Ride with the Devil with Peter Labuza

[00:00:01] Blank Check with Griffin and David, Blank Check with Griffin and David Don't know what to say or to expect All you need to know is that the name of the show is Blank Check You're supposed to sleep with your wife, Rodell.

[00:00:22] Great day in the morning, you gotta know that much. You're supposed to share her bed. That way if some other man do that, you podcast him. Sure. Kill? Shoot? Shoot. Hi everybody, I'm sick. I'm... I don't know, I got a little chest thing.

[00:00:39] God, you won't stop fucking bragging about how well you're doing. I'm doing okay. No, you're fucking killing it. On this podcast if you're a level, you're ahead. I'm level. You're level. I don't know, there's something up with my... Get out of it. Don't... oh, stop it.

[00:00:55] Stop... stop feeble signaling. Yeah. Is that the term? Feeble signaling? Feeble signaling? Yeah. You're signaling how feeble you are? Yeah, it's the term. Well done. I'm Griffin now, man. David Sims. It's a blank check with Griffin and David.

[00:01:08] It's a podcast about filmography, it's directors who have massive success early on in their career. Give a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion products they want. And sometimes the checks clear and sometimes they bounce, baby! You are sick. Yeah, I am. Jesus.

[00:01:20] That's why I said it right up top. So good that this is the week we're doing four episodes then. This is the week you decided to be sick. Hey! Hey! Now my choice. All the lights just went on. Why did they keep doing that, man?

[00:01:30] All the lights just went on. Yeah, I don't know. We tried to move right our studio and now we got all the lights. Um... This is a main series on the films of Ang Lee. It's called Brookpod Mountcast. Yes it is. And today we're talking about...

[00:01:44] Every time it gets the guests because they don't know. They don't know. It's good. And this time you hear that at the distance. You got... it's a real thinker. Sorry. Do you hear that? Do you hear that? Open your ears, David. Uh, no.

[00:01:56] Bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling! I don't know what you're doing. This is a bounce. Oh sure, yeah this one bounced. This is a bounce. Um, I was saying before we recorded by certain metrics, the most unsuccessful movie we've ever covered on this podcast. Yeah.

[00:02:14] Yeah, not... it didn't lose the most money you were saying. And we've covered films that have grossed money? And it didn't make the most money but had less of a release. But still in terms of utter failure, it's up there.

[00:02:23] Right, this movie just like no one... it got no recognition. They're never gonna make their money back on this one. What? But they do have a criterion now. They do have a sexy criterion which is, you know... And a director's cut and all that fancy jazz.

[00:02:35] Yeah, dual format, you know what I'm saying? Maybe a... yeah. How much do you think you make on a criterion? I think it depends. Gosh. I mean, they... what's your... give me an estimate. I don't know, you know, I did a little work for Masters of Cinema. Okay.

[00:02:51] What kind of numbers they pull down? You know, the thing is I never saw the numbers. I just did the booklets. I got a flat fee for the booklets and that was it.

[00:02:59] I assume... I knew there where they had a five to seven year rights in order to. So when you bought the rights, say if you bought it, say this year, you had seven years to actually produce a disc before you lost the rights.

[00:03:11] That's the one thing I knew about what criterion's model was. Because criterion very rarely has rights lapse. I wonder if they're just renewing constantly? Probably and now with filmstruck, that's... And when they were doing the Hulu, I think they just started really just...

[00:03:25] They would put this stuff like... That's why like the Elaine May, Mikey and Nikki ended up there. Yes. Is because they just would... They had the rights to the streaming as well. So they could just put it on that with the unrestored edition that they had

[00:03:37] with the intention that one day maybe we'll... It's like a placeholder. Yeah. Do this. Because this movie, I would say conservatively lost $50 million. Something around there. So you're gonna need to sell a lot of criterion's to make that back.

[00:03:50] And I think criterion said the ones that have sold the best for them are the ones that were produced by mainstream studios where... They had the couple of examples like Royal Tannin' Bombs, Benjamin Button, maybe one other I'm forgetting,

[00:04:04] where the criterion was the only mass release version of the film sold in Walmart. Back in the early 2000s. When DVD was still booming. Love a DVD. But this film came out at the cusp of the dawn of the DVD revolution.

[00:04:21] We were just sort of ascending the DVD tower. 1999. Yeah. The great year for American cinema, right? For all cinema, right? I don't know. Everyone always talks about 1999. Right. And a Taiwanese director. No. Yes. You're coming in haunt.

[00:04:38] I'm trying to think of what's going on in the rest of world cinema. I guess you've got... Oh, you got like Rosetta, right? Yeah. You got like some fun... When Will Carries by Abbas Kirostami. Exactly. Is all of my mother, 99? Yes. Yes. It is. Ratcatcher comes out in 1999.

[00:04:55] Mononoke comes out in America. Right. And the single finest American film of all time comes out in 1999. We'll get to that later. Yeah, Toy Story 2. We'll get to that later. I sweat shot. The Matrix. We had the Clinton presidency. Whatever that's worth. Clinton, right. That's boiling along.

[00:05:12] Which is the second best American film of all time. Player Witch. Right. Yeah. But... But... A magnolia. A Taiwanese filmmaker on the rise. A man who was just going up. Ben's point of fight point. And up and up decides he's gonna make his American Civil War epic. Sure.

[00:05:29] They've all got to do it. And no one shows up. A tumbleweed. Sure. Blows through 60 theaters at its maximum. Yeah, yeah. Pretty much. But our guest today has gone on the record saying this is his favorite anglery film. Is that correct?

[00:05:46] Yeah, I think I would hold to that. Crouching Tiger's close but I'd say those two are clearly the best. Wow, this is gonna be a good episode. This is what I like. Guns of Blazin', talkin' before he's introduced, making big proclamations. Hair swinging in the wind.

[00:06:04] As a Midwestern... Where are you from? I'm from Minnesota. Oh, Minnesota. Oh, yeah, you betcha. Great movie. But it would be Missouri. I'm sure actually people from there are hearing me say it and saying, well, you're not exactly saying it right.

[00:06:20] It's like kind of like that whole can con debate sort of thing. But it's Missouri. Well, let me try to pronounce the title of this film correctly. It's Ride With The Devil? Is that right? Yeah, sure. Ra with the devil. Okay. It's called Ride With The Devil.

[00:06:38] There you go. It's a 1999 new, nine civil war epic. Tobin McGuire's Skeet-Alrick joint. Skeet-Alrick first build in this movie. We gotta talk about that. That was a moment in history. That's weird. Because he's not on the poster. He's not first build on the poster.

[00:06:54] No, but in the credits, he is pointedly first build. And you know, he's a you. You know, there's no alphabet behind behind with him. No sir, no siri. He's one of the rare you stars. I guess this is the scream bump.

[00:07:07] I mean, he'd been in scream that's three years earlier. Right. He had established. He had established that in terms of. You see in chill factor? In terms of greasy, poor men's Johnny Depp. He was as good as it gets. Sure.

[00:07:21] I always forget to do as good as it gets his after screen. Right. I think of as good as it gets is like, oh, he's very young. You know, because he's such a small role. No, that's after screen. The screen was like his first big movie role.

[00:07:32] What about Albino alligator? It was the second big movie role. Apparently he was in something called boys. Okay, I'm going to stand by a rider. Never heard of that boy. I've heard of them. He's in the craft. Right. Obviously.

[00:07:47] He was one of those guys where everyone was like, this is a movie star. Right. I guess he's pretty because he checked all the boxes except being compelling. He was third building the Newton boys though. Okay. And then then chill factor which in which he was. Okay.

[00:08:04] He was second build. I was about to say if he was built over Cuba, that'd be rude. Is this his only first build movie? So he's in two movies with Cuba Gooding Jr. In two years practically. Those two must be best pals. They're trying to make fetch happen.

[00:08:15] And then after this, this is the last movie he was in that anyone has ever heard of. Then he kind of disappears. And he was in armored. Does that count? No. Our guest today is Peter Labusa. He's a he gets the with billing in armored. Peter Labusa does.

[00:08:29] Yes, he does. Right. One of my favorite films to work with Nimrod Antal. Well done. Great to collaborate with. Good call. The director of Predators. And Matt Dillon was the billing on that movie. Yeah, right. He have this in a few acts podcast.

[00:08:45] Thank you so much for being here Peter. I am absolutely delighted to be here. Thank you guys for allowing me to join on the devil ride. Exactly. Yeah. Of course an out town guest. So we flew you first class. Of course. Great champagne on there.

[00:08:59] We got the guys, the Vinnie and Franks. Okay. Vinnie and Franks are actually doing airplane food now. They're popular LA joints. Sorry. I'm just I'm speaking LA speak right now. I love airplane food. I gotta say sometimes I think that's some of the best food there is.

[00:09:14] Are you doing a bit? No. Okay. It's very griffin food actually when you think about it. Yeah. My problem actually is if it bits aside, I think airplane food is putting on errors a little too much these days. Oh sure. You'd rather it was just chicken nuggets. Yeah.

[00:09:31] Not like cacao van. Right. Like microwave chicken. Exactly. Right. That's my problem. One is like squash spaghetti. We're actually doing airplane food talk right now. You know it's not spaghetti. It's squash cut into spaghetti. Sure.

[00:09:45] Does anyone know why they have that spot for the razor blade on the planes? They actually don't have those anymore. They used to though. Yeah. I don't. The spot for the airplane. Can you imagine trying to shave on a plane actually? Why? You're going to hit some turbulence.

[00:09:58] There's going to be a lot of blood everywhere. That's a good point. And I'm sure that happened to someone. I'm sorry, I'm drinking my coffee. This movie has got a lot of blood too. This has got a lot of blood. This has got a lot of blood.

[00:10:07] Hey, you know what I found out that I didn't know? Go ahead. You know what I found out that I didn't know? What a fucking repetitive sense. What did you find out? Do you know that Engley served in the military? Yeah.

[00:10:18] I think I mentioned that on our first episode. Really? Conscripted, right? Yeah. His national service essentially, right? Yeah. For the Republic of China. Right. Taiwan. Because I did a little more research into this. I think it was in the Navy. Background. Yes.

[00:10:33] I just knew he did military service. So he was in the Navy. Okay. He didn't think about going into the arts because it was not something that anyone around him kind of encouraged. Right.

[00:10:47] He tested so poorly that like the local art school was one of those sort of holding schools where you could do a year until you test it again to get into a proper university. Then he falls in love with acting. Right.

[00:10:59] Realizes he doesn't speak well enough, too shy. Sure. Then he falls in love with filmmaking. And his wife Jane. Yes. Yeah. They met in college. Right. Goes to NYU graduates. Then I think does his service.

[00:11:14] Well, he does the Spike Lee movie at one point where he's an assistant on it. That's when they're both... Yeah, he's an assistant on Joe's Bedside Barbershop. Right. No, he did his Navy before he went to America. Okay. So it was in between drama school and NYU?

[00:11:27] I guess so. I think that's one of those. And then he lives in an apartment in White Plains with his wife and his children. Right. And she's the breadwinner. Right. And he's making breakfast, lunch and dinner for the kids. Sure. And writing his scripts.

[00:11:46] And he's pals with Jimmy? Jimmy S? Yeah. Well, this is what I found out because we had asked how did they get hooked up in the first place? Sure, sure. Sheamus and Hope had set up Good Mission. Right. And they were the New York City, no budget guys.

[00:12:01] We're going to help you make your movie, support the directors when you got no budget. Engley had entered into this contest, won first and second place for Wedding Banquet and for Pushing Hands. Yeah.

[00:12:16] And went to them and said, I heard you guys are good at making something for no money and James Sheamus says it was the single most boring meeting he'd ever had in his entire life. Great.

[00:12:26] Engley proceeded to explain shot by shot what the movie was and he said it was thoroughly boring. Like about like the Wedding Banquet or Pushing Hands or something? I think both. Sure. Pushing Hands more so was the priority. Okay.

[00:12:38] And he said it was really boring but he knew exactly what the movie was which is more than most people have going for them. Right. And he had the money. Well, he had the money from China. Right. Right.

[00:12:49] So, he said it was the biggest budget we've got and why not take a chance on this guy? Right. And then after Pushing Hands he got a little more involved with the Wedding Banquet script. Yeah. And so there's good crux of a thing here.

