different points in time. But we're giving you the advanced warning. Audio and casting. Yeah, I guess that's what it's called, right? April is May? April is May. And let me just explain this
[01:58:20] because Lenika, you're hearing this for the first time. Yes. The joke is that the filmmaker we are covering next month, her name is Elaine May. That is her surname. Okay, not the month. Well, but then here's this. Well, this is where the comedy comes in.
[01:58:36] Okay, there's sort of a rye twist. Your friend, I have to keep. Which is... No, no, keep going, keep going. I wanna know, I wanna understand. She's only made four films tragically. But in this one circumstance, it works out to our advantage that her filmography is limited
[01:58:51] because there are four weeks in a month. And the month is April and we can do all four May movies in April and thus April, the name of the month is May, the name of the director. Hold for laughter. Okay, great, you're holding. Keep holding, keep holding.
[01:59:18] And if you in the edit can just place in a ton of laughter there because I know people listening at home are gonna be laughing but I want them to not feel alone. They're gonna feel more encouraged to laugh if they hear other people laughing.
[01:59:31] David is massaging his temple, who's he listens? Classic David move. The temple massage. Lenneke, thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you, I feel we have thoroughly considered the coconut. Oh, that's right. I think this was a pretty fair consideration.
[01:59:51] The meat, the tree, the leaves. FYC, the coconut. All of it. Is there anything you want to plug your direct t-pill towards Lenneke? What am I supposed to say? The Atlantic, read the Atlantic. Oh, the Atlantic, our workplace. Our workplace, we love it.
[02:00:09] Read David Sims at the Atlantic. Oh, shut up, get out of here, you maniac. Read my BTS stories at the Atlantic. Read your BTS stories. You've been on some pods, I feel like, we were just talking about that, right? I just, I live on Twitter.
[02:00:26] You're on Twitter, yeah. Behind Lenneke. At Lenneke Crews. Lenneke, we've worked together about a month, seven years now? It's coming up, it's six and a half. Six and a half years, yeah. Okay, well you gotta reveal a sim secret. Oh, get out of here.
[02:00:41] Do you want, okay, what do I have? I'm annoying, I'm precious and thin-skinned. I don't know, like what's a secret to reveal about me? Lenneke, I'm gonna do the outro for the show while you think on a sim secret, and I'll let you close out the episode,
[02:00:56] but I want to be a juicy one. Just one sim secret. Oh no, you definitely know more sim secrets than I do. That's the thing. I don't know about that. Think on this for a minute. Folks, thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review and subscribe.
[02:01:14] Thank you to Joe Bowen and Pat Reynolds for our artwork, the great American novel for our theme song. Thank you to Marie Barty for our social media. Thank you to our editing team, Alex Barron and AJ McKian. Tune in next week as we set for Blankie Awards.
[02:01:31] April will be May after that. If you don't get it to play on words because the director in the month. Go to blankiestotreads.com for some real nerdy shit. Go to our Shopify page for some real nerdy shirts
[02:01:45] and you can go to our Patreon blank check special features where we're trekking through the Star Trek movies. And as always, Lenika, can you please gift us with one Sims secret? I don't have a Sims secret. All I can think is I miss David
[02:02:02] and I wanna head there to be over so you can come to New York and hang out. David, I ask that you do the echo of the line. You know what it's gonna be. Okay. Okay, ready? Yeah. Consider the cocoa nuts. Consider its leaves.
[02:02:28] Wait, what am I supposed to do? You're supposed to say consider the coconuts. Forget it. Forget it. David, we've practiced this so much before we started. Come on. Wait, I guess they... I guess... No, I'm not echoing. I can't do that.
[02:02:42] I'm not gonna let you say trunks in the leaves. That's my fucking moments of shock. Yeah, that's what I was confused by. No, you... Okay, okay, all right. Listen, let's just take it from the top.