Oppenheimer with Marie Bardi

[00:00:01] Blank Check with Griffin and David, Blank Check with Griffin and David Don't know what to say or to expect All you need to know is that the name of the show is Blank Check

[00:00:22] Why would we move out to the middle of the desert for two to three hours? Why? How about because this is the most important fucking podcast ever happened in the history of the world? Great job. Thank you. Did I blow up the levels there Ben? A little bit.

[00:00:38] That was a great job, but no one does grumpy sort of bureaucrat spittle like Mr. Matt Damon. I was talking to someone who had seen the trailer and hadn't seen the movie yet

[00:00:52] and said like there's that moment that Damon has in the trailer that feels almost a little silly and a little goofy and over the top and I watched the trailer and just feels like is he yelling every single line in this movie?

[00:01:04] And my answer was he's basically playing Superintendent Chalmers, right? Like it's not that he's like failing at seriousness. It is kind of ostensibly a comedic performance of him being the befuddled constantly at the brink of blow up Superintendent Chalmers to Oppenheimer's Skinner.

[00:01:25] I hear what you're saying. Well, not Skinner though. Well, Oppenheimer's not really Skinner, right? Because Skinner's got such a stick up his ass. But he's the Chalmers 2. Just to get my favorite Chalmers joke. He's Professor Frank. Oppenheimer's Professor Frank and Chalmers...

[00:01:43] I feel like I have blood on my hands. Blavin. My favorite Superintendent Chalmers joke is when he says, it's the exact same joke. What gives? Like when the guy gets a laugh out of the kid.

[00:02:01] Just nothing is funnier for me than there's this sort of catch breath on Aurora Borealis. Well, obviously. But just the moment where you can't even... Sort of a scientific moment. That's what I'm saying. The whole movie is sort of that scene.

[00:02:17] Not to jump... We haven't even introduced ourselves. Except for one of my favorite moments in the whole movie is Damon is Groves testifying. And you can tell he doesn't want to say, I wouldn't have approved this guy now. I wouldn't approve any of those guys.

[00:02:35] No, no. He says it. But then he's like, but I wouldn't approve... And you can feel him trying to break outside of the protocol by being like, what the fuck is... Come on, guys.

[00:02:47] He has one of the best answers of anyone in the hearings where Macon Blair asked him the question. I forget what it is. And he said no. The question is, can you believe I'm a Sundance winner? I directed a great movie at Sundance.

[00:02:58] I starred in a great Sundance movie. I directed a great Sundance movie. Sorry, go ahead. And he goes, no. And if I ever for even a moment let anyone in this room to believe otherwise, I apologize.

[00:03:10] There's something where he basically says like, I'm sorry if I created a false expectation or a false understanding. Macon Blair, who plays the guy representing Oppenheimer in the movie, Ben, is both a writer... A nice lawyer man, you know, with the glasses.

[00:03:24] And a filmmaker in his own right. Do you know what his next project is as a filmmaker, Ben? No. Toxic Avenger. That's true. Oh, baby. Wow. Starring Peter Dinklage, right? Yes. And Jason... Jacob Trambley. Jacob Trambley. Yeah. Is anyone friends with him? Anyone know him?

[00:03:44] I know like 40 million people who are his friends. Like he is not many degrees removed from us. Yes. If we ever do Toxic Avenger on Patreon, I think he's a bookable guest. I'm saying spray my ass with some sludge. Get me on set.

[00:03:57] Oh, you're saying go the other way. Well, we got... Come on, reshoots. Reshoots. Patreon go. Ben saying sludge him up. Today, we're not talking about Toxie. We're talking about one of the original Toxic Avengers, J. Robert Oppenheimer. Uh-huh. J. Rob. And what we just... Oppie. Has to be...

[00:04:15] No, J. Rob from now on. J. Rob Oppie. A no bits episode. Very serious. Very serious. It has to be. Yes, of course. Must be. Important. This... It's the most important podcast... This is important. In the history of the world. Right. Yes.

[00:04:33] It's Blank Check with Griffin and David. It's very serious and it's very important. My name is Griffin. My name is David. We got the full deck today. Yeah, I'm producer Ben. I'm here today. I'm social media maven Marie. I'm also here today.

[00:04:49] And we have someone else joining us in the studio on your desk. We do. She had a lot of thoughts about this weekend at the cinema. Her name is film director Barbie. And I believe you said she cost $5 at Ross Dress for Less. It was TJ Maxx.

[00:05:04] It might have been 10 bucks. And my mom bought it for me. Gold. Yeah, I just saw Barbie with a camera and a little viewfinder. And I was like, I need her. Look, this is... It's not a Barbie episode, right? No.

[00:05:20] Because this is a podcast about filmographies, directors who have massive success early on in their career just been given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. And sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce baby.

[00:05:30] And all of what I just said certainly applies to Barbie and the career of Greta Gerwig. But it is not a career we have covered up until this point. Genuinely don't really consider people until they've made four films. I mean, technically, this is her fourth film.

[00:05:46] Would we cover Nights and Weekends if we did Greta Gerwig? That would be like... We'd do that on Patreon or something, right? We'd do that on Patreon in the black hole. Yeah. Movies. Not great.

[00:05:57] We excluded her from Best First Film consideration when Lady Bird came out at the New York Film Critics Circle because of Nights and Weekends. We don't talk about Joe Swanberg anymore. No, and his whole thing was like, well, everyone directed this movie.

[00:06:10] So when people say that was her first co-directing credit, I'm like, she had a big hand in that movie. But his thing was always like, this is a collective... We gave her Best Film instead. I love that for you guys. It was a great moment for us.

[00:06:25] But that was one of two massive movies that came out last weekend. One was Barbie, a film we probably will cover in some future date when Greta Gerwig has made more films. Look, I love and admire the films of Greta Gerwig.

[00:06:37] And I think we'll talk about her one day on this podcast, but not today.

[00:06:40] Right, because she is one of the few people in the modern era, the last 10 years, who has been able to carve out a kind of classic blank check career that keeps on trucking up and up and up.

[00:06:53] While also maintaining complete control of her voice and her style and her worldview. And for a long time, it felt like is Christopher Nolan the last guy who got through the door and got to build a career that way at that scale with that intentionality?

[00:07:08] And these two people were pitted against each other. The box office weekend and what became probably the biggest cultural phenomenon in movies in a decade. Yeah, because all the other biggest weekends were just one giant superhero movie.

[00:07:22] And it's been the problem of one movie over performing to the deficit of all other films in the marketplace. Right, everything getting squeezed out. And you had two very weird movies that came out and played like fucking big titty blockbusters.

[00:07:37] And the second one is Oppenheimer, the movie we are talking about today, the new film by Christopher Nolan who we covered on the podcast back in 2017. Whoa. I believe that's correct. So it was time to Dunkirk? It was time to Dunkirk. Yeah, yeah.

[00:07:55] Our Dunkirk episode came out about a month late, but it was time to hot Dunkirk summer. But yeah, Christopher Nolan is the guy that I think became the modern archetype of that's how you do it. And this guy kind of does one for me, one for them.

[00:08:08] But the one for them still feel personal and the ones for him feel just like even wilder swings. All of them work. And I feel like there was a big a lot of discourse in the last week or so.

[00:08:20] People talking online about like who are the name directors that normies know and how many of them are people who have come up in the last 15 years as opposed to the obvious names like Spielberg who have existed forever. Right. Yeah. And it's a pretty limited group.

[00:08:38] And two of the people who get thrown out is like recent people able to cut through are Gerwig and Jordan Peele. They both had the benefit of being on camera people for 10 to 15 years before their movies hit. Nolan is the guy.

[00:08:53] He is the guy where like you look at this movie in particular and the biggest letters on the poster are a film by Christopher Nolan. That's true. That is the biggest selling point.

[00:09:04] Well the biggest letters are Oppenheimer and that's why people are buying tickets because they love Oppenheimer. The guy. The man. It's hot IP. As does this film. This film loves him unreservedly. Unreservedly. And at the end there's a big thumbs up emoji. Yep. Yep.

[00:09:19] And then underneath it says this thumbs up represents our opinion of the things that he did. If that is your read on the film then congratulations you are correct. You have read this movie properly. Love the discourse. Whatever. Who cares.

[00:09:31] Honestly the discourse on both Barbie and Oppenheimer has been pretty good considering the movies are so seismic. Consider. Because like it's mostly just like I don't know if you guys know this but Mattel had a bit of a hand in Barbie. Yeah. You know the toy company. So.

[00:09:47] I don't know if people know this actually but J. Robert Oppenheimer had a bit of a hand in the creation of the nuclear weapons. This is news to me. He did. On both fronts. I had no idea. Yeah.

[00:09:58] I mean it's not like a plucky little indie film just sort of like crowdfunded or anything like that. Wow. Yeah. We didn't actually you don't actually see the bombs being dropped on Japan and Oppenheimer so that might be why Ben didn't know. Didn't know. Right. Yeah.

[00:10:13] I was I was wondering about that. Yeah. Look this is one of the big things that people are arguing over and we. What if your seat printed out a statement that was like I Christopher Nolan think that that was bad.

[00:10:24] Well that's when people talk about like what are the movie theaters need to do to draw people back in. Right. Seat printers. Yes. See.

[00:10:32] She is just a little roll unfurls right in real time during the movie a running commentary of the director explain to you everything they feel. Or maybe there's like a heat. No I like good good good bad bad bad bad bad. It's like I feel guilty. Good good.

[00:10:48] You should you should. Well I think a lot of what people are chewing over on the some on balance. I'm very into the fact that just the culture is very engaged in trying to wrestle with both of these films. Sure.

[00:11:01] Which I think are both from saying interesting complicated 30 movies that are both kind of wrestling with themselves. Yeah. It's good to have some stupids in there along with some smart. Absolutely. Come on society. Society. And it's much more jealous. It means people are seeing it as society.

[00:11:20] We can't be film director Barbies who also have a perfect understanding of semiotics. True. Right. She's so smart. The bio on the back. She can't climb the stairs. Well she can't climb the stairs. She's a plastic doll. But she can sit in her little chair.

[00:11:36] That's the number one. You throw it or there are a lot of things you can't do stairs. That's the biggest one that jumps out to you. Seems like an issue. The back of her package had like an explanation of what a film director does.

[00:11:48] And I said to Maria, I think this is a better definition than I've heard outlined most places. Like defining like what is what is a director? What does a director do? Yeah. Well. Sets the tone and look of the film.

[00:12:00] It doesn't begin like Andrew Serres defined the auteur theory. No it's not an auteur theory. It's like this is what the job is. The French theory of Maison Sanne. There's nothing foofy about this. Foofy? Film director Barbie wakes up in the morning. What is her day look like?

[00:12:14] Right. She is picked up by a driver to take her to set. Director driver Barbie. Probably. You could argue that's actually the hardest working person on the set because they have to wake up the earliest. Yes. They got to be half an hour before. Right.

[00:12:31] Her Barbie PA gets her a Barbie coffee. Yes. And if she's a good director she knows the PA's name. Right. People would say that's not the most important part of the job. But in a certain way it is. I have a feeling it would be Ken PA.

[00:12:43] Ken would be the PA? Ken would be the PA. On a Barbie film set all the PA's are Ken. We've all seen both films. Yes. Although I believe David is the only one of us to have done the Barbenheimer experience. They screened both on the same day.

[00:13:01] I did do it the same day even after mocking the very concept where I was like guys there are multiple days in a weekend. Like you can fucking spread it out and be okay. Well, well, well.

[00:13:11] I ended up seeing them both the same day because that's what was demanded of me. What a hypocrite. I saw Barbie then Oppenheimer. That was my order. That feels like I saw these films on separate days. I've seen Barbie once now and Oppenheimer twice. Same here?

[00:13:26] I feel like that has to be the order. I initially thought that should be the opposite because it should be fucking. Barbie's the pick me up. Exactly. Get Oppenheimer done. Eat your big meal and then Barbie's your lovely dessert.

[00:13:44] But no, now I'm like no if I saw Oppenheimer I'd be like I don't want to watch another movie right now. I need to go home and sit. That's what our buddy JD Amato did and you joined them just for the second half for the Barbie.

[00:13:53] But they did early Oppenheimer then a big lunch and extended hangout. Gave a couple hours. I think that's tough. I think it is better to do Barbie first because when I was sitting down to see Barbie I'll confess at 30 Hudson yards. The evil headquarters of evil Warner Brothers.

[00:14:10] Sazlov's Castle. Beautiful screening room. I've been looking forward to Barbie but I was kind of like I'm excited for Oppenheimer. Day before you were throwing a couple of strays at Barbie. You walked out and said I'm seeing Barbie tomorrow. I went that's exciting.

[00:14:28] You went it's going to be. I get it. I know what Barbie's going to be and then Barbie surprised me. You cried two times? I did choke up. I cried twice. I choked up just like a footage of children playing. I was just like me. Yeah. You're coming.

[00:14:48] You're a look you're becoming a bit of a Kevin Smith. No disrespect to you. I've always been an easy cry. That's what I'm saying. And I respect I expect respect the emotional access that both of you have. A lack of guardedness. I didn't cry at all.

[00:15:03] Steely disposition the entire time. Didn't even laugh. No Ben just sat and he listened. Yeah you sat your your your boy ass down. Yeah. Respectfully. With my fist on my chin. So yeah but no it was a bit of a tiring day because I watch Barbie.

[00:15:20] I like Barbie. And then I had to race to the office and review Barbie. Race to Lincoln Square to meet Mr. Oppenheimer. Doctor. Oh I was going to say I was going to say no I can't say because it's a future mini series. We had an episode scheduled.

[00:15:34] We were supposed to do a podcast in between. That would have been in retrospect insane. I'll say this. I won't say what what movie it was but it was an Alex Ross Perry. Certainly a big one. Certainly a big one.

[00:15:46] And we knew it was going to take a lot of time and it was probably going to be fiery. And it was smart to bump it to a different day. But yes you had some reset time and then we we all saw Oppenheimer. We did.

[00:15:56] Yes except for Ben. You Marie and I saw Oppenheimer and then Ben Marie and I saw Oppenheimer a couple days after that. Then apparently Ben just went and saw it again. Yeah I did. Solo solo bolo. You just you just took your ass to a matinee.

[00:16:10] Regal Astoria was it. That's right. It was you know it was so nice about it. As a resident of New York City. Yeah. How rarely do you get to drive and park at a parking garage. Go see a fucking movie. Damn. That was a real fucking luxury.

[00:16:28] My question about the it's the Kaufman. The Regal Kaufman Astoria. It's right by what you call it. What's the Museum of the Moving Image. Well that but also what's the soundstage that's by the Silver Cup. No it's not Silver Cup. Is it Kaufman. Yeah.

[00:16:43] So I have been here. I haven't been to that Regal in a minute. But do they still have the Alvin and the chipmunks in the lobby or did they take those away. Finally got rid of. I don't think. Right. No I just remember seeing the Barbie display. OK.

[00:16:58] I think they're as recent as spies in disguise. I'm seeing right. I think they finally only recently during the pandemic. I think I retired them. Well if anyone has a nice farm up. Yeah. If anyone knows where those guys are. I'd love to know.

[00:17:13] But we we saw it first time in 70 millimeter. Yeah. Which is still the one time you have seen it David. And then we saw it in IMAX. Yeah I'll go see an IMAX in four weeks when there are tickets available. I know. I know.

[00:17:26] This thing's selling like crazy. I literally saw someone selling a ticket for a thousand dollars. I saw that too. It's wild. I don't know if he's successful. Someone in our Reddit was selling tickets for like one hundred dollars to the same screening that we went to on Sunday.

[00:17:38] Yeah. That's wild. If they had known that we were going to that screening they might have upped the price a bit. Yeah. You guys got good seats? We did. We got really good seats. All credit to Marie who jumped. She pounced. Yeah. The second they went on stage.

[00:17:56] But all this to say David you have not seen IMAX yet. Ben the second time you saw it I imagine it was digital or do you know? Yeah it was 2D. Good old fashioned laser. 2D. 2D.

[00:18:07] What if Ben came in here and he was like it was a 3D film? It sounded 3D. I didn't even film that thing. They just kind of projected it sideways. And had like a couple extra walls. It was fucked up. Is it a tilt your head?

[00:18:21] It was less of a screening and more of a play. I have seen it. They just had like regal employees come out. It was about a bunch of Mormons like you know singing. I don't know it didn't seem like I'm hiring myself at all.

[00:18:30] It was so different the first time around. They were in suits. It was funny. Right it went to like Africa. I don't know but maybe it was a different cut. I've never seen like the whole plot every cast member change between two screenings of the same film.

[00:18:48] Oh boy. Beautiful theater though. Why did you land on Book of Mormon? I have to pick a running like a long running show. I already pulled the Hamilton reference. I took that off the table.

[00:19:04] Book of Mormon is kind of funny because you're just kind of like oh it's just running. I mean and talk about discourse we can't talk about Wicked right now. Yeah. Too hot to touch. I think this movie is incredibly good. I do too.

[00:19:20] I would go so far as to call it a masterpiece. I will say walking out second time Marie and I looked at each other and I kind of feel like it might be a masterpiece. Very excited that you guys felt that way after.

[00:19:31] But also just the way knowing everything going in. This is a movie where you're watching it the first time and I think there's a bit of a twist but it's a twist just in perspective right.

[00:19:42] It's not a plot twist as much as it's like reframing how you've thought about the movie. And I do think because Nolan is the biggest name involved in this movie I'm not saying he's the most famous.

[00:19:52] Person but much like Barbie they're both examples where everyone in the audience is pretty much sitting there going. What does Christopher Nolan have to say about Robert Oppenheimer which is a pretty fucking unique position to have like mainstream culture. Like I know who this guy is.

[00:20:08] I understand his oeuvre and I'm trying to figure out why he wants to make this movie right. It's not just us nerds spinning on this.

[00:20:16] And I think for a lot of the film that's like kind of one of the central tensions is like what is it that's driving him to this. What is the thing he wants to say. What is he exploring.

[00:20:27] I think it's what all the discourse is about is like what is he trying to do and what is he avoiding doing and all that sort of I don't want to talk about the fucking discourse. We already had our fun with them. Absolutely.

[00:20:37] I found this film very interesting through the prism of Nolan who is a guy who is like as chewed upon as any modern director but in so many ways does feel kind of unknowable. It is very easy to make jokes about him.

[00:20:55] It is very easy to parody him.

[00:20:56] It is very easy to do analysis of his work and identify what his themes are and what like what we can sort of extrapolate like this is clearly a fear in his life because he keeps on going back to this or this is the thing he loves because he keeps on putting this on screen.

[00:21:11] But in a certain way his interviews are always very clinical. You know. Sure. He's not someone who's going out there and doing like crazy self promotion. No he's he's a reserve British. He's a reserve British man. Through right. He doesn't feel guarded.

[00:21:26] It's been so interesting to see Robert Downey Jr. talk to the press because Robert Downey Jr. has no filter in a way that very few stars like you know because he just what does he care. Right.

[00:21:36] And he's genuinely bigger than anyone else in this movie in his way. I just want to pause you right here and say to our listeners if you have not read The New York Times interview with Robert Downey Jr. you have to.

[00:21:45] But I also watched a lot of these you know they do these fun the wired autocomplete and these round tables and stuff. Timeline of my career and all those things.

[00:21:53] Other actors have said this too but the way Robert Downey Jr. talks about how like you think you're going in on set he probably was imagining something of a finchery experience of this sort of like I need this exact. You know I got all the blocking.

[00:22:07] I know exactly how this supposed to look in my head and we're just going to do it again and again until I get it right. And apparently with Nolan it's much more like no no no no marks on the floor. Let's feel out the space.

[00:22:16] We're going to figure this all out together and somehow it'll be quick. Yes. And kind of gentle like you know like and you're like this movie has tons of people. Yeah. Right.

[00:22:25] Like all these conversational scenes where there's a bunch of different like elements of human elements to consider. Benny Safdie his interview with Bilge I highly recommend. That is another filmmaker talking about how a filmmaker works. Yes. With reverence and specificity.

[00:22:41] Bilge was very deep in the Oppenheimer trenches and everything he's been posting from his Oppenheimer findings and all his interviews that he did over months and months and months. All of it's worth reading. Yes. And like I said like I know how filmmaking works. I've run sets myself.