[00:13:02] You should try to push it more into the screwball comedy thing and that's where their partnership really kind of blooms with this push and pull between the two of them. And now we're in this run of post-sense and sensibility. Sheamus bringing material to Engley.

[00:13:16] Hey, I read a book. You should check this out. But he's the one who falls in love with the book. Engley is the one who really wants to do this project which was surprising when I was doing my little bit of research I did for coming on here.

[00:13:27] I was like, this seemed... I thought this was going to be... Seems like a Sheamus. This was going to be a James Sheamus. James Sheamus loves 50 West... 50... Some verses. 1950s Westerns. Yes. Kind of like... Transgressive West. Right in his sort of wheelhouse.

[00:13:40] Kind of prestigious but not necessarily like totally Oscar bait. And yet this is like Engley's passion project that he wants to do. Because Engley's in is... It is a coming of age film with the Civil War as a backdrop. Right and it's about being an outsider.

[00:13:58] And it's people who don't have the time to figure out who they are in the world because all this fucking bloody chaos is happening around them. But they're also not in the film that I relate this closest to, I think in terms

[00:14:09] of narrative historical trajectories is taking Woodstock in a way. These are both about characters who are clearly in the like the midst of giant historical things happening but they're not in the epicenter. They're just off to the side. Right, right, right.

[00:14:25] And that's what I think is kind of most interesting as we'll get into this movie is like it's about a bunch of people who clearly realize they're in a huge moment of history and yet their actions and ideas have absolutely no consequence. It's the sidelines epic unquestionably.

[00:14:40] Then it also does this weird subversive thing with the Jeffrey Wright character who like becomes the lead sort of by the end. Definitely. But doesn't really have dialogue for the first like hour and 15 minutes. Sure. Is sort of just like a featured extra for the first hour.

[00:14:56] Well, he's an object of fascination though. Like why is he... Is this like one of his first big roles I'm trying to remember? Well, you know, he's a Tony winner. Right. Like he's a stage actor. He'd been in Angels in America in the original cast.

[00:15:09] So he had like won the Tony. So he's sort of like... And then it's best scout is his first big movie. And then there's the best Giot in 1996, which I mean that movie has such a like, you know, flashy ensemble around him. But he's good in it.

[00:15:20] I think he's great at film. And he won the Spirit Award, I want to say. I believe he won the Spirit Award for that film and he said this was the first time he'd ever been offered a role that he didn't have to audition for.

[00:15:33] Right by the devil? Yes, because Ang Lee had liked... He was just nominated for best debut performance. Weirdly, Vinicio Del Toro won best supporting actor. Which is very bizarre because that's a very small role.

[00:15:42] Yeah, well, that's back when the spirits were like, I don't know, let's not make Cole Hauser for Tigerland. They may not have even had an open bar at that time. Oh, Jesus Christ. That's like the most important thing about the Spirit Awards now.

[00:15:53] The 10 must have been so little. God, the Spirit Awards this year were so fucking depressing. I was so mad about the Spirit Awards this year, even though like Get Out was a fine feature winner. I think they need to put a harsher budget cap on the spirits.

[00:16:07] I think they need to really separate church and state by being like... But then they wouldn't get all their money. I know, that's the point. Right, it's over. You need a new thing, like the real spirited awards. I don't know.

[00:16:19] I think Vinicio was the Walter Brennan of the Spirit Awards where he won supporting actor like three times in the first 12 years. Great, great. I think he won for usual suspects as well. Thank you, good reference. I'm giving myself good reference points.

[00:16:33] But Baskat was the big thing because he'd sort of come out of theater to be like flashy ensemble. He's the unknown New York theater guy playing a famous artist. He won two years in a row.

[00:16:42] Usual suspects Baskat is two years in a row, then he wins a special distinction award for 21 grams that's like for the whole cast. The best thing is weird because he's like the fourth best supporting performance in that movie. Sure.

[00:16:56] I don't think that movie is great but it's got good performances in it. I remember seeing 21 grams. I mean I try and... He's amazing at 21 grams. That movie blows. Del Toro is pretty good because he's just sort of like trying to bring it

[00:17:10] back to some sort of place where humans exist. Is he in the Morris Paros as well? No, but I contended that he would have won the Oscar that year had he not won for traffic. Possibly. Because that was the Robbins year which was like...

[00:17:24] It's that weird year where it's like Tim Robbins won? Yeah. Tim Robbins for district. Del Toro is next level in 21 grams and 21 grams is a cup of diarrhea. It's a steaming cup of diarrhea. It's about how your soul weighs 21 grams. Jesus Christ. Have you seen...

[00:17:39] You have seen it. I saw it. I remember that like, you know they basically probably took what it was a finished script and it's like, well let's just edit it in whatever way we want. Right. Yeah, pretty much. But no. Okay.

[00:17:51] Back on track, Daniel Woodrell who I have read his story, his... My God. His movie, his book. What? Tomato Red. Don't worry. It only took you five times. I love reading movies. Jesus Christ. Okay. Oh, same writer as Winner's Bomb? Yeah. Interesting. Also, you know, Midwest Southern twang.

[00:18:11] Exactly. Absolutely. Yeah. Mizzara. He likes the Ozarks. He likes to write about the Ozarks. He got to take a ride before you get boned. David, you must take a ride before you get boned. The book is called Woe to Live On which is a real great...

[00:18:26] It's a blockbuster title if I ever heard one. But no, I was dating someone who was a real Woodrell fan. So I read a couple of Woodrells back in the day. And then Winner's Bone is a great movie and this is a great movie.

[00:18:37] So 100% success rate if you've redamped his movies. The books. I think it's a short book, is it not? Yeah. They're all short. Right. And this is a long movie. It's a long ass movie.

[00:18:51] I think this was sort of one of those starting point adaptations where they kind of blossom their own thing out of the book. Am I wrong about that? That's the sense I got. I mean, they wed the Lawrence Massacre.

[00:19:04] The Lawrence Massacre is not as crucial to the book. The sort of epic set pieces of the film are sure. But he's kind of on this nonstop run where... What? I mean, each drink man woman is coming out and landing big in the States while he's

[00:19:24] already on Sense and Sensibility. When Sense and Sensibility is on its Oscar run, he's already filming the ice storm. The ice storm doesn't perform well commercially but is well respected. Yeah, but he's not really on a run anymore I'd say.

[00:19:37] This is a little more of like, okay, what do you got? This is big cash. Yeah. It's a lot of money put into this movie. He's putting a lot of somewhat unknown actors in the lead roles. Toby's Rising, Jewel had not been in a film before.

[00:19:51] Jeffrey Wright was an actor. She'd been in a car before. She'd been in a car. She'd been in a van. She'd been in a van down by the river. Yeah, because Toby had been in Pleasantville in between Ice Storm and this.

[00:20:04] But that doesn't suggest like, you know, put this guy as the lead in a... I mean, because all those performances are... In this type of movie? No, no. In this type of movie, no. But he certainly...

[00:20:14] He seemed to be approved as a leading man underneath a certain budget level. This is all put him in an epic is weird. Well, this is also the same year as Cider House Rules though which is sort of an epic. Which that movie rolls.

[00:20:23] Kind of a quasi epic. Cider House Rules. It always blows. Yeah, it always sucks. I don't know if you like Cider House Rules. I've never seen it. Yeah, you know. He learned the rules of the Cider House sub-portions.

[00:20:35] I was in a summer camp production at Cider House Rules once. Really? I was really angry I didn't get the good part. There's the one kid who dies, right? Yeah. That was the part to get. I guess so.

[00:20:45] Because then you got to go back to your bunk early. Stage production of the Cider House Rules? Yeah, I think it was a play before they adapted it into film. It's a book! They adapted from the book into a play and then adapted the book into a film.

[00:20:59] Maybe. And I wanted to play Curly I think as the kid who dies and I got stuck playing like Rory Culkin role maybe? No. I mean it's Keir and Culkin. Oh, maybe I- Buster. I think that was the good role though. He's the one who dies I think.

[00:21:14] I played someone shitty. I don't know. Erica Badou was in that movie. It was her debut. Oh, that's the role I played. Yeah right. Can you confirm or deny a rumor I heard about Jewel? You're right. It was adapted as a stage play. Thank you. Yeah it was.

[00:21:29] What's the role? I'm a Bux Rock creative and performing arts camp. Fun fact about Jewel, I don't know if you guys know this. I did a little research. She lived in a car. Wow. And I don't know if you know this.

[00:21:41] What I heard at least is that her hands are small but they're her own. You got anything else? I keep thinking it's Cheryl Crow. It's not Cheryl Crow. Same vibe at the same time.

[00:21:52] I was watching him like, you know, I just keep him when I see her on screen I'm like, I wanna soak up the sun. That's like mostly what I kept thinking. But that's even second wave Cheryl Crow.

[00:22:02] Yeah because Cheryl Crow was a little rougher around the edges before that. That was like right. I've done a bad bad thing. Right? Wasn't that, did one of her songs start that way? I don't know. I don't know. Maybe I was just thinking about it.

[00:22:13] Was it like a virgin? Was that her? Was that Jewel? No. Sorry I'm a millennial. Wow. Wow, later. I'm coming out here on the show. As a millennial? As a jewel hating millennial. As a jewel hating millennial. Jewel was like, I mean she was a big thing.

[00:22:30] I feel like we were all talking about Jewel. She's a big thing right now. At this moment. At this moment and like not much before and not much after. No. She was a bit of a flash in the picture.

[00:22:38] She had two albums that were big and then she sort of fluttered away. There was like a 2003 attempt to be like, now I'm gonna be poppier. Do you remember that? She like went on TRL and wore mid drifts. Yeah, sure. Of course. Right.

[00:22:51] She was trying to play it but her first album, Pieces of You, sold 7.3 million copies in the US. That's a lot. And then Hands is on the second album. Spirit which was her second album that has Hands. That sold 3.7. So you know yeah.

[00:23:06] And then her next one was called This Way. This is the Poppy album. That sold 1.5. So there's a, alright. Okay. That's like a hyperbole. You get like half and half each time. But this is that thing of like, oh you've had like a big album or two.

[00:23:19] And she did a dance album called 0304. Well that's the one I was really thinking of. She really fell off. Yes. And then I think she tried to go back to country music. And I think now she's just in like... Now she's hardcore like country. Yeah.

[00:23:31] She's just in the country zone and she does the USO shows. She does Hallmark movies. She played June Carter Cash. Did she? In Walk the Line? They did a Lifetime Walk the Line with hers, June Carter Cash. Yes. It's called Ring of Fire.

[00:23:46] Matt Ross, director of Captain Fantastic. Yeah. He's a great actor, Matt Ross. Yeah he is. Yeah. He looks more like Johnny Cash. Gavin Belson. Yeah. I'll never get over fucking walking Phoenix laughing in Walk the Line. Is that scene where he's got the peanuts? And he keeps...

[00:24:03] She's like, give me a peanut and he's like, okay. And then he puts it in his mouth every time is a bit. And every time she's like, oh Johnny! And he's like, oh! It's very weird. I think about that all the time. That's why this movie is...

[00:24:15] I'm surprised anyone remembers anything from Walk the Line. Walk the Line baby! When Dewey Cox came out, I feel like it just erased all those things. Dewey Cox is a brutal slam to Walk the Line. There's no question.

[00:24:25] Because then you blend a lot of the real scenes from Walk the Line into Walk Hard. Yeah. For sure. Ingle said he cast Jewel because it feels like this is like a studio thing where she's good in this movie. I think she's good. Yeah, she's terrific.

[00:24:38] And I think it was weirdly, I think it hurt the film because people were like, I'm trying to cash in on the flavor of the weak. Yeah, and also she's billed as Jewel. You could call her Jewel Kiltcher or whatever.

[00:24:48] You know, it makes it seem a little cheesy. And then I think the fact that the film flopped so hard kind of killed her film career in the bud. He said he cast her solely because of her teeth. Because he thought they looked error appropriate. Which feels rude.

[00:25:00] That seems like a classic Ang Lee burn. Like him telling Emma Thompson she looked too old. That's the thing, the more we've been studying Ang Lee, the more it comes out that he says all these things where it's like... His best directions are like, no, you are tired.

[00:25:14] Yeah, right. And his worst directions are like stop being so fat. Yeah, right. Uh-huh. But he cast her because of her teeth. Great. Cast Toby who he clearly has taken a liking to. Sure. And is such a weird leading man. He's fascinating actor.

