Silence of the Lambs with Emily St. James

[00:00:01] Blank Check with Griffin and David, Blank Check with Griffin and David Don't know what to say or to expect All you need to know is that the name of the show is Blank Check A census taker once tried to podcast me

[00:00:24] I ate his pod with some cast beans and a nice... podcastie! Started bad, got worse 40 F's, that's the Pete Holmes joke You just sounded like you were a snake Are you trying to hypnotize Mowgli right now? I don't know how to do it, I just... Pretty good

[00:00:48] It's the top quote, I said I'm gonna do the impression poorly Let's just get it over with Because it'll happen more over the course of the episode I was trying to maybe pull off, as we said, the rare move of the Clarice into Hannibal

[00:01:00] You look like a roo The reverse Tomahawk Right, I mean... Dr. Lecter Dr. Lecter Dr. Lecter Is she a lot, Dr? I can say this because it's not trans-a-racer for me to say this But it puts the podcast on its skin Yes

[00:01:15] Or else it gets the pod again I was thinking about that, I feel like that's an even harder voice to do Very fun to try and nail but incredibly specific Right, it's so... Yes Very unusual Oh yeah Oh But like it's sort of like

[00:01:31] Edging into Dinofrio in Men in Black Right Sugar, water A pet cat Dear friend of mine A pet cat I just remember how he delivers a pet cat in a Men in Black Isn't it weird that that performance didn't win all four acting categories that year?

[00:01:49] Should have won all four And also Best Director Best Bug Yeah There should be a Best Supporting Bug And then Vincent Dinofrio would have won that It is crazy how like that movie comes out And everyone's like, Dinofrio's great in it

[00:02:00] I mean it's not a real performance but he's great in it And then like Do people even say that at the time? I feel like they're like Dinofrio gives a fun turn, a committed performance I feel like people were like really hung up on how gross he was

[00:02:10] Yeah But I feel like 20 years later everyone kind of agrees Like oh no that's one of the best pieces of acting In the history of American cinema That is like one of the most committed Full body performances ever Then did you read the

[00:02:23] There was the big oral history with Barry Sonnenfeld Yes Which is incredible until he talks so much about the performance And Rick Baker Well, Rick Baker is like releasing his By the time this episode comes out What he's reporting has 18 months in advance

[00:02:37] But is doing the like multi volume hard cover Book of his entire career And he's doing a panel at New York Comic Con Tomorrow when we're recording this If you want a timestamp when this is being recorded That is like he's doing his big career retrospective

[00:02:51] And Dinofrio is moderating it That sounds And I was like that's very telling to me That like Rick Baker is like that's one of my great collaborations As Sonnenfeld to put this to sleep In that thing he said like he's doing Jack Houston That's what Jack in Chinatown

[00:03:07] That's what Sonnenfeld realized when they filmed the pet cat scene That's what he said, he literally I left something here A pet cat A pet cat I've found out Jay Leno Host of CNBC's Jay Leno's garage Whatever the fuck it's called Follows me on Twitter

[00:03:22] Jay Leno follows you on his what When he like DM'd me and was like hey He DM'd me? It must have been like I think it may have been a person Who worked in his office I can't imagine he runs his own way Like there's no way

[00:03:34] To the message open with Meow Something Yeah That's the first Hey man what do you think about this Hey man what do you think about this What do you think about this I'm calling you Kevin Eubanks The reason the no He was like can I come on

[00:03:48] I think you're interesting My podcast I haven't recorded an episode of in like a year This was real good to restart the podcast right now This was after I'd come out Cause he also dead named me And I was like I'm sorry

[00:03:56] We haven't done an episode in a while By the way I go by Emily now And whoever runs the Jay Leno Twitter account I'm sorry I'm like keep up with my life Jay Leno What the fuck But you are going to restart I think you're interesting now

[00:04:07] You have to I got to so I can have And then I found that he like did A bunch of podcasts And I think he was like trying to do Gorilla marketing or whatever For his CNBC show Or garage Yeah Cause he was on JLG

[00:04:20] He was doing gorilla for JLG He was on one of the Jesse Thorne shows He was on some of the other LA based interview podcasts He was on WTF And he did a very very normal Psychologically balanced interview In which he explained that he has never been

[00:04:33] Competitive and only did what anyone else Would do in that position Wait wait wait Come on Job's open You're not going to hide in a closet And Come on I did the same thing Anyone else would do I'm not competitive He hasn't tweeted since August 28

[00:04:46] So he's not a big tweeter I guess Whatever I think you got to get him on I'm sure it's not like Jay Leno Like sitting in his bathroom Like being I'll see what Emily's up to But his account Slid like Giffield Into your DMs

[00:04:59] Remember when the Jay Leno show Premiered on NBC Oh yeah It's about time It was about time It was about time And Kanye was I believe the first guest Yeah And he got Kanye to like basically Cry over like His mother had just died Yelena Taylor Swift

[00:05:15] And his mother had just right Did I make you cover week one of that I made somebody cover week one of that I am almost certain that you made me Cover week one of that Now I have to look it up Now I have to look it up

[00:05:25] Let's find out Talk about Trauma Either you Either I covered it Or you asked and I couldn't do it Now because I know I can't find it That is a thing I mean I don't know if you folks Watch the deleted scenes Because the criterion DVD now has

[00:05:41] Like 45 minutes of deleted scenes For this movie And one of them Hannibal Lecter explains to Clarice Starling That the trauma that Buffalo Bill experienced As a child That turned him into a psychopath Was having to recap the Jay Leno show For the A.B. Club I actually

[00:05:59] I was the one who recruited The first week Yeah It was you That feels like the kind of thing You'd just be like Yeah Let me put this on my back It was my first yet Well I mean you know I was avoiding a bunch of shit

[00:06:10] But like that was my first Fall STV editor there And I was like I'm going to review every new show And I was like Shit that includes the Jay Leno show So like I watched the first week of that And then like And my lead is like

[00:06:23] I really thought this could be interesting I'm like what Yeah I mean That was I mean Everyone was maybe Had the blinders on there Well he was selling like Oh we're gonna rethink it Cause it's not late night anymore It's gonna be prime time

[00:06:36] We're gonna do more sketches We're gonna do more comedy bits No desk Just the Tonight Show Right It was just the Tonight Show Except there was no desk And there was like some cars on stage Right There was at least two cars on stage

[00:06:47] Right they had more field reporters Yeah Like they had like six Ross the interns There was no desk And he ended it with Five big ones Do you remember that The final segment was Yeah cause that was when Kimmel Messed with him Was on the five big ones

[00:07:01] And you know They had the field reporters They broke the Edwards-Nodent thing In the last few months of the show They broke Edwards-Nodent And then like Yeah that was their Their contribution NBC was like Good work you get the Tonight Show back That's what Citizen 4 is about

[00:07:14] Yeah that's why J. Leno has the Pulitzer Yeah So let it happen There's something he's like Opening his safe Edward you came by this? Alright Alright turn the camera on You said whistle blow I hardly know Alright alright alright J. Leno Well ringing the bell Wow

[00:07:29] Is that the bit bell It was the bit bell And it's now closed Too many bits Too many bits Too many bits the market is closed Hello everybody my name's Griffin Newman My name is David Sims It's a blank check with Griffin and David of course That's true

[00:07:42] It's a podcast about filmography Directors who have massive success Early on in their careers Giving a series of blank checks To make whatever crazy passion products they want Sometimes those checks clear And sometimes they bounce baby Sometimes they look like a rube That's true

[00:07:57] They look like a rube We're doing main series on the films Of Jonathan Demi It is called Stop Making Podcast Yeah rude And today we are discussing The Movie The Movie The Movie The Movie I mean I was thinking

[00:08:15] I was like this is one of the best movies We will ever cover on the podcast We could do this podcast for 20 more years That is correct And we will never cover Above single digits Movies greater than this right I think this is the most influential movie

[00:08:31] You've ever covered Maybe The Matrix Maybe like The Matrix or Star Wars But certainly in terms of In terms of things maybe you don't even realize Are influential and then when you watch it You're like oh of course This is all of television It's everything

[00:08:48] It's all of podcasting practically Yeah all true kind of broadcasting I was watching this last night Getting stressed out of being like Oh fuck I'm like now reckoning with How big an episode this is How big it is that we're going to cover this movie

[00:09:01] It's also a movie that I've seen many times And for a movie about A couple serial killers who like to Eat and or tear the flesh off of people It's extremely rewatchable And kind of comforting Every- this whole movie is fascinating I'm so anytime I throw it out

[00:09:17] I'm like oh this is great Yeah I can't wait for Clarice to have another Very charged and emotional conversation With The Psychopath I was like worried I wasn't going to like it as much this time For reasons we'll probably delve into

[00:09:29] But also because I've seen it so many times That I was like oh this is so too familiar to me Because thrillers often you need that element Of newness but like no this movie's fucking great I had seen this movie once before What?

[00:09:45] I saw it when I was in high school Sorry for yelling Yeah but I saw this movie like 15 years ago Loved it, remembered it almost shot for shot It was one of those things where I was like I have not watched this in 15 years

[00:09:57] And every bit of this is like totally Stuck vividly in my brain But it also was one of those movies where When I watched it when I was 15 And I watched probably cable fucking full screen Or whatever right

[00:10:09] I was like well I mean it's going to be diminished Because like I've grown up In a post-sounds The Lambs climate I had seen it only after Red Dragon and Hannibal And Hannibal Rising had come out And it was like They perfected the Hannibal movie

[00:10:25] This is going to be one of those things where I see the movie And I appreciate it but obviously It's lost some of its power because it's been Parodied so much and you've had diminishing returns In the sequels and whatever

[00:10:35] And then I watched it and I was like This is fucking terrifying It feels like it was made an hour ago This is like searing and it's stuck in my brain For 15 years and I watched it last night

[00:10:45] And I was like why don't I watch this every week Aside from the fact that it is heavy It's fantastic Yes I bought the blue The last time there was a criterion sale knowing that Demi was coming up

[00:10:57] It is a movie that benefits from extremely high quality picture And I was sort of like watching After this I'm not watching I was going through Blu-ray review sites That were comparing every Home video version of the movie And this The jumping quality on this blue is like

[00:11:17] It looks fucking incredible And you realize that the previous MGM releases were kind of crummy It is just Daggering that this movie did not get an Oscar Or a nomination for cinematography Despite being a huge Oscar success I know one of the most insane Oscar snubs

[00:11:33] Considering that like The Prince of Tides was nominated for best cinematography No offense to the Prince of Tides It is a fine looking movie But it is stunning when you go like this is one of only three movies in history To win quote unquote To win picture director

[00:11:47] Actor actress screenplay Sure And then it only had two additional nominations Beyond that That sounds right You watch this movie and you're like every single element of this film Is so perfect And is so like film school in a box For that respective craft

[00:12:05] That you're like how did not get cinematography How did not get score Incredible score How did not win editing The first film of the sounds of the lambs is an Oscar movie Is like an It will never be replicated It's very strange Two years ago you thought

[00:12:23] Get out was going to have the sounds of the lambs Did I think it was going to win though You predicted that and you predicted it on microphone And you were like I think it's going to be the thing that happened with the sounds of the lambs

[00:12:31] It came close I mean one Oscar it was nominated for stuff But it was the same thing of like But also that was like an unprecedented incredible year for movies It turned out like 2017 I will say I think it lost editing to JFK

[00:12:43] I might give JFK that win That is fair JFK has famous editing And JFK was the Assumed Best picture juggernaut of that year It was I think the most nominated It was a huge success Oliver Stone had already directed Best picture and had won two best directors Correct

[00:13:05] And it had come out in Christmas time And it had a zillion famous people in it And John Williams took the score America's favorite movie star John F Kennedy And I had the cause And then I think that So that movie was like barreling towards Expected success

[00:13:25] And the sounds of the lambs Came out February It came out on Valentine's Day Of that year And Did really well but it was like a sleeper film That was A trashy genre movie Right on paper Based on like a best selling paper

[00:13:45] And a horror film, the genre they respect the least 100% And so there's all that sort of counting against it And I think what happened was that JFK got hobbled by The backlash of like Is this for real? Oliver Stone is a crackpot

[00:13:57] Like all that stuff started bubbling up And then also Oliver Stone had won Oscars already So it's not like there's some And then I think Yeah, it just like Silence became everyone was just like You know what? It's really good

[00:14:13] It was kind of like once JFK got hobbled This is Emily Vanderwerth by the way I was going to build a bridge To a point I wanted to make Cut me back No, no, no, you're in it Emily Vanderwerth from Vox From the Munich episode

[00:14:29] From the Alice in Wonderland episode Thank you for recovering From Futterwack and Exposure Oh my god And rallying enough to make it It usually takes people about six to eight months I went through a thing where I had to watch it once a day

[00:14:43] Then I was down to once a week Now I'm down to once a month, I think You can't go culture-y You have to go methadone Then you have to watch some else through the looking glass clips You can sort of start to like

[00:14:55] You have to fuck with time a little bit But I do think that when The Oscars, when JFK got sort of hobbled They weren't going to go for I think the other nominees were Bugsy and Prince of Tides They weren't going to go for those

[00:15:07] Because those didn't have the reviews So it was between Silence of the Lambs And Beauty and the Beast And weirdly, Silence of the Lambs is the more oscarine movie What a fucking five That is insane It's a good five because Bugsy is fun

[00:15:21] Bugsy is kind of down the middle And you know what, I stand corrected It's not a genre but animation Is the only type of film they respect less than horror 100% I mean, I believe the Concept at the time was That its nomination was its reward

[00:15:35] To hear it's a breakthrough nomination for an animated film Two director nominees were Non-picture directors Even though both those films Probably should have been non-picture best picture Can you tell me? Beauty and the Beast doesn't get a picture nomination And Streisand doesn't get a director nomination

[00:15:51] Which is a big deal People made a fuss about correctly The movie directed itself But the reason Streisand didn't get a best Director nomination is because of the two people Who came in 1991 1991 Two people come in One is the youngest best director nominee A phenomenon

[00:16:13] And the first African American nominee The best director He was 26? I think he was 24 The other, R.I.P. John Singleton The other is a guy who Established director who's a big deal Who made a gigantic hit that was a cultural phenomenon

[00:16:29] And I can't believe it was a nominee for best picture But he did get the best director nomination Interesting And has he had Other director nominations Or wins or is this like his one? Plenty of nominations, he's never won Plenty of nominations Oh fuck, Thelma and Louise?

