Paprika with Emily Yoshida

[00:00:01] Blank Check with Griffin and David, Blank Check with Griffin and David, don't know what to say or to expect, but we'll shout it with Blank Check

[00:00:18] Podcasts and dreams are similar. They're areas where the repressed conscious mind escapes.

[00:00:28] There you go.

[00:00:29] Now see, usually I end the sentence with podcast and this time it started.

[00:00:33] Okay.

[00:00:34] But when they say that line in the movie, it felt like, of course, they're talking about the internet.

[00:00:39] Are they?

[00:00:40] You're nodding silently.

[00:00:41] I'm trying to remember the exact line.

[00:00:43] The internet and dreams are similar. They're areas where the repressed conscious mind escapes.

[00:00:47] Um, no, the internet's not like that at all though.

[00:00:50] No.

[00:00:51] The internet is very…

[00:00:52] Chill.

[00:00:53] Chill.

[00:00:54] Chill.

[00:00:55] Normal.

[00:00:56] I would say…

[00:00:57] And regulated.

[00:00:58] It is, um, it is, uh, yeah, the opposite of repression. Whatever that means for you.

[00:01:05] Yeah, it's a 2006 statement.

[00:01:08] The net.

[00:01:10] Right. I mean, in a certain way, I think the statement is still true.

[00:01:14] Yeah, it's all just, you know, it's all out there. We can't control it.

[00:01:19] Right.

[00:01:20] Everyone's mental states colliding with everyone else's, right?

[00:01:23] Yes.

[00:01:24] In ways that we can't predict.

[00:01:25] Yes.

[00:01:26] Good ways.

[00:01:27] Great.

[00:01:28] Major smile.

[00:01:29] The best thing is when people share a dream.

[00:01:32] Hey, major smile.

[00:01:33] I mean, I love letting my subconscious go wild on Elon Musk's internet.

[00:01:37] Yes. He's finally made it… I mean, this is what I love about Elon's internet. If I can just take a moment here.

[00:01:44] Yes, let's talk about Elon Musk.

[00:01:45] One, comedy is now legal again.

[00:01:47] You want to highlight this section for the duration?

[00:01:49] Comedy is now legal again.

[00:01:51] Yes.

[00:01:52] Fuck yeah.

[00:01:53] Fuck yeah.

[00:01:54] And B, my unconscious can finally roam free. You know?

[00:01:58] It was all bottled up before.

[00:02:00] Elon took it off the leash.

[00:02:02] Yeah. Woof woof.

[00:02:03] And my unconscious is making jokes all the time because that's legal again.

[00:02:07] If there's anything I know about you right now, it's that you're funnier and happier online than ever.

[00:02:13] Correct.

[00:02:15] We're laughing.

[00:02:16] Just strolling through the fields, making jokes.

[00:02:19] We're laughing.

[00:02:20] We're laughing. We're having a great time. What is this? Where are we?

[00:02:24] This room, it feels so familiar and yet somehow odd.

[00:02:28] The dimensions are shifting in real time.

[00:02:30] Are we in a DC mini?

[00:02:31] David, we're at the end of a BC mini.

[00:02:34] Wow.

[00:02:35] Look at that.

[00:02:36] Did you just have that in the back pocket the whole time?

[00:02:39] No, no, you just made that up.

[00:02:40] Damn.

[00:02:41] It hit me in real time.

[00:02:42] Your subconscious is full of jokes.

[00:02:45] Because it's legal again.

[00:02:46] Because it's legal again.

[00:02:47] We are sadly at the end of a BC mini.

[00:02:50] Why do I say sadly? It's been a great run, but unfortunately this is a career that ended far too soon.

[00:02:56] Yes, true.

[00:02:57] This is the final film of Satoshi Kon who we've been covering on this podcast.

[00:03:01] This podcast Blank Check with Griffin and David.

[00:03:03] I'm Griffin.

[00:03:04] I'm David.

[00:03:05] It's a podcast about filmographies, directors who have massive success early on in their careers

[00:03:09] and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want.

[00:03:13] And sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they parade, maybe.

[00:03:18] Sure.

[00:03:20] Led by the refrigerator in the mailbox.

[00:03:22] It's another thing that feels like the internet is that parade.

[00:03:26] Just cacophony of products.

[00:03:30] Yes, products and memes and half-remembered clips.

[00:03:36] This has been a miniseries on the films of Satoshi Kon, as you said,

[00:03:39] and this is sadly his final film he ever made.

[00:03:41] Do you want to say the name of it?

[00:03:43] Well, the name of this BC mini has been Paprikaast.

[00:03:47] Podprecast.

[00:03:48] Podprecast.

[00:03:49] Are you kidding me?

[00:03:50] Of course.

[00:03:51] Podprecast. I fucked it up, but Podprecast.

[00:03:53] He always forgets. That's why I looked at him.

[00:03:56] And today we're talking about paprika.

[00:03:59] That's right.

[00:04:00] That's right.

[00:04:01] Podpreca. Podpreca.

[00:04:03] And who is here with us in studio?

[00:04:05] This is what I want to talk about.

[00:04:08] But the mother of blankies herself.

[00:04:09] She's here!

[00:04:10] Hello my children. Hi.

[00:04:13] This is FX's Shogun from the FX Shogun podcast.

[00:04:17] That's right.

[00:04:19] Yeah, we see you starting a rival podcast.

[00:04:22] Yeah, I mean, clearly.

[00:04:24] I'm steering the ship there.

[00:04:26] Knocking us way down the charts.

[00:04:27] Right into yours.

[00:04:30] David, you had a point you wanted to make right before we started recording.

[00:04:34] Emily Yoshida is here.

[00:04:36] The great Emily Yoshida.

[00:04:37] It's me. It's Emily Yoshida. Hi.

[00:04:38] When do you think was Emily's last in-person episode with us?

[00:04:42] Griffin Neumann, answer please.

[00:04:44] Was it Mad Max Fury Road?

[00:04:45] That's correct!

[00:04:47] Oh no, that's true!

[00:04:48] Mad Max Fury Road.

[00:04:49] And that was literally weeks before COVID.

[00:04:51] I was here February of 2020.

[00:04:54] That's correct. It was when you were staying with me.

[00:04:56] You were visiting town.

[00:04:57] It was recorded in February.

[00:04:59] There was a giant audio boom problem.

[00:05:01] So we lost like 40 minutes of that episode.

[00:05:04] That was a real nightmare for me.

[00:05:06] That was also when I introduced C-genes, of course.

[00:05:10] I forgot about that.

[00:05:12] And that made it? We didn't lose that?

[00:05:14] That's what caused the other things to go away.

[00:05:17] Thankfully, we were able to hold on to that part of the episode.

[00:05:20] Unfortunately, Morton Joe was never mentioned once in the episode.

[00:05:23] We lost all of that, but C-genes made the cut.

[00:05:26] And can you name Emily's episode since then?

[00:05:30] Yeah, I think I can.

[00:05:31] Okay, well then. Then I won't even speak on it anymore.

[00:05:33] I mean, look, we established some rules on this show in general.

[00:05:37] People can't be on C-…

[00:05:40] Pod rules!

[00:05:43] On this podcast, try to not have the same guest appear in consecutive series.

[00:05:48] Yeah, it's kind of like an unwritten sort of baseball rule, right?

[00:05:51] Let alone appear twice on the same series.

[00:05:54] Emily is the mother of Lanky.

[00:05:56] I'm breaking all the rules.

[00:05:58] So on that same series, main feed, she also did Babe on Patreon.

[00:06:03] She did.

[00:06:04] One of my favorites, honestly, that we've ever recorded.

[00:06:07] That was early, early COVID too.

[00:06:09] Yeah, it was my first Zoom one I think I ever did.

[00:06:12] Correct?

[00:06:13] Yeah, that was an early Zoom for us as well.

[00:06:16] And then we did a very normal episode.

[00:06:18] I'm not going to go in order here.

[00:06:20] Dark Star.

[00:06:22] Yeah, okay, so that one at least Ben was with Emily.

[00:06:24] That was kind of technically half in person.

[00:06:27] Ben made a pilgrimage to Kasa Yoshida.

[00:06:29] But there was one in between.

[00:06:30] The extremely normal one was when I downed an entire bottle of wine

[00:06:34] during the Marwen record because I couldn't believe you guys liked it.

[00:06:37] Kind of like that movie.

[00:06:39] It made me feel like I was going insane.

[00:06:41] I was also drinking an entire bottle of wine.

[00:06:44] But I was coming at it, I guess, from a different angle.

[00:06:46] I was drinking the bottle of wine because I liked it so much.

[00:06:49] It was celebratory, yes.

[00:06:52] Well, I was drinking too apparently.

[00:06:54] I think we were all pretty drunk on the Marwen episode,

[00:06:57] which is why it was so fun.

[00:06:58] Great episode probably.

[00:07:00] November, December.

[00:07:02] I was sitting on the floor of my mom's spare room in North Carolina.

[00:07:07] Like deep, deep holiday season COVID, holiday season 2020.

[00:07:11] My wife would have been like eight months pregnant.

[00:07:13] It was like 10 at night.

[00:07:15] Super normal.

[00:07:17] Dark Star though.

[00:07:19] And then, can you remember the other two?

[00:07:21] Two others.

[00:07:23] Well, Handmaiden was the most recent.

[00:07:25] And the one in between would be...

[00:07:26] Emily made nobody mad with her takes on this episode.

[00:07:29] I was really, yeah, chill.

[00:07:31] Oh, oh, the beach.

[00:07:33] Everybody liked everything I had to say on the beach episode.

[00:07:36] Everybody had really nice things to say about me personally.

[00:07:40] Right, right.

[00:07:42] What's important is when people disagree with you,

[00:07:44] they never make it personal.

[00:07:46] The internet dreams are similar.

[00:07:48] They attack you in your most sensitive spots.

[00:07:50] So Emily's on here to say that paprika's a big bag of shit.

[00:07:53] It'd be funny if you came on and were like,

[00:07:54] you guys, paprika?

[00:07:56] I mean, paprika the character.

[00:07:58] Like, paprika is baby and not all that, actually.

[00:08:02] Wow.

[00:08:04] Coming in hot.

[00:08:06] Very hot.

[00:08:08] Love you guys.

[00:08:10] Not you. I'm talking to the blankies.

[00:08:12] I know you don't love me.

[00:08:14] You have no love for me.

[00:08:16] Here you are to talk about paprika.

[00:08:20] Sort of his opus.

[00:08:22] We've been discussing this.

[00:08:24] Even if it's not your favorite of his movies.

[00:08:26] I don't know.

[00:08:28] I actually don't really know what my favorite is,

[00:08:30] having just watched all of them in preparation for this one.

[00:08:34] I mean, there's only four of them.

[00:08:36] There are only four.

[00:08:38] I think that in a way that maybe will become thematically relevant

[00:08:43] in our discussion down the line,

[00:08:45] I think that between Perfect Blue and Paprika,

[00:08:48] you kind of have a balance of everything that's great about Satoshi Kon.

[00:08:52] That's right.

[00:08:54] And I think this one has some of that.

[00:08:57] It kind of reminds me a bit,

[00:08:59] especially as like a quote unquote last film,

[00:09:01] although we can't say that officially on the record yet.

[00:09:03] It does sort of remind me of Boy in the Heron

[00:09:06] as Miyazaki's quote unquote final film.

[00:09:09] Just being kind of like an unbound unleashing of stuff.

[00:09:14] Although I think that Paprika is for all its messiness

[00:09:17] and wildness is still a pretty like conveniently tidy

[00:09:23] final statement on what he's up to,

[00:09:27] what he's interested in.

[00:09:29] Meaningfully or not, like whether he meant to or not.

[00:09:31] Yeah. It's actually like, I mean that final scene,

[00:09:33] which we'll get to is sort of like you can't really imagine

[00:09:35] a more perfect note to end on for an incredible career.

[00:09:39] That's what's wild is when,

[00:09:41] I mean, what the second to last shot of this movie

[00:09:44] is the pan across the marquee.

[00:09:47] His short but illustrious filmography.

[00:09:50] Right. And like watching this in 06 or 07 or whatever,

[00:09:53] you're like, okay, that's, is that too cute?

[00:09:55] And then when this is his last movie,

[00:09:57] you're like, that is profound.

[00:09:59] It is profound that this movie ends with him

[00:10:01] showing his career up until this point

[00:10:03] and then the character buying a ticket.

[00:10:05] I mean, to be fair, he might have kind of known.

[00:10:08] Like he had had health issues up until this point.

[00:10:11] Like it was, was it pancreatic cancer?

[00:10:14] Yeah. I mean, which really hits you hard and fast.

[00:10:17] But he had like many animation directors

[00:10:21] and people who work in the field,

[00:10:23] his health was pretty abysmal.

[00:10:25] So I think he might have known that.

[00:10:28] I mean, I was saying this on a recent episode

[00:10:30] because the bout of pancreatic cancer

[00:10:34] that he finally came to,

[00:10:37] there was three months between diagnosis and death.

[00:10:39] Like that was pretty speedy.

[00:10:41] But as you said, he had other issues

[00:10:43] up until that point in time.

[00:10:45] It is hard not to look back at his entire career

[00:10:47] through the prism of,

[00:10:49] was this a guy who knew that he wasn't going to have

[00:10:51] a lot of room to work?

[00:10:53] You look at how quickly he worked

[00:10:55] and how like every film has the energy of,

[00:10:59] I need this to work if this is the only film

[00:11:01] I ever get to make my life.

[00:11:03] Like every movie he makes has the energy of

[00:11:05] I'm making this like this my final statement.

[00:11:07] And this is like everything is in this.

[00:11:09] I would say Tokyo Godfathers is maybe the exception.

[00:11:13] But like, yeah, Millennium Actress and Paprika feel,

[00:11:17] I would say like Millennium Actress feels

[00:11:21] kind of like the lost highway to Paprika's Mulholland Drive.

[00:11:25] If you get my meaning.

[00:11:27] Not to preview your guys' March Madness.

[00:11:31] It's just one March Madness.

[00:11:33] Which is great.

[00:11:35] As of yesterday.

[00:11:37] Let's be clear, we're happy about it.

[00:11:39] I mean, I don't know if people can read it.

[00:11:41] You guys are going to be talking about so many dreams

[00:11:43] within the next year.

[00:11:45] This is the problem.

[00:11:47] He's saying I'm happy about it.

[00:11:49] Everyone's going to go like,

[00:11:51] he sounded really angry when he said that.

[00:11:53] Good outcome. We're happy.

[00:11:55] It's fine.

[00:11:57] Don't say it that way because now they're actually going to.

[00:11:59] Has David ever said that's fine in another tone?

[00:12:01] In a tone that sounds more happy?

[00:12:03] I'm not mad.

[00:12:05] I love David Lynch.

[00:12:07] I love him more than you.

[00:12:09] He's the roof right now, David.

[00:12:11] David, you got to.

[00:12:13] Here's the thing about David Lynch.

[00:12:15] You know, when someone wins our March Madness.

[00:12:17] Oh, Amazon.com, Blu-ray.com.

[00:12:20] Time for me to search for what discs I need to buy.

[00:12:23] I fucking own them all.

[00:12:25] I just need to buy like one.

[00:12:27] Twin Peaks is the one thing where I'm like,

[00:12:29] do I invest in a set?

[00:12:31] That's a tricky choice.

[00:12:33] I splurged on the super limited one.

[00:12:36] You got the really fancy one.

[00:12:37] Do you want that?

[00:12:39] I used to own the original series on...

[00:12:42] VHS one.

[00:12:44] Not on VHS, I had it on DVD.

[00:12:47] I'm guessing it was the Gold Bucks.

[00:12:49] Yeah, with the kind of green and blue spines.

[00:12:51] It had like a sort of slip case.

[00:12:53] But those were British.

[00:12:55] Wait, so that wasn't the Gold Bucks.

[00:12:57] That was the original.

[00:12:59] It was pre-Gold Bucks.

[00:13:01] Pre-season three.

[00:13:03] It was when Twin Peaks was just, you know,

[00:13:05] this two season thing.

[00:13:07] But I'm wondering about that.

[00:13:09] Because I'd like something.

[00:13:11] I'm just wondering if I need to splurge on the thing you got,

[00:13:13] or get the slightly less...

[00:13:15] The television collection.

[00:13:17] Right, the sort of $100 kind of...

[00:13:19] Just spend $100.

[00:13:21] He spent like $300.

[00:13:23] I didn't spend that much.

[00:13:25] I got a discount on eBay.

[00:13:27] I did some aggressive best offers.

[00:13:29] I mean, you've got to keep David Lynch in cigarettes.

[00:13:31] You've got to pay up.

[00:13:33] Yes, I agree.

[00:13:35] Keep him in cigarettes.

[00:13:37] No, we were texting with...

[00:13:39] We have a group text now

[00:13:41] with our buddies Sean Fennessey and Tim Simons

[00:13:43] called News and Deals.

[00:13:45] That is like the big one.

[00:13:47] That is basically just us sharing...

[00:13:49] Oh, did you see a Shout Factory's having a sale?

[00:13:51] Every time we send a text in there,

[00:13:53] I have had one less sex in my life, right?

[00:13:57] My amount of times having had sex goes down.

[00:14:00] You have a photo of your daughter

[00:14:02] that Back to the Future style is starting to fade.

[00:14:04] Never!

[00:14:06] But yes, it's like all just us

[00:14:08] posting announcements of discs

[00:14:10] and sales of discs.

[00:14:12] And we texted the day before Marshmadness ended.

[00:14:14] I was like, look, either outcome right now

[00:14:16] between Spike and Lynch,

[00:14:18] I'm excited that tomorrow

[00:14:20] I get to order a bunch of Blu-rays.

[00:14:22] Although if Spike had won, it would have been...

[00:14:24] We discussed a lot,

[00:14:26] but he's got a lot of missing discs.

[00:14:28] The man needs...

[00:14:30] His catalog needs to be better served.

[00:14:32] Girl 6 only available on Blu-ray in Japan.

[00:14:35] What?

[00:14:37] She Hate Me only in France.

[00:14:39] Really?

[00:14:41] Four of them have gotten no release post DVD.

[00:14:43] There's probably some weird French reason for that too.

[00:14:45] Oh, yes, he's very good.

[00:14:47] He's been to the Lesbians.

[00:14:49] This film has been cancelled.

[00:14:52] He's very good.

[00:14:54] Get on the bus, you can't buy...

[00:14:56] The French are becoming Russian?

[00:14:58] Dracula-esque in my...

[00:15:00] Wait, which one?

[00:15:02] She's gotta have it, get on the bus.

[00:15:03] She's gotta have it as the one that's kind of weird.

[00:15:05] Because that's obviously a very self-written film.

[00:15:07] And they did the Netflix series and everything.

[00:15:09] Is it not streaming on Netflix?

[00:15:11] I thought it was on Netflix.

[00:15:13] It's probably streaming somewhere.

[00:15:15] I don't know if it still is.

[00:15:17] But why isn't there a very nice...

[00:15:19] I agree. I think Criterion has said they're working on that one.

[00:15:21] Weirdly, even though Spike longer career,

[00:15:23] more missing films,

[00:15:25] I think I own more Spike discs.

[00:15:27] Lynch is going to be a big shopping spree for me.

[00:15:29] Lynch isn't so much your fellow, but maybe...

[00:15:31] But I like him and I'm excited to do the series.

[00:15:33] You guys are so excited.

[00:15:35] We are!

[00:15:37] It's been a long month.

[00:15:39] It's been kind of a long month.

[00:15:41] I mean, when is March not just a blast for you guys?

[00:15:44] True.

[00:15:46] Yeah, but this is better than some marches, I would say.

[00:15:48] Yeah, I remember.

[00:15:50] We've had some pretty rough marches.

[00:15:52] Ben's nodding.

[00:15:54] But it is true that between Cone and Lynch in the same year,

[00:15:56] this is a very dreamy...

[00:15:58] Very dreamy year.

[00:16:00] Subconscious year for Blank Chat.

[00:16:01] You were, the other day...

[00:16:03] I like this.

[00:16:05] 2024, you're the dream.

[00:16:07] Yeah.

[00:16:09] Hopefully it ends with the biggest dream of all,

[00:16:11] the return of Donald Trump to the White House.

[00:16:13] What's that?

[00:16:15] What's that?

[00:16:17] Bah, bah, bah, bah, bah, bah!

[00:16:19] Wow! Who's getting political now and who's pissed off at who?

[00:16:21] Wow, the table is really turned.

[00:16:23] Anytime I have a thought like that,

[00:16:25] I should then cut in refrigerators doing a parade.

[00:16:27] Yeah, yeah.

[00:16:28] Can I do my impression of David on November 7th?

[00:16:30] It's fine.

[00:16:32] Yeah, that's me.

[00:16:34] Oh my God.

[00:16:36] What are you going to do?

[00:16:38] What were you going to say, Griffin?

[00:16:40] I was going to say, the other day you texted,

[00:16:42] you were watching Kurosawa's Dreams.

[00:16:44] Yeah.

[00:16:46] And you said every director should make one of these.

[00:16:48] I kind of just like the idea of if a director's hitting

[00:16:50] their 70s or 80s,

[00:16:52] Hollywood, as was the case there,

[00:16:54] famous directors like Scorsese and George Lucas

[00:16:56] should just be like,

[00:16:58] hey, here's some money.

[00:17:00] Go make a movie about some dreams you've been having

[00:17:02] just as a kind of like, you know, peace out.

[00:17:05] This is the movie that's literally about dreams

[00:17:07] and was kind of his passion,

[00:17:09] his dream project for so long.

[00:17:11] For 10 years he spent trying to get together.

[00:17:13] I just do think it's interesting

[00:17:15] that in between Tokyo Godfathers and this,

[00:17:17] the thing he had been aiming to finally get made,

[00:17:20] he does Paranoia Agent,

[00:17:22] which you could argue is kind of his dreams.

[00:17:25] Like that is his drafts for the movie.

[00:17:28] But he was like, I want to make it a little bit older.

[00:17:30] Oh, sure.

[00:17:32] He was just like, let me do a TV series

[00:17:34] about all my other...

[00:17:36] Kurosawa's dreams is what you mean.

[00:17:38] His dreams.

[00:17:40] This is the dreams movie.

[00:17:42] But at 45, he did his show where he was like,

[00:17:44] here's every other idea I have.

[00:17:46] Yeah.

[00:17:48] But luckily it was bound together by a pretty,

[00:17:50] like a great genre mystery engine

[00:17:52] so that it feels like something that,

[00:17:54] you know, because he was still like,

[00:17:56] I wanted to do something that had

[00:17:58] like a lot of depth to it.

[00:18:00] Was too disciplined a storyteller

[00:18:02] to ever be self-indulgent?

[00:18:04] Yeah.

[00:18:06] This actually feels like the most self-indulgent,

[00:18:08] at least like visually and stylistically

[00:18:10] and feels less beholden to,

[00:18:12] well, I got to make it a show.

[00:18:14] Sure.

[00:18:16] But yeah, I mean, it's fun.

[00:18:18] Like I do agree, though,

[00:18:20] that everybody should have one of those,

[00:18:22] especially once they've kind of like put in their time

[00:18:24] because like, what are you doing out here

[00:18:26] at age 70 trying to be like,

[00:18:28] you know, everybody knows you're good for it.

[00:18:30] Like we just want to see the inside

[00:18:32] of your mind at that point.

[00:18:34] This is my fucking killers of the flower moon argument

[00:18:36] where anyone who's like,

[00:18:38] Marnie could have used a pair of scissors.

[00:18:40] I'm like, he's giving us everything.

[00:18:42] He can do whatever he wants.

[00:18:44] Anyone complaining about his films.

[00:18:46] He can tell that story any way he wants to.

[00:18:48] Yeah.

[00:18:50] I really am like, what on earth?

[00:18:52] Whatever.

[00:18:54] I mean, the movie's good.

[00:18:56] I don't even love that movie,

[00:18:58] but I just, I just, I do.

[00:19:00] With trailers?

[00:19:02] Not in a supernatural way.

[00:19:04] I saw it without trailers as well.

[00:19:06] In a not in a supernatural way,

[00:19:08] there is that thing that's a little bit eerie

[00:19:10] about him just like being like,

[00:19:12] I got to get all of this out of my system

[00:19:14] before I turn 50.

[00:19:16] Yeah.

[00:19:18] Paprika.

[00:19:19] The film is called Paprika.

[00:19:21] I feel like when I have been telling people

[00:19:23] we are doing this director and they are not

[00:19:25] like, you know, gigantic movie nerds,

[00:19:26] like, oh, he made this film,

[00:19:28] he made this one, he made this one,

[00:19:30] he made a movie called Paprika.

[00:19:32] And they're like, oh, I remember Paprika.

[00:19:34] Yeah.

[00:19:35] This is maybe the movie that crossed over

[00:19:37] the most at least initially.

[00:19:39] I mean, it got a theatrical release,

[00:19:41] which is when I saw it for the first time.

[00:19:43] They all got theatrical releases.

[00:19:45] In America, yes.

[00:19:47] Yes.

[00:19:48] Mostly from Sony.

[00:19:50] Yes.

[00:19:52] Usually, well, no, Millennium Actress

[00:19:54] was delayed by a couple of years.

[00:19:56] No, six months after it came out in Japan.

