Perfect Blue with Bowen Yang

[00:00:01] Blank Check with Griffin and David, Blank Check with Griffin and David, Don't know what to say or to expect, All you need to know is that the name of the show is Blank Check

[00:00:34] Great. Identity?

[00:00:37] Persona.

[00:00:38] Persona, okay.

[00:00:39] That's a P word. I'll say a lot of the quotes page is things like, Oh no!

[00:00:42] Sure.

[00:00:43] Like I love this movie but a lot of the quotes don't work out of context.

[00:00:46] It's like frightening humming. That's just the quotes page.

[00:00:50] Like here's my favorite dialogue exchange in the movie but out of context it means nothing. I'm really sorry. Oh no, it's alright.

[00:00:57] I think that's the best written exchange in the film but it only makes sense when you read out that the character name is actor playing rapist.

[00:01:06] Oh and that guy, that character I was like, see pre-Intimacy Coordinator, he's doing it right.

[00:01:14] He's doing it right.

[00:01:15] Right, he's about as good as you can get in the 90s.

[00:01:18] Yes, in 90s Japanese sex film, like you know, B movie territory.

[00:01:25] Yeah, this movie is about a lot of things but I think one of the things it is about is a theory I've held true for a long time which is that acting is inherently sociopathic.

[00:01:36] Which is not to say that all actors are sociopaths.

[00:01:40] I think some are empaths and some are just good at faking shit.

[00:01:44] But the action itself, the process is sociopathic.

[00:01:48] So socio.

[00:01:50] And so it's so bizarre when you have a moment like that where someone breaks the reality even if it's in the opposite direction towards kindness and awareness of like, hey I'm sorry about this.

[00:02:00] And she's just like no, it's alright, it's the job we signed up for.

[00:02:03] But the moment you say that it becomes okay.

[00:02:05] Is it okay because he's still raping her?

[00:02:08] I mean I don't think, let me make this clear.

[00:02:10] I do not endorse the actions of the film within the film or the TV show within the movie.

[00:02:16] I don't think that is good.

[00:02:18] No.

[00:02:19] But I do think, right, it's like the situation is bad.

[00:02:23] Neither one of them is at fault.

[00:02:25] No.

[00:02:26] But you move a hair in the wrong direction and then it becomes a situation that is more psychologically damaging in terms of actions towards each other.

[00:02:33] This is what this whole fucking movie is about.

[00:02:35] Amongst other things.

[00:02:37] And I appreciate that it is a very legible movie about, there's a reason why this poster is hanging in every college dorm.

[00:02:45] Sure.

[00:02:46] You know, like it's a very, some would say heavy handed thing on like reality and dreams.

[00:02:53] It's direct.

[00:02:54] It's a direct film.

[00:02:55] Like his later films are more indirect.

[00:02:58] This is his most like blunt film.

[00:03:00] Here's the other thing.

[00:03:01] All of his movies are under 90 minutes.

[00:03:03] No, no for sure.

[00:03:04] We stan his running times.

[00:03:06] I love the running times.

[00:03:07] You can be this blunt and aggressive and hallucinatory if you're like by the way I'm getting you out if you're in 82 minutes.

[00:03:12] I'm so grateful.

[00:03:13] And can I tell you guys something?

[00:03:15] Still watched on 1.5 speed.

[00:03:18] This movie would be the scary.

[00:03:20] It's already kind of really frightening.

[00:03:23] Yeah.

[00:03:24] At 1.5 speed I would be so unsettled.

[00:03:26] I love it.

[00:03:27] I love it.

[00:03:28] It really sings at 1.5.

[00:03:30] That humming really bores into your skull.

[00:03:35] I met someone recently who listens to the podcast who I'd never met before and was like, I was talking to them.

[00:03:42] Yeah.

[00:03:43] I met someone who listens to this.

[00:03:45] Well it's really nice.

[00:03:46] You hadn't met.

[00:03:47] I hadn't met before.

[00:03:48] Someone who's not in my immediate friend circle.

[00:03:51] And he was like looking at me strangely while I was talking and I was like what?

[00:03:56] He's like your voice is so much deeper in real life.

[00:03:58] I can't get over it.

[00:04:00] Oh wow.

[00:04:01] I have a very high voice.

[00:04:02] I'm always self-conscious about it.

[00:04:03] I think I talk at a slightly higher pitch on the podcast for legibility so I'm not mumbling.

[00:04:08] And I have a bit of a sore throat right now so that's maybe dropping it down a little bit.

[00:04:12] And then like five minutes later he was like, I listen at 2x speed.

[00:04:15] That's what it is.

[00:04:17] I don't think that pitches you up though.

[00:04:19] 2x speed like pitches me up to like this.

[00:04:21] 2x is crazy.

[00:04:22] Yeah.

[00:04:23] If you're listening at 2x speed you might have a problem.

[00:04:25] You might be an actor.

[00:04:26] You might be socio.

[00:04:28] If you!

[00:04:29] I just feel like 2x.

[00:04:30] You my baby.

[00:04:31] That's where we're entering like you're programming your brain in a way that might be unprogrammable.

[00:04:37] You might not be able to undo this.

[00:04:39] If you're just walking around this.

[00:04:41] I saw his brain melting in real time as I was like hello nice to meet you.

[00:04:45] He's like why do you sound like this?

[00:04:48] You just have to stay at 2x speed with him all the time.

[00:04:51] Shit monks.

[00:04:52] Yeah, I'm David.

[00:04:53] Oh wait what's our podcast?

[00:04:54] It's a podcast about homographies directors who have massive success early on in their careers

[00:05:00] and they're given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion products they want.

[00:05:03] Sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce.

[00:05:05] Baby.

[00:05:06] Wow.

[00:05:07] So for him that's going to be 4x.

[00:05:08] I always feel like you guys are reading that off of.

[00:05:10] Oh no he just does that.

[00:05:11] And you know why?

[00:05:12] It's because someone at Earwool from a million years ago told us like you need a summary of your podcast.

[00:05:16] Well, oh no that.

[00:05:17] But I thought oh I thought you were going to say that as someone at Earwool.

[00:05:19] You need a script.

[00:05:20] No.

[00:05:21] No you don't.

[00:05:22] No that's not.

[00:05:23] But like he was just like what's your show and we talked for like 15 minutes.

[00:05:26] He was like you need to maybe like get that pitch honed.

[00:05:30] The other thing he said was like your show needs to be 45 minutes tops.

[00:05:36] No.

[00:05:37] That was the other thing he said.

[00:05:39] We were like hmm that would be shorter.

[00:05:41] He gave us four pieces of advice that actually were helpful that we use going forward.

[00:05:45] He's a perfectly nice man.

[00:05:46] A bunch of other people at Earwool were like you should meet with them.

[00:05:49] This is a good show.

[00:05:50] And then he went in and he was like so what's your show?

[00:05:52] And we were like um.

[00:05:53] He explained it to him and he was like that I don't understand why anyone would listen to that.

[00:05:58] But he was so wrong.

[00:05:59] You guys really thrive in the 2.5 plus hour span.

[00:06:03] Also I think people have met us there.

[00:06:06] Like some guys who started short they got long too.

[00:06:09] There's a lot of long podcasts out there.

[00:06:11] Yeah.

[00:06:12] Anyway you guys are very good compelling listeners.

[00:06:14] Oh shush.

[00:06:15] I mean we could say the same about you.

[00:06:17] No no no.

[00:06:18] Yes and you actually have in my opinion a much more good length.

[00:06:22] Nice 90 minute ish.

[00:06:24] You think shorter longer?

[00:06:26] Sometimes you go longer.

[00:06:28] I wish we could really lean it down to 45.

[00:06:32] But I don't think that can ever happen.

[00:06:34] The old Earwolf.

[00:06:35] The old Earwolf.

[00:06:36] But this is after like almost like eight years of doing it and being like but it's too late.

[00:06:42] We're locked in.

[00:06:43] Well I'm also the asshole when I'm on another podcast that's long.

[00:06:46] I'm like you guys this is too long.

[00:06:48] And I'm like how I don't have a foot to stand on.

[00:06:51] No absolutely not.

[00:06:52] Look this is a mini series on the films of Satoshi Kon.

[00:06:57] A short runtime king and sadly a short filmography.

[00:07:01] Sadly.

[00:07:02] Yes like one of the most tragic filmographies I think quietly for someone who just like made four masterpieces and died.

[00:07:07] Right a pretty perfect filmography which is and which was being you know discovered to this day which is great.

[00:07:15] This is in that rare tier of like masterpiece first films we've covered.

[00:07:20] Most people don't have that.

[00:07:21] Most people have a little bit of sort of warming up to do totally.

[00:07:25] And he just hit the ground running.

[00:07:27] It's called pod precast.

[00:07:30] You happy about that.

[00:07:32] Thank you.

[00:07:33] I love it.

[00:07:34] Thank you.

[00:07:36] Our guests they return to the show for the first time in a while.

[00:07:39] Yes.

[00:07:40] First time solo.

[00:07:41] First time solo.

[00:07:42] Last time pre pandemic.

[00:07:43] About Aang.

[00:07:44] About Aang.

[00:07:45] That's right.

[00:07:46] We went up to Brookback Mountain.

[00:07:48] And today we're going perfect blue.

[00:07:50] I need to listen to you guys' wedding banquet episode.

[00:07:52] You should.

[00:07:53] We did.

[00:07:54] Whenever it was.

[00:07:55] Can we leave this off Mike?

[00:07:57] But we're shooting we're redoing it.

[00:08:00] We're redoing it and we're shooting it in June.

[00:08:03] That rules.

[00:08:04] Anyway sorry I'll tell you guys.

[00:08:05] We'll talk about that all day.

[00:08:06] That movie rocks.

[00:08:07] Fucking wrong.

[00:08:08] Bo and Yang.

[00:08:09] Hi.

[00:08:10] SNL.

[00:08:11] Less culture east does.

[00:08:12] Eight million things.

[00:08:13] A lot of movies.

[00:08:15] Some movies.

[00:08:16] I think there's been a drop off.

[00:08:18] I think we were definitely.

[00:08:19] There's been a drop off?

[00:08:20] We were definitely both at the Tiff party for Dix the Musical at Hooters.

[00:08:27] Did you play God?

[00:08:28] I had just flown in that day dude.

[00:08:30] I'm so sorry if I was out of sorts if I wasn't like I'm so bad at just like

[00:08:34] being like oh my god hi.

[00:08:35] Like I am so in my tunnel.

[00:08:37] It's quite all right.

[00:08:39] A normal party for one of those is a party for one of those.

[00:08:42] It's quite all right.

[00:08:43] A normal party for one of those is a little bit of a tunnel and then we were all at Hooters.

[00:08:48] And like I think the Zone of Interest had just played.

[00:08:51] Like we weren't like Dix had not played yet.

[00:08:53] Dix was after the party.

[00:08:55] And Zone of Interest had tried to book the Hooters.

[00:08:58] And so people kept being like starting conversations about Zone of Interest and

[00:09:02] them being kind of like I don't think we should talk about this right now.

[00:09:05] Time and a place.

[00:09:06] Yeah.

[00:09:07] Oh my god that was a fun party though.

[00:09:10] Very fun party.

[00:09:11] I had long told A24 like someone should do the Hooters.

[00:09:14] There's a Hooters right there.

[00:09:16] It's right next to every venue.

[00:09:18] Who are you trying to impress?

[00:09:19] Yeah exactly.

[00:09:20] What do we all actually want out of this?

[00:09:21] Right and guess what?

[00:09:22] The wings were good.

[00:09:23] Wings were great.

[00:09:24] This is the thing with Hooters.

[00:09:25] I mean this came up on Doughboys recently that Hooters has now opened a new chain

[00:09:30] like a new.

[00:09:32] Like a non booby version of Hooters.

[00:09:34] I mean no if it's the boobs.

[00:09:35] There's a wing focus concept where they're just like we want to just clean the wings off of the boobs.

[00:09:40] That's their only calling card at this point is the boobs.

[00:09:43] So what's the non-boom suitors called?

[00:09:45] What's it called?

[00:09:46] Alright whatever it doesn't matter.

[00:09:47] Look Bowen is here.

[00:09:49] Bowen Tina Fey was on your podcast.

[00:09:52] A very famous person.

[00:09:53] Yeah.

[00:09:54] And did a I don't think so honey that went fairly viral.

[00:09:57] And that we're still kind of like reckoning with.

[00:10:00] It really rocked us.

[00:10:01] I think it was a moment for many of us.

[00:10:03] Sort of an atom bomb for celebrities going on podcasts.

[00:10:06] Is that what you mean?

[00:10:07] It was coming after the IO j-lo situation.

[00:10:11] The friend of blank check passed and future guests will get her back.

[00:10:16] But that moment happens and then Tina on your show happens and I texted David and I was like guess Bowen and IO are never coming back on blank check.

[00:10:25] And it wasn't anything against or projected against two of you but there was a feeling of like is this a Red Scare moment?

[00:10:31] Oh my god.

[00:10:33] Across the industry.

[00:10:35] Not the podcast Red Scare but you just mean like an actual scare.

[00:10:38] Not a Red Scare moment.

[00:10:40] Of course.

[00:10:41] Although I do want to talk to you about Christianity off mic.

[00:10:43] I have some thoughts on the good Lord.

[00:10:45] Yes yes.

[00:10:46] No but is there going to be like a terror that's going to settle in on like should none of us ever share opinions on anything?

[00:10:52] I listen.

[00:10:54] What I've learned is that people just forget.

[00:10:58] People forget.

[00:10:59] People just forget.

[00:11:00] I agree.

[00:11:01] You're IO and you're like the most famous actor of the moment.

[00:11:05] The single most famous person in America?

[00:11:07] I think so.

[00:11:08] Kind of?

[00:11:09] The people's princess of the internet.

[00:11:11] This is true.

[00:11:12] I also think my stance is that you have a podcast where you talk so much about pop culture and celebrities and figures and it's so wide ranging.

[00:11:20] There's so much that falls into your net.

[00:11:22] You've been doing it for a very long time.

[00:11:24] In real time you and Matt have both had your profiles rise exponentially.

[00:11:29] And then suddenly it's like you meet some of these people.

[00:11:31] You work with some of these people.

[00:11:33] Some of these people come on the show.

[00:11:35] Yeah?

[00:11:36] I've always felt like and I feel like you guys take a similar approach to this.

[00:11:40] When you are enthusiastic about something, you are so enthusiastic about it and can really explain why you think it is good.

[00:11:46] But it comes off as like kind of cloying sometimes I think.

[00:11:49] I don't think that's true.

[00:11:50] Okay well thank you but.

[00:11:52] I think there's some people who build their brand off of just like I shit on stuff.

[00:11:55] I call bullshit on this.

[00:11:57] I don't think we're that.

[00:11:58] Absolutely.

[00:11:59] So I'm like anytime we come across anyone who we've talked about on the podcast and I'm like fuck what's the worst thing we've ever said about them.

[00:12:06] We've been doing it for nine years.

[00:12:08] We've covered so many movies.

[00:12:10] Maybe we said something rude.

[00:12:11] It's true.

[00:12:12] At a certain level at some point they probably caught us stray.

[00:12:15] Of course.

[00:12:16] This is what I think we should be doing going forward.

[00:12:19] Someone has said something disparaging about you on some recorded format.

[00:12:24] Assume it.

[00:12:25] Just assume it and it's okay.

[00:12:27] And they didn't have hate in their heart probably.

[00:12:29] No.

[00:12:30] They were just being annoying.

[00:12:31] And they've done it to us and we do it to them.

[00:12:33] Right.

[00:12:34] And I'm also just like whatever the worst thing I've said is I probably have also said something incredibly complimentary about them on a different episode.

[00:12:40] Of course.

[00:12:41] Yeah.

[00:12:42] Of course.

[00:12:43] I think this is just very relevant to this movie.

[00:12:47] Yes.

[00:12:48] What like.

[00:12:49] Fandoms.

[00:12:50] Fandom internet culture.

[00:12:51] Being online.

[00:12:52] All of it.

[00:12:53] This movie is very pressing in a lot of ways.

[00:12:54] Yes.

[00:12:55] And I really, really, really told Matt to.

[00:12:57] Matt had never seen it and I was like and he has been.

[00:13:00] He will.

[00:13:01] And he wouldn't mind me saying this.

[00:13:03] He was trolling the Reddit.

[00:13:07] The subreddit for Lost Cultures.

[00:13:09] Sure.

[00:13:10] I wouldn't know about that.

[00:13:11] We've never done a thing like that.

[00:13:12] I don't even know if we have a Reddit.

[00:13:14] You guys.

[00:13:15] It hasn't come up.

[00:13:16] You guys have a great sub by the way.

[00:13:17] Yeah.

[00:13:18] Well.

[00:13:19] Don't.

[00:13:20] Well I'm just going to say.

[00:13:21] What?

[00:13:22] I think you're right.

[00:13:23] I think you're right.

[00:13:24] And I would say the same for ours.

[00:13:25] I don't try.

[00:13:26] I try not to check it as much.

[00:13:27] Yeah.

[00:13:28] Matt has really sort of sworn it off.

[00:13:29] I think through the help of this movie.

[00:13:30] Really?

[00:13:31] Because I was like you because this movie helped me in a moment where I was like

[00:13:34] trying to like square like me and who I am and what I know about myself against

[00:13:41] like.

[00:13:42] I don't know.

[00:13:43] I don't know.

[00:13:44] I don't know.

[00:13:45] I don't know.

[00:13:46] I don't know.

[00:13:47] I don't know.

[00:13:48] I don't know.

[00:13:49] I don't know.

[00:13:50] I don't know.

[00:13:51] I don't know.

[00:13:52] I don't know.

[00:13:53] And I would like to say that I'm against like what like the internet says about me.

[00:13:55] Sure.

[00:13:56] And this is true.

[00:13:57] I don't think this is exclusive to whatever quote unquote public facing people.

[00:14:00] I think this is just like whatever.

[00:14:03] It's an identity movie in a way.

[00:14:06] In certain ways it speaks very specifically to the nature of fame and of performing

[00:14:11] and all of that.

[00:14:12] This isn't even about a very famous person.

[00:14:14] No, this is about a lightly famous.

[00:14:16] It's one of my favorite details that she lives in a very tiny apartment.

[00:14:20] That you're like, she's at a level where she is more famous than successful.

[00:14:23] Which is an interesting thing that people don't talk about that much.

[00:14:26] And it's very present today in our current culture.

[00:14:31] There's only a small amount of people who really give a shit about her, but then they really care about her because she's special to them.

[00:14:37] She's got an active subreddit.

[00:14:38] Whereas if I see Nick, does Nicole Kidman have an active subreddit?

[00:14:43] Probably not.

[00:14:44] Maybe she does actually.

[00:14:46] Let's find out.

[00:14:47] No, she doesn't.

[00:14:49] And there should be just a group of people all the time being like, Nicole Kidman, I love her.

[00:14:55] Let's talk about fur today.

[00:14:57] Let's talk about fur.

[00:14:59] This movie is about people who have subreddits.

[00:15:03] Yes.

[00:15:04] Wow.

[00:15:05] So that's us.

[00:15:06] Wow.

[00:15:07] Is this about us?

[00:15:10] I'm transitioning from pop music to acting, guys.

[00:15:14] I told Mandy more about this movie when she was on our podcast.

[00:15:16] Really?

[00:15:17] So I messaged you.

[00:15:19] I'd remember you logging and writing about Cone movies on your letterbox.

[00:15:24] Yes.

[00:15:25] Which is now secreted.

[00:15:27] Which I have yes.

[00:15:28] Yes.

[00:15:29] Yes.

[00:15:30] And I messaged you and I said, like, I know Tina Fey just told you to never talk about

[00:15:35] a movie on a podcast ever again, but what do you want to do this?

[00:15:37] And your response was, I very much have college kid brain when it comes to Perfect Blue, of course.

[00:15:41] Yes.

[00:15:42] Yes.

[00:15:43] Absolutely.

[00:15:44] When did you first see Perfect Blue?

[00:15:46] This was probably, yeah, it was in college, sophomore year.

[00:15:52] Thought it was fine.

[00:15:53] I was mostly just like zeroing in on paprika being like, this is fucking amazing.

[00:15:58] Right.

[00:15:59] Or Christopher Nolan stole this.

[00:16:01] Being that.

[00:16:02] And then Perfect Blue, I didn't put the Black Swan comparison in my brain until much later.

[00:16:08] Which actually feels more stolen in a way.

[00:16:11] Right.

[00:16:12] Kind of untimely.