[00:25:32] He's such a weird little puppy dog guy. I mean, it's... You watch him in this film. Because he's... I mean, one is he's playing the... He's the dumbest person on screen. He is a dumb motherfucker.

[00:25:44] This is a film all about dumb people trying to one up each other in terms of their stupidity levels. But yeah, this film does not beat around the bush re his dumbness. No. Yeah. But go on.

[00:25:57] So does that make him appropriate for the film that like we seriously consider this guy is really, really unintelligent and like so he plays it well. It just doesn't make necessarily for your classical leading man. Right. Anyway, even in like a coming of age sort of mode.

[00:26:13] He's not a guy because he is so... For someone who did become a studio leading man and even before Spider-Man was like top line in pictures. He's got such a high pitch voice. Yeah. He's so doughy eyed. He's so vulnerable. Doughy face. Doughy face, right? Yeah.

[00:26:35] He's a wounded little animal. He's very capable of playing intelligence at times. But this movie it's like some combination of like the fact that he seems a little out of his depth as an actor works for the character because the guy wants to be like the hero

[00:26:50] of the war and isn't really suited for. I mean they set him up really well with his father where the dad just sort of like you don't have to do all of this. And he's like no I do. I'm going to prove that I'm bankable in studio pictures.

[00:27:04] The thing is these types of performances are kind of like my favorite though where it's like an actor who's maybe just out of his league but the director knows how to use him well. I just because I saw... The Barry Lyndon.

[00:27:15] No, and I saw this last week I saw Sean Penn in Carlitos way. And that's like a performance like every bad thing about Sean Penn suddenly becomes great in that movie. I mean I do love performances like that. Sean Penn's hysterical.

[00:27:28] And I think you can compare him to... He's also doing so much business. You compare Todd McGuire in this to Skeet Ulrich in this who's just kind of like going through the motions. Sure. Skeet Ulrich is... He's a face in this movie I would say. Right.

[00:27:43] And like Toby's so out of sorts that he is constantly engaging. You know? Like he works as a good dummy lead. But like the real hero of this movie is Jeffrey Wright laying him waiting. Like it's what you love about Zocario.

[00:28:01] It's like he's just sort of like off to the side. I don't know that's what I love about Zocario because I don't think I love anything about Zocario. No, the thing you love about Zocario is that Benicio Bontoro... That's my impression of George Clooney. Sleeps... Zocario! Not Zocario!

[00:28:16] Not Zocario! I literally... Well because Jeffrey writes in Zocario that's what I thought you were talking about. No, no, no. I mean he's in Zocario. He's not in Zocario. Yes. I'm not doing well clearly. Clearly. I keep calling books movies. All right. Yeah.

[00:28:30] I'm waiting for him to like wake up for the last third of the movie essentially. Like Benicio and Zocario. Right, like Jeffrey Wright is just in the background for so much of the film and obviously we're

[00:28:37] watching it now with like an added 20 years of Jeffrey Wright work so we know he's not going to do nothing in this movie. Sure. But he's above the title. Yeah. They clearly introduce him with some like importance and then it takes him so long

[00:28:50] to actually kind of like bloom. But it is that's the thing. It's like this is a movie about the Civil War from the side of the people who were wrong. Yes. Working with... But not soldiers too. They're very particular. Yeah, they're bushwhackers. Yeah, the bushwhackers and...

[00:29:07] A bunch of Daniel Stearns. The Missouri regulars. Yeah. But that's like the weird thing. They're like fighting for a cause but they have no... Like I don't mean there's no references to like General Lee or what's going on in Gettysburg or any of that stuff.

[00:29:21] That's all just like... No, the gorilla play. Two-size. Yeah, they're just gorilla for Missouri. It doesn't even seem like... I mean, that's the thing. Like do we see that many quote unquote slaves besides like Jeffrey Wright who's free? So they're just fighting for the sake of fighting mostly.

[00:29:37] It feels very territorial and very much just about sort of the ego. I mean there's... Yes, but then there's also the threat of like well if I joined the south, then I get shipped off to the front.

[00:29:49] You know, I get shipped off to the real battle which seems like a death sentence and horrible so I don't want to do that either. But there's also the air of conspiracy around like that's like you know anyone is

[00:29:59] kind of fair game to be killed including like your family members. I mean that's like the whole subplot with Mark Ruffalo that gets a few scenes in there. A babyface Mark Ruffalo, you know and it's like one of those weird like we'll

[00:30:12] get into the plot later but it's like you get the sense that you have to do this if you're a man from the ages of like 17 to 35. Absolutely. This is the only thing that matters right now. And Tom McGuire's character is called Dutchie by everyone.

[00:30:27] Right, because he's German. And he's got this chip on his shoulder that he feels like he constantly needs to prove that he's a real American. This is when being German was like I don't know buddy. Yeah, right, yeah. Not a good look.

[00:30:38] Not a good look but that's like his sort of defining sort of quality isn't it? That and his nub. His little nub. His little nub. He's really looking protective of that nub. He got a little nub. Yeah, those are.

[00:30:51] He gets his nub back by the end of the movie. Yes he does. I was hoping he got his nub back. I was gonna say how Dutchie got his nub. There you go. Boy. This movie? Uh-huh.

[00:31:01] Oh yeah, I thought but you were just gonna say that weird joke. I was gonna say that joke. Great. The Zagranier scene is where I think the thing kind of crystallizes. Okay. Where he admits he's like we're gonna lose this. Right.

[00:31:17] We're gonna lose this because we're not really fighting for anything. Yeah, no they never really state the cause exactly. There's an early scene at the wedding that the film opens where you've got like three random characters that we never see in a recipe. Right there's the little tip.

[00:31:33] Lay down. Yeah they lay down the exposition. They are there to be like this is what's going on. This is what the movie's about in terms of the great causes but. But Zagranier kind of says like they know what they're fighting for and we just know

[00:31:48] what we're fighting against and that's why they're gonna win. Right. And they got the schools. Right. Yeah. And Toby doesn't like. Kansas education. Yeah. Like Toby and Skeeter are like no you're wrong we'll win, we'll win.

[00:32:00] And then once he explains that they're like I can't really argue with that. And it's clear that they're not that personally invested you know. Yeah again there's not a lot of ideology at work here. It's a turf war right. And they're an odd group of people. Yes.

[00:32:12] Especially like Toby and Skeet and Simon Baker and Jeffrey Wright. Right. Like that's an odd match for a gorilla client like basically an aristocrat and his like childhood slave now friend. Yeah but also let's just point out the fact that over half this movie is not them

[00:32:31] quote unquote even fighting. No. It's them like waiting around during winter or injuries. Right. And doing absolutely nothing because this is an actual. Yeah. An actual Civil War movie. Right. It's like it's all the quote unquote it's kind of you know the film that reminded me was

[00:32:46] a little bit like Jarhead the Jake Jones Desert Star movie right. Because it's all about like what you do when you're actually not fighting like the only big battle of course is the Lawrence Kansas Massacre which is not. Which is horrible. Right.

[00:33:00] They think it's gonna be a battle though they're pumped up for a battle right and then they're like are we just shooting men in this town like who are defenseless. Can I throw out a hot take. Yeah. Civil war is really fucking dumb. It's pretty dumb.

[00:33:12] It was like the dumbest fucking war I hate it so much. Sure. You heard about states right so. Yeah right wait a second. I just I is well established on this podcast I don't like war movies I have a hard time

[00:33:25] engaging whenever I get to Civil War shit I'm just fucking cut it out. Hey guys. Cut it out guys. Well I was trying to think about like why was this movie made and given like

[00:33:34] 40 million like why are like James and and gonna go to like Universal and you know really pitch this and it's like well and we're tying off Mike like you have Gettysburg in 93 and that's a pretty big hit but you don't really have that many I

[00:33:49] guess like maybe they would have been in production by the time like saving Private Ryan and thin red line like do World War two and really well. There's kind of a war boom that happens right after this. Yeah but so I guess concurrent. Yeah.

[00:34:01] So yeah I'm trying to kind of like what's what is like the you know it's kind of you want to be in that pitch room like what's the pitch that's like a prestige maybe Oscar Bady Civil War movie about Southerners about like people on the other side.

[00:34:14] I feel like I feel like there are a couple factors at play one is that David you and I have talked about this a bunch that with like the sort of canonical directors there's the notion that you kind of have to check certain things

[00:34:25] off the list sure and it's like okay Ang Lee is like developed into someone major he's got to make a war movie at some point right. I guess so yeah or at the very least make historical epic and this is

[00:34:35] maybe like crossing both off at one time and there also is that kind of thing of like it's it's kind of like a workhorse genre and it like allows you to get like a bunch of young up-and-coming actors and put them all in the mud together.

[00:34:49] Yeah yeah like this movie is like a breeding ground for like a bunch of guys who they thought maybe would turn into leading man in the 90s. Yes. It's a Covizel Simon Baker Jonathan Reese Meyers. Oh yeah. Skeet Ulrich. Yeah.

[00:35:02] You know and then it's like Ruffalo like pops like these little guys at the sidelines who turn into more. But I'm looking at like Civil War movies in the 1990s and there are movies like dances with wolves but those don't count you know that

[00:35:14] are like set sort of in the vicinity but they're not actually about the common guess great movie but that's not a civil war movie really humongous no no but I'm say there's the two movies but it is

[00:35:24] humongous the two movies of the 90s the only two movies in the 90s that are actual Civil War movies are real 90s kids would remember exactly our glory and Gettysburg okay and glories huge glory was a big hit yeah and that's more of like your well

[00:35:38] yeah it's more your classic like gung-ho civil war movie about the good guys fighting the bad guys Gettysburg is that's a movie for dads right that's like the channel the movie I wonder if they pitched this more of as a Western than anything else

[00:35:53] because you've got sense of you've got this you know closer to Missouri so you've got this like more like atmospheric look then maybe the south is going to get you right. I mean it's a gorgeous movie.

[00:36:04] I'll say this yeah I never like I for a long time didn't know was a civil war movie and thought it was a Western like when I would go to my local video store that was organized by director I remember always getting quick in the dead and

[00:36:17] ride with the devil confused because I was like this is kind of same time period movie stars who were just kind of on the rise directors misfiring with cowboy hats. I'm just looking at this list though there's not a lot of

[00:36:32] civil war movies in general like in the 2000s there's just gods and generals which is Gettysburg to and cold mountain which is like kind of a fun civil war movie that's about that's like a weird there's like a lot of quatering like

[00:36:44] Lawrence Kansas massacre silent films made yeah hundreds and ten and ten the list is long and the tens and twenty yeah oh boy basically you could cast the real people right right yeah everyone was pulling a fifteen seventeen

[00:36:58] to Paris I guess it's also a genre that like gama the wind like looms so large and but even that doesn't have a lot of battle in it like even that's more of a home front movie but I also think that's like every fifteen years someone's

[00:37:11] like I can make a new one with the wind yeah you know like it's kind of a civil war I mean it's you know set during the Civil War there's a battle in it like briefly and there's a shot basically there's like three shots three

[00:37:25] shots of people in mud and the Han gets his face put on the ground right exactly I mean there's Gettysburg and like cold mountainer movies that like restaged civil war battle and glory those are movies that actually and the Lawrence

[00:37:37] massacre sort of counts so I guess this too Captain America so for Jesus Christ that's a problem you Google Civil War movie that's what comes up number one what a great civil war it was yeah they totally fought and we're definitely

[00:37:50] never going to be friends in like the next movie that was when I was writing for LA as I was my like one full time like critic gig for a while that was the first movie I'd review Civil War yeah and I had not seen a Marvel film

[00:38:03] in like five years oh wow like what's going on here this is this is a lot of things I got to turn in copy by tomorrow night yep well figure out how funny would it be if there was like a four VHS eight hour version of Captain America

[00:38:17] Civil War that they played in history classes now yeah and they were like so Aunt Man is kind of him he's sort of the misery of this situation you know sort of divided yeah Hawkeye's kind of underused I would say

[00:38:32] considering they have Jeremy right Hawkeye is just going to like get a shock into the face in the first scene of him the new one and that they'll be like that's why he's not in it like right that's why I got top billing right

[00:38:42] exactly that my hope is this is my hope my hope is that everyone dies in Infinity War and then Avengers 4 is just Hawkeye sure right he's like all right gotta do it myself got my bow got my rose rose rose to that was something he's got