[00:19:58] Right.

[00:19:59] This got a summer 07 release.

[00:20:01] It was duking it out at the box office

[00:20:03] against Shrek the third.

[00:20:05] Oh my God.

[00:20:07] Well, it's not going to hit the box office.

[00:20:09] I'm sorry.

[00:20:10] I'm sorry.

[00:20:12] Jesus fucking hell.

[00:20:14] I mean, it had the most...

[00:20:16] I mean, he just got number two if you want

[00:20:18] to give him a ding.

[00:20:20] Give me a quick ding.

[00:20:22] It had the biggest gross of any of his films

[00:20:24] stateside, but still made under a million

[00:20:26] dollars.

[00:20:28] It was a big hit for Sony and they kind of

[00:20:30] kept it in circulation on streaming

[00:20:32] and on video.

[00:20:33] Right.

[00:20:35] And then it was remade better by

[00:20:37] Christopher Nolan.

[00:20:39] So like, you know, that helped its reputation.

[00:20:41] Anyway, look, I'm joking.

[00:20:43] That was a joke.

[00:20:45] Every part of the statement was a joke.

[00:20:47] We're all joking here.

[00:20:51] We're all joking and laughing here.

[00:20:53] I'm going to open the dossier.

[00:20:55] Fun!

[00:20:56] 2024, year of funny dreams.

[00:20:58] JP.

[00:21:00] My favorite website.

[00:21:02] And my favorite bar.

[00:21:04] Yes, we'll talk about that later, of course.

[00:21:06] From January 1991 to June 1993,

[00:21:08] the Japanese edition of Marie Claire

[00:21:10] published four installments of an

[00:21:12] avant-garde novelist's latest work.

[00:21:14] Yasutaka Tsutsui.

[00:21:16] Tsutsui.

[00:21:18] Tsutsui.

[00:21:20] His science fiction story, Paprika.

[00:21:23] I love it was Marie Claire.

[00:21:25] I didn't know that.

[00:21:26] Isn't that funny?

[00:21:28] That's why I just wanted to like, it's so funny.

[00:21:30] This was serialized in Marie Claire.

[00:21:32] It was very popular.

[00:21:34] It was like the bonfire of the vanities of Japan.

[00:21:36] He did not know if it was going to go over well.

[00:21:39] Okay.

[00:21:41] But it was a huge hit and he considered it

[00:21:43] to be his defining novel.

[00:21:45] The summation of my career in terms of both

[00:21:47] entertainment and psychoanalysis, he said.

[00:21:49] Okay.

[00:21:51] So lots of people wanted to make it into a movie.

[00:21:53] There was a manga released in 95,

[00:21:54] produced in 95 but not released until 03.

[00:21:56] Doesn't come out.

[00:21:58] I have never seen what that looks like.

[00:22:00] I don't know if you have, Emily.

[00:22:02] I think that's a more literal adaptation.

[00:22:05] Sure.

[00:22:07] A live-action version was in pre-production

[00:22:09] but was shut down due to budget concerns.

[00:22:12] But Satoshi Kon always wanted to make it.

[00:22:15] Yes.

[00:22:17] After he releases Perfect Blue,

[00:22:19] he's like, well, that story was a huge influence on me.

[00:22:22] I read a lot of books about it.

[00:22:24] I read a lot of that guy's books when I was in my early 20s.

[00:22:27] So Rex Entertainment, the company that had given him money

[00:22:30] for Perfect Blue, goes under and

[00:22:33] he's kind of been trying to get them to get their rights

[00:22:37] or whatever but when they go under it kind of goes away

[00:22:40] and so he goes off and he makes many other things.

[00:22:43] He makes Millennium Actress, he makes Tokyo Godfathers,

[00:22:45] he makes Paranoia Agent.

[00:22:47] And the thing with Satoshi Kon, which we've talked about

[00:22:49] already before but is particularly unusual

[00:22:50] for animation, is he is a guy who kept his budgets small enough.

[00:22:56] Like every time he had a film that exceeded expectations

[00:22:59] a little bit, he'd let it grow by like 10%.

[00:23:02] I think so, yeah.

[00:23:04] And so the return on his movies was always solid enough

[00:23:07] that he could get another movie off the ground quickly.

[00:23:10] In 2003, he's promoting Paranoia Agent

[00:23:13] and Animation Magazine asks him to have a conversation

[00:23:17] with Tsutsui.

[00:23:18] Kon says this meeting was faded.

[00:23:21] F-A-T-E-D, you know.

[00:23:23] You mean they were totally faded?

[00:23:25] Yeah, and they were totally faded.

[00:23:27] They were zonked.

[00:23:29] And he's like, hey, I saw Millennium Actress,

[00:23:32] I love those dream sequences, you could totally do it for Prequel.

[00:23:35] He's very encouraging of this

[00:23:37] and that kind of sets the ball rolling.

[00:23:40] Kon's like, fine, I'm gonna start working on it right now.

[00:23:42] They start developing it while he's still in production

[00:23:45] on Paranoia Agent and

[00:23:46] let's see, right, Perfect Blue.

[00:23:49] Kon had also adapted a novel but was like,

[00:23:51] I never really read it, but Paprika, he's like,

[00:23:53] this is a huge influence on me.

[00:23:55] Perfect Blue is kind of like a Colonel Blimp adaptation.

[00:23:58] Right. You love to call things a Colonel Blimp adaptation.

[00:24:01] Because it's the weirdest thing ever.

[00:24:03] I mean, that's the most extreme example

[00:24:05] of what I'm talking about.

[00:24:07] But yes, this was a true adaptation,

[00:24:09] but he also did do a lot of work

[00:24:11] to transform it away from the book.

[00:24:13] Now, Emily, you've read at least most of this book?

[00:24:14] I read about half of it.

[00:24:16] You cracked it open for the pod.

[00:24:18] I was trying to finish it in time for the pod

[00:24:20] and I didn't get through it, but I mean,

[00:24:22] the thing that sort of mostly surprised me about it

[00:24:24] was how, I guess if we don't want to get into it,

[00:24:28] we don't have to get into it,

[00:24:30] but how much, you know,

[00:24:32] people love the accusation against Nolan

[00:24:35] for Inception, you know, lifting a lot from Paprika the film.

[00:24:38] We do have to talk about it.

[00:24:40] I was sort of stunned at how much more

[00:24:42] it seemed like he had lifted it.

[00:24:44] He lifted from the novel itself.

[00:24:46] Just in terms of what the plot is,

[00:24:50] like, the plot is more concerned

[00:24:52] with kind of a corporate espionage type thing.

[00:24:55] It's less about trying to plant an idea,

[00:24:59] and somebody said at least as far as I've gotten,

[00:25:01] and it's more about like trying to protect somebody.

[00:25:04] It's more the, like, somebody's kind of under fire

[00:25:07] for his company because he's got some ideas.

[00:25:10] He's got some dangerous ideas.

[00:25:11] And that sort of is what's in place

[00:25:15] of the Konakawa story, the detective story.

[00:25:18] But I don't know.

[00:25:21] I'm into it so far.

[00:25:23] I got to finish it, but it definitely

[00:25:25] is not hitting the film themes

[00:25:28] as much as the film is, obviously.

[00:25:32] But it still has a lot.

[00:25:34] Like, there are sequences.

[00:25:36] The whole, like, Konakawa,

[00:25:38] like how he goes through all the different genres

[00:25:39] and that's very much intact,

[00:25:41] and that's lifted straight from the book.

[00:25:43] Yeah, but you definitely see how

[00:25:47] Kon puts his own, like, prioritizes

[00:25:50] his own interests, which at this point

[00:25:52] we really know what they are.

[00:25:54] Like, we know what he's interested in,

[00:25:56] and so seeing those overlaid onto the very, like,

[00:25:58] sturdy genre structure of the novel

[00:26:01] is really fun.

[00:26:03] Like, he's kind of pirouetting all over

[00:26:05] the kind of more procedural structure of the book.

[00:26:09] What's your favorite kind of adaptation?

[00:26:11] Which is a person makes a work

[00:26:14] about what the original work kind of means to them.

[00:26:17] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Same.

[00:26:19] Yeah, that's how I...

[00:26:21] If you're gonna do it, why do a one-to-one?

[00:26:23] Like, show us how it makes you feel.

[00:26:25] Which I think this is just like

[00:26:27] a master class of that.

[00:26:29] The parade, Kon says,

[00:26:31] is his biggest invention.

[00:26:33] Yeah.

[00:26:35] Where he came up with that essentially

[00:26:36] desire to try and represent

[00:26:38] what the book is doing

[00:26:40] with something, like, you know,

[00:26:42] entirely visual.

[00:26:44] It's also like an economy.

[00:26:46] Overflowing reality.

[00:26:48] It's kind of also an act of economy, I think,

[00:26:50] on its part because there's not one big shared

[00:26:52] sort of dream, hallucination, fantasy thing,

[00:26:55] and it's kind of all different and disparate

[00:26:57] for different people.

[00:26:59] It's more also supposed to be, like,

[00:27:01] a contagious sort of

[00:27:03] schizophrenia that's infecting everybody.

[00:27:06] And so that's not really...

[00:27:08] We don't really see the inside of that.

[00:27:10] So I think it just helps to visually convey,

[00:27:12] okay, this is what the madness is,

[00:27:14] and less assign an actual diagnosis to it,

[00:27:17] but just to be like,

[00:27:19] this is what everybody is sort of...

[00:27:21] A race-incompulsive thought.

[00:27:23] Yeah.

[00:27:25] But it also, I mean,

[00:27:27] it's the thing that's always heard about,

[00:27:29] like, well, we'll talk about this,

[00:27:31] but film is a very dreamlike medium.

[00:27:34] There's a reason people have made

[00:27:36] great movies about dreams,

[00:27:38] although a lot of terrible movies

[00:27:40] about dreams have been made,

[00:27:42] but the good ones feel kind of transcendent.

[00:27:44] That's a really bad one, though.

[00:27:46] That's actually a good question.

[00:27:48] Do you not want to say?

[00:27:50] I don't think you'd like it if I said.

[00:27:52] Don't just say Inception.

[00:27:54] Say something else.

[00:27:56] Sorry, I don't have another answer.

[00:27:58] No, no, but come on, come on.

[00:28:00] I'm serious.

[00:28:02] What are some other movies about dreams

[00:28:04] that you would like to see come?

[00:28:06] That's technically a heaven movie

[00:28:08] or an afterlife movie.

[00:28:10] I'm talking about movies

[00:28:12] where it's like, let's do it.

[00:28:14] We're going to set a movie

[00:28:16] in the dream world.

[00:28:18] I am not a big fan of dream scenario.

[00:28:20] No.

[00:28:22] The dreams were kind of fun in that.

[00:28:24] You kind of wanted more of those.

[00:28:26] Yeah.

[00:28:28] I mostly like dream movies.

[00:28:30] I like Nightmare on Elm Street

[00:28:32] as a universe.

[00:28:34] I like Life.

[00:28:36] That's a dreamy movie.

[00:28:38] You know what I've never seen in dreams?

[00:28:40] The serial killer movie from the 90s.

[00:28:42] Oh, I've never seen that either.

[00:28:44] The Cell I am a defender of.

[00:28:46] That was not well received at the time.

[00:28:48] Do we count Eternal Sunshine

[00:28:50] as a dream movie?

[00:28:52] Sure.

[00:28:53] Anything where you're in the mental,

[00:28:55] someone's brain space.

[00:28:57] I know that's more about memories.

[00:28:59] Yeah, because I wouldn't even think

[00:29:01] of The Cell as being a dream movie necessarily.

[00:29:04] I think you're in a conscious.

[00:29:06] But still, anything where it's like

[00:29:08] someone's putting on a rig

[00:29:10] and is like, I'm going in his brain.

[00:29:12] That's a robust sub-genre.

[00:29:14] I'm on dream movies, Wikipedia,

[00:29:16] Waking Life.

[00:29:18] Yeah, I said Waking Life.

[00:29:20] Vanilla Sky.

[00:29:22] I'm sorry.

[00:29:23] Vanilla Sky.

[00:29:25] Thank you for correcting me.

[00:29:27] Vanilla Sky counts.

[00:29:29] The best dream movie of all time

[00:29:31] last night in Soho, obviously

[00:29:32] I forgot about that one.

[00:29:34] Yeah, when she sleeps,

[00:29:36] she is the other lady.

[00:29:38] What about the, I think,

[00:29:40] short-lived NBC series Awake?

[00:29:42] There was Awake, that's true.

[00:29:44] There was Dream On on HBO.

[00:29:46] That had dreams, I think.

[00:29:48] Anyway, look.

[00:29:50] It kind of is a stinker

[00:29:52] stinker-filled genre, I gotta say.

[00:29:54] Weird.

[00:29:56] Several David Lynch films included on that.

[00:29:58] Wait, what?

[00:30:00] No, that guy's firmly planted on the ground.

[00:30:02] Well, he makes dreams.

[00:30:04] He does make them in bottles.

[00:30:06] He is a dream worker.

[00:30:08] Can I tell you? I don't remember.

[00:30:10] He takes some fuzzy wumples.

[00:30:12] Okay, well, do you remember just like

[00:30:14] feeling really high energy watching a movie?

[00:30:16] Just like, you know, electricity course.

[00:30:18] That was probably when you were watching

[00:30:20] Steven Spielberg's The BFG.

[00:30:22] One of the most energetic movies ever made.

[00:30:24] It was sort of like a manic episode.

[00:30:26] Yeah.

[00:30:28] Okay.

[00:30:30] Oh, the bartenders are played by

[00:30:32] Katsui, right?

[00:30:34] Yes.

[00:30:36] I don't think I knew that.

[00:30:38] I just found out.

[00:30:40] That's cool.

[00:30:42] Apart from that, he wasn't really involved.

[00:30:44] He was like, you do whatever you want to do.

[00:30:46] Make your version.

[00:30:48] Conan's kind of shaking up his style a little bit, right?

[00:30:50] He had been working, I feel like,

[00:30:52] in more, like, his characters are more realistic.

[00:30:54] Sure.

[00:30:56] Here, his character is a little more exaggerated.

[00:30:58] Some of the characters are far more

[00:31:00] kind of caricatured.

[00:31:02] I'm gonna read these very, very,

[00:31:04] very long quotes, which I'm not mad at JJ

[00:31:06] about at all.

[00:31:08] But I am not going to just like read aloud

[00:31:10] for 20 minutes.

[00:31:12] Can we do a quick it's fine check to see how you really feel?

[00:31:14] It's fine.

[00:31:16] Oh, wow.

[00:31:18] No, it's fine!

[00:31:20] It's fine!

[00:31:22] Anyway, but I feel like the most important thing

[00:31:24] is when this movie comes out, he's like

[00:31:26] almost famous in Japan, right?

[00:31:28] Sure.

[00:31:30] Like, he's gone from

[00:31:32] kind of like major, he's approaching

[00:31:34] like major artiste status.

[00:31:36] Which is pretty cool.

[00:31:38] But then, of course, it's very sad

[00:31:40] that this is the final movie.

[00:31:42] He's never done drugs.

[00:31:44] Wow.

[00:31:46] They all say that.

[00:31:48] This raises the obvious question, JJ says,

[00:31:50] and I think he's right.

[00:31:52] Well, then what the hell was he smoking

[00:31:54] and can I get some?

[00:31:56] Wait a second.

[00:31:58] JJ, I have an answer for you.

[00:32:00] What he was smoking is your fired...

[00:32:02] To be clear, JJ wrote that joke in.

[00:32:04] Yeah, it was funny.

[00:32:06] Look, all right.

[00:32:08] Let's just talk about Paprika.

[00:32:10] I can't look at this dossier anymore.

[00:32:12] What's important is he just sat down

[00:32:14] and he was like, I think I'm going to make

[00:32:16] an absolute fucking solid gold banger.

[00:32:18] And then he did.

[00:32:20] He was like, bang, here it is.

[00:32:22] And everyone saw it and was like...

[00:32:24] That's what happened.

[00:32:26] You don't like that?

[00:32:28] No, I loved it. It was great.

[00:32:30] And podcast.

[00:32:32] I think it's really important to bring

[00:32:34] these ideas on top of like a very

[00:32:36] sturdy genre structure.

[00:32:38] There's this extended quote in here

[00:32:40] that I will paraphrase.

[00:32:42] Thank you for saying it's extended.

[00:32:44] Yep.

[00:32:46] Where he talks about his...

[00:32:48] Cone's direct term

[00:32:50] that he used was hoodlum emulation.

[00:32:53] Cool.

[00:32:55] Where he basically said that like

[00:32:57] a thing he had a distaste for

[00:32:59] in animation was people just kind of

[00:33:00] saw it and that you very often saw

[00:33:02] someone learn something and now they

[00:33:04] just want to show you the technical

[00:33:06] skill or the creativity or how crazy

[00:33:08] their design was or they were inspired

[00:33:10] by something else or their craft grew

[00:33:12] to a point where there was a new thing

[00:33:14] they could do.

[00:33:16] And he was always like, that's sort of

[00:33:18] the hoodlum side of my brain.

[00:33:20] And then there is the other character

[00:33:22] that Satoshi Cone is the sort of

[00:33:24] like enforcer who forces the hoodlum

[00:33:26] cone to like put his wildest

[00:33:28] wildest instincts in a structure.

[00:33:30] So talking about Paprika being the

[00:33:32] thing he wanted to make for like 10

[00:33:34] years, I think there was...

[00:33:36] He had some feeling, even though

[00:33:38] obviously what was stopping him from

[00:33:40] really making the movie up until this

[00:33:42] point were the rights, budget level,

[00:33:44] you know, feeling of ability to be

[00:33:46] able to execute it, all that sort of

[00:33:48] stuff. There was also the thing I

[00:33:50] think for him of like, I want to know

[00:33:52] I am at a point where I'm not just

[00:33:54] doing this as an excuse to just go

[00:33:56] on flights of fancy and be able to

[00:33:58] impress people.

[00:34:00] Which I think is something that

[00:34:02] people often oversimplify this movie

[00:34:04] especially as being as just like,

[00:34:07] it's crazy, trippy man.

[00:34:09] Like I think on the Apple store

[00:34:12] description, it's like, this is your

[00:34:15] brain on anime.

[00:34:17] It's just it's like there's a reason

[00:34:20] behind like he is actually the most

[00:34:22] meticulous. Like I would say that

[00:34:24] like there are many other animation

[00:34:26] directors who are much more just

[00:34:28] like, here's the inside of my brain

[00:34:30] doesn't necessarily have to do with

[00:34:32] any plot or anything. I think he's

[00:34:34] much more rigorous about what he is.

[00:34:36] But I think this movie is not a

[00:34:38] tough watch on first, but like it's

[00:34:40] quite overwhelming. Yeah. Yeah. And

[00:34:42] like, I find it more rewarding every

[00:34:45] time I watch it. The first time I

[00:34:47] watched it, I was like so hyped and

[00:34:49] then I kind of exited being like,

[00:34:51] I don't yeah, I don't really know

[00:34:53] what like happened there. Yeah. And

[00:34:55] not in that way of like, whoa, right?

[00:34:56] It's just like fucking vibing with

[00:34:58] images. I was just like, I feel like,

[00:35:00] you know, like because it's kind of

[00:35:02] a tight plot. Like if you pay

[00:35:05] attention, but it's kind of easy to

[00:35:07] get distracted. Well, and he gets

[00:35:09] quite abstract at the end, which I

[00:35:11] wish I would have gotten to the end

[00:35:13] of the novel to know how the ending

[00:35:15] works on the page, because it really

[00:35:17] becomes, I think, something so

[00:35:19] symbolic and yes, dreamlike at the

[00:35:22] end as far as the resolution to

[00:35:24] the problem. I imagine it was

[00:35:26] fairly different because the one

[00:35:28] thing I saw in the dossier is that

[00:35:30] he started, he spent a long time

[00:35:32] storyboarding the movie and he did

[00:35:35] very detailed meticulous storyboards

[00:35:37] before he started animation. He's

[00:35:39] one of these guys who does that

[00:35:41] himself, which is again, one of

[00:35:43] these things that leads to a short

[00:35:45] life. Right. A year and a half

[00:35:47] of storyboarding by himself. And

[00:35:49] then like doing all the key to this

[00:35:51] has to be airtight for me before I

[00:35:52] start animation. But he started

[00:35:54] without an ending. He was like, I

[00:35:56] think I will find the ending as I

[00:35:58] go along. Yeah, that makes me think

[00:36:00] the ending has to be veering off

[00:36:02] from something else. The hoodlum

[00:36:04] thing, if I can just read his

[00:36:06] direct quote here, it's similar to

[00:36:08] the relationship of Atsuko and

[00:36:10] Paprika. So I think I could identify

[00:36:12] with those characters more easily.

[00:36:14] Subsequently, I could relate to the

[00:36:16] film better this time around. I

[00:36:18] wanted to go with my hoodlum

[00:36:20] instincts. So he was like trying to

[00:36:22] make it really, really easy.

[00:36:24] Yes. Right. And he said, if it

[00:36:26] doesn't work, it's the hoodlum's

[00:36:28] fault. But Satoshi Kon is there for

[00:36:30] equilibrium. He'll say hold up or

[00:36:32] just go with it depending on the

[00:36:34] situation. It's like the gas pedal

[00:36:36] and the brake pedal you have on a

[00:36:38] car. So a real Thomas Middleditch

[00:36:40] situation. But wait a second. Wait

[00:36:42] a second. What? Fifteen people are

[00:36:44] going to like that. But yes, it's

[00:36:46] like this is it's fascinating that

[00:36:48] he's like, this is my like flight

[00:36:50] of fancy movie where I can just

[00:36:52] be like a parole officer trying to

[00:36:54] keep things on rails.

[00:36:56] Well, it's funny. I mean, this is

[00:36:58] why I say that that that Millennium

[00:37:00] actress feels like a warm up for

[00:37:02] this, because you have that almost

[00:37:04] like literally represented in

[00:37:06] Millennium actress with the

[00:37:08] reporter or the documentarians sort

[00:37:10] of interjecting into this very dream

[00:37:12] like memory almost and then coming

[00:37:14] in and meddling with it or, you

[00:37:16] know, being like, is this what

[00:37:18] really happened?

[00:37:20] Imposing logic, explaining.

[00:37:22] Which I yeah, it does feel like

[00:37:24] that is just how he thinks of

[00:37:26] things. It's like and I identify

[00:37:28] with that a lot as a writer, like

[00:37:30] especially when you are not

[00:37:32] a novelist necessarily, when you

[00:37:34] are doing something that has to be

[00:37:36] like turned in and functional.

[00:37:38] Yeah. There's a part of you that's

[00:37:40] always checking yourself and it is

[00:37:42] this dichotomy of like how much do

[00:37:44] you let one live over the other?

[00:37:46] And yeah, it totally makes sense

[00:37:48] that that's how he thinks. Like he

[00:37:50] identifies with paprika and Otzko

[00:37:52] in this story and and like how

[00:37:54] one has to like coexist with the

[00:37:57] other. There's just such a major

[00:37:59] component of film writing that is

[00:38:01] engineering. Even if you're trying

[00:38:03] to do something that veers more

[00:38:05] towards non-narrative, save for

[00:38:08] doing a pure like installation

[00:38:10] piece. Right.

[00:38:12] Even if you're doing a

[00:38:14] non-narrative thing, there's some

[00:38:16] level of engineering where it's

[00:38:18] like, well, no, I'm writing this

[00:38:20] with the specific intent of this

[00:38:22] piece. And so it's like, yeah,

[00:38:24] it's like a direct translation

[00:38:26] that can be translated.

[00:38:28] It's direction to a process and

[00:38:30] a medium that then needs to have

[00:38:32] some kind of emotional or

[00:38:34] intellectual effect on people

[00:38:36] relative to the amount of time

[00:38:38] they're investing into it.

[00:38:40] Yeah. And you're always happy

[00:38:42] about the things that actually

[00:38:43] make it through that aren't in

[00:38:44] service of that function.

[00:38:46] The things that feel personal

[00:38:48] and like, yeah, that could be

[00:38:50] called a flight of fancy.

[00:38:51] But it's like, yeah, it's

[00:38:53] in service of this engine.

[00:38:56] And yeah, just fighting to get

[00:38:58] some of your own little personal

[00:38:59] stuff in there is a big part of

[00:39:00] it.

[00:39:01] And then here's a movie where you

[00:39:02] have a lead character who is

[00:39:04] like a scientific mind in

[00:39:06] a corporate structure.

[00:39:07] Sure.

[00:39:08] Who is also then going into

[00:39:09] dreams and fucking with shit.

[00:39:11] Being awesome.

[00:39:12] Trying to like.

[00:39:13] Yeah.

[00:39:14] Yeah. And being this like

[00:39:16] fantasy object.

[00:39:17] Yes.

[00:39:18] Like allowing

[00:39:19] her to become super malleable

[00:39:21] and, you know, not

[00:39:23] bound to her responsibilities

[00:39:25] necessarily.

[00:39:26] But Spice, would you name

[00:39:28] yourself after in the dream

[00:39:29] world?

[00:39:30] This is a great question.

[00:39:33] Garlic salt.

[00:39:34] I was going to say

[00:39:36] that's my answer as well.