[00:16:47] Like Thelma and Louise wasn't nominated Is bizarre Very weird Thelma and Louise was like a sensation Two lead actress nom's Which is insane I think that it's so difficult to pull off Two actors in one Shared lead category So daring that people Fuck with Category placement

[00:17:11] Geno Davis is really supportive Well like Prince of Tides and Bugsy And JFK to some extent Where the movies everyone was like They're gonna be the big Oscar players And then they kind of slid in And like Silence of the Lambs was the movie people actually loved

[00:17:27] It was a movie I think at the end of the day Everyone was like you know what, right I remember that movie, it was a year ago now And I still remember it But it also is that thing where like

[00:17:37] We'll get into all the nitty gritty of the movie And we'll talk about the controversies and all of that But just taken as A piece Of narrative visual storytelling It is pretty unimpeachable It is dark and profound And full of really interesting themes

[00:17:53] Some of which are from the books Some of which are original to the movie But it's also like great popcorn filmmaking So watchable I'm just gonna restate You can take any single element from this film And use it as a teaching tool

[00:18:07] Of like this is how you do this This is screen acting This is screen writing This is cinematography This is editing Everything is just like I mean and I forgot just how stacked Is where it's like Like Demi discovers like Colleen Atwood You know? Like makes her

[00:18:29] Casey Lemons is in it Right Christy Zia is the production designer Everyone on this is just like People who are just fully coming into their power That thing that is so exciting to watch Where everyone involved in this movie Is just figuring out how to do

[00:18:45] The first perfect job of their career It's pretty like It does just feel like that Lightning in a bottle thing And the way that we've been going through Demi in order like this It is so exciting to watch Like oh he's just built it all up

[00:19:01] Sure and use... This movie could have been directed by Ridley Scott Or someone and it would be a different movie It would probably be more of a hard boiled movie And it would not have that like Empathy And attention to character

[00:19:15] Like this is like Demi's got all these tools That I feel like a director Another director would not have been able to use for this movie Ridley Scott made his handle movie I have this like I'd love to hear you weigh in on this Griffin

[00:19:27] I have this sort of pet theory that people who are really good at comedy Are usually really good at horror I agree 100% Jordan Peele But I also think it is One of the reasons why By and large Many of the best superhero movies Have come from horror directors

[00:19:47] I think it is that very specific Sort of tonal balancing act You know? Like Shazam Shazam, the Rainy Spider-Man films Sure James Wong has acquitted himself well He made Aquaman But the man of Aqua But I think you know Superhero films are this very tricky balancing act

[00:20:07] Of tone and control And you know a mix of humor And tension action all of that But that's yes Comedy and horror are the two genres Where the director needs to have complete control Of the dial And know how to sort of turn it On the audience

[00:20:25] Because you're asking the audience to have a very specific Emotional Involuntary reaction On a scene by scene basis So it's about that build and release And that sort of like Camera work in this movie I mean not just like The photography itself You just go like

[00:20:45] You could just teach an entire semester at a film school That is this film muted Every week you just watch it And it's like Those medium shots But also all the camera movements are so expressive Without being overly showy The look of the film

[00:21:01] I feel like this is the fundamental mistake that Ridley Scott made Where he's like, oh we should make it look terrifying Because Hannibal Lecter is terrifying And the thing that's incredible is that this movie Is it looks kind of banal Sure, yeah It's about real people

[00:21:15] But it's not very stylized It's not picturesque I do think the problem with Hannibal Is one that book is so gothic It's terrible And Demi famously of course Reads that book and is like This is gross And Joni Foster says the same $25 million

[00:21:35] And it's in the bank account already Cool, gotcha So the book is sort of already nudging things in that direction But yeah and also the book has the problem of like Hannibal is very effective when he's In prison and is a little less effective

[00:21:48] When he just is like Running the Italian countryside What if I wore a fedora Obviously the TV show eventually figured out how to But that's a caged Hannibal in a way too Cause he's like trying to operate That show when they finally had him

[00:22:02] And he was finally on the loose and everyone knew his secret And all of that That section of the show Is when it's at its least interesting And it's also when they were like Every shot should look like a kaleidoscope Like when they start being like

[00:22:16] Let's make the show just look so crazy That that'll sort of you know Sustain the mood Do you have something I feel like I've never acknowledged On the podcast that I feel like You're a psychiatrist who eats people Well yes, that of course is true

[00:22:30] Should I keep that in? Representation matters Exactly, thank you, you get it Hannibal's psychiatrist Emily This was the bridge I was going to make In order to introduce you but it took me 30 minutes To talk about it But I was Last night while watching the movie

[00:22:50] Curious to see because As you said Since The last time you were on this podcast You have come out in transitions And you very early on said to us You would like to talk about this movie Because that is the sort of Messy part of this film's legacy

[00:23:08] Is its relationship to the trans Community So I was curious going into it to see if you had tweeted About this film Prior to your coming out Because you have written so well in the last year About Sort of the years of you

[00:23:24] Living sort of in denial with it Suppressing the voice inside of you The part of you that knew to some degree Always who you were And that in the last year it sort of been You know letting yourself actually be the person That you've always been

[00:23:38] Spewing everything all over the place Right And your writing on the subject has been Incredible, thank you But I was interested to try to find If you had Public statements about this film On Twitter before This year And a lot of them are the things like

[00:23:58] I can't believe this didn't get a cinematography nomination When Demi passed He's one of my favorite filmmakers Right, so that's what I was finding More and more just you talking about him being one of your favorite filmmakers But also I'd forgotten that you were One of the loudest

[00:24:14] Drum bangers during March Madness You were a huge fucking Were you always on the Demi train? I was like he's never gonna win He kept going Do the search David because there are literally like 80 tweets, there are four separate threads That are Emily just like hardcore campaigning

[00:24:30] Making the argument Watching it like vote by vote saying Like I know he's not gonna make it past this round I like this one though. I think Jonathan Demi Should direct the halftime show next year That's a good tweet

[00:24:42] I was just thinking about you know how they kept trying to make that gambit movie For years and years and years Jonathan Demi Would have directed the hell out of a gambit movie Oh shit We didn't have a lot of like Louisiana color

[00:24:54] You know what I mean, a lot of local Cajun Right It would have been like his last film It would have been his last film If you guys went from Ricky in the Flash to Gambit That's something if gambit had met Its original release date

[00:25:08] And they had hired Jonathan Demi It would have been his last film He would have gotten it made under the wire Yeah But I am curious Going into your viewing of this movie How you were gonna view it Through a new lens How did it sort of

[00:25:26] Change for you or did it not as much as you Feared or thought it might I will admit that some of the It's not even like Trans representation Because it's a different idea Of what gender transition could mean Yeah

[00:25:42] And the movie makes that very clear which I had forgotten The movie has dialogue From Dr. Hannibal Lecter Who has a PhD in psychiatry And a PhD in eating people I forgot that from an underground universe The film has the most intelligent Character even if he is

[00:25:58] A cannibal psychopath Right Clearly say he is not a transactual Right That it's more like He thinks that's what's going on with him But it's more he's crazy It's a sort of misplacement Right He wants to sort of be out of his own skin

[00:26:18] But at the same time and I'm gonna have more to say About this I'm sure throughout the episode At the same time it flirts with all this iconography Of trans people Of transition in ways that like Made me uncomfortable But here's where I think this succeeds

[00:26:32] In the way that a lot of other trans murderers This is a trope Have not succeeded Which is Jonathan Demi is such a human director He gives Buffalo Bill his humanity It's a diseased and horrible humanity But he is a person He is not a twisted freak

[00:26:48] He's not a boogeyman The thing that got the movie in trouble In a way is that he has those segments That are just Buffalo Bill And those are the segments that I feel like People obviously glombed onto the most And if he had just kind of like

[00:27:02] You know excised that And whatever Bill's just not really a character except Someone talk people talk about Maybe the movie would be worse I think But also regarded differently I don't want to be flipping about it The thing that was striking me watching it

[00:27:20] Especially because I had forgotten that they Outline a language so clearly And sort of consistently trying to define Like this is not transsexual There's even that line where she says Like transsexuals are docile Passive You know but like they very clearly say

[00:27:36] That does not fit a behavioural pattern So the movie Goes to lengths to try to Make that distinction clear But the thing that is sort of out of the movie's control Is the fact that it became such a phenomenon That's the thing I mean it's sort of right

[00:27:52] I don't think the movie would have had That amount of blowback Had it been like a 40 million dollar Sort of like you know On the level of like Manhunter in terms of like critical recognition But the fact that it became like this Big blockbuster phenomenon

[00:28:08] And then a best picture winner Means that like well now you have like a lot of dumb people Watching the movie Right I mean it's like the whole thing That like comes into play with like The destroying Culture once and for all

[00:28:22] Is that like you're in a very different position If you're making a movie for 60 million dollars That you know is going to be released Like a blockbuster versus a movie like this Where clearly no one involved thought That this was going to be some like Like four quadrants

[00:28:36] I mean to the point that Dilarentis who owned the rights I was like fuck you take it And had made Manhunter was like yeah I don't care He's like let me give you some advice Don't make Hannibal Lecter movies

[00:28:46] Right and then this is a hit and Dilarentis was like I've always owned all the Hannibal rights in their mind Yeah and we want to be clear We're recording this before it comes out It's coming out long after it's been Nation has taken form

[00:28:58] This is the day of Thursday night previews or whatever Before New York City burns to the ground It's also like around the impeachment And the fact that Trump is like tweeting about How like militias are going to rise up And it's just like it's Truly a terrifying time

[00:29:14] I also feel like every other president You'll hear that they like You know asked, requested a film print Wanted to watch movies Trump seems so disinterested in everything I don't think he's watched a single like Film Well he famously like has a short attention span

[00:29:29] Like his favorite movie is Bloodsport with The dialogue cut out or whatever right There was that weird anecdote that it was like It's Bloodsport but Eric fast forward through the Non-fighting speed His favorite movie is Citizen Kane because

[00:29:41] It's about a very very wealthy man who marries beautiful women Had a great life and lived a long life You've seen that interview where he says that right I mean he's just like it's incredible The things that guy accomplished I wrote about it for Vox

[00:29:53] In the summer of 2015 He was still like a curiosity Like oh look at this isn't this weird and there's like Oh fuck, there's a thing here that works A fully unironic person I mean this sort of gets into the silence Of the lambs thing where it's like

[00:30:07] Someone that dumb can watch Citizen Kane and go like This is an aspirational story of the American dream Of a man ascending To power, success And love and adoration When it's very clear that the film presents him As a villain and is about how he died

[00:30:23] Feeling totally empty inside And so in the same way Sans the Lambs comes out And it doesn't matter if you have characters go like This character is not trans Trans people do not behave this way This is not a pattern Because it's still like

[00:30:37] The dumbest people will view it how they want to And then as you said So much of it is that the iconography of this character Gets reappropriated into other things Like you think about how many homophobic 90s studio comedies Make buffalo bill jokes To some extent or another

[00:30:53] It's also just wild that this film Which has Clarice Starling Incredibly iconic character Hannibal Lecter Also has Buffalo Bill Who becomes an incredibly iconic character In his own right You can dress up like them They have a voice that you can do All of it

[00:31:13] It is so bizarre So here's a question for you When you saw this movie When it came out This movie in the year since as you rewatched it How did those elements Play to you in a point In your life where you were sort of Fighting

[00:31:31] Your own transness? Interesting, so the first time I saw this Was probably high school And the controversy around this movie Had filtered down to me as like Gay people are mad at it It became more of just a general LGBT community So you saw it knowing there was

[00:31:47] I knew I think the first Demi movie I ever saw Was Philadelphia And I knew that he had made that Because people, he was like I want to make a movie that has positive gay representation So you saw it post Philadelphia Yeah, I saw it probably 1996-97

[00:32:03] With a girlfriend or whatever And like That was at a time when I was like Not aware of these Things within myself But I was also like Anytime I read a thing where somebody magically transformed into a woman How does that work?