[00:39:03] kids and he's got a lease for him it's him and Linda Carlini maybe three yeah you like the little cartel lady I hope Avengers 4 is National Lampoon Hawkeye and it's Hawkeye vacation right and it's Hawkeye Linda cartelini and two

[00:39:16] kids were recast from sure a vacation movie yeah yeah that's what I want you could be in it you can be one of the kids I can be one of Hawkeye's kids yeah right yeah slap some sort of Vaseline on your cousin that comes from like Russia

[00:39:30] or something I could be the scuzzy cousin the scousin this is scousin's and ride with the devil yeah this is because all they're all cousins right so what's the plot of ride with the devil well starts out it's it's sort of

[00:39:45] a hootenanny yes we're telling you any hands with the wedding parallelism very nice a box social yeah yeah as you said there's a lot of charge conversation where it's like well we support the north and you support the south and you're

[00:39:58] over there you kind of in the middle I'm not sure like you know what he is there rough doing some good and tilting and mumbling I don't know little romance little Toby is going to be married off to the not so petite woman yes

[00:40:11] like yeah that's very clear again married is for fucking it's for nerds and losers what should what does he want to do showing the pussy posse he's joined he's joined at this point he's been pressed into service yeah the toll has been

[00:40:26] taken yes this movie just a metaphor for that yes it's like he's got like a thousand yard stare after years with the pussy posse it's ostensibly about the civil war but it's actually about the New York nightclub scene of the

[00:40:37] late 90s right it's a cruising sequel yes yes Lucas Haas is the key or a character who goes down early so sick here you clearly can't wait to watch ready player one with you yeah okay so box social whoot nanny wedding

[00:40:57] everyone's dancing having fun Toby hates marriage he and his old buddy what what's good or X name in this film ski door X name and it's a great name is jack bull child Jesus Christ jack bull child yeah child's there's a child

[00:41:12] I always like there's a lot of like good like we're going to refer by someone to their full name in this when when they're angry that's both child yeah they are gonna become bush whacker his name is made for being referred to angrily

[00:41:27] they're gonna become bush well no well the good well there's the hit there for you know the father gets killed there's like an inciting yes yes sort of it's sort of like moody though and weird like it's not like some

[00:41:37] like easy so it's just we see this aftermath of like a we seem to shot we seem to shot right in the head well yeah we do but I just like don't we like open on a burning house like there's a lot of fair houses throughout this movie

[00:41:50] just like that's that's like the repetitive metaphor it's like let's burn houses there's your budget right there is just like well let's build this mansion and burn it right and it's yeah it's a lot of like a metaphor of

[00:42:01] adolescents were right at any time people could just storm through and set everything on for now questions later right yeah so jack bull's dad is murdered by J. Hawkers who the kansans how dare they who support the union yeah

[00:42:20] and so they join the bushwhackers really we just we fade out and then we go to this scene where is that then we meet Jim Kavisels character right yes and he's just at this regular he's a union man he's you know

[00:42:33] going to this just trading post or whatever right and they're talking whatever and pulls out guess what we're killing all you motherfuckers and everyone shows up and shoot it all right they kill like the you know the wife is like please don't kill my husband and you

[00:42:49] know just shoot some right there and they burn the whole place down this part of the movie feels like the 18 like it feels like here's just a bunch of rap scallions are going around burning stuff yep make it a mess of things Kavisels intense in this movie black

[00:43:03] John Ambrose that's his name he's intent he's definitely in that period where it's right after the thin red line right you give him like a little part and he goes like hey can I do as much as I possibly can for this I'm

[00:43:16] planning on playing him as haunted right is that is that a good call do you think right and infinite well of emotion is that cool is that a cool eyes are going to shimmer at all times yeah angelize right

[00:43:27] yeah I got the sense that he could yep there you go he he's really got a Christ complex going on hey now I feel like 90s pepper and we're diesel is he a weird guy I think

[00:43:38] he's kind of a weird guy weird guy he does a lot of movies with weird people to be a weird guy I don't think weird bad I think just weird is the sense I get well apparently he hates stem cell research okay weird and filmed an ad

[00:43:53] against it that began with him saying an Aramaic which he did learn for the passion of the Christ you betray the son of man with a kiss and the director said Jim this is supposed to be a Carl's junior commercial just so that's a

[00:44:08] little wild talk about the Western bacon also requested that Jennifer Lopez wear a top during his sexing with her in angelize out of respect for his wife so is he just super religious and he donated to Rick Santorum I guess

[00:44:25] so yeah he's a very religious man he just played he played Paul the Apostle of Christ right Jesus Christ is he in that movie yeah well I think does he not play plays Luke okay one of the other apostles still kind of weird when you

[00:44:39] play Jesus that's maybe he wants to collect them all like he wants to be everyone in the last supper but like what if Robert Downey Jr retired from doing Iron Man and then showed up as Bucky in the next movie that'd be weird right.

[00:44:52] Yes, is the best of those four he's the best apostle of the four books of the Bible. Yes, he's the best writer at least. You're sitting out there right now if you're gonna get it from my Catholic school if you're going to play an apostle

[00:45:03] that's the guy to play no question yeah you guys were my apostles. God I would say right at the top of the head Robert Deval probably right. I like the wise guys mean the three wise men. Oh yeah he opposes abortion.

[00:45:23] Yeah, you know he's a right wing religious man okay well that's a religious man in our Cavizel politics corner correct he's an intense man he's always crying or screaming yeah and he's he's leading these these fellas yeah they very quickly get lined up with Simon Baker the

[00:45:38] mentalist himself. Yeah so the person of interest in the mentalists have united here CBS just like dug into the ride with the devil cast for a long time. Yeah that's true this is Jeffrey right have a CBS show as

[00:45:50] well maybe I don't think he did this is missing a crumb hole to and then you'd have almost the Tuesday night line of yeah Rob Murrow. No right has never done a TV show until well he did Boardwalk Empire but yeah but until Westworld yeah it's

[00:46:05] but I would watch like Jeffrey right investigates though. Oh yeah you know he's just like well he showed up for like two scenes of game night and I was hoping he's so fucking good and I got him game night yeah

[00:46:16] he's so good in it and and they he his casting is a joke. Yeah to be like wouldn't be funny if this was Jeffrey right in this kind of movie and it makes you angry that you don't get to watch him for another hour.

[00:46:27] I love Jeffrey right can we Jeffrey right stand for a fantastic actor. He's a wonderful actor. He's one of my guys. Sure he is a fantastic which he's so close to being the kind of actor I hate except I love him.

[00:46:40] Well his shaft I mean that's his next big role right is doing shaft and that's just one of the all time like as people turn over acting this entire thing. I mean he can be a little anyway he can be a little

[00:46:50] Baroque like he is just he makes that work. He is a paprika salesman. Yeah he's a paprika he's rolling up his car but I think most the time he gives you just the right amount. Yeah it's very theatrical. It's something like source code where you're like

[00:47:03] you didn't need a cane and literally gave yourself a limp like that's like the joke of when an actor needs business but I mean he's the kind of guy who when he's under playing it is over playing it but in a way

[00:47:13] I really like like a casino Royale where he's just like you know he's playing a guy who doesn't talk much and he looks at his bottom of his glass. You're just waiting for him to like do some things right.

[00:47:23] I always I always just get excited when he's on screen. He's great in Ali. He's great in the Manchurian candidate and Cadillac records. Oh he's fantastic in that as many waters. I like him and obviously very good in Angels in America.

[00:47:37] He's great in that he was he was fun in the Hunger Games movies. Remember he was like the weird tech guy. That's another example of I think Jeffrey Wright would have won Best Supporting Actor that year if that had been a theatrical film. Angels in America.

[00:47:49] Yeah but it wouldn't be a theatrical film. But I'm saying hypothetically because we keep on talking about how bad 2003 was. Oh sure fair enough. Let's go back to the 2003 well right. He's amazing in Angels in America. Right but this feels like this was kind of like

[00:48:02] an anointment moment where they were like Jeffrey Wright we're bringing you into the studio system. You're going to be a substantial movie actor now and then this film doesn't really go but this feels like it's designed to be a Best Supporting Actor vehicle right. Sure yeah fair point.

[00:48:15] I mean it seems like the kind of thing that like had it done well at the box office should have been like a dunk nomination and eight nine. It would have been one of those films that gets a ton of nominations but maybe wins like a cinematographer

[00:48:27] or something. Good looking movie. Yeah shot by Frederick Alms. So he grew up next to a neighbor of Simon Baker. His father was murdered. No wait what do you know who grew up the next to a neighbor. Jeffrey Wright's character. I thought he was his slave. Simon Baker.

[00:48:43] That's how I always took it. The next next door neighbor. Right because my understanding was that he bought him. Oh okay. Okay sure sure and then freedom. Yeah but the idea is that Jeffrey Wright feels because I was yes feels indebted to him.

[00:48:57] Yes and their friends they have a bond right and I think he gets a sense that at least in this in this neighborhood and everything it's probably better to stick with Simon Baker and whatever he's up to then you know go off on his own.

[00:49:09] Right but he kind of feels like he can't leave him and so he's sort of out of obligation and solidarity fighting against his people fighting for the south. And not only that he's some crackers was better than that. He's also in league with a group that regards

[00:49:26] him very oddly like they you know they view him like what's this game doing here right. Yeah and he just kind of that's one of the only other places there where we see another African American is at some point during like one of their

[00:49:37] like night parties or something you see Jeffrey Wright like serving whiskey and I think you see another extra who's an African American who's like clearly on like slave duty. Right no it's he's an odd presence in the movie but like intentionally so.

[00:49:51] But it's always kind of odd when people bring him up or they try to start trouble about him like Simon Baker always sort of defends him without ever totally humanizing him. Right you know he's sort of like he has a free pass.

[00:50:04] I owe this man my life right so you can't kill him but I'm not going to tell you have to treat him like he's constantly at risk like in Lawrence massacre you know some guy drunken guy kind of grabs him

[00:50:15] and like is going to attack him and you know has to be talked down because it's right. And Jeffrey Wright is great at mouth business. He's really good at mouth acting. So when you give Jeffrey Wright a beard it's just like it's like a fucking five course meal.

[00:50:30] It's perfect. He's good with a beard. Yeah he's great with a beard. It's a short beard big beard like whatever. I'll take it. Yeah. Yeah he said this is his favorite movie he's ever done. Well and that he's like still to this day very irritated that six people.

[00:50:42] Yeah yeah well six people saw it Jeffrey six people but hey got a criterion. Yeah he's like the one actor who like. Talks about this movie 20 minute interview with him on the criterion about this. Oh I should tell this story.

[00:50:56] Okay criterion 50% off sale ever a bunch of stuff Congrats including this film because I knew we were going to cover Ang Lee and I order to count them to Agnes Varda box sets for Omley's birthday because I'm a fucking

[00:51:10] cool older brother stolen the whole thing was like package was stolen. But did you like report this crime to the male crime police. I am in a building with four apartments one apartment per floor. Sure. I am going out to do a show in Brooklyn during a snowstorm

[00:51:30] Humble brag. Yeah Humble brag I did a show for $5 literally I think I got paid $5. I'm going to just just level with you that's too low. You think that's too low. You know I study a lot of contract law I can tell you

[00:51:43] about gross versus net agents went back and forth on that one for like months before I agreed to do this basement they were like how about this $4 if it snows five yeah and you're like sign $5. As I was walking out I saw the package there in the

[00:51:59] lobby I was like huh I will leave that here right now in the vestibule of the building and when I come back home I will bring it upstairs to my apartment. Oh big mistake but the vestibule is locked. Okay. Yeah I get you okay.

[00:52:14] Come back package gone text my best friends who live my neighbors on the first floor you know two out of the four you don't know all four right see I live in a four plex I know all my neighbors I mean I know

[00:52:26] them enough that I can do a rapid tap tap on the door but I said hey did you take the package because sometimes they'll take my packages in I said no but we heard someone buzzing in earlier I think he was trying to steal the mail.