[00:39:38] Now I feel like a fucking hack.

[00:39:40] Couple of garlic salt boys here.

[00:39:43] Like like everything bagel

[00:39:44] seasoning. Does that count?

[00:39:45] Like a shaker of.

[00:39:48] That is you have to admit that's

[00:39:50] funny. That's probably the most

[00:39:51] spot on description of my

[00:39:53] energy. You're just an everything

[00:39:54] bagel over there.

[00:39:55] Yeah. I'm just a shaker of MSG.

[00:39:57] Oh yeah.

[00:39:58] That's good. That's great.

[00:39:59] What would you be David?

[00:40:00] I don't know. Sage.

[00:40:01] I'm so wise.

[00:40:02] We use the term the term

[00:40:04] you coined. That sucks.

[00:40:05] That sucks.

[00:40:06] That's an herb not a spice.

[00:40:08] Well now if you grind it up it's

[00:40:09] on my spice rack baby.

[00:40:11] I got ground up sage.

[00:40:12] What's up?

[00:40:13] You coined the term years ago.

[00:40:14] Too much paprika on the sandwich.

[00:40:15] Yes I did.

[00:40:18] We're covering a movie called

[00:40:19] paprika for the first time.

[00:40:20] I'm trying to remember was it

[00:40:21] Bridges Spies?

[00:40:25] No I think I had it for some.

[00:40:26] No it's right. It's for split

[00:40:28] because in split

[00:40:30] James McAvoy is making

[00:40:31] sandwiches and he puts a lot of

[00:40:33] paprika on them which is you know

[00:40:34] a bit insane of him

[00:40:36] because he's you know what kind

[00:40:38] of sandwich or whatever.

[00:40:39] I can't remember.

[00:40:40] There's literally a paprika

[00:40:41] sandwich.

[00:40:42] I think that's where that came

[00:40:43] from. Right.

[00:40:45] Yes there's a paprika scene.

[00:40:47] Paprika originate from discussion

[00:40:48] of the sandwich making scene.

[00:40:49] It's when James McAvoy

[00:40:51] applied it to other things.

[00:40:52] Remember when he's in the kindly

[00:40:53] old lady vibe.

[00:40:55] He's like I made you a sandwich

[00:40:56] for the paprika on it and you're

[00:40:57] like wow this movie is great.

[00:40:59] And then I said that in

[00:41:02] either Lincoln or Bridges Spies

[00:41:03] or some movie.

[00:41:04] Sure.

[00:41:05] Spielberg put the appropriate

[00:41:06] amount of paprika on it and then

[00:41:08] put it back in the rack.

[00:41:09] Right back in the rack.

[00:41:11] I just think it's fascinating

[00:41:12] that that's the term we've

[00:41:13] created for like over

[00:41:15] indulgence.

[00:41:16] Which is funny because.

[00:41:17] And then this is a movie that

[00:41:18] is like so judicious in

[00:41:20] the amount of paprika it's using.

[00:41:22] It's literally in the final lines

[00:41:23] of the film like just

[00:41:25] a little paprika.

[00:41:27] Yeah. To balance it all out.

[00:41:29] I keep my paprika in the fridge to

[00:41:30] keep it red.

[00:41:32] Something I do.

[00:41:33] What?

[00:41:34] What happens if you.

[00:41:35] It kind of loses its color after

[00:41:36] a while.

[00:41:37] It oxidizes.

[00:41:38] Yeah. If you keep it in the fridge

[00:41:39] it stays really red which is nice.

[00:41:41] Well it seems like this paprika

[00:41:42] has been kept in the fridge.

[00:41:45] Good call.

[00:41:46] This movie is being made by

[00:41:47] a good call.

[00:41:48] This movie is beautiful and

[00:41:49] colorful.

[00:41:50] Her shirt is red.

[00:41:51] And her hair.

[00:41:52] And her hair.

[00:41:53] Her hair's kind of browny red.

[00:41:54] Yeah.

[00:41:55] Kind of orange.

[00:41:56] Auburn.

[00:41:57] The red shirt and the jeans

[00:41:58] is also direct lift from

[00:42:00] the book.

[00:42:01] That's what she wears.

[00:42:02] That's the paprika costume.

[00:42:03] And her car.

[00:42:04] You said her car is inappropriate.

[00:42:05] Yeah.

[00:42:07] It's a big pepper.

[00:42:09] On wheels.

[00:42:11] A chili relleno.

[00:42:12] Yeah that'd be fun.

[00:42:14] You remember when in Blue's

[00:42:15] Clues Salt and Pepper had a baby

[00:42:16] and it was called paprika.

[00:42:17] Of course.

[00:42:18] Pretty cool.

[00:42:19] Didn't make any sense but.

[00:42:20] Where is she now?

[00:42:21] I would not believe what

[00:42:22] she looks like today.

[00:42:24] I just googled paprika and

[00:42:25] autocompleted January 6th.

[00:42:27] Oh no.

[00:42:28] Doesn't that feel like a ZergNet

[00:42:29] prompt of like

[00:42:33] you won't believe what baby

[00:42:34] paprika looks like today.

[00:42:35] I don't like this.

[00:42:36] Thanks for shouting out ZergNet.

[00:42:37] Thank you.

[00:42:39] David.

[00:42:40] Yeah.

[00:42:41] You know what I hate?

[00:42:42] What?

[00:42:43] Licensing media for my project.

[00:42:45] What a hassle.

[00:42:47] I want to leave a voicemail

[00:42:49] for a family member wishing

[00:42:50] them a happy birthday and

[00:42:51] suddenly I find out it costs

[00:42:53] how much to license sympathy

[00:42:54] for the devil.

[00:42:56] That's what you want to do.

[00:42:58] Happy birthday is free now.

[00:42:59] Now it's free.

[00:43:01] Now it's free.

[00:43:03] But I thought it'd be fun to

[00:43:04] call my dad.

[00:43:05] Right.

[00:43:06] It's just first there's just

[00:43:07] hiss.

[00:43:08] You know just tape player

[00:43:09] hiss.

[00:43:10] Please allow me to introduce

[00:43:11] myself.

[00:43:12] I'm your son.

[00:43:13] Wishing you sympathy

[00:43:14] for the devil.

[00:43:15] That's what I said.

[00:43:16] But I'm now thinking of just

[00:43:17] doing the incredibly slow

[00:43:18] intro of Gimme Shelter

[00:43:20] on someone like it's just

[00:43:21] really slow

[00:43:23] before you're even like what

[00:43:24] is he doing.

[00:43:25] Oh it's Gimme Shelter.

[00:43:26] I want to make the people in

[00:43:27] my life know that I love them.

[00:43:28] But here's the thing.

[00:43:30] I got a lot of listeners who

[00:43:32] are creatives themselves

[00:43:33] working on all sorts of

[00:43:34] projects right.

[00:43:35] Yeah.

[00:43:36] And you want to use images.

[00:43:37] You want to use video clips.

[00:43:39] You want to use music.

[00:43:41] And sometimes it's hard to

[00:43:42] generate those assets yourself

[00:43:44] or find them for an

[00:43:45] affordable price.

[00:43:46] And David that's where

[00:43:47] Storyblocks comes in.

[00:43:49] That's right.

[00:43:50] Storyblocks is a stock media

[00:43:51] subscription service with a

[00:43:52] vast library of stock video

[00:43:53] images audio and sound

[00:43:55] effects unlimited royalty

[00:43:57] free assets for creators and

[00:43:58] businesses to enhance their

[00:43:59] projects without worrying

[00:44:00] about copyright issues or

[00:44:02] extra costs.

[00:44:03] This is the game.

[00:44:04] You're safe using this stuff

[00:44:05] like if you need like a

[00:44:06] little little music

[00:44:08] bed right.

[00:44:09] This is safe.

[00:44:10] You're not going to get sued

[00:44:11] you're not going to get pulled

[00:44:12] off YouTube or whatever

[00:44:13] or your very serious video

[00:44:14] skills.

[00:44:15] You know how often I need a

[00:44:16] boing sound all the time

[00:44:18] constantly.

[00:44:19] And those are all owned by

[00:44:20] Universal.

[00:44:22] And of all the boy these have

[00:44:23] been the two options for

[00:44:24] years.

[00:44:25] Ben is playing Universal

[00:44:27] one million dollars per

[00:44:28] Boeing or Ben

[00:44:30] is bringing a giant rusty

[00:44:31] spring into the studio and

[00:44:32] his hands are calloused

[00:44:34] as hell.

[00:44:35] I've gotten so many tetanus

[00:44:36] shots over these

[00:44:38] last nine years.

[00:44:39] What you should have done is

[00:44:40] subscribe to Storyblocks

[00:44:41] because listen it's not a

[00:44:42] cart service it's a

[00:44:43] subscription and suddenly the

[00:44:44] whole catalog

[00:44:46] the library is so much but I

[00:44:47] just realized there's two

[00:44:48] mandatory talking points.

[00:44:50] One is one

[00:44:52] is that Storyblocks offers

[00:44:53] unlimited downloads of

[00:44:54] diverse and high quality

[00:44:55] media for one predictable

[00:44:57] subscription.

[00:44:58] I'm saying say so say

[00:44:59] goodbye to expensive per clip

[00:45:00] pricing.

[00:45:01] Right.

[00:45:02] I've got this curated stock

[00:45:03] library.

[00:45:04] You got you know all kinds

[00:45:06] of stuff that's templates

[00:45:08] for your favorite editing

[00:45:09] programs right like Pro or

[00:45:10] Apple Motion or whatever

[00:45:11] then she resolved they can

[00:45:12] fit any of these and it's

[00:45:14] frequently refreshed with

[00:45:16] commissioned content based on

[00:45:17] customer demand.

[00:45:18] Right.

[00:45:19] It's not the same stuff

[00:45:20] always.

[00:45:21] They're seeking out diverse

[00:45:22] contributors to ensure better

[00:45:23] representation in their

[00:45:24] collections and they

[00:45:26] compensate all their artists

[00:45:27] fairly.

[00:45:28] This is not like weird AI

[00:45:29] crap.

[00:45:30] That's what rules see creators

[00:45:31] and businesses alike are under

[00:45:32] increasing pressure to create

[00:45:33] better video faster than

[00:45:35] ever.

[00:45:36] And with Storyblocks

[00:45:38] you're legally covered

[00:45:39] clear cut licensing and

[00:45:40] coverage so you can focus on

[00:45:41] creating not double checking

[00:45:43] your legal rights because who

[00:45:44] wants to do that for a

[00:45:46] limited time.

[00:45:47] Get three additional months

[00:45:48] free if you sign up with an

[00:45:49] annual individual license

[00:45:51] plan.

[00:45:52] Go to Storyblocks dot com

[00:45:53] slash check to take advantage

[00:45:55] of this exclusive offer

[00:45:57] only available until the end

[00:45:58] of May 2024.

[00:46:00] Talk to talk.

[00:46:01] The offer won't appear

[00:46:02] checkout but rest assured it

[00:46:03] will be automatically added

[00:46:04] to your accounts shortly

[00:46:06] after you sign up.

[00:46:07] Boy you know.

[00:46:08] Bye bye.

[00:46:10] Paprika is set in the near

[00:46:14] future where a new newly

[00:46:15] created device called the DC

[00:46:17] mini.

[00:46:18] What does that stand for.

[00:46:19] DC.

[00:46:20] It's two.

[00:46:21] So there are two devices

[00:46:22] in the book and one is called

[00:46:23] the Daedalus and I can't

[00:46:24] remember what the other one

[00:46:25] is but it's sort of a

[00:46:27] combination of the two of them.

[00:46:28] There's also something called a

[00:46:29] Gorgon in the book.

[00:46:31] A lot of Greek myth here.

[00:46:33] Yeah.

[00:46:34] That that's like the wireless

[00:46:35] technology.

[00:46:36] So basically the DC mini is a

[00:46:37] combination of all these

[00:46:38] different existing dream

[00:46:40] things they have that has

[00:46:41] basically been on the black

[00:46:43] market illegally at the point

[00:46:44] of the book combined into one

[00:46:45] thing that lets people be

[00:46:47] in other people's.

[00:46:48] Basically gone from a computer

[00:46:49] the size of a room to an

[00:46:51] iPhone that now can do

[00:46:53] too many things.

[00:46:54] Yeah.

[00:46:55] And wirelessly.

[00:46:56] Right.

[00:46:57] And part of it's

[00:46:59] mentioned it's very techie

[00:47:00] blah blah blah in the movie

[00:47:01] and it doesn't really matter.

[00:47:02] But like

[00:47:04] the the idea of the

[00:47:05] anaphylaxis which I barely

[00:47:07] get is like basically the more

[00:47:09] that the

[00:47:11] the more that this

[00:47:14] bond is formed between

[00:47:17] a person and the technology

[00:47:19] the stronger it gets which

[00:47:21] is sort of why I took

[00:47:23] the most susceptible to being

[00:47:24] fucked with because she's

[00:47:26] been using it the most.

[00:47:28] Why she basically has is

[00:47:30] in dreams even

[00:47:32] without control.

[00:47:33] Yeah.

[00:47:34] Right. Like her avatar.

[00:47:35] She's there.

[00:47:37] I believe

[00:47:39] there there are a couple of things

[00:47:40] in this movie that feel like they

[00:47:42] might have very specifically

[00:47:44] influenced Nolan right without

[00:47:45] having read the book just reading

[00:47:47] through stuff.

[00:47:49] I sort of was leaning in the same

[00:47:50] direction you're leaning Emily

[00:47:51] which is like it feels more

[00:47:53] likely that he read the book at

[00:47:54] some point and

[00:47:56] that that might have planted ideas

[00:47:57] in his head.

[00:47:59] Perhaps inceptioned ideas

[00:48:01] in his head but in a way that

[00:48:02] feels like I.

[00:48:03] The whole thing with Nolan in this

[00:48:04] is he's never acknowledged it ever.

[00:48:07] And so it's like if he did

[00:48:09] get inspired by this book or movie

[00:48:11] it would be nice for him to

[00:48:12] acknowledge it but he never has.

[00:48:14] He's always said Howard.

[00:48:15] Well some people would just say

[00:48:16] things like he's a coward on our

[00:48:17] podcast.

[00:48:18] I wouldn't because he might not

[00:48:20] have been inspired by this book.

[00:48:22] I really called him baby and a

[00:48:23] fraud.

[00:48:24] Yeah I really want people to get

[00:48:25] mad at me.

[00:48:26] So well please log on

[00:48:28] to blankies.com

[00:48:30] for some real

[00:48:32] real real real angsty

[00:48:34] angry shit.

[00:48:36] But the other thing is he's always

[00:48:37] said that Inception is like

[00:48:40] something he wrote as a teenager

[00:48:41] which I very much believe.

[00:48:44] I adore Inception.

[00:48:45] I think it's a very fun movie but

[00:48:47] it feels like something that a

[00:48:48] teenager built upon.

[00:48:50] Right. The difference between our

[00:48:51] opinions of Inception is that David

[00:48:53] and I like that aspect of it.

[00:48:55] It feels like a dumb thing a 15

[00:48:56] year old made up reapply

[00:48:59] logic.

[00:49:00] It's what I love about it.

[00:49:01] It's like it's like me thinking of

[00:49:03] a teenager in the hands

[00:49:05] of a guy who can run a gigantic

[00:49:07] scale.

[00:49:08] Not for me to imagine Inception

[00:49:09] being made in the backyard on

[00:49:11] somebody's camcorder.

[00:49:12] Totally.

[00:49:13] Like everybody wearing suits

[00:49:15] and like being really serious

[00:49:17] grown up guys.

[00:49:18] We're in the dream.

[00:49:19] Honestly it's the guns that really

[00:49:20] lose me pretty early on

[00:49:22] in Inception.

[00:49:23] I'm just like why is it gone.

[00:49:25] Like it could be literally

[00:49:26] anything and you guys are in suits

[00:49:27] wearing guns like it's fucking

[00:49:28] reservoir.

[00:49:29] This is not to relitigate

[00:49:30] Inception but what I find

[00:49:31] fascinating about that movie is

[00:49:33] like that is a movie about dreams

[00:49:35] made by one of the most literal

[00:49:36] minded.

[00:49:37] We don't need to we're not doing

[00:49:38] Inception.

[00:49:39] I think it's actually kind of

[00:49:40] important.

[00:49:41] I do too.

[00:49:42] I know you don't want to invite

[00:49:43] it but it's such a but it's such

[00:49:45] just I don't know what like 10

[00:49:47] years ago whenever it was.

[00:49:48] I mean I just think it's a cloud

[00:49:50] we're not battled yet.

[00:49:52] And if anything I want to talk

[00:49:53] about it because I do think that

[00:49:55] it overshadows this film in some

[00:49:56] ways that I don't enjoy and I'd

[00:49:58] like to like try to dispel

[00:50:00] it or at least like analyze

[00:50:02] that a little bit because they

[00:50:04] do sort of for Western audiences.

[00:50:07] They are pretty inseparable.

[00:50:09] Well this was the point I was

[00:50:10] trying to make is that like

[00:50:11] inseparable.

[00:50:13] I believe he had this idea when

[00:50:14] he was 15.

[00:50:15] I believe that's like the core of

[00:50:16] the idea.

[00:50:17] There are little things in this

[00:50:19] movie some of them may be

[00:50:20] originating in this film some of

[00:50:21] them originate in the book where

[00:50:22] I'm like that feels like that

[00:50:24] might have pinned in his brain on

[00:50:26] top of the idea he already had.

[00:50:28] And then he took it in a

[00:50:29] different direction.

[00:50:30] Sure. But one of them is like that

[00:50:31] notion of the more time you spend

[00:50:33] in here the more caught you get.

[00:50:35] Yeah which obviously in that movie

[00:50:37] is done through the Marion

[00:50:38] Couture character and a very

[00:50:40] different thing.

[00:50:42] Yeah.

[00:50:43] I mean I ultimately think that the

[00:50:44] films are about two very

[00:50:45] different things which is why I

[00:50:46] don't think like the ripoff thing

[00:50:48] is exactly clean and yes people

[00:50:50] pick up imagery.

[00:50:51] I think there is some imagery

[00:50:52] that's so direct that I'm just a

[00:50:53] little.

[00:50:54] It's the hallway.

[00:50:56] The hallway sort of yes.

[00:50:57] I get like there's one image they

[00:50:58] don't really do like a combat

[00:50:59] thing in the hallway in Paprika

[00:51:02] but like more when some of the

[00:51:03] stuff with the shattering I was

[00:51:04] going to say that's basically

[00:51:06] mirrored directly with Elliot

[00:51:07] Page.

[00:51:08] Yeah.

[00:51:09] And all of just the movies that

[00:51:10] mirror imagery.

[00:51:12] Also the general feeling like

[00:51:13] whether or not it's a direct

[00:51:14] imagery or not but like the thing

[00:51:16] of people being hooked up to

[00:51:17] these things waking up in a new

[00:51:19] world like that general kind of

[00:51:21] almost cathartic feeling.

[00:51:22] Yeah.

[00:51:23] And that break from these very

[00:51:24] exciting moments is very

[00:51:27] that's the feeling that they

[00:51:28] share.

[00:51:29] Headband kind of thing like which

[00:51:30] is funny because people ask Cone

[00:51:31] like did you rip the headband off

[00:51:32] from existence.

[00:51:34] It looks the same.

[00:51:35] And he was like no I've never

[00:51:36] seen that the headbands inspired

[00:51:37] by like a plant I like.

[00:51:39] And it's jankier too but it does

[00:51:40] remind me a little bit more of

[00:51:42] Eternal Sunshine where it's the

[00:51:43] same.

[00:51:44] Yeah.

[00:51:45] Like lying in the bed and

[00:51:46] someone sort of watching over you.

[00:51:47] Yeah right.

[00:51:48] You know.

[00:51:49] In this way talking about like

[00:51:50] our favorite adaptations are ones

[00:51:51] that tell you about the filmmaker

[00:51:53] and their relationship to the

[00:51:54] work and whatever.

[00:51:56] There's something very telling

[00:51:57] about like paprika

[00:52:00] is a movie about an animator with

[00:52:02] an animators innate sense of like

[00:52:04] abstract creativity that he is

[00:52:06] trying to impose order and

[00:52:07] meaning on that he is trying to

[00:52:09] self police versus Inception

[00:52:11] being one of the most literal

[00:52:12] minded men alive.

[00:52:14] Like what's the wildest thing I

[00:52:15] can think of.

[00:52:16] I don't know.

[00:52:17] Well-dressed man with a gun

[00:52:18] walking up to you.

[00:52:19] I don't think love Inception.

[00:52:20] I think it's a masterpiece but

[00:52:21] I'm saying that's what's

[00:52:22] interesting about the two films.

[00:52:24] So it's what makes them very

[00:52:25] different.

[00:52:26] Yeah.

[00:52:28] You're so the main difference to

[00:52:30] me is that

[00:52:33] Inception is a movie about

[00:52:36] a partnership.

[00:52:37] Yes.

[00:52:38] And it's about a project.

[00:52:39] It's about like making a movie

[00:52:41] that's addiction to whatever it

[00:52:43] could be a drug thing.

[00:52:44] It could be a creative process

[00:52:46] and like being stuck in a world

[00:52:47] with somebody.

[00:52:48] At any rate it is about what

[00:52:49] happens to two people when they

[00:52:50] are like together too long

[00:52:53] making too deep a connection to

[00:52:54] get together too many

[00:52:55] skyscrapers making too many

[00:52:57] childhood homes in the classic

[00:52:59] Nolan electric building

[00:53:00] downtown.

[00:53:01] If my wife left me I'd be a

[00:53:02] fucking mess.

[00:53:03] Yes.

[00:53:04] Yeah.

[00:53:05] Yeah.

[00:53:06] And and and paprika is about

[00:53:07] something much bigger and

[00:53:08] cosmic which I think ultimately

[00:53:11] makes it more ambitious to

[00:53:13] me.

[00:53:14] And it also makes like exactly

[00:53:15] the the animator sensibility

[00:53:17] is really what wins out here.

[00:53:18] Yeah.

[00:53:19] Because you don't there

[00:53:21] is a way you can yada yada

[00:53:23] some of the technicalities of

[00:53:25] your science fiction premise

[00:53:27] that you don't have to you

[00:53:29] don't have like JGL standing

[00:53:31] at the end of a stair.

[00:53:32] I just watched this by the way.

[00:53:33] I hadn't watched in a while like

[00:53:34] standing at the edge of a

[00:53:35] staircase being like

[00:53:37] paradox like I just like

[00:53:39] that shit is where I don't

[00:53:41] think that's how he said it by

[00:53:42] the way I think he's

[00:53:43] paradox paradox

[00:53:46] but it's just that that to me

[00:53:48] is like him.

[00:53:49] It's the prestige or whatever

[00:53:50] which is a movie of his that I

[00:53:51] like a lot but it's just like

[00:53:52] kind of trying it.

[00:53:54] Yeah. It gets it gets stuck in

[00:53:55] the literalness when it could be

[00:53:57] in the clouds a little more.

[00:53:58] It could.

[00:53:59] There is a version of that movie

[00:54:00] that's still about the same

[00:54:01] stuff. It's still about Marion

[00:54:02] Cotillard that allows itself

[00:54:04] to have a little more

[00:54:06] to be exist with its feet a

[00:54:08] little bit off the ground.

[00:54:09] See I agree.

[00:54:10] I agree.

[00:54:11] I agree.

[00:54:12] I agree.

[00:54:13] I agree.

[00:54:14] I agree.

[00:54:15] I agree.

[00:54:16] I agree.

[00:54:18] You know that's how I feel.

[00:54:20] That's how I feel.

[00:54:22] I don't want to go off the

[00:54:23] ground.

[00:54:24] See I for me all of that is

[00:54:26] his feature not a bug because

[00:54:27] it's so telling a funny I find

[00:54:29] if I know and that's I mean

[00:54:31] I'm not asking him to make a

[00:54:32] different movie but that's

[00:54:33] where that movie trips up for

[00:54:34] me.

[00:54:35] That's where I get out of it a

[00:54:36] little bit.

[00:54:37] I think there's a lot of cool

[00:54:38] stuff in that movie.

[00:54:39] I'm not saying I like outwardly

[00:54:40] I.

[00:54:41] readily admit when Nolan impresses me and I think he's done a good job. That movie is

[00:54:45] like kind of embarrassing to me, but I love a lot of his other movies.

[00:54:48] You were like veering back onto the main road clean and then you throw in the sideswipe

[00:54:53] of embarrassing.

[00:54:54] That's so good.

[00:54:55] But, but I mean, he's, whatever, he is ambitious and it's cool. And I always tell this story

[00:55:01] about how I was downtown when they were filming the car chase scenes in downtown LA.

[00:55:06] For Inception?

[00:55:08] And they were doing the Milky Rain down there and it ruined a pair of my shoes. So I'll

[00:55:13] always have that.

[00:55:14] Vendetta revealed. It's all because of your shoes.

[00:55:19] Didn't he even fucking apologize during his Oscar speech?

[00:55:21] What kind of shoes were they?

[00:55:23] They were like some probably, like there was some canvas slip on shoes that I shouldn't

[00:55:26] have been wearing.

[00:55:27] Okay. Nolan dumped water all over them.

[00:55:30] My $10 shoes.