[00:22:56] Yes. And I get the call sheet and I go like this scene is going to be a fucking nightmare. It's eight pages. It has 100 extras. We're in the middle of the desert. It's this and that. The dialogue is really intense. Right.

[00:23:12] How are we going to get this all done in one day. And we were done by lunch and we were done by lunch without feeling rushed or panic where it all felt very organic.

[00:23:15] And a lot of it is that when a filmmaker gets to this level people know what they like and what they want. The greatest sort of like power they have earned is the luxury of people backing the fuck off. Right.

[00:23:34] And letting them do things their way and not interfering. It's like you have trusted collaborators you hire people who have a sense of like I understand how I'm going to fit into his worldview. And they let things play out kind of organically. You know what a G. Yeah.

[00:23:47] I think he's a cool guy. I do. And I do think like he had to do a lot more press for this movie because of the strikes. Yeah. Although they banked a ton of stuff.

[00:23:57] But especially in the two weeks leading up to it he's the one guy doing TV interviews and things like that. He's a celebrity director. He's a fucking name.

[00:24:05] I just think I saw less of him going out there and doing the sort of personality stuff as opposed to just sort of like the junket video clips that would get recirculated. Yeah. No I mean I think things like. Wasn't he on The View?

[00:24:17] He was on The View. Yeah. He's a guest host on The View all the time. He's always he's always jumping in. He and Whoopi always cut it off.

[00:24:27] Like obviously Tenet basically the publicity for Tenet was very limited because no one was like interacting with each other back then. And then like Dunkirk I remember like because in Dunkirk he really was like the name. Yes.

[00:24:40] And I guess it was sort of similar to this publicity rollout. I don't really feel like he felt looser in this round of press as loose as he ever gets. Yeah. I mean he's still a reserved Brit.

[00:24:52] But he did admit that Talladega Nights is one of his favorite movies on a tick tock. If you ain't first you're last. Like you know you said like that. I can't believe I got you to say that. I feel like he's shouted out that movie before.

[00:25:05] I'm trying to remember. It rang a bell. Well if I Google it now it'll just be that. He is also one of those guys where everyone who works with him says like because there's this feeling of like is he secretive? Is he private? Is he loose?

[00:25:17] Is he unknowable? And everyone who works with him is like really nice guy. Right. Like it has his oddness but with like a nice personable man. No yelling. Right. And he's not like performatively obtuse you know or distant or whatever.

[00:25:31] And the thing you always hear from people is like he watches everything. Right. Well. He's like not a snob about movies. I'm going to shout it out. Our friend Bobby Finger ran into him at the Regal Essex. What was he doing? Watching Skinner Meringue baby.

[00:25:47] That's the thing I love where he's like. Poor Christopher Nolan. Skinner Meringue was all right. No it was not David. I know you bought a ticket.

[00:25:57] I know you went to see in theaters but you texted us in the middle of the movie and said I'm currently inside of my coat hiding from Skinner Meringue. Yes. It was a deeply unpleasant experience. Films should not be experienced through a coat. Christopher Nolan.

[00:26:12] I've always said coats will be the death of the theatrical experience. I will. Netflix is giving everyone coats. I will say that I was reminded. David Zaslav is trying to put coats on the American viewing public. I like Nolan impressions. Just so quiet and serious.

[00:26:28] Doing ASMR right into the mic. I do love when he was like HBO is the shittiest streaming service. Everyone was like no it's not. I was like he's mad guys. It's OK. It's got some good shows on it.

[00:26:42] I'm like I don't think he went through the library of HBO Max. I'm fucking furious. I'm going to drag HBO Max on main. Now I have another HBO point to make. But my first point about Skinner Meringue is I was thinking of Skinner Meringue

[00:26:53] with the audio jump scares in Oppenheimer. Sure. Those are the only two movies I can remember seeing in a theater. He saw Skinner Meringue. It's like we got to crank the volume up. Open it back up again. Did you notice that Skinner Meringue got a special thing?

[00:27:09] Like the demon? Yes. OK. So that was my Skinner Meringue thought and then my HBO thought is there's a lot of different things going on. I want to talk about Warner's scheduling Barbie to go up against Oppenheimer as a petty fuck you.

[00:27:26] As a spite, you know, a spite store kind of thing. This is basically Big Nolan weekend. The majority of his films or a good chunk of them and especially most of the his highest grossing films have come out between July 20th and July 20th.

[00:27:39] Every film except for Tenet which was intended to come out then. Obviously it was pushed a bit. And Interstellar which is pretty much the only movie he didn't make entirely with WB and was put out in the fall. And I bet you he wishes he put that out.

[00:27:54] Yes. And Batman Begins was June but from Dark Knight on they're all basically his lucky end of July corridor. But my question didn't H didn't what is now Max remove Westworld the Jonathan Nolan show? Did they? I think they removed it. They sold it to.

[00:28:17] But do you think that was part of the fuck you Nolan family? I know. That's their general income. Yeah. I don't know that to me. I was like they did. They did that. They sold it to like fucking Fubo or whatever. Yeah. I bought it. All right.

[00:28:39] I bought it. Yeah. I gave him 800 bucks and you know whatever a bottle of wine. That was like they also like Zaslav wrote a check to Nolan for like 10 bucks. Sorry. Yeah. Although then it was just like well but it was just residuals like

[00:28:55] as I was trying to spin it is like I gave him a really healthy kind of and then other people like no those are just like residuals he was owed. Yeah. No. I do know one thing. It didn't work or matter this this spite really. No. Helped helped.

[00:29:12] It's one of those sort of magic. It happens sometimes. Yeah. Maybe Barbie sold out and you end up in Oppenheimer or vice versa. Maybe both are sold out and you're like fine. Dial a destiny. He's looking for. Well do you know. Yeah.

[00:29:29] You know who Paw Patrol is going up again. You know this Ben Paw Patrol. There's a new one. It's called Paw Patrol the Mighty Paws movie or the Mighty Movie or something. The Mighty Movie. It's the second movie which is now they all get superpowers right. Yeah.

[00:29:45] So the movie is about a girl who's at Lionsgate rode its tricycle up and the new Barb and Heimer is saw patrol. So it comes out the same day as the Mighty Movie. And there's a lot of audience cross the overlap.

[00:29:59] So can I just we'll talk about Oppenheimer parents dragging their kids. I'm going to I'm going to I sat through Mighty Movie you have to sit through saw with me. So little Tim I'm going to we're going to start Oppenheimer after I say this thing.

[00:30:11] OK I feel like I'm setting I'm setting the marker. Yeah. So this is the movie that's been announced. Yes it will stars Tobin Bell the jigsaw killer. It's about him going to Mexico to get experimental health treatment. Right. Because of course Tobin Bell dies in Saw 2.

[00:30:27] Yes and saw three a set around his autopsy. And then I believe as the saws progress they had increasing trouble trying to work him in. Right. So there's all this like timeline fuckery and fill in gaps like with flashbacks and stuff.

[00:30:39] And so this one they're just like we're set between saws one and two. OK so he's in it. And then oh you know the most terrifying thing of all the health care system. Yeah. Funny joke by me just fucking trolling wait that health care

[00:30:53] so that's because he needs like cancer treatment. Wait but that's literally I thought you were making a joke. No no no. He does die of cancer. It's the whole motivation for his twist. I haven't seen any of the saws. So I've only seen saws one and two.

[00:31:09] And of course I did open the book of saw. You did. Yes. And I was like I don't know what saw six is about. And I'm like OK. No no you don't understand. So six is kind of the best one. I'm like I can feel it in me.

[00:31:25] The piece of me that just watched all the insidious is where I'm just like am I going to have to watch all the saws. No you're going to. God damn it. I think I am. Yeah I'll skip spiral. I saw that one.

[00:31:41] Yeah and maybe I skipped the original because seen the original a few times although maybe it'll be nice to walk through it again. Yeah maybe do it on page saw. Do it. We're not doing take up half the year. There's so many of these fucking movies.

[00:31:55] Wait so he's actually like is he in a puppet cost. No no. The puppet is just like a little robot. Yeah. So he's got a robot puppet and then he sends to talk because the puppet is named Jigsaw and he's also known as the pup.

[00:32:09] The puppet's name is Billy Billy. On the tricycle. Wait really. Yeah. I was like wait bluey is a girl. Yeah bluey's a girl. But Bingo's a girl as well. They're sisters. But I thought Bluey was a boy. Why because he's blue. Yes. Maybe you better check yourself.

[00:32:32] I know. Well so Bluey is very Barbie thinking. Bluey's parents are Bandit who is blue. Right. They're both Australian herding dogs or whatever. Right. And Chilly who is sort of brown. And Chilly looks like the boy.

[00:32:47] The boy looks like the dad and the girl looks like the mom. They got two girls baby. I'm sorry gender essentialism. Look I'm currently writing a Bluey article because they put up some new episodes and my editors were eager for it.

[00:32:57] But I recently was talking to my wife. Your editor is your two and a half year old daughter. Bluey. Bluey. I mean she literally was asking me for Bluey today. And I was just having a conversation with my wife. My child is not even in the room.

[00:33:11] I was like do you think Bandit and Chilly will have a third kid because like there is a third kid. And I was like I'm not even thinking of the show. Like the show is it was actually moving forward in time.

[00:33:19] Would the kid with the third kid be a mix. Well we know I was I was just sort of floating the idea I was like I think and she was like no but they threw out the crib in that one episode.

[00:33:27] And I was like I said they're probably done. They're probably done. And I was like wait I'm talking about them like they're real people. You're analyzing it like a madman. They could it could be like the element of surprise.

[00:33:39] And that is a very I've heard Bluey is very realistic in the way it deals with human emotion. It is it is. I love Bluey so much. I just thought it was funny that I was talking about them like I was talking about my friends.

[00:33:51] I'm not a kid. OK let's have Bluey on the show. Absolutely. I would I mean I would die. We don't know that who voices Bluey though. They don't put it in. It's like an Australian child voice. Bluey is a cartoon. An animated story.

[00:34:09] It's like the tension of Ben trying to book Chappy to be on the show. I mean we got film director Barbie here. We do have film director Barbie. It's not hard. She's pretty quiet though I will say. Yes she's not saying a word.

[00:34:22] Well because she's not on mic. She has headphones but she's not on mic. We haven't done a levels. OK Oppenheimer. Christopher Nolan's Oppenheimer. Released July 21st. 2023. Just you know to sort of quickly line things up. Right. It's like Nolan's this guy he many times on

[00:34:42] the step that is missing from most people's career which is the insomnia between Memento and Batman. Right. You sort of get to level up with bigger stars and a bigger budget but you're not immediately thrown into franchise churn. Sure. And Batman Begins was this example of like we

[00:35:00] feel so defeated by Batman and Robin we got to let you do whatever you want. He makes something that's very much him. Are you recapping Nolan's whole career right now? I'm doing a very brief overview to build to a very specific point. 1939. Hitler invades Poland.

[00:35:16] Well it's another career worth looking at. Hitler? I don't think so. Not a good one. I'm not saying we should cover him. I'm not saying we should cover him. It was influential. OK. I don't like the guy. At all. In fact I'm downshifting on this.

[00:35:38] I quite dislike him. On a personal level. I'm not a fan of the fellow. Uh huh. No. No I'm not sure we should. I don't know. It's the Norm Macdonald bit. The Hitler the more I read about this guy the less I like him. Anyway. Christopher Nolan.

[00:36:03] But most of his films are being made at Warner Brothers. Yeah. He Dark Knight is the moment where it's like holy fucking shit. It's like oh wow this guy can do anything he wants. Continues to have this run where he gets to write the rules of his career.

[00:36:21] And running parallel with that is him more and more taking on this role as the spokesperson of what he thinks is like the culture of cinema that needs to be preserved. What he feels like is at stake is that in danger. Right.

[00:36:35] A hundred percent. He is a deep and vocal advocate for seeing movies in a movie theater and for seeing and for the use of large format filming you know to emphasize the power cinema. Yeah. And a lot of the covering of him

[00:36:47] is like is he a weird Luddite. He doesn't have a smartphone. He doesn't check emails. Right. All these things. So this obviously all builds to Tenet Tenet which is just set up as another Chris Nolan movie. Sure. Here's just going to be another one another big summer.

[00:37:05] I think also he seemed to have been settling into this sort of like I'm going to go like slightly more prestige slightly more genre like I'll flip the switch of the one for me one for Dunkirk was a little more still a big you know that's a movie.

[00:37:19] All of them are still hitting. None of them are too esoteric to play mainstream audience. But Tenet was more like let me do sort of a sci-fi James Bond movie blah blah blah. I think it was on the Big Picture podcast they talked about it felt

[00:37:35] like Dunkirk and Tenet back to back were him sort of like splitting his own Adam his interests right. Yes. You know what Tenet does. Oh Lord that movie is absolute sex for a sexless film. And it should have called it tantric. But the way you're describing it

[00:37:51] I'm eager to see it again. I really hope they put it back in. That's what I want. I want my chance to see that movie and I'm like I saw it in IMAX. I went to Lincoln Square but I just was so overwhelmed being back in a

[00:38:05] movie theater. What's this you know swill on the schedule and sort of late August or whatever clear it out. I'm like I'm going to get called on the IMAX. What is the Mighty movie. The Paw Patrol movie. Jesus they're going to come fucking arrest me.

[00:38:25] Throw me in their fire truck. Tenet F's so hard. And in retrospect the movie made 360 million dollars in 2020. I mean it is it did pretty good. I mean it's sort of impossible to kind of evaluate that movie. I think you and I were talking about

[00:38:41] how quietly in certain ways. Yeah kind of the best thing that could happen for him and that like he was getting to this point in his career where it's like well now the pressure and the expectation is so high on each of his movies because

[00:38:57] the guy essentially doesn't miss. Right. He hasn't whiffed right. And right. So he whiffs but it's like sort of an understandable whiff or whatever right. Like I out of his out of his control movie has been seen as a bit of a disappointment because it is it is

[00:39:15] a very elusive movie. It's hard to know though it might have done well maybe we have no idea. But like we were saying his worst his worst movie I think most people think is Dark Knight Rises. I think that I yeah. Yeah sure.

[00:39:32] I mean I think following is whatever maybe you know maybe exclude his worst major movie is Dark Knight Rises. I would say a movie that made a lot of money. That sure does have its big defenders and also at the time was positively received its sort of

[00:39:47] reputation has gone through weird shifts over time over the last decade. Right. But tennis the one that maybe would have divided people a little bit more and it came out in such weird circumstances but part of those circumstances were that Nolan felt

[00:40:03] this pressure of like I can feel cinema culture slipping away. We have to reopen the theaters we have to get this movie in theaters we have to get this movie out there and we have to get it out there. And as you said you step back.

[00:40:16] It's insane that that movie made 60 million dollars coming out when you sure. And you know 360 bananas. It basically had four to five months where there was nothing else playing in theaters what it was September to December basically. Right. Sure. That whole time is a bit of a blur

[00:40:34] same. But it did. It did create this odd thing of like oh there's this Christopher Nolan movie that very few people saw it IMAX I see it mostly at home. What whatever. And then there's this sort of a whole Warner Brothers they announced

[00:40:49] they're going to put all their 20 22 movies on HBO 2021 Jesus on HBO Max and Nolan is just like fuck this HBO Max streaming service. I'm leaving. I'm going to Universal. Rather he said I'm a free agent free agent. Apparently Paramount dropped out fast because they were also making

[00:41:08] a lot of like streaming is the same thing. And so he was like not interested. So I think the major players for his business were basically Sony and Universal. Yes. And he really likes Donna Langley who runs Universal. Yeah. And she's very she's

[00:41:24] more old school I would say. And she probably he probably responded to that and they gave him a big budget. Yeah obviously 100 day exclusive theater. You know like you know we're not going to put it on streaming for a year. We're going to put it on a schedule

[00:41:40] where it's like there's no universal release like three weeks either side. Right. They gave him a real sweetheart. They rolled out the red carpet. As you said when he goes like I'm a free agent now you go every fucking studio in Hollywood is

[00:41:50] going to be fighting to get Nolan guy who has pretty much been loyal to one studio from the moment he became the biggest director alive. And it wasn't even like a certain point. He's no longer the biggest director of his generation. It's like Spielberg's name doesn't

[00:42:04] mean as much as it used to to general audiences. He's not at the same level that Nolan does like his movies just fucking pack him in. Yeah. Yeah. Like someone like Tarantino maybe is more of a celebrity figure but his movies are not made for his wide audience.

[00:42:18] His movies do really well. Totally. Spielberg makes a lot of movies. Yes. And yeah he's not a guaranteed. There used to be a halo effect where all there's still something of one. But yes he doesn't. And he doesn't also Spielberg just doesn't feel commercially minded as much anymore.

[00:42:34] Like I feel like he's just kind of like I should. And when he tries to make a commercial movie it arguably now works less well than when he just does whatever interests him at that moment. I agree. But wait question. Yeah. Would you call Oppenheimer a commercially minded.

[00:42:51] Well I don't know. This is my point. The moment that he's a free agent you're like everyone's going to be fighting over him. And then the story comes out what he wants to do is J. Robert Oppenheimer and you go like

[00:43:01] oh but he's going to want to do it his way. He's not going to go let me make a little 20 million dollar palate cleanser movie. He's going to want to make a Nolan sized harrowing drama about excuse me what is possibly the most devastating decision in human history.

[00:43:16] Sure. Right. The fact that like Universal will let the red carpet for him was very exciting but I have for the last couple of years been like is this going to blow up in everyone's face. You were pun intended. You were wrong. I'm excited to see this movie.

[00:43:32] Yeah. Is him insisting on doing it his size at this scale and this style and everything is it's going to lead to a moment where it's like Oh Torsen emerged dead. We cannot indulge these people. No we are so we're so bad.

[00:43:46] I mean look I'll also say yes it's even if it's still a World War Two movie of sorts. It's got that hook for you know older audiences and he was able to get a lot of big ass stars and supporting one in the world wants to work.

[00:44:02] Yes everyone. I mean casting RDJ is the perfect example of him being like you're going to meeting with anyone and they'll say yes. Yeah. Who would say no to him. Daniel Day Lewis. Right. Maybe people who are retired. That's it. No Hackman would do it.

[00:44:16] Hackman would do it. You have to play fat man. He's like all right. Almost everyone who has more than five lines in this movie has at one point been number one on a call sheet. I think so. Right. Yeah absolutely. At some level at some scale some

[00:44:31] sort of project. Well no I was like going to say Josh Peck Drake and Josh but then was he probably number one on the wackness. He was number one in the world. I'm saying like even if everyone here isn't like a total movie star

[00:44:42] almost everyone who speaks has at one point had to carry a thing themselves. That's why he cast Thirlby as well going up to the monster. I love the way this is what I find so fascinating about him. He was selling Italian maybe he's seen the wackness four times

[00:44:57] probably seen the fucking wackness we all we all saw the wackness admit it you saw it. I actually didn't. I didn't either. It's not bad. Wasn't it about NYU. It was like Washington Square Park movie. It's what's his name you know 50 50 guy.

[00:45:11] Oh yeah I didn't see that movie. It's got Olivia Thirlby in it my crush at the time. I loved her. I mean I still love her. Yeah it's so funny how he does and I don't really know. He's got this parallel track thing

[00:45:21] right where it's like he loves to take guys like Modine and like Modine's been number one on the fucking call sheet. Of course he has. Rutger Hauer. Tom Berenger. There's a lot of exactly. Yes these guys were they were sort of like briefly leading men in the

[00:45:39] guys who got some weight. They got a little ballast right Eric Roberts and then they maybe ended up a little bit in the wilderness they kept working but they weren't given the serious projects and he loves to give him these media supporting roles and

[00:45:48] then he also loves his West Bentley's is Josh Hartnett's his Olivia Thirlby and Wimpy Kid. Right. But this movie also on track rules and Dane DeHaan where it's like here are guys that Hollywood started to like put all their weight behind put the pressure on

[00:46:05] them then very quickly kind of discarded them and went maybe you don't have what it takes and he's like there's a reason they were in the conversation. Well give him a couple scenes with some real meat. Well I'll just show you their steady hand they know what they're

[00:46:16] doing. I think there's more going on than that though and we should talk about this film in general but I do think he also knows there are no composite characters in this film. Yes. So he's not doing the usual short cutting he would use for biographical film.