[00:16:13] More spoken of as well.

[00:16:15] In my cursory research for this film leading up to today, I didn't know that Darren Aronofsky

[00:16:20] wrote a eulogy for Satoshi Kon.

[00:16:23] Right.

[00:16:24] This is the difference between we talk about the Nolan thing on the freak episode, I think.

[00:16:26] But like, you know, Aronofsky's very upfront about how much he loves this guy.

[00:16:30] Like, yes.

[00:16:31] Whereas Nolan has never spoken about Satoshi Kon.

[00:16:34] Right.

[00:16:35] Right.

[00:16:36] But Aronofsky's still.

[00:16:37] He's like, no, I didn't.

[00:16:38] I didn't cop anything.

[00:16:39] Which I guess I, but then like, why are you, but then why are you obsessed with him?

[00:16:44] Which he is.

[00:16:45] Which he is openly.

[00:16:46] He was like interviewing him in like 2001.

[00:16:49] There have always been rumors that at some point he acquired the rights to one of the

[00:16:54] movies.

[00:16:55] We can talk about it.

[00:16:56] I bet you it's in the research.

[00:16:57] Right.

[00:16:58] Yeah.

[00:16:59] Because he definitely, yeah, we'll talk about it.

[00:17:00] But it's been exciting to hear you like bring up Perfect Blue over the last like

[00:17:04] month or two on Las Culturistas.

[00:17:06] Yes.

[00:17:07] As it's been in sort of your brain soup since we put this episode on the.

[00:17:10] Did you maybe see Paprika first and then you go back and then that's it?

[00:17:13] Yeah.

[00:17:14] Yeah.

[00:17:15] And then I had a moment with Perfect Blue two Christmases ago where I was like depressed.

[00:17:21] Nothing particularly bad was happening in my world.

[00:17:24] It was just the world.

[00:17:25] And I had two Christmases ago wasn't like the best time.

[00:17:28] Like, you know, I barely even remember.

[00:17:30] It's just not good.

[00:17:31] It's not good.

[00:17:32] Yeah.

[00:17:33] I think I was just having a bad moment of like vanity searching on like Twitter

[00:17:37] and being like, what are people saying about me?

[00:17:39] Mm hmm.

[00:17:40] Which watching this movie really helped flip a switch.

[00:17:44] I was like, oh, like the whole point of this is that like there's this lethal

[00:17:49] thing going on with this person, this character where the idea of what she

[00:17:53] should be is sort of trying to kill her.

[00:17:56] You know, she is trying to just be herself and not have to negotiate that

[00:18:01] with anyone else's idea of it.

[00:18:02] And like that's the college kid's brain thing.

[00:18:04] Yeah.

[00:18:05] I think that's like very pertinent now for like everyone because we are all kind

[00:18:10] of presenting a version of ourselves.

[00:18:12] You know what I mean?

[00:18:13] Like, yes, 100 percent.

[00:18:14] Even if you literally are just posting about the lunches you eat on Twitter

[00:18:17] or whatever, there's still like there's a persona that's building up.

[00:18:20] Lunch guy.

[00:18:21] Lunch guy.

[00:18:22] Yeah.

[00:18:23] Check out lunch guy.

[00:18:25] Turkey on rye on Tuesday.

[00:18:26] We usually do Thursdays.

[00:18:27] I'm keeping track.

[00:18:29] No, but there's like so few people who are not actively putting out a

[00:18:33] framed version of themselves in some way.

[00:18:36] And even the people who are like entirely off of social media, it's like

[00:18:41] you still might be a quote unquote background character in someone else's

[00:18:45] fucking TikTok prank at any moment.

[00:18:47] Oh my God.

[00:18:48] How have I avoided this?

[00:18:50] Have you guys been in these like no crosshairs?

[00:18:53] Jesus.

[00:18:54] I mean, but I did like yesterday in New York.

[00:18:57] It was like 70 degrees for the first time of the year and it's gorgeous out

[00:19:01] and my office is in Soho.

[00:19:03] I exit the R train on Prince Street.

[00:19:05] The prankers were running.

[00:19:06] It wasn't prankers, but the amount of models doing like impromptu shoots

[00:19:11] with like a ring light and a guy, you know, on Prince Street.

[00:19:14] I was just like everyone's out like New York, like everyone's making their

[00:19:17] viral videos.

[00:19:18] Like it has never happened to me.

[00:19:20] But there is this part of me now that is perpetually paranoid about like

[00:19:24] am I going to be the weird reaction in someone's video?

[00:19:27] Yes.

[00:19:28] Or something weird happens on the street and I look over their shoulder.

[00:19:31] Oh my God.

[00:19:32] I'm never going to Water Street in Brooklyn ever.

[00:19:35] Can't do it because that's where all the people go.

[00:19:37] That's where they do it?

[00:19:38] The great prank way.

[00:19:39] The great prank way.

[00:19:40] But between like pranks or like people who are doing their like fashion

[00:19:45] runway videos right on the streets or just like random weird New York

[00:19:50] occurrences that get filmed by 40 people and then some of them catch on

[00:19:54] and it's like you're the guy who walks past Pizza Rat or whatever the fuck

[00:19:57] it is, you know?

[00:19:58] Like there's a version of we just live in a reality where anyone might

[00:20:02] become content at any point in time.

[00:20:04] Even if you are actively avoiding it or trying to control exactly what

[00:20:09] you do.

[00:20:10] All right.

[00:20:11] Perfect blue.

[00:20:12] Griff, when did you see perfect blue?

[00:20:13] I'm just taking people down memory lane.

[00:20:14] I think I only saw it a couple years ago for the first time.

[00:20:17] Yeah.

[00:20:18] I think I saw it around Pandemic.

[00:20:19] I saw it at a rep screening years ago, completely unprepared for what

[00:20:22] it was.

[00:20:23] I think I knew the director.

[00:20:25] Obviously, I knew this was his first film.

[00:20:27] I did not know I was going to walk out like really rattled by it.

[00:20:30] It's a disturbing movie.

[00:20:31] Obviously, we all know this.

[00:20:33] I saw like a lone at Metrograph like noon or whatever.

[00:20:37] Great Metrograph.

[00:20:38] Yeah.

[00:20:39] And just walked out like my brain feeling a little scrambled.

[00:20:42] But I think we all came to it later.

[00:20:44] I was too young for this movie when it was a thing if it was really a

[00:20:47] thing in America in the late 90s, probably only a little bit.

[00:20:51] Yeah.

[00:20:52] We've already acknowledged it, but this is a movie that like kept on

[00:20:55] getting boosted by first Requiem for a Dream and then Black Swan.

[00:21:00] Yep.

[00:21:01] Just like both movies created conversation of people being like,

[00:21:05] do you know what this was taken from?

[00:21:07] And I feel like those guys have only gotten louder and louder on the

[00:21:09] internet as time has gone on.

[00:21:11] Yeah.

[00:21:12] And then Paprika joined the chorus.

[00:21:13] But it's so much of Satoshi Kon's weird legacy in the United

[00:21:16] States is like tied to these other directors, you think?

[00:21:19] Mostly after he died, him getting signal boosted by people saying,

[00:21:24] you know, this is the real shit.

[00:21:26] You know that movie you love.

[00:21:28] This is the real thing.

[00:21:30] And I guess that's like unfair to everyone involved.

[00:21:33] It's a little unfair to everybody involved.

[00:21:35] Yeah.

[00:21:36] I would say that's how I feel about it.

[00:21:37] I think it gets reductive when you're just like these guys carbon

[00:21:41] copied him, which I don't think is quite the case and also

[00:21:44] diminishes his work as its own thing.

[00:21:46] Yeah.

[00:21:47] Or just it could be like what I like about Perfect Blue is I don't like

[00:21:49] Black Swan and I'm just like, okay, well that's the guy I hate.

[00:21:53] Yeah.

[00:21:54] Right.

[00:21:55] I don't know what to do with you then.

[00:21:56] Like, you know.

[00:21:57] There are some.

[00:21:58] Yes.

[00:21:59] Also, Black Swan is pretty good.

[00:22:00] I think Black Swan rules.

[00:22:01] I have not seen it in years.

[00:22:02] Maybe I should check out Black Swan.

[00:22:04] It is one.

[00:22:05] Nice normal movie to sit down with.

[00:22:06] Yeah.

[00:22:07] I'm not like worried about rewatching it, but I do wonder.

[00:22:10] It hit me like a ton of bricks when it came out and I saw it a couple times.

[00:22:13] It's cool.

[00:22:14] Yeah.

[00:22:15] It's cool.

[00:22:16] It's got lipstick on a mirror.

[00:22:18] What more could you want?

[00:22:19] That's like one of the great Twitter images of all, like just using any content.

[00:22:27] Yes.

[00:22:28] It's so funny.

[00:22:29] It's so funny.

[00:22:30] What I think and I think this is like so letterbox coded what I'm about to say.

[00:22:34] Oh, please.

[00:22:35] The gorgeous thing about this movie is that people with wide set eyes are evil.

[00:22:39] It is true.

[00:22:44] The main villainess and the sort of manipulated sub villain.

[00:22:48] Yep.

[00:22:49] Have beady little eyes that are on the two miles away from each other.

[00:22:54] That is sort of a tell.

[00:22:56] They got a T head.

[00:22:57] You're so right about that being that is like my letterbox from just like here's

[00:23:01] one fragmentary thought I had about a movie.

[00:23:03] That's all I'm going to give you.

[00:23:05] You have great letterbox reviews.

[00:23:06] I am blushing.

[00:23:07] Oh, you've been told this many times.

[00:23:09] I'm blushing.

[00:23:10] Okay.

[00:23:11] But your views are also like, you know, John Cusack and flip flops go off.

[00:23:16] It's something like that.

[00:23:18] Right.

[00:23:19] Exactly.

[00:23:20] Perfect.

[00:23:23] Okay, Griffin, shut up for a second because I need to tell you about a special thing

[00:23:27] that only I know about.

[00:23:29] Now, you know this.

[00:23:30] This episode is brought to you by Mubi, a curated streaming service dedicated to

[00:23:34] elevating great cinema from around the globe from iconic directors to emerging

[00:23:39] directors.

[00:23:40] This is something you to discover on Mubi.

[00:23:42] They've got great hand selected streaming choices on movie all the time.

[00:23:47] We talk about it all the time.

[00:23:48] We love the good folks at movie, but this month on movie US, you can catch

[00:23:54] gasoline rainbow, which is the new film from the Ross brothers, Bill Ross,

[00:23:58] the fourth and Turner Ross, which is in U S theaters from May 10th.

[00:24:02] And it's streaming on movie from May 31st.

[00:24:04] So these guys are the directors of bloody nose empty pockets was their last

[00:24:08] film.

[00:24:09] And they mostly work in documentary.

[00:24:11] This is their first fiction film, but it's got kind of a hybrid realism to it.

[00:24:17] It's about this group of teenagers, five kids in inland Oregon who are

[00:24:22] trying to drive in a van across the state to the coast, you know,

[00:24:27] and this kind of ramshackle situation.

[00:24:29] They're just having fun.

[00:24:30] And it is a very sort of experiential, cool, vibey movie about teens,

[00:24:36] you know, partying and having one last hurrah.

[00:24:38] It's very chill.

[00:24:39] It's very fun.

[00:24:41] It's very sort of atmospheric.

[00:24:44] It was the South by Southwest.

[00:24:45] It was at Venice.

[00:24:46] It's an expansive portrait of this new generation told in their own

[00:24:49] words, New York magazine loved it into wire, loved it.

[00:24:53] It opens in U S theaters on May 10th streaming on movie from May 31st.

[00:24:57] You've also got do not expect too much from the end of the world.

[00:25:00] The Radu Jude movie, Romanian great, very cool Romanian filmmaker that

[00:25:04] streaming on movie US from May 3rd, very wild and provocative and

[00:25:08] interesting dark comic vulgar film won the special jury award at

[00:25:12] Locarno last year.

[00:25:14] It's got Nina Haas.

[00:25:15] It's got a bowl.

[00:25:16] It's got all kinds of stuff.

[00:25:18] Anyway, check all that out because for a limited time you can try

[00:25:21] movie free for 30 days at movie dot com slash blank check.

[00:25:24] That's M U B I dot com slash blank check for a month of great

[00:25:27] cinema for free.

[00:25:28] Bye bye.

[00:25:29] OK, so let me give you some backstory on him.

[00:25:34] This is our first episode on him and it's his debut.

[00:25:37] He was born in 1963, Hokkaido, the Northern Island of Japan.

[00:25:42] JJ mentioned I just want to point out in our research that he was

[00:25:45] born 10 years after JJ's father, which I'm so glad he included.

[00:25:48] Thank you for including that JJ.

[00:25:50] Really would have disorient to me if I didn't know when JJ's

[00:25:53] father was born in relation to Satoshi Kong.

[00:25:56] I have never been to Japan.

[00:25:58] I've never visited Japan.

[00:25:59] I would love to visit Hokkaido whenever you see it in movies.

[00:26:01] It is always like it's like the more pastoral.

[00:26:03] It's like lots of fishing.

[00:26:04] It's colder.

[00:26:05] It seems like I just watched when Marni was there, the Ghibli

[00:26:09] movie, which is based on a British novel, much like Ariety and

[00:26:15] like transposes like British countryside to Hokkaido.

[00:26:18] Like it's like she has to move up there for her asthma or

[00:26:21] whatever.

[00:26:22] Anyway, Satoshi Kahn says as a child, like hunting bugs,

[00:26:26] watching cartoons, living in a fishing town like that's his.

[00:26:29] That's how he grew up, basically attended a very strict school.

[00:26:34] Apparently he was kind of an annoying kid who would provoke

[00:26:37] teachers.

[00:26:38] He says he was kind of cocky, was more friends with girls

[00:26:43] than boys.

[00:26:44] Okay.

[00:26:45] All right.

[00:26:46] Joined the art club, got into like Gundam and like, you

[00:26:50] know, whatever, you know, hot manga and anime of the time

[00:26:55] goes to art school in Tokyo, build up his art.

[00:27:00] God, I could never do this.

[00:27:02] This is the whole thing with animation.

[00:27:04] Anytime we covered on the show, the idea of them sitting

[00:27:07] down and being like, I'm going to fucking draw like for

[00:27:10] the rest of my life.

[00:27:11] Right.

[00:27:12] I thought I wanted to be an animator, Bowen.

[00:27:14] Me too.

[00:27:15] Growing up.

[00:27:16] Yeah.

[00:27:17] And I like, I did like an intensive pre-college course

[00:27:19] that I thought was my like, oh, and this is what I'll do

[00:27:22] to then apply to animation schools.

[00:27:24] And I did.

[00:27:25] And I was like, I, my brain cannot withstand this.

[00:27:27] I was like, I to some degree have some ability of

[00:27:30] technical skill that with time I could probably refine

[00:27:33] into doing this professionally.

[00:27:35] My brain will melt.

[00:27:37] What, what like was the heat source?

[00:27:39] Like it was like you were like frame by frame.

[00:27:42] Like that was the yeah.

[00:27:43] Yeah.

[00:27:44] It was sitting down and just drawing things over and

[00:27:46] over and over again.

[00:27:48] And the like meticulous precision of it and the

[00:27:50] isolation of it.

[00:27:52] Is that the panacea though to like our times right

[00:27:55] now?

[00:27:56] Like is that what would like cure all of us?

[00:27:58] All became animators.

[00:28:00] We're so painstaking.

[00:28:02] Methodical discipline.

[00:28:03] Yes.

[00:28:04] Possibly.

[00:28:05] It's certainly there is so much joy.

[00:28:07] And this is just the 30 something in me talking as

[00:28:10] well though, and just like, you know, making

[00:28:13] something working hard on it and like, you know,

[00:28:15] like it's true, right?

[00:28:18] All my friends at the same time are like, I'm

[00:28:20] getting into this.

[00:28:21] And I'm like, yes, you are.

[00:28:22] Yeah, I'm getting into this, which is the same

[00:28:24] version of that.

[00:28:25] You know, like it's all we're all just crafting

[00:28:27] over here.

[00:28:28] There's this kind of guy and everything I read

[00:28:30] from Satoshi-kun seems to be the same deal

[00:28:33] where it becomes this weird Zen state for them.

[00:28:37] Everything I found stressful about it, they're

[00:28:40] like it's a relief.

[00:28:42] That relaxes me right doing it.

[00:28:44] Yes.

[00:28:45] But basically he always loved drawing.

[00:28:47] He was always like, I'm going to do a job for him.

[00:28:49] He wants to make art, right?

[00:28:51] It's not like he just wants to be like a graphic

[00:28:53] designer or whatever.

[00:28:55] As long as art and drawings were involved in my

[00:28:57] work, regardless of genre, I was satisfied,

[00:28:59] he said.

[00:29:00] So, you know, he's obsessed with early Miyazaki

[00:29:03] stuff.

[00:29:04] He's obsessed with manga.

[00:29:06] But then in college, he says he starts to

[00:29:08] get more into like live action films and names

[00:29:12] like a ton of like Japanese action films and

[00:29:15] things like that.

[00:29:16] I think it is the key turning point that

[00:29:18] basically, and he says part of it is the like.

[00:29:20] Terry Gilliam is a huge inspiration for him, he says.

[00:29:23] Part of it, I think, is the like, if you

[00:29:25] love food, never work in a kitchen thing, where

[00:29:27] he basically said from the moment he was

[00:29:29] pursuing it professionally and really getting

[00:29:31] into the nuts and bolts of it, he couldn't

[00:29:33] kind of get joy watching other animated works.

[00:29:35] Oh, really?

[00:29:36] He got too gummed up in the like the

[00:29:38] technique and like thinking about the actual

[00:29:41] production.

[00:29:42] But the other part was he was like, I don't

[00:29:44] want to be making animated films, riffing off

[00:29:47] of other animated films.

[00:29:48] I want to put different input in my head

[00:29:51] and then sort of express it out as animation,

[00:29:54] which I do think it's why this movie in

[00:29:57] particular, but his whole career comes like

[00:29:59] as a total shock to the industry of just

[00:30:01] like, well, this is not what anyone else

[00:30:03] is using animation for.

[00:30:05] This guy's thinking about it in a different

[00:30:07] area.

[00:30:08] Absolutely.

[00:30:09] He's very self-deprecating about it,

[00:30:11] which is like in all these episodes where

[00:30:13] we talk about him, that's what he's like.

[00:30:15] He's always just down on himself and just

[00:30:17] like, oh, you know, I'm not that important

[00:30:19] and like the stuff I do isn't that interesting.

[00:30:21] Like that's just his personality in every

[00:30:23] single interview.

[00:30:24] But he starts working on Kai

[00:30:26] Kisen, Kai Kisen.

[00:30:28] I'm sorry.

[00:30:29] I don't know some sort of long running

[00:30:31] manga series.

[00:30:32] And then he works on another manga

[00:30:34] series and then he hops to

[00:30:37] anime rights, hops to like, you know,

[00:30:39] television.

[00:30:40] He works on Jojo's Bizarre Adventures

[00:30:42] That's the big one for him.

[00:30:43] That's the one that breaks him.

[00:30:44] That does kind of break him out,

[00:30:47] as well as Run Melos

[00:30:49] and which was written

[00:30:51] written and directed by Oshi

[00:30:53] the Ghost in the Shell guy.

[00:30:55] Oh.

[00:30:56] And then they those two collaborated on a manga

[00:30:58] together called Seraphim

[00:31:00] 266 million wings.

[00:31:02] I just what a world.

[00:31:04] What a world.

[00:31:05] Are you an anime or manga book?

[00:31:07] Cause I'm really not.

[00:31:08] I'm really not.

[00:31:09] And it's a thing that I hope to

[00:31:12] It's so deep.

[00:31:13] It's just like I can't

[00:31:15] I find it very daunting.

[00:31:16] Haste did a thing recently where they were like

[00:31:18] these are the right start here.

[00:31:20] Start here.

[00:31:21] And I think I really did like bookmark that as

[00:31:23] like, oh, let me this is going to be my little

[00:31:25] Yeah, I've been trying

[00:31:27] to push myself to watch more anime films

[00:31:29] with the TV stuff just feels so

[00:31:31] daunting.

[00:31:32] But it does kind of

[00:31:35] it is already pre-digested for you where it's

[00:31:37] like 22 minutes.

[00:31:38] Right. It's true.

[00:31:39] OK, I can do that.

[00:31:40] You can pop one on.

[00:31:41] And I'm not above

[00:31:43] an English dub.

[00:31:44] No, I'm not either.