[00:55:32] Another example. The thing about Paprika and is that it's, it's a great movie. This is

[00:55:41] my thing. Like why must it exist in any shadow? Right?

[00:55:44] We don't need it to.

[00:55:45] That's why I wanted to have this conversation because I don't think it should exist in any

[00:55:49] shadow.

[00:55:50] I think every time this movie gets brought up and you're right in the West people immediately

[00:55:54] are like, well, Inception. I'm like, you don't need to worry about that. Paprika is doing

[00:55:57] great.

[00:55:58] I think it doesn't help the legacy of either movie to constantly frame it.

[00:56:01] It did have to be discussed.

[00:56:04] It's mostly the hallway thing. People really trip on that.

[00:56:08] We're not going to single handedly dispel this connection here on Whitecheck, the podcast.

[00:56:14] I have no idea if he's ever even really talked about it. This is all like internet chatter

[00:56:19] of like, why won't he like, you know, mention this?

[00:56:23] And I feel he's never even said like, oh, I don't know what that is or oh, I didn't.

[00:56:27] I can't. I'm not entirely sure about that.

[00:56:30] Despite him not being a fucking poster, it's not like he's a guy who isn't talking often.

[00:56:36] Wait, wait a second. I haven't heard of this.

[00:56:39] He doesn't. I don't know if you guys know about this.

[00:56:40] What is he talking about?

[00:56:41] He doesn't have a phone.

[00:56:42] That's impossible.

[00:56:43] He can't post.

[00:56:44] It's so good that he doesn't have a phone.

[00:56:45] He has rules.

[00:56:46] It's the best thing ever.

[00:56:47] What a god.

[00:56:48] That is one of the best things ever. I love that.

[00:56:52] The big difference in this movie versus something like Inception. Inception is about like, right,

[00:56:57] these people who, that's their job. They're builders, right?

[00:57:01] In Paprika it's like, no, dreams are this like, you know, uncontrollable thing.

[00:57:06] They're more menacing.

[00:57:08] Yeah, like they can get out of your grasp really quickly.

[00:57:11] They can mesh into other people's dreams and then eventually maybe start bleeding into

[00:57:15] the real world.

[00:57:16] Like it's much more like hazy how it all works.

[00:57:19] Well, it's also just the danger, like the kind of dialogue going on is the potential

[00:57:25] danger of them being messed with too much, of letting dreams be dreams, of letting your

[00:57:30] personal private world become external.

[00:57:34] Well, the emotional core of this movie is a guy who's racked with regret over not pursuing

[00:57:39] basically.

[00:57:40] A film career.

[00:57:41] Yeah, but like an artistic partnership, right?

[00:57:43] A relationship that was based on a shared sense of creativity that he left.

[00:57:48] The guy died, which is also kind of eerie within the cone.

[00:57:52] Ironically, even more tragic to consider that.

[00:57:55] Yeah.

[00:57:56] Right.

[00:57:57] And then he entered a world literally controlled by rules and law.

[00:58:01] He became a fucking cop.

[00:58:03] A cop.

[00:58:04] Yes.

[00:58:05] Yes.

[00:58:06] And it's just like, should I have continued making movies in my backyard?

[00:58:08] Which is like once again this like internal cone, like not that I think he questions whether

[00:58:14] or not he should have pursued a career in the arts, but it's like, well, this is another

[00:58:18] split of his psyche.

[00:58:20] There's like the part of him...

[00:58:21] The manager and the dreamer.

[00:58:22] Yes.

[00:58:23] Yeah.

[00:58:24] Yeah.

[00:58:25] Totally.

[00:58:26] And the two paths one could go down.

[00:58:27] Right.

[00:58:28] And the artist is dead in this movie.

[00:58:29] Who's the guy who's putting him in the cage?

[00:58:33] Is that supposed to be his old friend or is that just kind of like...

[00:58:36] It's unclear.

[00:58:37] It's a good question.

[00:58:38] His subconscious.

[00:58:39] I love that it's not really answered.

[00:58:40] Yeah.

[00:58:41] Unless it is answered, in which case I noticed that and I'm not telling you guys that.

[00:58:43] If we know...

[00:58:44] To seem down to earth.

[00:58:45] If it's answered, we all know the answer.

[00:58:48] Because like the first thing in Paprika is we're in this guy's recurring dream where

[00:58:52] he's like in the audience of a circus.

[00:58:55] And then suddenly he's in the cage in the middle of the circus.

[00:58:58] Everyone in the audience has his face.

[00:58:59] And is running towards him.

[00:59:01] So it's a dream I have every night too.

[00:59:03] Look, it's a good movie dream.

[00:59:05] Yeah.

[00:59:06] There's also this effect where you're suddenly in his point of view and like the camera's

[00:59:09] like panning around in this way that is like so unusual for animation.

[00:59:14] Very cool.

[00:59:15] The notion that this almost got off the ground as a live action film a couple of years earlier

[00:59:19] before they finally decided like, is this just prohibitive to do in live action?

[00:59:22] You can do it, but it would be...

[00:59:24] They were, I think, filing it more as like, oh, the effects might not be there or they're

[00:59:27] too expensive or whatever.

[00:59:29] I do think there's something just too and there are many dream movies I like, but you

[00:59:34] always struggle with this where it's like, how do you visually represent a dream without

[00:59:39] stylizing it too much?

[00:59:41] Because in your dreams, your reality is very slippery, but it does feel real to you when

[00:59:46] you're in it.

[00:59:47] There's not this distinction.

[00:59:48] You can get caught up in actually thinking it's really happening.

[00:59:51] In animation, there's just a clean line of like the dreams can look exactly the same

[00:59:55] as reality because you don't have to put fucking filters on your lenses or like change the

[01:00:01] color palette to delineate.

[01:00:02] You're still the same people drawn in the same way.

[01:00:05] And when they start evolving and abstracting their forms, it's like it's not a CGI layer

[01:00:10] on top of it.

[01:00:11] You don't trip over it.

[01:00:12] Yeah, it's just all seamless.

[01:00:13] Like I think about like I was when I was watching Inception, like there's just a moment where

[01:00:18] they're in...

[01:00:19] I forget which setting they're in, but somebody sit in on a bed that has a pink knitted blanket

[01:00:24] on it.

[01:00:25] And I'm just like, one of the great things about Paprika is you don't have to fill in

[01:00:29] that that's like a pink knitted blanket and think about it being a construct within the

[01:00:32] dream that things can be as defined or hazy as you want them to be.

[01:00:37] And you'll never really have your attention drawn to it.

[01:00:40] You'll just sort of be aware of it while you're watching it.

[01:00:42] That's the other thing.

[01:00:43] Conan is at this point just like fucking king of transitions, king of like slipping in

[01:00:47] and out of realities.

[01:00:48] Yeah, the whole...

[01:00:49] I mean, we should talk about the opening credits, which is just one of my favorite

[01:00:54] sequences.

[01:00:55] Love those credits.

[01:00:56] We were shouting out the credits.

[01:00:57] I love it so much.

[01:00:58] We watched the movie together.

[01:00:59] Yeah, we watched it.

[01:01:00] I watched it two times.

[01:01:01] Emily is staling with me.

[01:01:02] Staling with me.

[01:01:03] Staling with me.

[01:01:04] Getting stale.

[01:01:05] Staling, staling.

[01:01:06] You come to my house, you stale right up.

[01:01:10] Got real crusty.

[01:01:13] I brought a fresh loaf of bread to David's house as a home warming gift.

[01:01:18] Immediately, more murder weapon.

[01:01:23] But yeah, Paprika starts on...

[01:01:27] It starts with...

[01:01:29] No, does it start on it?

[01:01:30] No, it ends with Atsuko.

[01:01:32] But like it kind of follows Paprika.

[01:01:34] She's sort of inhabiting all these different advertisements, like hopping on a guy's

[01:01:40] shirt, like sort of making her way through the city in this very, you know, fluid way.

[01:01:45] This very unbound way.

[01:01:47] And I love, I mean, I love the music of this.

[01:01:50] I love the Susumu Hirasawa score is like going off.

[01:01:54] And it's, I don't know, it to me, I remember when I was on this podcast talking about, when

[01:02:01] I was on the Miyazaki episode.

[01:02:03] Castle in the Sky.

[01:02:05] Yeah, when I was on Castle in the Sky and I was talking about in Kingdom of Dreams and

[01:02:09] Madness when Miyazaki is talking about like, oh, an animation you can like do.

[01:02:13] Like he's looking out at this, out at Tokyo being like, you know, if I'm an animation,

[01:02:18] I can hop from this roof to the next.

[01:02:20] I can run up it.

[01:02:22] And they kind of do this little montage of all of his characters running and dodging

[01:02:26] and going all over the place.

[01:02:27] And I feel like this, like, to me, that is sort of the summation of what animation is

[01:02:31] good at.

[01:02:32] And it's not just like, oh, you can do what's physically impossible.

[01:02:35] To me, it's like you can embody a feeling or a mindset that you just can't do.

[01:02:42] Yes.

[01:02:43] It's so true.

[01:02:44] And you could never replicate the thrill of this sequence by just doing it.

[01:02:50] Like even if you did everything one to one perfectly, there is something about the fact

[01:02:55] that it's animated, the fact that it feels so free.

[01:02:57] That is just like why I love it.

[01:03:01] If you literally had unlimited money all the time in the world and were handed paprika

[01:03:07] and were like, make this live action as close as you can.

[01:03:10] It probably would kind of suck.

[01:03:12] Don't you also think, I mean, they nearly...

[01:03:15] God bless.

[01:03:16] It seemingly got killed by inception.

[01:03:18] Wolfgang Peterson was supposed to do it.

[01:03:21] But then recently there was this Cathy Yan series, but that seems to have fizzled.

[01:03:28] That was just like as of two years ago, so I don't know what's going on there.

[01:03:31] That might still be, I mean, who knows?

[01:03:32] Amazon's a great company that's never done anything wrong.

[01:03:34] The thing about streaming television is that onward and upward, more and more.

[01:03:38] But I think her adaptation was going to be more off the book.

[01:03:41] Whereas Wolfgang might have done something closer to this.

[01:03:44] What the fuck would Wolfgang Peterson do?

[01:03:49] I love the guy, but like, come on.

[01:03:51] Yes.

[01:03:52] I guess he did the never ending story.

[01:03:54] It's pretty dreamy.

[01:03:55] Yeah, he's done some dreamy shit.

[01:03:58] At that point, he was more in his Poseidon era.

[01:04:00] Well, Poseidon stars a couple dream boats, including the great ship itself, Poseidon.

[01:04:04] Any others?

[01:04:05] A boat of dreams.

[01:04:06] Josh Lucas?

[01:04:07] Richard Dreyfuss?

[01:04:08] Kurt?

[01:04:09] Kurt's in that.

[01:04:11] Yeah, it's got a weird cast.

[01:04:12] I mean, we're awesome.

[01:04:14] What I was going to say is that I do think a thing that Cohn and Miyazaki both get in

[01:04:22] spades is there is that unbridled freedom of animation, right?

[01:04:27] If you go from that into a scene that feels like the type of scene that does not need

[01:04:32] to be animated, a scene with a sort of maturity, a delicacy, a realism.

[01:04:37] People in lab coats talking in a room.

[01:04:39] Right, walking and talking.

[01:04:40] There's something more jarring in the contrast there of choosing your moments to fully ground.

[01:04:47] Because there's something disorienting almost of seeing like, I'm used to this being used

[01:04:52] for flight of fancy or entertainment.

[01:04:55] When animation slows down, and I think it's partly just because animation is so expensive

[01:05:00] that people don't usually want to take time to animate a character thinking.

[01:05:03] We're used to everything being like so whiz-bang that those guys put their chips down and go

[01:05:08] like, no, it's important to have a scene that's slowed.

[01:05:12] Yes, although I do feel like anytime anyone's...

[01:05:15] There's always just this risk that someone's going to start talking nonsense and throw

[01:05:19] themselves out a window or something in this movie.

[01:05:21] Yeah, but that's what's helpful.

[01:05:22] Which is frightening and cool.

[01:05:23] Even just from the opening dream sequence to the two of them looking at the laptop on

[01:05:29] the bed, and it suddenly feels like this weirdly sexual intimate thing, right?

[01:05:33] Where they're both in bathrooms.

[01:05:34] They're waking up.

[01:05:35] They're in a fancy hotel room.

[01:05:37] In the book, it is so much more overtly like a sex work type thing.

[01:05:41] I was going to say.

[01:05:42] She's kind of doing this freelance basically.

[01:05:44] It's like this machine exists.

[01:05:45] It's not regulated.

[01:05:47] And she's wearing a wig.

[01:05:49] So she's sort of going into people's dreams to kind of help them understand.

[01:05:53] She meets them in the radio club bar, which is a real bar in the book.

[01:05:58] She meets him there.

[01:06:00] It's like very much like a private men's club.

[01:06:02] She has a drink with them.

[01:06:04] They go back to her room.

[01:06:06] It's very, very sex work.

[01:06:08] It has the energy of like high class escort in a five star hotel with a Fortune 500 CEO.

[01:06:15] And there is the weird intimacy.

[01:06:17] That kind of thing doesn't happen.

[01:06:18] Fortune 500 CEOs are very above board.

[01:06:20] The intimacy of them sitting there on the bed next to each other and looking at his

[01:06:22] subconscious.

[01:06:24] It's he's naked in a psychic.

[01:06:27] It's like they made a sex tape and then they're playing it back.

[01:06:30] And this technology has been developed like when you go into the more structured world,

[01:06:34] not the DC mini, but sort of what you're saying, all these larger technologies were created

[01:06:39] in theory as like breakthroughs in psychology.

[01:06:42] Right. Finally.

[01:06:44] Yes. But this is being done in this weird intimate way where it's like, what are you

[01:06:48] trying to get out of this?

[01:06:50] What are you trying to puzzle out?

[01:06:52] And I'm also talking about like why you couldn't do this in live action.

[01:06:55] I've been thinking about this a lot.

[01:06:57] And especially because it happens like a month apart from less than the last

[01:07:03] Indiana Jones movie coming out.

[01:07:05] The Dial of Destiny?

[01:07:07] The Dial of Destiny.

[01:07:09] Wow.

[01:07:10] By Christopher McQuarrie on one of the 18 hour Death Reckoning episodes that I talk

[01:07:14] about nonstop.

[01:07:16] You do.

[01:07:18] All the flashback stuff to young Tom Cruise, which I guess there's maybe more of in part

[01:07:22] because they asked him if he had thought about doing de-aging rather than that.

[01:07:26] Basically just keeps him in the shadows over the short term.

[01:07:29] You have talked about this on this podcast multiple times.

[01:07:31] Have I said this?

[01:07:33] Yes. I'm sure you're about to say what you've already said.

[01:07:35] Where he said we did a bunch of tests and the result every time was the best it ever

[01:07:39] looked, and sometimes it looked perfect.

[01:07:41] I never stopped thinking that's a good effect.

[01:07:43] Right.

[01:07:44] Where if you did this in live action, you'd be thinking nonstop.

[01:07:47] That looks cool. How do they do that?

[01:07:49] Infinite money. Best execution possible.

[01:07:51] Like, holy shit, that looks wild.

[01:07:53] Rather than this where it does feel like there's one continuous stream.

[01:07:57] Anyway, Dial of Destiny, obviously the de-aging is seamless and the whole movie just

[01:08:01] like crackles from start to finish.

[01:08:03] I'm going to get angry at you for that.

[01:08:05] Because they think I'm serious or because they like the movie?

[01:08:08] Both directions.

[01:08:10] David only feels that way because the opening takes place in New York City.

[01:08:14] Doesn't it take place in like Bavaria?

[01:08:17] Not the very opening, I guess.

[01:08:19] The Colony.

[01:08:21] No, I like the college section right because it takes place in New York City.

[01:08:24] He probably goes to a bodega, which of course is the only we have.

[01:08:26] That's the one section I kind of like.

[01:08:28] I actually think that movie's fine. Okay. It's not amazing. It's whatever.

[01:08:31] I really liked that movie for that half second. I saw a billboard for it in LA and I thought

[01:08:35] it said The Durrell of Destiny.

[01:08:37] The Durrell of Destiny! Ben, what did you want to say?

[01:08:40] I love the gibberish dialogue.

[01:08:42] Yes.

[01:08:43] It's so poetic.

[01:08:45] What's going on there?

[01:08:47] And it just like, it doesn't make any sense, but there's stuff in there that...

[01:08:51] You're paying attention to it. It's not just there immediately going like blah, blah, blah.

[01:08:54] You're like, wait, what are they saying? You know?

[01:08:56] Did anyone listen to the dub? I didn't.

[01:08:58] I've never seen the dub of this movie.

[01:09:00] I was flipping back and forth.

[01:09:02] I wondered how the gibberish was in a dub version.

[01:09:04] I watched like 90% subs, 10% dubs.

[01:09:08] I kept on kind of switching because I do tend to...

[01:09:11] I'm dumb, but like process movies better on a first watch.

[01:09:15] I feel like anime specifically for whatever reason.

[01:09:17] I thought the dub was really bad.

[01:09:18] The performances were so bad that I couldn't stick with it.

[01:09:21] And I don't think I got to any of the gibberish portions.

[01:09:23] Sorry to the actors in the dub whose names I don't particularly recognize.

[01:09:28] Mostly like video gamey voiceover actors.

[01:09:30] Yeah, I can't imagine it would be that good, honestly.

[01:09:33] I was surprised at how much I liked the Millennium Actors dub.

[01:09:36] I think those were done a little later and maybe have a little more spin on them.

[01:09:40] Yes, Sentokyo Godfathers.

[01:09:42] There have been more recent American dubs that feel like...

[01:09:45] I mean, I think part of it is just like...

[01:09:47] Spit and polish.

[01:09:49] Yeah, anime is in a much different place in American culture now than it was when this film came out.

[01:09:55] And the American dub of this, which is still the one that was released in theaters in 2007,

[01:09:59] feels like the actors were directed as if they were in Dragon Ball Z.

[01:10:03] Which is no disrespect to Dragon Ball Z, but it's like, well, anime is action.

[01:10:07] It's very high energy.

[01:10:09] Everyone yell all the time.

[01:10:11] It's very operatic.

[01:10:13] The performances all just felt a little too large.

[01:10:15] The gibberish is very cool. I don't speak Japanese.

[01:10:17] I would love to know what it is in Japanese.

[01:10:19] Like if it's being literally translated or it's some other kind of gibberish that has the similar atmosphere.

[01:10:26] As far as I can tell, it's pretty...

[01:10:29] I only know nouns and stuff I can recognize.

[01:10:34] The phrasing of it is probably a little more lost on me, the actual poetry of it.

[01:10:39] But it seems like they're talking about the same things for the most part.

[01:10:42] To talk about a guy we're going to be talking about for many months, though,

[01:10:45] it's like the same sort of effect as Lynch using like backwards speak.

[01:10:52] Where you're like, well, what's unsettling is that it sounds close to words that I should be able to process.

[01:10:59] It's not just someone going like, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, you know?

[01:11:03] He did consider that, obviously.

[01:11:05] That was the first take.

[01:11:07] But even outside of the backwards, like, I mean, I guess this is more in the return,

[01:11:12] but the kind of like the I am the arm type thing.

[01:11:15] And the, yeah.

[01:11:18] He doesn't know what you're talking about.

[01:11:20] Oh, the darkness, future, past, fire, walk with me.

[01:11:24] All that kind of stuff that feels sort of plucked from your subconscious.

[01:11:27] His weird phrasing. Yes.

[01:11:29] Yeah.

[01:11:31] But yeah, I love that too.

[01:11:33] I mean, and then going back to the animation thing.

[01:11:35] Yeah. The idea that at any moment somebody could lose their mind.

[01:11:39] And the way that you represent that when you're animating is like just a matter of drawing them slightly differently.

[01:11:47] A different light comes into somebody's eyes or they go a little absent.

[01:11:51] And then it's very a lot.

[01:11:53] I mean, I know some people who this movie terrifies them.

[01:11:56] It's scary.

[01:11:58] Past the point of being able to actually watch it.

[01:12:00] Not that scary.

[01:12:02] Yeah.

[01:12:03] But it is scary.

[01:12:04] And it's like that uncanny stuff of like you are suspending your imagination or your disbelief, I guess, in watching these animated human beings talk and thinking of them as humans.

[01:12:16] That's just what we do when we're watching animation.

[01:12:19] There's an innate abstraction.

[01:12:21] Yeah. But when that is betrayed, when you are forced to remember you're now watching something that was drawn by people that isn't a person.

[01:12:29] It's like when somebody has a mask on or something.

[01:12:32] Yeah.

[01:12:33] It's like your brain feels like it's being betrayed in the way that like their brains are being betrayed by themselves.

[01:12:38] It's very it's such a great way.

[01:12:41] That's why animation is so perfect for this story.

[01:12:43] I mean, it's also it is the aspect of Combs like filmography and his worldview and his style as an artist that feels like it most directly influenced Darren Aronofsky, who does fully credit him as a major influence of just like how scary it is to lose your mind or sense of reality.

[01:13:03] That it's not just something that's like cool. It's upsetting.

[01:13:07] Yeah. And I think around this time, too, I think it is very, you know, you quoted the bit about the Internet from the film.

[01:13:15] Like, I think that there are a lot of things at this time.

[01:13:18] But like, I think that Paranoia Agent dabbles in this a lot.

[01:13:23] One of my favorite series, Serial Experiments Lane, which I talk about too much, but it's just like one of my favorites is literally about sort of the blurring of online life and reality.

[01:13:35] And it is and it's and it's one of these things where in that one also, it's like you could do the one to one physical representation of this.

[01:13:45] But just having that fuzziness of animation there feels like such an invitation to explore these ideas of what it feels like to have this sort of land of the imagination online.

[01:13:59] And then have to like, then you look up from your computer and you're back in the room with your friends and your people.

[01:14:05] But that kind of repeated transition from one form of life to another, just kind of breaking people's brains a little bit.

[01:14:14] Yeah. Well, I think we're living through the aftermath of that.

[01:14:19] Like in that culturally most of us went through about a year of primarily living online.

[01:14:27] Like, I mean, I continue to fucking try to do the cleanup on a year of my life where I basically was only socializing performatively through screens.

[01:14:40] You were wearing normal costumes and all that.

[01:14:42] Totally. But also just like never talking to people to their face and being like, well, I'm seeing my friends. I'm talking to people. I'm staying in touch with them.

[01:14:49] But there is some tangible difference.

[01:14:52] Yeah. No, I noticed no difference. And I love Zoom to this day.

[01:14:56] I came out of it better. Stronger.

[01:14:58] I flew across the country so that we could combat this very phenomenon.

[01:15:03] Correct. And so you could see Clifford.

[01:15:06] So I could see Clifford. My friend Clifford.

[01:15:09] Can we say this quickly?

[01:15:11] I was in a normal headspace at that time.

[01:15:13] Do you know what happened at the Clifford screening?

[01:15:15] No. Oh, my God. Yes. There's no other time to talk about it.

[01:15:18] The good folks at Hollywood Entertainment.

[01:15:20] They did a big Q&A with Martin Short and a bunch of other folks who worked on Clifford.

[01:15:26] Yes. It was short. Richard Kind.

[01:15:29] The Kind Bar was there.

[01:15:31] The Kind Bar was there. He was just walking in the back row of the theater pacing back and forth.

[01:15:35] I almost bumped into him.

[01:15:37] Yeah.

[01:15:39] So tracks perfectly so far.

[01:15:41] And he was one of the writers.

[01:15:43] And they opened it up to Q&A at the end.

[01:15:47] There was a moderated Q&A and then they open up to the audience for questions.

[01:15:50] Always good to do, especially with a movie like Clifford.

[01:15:52] Ben was prompted to ask a question.

[01:15:55] Alex from Hollywood Entertainment was like tapping Emily on the shoulder and was like,

[01:16:01] Ben should ask something.

[01:16:03] So what did you ask?

[01:16:05] Ben was like very nervous.

[01:16:07] I would be nervous too. I hate asking questions at like one of those things.

[01:16:08] It's just they're so often not good.

[01:16:12] Yeah, sure.

[01:16:14] And the questions were pretty good.

[01:16:16] I would say it was a fun Q&A because it went really fast.

[01:16:19] All the questions were short and the answers were short, ironically,

[01:16:22] especially when Martin Short was answering them.

[01:16:24] The answers were really short.

[01:16:26] They were short and sweet. I like it when it's more of a comment though rather than a question.

[01:16:29] Oh, you love that?

[01:16:31] That's my second favorite thing. My first favorite thing is when someone stands up and tells you about the thing that they were working on.

[01:16:36] Oh, so good!

[01:16:38] I like to hear about what other people are working on.

[01:16:40] So you did both of those things, right?

[01:16:42] You were like, so I have in my hand a script called Night Eggs.

[01:16:44] I pulled out a screenplay.

[01:16:46] Now I have more of a comment than a question.

[01:16:48] But all the questions I'd say were pretty good.

[01:16:50] But also Martin Short, it basically he didn't have a good answer for them, had such a good comeback.

[01:16:56] He would just make fun of everybody.

[01:16:58] Burned. So it was like the mood was just growing and growing and growing.

[01:17:01] And then he kept on being like, I think that's our last question.