[00:46:30] He knows if you just fucking recognize the guy's face. Huge. When he pops back up 20 minutes later he'll be like yeah that guy right. I saw you know yeah fucking Dane DeHaan I get it. I get who he is. He needs people pinned in your mind.

[00:46:42] And he is always has been and is such a good caster of actors. He just totally everyone in this movie fits exactly what they're supposed to be doing. Yeah. And like maybe there's no one in this movie where you're like wow that's a really surprising choice

[00:46:56] like everyone you're kind of like yeah he makes sense to do this. Hartnett is maybe the closest. I would say. I think he's he works so well. Rock solid. Oh I mean to be clear I love it but he's the one where you're

[00:47:05] kind of like oh I really haven't seen him do this before. No. No. No. I never checked in with old Penny Dreadful. I know he was. I bet he's like a wolf man. I don't think it's this. Maybe he's a smart wolf man.

[00:47:17] No I just also love that they're all theoretical physicists. They're all these like you know nerds with lunch pails and then he's the one like practical physicist and he's like a beefy boy. He's just like a nice guy. He's just like a nice Midwestern man.

[00:47:29] He's like I built a cyclotron. You want to check it out? I think Josh Hartnett is from Minnesota or something. You want to shoot some Adams around? Where's he from? Let's find out. I think he's from Minnesota. I think he is. Well you know what? What?

[00:47:41] Why don't I just Google him and then we'll get the answer for sure and then we'll all be happy. Minnesota nice. Looks like he's from a little place called Minnesota. Wow. Told ya. I told ya. 10,000 lakes? I know a lot of lakes.

[00:47:53] Let's talk about a guy who has grown into his look. But that's also with Nolan I think he really likes the guy who's been here for 10, 20 years and has settled into their look. Has some history. Has some weight as you said. Even when he's cast in Wimpy

[00:48:05] Kid he's like well you've been you know you had your time with Wimpy Kid. I know he's not Wimpy Kid. He's Roderick. And Roderick rules. Yes. What does that mean? That's a spin off. The second. Is he Wimpy Kid's friend or enemy?

[00:48:18] No no no no wait a second here. I asked if he was friend or enemy. He is Wimpy Kid's bully older brother. Oh. And the second Wimpy Kid movie in the original franchise before they reboot it the first of two times is called Roderick Rules.

[00:48:35] The subtitle is Roderick Rules and it is that the parents who I believe are Steve Zahn and Rachel Harris in the original. Sounds right. They leave Wimpy Kid alone for the weekend with Roderick. Roderick. Devon Bostic is the actor. Rules. He is in charge and he decides to

[00:48:55] throw a big ass party in which no alcohol is drank because the movie is PG. And you know what Devon Bostic is in as well. He is in Oak Joppa. Do you know what else he's in? What? Sause 6. It all comes back to Sause 6. He's in Sause 6? David?

[00:49:11] He is! I don't know what he does there. I just know he's in it. Is Shawnee Smith in Sause 6? Well she's in a lot of Sause. She's in almost all of them. Yeah yeah. She's in most Sause. We can't get into Becker talking. We can't do it.

[00:49:22] We can't do it. So. Ben just play the theme song for us. No. Glad you said no to that. Okay so what's most interesting about this film to me is that it was conceived, put together and written all post-Tenet. Yes. Which is how Nolan operates.

[00:49:38] I know that he's very much like I work on the movie I'm working on and then when it's done I look for the next thing and then I work on that. So when he had such a comfortable home at Warner Brothers it's just like I decide

[00:49:47] what I want to do and then I just bring it to them. It's a thing. I get that. I get that the idea that like he can move heaven and earth in terms of logistics. I'm just like so this is based on a biography written in 2005

[00:49:58] called American Prometheus that won the Pulitzer Prize by Kai Byrd and Martin Sherwood. I have read this book. Congratulations David. And let me tell you it's very good. This fucker is a doorstop. It's a big bulls- Didn't it take him like 20 years to write it? Yeah. It's like.

[00:50:16] Well it was like 20 years to do all the research. Research and all that. And it's a very very comprehensive work that's like really trying to take you through like every single person he knew and all. It just I can't imagine picking up this book and being like yeah

[00:50:29] I could fucking squeeze this thing into a screenplay. Like Pattinson gives him the book. No no Pattinson gave him. This is very interesting. OK. So Robert Pattinson by the way sounds like a great gift giver because post-Tenet he gives him Oppenheimer's like speeches.

[00:50:45] Oh packaged up together as a wrap gift because of course in Tenet they mention. Yes. The sort of Oppenheimer's fear that he was about to ignite the atmosphere. Yeah. And he's Pattinson who just I swear to God the sexiest smartest guy he said he felt

[00:51:04] that Tenet's main idea was what if you could un-invent an awful technology? What if you could put toothpaste back in the tube? Right. Of course Tenet is about what if goes backwards. What if. What if things go backwards. Yes. And what if friends all along.

[00:51:18] So he gives this of course he gives this to Nolan and Nolan's like hmm. And then he learns of this book which has been optioned by Charles Roven because James Woods the actor gave it to him. Wait wait wait wait. Yes that's James Woods. Yes that James Woods.

[00:51:32] We okay because we saw that credit and assumed it had to be someone a different James Woods. What? So this was because Roven was his main producer at Warner Brothers for years. So you mean to tell me that James Woods gets a cut of the

[00:51:48] box office receipts for this movie? Possibly I don't I mean you know money's flowing in all kinds of directions. No one should see Oppenheimer. Wait a second. Mendes. Sam Mendes had been initially interested in making an Oppenheimer movie. This is set up like early 2000s? Yeah.

[00:52:02] Mendes makes sense. The book is 2005? Five. Correct. Okay. Yeah. And you know this book gets put in Nolan's hands and it's announced in September 2021 that he will write this book. So he probably wrote this script over the summer. They'll write the movie. Yeah. Direct this movie.

[00:52:23] He's going to write the book actually. He's going to write the book and I'm going to do a better job. And yeah as I said you know his services are off the grabs when Universal gets them. Yeah. But it just I just he's put the

[00:52:36] whole fucking book into this script. Yeah. Which seems like just like a tough job. He said I'm sure you've read this script that his famed sort of Howard Hughes book script. Yes. A biopic he wrote like 20 years ago that he never made.

[00:52:51] He was going to make it with Jim Carrey and he never made it because of the aviator. But he said like that really taught me how to write a biopic. Right. And I'm doing here what I was doing there. He's not obviously reusing material but he's reusing the

[00:53:05] way he cracked it. Yes. Whatever it is. Which is very interesting. David let's admit also the major X factor here is the pandemic. Yeah. You're saying how did he put together so quickly. But still he's got like fucking four kids to raise. But we were we were texting

[00:53:20] like how interesting it is that it feels like Asteroid City Barbie and Oppenheimer. Three movies by three of our biggest kind of name brand auteurs we have working today. Right. Yeah. Or all these like star studded everyone stuck in the middle of the desert. What who am I.

[00:53:39] What am I doing. What is my life about movies. These weird existential crisis movies that are all kind of about like I mean Asteroid City makes it literal that there is a quarantine you know. But all of them are these sort of weird formed intentional bubble

[00:53:53] society stranded in the middle of nowhere. And it does feel like all three came out of these people being like what do I write now. You know like in this destabilized time. And no for sure I'm sure the end of the world is on his mind

[00:54:07] in a different way. Yeah. And obviously this film does feel like more current because we've been talking about nuclear war more gas in recent times because of Russia. Yes but also these are I mean the way we talk about technology the way we talk about the tiny

[00:54:26] decisions made in the lead up to and during the pandemic that had these ripple effects that were so great. I think it is the number one thing this movie is about which I think is interesting is like just the position of being

[00:54:44] placed in a position where you have the been given the power to make an incredibly consequential decision under intense pressure and a decision that cannot be undone. Right. You saying the framing of the like the tenant question like what if you could undo a bad invention.

[00:55:02] And this is the opposite of that movie. This is what do you do after you've done that. Right. Right. That's part of what this movie is about. Right. Seems confounding for some I've seen some complaints about the latter like act of this movie don't really understand that but

[00:55:19] it's you know crucially important. Yes. And obviously it's very important to the biography like because it's a huge part of his life. You know I think Nolan's trying to understand as well. I have things to say about this but like you know why did he put

[00:55:31] himself through this hearing when he knew he was going to lose his security clearance and all that like you know which we can talk about. Yeah. That's it. I think I see I've seen a lot of readings of this movie that are sort of saying like well Nolan

[00:55:45] relates to Oppenheimer. Nolan is using Oppenheimer as like a surrogate character and I think it's that he fundamentally is like kind of confused by Oppenheimer as a guy. This is a movie about him trying to crack him. I think it's the whole reason that

[00:55:58] the narrative is so fractured because his final conclusion is this guy was kind of unknowable I think to himself. There's the line Benny Safdie's character has about like the great Sphinx of modern science or whatever. It feels like the only person in this movie who actually knows him

[00:56:14] is Kitty. To some degree it feels like she at least knows his flaws and yeah his inner turmoil. She has him read better than he has knows himself. And so much of the story is about like you know this film starts out. I keep on when I'm like

[00:56:30] revisiting this movie in my mind getting ready to talk about it for this episode. The image I keep on going back to is him in university in the first 20 minutes of the movie when he's lying awake in bed at night and it looks like he's having a nervous

[00:56:42] breakdown. He's like drenched in sweat and floppy haired and whatever. And he's like seeing these like physics spirals over his head. And it's like this movie starts and he's a guy who basically it hurts him to be alive. Yes. He can sort of that's how Nolan is

[00:56:57] representing it right. They can like see the world in a subatomic way. Right. Right. And he does very function. That's a big part of his biography. Not only he struggled a lot in his 20s. Not only can he like not function socially engaging with other

[00:57:10] people but he also isn't even doing well in classes. His brain is like such active chaos that it's like he just feels like a raw nerve of a human being where you're like well this guy's not going to make it to 25.

[00:57:22] He was good at theory bad at lab. Yes. It wasn't good at the practical stuff. Right. And then you have this this moment not to jump around but this on the first half an hour when he finally meets Florence Pugh's character Tatlock. And he offhandedly mentions that

[00:57:38] he like had years in therapy. Right. Yes. That this Apple incident where he attempted to poison a teacher that no one could really totally make sense of. It was a malicious act. He said himself I admire the man greatly I don't know why I did it. You know.

[00:57:53] And that he's come out of therapy on the other side and he's now basically like Batman. Created this like character. Right. At this point he is like a guy who's developed a look a voice a style. Part of this thing is being like this great unknowable reputation

[00:58:10] precedes him. Here's this horned dog who chain smokes cigarettes and dresses like a cowboy. Ask the questions that everyone else is afraid to ask you know but it's like it's all it's all like Batman. It's like a suit of armor he's placed around him.

[00:58:24] It's a persona he's created to try to push his ideas into the world and that persona is basically like exploited by everyone around him. Everyone uses that to their own ends. You know he thinks he intimidates everyone else and he over the course of the movie realizes that

[00:58:42] like everyone else can see through the fundamental vulnerability of him and how that can be manipulated and how we can be used in the ways that benefits them. Alyssa Wilkinson wrote a really good review of this movie where I think she just kind of pinned it

[00:58:56] where she said like it's ultimately a movie about power and about like the fascination of who wields power and how do you get power right. And the whole like Oppenheimer versus Strauss double narrative is one guy who is in pursuit of power as means to an end.

[00:59:13] He just likes the idea of power. He likes the idea of building himself out of dirt and rising to the top of American politics. Sure. To what end. Who fucking knows. He doesn't seem to have anything he really cares about or wants to accomplish. OK go on. Right.

[00:59:28] He go on finish your point and then I can. Oppenheimer is a guy who has this amazing ability and is like all about like understanding right. How do we like create a greater understanding of our world the greater control of our universe our power you know exploration like

[00:59:45] expansion all this sort of stuff. But in order to do that he needs to accumulate power. He needs to have the power to actually be given the opportunity the resources you know granted the ears to get those things done. And in order to do that you either

[01:00:00] need to start making concessions in your own life in order to accrue that power personally at some sacrifice to humanity usually or you get in bed with people who wield that power and could throw it over you and then you give them some control over your life.

[01:00:15] Sure sure. I mean OK OK. A lot to think about. That's my main read. OK well Louis Strauss is like he is a figure of small C American conservatism like which dominated American culture after the war. And like he was his his mentor was

[01:00:33] Herbert Hoover who is the king of small C conservatism. And like you know just the idea of like less government. Business is best. This is a thriving nation we want to encourage that by you know you know not you know anti Rooseveltian sort

[01:00:49] of you know anti New Deal. Right. And that is the culture that enveloped to me like Oppenheimer's creations and whatever you know the war post war society because so much of what happened with nuclear weapons is preventable in Oppenheimer's head. I think whether or not it's true like

[01:01:10] you know like he's like we didn't have to do this like right. And obviously he feels guilt or responsibility or whatever for creating the thing but he's also like I didn't you know I didn't know you were going to make a million of

[01:01:21] them like and maybe I should have. And I feel like Nolan is like seeing Strauss is like this is the perfect representation of the type of paranoid egotistical sort of country first thinking that led us down the road of like well we got to

[01:01:36] make more we got to make the bigger one we got to be ahead always right. Like I don't know I mean Strauss had like he's like he's you know he made himself out of nothing so he saw himself as like an American ideal in

[01:01:47] that way like here I am Jewish kid born in poverty like you know I you know here and here I am on top of the world like that's that's what we need this country to be. But then it's what's your skill set being on top of the world.

[01:02:00] Yeah. So choose is good at it. I guess I don't know business business. The thing that I latched on to thematically was the difference between theory and practice. Sure. Which Oppenheimer is a theory theory he's all theory guy. And what happens when someone who is

[01:02:19] an ideas person or a creative gets put in a position where they have to make something. Well not only that he's handed tremendous power to do that. He's handed tremendous power like you're saying and like and freedom. Yeah because we need you right now

[01:02:37] like and you're the guy who knows how to do this so you want to build a city in your favorite place on earth which is what New Mexico was to him. Right. Fine unlimited money. You want all your friends to come here. Great.

[01:02:50] You guys all want to get together and fucking bandy about ideas. Cool. And then they're like we think we made a bomb. The military is like great put it in a box. See you later. We'll call you. Right. And they're like what are you going

[01:03:01] to do with it. And they're like we're not having a conversation anymore. Like you did what you were supposed to do. Right. The most devastating moment in the movie is those bombs getting wheeled off and you're like wait a second. Is that it.

[01:03:11] Like that's clearly what they're all like oh shit. OK. What are you going to do. Should we. You know it's amazing. It's amazing stuff. Like but I don't I don't think for a second that Nolan is putting himself on the same plane of importance as Robert Oppenheimer.

[01:03:26] Now I was like the most important person ever lived. Right. Yes. He's like at the focus of this moment. I think the thing he's relating to on a micro micro level is that within his tiny little sphere of just the world of film culture. Yeah right.

[01:03:40] Which is not incredibly important in the grand scheme of humanity. Most important thing in the world. To us in this room. To everyone everywhere. Right. The most important thing. The most important fucking thing in the world. But that he has become a guy where

[01:03:54] the entire industry kind of hangs on his every word and he understands that any interview he gives any choice he makes using this is how he relates. Sort of right. It does move the winds of the industry. Right. I mean my read on that is he he made

[01:04:08] something that then contributed to the death of the Dark Knight of well well the Dark Knight Rises literally the Dark Knight Rises the death of 12 people. Oh no I take it differently. He made the Dark Knight and it contributed to the death of Sid. Oh yeah.

[01:04:24] But I know it's all of this. People actually died. I think he has had I think he has several examples of movies in his career that like fundamentally shifted the culture in one way or another. Right. So you have like the mass shooting at the Dark Knight Rises.

[01:04:40] You have the Dark Knight being the movie that Hollywood's going to break itself trying to chase and replicate. Right. And then you have Tenet which is him being like I wield the power. Everyone listens to me. What I choose to do with this moment and this movie.

[01:04:52] I'll save cinema right now. Yeah. Right. I can do it. Right. And it didn't work. Did it have catastrophic results. No but it didn't work. He misjudged that moment. He did. I mean if he especially if he was the one pushing and I think you know

[01:05:03] a lot of reporting said he was pushing like no we can do it this year we don't need to wait. So that's what I think Nolan could very clearly outline to you what he was thinking at every moment. And I think they're pretty moral decisions reasoned decisions and

[01:05:14] all of the steps of his career versus guy like Oppenheimer where I think he himself struggles with why he was doing anything at any moment. But I think that's the thing he's relating to is a guy who suddenly put that position where you know is

[01:05:26] Louis Strauss that different than a studio head. Right. The people like Matt Damon who are saying here you go we'll give you six billion dollars and we'll build a town and you assemble your own crew. Is that not unlike you know saying here's your budget.

[01:05:40] Go put together your cast put together your whatever in a certain moment we're going to put everything you gave us in a crate and we're going to sell it. And if it doesn't work to serve our needs you're fucking out in the road.

[01:05:54] You know we kick you to the dirt. Now isn't it though that as someone who's obsessed with like stars exploding that if you actually want to not just theorize but make the thing that you don't have a lot of options. Right. I mean it almost would probably come

[01:06:15] down to exclusively working with the U.S. military. They certainly. Yes there's not really other places I mean there are. But in terms of practical I can ask you guys a general question. Yeah. How do you feel about science. Love it. What do you mean.

[01:06:28] Well like what's your cool. Yeah. But like did you how what science are you into. So I'm bad at science. OK. I didn't get good grades. Yeah because I'm not smart in that way or I didn't apply myself in that way. I'm bad at math. Me too.

[01:06:44] I was particularly bad at physics which is very mathy. I never took physics. I was better at chemistry and although but I but I never did. You know I did high school science. Right. My dad loved science and he would read countless books nonfiction books he

[01:06:59] read all fucking me you know he was obsessed with science so a lot of my like interest mostly like space like that's where my science interests I feel like manifests mainly. Ben are you a science guy. Big. I wasn't good at it in school but I've

[01:07:13] always loved science. You sent a pretty radical text yesterday Ben. Well OK. Yeah I I mean I was joking some way. What was your text. I basically just said like I was very surprised to walk away from this movie so thrilled and felt like wow science

[01:07:33] is cool but there's something about this particular time that I think is really just fascinating. It's like so new all of this just the discovery of a black hole like that's so fucking cool. Pretty cool. Come on. I agree. I piece of paper write down an equation

[01:07:51] to be like well that's where you know that's where I'm lost but I'm glad I do it. I mean I thought that the movie did a good job of not making me feel completely lost by all of the science talk. I think he mostly skims through that

[01:08:07] which I'll say honestly the book American Prometheus does to the book is not really about science right. It's more about this man and his youth you know as an anxious student and then his young manhood as a sort of quasi communist or fellow traveler

[01:08:24] like who he knew and the whole sort of Berkeley scene of scientists and all that. And then the Manhattan Project and then you know the aftermath of like celebrity scientists and then you know being dragged in the public square and so on you know.

[01:08:40] And also just that he constantly was important. If I can just read Ben's text verbatim it was I'm very surprised to report that I think being a scientist was cool at one time. So not now. I don't know about now. OK.

[01:08:56] And then they might be up to some cool stuff and then be up to some cool stuff for sure. I'm sure people are. His follow up text was and being a doll is a weird job. Well that was a re Barbie re Barbie. Yeah.

[01:09:07] You know like Ben you know if you went to like a science class and you were like oh I'm going to do this and that and then you're like oh I'm going to do like Ben you know if you went to like CERN would that be cool.