[00:32:19] Do you have like a how to somewhere? So I watched this and like But I just, I think I really just thought of him as a gay man I really do because those two things got Conflated

[00:32:29] Because I remember in high school I spent a lot of time being like I think I'm gay But I was like, but I just men I don't think they're very attractive Seems like a prerequisite You knew there was Hot David The Hot David train is like stalled

[00:32:45] You know, you're gonna get some coal and put it back in But yeah, so I was like I didn't understand What it meant To be gay and like there was this idea that like Gayness and transness Were kind of the same thing Right, just like a general otherness

[00:33:01] So like the fact that I was primarily attracted to women Was just like a thing that Got in the way of me figuring a lot of this out So I think when I first saw it I really didn't know it

[00:33:09] And I re-watched it maybe four or five years ago And I was like oh Okay, but I also was like less offended by it Than I thought I was going to be Every time I watch it I'm like This guy is not the worst example of this trope

[00:33:21] This guy's one of the better examples of this trope And like Because Demi is such an empathetic filmmaker Like you said, you know, that really is part of it Trans people can be murderers Like we can be murderers if we want to We can put that knife away

[00:33:35] You don't have to put anything I'm like I'm gonna take out a box of molls No, but it is I mean, you know I think that comes into play obviously with the Buffalo Bill character He could not control

[00:33:52] The way the movie sort of got taken away from him And You know given to the culture at large In the way we're like yeah I think a lot of the negative impressions I think about how many fucking Like Buffalo Bill impressions are Like problematic, you know

[00:34:08] Or like scenes where people do the talk Or whatever it is That are being stripped And sort of repurposed in a way that does Feel negative Like the really bad version of this is The Danish Girl Literally, like that is a movie that

[00:34:22] Reappropriates a lot of this image In a way it thinks is supportive and is horribly Horribly transphobic I could not stop thinking about The Danish Girl while watching this movie Really? Interesting I have not thought about The Danish Girl again because I took A serious psychological action to

[00:34:36] Bar it from my memory You genuinely like recloseted me came out and I was at Vox, so I was finally like, I had a little security and I was like, I can start thinking about this gender stuff. And I saw the Danish girl's like, nope, nope.

[00:34:48] I can't do that. Because you're just like, well, no, it's not this. Whatever this is is not what I meant. Unrepresentative. Yeah, yeah. It's such a terrible movie on most levels. That's why I was thinking because that's like the most sort of consciously Oscar-baity sort of movie

[00:35:03] and a movie that is going to such great pains to tell itself that it's being empathetic and humanist and sort of thoughtful and caring about it. And it's a movie that just seems to have no insight into its characters, no understanding, feels genuinely very exploitative

[00:35:19] and very unrepresented of everything I've heard from any transperson I've ever spoken to or read work from anything. And also his performance is terrible. His performance is so fucking bad. It is really hard to be cis and understand what it is to be trans.

[00:35:34] It's just like a gap. And I wrote a lot, I wrote about the transparennally. I wrote a lot about Jeffrey Tambor and how I think he got close for what a monster person he is. I think he got close, but he still was like,

[00:35:44] there was an element of, I am copying a thing. I'm saying other people do it, which is acting. Which is acting, sure. Or the element of acting. The problem is that acting is so close to what society thinks trans people are doing. Yes.

[00:35:57] Then it becomes like, oh, you're just, you know, you're Jared Leto in Dallas Buyer's club. Another terrible performance. Here's the thing I was thinking of. When I first dropped out of college and was auditioning for stuff, I had Law and Order SVU audition

[00:36:12] that was to play a trans girl where they were only seeing cis men to play the role. And there was like 15 sentences in the email devoted to we wanna be clear. The character is not gay. It is not a cross-dresser. Okay.

[00:36:30] They were like, people are reading the sides and not getting it. Because the concept was sort of like, in the media up until that point, so often just as you said, presented as, oh, this is someone playing a woman. You know? Yeah. That there wasn't really empathetic,

[00:36:50] sort of well-rounded trans characters in media and that people I guess were coming in for the audition and going like, oh, it's like a drag queen, right? Like that's what it is. Right. Even when you see like Felicity Huffman in Trans America, who's okay. Okay.

[00:37:04] There was still like a real focus on like, oh, she's got a penis. Like it's, you know, it's a fetishistic, gawkery thing that Demi just because of the nature of the kind of filmmaker he is, I don't think he had special insight

[00:37:18] into transgender people or gay people or anything. I think that he just like understood that Buffalo Bill was in pain. Buffalo Bill wanted something other than what he was. Buffalo Bill could not transcend himself. And like, he depicted that and he got,

[00:37:34] I don't want to say he got closer to depicting their trans experience because he didn't, but he got like, he got an element of it in a really weird and twisted way. I think yeah, I think, you know, as you're saying,

[00:37:44] the baseline empathy from which he always operates gives him a major leg up, you know? And that's something you can't really like develop in the way you can develop your skills as a visual filmmaker. He was born with, you know, by all accounts,

[00:37:59] a greater sort of pool, a greater depth of emotional sort of understanding than most people. So that's really his special sauce as a director is that he comes into it with that strength as a person. But I think the other element is when you read interviews with Demi,

[00:38:14] as I've been reading more and more stuff for this podcast, watching interviews with him and stuff. I want to listen to the commentary I forgot to. I was gonna try and pull that out. And it's him? It's him and Tally and Foster and the FBI guy.

[00:38:26] And Hopkins, it's like five of them. Yeah, but he is for, you know, the people who are viewed as like major kind of like otorist filmmakers, certainly the people who have won the Oscar, most of the people we've covered on this podcast,

[00:38:41] he might have the least ego of all of them or had. And he talks so openly about like, I hire people who know what they're doing better than I do. I give them a lot of free reign. If I hire cinematographer,

[00:38:56] it's because I know I'm not a cinematographer. I'm not trying to impose my thoughts on them. I'm collaborative, but like if someone's doing something good, I want them to take all the credit for it. And I think by an extension of that,

[00:39:08] he is very good or was very good at knowing what he didn't know and understanding what he could not inherently understand so that he could hand those elements over to other people and not just try to sort of, you know, impress his perception of things

[00:39:26] over the entire film. One of the complaints against Demi in the March Madness in the Reddit and I think Alex Ross Perry made this argument is that he doesn't have a big footprint. I'm gonna, yes. And I think that he doesn't have a signature like shot.

[00:39:41] He doesn't have a signature shooting style. I would say he has a signature shot, the close-ups. I think the close-ups feed into his signature approach. Which is all of his movies are about the transactional nature of human relationships. And he understands that every scene is between two people

[00:39:59] and it's about who's giving, who's taking and who's getting and who's, you know. I mean, this is his masterpiece in that regard. And like that, like he realizes this is a horror movie but it's a horror movie about the banality of like horror and like how it's just,

[00:40:11] horror is always just two people and one is stabbing somebody. If I can quote you to you and read a couple of your tweets from earlier this year when you were banging the Demi drum. And this was directly in response to this, right?

[00:40:24] I mean, you're pointing out like, you know, people saying he doesn't fit in as a blank check director. He feels so terribly about the LGBT pushback to tons of lamps. He commits to the studio to fund the first major studio film about the AIDS crisis

[00:40:36] and it wins Tom Hanks and Oscar and it's a hit. Philadelphia imperfect but it's a blank check that clears. Airtight argument there, right? But then as you sort of said here, what is Demi signature? What makes him interesting? Demi is one of the most radically humane

[00:40:48] and empathetic directors who have ever lived. He loves humans and the shit we do in all our strength and all our weaknesses. Demi is the director who, whenever he tried, he could do it. Music videos, documentaries, features, TV pilots, live TV. He just thought people were fascinating

[00:41:01] and made great art accordingly. It's very appropriate PTA, the DNA splice of Demi and Altman loves him so. Now I think that's a really other strong point when people talk about like, why doesn't he have a signature style? Which I disagree with a little bit.

[00:41:15] Not disagreeing with you but the people who say that. It's not a Scorsese style. No, it's not showy. Well I think that's the big point is that it's not that he was a chameleon who adapted to whatever he was doing

[00:41:27] but he tried to engage with the material first as a human and then figured out the style that best benefited the story being told in the most sort of emotionally intelligent way possible. So you look at Sounds the Lambs which is very stylish in a lot of ways

[00:41:45] but also compared to most crime thrillers, most movies of this ilk feels so stripped down and almost neo-realist. When in fact there is a lot of crazy heightened elements in terms of the actual filmmaking of what he's doing. But it's like, you know. That's me eating something.

[00:42:02] He never has a camera movement that isn't entirely motivated. I love his camera movements though. You know and it's like he's just like this really fucking elegant magician where it's like I'm just gonna bring your eyes right over to the thing that you need to pay attention to

[00:42:17] right at this moment. His camera movements in this movie are always, I don't wanna look at this thing but I have to look at this thing. It hangs back and then it goes, whoop! And you even feel the tension in the sort of,

[00:42:28] I mean it's a lot of handheld movements, you know? And they're fairly smooth but you can feel the actual physical presence of a person reluctantly lurking towards or swinging around to. I mean it also has like one of the most iconic, like five of the most,

[00:42:43] the shot of her in the elevator, that opening right at the opening, surrounded by the boys and she's a short person, Jodie Foster. Very little. The shot of, any shot of like Hannibal leaning in when you see him reflected in the glass and everything like, ah.

[00:43:02] But that's like another thing that's kind of stunning about this movie that I was like am I gonna roll my eyes a little bit watching it now? Which is it has now become such a big thing for straight white male directors

[00:43:14] to make movies about the way that women are impressed within society. To be like look I get it. And very often, even if their intentions are correct, it's like they put their foot on the gas way too hard. You know?

[00:43:26] And this is a movie where like every single scene is affected by the fact that she's a woman but it's almost always affected in terms of body language or in terms of blocking. It is very rarely directly stated in the text of the script.

[00:43:44] This whole movie, its theme is again, transactional relationships between men and women and it never says anything about it. It's just like this is a movie about what it is to be a woman in this world. Which I love in her relationship with the Scott Glenn character.

[00:43:57] Where in the book is sexual, in the book they have more of like an affair and he takes that out of the movie or I don't know if him or Ted Talley decided to do that but like that's not in this movie.

[00:44:08] No, neither of them ever acknowledged where he, I mean there's that one scene where he kind of acknowledges like yes, I'm using you to excite Lecter because I know you will and like most of my guys he would just shut down. He says that.

[00:44:19] That you're pretty in a way where he will at least give you the time of day. But she never has a speech where she's like, you use me. Which like so many movies would have that moment where she sort of like wags her finger in his face

[00:44:31] and he's like what are you gonna do? The only other moment that makes it explicit is the moment when they're in the car driving back after they do the autopsy. And Scott Glenn's like taking a nap and then he wakes up and is like,

[00:44:43] I really upset you back there when I said the thing about us not discussing in front of women, right? And she was like yeah, and he's like, you understand, I just had to throw these guys off my scent. And she was like it matters what you say.

[00:44:53] He's great, I mean she's amazing obviously. But like what a perfect scene and what a great encapsulation of Demi which is like it matters what you say. Like in an era where people get so defensive when their work is criticized, Demi took the sort of the complaints about

[00:45:15] Sansa the Lambs and was like, I'm gonna make an entire movie to try to positively counter the effects of what this might have done in terms of LGBT perception. His conclusion from this was he wasn't ashamed of Buffalo Bill, he didn't think of Buffalo Bill

[00:45:30] as like a gay trans, bisexual, whatever. But he was like, I didn't realize how few positive representations of gay people there are. And he's like, I'm gonna make one. Like what a dude, right guys? I did wanna like you talking,

[00:45:45] so I watched this movie a lot after I first saw it. And when I sort of when I was coming out I was like, I used to watch The Matrix a lot. I wonder if that was anything. So when I was watching this last night

[00:45:57] and it was as a matter of fact, when I was watching this last night, it was like, I watched this a lot. Did I feel something for Buffalo Bill? I was like, no. It was for Clarisse. When I saw Clarisse I was like,

[00:46:06] oh, this is how I perceive the world. But of course I didn't fucking know that. I was like 15. But it was just like, oh, I get this. I get how she sees the world, how she interacts with it. Yeah, and how the world interacts with her.

[00:46:19] I mean, the movie is so good at like, anytime she walks into a room, without overstating it, without culling to a bunch of close ups, without having dialogue and making too much of a meal out of it, really showing the way the temperature of the room changes.

[00:46:36] Whether it's because these guys are sexually attracted to her, whether it's because they can't believe that she's in this room. She seems unqualified. They think she's at risk. They're intimidated by her. Whatever it is, every scene is people in some way

[00:46:51] being affected by the fact that she seems so outside of the person who is usually doing this job. Have you guys talked about Foster on this show at all? Because this is like, she goes hard after this role. I think we've covered a Foster before. Is that possible?

[00:47:04] Is that possible? We've never covered a Foster. I feel like we haven't. I don't believe so. Talked about her. Let's take a quick look at her, Femography, no. We've not. I mean, and it's crazy because this is her second Oscar. It is, yes.

[00:47:18] You know, and someone where like the first Oscar was like, oh, that's nice. She graduated. She's not a child star anymore. But also it was somewhat of a surprise. She was pretty young winner. And then, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then just three years later,

[00:47:31] she wins a second Oscar because it's kind of like... Undeniable. Yeah. I mean, like I don't like Hank's performance in Forrest Gump. Yeah. But he won the Oscar and I think he won the Oscar because people were like, well, I mean, that movie is him.

[00:47:43] He has to win, right? You know, even though he just won. Sometimes those multiple winners, I mean, Kevin Spacey being another one where like you're kind of like, why the fuck did he win? He just won like, and it was just at the time people were like,

[00:47:54] well, that's he has to win. It was just some weird overriding thing. If you think this is the best picture of the year, it is entirely based around his performance. Kind of the Green Book thing kind of. Yeah. Like, yeah. Yeah. I mean honestly, that's why Mahershala,

[00:48:05] because everyone who voted for best picture then has to by extension think that's the best performance of the year. Right. And it's not a showy performance. It is not the kind of performance that usually... No, Jody's. No, Jody. It's like, it is not the kind of performance

[00:48:17] that usually wins best actresses. No. Because usually best actresses are screaming and plates throwing. So 100%. Yeah. Yes, because most of the movie is her in extreme close-up, trying to show as little emotion as possible. Right. Trying to sell Steeley to whoever she's talking to. 100%.

