[00:00:01] Blank Check with Griffin and David, Blank Check with Griffin and David Don't know what to say or to expect All you need to know is that the name of the show is Blank Check
[00:00:32] I feel like I every time I go it can't be that hard I just clench my jaw right and I'll sound like Michael Douglas Yeah Doesn't work I definitely do not have a Douglas I would not know where to begin with a Douglas
[00:00:46] No, I get to is he CNN or what he's one of the news channels now right? He's not CNN surely isn't CNN James Earl Jones or did they change it? NBC nightly knows I think Really he is you're right I had no idea
[00:01:01] Yes Michael Douglas is the voice of the NBC nightly knows They're right Yeah cool It's just weird because every time they will start a NBC news broadcast You know previously with that Bastion of Honesty and integrity Brian Williams
[00:01:17] It'd be very weird to have an intro by the man who was most known for being a horned up sleaze bag in 90s erotic thrillers Guys I can't stop fucking I'm Michael Douglas welcome to the news
[00:01:30] Is this one of his most like ostensibly charming like you know leading man roles and even in this he's kind of Kind of a kind of a kind of scummy That's what's wild about this is like this was sort of his breakthrough as a movie star
[00:01:46] He's playing like a charming cad and then after this he just becomes like the the American id of the 80s and 90s He just becomes like everyone's like coked up nightmare of like what if I just gave in to all of my worst desires
[00:02:01] I forgot the American president where he's playing like a very idealized and like lovely figure I forgot that he does eventually Yeah right he does eventually start to do sweeter but like yeah Posts He's kind of planting the seeds here though isn't he I mean totally
[00:02:18] First into Kathleen Turner's crotch is kind of you know planting a flag This feels like him figuring it out he's like go further more of this I was way too tame Wall Street black rain war the roses basic instinct falling down disclosure that's like his run after this
[00:02:37] Right like now American president is him being like I gotta take my foot off the get like you know come on Because after this he just is like I know exactly who I am as a movie star and I'm gonna ride this all the way to the bank
[00:02:48] And America was like we love it despite the fact that he almost always plays someone unlikable It's he has a wild career and we talked about this when we did basic instinct
[00:02:57] But he's he's kind of anomalous in a bunch of ways, but we'll we'll dig into this more I feel like there's a lot of interest in career context in this movie Which is one of the things we like to talk about because we are hashtag the two friends
[00:03:10] We are connoisseurs of context and this is a podcast called blank check with Griffin and David I'm Griffin I'm David And I love it. I love it David. I frankly love it You love romancing the stone or you love the podcast
[00:03:25] Oh the podcast I love that you're David I'm being positive Oh yeah I love that you're David That's great I love that you love that I'm David I love that you're Griffin Well that means the world to me
[00:03:36] And this is a mini series it's a podcast I'm sorry it's a podcast about Filmographies directors who have massive success early on in their careers Giving a series of blank checks make whatever crazy passion projects they want Sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce baby
[00:03:49] It's a mini series on the films of Robert Zemeckis It's called podcast away despite many people begging for it to be called Podcasting, podpodmancing the cast That's the thing that people wanted Okay I mean no podcast away is what it's called
[00:04:05] You didn't hear how well it rolled off my tongue podmancing the cast Yeah get out of here People want to hear that for 22 consecutive weeks But this is kind of what we like to call the guarantor
[00:04:19] Sometimes you get a movie and a career that gives them the turnkey that lets them do what they want to do And this is like a guarantor and then he follows this up with a double guarantor
[00:04:30] That essentially leaves him open to make whatever he wants for the rest of time Zemeckis is in this rarefied air I feel like we've covered a couple other people like this Like, you know, Lucas Spielberg Nolan where it's like
[00:04:43] Guess what? You get to make whatever you want for the rest of time You did it enough times that you can have seven flops in a row and we'll still go like But what if this one's another back to the future
[00:04:55] Like every time Hollywood's like but it might be It might be Yeah maybe he should like adapt the documentary about the mentally ill guy The soldier figurines and that'll be a Christmas hit What an incredible thing to look forward to
[00:05:13] But joining us on the show is very exciting We have two friends who also host a movie podcast Hey Hey guys What am I seeing? Double here? Six male friend movie podcast hosts? No It's only four Ladies and gentlemen joining us from the film spotting podcast
[00:05:35] The long running legendary film spotting podcast Adam Campanar, Josh Larson Live from Chicago, how are you guys doing? Doing great Thanks for having us on This will be fun I'm really looking forward to this I was saying to Adam when we were recording earlier today
[00:05:50] We made it through Tenet We made it through I'm thinking of ending things And then I got to sit down after both of those And just enjoy romancing the stone So came at just the right time Romantic the stone is an abresier watch than either of those movies
[00:06:04] Slightly Slightly Yeah I'll say this We do, and this is, I'll say this I'll say this about me saying I'll say this I say I'll say this too much But here's the thing I want to say We do a March Madness competition every year
[00:06:19] That I will admit fully ripped off from you guys That was the idea of just like Oh, you can do March Madness with things that aren't sports And the way that you guys did it And involved your fan base Now excited people got over it Inspired me
[00:06:33] I went to David I said here's my idea We do that But we add the stakes of Whoever wins our March Madness competition We cover So it's like we're handing too much control Over to our listeners And saying like Here's 32 directors in a bracket
[00:06:50] You pick who we're going to cover A couple months from now And Zemeckis is the guy who was picked In March When the world was going upside down When no one knew how long this was going to last
[00:07:01] If it was just going to be two weeks staying at home I'm pretty grateful that Zemeckis won Like looking back at some of the other people Who were on the bracket Some of them might be a slog To talk about now In an alternate reality, you know
[00:07:14] And much like you guys talking about Like watching her man sing the stone Being a nice light thing I did feel that appreciation When I was watching this the other night Of like I'm glad this is what I have to watch Yeah, it was fun
[00:07:26] I wish I was doing this deep dive That you guys are doing Because he's someone I instinctually defend But I haven't gone back and rewatched a lot of stuff Beyond the things I watched a million times as a kid So a lot of my affection for him
[00:07:38] Is born out of my childhood experience with him And that carried over Even to things like what lies beneath Which I think I love more than almost anyone But I don't know if a lot of that stuff Would hold up on a revisit
[00:07:51] So yeah, listening along will be fun And I'll be a little bit jealous That you guys get to do this Yeah, I mean, well three movies in I'll say so far so good For Bobby Z, obviously He comes out of the gate strong
[00:08:06] Right, we haven't gotten to the difficult movies yet But like, you know I want to hold your hand to use cars Like these are not movies people watch a lot These are not movies that are in the public lexicon
[00:08:17] And I had a great time with both of them Yeah, have either of you guys rewatched Either of those films at any point In the last ten years or so? Very sadly, both are blind spots for me I have a lot of Zemeckis blind spots
[00:08:31] And really do, so maybe I should just get off the zoom right now No, no, no, no I was similar to you I was similar to you Yeah I hadn't seen either I think maybe I saw you use cars Sort of like half-watched on cable
[00:08:43] I want to hold your hand I'd certainly never seen And they're both such wonderful movies Yeah, I've got about five Zemeckis blind spots And those are two of them So yeah, for me it started with Romancing the Stone Probably at the time of its release
[00:08:58] You know, I probably did see that in theaters When it first came out And you know, we'll get into it I'm sure, but given my love already At that time, four Raiders And Indiana Jones in general I was all on board And then, you know
[00:09:12] As you were saying, David To then do back to the future And you know, to make a masterpiece At that point is It just, it was great for me at that age When I saw it then And then that's one that just holds up Absolutely
[00:09:27] I saw there was a quote from A Paul Schrader interview That was circulating on Twitter The other night about this idea That like critics will buy stock In a filmmaker Like when they feel like They sort of discovered someone When a director, a young director
[00:09:48] Has their turnkey movie And it feels like, oh I'm calling it now This is a filmmaker who's going to stick around That they sort of buy stock in that person And then for the rest of your life You're sort of trying to defend Your purchase of that stock
[00:10:03] So when they have a hit That everyone agrees upon You're just like, I'm in the money Let me laugh all the way to the bank And when they don't You really got to try to like Fight your hardest to find well
[00:10:11] But if you look at it through this prism It's interesting and this and that And Zemeckis I think is very much One of those guys where like He was so undeniably strong at the beginning That I don't think it's exclusive
[00:10:25] To you guys, I feel like we feel this way I feel like a lot of people feel this way And it's one of the reasons why He keeps on getting the chance To make whatever he wants Is people are just like There has to be like
[00:10:35] That same guy still there Who can bat at that level, right? Yeah, you don't want to give up on him And I think that happens a couple of ways It happens nostalgically So that's the Zemeckis case for me, right? But it can also happen, Adam
[00:10:49] I think, I don't know if you have this But I feel like sometimes I have this With our Golden Brick winners So an award we give every year Is to an up-and-coming filmmaker Who's made maybe their second film Unknown to us But we're just really impressed
[00:11:04] With the emerging talent And so we'll give them this award And then we're buying stock, right? So it's very hard Every film that that filmmaker makes Going forward And this has been an award How many years now, Adam? 12, 13 I mean, it was Within the first couple of years
[00:11:21] To this show So a lot of these early winners I feel like we still have stock in And you're rooting... Are we rooting for them a little bit extra When they have a new film come out? Absolutely I'll admit it Right, and the namesake of that award
[00:11:34] On your show is Brick And Ryan Johnson Who totally panned out In the way that you guys like Sort of called he would, you know? Yeah But yeah It doesn't work out that way every time You want them to sort of Constantly be there
[00:11:49] And if someone like Zemeckis Comes out of the gate And it like Pretty much the first like Six or seven are all really strong It's hard to ever Totally divest yourself of that Stock you Well, the other... He... I mean we'll talk about this As we go forward
[00:12:07] But like If you're a Spielberg or whatever Like Spielberg shifts from like Being the, you know The reinventing genre movies Into blockbuster movies Into like Turning into a prestige director Hunting for an Oscar Into like sort of the post-Schindler's List stuff that we covered Where it's like
[00:12:24] You know more darker tinge movies Like, you know Like he shifts Like I feel like Zemeckis Struggled with the shift Post-Forest Gump We'll talk... And I like a lot of those movies Post-Forest Gump I do too Yeah, but like he... It does kind of feel like the Oscar
[00:12:40] Broke him in a weird way I don't know The shifts are weird And it's also this thing We've talked about where he's this weird case And Jonathan Demi who we covered last year As our March Madness winners Another case of this Where it's like
[00:12:54] A guy who has this major Massive cultural defining Blockbuster box office hit That also sweeps the Oscars Is seen as the most oscar-y movie They get pegged as an oscar-y director And they literally never get An Oscar nomination ever again You know, it's like...
[00:13:11] Zemeckis' Oscar career is pretty much Done after Forest Gump Even though I feel like he's thought Of an oscar-y filmmaker And every time he has a new movie People question that But he's also not really making Major box office plays Blockbuster plays in the way that he
[00:13:26] Used to It doesn't feel like he's Trying to be as populist as he used to He is in kind of a weird Space in the second half of his career Where do you guys think Maybe you'll get into this But where do you feel he stands
[00:13:40] Right now when people talk about I suppose bankable directors But also great directors Because he's a name that I don't Feel like comes up A whole lot And in fact, Josh referenced The new Charlie Kaufman movie I'm thinking of ending things Which if you've seen it
[00:13:58] Have you guys talked about this at all? How it openly references... Well I don't think... It does have a Zemeckis zinger This movie But apparently that was run by Zemeckis Interesting Yeah, right Because it's a total shot Is how I took it
[00:14:15] It's hard not to see it that way Which if he was on board with it Then the guy's got a great sense of humor Respect to Zemeckis for agreeing To be Razed I think Kaufman Was originally going to work with him I think Chaos Walking
[00:14:32] Was originally as a Zemeckis project And Kaufman wrote At least in early... You know, he worked on that movie And so maybe they had... Maybe that's part of it They had some connection But it's interesting Because in the movie He's kind of being mocked as a
[00:14:50] What you're talking about Griffin An oscarie guy Yeah Like whatever A maker of formulaic Hollywood Pap Which is not really... Like romantic comedy hack Yeah, which is not really what Zemeckis is now Now Zemeckis is sort of like He's this guy who takes a lot of money
[00:15:09] From studios to make very Strange passion projects That are presented commercially But are clearly uncommercial You know, like, you know The walk, allied, Walk into Marwin I mean, Allied is a little more conventional But you know what I mean? It's conventional for a movie From the 1950s
[00:15:28] Like it's conventional In a near pastiche kind of way Which I love Allied And we will get to that episode In which you and I fight about Allied But like Allied's the most conventional Of those three And yet it's very, I think, Pointedly trying to like
[00:15:43] Represent a very out-of-vogue Style of film Yeah, that's him being like Hey Hollywood, why don't you Make this kind of movie? Everything he's done, you know Really almost sends what? Cast away when you hear Even the idea, maybe not flight
[00:15:59] But you kind of cock your head a little bit It's like what? Zemeckis is doing that? Yeah, but it's got no point With those people and that style? Yeah, Beowulf, Polar Express Right When he does flight You're like Is there something else with this movie?