[01:09:15] You know over in Switzerland. What I don't even know what that is. It's the Center for Nuclear Research particle. It's where they have particle accelerators like mile long tunnels that they like shoot at each other. They did that sort of thing recently that I feel like unfortunately the

[01:09:31] owner of X was involved with in some way. Do you know what I'm talking about. That thing where he rebranded Twitter as X and it's cool and we all like it and we're going to make it a bank. Mm hmm. Do you know I'm talking about though

[01:09:42] it was like some sort of new form of centrifuge in some way. It's the Large Hadron Collider I believe is what you're talking about probably. Yes. And they found they're trying to find quote unquote the God particle. Yeah. Yeah. I think Mr. Musk probably cares about that.

[01:09:59] I don't care about him though. So I think he's an uncool scientist. I mean it is very cool to think of like people in the 1920s like Albert Einstein writing down like the way gravity works if you extrapolate it suggests that the thing in the center

[01:10:15] of our galaxy is a big black hole that's so heavy nothing can escape from it. I just figured this out through math and then like a hundred years later we're like we can see the black hole. Yeah. He was right. He was right.

[01:10:27] He wrote that down on a piece of paper but he was totally right. That's cool. Yeah. It's just hard as a kid to be like what are you talking about. Like the equations knew that you know it's hard to represent and this movie

[01:10:40] does do a good job representing but the theory in that way of like if you want to make a big shiny movie at a certain level you need to get in bed with these companies that we're increasingly finding are pretty fucking Griff is dragging it back evil movie.

[01:10:57] No no no. Because I think this is what to Ben's point it's like if you want to make those breakthroughs if you want to come to some greater understanding of the universe we live in and what is possible and how to harness it you're

[01:11:09] probably going to have to do it for the military and turn it into a weapon or you're probably going to have to do it for Mr. X you know who's doing it for whatever ends it's like it's these central questions of like you know and

[01:11:22] so it's a lot of the you know on a much smaller scale the wind rises thing right. Sure. Yeah. This is very this this has a bit of a wind rises vibe right. Like for how are you going to get your money to make your thing.

[01:11:36] How are you going to get your support to make your thing. And if you are letting someone else give you that then what are you giving them in return and what are you sacrificing and what are you handing off what control are you losing.

[01:11:48] There's a difference between this and the wind rises as there is a difference between Oppenheimer and the protagonist the wind rise. It was sort of quasi fictional cause there we go. But in the wind rises he's truly like I just wanted to make something beautiful right.

[01:11:59] You know like where is this like Oppenheimer knew what he's doing. Absolutely. He hears about people splitting atoms and he's like that could be used to make He also hears about what's happening to the Jews in Europe. Yeah absolutely. And but I mean and no one has

[01:12:11] acknowledged this because no one's been hitting this kind of like he's the most important person who ever lived right. No one's acknowledged like look if Oppenheimer didn't exist someone else would have thought to make an atom. It's not like he had that line in the

[01:12:21] movie that's like what are you thinking Oh what every other scientist is thinking right now. Everyone had the same concept of yes you can create this gigantic energy reaction. Because not only does he find out about splitting the atom and go oh you could

[01:12:32] use this to make a bomb. His first thought is they are going to use this to make a bomb. So when you're right it's all from this defensive posture of like now we know what's possible. Someone's going to do the one. Well it's fascinating that Einstein and

[01:12:44] one other scientist wrote that letter. Right. So it's the you're referring to the Einstein I believe sizzle sizzle art is the other Leo sizzle art the other scientist. But yes they were both like we just were in Germany not too long ago.

[01:13:00] We know who's over there and we're worried that they will develop atom bombs. We need to do a nuclear program. When you read American Prometheus you keep waiting for and then they all sat down and were like but you know what would the consequences be of us making

[01:13:19] this thing. And they don't really until afterwards. Yeah I think it's because there's like I guess they were in there really we have to beat the Nazis and they were invigorated by this. We're creating we're discovering and also people at that time just dump stuff into the river.

[01:13:33] And they don't really think about it. People did be dumping stuff. No no no but I just like you're wondering like when will they grapple with this and you're sort of realizing as you're reading it like no they had no time or whatever they were just

[01:13:44] pushing it off. They weren't. And of course they're also thinking about it more as like against the Nazis like OK we'll be blowing up a Nazi fucking military base. They're all theoretical physicists. They're all scientists. They're not in the military. The theoretical is the big thing.

[01:14:01] Where it's in their heads. They don't know what it actually means. Where does this go. Right. Right. Harten it be practical. I just kept thinking throughout this movie about that exit interview the guy did who was what the head of AI for Google and stepped down and wrote

[01:14:17] this letter that was like we should all stop exploring this. And he basically said I got hired onto this job and I thought yeah AI is probably the thing that will lead to our downfall in 80 years. And then through working on this for

[01:14:30] five years I realized oh maybe it's more like 10. And you're like well that's the whole thing right there that he was exploring a field that he thought would probably be destructive ultimately. But the destruction for him was much further off and much more abstract

[01:14:45] in the process of working on it only too late possibly did he then recognize oh this feels immediate. I have pushed something along to a point I no longer feel comfortable with. And now toothpaste out of the tube can't put it back in.

[01:14:58] I can write a letter and tell people to stop but they're not going to. Well what a lot of people want to happen with AI is what Oppenheimer wanted to happen with nuclear weapons where he's basically like we have to hand this over to an international

[01:15:08] yeah right you know multi-country committee that's in charge of stuff that will stop stuff from going wrong. Right. And that may well happen with AI or may not you know. But like you know that was his sort of plea post-war is like let the

[01:15:21] United Nations take charge of this like yeah. Let me know nuclear power can be used for good. Bob you know no one listened to him or whatever people listen to him. But you know that's why obviously he was railroaded and eventually railroad and that's why Clint Eastwood actually

[01:15:34] directed this movie. But it's got both. Yeah. This is a great great take Griffin had to Marie and Marie's David. My better David. Yes. No he's a good David. I mean he's my favorite David. But yeah. I'm better than Ehrlich. I keep fucking drive buying or like I

[01:15:53] know it's been a rough couple of weeks for him on this podcast. Sorry I love you. We love David. I play the Becker theme song for two seconds. No. Yes. Come on. No. I refuse to make a sentence score very inspired by the record theme. Absolutely wrong. Yes.

[01:16:10] What was your take your Clint Clint related dance and would have fit perfectly into this movie. He would have. He would of course put him right where Modena is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It could have been a classic green water part. Did it backer wear a bow tie.

[01:16:22] He's he. No. Good place. Guy. Yeah. He wears a bow tie later in good place. I never wears a Becker's fucking on button. I don't think I've been fucking brought it. Yeah you did. Fuck you. What I was going to say I was saying to

[01:16:38] Marie's David on the escalator down he is pulled off the rare double late period Eastwood narrative which David we always joke on this podcast. Yes there's two kinds of use of narratives. This guy was railroaded or I'm guilty send me to jail. Yeah personally. Right.

[01:16:53] And this is a movie about a guy getting railroaded and when you go into his mind he's like I'm guilty. Send me. Right. So basically 100 percent they did him wrong but also he's like I'm fucking garbage and I'll never get it just to

[01:17:04] get to the last thing in the movie. Yeah. Just to say it right now. You know there's this big moment in the movie where Jason Clark is basically like lambasting him and almost everything in the scenes with Jason Clark. I would need the hearing. Yeah.

[01:17:17] That's just what you're with. The dialogue is just the actual words that were said. Sure. It's right from the record. All of it. I just. Yeah. Including the kiddie disses about his grammar. Oh yeah. She fucking throws down. She does absolutely.

[01:17:29] I don't like your phrase but I can just quickly ask you because you read the book. There was one plot hole I did not. David David. David Simms read American Prometheus. I did. There was one plot hole I could not get my head around.

[01:17:42] At what moment in time did Oppenheimer fuck Jason Clark's wife. No. Jason Clark is there. I know he fucks a lot of women who are married. Obviously Jason Clark plays a lot of cucks. And Jason Clark hates him and he plays a lot of cucks.

[01:17:52] I was waiting for the connective tissue. He witnesses a cucking metaphorically. It just felt like it was personal for Clark where there must have been. I just think it's like Clark is like am I going to play a cuck and Nolan's like damn it.

[01:18:03] I wanted to write down cuck on a piece of paper and seal it in a envelope. Should have done that. Damn it. So but like you know like Nolan probably approaches Jason Clark. Yeah. Would you like to be in my film. Here's the script.

[01:18:14] And Clark's flipping through and he's like where who's who cucks me. I don't understand. Nolan's like um well I don't know. You know come on come on. I always get cucked in the movie. You know my wife cheats on me. Come on.

[01:18:26] And Nolan's like no you're there to to investigate a cucking. You know like it's you'll be methodically really going step by step. What world of cucking? A famous cuckage. Several actually. Yeah. I forget. Did you guys do this Nolan voice on the Nolan series? No. This is new.

[01:18:44] I think this is new. I've been watching a lot of him recently. Your character is a low T beta male. He does not get cucked on camera. He is a bit of a soy boy. What the hell was I talking about? I completely lost my train of thought.

[01:19:02] The Chad Oppenheimer. No you wanted to talk about the last bit of the movie. Oh you know Clark is reaming him out for essentially like don't why why didn't you say anything then. If you're so fucking guilty now. Yes. If you're you know like then why didn't

[01:19:15] you see it. And it's this moment where Oppenheimer doesn't he has his answer but he doesn't really have an answer. And you know Nolan starts to do the thing he does several times in the movie where you can hear like you know noises in his

[01:19:26] head of the bombing and all that. This is very powerful. Wall to wall music other than five moments where it goes blank. He builds it up to such a fever pitch that when he pulls it out it really shocks you. And that's the one that's one of the

[01:19:39] moments for us. But and then later Kitty you know says speaks aloud as like did you you know submit yourself to that because you wanted you know yeah someone to call you out essentially. And I you know it's American Prometheus. Nolan opens the title with a title card

[01:19:55] and opens the film with a title card explaining the myth of Prometheus. Like this is his Promethean torture. Yes. He is like you know he's putting himself through this is Nolan's take right. You know as a form of torture because he you know he feels he deserves it.

[01:20:08] Yeah. And Kitty basically says to him later like this isn't going to accomplish. Right. And it's like that's to him it's like I know I just need to suffer. Like I've decided I need to suffer and this is the only way I know how.

[01:20:20] Now that's a metaphorical take that no one has. Right. One of the scenes I keep going back to. Prometheus you know was chained to a rock and a bird would tear out his liver every day because he gave fire to humans which you know Oppenheimer gave us fire.

[01:20:34] Yes. Yes. It's kind of an important thing. Fire. Fire. Very useful. Yeah but also pretty quickly turned into a weapon. No what do you mean? You make s'mores with it? That's what Prometheus is saying. This is for s'more making only. That's what Oppenheimer did too.

[01:20:49] So we've created the bomb but please only put s'mores. The idea is to make so many s'mores at once you could feed the world. The world's largest campfire. It's hard not. I'm trying to figure out what differentiates the Oppenheimer impression from. What? From fucking Daniel Plainview.

[01:21:08] I have a what is he saying? I have a competition in me. What if Oppenheimer said that about the Nazis? Yeah. What I was going to say. What were you going to say? A scene I keep on going back to because there are a couple scenes in

[01:21:19] this movie where I'm like that's the whole movie right there. This is the whole central tension he's fighting with. That one is important. It's quite powerful. No the scene where Oppenheimer rides up on his horse in his long trench coat with his flat hat.

[01:21:33] He looks like a fucking cowboy. Right. He's created this like David's finger is going up which I think is a tiny bit inappropriate. He rides by in the rain but it's like it's like it looks like a fucking unforgiven shot or something. Right.

[01:21:47] And then he sees the flyer basically for like what is going to be the equivalent of a communist meeting amongst all the scientists. Within Los Alamos. Right. This thing. Project Y. This whole movie this guy's had this uncomfortable position of like he

[01:21:59] wants to be on the right side of history. Right. And it's such a confusing time where it's like what's the greater threat. Is it fascism? Is it communism? Is it neither? Is it both? He seems pretty concrete on the fact that fascism is bad.

[01:22:10] No I think he was a fairly left wing guy. It's just that he didn't have the super conviction in the way that when Hartnett's like you better stop this shit if you want to run the Manhattan Project. He's like great. Stopped. I'll stop. Totally. I'll stop.

[01:22:21] You know and I do think he did not not not in a intellectually dishonest way but I do think the early part of the movie he truly is like I'm asking questions. I agree that there's stuff that's not right. I'm trying to figure out what side

[01:22:34] I'm supposed to be on. He gave money to the right people. Totally. He was he was a good right. You know left. But the Spanish Civil War thing he was just it feels like he's like well these people are clearly suffering. They need my help.

[01:22:44] I'm not even getting invested in the larger part of this other than there are people I could give my money to who could use it right now. Right. And he's constantly like well but don't do too much. Don't be too loud. Might get in the way of your

[01:22:54] career. You got to pick and choose you know all this stuff. He's trying to apply strategy to all this shit right. He sees this sign. He's gotten punished before in his life for engaging in these conversations for going to these meetings these parties too much.

[01:23:07] He's basically just got out in time to still have a career. Right. So he sees this sign and he goes in there and you're like how is he going to play this. Right. Is this going to be like to a meeting. So don't you dare jeopardize.

[01:23:20] Is he going to be. Is he going to consider their points right because they're saying like for the first moment let's step back and question is this bad. If we let this happen right. And you watch him play and I sort of expected the scene to play out

[01:23:35] of him being like look this is my job now. I'm in charge of this. You guys are going to take it in. I need to just throw the spin that that it will take to convince them to settle them down. And he makes an argument that I

[01:23:47] think he genuinely largely believes. Yeah where he's like we need to do this once it will never happen again. Right. This thing that was often said about like that was his his line a lot of the time. Yes. Right. And I just like sort of true until

[01:24:02] it's not true. But he also was constantly reminding everyone that we're scientists we build it but we don't get to choose what the military makes whatever decision the military makes. He has this passive like you know maybe somewhat you know simplistic thing. Right. Hey we're just making an

[01:24:19] invention. This thing that comes up a lot in society where it's like look if I don't do X then someone not X now I can't use that fucking you can. He doesn't own a letter. If I don't do why someone else will do it.

[01:24:30] Elon Musk is bought by. If I don't do why someone else will do it they'll hire someone else to do it right. And maybe that person is less scruples than I do. Maybe it's better for me to get into that room and I can at least

[01:24:40] try direct a thing that's going to happen no matter what. Yeah. Into a slightly better direction but then like what's one of the most powerful scenes in the movie it's when he's in the room as he was while they're picking targets. Yeah. And James Reimer you know coming

[01:24:54] in and look he didn't he doesn't actually whip out his dick like he did on Sex and the City. God God bless him. Great moment for us. He sure does. Yes he does. It's a great moment in sex and the city.

[01:25:04] And this is not just on sex and city. What Richard. But he's you know he's. He's playing the I believe he's playing a secretary of defense. Yes. And he has that sort of chilling thing which apparently Reimer found out himself and took to

[01:25:19] Nolan right of like this guy actually honeymooned in Kyoto. He would not want so he wouldn't want to bomb it. Yeah. So he's like oh so let's cross Kyoto off the you know like in this way when you're like Jesus Christ. And Oppenheimer is basically just

[01:25:30] like a fucking you know ham sandwich in there. He basically says Jewish. He's a lonely man. But he says like a 12 option strike that make that 11. Yeah. And you don't know why he's striking one and you're just like I guess he's going to move on from it.

[01:25:44] And then he sort of pulls his glasses down and like cultural significance. My wife and I honeymoon there and everyone in the room laughs and both times. Yeah we've seen the movie. You hear the audience like suck in the breath and go like it's horrible. Yeah.

[01:25:59] You know it's hard. Yeah. And like yeah. And Oppenheimer is you know not applying any muscle in that room obviously. People are throwing out the question of like is it good to give a warning so that the civilians can leave. And they're like well if you

[01:26:13] warn them like that question is disregarded within the same way. Why don't we just blow this up in a you know non you know just to show how it works and so they'll know or whatever. So much of I think genuinely I

[01:26:25] look I don't think this movie is trying to exonerate Oppenheimer and I don't think he's innocent right. Right. He is a deeply conflicted investigating a complicated inconsequential figure in history. That is what the film is. Absolutely. But I think there is that part

[01:26:39] of him that at moments genuinely believes if the test goes well they won't ever have to do it right because they'll be so impressed by the force of this thing. Right. But he doesn't understand anything in his knowledge of diplomacy is obviously just so basic. Yeah.

[01:26:53] And he's kind of saying to Groves like can we tell the Soviets now. Yeah. You know can we tell. And he's like yeah sure. And they tell Ed Potsdam basically what happened was Truman said to Stalin like we've got like a really big bomb and

[01:27:07] Stalin was like well I hope you use it against the Japanese. And what we now know is that Stalin already knew as this is revealed in it you know like that Stalin was getting info from us. Yes. So we didn't have to tell him

[01:27:18] but I think Oppenheimer is clearly hoping like yeah we'll tell Stalin and everyone will be like oh OK great. Back off. Let's not use those. Right. Let's just talk about it. Right. But when Oppenheimer is in a room like that his whole fucking like

[01:27:29] kind of play acting what do they call it the great salesman of science. Right. This persona he's built completely crumbles in a room with guys who wield actual power not the power of intellect of actual decision making of knowledge that the ultimate superpower of guys like this are

[01:27:46] they're incredible strategic thinkers and they don't give a fuck right. They are just so confident in everything they say at every moment they are not internally conflicted in the same way that James Riemer is just like I'm very I am happy to within the

[01:28:00] next two minutes pick which place we are going to decimate. This is a decision we can make quickly before lunch. By the way I'm removing the one place that means a little something to me. You know it's all just like look let's just get this done with

[01:28:14] it's devastating devastating shit. Can we talk about some of the other actors in the movie. Yes. We have not yet mentioned who we know. David Crum holds. Oh Chrome and sort of the closest thing the movie has to like a conscience character should eat something here. Oh yeah.

[01:28:35] Thanks Ben for giving us a sort of walking bubby. Yeah. Ben had a list of bits he thought of doing for this episode and wisely said we shouldn't do one was wearing goggles the whole episode like Benny safty. One was every 30 minutes taking out a handkerchief and giving

[01:28:50] you an orange slice. That was a bit. That actually sounds like something that should happen on every episode. David you see some eat something David. The whole thing about he plays Isidore Robbie. Yeah. That guy fucking invented the microwave. That's the funniest thing about

[01:29:04] like a lot of these. You'd like click on me like so who was this guy. Like invented the fucking micro you like the microwave. Yeah. That's that guy. Yeah. So speaking of the real MRI human the real people hate them and this movie also you know but

[01:29:16] it means he invented the best set piece in Insidious 5. Carry on. Go Jesus. Set inside an MRI really cool on the ring. Cool. To prepare for Oppenheimer I watched the day after Trinity which is available on Criterion Channel. If you have not seen it you

[01:29:33] should check it out. It's really interesting. They have interviews with I Robbie and they also have interviews with. Oh my God what's his name. Michael Angarano Robert Serber and I it's funny because Angarano is doing a voice. And you and I walking out the

[01:29:52] first time we're like I guess he doesn't admit that Angarano is one of the few. I did not totally clock him in this movie. I'll watch for him next time. OK. Well he's he's the one who like talks with a lisp. He like sounds like. Yes. Right.

[01:30:07] But that's literally how the guy sounds right. Marie you were like I guess you just came up with like a thing so that he'd stand out from the other guys and then you watch this movie and you're like oh no. Griffin that voice is 100 percent accurate.

[01:30:18] Yeah it was wild. Who else. Who else. Oh who do we need. I'll still need. We haven't really talked about what we're talking about. Yeah this movie has a large cast. So it I saw Oppenheimer before my fiance David did and he's a big Oppenheimer guy.

[01:30:36] He too like David Sims has read American Prometheus and has a framed photo of J. Robert Oppenheimer in his office which is interesting. He sees him as a tragic hero. But it was so hard for me to keep from him for five days that

[01:30:57] I am become death destroyer of world. Is red to boobs. Is red to boobs. Is red to Florence Pugh as she is mounting him and putting his penis inside of her. That is a crazy way to read Sanskrit. I mean I guess.