[00:52:42] Wow so some guy was like haha oh here's $175 worth of criteria and blue rays what would you get a settlement the black market I don't know. But I report the crime to the mail police who could I report it to them they successfully delivered at

[00:52:56] the mail delivered it the postal service delivered it to my home I guess so you know yeah I don't know I've done that. I want to thank Jesse Ryan Knight sure friend blankie listener who gave me his copy of ride with the devil

[00:53:11] and blue rays birthday present because he saw that I had my copy stolen. I bought a copy of ride with the devil and it was delivered to my home safely. Can have everything pretty early on in the film they realize they need to hibernate for the winter.

[00:53:28] Yeah they have to pull what do you what was that of revolutionary workplace that I visited Valley Forge which is like we're like why am I visiting this like well this is where they stayed during the winter when they

[00:53:41] couldn't move they stayed in these huts and you're kind of like oh so it wasn't like a battle here and they're like no no they simply had to they had very little food you like sounds rough and they're like yes very

[00:53:52] bad it's also weird to be like I understand like practical realities but to be like hey how's the war going. Well it's a winner kind of a break right now so we're just not going to do it just sort of in a holding pattern.

[00:54:03] I don't know if you notice but it's no just good faith agreement will give the film a lot of credit and I'm and you know I'd have to go back and watch like Gettysburg Glory but like there's actually seasons in this movie

[00:54:12] matter and like filming like I don't know how long the filming took on this but it like they must have like had to like take breaks because like you can't fake the seasons that the way this film not the way this

[00:54:22] film looks which is very natural and very yes well the filming must have been long because they started back in the Civil War and that didn't come out until 1999 so. Interesting bit. How you feel a graph terrible. Yeah I'm very upfront about they hunkered down in a

[00:54:41] I don't know build it. Yeah little fort cave because Skidork is like hey I know this lady who I think has a crush on me she used to live in a car she's released two albums. Sure yeah no no it's not him it's it's Simon Baker right

[00:54:57] time and goes the ladies at the House of I always forget that guy's name Zach right yeah yes yes right who has is a Gary you must if you're making a film about the 19th century of America oh yeah you must cast

[00:55:11] at Grenier as something yeah Zach Grenier also looks like darkest timeline Toby McGuire sure they have the same sort of wet eye kind of thing yeah going on. So that seems pretty harrowing when they come face to face

[00:55:24] but so they build like a little a little like wick wall like a little like beaver dam yeah that they hide out in and that's when we get to the skeleton crew of like Baker McGuire right and Ulrich right for a greatest movie guys

[00:55:40] being dude just guys being dudes and this is sort of like a Civil War entourage sort of section of the film right and Ulrich and Jewel start bone and bone. I mean the whole thing is that Jewel just comes out of nowhere right.

[00:55:52] This horse yeah one nice blonde hair right and it's like you know what Jeffrey right there's he's the one who goes to Toby McGuire it's like you better get in there boy if you want to like get in on this because there's a first thing right.

[00:56:06] Inside the house. What are you talking about go inside that little hole there everyone's talking to this lady McGuire is very awkward with the girls though Jake wrote out but he's killed at 17 man well he's gonna isn't gotten there yeah.

[00:56:20] No he's he's very you start to realize like his whole like only idiots get married kind of feels like a kid punching a little girl in the schoolyard right like he just seems terrified by women. Yeah very much so duchy then what happens until Ulrich gets

[00:56:36] shot like what goes on apart from the romance. We get the romance right that's a lot we get what we got to really set up the romance right because there's like the first time where you know. Skeet Ulrich and Jewel they're making out having a good time

[00:56:52] and Toby McGuire and Jeffrey writer just sitting there inside and Toby McGuire not a fan of the making out going on no no not a door room in the room really yeah and tell me why he's like Huffin and see me he's like thought we were

[00:57:04] pushbackers you know yeah this isn't war so then we get the agreement to you know just kick him out of the dorm for the evening it's like she's coming over yeah everyone on the non you guys go have you guys throw throw

[00:57:17] acorns at squirrels like that's like his line and whiteboard we're gonna go up throw acorns at squirrels yeah but this is when Jeffrey right first starts to talk when they're sort of in the foxhole together. Simon Baker kind of explains their relationship until

[00:57:32] McGuire starts acknowledging him because you're right Jeffrey writes kind of just lurking at this point right have we seen him kill someone I thought we've gotten the sense that he's a good shoot though that's it's sure that's a Jeffrey right is like a fantastic person

[00:57:43] have on your side. He's a good warrior I don't know I don't think there's really any battles maybe I can't remember I'd like to I'd have to rewash because the early scenes are very chaotic but we're gonna get into a scene because

[00:57:53] after it's when they're when when Skid Ulrich finally gets his moment to shine with jewel give me one hour yeah and then 15 minutes later it's like you know he gets he gets a little while he gets a nut well he only needs 15 minutes as we learn you

[00:58:08] guys know what I'm talking about you try to put the moves on lady and then a civil war breaks out and it's like what. Okay so Skeet is is Skeeting yeah he's got a funny name yeah why is his name Skeet oh do you know

[00:58:24] what his real name is Brian Ray trout yes it is what a name no part of Skeet Ulrich is real like even come in as like this is the name you should take as an actor his little league coach called

[00:58:36] him Skeeter because he was small because he had poor health and frequent bouts of pneumonia did he have a dog named pork chop. Oh boy he was an only credited extra in weekend at Bernie's oh so that's why he went by Skeet

[00:58:57] professionally like I don't know that's kind of a leap just because your little league coach bullied you yeah my little league coach called me fuck head and I didn't go by that professionally only coach called you get in right field and don't talk to me fuck Ulrich.

[00:59:11] Fuck new man that'd be good yeah but where did all Rick come from oh yeah I don't know good point right even think of his last name no part of his name is real trout well Skeet trout doesn't really you know you can't the TT.

[00:59:26] Be a maiden name of some sort yeah I'm not. I'm not get his stepfather his stepfather's name David Donald sorry Donald Ulrich who is a stock car driver. Wow I think Skeet Ulrich might have had an interesting life yeah I mean like this all sounds this all

[00:59:43] sounds very romantic only to bring a little bit of that to the screen you know yeah what do you think a skeet he's kind of boring him so he dies an hour into the movie or point spoiler alert and that's

[00:59:53] where we're at he gets shot and he takes a while to die right he actually dies because they chop his arm off well yeah well the whole thing and this is where like and gets into like his whole thing about like this movie and like subverting

[01:00:04] the western is right they go to write off because I forget who's that fucking actor the Toby McGright looking actor to Zach Rainier you're really struggling with Zach Rainier so yeah he's such a that guy who's nobody knows his name right.

[01:00:20] He dies yes they like charge and you know you get like the whole drums pounding everything here's big action scenes going to happen and then like you know big camera sweep dolly over helicopter shot and then it's like the battle is like a

[01:00:32] two minute like you know people just shooting in random directions everywhere and you know skeet all Rick gets shot and then we go back and it's like well that was a battle that was it that was shitty and isn't dead so they're like I guess we could cut

[01:00:47] his arm off in a Simon Baker takes off he's like I'm done fuck this. This is gonna marry me so I'm taking out alright open the door let's get this over with create. Oh my God. My God you see that no small naked man okay

[01:01:08] sir keep a close on big glasses and a bowler had small naked man big glasses and a bowler. God was this card in the middle of recording. Oh my God this is so embarrassing. Uh-huh it's cousin it. Okay from the Adams family he's lost all his

[01:01:26] hair usually famed for his hair is lost all his hair he's buck naked now in our studio but a bowler hat. Well he sounds like he sounds like 66% of men who lose their hair by age 35. Oh I thought you meant by naked.

[01:01:42] And like by the time you start to notice it's too late to reverse the trend clearly even these thick glasses couldn't help him. See the thing is it's cousin. See he's not my cousin the thing is it. Yeah no thing is a different character. All right.

[01:01:57] It's easier to use the hand it's easy to keep the hair you have than to replace what you lost. Okay so if you're seeing your hair recede a little bit yeah or if you know in its case I guess maybe

[01:02:08] like stepping out of the shower and there's a little little leftover in the drain and a little more than a lot you know maybe you want to go to forehims.com and like you know get some doctor recommended solutions to treat hair loss.

[01:02:24] It looks like he doesn't have any hair to oh oh God look at his butt is really hairy. Well the only spot where he has lost it. Hems connects you to real doctors and they give you medical grade solutions to treat hair loss

[01:02:39] generic equivalents to name branch prescriptions that'll help you keep your hair. You want to keep the but here. Okay yeah he does yeah you don't have to go to the awkward doctor visits you don't have to like pick up your products they get shipped directly

[01:02:54] to your door clearly not much of a people person. Our listeners are going to have trial month of him's for just five dollars today while supplies last see the website for full details it's forehims.com but it would cost hundreds if you went to a doctor

[01:03:06] or a pharmacy so wait a second so cousin it's asking me he should just type in I know what he's gonna ask for him's and just check that was the end of the year now you go to forehims.com

[01:03:17] slash blank that's f or h i m s dot com slash plank. Nice to meet you can we get some disinfectant because he was wiping his butt all over these walls you in the butts I'll get the me in the butts him

[01:03:31] in the butts you in the but me in the butts. I was not my fault the cleaning crew to take care of it. Thank you. How'd you feel about that Peter that that that was some great work I just I just I do

[01:03:43] not spill on my ads I'm just like it's movie there's a good this is the good dars they go very top group Marxist film from the 72 check it out and use the color hands are forced here's the thing

[01:03:55] I would love to get ads out as quickly as possible and it feels like every time I'm Shanghai by some kind of fool some creature some real character comes in holds his hostage. It's true to get an ad done 30 seconds I can't

[01:04:12] tell you how much so Skeetal Rooks debt. A skeetal or well we're gonna get in many sense the bullet first. Yeah they take out the bullet that doesn't doesn't go so hot gangrene comes in yeah you're right I mean he wants this to take its time

[01:04:27] and be realistic right like again he's subverting the romanticism of death right so then we're going south we got to deliver jewel to somewhere safe and we get to is it Tom Wilkinson. No yeah it is right Tom will turn into actor actress Margot Martin down that's right.

[01:04:43] This movie is just like like chalk full because you have like James or Baniak as like the guy trading up scalps at the poker game. Yeah that's a creepy scene. Yeah you see Lea Weston pops up in this yeah.

[01:04:56] Yeah they play you know the they have a nice home I don't know they play the nice home people. Yeah yeah they're kind of chill they're just enjoying life and did they have like a son who's died in the war or something or they just

[01:05:09] Baron well I forget jewel will jewels there kid right well jewels gonna be their kid right. No I can't remember what their backstory is supposed to be and the whole time I'm thinking like has Tom Wilkinson been in in the bedroom yet

[01:05:25] but he hasn't no he hasn't so I guess he's been in the full Monty yeah he's been in rush hour what year is that 98 okay so this right yeah can't believe you don't remember when rush hour came out yeah that's but it's just they go from

[01:05:39] Grenier House to Wilkinson House right there's sort of like their whole life is like will someone take us in do they know she's pregnant at this point well I mean I don't know if they know no no they do right I mean spoiler

[01:05:51] she's pregnant spoiler skeet old Rick skeet he skeeted yeah I don't know thanks for doing it yeah I mean you're welcome I think I should take that out yeah just take it right actually can you keep it in a double I mean that's

[01:06:05] a skeet all right did that's what he kept it in and doubled it could take that out Ben can you keep that in triple it yeah what happens now I'm trying to remember what happens before the like quantrell shows up like if there's anything major in between the

[01:06:21] you know skeets death and the Lawrence massacre Peter's they go to Wilkinson's house hang out it's not the part where they're like need to sit there for like no rest of the movie but this is like a base for that you know yeah like hanging I mean

[01:06:37] that's like what a lot of this movie is they're just like sitting in they're doing some chores say the thing war takes so long takes long and who has the time chores need to be done yeah they're kind of a pain in the ass like I wouldn't want

[01:06:52] them in my like quite nice little yeah country house but I guess that's that's like the life of a bushwhacker is you're basically like freeloading off of people right or staying in a cave but really is like then they're going to

[01:07:05] go meet up with quantrell by that point yeah right who is like her row quote-unquote heroic figure in the bushwhackers who is perpetrated the great at the most deadly act of terrorism in American history apart from 9 11 played by this day by he's not an actor who's I've

[01:07:22] never heard of speech like John Ailes he gets this huge moment right like all the all the big fancy like closeups and like and he's he's the perfect look he's got like the goatee or whatever you know the sort of like forked mustache