[00:48:33] And it's those close-ups that are her friend because she can do the flicker of an eye. She had like... The little trembles in her voice and in her face and all that. I mean, obviously she has like one of the great Oscar monologues or exchange,

[00:48:46] you know, the silence of the Lambs model. You know, like that is... Right. Anyone would remember that coming out of the movie, but it's not a big yelling performance. But also, yes, that's... It's a big monologue on paper that is like,

[00:49:01] oh man, this is a home run Oscar nomination slam dunk. Sure. But 99 out of 100 people would have gone much bigger with that monologue. Yes. And 99 out of 100 actors, directors would have demanded. Demanded big. Right. Covered it a different way. Cry something, right? Like I don't know. Right.

[00:49:18] I mean, she's really recounting it as sort of like absolute trauma. Yes. You know, I mean she's fairly... And also he's found this thing very quickly, which is his skill. Right. Because Crawford's immediate warning is like, don't let him in your head. Yeah.

[00:49:34] And he's like, yeah, I found the box. Let's open the box. And she's like, no, I don't wanna open that box. I wanna do this thing. She's like, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. We're gonna open this box. Right. Oh, Hannibal Lecter would have had a field day with Old Me.

[00:49:43] I mean, well, that's the thing. I mean, he's like obviously Hannibal Lecter, spoiler alert, does like to eat people. He eats them up. No good for your back, don't do it. But he is also, there's the thing, right? And then the cop is talking about Buffalo Bill

[00:49:57] when he talks about like, is he a vampire? Right? But like that's what Hannibal is. He's like a vampire. He like wants to eat your feelings too. He loves it. Like it's his favorite thing. If he thinks you're like a gauche,

[00:50:10] you know, idiot, like a chilton or whatever, he has like no use for you. He just wants to like eat your body. Right. If you're like Clarisse, he's like, I want to like open up your brain and like your emotions. Well, they also like everyone warns her like,

[00:50:24] you know, this is the thing he's gonna do. Don't give him an answer. Sure, sure, sure. He gets inside your head, you're fucked. Right. And they sell it as like a, he will weaponize it in some way. He will use it to destroy you

[00:50:34] or get himself out of prison or whatever it is. Right. Weirdly though, he's a mentor. Well, that's the thing. That's what this relationship is. The duality is what makes it so great. But I also think the thing is, he misses getting to do his job. Sure.

[00:50:52] Like, you know, he wants to get in the people's head. Could have been a chef. That's the biggest thing. Yeah. Good, good. Yeah. Or a butcher even. Yeah. Because the books make this clear and then the show made it very clear.

[00:51:03] It's like he eats people he thinks are rude. He doesn't like rudeness and then he can eat you up. Or he eats people to like just sort of gain their pet, like he'll eat other killers, things like that. But the cannibalism got in the way

[00:51:16] of his psychiatry career. But with Will Graham or whoever, he's not necessarily like I wanna eat you up. Yeah, he wants to utterly dismantle Will Graham. In the show it's very explicit. It's a homoerotic thing where he's like,

[00:51:29] if I can get you to fall in love with me then you will just totally fall apart. And that's why Tumblr exploded for that show came out. But that's like, I guess what I'm trying to say is, psychiatry for him isn't a cover.

[00:51:41] It's not means to an end. I think he genuinely gets off on the fact that he is this fucking good at it. And the worst punishment for him in terms of being in prison is that he doesn't have access to people he can pull apart that way.

[00:51:55] And the thing with Buffalo Bill is like, he's like, yeah, I know that guy. He's lame. You know, he thinks he's this but I immediately figured him out and like that he was no fun. Right, Anthony Held is boring to him. Well Anthony Held right,

[00:52:11] I wanna eat you up cause you're awful. Right, so Clarice is like- He is a gauche crass man, which he hates. Right, Clarice is for the first time in a long time him having someone who he can really chew on, no pun intended.

[00:52:25] Like this is an interesting psychological- You intended that pun. Pun intended baby. I was kidding, that pun was intended. You intended it. I intended it. No but it's like for him, I mean I think the Quiddipro Quo thing

[00:52:38] is literally like, I need to get something out of this and what I wanna get out of it is like, let me play my favorite sport again. Like let me do a couple of rounds in the batting cage. I can't figure you out and you're interesting.

[00:52:51] The elements don't line up. You're four foot 11, you sound like Holly Hunter. You're still in training. They sent you here and you seem to be a lock box of emotions. Right, yeah. But you're also not playing hard ass with me. You're not trying to be a man.

[00:53:08] You're not trying to be a ball buster. What's your fucking deal? How did you end up here? In Red Dragon slash Manhunter, that's like about, we're at the tail end of his relationship with a law enforcement guy. And so when Will goes to see him,

[00:53:24] he's almost like old boyfriends. He's like, that's the same awful cologne and Will is clearly uncomfortable because it's like, yeah, we did the whole thing. We sucked each other dry. And Will is like the- And Clarice is like new, you know.

[00:53:39] Will is like the TV show that he's been watching for years and years and still watches out of obligation, but he's pretty much like, they've gotten all the narrative juice he's gonna get out of that thing. Clarice is like, you imagine the first interesting person

[00:53:51] he has been able to have extended conversations with. Look, we all love Frankie Faizani. He's great. He's very charming in this movie. Yes. But there's only so much conversation there having I guess. You know what's a thing I love that this movie does?

[00:54:03] Almost every actor with more than three lines is billed in the opening credits. Yes. Oh, great opening credits too. That font, can I get a t-shirt with that font on it? You know, the black letters with the white border? Super Yucky. I saw Chris Isaac there.

[00:54:18] I was like, wait, Chris Isaac's in this? And his character name is literally like FBI team leader. I believe it is SWAT command. Yeah, and Daniel van Bargen. Daniel van Bargen, Roger Corman is in this movie. He is billed. Right place in the FBI director. Yes, he does.

[00:54:31] Obviously you have like a classic Demi guys like Charles Napier and... Tracy Walter. And what's the guy? You know, Dick Miller, the guy who's in everything. Who's the funeral director? What's that guy? The funeral? I think that's Tracy Walter. Who's the guys, Bob the Goon and Batman? Mm-hmm.

[00:54:47] No, he was, well, I get faces mixed up. Okay. This is Dick Miller is in this, right? I don't know if Dick Miller's in it. Did I make that up? I think he made that up. He's in something else I just watched. I take it back. Different Demi?

[00:55:00] Down to Demi. Okay. Yeah, I just, I love that. I love a movie that like loves its actors enough. That it's like these people deserve opening credit. And he's an actor director. Like the actors love to work with him. And like he gets great fucking casts.

[00:55:19] From 1980 to 1991, he only has one film that does not get an acting nomination. And he gets four wins. Four wins if you're including this? He gets four acting wins. It's Tom Hanks, Steve Burmian. Oh, you only mean over his career? Yeah, I'm saying, right.

[00:55:35] So that's pretty crazy that it's like for a decade he only makes one film that doesn't get an acting nomination. And it shoulda. Right, it shoulda gotten fucking three acting nominations. That's your favorite film, I believe, right? It's your favorite Demi, something like that. That's your number one.

[00:55:49] Yeah. It is crazy that like Leona didn't get a nomination for that script, that can nominate for that damn thing. We'll dive into that. We'll have already Dof. We will have Divin. Yes, but yes, he was such an actor's director and was such an actor's friend.

[00:56:07] And I feel like the Demi close-up thing is like when people see movies that have close-ups this good, I think they first think, wow, this movie's well shot. And then they think, oh, wow, these actors are good that they can hold a close-up this well.

[00:56:21] And the thing they don't think about is especially if it's like first-person POV that is a very, very vulnerable thing to ask an actor to do. It is incredibly unnatural to do a scene where you are staring at the camera rather than your scene partner.

[00:56:37] Or even staring at your scene partner for the camera is right next to their face. It is super fucking uncomfortable. Yes, I talked to you. And unnatural, it kills the reality of what you're doing so often, you're trying to be aware where the camera is,

[00:56:50] but kind of ignore it and not look at it. And in order to get that down, which like Barry Jenkins is the heir apparent who has nailed that in the modern day, it's there's a reason why those two guys are known

[00:57:02] for their sense of empathy and their love of actors and their protection of actors and of the process and all of that. Because in order to make those shots work, you need to create a very specific kind of environment and a level of trust.

[00:57:15] I asked Barry about it when I interviewed him and he talked about how like for Beale Street, Kiki had never been in a movie before basically, and you're asking her to, right. No, but she was less disturbed by it. Oh, interesting.

[00:57:27] She was not really used to like movie acting. She didn't have to like untrain herself. Right, whereas like Stephon James, like the other actors were more like, it's right unsettled by that, like right into the camera. Which like both of those directors use those shots

[00:57:41] to convey very specific emotions and place you in those moments. So like in Sansa Lam's, it's almost always someone feeling terror at what they're watching and they're having to play it against a lens. You know, that's a tough thing to do. I think what this movie understands

[00:57:57] is that to be in Clarice's point of view, you can never literally be in her point of view. Yes. Like the famous, of course, the famous shot in the last sequence when Buffalo Bill is like reaching out for her.

[00:58:07] And it's just like you become her in that moment because you understand her as like an object of what he wants. Similarly to how when we see her from Hannibal's point of view, this is the thing I read.

[00:58:19] Like he said, he never had her look at the camera. Because then she's always like five degrees off. Yeah, yeah. Whereas when you look at Hannibal, he's looking at the camera because that orients you in what she's seeing. Totally. So it's a fascinating way of

[00:58:33] tricking you into having her point of view without really doing her point of view. He was a very, very intuitive filmmaker because you look like the sort of like visual language on display in this movie is insane and so fucking complicated and so risky

[00:58:49] and you're like this should not work. You should not be able to cover scenes in this way. But you get the sense that he just sort of grappled onto every scene, every line, dialogue, every shot and what's the best way to convey this. Sure.

[00:59:02] And he always had a really good understanding of what this was. His analysis of what he was trying to get at was really good. And this is like the movie where it just totally coalesces

[00:59:11] and he just figures out like when do you need to be in her shoes? When do you need to be seeing her through someone else's eyes? You know? Mm hmm. It's always the right decision and it's always to the right degree.

[00:59:23] And I think it speaks to another one of his strengths. The idea of collaboration is he saw how much Jodie Foster wanted to be in this movie. She was not his first choice. Yeah, she was like his fifth choice. If she wants to do it this badly,

[00:59:34] she's probably got something. So let's do it. Let's do some context. Thank you for queuing that up. Thank you, Emily. This book, the book came out in 88. Yeah. And it was a big hit. Right. Good book. It's a great book. David Foster Wallace called it basically

[00:59:46] the best American novel of the decade. Does the book... He was obsessed with it and would read it constantly. Come Out After Man Hunter is released. Yes, it does. The move. Comes a couple of years after Man Hunter. Man Hunter, obviously we covered it on this podcast

[00:59:56] and it kind of went nowhere. It was not a big hit. Yeah. Orion Pictures, which by the time this movie came out was basically defunct, right? Or getting close to defunct. Yeah. Yeah. But they optioned the film with Gene Hackman who is going to direct it. That's crazy.

[01:00:13] You didn't know that? No. Hackman I think wanted to play Jack Crawford and direct it. That was the take. That's so telling for like a movie star at that point in his career to go like, well, Jack Crawford's the hero of the movie. I don't...

[01:00:28] I'm not going to play Hannibal Lecter because that's the monster. Yeah. Maybe he just thought he could. I don't know. But also when you read the book and of course people point out like Hannibal's not in a ton of the movie even though

[01:00:38] he is totally a lead and it's indisputable. I will get into this. Please remind me to get into this later. Okay. Do you just agree with me? No, I agree with you but I can't name with fucking stats. Good, thank you. I did the fucking work last night.

[01:00:52] Because the stat is wrong. The stat is wrong. It's hellishly wrong and it's been repeated endlessly. The stat is wrong. We will circle back around to it. But I brought my fucking numbers. I did the fucking work. Everyone's wrong. Everyone is wrong. Well it's one of those...

[01:01:03] The screen time things is people clicking whenever they're actually on screen or whatever. Thank you. We'll get to it. So bad. Hackman wants to make the movie. Dino Dillerent. Did Hackman ever direct a movie? I don't think so. That's so weird.

[01:01:13] I mean he is a legend and we do stand. He's a legend Mr. Wayne. Right. Exactly. Do we stand? Oh, okay. Love Gina. Have you seen his diners, Dry Vins and Dives performance? No. Guy Fieri. Sounds good. Guy Fieri one season. It's like 2008 or something. What?

[01:01:30] Once he goes to a place in Santa Fe he's like sitting down talking to the customers. One of them is Gene Hackman. It is not entirely clear that Guy Fieri knows. Sure. It's Gene Hackman. Obviously they figured out once he signed a release or whatever.

[01:01:41] He just thinks like oh it's an old man getting brunch. Yeah and like Gene Hackman's like yeah I like the breakfast here and like... It's his, I believe on IMDB it's his last credit. That would be. That would be his most recent guy.