[00:16:14] Because this almost seems too conventional for him A little straightforward You're telling me he just like Made a movie with a movie star That's like pretty good And is gonna get some Oscar nominations Like I don't understand Like what did Zemeckis see in this?
[00:16:28] No, it's also like flight is Even more bizarre because It comes out of Ten years of him committing himself Exclusively to one Technical breakthrough, essentially Like that's the other bizarre thing with him Where it's just like At not his peak but at a very high point
[00:16:49] In his career coming off of What lies beneath and cast away Which are both big hits He just doubles down and goes like Here's a big shift I'm only about motion capture And I feel like in those days Was talking as if he might only
[00:17:02] Make motion capture movies for the rest of his career I mean it felt like When flight was announced Not only did it seem like a weird match For him in terms of material But it also was like Oh wow, he's actually gonna make A live action movie again
[00:17:15] Yeah And not only that But it's an R rated movie Which he's only done one other time In his entire career He's odd Wait, is what lies beneath PG-13? Did he sneak that? I think it is I believe used cars and flight Yeah, it is PG-13
[00:17:33] Only two R rated movies he's ever made It is, it is What lies beneath is the closest Where you're like That's barely a PG-13 That's sort of like on the line Yeah Well and he's Cause he's doing Hitchcock there right
[00:17:45] So I don't think he'd want to go graphic Because it's all the insinuation Yeah But I mean To get back to your question Adam I feel like he was You guys have talked about this On your show many times But the sort of weird
[00:18:03] Tail on the cultural response To Forrest Gump And how wildly that has changed You know over the years And I feel like The perception of that movie Becomes more and more negative Every passing year And then it gets Sort of associated with like
[00:18:21] Oh people who like Forrest Gump That's Tricol, that's Comfort Food That's for like Saps and Sentimentalist You know the kind of like dismissive way That the Kaufman movie might frame him So it's like that's his biggest movie At box office His Oscar winner all of that
[00:18:38] He still has that shine When he's making his next couple of films Contact with Lies Beneath Cast away but I feel like Shortly after that When he's going into motion capture land Maybe more heightened circles Of film criticism and appreciation Are starting to really sour on him Retroactively
[00:18:57] I think in a way that also happened To Spielberg Where it's just like Oh Spielberg, it's all the pap It's all this, it's small see It's whatever And he moves into this Really weird area I don't feel like there was a lot Of excitement around him
[00:19:11] When he started doing live action again And he felt like the kind of guy Where we were like Coin toss onto whether We should even include him On a March Madness bracket Whether or not he'd have any supporters And it was very bizarre as we watched
[00:19:27] The arc of voting over the weeks That he was being treated like he was this like Outsider pick Like people were really into him Because our previous two winners Were Nancy Meyers and Jonathan Demi Who were both big filmmakers Well, slightly off from the types
[00:19:43] Of filmmakers we cover We hadn't covered someone who worked That much in romantic comedies before At that sort of studio level Demi is so eccentric And what he does His career is so spread out And Zemeckis was being treated the same kind
[00:19:59] Of way when we'd see people tweeting about him And I think Marwyn Is almost the one that shifted it Not in a positive way But people were just like There's so much weird stuff going on With this movie That maybe it's time we reckon with Robert Zemeckis
[00:20:14] Again, because it's very clear this guy is never boring Even when he's bad He's never boring He's at such a high level of technical proficiency And you still totally can't figure out What's going on in his head Well, he hasn't gotten stale He's somewhat been forgotten It's weird
[00:20:36] He's been forgotten despite the fact that He hasn't really gotten stale But it's almost like his weirdness has And I haven't seen all of those I didn't even see Welcome to Marwyn I think the last one I saw was Allied
[00:20:48] Which for the record I liked quite a bit But yeah, now it's kind of Like we've just set him aside He's too weird but not in an Artistically interesting way I think it has to do with the technology You know, he's too invested In the technology
[00:21:04] That scene still as in a separate category Than artistry even though it shouldn't be And so he's just not It's like we don't really have to Russell with him He's a boomer This is the forest gun thing He got tagged as King Boomer And
[00:21:22] It's funny to think about Obviously because Something like Welcome to Marwyn It's not like you can watch that and be like Oh, these boomers always They're always foot fetishists who have Action figure communities That play out psychodromas in their head You guys gotta get Welcome to Marwyn
[00:21:40] As a deciding element I highly recommend Welcome to Marwyn It is It is unlike anything else Seeing the doc isn't enough I can't just claim that I've seen the doc Doc's one of my favorite movies the last 20 years The doc is good enough You must be welcomed
[00:21:58] Welcome to Marwyn is a whole other thing Don't you think that part of it Is, and I think I'm guilty of it I'm guilty of it We probably don't see him Through a notourist lens Because of that technical proficiency Because of the way he works
[00:22:16] In so many different styles Unlike so many other filmmakers Christopher Nolan would certainly be one We see those movies We see all the recurring themes And motifs and Stylistic choices And right or wrong we think we know Who Christopher Nolan is As a human being
[00:22:36] And as an artist I have no idea What Robert Zemeckis really cares about Or what keeps him awake at night From the movies I've seen Now I probably have not done I'll admit I've not done a deep enough dive But I think he doesn't easily fit
[00:22:52] Into that sort of a tourist package And so we do overlook him I agree with that I was about to say he stopped writing But he does still write Marwyn on the walk On the Christmas Carol He does still have screenwriting credits He stops writing with Gale
[00:23:10] Who that was so key to his Sensibility at the beginning But I do think yes He's not seen as a notourist But he's also not seen as an anonymous craftsman I agree with you that I think there's something kind of Inscrutable about him
[00:23:26] Even though there are things like His boomer tendencies, his obsession with technology That you can mesh onto But you don't feel like you can totally get him In the same way that Nolan, despite being a guy who doesn't volunteer A lot of information about his personal life
[00:23:40] You watch those movies and you're like I know everything going on in this guy's head Like he's not telling me this But he keeps on coming back To the same four or five things Over and over again they're so clear His sensibilities are so unified
[00:23:54] His movies look the same They sound the same And the zagging of Zemeckis is odd But then he also doesn't feel like This kind of just journeyman He doesn't feel like He's just sort of anonymously latching on to whatever You know, is thrown in front of him
[00:24:10] He's kind of a contradiction In that sense And this movie is interesting because This is his least Personal film Certainly in the first half of his career Right, this is a job Yeah Right, to back up and give a little
[00:24:28] Context which we set up a lot of this In the last two episodes But he and Bob Gale were the wonderkins Out of film school Spielberg meets them when he goes As a lecturing guest speaker For Sugar Land Express So they meet Spielberg right before he becomes Spielberg
[00:24:46] They get in at just the right time He likes their energy and their enthusiasm They have similar reference bases He kind of takes them under his wing And now he's the hottest guy in Hollywood And he says to everyone These two guys are the next big thing
[00:25:00] They're a writing team, this one's the director I'm putting my money on them So he is responsible for getting their first Two movies off the ground I want to hold your hand and use cars And both of them flop They're both well reviewed They're well liked at studios
[00:25:16] They have a good reputation But the movies are flops And they're sort of in like two strikes And they're a big passion project Which they had been working on for a long time Was back to the future They've just been honing that script
[00:25:30] Refining it, refining it, tightening it Wanting to make it And Spielberg says I think this is a great script I'll produce this, I'll try to get this set up for you guys tomorrow And Zemeckis says to him Really a career defining move It shows a lot of
[00:25:46] Foresight for someone who I think was 28 at the time That was the other thing He made his first film when he was like 23 Like he had had this sort of Between those two films he directed in 1941 Which Spielberg directed but he and
[00:26:02] Gale wrote and was a big flop People were like these are just Spielberg's Cronies And Zemeckis said I think if you Produce another film of mine And it flops I'm done I'm completely cooked Shake the reputation That I'm just your friend Who's getting movies made because his buddy
[00:26:24] Is the most successful guy in Hollywood I need to do something on my own I can't do back to the future I can't risk it with one of my personal projects The next halfway Decent script I find I'm taking Because I just need to get something
[00:26:38] That like a studio is Confident about With good people attached And just make it as cleanly as possible I need to get a hit so I can plant my own Two legs as a filmmaker on the ground And that script Was cocoon He spent two years developing cocoon
[00:26:56] And very shortly I think in the later stages Of pre-production They welched They just went like I don't know this guy's got Two flops in a row maybe not He started pushing back with exacting Notes on certain things and they just dropped him
[00:27:12] And they hired Ron Howard who seemed like safer And more controllable So now he's like really down in the dumps He gets the romancing the stone script And he goes yeah sure And as much as he Sort of He explains it as if it was that
[00:27:28] Sort of thoughtless That he was like I read it It was good I said yes I wasn't looking for something to really speak to me I just need a script that felt like this is workable I know how to do this
[00:27:40] I'll go make this I'll get it in on time Which will help me make back to the future And it's such a classic Hollywood story Like Diane Thomas but she's like a waitress She writes the script It's her first script Her agent sells it like immediately
[00:27:54] Every studio immediately is like We want this we have a pair in mind You know like It was just So simple and there's some weird Apocryphal Possibly story that she pitched The story to Michael Douglas when he Was a customer once but maybe that's made up Right
[00:28:14] I was watching the special features Which are not super thorough but there's some good interviews With Douglas in particular Because he was a producer on this too He was so responsible for Willing this movie into existence He didn't mention anything like that
[00:28:28] He made it seem like it was just The hot script around town that everyone Was being sent and that everyone Was bidding on and he Paid the most for it I believe he He bought it from her for $250,000 Which at the time was far and away the most
[00:28:46] Anyone had ever gotten for her first screenplay And everyone treated him like he was A lunatic for spending that much So I guess that all makes me wonder You know I don't think this is a great Zemeckis film And I wonder if that's because
[00:29:00] It's really a Diane Thomas film And you can sense Some of that tension But there's almost two movies going on here A little bit And whatever is personal in romancing the stone I feel like Comes from Thomas Yeah I think that's right I looked up, I wasn't that
[00:29:20] Familiar with her so Actually reading a little bit about her I found a Douglas quote I think this was in the LA Times He said there was a total lack of fear to the writing That's one of the things that attracted him To the screenplay at least
[00:29:34] She studied marketing at USC She went on to study acting Like you guys said this is her first script And it's got a great conceit to it This romance author who gets to live out one of her plots It's got a lot of nice lines in it
[00:29:46] I love the early one With a lot of people get sick In department stores Just kind of throw away character Lines like that And Thomas' story is Is really tragic, she was killed In 85 in a drunk driving accident That her boyfriend was behind the wheel
[00:30:04] So I think at that time She had even, speaking of Spielberg, gone under contract With Ambulance So she was She wrote Always, I mean did she get the final credit On that? She did not She did not She was adapting She was working on Always
[00:30:22] She also supposedly wrote This sort of famed Unknown Indiana Jones script That was set in a haunted house Apparently Spielberg was not into But does sound kind of fun Yeah, that sounds so bad Watched that So obviously Her talent was so Obvious Especially in terms of writing
[00:30:46] This kind of 80s movie that's like Let's take a classic genre For a slightly sexier More grown up spin It totally makes sense that Spielberg Yep, come to the ambulance table We're gonna do movies together Yeah, cause she knows the reference Points, right? She knows all the influences
[00:31:06] That would Turn on the light bulbs for Those guys But I almost, I mean we obviously are going to talk about this As a Zemeckis picture and I think it is in some ways But to me it's like the question Is this a woman's picture
[00:31:20] And by that I mean It's got a female protagonist It's largely about concerns that traditionally Are by to men It's angled I think almost more toward a female audience I mean again as a what 11-12 year old I ate it up But I think it's
[00:31:36] Romance of the Stone is really unique as this sort of Subterranean women's picture In Indiana Jones clothing I agree I think she is ultimately the author of this I think this movie benefits from him Saying like I'm just here to serve this Material because no one
[00:31:52] Has been buying what I'm selling It's like this script So I'm just going to deliver this The best way that I can and it's just him All hands on deck Let me show all my tricks All my smarts just in service of this material
[00:32:06] Rather than trying to put My own fingerprints on it Have you guys seen Jewel of the Nile? Yes, that's since I was a kid So I remember buying A 45 If you were around Griffin when they had the 45s Used to put on your record player
[00:32:26] Of Billy Ocean when the going gets Tough, the theme song from Jewel of the Nile I assume That I watched Jewel of the Nile I have no recollection of it, none But I loved Romance of the Stone so much that I can't Imagine especially loving the
[00:32:40] Hit song from the soundtrack I can't imagine I didn't watch it I watched them back to back, I watched them two consecutive nights I had not seen either before I'd probably seen pieces of Romance of the Stone I'd certainly never seen any of Jewel of the Nile