[01:07:37] and the sideburns and he looks I mean that that's I love this moment because it's so old-fashioned and her any all the all the men mass together like it feels like you get it but you know a moment we forgot to talk about

[01:07:52] what the the little mini ruffaloark oh yeah where they capture him to McGuire shows a mercy let's him go ruffalo runs right back kills McGuire's dad and the virus like why did he do that my dad was on the same side as him and they're like doesn't matter

[01:08:11] you're now the bigger deal oh they killed your dad because he's your dad not because of what he stands for right yeah you because you joined up with the you cast a die for everyone around you and very interesting enough that's not like then like a later

[01:08:26] plot where he's gonna go go get you don't even see ruffalo again right but I think it's kind of important well because I think Baker says you taught him a lesson he forgot the lesson right but but it's kind of important

[01:08:37] cuz like McGuire's in so deep at that point it's like it doesn't matter what I do my reputation now like outlives me and is stuck to everyone around me so he's gonna like the fucking go down swinging yeah I guess so I don't

[01:08:55] know why else you would I guess the idea of going to Lawrence was like that was seen as like the a stronghold for the J Hawks and we were gonna get our revenge right there's a there's the women's prison all right and the women's

[01:09:07] prison collapse right which is seen as this like atrocity like they had like tossed a bunch of prisoners into a shoddy building and a lot of people died so I guess there was some sort of like that's right that's his big speech is like the you know we're

[01:09:22] answering this war crime you know there's a Spielberg produced many series called into the West yes 2005 that also features the Lawrence massacre Lawrence massacre was in that as well seems plausible I kind of think he was in that for some reason I remember that

[01:09:38] it's now I'm not seeing any skeet no risk no yes yes yes yes he plays Jethro Wheeler thank you yeah you're right I went deep on skeet when I was watching this movie sure I mean this really is the end of skeet as a movie

[01:09:56] star Jericho well right he was over to TV and he was on Jericho which was a post-apocalyptic TV show and they cancel it in fan sentence spoons and now it was peanuts I think alright someone else had spoons and he was referenced

[01:10:10] in that little John song is that right oh so all right all right it's weird how they would always on the radio at it they would cut out the all right fuck yeah I know skeet skeet skeet all right all right come on let's talk about Lawrence

[01:10:29] massacre guys okay like that part is a bit distressing favorite most clearly like cinematic reference is like this is the scene at the end of the searchers yes yeah where John Wayne and they go to like you know get that and though you

[01:10:43] know Ford pulls a narrative toward Natalie would essentially and we sort of avoid what's going on in that but like that's clearly like what Ang Lee was thinking about with like I'm going to do that scene but I'm going to show what actually happens in the camps right

[01:10:56] that's another reference to something else but that's not what I mean in the in the town yes no just like yeah you know walking into saloons yeah pulling out the men and shooting them here's my hot take it sucks I fucking hate it

[01:11:10] good film making not into it bad history sure don't like it I think these guys are jerks yeah I think they act like a bunch of fucking I just love the mundanity of it though I it's yeah especially after that big

[01:11:24] speech in that like you know I think the master stroke is sweet how much it keeps on cutting back to that kid having to observe everything and ending it with the kid then shooting someone himself right wait who's the who's the character that follows a

[01:11:37] there's a German the German is a German guy with the whiskey yeah he is so good and is it Kavisa who sticks with Simon Baker I was a baker and big and he he's want to back you want to make a baker is like dead in the eyes

[01:11:52] at this point but he's like and then he finally shoots him right at the end there yeah that guy's good that guy's really that guy's like Mickey Mouse in saving private Ryan where he's like so a bonk killer like he's just like

[01:12:04] this is how I'll save myself yeah right I try to find the name of the actor but no it's gross because it's like it's the kind of scene you've seen in westerns where like you've you know you've acquitted yourself to the townspeople and then this big bad

[01:12:19] group rolls in and like causes havoc and in this movie the people causing havoc are the people you've been with for the last fucking 90 minutes and it's just a bummer to watch and you know Toby isn't exactly heroic but he's apathetic at this point

[01:12:35] he gets a good brunch he gets a good brunch yeah wait I recognize those actors too who are those people I maybe not we haven't talked about his sort of doppelganger in this movie that's like sort of his whole enemy Jonathan Reese Myers yeah the Jonathan Reese

[01:12:49] Myers yeah he's always hey uh the Dutch yeah you're doing like that that he's got I don't even know what kind of accent he's doing to do an idylline this is an example of like you need to cast someone like Jonathan Reese

[01:13:01] Myers because you need to cast someone so visually distinctive he's got such a face out every time you cut a gold mine like he was you know I don't love him as an actor but I can't deny the power of his face it's so unusual looking yeah he's

[01:13:16] effective he's like a good piece of art design sure right exactly he's well-painted and he's kind of stripped down of a lot of his worst tendencies in this movie I find him effecting in the final scene yeah the final scene is very good yeah but but

[01:13:31] wait who is it that because they have the run of wanting the coffee right this brunch thing who is it who makes the brunch it's like nice old people I just thought I recognized just but maybe I can't but it's jothin rice Myers wants to come in

[01:13:44] and like he's shooting me is like well we need to finish our brunch first yeah and he's so grumpy about it that like he's not even he's not even like making a stand like it's not like he's you know but it also

[01:13:59] doesn't even seem it's hard to tell what his motivations are in that scene because he's not being crafty but he is if that makes sense right like it almost seems like he just wants to fuck with Jonathan Reese Myers like he doesn't

[01:14:12] even really care about the idea of this being this sort of like coming of age movie it's like they're these high schoolers full of hormone words yes no this is a coming of age yeah because it really just feels like bullying like this shit when I'll

[01:14:26] shoot you know you don't have to be McGuire looking at this scene and being like wow this is a horrible thing that I should not be doing exactly he's just sort of but it's like he's sort of abstaining at this point it's like the kid

[01:14:38] watching his friend get beaten up and not doing anything you know he also says vitals which is a constitutional requirement for any civil war yes correct you must say the word but they just go so beyond in terms of like personal embarrassment

[01:14:52] like the level of what they try to do in this town in terms of just like yeah it's also halfway through they're just like this isn't this isn't very heroic is it like I guess I thought we were gonna like fight people right yeah yeah

[01:15:06] what when does some baker get shot well then they have the battle with the unit with the actual unit so and they show but could also we should mention their their scheme is that they ride in in the blue coats right like they they pull right before the

[01:15:19] fight they're like marching up in like it's one time they're actually like in an organized formation of any type and then they pull them off and run right in we should also mention that we watch this movie a week ago because we thought we were gonna

[01:15:30] record and then there was a snowstorm so we're a little fog gear on it but this is like the most traditionally big battle in the film yeah sure the one with barely a battle yeah yeah yeah and it's yeah it's just

[01:15:43] kind of like just death just muddy death so Simon Baker we've got this battle and like all the other battles I mean right you know I mean and there's something I'm sure you guys will talk through like the entire series but

[01:15:58] like Ang Lee is like a very like smart filmmaker like he's the camera is always in the nice place but he's not like the David Fincher or Kubrick type words like these very very exacting shots or whatever exactly not even in this battle

[01:16:10] in that way he's not going to take us he's not showy and it's one of the reasons why he's such a good close-up filmmaker yeah because he's really into the power of getting he loves physical detail and the right facial expression in order to progress

[01:16:24] and he likes the atmosphere that he works in I mean this is a film that's full of atmosphere so it's the road back so as you know what it I mean all the other sets of Hulk for that matter yeah that's everyone talks about on his sets whether

[01:16:38] he is filming more on location or what have you yeah he spends a lot of time in the downtime while such as being shot up set up just sort of walking around absorbing all of it and really trying to get a sense of

[01:16:50] place which this movie certainly has yeah it's but it's it still balls you to make your big western and your big civil war movie centered around is just like an unambiguous act of terrorism which is all that while and also not have it end with

[01:17:06] them going like oh maybe we were wrong exactly don't not only not end with that not really end with like some punishment for the care no but it does end on actually I think a very very different note go ahead well do

[01:17:18] we want to get let's let's get there but I think you know yeah absolutely but it's not like it ends with like I mean for example like you could have kept Skeet until now and then dies tragically here right and Toby's

[01:17:31] like oh like I think this is terrible we should never have you know like oh the cost the human cost there's neither redemption nor punishment no and like and his quote unquote heroic act is sparing the the nice egg makers from

[01:17:48] like a psycho who wants to shoot them it feels like so on he's not a psycho I mean I relate to this guy he's a J. J. Jotlin rice Myers yeah he hates eggs and he wants to murder anyone who likes eggs I mean I relate

[01:18:00] to this I think is the most sympathetic character in the phone people who like eggs are monsters uh-huh eggs are for lunatics you almost done all egg fans should you know what you need to do is when you're scrambling eggs if you drop

[01:18:12] a little bit of lemon in the scramble before you fry it that's where you get the acid because you need to have a little of your acid with your salt and fat Peter how dare you imply that I would ever scramble an egg okay

[01:18:29] anyways drop that lemon the disgrace okay so Simon Baker dies yeah yeah and Jonathan rice Myers tries to shoot Jeffrey Wright yes yes another guy tries to attack him too yeah Simon Baker dies and Toby gets shot to Toby gets shot they both

[01:18:50] get shot yeah in the leg I think as they're fleeing essentially right yeah and then they go back to Tom Wilkinson and Margo Martindale it's true and Tom Wilkins is like oh hi you guys again fyi jewels pregnant she's got her baby already we hear

[01:19:11] right and she's twice because Jules already a widow when we meet her right so she's already a woman of the world that's sort of an underrated aspect of her character right is that told me you guys are such a boy about certain

[01:19:23] things well he's got 17 man I think it's 15 but he's killed many men where she's sort of been around the block a couple times yes probably my favorite scene the film yep is Toby and Jeffrey in bed together yeah they start this is where

[01:19:40] the film kind of goes from like great to amazing for me like this whole last so that's I'm all about the last 45 minutes of this yeah and I got it just put out there that I have my struggles with the first hour and 30

[01:19:54] well the first act of the movie especially the snow you know the winter hunkering down is challenge and it's like to be happy with that yeah and look right it has a lot of ski right who's okay right there's a real chill

[01:20:07] factor at work until we get to the ski shooting I'm gonna get just a lot of chill factor until the ski shooting mm-hmm do you see what I did there no ski get shot yeah ski shooting is also a thing I got

[01:20:17] you yeah ski ski all right all right Peter save us something so Jules pregnant and Toby require has to sit there and hold the baby yes he's gonna sit there and be like I'm holding a baby it's true and it goes from like holding a baby

[01:20:32] that's not man's work too like I'm kind of into holding this baby I mean the whole thing though is like when he gets there it's like Jules had this kid yep why aren't you marrying this yeah because it's like the Bible says

[01:20:43] your brother dies you got to take up his no no no no no no no no no no he thinks that Toby's the father that's the thing right right that's the whole thing like excuse me boys roll girls roll excuse me I'm the and and I

[01:20:55] think yeah well there's there's like Wilkinson there's a cousin that comes is like doesn't matter you're the father yeah I don't care who it is but you are the father now excuse me so I'm not that much dot dot dot now I got

[01:21:07] my cootie shot he hates girls he does hate girls yeah he likes war yes and having long hair right and shooting people yeah he thinks he likes that stuff at least and now we start to become genuine buddies with Jeffrey right yeah with hold

[01:21:21] with hold and you'll hold starts talking about they have this one night God English really good at scenes where people talk to each other without looking at each other yeah oh yeah he's really good at shooting those we should also say the dialogue in this

[01:21:34] movie this movie is written by James James yes just shame it's very flowery and very like accurate to the time like it's not trying to do the thing a lot of period dramas do where they're like well let's just have them talk a little more naturally

[01:21:45] now and it can be you know it's sort of like appropriating how they are shameless really likes adaptation like he just find it an interesting like thing like out my to my relationship with James about it Jimmy yeah I'm gay he teaches at Columbia University

[01:22:01] where I did both an undergrad and an MA at one point he only teaches he does not teach production he does not teach producing okay teaches film theory this is his like mandate I will only teach the most useless stuff of film academia this is like

[01:22:16] his sort of thing yeah I'm not gonna give you any practical tips here but even though I was the head of a studio practically so he teaches his graduate course it was like when I took it it was like his last year before he was