[01:01:52] He might go to his grave with that being his last. I'm always surprised when people don't know about that. Like yeah there's a, if you look on YouTube, Gene Hackman, Diner, Dry Vins and Dives, yeah. That is incredible. Okay they bring in Ted Talley to write the adaptation.

[01:02:06] Ted Talley was not a big screenwriter at the time but whatever, I don't know. He'd like wrote like White Palace, I don't know. And he writes the script and Hackman is like this is too violent. I don't want to make this and withdraws. Sure.

[01:02:22] Which love you Gene but what the fuck? Right. Like you didn't see this coming, whatever. It doesn't matter. The funding falls through. Orion instead of like giving up is like no this is interesting. The script is interesting. Let's find another director.

[01:02:37] They get Demi, Demi reads it and is like this is great I'll do it and it just after that it's like rapid. They just go. You'll read interviews with Demi collaborators and by and large in the Demi camp at that time

[01:02:50] people were like Jonathan why the fuck are you making this movie? Right. Well because he. Not because the script wasn't good but they were like this seems complete out of whack with every thing you've been building in your career. You don't seem like someone who wants to spend

[01:03:01] this much time in darkness. Right. You know? He goes to. His two least successful movies from a creative standpoint up until that point in time are the two that are thrillers. Last embrace and. And what's fighting mad. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

[01:03:15] So he goes to Michelle Pfeiffer who he just worked with. Jody Foster is like I want to do it and he's like I'm going to talk to Michelle who he just you know did marry with the mob with. Married to the mob. She turns it down.

[01:03:26] She didn't like the subject matter. She does say it was a difficult decision. Sure. He went to Meg Ryan who turned it down too violent. Went to Laura Dern who the studio said no thank you. Because I guess Laura Dern is pretty young at that point.

[01:03:40] You're Laura Dern's kind of like. And she was so dewy at that point. Like I saw Blue Velvet the other day revival screening. And you forget how much of the Laura Dern like thing for so long was just like innocence encapsulated. Sure. Yeah. Right. Like even.

[01:03:57] That was Lynch's original like use of her. Right. But even through like Jurassic Park is just like this is someone who's just like a ball of light and excitement for dinosaurs. God I fucking love her in Jurassic Park. She's so good in Jurassic Park. So.

[01:04:09] Yeah I will say I will say though I think those other three people all probably would have won the Oscar playing this part. I think so. Yeah. If if as long as it had all jailed I would agree with you. Pfeiffer for sure.

[01:04:20] Pfeiffer would have won the Oscar. I mean that's the thing about Pfeiffer is just outrageous that she doesn't have an Oscar. Yeah. It's outrageous. Right. Did she lose was she one of the ones who lost to Foster the first time? If so. She might have been in supporting.

[01:04:32] No I think you're right but if so what a fuck up. Because that first Foster Oscar you can give that to Foster should not have won that Oscar. Yeah. No offense to her. No but that's one of. Glenn Close lost that one and Michelle Pfeiffer

[01:04:44] was in supporting I think. I need to find this. Okay Glenn Close you're right it's when Michelle is for because Michelle should have won for Fabulous Baker Boys that's her greatest performance. Yeah. It's a great movie. Your mom's shirt move all the time?

[01:04:56] Along with I know where I'm going. For sure. Those are the top two. Yeah. Foster Glenn Close for Dangerous Liaisons. Melanie Griffith for Working Girl which was a big one. Yeah. At the time. Yeah. Meryl Streep for I Didn't Go Ape My Baby.

[01:05:08] And Sigourney for a Girl Is in the Mist that weird two nomination year of hers. That's a weird year of a bunch of people who seemed like inevitable Oscar win in the next decade and then still have not won.

[01:05:19] Like Sigourney was just like oh Sigourney is going to win any day now. Right. Michelle Pfeiffer is going to win any day now. They will continue dominating Glenn Close is going to win any day now. She's kind of right.

[01:05:27] I think the wife will pull it out this year. I think this year. What if they just resubmit it every year? They're like the wife she's still a wife. Yeah. Um so. Still a wife. She's still a wife. Still the wife.

[01:05:39] What if they what if they re-release it? What if she remarried? The wife too. What if they re-release it and just call it the wife too, still a wife? And what if Glenn- And otherwise the film is unchanged. Just different title card.

[01:05:48] What if Clint Eastwood made the wife too? Like that would be a great fucking movie. That would be it. I would love to see that movie. He would get it. They real wrote it her. Nobel Prize jerks. They wouldn't let her be a wife.

[01:06:01] All she wanted was to be a wife. This is the thing is like he made changeling. Changing is the same thing with it. It's not like it's only the Richard Jules of the world that Clint Eastwood wants to be like they railroaded him.

[01:06:12] You know like any as long as they've been railroaded Clint is intrigued. Clint distrusts everyone but his sweet spot is when the person who's being railroaded is someone who should ostensibly be hailed as a hero. Right. Yes 100%. Otherwise. Which is true of the wife. Right. From the wife.

[01:06:28] Totally. So she should be hailed as a hero and given a Nobel Prize. Fuck Clint Eastwood should have directed the wife. There could have been like a Nobel Prize scene like in Sully where the board is like well I don't think you wrote these books

[01:06:38] and she's like let's get serious now. I thought you were saying that Sully won the Nobel Prize which is true. He won the Nobel Prize. Yeah he swept the board that year. Sully so fucking good. He won the MacArthur genius grant. I hope Sully wins this.

[01:06:50] Did he get a Googfell? Yeah he got a Googfell. This is Ben's new thing. This new thing is he's gonna get a Googfell. Yeah 2020. And he plans to get it in the field of calling it a Googfell. What were you gonna say?

[01:07:05] Do you think Sully's gonna win Best Picture this year? I feel like this might finally be its year. It's over dude because you go four years in a row without it winning Best Picture is pretty embarrassing. Look look look. It's a blood on the academy.

[01:07:16] When we win Best Picture if they had the Oscars in July. I should have put it in July. Fleabag won the Emmy. Total. It's over. It's time for Sully. I think that that is what the universe is telling us. 100%. Yes. For the role of Dr. Hannibal Lecter. Okay.

[01:07:34] Jonathan Demi wanted one man and one man only. I gotta guess this. Do you know? I think I know. Go on. I'm forgetting it's funny right? I guess so. It's obvious. It is the obvious choice at the time. It is the obvious choice at the time?

[01:07:48] I would say so. Do you know who I'm talking about? Yeah I mean it's very much a guy who got approached for a zillion of these kinds of roles. Who was it? John Connery. Oh of course. You know like and instead of Scotland he found a Welshman

[01:07:59] but like you know what I mean? Like that sort of like big gravitas actor. Yeah. Older you know will command the camera right? That would not have worked though. No. Because you're like. Well it's a very different movie. But you're like.

[01:08:12] And of course Brian Cox and other Scotts would had already played him. But you're like Fox, Foster's perfect but the Pfeiffer movie would have worked. The Meg Ryan movie would have worked. Who was the other one you said? Lord Dern. Who knows about that?

[01:08:22] Was there one other non-Lord Dern one? She would have worked. Anyway I mean she's the best. She would have been great. It would have set her career on a whole different trajectory. Very much so. Yes. Yeah. Connery though the movie would have folded in on itself.

[01:08:35] It would have been Finding Forester. It would have. Literally. Right. You just would have been like. You're on a cop now dog. Or even in the best case scenario. Your eyes open boy. What if you'd said that keep your eyes open for Buffalo Bill. He's out there.

[01:08:50] Best case scenario is it would have become The Hun for Red October. The game is on. You know like it would have been like. He is good at math. But that's my point. It's like it would have been like Sterling Popcorn Entertainment.

[01:09:00] That suffers a little bit from having to fold into his movie Star Magnets. Instead of with Starling Popcorn Entertainment. I let myself out. This is outrageous. I'd be like 18 terrible jokes. Perfect joke. Perfect joke. Perfect joke. Perfect 10 comedy points.

[01:09:13] I mean and then there's this thing where it's like other actors considered for the role which I feel like is probably just like I don't know some studio list they found. Yeah. Al Pacino. Who in 1991 or whatever would have gone hand. Right. He would have been crazy. Yeah.

[01:09:29] Robert De Niro who probably would have gone the other way. Right. Really locked in. Dustin Hoffman. I mean what the fuck this is a stupid list. Derek Jacoby that says curveball. Weird. Little more of like a theatrical presence type guy. And Daniel Day Lewis. But.

[01:09:45] I don't think any of those work. I think Jacoby would have been too close to what Brian Cox at all. Yeah. Yeah. Don't get anybody new manhunter. Yeah. That is fair. Now Anthony Hopkins was a guy who was nowhere. Right.

[01:09:58] He had had this young career that was promising. Right. Where he's in you know a lot of theater. And then he's in like. Magic and the dresser and the. Magic and Bridge Shufar and then he's in The Elephant Man which he's fantastic in. Right. But that's 81. But that's 81. 80.

[01:10:11] 80 cheese. So you know that's like a decade ago. Right. And then it's like I don't know fucking I mean the bounty which was kind of a famous flop but then like the dawning a chorus of disapproval or her to this. Yeah he's kind of just in the margins.

[01:10:25] He's a nobody. Yeah. Like he's a nobody that's. Right. Right. But he was like in that position of like this is someone that everyone agrees is a good actor. But he's not a movie star and doesn't have any clout. Which is probably one reason they can get him.

[01:10:39] Because I guess a lot of these bigger actors are probably like either like too gross or not he's a supporting character. Anyone who's too established I think would be. Afraid to take on this role. Yeah. And have it fight with their star persona.

[01:10:51] List that you read and knowing that Hannibal is supposed to be European just vaguely. You're right he's supposed to be right. Would Pacino have done a Euro trash accent. Oh boy. Did we get deprived of that. He would have been so good.

[01:11:05] Pacino come on you would have killed it. Yeah. Come on do it. But it's the same. I hate his liver. Bottle beans and rice cantey baby. Closer come closer. Baldwin talks about Hun for Red October and he was like it was such a big deal. Clancy was huge.

[01:11:28] Baldwin's a real baby face when he's making that. Right. Right. Jack Ryan was so huge he was like I remember getting on a plane and seeing that every other person was reading a Jack Ryan novel and going like holy shit I'm about to be the next

[01:11:41] massive iconic character and he was like and then all of that went out the window when they hired Connery because the movie became Connery's show. The entire thing became in service of Connery not because he was a diva but because he is this

[01:11:55] like supernova you know all powerful commanding. 100% he's a screenplay. Only a couple years removed from an Oscar win himself. Right. Like he has become like grand old man Connery. Right but also that he's just like yeah I'm gonna use my voice.

[01:12:09] And the characters are Russian everyone talks about him being Russian and everyone's like we're not even going to pretend it's Connery you know what you pay him to do. That's the whole thing. The same with he was like I'm from Chicago. I'm a Chicago gangster.

[01:12:20] That was the wonderful era of just actors being like Kevin Costner yeah your Robin Hood whatever you could just do your Kevin Costner. Right he sounds like he's from Oklahoma. Yeah I do want to note that producer Ben has left the room and I am now producer M.

[01:12:33] You are producer M. Wow. That is true. The divine producer M. But yes I think like Connery would have done Connery and it would have been very appealing but he would not have submitted himself to a character. Sure.

[01:12:49] It would have looked like Sean Connery and sounded like Sean Connery and he probably would have gone like well audience just won't accept me going this far. I think it could have worked it wouldn't have been as good of a movie. It'd be a different movie.

[01:13:00] It would be after October you'd be like this is like a perfect piece of like there's a really fucking solid thriller it would not have been the transcendent film that it is. I would argue. Also Connery is like a big burly guy. Yes. He's 6'2 and he's burly.

[01:13:12] Yeah. Which is probably which is more how I mean Cox is a big burly guy. I don't know if he's that tall. He's pretty tall. He's pretty tall. He's like Anthony Hopkins is quite small. Yeah. He's short. Yeah.

[01:13:22] And in the movie does not present him as sort of like a physical specimen exactly. No one has like these very delicate blue eyes. The eyes are incredible. Yeah. Like you know like he's more commanding as a result. Right.

[01:13:35] Like you're scared of him because of the way he uses his voice, his sort of stillness in the room you know what I mean. I mean like the opening shot where she's going down the hallway and he's just like

[01:13:45] standing there it's like literally there's like a red carpet that she's walking down and he's like at the end of it. Like it's so theatrical and he's so theatrical without it being theatrical. That he's like waiting for you that it's like the Mona Lisa like following.

[01:13:56] It's the greatest scene in a movie. I have been right. I don't know. Yeah. I mean there are like five scenes in this movie that are arguably the greatest scene in the movie. I know but like the movie is like Jack Crawford's like

[01:14:07] Clarie if she's running I love the running. Yeah. But like things like Clarie say go talk to Hannibal Hector but be careful. She's like okay she goes see him and we're like what's this movie going to be about? Like no it's like a thing or something's going on.

[01:14:20] There's like serial killer on the loose and like she meets with Sheldon you're like yeah. And then like once that scene starts you're like oh am I watching the greatest movie ever made? What the fuck is this? Yeah. It's structured like a rom-com but it's a horror movie.

[01:14:31] That's the reason people were like oh I want to see Clarie's in Hannibal fuck but like no. It's one of those things that people thought they wanted to see. I mean it's from Hannibal the novel right.

[01:14:38] It's like Thomas Harris is like this is what you wanted right and everyone's like no. And that's like it's the same thing that happened with the TV show where the relationship is so intimate. And it's all in the tension though. Right.