[01:31:13] Well but like it's kind of hot. This guy's attitude towards sex does seem so wrapped up in like death and gloom. Yes. Like and like especially in the book you really get the sense of this guy of like I mean it's why you can you can picture Nolan

[01:31:28] picking this book up and it's like Oppenheimer reedy blue piercing eyes. Yeah. Strange aloof energy. Yeah. Kind of weird equally hot and terrifying. And Nolan just going like what's Killian's number. You know like this guy just screams kill you. Roller through his flip phone one

[01:31:45] button click at a time until he gets down to really talk about killing and yet we'll talk about we'll talk about. But you know like I think like as much as this guy was a Randy boy who was who is sleeping with lots of people and often

[01:32:00] sleeping with married women. Yeah. Of his for his friends wives and things like that. Like it feels like there's this kind of like dark compulsion to it. And Jean Tatlock who really could have a whole goddamn movie written about herself because she's so fascinating is like the

[01:32:15] most sort of destructive you know and in intense figure in his romantic life. Yes. And her death was so powerful for him and mysterious in its own right. So speaking of her death. Yes. So did you Florence P plays a character in the film.

[01:32:31] She's really in like four scenes. Yeah I would say she gets short shrift in a way but like the film is also so packed a lot. You really know how it's supposed to balance everything. She makes an impression. So I only really caught this the second time. Yeah.

[01:32:47] I saw it humble brag the rubber glove the rubber gloves. Yeah man. Oh yeah. It's to me very reminiscent. So this film is very reminiscent of Memento to me in many ways. Yeah. But the flashbacks in Memento the frenzied kind of violence where you don't really know what's

[01:33:01] going on very similar to her death where which he didn't witness and was reported as suicide. Then you see a flash of a glove at one point because maybe she was murdered by the government. You don't know. Yeah. She was a communist with ties to

[01:33:14] Oppenheimer who is like you know seen as like a very unstable figure. I also think this movie is very similar to Memento thematically in it being about a guy who doesn't really know who he is and doesn't really have a comfortable grasp on reality.

[01:33:28] I also look I mean when Memento came out and Christopher Nolan was just a cute nobody who'd made a little movie at Sundance he was the main word. He's fucking cute. I think he's still cute. So cute but he looks good. You watch those interviews with

[01:33:40] him around Memento time and you're like a dashing young man you know and he's and he talks about like how he presents the film and the color segments in Memento are subjective. Yep. They're from the perspective of Leonard. Yes. And they you're entirely inside

[01:33:57] his head which is what the color segments of Oppenheimer are. You're with Oppenheimer. Right. Right. Yes. You're perceiving it as Oppenheimer perceives it. Yes. And then the black and white in Memento is objective. Right. And there's a narrator you know and you know it's more like

[01:34:14] sort of traditional filmy noir. It's the Tobolowsky Thomas Lyons stuff. No no no. Well there's that but no no there's there's two you know how Memento flows where it bounces between you know and in the black and white segments it's like Leonard being like in

[01:34:26] voiceover like you wake up in a room you don't know who you are here are the rules of how I work right. And the color sequences you're in Leonard's head. Yeah. Oppenheimer has the same gimmick the black and white stuff like right Strauss that's not from

[01:34:38] Strauss's perspective like we're much more like a classic documentary type perspective. I think it is from Strauss's perspective. No because like Strauss is an unknowable figure at first and you're watching the movie and you're like yeah you know this guy is sort of like yeah I don't

[01:34:53] know what happened. Like I don't know who like wrote them on the bus. No but that's my take is you know you think you're watching objective and then you find out in fact it is subjective it's just a different person subject. No no by subjective you're not

[01:35:05] in Strauss's head. You're watching someone watch Strauss you're watching people investigate Strauss and we're understanding him. Yeah. Yes. I mean he has also I'm just repeating Nolan. I know I know. I just felt like the way he was framing it was maybe to try to

[01:35:18] obscure the sort of narrative twist of the film. What the Strauss was a bad dude. That you're seeing a very weighted account of events based on this guy trying to manipulate history to his advantage. Sure but like like the sort of this like.

[01:35:39] Well whatever we don't need to like nitpick about this but like the Strauss stuff is peppered into the film pretty early right where we're cut into it. He's basically pretty much right away. He sets up like four different narratives from the beginning which is the Strauss hearing the

[01:35:52] Oppenheimer hearing the sort of Oppenheimer's like life. Yes. More straightforward. Like what's the fourth. Is it just. Yeah I guess you're sort of for connections to Einstein. I think that's a really important element too. That's yeah. I'd say for the first chunk of it especially you're sort of

[01:36:08] engaging with Oppenheimer in a couple different time periods at once. Yeah it's kind of between you know pre-war and post-war. Right. But there's there's basically three main things. But then there's these black and white things which is like Strauss. Alden Ehrenreich. Who's the other guy.

[01:36:24] Scott Grimes in there maybe. Is that who it is? I don't think Scott's the other guy. No. Scott Grimes is in this film. I just don't know who he played. There's another guy in there. Yes. Where they're like prepping for his Strauss's secretary of commerce hearing.

[01:36:36] Yes I think you're right. I think it is. And you know he's getting a little anxious of like are they going to bring up this Oppenheimer stuff. And so and they're sort of talking through like what happened there. Right. And so the first part of these

[01:36:50] segments are more expositional. It's more Strauss just kind of being like well you know blah blah blah blah blah. Like this is kind of off the record him just explaining what we think in good faith his interpretation of the events were.

[01:37:04] And as it goes on you know this is the thing that's not in the book. This is not an American Prometheus at all. Like the American Prometheus mentions yes Strauss did eventually. He talks about Strauss a lot. Yeah. And that he eventually got shot

[01:37:16] down you know by the Senate later as revenge basically for him fucking over Oppenheimer. But this is all imagined. Yes stuff that's in the Senate hearing is real but this behind the scenes stuff is sort of like trying to give you an idea of Strauss I think.

[01:37:33] Like we said his personality. And the framing of him as Oppenheimer's sort of shadow is not a thing that the book is really foreground. The book is certainly you know like Oppenheimer really pissed that guy off. Yeah. Because Oppenheimer was this arrogant super charming in a

[01:37:53] way you know science celebrity charismatic. He's certainly compelling and Strauss was this dilettante. He's not a scientist but he was in charge of the Atomic Energy Commission and kind of like playfully like slap him down in private and in public. Right. And it like builds this

[01:38:07] resentment but it's on one side. Oppenheimer is just like I don't know what you know where Strauss is like that fucking guy. Right. Won't stop needling me won't stop thinking he's smarter than me. And it's such a great performance by Downey when he finally like

[01:38:20] unravels at the end and like seething monologue. It was I was telling Griffin it was fun seeing Oppenheimer so soon after rewatching Old Boy because like the reveal of the like revenge plot that is all in one guy's head that the other guy doesn't know.

[01:38:39] I don't even think about it. Right. Right. And the cleverness of that Einstein where he's like what do you fucking tell Einstein. Yeah. Poison him against me. They don't care about Aaron reckoning all that moment to them. He does a great job by Alden. Right.

[01:38:53] Have you ever considered that maybe they were talking about something more important that day and they were literally talking about the fact that the atomic bomb might have blew up the world. Right. Which is what's so I mean I was about to say funny but what I

[01:39:05] think is so interesting is you see that event three times right you basically perceive from a distance from from Strauss is distance Oppenheimer and Einstein having this very quick conversation that Einstein walks away from looking completely despondent. Right. Einstein looks like a world away. Right.

[01:39:22] And Strauss screws on this as Oppenheimer said something to turn Einstein against me because when I walked over and he was walking away he refused to acknowledge me. He gave me the he must have been shit talking right. And my read on it was like I bet

[01:39:36] you're going to find out that Oppenheimer said something that was dismissive to Einstein. He pissed off Einstein. He was disrespectful to Einstein on a personal level. He dunks on him a couple of times. He does. Right. So I was like that's what you're

[01:39:47] going to find out is he says something really cutting to Einstein and says no he says the most cutting thing imaginable about himself and the world. Maybe fucked up the world and humanity beyond. And also Einstein says something completely devastating. He says it as a definite statement. Yes.

[01:40:04] That that all of the you know you can be as much of a masochist as you want and people will forgive you and they'll give you a plaque but it won't be free. It won't be for you it'll be for them. Absolutely. And that's so good.

[01:40:15] And also also it's like he is equally uncomfortable with both outcomes. He hates being vilified and he hates being honored. Right. Right. This guy is ruined. He is ruined understandably because he did a fucking thing right. I mean he can't shoulder himself no like you know. Yeah.

[01:40:30] Nor should he. But it's like he's in both scenarios. He looks as unhappy when he's in the fucking White House being handed that giant trophy. Johnson gave him the Fermi price yeah. Right. He looks miserable then as he does. I mean it's it's what might be

[01:40:45] the big scene in the movie is his speech he gives after. Right. It's such a power after the test. Yeah. I mean there's a lot of big scenes in this movie but the first two hours are this race right where the movie never lets

[01:40:57] up and it's almost like a heist movie of like can they pull this off. Yeah. Let's get the team together. Matt Damon on the train. And like you know I think it's crucial that the movie is moving so fast because you need the

[01:41:07] sense of like no one is slowing down to think about what they're doing. Bill Guth basically put it as like it's the movie is basically like a three hour montage right. And then like once every 40 minutes it grinds to a halt in a

[01:41:19] way that gives you whiplash and then it starts up again and builds up steam the same way. And then there's the test itself which you know we can talk about more but like is a very arresting sequence. And then right after the test

[01:41:31] like you say he gives this speech which is a real speech he gave to the assembled people of Los Alamos who are cheering after they even the stuff about like if only we had done it. No one's cheering but then the Japanese didn't like it.

[01:41:45] But the sound cuts out so all you can hear basically are you don't hear their cheering. Yeah. You hear their chair squeaking you hear when they stand up. I was losing my mind. Yes. During the scene I was truly it really you know had a big effect.

[01:42:01] And when you cut to the Oppenheimer close ups the world is like vibrating around him like the early scenes where he kind of can't process what he's able to see on a scientific level. Right. And it's this thing of like when he's trying to be solemn he feels

[01:42:14] uncomfortable when he's trying to like affect this sort of like we did it. Ra Ra kind of like sensationalism in the speech. Right. He feels uncomfortable. He's scanning over the crowd. He feels equally haunted by the people who are crying. The people who are laughing.

[01:42:31] There were teenagers basically under the bleachers making out as if it was like after a fucking high school football game. We see a woman's skin. Well that's in his face. In his head he's imagining for the first time what it must have

[01:42:43] felt like on the ground but like what he's literally seeing is cheering screaming laughing crying making out vomiting and all of it is. And you know the the stomping stomping. You know the noise of that. Basically all you're hearing are their feet right.

[01:43:01] You hear when they stand up you hear when they stomp you hear when they like shift around in their chairs and that's the only sound effect he's here. Am I wrong that we also kind of hear sounds of war and people screaming. You're hearing such an onslaught.

[01:43:12] Because obviously we don't see the bombing of Hiroshima or Nagasaki in this film. We don't see you know footage because he wouldn't have seen footage. He hears about it on the radio. Right. There's one sequence which is how he would have heard about. Yeah. There's one sequence where

[01:43:26] there's like a slideshow. Yeah. It's on Hirano's character. And Hirano's character goes to Nagasaki in Hiroshima and. Takes pictures. Takes pictures. Talks to the victims of the bomb and brings back evidence. An anthropological study. Like almost dispassionately. But like you can see that Oppenheimer can't even look at

[01:43:44] it. Yeah. You know he's struggling to even look at the photos are really good. They're insane obviously. It's a completely insane thing that. And you know people argue is this movie insensitive by not actually showing us these things by putting it so much in the

[01:43:58] headspace of this one man. Right. To not actually grapple with how terrifying the reality of this imagery was doesn't really make the full weight of the consequence land in people's minds. I think these are photos that exist out there have existed for many many decades.

[01:44:11] These are stories that have been covered in many different mediums. The consequences felt in this film. Yes. But I think beyond that. Him not engaging with it is important. I agree. Like I agree. That's a point the movie is making. I think that's huge.

[01:44:26] But also Marie you asked me immediately afterwards you said what do you think about that decision to not show it right. Right. And I said I think you're really in a double edged sword situation if you're Nolan. Right. Aside from the fact that just

[01:44:37] narratively for the story he's telling yes that guy doesn't even want to look at it because he can imagine it right. So he doesn't want to look into the eye of what he created. There's also like the Trinity test is this moment. It's terrifying but it's also a

[01:44:51] moment of real spectacle. Yes. It's exciting. Yes. You know you're tense and nervous and you know it's incredible moment. Yeah. It would be like spectacle. I can't you know to depict that you know like and I think it would be like kind of queasy spectacle.

[01:45:06] That was my entire take to Marie as I'm like he's got two choices. One is to replicate it in some way which then gets kind of gross where it's like you are kind of giving people eye candy because you're like wow look at

[01:45:17] the makeup look at the effects even if it's too hard to shock and horrify. It still becomes movie magic right. Or you do what some films do which is like you reuse real footage or real imagery which feels very exploitative to me.

[01:45:32] Well but and again I just feel like he's like we're with this guy. Yeah. This guy wouldn't have seen anything on TV because that just wasn't the thing in 1940. I just think there's no way to show it on screen that isn't actually insensitive to the actual victims.

[01:45:44] Well the one girl that we see Oppenheimer imagine right. Her sort of skin flaking. That's Nolan's daughter. Yes. That's crazy. Right. Well look another comparison to Park Chenoweth you know our current guy. I made this movie for my daughter and I'm like you made

[01:46:01] this movie for your daughter. You sick asshole. Yeah. I mean a full crazy person. I think there's something to like Nolan is filming the destruction of the person who means as much to him as anyone in his 100 percent like that the emotional consequence of it right.

[01:46:14] The movie doesn't give you that context but there's some massive feeling that comes across in like a yes. I'm a cellular level. I mean it's. Barbie does a similar thing to very opposite effect where at the end of that movie without spoiling things for people

[01:46:27] there's a montage of like home video footage and Greta Gerwig talked about that that's all home video footage from people who worked on the movie like the crew and the cast. Yeah totally. And she said I think there are things you can put in a film

[01:46:38] that even if they're not expressed overtly you can feel it in the sort of DNA that this is personal right. And this comes from someplace honest and whatever. And I think he's doing the same thing which is like I'm going to film this differently if it's my

[01:46:51] own daughter you know because this is as good as it could be to anyone. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. No I think you're right. But that's right. But then again maybe he actually thinks Oppenheimer is good and that the bombs were good. He liked the bomb.

[01:47:06] No you have basically from that scene on the speech this recurring visual motif of like the blinding light on everything going white. Yes. Because the moment of the test where there's the flash and no noise and you hear the noise later which is how it would have been.

[01:47:21] Yeah. It's so like spellbinding as well. This is a very analog movie. Nolan you know I think abhors having any digital process on his film. He thinks it looks fake. Right. And he has had films before that have a hybrid even when he shoots on film.

[01:47:35] If you're incorporating digital effects then at some point you have to put in a digital editing system. You have to color correct digitally whatever. This was a movie he never wanted going onto computers right. Just everything done photochemically. He even talks about he's like anti-wigs.

[01:47:48] He like wants as little fakery as possible. Yes. I think you're right. Yeah. But there are certain effects in this movie that I think are so impactful and they're very simple. He's not like trying to overthink them. Right. But just like in the way of just

[01:48:01] like you know what just flashing a really bright light on Kelly Murphy's face is going to speak volumes. And I think the thing they do at several moments in the movie where he basically cuts himself into imagining him in this scene that someone else is

[01:48:16] describing to him when David Dastmanshian comes up to him and talks about being in a fighter fighter pilot. In a plane and watching a V2 rocket go over. Right. That moment is so shocking though. When he's suddenly sitting in the cockpit with him. All those little moments.

[01:48:30] Like when Florence Pugh is sitting on him. Correct. In the hearing. A thing that people have dinged as being goofy. No. What? I think that's like a devastating moment. That's an incredible moment. And it's also just like for Nolan to like do that is so unusual.

[01:48:45] Like he doesn't break form like that really. No. Like and for him to suddenly start playing with like that kind of like fantasy and reality is very exciting. But I also think like on a very simple level he's getting at something which is like when

[01:49:00] someone describes having sex with someone to you or even acknowledges that it happened your brain flashes to imagining the visual for a second. Like when does that not happen. Right. So even in this very staid boring conference room where Emily Blunt is going to be so

[01:49:16] deeply embarrassed to hear him acknowledge out loud. Yes we did have intimate relations. It's not like he's describing physical acts. It's her greatest fear is they're now all thinking about it. They all know that's the thing he's trying to write. Yeah you know like he says to

[01:49:31] her has dragged this into this room right. Making me listen to it. He says to her I didn't say anything that you didn't already know. And she went like all of them know now. Yeah. Like I think it's different. Right. It's like they're all thinking

[01:49:41] about him having sex with this woman now and she's looking at them thinking about him having sex with that woman and looking at her and thinking about how it affects her. All of it. Barish she is. That's when Jason Clarke was

[01:49:52] like OK I get it I will do your movie right under your cut movie. Right. But then said like but when was I married to Florence Pugh's character. I just know it was just like if it helps you to understand the moon. I thought about a thing our

[01:50:07] friend Richard Lawson said in a conversation many drinks in on a very unrelated subject many months ago. Trolls. My trolls. He said I never should have said my trolls were out of control. I feel like there's blood on my hands. He said that to Harry Truman. Yes.

[01:50:22] We were we were talking about people who are perhaps characteristically similar to the Florence Pugh character in this film. Sure. Sort of like wild interesting but unstable. Right. Right. And he said like the captivating thing about people like that is they just tell you exactly who

[01:50:39] they are immediately. And even if who they are is terrifying and you know it's going to be harmful to you there's something really hard to resist in that. And I think when Oppenheimer is this like constructed man. So we're talking about Princess Poppy when you were talking about.

[01:50:54] Absolutely. We're talking about Princess Poppy. Well Branch is the one who's really hiding his true self. If you've seen the troller the troller the trolls trailer which I'm calling the troller. Jesus Christ. For trolls band together we find out that Branch the most cynical

[01:51:08] and dour of all trolls was in fact once a member of a boy band. Wow. The actual adult point I was about to make. Yes Griffin. Was that Oppenheimer is this constructed man right. He's sort of an act to a certain degree. And he's made of Lego.

[01:51:24] He's made of Lego. And he's like going through this world trying to make sense of other people who are putting on airs and this and that. And here's this one one who just cannot hide what she thinks and who she is at any very.

[01:51:36] And he's he interior he interior rises everything right. He's all inside and she is. Look at my boobs. I'm out here. I'm saying things and getting up to me baby. Getting up from bed to look at your bookshelf and neg you about it.

[01:51:53] You know a quick thing while we're talking about women in this movie there is one thing I just want to say. And what's that. I want to. I mean well it's not gonna be me it's going to be filmmaker Barbie voicing this opinion.

[01:52:06] I'm Marie Barty will say that I believe Oppenheimer is a masterpiece five stars. It's great. However film director Barbie will say that he is not beating the camp right women allegations. I think Emily Blunt the fucking the one complaint I have about

[01:52:23] him on trial he'd be like I'm guilty. Right. Yes. I mean can't we can't write women jail when Flint makes his movie about Chris Nolan. That's the every scene she's got a drink in her hand. Look and I guess she was an alcoholic.

[01:52:38] When you read the book that's her. Who are you saying. It is Kitty Kitty Kitty Oppenheimer. OK. Yeah. I'm correct. You were subtle. Yeah. Got it. I mean look Ben's big takeaway walk out of theater he went I don't know if you guys know this

[01:52:51] but they used music a couple times. Yeah. And then and then he said and did you guys notice she was always drinking. Kitty was goggles she had were crazy three sheets to the wind all the time. She certainly did have kids and then later going I don't know

[01:53:03] what to do right fucking thing and someone else take care of it in the movie it's played a little bit like Lucille Bluth. It's a little comical. Yes. I think she was kind of a firecracker. I got blessed. Yeah stuff is just so the horse is powerful.