[00:32:52] Jewel of the Nile really Really Makes Romance of the Stone look good In a lot of ways And sort of around what we're talking about It's like Jewel of the Nile is Making an immediate sequel I mean it comes out like a year and a half
[00:33:10] After the first one, it comes out the next calendar year And You remove Zemeckis And Thomas from the equation And you realize what those two are contributing In their respective fields And that very much doesn't Feel like A woman's picture anymore It does not feel like a
[00:33:30] Female lead film anymore And it's just Sloppy And you're missing the heart of I think Dian Thomas' genuine sort of insight And respect for these characters And you're missing The zip of Zemeckis just knowing How to construct these sort of Rube Goldberg machine sequences so beautifully
[00:33:52] And also just tone And energy and pace It's not a good movie It's hard to be effortless And it's also hard to Recognize the whatever The skill that went into making something Feel pretty effortless Romance in the Stone is a Convoluted movie Like if you sort of say
[00:34:16] The plot out loud it sounds absolutely Ridiculous. It's like, and then They go to meet these scary Gangsters but it turns out They love her book, like all that But in Romance in the Stone it always You're just sort of like, yeah I get it
[00:34:30] I'm fully in the river with this movie I'm locked into the energy of this movie But that's a sort of weird trick to pull Or it's a tough trick, that's Spielberg And that's Zemeckis I think I was undervaluing it On that exact line
[00:34:44] And I know you guys, I had heard of you When we knew we were going to do Zemeckis And we also knew we were going to be locked down for a while So we're reaching out to people in Different cities about guesting via Zoom
[00:34:54] I emailed you guys and I had Remembered you guys talking about Romancing the Stone over the years On the show that both of you had cited As like a movie you watched a lot when you were Young. And I feel like generationally
[00:35:06] It was one of those movies like Midnight Run that like Really kind of exploded On home video and on cable Like I, reading As much as I could about these two movies The last couple of days I see so much of people
[00:35:20] Framing it as like it was a big hit When it came out and then like By two years later it was viewed As something of a modern classic Just because it's a perfect kind Of movie if that's on you're going to sit down
[00:35:32] And watch the rest of it. If you have it on VHS It's an easy rewatch And much like Midnight Run which I remember The first time I saw it having that same thing of That's it. Like this movie is good But people are like religious about this
[00:35:44] I now watch Midnight Run once a year I think it's one of the most perfect movies ever made It's value unfolds The more you watch it and the more You compare it to the movies that break A sweat trying to do The same thing and coming up short
[00:35:58] Yeah, that all checks out For me. I don't remember Unlike you Josh, I don't remember seeing this in the theater Doesn't mean I didn't. It probably would have Come to my small little Iowa Town with my one screen movie theater But I remember it being
[00:36:12] On all the time. Like on HBO Or Cinemax, whatever. We had both Movie channels. It was on all the time And I feel like I watched it All the time. My dad watched it All the time. Which it is odd You think about it now
[00:36:26] It doesn't check out as the type of movie That necessarily a 10 or 11 year old boy Would have been really obsessed with Yes it does as an adventure picture And that element is there. But you're right I don't think I've seen this Since probably 85-86
[00:36:40] This was the first time in that long I did not remember Just how much the movie was Absolutely Kathleen Turner's Movie and absolutely this romantic Comedy. But I do think even then As a grade school kid I wasn't just drawn to The kind of swash
[00:36:58] Buckling aspect of it. But It was the connection between Turner and Douglas They did have something on screen That's undeniably Right? And that's enough It doesn't matter what your gender is What kind of movies you like Or whether something seems sappy or not
[00:37:14] There was a chemistry that made them Really fun to watch on screen And that was certainly I know I bought into it Well I think with Turner too If you, and I talked about this when we've Discussed Raiders Adam If you really gravitated towards Karen Allen
[00:37:30] In Raiders of the Lost Ark And you know Recognize that this was a very Different portrait than the Damsel In Distress adventure movies usually give you Absolutely you're going to also Resonate with Kathleen Turner Here. Not because she's like that the whole way But because you see
[00:37:48] You almost see her becoming Karen Allen In Raiders of the Lost Ark right? As this movie progresses. So there's that Entry Point and I just think for me At that age, you know this Brought Indiana Jones one step Closer to me in terms of reality
[00:38:02] Because Raiders is taking Place in the past right? It's all over in another country But then we watch this and it starts in New York City You know it's with like Someone who's a bestselling author But still like relatively normal Compared to the characters you get in
[00:38:18] Raiders and I was like oh Her life is boring. Like despite the fact that she has A big career that's The brilliant entry point of this movie I mean you were saying to pitches How close could this adventure be to me
[00:38:30] To a boring person it's a lot closer so And I was also surprised Watching it for the first time how much The Douglas character Jack Colton isn't this Kind of Stock archetype Dr. Jones character That he is very much like Somewhat a guy Playing the role you know
[00:38:52] Yes he's kind of 80% full of shit Which I like Right both of these characters This movie fundamentally is about these people Sort of coming up on middle age Feeling kind of unfulfilled in their lives Even though they're ostensibly doing What they want to be doing And I think
[00:39:12] Like even if you feel like well that's a weird Thing for 11 year old boys To relate to so strongly On HBO I do think in a way that no one could Have anticipated It works in a way You're saying Josh Which is well the fact that
[00:39:30] Their lives are boring and that they don't Totally fit in this environment Makes it easier for me to relate to them Than Indiana Jones Who I just know I'm never going to be that cool I'm never going to be that smart I'm never going to be that effortless
[00:39:44] Well just like us Kathleen Turner's life Is all about the fantasy I mean it's the movie we see at the beginning Of the film right it's this movie that she's In her head and that she is putting to paper That's something maybe we couldn't
[00:39:56] Have done or necessarily seen ourselves Doing but we're just like her In terms of watching those types of stories Play out and wanting to insert ourselves Into them just like Indiana Jones And the fantasy of romancing the stone Is if it could happen to her maybe it could
[00:40:10] Happen to me like maybe I'd have a relative Who goes to Columbia and needs my help I could get up on the next thing I know Who's chopped up yeah I mean I'm swinging across a ravine I mean It is I like that her That the opening sequence
[00:40:24] Is a hornier Indiana Jones though Right like that I do like that Like you say The gaze here Is a little different right Like you know what we're sort of Perceiving like Indiana Jones Those movies are not chased But they're more like boys adventures
[00:40:42] Well and here's where we Here's where we get into Zemeckis I think you know dropping the ball A little bit and working against the script That's been given him because There is a lot of leering here Right a lot of leering of Turner
[00:40:56] There's a lot of Turner's legs And that is you know Whatever you make of it independently In this context in the context of the story That Diane Thomas wants to tell That's out of place And you could say maybe it's being set up
[00:41:10] To be turned on its head later When she does start to make her own steps You know which I think happened In the scene at the ravine When he tells her to get behind him And she doesn't she goes to the bridge The rope bridge right
[00:41:24] Things start to turn there But before that we get a pretty leery camera here And it's Yeah it's different than Indiana Jones But I do think there are times where It's butting heads with what the script wants For Joan Wilder She kind of fought with Zemeckis
[00:41:40] Right like I mean obviously Keppling Turner was sort of like a famously Big personality like But like it does sound like Zemeckis was Like kind of trying To force her into those Kinds of like You know sort of splashy poses And you know What you're talking about
[00:42:00] Like you know she was sort of like I want to play a human being over here And Zemeckis he thinks In terms of iconography so much So did he want her to play The woman in the opening fantasy sequence I think he wanted to get there
[00:42:14] More I mean obviously the comedy And the The tension of the movie comes from her Slowly Becoming you know easing into this other Role I think he I mean the quotes I read from her Were her saying like he literally would just
[00:42:30] Tell me to stand in ways that no human Being can stand He is so obsessed with Images he thinks so much visually And the brilliance of oh my god What if this comes into frame and this and that Well is there some Jessica Rabbit going on here too
[00:42:44] Well it sounded like a little bit And he would be like Seeing actors as cattle right Right to some degree I think Perhaps between working With her You know with all of her difficulties And working with Douglas who was both A producer and an actor
[00:43:02] I think this might have been the movie That kind of broke him in to actually Knowing how to direct actors Because I don't hear that complaint Later in his career but here she's like I really had to fight him a lot and explain
[00:43:14] To him like it doesn't make sense For me to stand like this it doesn't matter If the shot looks good and if I'm standing Like this it's impossible for me to act Like it's impossible for me to get The emotions across if I'm Doing this incredibly unnatural position
[00:43:28] Just because for you It like is a fun reference To some sort of cheesecake pose or whatever Well and also you gotta remember like Her filmography at this point is just Body heat and the man with two brains Basically like that's it Like she's still so new
[00:43:44] And obviously in body heat she had landed Is this you know this like Sex symbol of the 80s she's like That's such a crazy star making performance So like I don't I mean She's so good in this movie like In that way though
[00:44:00] You know coming off of those films I think it is interesting that he did Also at the same time While maybe trying to pose her in those ways Allow her to lean so heavily Into the comic aspects of this role
[00:44:12] You know when you especially when you think about The opening part of the film and she's playing You know Ditzy She's you know these aren't Even now these aren't attributes I associate with Kathleen Turner Right now she's we think of her as strong
[00:44:26] And sturdy and in charge low status Yeah and she's Ditzy and Dippy And you know and he Zemeckis Creates the situations for that to be The main characteristic so I think that Works and and yeah I think she does Turner makes this movie because it sounds
[00:44:42] Like you guys are maybe a little higher on Douglas Than I am I think if we like Jack Colton at all and it's debatable How much we're supposed to It's only because of of Turner I mean she makes him interesting it is all about Jones reactions for me
[00:44:56] Not what Douglas is necessarily delivering I think He's good I like him yeah I like I do too it's odd because It feels like this is the One performance of his that Doesn't feel totally Michael Douglas he where he's like Channeling something kind of different
[00:45:16] And then by jewel of the now he's Fully like Gordon gecko mode Like you no longer works in adventure setting Something happened across those 15 months Where suddenly he just like He got more coke in his system He went to more parties whatever It was you just can't buy
[00:45:32] Him as like a rugged outdoorsman He's so sort of yuppie-ish But um Can we agree he shouldn't be dancing That the dancing is I mean it's Worse than Kevin Bacon in Footless Wow Now cut the mic Just cut the mic That was for Adam
[00:45:52] David loves to put bacon on the dish It's one of his favorite things But no I like him in this But I like him because he's scummy like That's what I kind of You know sort of that That's what separates this movie What helps separate this movie
[00:46:08] Because you know if you look at the poster Right if you look you know you're like oh well Yeah this is literally just Indiana Jones And it's It's sort of delightfully not Indiana Jones everyone in it is out for themselves At least initially Like the
[00:46:26] McGuffin is sort of This useless thing All of the stakes of this movie are Weirdly low I know her sister's in trouble Like I do know that there is Something that needs to be done but like Like everyone in this Movie is basically like after Nothing in particular
[00:46:44] The final showdown is great but they're all They're all just like blundering idiots Well what they're after I mean the goal Are her independence right And it's kind of like her embrace Of that independence and I will give Douglas credit Yeah yeah he pulls off you know
[00:47:02] What's the line at the end Something about um You know you've always been You'll be alright Joan You always were you know And I don't know if that is An Ann Thomas line but Douglas pulls it off and I think that's kind of You follow
[00:47:22] And that's what you know At least watching it now as an adult You're most invested in Yeah I would just say I'm going to defend Douglas too I mean there's There's a ruggedness to him There's a cat-ish quality That drew a 10 year old me
[00:47:38] A younger me even to Han Solo I mean of course there are two Indiana Jones But there is a vulnerability There is something to Douglas That suggests he's always In a crisis that you don't get With Harrison Ford He's also a little sad and unfulfilled
[00:47:54] He is yeah I know there's that scene in the plane Where they talk about how he Got to his sort of birding life And it's just sort of like Well I don't know I want to do something exciting You know like I never really found My thing
[00:48:08] Right he kind of just cut corners until he found Like that's exactly right Like his big dream is that he would Buy a boat like That's the top of the mountain to him Like that's as far as he can think That's where the movie starts right
[00:48:22] She wants a man, he wants a boat Do they both become something More than that She gets a man on a boat I do want to say that you bring up The leeryness of the camera And we see it in Douglas Right directly I mean the best
[00:48:38] Shot in this movie is one where You know like her dress is torn And you see that long Kathleen Turner Leg and then they cut to a shot of him Like a medium shot and he actually Licks his lips while he walks
[00:48:50] And is looking at her like it's It is pretty disturbing but what struck Me about it especially based on the beginning And I think this gets at what You were suggesting about the The schism here between it being a Zemeckis Film and a Diane Thomas