[00:31:46] You know, I will say the English dub on this

[00:31:48] one is weak.

[00:31:49] Yes.

[00:31:50] I watched the

[00:31:52] Japanese language version.

[00:31:53] I have checked in with the dub and I have not

[00:31:55] found it to be good.

[00:31:56] Yeah.

[00:31:57] There's probably a better dub to be done.

[00:31:59] It's across this miniseries.

[00:32:01] What I did was tried

[00:32:03] the dub on my desk.

[00:32:05] And then if the dub was not good, I'd go, OK,

[00:32:07] sub time.

[00:32:08] Like, if the performances are good, I will

[00:32:10] respect the integrity of the

[00:32:12] original work.

[00:32:13] I just sometimes my brain is easier

[00:32:15] to process it for the first time

[00:32:17] if I'm not also reading the subtiles

[00:32:19] and films that are this hyper visual.

[00:32:21] Yes, yes, yes.

[00:32:22] Yeah.

[00:32:23] But this dub sucks.

[00:32:24] In 1991, author Yoshikazu

[00:32:26] Takeuchi writes Perfect Blue

[00:32:28] Kansan Hantai.

[00:32:29] It's a novel.

[00:32:30] Yes.

[00:32:31] It's originally going to be turned into a

[00:32:32] live action film.

[00:32:33] After the great Covey earthquake of 1995,

[00:32:35] for whatever reason, it then gets turned into

[00:32:37] an animated project.

[00:32:38] It goes to Madhouse,

[00:32:40] who are obviously the people who made it.

[00:32:42] They start prepping it as an OVA,

[00:32:44] which is basically a straight to

[00:32:46] video, not even a TV

[00:32:48] film like straight to DVD.

[00:32:50] No, it was anime's equivalent

[00:32:52] of Return of Jafar.

[00:32:54] It was like they suddenly built a very successful

[00:32:56] model of like there were TV

[00:32:58] shows, there were movies, and

[00:33:00] then there are like sixty five to seventy

[00:33:02] minute straight to video lower quality.

[00:33:05] Yes, because reference

[00:33:07] Return of Jafar as like.

[00:33:08] Oh, we did an episode.

[00:33:10] Yes, that's right.

[00:33:11] And it has become a bit

[00:33:13] of a term for us.

[00:33:14] Yes.

[00:33:15] Thank you for indexing

[00:33:17] it like that because it is like it is

[00:33:19] the straight to video sequel.

[00:33:21] Like the

[00:33:23] like that. That is the thing.

[00:33:24] It was the one.

[00:33:25] Have you watched it recently?

[00:33:26] No.

[00:33:27] Oh, yeah, I did watch it recently

[00:33:28] because I had to play

[00:33:30] Jafar on SNL.

[00:33:31] Yes, you did beautifully.

[00:33:33] And I was just like, I know

[00:33:35] like the original Aladdin Jafar, like the back of my hand,

[00:33:37] but there was some I think the

[00:33:39] sexual early sexual waking for me was

[00:33:41] them like was Jafar

[00:33:43] staying in Genie state for most

[00:33:45] of Return of Jafar and the abs

[00:33:47] and the pecs just kind of like bulging out the whole

[00:33:49] time.

[00:33:50] Jafar is did you check out like

[00:33:52] Broadway Jafar too? I feel like that's

[00:33:54] a whole world.

[00:33:55] That's the whole world.

[00:33:56] Not quite as gay.

[00:33:58] No, sure. More arch.

[00:33:59] But Broadway Jafar was the same.

[00:34:01] Was the voice actor?

[00:34:02] Was John Freeman?

[00:34:03] Am I wrong about that?

[00:34:04] At least at some point.

[00:34:05] He originated.

[00:34:06] Yeah.

[00:34:07] And that is one of our great gay men.

[00:34:08] I mean, I do think

[00:34:10] I just think the gag in Aladdin

[00:34:12] where he says he could marry

[00:34:14] Jasmine.

[00:34:15] Yager says like you could marry.

[00:34:17] And he just goes, what is

[00:34:19] still just the funniest

[00:34:21] like gay coded Disney villain

[00:34:23] moment ever.

[00:34:24] It's funny.

[00:34:25] Like it's not like derisive.

[00:34:27] It's truly funny.

[00:34:28] Of course.

[00:34:29] Like the two of them are like, please.

[00:34:31] Like come on now.

[00:34:33] But we talked about this on our Patreon.

[00:34:35] Return Jafar is one of those ultimate.

[00:34:37] You go back and watch it and you're like

[00:34:39] in my memory I was

[00:34:41] improving the quality of this

[00:34:43] thing.

[00:34:44] Return of Jafar was made in 20 minutes.

[00:34:46] It does seem like it.

[00:34:48] It's just crazy that like 40 million

[00:34:50] people have seen a movie that was made

[00:34:52] in 20 minutes.

[00:34:53] Is that roughly the number?

[00:34:55] I don't know.

[00:34:56] Everyone saw that movie.

[00:34:57] It was like quietly one of the most

[00:34:59] watched movies of the 90s.

[00:35:01] Because it was a VHS that was in every

[00:35:03] household for people our age.

[00:35:05] And it was like it was the first

[00:35:07] one where they were like what if we make

[00:35:09] a shittier thing and we just let people buy it?

[00:35:11] And then it like they sold like

[00:35:13] 300 million dollars worth of VHS's

[00:35:15] or something insane.

[00:35:17] But like I think that's OVA is

[00:35:19] kind of seen similarly where it's like

[00:35:21] this is a lucrative business.

[00:35:22] It is not high art.

[00:35:23] Totally. I'm sorry for taking this on a return of Jafar.

[00:35:25] It's important.

[00:35:26] Very good that you did.

[00:35:28] And you truly played Jafar.

[00:35:29] You have inhabited Jafar.

[00:35:31] You have become Jafar.

[00:35:32] I have become one.

[00:35:33] I'm one with Jafar.

[00:35:34] You looked in the mirror and you saw

[00:35:36] you as Jafar with a bloody knife.

[00:35:38] Yes.

[00:35:39] Yes.

[00:35:40] Wearing like a toot.

[00:35:41] What does she wear?

[00:35:42] Like a big pink.

[00:35:43] I love her pop star look in this.

[00:35:45] It's really good.

[00:35:46] Oh yeah.

[00:35:47] Her pop star.

[00:35:48] Yeah. This sort of like frilly pink dress.

[00:35:50] Okay. So he gets basically

[00:35:52] recommended to direct this movie because

[00:35:54] he'd worked with like a project advisor on it

[00:35:56] or what you know.

[00:35:57] And I feel like it is kind of also just a vibe.

[00:35:59] And his work on Jojo was very strong

[00:36:01] and that show was very big.

[00:36:02] And this is like a great opportunity

[00:36:04] for you to dabble.

[00:36:06] Like to start off right.

[00:36:08] Doing OVA.

[00:36:09] Stakes are so low.

[00:36:10] Right.

[00:36:11] They're like we have the rights to this book.

[00:36:13] A pulpy book apparently.

[00:36:14] Yeah.

[00:36:15] A pulpy trashy book.

[00:36:17] He reads this.

[00:36:18] He's given a script which the novelist had written.

[00:36:20] He's like I don't really have any interest in this.

[00:36:22] And he never read the book.

[00:36:24] He only read that.

[00:36:25] But if you let me fuck with it

[00:36:27] and I will still give you a movie about

[00:36:29] like an idol who's being stalked

[00:36:31] and it'll be like a horror movie.

[00:36:33] I'll hit the themes.

[00:36:34] Then like can I make the movie?

[00:36:36] And they're like yeah fine.

[00:36:37] He says he never read it.

[00:36:39] The book is by all accounts more

[00:36:41] of a kind of pulpy slasher type thing

[00:36:43] which he said like I'm not really interested

[00:36:45] in straight horror.

[00:36:46] Right.

[00:36:47] I don't want to make a movie that's just straight up

[00:36:49] like killing after killing after killing.

[00:36:50] Right.

[00:36:51] Like he actually doesn't know why it's called

[00:36:53] Perfect Blue but he was like but I like the title

[00:36:55] so I'll stick with it.

[00:36:56] He brings in another writer

[00:36:58] Sadauki Murai

[00:37:00] who'd also worked on TV

[00:37:02] and had worked in publicity

[00:37:04] and he liked that

[00:37:06] he would basically just sort of

[00:37:08] like know the frame of like this

[00:37:10] kind of celebrity.

[00:37:11] Like this sort of nascent celebrity.

[00:37:13] Murai came up with the idea

[00:37:15] of Double Blind, the creepy show

[00:37:17] that she's in.

[00:37:18] That's cool.

[00:37:19] And Kone is like I brought in like the Internet.

[00:37:22] I needed that to be like a place

[00:37:24] where the more authentic version of her appears

[00:37:26] like you know closer to

[00:37:28] the public image than the real person

[00:37:30] or what you know like like the website

[00:37:32] which in 97 is still like

[00:37:34] daring.

[00:37:36] Like you know like it's still interesting

[00:37:38] I feel like right.

[00:37:39] I mean it's crazy that like 97 to 2007

[00:37:41] his first and last movie both

[00:37:43] are really rooted

[00:37:45] in the Internet.

[00:37:46] Yeah.

[00:37:47] The Internet changes so much within those 10 years.

[00:37:49] Yep.

[00:37:50] And in both moments it felt like he was

[00:37:52] 10 years ahead of where the Internet was.

[00:37:54] Yes.

[00:37:55] Like Perfect Blue is a movie in 97

[00:37:57] that feels like it's about the late 2000s

[00:37:59] Internet and Paprika feels like it's

[00:38:01] about the late 2010s Internet.

[00:38:03] Right totally.

[00:38:04] But I feel like he treats

[00:38:06] the Internet in this in a very like

[00:38:08] spare way

[00:38:10] where it's all you see is

[00:38:12] the meme is room vlog.

[00:38:14] Yeah.

[00:38:15] It's like that's your like

[00:38:17] he could have very easily been like

[00:38:19] and what else is there to explore.

[00:38:21] And like he kept it very focused

[00:38:23] on that. Everything's very focused in this movie

[00:38:25] I feel like. But at the same time

[00:38:27] you can watch this movie and

[00:38:29] transition to a new scene and be like

[00:38:31] did I miss something like which is great

[00:38:33] like it's unsettling. It's not so what he's

[00:38:35] playing with.

[00:38:36] Yes.

[00:38:37] 100 percent right. If I jump

[00:38:39] ahead is that because I'm

[00:38:41] using cinematic language to just sort of yada

[00:38:43] over stuff or you supposed to be confused

[00:38:45] and disoriented because this

[00:38:47] is an unnatural jump. This is a

[00:38:49] thing that isn't happening or shouldn't happen

[00:38:51] or whatever. Yeah.

[00:38:53] Yeah. So you know

[00:38:55] while he's making the movie he's

[00:38:57] doing a good job and Madhouse

[00:38:59] is like OK this is going to get a theatrical

[00:39:01] release. Weirdly that

[00:39:03] means it has to be reduced in running time.

[00:39:05] It's why it's so short. I think maybe

[00:39:07] as an OVA would have been longer. He says

[00:39:09] he had to throw out 100 scenes

[00:39:11] cinema running time is limited. I don't know if it's like

[00:39:15] sort of back to back consideration

[00:39:17] or like just like a cramming in the show times. But

[00:39:19] basically he had to make it after 90 minutes

[00:39:21] anyway.

[00:39:23] We should talk about and they had to like

[00:39:25] reformat it. I mean it was originally going to be

[00:39:27] like designed for four by three

[00:39:29] VHS right. You know. Yeah.

[00:39:31] Wow. Yeah.

[00:39:33] But I did not know the OVA part.

[00:39:35] It's it's

[00:39:37] a classic you know like Diamond

[00:39:39] in the Rough kind of thing. Right. Like several

[00:39:41] of the directors we've covered on the show before

[00:39:43] American directors who got started with Roger

[00:39:45] Corman were part of the model was like this

[00:39:47] doesn't fucking matter.

[00:39:49] We have like sold a space

[00:39:51] for your movie to fit into and what your movie

[00:39:53] is is almost irrelevant

[00:39:55] and here's X amount of money and X amount of time

[00:39:57] and like Roger Corman's line

[00:39:59] was always if you make this movie well enough

[00:40:01] you'll never have to work for me ever again

[00:40:03] right. But he'll take a flyer on a kid who's

[00:40:05] got some gumption half a credit

[00:40:07] under his belt or whatever.

[00:40:09] And this is a case of like the circumstances

[00:40:11] of this movie are similarly like who gives a shit.

[00:40:13] Why not try this.

[00:40:15] And then he over delivers so wildly

[00:40:17] with lines like I'm sorry.

[00:40:19] I'm really sorry. Oh no it's all right.

[00:40:21] I do feel like

[00:40:24] for his

[00:40:26] Stooshkode's big thing is like all out of me in the 90s

[00:40:28] was just about like robot girls like

[00:40:30] and I just didn't want to do that.

[00:40:32] And this is a movie that could be a live action

[00:40:34] movie. He's making it like a live action

[00:40:36] movie in a lot of ways like like the cinematic language

[00:40:38] of it. The jump cuts

[00:40:40] and you know like I feel like is

[00:40:42] but obviously. Paprika's the only

[00:40:44] one that on paper doesn't

[00:40:46] feel like obviously this could just

[00:40:48] be a live action movie and that's ironically

[00:40:50] the one that Hollywood studios have tried

[00:40:52] to literally remake. To crack it open right.

[00:40:54] But also this end Millennium

[00:40:56] Actress both open

[00:40:58] with scenes that feel like they're out

[00:41:00] of a more traditional anime where it feels like

[00:41:02] he's using like to try to acclimate

[00:41:04] people. We're like a Power Rangers thing.

[00:41:06] Right this starts with like a shonen jump

[00:41:08] like sort of thing.

[00:41:10] And then right then kids walk out

[00:41:12] and are like I'm bored and you're into human life

[00:41:14] and it's like he's trying to like

[00:41:16] resettle you into like animation

[00:41:18] doesn't have to be this. We can follow

[00:41:20] other people. Millennium Actress also

[00:41:22] starts with a spaceship launching. Right.

[00:41:24] Yes. I love that scene though.

[00:41:26] It's great but it's so telling

[00:41:28] that his first two movies feel the need

[00:41:30] to contextualize. I know

[00:41:32] this is what you think this is. It's not going to be that.

[00:41:34] I'm going to walk you over to this other. Right.

[00:41:36] Yeah. So cool.

[00:41:38] So the film should we just yeah should we just

[00:41:40] talk about the movie. I mean there's so much in the

[00:41:42] research here which is interesting

[00:41:44] but I feel like I'm just going to be like lecturing

[00:41:46] you guys. You're just going to fire JJ?

[00:41:48] I'm not. Oh he does a wonderful job.

[00:41:50] Dad was born in 2006. Yes.

[00:41:52] David.

[00:41:54] Don't fire JJ.

[00:41:56] Like I think as

[00:41:58] will be true in all his movies.

[00:42:00] The power of animation

[00:42:02] is that he can just have her

[00:42:04] change shape at the end of

[00:42:06] the movie. Right like her be both

[00:42:08] herself and her stalker.

[00:42:10] Like seamlessly

[00:42:12] and you can feel like you're losing your

[00:42:14] mind. Just like she's losing her mind.

[00:42:16] And in a movie that's just going to be a little more

[00:42:18] like telegraph.

[00:42:20] It's just going to feel a little more fake

[00:42:22] which is I think Black

[00:42:24] Swan does it about as well as any live

[00:42:26] action movie ever seen. Black Swan does a good job with it. Which is why I like that

[00:42:28] movie. I think he uses effects

[00:42:30] in a way where it does sort of feel like

[00:42:32] it takes a moment for you to clock that an effect

[00:42:34] has happened. But this

[00:42:36] has the benefit I think he uses

[00:42:38] this in all of his films of like reality

[00:42:40] can change so subtly and

[00:42:42] sneak up on you because

[00:42:44] you're starting out buying into a fake

[00:42:46] reality. You're already seeing

[00:42:48] an abstraction of reality that

[00:42:50] then when that gets stretched

[00:42:52] it takes longer for your brain to

[00:42:54] adjust to it which does

[00:42:56] have quite an effect on you.

[00:42:58] Like you don't realize what the filter

[00:43:00] of the procedural show

[00:43:02] is until like the third time

[00:43:04] they do that. Like he does that where it's like oh

[00:43:06] you were actually watching a scene from the

[00:43:08] show you know. Yes. Like it does take

[00:43:10] a minute visually or aesthetically for that to like

[00:43:12] be encoded. He also

[00:43:14] lingers in the fake reality

[00:43:16] for a minute longer than you think he's going to.

[00:43:18] Every time. Every time. Right. Like you're like

[00:43:20] when are we at? You know you want the relief

[00:43:22] of the zoom out to

[00:43:24] their cameras. And especially as crimes are

[00:43:26] happening in both realities becomes harder

[00:43:28] and harder to differentiate when a scene starts

[00:43:30] with people talking about a crime

[00:43:32] scene. In an animated movie if you stab someone

[00:43:34] all this blood can come out of them. Right.

[00:43:36] In a way that's completely unrealistic and

[00:43:38] is so frightening. Which I was going to say

[00:43:40] how that is

[00:43:42] scarier sort of violence than anything

[00:43:44] that anything like would actually

[00:43:46] human. Right. You know like that happens a couple

[00:43:48] times in this movie where it's just something like a geyser

[00:43:50] of blood. Another thing I think he does

[00:43:52] very well and this is probably the movie where he does it

[00:43:54] where he uses it the most to his advantage.

[00:43:56] But that because of animation

[00:43:58] you can make characters look as

[00:44:00] similar or different as you want to.

[00:44:02] Like sometimes it is to his

[00:44:04] benefit that characters are vaguely indistinguishable

[00:44:06] from each other. Like the members

[00:44:08] of Cham, the band, the group.

[00:44:10] They all kind of have the same. Yeah. That there's that

[00:44:12] disorientation and other times it's like

[00:44:14] someone can have like the widest

[00:44:16] set eyes imaginable

[00:44:18] and they're going to be pinned in your head of like

[00:44:20] no other character looks like this. Right.

[00:44:22] Right. Right. She should just stick with Cham.

[00:44:24] Cham seems fun. Cham seems fun.

[00:44:26] Cham turns into a duo.

[00:44:28] Right? You see them

[00:44:30] on posters for the rest of the movie.

[00:44:32] Like they're just like chugging along. Yeah.

[00:44:34] They start hosting a podcast. They start hosting

[00:44:36] a podcast. And then there's

[00:44:38] an active subreddit about it. Yeah.

[00:44:40] They sing songs. I love that their song as a duo

[00:44:42] is about wearing

[00:44:44] more modest clothes or something.

[00:44:46] Is that what it... I was like trying to read the lyrics

[00:44:48] I was like what is this about?

[00:44:50] I think you're right. This year I'll wear more

[00:44:52] more like everyday

[00:44:54] clothing. This year I'll button up.

[00:44:56] I'll button up. Yeah. Right.

[00:44:58] The angel of love I think

[00:45:00] is their big banger.

[00:45:02] That's a hit. Yeah. They're like

[00:45:04] Atomic Kitten or whatever. Like any of these

[00:45:06] I tried like British pop girl

[00:45:08] bands where they were just kind of like yeah

[00:45:10] we dropped you know Katie.

[00:45:12] We're adding Carrie. Like don't worry about it.

[00:45:14] It's always going to be Atomic Kitten.

[00:45:16] Like that's what's important.

[00:45:18] But you start the movie with these kids

[00:45:20] leaving this sort of like live action

[00:45:22] stunt show version of a Power Rangers type

[00:45:24] thing. Talking about how fake it looked and that they should go

[00:45:26] see a movie instead. Yes. Which

[00:45:28] it's also just nice that like there is

[00:45:30] this weird full circle of paprika

[00:45:32] ending with a man walking into a movie

[00:45:34] theater. That his whole

[00:45:36] career is kind of framed in this way.

[00:45:38] But then you go to the sort

[00:45:40] of surrounding area where this concert's happening

[00:45:42] and you see like they are not

[00:45:44] the Spice Girls. They are not like

[00:45:46] infinitely mobbed but there is an intensity

[00:45:48] around them to an extent that there is like

[00:45:50] black market trading of their materials.

[00:45:52] Because they're being presented in this like

[00:45:54] weird sexual way too.

[00:45:56] Like there's a creepiness to

[00:45:58] their the marketing of them.