[01:17:04] Wait, should we do one more?

[01:17:06] And Alex is like pointing at the moderator, pointing at Ben, being like, look at him.

[01:17:12] And Ben is sheepishly like kind of holding his hand up by his shoulder.

[01:17:16] And I'm like, Ben, up in the air.

[01:17:18] So I very respectively addressed him as Mr. Short.

[01:17:21] And I said that I'm interested in what you brought to the character from your own life.

[01:17:27] I, as a kid growing up watching this movie, I really loved seeing myself up on the screen.

[01:17:33] Absolutely.

[01:17:34] They got a laugh, including Martin.

[01:17:37] It broke Martin.

[01:17:39] And then he said, please escort this man out of the building.

[01:17:42] That's funny.

[01:17:44] It was fun. It was pretty fun.

[01:17:46] And then he said, I don't think there's any of myself in this performance.

[01:17:49] I was very obsessed with the bad seed. I think I was just riffing on that.

[01:17:52] Yeah. I love an honest answer like that. It's just perfect.

[01:17:57] It was a lot of fun.

[01:17:59] It was great.

[01:18:01] Love that.

[01:18:03] Clifford also exists in a liminal state between reality and dream at all times.

[01:18:08] Basically, you're like, is everyone going to wake up in this movie?

[01:18:11] Like, is that what's going on?

[01:18:13] Well, you know, like in a lot of anime, like children are voiced by actual adults.

[01:18:16] So Clifford is almost like a live action adaptation.

[01:18:20] That's like the original American anime.

[01:18:22] The original cowboy bebop 2022.

[01:18:25] He's also kind of like one of the weird dolls in this movie that starts talking to you.

[01:18:29] Has kind of like Clifford-y vibes. Right?

[01:18:31] Yeah. Yes.

[01:18:33] One other thing I wanted to just shout out from the opening sequence.

[01:18:36] I mean, there's lots of great moments in it.

[01:18:38] But particularly, there's a part where she goes to visit this man asleep at his computer at an office.

[01:18:47] And she kind of tucks him in and she puts this jacket over him and then goes like skipping off

[01:18:53] in a manner identical to Mima, like evil Mima from Perfect Blue.

[01:18:58] Oh, interesting.

[01:19:00] Kind of dreamy skip.

[01:19:02] And I don't know, there's something about it.

[01:19:04] I love that like you come out of this sequence of four films,

[01:19:08] starting with maybe the most nightmarish one, Perfect Blue.

[01:19:12] And this figure of this sort of figment of the imagination

[01:19:17] that's sort of haunting the main character and skipping blithely through her dreams

[01:19:23] and her subconscious. And now we kind of see that form,

[01:19:27] that exact sort of image as this healing or at least benign sprite-like character,

[01:19:35] this dream girl type figure.

[01:19:37] And I just like, I love that you kind of come out of the filmography

[01:19:41] with that transmuted in some way like that.

[01:19:44] I just, there's something really beautiful about it to me.

[01:19:47] That's a good point. Yes.

[01:19:49] It's just so hard not to impose these things on the movie as a final work.

[01:19:55] I know.

[01:19:57] But even if it wasn't the final work, I just think like kind of that

[01:20:01] that is clearly a movement, an image that is stuck in his head

[01:20:05] through these years, like through his filmography.

[01:20:07] And now it kind of takes on a different meaning.

[01:20:10] And this idea, like what's going on in the subconscious of these characters,

[01:20:13] which is like Cone constantly is using animation to get into a state of mind,

[01:20:19] more so even than like represent things that are physically impossible.

[01:20:24] It's about being able to show what, yeah, just represent a movement.

[01:20:30] Expression of something that is internal.

[01:20:34] And just it feels like it has been processed at this point

[01:20:39] from being merely this malevolent kind of haunting thing.

[01:20:44] The world of fantasy, the world of, you know, I think in Perfect Blue,

[01:20:49] a lot of it is sort of what's the word I'm looking for?

[01:20:53] Not repression, but the refusal to grow up.

[01:20:58] Yeah.

[01:21:00] There's a word for that.

[01:21:02] Arrested Development, Peter Pan syndrome, you know, whatever.

[01:21:04] And this sort of, yeah, that is sort of what that meme represents.

[01:21:07] And, and, and, you know, spoilers.

[01:21:10] Somebody in her life actually trying to literally keep her

[01:21:15] from growing up and moving on in her life.

[01:21:18] And I think that there's a more interesting conversation going on

[01:21:23] in this movie about what, what dreams represent to people,

[01:21:28] what dreams represent to him, like just the possibility of them

[01:21:32] of not just being this regressive, not repressive, regressive,

[01:21:37] um, tendency.

[01:21:39] Yeah. Well, even just the whole, this movie is built on the idea of,

[01:21:44] oh, if we had the technology to be able to actually see other people's dreams,

[01:21:50] what would this help us literally understand? Right?

[01:21:54] It's like medical professionals want to be able to use this

[01:21:58] to unpack and cleanly just unravel this thing that is inherently like

[01:22:05] an inscrutable through line in all of our lives that you can never totally make sense of.

[01:22:11] Yeah. And one of the things I've, I've wrestled with over,

[01:22:15] I was just reading an essay I wrote about this movie way back in the year 2010.

[01:22:20] Bright Wall Dark Room, check it out.

[01:22:22] It's a, it's an okay essay, I would say.

[01:22:25] The essay is garbage, but I like the publication.

[01:22:27] Right. Great publication. Um.

[01:22:29] David!

[01:22:31] I wasn't even sure it would still be up because they wiped a lot of it.

[01:22:33] That's even worse!

[01:22:35] I'm not guys that wrote a fine essay.

[01:22:37] Um, but I think I was just skimming it.

[01:22:40] And I think one of the things I was wrestling with in it,

[01:22:43] which I still kind of wrestle with to a degree is like the idea that

[01:22:46] in a lot of ways, I wouldn't say wrestle with it anymore.

[01:22:49] I've sort of resolved it in my mind.

[01:22:51] But that the chairman and his sort of what he represents in this argument

[01:22:57] is on its face, like pretty morally good.

[01:23:03] Like what he... Interesting.

[01:23:05] What he wants, like what he's defending is sort of the sanctity of these

[01:23:10] inner lives of these psyches and the idea.

[01:23:13] I mean, it's very like whatever you don't you think about if you can

[01:23:16] or whether you should type thing with science and all of that.

[01:23:19] And you know, you guys are playing God essentially.

[01:23:22] And in a lot of ways, I think that you could make an argument that that is right.

[01:23:28] That to have the ability, if we did have the ability to

[01:23:32] somehow intrude in metal with people's subconscious,

[01:23:37] that would be dangerous.

[01:23:40] Yeah.

[01:23:42] Not a good thing. And also, aside from whatever earthly consequences

[01:23:47] that could have, like I think that Inception is sort of about that more

[01:23:51] of just like what could occur in the real world as a result of messing

[01:23:55] in people's subconscious.

[01:23:57] Like it's just wrong at a certain point.

[01:24:00] It is private.

[01:24:02] It's like, you know, it's like leaking somebody's nudes,

[01:24:06] but to the nth degree, you know?

[01:24:09] Like your dreams are far more revealing than, you know,

[01:24:13] like physical body or whatever.

[01:24:15] There's a season of the television series Sailor Moon

[01:24:22] that is the entire like the bad guys in it are...

[01:24:26] They steal people's dreams.

[01:24:28] That's the attack.

[01:24:30] There's always some attack that everybody has like every season.

[01:24:34] It's like, oh, they steal their hearts.

[01:24:36] They steal their whatever.

[01:24:38] And then I think it's like the fourth season.

[01:24:40] And they stole our hearts, the viewing public, of course.

[01:24:42] Oh yeah, of course.

[01:24:44] But the way these villains do it, they hold up this mirror to people's chests

[01:24:48] and they like extract the dream.

[01:24:51] And the way that it's actually really disturbing for children's animation,

[01:24:55] the way that it's represented is like a rape.

[01:24:59] It is somebody pinned down screaming as this sort of extremely private

[01:25:05] inner thing is taken from them.

[01:25:07] And I think that is one way that you could view this technology,

[01:25:11] the whole idea of somebody partaking of somebody's dream

[01:25:15] is that it is intrusive and violent.

[01:25:18] But I think that's what is so interesting about this film ultimately

[01:25:21] is that it is about the like if you want to take the metaphor really far,

[01:25:27] the intruding into people's dreams is what film is, is what storytelling is.

[01:25:32] And Millennium Actress, I think, really explores that

[01:25:36] and kind of puts that on the page at least as far as his ideas.

[01:25:40] Her memories are also her movies are also all of our memories.

[01:25:44] Exactly.

[01:25:46] Movies are voyeuristic, but they're also dreams.

[01:25:48] Yeah, and they're also implants.

[01:25:50] No one has ever made movies seem voyeuristic.

[01:25:52] No one's ever tried that in a movie before. It's never happened.

[01:25:55] Griffin, how's your sock drawer looking?

[01:25:57] Unbelievable. You know why?

[01:25:59] Why?

[01:26:00] Filled to the brim with bomb-ass!

[01:26:02] Well, maybe if you're not like Griffin, it's time for a spring cleaning and refresh.

[01:26:07] Not like Griffin. Griffin doesn't need to spring clean at all.

[01:26:09] No, I'm sort of the gallant in this situation.

[01:26:13] You, the listener, are the goofus who needs to follow my example.

[01:26:16] Ben, you know from Goofus and Gallant.

[01:26:17] Ben looked at me confused. We all know from Goofus and Gallant.

[01:26:20] We all know from Goofus and Gallant, right?

[01:26:24] Honestly, I don't think he knows what Goofus and Gallant are.

[01:26:27] From Highlights Magazine, Goofus and Gallant.

[01:26:30] Goofus does things wrong, Gallant does things right.

[01:26:33] Talk about that damn dentist magazine.

[01:26:35] Exactly.

[01:26:37] And often, Ben, I'm the goofus of the world.

[01:26:39] Everyone laughing and pointing and doing it.

[01:26:41] It's saying, don't do what Griffin does. He's doing it all wrong.

[01:26:43] But when you crack open the old Griffey Neumes,

[01:26:47] sock drawer, for that brief moment, I'm a gallant.

[01:26:50] Because it is overflowing with Bombus and everyone should follow my lead.

[01:26:55] Here's the thing with Bombus, David, and I learned this the hard way.

[01:26:59] And I'm wearing them right now. I'm wiggling my toesies in them.

[01:27:01] We're not doing like War and Peace level Bombus ad here.

[01:27:04] Once you try Bombus, you'll never look at socks the same way again.

[01:27:07] They're good socks!

[01:27:09] They're obsessed with the details, David!

[01:27:11] Of course! And they have a great mission.

[01:27:13] Foot hugging, honeycomb arch support. Who else is going to give you that?

[01:27:15] Anything you purchase, socks, tees, underwear.

[01:27:18] They donate them to someone facing homelessness.

[01:27:21] Well, that makes me feel even better about myself!

[01:27:23] They've got a 100% happiness guarantee.

[01:27:25] So if anything wrong happens or you don't like the purchase,

[01:27:27] they'll just do whatever they can to replace it or make it right.

[01:27:29] See, this is when I crack open my sock drawer.

[01:27:31] I'm not just patting myself on the back and going looking good Griff.

[01:27:34] I'm also thinking about the equivalent socks that others received for every pair I bought.

[01:27:40] Get comfy this spring and get back with Bombus.

[01:27:42] Head over to bombus.com to learn more.

[01:27:43] And use code check for 20% off your first purchase.

[01:27:45] That's bombas.com slash check and use code check at checkout.

[01:27:48] bombas.com slash check.

[01:27:50] Bombus.com slash check.

[01:27:52] Bombus, the most successful company in the history of Shark Tank.

[01:27:54] Shark Tank. OK, now we're done.

[01:27:56] Well, I wrote a skeet on bluesky.com that I'll paraphrase.

[01:28:02] Wait a second. Are they actually called skeets?

[01:28:04] They are called skeets.

[01:28:06] Skeet skeet on the blue sky.

[01:28:08] Blue skeeting.

[01:28:10] Because it's sky.

[01:28:12] Yeah, OK.

[01:28:14] I think blue sky for a while was like, no, they're called posts.

[01:28:17] And like the people were like, we've decided they're called skeets.

[01:28:19] And we were like, fine, Jesus.

[01:28:21] But Emily, you skeeted.

[01:28:23] I skeeted about I had been watching.

[01:28:26] I had been watching Millennium Actress and I'm trying to find it.

[01:28:32] Well, you should go to the window or to the wall maybe to find it.

[01:28:35] Fuck, that's what it is.

[01:28:37] Yeah, skeet skeet skeet.

[01:28:39] Yeah.

[01:28:41] No, I went doing a cool thing.

[01:28:42] No, I went doing OK.

[01:28:44] I'm not.

[01:28:45] Griffin's upset that I don't even know about which part.

[01:28:47] That was good joke math.

[01:28:49] But in a way where I couldn't even laugh at it, like it felt like it knocked the wind out of me.

[01:28:54] Oh, fuck.

[01:28:57] Wasn't it great how Usher did the Super Bowl and I was like, is Lil Jon going to show up just to say, yeah, oh, yeah, there he is.

[01:29:03] Yeah, yeah, yeah, he flew in.

[01:29:05] I didn't watch. He got on mic and went, yes?

[01:29:08] Yes.

[01:29:09] Yes. Why?

[01:29:11] I love a return of hip hop Sims.

[01:29:13] Oh.

[01:29:15] Anyway, what my skeet was skeet skeet skeet skeet skeet.

[01:29:19] Oh my God.

[01:29:22] And it's really appropriate for that.

[01:29:25] But I said cinema is a contagious mental disorder, but one that everybody has and is benign with the right treatment like HPV.

[01:29:32] And I think.

[01:29:34] So you got really specific.

[01:29:35] But I do generally think that that is my takeaway from the films of Satoshi Kon.

[01:29:41] And that is that is how I'm able to reconcile the essential correct position of you should not intrude in people's dreams being, well, they've already been intruded in any way by these collective myths that we have.

[01:29:56] And those things are very powerful and shape how we think of everything, how we think of ourselves, like how we think of ourselves as being within a narrative.

[01:30:08] There's I'm going to completely botch this.

[01:30:11] I think it was like Freud who was basically like films have done more than any other narrative to shape our subconscious and like give us a structure within which to imagine our lives.

[01:30:25] This isn't a I'm completely paraphrasing.

[01:30:27] Sure.

[01:30:29] The invention of the movie was the invention of the movie star and the ability for us to identify and think of ourselves as movie stars within a movie with a beginning and an end.

[01:30:38] And that is can be a really corrosive thing.

[01:30:43] A lot of people doing a really a lot of fucked up shit because they think they're in a movie.

[01:30:48] I don't mean like that.

[01:30:49] They think it's not real, but they're thinking of themselves as being in these kind of linear stories that revolve around them.

[01:30:56] And I think like taken taken in the wrong way, stories can be like kind of toxic, but then they can also be wonderful and they can open up your world in all sorts of ways.

[01:31:07] And so I think there's like a pessimistic and optimistic way of looking at this, which is what I think this movie is about.

[01:31:12] What do you think Freud would have thought about the fact that Viggo Mortensen would eventually play him in a movie?

[01:31:16] Because he didn't really like movies.

[01:31:18] Here's what he would say. He'd go, I would never fold a pizza that way.

[01:31:22] Do you understand the joke?

[01:31:23] I do.

[01:31:25] Implying that he was playing the character of Sigmund Freud in the film Green Book, which happened to win Best Picture.

[01:31:30] Yes, Best Picture of the Year, which is a confirmation that movies are good. What were you saying?

[01:31:34] Do we have more Freud business to get to?

[01:31:36] I think that's such an interesting comment. I never really thought of that before, but there's an evolution to dreams, right? Like cavemen, primitive men, people, they dreamed.

[01:31:48] It's an inherent thing that all human beings do, but the language of dreams has definitely changed.

[01:31:53] I'm going to call dreams the original technology.

[01:31:56] I don't know about that actually.

[01:31:59] How about this? The human brain, the original technology.

[01:32:03] And dreams, its greatest app.

[01:32:06] Software.

[01:32:08] I would say the video games are probably also having an effect too on people.

[01:32:13] Absolutely. And I think that's where you see these big schisms and how one generation relates to the next is like what's its primary, in a way, like what's its primary mode of storytelling?

[01:32:24] Like I don't dream in video games because I don't play them. I don't dream in TikTok because I'm not on TikTok.

[01:32:29] My dreams are incredibly cinematic, unsurprisingly.

[01:32:33] My dreams apply the language of film to whatever I'm trying to work through.

[01:32:38] I mean, dreams are this unconscious, subconscious processing of whatever things you're going through, right?

[01:32:46] There's this fucking shorthand of people saying like, I don't want to hear you describe your dreams. I love hearing people describe their dreams.

[01:32:53] I feel the way that Emily does where sometimes someone's describing their dream and it's kind of like a little whatever.

[01:32:58] If you're a bad storyteller.

[01:33:00] But sometimes I'm like, you're, you are telling me something quite vulnerable.

[01:33:04] There's a real intimacy of like what is the thing? In the way that I like waking up and being like, why the fuck did I dream about that?

[01:33:11] You know, like why did that person come back into my head?

[01:33:14] And sometimes you're like, well, oh right, because I fucking saw this right before I went to sleep.

[01:33:19] But other times you're like, what is weirdly, why is my brain using this as the metaphor to work through whatever I'm worried about or feeling good about or whatever it is.

[01:33:28] And there's this feeling of like, we watch movies, right?

[01:33:34] The people in this room.

[01:33:36] And if there is an odd choice, we go like, huh, why did they do that?

[01:33:41] Like we're thinking about the intent of the people who made the thing.

[01:33:44] Why was that written? Why was that done in this way? Why did the actor deliver that line?

[01:33:48] Why was that in their mind and why are we seeing it this way?

[01:33:50] There's nothing in here that if something really bumps, you're like, was that a deliberate choice that I don't understand or a mistake that was made?

[01:33:59] But either way, there's some reason that ended up that way.

[01:34:02] But you wake up in the morning from a dream and you can have that same struggle of like, why the fuck did that happen in that way?

[01:34:08] Except you are. It's all you.

[01:34:10] It's you. Yeah.

[01:34:12] It's you unconsciously and you're wrestling with like, I mean, that and that's the intimacy of it.

[01:34:15] Like, why the fuck did I dream that?

[01:34:17] In a way that is upsetting.

[01:34:19] But you're like, but I made myself watch that.

[01:34:22] Yeah. That then becomes I mean, then the friction arrives when somebody tells you, oh, you were my dream last night.

[01:34:30] And like that feeling that you get when somebody tells that to you where you're like, I mean, I don't know about anybody else.

[01:34:36] But I aside from the potential horny implications of that, there is the thing of like, what was I doing?

[01:34:42] Yes. Right.

[01:34:44] Because I didn't have any control over that person. What was the I mean, that's like called a projection and inception.

[01:34:47] But like, what was my projection up to?

[01:34:50] Your imagination of me. What was it doing?

[01:34:52] Sometimes they're like you were a bug and I squash you with a giant rock.

[01:34:55] It's like, cool, great.

[01:34:57] OK, that's what you think.

[01:34:59] But that is like the one very like poignant idea that dream scenario has is that people start holding it against him.

[01:35:06] Yeah. There's a good version of a better version.

[01:35:09] It doesn't execute well.

[01:35:11] Right. The figures out how that would go.

[01:35:13] And then it goes from a novelty to being like, I'm made uncomfortable by your presence because in my dream last night, you did something strange.

[01:35:19] Yeah.

[01:35:21] The best part is when he just walks weird.

[01:35:23] Yeah. Well, Cage is like he's good at putting Cage in a scenario where he gets to act out dreams is smart.

[01:35:29] And the rest of that movie is not very smart.

[01:35:31] So then the idea of having that weird feeling of I was in somebody else's head, I was doing something, manipulating them in some indirect way.

[01:35:39] Not because I had direct puppet like control over that person in their mind, but because whatever I've done in the real world somehow influenced what I was doing there.

[01:35:49] And like the idea, I guess the idea, the conceit of Faprika is like, what if you actually did have direct control over that?

[01:35:55] What if you could be this illusion but have some sense of purpose within somebody's mind?

[01:36:02] Go ahead, Griffin Newman.

[01:36:04] And then I want to say something that might sort of take us off this topic.

[01:36:08] And it's not going to be about Viggo Mortensen playing Frank.

[01:36:11] I was going to say a thing that took us off a topic. So you go off topic first and then I'll go into a different topic.

[01:36:15] Emily, just to throw up, you said like the, you know, the villain of this movie is ultimately revealed to be the chairman.

[01:36:21] Inui, I think that's his name. He's the chairman.

[01:36:24] He looks like the crib keeper.

[01:36:26] He's in a wheelchair.

[01:36:28] He's right. He's in a wheelchair. There's some sort of vague notion that maybe he wants to kind of transcend his body. Right?

[01:36:34] This is what I was going to say if I can branch off this quickly.

[01:36:36] You mentioned earlier that this is the film where Cone…

[01:36:39] Branch? What is this? Trolls the movie?

[01:36:41] A character my therapist famously thinks I'm very similar to.

[01:36:45] She's correct.

[01:36:47] That she used dream technology to look inside my brain.

[01:36:52] And she's like, you are Branch. You can't stop the feeling. Or you have to not stop the feeling.

[01:36:56] You should start stopping.

[01:36:58] Please branch off my thought.

[01:37:00] Branch? Like from the Trolls movie?

[01:37:02] You said that he was experimenting more with like characterization.

[01:37:09] And he… his first three films, I'd say the first two in particular, have pretty literal character designs.

[01:37:16] Obviously there's some degree of stylization inherent in animation.

[01:37:19] But they're pretty rigid on model characters that have fairly realistic human proportions. Right?

[01:37:24] Tokyo Godfathers, the main trio, gets a little bit more into classic cartoon silhouettes.

[01:37:29] There are different shapes. Exactly.

[01:37:30] But they're not stretching it as much.

[01:37:32] The three doctors in this movie look like Professor X, Toad and the Blob.

[01:37:36] Right? Like they are all very extreme.

[01:37:39] Yes. Obviously. Right. The chief is the Professor X.

[01:37:42] Sorry. The chief is the Toad. He's a little guy.

[01:37:45] The chairman is the Professor X type who's this like reedy old man who's bald.

[01:37:49] He's very willowy. And he looks like a slender man in a suit.

[01:37:52] And then Takeda is like this crazy like design where the inventor who's like…

[01:37:58] He's overweight but it's like sometimes…

[01:38:00] He can fill up an elevator.

[01:38:02] Exactly. It feels like he changes size depending on the scene.

[01:38:05] It feels like you're seeing a visual representation of his self-consciousness of his own size.

[01:38:10] The feeling of like I've walked into a room that's a little too small for me now and I'm pouring over.

[01:38:16] Yeah. I mean if we want to talk about Tokita a little bit…

[01:38:20] Sure.

[01:38:22] I mean I haven't gotten to the end of it.

[01:38:25] You said the book is not very nice.

[01:38:26] I mean but also Japanese people are really mean to fat people in general and they're very open about body shaming.

[01:38:33] So there's that. And I mean there's some of that in this film and I know…

[01:38:37] Also 30 years old.

[01:38:39] Yeah. And some people like bristle against that a bit.

[01:38:42] I think what it gets to in the end and it's interesting to think about it in context of the hoodlum thing you're talking about is like…

[01:38:52] And I mean I know this isn't like nice or like politically correct necessarily.

[01:38:58] But at the end when she's talking about him and why she loves him, Atsuko, one of the things she says is that like you eat everything.

[01:39:07] And there's a way to see that as like a very body shaming type comment.

[01:39:13] But there's something about his gleeful consuming of everything.

[01:39:18] In the book he is so…

[01:39:20] The thing about him is he is childlike and he's very enthusiastic and he wants to do do do everything and just forge forward which is very different from her character.

[01:39:29] And it's sort of about the balance between the two of them that like you could as an Atsuko or any kind of scientist type look on him with like ridicule and be like, well he's a genius but he also just has no self-control.

[01:39:42] But the idea that like that sort of…

[01:39:44] The voracious appetite is directly tied to him being a genius.

[01:39:47] It is the amount that he processes and collects and engages with.

[01:39:52] He's childlike and he's like sharing dreams. What a lovely idea.

[01:39:57] It's so great. What could go wrong?

[01:39:59] Like he can only think of it as like a dream, as like a hope, you know, an imagined future.

[01:40:03] But there's all these fucking AI tech bros who get on the news and they're like, if we keep pushing this technology we're going to perfect civilization.

[01:40:10] There is no potential downside.

[01:40:11] And it's interesting to think about that, that sort of, you know, tech bro mindset as being just childlike as opposed to malevolent.

[01:40:21] Because I think right now, you know, with how much it's taking away people's jobs and people's artwork and stuff like that, like it's easy to just look at it as like the product of a purely evil, like negligent to the point of evil mindset.

[01:40:36] But like what if they're just like little children and we have let little children be driving the wheel of everything in society?

[01:40:44] It's a kind of more complex way of looking at it a little bit and even more of a reason that there should be more checks and balances.