[00:49:04] Screenplay and maybe some competition There is what we should actually be seeing What I feel like we should be seeing Is instead Joan Wilder leering at Jack Colton Absolutely That's what this movie really should be That's what the movie actually sets up to be
[00:49:20] She's leering at the posters She's leering at the poster Which I mean let's face it It's almost like well and I read something Just before we started taping that suggested They shot that after they shot the rest of the film And screened it, that opening
[00:49:34] To fill in some story about her But all that did was also throw out The balance a little bit because So mousy as so in need of fulfillment Of fantasy fulfillment The opening is so good I was so immediately hooked And so much that's her performance
[00:49:50] It's so good that then yes Josh The actual trajectory of this movie Is her realizing Her full independence as a woman Realizing that she can take these kind of risks She can be the type of character that's in One of her stories
[00:50:04] And that does to some extent involve Holding out for The man that she thinks she deserves And what's odd to me Is that we see that poster in her apartment That is very clearly Supposed to mimic Be a silhouette of the guy
[00:50:20] We meet later and yet when we meet him For the first time there's no sense There's no Zemeckis doesn't really give us The moment where John Wilder looks at him And goes wow it's him It's maybe the boots Maybe when she sees the boots But then once like
[00:50:36] He's revealed in full The fantasy is shattered Because of how he treats her And how he talks to her But where is that split in her That she's drawn to him physically That he does Even if he isn't the Boy Scout
[00:50:52] That she seems to want on some level As she describes how he should be trustworthy And honest and nice and all those things He still is physically The ideal That she's built up and yet we don't really sense That in her That's the thing I like about Douglas
[00:51:08] In this movie is like Unlike someone like Harrison Ford Who always just deep down Seems like a good guy You know even as something like Han Solo You're like I know he cares He's telling me he doesn't but I know he cared There's something so inherently Scummy
[00:51:26] About Douglas that he cannot beat Out of his system And the fact that he is so modern That he is not this kind of classical Romantic novel hero That he doesn't feel like a classical Adventure hero that he's playing the part well But in a way that feels
[00:51:42] A little empty You know and That he is so immediately Kind of a turn off to her I do think the movie should acknowledge He is a very conventionally attractive And charismatic person at this point in time But you also understand why she would be completely
[00:51:58] Put off by his aura That he's dismissive of her But the fact that he's not very elegant You know There's nothing very poetic about him You know he's got this Like gross sort of A stench to him And the movie also Should be about
[00:52:18] I think it's almost about Her coming to terms with the fact That she writes these very idealized People in these very idealized Circumstances with very neat Endings where love conquers all And you can find the absolute perfect man And there is no such thing
[00:52:34] Like this might be her dream guy But her dream guy isn't a dream He's a complicated person Who has a lot of very irritating And unsavory qualities Yeah I mean there has to be some suspense To whether or not he actually is going to show
[00:52:48] At the end right? If we buy into him too much As this idealized man as a man of virtue Then there really is There at all And with Douglas there's actual suspense It's great that when they're on both sides
[00:53:02] Other sides of the river opposite sides of the river That's just a great That's where that all is set up And visually you know how How Zemeckis stages that And that really That puts the emotional stakes at the forefront I think also the scene at the plane
[00:53:18] We were talking about in the downed plane That's where she does start to turn And see possibilities in him Because he has fulfilled her Vision, the book cover guy It's because exactly what One of you were talking about He's talking about his failures
[00:53:34] You know in the ways that he feels inadequate Then it's a little bit of vulnerability That you know Trumps the scousiness I guess For her and she starts to see him as a possibility Talking about this sort of Leering qualities and how maybe The gaze might be misdirected
[00:53:50] In this movie The third author of this film We have to talk about as such which is Douglas There's the Zemeckis movie which is Let me do a skill piece Let me showcase all of my directing Bervera There's Diane Thomas who has actual things
[00:54:08] She wants to say this is a personal movie Douglas said that she very much was Like this character That she had this kind of energy That this very much felt like A fancy fulfillment of her internal life And that was a major creative force in this movie
[00:54:22] And was a very hands on producer The first thing you see in this movie Is just giant letters Of Michael Douglas production He was an Oscar winning producer That's the thing So is this a bid This isn't a bid for prestige Because he's got that
[00:54:40] So what is this a bid for This is the bid to be a leading man I mean that's the weird thing here In the 70s He was like Tipped for this Leading man status Obviously he's Hollywood royalty And then it doesn't work out
[00:54:58] When you see him in the China syndrome Which is another one he produced And he's good in that movie But he's kind of playing A shaggy hippie type Like he seems almost scared Of this kind of a role The leading role Yeah exactly It's funny but right
[00:55:18] DeVito is like an old butt of his DeVito's in one full with Cuckoo's Nest They've known each other forever Can I fill in a couple of gaps here From the interviews I watched with him DeVito was his roommate out of drama school
[00:55:30] They were living together in New York And both like man I wonder if I'll ever get to be a star And DeVito was like your Kirk Douglas' son Your Kirk Douglas' son I'm 411 and your Kirk Douglas' son
[00:55:40] I don't know if we're going to go for the same arc here Right but DeVito does Martin Bress short film Which got a lot of attention And that sort of put him into circles He was mostly Broadway off Broadway actor
[00:55:56] And then Douglas gets cast on streets of San Francisco DeVito said the thing that proved me That he was a good guy Was once he got cast on streets of San Francisco He kept paying our rent in New York So DeVito lived alone
[00:56:08] But only had to pay half the rent While he was working off Broadway for years But yes like Douglas One floor over those cuckoos And asked was the rights were purchased By Kirk Douglas originally Who then realized he was too old
[00:56:22] To play the character and then gave them to Michael I think Well yeah you're right on the first one I thought that it was kind of That Michael kind of fired him You're correct that he was too old He had done it On stage is that right
[00:56:38] Had been produced on stage Like a lot of I think the cast was From but yes I forget if it's that Michael Douglas Had the balls to fire his dad Or his dad knew He couldn't do it That's sort of the narrative
[00:56:54] I think he did and he was actually A very hands on producer in that movie I think he briefly tried to get it made with himself And no one would go for it He talked about the fact that despite Him playing a very conventional
[00:57:06] Leading man on a hit network TV Show and being the son of a legend Being a handsome charismatic guy There was very much still the TV Ghetto at that point where it was Very hard to cross the bridge From being a TV star which was seen as
[00:57:20] Kind of light entertainment to being a movie star And so people didn't Want to put him in movies he started Producing largely to try To get vehicles made for Himself and by and large People wouldn't finance those movies if he
[00:57:34] Was in them so one flew over the cuckoo's nest He's not in he produces it anyway He wins the Oscar that gives him a lot more Cloud as a producer so then he does China syndrome he puts himself In as the third lead and as David said
[00:57:46] He's kind of the one of the three leads Who doesn't really hit the other two Guys get nominations they're already Legends it makes them only more popular He's fine in it but as you said He's not using his fastball Which is right this is Cinema's greatest adulterer
[00:58:02] This is a cad this is the guy Who can't help but root for even though He's only sort of representing Our basic instincts Our most basic instincts if you will And so this was sort of The same thing where at this point He's feeling a little defeated
[00:58:18] Maybe I can't make it as a star Maybe I'm more of a producer You know acquires This script doesn't want to play the part Goes out to a bunch of other people Everyone turns it down People say to him why aren't you playing You bought the script
[00:58:34] You have production companies spent $250,000 to the script why wouldn't you play this And he went oh you're right it's a good part I now have the cache to get myself cast I'll just do it and this is the thing That finally made him a star And much like
[00:58:48] Kathleen Turner the rest of the 80s For her are incredible And then in the 90s she sort of hits a wall And Douglas it's like everything after This is a hit like he has a run For the next 15 years after this movie And it's like a hack
[00:59:02] It just solidifies it So for him I think He went into it mostly as a producer I want to make a hit I want to further bolster my career As someone who can get movies made And I think he only took the lead role
[00:59:16] Out of you know a little bit Of selfish interest and getting to play Something good that no one would cast him in otherwise But mostly I think as a functionary Of I know I can do this And I just want quality control
[00:59:28] Over the film I'll get it made I think after this he starts producing A lot less and his persona is defined But they talk so much about the fact that He's the one who acquired the script Not a studio, he brought it to Fox
[00:59:42] He's the one who hired Zemeckis Even though the last two films were flops Because he thought he was a good director I think everyone was kind of answering to him To a degree and It sounds like he was very much The one managing like the tension Between
[00:59:58] Kathleen Turner and Zemeckis And everybody, he was sort of mediating everything And I think the times where the movie gets Misaligned in terms of objectifying Her rather than objectifying him I kind of feel like it's His influence I feel like it's the Michael Douglas
[01:00:14] That fully comes out after this movie That is just all sexual drive You know? Yeah if you're looking at what he goes on to do Compared to what Zemeckis goes on to do He's just pointing to him about the leering For sure, that makes a lot of sense
[01:00:28] But it's a very canny choice For him to take on this role In retrospect and Maybe it's the way he plays it Maybe it's the way the character is in the script But as we've said already This isn't the straightforward Indiana Jones He is a little sleazier
[01:00:44] But he also is willing to be deflated Right? And so you think of the moment where He jumps in the car He's gonna hotwire it because he knows how to hotwire a car He's like, use the keys So already it's kind of like He's kind of a boob
[01:00:58] In that moment And yet at the same time There are many instances of deflation He's really canny in the climax Because she saves herself Right? From the guy Who gets his hand chomped off By the alligator She's left to fight him one on one And saves herself
[01:01:20] That Douglas makes the choice To save her To try and save her rather than go after the jewel So he gets the moral credit Eventually He blows it a couple of times and then figures it out But in that moment By letting the alligator go
[01:01:36] Yet she gets the credit for saving Herself And then when he catches up to her He gets that moment I talked about Where he affirms her independence So it's like you don't need me To be a canny way to position himself As Kind of a sleazy guy
[01:01:54] But at the end also kind of an upright guy And that probably got him some Cache in terms of what he could be Cast in moving forward If I can float a theory I think there's Especially if you're thinking in 1980 What is this? 84? 83? This is 84 Like
[01:02:16] He looks so much like Kirk Douglas There's a whole generation now that probably doesn't More than a generation Two generations probably, they don't even think about that But at the time When he's popping up on screen You're not that far from Kirk Douglas' Superstardom So like
[01:02:32] It kind of cuts both ways When he shows up you're like Well there's Michael Dunn That's a movie star face But I think what works about this role for him And what is helping him is that He's like yeah but I'm kind of a schmuck
[01:02:46] I'm the kid, like I'm the one who's still figuring it out And that's maybe what makes this endearing In a way that the other stuff hadn't been He's got to earn his own way I mean that's kind of like
[01:02:58] You know I'm going to earn my own way in this movie As this character Just as I'm trying to earn my own way in Hollywood Right and he's able to sort of Like He's in a very, very Lucky position Where he has at his disposal
[01:03:14] The ability to essentially Parody his genealogy And his legacy Like his very presence in a movie Is mocking a kind of Model of classical Male movie stardom Because like Kirk Douglas was Mr. Prestige Mr. Epic, you know This amazing like masculine Movie star like profile
[01:03:36] He was tough and scary He played bastards Like he played like kind of Just kind of the dark star of his time Right and I feel like Before this Michael Douglas Is trying to be like A conventionally likeable Movie star, a conventionally Sympathetic leading man
[01:03:56] And this movie gives him the gift Of realizing oh people like it When I'm kind of a shit Like people weirdly root for me I just always think about the story Was in some like you know Hollywood In the 80's documentary or whatever Talking about sitting next
[01:04:12] Some as studio executive or filmmakers Talking next to Michael Douglas At a screening of fatal Attraction and there's like You know a scene where He's with gun close and then he leaves And then he goes and gets in bed with his real wife
[01:04:26] In a very short period of time And whoever it was just turns to him At the screening goes it's unbelievable Like they just saw you cheating On your wife and the audience is with you You could feel it in the audience That they were just like
[01:04:40] Why are they rooting for you Like this person turned to him and said this at a test screening But he does just have that weird magic Where I understand if your dad was like Spartacus You might have the vanity of saying
[01:04:52] I don't want to be that kind of anti-hero I don't want to be a scumbag I don't want to be weak I don't want to be pathetic But then this movie within a comedic context Shows how innately Well he plays there
[01:05:06] In that zone and I think he just runs with it He's like I get it, I know who I am on screen now Yeah, I mean if he is Our id that means we do still We see ourselves in him We can relate to him In a way