[00:46:00] Right. Yeah. Yeah and these awkward guys

[00:46:02] trading each other

[00:46:04] like posters and concert

[00:46:06] recordings and talking about were you there for that one?

[00:46:08] Right. Right. But everyone in

[00:46:10] the audience I think for both of those like little

[00:46:12] concert scenes is male.

[00:46:14] Yeah. Is like a guy.

[00:46:16] Yeah. And I love

[00:46:18] I love the anime thing of like

[00:46:20] erasing everyone's faces.

[00:46:22] Like they do that in video games sometimes.

[00:46:24] Persona 5. It's just like

[00:46:26] the only faces you're seeing in the crowd are like

[00:46:28] the ones of the main characters.

[00:46:30] Should I play Persona 5? Yes.

[00:46:32] Absolutely yes. Subreddit

[00:46:34] go off. Is that the one?

[00:46:36] If I was going to play a Persona game. That's the one.

[00:46:38] That's the one. And the three they just came out

[00:46:40] with a remake of three which is really good.

[00:46:42] But I think five is the one that got me. That was

[00:46:44] my first one and I've played

[00:46:46] it twice and I fucking love it.

[00:46:48] David's been all in a Baldur's game.

[00:46:50] Yeah. I mean I felt like he did.

[00:46:52] Baldur's Gate. I don't know if you did Baldur's Gate.

[00:46:54] I tried. I couldn't do the

[00:46:56] radial menus on a console. No I'm

[00:46:58] playing it on a PC. And I don't have a

[00:47:00] good enough gaming PC. I when

[00:47:02] I moved that was my present to me.

[00:47:04] I'm buying a gaming PC and I'm

[00:47:06] playing Baldur's Gate 3 at night

[00:47:08] after I put my child to bed. Oh yeah.

[00:47:10] Of course.

[00:47:12] But I had to actually take a break from Baldur's Gate.

[00:47:14] It was like kind of overheating my brain. Really? Yeah.

[00:47:16] I got to Act 3 and you get to like

[00:47:18] Baldur's the city and suddenly

[00:47:20] everyone around you is talking all the time

[00:47:22] and you're like Jesus. Like and I just needed

[00:47:24] like I need to play a game about

[00:47:26] shooting an alien for a minute. Like

[00:47:28] I need to like chill out. Go back

[00:47:30] to the Robocop game. I might. Yeah.

[00:47:32] You should try that out. You just walk around real slow.

[00:47:34] There's like a recent

[00:47:36] it's called Rogue City. Right. Robocop

[00:47:38] Rogue City. You're Robocop. Oh uh huh.

[00:47:40] You like waste hippies. I haven't really

[00:47:42] discovered any depth to

[00:47:44] it. Like I'm not sure if there is much.

[00:47:46] I don't know if I need depth. No I know. There might not be.

[00:47:48] Just because it's Robocop I was like

[00:47:50] is there going to be like a satire element to this?

[00:47:52] Instead it's like I have a gun and I

[00:47:54] waste hippie. Yeah but the thing that's fun about

[00:47:56] it is that it's the world's slowest

[00:47:58] first person shooter because they do

[00:48:00] hold you to the physics of Robocop.

[00:48:02] Right. You're never running. This guy can't

[00:48:04] fucking move. That's amazing.

[00:48:06] Yeah. Rogue

[00:48:08] City. Rogue City. I'm going to play this.

[00:48:10] When I beat

[00:48:12] Seven Rebirth and I'm 120

[00:48:14] hours in and I still have not beaten it.

[00:48:16] These games are

[00:48:18] long. And isn't Seven Rebirth

[00:48:20] just half

[00:48:22] of the game right? A third of it.

[00:48:24] Right there's three. Jesus

[00:48:26] ridiculous. Yeah we are grown

[00:48:28] ups. We're grown ups.

[00:48:33] What's up? David. Yes.

[00:48:35] I'm so stressed out.

[00:48:37] I got something to prove. I got shit on

[00:48:39] my shoulder. What's going on?

[00:48:41] Last year I lost Mother's Day. You

[00:48:43] loser. I know. I came in bronze

[00:48:45] out of the three Newman children.

[00:48:47] At least you made podium. There was no

[00:48:49] fourth kid. There's no lower I could

[00:48:51] have ranked. Oh boy.

[00:48:53] Yeah. Well are you

[00:48:55] ready to win Mother's Day and cement your reputation as the best

[00:48:57] gift giver in the family? Yeah absolutely because

[00:48:59] I gave her a blank check t-shirt last year

[00:49:01] and she wasn't that amused.

[00:49:03] Well give the mom in your life an Aura

[00:49:05] digital picture frame preloaded

[00:49:07] with decades of family photos. That's

[00:49:09] what will win me the gold.

[00:49:11] She'll love looking back on your childhood

[00:49:13] memories and seeing what you're up to today.

[00:49:15] Even better with unlimited storage and an easy

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[00:49:23] Although you could also just give

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[00:49:47] David, Mother's Day isn't the only

[00:49:49] major holiday coming up. There's also David's

[00:49:51] Day. Okay. And what if I got you

[00:49:53] an Aura frame filled with photos of Colin

[00:49:55] Farrell? That's lovely.

[00:49:57] And you can sort of chart his rise and fall

[00:49:59] fresh face. Oh, and then rebound.

[00:50:01] Come on Oscar nominee. Well, I'm sorry.

[00:50:03] Rise and fall and rise. Right.

[00:50:08] Okay. So perfect blue.

[00:50:10] Okay. Well, sorry. She's in chair.

[00:50:12] That it's her final show that she's leaving

[00:50:14] the group. Right. She's ready for

[00:50:16] a rebrand. This makes

[00:50:18] Mimania very

[00:50:20] furious who's sort of like

[00:50:22] the avatar of her like creepy stalkers

[00:50:24] this person.

[00:50:26] Her physical reply guy.

[00:50:28] Yes. Right.

[00:50:30] She's the one that I think is

[00:50:32] the most obsessive.

[00:50:34] And it's not just that like it's like

[00:50:36] it's like she's changing from

[00:50:38] I guess like a very clean cut

[00:50:40] image. Yeah. Although I find it maybe

[00:50:42] a little creepy, but she's like supposed to be

[00:50:44] like a good school girl. Right. Yes.

[00:50:46] To like a grown up sexual

[00:50:48] image of like an actress who's

[00:50:50] in like lurid stuff. Yeah.

[00:50:52] And is doing photo shoots that

[00:50:54] are like raunchy. Right. Like, you know,

[00:50:56] like that's the vibe. Right. To a lot

[00:50:58] of people. I think it's like a very different

[00:51:00] model where you it feels like young

[00:51:02] stars go through this era of like

[00:51:04] I want to claim my sexuality and take

[00:51:06] control of it. But for so long

[00:51:08] it was like you're on a WB

[00:51:10] show and then you do Maxim magazine.

[00:51:12] Right. It was like Mandy Moore.

[00:51:14] Right. Like someone who went through that, I assume

[00:51:16] she went through that. But I think she

[00:51:18] seems normalish.

[00:51:20] I think she seems normal. I think she is

[00:51:22] normalish. Just seem.

[00:51:24] I corrected the word seem there because

[00:51:26] very much like

[00:51:28] and she's and she says this. She's like, I'm

[00:51:30] just a mom living in the valley. Yeah.

[00:51:32] Like nobody bothered me. Like I'm

[00:51:34] normal. And I'm like that is remarkable.

[00:51:36] That's sort of like a miracle.

[00:51:38] It's a miracle. Right. Oh my

[00:51:40] God. And she just like listens to

[00:51:42] our podcast.

[00:51:44] She's a podcast lady. She's like let me listen.

[00:51:46] Come on. Blank check Mandy.

[00:51:48] Love Mandy Moore. Mandy

[00:51:50] is a banger.

[00:51:52] F**king pangol's a banger.

[00:51:54] You guys should do Adam Shinkman.

[00:51:56] Have you guys done Adam Shinkman?

[00:51:58] We have not.

[00:52:00] I worked with him.

[00:52:02] You're in an Adam Shinkman movie.

[00:52:04] I was the chipmunk in Disenchanted.

[00:52:06] I spent a lot of time with the good sir.

[00:52:08] Adam Shinkman would be

[00:52:10] all killer, no filler though.

[00:52:12] Like even if I don't like his movies,

[00:52:14] we're not going to be like bored talking about these movies.

[00:52:16] No! Never!

[00:52:18] And of course we did discuss What Men Want on our Patreon.

[00:52:20] We did. We did that.

[00:52:22] We did that.

[00:52:24] So we felt like we had to cover the remake.

[00:52:26] People forget that movie Lowkey made like

[00:52:28] seventy five million dollars.

[00:52:30] He directed in Nora Road?

[00:52:32] He directed the remake.

[00:52:34] I'm sorry, not Nora. Nancy.

[00:52:36] He did What Men Want.

[00:52:38] The Taraji P. Henson

[00:52:40] gender flipped

[00:52:42] remake. Right. She can hear

[00:52:44] what men think. Right. And the joke is

[00:52:46] sort of like, yeah it's called Being a Woman.

[00:52:48] Right. But it's an also joke

[00:52:50] that's like every man is just like

[00:52:52] boners. Like I can't really.

[00:52:54] We saw it. We saw it. We saw it in theaters.

[00:52:56] I was drunk. We were drunk.

[00:52:58] We were collectively drunk.

[00:53:00] But I mean the whole thing with Shinkman

[00:53:02] is the hairspray is so good.

[00:53:04] He's made movies I think are excellent.

[00:53:06] Like yeah.

[00:53:08] He's also made like, you know,

[00:53:10] The Pacifier or whatever.

[00:53:12] I don't like, despite loving Vin Diesel

[00:53:14] more than any... Vin Diesel is

[00:53:16] the one that I go perfect glue for.

[00:53:18] Wow. You're the memania for Vin.

[00:53:20] A little bit. And I like kind of can't stand

[00:53:22] The Pacifier. The thing that

[00:53:24] it's fascinating about Shinkman, I hope I'm

[00:53:26] not betraying anything by saying this.

[00:53:28] But I would like talk to him so much

[00:53:30] in like, I worked on that movie for like a

[00:53:32] year and a half and it was like spread out.

[00:53:34] But every couple of months I'd spend like several hours

[00:53:36] like re-recording everything.

[00:53:38] Right. Your favorite.

[00:53:40] My favorite. I do love it.

[00:53:42] But it was exhausting. And

[00:53:44] like we'd talk about how great hairspray

[00:53:46] is. You would talk to him about how great hairspray is.

[00:53:48] Yeah. Cause I'm sure he loves hearing it.

[00:53:50] I think that's like the best in

[00:53:52] a lot of 15 years and sort of like

[00:53:54] musical comedy and film.

[00:53:56] And he would like talk about everything he put into it

[00:53:58] and why he tried and you know, this and that

[00:54:00] and like that registered and how hands on

[00:54:02] he was. He's got a real director brain because

[00:54:04] he even reached out after our Mandy Moore episode

[00:54:06] and was like cause we talked about a walk to remember

[00:54:08] and he still remembers like

[00:54:10] on day 15 this is what happened

[00:54:12] and Brian was like Jesus I would never

[00:54:14] be able to organize my thoughts that way. I guess it's a good brain to have

[00:54:16] for a filmmaker.

[00:54:18] The flip side of this is I have rarely heard

[00:54:20] anyone talk more critically about

[00:54:22] any movie that they have seen

[00:54:24] as much as he talked critically of Rock

[00:54:26] of Ages. Oh.

[00:54:28] Where he was just like humongous mistake in every

[00:54:30] time. Oh.

[00:54:32] Where he has like a real perspective

[00:54:34] on his stuff in that way.

[00:54:36] Anyway, Shankman Mesa is confirmed 2025.

[00:54:38] Yes. Mandy

[00:54:40] Moore is guest. Let's do him.

[00:54:42] Walk to remember pretty good.

[00:54:44] Yes, this model where like for

[00:54:46] so long it was like if you're a

[00:54:48] child and you want to transition to being

[00:54:50] seen as an adult the only way to do that

[00:54:52] is to hand yourself over to like

[00:54:54] the sexualization machine.

[00:54:56] To some degree hand over your persona

[00:54:58] dehumanize yourself and

[00:55:00] let them run you through the filter.

[00:55:02] No matter how much you are claiming your

[00:55:04] sexuality as your own it is always meal

[00:55:06] gazey. Right.

[00:55:08] This is independent of

[00:55:10] her. Like and she sort of wants

[00:55:12] to do it. But right. The product

[00:55:14] is it's a calculation. Yeah.

[00:55:16] Think of it this way in our

[00:55:18] era the one like

[00:55:20] the thing that like Miley Cyrus has successfully

[00:55:22] done that I feel like has become the model of like

[00:55:24] that's how you go from being a child to being adult and

[00:55:26] doing it on your own terms and your audience

[00:55:28] is growing with you and it feels like she has

[00:55:30] control and autonomy. The person

[00:55:32] who came closest to trying to do

[00:55:34] it that way was Christine Aguilera.

[00:55:36] And there were six years of everyone

[00:55:38] making slut jokes. Yes. Right.

[00:55:40] Versus like when Britney would dance

[00:55:42] with like the snake in the bikini

[00:55:44] people be like yes good we love it.

[00:55:46] Right. And Christine Aguilera is like why

[00:55:48] is she pushing this on us.

[00:55:50] Why is she owning this so

[00:55:52] hard. But she's in she's in that

[00:55:54] transitional stage and part

[00:55:56] of it is like not that she wants to be seen

[00:55:58] as sexier but that she wants to like experience

[00:56:00] some artistic growth

[00:56:02] evolution maturation

[00:56:04] and part of that is now she's going to

[00:56:06] have to like leave the comfort of her pop

[00:56:08] stardom throw herself into something

[00:56:10] greater to prove herself to get to the point

[00:56:12] of where she wants to be. Well then like the weird creepy

[00:56:14] irony of like she gets a bit part on a

[00:56:16] TV show and then they're like

[00:56:18] no we're going to get you a better part.

[00:56:20] Rape fiction. Yes. I'm sorry

[00:56:22] to laugh but like like they're like

[00:56:24] oh you've lobbied successfully for this

[00:56:26] dramatic part where you're going to get

[00:56:28] to act but it's you being attacked

[00:56:30] on screen. Right. Yeah. And

[00:56:32] that is that seems as Cone says he

[00:56:34] thinks he went a little too hard in that

[00:56:36] rapes. I think he did. Yeah.

[00:56:38] Like he's like in retrospect

[00:56:40] like I think I went too far.

[00:56:42] We didn't know this movie was going to be released

[00:56:44] in theaters. We thought we had to make it stand

[00:56:46] out and so I thought we should have a very

[00:56:48] graphic scene

[00:56:50] but like I think it's like when

[00:56:52] I saw it blowing up on a big screen I ended

[00:56:54] up looking down which is interesting little

[00:56:56] it's very upsetting

[00:56:58] and it's like the course the beginning

[00:57:00] of her mental unraveling so it should

[00:57:02] be upsetting. Yes. And it's not

[00:57:04] the thing that is the most upsetting in a

[00:57:06] way is that afterwards

[00:57:08] she's just like okay I guess I'll

[00:57:10] go home. Like yeah. It is

[00:57:12] the argument I will make in defense of how

[00:57:14] upsetting it is is I do

[00:57:16] think it gains power then in

[00:57:18] the contrast of the moments when it stops.

[00:57:20] Where the moment

[00:57:22] is it goes it cuts from the

[00:57:24] rape the rape scene being filmed

[00:57:26] to her getting into her car

[00:57:28] home and being like oh so tired like she

[00:57:30] like which is like very

[00:57:32] like real.

[00:57:34] I was going to say it is so

[00:57:36] spot on for me. Yes. I have never

[00:57:38] had to do a scene of this intensity

[00:57:40] but any time you were witnessing someone

[00:57:42] else do this or you're doing some

[00:57:44] variation of this the moment where they call cut

[00:57:46] and they're like we're going to need like five seconds

[00:57:48] to adjust the light or whatever is the

[00:57:50] weirdest energy in the

[00:57:52] world and the moment where you're like let me just go to the

[00:57:54] bathroom. You know when you're like

[00:57:56] even if you're not living in it

[00:57:58] and you're method about it but it's like your body

[00:58:00] is holding on to some shit. The POV shot

[00:58:02] of her of just the ceiling. Yeah.

[00:58:04] Of like what she's seeing in between

[00:58:06] the take. Yes that shit is so

[00:58:08] good and I do think to

[00:58:10] some degree it needs the contrast

[00:58:12] of the intensity for those

[00:58:14] moments to register as

[00:58:16] kind of specifically as they do.

[00:58:18] Yes. Yeah. Let's also acknowledge

[00:58:20] this is one of those sequences where you're like

[00:58:22] there are direct shots here that feel like they're basically

[00:58:24] photocopied into Requiem

[00:58:26] for a Dream. Oh.

[00:58:28] And that is a sequence where I feel like

[00:58:30] those images are used

[00:58:32] for only really

[00:58:34] for salaciousness and depravity.

[00:58:36] And true like manipulation.

[00:58:38] Yeah it's and I don't dislike

[00:58:40] Aronofsky at all. No no no no. But like that's

[00:58:42] a sequence where it's just like this is

[00:58:44] the depths of depravity in humanity. This

[00:58:46] is the lowest low you can possibly imagine

[00:58:48] versus like he is trying to

[00:58:50] find a way

[00:58:52] to dramatize

[00:58:54] and visualize this very specific feeling

[00:58:56] of like the weird intensity of

[00:58:58] acting on set and the stop and starting

[00:59:00] of it. And like the

[00:59:02] needing to manipulate your own emotions

[00:59:04] create circumstances that feel

[00:59:06] real have people do horrible things

[00:59:08] to you in these agreed upon

[00:59:10] terms is why I think that dialogue

[00:59:12] segment is so good. Yes truly.

[00:59:14] Where it's just like the fact that

[00:59:16] there's like 30 seconds it feels

[00:59:18] like 30 seconds probably 10 or whatever.

[00:59:20] It was you too for my 1.5 speed.

[00:59:24] I just have to remind everybody

[00:59:26] they like all cut and he's just still

[00:59:28] lying on top of her. And there's silence

[00:59:30] for a long time and you're like is this guy

[00:59:32] going to do something creepy. And then he

[00:59:34] says the like thoughtful thing very meekly

[00:59:36] and it's a relief. It's a relief

[00:59:38] but you're also like you could feel in his head

[00:59:40] him being like is it

[00:59:42] worse if I say something or if I just sit here

[00:59:44] silently or like all that

[00:59:46] stuff he gets really well. I

[00:59:48] know and it's I think it works

[00:59:50] so well as the midpoint of the film and then at

[00:59:52] that point she starts to see these hallucinations

[00:59:54] of herself. Right she finds out

[00:59:56] there's this sort of online diary

[00:59:58] written in her voice.

[01:00:00] Mima's room.

[01:00:02] Mima's room. Yes. That is

[01:00:04] very specific and accurate.

[01:00:06] Right it's weirdly accurate it's written in the first

[01:00:08] person like you say and it's almost like

[01:00:10] she's writing a diary without knowing she's doing it.

[01:00:12] And what I told Mandy Moore on our episode

[01:00:14] what reminded me of Perfect Blue was I

[01:00:16] in 2002 was obsessively

[01:00:18] reading her Zenga page.

[01:00:20] Which was like just got off set

[01:00:22] today like literally from the

[01:00:24] fucking movie. Yeah and then

[01:00:26] asked her was

[01:00:28] that your Zenga page?

[01:00:30] It wasn't. No someone else was doing it.

[01:00:32] She had her own Mimania. This is exactly

[01:00:34] the plot of Perfect Blue. And like was that

[01:00:36] even organized or was someone just doing it for fun?

[01:00:38] I think someone was just doing it for fun.

[01:00:40] Because that was before anyone would even bother to do something

[01:00:42] like that. No blue checks.

[01:00:44] Right yeah no blue checks.

[01:00:46] But now of course we know who everyone is on the

[01:00:48] internet all the time. Verifiable.

[01:00:50] Yes of course.

[01:00:52] My when I dropped

[01:00:54] out of college my roommate at the time

[01:00:56] Humble Brash.

[01:00:58] My roommate

[01:01:00] it was a bunch of us like four of us

[01:01:02] in a two bedroom apartment all working like shitty

[01:01:04] jobs. And my one roommate

[01:01:06] the job he got this is 2008

[01:01:08] he

[01:01:10] was running

[01:01:12] the MySpace page

[01:01:14] for one of the other singers

[01:01:16] in Labelle. Not Padding.