[01:22:26] fired from focus when like Anna Karina was bombing and all these films were bombing it was their first red year actually that was his only right here in focus history was that year and that was the year for that yeah like fucking firing off of it

[01:22:39] if he anyway exactly so focus was like what if we suck now that was their whole like business sort of reorganization strategy so he teaches a class for mostly MFA students and a couple of master students called scene narrative and he doesn't really tell you what the

[01:22:53] classes about but you're gonna you're gonna do a very very intense discussion you're gonna start with Shakespeare sonnets then you're gonna read a lot of play dough then you're gonna read a lot of 16th century Renaissance art theory so Lessing and Alberti then we did

[01:23:09] three weeks of Kant critique of critique of judgment which is whole idea of aesthetic then we read a couple not we did some poetry we said did some John Ashbury recently passed away great poet we read a novel called tonazaki's the key which is one of the great

[01:23:25] unfilmable novels you can read this in a couple hours I highly recommend it's about it's a Japanese novel about it's an epistolar it's two diaries that you're reading back and forth between a husband wife and at various points you learn that they're

[01:23:40] reading each other's diaries so then you have to rethink the entire way that you're looking so it's a great novel and so it's a Scooby-Doo gets on some master or I'm just running through the tenants of sort of narrative here

[01:23:53] yeah so then at the end it's like the ideas I think he really is kind of interested in the idea of like what narrative isn't how then you visualize it and I don't know if I quote-in-quote like learned anything in the class

[01:24:06] I ended up writing a final paper about content Stan Brackage because it just seemed to write for the class and he's like that's fine with me he is one of these guys these rare examples of someone who seems to have pulled off a human hat trick in the

[01:24:20] film industry where he has a lot of real intellect and creative integrity really sharp business acumen and he is a human being and not a monster yeah he has a PhD from Berkeley he's got a book on Carl Theodore Dreyer he's got this entire chapter

[01:24:36] if you've seen the movie Gertrude there's a fake Renaissance painting in Gertrude this is like Dreyer's last film from the 60s one of like the hardcore art cinema movies of all time and it's this fake Renaissance painting of like Venus being ripped together in dogs

[01:24:50] he's got an entire chapter just deconstructing that painting James Schumer's fucking rules he sounds pretty cool and like you know he like I have never seen Gertrude now I want to see Gertrude yeah I mean that that's a you know get ready for a movie sure

[01:25:03] I feel like that way about a lot of Dreyer that I have seen yeah but uh yeah no Seamus is smart I mean when I had him on my podcast you can check it out the Cinephileax how's that but there's a great interview I have

[01:25:14] with James Seamus and I asked him about making sort of middle brow movies right focus features this is sure the classic along with Sony Pictures Classics and you know kind of been talking about like because this is a guy that you know he knows his barks

[01:25:29] he knows his like all these sort of things buying into like whatever late capitalism is in our days and he's like you know Brokeback Mountain started a conversation like you can't deny that like yeah you know we made change however small or slim you want to say

[01:25:46] like you know we also fit into a market we knew what we were doing I was the one who did talk to me there is a Cassie Lemons who directs a great movie like actually look at the focus record pretty good with no people of color

[01:25:58] absolutely and even like movies like the motorcycle diaries or whatever that are like you know being presented as these sort of old people movies like these are movies about you know interesting know outside of the world so that's kind of what makes like ride with the devil

[01:26:12] interesting as his flop is he's pretty good at knowing what his audiences are and this one didn't go no this one didn't go but I appreciate the effort I think it's beautifully adapted so let's talk about the end of ride with the devil guys

[01:26:27] so Tom Wilkinson is being very mysterious he's got to go into town and Jeffrey Wright is going to come with I really enjoyed this part of the room is making a chicken she's making a fucking chicken and Toby McGuire is suspicious

[01:26:38] they don't make you don't do a roast chicken oh, oh my God we did go over my favorite scene we skipped over which is Jeffery Wright and Tom McGuire in the bag Jeffery Wright talks about the fact that he now feels free for the first time

[01:26:50] yes it's a gorgeous piece of acting you've always been free and he's like that that wasn't freedom right you know he talks about oh he says you know he's talking about Simon Baker's death and he goes I know what you're feeling you're feeling the loss right

[01:27:04] and he goes it's not a loss it's a freedom yeah this is the first time I've actually felt free even though he's clearly moved by the death of Simon Bay and he's very you know he's very affected by it and he was close to him

[01:27:13] but it was also it was this kind of abusive relationship in a long way that's right and for the first time Jeffrey Wright is feeling empowered to like that he can pursue his own life yeah so he expresses his intent to Tobe McGuire to leave

[01:27:28] he has to go out in his own and make his way yes that's true yeah that's true so they're both going to depart together and then what happens but Wright's in on this we're gonna make a roast chicken Wright's in on the chicken scheme yeah oh yeah

[01:27:40] everyone's in the scheme except for Tobe and McGuire yeah Tobe and McGuire because we've had a scene where Tobe and Jewel talk about maybe getting married he's like oh hell no that's a great scene I am like and she talks about his nub

[01:27:53] or he talks about his nub who gives the first nub jazz and everyone's talking about nubs yeah but yeah where he's just like huh if I thought about it I would never want to marry you ever never girls are gross yeah I like killing people

[01:28:05] I hear you eat boogers go away he's great in these I love childish Tobe and McGuire the Tobe McGuire is great at hating women yeah is there a New York Times article coming soon? God who I don't know about that I don't know

[01:28:21] of course the free journalist's press so but yes the chicken's being roasted as we discussed off Mike it's a good looking chicken great chicken I mean the at the end of the dinner just a good close-up on the chicken just like that's it's like his Ozu pillow shot

[01:28:37] is like yeah is the shot of the chicken good chicken that was a chicken that fire roasted you know yes yes use a cast iron when you cook chicken if you want oh yeah yeah maybe put a brick on it right no no no

[01:28:49] some people like to do that just just put it in the oven the cast iron you're gonna because you're gonna get crispy from the top but you're also the cast it's gonna get warm don't need to flip it just put in

[01:28:59] and then you can make a really good sauce with all the drippings that come out what about like a like a DVD copy of brick with that on top of the it is very heavy I don't know you're gonna get a rubbery plastic okay that's

[01:29:10] that's maybe the issue yeah yeah might be a little bit of meltage might occur yeah yeah no Tom's gone to get the priest because it's time for Toby to marry Jewel priest is very excited about the chicken first thing he says enters the house says

[01:29:24] I smell that chicken chicken I mean I think it's a rough time right now in Missouri you might not eat a lot of chicken I just like that it feels like it's like the end of the five year engagement or something yeah right

[01:29:34] yeah silly kids are getting married if it's the last thing I do Jeffery writes in on it yeah it's very cute Toby has his talk with jewel is like I guess we can do this yeah he's like I thought you didn't like the nub though and she's like

[01:29:46] yeah it's kind of cute get into the nub yeah he's like well all right you can you can maybe not do regular things in nub but you can do other things I'm DTM down and up down and up um what else so they get married and then

[01:29:59] they get married and then we get the Jeffrey right has to tell Toby what's going on yeah you got sleeping in a bed with a wife yeah he tries to take off his socks getting bed with Jeffrey right he's like this is home base I'm used to this

[01:30:10] this is comfortable yeah right everybody's like you're fucking fool go over there and jewels like yeah you are a fucking fool he is sex ever heard of it right because she's like a you virgin he's like I've killed many men and she's like that's kind of the opposite

[01:30:25] right exactly yeah not going for she's got to take off all his draws and everything yeah she seems to like the pain sure there's a moment where she she gets a good glances down take a little peek of the pain satisfied flushes

[01:30:38] we totally forgot one of the most crucial things that happens at this house and these scenes leading up is Toby McGuire staring at Jules nipple yeah the breastfeeding that is the breastfeeding I know he is really into watching the breastfeeding yeah it's like he's literally

[01:30:52] it's same when say with holding the baby where he's like geez I guess I I never thought about it before I guess they need to drink milk and be held right yeah babies are nice boobs is cool what is going on here

[01:31:04] I thought that all I wanted to do was shoot people yeah many cuts of age story but the age he's coming up is like 10 but that's the thing once you cut his hair he's practically like a fucking 50 year old dad and I mean like that's a great line

[01:31:19] where they go like you almost look like you're 21 again now and he's like I'm still 19 and they're like ooh fuck Jesus Civil War really puts some years on a person city miles yeah yeah so then we get to this really I mean so they're going to take off

[01:31:36] and they got to sneak through town because they're going on their wagon trail they're still wanted go west they're still wanted funeratives they're taking an Uber trail they're going to drop Jeffree right off early yeah right yeah going to California

[01:31:47] no but yeah the last crucial scene is the showdown quote unquote showdown well you know it's kind of like the films that it reminds me of that comes later is a film that I'll really stand for and I feel most people don't it's the truth about Charlie

[01:32:00] Jonathan Demme's Reemys Sherry's the maker of charade yes with Tim Robbins that's a hot take yeah you get this really amazing ending at the so it's like Mark Wahlberg and Bandy Newton and Tim Robbins and everyone's holding guns in the rain and everything

[01:32:14] and then they put the guns down and that's like the end of the movie is they put the guns down they just walk away from it yeah yeah right they they decide to not kill each other and that's kind of at the end of this movie

[01:32:25] get this moment you think it's going to be like a final shoot out and like like setting it all up like little detail shot here and click of the gun and the character the Jonathan Rees-Meyer's character has only been a psycho so it's not like we think like

[01:32:38] oh he'll have chilled out well you almost go like oh that's why the character's been in the movie up until this point like he's had a weird amount of close-ups for how unimportant he's been sure right yeah he'll be the button on the movie

[01:32:48] set up for this moment right and his whole plan is he's still going to go into town where it's like they tell him like they're going to arrest you immediately and he's like I want to I think he says he wants a beer or something or like

[01:32:59] you know right that's what makes him scary you're like this guy's crazy he's got nothing to lose but but this is my kill him for sport and this is the moment that then you realize that what are we doing here like what has all of this

[01:33:12] none of this is mean anything there's no reason we can't just both go on our way yeah war is dawn the war is over we can we can we can live again yeah and let's just live yeah and that's kind of like a really powerful thing for like

[01:33:26] this Civil War movie to like end up and that's why I think like you know the film's weird immorality you know kind of plays into this or it's like it is just like it doesn't matter and this is where I think this is where you get the

[01:33:39] shameless check I think like shameless is a big fan of like the bud bettaker and the Anthony Man Westerns at the 50s it's a sort of psychological Western right of crazy like going on the Tall T yeah Tall T was a film that we discussed in my podcast

[01:33:52] with him but he's really into these films that have this sort of sense that there's a strong moral but it's just not this sort of preach moral it just kind of comes out awkwardly into scenes and moments and that's where this film kind of ends

[01:34:05] but then pretty pointedly the movie ends on Jeffery Wright now that they've made it through it's this sort of goodbye where the two guys God Jeffery Wright has a moment that he plays it's a thing that when actors are able to pull it off it almost

[01:34:20] instantaneously destroys me where as he's saying goodbye to Toby McGuire he starts to break emotionally right and then he shows that he's surprised that he's breaking emotionally and it all happens in a millisecond but they they pull a classic calling by your name they call each other

[01:34:39] by their names no they call each other by each other's name yeah right I'm going to call you by your name right yeah and they it ends with Toby watching him ride off but the final final shot is him riding off this guy now finally gets to have

[01:34:55] going to Texas a life trying to find his mother yes he I mean if I was him I'd go north but you know I understand it's very poetic and moving but also to Jesus yeah I'm gonna rock you but I mean and it's important right

[01:35:08] I mean I just feel like it's as much as you want maybe some sort of moral reckoning at the end of this movie it's like he's saying like yeah there might have been a triumph of the south but mostly these people just stayed in the country

[01:35:21] right and a lot of them did move west maybe or move around but like we did just kind of pick the country up and drop it like and that's I feel it's it's very like it's it's a good signaling of the next 40 years in this country's history

[01:35:37] like everything that we're talking about both the Jeffrey Rydark and the Jonathan Rhysmeyers you know and usually we talk about the western as a genre as basically a post-civil war post-civil war right the western merges out of it and that's sort of like you know that final shot