[01:05:22] If you think about Gecko Maybe is one of these roles that follow this That's an aspirational type of character The idea and the whole point of the film Is Bud Fox thinks he can become Gordon Gecko And then the question is Do you really want to be him
[01:05:36] But all those other characters that have been mentioned I mean fatal attraction Disclosure isn't the whole point that we go Okay, that could be us I could maybe be If I was maybe just a little bit As good looking as him And you know whatever
[01:05:52] Could I get away with it? Yeah, right that's the CD thing That he taps into in our psychology And I think for women it was like I know I shouldn't But there's something appealing about this guy Like there's just that weird dangerous edge To him
[01:06:08] That this movie uses really well I think it accidentally Isolates his Key movie star quality For him But he talks so much About all the decisions he was making Weren't made in sort of movie star vanity They were in the vanity of
[01:06:26] I want to have a hit movie I want to hit Michael Douglas production I could then get other things greenlit I don't even think Him being able to use that juice as a leading man Was at the forefront of his mind
[01:06:38] And then putting DeVito in it was like Oh, here's my buddy He's now on taxi I want to help him make that TV to movies Leap And it's another weird one where it's like Watching This and Jewel of the Nile back to back
[01:06:54] It is wild how it's like Jewel of the Nile He's so much like He's like a name over the poster He's in it almost as much as the two of them He becomes an equal lead Like it was just so clear that like
[01:07:08] America can't get enough of DeVito I couldn't get enough at 11 I thought it was the funniest thing In this movie So this watching this movie It's an example of where like I realize how many times I watch it as a kid
[01:07:22] Because you start to like predict the lines And predict the beats And then you're like down that hill shooting Backwards like over the years Like I just ate that up as a kid It was the funniest thing I'd ever seen It's also crazy that there are three movies
[01:07:36] Where the above the title Billing is Michael Douglas Kathleen Turner, Danny DeVito And you know two of them are These two movies so that makes sense But then they're just like Let's do it all again guys For a completely unrelated movie And DeVito's directing now
[01:07:54] Well it speaks to the chemistry that Adam was talking about That Douglas and Turner do have And I think you know We've talked about the references here Indiana Jones being the most obvious But you could even look at It happened one night right
[01:08:10] The Frank Capra road trip screwball comedy Clark Gable, Claudette Colbert I mean it's not in that league at all But you can see like maybe that's What they're going for And there are exchanges between And they're like You know they do have that repartee
[01:08:26] So you could see why they would continue to work together There's that very classical Sort of oil and water Dynamic here where you're just like How could these two people possibly end up together By the end of this movie Which is very you know It happens one night
[01:08:42] I mean when they talk about the feeding frenzy That the script caused when it went out on the market It was like everyone went Oh my god she's kind of created a new Subgenre like she's put a couple things together That no one's ever synthesized before
[01:08:55] And they talk so much I mean you're talking about The moments where it gets sort of overly crude and sexual They're talking about how Unconventional this movie seemed At the time when The main source of comedy was still In the shadow of like Animal House
[01:09:10] And Mel Brooks you know That Blazing Sal's Animal House And I'm Ghostbusters I guess is the same year as this But like that the national Lampoon sensibility You know was still like The dominating comedic force It was very sexual it was very anarchic
[01:09:27] And this movie is very classical In its comedy You know the DeVito stuff feels like Bugs Bunny And the two of them as you said Feel like it could be like Hepburn and Tracy Or whatever and the idea That it was like oh this thing has
[01:09:41] Actual action set pieces It has actual kind of classical comedy In it and it works as a romantic story And you're putting in this sort of adventure patina That just worked really well with Indiana Jones People are just like this is everything
[01:09:54] She's found out how to put everything that people like Into one movie that should work for everybody Yeah and DeVito You know with the Bugs Bunny connotation That's a perfect match for Zemeckis right Because I think that's what he does bring here
[01:10:07] That's good is the Looney Tunes sensibility The Roger Rabbit sensibility I think Griffon I think you called it Zip And this movie has that It has farce and it has chaos But it's always just on the edge Of teetering over but Zemeckis keeps it in control
[01:10:23] Even a little moment like DeVito's little Car pulling that U-turn On the muddy jungle road It's bouncing around like this yellow balloon And it's this wonderful cartoonish throwaway moment That you know as a kid And even now it makes you giggle It captures DeVito's character
[01:10:41] And that is definitely That's the sort of stuff that Zemeckis brought for me Is just that good cartoonish vibe And zip as you said I love it when someone has a car That reflects them You know what I mean
[01:10:55] I just love it when like a car pulls up And I'm like DeVito should be driving this car And then he like gets out of the car I'm like perfect That's exactly what I want Right not only is that the car he owns
[01:11:06] But he should be the hood ornament Like there should be a little chrome DeVito I love it You know I think you have also like Pesci And the Lethal Weapon movies Like what are other movies where they were like Same deal
[01:11:16] A thing you want is like a third sort of You know spicy comedy guy-ish Like you know to sort of like tag along Like it's very, I think of those very 80s 90s The jump for how much they center DeVito In Joule of the Nile is very similar
[01:11:33] To what they do with Pesci In Lethal Weapon where it's like Oh you like this in small doses Yeah, yeah, yeah He's everywhere Like half of Joule of the Nile Right half of Joule of the Nile is Kathleen Turner's being held hostage And it's Douglas and DeVito together
[01:11:51] Like it's not even DeVito chasing them It's the two of them or the buddy picture Yeah based on this you can't imagine That DeVito would be a key part of any sequel No I mean there's no reason based on his character You might just think like right
[01:12:04] Oh that's the end of him Right That was a nice little appearance by Danny DeVito Right And that's fine I mean there are ostensibly like four antagonist characters Of his size, not physically But real estate in the movie In this film
[01:12:20] He doesn't have a larger role than any of them He just does more with his screen time It's just that thing where it's like Well and he's inherently funny He's in sync with Zemeckis That's what it is He's on the same plane as Zemeckis
[01:12:34] Right because I was surprised knowing how much He became like the third guy above the title in the second movie And I mean he was in this movie But he's sort of over-billed Knowing how much this sort of like launched his career to the next level
[01:12:49] I assumed he was gonna be the third lead And he's not in a ton of it It's just that every time he's on screen He's so capturing the energy of the movie in his little body It's just we've talked about it
[01:13:02] But it is just crazy that he had a ten year run As both a bankable leading man in Hollywood And like a sort of surprisingly like talented director of dramas Like at the same time Yes Like you would bill him over Michelle Pfeiffer in Batman Returns
[01:13:23] And David, you're forgetting You're forgetting the third step of that argument Which is he also became a major producer And then he also becomes like a shaman I think just two But like yes, just a fiction in Erich Brokovich Right, a good indie-ish producer
[01:13:42] It's true, it's just the guy from Taxi And I love Danny DeVito, I want to be clear Like I have nothing but respect and an admiration for Danny DeVito But just like they would make movies where like what's the premise
[01:13:56] Well it's like oh well Danny DeVito is a jerk Like that's the premise of the movie Like other people's money DeVito is a single father, fine Greenlight, like Jack the Bear Like that's what's so wild is you're like Okay great New York theater actor
[01:14:10] This guy screams New York Like you know Soho, basement, playhouse energy You could see how he'd pop there Him getting onto something like Taxi Dream, Taylor made for him But it feels like man this guy got so lucky That this part existed
[01:14:26] There are not many sitcoms in which he would fit into properly This is a perfect role for him And then he gets something like Remancing the Stone And you're like well very lucky Very lucky that Michael Douglas is his good friend
[01:14:37] There are not a lot of movies you could imagine Danny DeVito fitting into But this role is perfect for him And then shortly after this they're just like No, Day DeVito's a movie star We build vehicles around Danny DeVito Griffin, the Jack the Bear reference
[01:14:51] Made this whole night worth it Jack the Bear How wild that movie exists That was a wild one That's Marshall Herskivitz right It's the other guy His partner, right yes But it's like you look at I was just running through all the DeVito vehicles
[01:15:07] Because this is still the period where it's like He's and Danny DeVito He's won a couple of Emmys You know he's a TV star You throw him in for a couple scenes to be funny This is the one that I think kind of pushes him over the edge
[01:15:20] And then you have like Wise guys The Joe Piscopo Danny DeVito two-hander Directed by Brian DePalma You have twins obviously Is just like humongous Well he had Yeah, he had some of those Big comedies Wasn't other people's money? I feel like That's later
[01:15:40] Yeah, that's a little bit later Ruthless people is the one right after this There you go, yeah That's his first I'm first build It's a Danny DeVito movie Which is a Zucker Abraham Zucker joint You know that's huge Tin men and You know but also he starts directing
[01:15:55] Like he does throw a bomber from the train in 87 You know war of the roses in 89 And both of those are huge hits They're like incredibly dark violent comedies That are both huge mainstream hits When he made Hoffa He's on the poster of Hoffa
[01:16:11] Have you seen the poster? It's Nicholson It's Nicholson DeVito A Danny DeVito film Danny DeVito smoking over his shoulder Yes, it's wild He really should have been in the Irishman now In retrospect I wish I wish That's the only thing now I still love Danny DeVito
[01:16:29] And I love that he has like a 150 episode run It's always sunny as this like Eighth thing in his career Like this new wave But I would like to see him do more Like weird kind of dark character stuff With serious directors
[01:16:45] Which I feel like he used to do more of You know he'd pop up in like Heist Or something cool like that It feels like DeVito Only really shows up for Burton now And then other than that It's like he's got his always sunny gig
[01:16:59] And he does very lucrative voiceover work Anytime there's a cartoon character That people think looks like Danny DeVito He's like yeah fine I'll be the Lorax And otherwise Right you wish he was doing You know even though some of these are smaller roles than other But like
[01:17:14] You wish he was doing Heist You wish he was doing the Rainmaker You wish he was doing Virgin Suicide He's doing all of these things I forgot about the Rainmaker That's a good 90's DeVito I also I wish he directed more
[01:17:27] Like I like all of his movies other than Duplex You know and I think he did a thing Like when we talked about Lucky Numbers on this show We talked about like How anytime Hollywood tries to do a big shiny Very dark comedy with movie stars at bombs
[01:17:43] And pretty much those DeVito movies are the only exception He also entered in Scalia Retire Bitch One of the greatest tweets of all time And hungover from Limoncello on The View Which is also one of the best performances of all time
[01:17:57] He's got a lot of feathers in his cap That's all I'm saying Range He's a Renaissance man And that's another Danny DeVito vehicle Renaissance man Wow Oh man Romance in the stone We haven't really talked the plot that much
[01:18:10] I guess there's not like a lot to worry about on that front I'm trying to think of other stuff we need to touch on It's actually, I think we were saying how it was It was convoluted before But it's actually pretty straightforward It's very straightforward
[01:18:24] It's just that every twist is a You always have to be like, okay sure It's that cartoon short element Where everything keeps getting ratcheted up Right Well I got a question and this is kind of a Here's a bad nostalgia ballad rung for me
[01:18:39] I was, anyone else who saw this If you saw this when you were young Remember the hysteria about the country of Columbia That existed in the 80s And how this totally fed into it I think this is part of the whole war on drugs Right
[01:18:54] The thing going on Because Columbia here is You know, it's basically drugs in danger Right, that's all we're all We're getting here There's violence-worthy men And Yes Backwards peasants And that's what we're all at It's a place of drugs and danger That's why they didn't shoot there, Josh
[01:19:12] Exactly, too dangerous It's dripping with, you know, the xenophobia And I can't decide I want to spend a little time on Alfonso Aro Has the drug kingpin in the country Who is the fanboy of Joan Wilder Right, has all her books
[01:19:29] I can't decide if he's undercutting the xenophobia Or feeding into it I think his scenes are hilarious I think he's undercutting it But it's a razor thin line Yeah, that sounds right It's also interesting Like, Jewel of the Nile goes Full fictional country It's just like made up
[01:19:50] I think maybe even unnamed country in Africa And that one is about Like religious leaders And dictators It's not about smuggling in the same kind of way The weird twist of that movie Is that Jewel of the Nile is As Beanie Feldstein would say The titular role
[01:20:09] They think that they're trying to get Another big brightly colored rock And in fact, the thing they're trying to get Is a spiritual leader It's a guy whose name is Jewel Bad movie This is coming back to me now As you describe it
[01:20:26] But it's that weird thing where it feels like And that makes sense to me now I mean, now that you're putting in the context of like 80s sort of like Latin America Drug running xenophobia That's where all the problems were coming from
[01:20:38] Right? It wasn't us in the U.S. No Right, like Jewel of the Nile feels a lot less Specific and also feels More offensive in its own way But I can see them like Overcorrecting in two directions And somehow making things worse
[01:20:54] How'd you like the Elin Sylvesterie score You know, some good 80s sax and synth going there This is the first collaboration with Zemeckis, right? Or did he say it is? He's like a lifer then after that, right? He's working with them This is also the first Dean Cundey
[01:21:12] Zemeckis movie And they just roll over He takes Cundey and Zemeckis And sorry, Sylvesterie With him to back to the future the next year It's another thing that you totally feel missing From Jewel of the Nile And it shows just kind of how lucky