[01:01:18] Whoa!

[01:01:20] And basically at that point most of

[01:01:22] that job was like

[01:01:24] responding to messages or

[01:01:26] like wall posts and being

[01:01:28] like no you are my inspiration.

[01:01:30] You know like he was just sort of

[01:01:32] writing in this voice of this like

[01:01:34] woman decades older than him

[01:01:36] who was like a weird tier

[01:01:38] of celebrity. And I was just

[01:01:40] like that is so weird that she doesn't

[01:01:42] do that herself. Who hires

[01:01:44] someone to write their social media

[01:01:46] and now you're like everyone. Everyone. Everyone.

[01:01:48] At that point in time the fact

[01:01:50] that it was one of the other people in Labelle

[01:01:52] was a funny aspect of it

[01:01:54] but I was like can you believe this woman has

[01:01:56] someone write fake correspondences

[01:01:58] with her fans? And then you bring

[01:02:00] up this Mandy Moore thing and David's question

[01:02:02] is well was that someone working

[01:02:04] for her or a stranger?

[01:02:06] I don't think that concept

[01:02:08] existed at the time. Totally not.

[01:02:10] An early like web 1.0 days

[01:02:12] is like no. But now you just kind

[01:02:14] of assume. Yeah.

[01:02:16] Very often and it's like cited

[01:02:18] as this like currency of like

[01:02:20] I think they write their own posts.

[01:02:22] Their voice feels

[01:02:24] like it's actually the who would actually

[01:02:26] they wouldn't send that photo to someone else

[01:02:28] that was taken in the moment they posted

[01:02:30] it right away. Like the first refraction

[01:02:32] of reality is that it's

[01:02:34] like no that's not them. Right.

[01:02:36] Like that is kind of upsetting. And now

[01:02:38] there's two people. And it's a two way

[01:02:40] refraction. Like you as the audience are going

[01:02:42] like am I dealing with a real person or not?

[01:02:44] And this isn't me dealing with them on

[01:02:46] stage or them on screen. Right. This is

[01:02:48] ostensibly supposed to

[01:02:50] be the window into the real them

[01:02:52] and it's probably not. And then

[01:02:54] if you as a person are hiring someone to do

[01:02:56] that you're like I give you

[01:02:58] a thorial voice over me.

[01:03:00] Like that's why

[01:03:02] I think this movie has not necessarily

[01:03:04] like

[01:03:06] it still has something very important

[01:03:08] to say about like technology and the internet.

[01:03:10] I don't think it's totally outdated. No, no.

[01:03:12] I don't think it's really very outdated

[01:03:14] at all. Kind of shocking. I think

[01:03:16] by the simplification of just like

[01:03:18] like you said the internet is like a blog

[01:03:20] that's it. Like there's this one thing

[01:03:22] that's kind of creepy and

[01:03:24] that's the conduit but we don't think about

[01:03:26] like 90s internet in any other way.

[01:03:28] And so this can be

[01:03:30] transposed onto anything. Like it

[01:03:32] both feels like a De Palma movie from 20

[01:03:34] years prior and it feels like you could

[01:03:36] basically make this today. Yeah, yeah.

[01:03:38] And it helps that like even if

[01:03:40] the internet he is

[01:03:42] depicting is in like a

[01:03:44] certain infancy compared to

[01:03:46] what we know today. The intensity

[01:03:48] of what happens out of it

[01:03:50] feels reflective of our relationship

[01:03:52] to the internet still in sort of

[01:03:54] an expressionistic way. I mean

[01:03:56] we'll dig into it in future episodes

[01:03:58] but they're like he was so interested

[01:04:00] in the internet sociologically

[01:04:02] in a way that I think other people

[01:04:04] weren't at that time where they were just

[01:04:06] thinking about the technological possibilities

[01:04:08] and he was like this is

[01:04:10] like this weird device for loneliness

[01:04:12] that like in

[01:04:14] some ways people are presenting this as like it's

[01:04:16] going to solve it and I think it's going to cause

[01:04:18] greater refraction.

[01:04:20] Yeah. Totally.

[01:04:22] What do you think about celebrities who have

[01:04:24] like a different name from their actual name?

[01:04:26] Just like

[01:04:28] is that the first division of

[01:04:30] like personalities where it's like

[01:04:32] you start going by your professional name

[01:04:34] maybe and then everyone starts calling

[01:04:36] you that and maybe only your family still calls

[01:04:38] you your older name.

[01:04:40] I don't know like just like weird shit like that.

[01:04:42] Interestingly right before

[01:04:44] Star is Born came out there was

[01:04:46] talk of her being billed as Stephanie

[01:04:48] Gervanada and not Lady Gaga. Right.

[01:04:50] The Dwayne Johnson

[01:04:52] move. Right. The Dwayne Johnson move.

[01:04:54] And he did transitional stages

[01:04:56] right? He's like went through like

[01:04:58] I'm the Rock. I'm Dwayne the Rock Johnson.

[01:05:00] I'm Dwayne Johnson. Right. And now he uses

[01:05:02] the Rock when he wants to.

[01:05:04] Right. That was the

[01:05:06] moment for Lady Gaga.

[01:05:08] And when that poster came out it was Gaga on

[01:05:10] it. I think all of us were like oh

[01:05:12] interesting. That's a move.

[01:05:14] And now there are like several movies into her career

[01:05:16] and she's like I am Lady Gaga

[01:05:18] as an actress. Yes. And I

[01:05:20] don't think it was the right or wrong move.

[01:05:22] No me neither. But it's interesting because that was

[01:05:24] an inflection point for her. Yes. She could

[01:05:26] have made a change. She did.

[01:05:28] She's Academy Award nominee Lady Gaga.

[01:05:30] Oh. Academy Award winner.

[01:05:32] Oh sure. She is an Oscar.

[01:05:34] First singing. Sure. Her song writing.

[01:05:36] But she was a Schrodinger's Gaga before

[01:05:38] that poster came out. She was both Stephanie

[01:05:40] and Gaga. Who will she be? Right.

[01:05:42] But now she has chosen, we've opened the box and now

[01:05:44] she is forever quantumly Gaga.

[01:05:46] And I've talked about this before but like

[01:05:48] quantumly. Quantumly.

[01:05:50] That's not a real word. But you know what I mean?

[01:05:52] I know what you're saying. I know what you're saying.

[01:05:54] When I joined SAG and I've mentioned this before

[01:05:56] I was astonished by how informal the process

[01:05:58] was where they just go and by the way if your name's

[01:06:00] taken please write down five additional names.

[01:06:02] Yes! Right. And anytime a celebrity

[01:06:04] has explained their fake name.

[01:06:06] Oh I picked my middle name or I picked my mother's

[01:06:08] maiden name. And you're like you put that little thought into it. It's like no they really

[01:06:10] do catch you off guard and they're like

[01:06:12] by the way we'll get back to you in six weeks and tell

[01:06:14] you what your name is. Oh my

[01:06:16] god. That is crazy. And some of those people

[01:06:18] it's like that becomes their name forever.

[01:06:20] And some of those people you hear that like no to

[01:06:22] their friends they go buy something entire. Like Michael

[01:06:24] Keaton still says that everyone who knows

[01:06:26] him calls him Michael Douglas.

[01:06:28] Oh wow. That's his name?

[01:06:30] His real name is Michael Douglas.

[01:06:32] What's his problem with calling himself Michael Douglas?

[01:06:34] What does he think? Well they wouldn't let him.

[01:06:36] I know I know. Cause someone else was already

[01:06:38] roaming the streets of San Francisco.

[01:06:40] Michael Keaton is such- he really hit

[01:06:42] a home run with his fake name.

[01:06:44] That's a really good start. Yeah he was like Buster

[01:06:46] Diane, two great movie stars, I'll be the third.

[01:06:48] That was his thinking.

[01:06:50] Really? Yeah he was like two of my favorite movie stars have

[01:06:52] been. That's a good last name for a movie star.

[01:06:54] Keaton.

[01:06:56] Bullseye.

[01:06:58] It does. You're just right.

[01:07:00] So she's making this show, it's starting

[01:07:02] to make her crazy. Meanwhile

[01:07:04] the only thing in Perfect Blue

[01:07:06] that maybe hits my

[01:07:08] ear a little badly. Sure. The anti-Keaton.

[01:07:10] There's a letter bomb

[01:07:12] attack and then a member of the crew

[01:07:14] is murdered or the cat.

[01:07:16] It's a screenwriter.

[01:07:18] Right the writer is murdered.

[01:07:20] And she's basically told like

[01:07:22] don't worry about it.

[01:07:24] This kind of thing doesn't happen all the time.

[01:07:26] Like a sort of Phantom of the Opera situation.

[01:07:28] Someone's like

[01:07:30] moving around this particular

[01:07:32] project killing people.

[01:07:34] Or trying to kill people. Yeah but as we already

[01:07:36] said, I think this movie captures

[01:07:38] so well is that like she is not

[01:07:40] rich. As much as she had

[01:07:42] this rabid fandom there's this question

[01:07:44] of like is any

[01:07:46] of the currency going to translate?

[01:07:48] She's fighting to get a small

[01:07:50] part. And even when it's expanded

[01:07:52] to like the prime position

[01:07:54] of rape victim in a murder show

[01:07:56] it's still like

[01:07:58] this doesn't immediately lead to anything else.

[01:08:00] You know? So there's this

[01:08:02] like weird contrast

[01:08:04] between the intensity of her life in certain quarters

[01:08:06] and how much she still feels

[01:08:08] like she's needing to prove herself and get any

[01:08:10] foothold. The only control

[01:08:12] she has in her life, the only arena of control

[01:08:14] she has in her life is to feed her fish.

[01:08:16] Right and she keeps questioning whether

[01:08:18] it was a bad move to leave

[01:08:20] the band because there was a sense of

[01:08:22] stability in that. As suffocated as she was maybe

[01:08:24] starting to feel within it.

[01:08:26] She's seeing herself in mirrors

[01:08:28] in her old idol outfit.

[01:08:30] And her

[01:08:32] reflection is talking to her basically saying like

[01:08:34] I'm the real Mima, you are basically

[01:08:36] an imposter slash you know

[01:08:38] you're corrupting Mima. The persona is

[01:08:40] now greater than you are. What you

[01:08:42] created is the dominant personality.

[01:08:44] And the plot of this 81 minute

[01:08:46] movie is pretty straightforward. It's just

[01:08:48] like and yet this movie is so disorienting

[01:08:50] but it's just like she's continuing in her

[01:08:52] career but these murders are

[01:08:54] happening and is she doing the murders or not?

[01:08:56] Like and like not knowing about it.

[01:08:58] Like is she like

[01:09:00] disassociating and like

[01:09:02] also a serial killer. And how much of that

[01:09:04] is her unraveling around this

[01:09:06] real crime that is happening around her and

[01:09:08] how much of it is the

[01:09:10] bleeding in of the work

[01:09:12] she's doing and her trying to get in the headspace

[01:09:14] of this part and live through these traumatic things.

[01:09:16] Cohn compares

[01:09:18] himself to Slaughterhouse 5 not

[01:09:20] in the ways of you know not like I've created

[01:09:22] a generic masterpiece although he did.

[01:09:24] Good job. But just like where he's

[01:09:26] like I just wanted to cut

[01:09:28] out anything ordinary

[01:09:30] so you're just cutting between like

[01:09:32] insane things basically

[01:09:34] like with no transition whatsoever

[01:09:36] to make it all the more disorienting.

[01:09:38] But then the feeding the fish is interesting because he basically

[01:09:40] makes that the one sort of like anchor thing.

[01:09:42] He builds it up is the way he

[01:09:44] talks about like initially it's slower and then by

[01:09:46] the latter half of the film like you

[01:09:48] feel like she never has a moment where she's being

[01:09:50] calm like. Yeah. Right.

[01:09:52] But the fish at the end are like the tell

[01:09:54] that she's not in her. Yeah right they're the

[01:09:56] spinning top. I never I didn't know that he

[01:09:58] compared this to compared this to

[01:10:00] Slaughterhouse 5 or? Like the influence of

[01:10:02] Slaughterhouse 5 is basically like

[01:10:04] the human brain is mysterious I'm quoting him here.

[01:10:06] For example when we remember an

[01:10:08] impressive event that happened 20 years ago that

[01:10:10] memory might follow something that happened yesterday.

[01:10:12] I think everyone has that experience

[01:10:14] like so I wanted to express

[01:10:16] how her stage job in her ordinary life

[01:10:18] for like indivisible she's struggling

[01:10:20] to distinguish between them which is what he does

[01:10:22] in his animation over and over again.

[01:10:24] He can just like bleed into a completely

[01:10:26] new reality without having to

[01:10:28] signify it some way.

[01:10:30] It's interesting that he cites Terry Gilliam

[01:10:32] so much because

[01:10:34] I like many

[01:10:36] of Terry Gilliam's films a lot. Right.

[01:10:38] But like Gilliam I think

[01:10:40] you know some people

[01:10:42] bump on this and if you like

[01:10:44] his work you buy into this but it's like

[01:10:46] he starts out in a kooky world and things are

[01:10:48] going to get kookier right. And there are a couple of his

[01:10:50] films like Fisher King which feels like it

[01:10:52] had more of a direct influence on Satoshi

[01:10:54] Kome where that's one where you're like

[01:10:56] bleeding in and out of reality.

[01:10:58] But Brazil is a movie that's built around dream

[01:11:00] sequences and the reality in that movie

[01:11:02] is also insane. A lot

[01:11:04] of his films have no sort of

[01:11:06] like baseline reality for him to

[01:11:08] jump off from.

[01:11:10] Versus Satoshi Kome is like really

[01:11:12] kind of like

[01:11:14] exploring liminal states.

[01:11:16] Some of his films start out

[01:11:18] with like an acknowledgement of

[01:11:20] this is artifice

[01:11:22] like where that is you're saying

[01:11:24] I've never seen a Terry Gilliam film so

[01:11:26] they're like you know they're very

[01:11:28] cartoonish. Yes I think he's

[01:11:30] a lot of business. He's putting more of a

[01:11:32] frame around it. He's setting more rules

[01:11:34] in place. Kone is? Kone I think.

[01:11:36] And then even when he's

[01:11:38] playing the game of like I'm never going to let you know

[01:11:40] what's totally real or totally fake that's only

[01:11:42] doable because there is a baseline

[01:11:44] sense of what reality is in his

[01:11:46] universe. And he's doing it for a

[01:11:48] reason too. It's like he's speaking to very specific

[01:11:50] psychological states. This movie

[01:11:52] is helped by its smallness.

[01:11:54] Which I'm

[01:11:56] sure is like frustrating when

[01:11:58] any director hears

[01:12:00] me say like I love that like they got a

[01:12:02] zillion studio notes and like had to spend

[01:12:04] every penny. Like because I'm sure that sucks.

[01:12:06] But the fact that he can only tell

[01:12:08] so wide a scope you're trapped with her.

[01:12:10] Like it's good. Like it's like

[01:12:12] it's the perfect amount of intimacy. Like

[01:12:14] you kind of feel you kind of want to tell

[01:12:16] this character like just go

[01:12:18] have like lunch with your friends

[01:12:20] like or something like just like

[01:12:22] get out of this loop. And that it's like

[01:12:24] so focused on one gig right?

[01:12:26] Yeah. Like how many days is she working in

[01:12:28] title and total on this show?

[01:12:30] Like five maybe?

[01:12:32] You know? Like but it's

[01:12:34] the intensity of this

[01:12:36] period. Yep. Yep. Yep.

[01:12:38] Beyond the Light is a movie we've covered on this show

[01:12:40] that I adore. Do you like that movie?

[01:12:42] I have not seen it. You would like Beyond the Light.

[01:12:44] You guys see it. I think you would like Beyond the Light.

[01:12:46] It is in a positive

[01:12:48] way. It is like

[01:12:50] the melodrama romance version

[01:12:52] of a lot of the same material.

[01:12:54] Okay great. Of like a pop star in a

[01:12:56] transitional stage trying to figure out

[01:12:58] her sense of self. But that's a movie

[01:13:00] where it's like there is constantly

[01:13:02] so much energy around

[01:13:04] her. So much happening. Right.

[01:13:06] Big entourage. Right. Yeah. She's trying to quiet

[01:13:08] it all down. And it's like no no no. There's

[01:13:10] like a real, there is

[01:13:12] a weird simplicity to her

[01:13:14] life outside of

[01:13:16] when she's doing her work in this.

[01:13:18] You know? I mean okay yes yes yes.

[01:13:20] Like she goes back to her apartment and it's like she's

[01:13:22] a normal person. She has a small social

[01:13:24] circle. She doesn't have a ton of handlers.

[01:13:26] There aren't a ton of people managing

[01:13:28] her career. But if she's on stage

[01:13:30] it's a lot. If she's on set

[01:13:32] it's a lot. You're so

[01:13:34] right. And that's where like the

[01:13:36] smallness of the movie definitely helps it.

[01:13:40] Compared to his other stuff which is so

[01:13:42] just so great. Maybe

[01:13:44] I've never seen Tokyo Godfathers.

[01:13:46] You'd like it. Check it out. No I see

[01:13:48] I was supposed to watch it this past Christmas.

[01:13:50] Missed my window. Next Christmas. It is an

[01:13:52] excellent Christmas movie. Highly recommended

[01:13:54] as a Christmas movie. Heartwarming.

[01:13:56] And that actually has a good dub.

[01:13:58] Oh great. That one has a really great dub.

[01:14:00] The new dub. And the new Millennium Actress dub is

[01:14:02] good as well. I agree. I like that new dub.

[01:14:04] Millennium Actress is so

[01:14:06] beautiful. This movie

[01:14:08] I feel like there's you know what we're talking about

[01:14:10] is happening for a while and then we see this

[01:14:12] murder scene with the photographer

[01:14:14] where there's no

[01:14:16] build up to it basically. Like

[01:14:18] it's just happening. And you're also not

[01:14:20] seeing it from her perspective.

[01:14:22] She's not an eyewitness there.

[01:14:24] Right. And you

[01:14:26] that's one of those moments where I'm like

[01:14:28] should I flip back?

[01:14:30] Is there something setting this up?

[01:14:32] And you

[01:14:34] know like it's what he's talking about.

[01:14:36] Then we just cut to her waking up

[01:14:38] over and over and over again to the point that

[01:14:40] we lose track of like what

[01:14:42] are days. Right. Like

[01:14:44] when is she in and out of a dream? Like what

[01:14:46] is any of that? You know like Mulholland Drive starts

[01:14:48] with someone's head hitting a pillow.

[01:14:50] And you're like you can do what you want

[01:14:52] with that movie and we will talk about it

[01:14:54] when we do him. And like you know but

[01:14:56] like it does start with someone's head hitting a

[01:14:58] pillow. Right. And you're like okay

[01:15:00] so maybe this is a dream.

[01:15:02] Planting that in your head is a strong possibility.

[01:15:06] Like this movie she wakes up a million

[01:15:08] times or she snaps out of

[01:15:10] it while filming a million times.

[01:15:12] Right. And so you have

[01:15:14] no grasp of the rope.

[01:15:16] Because even the head hitting the pillow

[01:15:18] version in this is just her like

[01:15:20] kind of just turning

[01:15:22] into like the frame or something. Yes.

[01:15:24] Totally legible what's happening.

[01:15:26] No and they're not doing the like

[01:15:28] the classic sort of thing. I do

[01:15:30] love that though. Oh you're all sweaty.

[01:15:34] And if you're like Patrick Wilson or something

[01:15:36] you're shirtless and you're looking

[01:15:38] great. Like you know what I mean? What

[01:15:40] are you referencing? Nothing. I'm just trying to think

[01:15:42] of like a toned actor.

[01:15:44] You know like Patrick Wilson's one of those guys where like he can

[01:15:46] play like a regular guy but you're like Patrick Wilson

[01:15:48] is like you know completely

[01:15:50] built. Yeah.

[01:15:52] I agree with you. I was just suddenly like what's the

[01:15:54] canonical Patrick Wilson wakes up

[01:15:56] movie that I'm forgetting?

[01:15:58] My brain was just like what if there was

[01:16:00] a man in bed and for some reason it

[01:16:02] settled on Patrick Wilson. He would be a

[01:16:04] great candidate for a scene

[01:16:06] like that. Bowen did you

[01:16:08] venture to the lost kingdom with Aquaman

[01:16:10] this last Christmas? Speaking of

[01:16:12] great Christmas movies. I was going to say

[01:16:14] wait that seems like a movie where he would wake up

[01:16:16] in a sweat. He's definitely

[01:16:18] you see his chest in that film much.