[01:40:52] Also like a hoodlum cone without like the cone setting boundaries.

[01:40:56] Cone cop.

[01:40:57] I just think it's interesting that the three doctor characters are the only three in the quote unquote reality section of the movie who do look that extreme.

[01:41:08] They look like it's you're like, am I in the dream right now or not?

[01:41:12] That's their realistic state. And as you said, it is even fungible when you're in reality.

[01:41:18] And there are three people who seem to be at odds with their own physical forms.

[01:41:23] Like there is this and it's sort of what Etsuko was talking about at the end of the movie when she talks about why she loves him.

[01:41:30] Just like how surprising it is that like the greatest brain in the world is housed inside this body.

[01:41:35] Which feels like a mean thing to say, but what she's really saying is just sort of like, and it's the whole relationship we have to dreams of like, there is this whole part of you, conscious or unconscious, that is not directly connected to your physical body.

[01:41:50] It's almost random.

[01:41:51] And if you are spending all this time in this place, in this dream state where things are more changeable and dynamic, where somebody can show up in any form they want, then it's all the more reason to value that part of them and not like the physical form that you interact with.

[01:42:08] And Tokita has this like great shame. As you said, David, it feels like Inui has like this almost contempt for his body or at least a desire for a greater body.

[01:42:22] Well, that's why he like idolizes Osanai, the like one normal looking person.

[01:42:27] In a boring way, but he's not.

[01:42:29] In a boring hot way.

[01:42:30] And he's like, I control your body. Like he keeps saying that.

[01:42:33] In the dream world. To be clear, right, that's the hot doctor guy who you initially are kind of like, oh, he's like a researcher and he's helping and it turns out he's in league with the chief.

[01:42:45] He's also obsessed with Atsuko slash Paprika.

[01:42:50] Everybody is.

[01:42:52] The single most disturbing image in the movie for me is when...

[01:42:55] Is him like putting his hand inside her.

[01:42:57] It's really, really...

[01:42:58] It's like he's like killing her.

[01:43:00] Yeah, it's very troubling. It's among some of the more troubling.

[01:43:04] But it's sort of like he's ripping off her dream persona.

[01:43:08] But the way he's doing it, it's like it obviously is this like physical assault.

[01:43:13] But as his hand is going through her, she's like rippling like waves.

[01:43:17] Yeah.

[01:43:19] Forky didn't like it.

[01:43:21] Forky liked the movie to be clear, but was distressed by that scene.

[01:43:22] Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of people kind of physically invading each other's bodies in this while they're in the dream state, like Paprika kind of getting Shima, the director, out of his dream, out of the parade dream by sinking herself into him and blowing him up.

[01:43:42] Right. Yeah, and then he pops.

[01:43:44] Yeah. And like I was... I know David hated this, but I was like, that is so much cooler than a kick.

[01:43:50] I was like...

[01:43:52] You could shoot somebody or you could sink into their body.

[01:43:56] It's not shooting. What I like is that it's falling because that is what happens.

[01:44:00] No, there is falling. Yeah. No, it's great. It's great. It's great. But there's just something...

[01:44:04] Five stars best picture.

[01:44:06] It's so fun to just like that's just such an interesting way to think about. It's almost like you get too big for the dream that you're in.

[01:44:12] Yeah.

[01:44:13] And you have to like, yeah, you just can't exist in it anymore, which is sort of the other way it feels like when you if you don't have the falling thing out of a dream, sometimes it feels like, oh, my God, my consciousness is too big for this space anymore. I have to leave.

[01:44:26] I dream fairly lucidly, but to an extent that I find frustrating where I don't really feel like I have control over my dreams, but I have intense awareness of the fact that I'm in a dream.

[01:44:36] And there are those moments where I'm like, this dream is going in a direction other than what I want to be seeing.

[01:44:42] And I'm trying to pull it back. And it does have that feeling of almost like vertigo of falling where I'm like, no, don't have that character turn into this other character.

[01:44:51] Don't have me leave this room.

[01:44:53] Yeah.

[01:44:55] But this movie does not have clear rules like kicks or such. I mean, no, by design trying to establish a set of rules for the audience to understand so that we can enjoy it.

[01:45:04] It's an instruction manual turned into an action film.

[01:45:07] But for this movie is like in you're watching characters in real time be like, how would I get out?

[01:45:13] How does this work? There is techno babble in it, but there is.

[01:45:16] And there's not an obvious sort of path. Yeah.

[01:45:19] Yeah. I mean, the thing about it is that these characters all start off the movie thinking this is a technology that they know the rules of and how to control and that it so quickly goes off the rails.

[01:45:29] And that the fact that there are no rules and that basically anything can happen like in a dream is sort of what takes them by surprise and causes causes all sorts of troubles.

[01:45:39] Yeah. I mean, we could talk about the parade a little bit, which like and just like how we get there, which is that the I mean, at first they think that Tokita's assistant, Himuro, has has is the one who's basically stolen the DC mini and is is is imparting his own sort of obsessions.

[01:46:01] Right. And initially we he's pegged as kind of like he's the villain.

[01:46:05] Yeah. Right. Like, yeah, this is his he caused this problem.

[01:46:09] Yeah. Yeah. But he's really just a symptom of a larger problem of like this machine is sort of out of control.

[01:46:16] And we see that like, you know, several of the other people who work at this institution who are also presumably using this have sort of caught this virus essentially that they think at first that Himuro has caused.

[01:46:28] And that is manifested as this parade, which feels like it feels almost like you guys are a play.

[01:46:38] Katamari Damacy, I played it. You're rolling. You're rolling. You're picking stuff up. You're a big ball.

[01:46:43] You're this big snowball that you just try to get as big as possible and pick up every and you can only you you the bigger you get, the bigger things you can pick up.

[01:46:52] It's like being a planet with a greater and greater force of gravity.

[01:46:54] It's like an insurrection of dream items. Yeah. Like, yeah, that weird object in the dream. And it's like, what if all of them came together?

[01:47:02] Yeah. And none of them faded away. And the capital in this case is fucking reality. Damn. Oh, fuck.

[01:47:10] Sorry. You were saying. No, I was just saying like, but the other thing about it is like that nothing is fading away, that it's all staying.

[01:47:17] And like, yes, that's right. You don't wake up and it goes away. Yeah. And that's one thing about dreams is that like things are ephemeral in dreams ultimately.

[01:47:25] Like, it's really annoying when you have a dream like I was having last night because I'm a little bit sick that you can't get rid of.

[01:47:31] Yes. That doesn't go away. You feel like you're stuck in this loop.

[01:47:34] It was something to do with shampoo. I can't remember. But it was just like I was going back and forth with these different shampoos and I couldn't get out of the shampoo cycle.

[01:47:42] It was it really sucked. I mean, that's to me is what Millennium Actress is about, is that you can't get out of this one fixation, this one dream, and you are just cursed to repeat it over and over and over again, which is a little bit.

[01:47:54] That makes its way into this as well. But like the one of the most menacing things about the parade dream is that it is just getting bigger and bigger.

[01:48:04] There's no it doesn't shift. It doesn't go in phases. It's just like a tumor that just gets.

[01:48:09] And it's got a serious case of the Kool-Aid man. He was bursting through walls like the least.

[01:48:15] But there's also one musical sting that is very repetitive, right? That does not change. And I don't know if you folks have this as someone who has bad sleep habits. I know you're in a similar boat, Ben.

[01:48:30] There are times where like my alarm has been going off for 30 minutes and I'm like, why am I not waking up? Sure. Why did this not get to me?

[01:48:39] My dream starts to justify it as a logic. You're missing the kick. Yes. There's like part of the reality where it's like I'm in some other room and for whatever reason, some weird sound is happening.

[01:48:51] And me and the other people in the dream are trying to locate the source of the sound. And 30 minutes later, I wake up and I'm like, oh, my alarm has been going off for half an hour.

[01:48:58] And the parade music has that feeling to me of just like, why is this just this like constant loop?

[01:49:06] I had it stuck in my head also all night last night while I was dreaming, which was a lot as well because we had just watched the movie before.

[01:49:15] Yeah. And just having that loop on. Yeah. And then there's like so literal. It's just like I watched a movie and it made its way into my dream. I watched the movie about the dreams and their contagiousness and then I got it.

[01:49:31] I like caught it and it was in my dream. It's just kind of magic. The original technology.

[01:49:37] The original technology. The killer app. It's wild that this movie also like in a way that feels armed, it builds to a midway point where the characters are talking about dreams inside a movie theater.

[01:49:52] Well, one character is dreaming of the version of himself that did become a filmmaker and they just start explaining film language.

[01:49:58] Yeah. And illustrating. He defines the line. A lot of people could watch this and learn something. Wow.

[01:50:06] I'm joking. Nobody crosses the line. It's cool that he crosses the line and shows you how unsettling it is.

[01:50:11] And then does a flip at it too.

[01:50:13] But I noticed this because I watched it two times in succession. So there is a moment where they cross the line early on, which is so key.

[01:50:19] And I always wonder why this part is so exciting to me. It's right before Shima jumps through the window and enters into the parade.

[01:50:29] And he's running down. It's after he's had his big gibberish monologue and then he starts running down the hall and he says, now, right now. And it flips.

[01:50:38] You do that. There's two cuts on him from the same angle, from the same distance, but opposite angle. And that's the last thing you see before he jumps through the window is like this sort of uncanny flip into a place you're not supposed to be.

[01:50:53] A lot of high level filmmakers cross the line on purpose to destabilize you by design.

[01:51:01] No, it's as a flex. It's as a fuck you to their film professors.

[01:51:04] The rules, quote unquote, of film language. Right?

[01:51:06] Or you don't want to disorient people by doing this. So you can do it to disorient people.

[01:51:11] Because the whole point is you're basically trying to create, maintain a sustained state of dreamlike comfort.

[01:51:17] If you do things like that, it rattles people. You want to sort of obscure the craft. Right? You want invisible edits.

[01:51:26] You want camera movements that aren't showy because you just want to keep people submerged in the thing rather than reminding them of the artificiality of what you're creating.

[01:51:34] No, when I make a movie, it'll be star wipes for every cut. Not just transitions between scenes.

[01:51:40] Who are you? Trisha Cook?

[01:51:42] That's cool. You should do that.

[01:51:45] That movie is well edited.

[01:51:47] I agree.

[01:51:48] It's fucking fun.

[01:51:50] I think people don't like it, but I'm like, no, this is intentional and this person knows what she's doing.

[01:51:54] But the whole fucking Godard thing was that he was like anyone trying to create a realism in film is inherently being dishonest.

[01:52:01] It's like a medium of lies. And so I'm going to do like jump cuts and cross the line and put continuity errors in there because the only honest thing to do is to constantly remind people.

[01:52:13] I know that some people jam and they think that's so exciting, but for me, I find them completely exhausting.

[01:52:19] Some of his movies I love.

[01:52:21] I don't.

[01:52:23] Not one? What's your favorite?

[01:52:25] Now remember you're trying to not piss the fans off.

[01:52:28] What's your favorite?

[01:52:30] Masculine and feminine.

[01:52:32] Oof.

[01:52:33] You dislike that one?

[01:52:35] Yeah. That one's rough.

[01:52:37] Woman is a woman. Do you hate that one too?

[01:52:39] Yes, I hate that one too.

[01:52:41] Well, you've established you hate all of them.

[01:52:43] No, I like Alphaville.

[01:52:45] Alphaville rules.

[01:52:47] David's yawning.

[01:52:49] I don't mind it. I've always found it like kind of like when I read about it as a teenager, I was like, well, that's going to be my favorite movie of all time.

[01:52:56] And I've never been, I've watched it several times, never been able to quite click into it.

[01:53:01] I like the early ones because I'm a basic bitch.

[01:53:05] And admittedly, I haven't seen them all. He's quite prolific and there's probably, maybe there's something I like more.

[01:53:12] My wife almost divorced me after I made her go see Weekend with me at BAM.

[01:53:15] Really? You were married at that point?

[01:53:18] No, we were. My wife almost dumped me.

[01:53:20] Pre-divorced.

[01:53:21] Because if you're ever Weekend, you're like, ah, it's set in a traffic jam. Like it's so clever and all that.

[01:53:26] And you're like, well, that's like 40% of the movie. And that part is already kind of a tough hang.

[01:53:30] And then there's people eating sandwiches while someone monologues about communism.

[01:53:34] I mean, look, the thing is that like I get at that point in history that people did want to deconstruct film.

[01:53:41] Yes, of course. That's what you know.

[01:53:43] He's so vital to that.

[01:53:44] And at some point you have to do that. It's like being a teenager.

[01:53:47] You've spent your childhood being swept up by these stories and the way in which they alter your reality and your consciousness and your dreams and all of that.

[01:53:59] And then you're like, what if we just fucked with it? And what if we gave the middle finger to film?

[01:54:05] And that's all very well and good. I just don't care.

[01:54:08] I know that that was a necessary moment of evolution for the form. And it's just not what I'm interested in for as far as why I like this art form, what I'm interested in with it.

[01:54:20] I love to have my beliefs suspended. I love to have the edges blurred. That is what draws me to it. I feel like there's just such possibility in that.

[01:54:30] I'd love to see a pig herd sheep better than any dog ever could.

[01:54:33] I know. It's like, and I believe it when it's happening. I absolutely believe that pig is the best sheep herder in history.

[01:54:42] He is. There's a record of it. It's called Babe the Movie.

[01:54:45] And he's a really good pig.

[01:54:48] But that'll do. That will do.

[01:54:50] That's enough. That's enough. That's cop. That's cop.

[01:54:54] George Miller is like, ah, but that'll do.

[01:54:57] How funny would it be if the actual final line was like, okay, that's enough.

[01:55:00] That's enough, Paprika. Don't get too fucking big for your bridges.

[01:55:05] Don't go crazy now.

[01:55:07] Don't move to a fucking city.

[01:55:09] I'm throttling us into plot mode. I know this is not a movie we can like really easily go beat by beat on.

[01:55:17] But obviously we talked about the opening stuff where she's dealing with this guy's dream.

[01:55:22] And then, yes, like she works at this company. The DC mini has been stolen.

[01:55:27] Nonsensical things are starting to happen. People are losing their minds and doing inexplicable things.

[01:55:33] And when you enter their dreamscape, it feels like all the dreams are mashing together into a giant Katamari Damacy snowball.

[01:55:39] Shima jumped out the window and they cannot tell if he lost his mind because of spending too much time in there or if someone had hijacked his mind and was acting within him or what?

[01:55:51] But something weird is afoot.

[01:55:53] So, yes, the chairman is always like sitting in front of books and being like, I am very normal and not the villain of the movie at all.

[01:56:01] Nothing weird is going on with me. I look like a fucking Slenderman ghost.

[01:56:08] He just comes in and says absolutes about science.

[01:56:12] And I'm banning the device. That'll fix it. Obviously that fixed nothing.

[01:56:16] No only a Sith deals in absolutes. That should have been the first tell.

[01:56:18] But so his what, Emily, you because you were saying he kind of has a point.

[01:56:22] What is his apart from wanting to transcend his own body and kind of control this world?

[01:56:27] What is his goal in like doing all of this?

[01:56:32] I mean, that's a great question, right? Because I think I think part of it is that he becomes intoxicated by the dream world that he's trying to control.

[01:56:42] Like he becomes a victim of it as well.

[01:56:44] This sort of I mean, one of the themes of why everybody experiences when they enter this parade dream is like they are at the top of this pile of stuff.

[01:56:54] Basically, the kind of king of it. Yeah.

[01:56:57] And there's like a megalomania to this dream.

[01:57:00] This this false sense of power that is the thing that everybody, you know, leads people to jump through windows because I think they can do whatever they want.

[01:57:08] And I think I think the way I've read it, at least these last couple of times, is that like he is not immune to that and that he becomes the biggest mania, megalomaniac of all.

[01:57:20] Like trying to basically turn the real world into his own kind of playground where he is all powerful, has has legs, has giant legs because he's huge.

[01:57:29] And it's just like the opposite of everything you know that he's constrained by in the real world.

[01:57:33] It is the thing that is disturbing, though, when you have to witness someone who is experiencing a psychotic break from reality is there is a sense of very high stakes to them.

[01:57:43] Yeah. Like they are caught up in a reality that feels very urgent and dangerous to some degree.

[01:57:49] You know, like you witness people who just are very intent that what they're talking about is right and correct and that this needs to be solved immediately.

[01:57:58] Be it like, you know, the video that went viral of the woman yelling at the guy on the plane or things like that where it's just like, you need to believe me this is happening right now.

[01:58:07] And it's not real.

[01:58:09] I really wanted that to be the beginning of paprika.

[01:58:12] Yeah.

[01:58:14] Dude, I was just having like a really shitty time. I was like on some weird combo of things.

[01:58:19] Not to go off fucking like stoner on the floor about it, but it's like that's what movies are. Right?

[01:58:24] Like movies are a woman standing there and going, oh, my God, he's there. He's killing me.

[01:58:29] Yeah. And there's no one off camera. And then later they shoot Robert Anglin once they get him out of the makeup truck.

[01:58:34] Sure. Absolutely.

[01:58:36] And those are the fake stakes that you're creating. I also just want to call out Takeda in the dream world exists in the form of like an old wind up robot.

[01:58:45] Wind up robot.

[01:58:47] Yeah, it's like a toy robot.

[01:58:49] Where his head is like a TV screen, which makes a ton of sense for his psychology of just like I wish I had like a controlled mechanical physical form.

[01:58:57] Yes.

[01:58:59] Where my thoughts could just be like projected on a screen on the outside of my body.

[01:59:03] Yeah.

[01:59:05] And I didn't have to think about like any organic matter.

[01:59:07] Yeah.

[01:59:09] Yeah. I'm like a brain in a robot.

[01:59:10] And I feel like it comes from this robot that's on his shirt. That's also at this like dreamland, like shut down, shuttered down amusement park that both him and Himuro are obsessed with, which is very haunting. A great place to set something like this.

[01:59:27] The parade feels like it's made up entirely of like childhood.

[01:59:30] Yeah.

[01:59:32] Because even like the dancing appliances in it look older. They're like retro 50s, 60s fridges and things like that.

[01:59:36] It's just a childish concept, right? Everything coming to life. A sort of Brave Little Toaster scenario.

[01:59:41] Stuffed animals.

[01:59:43] Yeah. And the way that they in the dub, or not in the dub, in the original dialogue, at least the way that people speak, especially at the end when it merges into reality and you have everybody joining the parade and like chanting these things.

[01:59:56] The kind of cadence of the chant is very like old timey Japanese, like festivals and stuff where people, there are several where people kind of do these coordinated dances and it's kind of has that da da da da da da type cadence.

[02:00:12] And that's very like old timey Japanese.

[02:00:15] Okay.

[02:00:17] It's also like in, there's a little bit of that in Spirited Away at certain points where people kind of speak in that.

[02:00:22] There's a more ceremonial.

[02:00:23] It's sort of ceremonial, sort of folksy a little bit. And that's kind of where that comes from. But what was I going to say about Tokita?

[02:00:34] Tokita who eventually goes in by himself in his energy of like, I'm sure I can solve this. Like we just need to figure it out and immediately get sucked into the dream.

[02:00:43] Yeah, this naive belief that like a personal connection, like in reality, a grounded connection with somebody can supersede the power of this dream, which is just like snowballed at this point.

[02:00:58] I did want to call one thing, which is like, I'm sure that there's, Kona has his own inspiration for the theme park in this, but like if anybody wants to see the real version of Dreamland IRL, you can just go in Berlin to this thing called Spree Park.

[02:01:16] Spree Park?

[02:01:17] Spree Park. It's a shutdown amusement park from, it might be like, it might be pre-war honestly. I can't remember. It's really haunting.

[02:01:29] No, it's post-war. It's from the late 60s.

[02:01:32] Is it the one in Hannah, the Joe Wright film?

[02:01:35] Possibly. It's got a big Ferris wheel that's maybe still there.

[02:01:38] It's all like covered in moss and stuff. It is one of the most, like you feel like you're walking into a movie, like you can't believe it exists in real life type places and that definitely. I saw that after I had seen Paprika multiple, multiple times and was like, oh my God, I'm in Paprika right now.

[02:01:56] Yeah, this looks pretty cool. I mean nothing's cooler than fucking abandoned amusement park.

[02:02:04] And there's like some like painted, you know, faded like metal sculpture or whatever.

[02:02:09] I mean what you're talking about, about like nature overtaking the inorganic.

[02:02:14] When you have like man-made objects that like are now covered in moss and shit. I always find that spooky. Evocative.

[02:02:21] But like again, like these things that both Himuro ostensibly because we never really meet him and as such and Tokita are obsessed with are these things of childhood. Like the robot that Tokita turns into is this figure from this park that's also on his shirt. He's obsessed with all these little toys.

[02:02:40] The apartment full of doll heads. I can't relate to it.

[02:02:43] You weren't part of that at all.

[02:02:45] Yeah, I mean I can only imagine what Griffin's contribution to the giant parade would be if he was here.

[02:02:50] The parade just quadrupled in size.

[02:02:53] I would just take a look directly behind me. That's like the opening. That's just the first.

[02:02:59] For the listeners at home, there's a lot of memorabilia and toys Griffin has brought here.

[02:03:05] No, I mean I've contributed so much to this shelf.

[02:03:08] You were actually struggling to see something I brought.

[02:03:11] I want to just like do just take a picture of Ben in front of this like and really frame it so that all you can see is the toys and just play the Sissuma here.

[02:03:20] It does. You should post that.

[02:03:22] It's pretty. It's a lot. It's a lot. We should definitely do that. But yeah, I but I think like this idea that sort of wrapped up in the idea of regression and the idea of this all being tied to childhood.

[02:03:36] Which of course it would be if you're talking to me in psychoanalytic terms. This is all stuff that has to do with your deep the deepest wounds, the most primal things that happen to you as a kid.

[02:03:45] Those are the things that still find their way into your dream. You're still dreaming about being late to class even when you're like in your 30s.

[02:03:51] Fucking hatred. It's awful.

[02:03:53] It sucks.

[02:03:54] And like that being a part of I think what somebody like the chairman is sort of frowning upon is like we don't want to, you know, muddle in this stuff like there is something like, you know, let's all be grownups.

[02:04:10] Let's not, you know, muck around in these or encourage, I guess, these dream states, these regressive dream states.

[02:04:18] Well, it's because it's coming from this place of like the human psyche is a thing that can be solved. It can be perfected in this very like tech line of thinking.

[02:04:27] Yeah.

[02:04:28] Of like you can just get the bugs out of any system.

[02:04:31] Yeah.

[02:04:32] Okay. There's two things that happen in the dream world that we need to talk about. One is so you got Osanai.

[02:04:39] Osanai.

[02:04:40] Osanai who is the hot young doctor who's sort of the, you know, enforcer for the chief.

[02:04:45] Sure.

[02:04:46] In the dream world. He is one obsessed with Chiba and Paprika as we said and sort of like peels her, right? But then there's also this big battle he has with Kanekawa that is his demise that is very like uns...

[02:05:03] There's this like unspoken thing where he's kind of in charge of the dream and then Kanekawa kind of takes charge of the dream.

[02:05:08] Sure.

[02:05:09] And it's this dream Kanekawa is having of like a hotel hallway with a body falling that he shot and it's him and like what does it mean?

[02:05:19] And perspective keeps distorting.

[02:05:21] Right. And when he's running the walls melt and all that and like when then he's thinking about it with Paprika when she's trying to help him through the dream, he's realizing right this is me reckoning with the choices I made as a young pan and the path I followed. We already talked about all this.

[02:05:34] A young pan.

[02:05:35] Young pan, you know, like a Joe Wright kind of a vibe. Two of his movies have come up.

[02:05:39] Wow.

[02:05:40] I'm going to think of a third to squeeze in here.

[02:05:42] He's kind of a soloist in terms of...

[02:05:45] Oh.

[02:05:46] He used to be doing a duet with his young friend and then he went off. What are you?

[02:05:50] Just if we ever do Joe Wright that's the one we're going to be kind of like white knuckling.

[02:05:54] Yeah.

[02:05:55] Fucking soloist.

[02:05:56] Oh my god.

[02:05:58] And then he, you know, Kanekawa finally like takes control and shoots Osanai.

[02:06:03] Sure.

[02:06:04] Right?

[02:06:05] Yep.

[02:06:06] Killing him both in the dream world and the real world and sort of self-actualizing all at the same time.

[02:06:11] Yes.

[02:06:12] And it's kind of like I love how like we've been seeing this image from the start of the movie and it's no point does anyone ever say to him like here's what you have to do or like here's what the thing is with this, you know, this recurring dream of yours.

[02:06:24] Sure.

[02:06:25] And when it happens it does make a sort of dream logic he sends to the viewer of what has happened.

[02:06:30] Yeah.

[02:06:31] Or what has changed about that.

[02:06:33] Griffin's playing Disney Emoji Bliss right now.

[02:06:35] I am not on my laptop. That's not how it works David.

[02:06:38] I knew that would make you so mad.

[02:06:41] Yeah.

[02:06:42] So that's one thing, you know, like that's like one little mini arc in the dream world.

[02:06:47] Right.

[02:06:48] That is interesting.

[02:06:49] Yeah.