[01:35:52] it's like it is like the big western landscape shot and like you get the sense that this whole film has just been setting up these narrative dialects that are gonna then play out through the genre well then played out through the genre for the last hundred years

[01:36:04] of cinema but you know and novels and television and what have you yeah I've always wanted to see there's this really interesting television series that's being made in the south called the Ghost Riders or something that's like a post-civil war about a bunch of Confederate soldiers

[01:36:22] who then go around the south like trying to you know right wrongs and it's a western it was super popular in the south in the 60s right around the same time with Brown v. The Board interesting didn't place a well in the north I can't imagine it did

[01:36:36] yeah now none of us have seen the theatrical version of this film right I think the first time I did I saw it I don't remember sure like so it's not fundamentally different I could not tell you one difference between it's maybe just a little well the director's

[01:36:50] cut at it in ten minutes yeah so I mean clear but yes I don't know if there's any like major change it's just more more scenes right yeah probably at the beginning I would imagine I would imagine beefed up the beginning a little more this movie got

[01:37:03] mixed reviews uh-huh and it made no money it made no money I do like Wesley Marr said that it was downright hot-blooded in the nameless violence going on never has never has this war been filmed with such ragged glory the boys grasping at their rifles

[01:37:22] look like trigger happy rock stars so much they threatened to transform the film into a great hair movie just wanted to get to that yeah this movie made 635 thousand dollars which is insincere on a 38 million dollar budget I move two minds on this movie yeah

[01:37:37] it's a colossal flop yeah I'm of two minds on this movie because I think the Jeffrey Wright of it is the most interesting part of the movie oh yeah I just think his movie straight up amazing see I can't I wish I was 100% and on it uh-huh

[01:37:51] and I don't feel like an active sort of resistance to it but it's like I love the structural game of apparently Ang Lee pitched it to Jeffrey Wright as this is a movie about an emerging character both in terms of the narrative the character emerges and this character

[01:38:09] emerging into his own could be a prequel to like a Django on chain sort of thing it feels like right it's so much more melancholy but yeah right in terms of like someone who's going to go south and you know quote-unquote sure right I mean what you're saying

[01:38:23] about it is like this is a film in which part of what makes it interesting and unique is more about what it isn't doing than what it is does and it's always sort of a harder film to then like truly grasp in a way and it's pointedly

[01:38:38] not focusing on the most interesting character in the film for the majority of the film to make a point yeah which is like both effective and frustrating but it's also like a movie about like how the war changed this country yes for the worse

[01:38:51] in a lot of ways and you know for the better obviously in a lot of ways everything's terrible and how it left a lot of people sort of like with no future you know and I don't think it could have been like an HBO miniseries kind of thing

[01:39:04] because you wouldn't have a film in which or TV series like where the Jeffrey Wright character ends on now he's the most important character going on to season two or whatever no I it has to be this weird film two and a half hour thing

[01:39:16] just the right place I I buy more into the film the further it goes on and perhaps it's a movie the more I sit with it or if I ever see it again we'll we'll play differently for me yeah but I liked it so it is number 56

[01:39:32] in box office mojo's pop star debuts jeez category okay number one number one the bodyguard Austin powers and gold member Oh that makes sense I don't think yeah bodyguards number three okay Dunkirk is number two Harry Styles I still have no idea who he is in that movie

[01:39:50] but I don't know what Harry Styles looks like and they all look the exact same so yeah he's got good hair this movie or he's got this movie open number 50 on November 26 1999 a weekend in which $64,000 on 11 screens and I know it's not great I know it's number

[01:40:11] one at the box office yeah go ahead Toy Story 2 yeah a weekend that shall have a live and infamy yeah it's in its second weekends it has made $80 million which is very impressive yeah so good for Toy Story 2 great for Toy Story 2 sure your favorite movie

[01:40:30] at the time that was like kind of the one of the biggest opening weekends ever I mean it was a five day sure right but it it blew the doors off Hollywood number 2 this is we're playing the box office getting Peter number 2 is a bond movie

[01:40:45] I don't know the world is not enough there you go yeah yeah is that the one where Christmas in Turkey never had Christmas in Turkey yes I thought Christmas came early this year Christmas Jones is that her name yes Dr. Christmas Jones she's a nuclear scientist came early

[01:41:00] get out of here rest that movie that's also the one where M watches bond fuck Christmas on a heat cam like she's like you know you know Q is like this is a heat camera we can look at the heat signatures and then like there's like what's that

[01:41:14] reading over there and then you see them boning down you know I was just remembering with a few people the other week that like there was the Madonna video for dying other day which features her being tortured in a North Korean prison yes like that was a object

[01:41:28] of media that like historians will be looking at sure 100 years in the movie in which she fences bond because contractually she wouldn't do the song unless she was allowed to fight bond in the movie yeah she plays yeah she's got some puns I think as well and movies

[01:41:42] the world is not enough it's better than dying of the day it's got Robert Carlyle in it he's the villain he's got like a bullet in his head the fight at the Russian sub it's like it's like the first half is the Sophie Marceau stuff right she's kind

[01:41:56] of the real villain I've never seen that one oh it's weird it's not very good but it has this like edge of darkness to it where Brosnan shoots Sophie Marceau and cold blood okay and you're kind of like oh who directed it Michael Afted I think

[01:42:11] no I think he did tomorrow never died no Michael Afted but Roger Spottis would really whatever did tomorrow never died Roger Spottis would yeah okay all right number three is Toy Story 2 no number three is a hell movie to be number one number three the box office

[01:42:25] from hell not from hell it's a hell movie yeah it's like an apocalyptic hell demon movie oh oh oh end of days end of days Arnold Schwarzenegger and Gabriel Byrne yeah it's a Peter Himes movie the director of Running Scared Running Scared which we cover

[01:42:43] father of Joe Himes mm-hmm yeah I wonder if he shot it like he likes to shoot his movies I think so let's find out I'm not going to rest until I know that information come on Wi-Fi you can do it yes he did he shot it number four

[01:42:57] the box office yeah okay fine it's a Toy Story 2 no it's a movie hmm how do you describe this movie it's based on a famous American short story like a toy story no is it the second toy story be quiet be quiet it was a big hit

[01:43:14] it's like a gothic horror movie period sleepy hollow and it's second weekend 18 million dollars like big hit big hit yeah Tim Burton John Depp our rated picture that was John Depp's first $100 million movie which is weird to think about the emergence of him

[01:43:32] a full stop lockbuster up until that point and then number five is a movie I think we just discussed or might have been on a future episode because I can't remember how the chronology lines up it's the first film in a long series of animated films 1999

[01:43:48] we were discussing this the other day on Mike yeah I think so so we were discussing one of the later entries yeah number three I think how many are there in total it's like so many but only three got American releases oh it is Pokemon the first movie

[01:44:04] can you tell me how much is Mewtwo can you tell me how much that made in America 86 85 that was my birthday movie that year all my buddies went to go watch Pokemon the first movie in theaters for my birthday do you have a good time I think so

[01:44:17] I saw it our better one was when we pulled out the VHS swordfish though the next year for various reasons yep two reasons two particular I got those two reasons for you Q and Jackman two reasons why other movies he got the bone collector

[01:44:37] which apparently there was some bone collecting going on with you guys okay stop it you got dogma Kevin Smith's anarchic biblical which boy could 11 year old Griffin tell you how smart that movie was could 11 year old Griffin be more wrong

[01:44:52] boy could 29 year old Griffin beat the shit out of 11 year old Griffin probably even sick Griffin yeah a hundred percent we got the insider we got being John Malkovich you got the sixth sense American beauty the big movies of 99 and all the way down at number 50 right above

[01:45:09] extreme in IMAX which is in its 35th week and right below the wonderful American movie the documentary what is doing the Oscars this year like it's American beauty American beauty six cents green mile what else is in there being John Malkovich director what's the cider house rules

[01:45:29] like it's like kind of a great year for American movies but almost none of them actually get the Oscars yeah but I'm wondering like what is I mean you look at this and you say like I get

[01:45:40] I get why people who watch the film were not maybe the most excited about it but you don't know why did the audience is just like not show I think it's some mix of like the reviews weren't strong enough

[01:45:52] and this was like the subject matter is so naughty and confusing it's about like these like ostensibly villainous people and it's not a movie that really varnishes that so it's sort of like it is kind of about these villainous people

[01:46:06] but this was also the two year run of like USA films yeah there was a USA film which of course will turn into focus features right and they had some success but they were better at edgy than they were at prestige

[01:46:18] right because they had traffic the next year they did well for them Gosford Park is kind the outlier but it was all the question is who's this being sold to who's your audience I don't think they knew how to sell

[01:46:28] this young cute cast but you know I don't think the teens are going to come out for Civil War movie no and jewel was like a big star but she also wasn't someone who had like a rabid fan base like she didn't have believers

[01:46:40] yeah she didn't have jewelers maybe she did maybe she then Julie's Julie's anyway didn't work out for it platform they call them Jews yeah they called them Jews they platform it as you said it's biggest release was 60 screen yeah I mean that's it's an insane gross

[01:46:57] yeah and what's crazy is you go like man imagine someone like Ang Lee having a film at that budget level that makes less than a million dollars and then he does it again later in this mini series

[01:47:08] you know what they should have done because of jewel being in the movie is they should have had it at a bunch of drive-throughs you know car yeah lived in one what they should have done actually that's amazing we've already talked about jewel on this podcast

[01:47:21] Ben rather than show the movie a bit show rather than show the movie a drive-through is they should have taken a screen from car to car the cars should have stayed parked right and they moved the

[01:47:32] screen over to where those do you have anything you want to add Peter cars were partially down by the world on no I mean I think I've gotten all my points you know I guess by the time the film is getting released they've already shot Crouching Tiger

[01:47:44] yes yes because that was a long shoot so they might know that like okay at least when this doesn't work well I mean Crouching Tiger still like that how does that make 100 million exactly I don't think they're thinking like luckily we have our bankable chow yung fat

[01:47:57] period martial arts movie coming yeah I think his thought is maybe well if I get like ran out of the west I can go back to making films in the east I think that's maybe his line of thinking I don't think

[01:48:08] he thinks that Crouching Tiger is going to rehabilitate his standing in the American I mean his his arc from here like Crouching Tiger Hulk is down for Matt you know broke back is a hit and then lost caution

[01:48:20] like it's like the weirdest chart I'll repeat this James Sheamus tells us if you listen to the outtake at the end of the Cinephile X you know so they pitch so James Sheamus is where you know they've pitched the Hulk to Universal and they're

[01:48:35] totally like the idea of 50s monster movie right that we're going to just go back and do like invisible man essentially all over with all this Freudian stuff and they're totally into it and James Sheamus goes to go see his buddy Toby in Spider-Man opening

[01:48:48] weekend opening weekend goes to the theater gets out calls and he says we're totally fucked we are fucked royally with what we're doing with this movie but we can't stop it's a genre now and they have expectations of what it's going to

[01:49:02] be right you can't do like a weird metaphorical take on a superhero because he just need to do a superhero movie in May 2002 and with Spider-Man on a flagpole next to the American flag as Chad Kroger's hero started playing and America was like

[01:49:17] here's like huh and Hulk's going to be basically perceived as the follow up to this right yeah great right yeah and it's a movie about how fathers ruin their children good movie

[01:49:29] we're going to talk about it American masterpiece Peter thank you so much for being on the show oh it's absolutely a pleasure thank you guys so much for inviting me it's an affiliate people should check it out and look for my book on

[01:49:39] the history of entertainment law in about like five to seven years I'm on the work on it it's gonna be great you're gonna rethink the new Hollywood it's all it's a kind of about the birth of blank checks

[01:49:49] hey it could also help me figure out how to negotiate my contracts better because I have to be making more than five dollars a basement always get the gross never the net yeah oh yeah that's the deal well folks thank you all for listening

[01:50:03] next week is crouching tiger hidden dragon right David early David early David hello for me we will back in time and tell us your future future past days of future yes and he's also coming back for days of future

[01:50:19] past we're doing a Brian singham in a series it feels like the right time ladies and gentlemen thank you all for listening please remember to rate review subscribe I should mention we're doing toe back before saying absolutely thanks to answer your most tobacco in many series

[01:50:33] most tobacco in many series and for good for social media layman carmine Joe Bowen and as always or we let me go to comfort some real nerdy shit and as always ski ski ski great alright alright