[01:16:20] He looks about as good as any person has

[01:16:22] ever looked in a movie in that.

[01:16:24] It's insane. His girls episode is

[01:16:26] I think the most attractive anyone has ever

[01:16:28] looked on film. Yes. And then

[01:16:30] it created this horrible discourse cycle

[01:16:32] and Lena to her

[01:16:34] defense was like no one's

[01:16:36] attractive enough for Patrick Wilson.

[01:16:38] That's the point. The

[01:16:40] point of that episode by the end is you realize

[01:16:42] that like what are these people doing

[01:16:44] together? Right.

[01:16:46] I don't miss the girls discourse at

[01:16:48] all because if you go back and watch now I'm so glad

[01:16:50] there's like a rewatch. Everyone's rewatching

[01:16:52] girls. And you just go like oh this

[01:16:54] is excellent. This is good. It's great

[01:16:56] it exists. Right exactly. Yes and it's

[01:16:58] a great time capsule but it's also

[01:17:00] great right now. It's great right.

[01:17:02] Halfway through the movie I would say

[01:17:04] Mimania basically attacks

[01:17:06] her on set and we seem to be entering

[01:17:08] like you know reality.

[01:17:10] Right. Like this is like a big

[01:17:12] crux point in the movie. Yes.

[01:17:14] Mimania the scariest

[01:17:16] looking person in the world as we mentioned

[01:17:18] to the point that you're like

[01:17:20] could this be like a red hair? He's too

[01:17:22] scary looking. He looks a little like

[01:17:24] Momo. Yeah

[01:17:26] a little Momo. A little

[01:17:28] Oh did you guys ever

[01:17:30] were you guys digimon kids?

[01:17:32] Oh yeah sure sure hit me.

[01:17:34] Mummy Mon's human form

[01:17:36] in season two. Mummy Mon

[01:17:38] season. Mummy Mon

[01:17:40] human guy. Oh no

[01:17:42] there's the villain

[01:17:44] in season two of Digimon.

[01:17:46] Long haired guy gray skin.

[01:17:48] Yeah because Mummy Mon is like

[01:17:50] the sort of like cannonball guy right?

[01:17:52] Like Arukhenymon

[01:17:54] is the late spider lady.

[01:17:56] Yes okay. She has a human form.

[01:17:58] Not the Digimon emperor.

[01:18:00] Not the Digimon emperor.

[01:18:02] He looks cool. He does kind

[01:18:04] of like his vibe.

[01:18:06] We have to drop this I'm so sorry.

[01:18:08] Is it Yukio

[01:18:10] or Kaiwa? This kind of looks

[01:18:12] like what you're describing.

[01:18:14] Can I look at the screen please?

[01:18:16] It's him. Yeah.

[01:18:18] Yeah he is creepy. He's

[01:18:20] again too creepy. The hair over

[01:18:22] the face. Yeah. His face

[01:18:24] looks strange but you're also like

[01:18:26] there's the mystery of what's going on under there

[01:18:28] and he's got that intensity

[01:18:30] of him always kind of like smiling.

[01:18:32] His teeth. The teeth.

[01:18:34] The

[01:18:36] phonated breath.

[01:18:38] And you can't tell like is this guy

[01:18:40] developmentally challenged?

[01:18:42] No right? Yeah you're not supposed to know.

[01:18:44] Is he just unwound?

[01:18:46] Is he like dangerous or is he yeah

[01:18:48] yeah. He is dangerous

[01:18:50] right? Like obviously like he is not

[01:18:52] the true villain of the film in a way.

[01:18:54] He's being manipulated but he does

[01:18:56] attack her

[01:18:58] and she kills him with a hammer

[01:19:00] and I feel like the rest of the movie is like

[01:19:02] in real time like an hour

[01:19:04] right? Like at this point

[01:19:06] the time like shrinks. Yeah.

[01:19:08] Right? Like she's not now going back to work

[01:19:10] after that. Like she gets

[01:19:12] taken back to

[01:19:14] Rumi's home and Rumi

[01:19:16] is of course like the real villain. Right?

[01:19:18] You have the great sequence. It's a movie that is

[01:19:20] hard to keep like the plot in my head.

[01:19:22] Yes. You have the great sequence that's

[01:19:24] the cover of

[01:19:26] the steel book where she

[01:19:28] is doing the murder in front of

[01:19:30] the screen of herself. Yes.

[01:19:32] And you're not sure if that is a nightmare

[01:19:34] if that is right.

[01:19:36] A projection or what's going on there.

[01:19:38] But yeah you're just getting into the state where

[01:19:40] it's like she's just

[01:19:44] abstracting into so many different forms

[01:19:46] of herself. Right. Yeah. Rumi of course

[01:19:48] we haven't really talked about. She's like a former

[01:19:50] idol. She's her manager.

[01:19:52] Right like that sort of seems

[01:19:54] like her closest friend like this is someone

[01:19:56] I'm confident on if she has one.

[01:19:58] Who does not seem to have any social

[01:20:00] circle outside of the people she works

[01:20:02] with. And is that because

[01:20:04] of her past? Is that

[01:20:06] like an occupational thing where like because she

[01:20:08] was a pop girlie in her

[01:20:10] youth like

[01:20:12] so isolated did not ever

[01:20:14] build out her own support. Right. Possibly.

[01:20:16] Right. Yeah. You're always sort of stuck

[01:20:18] with that. Right. And

[01:20:20] Rumi of course is revealed to be

[01:20:22] the writer of Mima's

[01:20:24] Room. The murderer.

[01:20:26] But also

[01:20:28] basically does think she's the real

[01:20:30] Mima. Like it's not like she's just doing

[01:20:32] this like it's sort of like a

[01:20:34] Selena situation. Yeah. Who was Selena

[01:20:36] that was like a little before this right?

[01:20:38] Yeah because the movie is 97.

[01:20:40] Yeah she died in 95. Yeah. So it

[01:20:42] is very Selena. I know

[01:20:44] Selena it was her fan club

[01:20:46] president. Right. She didn't work for

[01:20:48] her in the same way as Intimidly. But yes

[01:20:50] there's a similar kind of like. I never made the

[01:20:52] Selena connection. I that's

[01:20:54] David. That's why you

[01:20:56] write for the Atlantic. Oh boy.

[01:20:58] Yeah. No. Right.

[01:21:00] Just like that. I do feel like it's

[01:21:02] a very like 90s thing. It was like when fan

[01:21:04] clubs were like what are these kind of

[01:21:06] indie

[01:21:08] unsupervised things.

[01:21:10] I remember my parents explaining

[01:21:12] that you're Olivia Rodrigo. You have like

[01:21:14] there's like a corporate structure to your fans

[01:21:16] I assume. Right. There has to be. There has

[01:21:18] to be. Yeah. I just remember right

[01:21:20] when like. Not to diss Olivia. I love

[01:21:22] Olivia Rodrigo. She's great.

[01:21:24] She's great. I remember

[01:21:26] asking my parents to explain

[01:21:28] the Selena thing to me at the time. Right.

[01:21:30] Like what is this? So deeply

[01:21:32] unnerved by the concept where I was like

[01:21:34] wait but why did the person who was her

[01:21:36] biggest fan kill her.

[01:21:38] I don't get that. You're telling me she loves her

[01:21:40] in terms of her action

[01:21:42] and then she murdered her. And my dad

[01:21:44] just started being like well some people are like crazy.

[01:21:46] But they're like really trying

[01:21:48] to dig into that. Like well what is this weird

[01:21:50] line where someone could like be so

[01:21:52] fanatical about something that it goes all

[01:21:54] the way around. The fact that

[01:21:56] there's multiple examples

[01:21:58] of that. Yes. Like you know John

[01:22:00] Lennon. That was the first one I processed

[01:22:02] and I was like no you murder someone because

[01:22:04] you hate them. You hate them.

[01:22:06] When I intend to murder people they will be the

[01:22:08] people I hate the most. Of course. Yes.

[01:22:10] Not the people you love. No. I hope

[01:22:12] you don't murder anyone you love.

[01:22:14] My greatest hope is that I never murder

[01:22:16] anyone I love.

[01:22:18] And I hope I die a hundred years

[01:22:20] from now with this episode as a document.

[01:22:22] He stood by his word.

[01:22:24] Griffin Newman went to the grave not murdering

[01:22:26] a single person he loved. Can we drive back on

[01:22:28] the road please like whatever this

[01:22:30] is. You know

[01:22:32] you got to say about Griffin. He never

[01:22:34] murdered anyone he loved.

[01:22:36] Oh. Haven't done it

[01:22:38] today. No plans to change it.

[01:22:40] I'm just making dead eye contact with

[01:22:42] Ben daring him to not cut this out of the

[01:22:44] episode. Ben don't cut it. Wait can we

[01:22:46] can I find out now. I'm sorry.

[01:22:48] Oh yeah Ben. No please.

[01:22:50] Okay so

[01:22:52] when Bone came in we hadn't seen

[01:22:54] each other in a while. And I mistakenly

[01:22:56] said nice to meet you. No worries

[01:22:58] at all. My worst greatest fear.

[01:23:00] But I wanted to wait

[01:23:02] until we were recording the episode to remind you

[01:23:04] because we of course had recorded

[01:23:06] a blank check episode but we had recorded

[01:23:08] another podcast together. Yes

[01:23:10] please remind me. It was

[01:23:12] of course with one

[01:23:14] Snooki. Oh my

[01:23:16] gosh.

[01:23:18] Snooki and her friend. Of course

[01:23:20] who was Joey?

[01:23:22] Joey. Joey. Joey. Does that

[01:23:24] show still exist? It sure does.

[01:23:26] Really? Yeah. Wow.

[01:23:28] It's all happening or it's happening?

[01:23:30] Happening. Is it still

[01:23:32] like 95% Joey?

[01:23:34] I think so. Okay.

[01:23:36] Did you retain the locket

[01:23:38] of hair that she gave to you?

[01:23:40] I did not retain it.

[01:23:42] What I retain is Joey

[01:23:44] and Snooki really

[01:23:46] trying to tease out of Matt

[01:23:48] that he had a

[01:23:50] that he was well endowed. Yes.

[01:23:52] And when I was slightly uncomfortable.

[01:23:54] They were wasted and I'm so

[01:23:56] sorry that I put you into that situation.

[01:23:58] They were lovely. Oh my god Ben that's

[01:24:00] so funny. Ben was

[01:24:02] her producer for many years. But

[01:24:04] I mean I had truly forgotten about

[01:24:06] this. That was like a brief little moment in

[01:24:08] my career. But I got a. I mean I was not totally brief.

[01:24:10] Like it was a year or two.

[01:24:12] Guys it was brief unless

[01:24:14] not dwell on that.

[01:24:16] Whoa their last episode was called

[01:24:18] We All Survived the Eclipse.

[01:24:20] I kind of want to listen.

[01:24:22] Wow. Alright. It's all happening.

[01:24:24] It looks like they just

[01:24:26] do it on Zoom now. I think they might be

[01:24:28] phoning this in. Oh no.

[01:24:30] Which is fine.

[01:24:32] It's fine. I'm not judging.

[01:24:34] But I had

[01:24:36] one of those like notifications from my photo app

[01:24:38] that was like a memory from

[01:24:40] what. Yeah exactly. I was like

[01:24:42] oh my god. Wow.

[01:24:44] The snuckster. The snuckster.

[01:24:46] That's so funny.

[01:24:48] Snooki she's just still out there.

[01:24:50] She's just still being snooki.

[01:24:52] It is a thing I've kind of memory hold

[01:24:54] that for a while we'd like come into

[01:24:56] records and you'd be like hey guys I'm sorry I was just

[01:24:58] tough with Nicole today.

[01:25:00] Not that you were ever

[01:25:02] saying anything bad about her. No she was very

[01:25:04] nice. You always called her Nicole. But it was just so funny when you'd like talk about

[01:25:07] like the grind of work

[01:25:09] and just casually mention snooki.

[01:25:11] This is what we do now.

[01:25:13] This is what we do. Speaking of

[01:25:15] though just idols who had weird

[01:25:17] celebrity arcs.

[01:25:19] Snooki. Yeah.

[01:25:21] I mean anytime anyone asked me what it was like to work with her

[01:25:23] I'm like can you imagine being in

[01:25:25] your early 20's becoming world

[01:25:27] famous. For being punched in the face.

[01:25:29] For being punched in the face and kind of being a

[01:25:31] drunken mess. Right. Right. I think she turned

[01:25:33] out great and is such a great

[01:25:35] mom and a great person.

[01:25:37] That show had run for whatever

[01:25:39] had been on for like four or five episodes

[01:25:41] I think when the punch happened.

[01:25:43] And my friend Derek and I, my roommate

[01:25:45] at the time we were like have you heard

[01:25:47] that apparently snooki gets punched on Jersey Shore?

[01:25:49] We got to watch this tonight. And we sit down and watched it.

[01:25:51] We had not watched any of the previous episodes

[01:25:53] but it had the energy of

[01:25:55] the Sunday night where people were like

[01:25:57] I think Obama's going to announce that they

[01:25:59] got Osama Bin Laden. Right!

[01:26:01] And there was save time!

[01:26:03] But it was that feeling of like

[01:26:05] the rumors that she gets punched on the show

[01:26:07] tonight. I guess we have to watch this.

[01:26:09] And it was the only episode I ever watched.

[01:26:11] And you're right. It's like the show was big.

[01:26:13] And then her getting punched was like

[01:26:15] the moon landing.

[01:26:17] Where it was like all of culture has stopped.

[01:26:19] It was really

[01:26:21] like one of the first huge realities.

[01:26:23] Yes. Yes.

[01:26:25] Of that era. Sort of

[01:26:27] framework or whatever.

[01:26:29] Yeah. It's like there's versus the real world

[01:26:31] and then there's sort of big

[01:26:33] brother. I don't know. We could talk about this.

[01:26:35] We live in this fucking era now

[01:26:37] where like reality TV

[01:26:39] is such a big part of our culture

[01:26:41] and it is television with like

[01:26:43] characters and narratives and

[01:26:45] season long plots that are now

[01:26:47] more and more moving

[01:26:49] away from any

[01:26:51] sort of classic documentary framing.

[01:26:53] Really like that was the thing when

[01:26:55] The Hills started right? Where people were like

[01:26:57] oh they're just like shooting it

[01:26:59] and cutting it like it's a scripted show.

[01:27:01] Right. They're not giving you the

[01:27:03] conventions. It's not like these are stationary

[01:27:05] cameras in a house and they're moving around them.

[01:27:07] Yeah no for sure. You're like is this the lowest

[01:27:09] budget TV drama of all time

[01:27:11] or are these real people?

[01:27:13] And now we're like deep into like

[01:27:15] 20 years into narratives

[01:27:17] of people like Snooki or Real Housewives

[01:27:19] where you're like they have been characters

[01:27:21] for more than a decade

[01:27:23] now. And you're trying to

[01:27:25] hold the difference between like what

[01:27:27] are the plot lines on the shows they've been on

[01:27:29] and how much of that is massage

[01:27:31] versus who they are as a real person.

[01:27:33] Well yeah because I think

[01:27:35] at least for Housewives

[01:27:37] that's like my one little area of knowledge

[01:27:39] that I have with reality TV

[01:27:41] and it's like these are people who

[01:27:43] like a lot of the pathology

[01:27:45] in their minds

[01:27:47] has to do with them

[01:27:49] believing that they are the people

[01:27:51] that are being shown on TV.

[01:27:53] Yes right that's a good way of putting it.

[01:27:55] Yeah like which is kind of

[01:27:57] makes your brain wrinkle like the more you think about

[01:27:59] it. It's not good for anybody.

[01:28:01] But it reflects onto culture

[01:28:03] like it's all the stuff this movie is sort

[01:28:05] of talking about too.

[01:28:07] Like you're lucky if you have a moment

[01:28:09] like this in the movie where you break

[01:28:11] and you go I need to claim

[01:28:13] myself back from this

[01:28:15] like crazy apparatus that is trying

[01:28:17] to consume. Right the thing that's

[01:28:19] because a lot of people get too far in they can

[01:28:21] never pull out. The many things that are pressing about perfectly

[01:28:23] one of them is like right her ultimate

[01:28:25] motivation as a fan is like she's

[01:28:27] like I own your your image more than

[01:28:29] you do. Right. Like I think you should be

[01:28:31] like this you should be a dress wearing

[01:28:33] idol. You're an idea now you belong to us. You shouldn't be doing

[01:28:35] like cheese cakey photo shoots.

[01:28:37] Right. Like and so

[01:28:39] that I mean the screen

[01:28:41] movie where that is the ultimate real

[01:28:43] you know like it's basically like a Redditor villain

[01:28:45] right. Like a sort of like no I'm

[01:28:47] the fan and I'm in control of what

[01:28:49] you're supposed to be like.

[01:28:51] So ahead of its time but it is

[01:28:53] like

[01:28:55] yeah like a kind of a classic Hollywood story

[01:28:57] too I guess like there's like lots of versions

[01:28:59] of like the fan gone mad

[01:29:01] in like pop culture history

[01:29:03] right. Like I write that's like

[01:29:05] that's a good trope.

[01:29:07] Would your manager try to kill you

[01:29:09] Graf? Would mine? Yeah. When I don't

[01:29:11] respond to emails.

[01:29:13] Are you passing on this or not?

[01:29:15] The whole

[01:29:17] sequence with Rumi

[01:29:19] slash real Mima.

[01:29:21] Yeah. Where it's like this

[01:29:23] like ersatz room

[01:29:25] that she's created

[01:29:27] she's in the dress.

[01:29:29] Yeah. You see her as she

[01:29:31] is but you also see the kind of

[01:29:33] her projection of herself.

[01:29:35] So skillfully done. Right.

[01:29:37] Why is her body changed

[01:29:39] but her face is the same. Right.

[01:29:41] So you think it's some sort of hallucination

[01:29:43] and then you see the different face and then you've seen

[01:29:45] the same shot the mirror. Right.

[01:29:47] It's just very elegant. Very good.

[01:29:49] Then there's just a chase

[01:29:51] really like through the city

[01:29:53] and it ends with this

[01:29:55] it's on the nose but it's great.

[01:29:57] A mirror it saves her

[01:29:59] like she pushes her onto a mirror.

[01:30:01] No she falls herself. Yeah you're right.

[01:30:03] She falls herself. Yeah.

[01:30:05] Right she drops what does she drop?

[01:30:07] The wig. Yes. Yes.

[01:30:09] She has to be herself. Yes.

[01:30:11] Right. She gets so freaked out

[01:30:13] by losing the illusion

[01:30:15] of the character

[01:30:17] that she basically impales

[01:30:19] herself on a mirror

[01:30:21] rather than reveal her

[01:30:23] real self. Right. Tripp's

[01:30:25] like sees her reflection

[01:30:27] with the hair gone and then is

[01:30:29] completely like literally

[01:30:31] destabilized by that and falls. Yeah.

[01:30:33] And then goes into the street

[01:30:35] has reassumed the wig

[01:30:37] sees the truck lights coming at her

[01:30:39] and like shifts into like has the plot

[01:30:41] on her face. Right. Like like there's

[01:30:43] a spotlight on her. I love that shot.

[01:30:45] It's so

[01:30:47] good. It is. That's like one

[01:30:49] of the classic images of this movie.

[01:30:51] Right. Yeah. It's on letterbox

[01:30:53] it's the header image.

[01:30:55] As it should be. Can we talk about the

[01:30:57] poster though? Like what do we think the poster

[01:30:59] is about because it is not really an image

[01:31:01] from the actual movie. It is not. No.

[01:31:03] You mean the sort of classic like you say college

[01:31:05] poster of her like

[01:31:07] lying on her back right? Uh huh. Yeah.

[01:31:09] Well what does perfect blue mean to you?

[01:31:11] I mean right. Question number one

[01:31:13] doesn't even know. No he doesn't really

[01:31:15] know. I mean like I don't think

[01:31:17] except that's like just sort of that

[01:31:19] that that vague

[01:31:21] notion of like oh you know

[01:31:23] fandom is perfect

[01:31:25] blue like you know. The poster

[01:31:27] is interesting. I'm just like looking

[01:31:29] now. Like I said. Because then there's

[01:31:31] like there's like plants and

[01:31:33] flowers. There's this one which looks like it's

[01:31:35] the French poster where the fish are sort of inside

[01:31:37] her body and that feels a little more reflective.

[01:31:39] There's the one that was used

[01:31:41] for the American release of her

[01:31:43] stabbing in front of the. That one's more direct.