[01:21:28] Zemeckis was with all the elements He was given on this movie Well, there is that beautiful shot You know, I joked about the dance scene But it ends with that beautiful Shot of them sort of coming together The music slows down You get the fireworks behind them
[01:21:44] And as I'm describing it It sounds like the cheesiest thing in movie history But there's something really elegant about it When you see it on the screen And that's an important moment, right? Going back to how she perceives Douglas' character and how he plays That part, because that's
[01:21:58] We know he's made the choice at that point To betray her Yet it's also the moment where she is You know, thinking she maybe has found the guy Now, you malign Michael Douglas' dancing Oh, it's painful to watch Maybe rightfully so But I noticed watching it last night
[01:22:14] That there's something just slightly Off about it and it's not his dance moves It's the fact that you see him Interacting with Joan and talking While other people are moving around them And there's other noise But you're not hearing anything they're saying
[01:22:29] There was something about it that I was like What's going on here? And then I read some articles Like 15 facts about romancing the stone And this completely made sense That was all just caught by the DP Stolen moments That was Michael Douglas Just dancing between takes
[01:22:48] With Kathleen Turner and other cast members So that's why they're not using any of the audio You beat me to it So they just caught that The MacCassan said please don't do that while I'm filming Douglas found out later that he was on camera the whole time
[01:23:02] And they ended up using it And I think my mom and other boomer women Swooned, Josh So I don't care what you think It does speak to just how well cast The two of them and further DeVito Are in this movie That it's like
[01:23:18] They're just so fully giving the right energy That you can shoot them Unawares and it's still workable footage You know Yeah, they're just great together Another like Turner moment that I love Is when they're in the car DeVito's car right Is it DeVito's car floating down the river
[01:23:36] At that point And she's trying to steer it Right Even though Whether it's a MacCassan A Turner improvisation or something in the script But just a great touch That is sort of cartoonish and screwball In the moment
[01:23:51] That is supposed to be also like a very serious action moment Right And she talked about how hard she fought for this role Because post body heat They thought she was too sexy for this They were like Well, the whole premise of the movie
[01:24:05] Is this woman should seem unconventional in this environment They're not gonna buy you And she had to like convince them To let her do a screen test With her hair up with no makeup You know with a pencil in her mouth
[01:24:19] Doing essentially all the stuff at the opening of the movie And you Yeah And you feel like She has this energy In this performance from getting to show a different side of her I mean, you can just only imagine her being like a woman
[01:24:35] Having this big highly sexualized breakout role Wanting so hard to work against getting pigeonholed Wanting to make sure that she can show that kind of range And she's so good Why she'd bristle She'd bristle it being positioned into that role again Right And when the movie starts out
[01:24:52] Even though you know Kathleen Turner And you know what she can play You still go I can't believe at the end of this movie She's gonna be swinging over a ravine You know Like she does sell you on
[01:25:04] It doesn't feel like this character is capable of making that journey Right But she is And it's very satisfying to watch I mean, I feel like we've talked through a lot of the plot In sort of circuitous way talking through all these elements
[01:25:15] But you go from that cold open which is like one of those moments where I Went, oh right this is a Zemeckis movie Like there's just a skill and a craft to the way he's doing that homage The sort of western romance homage at the beginning
[01:25:31] Even down to just like I'm like he got the colors right He got the lighting right Like this feels like you're watching a John Ford movie You know the guy's enough of a nerd That he really didn't want to just go like
[01:25:42] This is a parody of this type of thing I'm gonna very specifically emulate the visual language of the type of book She's writing if it were translated into a movie It was a little bit like Once upon a time in the West I think too
[01:25:56] In terms of that character you know Claudia Cardinals terrorized Mrs. McBain That's kind of who that character is playing there This woman who's being threatened And is going to try to take her own Take things in her own hands
[01:26:12] And he's a guy who loves classic western so much That's the thing that he and Gale and Spielberg bonded over That he like rammed back to the future Into becoming a western at the end of the franchise
[01:26:25] Even though there was no reason for it to go to that direction So you feel that excitement there And then the tonal jump from that to Kathleen Turner in her home is so good And like just all the shit with her like
[01:26:37] Writing the notes to remind herself of all the basic life things she has to do Is such good concise characterization And also felt like it hit way too close to home and lockdown Where I feel like every day I try to do something in my apartment
[01:26:50] I have to remind myself oh right you were supposed to take care of this yesterday Your sink isn't working because you forgot to buy a wrench I've gotten very into to-do lists as well In line with the mitt, yes
[01:27:02] I have to because I just walk around my apartment And I have to like note like what are the five things I need the next time I leave When I like prepare myself like Ernest Shackleton to brave the outdoors
[01:27:13] What are the five things I need to get from Dwayne Reed And when I come home and I realize I forgot one of them It feels like a massive failure But the movie moves so fast after that You have the good setup with her and Holland Taylor
[01:27:25] Where you just essentially say exactly what's going on in this character She feels a little bit trapped in her success Well and you also see like this need for a man is being foisted upon her too Right because Holland Taylor is like yes
[01:27:39] She's picking out all the men at the bar which ones are acceptable Her neighbor in her building The question she you know I what does she say something like I'm still holding out hope for you So not only do you need a man but time is running out
[01:27:52] Right so Right But you have I mean I feel like she gets the call from her sister within the first 15 minutes right Yeah that sounds right If not like 10 very quick Yeah This is not a long movie this is like an hour 45 Yeah like yeah
[01:28:08] But you get the stakes of the movie which are her sister I like how sort of like flippantly they explain like Well you know this honeymoon she went on her husband just died I mean geez Louise wait why is she calling and how
[01:28:21] The fact he was cut up and showed up dead Right it was butchered He's just sort of like say lovey I mean I don't know Bad truth It's I think we've established it's Columbia It's Columbia right the scariest place on her
[01:28:35] But yes you know she knows her sister is still overseas that her husband's been Trapped into a million pieces but now she gets the call That she's gotten caught up in something worse And she's being held hostage and she has to go bring the map to her sister
[01:28:49] And the movie I mean it is like a looney tunes thing The whole sort of like main story is put in a motion Because she gets on the wrong bus when the signs are turning the wrong direction
[01:29:01] Someone points the wrong way which is like Bugs Bunny like I took a the wrong turn at Albuquerque shit Like it's very like so by chance you know these three things sort of like comically going wrong at one moment
[01:29:13] Put her the wrong bus which crashes into the wrong car Which gets her set up with the wrong guy And the thing that I was so impressed with And it's like this weird thing watching
[01:29:27] Seeing this movie so late after seeing so many films that were influenced by this movie And are trying to replicate this movie You realize the things that they get wrong that this movie got right In a way where you're like why wasn't everyone ripping them off more closely
[01:29:42] But the fact that they sort of start to warm up to each other Under an hour in Like I feel like that scene in the plane is like 50 minutes in And the scene where they sleep together is like a little over an hour in
[01:29:56] And I feel like most movies like this wait until an hour and 45 minutes for them to realize they like each other Then they have one final fight they break up and they get back together at the end
[01:30:04] That's why I love it. I love that they sleep together halfway through And but they are like he's only definitely decided to stop being an asshole right at the end of the movie Or close They can still bicker but kind of be into each other
[01:30:20] And I feel like so many movies mess it up where they're like No, they need to keep on fighting 90% of the running time Like tooth and nail which at a certain point just becomes unpleasant to watch Like you're just like well they're never gonna like each other
[01:30:34] Yeah, there's not enough of a mixture Like the classic screwball comedies The detest was always mixed with the attraction And then the mixture changed as the movie went on And then the ones that get it wrong they either detest each other or they're attracted
[01:30:50] It's A or B right? There's no tension Yeah, there's no tension Right This gets the classical push and pull and it's nice as you said David just have them sleep together an hour in That's not the end of their conflicts new conflicts will arise
[01:31:02] Like don't set that up like it's the the final challenge You know the thing that will solve their relationship forever It's just not a chaste movie I appreciate that about it Like especially since it's Michael Douglas and Kathleen Turner
[01:31:15] Who are these stars I associate with like 80s steaminess like in all of its glory Right, there's there's sweaty sex actors Yeah, it's great They like being sweaty and having sex You brought up the and I know we shouldn't scrutinize the script too much here
[01:31:38] But when you were talking about getting on the wrong buses and stuff I do remember watching it and thinking okay even early on they've set up this Zolo As if he's like the baddest most evil guy on the planet He's the butcher he's this terrible presence
[01:31:51] He takes out the super Why does he get on the bus and go like 12 hours into the countryside When he could have literally just I mean he could have at any moment when they got off the plane
[01:32:01] Just grabbed her, got whatever he wanted and there wouldn't be a movie Like you have that dumb luck moment that it's like oh she's naive What a coincidence the person she asked to help her figure out what bus to get on
[01:32:14] Is the guy who's been trying to hunt her Okay, I'll give you that movie contrivance That's how movies work The moment that doesn't make sense is that Zola's result is like What I want is for her to get on this wrong bus
[01:32:27] I'll get on the bus with her and then I'll kill her maybe tomorrow Especially when he has a militia at his disposal Yes It's not like he has to be at work covertly here I will say he gets his whole arm bitten off
[01:32:44] And this is this movie is rated PG PG Because it's not PG-13 is maybe doesn't even exist yet That strikes me as one of those classic when you're a kid Like I can't believe I just saw that moment
[01:32:57] Yes, I think the crocodiles are probably 65% of the reason I love this movie When I was a kid And of course it's like this is another reference point for it Right is the the bond which bond is it live and let die
[01:33:11] That has been jumping on the the crocodiles So just that the crocodiles or the alligators whatever they are Are planted early on you know someone Somebody's hand is going at some point And as a kid you're just waiting for that moment
[01:33:25] Is a well thing it is right it's weirdly violent It's weirdly sexual for a movie that doesn't necessarily warrant an R It would be a PG-13 but you're used to these movies being a little more chased
[01:33:37] And I think a little more heightened and a little more hermetic and stylized As much as Zemeckis has that zip I think he really keeps his eye on the ball with these two characters Remaining flawed human beings and not movie archetypes
[01:33:57] But yeah I mean this is you know they have their meat cute Which is two vehicles crashing into one another after she gets shot at a bunch of times And then the deal is set and like talking about him being a little pathetic
[01:34:11] I love how quickly he comes down in negotiation Like him finally settling for what is it $275 Traveler's Jacks $375 Traveler's Jacks $375 yes Yeah Right he doesn't take the lady to a phone booth for less than $500 Josh you were talking about the moments that deflate him as a man
[01:34:29] Or as this kind of masculine archetype I mean how about the fact that they meet because the bus hits his vehicle And it's carrying birds He's a bird smuggler He's hit the birds It's not as if he's out there like you know living off the land
[01:34:47] He's trying to get by and he's got a really stupid scheme to try to survive basically He has figured out that people pay too much money for certain birds Right Well and that's where she starts to fall for him is when he shows that
[01:35:03] He's actually kind of interested in these birds right He's describing the differences in the birds and he's showing like I guess you could see that as being unmanly Right a man would just grab the bird from the sky and shove it in his pocket
[01:35:17] He wouldn't care what kind of bird it is But here's this guy trying to explain the differences between different birds And that's where she starts to open up to the possibility There's a lighter touch with him and not to repeat myself But it's also that he is unfulfilled
[01:35:35] I think in that moment when he explains to her that this isn't what he set out to do in life It's what he landed at But as a byproduct of this dream of living some grander life Finding some sort of adventure for himself
[01:35:47] That's the moment she immediately relates to It's like I literally traffic and fantasy I sit down and write the types of scenarios that you tried to live I get that sense of disappointment with where you ended up Even if your life is more exciting than mine right now
[01:36:03] But it just, it's so nice that it doesn't like I feel like I've talked about especially in comedies With popular mainstream entertainment films I feel like so often their success or failure Is defined by how well they are able to pace themselves And not feel like you're stalling
[01:36:30] Because any movie really, the conflict, there's a way the conflict could be resolved in 10 minutes Right? Like every movie has to create obstructions preventing its characters from getting to the end of the movie too early
[01:36:42] And I think when those things are done artfully that's when films are really engaging When you're actually buying to the stakes and it doesn't feel like God come on she would never make that decision What are the odds of that happening on this day?