[01:53:17] You're like I get it. No. There are moments where she were right after Florence Pugh dies and she's like get yourself together you're not. He's out in the desert. And that's that's fantastic. And her showcase of grammar shutting down Jason yes yes are

[01:53:36] both fantastic but all of the little like you know it's a little her performance is a little mannered. I don't know if it's a her performance thing or if it's the way the character is written or what it is. It rubbed against film director

[01:53:49] Barbie in a way that you know I like that I do feel like she's kind of doing a Barbara Stanwyck thing and that she's sort of doing a performance of the way that women acted in movies of that era. Spiky 40s Dame. I love Emily Blunt.

[01:54:05] I'm very pro Emily. Let's put it bluntly. We'd love her. Is she a mannered actress. I don't know. I guess not. I guess this is more she can fit mannered. Right. Yeah. She's pretty versatile. Yes. Um. So yeah it's like I really see

[01:54:20] the like it's like her last few years it's like Jungle Cruise Quiet Place Part 2. Yeah. Which like she barely gets to talk in that movie. What the fuck. Thank you. Silence falls. Mary Poppins returns like is one of those things where I'm like you've done your best here.

[01:54:43] I don't know. It's not a bad performance. It's a bit of an Oppenheimer moment. Did this need to be done? What have we done? Right. Like the last time I've truly loved her is fucking Answer Tomorrow. Yeah. Like ever since then I've always

[01:54:56] just been like I am pro blunt always. Right. But often kind of like you know I love to see you doing. All those performances you listed I like I watched Jungle Cruise and I was like damn she's really fucking good. She's good in it.

[01:55:07] That movie I'm just like to what end. Yeah. I remember feeling the same way during Into the Woods where I'm like she kind of can do anything. Yeah. What a shame that it's in service of this film. Yeah. Sicario she's good in but that

[01:55:20] movie Sicario I think she's pretty phenomenal. Yeah. But the movie then shunks her horribly. I think that's the point. I agree. I agree. But nonetheless that is what's happening definitely blunt theater. Right. She's great in Quiet Place. But I heard you know in Huntsman

[01:55:35] Winters War she fought the war she was the ice queen. I mean I like her when she's tough and prickly like she is in Edge of Tomorrow. One of the greatest performances in the history of cinema. And Devil Wears Prada and Looper

[01:55:47] and you know she's like I like that mode and I think she's trying to channel that in this movie. But for some it just didn't. That's the only piece that felt yeah not perfect. I just kicked down my battering was sitting on my desk. I'm in this world.

[01:56:06] I mean I'm a grown. Why didn't Batman interrogate Oppenheimer. He should have. Sorry. I mean we would have been over and done with in 45 minutes. No you know the Nolan dead wife trope right. No this wife is alive. Yeah absolutely. This has a dead mistress.

[01:56:24] It's a very different story. I have always Christopher Nolan has always struck me as someone who in his movies expresses things that he maybe could never express with his own words. Right. Not that the man is not in touch with his own feelings or lacks interiority. Sure.

[01:56:43] But it does feel like movies are very therapeutic for him and you're finding out a lot of what he finds interesting and what scares him and all of that. Makes a lot of sense that he's been with the same woman for the majority of his life.

[01:56:53] He has many children with her. She is his producing partner in all films and he seems most terrified in the world of the idea of his wife dying. That is like the scariest thing he could possibly imagine. So you're saying that all his

[01:57:05] dead wives are actually just a really sweet reflection on his own living wife. To a certain degree. That is a very interesting reading of Batman. I don't think that makes up for the fact that he greatly underserves his female characters because he makes them serve as

[01:57:20] plot functions for his greatest fear rather than letting them exist as people. And I do think... Who's the best Nolan lead? I was just thinking this. I think Catwoman is good. I think Murph an interstellar because she is not a wife and she is a daughter.

[01:57:34] No, she rules. She's the best. But I also think like Carrie-Anne Moss in Memento is better than most of the ones. That's a really clever femme fatale character. It's his best of the femme fatales. Well, I just... Whatever. Let's not talk about his dead wives too much.

[01:57:50] What were you going to say? I like the idea of Marion Cotillard in Inception so much even though she is the prototypical dead wife because she is literally dead for the whole movie. I'd bump on it less if she was the only example of that in his filmography.

[01:58:03] Because the idea of like what if something happened to you that haunted you and then you were a person who lived inside your own mind, she would always be there being like, remember me bitch? The concept of that character I think is really cool.

[01:58:14] I'm about to ask a very controversial question. Do it. OK. Has she given a good performance in English? Marion Cotillard? I think several, yes. Like what? Well, I think she's amazing in Public Enemies. Maybe you don't agree but I love that performance. I don't remember her performance

[01:58:30] in Public Enemies. I fucking love it. And I like her in Allied a lot. Allied is my favorite American or my favorite English language Cotillard but her best performances are in French. Yes. No question. Obviously. Right. Yes. Rust and Bone in my mind is her...

[01:58:46] Rust and Bone is phenomenal. Two Days, One Night. She's amazing. I think she's really good in The Immigrant. That's an English performance. Assassin's Creed. What are we talking about? Assassin's Creed. You're right. Zappo. No, that language is not written... That was not written in English.

[01:58:57] That was written in fucking... Creties. Wingdings. But how dare you? That was a good joke. Immigrant's English language. Yeah, Immigrant. She's an awesome actress. I think... She plays foreign characters in English movies well. Right. I mean... If she came in and she's like,

[01:59:15] Hey guys, I'm from New York City. I'm still waiting for her to play Adam Sandler's wife in a movie. That's the one I'm waiting for. Baby, why are you so sad? What did David Spade say to you? Eh, call me a loser. I re-watched Inception over the weekend.

[01:59:29] Come to bed. Don't play video games. I don't know. I don't want to have sex with you, Marianne Couture. Come on, our politics are probably kind of similar. Horseshoes thing. I just put these basketball shorts on. I don't want to take them off. Jet fuel cannot melt buildings.

[01:59:44] You're so funny, Marianne Couture. You love the New York Jets. I love to talk about jet fuel. Yeah, why not a couple? Yeah. Great. Serious episode. No bets. Go on, Marie. No, I re-watched... What have we done? Hoboppenheimer. Glasses shaking. I just re-watched Inception this

[02:00:05] weekend, a movie that I had only seen once in theaters. And... That's crazy. I mean, I, you know... Forky did recently. She was like, what's that movie I hate that you love? And I was like, it could be a lot of movies. She's like, the one where like

[02:00:19] Leonardo DiCaprio is in Dreams. I'm like, yeah, well, I do love that movie. I suppose you do hate it. I remember liking it at the time. Yeah. Because that was, you know... Part of the time in my life where I was a student at New York

[02:00:35] University's Tisch School of the Arts. David's pointing? Pointing at Barbie. Yeah, Barbie. Film school Barbie. She's saddled with debts! Film school Barbie went to Chapman. All right. But anyway, I'm sorry, you were film school? And I went with a group of like 20 people.

[02:00:52] There were no assigned seats at the Lincoln Square IMAX. So you had to go like five hours in advance. People brought board games. I do remember that where you just feel like, well, I'll show up three hours early. Yeah. It was for the midnight screening on Thursday night.

[02:01:07] And that was, I mean, insane. Things were clearly better then. So I remember my experience of seeing Inception as like a fun event. I did not. I remember the hallway fight. Yeah. And the totem. Yeah. Token is a totem. Only I know the exact weight, size of Logan.

[02:01:29] That's why we were talking Inception, me and my wife, because Joseph Gordon-Levitt was on Sesame Street. Carry on, continue. She was like, what happened to this guy? Only I know the exact weight of this cookie. Oh, can we not go on? Well, just real quick, Joseph Gordon-Levitt.

[02:01:44] I had like a really weird experience recently where I was watching The Wind Rises, but I was watching the dub version. Oh yeah. And I didn't know it was him. And I was like, this guy's got a sexy voice. Who is this?

[02:01:53] And I looked it up and I'm like, oh yeah, I guess Joseph Gordon- Levitt does have a sexy voice. Only I know the exact weight of this murder weapon. Of his voice. What about Inception? I did not like it. What? The fuck is the matter with you? Out!

[02:02:06] I'm sorry. David, David, David, David. Film school Barbie can take over. I bet she liked Inception. Why didn't you like it? I just got bored. It was like a lot of exposition. Yes! Yes. It rules! It's like reading the most exciting instruction manual of all time.

[02:02:23] It's the best. But the best thing about Inception is it's like the first act is Leonardo DiCaprio being like, here's the instruction manual. And then, you know, Elliot Page reads it. He's like, you know, I get it. And then he keeps being like, I

[02:02:35] have more pages from the instruction manual actually. And they all contradict the other parts. You know, like it's so good. I think the action in the like the last third is really fun. Yeah. But the middle. Killian Murphy, who we should talk about in this movie, crying? Yeah.

[02:02:49] Yeah. And Pete Cosself waits dead Beth? Yeah. Dead Beth. I need to go home and lie down. Yeah. I mean, no, I wouldn't say it's like a total stinker. None of Nolan's movies are stinkers. But I was looking at my phone a lot. What about the Inception episode

[02:03:09] we did where we had a podcast within a podcast? That was a classic episode of Blaine. That sounds great. Well, I think I think dreams are cool. I would like to, you know, go through them. What about the meme of Leo squinting? You wouldn't have that without Inception.

[02:03:23] You wouldn't have that without Inception. I'm just gonna, you know, put on my little nerd hat and say I prefer Paprika. I, that's fair. Will always find the comparison people make between those two masterpieces a little baffling. Well. I will always find the idea that

[02:03:38] Nolan ripped off Paprika to be very strange given as someone who loves Paprika and has seen it so many times they're not that similar apart from the very basic concept of going inside people's dreams. But David right now are you hearing like people going like this?

[02:03:51] And I know you're hearing explosions. That's gonna make people crazy because people don't agree with that point. And I've never quite as someone who's watched Paprika many times I've never quite understood but whatever. Okay. Our friend Siddhant, past and future guest, has been wrote some

[02:04:09] very good pieces in the lead up to Oppenheimer but also has been reposting all his pieces on Nolan over the years who's a filmmaker. He's followed closely and written about a lot and he threw out a term in one of the pieces I

[02:04:20] forget about just like it and it it's you know I think it could have been perceived as a side swipe but I don't think it was. He was almost saying like it is secretly one of the things that makes him really interesting. He mentioned his distinct lack of

[02:04:34] imagination. Right. Right. There is this thing where Nolan is a guy who wants to make sense of things. He's not going on flights of fancy. He's trying to like solve them in this way that's very similar to all the scientists in this movie

[02:04:48] who are sitting down and just trying to crack the code. It's the reason why like you know The Dark Knight being a movie that kind of broke Hollywood for a while. Like how does everyone replicate this. And the thing that we forget now because we're thankfully kind of

[02:04:59] out of it was like the seven or eight years of blockbusters being really fucking dour and self-serious and gritty and realistic where they were all trying to copy the Nolan thing but it was an affectation. Right. It was like a posture versus

[02:05:14] Nolan being like I need to create a Batman that makes sense to me. Like he fundamentally rejected a Batman that felt fanciful not as some sort of like hook but as like everything needs to have some practical sense. Right. That's just how he thinks through things.

[02:05:27] It's like he's working on a proof right. And I think this movie is him similarly just trying to like get to how do I come up with answers for questions that are unanswerable. Right. But that are beyond that like movies that are about a movie

[02:05:42] that is about circumstances when people are asked questions where the effect of how they answer at that moment is so great where you really have to think about the weight of how you respond. I think Inception the obvious like kind of slam on it is like

[02:05:55] for me about dreams it should be a lot fucking wilder. That's often been the slam and I've been like well bitch these are Christopher Nolan's dreams. Exactly. He dreams like an architect. Exactly. And this guy cannot put a single thing on screen that is not a

[02:06:06] reflection of his worldview which is for better or worse what we find interesting about directors. Imagery in Inception satisfyingly surreal in many ways. But you know what. Drag me all over town. Ben's raising his hand. OK let's talk about Killian. Yes yes.

[02:06:23] We tabled that and it's sort of an important. Obviously he's worked with Mr. Nolan many times. This is the fifth. This is six six six time Batman has done three Batman Inception Dunkirk this. Correct. OK. He's wonderful in all those films. Agreed. It's great in the Batman movies

[02:06:40] obviously his part in Dunkirk is so powerful. Yeah. Pretty astonishing and honestly he's kind of the emotional fulcrum of Inception to like you know in this stealth way that you don't even realize he's got the best eyes in the biz. Yeah. Obviously we talked plenty about

[02:06:55] him in our Boyle series. It's a big year of Killian for us because we talked about 28 days later in Sunshine which are also I think Sunshine's going to get an Oppenheimer bump. I think I do too. I mean it's like available for you to watch. Yeah.

[02:07:08] If they make that movie legal again he's had he's he's joked about like I guess I read physicist because I keep writing physicists. Yeah. It's a tough performance. Good at staring into blindingly bright lights. You know like yeah Robert Downey Jr. Who is tremendous in this movie

[02:07:24] and obviously there's just also the incredible excitement of watching him. He's back on court. Yeah. Literally right going like hey I had this bottle of champagne in my fridge it's been here for like 20 years. He's been serving you wine cooler the last 10 years and

[02:07:37] they taste good and they get you drunk. And like so. And he has like slam dunk kind of thunderous moments like where you're like wow this is going to resonate for the whole year. Yeah. Killian's not getting those moments because that's you know the character he's playing the

[02:07:52] arc he's serving. Downey Jr. keeps on. I think the guy who keeps like dumping roses at this guy's feet you know. But also the bigger stars in this movie on their press tours that all happened right before the strike. Yeah. Sometimes they were in solo

[02:08:06] sometimes they were paired up with Killian and regardless of whether he was there or not next to them they basically all keep on using the fact that they're the bigger name to say like by the way this guy gives maybe the performance of a generation right.

[02:08:18] Like they're just like it's insane watching him work was insane watching the final product was insane. And I was like are they in danger of overhyping this thing when you watch it you understand what they're reacting to which is this guy just has to fucking

[02:08:30] maintain this home for like three hours of movie and three hours a movie that whip around so wildly in time and place that he's doing so many like tiny scene fragments right where it's 10 seconds of him at a blackboard in a time that they'll never return to you

[02:08:47] know. 30 seconds of him saying two sentences to one person with you know ripple effects that will like a puddle. And they keep having this imagery of the ripples and those puddles. He gets big scenes but the guy never has catharsis. The guy never has the blow up right.

[02:09:04] He's just got to hold this thing for like three hours where you're just like the concentration of this performance is astonishing to me. The restraint of it. Right. Yeah. The catharsis you're getting is like Strauss melting down at the end of the film totally is Kitty

[02:09:21] you know demolishing the king of cucks and then later you know refusing to shake Teller's hand yes after his hand you know those those moments are powerful every moment. Not that right. I mean Florence Pugh has four scenes each of them is incredibly emotional. Right. Right. Right.

[02:09:37] She's she's giving this big you know but David won't stop yelling. God bless him. I wish he'd yell at me in bed but he's just like Kelly Murphy just has to do like three hours of this and have have you believe which I think he does in every

[02:09:49] single frame of this movie the shit going on in this guy's mind is impossible to comprehend. Right. He also communicates enthusiasm well like if he was my science teacher I'd probably enjoy myself. And I think like the way he's described in the book and the

[02:10:06] movies is like he was this really good because there's this moment where Damon's like why don't you have a Nobel Prize. Like I want you to be in charge of this but like you're not even like the leading physicist. Yeah. In this field. And he apparently was just

[02:10:18] really good at like summarizing people's arguments pushing the thing forward. The great salesman of science is carrying the ball. Yeah. You know like and you whenever he seems the most alive in those scenes of lots of people that thing that I got for one pupil

[02:10:33] and he's like don't worry when they find out what we're doing in here and you see this sort of time lapse of yeah the room filling up and him becoming a fucking rock star. Yeah. I'd fuck him. Yeah. I'd fuck everyone in this movie.

[02:10:45] It's yes yes yes yes yes. I was going to my single favorite like sort of line reading he has in the film is when Damon's interviewing him and he goes you want to know the best quote I got about you Oppenheimer couldn't even run a hamburger stand and

[02:10:57] he laughs and he goes I could. Yeah. Right. That's not my it's not my field. Right. He doesn't push back on it at all. Right. And then he just gets up and explains to him what he understands better than anyone else in the world.

[02:11:07] Man they're back and forth those two. They have they have a bunch of scenes that are so like I mean the standout is when right before the test. Yeah. Where they're like right where they're talking about like what if it blows up the world. This doesn't happen though.

[02:11:20] Our careers are ruined. Right. Right. Well then maybe the world would go. But there. Right. Which is obviously higher. That's the theory thing where he's like what can I give you. It's fucking theory. Like you never know. But there is yeah there is also

[02:11:31] that you know the marbles being put in the jar of like we only have so much plutonium. Yes. Every time if one of this doesn't work we just blew a lot of our plutonium. We don't have more. There's also that scene where he invites Damon over for steamed

[02:11:42] clams and then he accidentally overcooks them. And so he has to sneak out the window to Krusty Burger and buy hamburgers and then pretend that they're steamed ham. The Simpsons. It's an upstate New York thing. Quickly just some other actors. I had like a Vince McMahon meme reaction.

[02:12:00] Yeah. I want to. Let's run down. OK. Yeah. We'll run down the list. So the three actors I did not know were in this movie. Sure. Oh no sorry. Four. OK. Or let's say I knew they were in the movie I did not know who they were playing.

[02:12:12] Sure. And also so many people were in the cast that said some people you're like maybe I knew that at one point forgot. Wait maybe it is. Oh yeah no it's four. OK. Number one Kenneth Branagh as Niels Bohr. Great great use of just like

[02:12:25] Kenneth is the new Michael Kane. I was going to say yes. Right. I mean I was I third Nolan movie in a row. Michael Kane seems to do a weird voice. Yeah he's yeah. He's really good actually because he's got the two crucial scenes. Yes.

[02:12:39] I thought his is that supposed to be a Danish accent. Sound a little like Christopher Walken. He is a Danish. Wow. Yeah. No. Or great great the Great Dane we called him. Yeah. Woof woof. We all used to call him that back in the day. Yeah.

[02:12:51] So Branagh showing up doing a funny voice playing Niels Bohr lost it. I did not realize that Casey Affleck was in this movie playing a terrifying character. And he is so well deployed. Yeah. He's such a little seething weasel of a fucking you're

[02:13:08] immediately like oh my God this guy goes home and jerks off about like communist dying. Yeah. Like and you can't the way that Damon describes what he what he tell you. And Damon's like wait you talk to that fucking guy and you're cutting to like a very reserved

[02:13:23] Casey Affleck but just scary with his like baby voice. Yeah. Just like he constantly shaves the character. He's like so close. Yeah. I mean that was that was very and I think that is the second most unnerving scene. And while there's a lot of

[02:13:37] unnerving scenes the way they describe this guy though you're picturing like Sergeant Rock and then they keep on cutting back to Casey Affleck and it makes them all the scarier to have them be like this is the fucking worst guy alive. Yeah. Maybe in second worst Hitler's

[02:13:49] still alive at that point in the movie going third person. Truman. Gary Oldman showing up as Truman. I mean I think a slam dunk performance. Yeah. And David and I disagree strongly on Darkest Hour movie I dislike in a performance I dislike. Wonderful film.

[02:14:05] And this he's he's going similarly big but I think he's going to be using the same glasses. Really work. I mean the pupils are so big. He's so he's really good. That's that's right out of history obviously that Oppenheimer went to Harry Truman to plead his case.

[02:14:22] I'm reaching out my handkerchief and you're waving it in your fucking face. And then unfold a nervous break there's an orange. Yeah. Thank you. Had a nervous breakdown in front of the president in a soft way at least. And the president basically you know Truman risk of this

[02:14:36] reaction of like one I'm the one who made the decision. Cry baby. Yeah. And to like I was hoping you come in and be like hey I got some more atom bomb ideas for you. You know like not like this whole like the blood on my right.

[02:14:50] But also like Truman's like sort of folksy ness is as much of a Western fellow as like Oppenheimer's weird dark cowboy physicist thing. Right. You know like all these guys have these personas they make on in the same way that Damon's whole

[02:15:05] thing is like I'm just a gruff military man. I don't understand science at all. He went to MIT. He knows everything they're fucking talking about at least in a basic sense. He's fascinated by all that. But he like wants to play dumb

[02:15:15] like he's got he's got a cowboy streak as well. And like you know he's trying not to write that. Yeah. And then the fourth was Rami Malek who. So he's really well used. He is introduced early on and doesn't say a goddamn word.