[01:14:47] And like I talked enough to Brian Fuller to know that he wanted to do a science of the lamp season. Yes of course he was desperate. And like he wanted to do a Clarisse on the show and like he was interested in

[01:14:56] de-sexualizing that relationship and like making it about mentorship and like. I think would be the smart way to go. I don't remember if this was his casting or if it was fan casting but I thought it was fucking great and like now it would be perfect.

[01:15:07] You tweeted Sir Charonan. Sir was Sir Charonan. She was fucking me. You had tweeted that yeah. And like now she's exactly the right age it'd be like I hope they I hope they can work that out. Yeah that would be incredible.

[01:15:18] It would because it's still they still kind of talk about it as like a thing that they couldn't maybe pull off right. Yeah. Because now De Laurentiis is dead no right. He ripped. No offense. He's dead.

[01:15:28] No offense to being excited that he's dead but like he was part of the problem right like he was sort of like. The problem was they had sold the rights to lifetime. To do a show called Starling which was about Clarice. Of course I forgot about that.

[01:15:40] And then like those rights were tied up at the same time Hannibal was on. They've since expired so like theoretically the deal could be done. It requires somebody to want to make more Hannibal which. Yeah right which is sort of a tricky proposition because after Hannibal

[01:15:53] which was such a huge hit no Hannibal thing is ever really like lit the box office or the ratings. Yeah nobody's yeah nobody's wanted to like touch that sacred ground because Hannibal of

[01:16:02] course ran 17 seasons and was you know a massive success and we still like you still have people outside who are probably just like chanting Hannibal. Hannibal they're just eating people outside the NBC studios. The Hannibal. Yeah the Hannibal. Hann, Hannheds. Was Hannibal produced by NBC Universal?

[01:16:21] No it's produced by Gaumont International. Interesting. In association with the De Laurentiis Company. Okay right. Which is why that why NBC aired three seasons because they got it for like five dollars. Right.

[01:16:31] At the end of the day weren't they ending it was an airing like Saturday night sort of like it had weird time slots. Yeah NBC was like we are literally literally any ad money we make from this we make money on it.

[01:16:41] For them it was like and you keep yelling us about it so I guess we'll make it. It was like burning off a Canadian drama in the summer and NBC's like it's a new show. Yes it was basically their rookie blue. The first season of it.

[01:16:54] Love a rookie blue to name check. The first season of it was basically a crime procedural. Uh-huh. It's a fantastic season. That yeah that's true. I mean I sort of shrike season. Any of it.

[01:17:03] And that season actually had okay ratings like D said for a show that you got for five dollars that is you know right in which people throw strings or turned into cello strings.

[01:17:13] Yeah and um and then season two is much more serialized people start to drop off and then season three is just one of the fucking weirdest things that's ever aired on American television in like nobody watched. It is truly quite odd. I do love it though.

[01:17:26] I do want to ask this. Is there a role that has as high a track record of great performances as Hannibal Lecter? We talked about this on the manhunter episode. It's nobody but it's so wild like that lots of people have taken a shot at it.

[01:17:38] Most of them have done a really good almost career defining stuff with it. Yeah and nonetheless Anthony Hopkins is so associated with the role to the extent that you forget other people did right. It's a weird thing that Hopkins both dominates it and there have been great other

[01:17:53] interpretations. There are four actors who have played him right in filmed media. Gaspar Yuel, non-starter. The other three are all viewed as exemplary performances that are totally different from one another and aren't diminished by each other in any way and it doesn't feel like

[01:18:13] there's even any sort of like well who's your favorite Batman like you know there are people who sometimes make the argument that Cox is better or that Mads got to do more with it or whatever but everyone's just like no there's like three perfect performances.

[01:18:26] Hopkins not ruined but he kind of you know he leans on it in the sequels in a way that gets a little frustrating. Brian Leic and the thing that's interesting is Brian Cox is playing a human.

[01:18:36] Yes and Anthony Hopkins is playing Dracula and especially he gets camp here and camp here with it and Mads Mickelson is playing Satan and they for three while being different. Right. Hot demon like who you want to maybe have you cook your dinner.

[01:18:51] So that's the other thing is like talking about all these other people who could have played Hannibal I feel like this is the kind of performance where people would have been scared in terms of how it would affect the audience's view of them.

[01:19:04] If you're coming into this already as an established actor Hopkins essentially had nothing to lose at this point. He has nothing to lose. Because he was coming off of like two moments when he should have had his breakthrough and it failed to really maintain.

[01:19:17] So he just rips into this with the ferocity of someone going like how do I make this the most interesting character I can. Yeah. That's all I have to do here.

[01:19:27] And in a way it makes his career but it also feels like a performance that would have doomed most other people's careers and that it became so iconic that he could never get out of the shadow of being Hannibal.

[01:19:38] And the fact that he then successfully has like a 20 year run where he's like doing merchant ivory movies. He's playing presidents and all this. You go from this guy who has become this sort of like you know footnote British

[01:19:48] theater actor to the next year to 92 he has Howard's End. He has Dracula. He's in Chaplin right? Like you know by 93 he has the remains of the Dan Shadowland. Like he just Hollywood's like let's make you a movie star. What fucking old guy can you play?

[01:20:03] They're like well you're an old British person so we're going to shove you in some costume dramas like it works. Like it was what he wanted to do I think. He wanted to do it and obviously he's a talent.

[01:20:13] This I have you talking about that the closest thing I can think of is Captain Jack Sparrow. Yes. Where Johnny Depp got buried by that and somehow Hopkins doesn't until he goes back to do Hannibal again.

[01:20:21] Once he goes back is when he starts to become a bit of a lazy actor I would say. Now I actually quite enjoy current Hopkins where he's just an old guy and he's sort of leaning into it again. Like it's the gravitas.

[01:20:32] Yeah yeah yeah but my favorite Hopkins performance outside of this is it's time to guess. Nixon. Nixon. Where he's like doing an impression but he's also like I am Anthony Hopkins. I'm not going to try and like. He's doing the Connery thing. He's doing the Connery thing.

[01:20:51] You're never going to get over it. And he's nailing it where you're like this guy is like a maniac but also I do sort of love him like you know there's that weird like tension that he's so good at finding. I kind of love Nixon. Nixon rules.

[01:21:02] Yeah I think Nixon is better than JFK. Yeah I still prefer JFK but I do love Nixon. That's my hot take. I think that Nixon is like Oliver Stone at his best like piles of conspiratorial papers

[01:21:13] around him being like don't you see it was all happening in the Bahamas. And he like throws another thing and you're like my god Oliver relax. There was a time when I had to spend a lot of time thinking seriously

[01:21:22] about the show House of Cards which is a terrible television show but like if I now try to think about House of Cards. Great set though. Very fun light set to work on. As I have a friend who was on House of Cards and just like I've actually

[01:21:33] talked to several people who were on House of Cards and just like it was a nightmare. Yes. The whole time. I wonder why it's like it's almost as if there was like one person who like has like a notorious track record of horrible behavior to everyone.

[01:21:48] Let me be frank. Carry on please. But when I think about House of Cards for like five minutes it just drifts into Nixon. It just becomes like interesting because I think that it's I think those two are connected

[01:21:59] and like Nixon is doing everything House of Cards tried to do in two and a half hours and is fantastic. It is fantastic. I think also yeah it's just like Stone is such a great like that is Stone. He's a paranoic and like a self important person. Right.

[01:22:13] Yeah. Whereas like the JFK you know he JFK he's making it about a person who's obsessed with the assessment right you know but like Nixon is just a great portrayal of power from a maniac about a maniac. It's great after Nixon right he's in he starts flipping. Yeah.

[01:22:28] He keeps the old man roles Amistad you know classical man where he does that big speech you know like water says what's over he fights a bear. I'm saying then he's like give me some action moves right.

[01:22:40] It's like you have the you have the edge yeah you have the mask of Zorro right which people forget he has a whole opening set piece yes where he is Zorro and then the rest of the movie you know he's he's in it.

[01:22:51] Yes you recently tweeted a perfect movie. It is a perfect film. It's the greatest film of all time. Then Instinct right he's in I mean he's bad company. Yeah bad company I saw that in theaters that thing is a stinker. Joel Schumacher film.

[01:23:05] I'm trying to remember now the movie is terrible. Bad company was written as a sequel to something. It sounds right. And I forget what it was and it makes a lot of sense and is really funny.

[01:23:17] I thought for a second I thought we were talking about the movie Big Trouble which was based on a Dave Berry correct. Which just was correct. But think about Dave Berry a lot lately. You ever think about Dave Berry?

[01:23:27] Yes and I think about him and I just I give a mild chuckle. Just a little rise sort of a skew smile wipes across my face when I think about Dave's world. I've been feeling like if I read all of Dave Berry I could understand our current political

[01:23:43] crisis. I saw you tweeting about that. And I'm just like I've tried to sell my editor on it she's not convinced. Bad company was written as a sequel to Blue Streak. Right. Which is wild stuff.

[01:23:53] And I guess it was just like what if this time there was an old guy with Martin Lawrence. And there it's like a buddy movie. Well no I think the other problem was it was like the first one is he pretends to be

[01:24:03] a cop but he's actually a robber and they were like how do we heighten it. And they were like what if he ends up having to pretend to be an FBI agent and they're like through what series of events and it's like his twin brother.

[01:24:15] I believe it's a CIA agent. Okay but you know what I'm saying. The idea is you heighten it. And the plot of bad company is. The plot of bad company if Chris rocks. Remind people who may have forgotten this film. Dead identical twin. Correct.

[01:24:27] It's Dave with CIA agents. Right. They need someone who looks like Chris Rock. Right. Chris Rock is dead. He has an identical twin also played by Chris Rock. Right. Who is a funny guy not a CIA agent. I just remember.

[01:24:39] And Anthony Hopkins is the guy who's like a brother. I remember them announcing that movie and being ants. No brother. Because they were like so here's a movie it's called Bad Company. It's reworked from a script that was meant to be Blue Streak 2.

[01:24:50] It's Chris Rock and Anthony Hopkins. I was like what a great oil and vinegar odd couple buddy cop action comedy I presume. And then you see the movie I've never even just seen the trailer going wow this looks so fucking dour. Yeah it's kind of just a thriller.

[01:25:05] It's a thriller. Yeah and then Chris Rock like starting two people who should not be playing those roles. Who have no chemistry together. Speaking of the Anthony Hopkins role as you're reading off these roles I'm picturing them I had I've seen a lot of them.

[01:25:16] I'm even picturing the later Hannibal movies and I'm like he feels like a different person from the person in Silence of the Life. He does. Even when he's great you know. He becomes more of a movie star after this where then he's doing the Connery thing

[01:25:27] where he's like character's got to come towards me. That is a little of that. This he's fully giving himself to the project. Also I feel like in the later Hannibal movies because Hannibal film Hannibal Brackets film does not come out for what 10 years at. It's 2001. 2001. 2001.

[01:25:40] Yeah because right after Gladiator. Yeah right it's 2001 so it's 10 years at Silence of the Lambs. Yeah. And it just sort of feels like Hopkins is straining a little too hard to play similar age you know like to sign like he's trying to

[01:25:51] be young and there's a little too much like physicality and then in Red Dragon which is a prequel to Silence. Yeah. He's trying way harder and it feels very strained. Yeah. I remember when Hannibal came out that was February 2001.

[01:26:06] They were trying to replicate the Signs of the Lambs release date and Jeff Wells. The biggest R rated opening of all. Who might seem to talk about every time I'm on this fucking podcast. Well he's the best of us. He's the best of us.

[01:26:14] He was like he saw an early screen here was like they should release that on Christmas Day and Ridley Scott can get two best picture nominations. And like I'm pretty sure it was him. That makes Poland but yeah. Well either one of them. Yeah.

[01:26:25] I mean Poland is the Oscar cursor. Yeah. Anytime he was like fucking Phantom of the Opera get ready across the board. It's when in the big five. Poland is not a total shitball of a human being but yeah he nurses everything that you talk about.

[01:26:38] He's bad at predicting the Oscars. He is not a shitball. Jeff Wells is the combination of all three Hannibal Lectors as you discussed. He is a vampire. He is Satan. He is. But he's also a man. He's also unfortunately a constant reminder.

[01:26:55] I think he now listens to our podcast. So let's let's throttle off the well. He does. I hope if he does listen I hope he makes the banner on Hollywood elsewhere say a vampire Satan a man. A man. It'd be beautiful. 100%. He did email and say that. Yeah.

[01:27:12] No we let's I said throttle off the well. Let's talk. Talk to Hopkins at call times but do you folks know the Hopkins acting process because I kind of find it kind of fascinating. No. And everyone's like he's the most professional actor. He's the most prepared.

[01:27:27] He just fucking like nails it. A he like reads the entire script like 200 times. Okay. Like just obsessively reads rereads rereads rereads a month or two before filming knows his lines backwards and forwards has it like so thoroughly in his

[01:27:43] head records himself doing all the dialogue every night. So the time he's gotten on set he said it so many times that it's like second nature. Right. So that's part one kind of crucial for this movie where he's monologuing a lot of very

[01:27:55] sort of like complicated lines come out totally but in terms of the actual language he kind of puts in the work at a scale that almost no one else does of just like everyone's like obsessively no one reads the lines practices memorizes harder earlier stronger than Hopkins.

[01:28:11] The second thing is which is reported on less but I have heard other actors who have worked with them say this in interviews and go like I don't know if I should be saying this or not.