[01:36:53] And to that point it's like You understand the amount of space they have to traverse You understand the struggles But the bigger thing is They move through the stages of their relationship and their courtship so quickly Because it's like negotiation Then it's the mud slide
[01:37:10] That's sort of their low point Literally down at the bottom of a mud slide Him between her legs being crass Then like there's a little more fighting And then within 10 minutes they're in the plane getting vulnerable with each other I mean it happens Within 20 minutes of them meeting
[01:37:25] The scene where they start to bond You know they sleep together 10 minutes after that I mean it helps that As they're trekking through the steps That you can follow of who's after them Where do they need to get What do they need to locate
[01:37:38] Their relationship is moving very linearly and logically And isn't stalling at all Yeah and for the most part too other than that scene in The fuselage of the plane or whatever It's in their actions It's in the moments The way they look at each other sometimes
[01:37:56] It's the way someone says something That makes the other person react a certain way But it's not like they're having these deep conversations It's all in their behavior It's behavioral, yeah Yeah which is just good writing And you have two great movie stars
[01:38:10] Who are up to that task Right and this is the point where you have Everyone kind of circling in on them I mean I guess the character I'm forgetting his name now But the one who's such a big fan of hers
[01:38:22] That's really like the midpoint of the movie Juan Alfonso Arrero That joke works on me so well Even though it's so... I read you those stories at night time And everyone's like It's just so ridiculous It's also a thing I think Jules van Nel gets really wrong
[01:38:44] Is they make it that she's like A humongous author That she's like world renowned That people are constantly recognizing her from her books And the beauty of that joke is that Like you get at the beginning in the Holland Taylor conversation She's successful
[01:38:59] People want her books, they sell well But no one else, the rest of the movie knows her by name No one else presents themselves as a fan And at that point you're so far past Thinking about her career That the idea that one guy is like fanatical
[01:39:13] About her work And it happens to be this guy Right when she's on the other end of a barrel of a gun You know? Like at the right moment this guy Not only is such a big fan But can convey to everyone else in the town
[01:39:24] You don't know like this is Joan Wilder town We live and die by Joan Wilder here Right And that's also where Douglas starts to take her seriously As something other than a mark Right So it does that work as well as being very funny
[01:39:38] Right, maybe he's not just romancing the stone Because they have the stone at that point Or do they get it afterwards? No, they don't They don't get it right after This is... That's when they're still looking for a vehicle Like you know To get to the stone
[01:39:50] But it's also... I mean this was not an expensive... What, it had a budget of $10 million Like this is not like Being told on the epic scale of Raiders of the Lost Ark But I appreciate that simplicity too Like there's not a lot of puzzles for them here
[01:40:03] Like they're not being led On some merry treasure hunt Where they have to you know Figure out six different things Like you know they find the stone with ease They get there by accident Right, the movie is very economical It's like oh there's that thing on the map
[01:40:17] I guess we're here Right No, that's a good point, David It has to be because they're chumps Like if they had to do too much puzzle solving You would... It would strain credibility You'd be like why are they suddenly so good at this? You're right
[01:40:31] Neither of them are made for this And truly the major conflict of the movie remains She took a bus several hours in the wrong direction The real conflict of this movie Is that she should have been able to get From the airport to her sister
[01:40:46] In under an hour And she went too far in the other direction And now she has to undo that That's the main conflict Davido does basically nothing except When they get the stone snatches it from them And then five seconds later they're like Get that back
[01:40:59] And that's it Like that's his entire arc Right, Davido just keeps on going Like I'm getting close I'm getting close And then he finally gets them And he fucks it up within 30 seconds Yeah And like rolls down a hill and it's great It's so good
[01:41:12] Another great bit is when he's left Behind on the boat you know For no reason at the very end Yeah Soon I'll come back very soon So good The moment for me that just killed me Is the physical bit And Zemeckis is such like
[01:41:29] He's got that childish love Of slapstick comedy and everything He knows just to let these things Play out in master shots That he doesn't cut the coverage too much He lets like These multiple actors in this incredible terrain Behave in real time In real unbroken takes
[01:41:48] But that bit where Davido is on the phone And he notices the wanted poster Yeah And he's trying to pull the poster down And it's like Davido has always been so smart At knowing his size And knowing how much funny or certain things are
[01:42:03] Because of his relation to everything else around him Objects and space and time And other people Like any two shot with Dane Davido is funny Because it's not how any other two shot With two adults is framed But that bit where it's just like He's on the phone
[01:42:20] He's keeping up his angry energy It's like classic Louis de Palma stuff And then he's trying to figure out Like how to get up onto the chair How to switch over to the side How to jump onto the counter And then when he just does that perfect fall
[01:42:33] Where like his feet go above his head And he falls out of frame He's inherently funny It's not just that he looks like Dane Davido It's that he's a very skilled actor And he understands how to use Being Dane Davido as like an instrument And I was watching
[01:42:50] All these interviews with him Where he was like So many of the moments that people told me were funny Like I didn't even realize Like the thing you were saying Josh about him running away From the car shooting behind him
[01:43:04] He was like I was trying to play that as straight as possible I just wasn't thinking about the fact That it would look funny Because I'm the one doing it And why does it look funny to your point Griffin Is because Zemeckis shoots it in like Wide shot
[01:43:16] So we see the space all around him Like there's not really an immediate threat But yet he's still firing Over his head in desperation It's so funny Talking about how much they America just had Davido fever at the time The trailer for this movie
[01:43:35] Is Davido in an apartment Calling Ira Saying like I got a real big case There's this stone you see And the whole trailer is footage Shot just for the trailer of Davido In a set they constructed Just for the trailer Air rating Going like there's this guy
[01:43:55] And this woman real sad Like he's listing all the things The trailer is like 60 seconds And he's like can't talk Gotta leave right now He hangs up the phone And he says And I'm taking you with me And he points at the audience
[01:44:10] And it just says romancing the stone And the movie was a huge hit It's just all Davido Guess what? Trailer for Jewel the Nile Exactly the same Trailer for Jewel the Nile Him walking up to a phone booth going Hey Ira I got a whole new case
[01:44:25] This time it's even bigger than that stone Hey if it ain't broke don't fix it It's a jewel Unbelievable But in relation to David as you said He's A threat at a distance shows up Steals the stone for them They're like no you're little We're taking it back
[01:44:41] And he's pretty much gone Yep But this nigger like LA Confidential A favorite movie of mine Like that movie begins With Danny Davido going like So here's the deal LA Like the big city They're building highways Like he's laying out Like Danny Davido being used As a narrator
[01:45:00] Or an entree to his story Is an underrated cinematic device That should be revived I feel like ten years ago Or maybe even more He announced he was going to Star in and direct a movie About Crazy Eddie The like blowout discount electronics guy Who was the first
[01:45:18] Yeah of course like They think I'm insane I'm giving these things away And it's like That's exactly what I want to see That's the exact movie I want in the world Is Davido to camera Just screaming about toaster ovens All right Unless there's anything else
[01:45:36] We should play the box office game To good box office game I will say I mean we sort of talked about this We got there earlier Talking about this stuff out of order But yeah Once they get the stone You pretty quickly get to that
[01:45:51] Sort of final showdown Where everyone comes into place At once the standoff With the crocodiles Which is such a good Like new physical threat for them And the calculation of him In the moment It's seeming like He's doing the selfless thing He's proving that he's not
[01:46:08] Actually a scumbag Because he would rather Lose the stone And save her life Than give it to these guys But in fact you get He knows exactly what he's doing That the crocodile is not Going to be able to digest the stone He'll get it back
[01:46:24] He'll like surround this guy As he does And you know He thinks he can leave her And that she's Going to be okay on her own I read that as a more noble choice Actually I think it's both I think it's both I do
[01:46:40] I mean you think it's 100% sincere Yeah I mean because they show That the crocodile is like Jumping into the bay The implication to me is It's free It's wild They've escaped its enclosure Yeah but they do keep Cutting back to the crocodile Always to let us know
[01:46:59] That he's keeping an eye on it Like he's always watching it And also we know this guy loves boats Like that's the other thing He's boat crazy He's so crazy about boats He drives one down in New York City street At the end of the movie
[01:47:12] But I mean just for a second though Was anyone else struck by The absurdity again of A crocodile is in the bay And he just jumps in He's like I'm just getting in the water Yeah right That's the Indiana Jones move right
[01:47:28] That's the like no matter how insane This situation I've rather covered I mean I don't know I'd come up with a plan But I'm not just jumping in I don't know Especially it just ate a person's hand Like this is not a chill crocodile Yeah
[01:47:43] I do like that That's the Douglas thing though Of just like whether or not It's strategic at that point in time Or an idea he comes to later I do like that he Recognizes I'm not a moron I'm not gonna go after the crocodile now
[01:47:57] Wait for the crocodile to poop You know Like you can't stick your hand on a crocodile Throw it's a bad idea But the end of this movie I just think is so genuinely sweet I mean they get there pretty fast But like goes back to New York
[01:48:13] She has achieved the height of success Which is of course being cat-called On the street by random strangers Now she's finally gotten her life in balance People are wolf whistling at her But also it's that before She's like totally surrounded She can't get by one person
[01:48:29] And assert herself right At the end she's in complete control It's the assertion Yes, that is very true And she's very comfortable in her own skin And all of that She's figured out a new book She's got new inspiration in her life
[01:48:40] But Douglas showing up with a boat Just like totally disarmed me I just think it's so There's something so visually striking about it The boots, yes The crocodile boots are good The boots A very nice touch But there's something so like romantic
[01:48:58] In sort of a fairy tale way About that final shot of just like What is it Madison Avenue With the boat just driving down it Off until the distance Absolutely why not I mean everything has happened the way it should In terms of the arc of Joan Wilder
[01:49:14] But that she gets the payoff to At the end she finally gets to live out the fantasy And both get fulfillment, right? I mean that's what Hollywood endings are made of I'm just seeing Go ahead Griffin, sorry I wanted to note that they considered
[01:49:31] Remaking this with Catherine Heigl and Taylor Kitch Or Gerard Butler Gerard Butler I saw that Right, that's the big one After Ugly Truth they were like We gotta just throw you guys into A romancing the stone remake Because David has contended before in this podcast
[01:49:47] That Catherine Heigl and Gerard Butler Together and separately might have killed The romantic comedy in America Like there may be the two people You could put the blame at And the idea of just like a 2008 2009 romancing the stone Reboot with the two of them
[01:50:03] Just sounds like the absolute worst Idea and misunderstanding Of what works in this movie If I could just do two other things Very quickly before we get to the box office game David One tiny merchandise spotlight That I just found kind of charming They released novelizations
[01:50:19] Of both of these movies Which most movies in the 80s Got novelizations even the ones you imagine Would not have got novelizations They had both of them credited to Joan Wilder Which I think is cool Yeah that is clever Yes I like that
[01:50:35] And I believe they tried to write them Sort of in the style of the types of books That she would have written But the same plots That's the one Despite being sort of so rushed I mean they came out the next year
[01:50:49] Zemeckis talk about a sliding door scenario You have to imagine there is a part of him Or a part of most filmmakers Who would be tempted by the prospect of It's a go picture You just made a hit Fox wants a sequel The stars are back