[02:15:29] He's in two scenes where he basically doesn't speak where he's just like part of a gang of scientists who are there. Yeah. And I truly was like there's no way he's not using Malek. He's got to do something. So I was wondering what it's

[02:15:42] going to be but I think it's so important one because Malek does a great job with that scene. The speech he gives. And two because you're just the minute you see him you're like fuck he's actually right. He was there the whole time

[02:15:54] because the whole conceit of him is that Strauss is like Hill who's that again. He won't be mean to me. Right. I don't even remember who that guy is. Yeah. He wasn't at Los Alamos. He was working in Chicago with Fernie. Yes. Right. Yeah.

[02:16:05] Like the Chicago pile it was called. Yeah. The first nuclear reactor essentially. Yeah. Yeah. And it's kind of crazy too that all of these like scientists were just chilling around fucking radiation constantly. I mean it wasn't great. Oh I don't think it was good.

[02:16:20] No no not at all. No. Rami's got big eyes. Yeah he's got some jeepers peepers. And when his role is basically to have you take notice of the fact that he is watching things. Yeah. Right. He's yeah. Great. Great. Great point. Yeah. That he's witnessing events.

[02:16:39] The billing of this movie. You had the big five above the title on the poster. If you want Damon Downey. Pew. Right. Downey taking the lead in the right. Downey taking the fourth spot. Because it's alphabetical after Killian. Yeah. And then we were like who else is

[02:16:52] going to get single card in this crazy cast. Right. It's crazy cast of Nolan's. And you're like it's Josh. Hartnett. Yep. And then it's the three Oscar winners Affleck Malik Brana. Yeah. As you pointed out this film has five Oscar winners in it. Yep.

[02:17:08] And three plus Damon and down when and Branagh for screenplay. No it's sorry it's a Damon Affleck Malik Branagh. And who's the fifth. Oldman. Oldman. Who's not uncredited but is buried in a. Yes. Or whatever. Yeah. Some other. I'm just going to. So blunt we talked about Damon

[02:17:28] we love that performance I assume just so. Damon. I said this to you in blank dough you didn't respond. I didn't say it to you. I said it. OK. You keep saying about Damon I want to. I want to claim him like a tree. I do want to.

[02:17:39] Is he tall. He is pretty tall. I mean. I think it's really. He's talking about the hefty. Yeah. I'm all around him. Right. I got a spiral. He's five more like a mountain. So taller than Murphy and down. I would say you know there was

[02:17:53] Damon had a bit of a fallow period in his career around when like you know the fifth Jason Bourne movie in the Great Wall you know where it was sort of like you know it's kind of like what's what's his what's his move here now. Right.

[02:18:07] You know what are we doing Damian. Like you know. And the last five years or so let me start with here fucking IMDb sucks so mean still water which I still think is maybe his best performance. Water is OK. So like so you say that the

[02:18:20] Martian is amazing but then like post Martian you know it's Jason Bourne Great Wall downsizing which I think he's really good in love that movie doesn't connect and some hard. I like downsizing. It's a good American masterpiece. But then post that Griff you know

[02:18:36] he does his little Sodie cameo and on saying right which is really good and similar kind of Sodie pop in no sudden right which is amazing but his big roles Ford versus Ferrari still water the last duel air and this. Yeah he is on a tremendous run

[02:18:51] agreed of doing different things yes working in different like modes making big movies that are not franchise movies or not you know like and he's awesome in all of those movies. Yeah. Now what I love about it is he's trying a lot of different shit

[02:19:06] and it almost feels like he's established his new home base as a movie star right. His default performance mode for maybe his 50s now as he goes in white fella tired exasperated irritated husky do like what do you what are you trying to say to

[02:19:22] me like this energy of just like that out with that's Ford obviously right still water is like a real performance that's a great good movie and he's just amazing and I'm linking still water Oppenheimer air yeah as that feels like there's new era last duel he's fucking hilarious

[02:19:39] in that movie he's such a buffoon yeah he's so good yeah he's happy to make himself the butt of jokes yes and then yeah this an air it's just yet like it's that energy yeah okay Robert Downey Jr. Do you like the performance

[02:19:52] I think he's going to win an Oscar I think he I think he probably is like I think it's just kind of that that uncorking thing like yeah buddy we knew you we knew you had it in yeah it's weird to see both these guys are talking about

[02:20:04] now kind of looking old well look down a junior I know he's wearing makeup yeah lost weight he shaved his hair like that he looks a lot like his father in this which I thought yeah very fascinating and his father was obviously this great

[02:20:16] countercultural figure he was about his opposite from Strauss as you could get but especially in sort of the latest period of the movie people haven't seen senior which is the documentary about his father that's really good but there's a really strong resemblance there and

[02:20:30] he's even talked about in interviews of like it was wild to look at myself yeah this is me in 15 years he hasn't done anything transformative in 15 years as an actor right right that's the last movie where he looked different and he looked quite different in that

[02:20:48] movie yes but but now it's like you know what's the big move we're doing for do little stubble no mustache you know like everything's like adjusting a little bit the default downy look and this is him really changing his look up and I think he

[02:21:02] said he looked in the mirror and he saw his dad and he was just like oh I have not seen myself look like this because to a certain degree he has been preventing himself from aging because he's an A-list movie star the other

[02:21:13] thing I read in interview is he was talking about I think it's in that New York Times piece where he was saying like the way that Nolan works is so sort of like Spartan and such a team effort there are no egos and everything

[02:21:24] and he said we were like setting up a shot and Nolan was like framing the camera around me I was sitting in a chair and he was like I have to run quickly can I just hand this off to you

[02:21:34] or he handed him a roll of film or something he handed Downey jr. a piece of equipment was like I'll be back in one second and he was like this would never happen on a Marvel movie right and this isn't him showing disrespect for

[02:21:45] me but it's like we're all just in this together and he was like I haven't had to hold equipment on a set in so long and he was like this is what I grew up with was my dad grew up around cameras

[02:21:55] handing me film canisters and he was like it was such a nice moment and I read that and I went I bet Nolan did that on purpose right I absolutely believe in it anyway Nolan was like right this is like a sensory tactile experience

[02:22:10] performance better I'm so into your Nolan voice sorry I am too but you just feel that you feel him being not just these uncorked but that he's like really connected into the meat of the movie it's nice that he got to be you know on

[02:22:26] a real set yes I hope he does more of this kind wearing an actual costume not one of the dramas Florence Pugh we talked about Josh Hartnett we talked about you know yeah just got to acknowledge that he looks like Aaron

[02:22:39] Sorkin he does he's got the hair that looks oh oh glad we caught that on mic surround you guys gonna start a musical about people who look like Aaron Sorkin I think that's a wonderful performance yeah made me really want to check in

[02:22:56] with Hartnett like apparently that was a ruse to care Bilga was going on about that like I love Bilga the death but sometimes I'll be like hmm and I'm like what he did to guy Richie's yeah he's really I mean I'm a big fan of Wrath of

[02:23:10] Man which he's also in he's not the best part of it or anything like that I have not seen Rooster gear KCF like we mentioned Malik we mentioned Brandon we mentioned Benny Safdie is wonderful yes Edward Teller he's playing a guy who

[02:23:24] essentially dr. strange I was based on yes and that Edward Teller had that accent yes yeah and yeah it's a little waddley but like and it's really interesting to hear what you talk about it where he's like I'm listening to you

[02:23:37] know no one's giving me all these tapes of this guy speaking yeah he sounds like this right and I'm like how hard am I supposed to hit this like and is there anybody to do this and not make it sound goofy no matter how accurate I go like

[02:23:47] a Hungarian yeah like a thick Hungarian accent and he totally nails so grumpy Gus like everything about this energy yeah like what the words like hi Edward and he goes yes like he's just kind of an ass he's like at one point in like

[02:24:02] like early meeting when they're just setting up Los Alamos he's like this is more important and he just like sort of interrupts a pee right and like Benny Safdie who has weirdly become the character actor of his generation yeah the guy that every fucking major

[02:24:17] director wants to slot in I was saying to Marie I love are you there God it's me Margaret yeah I felt him being a little unmoored in that movie sure where that's good I mean he's got nice energy obviously like that's a role where the

[02:24:31] whole point is like you kind of just want like a solid simple kind of uncomplicated guy and I felt like he was struggling more to play a guy who didn't have like he didn't have some weird thing about him yeah really good

[02:24:44] at actually doing the work if you put a really complicated assignment on his plate which is passing for a guy who was not like intending to be an actor yeah yeah yeah yeah Jason Clark King of Cucks yeah Dylan Arnold not an actor I'm that

[02:24:58] familiar with he's the guy he's in the Halloween movies the Gordon Green movies as a Frank Oppenheimer oh okay really strong resemblance yes both to killing into the real Frank Oppenheimer really good job on the aging in this movie too by the way we're like so fucking yeah

[02:25:15] when we cut to Oppenheimer University and there is no fucking de-aging you just put him in a different wig and you let an actor play a different age I think they didn't even again Nolan hates weeks I think they just cut his hair

[02:25:25] different they like make his hair stand up yeah I think he was a little like a little heavier yeah and they basically don't really go hard on aging makeup until the funny prize so brief but they do they do use aging makeup in subtle

[02:25:42] ways like that they have like more eye folds but it feels like the very classical of like oh they're putting like burnt apple skin on their face it's just like very it's it's just classic movie like right yeah no totally Tom Conti comes on Rains 3 yes just

[02:25:57] absolutely fucking dominates yes mr. Lawrence himself the only person the only celebrity my mother has ever written a fan letter to is Tom Conti and he replied what did he say he I assume said thank you and was very nice about

[02:26:12] it she wrote him a letter but about his performance in the Broadway play whose life is it anyway which is he won the Tony for in 1979 she said it's the only time I ever was like so moved by something and she was younger uh-huh like

[02:26:27] that I felt compelled to write a fan letter Wow and he replied is that the play that Mary Tyler Moore replaced him in well that actually sounds true yes there's a gender version of it it's about a guy who's paralyzed yeah that's it

[02:26:44] yeah wow Mary Tyler Moore okay she got like a special Tony for yeah because they couldn't give her right because she didn't originally was the wrong yeah um but uh that he's best known I think for that for Ruben Rubin when she got an

[02:26:57] Oscar nomination for Merry Christmas mr. Lawrence and and just honestly a lot of others he's a great character he's his friends I believe he's in the hole with Bruce Wayne and Dark Knight Rises telling us yes I do love it when Nolan

[02:27:11] brings guys off the bench yeah yeah but no this is I mean this is the thing that should break the movie no you have sort of like magical Einstein popping in at the at the appropriate moments a thing that is really a narrative he does pop in

[02:27:25] at one point which is fun yeah behind the taxi yes the the one fiction Nolan's allowing himself is that when you know Oppenheimer took those calculations of like are we gonna blow up the world he took it to a different side right and

[02:27:39] no relationship with I don't need it but these scenes are all created Dolan's like he should talk to Einstein as this figure of the past yes that they all revere but are also moving beyond yes and Einstein was very negative about quantum theory and didn't like the idea

[02:27:53] of chaos yeah in science kind of an anti-joker exactly exactly and that's why he did battle with the Joker he did but but like so Einstein sort of wouldn't engage with their theories at a certain point spent the rest of his life sort of

[02:28:08] trying to negate them mm-hmm but they love him still and that's that's you know the role he plays James Darcy is black it yeah a little one scene performance there yeah in the Apple and then you don't much all just mulching both

[02:28:21] incredibly good I think really good yeah yeah I took a photo of the title card that had Alden Dane and David Das Michalian or whatever his name is Karen boy card yeah I was like Jesus Christ these three guys it is that Tony Goldwyn

[02:28:34] is just always good as some Washington fuck mentioned early but Macon Blair I think is really good yes making players really good there's and also I was like that was making yeah I didn't realize really yeah interesting there's a scars guard in this movie good stuff yeah yeah

[02:28:51] love you see the Hans Bethe he's the see the tall yeah bald guy okay yeah Jefferson Hall is Hakan Chevalier be the sort of communist devastating scene when they show up with the baby he's got a really good face he does that guy he's

[02:29:09] on house of the dragon right now what else okay do I know him from he's got a good face he's on Vikings apparent Jack Quaid playing bongos yeah Feynman love him look Jack we just showed up on the best show on television strange worlds playing his cartoon character

[02:29:25] from fucking live action or yes okay show the episode opens in animated and he gets sucked through a portal into live-action years ago yeah and it's got purple hair great love Jack Quaid I want him Damon you're out subbing in a 20 years younger guy Quaid Wow hop in

[02:29:43] okay see 20 years younger yeah yeah love him in this though that guy was fun yeah he's playing yeah and I think they know and probably just thinks like quakes got a fun energy yes yes yes yeah Josh Peck which a lot of people were very

[02:30:01] surprised by him being cast in this movie he's good and he plays the guy who pushes the button yeah yeah so I'm just putting my theory out here and I have told this to David Sims I'm betting you that Oppenheimer will not be in David

[02:30:16] Ehrlich's top 25 but the countdown where Josh Peck if you don't put this in your top five I'm going to drag you on every episode of blank check in 2024 every single one a drive-by but yeah even once you're on never have I seen a countdown

[02:30:31] yeah so perfectly suited for Ehrlich's purposes yes anyway yeah good looking countdown yeah great we mentioned Modine Krumholz just once again I mean Krumholz is my favorite in the favorite performance in this movie it's an amazing he enters into this movie you

[02:30:45] seen it twice there's the scene on the train yeah that's kind of the convening of the Jews a little yeah yeah west side of the park I see right he's from downtown he's I think he's just making fun of him for being like a you know

[02:30:57] Oppenheimer was a Tony boy went sure right ethical cultures from the up west side you know more of an OB boy exactly drama desk boy well he enters into this movie and my immediate thought was like man the next 40 years of Krumholz his

[02:31:11] career are gonna be so good you can be eating them oranges right and he's been on like a good like obviously like Leopold Stralton all these things but then you're just like this feels like it's like really crystallizing on such a

[02:31:22] grand stage you know him I've met him he's he's a he's a very nice man I wouldn't say I I know him I'm not friends with him okay yeah sort of odd to engage with in a way but also he's he likes you or he liked things he's

[02:31:36] been very nice to me on Instagram he's been very nice to me very supportive of my work see a friend I would love to get him on the podcast I don't know if he's ever listened well hey if you're listening yeah we'd love to weirdly came

[02:31:48] to one of my new shows years ago and was really and was like he DM'd you saying this is David Krumholz. He came up to me back it was it was he came to the best sketch I ever did it was like if there was

[02:32:00] ever a night where Krumholz was gonna see me. Now did he ride an elf jetpack in? He did. And he had like the little elf ninjas with him and then he did George Lucas a couple months ago so I've only met him

[02:32:13] recently twice but both times I've had very nice conversations. Sort of a crumb sandwich. A little bit of a crumb sandwich a crumb cake. He was one of my earliest childhood crushes. Well I yeah inform it I mean there have been so many

[02:32:25] pieces written about the the fucking what's it why am I forgetting his character's name in Santa Claus? I don't know. Bernard. Bernard. But it wasn't even the Bernard it was him and Adam's family values. He was such a cutie. Yeah just that's a guy where you're just

[02:32:44] like his he has been doing good work at every age and he evolves and he changes yeah but like he's always good yeah yeah Who else? Oh Alex Wolfe. Alex Wolfe? I mean again these are guys who serve face. Yes. Just I just need one second of their

[02:33:02] face to retain Wolfe's here. Yeah. DeHaan's here. Ali Nescavi is the one who you were doing the impression of at the beginning of the episode who's a very good actor and the director has been doing more film and television recently. Olivia Thirlby. A place where the guy

[02:33:15] basically quits in protest. Yes. Fuck this shit after a while. Yes. And Damon's like maybe we'll have him killed. Just kidding. I always get his name wrong but Josh Zuckerman I think is the one who's the first pupil in the class. Yes.

[02:33:27] Kyle XY character apparently. He was a Kyle XY character? I think he's he's young Dr. Evil in Goldmember. That's who he will forever be to me. You're right. Yes. Christopher Denim as Klaus Fuchs the Soviet spy. Yes. And I think am I

[02:33:44] wrong does he play the same guy on Manhattan? The like show? Manhattan is all fictionalized. Yes. He doesn't play the same character. Fake people but he plays a similar type of guy I think. Yeah. On Manhattan characters like Oppenheimer are sort of like background characters

[02:33:58] who occasionally come in but most of the main characters are sort of inspired by type. Gotcha. And Manhattan is mostly about how everyone was fucking each other. Yeah. It's kind of the idea of like this city of scientists is the idea

[02:34:10] of Manhattan. Isn't it really easy to sell a TV show by just saying. When WGN America was buying them. But go on. But no but also just to go like we all know this thing right? What if everyone was fucking during that. Right. And basic cable would

[02:34:24] just like throw money at you. Pay cable would throw even more as long as you had nudity waivers. Go on. I'm trying to think if there are other big. No that's basically everyone. Oh yeah big scenes. We could talk about this movie for. We

[02:34:36] could. 87 episodes. And I want to see it again. In IMAX I want to know. So I mean I heard some complaints classic Nolan complaints of in IMAX especially somewhat hard to hear the dialogue because it's such a cacophony of sound and we saw 70 millimeter screen together

[02:34:51] when there was an IMAX screening happening above at the same time. And when we talked to people who were in the IMAX screening they were like some of the dialogue I couldn't make out. And that's obviously so much dialogue at the

[02:35:00] constant Nolan hit and a lot of that is he doesn't want to do ADR. He wants to use production audio when you're filming with IMAX cameras. It involves some trickery to remove that sound from the equation. What have you. But we did not

[02:35:12] have that complaint walking out of the 70 millimeter screening going into IMAX. I was curious to see if we had it. I don't know if it's because I had already heard the dialogue one time but I did not find it as sort of disorienting a

[02:35:24] mix as maybe some of his past. I thought it was incredible and IMAX. Yeah like would you just like any time they cut to the true IMAX shots were just like which is quite often I was going to say isn't

[02:35:36] it sort of most of the majority of the movie shot. Yeah. And you just see his big ass face in like the greatest resolution imaginable but with like this real kind of texture and warmth. This is they had to develop black and white IMAX film because

[02:35:54] it was a thing that no one had ever asked for before. Right. Yep. And they have to like start the damn thing on time because it's so fucking long that they don't can't even load previews onto the real. Well for us what they did was they played

[02:36:05] 20 minutes of trailers on the IMAX laser projector and then they clearly switch projectors and there's the great moment where you hear suddenly it's like the trailers end Nicole Kidman lights out and then you hear like. Yeah. And then suddenly. Yeah. I mean it's wild shit that

[02:36:26] he was filming like these dialogue scenes with a fucking IMAX camera like Nolan you know I think it's coming out from like Benevolent Ends but like he's every decision he's making in his career carries weight in that kind of way of

[02:36:37] like if I want to shoot this in black and white new technology has to be developed you know. And IMAX is like okay. How many movies started shooting an IMAX after him? Right. So box office or is there anything

[02:36:51] else we wanted to discuss? Can we do a quick ranking maybe not of all where where does this rank in the Nolan oeuvre? That's a really tough question. I have it second. I had it. I've only seen the movie once I'm gonna wrestle with it. I don't

[02:37:07] you know it's a fluid thing for me always but I have it above everything but Interstellar which is my favorite. I had it at third under the Prestige and Dunkirk. Prestige is my number one. But I think I'm gonna put Oppenheimer now that I've seen

[02:37:20] it twice I'm gonna put that at number one. I think it's his best movie. God bless you. I do think it's a monumental achievement for Mr. Nolan. Let me look over to Listopher Nolan my letterbox private list of Christopher Nolan films. I'm seeing

[02:37:36] here that you've been banned by Letterboxd. I've actually been promoted. I'm the CEO. Huh. My ranking but I think this was my ranking at the time of when we did the miniseries. The list you gave on this show or whatever. It was Prestige, Inception, Memento, Batman

[02:37:50] Begins, Insomnia, Interstellar, Dark Knight Tenet, Dunkirk, Dark Knight Rises, Following, Oppenheimer. Well Oppenheimer last? Well no I'm saying Oppenheimer just added sorry Following would have been last. But that I feel like I'd rethink this whole thing now. Hey man it's always moving around you know.