[01:28:19] What he does to get into character is like he's like really big on like building the visuals of the character in the costume fitting in the hair or whatever. And then he has them take the Polaroid I think it's still to this day a Polaroid it

[01:28:31] needs to be an analog process takes the Polaroid from when they nail the look of the character that first time and he has all the dialogue backwards and forwards you know in his head and he looks at the Polaroids and they're like it looks

[01:28:44] like a possession where he just starts staring very deeply at the Polaroid and then he like leans into it and then like his eyes roll back into his head and he like inhales and like stands straight up and he's the character. Cool.

[01:28:59] And not like he's method acting like now you have to call him Dr. Lector but it's like he looks at the image of what they finally have nailed the look of the character to be

[01:29:08] and he stares at it until he feels like he is embodying that and then he's just like okay go. Cool. That's how I came out of strand. Stared at a Polaroid. Of like myself and like oh right and like brought it to my forehead and everyone's like

[01:29:23] what are you doing? It's like a magic. So the plot of son. But we got to talk to Jodie Foster. You want to talk about her career now? I think we got her. Yeah. We're saying we've never gone in. Yeah I was trying to queue you up.

[01:29:37] I really want to talk to Foster. Produce around. Jodie Foster as we all know is a child actress. The copper ton kit. She's the one getting pants by the dog. That's sure absolutely.

[01:29:51] Right and then you know she's in Freaky Friday and she is the paper moon TV show and the bad news bears. Was she in one of the sequels? Am I wrong about that? I feel like she replaced Tata Monial two times but maybe I'm wrong.

[01:30:05] I don't think so. I mean she was in things yeah she was in a lot of TV shows. Bugsie Malone. Yes people forget the Bugsie Malone and Freaky Friday come out the same year as Taxi Driver.

[01:30:15] Yeah like it's not like Taxi Driver was late in her child acting career. No. It was pretty quickly because obviously she's only 14 years old when she does Taxi Driver but like and so she did kind of after that after that whole big year starts transitioning

[01:30:30] more to you know whatever grown-up movies. Right but Taxi Driver I think was like oh shit she can actually act but also was seen as something of a like you know Selena Gomez doing Spring Breakers.

[01:30:42] Because it's like someone trying to lay the groundwork for an adult career by establishing early that she's not going to be in Disneyland for entire life. Because when she's in the accused it's kind of like oh Doty Foster's back kind of vibe. Right.

[01:30:55] Like you know like oh here's like a serious performance from the famed child actor who is in Taxi Driver and then in between the accused and Selena Gomez just one movie Catch Fire slash Backtrack not a big movie.

[01:31:08] And then after this much like with Hopkins Hollywood is like okay let's you're a movie star. You're the number one. You're the number one. You're an Oscar you're two. Yeah. Right so like. You're sensibly the biggest female star in Hollywood. She starts directing a lot too.

[01:31:20] She starts directing early. But she will always say she prefers to acting and that she wanted to become more of a director and act even less. I uh I. She makes Little Mantaite I believe comes out the same year.

[01:31:31] It's that was a big part of their Oscar campaign for Science the Lambs was they were like we're going to put Little Mantaite out there it's going to be a sort of fan another Oscar. Yeah yeah right for because she's going to get all this press around like.

[01:31:42] Cute movie. It's a very nice little movie. In 95 she made Hope for the Holidays which I think is a good movie. Yes I love that movie. And then in 2011 she made The Beaver. Yeah more of a mixed bag that one. Can I discover Jennifer Lawrence though.

[01:31:56] She did not she did. No winter's ball but like didn't they make that before winter's ball. I believe they did. I am all but certain they did. That's also one of those movies where that was the hot script. I read it as a script.

[01:32:09] I wanted to play the Anton Yelkin part so fucking badly and on paper you were just like slam dunk of all slam dunks. And even when they cast Mel Gibson I was like that's an interesting casting

[01:32:19] choice and then you watch the movie and you're like oh it is a script that is impossible to actually put on its feet. This is the thing that I think a lot about Blacklist scripts.

[01:32:28] There are so many of them that are like oh this is a fucking amazing. The ones that read the best often are unactable. Yeah passengers was a movie where like the script is like very good and then it's a pretty perfect script.

[01:32:39] And then the movie you're like oh what the fuck. And Beaver is the same thing as passengers where it's like it is it's creepypasta. No both of them are so difficult to pull off tonally. Where reading the script the writer is literally describing how you're viewing scenes

[01:32:55] and letting you know the tone it's supposed to have. And you're putting in your mind's eye the way that like hits your palette the best. Yeah. And those two films like put up on their feet are just like impossible to do.

[01:33:05] I did a Twitter thought about this around the movie Life Itself the Dan Fulgham new movie which is like sure. You read that on the page you're probably like oh yeah great I get it. And like you hear the famous story like Warren Beatty Wept reading that script.

[01:33:17] And like then you see it on screen. It's just stupid. Right very stupid. I'm friends Kyle Killen the guy who wrote The Beaver. Yes. Now he's show running Halo I think which is like a weird choice. Halo like the video game.

[01:33:30] No the Showtime TV series Halo based on the video game. Okay. Yeah cool. I'm excited. But yeah and he's an excellent writer. It's just like great screenwriting which The Sons of the Lambs has to but great screenwriting is so often about just like economics of character.

[01:33:45] And anytime you're giving yourself something super flashy it becomes dangerous and then actually depicting it on screen is too much. Right and it was like there was almost the J Roach Jim Carrey Beaver which would have gone

[01:33:58] like totally comedy and then it was sort of surprising that was like Jodie Foster Mel Gibson could do it and it's more of a drama and in reality like neither one was the right approach.

[01:34:07] I kind of want to see the J Roach Jim Carrey one because he would just be like yeah yeah. It would have been a complete posture's career. One she fain- her last directorial effort was famously a biopic of David Sims. Called Money Monster. That's right.

[01:34:21] And then it's the film about you starting the Patreon. And then there was also but like we should also you know in the 90s she had a a somewhat robust like movie star career right yeah there's Maverick, there's Nell, there's Contact, there's Anna and the King.

[01:34:36] That's her sort of like 90s run. She gets an Oscar nomination for Nell. Contact is People Forget was a pretty big hit and is a great movie. Yeah was disliked at the time. Do the Mechus my god yeah I know it's a lot of movies.

[01:34:47] It's long that's the biggest holdout. And the King is kind of like a big oscarine movie that flops like you know and it's also just a stupid idea. Her 2000s. People should sing songs like I don't know that I want to just hear the story of a King.

[01:35:00] Her 2000s are fascinating because she'll take like three years in between each movie to the extent that people are like oh I guess maybe Jodie Foster's like done and then she comes back and has another like third base hit. She has a couple. She's a panic room.

[01:35:13] Panic room and inside man. Flight plan. Flight plan. You're calling that a base hit? Box office? Oh box office sure. I'm talking box office. Flight plan is it's weird she has made two films that I would call outright offensive in the 2000s. Flight plan and the brave one.

[01:35:27] Two films that are like when you watch them now you're like this is problematic. This is a tricky movie. Have not seen it either. Yeah. Flight plan is basically a movie that's like what if you suspected the brown person on your

[01:35:39] plane was a terrorist and you were right. Like that's what flight plan is. But flight plan did 85 domestic. Yeah flight plan was definitely a hit. Can you tell me the director? Robert Schwenke. Robert Schwenke. Yeah. Made 89 domestic. Director of red. Pretty watchable movie.

[01:35:55] I find almost any movie set on a plane watchable because I am so tense during a movie set on a plane. Just like Jodie Foster in a thriller is like so so effective.

[01:36:04] Brave one is not a movie I like but she does get that she got that globe nomination and you know that was like that. Is that Neil Jordan? That was Neil Jordan.

[01:36:11] People thought that was going to be a big Oscar play for her and a big sort of like revenge thriller hit. It's so weird that like Death Wish we just did Death Wish is still like a

[01:36:21] template once in a while people are like I don't know let's do a Death Wish with X actor. Now she's like directing television. She did some oranges in New Black. She did a bunch. Yeah. And then after that I mean well Nims Island. Right.

[01:36:35] Gotta give it up for Nims Island. But like Carnage the Polanski movie. Elysium. A movie that hangs around to dry. I mean she had sort of said like I was pretty much retired from acting.

[01:36:47] I didn't really want to act anymore and I love District 9 so much I called him up and said I'll do anything. And she kind of has the inside man role but it's like the bad version of that role. Right? Like she's sort of the evil rich lady.

[01:36:58] Right and I forget which way it is because the movie's forgettable but either she filmed it with a French accent and they made it dub it to American later or vice versa. Oh dear. And then.

[01:37:07] Her whole performance is ADR because they wanted her to do a different voice than what she did on set. And then last year Hotel Artemis. Yes. You forget. Which she is. She's good in. Really fucking good in. It's not a movie I love.

[01:37:20] It's one of those movies where I'm like I'm ready to love this movie. Me too. Love the concept, love the cast. The cast is unbelievable. It's sort of like John Wick except John Wick I love. That's another screenplay movie though. Another screenplay movie 100%. Totally.

[01:37:33] And it's not like it flops it but it doesn't really get past like cool idea. She is pretty phenomenal in it. And she's giving a really funny performance. It's a full body performance. It's wild that she's in it. Why is she in it? It's so wild.

[01:37:47] I don't know. She must have just liked the script. I think she just liked the script. As you're right. But then she's basically people are like oh I guess she just directs now and kind of chills out and then once in a while she'll do a hotel Artemis.

[01:37:56] Right. She'll show up at the Golden Globes to speak up for Mel Gibson. She loves Mel. This is the thing I like. This is the thing when you live like Palansakine Gibson. There's a lot of people in her filmography about how she really works with the.

[01:38:08] The famous thing about her was like she was the one child star who didn't fall apart like that for a long time people. She was like she's the exception that proves the rule. And yet in the middle of it she has the John Wayne Hinckley thing where

[01:38:20] and like where like it's this huge burden on her life and she like somehow overcomes that psychologically. And I think that in some way made her more predisposed to be like these guys are damaged but like I see the good in them or something like that.

[01:38:34] I think she had to get past this element of oh this terrible thing happened and I can't think it was about me. She also was like a massive star had won two Oscars was like an A-list box

[01:38:46] office leading lady and was often afraid or not interested in being one. Sure. I think Hollywood was always ready to put her at the top. But the other fascinating thing about her was she was at her peak living in a total

[01:39:00] glass closet in terms of her sexuality with a total like don't ask don't tell attitude of there was never any denial. There were no beards you know like 97 or 98. She like has a child through in Virido fertilization with a partner

[01:39:14] and everyone like reports on it but just doesn't like directly say like she is married to a woman. Is she out now? She is. She gave a speech at some award show at the Globes but this was like fairly recently right like 2012.

[01:39:29] She won like a lifetime achievement award and she gave this sort of odd speech. And she said like my wife who she's now divorced from but she like when she finally came out she just sort of said like you know that person I've been married to for like

[01:39:41] 15 years and we just don't directly acknowledge it. I had the memory that she gave that speech and everyone was like did Jodie Foster just come out and then in the press room they were like did you just come out? She's like no.

[01:39:51] I think she doesn't like the press that much. No that's fine. I mean fair. I also I read it at the time as her saying like that wasn't me coming out. Everyone knows I'm gay you know. Sure.

[01:40:01] Because there was never any sort of like diversion with her which like you know it wasn't even like oh rumors have dogged it was like oh yeah Jodie Foster is gay. She's gay. Everyone knows that. I want to point out she also directed the Black Mirror episode. Interesting.

[01:40:17] People forget. Yeah. She directed Archangel. Oh right. Which is not my favorite episode of Black Mirror. It's fine. She gets good performances. She does. I just find it very interesting that even if she didn't like publicly come out at her peak

[01:40:29] she was essentially the first like major major game movie star. Yeah sure. You know there was no alternate narrative being thrown around about her. I guess so. You ever think about how? The narrative more became a guay hasn't she come out like why hasn't she done the formal

[01:40:45] stuff. Right yeah. If you think about how in Home for the Holidays she cast us the hot guy who might attempt Holly Hunter to move home as David Strathairn like. Good taste. What a call. What a call. Did Karen Honduric this movie? Silence of the Lands.

[01:41:03] I'm trying to think of like are there scenes or sequences we haven't talked about obviously we have talked about some of the major sequences. I'm going to have your running time gripe. I understand this will get us into one thing I want to shout out.

[01:41:15] This movie was a legendary scary VHS cover movie for me. Yep. My parents rented it because I think even though it was like I'm a young kid when this comes out so like it's probably appeared with they're probably seeing not

[01:41:27] a lot of movies but I'm sure this thing was such a big thing that they were like all right let's rent Silence of the Lambs. Yeah. The poster iconic poster Jody Foster's face in like extreme contrast. It weirdly doesn't even look like her.

[01:41:40] It feels like it's own piece of iconography. Yes with the moth over her face. Yeah. I mean you guys know the poster. Yeah. Greatest poster. I was like what is this movie? It's about Lambs. Yeah. What is it?

[01:41:53] And my parents were like no we can't explain this one to you. You're too young there's just I don't know where to begin. I had the exact same relationship with it and it. I knew it was scary. I knew that.

[01:42:03] Well the image is upsetting but you can't put your finger on why. Right. And the weird the skull on the back of the moth. What's up with that? Is like is that just how it happens to look or is that them making a movie about a monster moth?

[01:42:16] Like is that a real species? Is this movie about a moth man and prophecies that might be about the moth man? Moth man prophecies great fucking movie. I have not seen it. It's actually a really it's really nice little. I have not seen it.