[02:06:50] And it's how those two storylines converge because for a long time it's like Paprika doing her own kind of renegade psychology with Konokawa and going into his recurring dream and trying to figure that out.

[02:07:01] Meanwhile, like it's just Otsuko for a long time who is investigating the viral dream, the parade dream.

[02:07:09] Right.

[02:07:10] And then, you know, we kind of have hints from early on that they're the same person.

[02:07:14] But when she finally like acknowledges it, it becomes like a spoken thing.

[02:07:17] It's like the first time she dives in to investigate it for herself.

[02:07:20] And that's when she discovers this Osanai and the chairman link.

[02:07:25] Right. And Paprika, right.

[02:07:26] Paprika obviously is her dream avatar essentially.

[02:07:30] Right.

[02:07:31] Dream adventure.

[02:07:32] Right.

[02:07:33] And it's funny because in the book she literally like dresses up like that.

[02:07:37] Like when she goes to meet the character who takes the place of Konokawa in it, like she goes literally to the radio club.

[02:07:46] Like it's a real place.

[02:07:48] She changes her outfit and puts on a wig and paints freckles on her face to look like Paprika.

[02:07:55] Sure.

[02:07:56] Which is so funny.

[02:07:58] When I realized that in the book, I was like, that's absurd.

[02:08:01] Like I love her just being this sort of shifty thing that exists because she looks completely different.

[02:08:08] She does.

[02:08:09] She doesn't look like Atsuko with a wig.

[02:08:11] It's not just a different outfit.

[02:08:13] Her bone structure is different.

[02:08:14] Yeah.

[02:08:15] And but that's what like.

[02:08:17] Which is cool.

[02:08:18] Yeah.

[02:08:19] Yes.

[02:08:20] Which we like.

[02:08:22] Like I think like that even in the real world you can see what you want to see in somebody else.

[02:08:29] But within the dream world, I mean she is functioning as like a literal escort for her clients.

[02:08:34] Not escort as like a term for it, but she's like the one who is guiding them through and creating some sense of security and understanding for them.

[02:08:43] And then the last like 20, 30 minutes of this movie, the detective is basically like stuck without her.

[02:08:49] Yeah.

[02:08:50] And the two bartenders played by Kohn and Satsui, who you have to assume are like extensions of his own psyche, are the ones guiding him through.

[02:08:59] Like it's so fascinating metatextually that the writer of the novel and the film become the two characters.

[02:09:07] The guides.

[02:09:08] Who ultimately have to like lead him through to catharsis.

[02:09:11] Yes.

[02:09:12] And it's the, yeah, but it's ultimately like, yeah, those are his constructs.

[02:09:15] He doesn't have Paprika anymore.

[02:09:17] Like he can.

[02:09:18] He's doing it himself.

[02:09:19] Yeah.

[02:09:20] He can be on his own.

[02:09:21] And that's like, that's the growth.

[02:09:22] Yeah.

[02:09:25] But the Paprika thing is also important.

[02:09:28] Is she important?

[02:09:30] She's an important character.

[02:09:32] Okay.

[02:09:33] The convergence of the two characters as things go on, right?

[02:09:38] Yeah.

[02:09:40] The implication to me is like when Osanai like peels her, that kind of frees Paprika in a way and makes Paprika her own character.

[02:09:51] Yes.

[02:09:52] Right?

[02:09:53] Like when she's returned, right?

[02:09:54] She has become basically just a dream person.

[02:09:56] Yeah.

[02:09:57] Yeah.

[02:09:58] And they have in the big sort of showdown at the end of the movie where there's suddenly a gigantic hole in the city and the chief is turned into a Godzilla and is walking around.

[02:10:09] And all this stuff.

[02:10:10] Paprika is like completely unempathetic to Tokita.

[02:10:14] She's like, forget him.

[02:10:15] I don't want to save him.

[02:10:16] Like he sucks.

[02:10:17] He's annoying.

[02:10:18] And like that must be part, like the further she's getting away from like that.

[02:10:22] Yeah.

[02:10:23] But then.

[02:10:24] Atsuko is the one who has to like elect to help him.

[02:10:27] Right.

[02:10:28] And like admit her love for him.

[02:10:30] And I love that because like when, you know, we see it as them interacting as two humans, but it's like giant Atsuko just like holding robot Tokita.

[02:10:38] And Paprika looks at like after she sort of made her declaration of love and she's like Atsuko's dreaming.

[02:10:46] And it's so sweet because it's like that's also been like a running thing is that she can't actually dream.

[02:10:51] Right.

[02:10:52] She's kind of freeing up that side of herself.

[02:10:53] Yeah.

[02:10:54] So that's what's been freed like from the separation.

[02:10:56] Again, like the showdown at the end is, you know, surreal.

[02:10:59] But like.

[02:11:00] It's a little crazy.

[02:11:01] Yeah.

[02:11:02] Paprika essentially jumps into Tokita to make the sort of baby that then eats the chief, like sucks him up like a vacuum cleaner.

[02:11:13] Like Tokita.

[02:11:14] Right.

[02:11:15] Like I eat everything.

[02:11:16] Right.

[02:11:17] Yeah.

[02:11:18] And then grows and turns into a giant kind of hybrid Chiba, you know, Atsuko, Paprika, naked woman.

[02:11:25] And then goes poof.

[02:11:26] Yeah.

[02:11:27] Yeah.

[02:11:28] Which is cool.

[02:11:29] Yeah.

[02:11:30] Nolan ripped that off frame for frame.

[02:11:31] It's so creepy when Leo does that.

[02:11:33] Yeah.

[02:11:34] In the reception.

[02:11:35] Yeah.

[02:11:36] This becomes a giant naked lady.

[02:11:37] Yeah.

[02:11:41] I mean, there's something to me that's so I love I love the idea of this and it goes back to the childhood thing.

[02:11:50] It's like, you know, only this child, only this like naive baby figure can have the power to kind of dispel all this and actually like be so voracious.

[02:12:00] So like incurably voracious that you can kind of bring balance back to a world taken over by chairman like figures.

[02:12:09] And there's something very hopeful and like, you know, like I don't know.

[02:12:13] I think that as wild as that imagery is, I think there's something super like moving about it.

[02:12:19] Well, this is also one of those movies with a perfect final line, like a final line where you're like it knocks out where you're like, Jesus fucking.

[02:12:27] It's so good.

[02:12:28] It's not too clever, but you're like, there's the whole movie right there.

[02:12:31] There's not a single word that needs to be said after this.

[02:12:33] Mm hmm.

[02:12:34] One adult, please.

[02:12:35] A term we use all the fucking time is movie going freaks that we do not imbue any larger meaning on.

[02:12:41] You're just telling people how much you need to pay for your ticket.

[02:12:45] Right. I guess we must buy tickets fucking online now.

[02:12:48] Well, you say one adult and you have to acknowledge I am an adult who's going to go see a movie and I'm going to engage with it.

[02:12:54] Like and he's going to see a movie called Dreaming Kids, which honestly, let's check out Dreaming Kids.

[02:12:59] I want to know what happens in that movie.

[02:13:01] He's like avoided watching his whole adult life.

[02:13:03] Yeah. Right. Yeah.

[02:13:04] And now that he's finally like processed.

[02:13:07] Yeah, he can go see he can self identify as an adult and go to the movies and start like go to a movie about the Dreaming Kids.

[02:13:13] Yeah. And and and view it as a healthy adult, like a well adjusted, ideally adult.

[02:13:20] And I that's like that to me is such a con theme.

[02:13:26] Yeah. Ultimately, like this isn't even a spoiler.

[02:13:30] I mean, I started rewatching Paranoia Agent because it is well, it's one of my favorite TV shows ever.

[02:13:36] Who likes to vibe?

[02:13:37] I'm I love I love to vibe.

[02:13:39] I that that show is one of my favorite things that's ever been made, let alone like one of my favorite TV shows.

[02:13:45] And the opening of it is so that's why I say it feels like kind of.

[02:13:50] Yeah, it's like sketches in preparation for paprika in a lot of ways, because it opens with this montage of everybody in Tokyo.

[02:13:59] Like on the crammed into the train, like busy walking in the street and everybody's on their phones.

[02:14:05] And it's this kind of Greek chorus of everybody being like, I can't do this.

[02:14:10] Like, I couldn't help it.

[02:14:12] I was forced to do this, like all these very kind of abstract expressions of helplessness of like I don't have any power blaming things on other people.

[02:14:23] And it's very much Cop Cone coming like the series not to spoil anything is a lot of Cop Cone coming in and being like,

[02:14:31] these are like escapist fantasies that people are falling into to avoid essentially being adults.

[02:14:40] And I think ultimately, like as fun and imaginative and all this freewheeling stuff that Cone is, which we love him for.

[02:14:46] I think the reason I really love him is that he really is grappling with like what it means to grow.

[02:14:52] Yeah.

[02:14:53] Like, and like reckon with the real world in a way that I think he doesn't, I think as a human being want people to let go of that,

[02:15:04] even as he is letting us like into these wild fantasies.

[02:15:08] It's always about like, well, what are you going to do in the world?

[02:15:11] What are you going to do with yourself in your in your real life?

[02:15:15] Yeah.

[02:15:16] And I just love that. I think he's I think it can be like quite poetic through his in his hands.

[02:15:22] I mean, one of my favorite movies that I've watched so many times is the documentary that Lance Bangs and Spike Jonze made about Maurice Sendak.

[02:15:32] Yeah.

[02:15:33] That was them filming interviews with him over years as they were developing and then filming the Where the Wild Things Are movie called Tell Them Anything You Want.

[02:15:40] Yeah.

[02:15:41] And that is a lot of Maurice Sendak like dealing with. I have no idea. I don't understand why I got stuck on childhood,

[02:15:49] why I am like stuck just kind of making works about the nightmares of children basically.

[02:15:55] Like it is not a choice. It is not that that's like what I like as a business strategy or career strategy.

[02:16:02] Sure. Right. Yeah.

[02:16:03] He's just like in some way my psyche got stuck on the dial.

[02:16:07] Yeah.

[02:16:08] And in other ways, I feel like I've always been a 90 year old man. Like it's a 90 year old guy being like, I'm going to die tomorrow.

[02:16:14] But also and be like, I felt this way my whole life. I was forced to grow up.

[02:16:18] Right.

[02:16:19] You know, but then also like I cannot artistically move past basically the feelings of an eight year old and doing them in a somewhat mature way.

[02:16:27] But I do think a lot of the most interesting artists in sort of like childlike areas, right.

[02:16:36] People who work in areas of like high genre or high fantasy or sort of childlike logic or whatever,

[02:16:42] always kind of fighting themselves internally of like, I don't understand why this is what I keep going back to.

[02:16:50] Some are, but I think there's a lot of indulging in the thing itself.

[02:16:54] Like I guess more less and I guess stuff made expressly for kids.

[02:16:59] And I'm thinking more of just like the biggest entertainment of our.

[02:17:03] Yeah. That we are living in a permanent regressive adolescence.

[02:17:06] And that's why even, you know, beyond the obvious talking points like Marvel or whatever the fuck or just endless remix of Star Wars,

[02:17:15] even just having pop music, we're just doing all the songs that we liked when we were teenagers all over again.

[02:17:21] That we're kind of stuck in this loop without a future.

[02:17:24] And that does feel like a sickness. That feels like some sort of social ill right now.

[02:17:35] I hate to be like judgmental about things, but when you look at it as a whole, it does feel like we're a little bit stagnant right now as a culture.

[02:17:43] And I think that's the kind of thing that...

[02:17:46] Everything feels good right now. Everyone's brains. Everyone's ways of processing reality and talking to each other.

[02:17:53] Yeah, it's great.

[02:17:54] And having fun.

[02:17:56] Yeah. We're all having fun.

[02:17:58] Things like this or like Matrix Resurrections where it does feel like the storyteller is going like, why are we doing this?

[02:18:04] Yeah, why are we still doing... Yeah.

[02:18:05] And yeah, I think the Wachowskis are incredible at talking about this stuff.

[02:18:10] They are like, you know, among the few like sage, big scale pop culture storytellers who have a grasp of that, I think.

[02:18:20] But yeah, I think that's sort of the debate going on in all of Cone's work about is this going to be an opiate of the masses?

[02:18:37] Or is this going to be something that can actually heal people and let them move forward with their lives?

[02:18:44] And that it's both ultimately. It kind of functions as both and you've got to live with that.

[02:18:50] I think that is very well said.

[02:18:52] Do you think Dreaming Kids, which is such a great title, is like something Cone wanted to make?

[02:18:59] It's some kind of like, you know, fantasy project of his that he was always thinking about?

[02:19:05] Or is it more like, no, this is the kind of thing that he would have been waiting to see?

[02:19:11] When you put it in the dossier, there was the sort of...

[02:19:13] Dreamland thing?

[02:19:15] The short?

[02:19:16] The project that he died trying to get off the ground was called The Dream Machine.

[02:19:23] The Dream Machine or Dreaming Machine, right.

[02:19:25] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like a sort of young adult fantasy.

[02:19:27] That was him explicitly trying to make a film for children for the first time.

[02:19:31] But it was going to be all about robots. So I guess it's a vague connection at best.

[02:19:36] I mean, the thing that I think of when I think of this sort of argument about regression and pop culture is always...

[02:19:44] I'm just going to be like, guys, you can like what you like. Enjoy the movies that you enjoy.

[02:19:51] What's she going to shit on now?

[02:19:53] I have my opinions about things and that's fine. And it has nothing to do with what you think about or what you like.

[02:19:59] Enjoy what you enjoy.

[02:20:01] But, um...

[02:20:03] I'm not talking to you guys.

[02:20:07] The emotion picture Inside Out...

[02:20:11] I thought you were going to say Clifford. Sorry.

[02:20:13] No, we all love childhood, obviously.

[02:20:16] Are we about to meet joy or anger right now, Emily?

[02:20:21] I think I'm meeting anxiety.

[02:20:23] I'm meeting fear.

[02:20:25] Exciting new characters we're meeting this summer in Inside Out 2.

[02:20:28] All my criticism is based in fear.

[02:20:34] But one of the things that irritated me so deeply about that movie was...

[02:20:39] I mean, this is a larger complaint I have about Pixar in general.

[02:20:43] Or like the ethos of Pixar in general.

[02:20:46] But like the whole conceit of...

[02:20:49] Bing bong?

[02:20:51] The imaginary friend?

[02:20:53] Wait, this is Clifford coded and that's Richard Kind.

[02:20:57] Yeah, I mean, nothing against Richard Kind.

[02:21:00] It'd be weird if you were like, what I don't like about it was Richard Kind.

[02:21:03] He's bringing what he needs to bring.

[02:21:06] He feels miscast.

[02:21:08] But there's something in that film about how this figment of childhood that got this child through some things...

[02:21:18] Some imaginary friend from a time.

[02:21:21] Needs to sacrifice himself.

[02:21:23] But it's not...

[02:21:25] The film doesn't have a healthy way of looking at it.

[02:21:28] I don't think.

[02:21:29] Because it still tugs at your heart strings and you as the viewer don't want Bing Bong to die.

[02:21:33] And I think a more responsible film would be like, no, fuck him.

[02:21:37] Kick him over the cliff.

[02:21:39] Wait a second.

[02:21:40] These films are for children.

[02:21:42] I know, I know, but I'm just saying...

[02:21:45] Again, I also don't think that you should make a film for children about the brain of a child like that.

[02:21:51] I think it's just like...

[02:21:52] I think it can only wreak havoc.

[02:21:54] But I just personally, it's distasteful to me and unnatural.

[02:22:01] You're watching Herman's head and you're like, this is personal.

[02:22:04] Let's just remember Emily started these statements with don't get mad at me.

[02:22:08] So you're not allowed to get mad at me.

[02:22:10] You know, I've only seen Inside Out the one time.

[02:22:12] Really?

[02:22:13] I saw it at the Cannes Film Festival.

[02:22:15] It was there.

[02:22:16] Do you like Inside Out?

[02:22:17] You like Inside Out.

[02:22:18] I like it quite a bit.

[02:22:19] I only saw it the one time.

[02:22:20] That is funny because your review at the time was, I can't wait to see it again.

[02:22:25] Really?

[02:22:26] Yeah, I feel like I remember your review of Inside Out or at least your fucking tweet out of the theater being like...

[02:22:33] I'll watch this one again.

[02:22:35] The whole time I was watching it, I was thinking how badly I can't wait to watch it a second time, which is the ultimate compliment or something said like that.

[02:22:42] Emily had the opposite reaction.

[02:22:45] I can't find a tweet by myself about it, but that doesn't mean anything.

[02:22:48] I was going to say something about Inside Out.

[02:22:50] Well, I just feel like Toy Story 3 has the same problem where it's like, aren't you sad about this?

[02:22:56] And I'm like, giving your toys away?

[02:22:58] No!

[02:22:59] It's why I think Toy Story 4 is better than Toy Story 3.

[02:23:01] I think Toy Story 4 is better than...

[02:23:03] Toy Story 4 makes Toy Story 3 look like Toy Story.

[02:23:05] Yeah, I mean, I think Toy Story 4 has become my second favorite Toy Story in the rewatching that I'm doing endlessly with my child.

[02:23:13] But anyway, that's not important.

[02:23:14] But we have not done Inside Out yet.

[02:23:17] You haven't been watching 3 with her, right?

[02:23:19] We watched it a couple times. It's her least favorite. The only thing she likes is the big baby, which I agree with her. The big baby is good.

[02:23:24] Like, look, I think it's a great idea to make a movie for kids about their toys. That's cool.

[02:23:29] But I think after a while...

[02:23:30] You're right, it is.

[02:23:31] I know you love them, but like, I just think after a while, it's like, I start to feel like the chairman where I'm like, let kids have their toys.

[02:23:40] Let them like, this is not a narrative that's being imposed on how toys work, what their feelings are, what you're supposed to do with them.

[02:23:49] That's why Toy Story is annoying, where they're like, when you stop playing with your toys, you're hurting a sentient immortal being.

[02:23:54] And I'm like, what, bro?

[02:23:56] I don't like the use of the word annoying here. Rick, go on.

[02:23:58] I mean, it's just, if anything, it's indulgent because I think as a kid, you think that anyway.

[02:24:05] Like, I really assigned a lot of, you know, you anthropomorphize your toys. You assign them emotions. You feel bad when you think they feel lonely.

[02:24:13] And if anything, I think it's like, it would be a more interesting endeavor to make a kid's movie where that's not an issue.

[02:24:20] Where the toys are actually stoked when you're away and they live their own lives and they can be separate from you.

[02:24:28] It's just sort of true in Toy Story, but no one ever says it.

[02:24:31] Until like Bo Peep in the fourth one.

[02:24:33] I haven't seen the fourth one.

[02:24:35] You might like it.

[02:24:37] The fourth one is kind of fucking with the shit you're talking about.

[02:24:40] The fourth is the one that's the most about, like, toy sentience rather than like, we are here for children.

[02:24:46] But anyway, I mean, not important. Can't talk about Toy Story more on this podcast. Illegal.

[02:24:51] We're talking about the relationship between dreams and movies, right?

[02:24:53] And play and childhood.

[02:24:56] There is this fascinating thing. You think about Toy Story being the first film Pixar makes, not knowing the outsized cultural influence it was going to have.

[02:25:02] That it would be a series that would last for decades because we can't ever move on from anything. Right?

[02:25:07] I mean, all these things we're talking about.

[02:25:09] That is a movie of a bunch of adults who to some degree are stuck in a sustained state of permanent adolescence trying to write a movie based on the logic they remember having as a child.

[02:25:20] When I was a child, I played with toys and thought of it like this.

[02:25:23] And that becomes a movie that then codifies a logic that is then applied back to children who are watching it rather than adults reflecting back on it.

[02:25:31] And I was hanging out with my friend and his daughter, who's like four and a half years old maybe.

[02:25:37] And she watches Toy Story a bunch.

[02:25:40] We went to Chuck E. Cheese. She got like fucking toys from the prize in the backseat of the car.

[02:25:44] She was like acting out scenarios.

[02:25:46] All my daughter does is use the toys to act out scenarios.

[02:25:48] Right. And he was like...

[02:25:50] Emily's been witnessing it.

[02:25:52] It's interesting how much she does this and it sounds like Bonnie in Toy Story.

[02:26:00] Like she's in the state where they have voices and narratives and this and that.

[02:26:04] And then I was like, do you think that is that movie getting that right?

[02:26:09] Or do you think because she's been watching Toy Story from such a young age, she is play acting?

[02:26:14] But I like your question.

[02:26:16] But it's an interesting question. I don't have an answer.

[02:26:18] If it wasn't Toy Story, she was play acting. It would be something else she was play acting.

[02:26:22] Totally. But it's the difference of like, are you play acting?

[02:26:26] Like in Toy Story, Andy is play acting a Western with his toys, right?

[02:26:30] That is he is taking the Western stories he has seen in media and he is like...

[02:26:34] Because he's a child that lives in the 1950s.

[02:26:36] Yes. And he's telling them through his toys.

[02:26:39] Whereas if you have movies about kids playing with toys and imbuing them with life, are the kids then acting out?

[02:26:47] Bonnie is such a giga Chad compared to Andy. That's all I'll say.

[02:26:51] I'm not denying that, but I think you're too hard on Andy.

[02:26:54] I fucking hate Andy.

[02:26:56] Man, you know what looks weird when you watch it now? Toy Story 1.

[02:27:00] I only think the Andy of it.

[02:27:02] No, there's other things, but it's mostly the human faces, obviously.

[02:27:06] Yeah.

[02:27:07] The strangest.

[02:27:08] Because Sid looks weird too.

[02:27:09] Yeah. They all have weird mouths that are full of too many teeth.

[02:27:12] Sid's mouth is a tough hang.

[02:27:14] In a way, I think it helps the movie.

[02:27:17] Sure.

[02:27:18] I think he looks monstrous in a way that helps versus Andy.

[02:27:26] Sorry, I can't do an Andy impression. It's impossible. I cannot make my face look like that.

[02:27:30] Yeah, cowboy!

[02:27:32] It's hard. You were just pulling your skin back like Brazil's style.

[02:27:36] Exactly. All right. I'm going to read from the dossier because we're so off track and we're wrapping up.

[02:27:44] Toshi Kon felt like he'd reached the end of an era with the release of this movie.

[02:27:48] This movie premiered at the Venice Film Festival.

[02:27:50] Big deal.

[02:27:51] And then at New York, he had leveled up beyond, like, you premiere at an animation festival.

[02:27:56] His movies would get a lot of pomp and circumstance in Japan and then would premiere at animation,

[02:28:03] anime-specific festivals in the States and then get a release much later.

[02:28:06] But his whole thing is like, he was like, look, I read this before I made any movies.

[02:28:12] I kind of was playing with these themes in my early movies. I have now made Paprika.

[02:28:16] What do I do?

[02:28:17] I've got some closure. I'm not going to abandon this topic, but I do feel like I've reached a goal on this kind of, like, dream, you know, reality thing.

[02:28:25] There's a little bit of, like, the Fosse all that jazz thing where it's like,

[02:28:30] I kind of felt like this was going to be my last movie and I don't totally know what to do with myself now.

[02:28:35] Right.

[02:28:36] Even though Kon was not chronically, you know...

[02:28:39] No, no. But yeah, obviously, like we said, he was sort of planning on making basically a children's film, this dreaming machine movie,

[02:28:47] fantasy adventure targeted at younger audiences.

[02:28:51] But then, obviously, in May 2010, he's diagnosed with pancreatic cancer.

[02:28:56] He says his biggest regret is he didn't get to make the movie that, you know,

[02:28:59] the people he worked with didn't get to finish the movie.

[02:29:03] Some people apparently have tried to salvage it, because there's some storyboarding and stuff like that.

[02:29:09] But then finally we're kind of like, it's his movie. It would never be doable, really.

[02:29:14] Yeah.

[02:29:15] Somebody will AI it. I mean, by which I mean AI the motion picture and not...

[02:29:19] Of course. He was an avid blogger.

[02:29:23] And there was one final blog post he wrote that his family posted posthumously that JJ included here.

[02:29:30] Right.

[02:29:32] But his final blog post is him basically apologizing to everyone who worked with him.

[02:29:38] Right. That's what I'm referencing.

[02:29:39] The notion that their work was going to go wasted because he would not be able to make the film.

[02:29:43] And the end of it is, I haven't been idly waiting for death.

[02:29:46] Like, the need to apologize for like, I don't want you to think I've just been lazily dying.

[02:29:52] Right, right.

[02:29:53] I haven't been idly waiting for death.

[02:29:55] Even now I'm thinking with my weak brain of ways to let the work live even after I am gone.

[02:30:01] But they are all shallow ideas.

[02:30:02] When I told Marium Asan about my concerns about Dreaming Machine, he just said,

[02:30:07] don't worry, we'll figure out something, so don't worry.

[02:30:10] I wept uncontrollably.

[02:30:12] Oh, God.

[02:30:14] Obviously his death was sort of shocking because nobody really knew he was sick.

[02:30:19] And so, you know, it kind of came out of nowhere for 99% of people.

[02:30:24] A lot of filmmakers, both Japanese and American, you know, outpouring of love and sort of influence and all that.

[02:30:35] But, you know, what can you do?

[02:30:40] It is the end of his career.

[02:30:42] And a totemic body of work that has just only continued to grow in every passing year.