[02:38:10] I feel like Oppenheimer and Interstellar would be my two and three now and I'm not quite sure where I would land both of them. But I've seen Interstellar several more times since we've done that episode. It's a really fucking good movie.

[02:38:24] Sure is. Ben where do you put Oppie? What's your Oppie thought? Final Oppie thought? Scientists were cool at one point. Well my final thought is I deeply enjoy the movie. There's so much in there. It's like there's the world of Adams and

[02:38:40] then there's just like you pull out from there and I feel like the JFK mention. The very Nolan-y little moment. The fact that he wrote a paper about black holes and I was like reading about that. Like I just I found myself there's

[02:38:57] so it's such an expansive movie. There's so much in there that you could like write a whole you can take a whole fucking class. Any criticism of this movie being myopic it's like that's a specific story he wants to tell. There are many tellings of

[02:39:10] this time which is so expansive that there is no way to do create a work that is all encompassing of everything. Right? But I also think he is so fascinated in like what does it feel like to be inside that moment you know? That singular

[02:39:27] moment like your whole life sort of someone had the I think it was a letterbox review joke of like hold on Oppenheimer needs to think about his entire life before he sets off the bomb like making the Walk Hard joke. Right? But it is that

[02:39:40] it's like an entire life leading up to this one moment that defines humanity and then the wind down from that. Right. And like how do you handle a moment like that? You don't you know? Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to read the book though.

[02:39:57] The book's great read. I have the audio book. I'm currently deep in my newest doorstop which is the new Pulitzer Prize winning autobiography of J. Edgar Hoover. I'm going to read it and then finally watch the Clint Eastwood movie. Joking. I already watched the Clint Eastwood movie.

[02:40:14] Yeah. I was about to say what? But you know I love post-war and you know that period of American history. It's so interesting. Yeah. And complicated and dark. Yeah. I just want to also mention growing up in high school I had a poster of the atomic bomb.

[02:40:30] Oh. And it's hella sus before I recorded it. I still haven't dug it up but I want to find a photo of the smoking cloud in front of it. Wow. Who would dare? Yeah. This film opened at number. You ever think about it though? It's like crazy.

[02:40:44] This film opened at number two at the box office Griffin. Are you aware? I'm aware. To a healthy 82 million dollars. I would say an astonishing number. Both it and Barbie doubled their tracking but Barbie's tracking always seemed like Warner Brothers was kind of

[02:40:59] like trying to downplay the hype. Right. Oppenheimer tracking at 40 I was like that's a pretty healthy number for a three hour R-rated biopic. And I think everyone said like if that gets to 50 you'll be seen as a slam dunk and 80 is almost like incomprehensible.

[02:41:13] And much like Barbie it is now just like eating every day like you know Monday to you know like it's box office success is massive. It's the biggest opening of Nolan's career that's not a Batman movie. Yeah. Why? Because it's the biggest opening ever

[02:41:27] except for American Sniper. Not the passion of the Christ. The Hollywood reporter. That is not a biographical movie. Jesus did not invent chairs for example which is something he or tables. So I had a tweet about this where I kind of dunked on the Hollywood

[02:41:45] reporter and I was like can we call that a biographical film? People were like oh Jesus actually existed as a historical figure. And I'm like excuse me. As someone who was on the show I'm very familiar with Paul Verhoeven's work on the historical

[02:41:59] Jesus. Right. Do they call it X now? Do they X? Okay. So number one was Griffin what was number one of the box office? Number one at the box office was the Barbie movie also just titled Barbie. Barbie which made one hundred

[02:42:13] and sixty two million dollars in three days. Yeah. And is now making twenty five million dollars every weekday. I have friends going to screenings you know film my colleagues my film crew friends like Allison was just texting me she's like I'm at AMC Lincoln Square

[02:42:27] everyone here is a woman in pink. Yes. Like this is like this is this rare thing where it's like this is a phenomenon. Yeah. But the thing that is totally one guy in a trench coat with a wide brimmed hat. The thing that's lost and unprecedented and

[02:42:41] unreplicatable is that like everyone bought into the collective spirit of this thing. And the Barbie people were like we should see Oppenheimer. Yeah. I'll see Oppenheimer. Dory Dory. We should see Barbie. Yeah. Go see that. Damon had this interview where he

[02:42:55] was like the thing that excites me about this movie is like this used to exist big studios with big stars making important movies about difficult subjects and we would go I need to go see that. Right. Even if that's not necessarily my genre quote unquote

[02:43:10] there is like some sense of this is important I should contend with this. Right. And you're like Oppenheimer has now basically outgrossed most best picture winners in one weekend of the last 15 years. Totally. Totally. I mean it's probably going to win best picture. Right. And people who like

[02:43:27] don't. I mean I well I don't know. It's a front runner. It's a front runner. People who don't usually see this type of movie felt like well no I think this is a culturally important to go see this. I need to contend with

[02:43:40] this thing. And they felt the same way about Barbie and that's really fucking exciting. I brought my mom and dad to see Barbie. Everyone wore pink. It was really cute. Yeah. My wife went to see it today. Did she wear pink? Don't

[02:43:53] you know that she wears a lot of pink in her life? I haven't ever seen your wife wear pink. Neither have I. And of course I know your wife better than you do. Of course you do. We went to high school together. Yes that's true.

[02:44:05] Oppenheimer opening to 82 million dollars. Number three the box office Sound of Freedom. Moving on. Let's not talk about that. Number four at the box office Mission Impossible Dead Reckoning Part One making 120 mil over the last two weeks undeniably disappointing. Look the Sound of

[02:44:21] Freedom thing they could not have seen it without the entity put it there. I think that has weirdly become direct competition to Mission Impossible more than any other movie. Yeah I think it is the one being hit the hardest by it. We agree. They fucked up putting this

[02:44:35] movie a week before Oppenheimer. Yes. Like literally you have actually built a brand of Tom Cruise equals large format. Yes. Why are you going to put this movie behind the one movie that's definitely going to be on IMAX? It's the one guy he can't beat. The one guy

[02:44:49] he can't beat is Nolan. Oh Nolan's middle initial is I. Yes. For IMAX. Yes. And then right. And then he's still the thing about it is it's like the movie is still doing fine. It's doing well internationally. Yeah. And the eighth movie is being made. So I

[02:45:03] don't have a lot of sweat over Mission Impossible underperforming. Yeah. But I you know still it's a good movie. Can I can I cruise it up or work with Nolan. He should. He should. He fucking should be he should work with no shit like that's the next move

[02:45:17] should be the two of them being like let's come up with the thing. I want to put this on Mike. OK because our first movie we recorded several weeks ago and the world has changed. Sure has since that the scuttlebutt when they announced that they were going to

[02:45:33] do a two part Mission Impossible sequel right was like Tom Cruise not say this or me up a 60. Yes. They maybe want to get as much in the can as they can. Yes. As quickly as possible. Yes. And of course what they thought would

[02:45:46] be a two year production has basically become a five year production. Yes. But also what happens in between that time I think I did not say on Mike is that Top Gun becomes so big that suddenly Tom Cruise is hotter than

[02:45:57] ever. And I wonder if he goes fuck it. I'm not leaving. I'm going to keep making these forever because recently in the press he was saying I'm not ending no one. I never said the next one was the last one. I want to do

[02:46:09] you wonder is this a smoke screen to make some actual narrative tension if the last one's the last one make it hit harder or whatever. Right. But maybe not. Maybe you're right. Maybe he's like I'm Tom Cruise I'm invincible. And I think the thing that's been

[02:46:23] going on for a week since we record that episode is he went into it thinking that I guess it's time to get all the gettings good and then went like maybe I don't need to leave. Maybe I'm better than I've ever been.

[02:46:35] And I do wonder if the slightly softer box office performance of this film going into the next one which is not finished which is only half shot and currently on hiatus because of the strike. I do wonder if they go

[02:46:47] back to it and go maybe it's time to like put a bow on this for a while. Maybe you're right. Maybe I'm right. We'll see what happens. Can we talk about the strike quickly. Yes I do think it's important to talk about a mic. We've been banking

[02:47:01] episodes up like crazy even mission impossible to Bonnie Scotland going to Edinburgh to do the Edinburgh Fringe Festival with the Baron and the junk dealer and George Lucas talk show play that Connor Ratliff has written in the world of the George

[02:47:15] Lucas talk show or comedy show we do together and also doing a couple of performances of the actual thing. We're only half done on the mini series that comes out after Park which we haven't even announced yet. Who knows. The park episodes were

[02:47:29] done a while ago and even yeah I was set mission possible we did like three weeks ago at this point. Yeah. So none of the other episodes you you will hear for a while now will really address the strike as true and there's just been

[02:47:45] understandably a lot of questioning about like does that affect the podcast at all. And that is because the last time was 1980 maybe. And the 60 was the big strike. Do they have a brief one in a one where powers booth. Yeah. Beginning of all do anything.

[02:48:01] I think it's 1980. So it's been about 43 years to say the industry has changed a lot in the last 43 years is an understatement. They had less podcast back then couple fewer and you'd have the flop house. They did know the flop house the flop house and film

[02:48:17] spotting where the two. But they were the Cinecast at that point. So even the writer's strike the last time WGA went on strike was 2007 2008. And things have changed so radically in that time that I think a lot of the handwriting that people are seeing out in the

[02:48:35] public sphere about what is OK to do or what is not sure is unclear because everything has changed so radically since the last time any of these major. Yeah. Right. Happening on the fly sort of figuring out this stuff. By the way that's a lot of why we

[02:48:51] get so blurred in terms of what is work and what isn't. What do we deserve to be paid for and what do we not and what is promotion what isn't you know we've gone to this weird space where companies basically expect the biggest media companies in

[02:49:07] the world expect all of the people who work on their projects to do free advertising for the project in their own platforms that they've spent decades creating to ostensibly give value to the projects. It's all about the reviews concerned. You know whatever about my

[02:49:24] status as someone who is a member of SAG-AFTRA and hosts a podcast that is about movies. These things are being defined and redefined over and over again. There was an FAQ that came out yesterday. We stay up with these things and read them

[02:49:40] but this is primarily a comedy show of film criticism. What we do here is not even if we are on an episode like today doing an Oppenheimer episode promoting a comedy show. Exactly. And if those lines are blurred that is perhaps. Right. But but there

[02:49:56] does need to be a distinction between the two things and I do think now we were paid by Universal to do this episode right wildly. We're going to retire with the money we made on this episode but we've been very clear that that's a joke

[02:50:12] it's a joke and that's important to remember. It's a joke. And we didn't write it down. We didn't write it pencils firmly on the show. It's a little off the show is wildly unscripted. It is independent. We rarely work in conjunction with any larger entities. Yes we rarely

[02:50:30] even book guests through publicists or specifically to promote specific things. I can think of very few examples. What is at stake what will change because of the strike happening an episode you wouldn't hear is having Benji and Dan on to talk about Detective Pikachu a movie they

[02:50:50] have been doing for years of doing this show. We have done anything like that you can imagine something like that. Right. So like a plug section a thing we often forget to even do will not be happening right now. I mean again we

[02:51:05] recorded a lot of stuff before the strike. Maybe there are plugs there but I don't think there's really any promotion. I don't think so. Like current projects even think of not really what this show is. We don't have a script. But yes we script there. Pencils.

[02:51:22] There are a couple of new release movies that are currently on our spreadsheet for the rest of the year that are directors we've covered in the past who have films that hopefully knock on wood will not get bumped to 2024 and will come out before this year

[02:51:40] wouldn't happen for a couple of months. I would love to believe these strikes are resolved in a way that is fucking beneficial and treated like fucking garbage. Your failure. Yes. Like admit like that you have played this wrong from the beginning. Look there. There

[02:51:57] are a couple CEOs who need to get down on their knees and take a big L. Got to take. That's the moment some L's need to be taken and they do not need to be taken from the artist to make these. Executives love taking

[02:52:08] else one of their favorite things to do. So just go to the fucking public square stand up tall adjust your time and take the biggest fucking L you've ever taken in your life. I'd love to see that. Yes I'm excited to see that. But yes

[02:52:21] for the time being we've read over everything there is nothing about what SAG is defining in terms of what they are encouraging their members to not do during the strike that conflicts with this show. And if there is stuff in there in the language that makes you feel

[02:52:36] like well that sounds like they're describing blank check. A lot of that is because the language of all this stuff is weird and messy and there is so much stuff like podcasts that are explicitly promoting a TV show that's not even part of a

[02:52:46] studio. So there's a lot of stuff that's like the director is on and all that sort of stuff. But you don't say independent baby. Yes. Not even part of a studio. No no. We're part of blank check productions. Yes. Yeah. Which is a registered escort which is

[02:53:02] what. But our name is a little too long so it doesn't fit on the documents and it says blank check production. Oh it sure does. The end in the answer. I mean it's like the fifth film in a long running franchise like in city is the fifth. No.

[02:53:17] The last key the red key. What's that six. It's the red door. That's six though. OK. Indiana Jones. No Indiana Jones in the Dallas. Which you know honestly has made three hundred and fifty ish million dollars worldwide. It's not good. No. But it's not nothing.

[02:53:34] No. It's his red door has made 160 worldwide. It's his red door is fucking clowning on everyone else. Yeah. Elemental is holding really well. I mean it's not like it's actually going to sort of end up being an OK hit for me. I mean if it had done that

[02:53:47] number to begin with it still would have ended up in the bottom three Pixar movies but it's not like it's not an embarrassment. It will end up ahead of Lightyear and ahead of good diners. Obviously a giant hit. What else are people going to

[02:54:01] take their kids to right now. Nothing. That's why it's holding. I mean I know there was a lot of you know hand wringing over if Barbie was appropriate for children teenage Kraken which is a good thing. Rise of the Beast has made four hundred and twenty million

[02:54:15] is also kind of just hanging in there because little boys something to see and no hard feelings has quietly. Yeah correct to 50 to domestic a movie that has really grown on me. We saw that together. I don't know how you feel. The more I think about it the

[02:54:30] more I like it. The Flash has made one billion dollars. Take the billions see you continue that to a million. No Ninja Turtles comes out in this room until the mighty movie enters and just licks up don't forget Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump who's Trump and

[02:54:50] egg is coming out of the talking with kids movies. Oh that's true. Right. But it's a thing that's been talked about. The kids movies are too spaced out and they are generally overperforming. We're going to see lots of kids movies two years from now.

[02:55:03] It's always a reaction to two years. Of course. Sing to was still at the theater when I went. Hey man. They do that sort of thing where they will like do. No it wasn't. Are you joking. No I'm I'm pretty sure I will

[02:55:14] do this thing for like weekend matinees where they like bring back a classic like sing to I'm not even kidding like Regal and AMC will be like Sunday matinees of a classic from the vault. It was so weird. Yeah. He's not. It's playing at the

[02:55:27] look dine in cinemas on 57th Street. I've seen Sing 2 showing up a lot lately. It must have cheap licensing. Wow. Yeah that's wild. Yeah. A movie I saw and could not wrap my head around. Wow. Unlike Ruby Gilman which made perfect sense. I'll check it out.

[02:55:43] I'm excited to watch it like five years from now. Yeah. I think your daughter would love Ruby Gilman. In a couple of years. Right now my daughter loves one movie. Yeah. Moana. Ponyo. I watch it every day. And do you. No joke. And that is why I'm

[02:55:58] specifically saying I think your daughter might like Ruby Gilman. Because water. What we're like. Fish people. It's got a similar vibe. We're going to have to build a little bit of a movie. I'm going to have to introduce. We're still at the stage where it's like a second

[02:56:12] movie will be an interesting concept to her. She's kind of like I got Ponyo though. Like I want Ponyo. Didn't she go through a huge Moana phase? She's watched a lot of Moana songs. She's watching clips. But Moana the movie is a little intense.

[02:56:24] You know it's got Tafiti. Tafiti's kind of scary. Yeah. It's got more talking. Ponyo is just so perfect for a toddler. Sure. Because it's just like it's just about a little toddler. Yeah. Like making a mess and it's about five years. Ruby Gilman's about a nice

[02:56:37] kid who happens to be a teenage Shrek. I have to go home. Rubber hose animation. Their limbs are going like this. It's fun. It's goofy. We've been recording for three hours. Right, Benny? It's about how long the movie Abenheimer is. Yeah, we've finally crested Abenheimer length.

[02:56:52] And so we do yes just you know to underline of course have massive solidarity with the people on strike. Absolutely. Who deserve everything they're asking for and more. Yeah. Truly. And there are craven pigs who should bow to their every demand and apologize for ever putting them

[02:57:08] through anything else. Yeah, it sucks. Look, there are... Nothing that's gonna happen. It's just what should happen. Yeah. I'll say this on mic. There is a joke I have with fellow podcasters who started out in film and television. Yes, you've mentioned this joke. Yeah.

[02:57:26] Thank God we got into the very stable industry of podcasting support our hobby of working in film and television. But that is increasingly what it feels like. Very grateful to all of you for listening to the show and supporting it because it is wild how unsustainable it has

[02:57:38] become to pursue any career in film and television. Yeah. And then these companies, there's never been more of a demand for the things. Yeah. So... Yeah. And also, yeah, come on Hollywood. Like I wrote about this. Do not watch this happen. No. This phenomenon. No. That's making people

[02:57:57] excited to be in movie theaters again and go like should we just like punt everything off the schedule? People voting with their dollars and like treating specific movies as special rather than just sludge coming down a pipeline. Right. Make things feel special again in a way that

[02:58:11] actually compensates the people who work on them. Right. Yeah. Anyway. Thank you all for listening. We'll see you next week with I'm a Cyborg with That's OK with Karen Chi. The great Karen Chi. A lovely episode. First time guest. That's a very goofy episode. She is so great.

[02:58:28] For a deeply weird film. But yeah, back into Park Children's. For I'm a Cyborg. But that's OK. The namesake of our miniseries. Thank you all for listening. Thank you to Marie Barty and film director Barbie for being here. You're welcome. That was film director Barbie. That wasn't me.

[02:58:44] Wow. You're welcome. Was that you or film director Barbie? That was me. OK. Slightly similar voices. What's going on here? Thank you to JJ Birch for enjoying his vacation this week. Seemed like he went to Pitchfork Fest. Yeah. He texted me. He texted me. Him and Nick were

[02:59:02] hanging out. They're being cuties. He texted me some guy at Pitchfork Fest saying about Lightning McQueen. He was really excited. He thought it was the first indie rock song to invoke Lightning McQueen by name. Ka-chow. Thank you to AJ McKee and Alex Barron for our editing.

[02:59:16] Layne Montgomery and The Great American Novel for our theme song Joe Bone and Pat Reynolds for our artwork. We haven't gotten it yet but we assume David will be wearing the Oppenheimer hat. It just feels like that's probably where this goes. Put that on the list.

[02:59:29] Put the hat on me. Put Bing Rameses hat on me for a mission possible. Keep putting hats on that head. They're kind of diametrically opposed and at Bing it's always at an angle and Oppenheimer is straight. Straight. Yes. You can go to BlankCheckPod.com for links to some

[02:59:45] real nerdy shit including our Patreon Blank Check special features where we're currently going through the Oceans movies but also every 10 days we unlock an episode from three years ago and there are a couple that have linked up very directly to things we're talking about. Here's the Mission

[02:59:59] Possible series is about to start being unlocked and the way of the gun episode the one sort of missing Macquarie episode. We don't sound depressed on that episode. Normal. I have a lot of optimism for the future. Definitely not recorded in summer 2020. Yes. Yeah. Absolutely.

[03:00:16] So yeah tune in next week. We'll go back to the park. And as always Christopher Nolan thinks that Oppenheimer is a hero. He's a hero. He's a hero. Oppenheimer is a hero and the bomb was good. That is how to read this movie. Everyone should watch Threads.

[03:00:35] We didn't even talk about Threads.