[01:31:45] Right. But like this image of her

[01:31:47] kind of like blending into

[01:31:49] the wall.

[01:31:51] It looks like melancholia.

[01:31:53] Like it looks like. Well but I don't know

[01:31:55] if it is a wall. Like because it's kind of like this

[01:31:57] assortment of like you say like plants and

[01:31:59] toys. There's dimension. Right. Yeah yeah yeah.

[01:32:01] Right. So it's kind of like she's like blurring

[01:32:03] into this like

[01:32:05] you know fantasy

[01:32:07] like imagery or

[01:32:09] of like her collected life. I don't know.

[01:32:11] It's a cool image. There's a part of me that wonders

[01:32:13] and she's got like she's got like a bra strap

[01:32:15] down in like sort of a sexy picture

[01:32:17] and like that's

[01:32:19] like the image she's seeking and you

[01:32:21] know it's also like kind of eye catching.

[01:32:23] Also how much of it is

[01:32:25] if you're making an

[01:32:27] anime film at this point in time that

[01:32:29] doesn't have girl robots

[01:32:31] or monsters. Then the thing

[01:32:33] you need to sell is look at this pretty lady.

[01:32:35] Yeah. Well right. And that is weirdly like

[01:32:37] the image that is like

[01:32:39] does have a mood and a tone

[01:32:41] but doesn't totally indicate

[01:32:43] how psychological

[01:32:45] the movie is because you read a lot of

[01:32:47] the reviews and people like especially the

[01:32:49] American critics of the time are like

[01:32:51] well sure is weird

[01:32:53] that they decide to make an animated psychological

[01:32:55] horror movie. Sure right.

[01:32:57] Why isn't it

[01:32:59] right. They just kind of can't get over

[01:33:01] being the thing. Right. Right.

[01:33:03] Yeah. That's not what a cartoon is supposed to

[01:33:05] be. But now like a horror

[01:33:07] animated movie seems so

[01:33:09] not pedestrian but it seems so like oh yeah

[01:33:11] like easily go off

[01:33:13] go off. Yeah exactly. Yeah and even

[01:33:15] in Japan where you had

[01:33:17] a culture where animation was seen

[01:33:19] as a far more like versatile

[01:33:21] thing and a thing that was not

[01:33:23] just for children. Right. There still were

[01:33:25] entire genres that people were not touching.

[01:33:27] Yeah. At all. Totally.

[01:33:29] There wasn't the same sort of like cultural

[01:33:31] infantilization about it but there still

[01:33:33] was this kind of like

[01:33:35] these walls put up. Yes.

[01:33:37] Yeah. Totally.

[01:33:39] There is a happy ending. Yeah.

[01:33:41] Like a pretty straightforward one

[01:33:43] like kind of almost like the end of Psycho

[01:33:45] or whatever. It's like here we are time

[01:33:47] later. Rooney is now in a mental

[01:33:49] institution. She's got

[01:33:51] disassociative identity something

[01:33:53] she thinks she's a pop idol

[01:33:55] and Mima is like I am the real

[01:33:57] Mima like as she leaves basically because people

[01:33:59] are like is this a double or something.

[01:34:01] It is not ending with her like looking in a mirror

[01:34:03] and seeing the wrong image

[01:34:05] which is like an easy way for a movie

[01:34:07] like this to end where it's like it's not over

[01:34:09] you know like half these movies

[01:34:11] would end that way. The last line is no I'm

[01:34:13] the real thing. Hard cut to black.

[01:34:15] It's like a finite

[01:34:17] she's got a sense of self. The film

[01:34:19] came out we can talk about sort of Darren in a

[01:34:21] second because that's like the last thing. The film

[01:34:23] came out was show to film festivals in 1997

[01:34:25] released in Japan February 1998

[01:34:27] did premiere in American theaters

[01:34:29] August 1999

[01:34:31] only made about a hundred thousand dollars

[01:34:33] was not a huge success anywhere

[01:34:35] even in Japan

[01:34:37] even in Japan but

[01:34:39] had to steam though.

[01:34:41] And Cone said like look I was

[01:34:43] hesitant about it being shown in theaters it was not

[01:34:45] supposed to be you know that was not the concept

[01:34:47] of the movie but

[01:34:49] I was perplexed to find that people

[01:34:51] really liked it essentially like

[01:34:53] he feels embarrassed by it a little bit

[01:34:55] he's kind of like this is my amateurish

[01:34:57] first effort like I you know there's a lot of stuff

[01:34:59] I wouldn't do but you know

[01:35:01] it's obviously a masterpiece. Yeah it was also

[01:35:03] it was so cheap and

[01:35:05] was built into this like OVA

[01:35:07] model where it was basically designed

[01:35:09] where it could not lose money

[01:35:11] so even though it wasn't highly

[01:35:13] successful the fact that

[01:35:15] it was so well regarded immediately

[01:35:17] gave him like well people want

[01:35:19] to keep giving you money. I was

[01:35:21] going to say blank check but he wasn't quite a blank check status

[01:35:23] but it was like we're

[01:35:25] writing checks for you. Yeah. And I

[01:35:27] think even there are like quotes in the dossier

[01:35:29] from his producers who were just like the mere fact

[01:35:31] that this thing was getting into festivals

[01:35:33] was very bizarre. Yeah.

[01:35:35] Because this was not the track

[01:35:37] it was ever intended for

[01:35:39] so even if it's not winning huge awards

[01:35:41] or really crossing over with the public

[01:35:43] the fact that it was just taken seriously

[01:35:45] that was starting to write

[01:35:47] the checks a little bit made everyone have to take him

[01:35:49] seriously as a filmmaker. Yeah.

[01:35:51] Right. I was curious you guys

[01:35:53] don't think he is blank check status?

[01:35:55] I think he did

[01:35:57] get there. I think Paprika is pretty

[01:35:59] blank checky. That's the one. Yeah.

[01:36:01] And he would have only had

[01:36:03] been able to do more had he not

[01:36:05] died young. We've certainly got

[01:36:07] over time elastic with our

[01:36:09] definition of blank check in order to

[01:36:11] broaden the types of people we can cover on the

[01:36:13] show different types of careers and everything

[01:36:15] I think he is

[01:36:17] he's blank checking the sense that every movie

[01:36:19] he made feels like exactly what he

[01:36:21] wanted to make. Yeah. And

[01:36:23] I think the literal part of the check of how much

[01:36:25] money they're giving you is often the least

[01:36:27] interesting part because even within

[01:36:29] a very small budget level at something

[01:36:31] designed to go straight to video

[01:36:33] they let him throw out the original script

[01:36:35] not really concern himself with

[01:36:37] the book and make the thing he wanted to make.

[01:36:39] For sure. Yeah. He has

[01:36:41] a lot of esteem like we said. Like

[01:36:43] that helped. Darren Aronofsky.

[01:36:45] Aronofsky. I will never

[01:36:47] know. Yeah. Loved this

[01:36:49] movie watched it fresh off of making

[01:36:51] pie. There's lots of internet

[01:36:53] rumors that he optioned this film but it

[01:36:55] appears he never actually did

[01:36:57] but Requiem for a Dream

[01:36:59] he does basically recreate a couple

[01:37:01] shots. Yeah. The bathtub

[01:37:03] with the bathtub scream is like the

[01:37:05] big thing. Right. The assault

[01:37:07] scene in the show within the show becomes

[01:37:09] the businessman

[01:37:11] show at the end. Yes.

[01:37:13] Do they say that? I don't remember.

[01:37:15] Does someone say it like really

[01:37:17] quietly?

[01:37:21] With a gentle tone.

[01:37:23] Cone remarked on this. He said

[01:37:25] look he's supposedly a real fan of the

[01:37:27] movie and I got to talk to him when he came here

[01:37:29] for Requiem for a Dream

[01:37:31] and I asked him about the

[01:37:33] the bathtub scream

[01:37:35] like him basically using

[01:37:37] this and he said it was an homage

[01:37:39] and I think Cone

[01:37:41] was it's hard to discern

[01:37:43] his tone in this interview. He's laughing like

[01:37:45] where he's like an homage to me like

[01:37:47] and you know Jennifer Connelly is doing

[01:37:49] that scene you know and

[01:37:51] when I asked him he said it's all an homage

[01:37:53] I learned a lot from now on I'm not going to call

[01:37:55] it adaptation it's an homage. It's full

[01:37:57] of homages but whenever I make a film I

[01:37:59] do find myself paying homage to films I

[01:38:01] really like. So there's like a sarcastic

[01:38:03] edge to that. Sure.

[01:38:05] Where he's kind of like okay buddy thanks for

[01:38:07] the homage like basically

[01:38:09] it's just but like I don't it also doesn't seem

[01:38:11] like too venomous like

[01:38:13] he's kind of like ribbing

[01:38:15] him. I think that's always earthed me that

[01:38:17] I do think flattens the discourse

[01:38:19] is when I'll see people try to frame

[01:38:21] it this and then also with

[01:38:23] Paprika and Inception as like it

[01:38:25] is plagiarism. No no.

[01:38:27] These guys stole it and it's like

[01:38:29] there are similarities there are

[01:38:31] direct echoes and like homages

[01:38:33] but it's not like Darren Aronofsky

[01:38:35] changed like the wording of four things

[01:38:37] he took elements from it and he reused

[01:38:39] them pretty directly in his own films in

[01:38:41] different contexts which a lot

[01:38:43] of filmmakers do many people

[01:38:45] who were valorized. I think

[01:38:47] it has stuck more

[01:38:49] as a conversation point with Cone

[01:38:51] because it's like at the time

[01:38:53] that these movies were getting a lot of

[01:38:55] attention these American films

[01:38:57] these western films that were

[01:38:59] like blowing up and using

[01:39:01] echoes of his work

[01:39:03] his movies were still like

[01:39:05] kind of under scene. He's a foreign

[01:39:07] filmmaker like it was like

[01:39:09] it's not Tarantino riffing on

[01:39:11] a 70s movie he loves

[01:39:13] it's like this is two years later

[01:39:15] and as a guy taking

[01:39:17] a thing that most people wouldn't

[01:39:19] know and repurposing it

[01:39:21] in a way where people can assume it's his own

[01:39:23] like I do not ascribe any malicious

[01:39:25] intent to it. I don't either

[01:39:27] now but like back in like

[01:39:29] right as Inception came out it was

[01:39:31] like I was one of those people who was like

[01:39:33] this is Paparica yeah but now

[01:39:35] right. Right.

[01:39:37] With the passage of time it kind

[01:39:39] of softened on that. Yeah.

[01:39:41] Let's play a box box game. I don't know is there anything

[01:39:43] else to say about Perfect Blue?

[01:39:45] It's pretty great

[01:39:47] it's pretty great and it's direct as

[01:39:49] we've said. Yes it's short

[01:39:51] and blunt and beautifully

[01:39:53] done but it is

[01:39:55] you know it just happens

[01:39:57] to be like feels like feel like one of the most

[01:39:59] influential films ever made. Yeah it's another

[01:40:01] one of these first film things of like

[01:40:03] sometimes someone just makes a first movie

[01:40:05] that is like the cleanest simplest version

[01:40:07] of their preoccupations

[01:40:09] and they're never

[01:40:11] expanding in these territories

[01:40:13] like for the rest of his career in great

[01:40:15] ways but Perfect Blue is the simplest thing

[01:40:17] of like reality and fantasy bleeding

[01:40:19] together. Yeah. Right.

[01:40:21] And like reality and media

[01:40:23] reality and technology like all these

[01:40:25] right what is it to be famous? What is it

[01:40:27] to have a public persona?

[01:40:29] Right. I mean Millennium Actress is such

[01:40:31] we'll talk about that next week

[01:40:33] but like it's such a crazy counterpart to this movie

[01:40:35] because it really feels like him making the nice version

[01:40:37] of this movie. It's nice and romantic. Yes.

[01:40:39] Like the sort of gentle

[01:40:41] 100 percent. It's sad and tragic but it's not trying to

[01:40:43] torture you. No. No. Who are you

[01:40:45] talking to about that? Our friend

[01:40:47] Hoi Tran was on

[01:40:49] that episode and was great

[01:40:51] we've got great guests on this

[01:40:53] miniseries generally. It's a short miniseries?

[01:40:55] Well then we're doing Paranoia

[01:40:57] Agents. That's true. Which I've never seen.

[01:40:59] Check it out man I'm watching it right now.

[01:41:01] Griffin are you watching it? I'm watching it. How many

[01:41:03] episodes like? I think 13

[01:41:05] like 25 minute

[01:41:07] episodes like you know it's

[01:41:09] not too

[01:41:11] overwhelming. This is what I love about

[01:41:13] TV anime is that it's like

[01:41:15] it's great. You can just get

[01:41:17] it all done in like a week. I'm just

[01:41:19] popping one in a night. Nice.

[01:41:21] Like a little allergy pop.

[01:41:23] Popping. Like

[01:41:25] a little disc or something. How do you

[01:41:27] this is a thing. How do I consume? Or no sorry

[01:41:29] we're going to. Someone came up to me

[01:41:31] at the Atlantic once and was like David how do you take pills

[01:41:33] and I was like take one

[01:41:35] out. Yeah. Right put it on the tongue.

[01:41:37] I would say that's how I do it. Okay so your but David

[01:41:39] mind was pulling with two fingers

[01:41:41] out of a bottle. Sticking your tongue

[01:41:43] out and then placing

[01:41:45] it on the tongue. He was like that's right. That's

[01:41:47] how half of people take pills the other half

[01:41:49] of people just sort of put it in their mouth. That's what

[01:41:51] I do. Right. And he was like

[01:41:53] and yet in movies 100 percent of the time

[01:41:55] people throw a pill into their mouth.

[01:41:57] Yes. Which is not something

[01:41:59] pop their head back. Yes which is not something

[01:42:01] that anyone does in real life.

[01:42:03] Do you agree with me that this is how it's usually shown in movies?

[01:42:05] Oh my god. Yes and he was like I'm

[01:42:07] writing a story about how insane

[01:42:09] this is. And he did. You can

[01:42:11] read it. It's really funny. I never

[01:42:13] thought about that. But it was one of those classic

[01:42:15] things where he was like how do you take a pill and I was like

[01:42:17] Daniel please. Like what a boring question.

[01:42:19] You know and he was like uh huh

[01:42:21] then why does no one in movies know how to do this.

[01:42:23] Wow. You know

[01:42:25] I think even the subtler

[01:42:27] variation of what he's talking about because

[01:42:29] you just let him do this like

[01:42:31] that's what I was going to say. Right. Flat palm

[01:42:33] poured on there and then like

[01:42:35] smack your mouth. I assume

[01:42:37] the reason for this is partly like you don't actually

[01:42:39] want to swallow pills like

[01:42:41] actual pills. I think it's also just actors

[01:42:43] want to put mustard on it. If you get

[01:42:45] a shot like that where you're like and this setup

[01:42:47] what do I do in this setup? You just take a pill

[01:42:49] and you have to do it 13 times. At some point

[01:42:51] you start doing it in a slightly different way

[01:42:53] to make it interesting. Right. Right.

[01:42:55] You're like what's a little more visual? I guess

[01:42:57] I guess so. But then

[01:42:59] but then the glass of water

[01:43:01] but then the water drinking is

[01:43:03] sort of in the same

[01:43:05] range of motion where it's like

[01:43:07] they throw their they toss

[01:43:09] it back. I also feel like most

[01:43:11] actors play it like it's like oh

[01:43:13] it's hard to get down.

[01:43:15] Right. It's a struggle. Where it's like

[01:43:17] I don't know. I remember in Angels in America

[01:43:19] the HBO miniseries

[01:43:21] version of it

[01:43:23] Justin Kirk put all his pills on

[01:43:25] his tongue when he's like taking this

[01:43:27] like giant symphony of medicine

[01:43:29] and you

[01:43:31] watch him do it and then you're like

[01:43:33] God that looks so annoying. And like that's the point

[01:43:35] of the scene. But it's like one of the only times

[01:43:37] I can think of like yes that's actually how people

[01:43:39] might take pills. Well that's

[01:43:41] Mike Nichols for you. That's right.

[01:43:43] He would

[01:43:45] as we all read in that book

[01:43:47] Mark Harris's great book. I loved

[01:43:49] that book. That book was fantastic.

[01:43:51] It was fantastic. Mike Nichols

[01:43:53] infamous pill workshops.

[01:43:55] We'll do them one day on blank check. We will.

[01:43:57] I mean that's a long

[01:43:59] series. That's the whole thing.

[01:44:01] He's one of those guys who are like what a classic

[01:44:03] arc but anytime someone requires us

[01:44:05] to carve out half a year.

[01:44:07] Yeah that is like literally 20

[01:44:09] plus. Yeah it's like 22 ends

[01:44:11] up being like close to six months.

[01:44:13] I think I think he got up there right.

[01:44:15] It's it's 18 plus

[01:44:17] Guild Alive. Okay so it's doable.

[01:44:19] It's a five. All right. So

[01:44:21] Griffin this film did come out in August

[01:44:23] 1999. August 20th 1999

[01:44:25] in America.

[01:44:27] This is a month we've talked about so much. We have.

[01:44:29] Obviously

[01:44:31] it's opening on like one screen for

[01:44:33] like nine thousand dollars. So it's not in our top

[01:44:35] five. What is number one obviously?

[01:44:37] You know what number one is.

[01:44:39] The king of August 1999.

[01:44:41] The reason we do the box office game.

[01:44:43] Right. So is this the weekend

[01:44:45] after Thomas Crown comes out or

[01:44:47] two? This is two

[01:44:49] weeks after the Thomas

[01:44:51] Crown affair comes out. Okay is Thomas Crown still in the

[01:44:53] five? No. It's dropped to number

[01:44:55] six. Wow. Number two

[01:44:57] at the box office. Six ends number one

[01:44:59] and it's third week of release. Number two is

[01:45:01] a comedy. Great comedy.

[01:45:03] Something about Mary?

[01:45:05] Hollywood comedy. It's both fingers.

[01:45:07] Bowfinger. Was that

[01:45:09] late or is this week two? Week two of

[01:45:11] Bowfinger. Do you like Bowfinger?

[01:45:13] I've never seen Bowfinger.

[01:45:15] Bowen? Put it on the list.

[01:45:17] Bowenfinger. You might be calling yourself Bowenfinger.

[01:45:19] Bowfinger's funny.

[01:45:21] Bowfinger's great.

[01:45:23] Very acidic obviously.

[01:45:25] Number three.

[01:45:27] Just listening to the big

[01:45:29] picture Steve Martin Hall of Fame

[01:45:31] where I feel like they were like

[01:45:33] Bowfinger and I'm like I think Bowfinger

[01:45:35] is top tier. Maybe let's have five minutes on

[01:45:37] Bowfinger please. Right. Yeah.

[01:45:39] Especially since he wrote it.

[01:45:41] Yeah he wrote it. It's like his last

[01:45:43] tourist comedy and I

[01:45:45] contend it's Eddie Murphy's best performance ever

[01:45:47] and I don't take that lightly.

[01:45:49] Got you suckers.

[01:45:51] Also the funniest Scientology parody

[01:45:53] is in Bowfinger.

[01:45:55] It makes fun of Mindhead.

[01:45:57] Bowfinger's also like

[01:45:59] Christine Baranski.

[01:46:01] Yeah Baranski, Terrence

[01:46:03] Stamp. Jamie Kennedy.

[01:46:05] Well.

[01:46:07] Our finest. All of our

[01:46:09] funest.

[01:46:11] Robert Downey Jr.

[01:46:13] Yeah for like five minutes.

[01:46:15] Number three, new this week

[01:46:17] is a film we will one day cover on this podcast

[01:46:19] Griffin. It's another comedy.

[01:46:21] Much like Bowfinger. I'm saying this.

[01:46:23] A film we will cover on this podcast.

[01:46:25] Frank Oz film. We'll do Frank Oz one day.

[01:46:27] This is another comedy. It's new this week.

[01:46:29] Now I've only seen this film once.

[01:46:31] My memory is not very good.

[01:46:33] We're going to cover it because an actor

[01:46:35] is in it. Yes.

[01:46:37] Mickey Blue Eyes. Have you seen Mickey Blue Eyes Bowen?

[01:46:39] I've never seen Mickey Blue Eyes.

[01:46:41] Now you see Hugh Grant, he's English. But what if he met

[01:46:43] a mafia gangster?

[01:46:45] Yes.

[01:46:47] Because he's marrying the mafia gangster's daughter.

[01:46:49] That's the plot.