[01:51:05] It's an easy paycheck to just come back For the second one And instead he goes off and makes back to the future Well it goes back to what you said at the start You know if he was The end game was back to the future Always
[01:51:19] This positioned him to do it But he couldn't even be He took the gig yes He couldn't be tempted I feel like a lot of people get laid Sort of astray If they have one hit like this They start to question Should I make the fujik move versus
[01:51:37] Right And Joel Denial ended up Actually making more Than romancing the stone It was a slightly bigger hit But they never made the third one Largely because it just feels Like a killed enthusiasm for it It's that rare case of in the past
[01:51:55] If it didn't feel like the desire was there Studios would not cram As fifth entry down audiences throats They would just sort of throw their hands up At one point I think in the early 2000s Or the late 90s I just want to correct you
[01:52:09] But it may just about the same amount Yeah In the late 90s They almost did a third movie That was the two of them and their kids And then in the early 2000s there was a rumor That Douglas wanted to do a third one
[01:52:25] But with Catherine's Ada Jones Instead of Bad idea Bad idea So very happy neither of those happened Very happy the Catherine Heigl drew But it was like It's still kind of curious they wouldn't push the third one up a hill And then I read some of the anecdotes
[01:52:43] About the making of Joel Denial If I could just speed run through these So immediately they're like bring back Diane Thomas Diane Thomas has gotten an overall deal at Amblen Douglas says we can't afford her Kathleen Turner resents The fact that they don't get Diane Thomas
[01:52:57] So Kathleen Turner tries to quit the movie When they deliver the script that was written by two other guys Fox then threatens to sue Kathleen Turner for $25 million Douglas intercepts And is like please Please I'll stop her from quitting Don't sue her drop the suit
[01:53:15] Goes to Diane Thomas Says can you please come on and like take a pass at the script I need you to fix this Just two weeks whatever you can do So she comes on and works the script for two weeks He's like we can't pay you your quote
[01:53:27] So as a reward He buys her the newest Top of the line Porsche That Porsche is what she dies in Several months later Curse number one Then curse number two Where's this here Approximately two weeks before principal photography began An aircraft carrying Richard Dawking
[01:53:47] Production designer and Brian Cudd's Production manager crashed during location scouting Over the countryside of Morocco Killing all on board So you have three key creative people Who die right before You're going to see a movie right I think she dies a month before it comes out
[01:54:03] But she had a much younger boyfriend Who was a professional stunt driver Diane Thomas and he wanted to show off In the car that Michael Douglas had bought her For rewriting this movie And that's how she died And then there's this story here Let me just find this
[01:54:19] Do do do do do do I can't find this anecdote here But oh here we go Filming in North Africa was A major problem from unbearable 100 degree Fahrenheit heat to problems with the local crew But the most troubling concern was that the director Louis Teague who after this
[01:54:35] Goes on to make collision course The J. Leno Pat Merida buddy comedy That essentially kills his career And just works in TV for the rest of his life After that Showed that he was not up to the task of Helming an action film
[01:54:49] After one massive night scene that was hours And set up cast and crew in place It was only then that someone noticed There was no film in the cameras As producer Michael Douglas exploded The whole debacle had to be Re-filmed another day only after the raw
[01:55:07] Stock was finally located Equipment was being held up by customs Bribes were paid to local government I completely understand Why they didn't make another one after that Yeah they were probably just like forget it It's cursed this is a bad idea
[01:55:21] And also Douglas is such a big star At that point He doesn't want to do it he's like this is a young man's game And all three of them like Proceed to have huge Decades like the latter half of the 80s For Turner, DeVito and Douglas
[01:55:35] Are all three humongous Okay guys we're playing the box office game We're gonna guess The movies that came out The weekend this movie came out which is March 30th 1984 This movie opened at number Four so it was sort of like a long Big sleepery kind of movie
[01:55:53] Like it wasn't a movie that opened big and You know And this is March 84 September it's March Is December 85 yeah yeah So quick Number one of the box office Number one of the box office It's a comedy it's the start of a franchise Is a police academy
[01:56:15] It is Well done nice You guys see police academy in theaters You have police academy Yeah watched it constantly Yeah I think that was a VHS for me Right Right Yeah police academy It's second week I don't know what's it gonna go on to make
[01:56:35] It made 80 million bucks I mean it was a huge hit right Like you know probably In the top five of that year right Oh yeah humongous Definitely in the top five I just found out recently That the naked gun movies are only
[01:56:51] Called the naked gun because of police academy Because they were Adapting or continuing The police squad TV show And they didn't want to use the title police squad Because they were like police academy just has that Shit on lock Different comedy with police in the title Right
[01:57:09] Alright number two is A adventure film Funny that it's opening the same week as this More of a prestige adventure movie God knows what nomination Grey Stoke Legend of Tarzan Yes Jesus We're the ones doing an 8 from 84 series On our show this year And we're dying here
[01:57:29] Better not bring that up Adam I have never seen Grey Stoke, Colin The Legend of Tarzan, Comma Lord of the Apes Have you guys seen this film with Christopher Lambert? No I remember it being on I remember never being intrigued enough to keep watching
[01:57:43] It has that Ralph Richardson Kind of like the kind of So long, Captain Final role Oscar nomination That's what I know about It's a big brick baker breakthrough and then the other big thing I feel like that's known about that movie is
[01:57:57] I think Christopher Lambert couldn't speak English at all That's one of those movies where you have like a lead actor Who's acting phonetically And Annie McDowell they hated her southern accent so much That Glenn Close dubbed over All of her dialogue Really? Very strange Yeah It's another comedy
[01:58:15] I'm going to give you very little because you're getting these fast I'm on fire tonight Big star But on his way to star them Still sort of a juvenile Like a young comedy star Beverly Hills Cop It's not Beverly Hills Cop though That's December
[01:58:33] I just wanted to get something before Griffin And Ghostbusters is June So those are like the two huge comedies of this year Police Academy is already off the board Okay, but you have enough Is he young? Is it a young star?
[01:58:45] No, no, he's probably in his early 20s Or whatever, maybe a little older than that Yeah, he's probably close to He's late 20s And it's not an SNL guy No, although he certainly has been on SNL many times Oh, he's certainly been on SNL many times
[01:59:01] Splash! It's Splash! There you go Well done, there we go Danzen Mandel That's a movie I have seen so many times Another VHS type I don't know, or whatever That's one I saw probably Eight times between the ages Of 5 and 10 and have not seen since
[01:59:25] Yeah, I haven't seen it in years Romantic Star No. 4 So No. 5, it's a teen movie It was invoked on this podcast tonight It's been out for two months It's a huge hit Footloose A lot of big hits It's a great weekend for on-screen dancing Or not
[01:59:45] Those are five pretty well known movies It drops off after that, you got Against All Odds Tank, The Ice Pirates Children of the Corn Racing with the Moon Now we're in like Somewhat more forgotten mid-80s I don't know, I like that bottom 5
[02:00:01] David, there's some of those that shouldn't have bottom 5 It's fun, it's a fun bottom 5 We're still at the Moon, it's kind of an underrated movie I feel like that never gets discussed That's a sweet movie I've never seen it I watched it in trying to watch
[02:00:17] Every single Nicholas Cage movie But that's like coming of age Sean Penn's kid from Wrong Side of the Strat Elizabeth McGovern like really running Hot after Ordinary people and then Cage plays Like Penn's like wild loose canon friend Sure It looks pretty cute
[02:00:37] And it's like set in the 40s Yeah, that's a nice little movie Yeah, so that's it, we're done We did it, congratulations to everyone We discussed the film, Romance and the Stone Yes we did The last for hire Zemeckis movie And then after that he's like Robert Zemeckis
[02:00:57] He's writing his own checks after this Right, have fun with Back to the Future Who's this kid And after Back to the Future it's like you own this town You will own it forever, here are the keys Yep, as you should It is a crazy switch flip
[02:01:11] Considering that Back to the Future is coming Yeah, this is the one And once again that Back to the Future I didn't realize how close together These two movies were This is March It is an immediate hit It does well but it is somewhat of a sleeper
[02:01:29] Back to the Future is July 85 Back to the Future is 14 months later or whatever It's pretty well but he was ready I mean he knew that movie And as you said Josh That was the goal, like everything was working Towards getting to make that one
[02:01:45] And he will talk about it probably For too long next week Josh, Adam, thank you so much For being on the show Thanks a lot guys, good to have you A long time listener And I met you Adam We had a film spotting meet up in New York
[02:02:01] Like five or six years ago Five or six years ago, yeah And we kept in touch vaguely since then And then you very kindly asked me to be on the Toy Story episode When Josh was unavailable That was fun It truly is an honor
[02:02:17] Because I feel like you two guys Are the legends Of the film podcasting space And I was listening to your show For years before we had our own show And in It feels like a validation to have things Come full circle and have you guys come on
[02:02:33] And legitimize our stupid show The honor is all ours guys Little hyperbole but we'll take it So you guys Now that movies are starting to come back Into theaters, you're reviewing new releases Which is usually the bread and butter of your show
[02:02:47] But most of the summer you've been doing A lot of sort of mini series Director mini series or genres Or years or careers like that But is the plan going forward Back to new releases Or do you have more sort of marathons
[02:03:01] Coming up that you want to tease Yeah, we've actually been talking about this Recently and I think we're going to try To get back to a consistent schedule Of doing two marathons per year Which is where we talk about Five to seven movies By a certain actor or
[02:03:17] A certain director or maybe of a certain genre That these are usually blind spots for us And so we're two films into an overlooked Tourist marathon right now that is All about female directors So we started with Maya Daren And her experimental stuff
[02:03:31] And Ida Lupino and the Hitchhiker Then last week on the show we talked About Daisy's The Czech New Wave You know really pioneering film We have Jean Diehlman ahead So that I'm looking forward To that and we'll do that
[02:03:45] And we'll do a couple of those like I said And then I think this new series we started That kind of taking a page From your book actually what we are calling Based on a listener suggestion Our uvra views
[02:03:57] Going to take a look at a filmography of a director And Nolan was our first choice Because it was a perfect setup to As you said Griffin have some movies To talk about during this time Getting ready for Tenet and so we watched
[02:04:09] All of his films in order and talked about him And then we got to cap that off with Tenet But we don't know who's next But we're going to try to do at least one of those a year As well, so.
[02:04:19] If you don't already listen to film spotting I don't know why and you have your Patreon As well the film spotting family Which I am a member of Yes and everyone I'm a Member of the Blank Czech family As well on Patreon And I'll just say that our
[02:04:35] Page would not be As meagerly successful as it is Certainly relative to yours If it wasn't for your advice And taking the time to Talk to me about that and what made You guys successful so I appreciate Everything you did for us there
[02:04:51] That's very kind of you to say I appreciate the plug Because I'm trying to set up a shadow career As a Patreon whisperer Patreon consultant Why not? High paid Patreon consultant Is my new Because it doesn't look like I'm ever going to be on set Ever again
[02:05:07] Anyway thank you all for being On the show And thank you all for listening And tune in next week Back to the future What will definitely be a very Very normal low key Episode Please remember to rate, review, subscribe Go to Blank Czech Or rather Blankies.Reddit.com
[02:05:29] For some real nerdy shit You can go to our new Shopify With Merchandise I think the comedy points have sold out But we'll be refreshing stuff often So if something you want to see is out of stock Let us know on social media
[02:05:43] And if you have requests of other things You'd like to see us selling soon We're always open to those sorts of suggestions Go to patreon.com Backstash Blank Check Where I think we will now be on the Alien Films right? The Alien franchise That's right Absolutely Slytherin around
[02:06:03] Multiple mouths That's true That is a feature in the Alien films Multiple mouths Up to that basically So that's the thing to look forward to Yup And as always Michael Douglas is too horny on me Very good