[02:30:48] Very true.

[02:30:49] We should do the box office game.

[02:30:52] What are your rankings?

[02:30:54] Yeah, so you can have any ranking you want.

[02:30:57] It's four masterpieces.

[02:30:59] It's tough to really worry about it too much.

[02:31:01] I do think...

[02:31:02] I think it's going to be your personal preference and not what you think is the superior film.

[02:31:06] I have Paprika Blue, Millennium, Tokyo.

[02:31:10] Oh, interesting.

[02:31:11] But I could be talked into a lot of order.

[02:31:14] That was top down.

[02:31:15] Top down. Paprika first, Tokyo last.

[02:31:18] Millennium is my favorite with a bullet, but I feel it just hits certain things for me.

[02:31:22] It's such a griffy movie.

[02:31:23] It's a very griffy movie.

[02:31:24] It is so griffy. Yeah, it's such a good movie.

[02:31:26] When I'm watching it, I feel like it's my favorite movie.

[02:31:29] You're like, this is not just his best movie, but one of the great movies.

[02:31:32] Which is how I feel watching basically all his movies.

[02:31:34] Emily, I feel like Perfect Blue is probably your heart's favorite.

[02:31:38] It's probably my favorite. Yeah, it's my...

[02:31:40] I just think it's...

[02:31:42] I dressed up as Mima for Halloween like two years ago.

[02:31:46] I just think that movie does so much and is so impressive as a first movie.

[02:31:52] But then this one is like...

[02:31:54] He wasn't able to even do the stuff that he's able to do in Paprika yet.

[02:31:58] Like on a technical level and also just where he was as a storyteller.

[02:32:01] And so it's hard for me to even rank those.

[02:32:04] But I think as far as my personal faves, I think it probably goes...

[02:32:09] Yeah, Perfect Blue, Paprika.

[02:32:12] Paprika. God, it's so...

[02:32:14] It's just like Millennium Actress doesn't feel like it should be third.

[02:32:16] Because I love it.

[02:32:18] You don't need to stress it.

[02:32:21] To me, it's kind of like 10, 10, 10, 9 or whatever.

[02:32:26] They're all high level.

[02:32:28] I would say I go Millennium Actress 1, then Perfect Blue number 2,

[02:32:32] Paprika number 3, Tokyo Godfathers number 4.

[02:32:35] But Tokyo Godfathers is still in the top 10% of movies we've ever covered on the show.

[02:32:41] I love that movie.

[02:32:42] Yeah, it's hard.

[02:32:44] They're a bunch of hobos.

[02:32:45] Yeah, they rule.

[02:32:46] Yeah, they're pretty cool.

[02:32:47] They've got some rough edges.

[02:32:49] Well, that's...

[02:32:50] Some unsavory aspects.

[02:32:54] I mean, and then, you know, if we're including Paranoia Agent in that,

[02:32:59] then it gets all fucked up for me because I'm tempted to say that Paranoia Agent is my favorite thing.

[02:33:05] But it's hard because there are some episodes that are stronger than others.

[02:33:08] But as a whole, as like a thing, like I put it up there with Twin Peaks

[02:33:11] as far as just overall creations by somebody that I admire and have been extremely influential to me.

[02:33:19] I haven't seen it yet.

[02:33:21] Yeah.

[02:33:22] We're recording that episode later.

[02:33:23] It's the one thing I haven't checked out yet.

[02:33:25] The one thing you haven't checked out is Paranoia Agent?

[02:33:28] Yeah.

[02:33:29] Well, I know that this is not a Paranoia Agent podcast, but I...

[02:33:34] We're doing it on Patreon, though.

[02:33:35] It will have come out by now.

[02:33:36] Yeah.

[02:33:37] I mean, the other thing that I would say just, you know, that I think has to do with his full filmography

[02:33:42] and that one as well is that I think what he's able to do on that show,

[02:33:46] that he gets out on a spiritual level in Paprika,

[02:33:50] but I think he's able to get on a more minute level in Paranoia Agent,

[02:33:55] is that I think he's, in addition to these individual characters,

[02:33:59] like he's so interested in sociological phenomenon.

[02:34:05] And like what the interconnectedness of people and how everybody's fortunes sort of...

[02:34:11] and the stories that we're telling each other all kind of feed onto one another,

[02:34:16] which is why I think that Tokyo Godfathers, even if it's not my favorite,

[02:34:19] is just so integral to the con-vision to me

[02:34:24] because that movie is so much about a bunch of people from disparate parts of Tokyo

[02:34:28] all kind of eventually being symbiotic in some way.

[02:34:32] And that is such a huge...

[02:34:34] Like I think that's an underrated part of what he's interested in,

[02:34:38] what I think he does well, is like this super humanistic just embrace of everybody

[02:34:44] and all of their concerns and worries and fears.

[02:34:47] And yeah.

[02:34:48] That feels very genuine.

[02:34:49] It doesn't feel like him trying to do some reassuring kumbaya thing.

[02:34:54] No, no.

[02:34:55] It feels in the way of a lot of a certain type of artist

[02:34:59] who is just like overly sensitive to other people's feelings and empathetic.

[02:35:06] Yeah, he's a real empath.

[02:35:07] Which isn't to say selfless, but yes, I think he was a true empath

[02:35:11] who felt like the collective struggles very deeply.

[02:35:14] Isn't there that...

[02:35:15] Like I don't know, there's some meme side by side of Miyazaki and Coen

[02:35:20] where it's like quotes from them and Miyazaki saying something typically Miyazaki doomy

[02:35:26] about how like, you know, everything is shit and I hate it all.

[02:35:30] And then it's like a picture of his work, like a beautiful pastoral thing

[02:35:34] of like animals and streams and stuff.

[02:35:37] And then Coen is like something super humanistic and sweet and empathetic

[02:35:42] and it's like the parade or the guy's head coming out of the side of the chairman

[02:35:48] and exploding into butterflies.

[02:35:49] It's just like, you know, but that just speaks to the balance, I think,

[02:35:54] of all of this stuff is that, you know, you get out certain parts of yourself

[02:35:59] in the stories that you're telling or the things that you're interested in

[02:36:03] that don't necessarily show up in the quotes you give to the press.

[02:36:06] Well, in our movies, like aspirational, representational, or both or neither,

[02:36:12] you know, like what are we trying to do with this medium?

[02:36:15] Which is obviously a great many different things depending on the person.

[02:36:18] Yeah.

[02:36:19] Combined box office game.

[02:36:20] Yeah, so it comes out...

[02:36:21] May 25th, 2007, Griffin.

[02:36:23] Okay, so Spider-Man 3, Pirates of the Caribbean, Outworlds, and Shrek the Third

[02:36:27] are all in the top five, correct?

[02:36:28] Yes.

[02:36:29] It's just, it's uninteresting, but it's...

[02:36:30] You got the top three.

[02:36:31] It was the fucking, that was the month.

[02:36:33] Do them in the right order.

[02:36:34] Okay, so...

[02:36:35] New this week.

[02:36:36] Pirates had just come out that weekend.

[02:36:37] It was the Memorial Day release.

[02:36:39] Number one.

[02:36:40] Number two is...

[02:36:43] Would be Shrek the Third.

[02:36:44] ...second weekend.

[02:36:45] That was second weekend.

[02:36:46] Number three is it's in its fourth weekend.

[02:36:47] Right, because it came out the first weekend.

[02:36:48] Spider-Man 3.

[02:36:49] Right, okay.

[02:36:50] Number four is pretty wild though.

[02:36:52] It's new this week that this film was released somewhat wide, 1600 screens, is Bananas.

[02:36:58] It's an F CinemaScore film.

[02:37:00] I think it's...

[02:37:01] We'll cover it on this podcast one day.

[02:37:03] It's not Bug, is it?

[02:37:05] It's William Friedkin's Bug.

[02:37:07] Yeah.

[02:37:08] What insane person at Lionsgate was like,

[02:37:10] I think we should put that up against Pirates of the Caribbean 3.

[02:37:14] A decision-making process so twisted it feels like something out of Tracy Letts' Bug.

[02:37:20] Everyone's like, ah, fuck, Pirates and Spider-Man and Shrek are all sold out.

[02:37:24] What's this movie?

[02:37:25] I'll walk in here.

[02:37:26] Let's go.

[02:37:27] Oh, Ashley Judd, love her?

[02:37:29] How weird could it be?

[02:37:30] Well, this was a month that broke Hollywood a little bit because the three biggest current franchises at that moment

[02:37:37] decided to all put their third entries in May,

[02:37:39] and people were like, they're going to cannibalize each other.

[02:37:41] There's no way.

[02:37:42] Which they didn't.

[02:37:43] They didn't.

[02:37:44] But they were all bad.

[02:37:46] I think Pirates 3 is good.

[02:37:48] I agree with you.

[02:37:49] But I don't really, you know, all those movies were artistically failures.

[02:37:53] All three were far and away the least popular entries with the public of their franchises,

[02:37:57] even though all three made crazy amounts of money, didn't cannibalize each other,

[02:38:02] arguably boosted each other.

[02:38:03] But the rest of that month was like kind of like everyone was too terrified.

[02:38:08] Like Pirates might bomb next to Shrek.

[02:38:11] Why would we put something out there?

[02:38:12] So there's like Lucky You, which had been on a shelf for a long time.

[02:38:16] They're like, bug, we can put out in fucking 1600 screens because no one's trying to counter program against any of these.

[02:38:21] You seen Bug, Emily?

[02:38:22] No, I have not.

[02:38:23] You would dig Bug.

[02:38:24] It's good.

[02:38:25] You'd dig Bug. Bug's cool.

[02:38:26] I dig Buff.

[02:38:27] Bug, you dig Bug.

[02:38:28] I mean, speaking of that, another film that's expanding this week from its limited release

[02:38:31] and another quasi-indie, you know, from a small studio.

[02:38:36] Quasi-indie from a small studio.

[02:38:38] It's a comedy, dark, very dark comedy.

[02:38:41] It's a very dark comedy in May of 2007.

[02:38:44] Also a filmmaker's last film, tragically.

[02:38:47] Uh, is it Prairie Home Companion?

[02:38:50] No.

[02:38:51] That was a no six release.

[02:38:53] I think that's right.

[02:38:55] It's a very dark comedy that was a filmmaker's...

[02:38:57] Very dark is way too strong.

[02:38:58] It's a dark...

[02:38:59] Was it a surprising death or was he was...

[02:39:01] Yes, it was a tragic.

[02:39:02] She.

[02:39:04] She?

[02:39:05] The director is a woman.

[02:39:07] A tragic, surprising death.

[02:39:09] This is her final film.

[02:39:10] It's a very dark comedy from a somewhat indie distributor that comes out in May 2007 and went semi-wide.

[02:39:21] Do you have an idea?

[02:39:22] No, I'm really...

[02:39:23] I'm like totally struggling on what this could be.

[02:39:25] This movie's had a very long tail.

[02:39:26] There's been an adaptation of it on the stage.

[02:39:30] Oh, it's Waitress.

[02:39:31] Adrian Shelley's Waitress.

[02:39:33] Yeah.

[02:39:34] Pretty good movie.

[02:39:35] Yeah.

[02:39:37] But one of those things where at the time people were like, this is neither fish nor fowl.

[02:39:40] What is this?

[02:39:41] How strange.

[02:39:42] And it ended up being quite a big hit.

[02:39:44] And as you said, has just really survived.

[02:39:46] A solid indie hit and then has had a crazy long tail.

[02:39:49] Yeah.

[02:39:50] Right.

[02:39:51] Because she was already...

[02:39:52] She had already passed by the time it premiered at Sundance.

[02:39:55] It got bought for a crazy amount of money at Sundance and people went like, are they overpaying because of the narrative and the tragedy?

[02:40:01] Is this going to connect with audiences?

[02:40:03] And then it really, really did.

[02:40:05] Yeah.

[02:40:06] It made a lot of money for a tiny budget indie movie.

[02:40:08] You've also got 28 Weeks Later, a film we discussed on this podcast.

[02:40:12] Dysturbia.

[02:40:13] Yeah.

[02:40:14] Oh my God.

[02:40:15] Hanging out up there.

[02:40:16] Because Dysturbia opened in April and then continued being number one the entire month.

[02:40:20] And the weekend before Spider-Man 3 comes out, Dysturbia was number one with like six million because no one wanted to have their film get steamrolled by those.

[02:40:29] Yeah.

[02:40:30] Yes.

[02:40:31] Exactly.

[02:40:32] Dysturbia did good.

[02:40:33] What movie made money?

[02:40:34] Georgia Rule.

[02:40:35] Normal movie.

[02:40:36] Super normal.

[02:40:37] Wild Hogs, another normal one.

[02:40:38] Yeah.

[02:40:39] Wild Hogs weirdly rebounding 13 weeks in.

[02:40:40] What a time.

[02:40:42] And Fracture, which is...

[02:40:43] I Killed My Wife.

[02:40:44] I Killed My Wife, Prove It or I Killed My Wife, Don't Prove It.

[02:40:47] I can't remember what the tagline is.

[02:40:49] I recently watched that for Legal Draft.

[02:40:51] Right.

[02:40:52] The poster is just Anthony Hopkins' face with I Killed My Wife in triangle letters.

[02:40:56] I shot my wife, in fact.

[02:40:57] Oh, yeah.

[02:40:58] I shot my wife.

[02:40:59] Normal poster.

[02:41:01] It's a wild poster.

[02:41:02] It's a wild poster.

[02:41:03] Just imagine that plastered over and over with like the wheat paste on...

[02:41:07] This is what New York City was like in 2007.

[02:41:09] I shot my wife, I shot my wife, I shot my wife.

[02:41:11] On every street corner.

[02:41:13] There's another version that has Gosling's face on it too, you know?

[02:41:15] And what's it say?

[02:41:16] He shot his wife.

[02:41:18] I'm from the Bronx.

[02:41:20] And then there was this version that was I Shot My Wife, Prove It, which is you're like,

[02:41:24] huh?

[02:41:25] Who was the wife in that?

[02:41:26] Ameth Davids?

[02:41:28] That sounds right.

[02:41:30] I just rewatched it and I couldn't tell you.

[02:41:31] I also watched it for the legal journal.

[02:41:33] What if there's a fracture and I Know Who Killed Me poster side by side?

[02:41:38] I mean, they were kind of around the same time.

[02:41:40] Yeah, that comes out later this summer.

[02:41:42] Same font, same typeface.

[02:41:44] So that's the deal with the box office.

[02:41:49] Obviously, Paprika's opening on a limited amount of screens.

[02:41:52] We're well below all of that.

[02:41:55] We have nothing more to say, I think.

[02:41:58] Well, excuse me.

[02:41:59] We have to announce our next miniseries.

[02:42:01] Thank you.

[02:42:03] And of course, we should thank our guests for coming and not making anybody mad.

[02:42:06] I'm just, I'm worried now.

[02:42:08] No, you shouldn't be worried.

[02:42:10] It was a very uncontentious thing.

[02:42:12] Ben?

[02:42:14] No, no, you shouldn't be worried.

[02:42:16] Ben is mad.

[02:42:18] Ben is mad because Inside Out is his favorite movie.

[02:42:20] It certainly is not.

[02:42:22] Wreck-It Ralph is his favorite movie and that's how you know Ben is mature.

[02:42:25] And my daughter has seen Wreck-It Ralph.

[02:42:27] And?

[02:42:29] And she's like, I'm going to watch it.

[02:42:31] I like that.

[02:42:33] I don't like her watching it.

[02:42:35] I like Wreck-It Ralph.

[02:42:37] Wreck-It Ralph is good.

[02:42:39] I think it's a good movie.

[02:42:41] I don't like her watching it because it's got too many guns in it.

[02:42:43] You know, all this sort of hero's duty stuff.

[02:42:45] Oh, sure, sure, sure.

[02:42:47] She kind of just doesn't care and wants to get to the candy world.

[02:42:49] You could actually do a good father-daughter Halloween costume of you as Ralph and her as Vanellope.

[02:42:53] You have the right size.

[02:42:55] It's possible.

[02:42:57] Yeah, we do.

[02:42:59] Yep.

[02:43:01] What's our next miniseries?

[02:43:03] Well, actually, you know what?

[02:43:05] The next thing we're going to cover is Furiosa, a Mad Max saga.

[02:43:07] Speaking of Mad Max Fury Road.

[02:43:09] I'm excited.

[02:43:11] Me too. It looks good.

[02:43:13] I just saw the trailer on IMAX before Dune 2.

[02:43:15] I'm stoked.

[02:43:17] I went from being like, yeah, I'll see that to like, okay, yeah.

[02:43:19] The new trailer is really good.

[02:43:21] I want to say this too.

[02:43:23] I think and I hope this bears out in the final product delivering.

[02:43:26] I think it is good that there's a little bit of, I don't know, arms crossed, show me what you got energy for this movie.

[02:43:34] Sure.

[02:43:36] Because that's what there was last time.

[02:43:38] The expectations. If we weren't going into this with fucking Phantom Menace expectations, I'd be more worried.

[02:43:43] I'm just worried that Hemsworth is too subtle. That's my fear. He's not dialing it up.

[02:43:49] To be clear, I'm so excited to see him in that movie with a fucking handlebar mustache going like...

[02:43:54] That sounds great to me.

[02:43:56] Yeah, the whole thing looks great.

[02:43:58] I just want to see everybody be super Australian.

[02:44:00] Tom Burke's in it.

[02:44:02] Yeah, it's going to be great.

[02:44:04] I'm very excited for it. We'll be covering that next week.

[02:44:07] And in two weeks we begin our next mini series, a long overdue series, a long promised series.

[02:44:12] A long threatened series.

[02:44:14] Someone who kept losing in March Madness and we finally decided to make it happen.

[02:44:19] We're a couple of breast men over here.

[02:44:21] David and I.

[02:44:22] Call me Schwimmer, call him Cooper.

[02:44:25] Because we're covering Martin Breast.

[02:44:29] Wow. A reference for five people.

[02:44:32] We will be covering the short and, you know, dramatic filmography of Martin Breast.

[02:44:41] A real classic blank check rise and fall kind of career.

[02:44:44] Going in style, which I've never seen. That's our first obviously episode.

[02:44:48] And then Beverly Hills Cop, Midnight Run, Scent of a Woman, Meet Joe Black.

[02:44:51] Meet Joe Black.

[02:44:53] Goodbye.

[02:44:55] Ta-ta.

[02:44:57] His career ended on the type of movie we now use as a verb.

[02:45:01] It's like the Ishtar thing of like you use that as shorthand for someone sort of imploding.

[02:45:06] And much like Elaine May, he is still alive and just has not made a film now in 20 years.

[02:45:11] It's still around. It's still constantly trending.

[02:45:13] We'd love for him to come back.

[02:45:15] But in the meantime, we're excited to talk about those movies.

[02:45:17] Absolutely. So that's what we're doing next on this show.

[02:45:22] But it's been fun talking about this guy and talking to this girl.

[02:45:27] Hi.

[02:45:28] Woman.

[02:45:30] Emily.

[02:45:32] You're a girl and yet a woman.

[02:45:34] And yes.

[02:45:36] Shogun.

[02:45:38] I think by the time this is out, we will have had our last...

[02:45:42] Shogun's doing really badly, but I think this will bump it.

[02:45:45] To some folks.

[02:45:47] That show's definitely in need of help.

[02:45:49] Nobody's seen it, but hopefully just give it a little whirl on Hulu.org.

[02:45:56] Yeah. Hulu's an org.

[02:45:58] Yeah. I co-wrote the finale episode with the amazing Megan Wong.

[02:46:05] And I also wrote the fourth episode.

[02:46:09] Which was good.

[02:46:11] TV takes so long at that point.

[02:46:12] That show was the reason you moved to LA in the first place.

[02:46:15] Yeah, that's the reason I moved to LA in 2019.

[02:46:18] I remember you telling me summer 2019.

[02:46:20] Like I'm moving to LA.

[02:46:22] So just to put this in perspective,

[02:46:24] Emily comes on to do the Fury Road episode coming back to New York

[02:46:28] for the first time since you'd moved to LA.

[02:46:30] After we wrapped The Room.

[02:46:32] Yes.

[02:46:34] I think I was actually still writing the finale when I was in New York then.

[02:46:38] I believe that is correct.

[02:46:39] Yeah, I was still working but just not in The Room.

[02:46:42] So that's how much time it took to make that dang show.

[02:46:45] So hopefully people watch it.

[02:46:47] People are watching it.

[02:46:49] And Slaps and Fucks.

[02:46:51] That's so crazy!

[02:46:53] That is funny.

[02:46:55] That's crazy. Oh my God.

[02:46:57] That's the passage of far too much.

[02:46:59] George Miller, that guy just knocks shit together.

[02:47:01] He really does.

[02:47:03] No, because even at that episode we were like,

[02:47:05] and he's saying he's going to make another one,

[02:47:07] but that's not going to happen.

[02:47:09] When was Thousand Years of Slipalong?

[02:47:12] Three thousand years ago.

[02:47:14] That was Ben Livingroom era, that's all I remember.

[02:47:17] Fucking movie is so good.

[02:47:19] You know what that guy does?

[02:47:21] Make good movies.

[02:47:23] He does. He do make good movie.

[02:47:25] And so did Martin Bress for a short time before he started making bad ones.

[02:47:28] But they're all going to be really fun to talk about.

[02:47:30] They're all interesting.

[02:47:32] You know who else made good movies?

[02:47:34] Satoshi Kon.

[02:47:36] Yeah, I mean that's a perfect career.

[02:47:37] Good night, Captain.

[02:47:39] Glad we finally did him on this show.

[02:47:42] And I hope we celebrated him appropriately.

[02:47:45] I have to say as of airing right now,

[02:47:47] you guys haven't aired any,

[02:47:49] or as of recording right now,

[02:47:51] you guys haven't aired any of the episodes,

[02:47:53] but everybody I know that I've mentioned that I'm doing this,

[02:47:55] everybody is stoked for this.

[02:47:57] So I'm so glad you guys did it too.

[02:47:59] People saw your skits and were excited at extrapolating

[02:48:01] that we were finally covering him and you were coming back.

[02:48:04] And I'm back, baby.

[02:48:05] I said it the wrong way.

[02:48:07] That you were coming back and we were covering him.

[02:48:09] So you'll be back, of course.

[02:48:11] Yes. I'll get my first class ticket back to New York

[02:48:15] on Blank Check Airlines.

[02:48:17] As is promised.

[02:48:19] Can we announce this on air?

[02:48:21] That you are formally not resigning from your position

[02:48:24] as past and future guest of the show.

[02:48:27] What?

[02:48:29] You saying,

[02:48:31] you saying,

[02:48:32] you'll be back, of course.

[02:48:34] Feels like it's like countering a narrative

[02:48:37] that Emily is retiring from Blank Check.

[02:48:39] Probably is a narrative.

[02:48:41] There's so many narratives out there.

[02:48:43] Yeah, we got to fight all the narratives.

[02:48:45] If there's one thing I've learned from Paprika

[02:48:47] and the films of Satoshi Kon,

[02:48:49] we must fight all narratives.

[02:48:51] We must fight all narratives.

[02:48:53] Thank you for being here, Emily.

[02:48:55] Thank you for having me.

[02:48:57] Great to be back in the seat.

[02:48:59] The old seat.

[02:49:00] Please remember to rate, review and subscribe.

[02:49:03] Thank you to Marie Barty for co-producing this show.

[02:49:07] AJ McKeon, Alex Barron for editing.

[02:49:09] I'm just, I've decided this time I'm doing the wrap up.

[02:49:12] Making unbroken eye contact with Ben.

[02:49:15] AJ McKeon, also our production coordinator.

[02:49:17] Pat Reynolds, Joe Bowen for our artwork.

[02:49:20] Thank you very much, Leigh Montgomery,

[02:49:22] the great American novel.

[02:49:24] Ben is getting uncomfortable.

[02:49:26] He's now breaking the eye contact.

[02:49:28] He's looking the other way.

[02:49:30] This is what the Internet has done to our brains.

[02:49:32] He can't even maintain eye contact with his friend.

[02:49:35] Body things to JJ Birch for our research.

[02:49:38] Reminder that once again, you are fired

[02:49:40] for that What Is He Smoking joke.

[02:49:42] Tune in next week for Furiosa, a Mad Max saga.

[02:49:47] With no dossier, apparently.

[02:49:49] Because he's fired.

[02:49:51] He's fired. Yeah. And also, he hasn't seen it yet.

[02:49:53] None of us have seen it yet.

[02:49:55] We're talking about the future.

[02:49:57] You can go to BlankCheckPod.com

[02:49:58] to watch it, including our Patreon BlankCheck special features.

[02:50:01] Where I think we're just wrapping up the turtles now.

[02:50:04] And we'll be soon transitioning into

[02:50:07] the March Madness Winter Tabletop Games.

[02:50:10] But also Paranoia Agent, much discussed on this episode,

[02:50:13] will be happening over there on Patreon.

[02:50:15] We actually kind of have...

[02:50:17] We're like in the center of turtle land.

[02:50:19] Oh, great.

[02:50:21] We're raising shell. Yeah.

[02:50:24] And as always, I want to remind everyone

[02:50:26] that we specifically told you all

[02:50:29] that you are not allowed to get mad.