[01:46:51] Gene Triple Horn of course who just reeks

[01:46:53] Italian American. Gene Triple Horn the

[01:46:55] most South Brooklyn lady in

[01:46:57] Hollywood. Now Bowen we

[01:46:59] believe she's from Tulsa. We are obsessed.

[01:47:01] And of course James Kahn is Jewish.

[01:47:03] But Joe Vitarelli.

[01:47:05] We're obsessed with Joe Vitarelli who you might remember

[01:47:07] played the role of Jelly and analyzed this

[01:47:09] and analyzed that. I've never seen

[01:47:11] analyzed this and analyzed that.

[01:47:13] Here he is.

[01:47:15] A real

[01:47:17] wrinkle face. He's one of these guys

[01:47:19] who became like an overnight success

[01:47:21] Hollywood character actor at like

[01:47:23] 45. Some guy.

[01:47:25] And people were like what were you doing before that?

[01:47:27] And he's like nothing I can tell you.

[01:47:29] Hey get off my back.

[01:47:31] And then as like a run of

[01:47:33] 10 years of being like incredible

[01:47:35] character actor with that face and that vibe

[01:47:37] but analyze this and that are like

[01:47:39] the pinnacle of that.

[01:47:41] To the point where in the trailer

[01:47:43] for analyze that we've said this so many times

[01:47:45] they do the like

[01:47:47] actor called

[01:47:49] Crystal Kudrow. Jelly Joe.

[01:47:51] They name his

[01:47:53] character. Cause they're like

[01:47:55] everyone loves this character.

[01:47:57] And that he's played across different films.

[01:47:59] He's only in the analyze

[01:48:01] but he's also in

[01:48:03] Mickey Blue Eyes is basically

[01:48:05] the same character. Playing basically the same character.

[01:48:07] So at one point

[01:48:09] David and I decided to codify the

[01:48:11] Jelly Trilogy. Right.

[01:48:13] Analyze this.

[01:48:15] Mickey Blue Eyes and analyze that where we're like

[01:48:17] in our Galaxy Brown take that's also a

[01:48:19] Jelly film. Right. So we're going to talk

[01:48:21] about that sometime. Oh my god.

[01:48:23] They've created a mobster.

[01:48:25] Have you seen Mickey Blue Eyes? I don't think

[01:48:27] I ever saw it. Yeah in my memory it's pretty bad

[01:48:29] but maybe it'll charm the hell out of us.

[01:48:31] I should save this story for

[01:48:33] the Mickey Blue Eyes episode. Okay.

[01:48:35] Number four at the box office is another

[01:48:37] comedy. It came up on two Mike

[01:48:39] Check episodes in a row because I like

[01:48:41] her particular joke in it.

[01:48:43] It's Runaway Bride. Surely you

[01:48:45] have seen Runaway Bride. I've seen Runaway Bride.

[01:48:47] Can you deliver the joke again? When she

[01:48:49] runs away from his wedding.

[01:48:51] She runs away. She's the Runaway. The titular act.

[01:48:53] She doesn't. Yeah. She jumps on a

[01:48:55] FedEx truck to get away.

[01:48:57] Richard Gere's running after her.

[01:48:59] Hector Elizondo and

[01:49:01] Rita Wilson. Not Jolie Fisher

[01:49:03] who I usually say

[01:49:05] it is. And then I wrote her notes. Rita Wilson.

[01:49:07] Rita Wilson says

[01:49:09] where's she going? And Hector Elizondo

[01:49:11] says I don't know but wherever

[01:49:13] it is she'll be there by 10am tomorrow

[01:49:15] or whatever. And everyone

[01:49:17] went crazy in my theater

[01:49:19] because it's funny. In 1999

[01:49:21] you remember? 1999. I remember it so well.

[01:49:23] Dave remembers it as the greatest

[01:49:25] response he has ever heard to anything.

[01:49:27] You cite it as like

[01:49:29] you've never heard an audience react. It was like Stone Cold

[01:49:31] Steve Austin at WrestleMania.

[01:49:33] Like the pop in the audience.

[01:49:35] Do you like Runaway Bride?

[01:49:37] Not a film I've seen since.

[01:49:39] Yeah not a film I've seen since childhood.

[01:49:41] She's a Runaway Bride.

[01:49:43] Not her best.

[01:49:45] Putting sneakers on.

[01:49:47] It's a Runaway!

[01:49:49] Is Notting Hill the same?

[01:49:51] In the span of 12

[01:49:53] months, Notting Hill

[01:49:55] Runaway Bride and

[01:49:57] Aaron Brockovich all come out.

[01:49:59] It's 99 to 2000.

[01:50:01] That's pretty impressive.

[01:50:03] Runaway Bride made a ton of money.

[01:50:05] Number 5

[01:50:07] The Box Office Griffin.

[01:50:09] It's the box office success story of the year

[01:50:11] even more so than The Sixth Sense.

[01:50:13] What is it? Star Wars Episode I The Fifth Menace?

[01:50:15] That's number 16.

[01:50:17] Not the highest score, the most interesting

[01:50:19] story is The Blair Witch Project.

[01:50:21] Which is now

[01:50:23] announced to be rebooted yet again.

[01:50:25] Jason Blum has

[01:50:27] snatched those rights.

[01:50:29] Do you like The Blair Witch Project, Bowen?

[01:50:31] Guys, this is my

[01:50:33] thing. I am

[01:50:35] one of the most film-illiterate people out there.

[01:50:37] You are not!

[01:50:39] That's not true.

[01:50:41] But that's like my one little outlier.

[01:50:43] I really haven't seen

[01:50:45] most films. He hasn't seen the Jelly Trilogy.

[01:50:47] I haven't seen the Jelly Trilogy and I have

[01:50:49] not seen Blair Witch Project.

[01:50:51] That movie freaks me out more than anything

[01:50:53] to this day. I remember

[01:50:55] MADtv did a parody of the

[01:50:57] Oscars where

[01:50:59] someone

[01:51:01] was singing, it was

[01:51:03] an Oscars where someone was singing the song

[01:51:05] from Book of Shadows Blair Witch 2.

[01:51:07] And I think that's one of their

[01:51:09] very

[01:51:11] That's

[01:51:13] funny. Book of Shadows Blair Witch 2

[01:51:15] is one of the craziest premises for

[01:51:17] a horror sequel ever. I assume you don't

[01:51:19] know the premise of the film. But it

[01:51:21] is literally people, the

[01:51:23] characters saw The Blair Witch Project,

[01:51:25] thought it was real, so they

[01:51:27] went to the place they think

[01:51:29] it's set in and then some crazy

[01:51:31] shit happens to them. But it's like

[01:51:33] a film that acknowledges that their Blair Witch

[01:51:35] Project is a movie. And it's also a

[01:51:37] traditional narrative

[01:51:39] scripted film, a traditional film language

[01:51:41] directed by a documentary

[01:51:43] filmmaker. Oh! Right.

[01:51:45] Who had made true crime documentaries,

[01:51:47] had done the like Westman Pitcher

[01:51:49] Of course, yeah. So it doesn't work?

[01:51:51] It doesn't. It's one of those

[01:51:53] things that on paper you're like, this has

[01:51:55] to be interesting and you watch it and you're like,

[01:51:57] this is weirdly not interesting.

[01:51:59] But it speaks so much to like

[01:52:01] mainstream filmmaking

[01:52:03] thought at the time. Because it's even like

[01:52:05] artisan. It's like an independent studio

[01:52:07] but they were like, there's this found

[01:52:09] footage of movie that felt so real people

[01:52:11] thought it was real. And it created

[01:52:13] a cultural phenomenon. We have to make

[01:52:15] a sequel. Well, obviously we're going to make it a normal

[01:52:17] movie this time. We can't do that

[01:52:19] weird shit again. But I also

[01:52:21] just feel like the fact that this pitch got

[01:52:23] through the door rather than just like, yeah, it's a

[01:52:25] movie about the Blair Witch terrorizing some

[01:52:27] people is that like they had to

[01:52:29] make it so fast. Right?

[01:52:31] Like, oh, this is hot. Because the movie comes out

[01:52:33] a year later. You know, the guy

[01:52:35] comes and he's like, well, what about this? And they're like,

[01:52:37] um, yeah, you know what?

[01:52:39] Like, this is the camera and you can

[01:52:41] go to Blair Witchland anytime.

[01:52:43] Just can you be done by May?

[01:52:45] Ten years later,

[01:52:47] Jason Blum with Paranormal

[01:52:49] Activity. Similarly, those

[01:52:51] movies they turn out the sequels. Each one comes

[01:52:53] out like a year later to the date.

[01:52:55] And he was like, you know what we're going to do? We're going to set

[01:52:57] up a camera in a different fucking

[01:52:59] couple's bedroom. There is a language to these

[01:53:01] movies. We know what they bought. We're going to do

[01:53:03] it again. They sure did.

[01:53:05] We're not changing the

[01:53:07] Paranormal Activity 3. The best one

[01:53:09] is set in the 80s and has to have so much dialogue

[01:53:11] of people being like, I know it's crazy we have so many cameras.

[01:53:13] That's also the exact

[01:53:15] thing people liked about it though.

[01:53:17] That movie rocks.

[01:53:19] I run a small

[01:53:21] business that films kids birthday parties

[01:53:23] and you were like, God justification!

[01:53:25] Way better than the fifth one that's like

[01:53:27] the Xbox Kinect is haunted.

[01:53:29] And you're like, OK, guys.

[01:53:31] There's one where the

[01:53:33] Xbox keeps turning on and you're like,

[01:53:35] guys. Oh my God.

[01:53:37] This activity is not

[01:53:39] paranormal enough.

[01:53:41] And they're like, OK, we got it. We got it.

[01:53:43] We're only going to make four more.

[01:53:45] It's run in the world.

[01:53:47] All right.

[01:53:49] Number six is The Thomas Crown Affair.

[01:53:51] Number seven is

[01:53:53] Universal Soldier 2 The Return

[01:53:55] new this week. That's the one with Van Damme

[01:53:57] and Goldberg.

[01:53:59] But no Dolph? No Dolph.

[01:54:01] No Dolph. No Dolph.

[01:54:03] Maybe Michael J.

[01:54:05] White? I believe so.

[01:54:07] Never seen. We'll do it one day when we cover

[01:54:09] the like eight Universal Soldier movies.

[01:54:11] Number eight, Inspector

[01:54:13] Gadget. Oh my God.

[01:54:15] Correct. Which I've always said

[01:54:17] they should have rebooted with Griffin Newman.

[01:54:19] Griff you would be so

[01:54:21] imagine that guy going

[01:54:23] Gadget.

[01:54:25] I could go go Gadget with the best of them.

[01:54:27] I don't know the status of

[01:54:29] it, but I believe several years ago it was announced

[01:54:31] your co-workers, Mikey Day and Streeter

[01:54:33] Seidel were doing

[01:54:35] it. Yes, it was announced. Yes.

[01:54:37] They were writing it. I don't know what the status.

[01:54:39] I'm not angling to get in there. I'm just curious.

[01:54:41] No. And I know you aren't angling,

[01:54:43] but I will vouch for you.

[01:54:45] Look, I'm a Gadget fan.

[01:54:47] I'd love to see Gadget back on the big screen where he belongs.

[01:54:49] Doesn't have to be me.

[01:54:51] You, Mikey and Streeter, that's a good

[01:54:53] trio of boys.

[01:54:55] David's been pushing this for

[01:54:57] almost a decade. I just was kind of like if I'm like your

[01:54:59] manager and I've got like a slinky in my

[01:55:01] hands and I'm like,

[01:55:03] what would Griffin, like what project

[01:55:05] do we need for him? Because if it was Gadget

[01:55:07] Boy who existed later, who was

[01:55:09] like the Muppet Baby version, I was like you want me to play Gadget

[01:55:11] Boy? And he's like no, I think you can grow into

[01:55:13] the inspector. Mr. Inspector.

[01:55:15] Mr. Inspector. Do all managers have slinkies

[01:55:17] to you, David? I think it's that

[01:55:19] Simpsons gag where Brian

[01:55:21] Glazer has the slinky. I think that's what I'm

[01:55:23] thinking of, right? Yeah.

[01:55:25] I've talked about this before, I think

[01:55:27] because when it comes up in the

[01:55:29] box office game.

[01:55:31] The Inspector Gadget trailer

[01:55:33] is like 60%

[01:55:35] footage that's not in the movie.

[01:55:37] And that is a movie that is like 62

[01:55:39] minutes long with like extended

[01:55:41] credit outtakes.

[01:55:43] It's 78

[01:55:45] minutes long. That is so funny.

[01:55:47] It's like a Disney movie that was in theaters.

[01:55:49] It makes

[01:55:51] Perfect Blue look like Satan's Hand.

[01:55:53] And you watch this trailer

[01:55:55] and you're like, did they cut 40?

[01:55:57] Did they do it once upon a time in America

[01:55:59] on this movie? I don't think there's a

[01:56:01] secret miracle cut of that film.

[01:56:03] But you're like there are entire plot lines

[01:56:05] that clearly have just been lifted.

[01:56:07] And then I recently

[01:56:09] joined the

[01:56:11] Inspector Gadget subreddit.

[01:56:13] I was like let's spend less time

[01:56:15] looking at the podcast subreddit. Let's find

[01:56:17] healthier subreddits. So healthy.

[01:56:19] Every fucking day some guy posts

[01:56:21] more uncovered Inspector Gadget

[01:56:23] concept art. They got

[01:56:25] like all the people who worked on

[01:56:27] Blade Runner. Just dumping it.

[01:56:29] And you're like this is the best

[01:56:31] looking shit I've ever seen. And they cut

[01:56:33] all of it. They cut all of it. And I'm like

[01:56:35] what happened in the development

[01:56:37] of the Inspector Gadget movie?

[01:56:39] I don't know.

[01:56:41] Very interesting. Now we'll check it out.

[01:56:43] 20 part investigative series.

[01:56:45] Mikey and Streeter announced in

[01:56:47] 2019 so like I feel like

[01:56:49] well whatever. Like TikTok guys.

[01:56:51] There's a draft somewhere and I

[01:56:53] will. I'm just curious. You'll surface

[01:56:55] it. I will surface it.

[01:56:57] Number nine of the box office is Deep Blue

[01:56:59] Sea. Ben.

[01:57:01] My hat is like a shark's fin. Right.

[01:57:03] That was LL Cool J's song from the film.

[01:57:05] Does that spark anything for you?

[01:57:07] No. LL Cool J

[01:57:09] is the

[01:57:11] song at the end of the movie.

[01:57:13] My hat is like a shark's fin. Correct.

[01:57:15] And the hat's a kangle?

[01:57:17] We don't actually know.

[01:57:19] I don't know if he's even wearing a hat.

[01:57:21] I'm wearing this kind of hat by the way and that's why

[01:57:23] it's like a shark's fin. LL Cool J had

[01:57:25] some hat versatility. I feel like

[01:57:27] he had a bucket hat era. He had a kangle

[01:57:29] era. Yeah.

[01:57:31] Or without. But none of them are particularly

[01:57:33] shark's fin-esque.

[01:57:35] I don't know why. It's just anytime

[01:57:37] LL Cool J comes up I think

[01:57:39] of that lyric in particular because it doesn't

[01:57:41] really make sense. No.

[01:57:43] Number 10 at the box

[01:57:45] office is opening

[01:57:47] this weekend, bombing hard.

[01:57:49] Katie Holmes, Helen Mirren,

[01:57:51] Two-Hander, teaching Mrs. Tingle.

[01:57:53] Teaching Mrs. Tingle. Sort of forgotten.

[01:57:55] Is it a camp

[01:57:57] classic that was a post-Columbine movie

[01:57:59] that they had to edit? I remember that.

[01:58:01] Any movie with violence against teachers

[01:58:03] there was a lot of controversy about. It was going to be called

[01:58:05] killing Mrs. Tingle. Right.

[01:58:07] And they retitled it and then I think she

[01:58:09] now doesn't die at the end of the movie when it

[01:58:11] was released. Yes. She just gets fired apparently.

[01:58:13] Right. Pouring. Pouring. And they

[01:58:15] neutered a lot of the violence.

[01:58:17] Barry Watson. That's a good question.

[01:58:19] Jeffrey Tambor. Is that a movie that has been

[01:58:21] reclaimed? I don't know.

[01:58:23] I don't know if anyone is checking in with it. Because I started to see some like

[01:58:25] internet discourse of people saying

[01:58:27] like we can't reclaim every

[01:58:29] movie. No. Every single

[01:58:31] film is getting the case for

[01:58:33] why it was slept on. No, no, no. Let some

[01:58:35] movies be bad. Teaching Mrs. Tingle

[01:58:37] might be a movie that everyone is letting

[01:58:39] just be bad. Yes.

[01:58:41] And that's beautiful. Some movies should just be bad

[01:58:43] for sure. That's the box office game.

[01:58:45] That's our podcast I think. Right. We're done.

[01:58:47] Yeah. Let's get going out of here.

[01:58:49] Thank you so much for having me back. What a

[01:58:51] true honor. Thank you. Everyone should listen

[01:58:53] to us. But who isn't

[01:58:55] already listening? That's right.

[01:58:57] I will shout out the sub.

[01:58:59] Please, you two please do not

[01:59:01] check it. Okay. But every now and

[01:59:03] then I'll go on there just to see

[01:59:05] what everyone is saying. It's a good group

[01:59:07] of people. You're saying ours though? Yours.

[01:59:09] Mine. Mine. It's a bunch of sweet

[01:59:11] people. Yeah. Sometimes they will

[01:59:13] be a little

[01:59:15] out of pocket. But

[01:59:17] that's the sub.

[01:59:19] On the grand scale of things

[01:59:21] our sub is a lot healthier than most

[01:59:23] corners of the internet. And that speaks to

[01:59:25] you too. We have tried

[01:59:27] to curate a

[01:59:29] to set a tone. Yes. And I think

[01:59:31] you've done that successfully. I love you two very

[01:59:33] much. You're very kind. Love you too Bowen.

[01:59:35] Thank you so much. Yeah. Is there anything else?

[01:59:37] No. No. Not really. Shout out? No.

[01:59:39] No shout outs. Okay. Great. Have

[01:59:41] Matt Rodgers back on. We will. We will.

[01:59:43] Both of you over do. There was an

[01:59:45] episode we tried to have both of you on a couple years ago

[01:59:47] where it did line up. I think maybe

[01:59:49] we were going to have you do Portrait of a Lady.

[01:59:51] Weirdly.

[01:59:53] Yes. There was some

[01:59:55] something like that. Oh my God.

[01:59:57] And then this came up and now we have to find

[01:59:59] a solo episode for that. We'll have them on.

[02:00:01] We'll do any kind of movie

[02:00:03] but we would love like a lesbian period

[02:00:05] drama for sure. Okay. All right.

[02:00:07] We'll rustle something like that up.

[02:00:09] Yeah. Maybe a Patreon series.

[02:00:11] I do love lesbian period dramas.

[02:00:13] Could we like? Period. Period.

[02:00:15] That's what they said about it. Period.

[02:00:17] Could we do a Patreon

[02:00:19] series on

[02:00:21] lesbian period dramas where people

[02:00:23] didn't get Oscar nominations?

[02:00:25] Yes of course we have to do that. That sounds

[02:00:27] great. Just pull together a list for me.

[02:00:29] Cool. Cool. Bye.

[02:00:31] Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate,

[02:00:33] review, and subscribe. Thank you to

[02:00:35] Marie Bardi for helping to produce the show.

[02:00:37] Jo Bo and Pat Rounds for

[02:00:39] our artwork. Lane Montgomery and the Great American

[02:00:41] Novel for our theme song.

[02:00:43] JJ Birch for our

[02:00:45] research.

[02:00:47] AJ McKeon, Alex Barron for editing.

[02:00:49] AJ McKeon is also the production coordinator. You can go

[02:00:51] to blankcheckpod.com

[02:00:53] for links to some real nerdy shit including

[02:00:55] our Patreon blank check special

[02:00:57] features where we are not yet doing

[02:00:59] lesbian period dramas.

[02:01:01] But we are doing the Ninja Turtles

[02:01:03] movies which are very similar.

[02:01:05] And we'll be doing

[02:01:07] Paranoia Agent as we said coming up

[02:01:09] on that feed.

[02:01:11] Tune in next week for Millennium Actress

[02:01:13] and as always

[02:01:15] I will never murder

[02:01:17] someone I love.

[02:01:19] Good for you.

[02:01:21] Keeping it all in though.

[02:01:23] I guess so.