[01:42:28] Like it's yeah no I uh we have talked about so much of this movie and we haven't talked about two of the most famous sequences like at all. I just want to point out also there is the iconic Hopkins poster that is never used. Yes.

[01:42:41] They had the reverse essentially. Right. Carry on. That's gross. This gross poster. There's something. I think there's a reason they were like you know what the foster one is the good balanced light and dark. There was something. Looks like you're going to get eaten by Darth Maul.

[01:42:54] His face is totally red. Yes. There's something about the blankness of Foster's face that makes the poster really eerie. I was also thinking it's a rare example of like a poster that totally works on its own as just a striking piece of iconography.

[01:43:10] I don't get what this poster saying. I don't understand what's going on in this movie but it catches my eye and it makes me curious. And also after you have seen the movie the poster is more impressive. 100%. You're like that's an incredible visual encapsulation.

[01:43:23] Of what's going on here. Totally. But it's something that like doesn't sell those things to you and spoil it for you going into the theater and then the poster becomes its own individual work of art. Great movie. Great fucking movie. Now what did you want to talk about?

[01:43:35] We barely talked about the second hour of this movie. We've barely we haven't talked about like this. We mostly talk about the setup. Yeah. And we have to talk about like just escape. You're right. I want to hear the truth. We haven't talked about the Buffalo Bill's house.

[01:43:45] Right. What a last. The Oubliette. Yeah. Can I do my scene rundown because I think this will serve as a transition to get into the bits we haven't done. Okay. Hopkins has nine scenes in the movie. Sounds great. I you know I can't say I was 100% accurate.

[01:43:58] He's nine for nine. He's nine for nine. He's nine for nine. He's nine for nine. But my rule was if he is in a scene my stopwatch is going and if the scene ends my stopwatch stops. That is what the rule should be. 100%.

[01:44:12] And I feel like this weird screen time thing became more about when do we see them on screen as I already said. Right. And so like what is it 12 minutes there's some like number out there. Right where they're like he's actually only in the movie for 16 minutes. No.

[01:44:26] He's only his face is only directly on screen for 16 minutes but that's mostly because of the fucking cinematic language of this movie. Yes. Which is separating Clarice and Hopkins. Right. His dialogue is over those shots.

[01:44:39] You know there's no disputing this right you count the scenes he's in not the Right so I counted any scene in which he was working. Yes. Where he is affecting the scene. Where he's a character in the scene.

[01:44:49] So even when he escapes and he's wearing the fake face and all of that that is a scene he is in. That is true though. Right. Hannibal does have a whole scene where he's just pretending to be a dead body. Yeah but that's a see anything. I agree.

[01:45:00] I agree. I showed up he was number two in the call sheet they said Mr. Hopkins you want to coffee. And he was like yeah thank you. Right. You want to pillow in between takes Hopkins in that scene. Okay.

[01:45:11] So do you think anyone got to eat those lamb chops. It's a classic example of great looking food not getting eaten. The thing that drives you the crazy. Drives me crazy. They're rare. Okay the first meeting scene six minutes and 40 seconds.

[01:45:21] The second meeting scene after the rain where he gives her the towel. 420 right. Do you want me to add these times together or have you already done it. I've added together. Okay. Okay then it's 530 I think is the third meeting where they start the quid pro quo thing.

[01:45:35] Right. Then it's. Scene four 1 30 is Anthony held with him with a cage on his face. Yes. Talking about the transfer. Then scene five I believe is him meeting with the. With the senator. Yeah. That's 330 scene six is the big one.

[01:45:53] That's the signs of the lambs monologue that's seven. Yeah. The end of him in the weird cell and all that stuff. Yeah. Right. Then him escaping from the cell the attack is for his screen time in terms of. And then also the phone call at the end. Please.

[01:46:11] Oh I'm sorry. Then it's the two minutes of him wearing the other guy's face getting out. Sure. Right. Ending with him waking up in the ambulance and then scene nine is one minute which is the phone call at the end.

[01:46:20] He's got 36 minutes and 30 seconds of screen time in this movie by my count. Right. In like a two hour movie. In a two hour movie. Regular. Now the thing that shifts is. He's not in much of the latter half. That's the thing.

[01:46:32] You know because then it becomes gotta get Buffalo Bell. Because the first hour of the movie I was pretty much up to 30 minutes. And I was like. The first hour of the movie is about the two of them. Right. Yeah. That's mostly what it's about. Right.

[01:46:42] And then there's a large chunk for about half an hour plus where he doesn't appear until the phone call at the end. Because he's getting to the Caribbean. Right. But in a wig he's getting the hat.

[01:46:51] Here's the thing I think that throws this conversation is if you gender flip this. If this was somehow a movie about like Eddie Redmayne and Sandra Bullock and Sandra Bullock was like a serial killer. Like people would be like oh yeah she's the lead. Of course.

[01:47:02] Because we don't expect a man to play a supporting lead role to a woman in a movie like this. Right. That's what this is. It's a lead role that supports the other lead. Or there's a weird version of it wherein like the cursed movie, the Danish girl,

[01:47:16] fucking, at least if it can't do is 100% the main character in that film. She has the most screen time. Disputably the main character of that film. She's the Danish girl. She is the Danish girl in that film.

[01:47:28] And they put her in supporting because it was like a cakewalk. It is so weird that she has that Oscar. It's so weird that she won and that she beat another lead performance that should have won Rooney Mara. Yes. In Carol. Yes.

[01:47:40] The other thing was I feel like. In that case as well Rooney Mara was the actual Carol in that movie. She is Carol. She plays Carol. Right. But it also is incredibly strange that I feel like right up until the nominations everyone was like,

[01:47:53] yeah, Elisa van Kander is going to get nominated for X-Makina and she's probably going to win the Oscar because it feels like a big year for her and that will be a cool Oscar win. And then the surprise was. They were predicting Danish girl.

[01:48:03] No we were predicting the Danish girl. You're reading the weird blogs. No, no, no. Danish girl was X-Makina had its own lovely surprise win. Yeah. People were kind of predicting Danish girl actress X-Makina support. No, no they weren't. They ran it as supporting.

[01:48:18] There were a couple places that said that but they ran. Yeah. No, but no. But once the precursors started she was nominated as supporting actress because that was the move they made. Who had that movie? That was a focus. Right, right, right. You know Golden Globes, Golden Shmoes.

[01:48:38] Oh no you're right. The Globes they did that trick. Thank you. She got the double nomination and people were like is she gonna repeat it? But then at the SAGs she went supporting because at the SAGs you put someone in a category and they

[01:48:51] can't be excluded and she won. And that was the moment when Rooney Mara's agent called me and said she wasn't going to do an interview with me. Oh boy. Wow. That's sad.

[01:49:00] I was going to talk to her because she was running and she was getting ready for an Oscar campaign and then the SAGs happened and I think that everyone else was like okay forget it. Save your money. Alicia's winning. You doomed Rooney Mara David. It's not my fault.

[01:49:11] It's your fault. It's your fault. It's your fault. Thank you for the possibility. You're right, you're right. There was the X-MAC in a Globe No. Thank you. So yes we've talked a lot about the major interrogation. We've talked about the handle, the caries, the seams.

[01:49:27] I love all the stuff with Cassie Lemons is so good too and such a good example of them not putting too fine a point on it but just like such a lived-in relationship. It's just like this is what a female friendship is like. Right. Yeah.

[01:49:40] I just was like oh. And especially in this incredibly male dominated field where they are like having to prove themselves twice as hard at every single turn and also dealing with such heavy awful shit all the time

[01:49:55] where it's like having a friendship of someone else who gets that scene where they're going over the case file and figuring him out and it's all in the demi first person close ups and Cassie Lemons lips are trembling just a little bit.

[01:50:09] It's just like incredible like repeating micro expression she keeps on making and it is like they're excited because they're solving it but the heaviness of what they're talking about is so disturbing that it's still affecting her psychologically.

[01:50:25] I also just like that that scene is Clarice being like hey friend figure this out with me. Yeah. Like it's not like just her with like Hannibal in her head like pouring over No-Tiger herself.

[01:50:36] Well another scene I love is when they watch the press conference of the senator and she's like she's really smart. She knows what she's doing. She's really smart and explains to everyone like she understands that Buffalo Bill is going

[01:50:47] to have a harder time killing her right if she has a name which then transitions into it puts the lotion on its skin and then it gets the hose again right which is like Ted

[01:50:58] Levine's best seen as an actor where he is fully playing talking about like the demi like this is human being it's a guy working as hard as he can to play the monster and to totally depersonalize her. That scene is insanely upsetting.

[01:51:12] It's so deeply because this movie is not that violent. No even though it's you know about a guy who eats people and there's some eating and there's nothing this really graphic in that scene.

[01:51:22] Not in that scene and really the most graphic thing in this movie is a severed head and a jar which is great and the autopsy and but then all in you know the skin face skin.

[01:51:33] Yeah I mean that's gross there are some grossing sense right right but I think he a cannibal yeah but the scenes with her in the in the pit and like the her seeing the nail and all that

[01:51:45] like that's the stuff where you're kind of like I might have to turn this off I'm upset right like that's sort of the most chilling stuff in the movie one of the and him doing

[01:51:53] the like the like the weird shrieking one touch I love this is skipping ahead to the end is that it's scored with that fucking dog barking yeah which is just like this dog is in pain

[01:52:03] very anxiety and do say yeah yes and it's such a weird little touch that you can hear throughout the house at different yeah it's so panicky all that stuff she's so good to Brooks I mean every performance in this film is incredible every two-line performance is incredible

[01:52:17] but her in the car I forget that this movie has like four really strong needle drops but her in the car I wanted to talk about listening to American girl yes you get such a

[01:52:28] sense of who she is in temperament right but it's beautiful that's devoid of the context of her parents right that it's just it could be any random person you don't understand the weight she's going to hold culturally right then part of the part of Buffalo Bill's problem

[01:52:42] was that he accidentally abducted a senator's daughter like doesn't you know he's not doing it for that read but that's like what awakens national interest but he's also just like such a beautiful like story decision on Thomas Harris's part which is like that's how you explain why

[01:52:57] they're willing to deal with fucking Hannibal Lecter right because suddenly this becomes a thing that the president's weighed in on every time anyone goes anywhere in this movie they go like oh that a Buffalo Bill case yeah everyone knows this fucking guy he's equivalent to the Zodiac killer

[01:53:10] and that like the mythologizing is getting out of hand the president is weighing in on this it's become such an emotional story that it's like we can clean up any mass after the fact

[01:53:19] with Hannibal Lecter right we just need to find her now which is great and watching her do all the math of like you know how she can figure it out but also how she can use this case to her career

[01:53:35] careers benefit to be able to sort of firmly get her foot in so that she can be inarguable within the fg she's ambitious like in a normal way right she gets it she's she's a tiny one

[01:53:47] there's a version of this movie where she is more cutthroat because like that's often how women who are careerists are presented in these right where she gives you fucking speech to kasey lemons about

[01:53:56] oh we don't get to do it sure exactly or she gives us speech to Hannibal Lecter and he's like you don't understand how hard my life's been right right right and Hannibal Lecter is an ally and

[01:54:04] you know he's like I agree and he busts out some stats about how about payment gap he is woke i mean there is like every scene he's in the movie he walks in and he just is like hey the

[01:54:13] ally has arrived yes it's weird that he on his jumpsuit wrote the future is female and then if you turn around on the other side it says nevertheless she persists right and both are

[01:54:25] written in blood no okay so i other i also think like you know uh red dragon the first um harris novel uh which is about like a man who the he's the version of the cop who's like i have a disease

[01:54:39] and my disease is that i understand criminals and i'll never be cured right like i i understand killers that's like what will graham type is yeah whereas like this movie is all about Hannibal

[01:54:50] trying to understand clary's right and her disease is like i just feel like if i save this person then then finally the the ocean inside me will be calm right even though she knows it won't at this

[01:55:02] you know the beauty of the title is that the title is aspirational right she is striving for in life is to get to the silence of the land yes she wants to be in a place where she feels

[01:55:11] like she's been able to personally stop the crying because the idea that people are in that much pain and suffering flips her the fuck out and like it is wild at this movie the crux of

[01:55:20] this movie is that story right because it's not like that story she's then like lambs but an anagram of lambs is this and that's where he lives like it's not like electors trying to get

[01:55:30] her to realize something about the case when they're talking about her but but it is it's such a key thing because as you said like viewing will graham as the sort of shadow of of Hannibal

[01:55:41] or vice versa right uh they're both people who have spent their lives studying the psychology of incredibly broken dangerous people right and it has kind of destroyed both of them which is like

[01:55:55] what behavioral science at the end when mind hunter eventually is going to be like you know in this movie is based on the mind hunt jack crawford is the mind hunter guy and right

[01:56:02] like that's the classic thing right if you spend all this time with serial killers maybe you'll sort of start to go mad yourself and Hannibal's sort of superpower is he understands that mind so

[01:56:10] well that it gives him such a clear vision of how fucked up humanity is and the human brain can be that it makes him into this total fucking like nihilist who wants to eat people's brains

[01:56:22] and shit right it's also really smart about making buffalo bill someone that only Clarice could catch yeah that's that's what that's the thing her magic power is understanding him as a person right and that's what eventually unlocks it for her because she has that conversation is so pivotal

[01:56:36] she has not given up on humanity yet yeah 100 which will graham is only so successful in being able to stop Hannibal lector because he's already gotten to him right the souls already started

[01:56:46] getting eaten away at you know and the fact that Clarice is so much still in the aspirational phase of maybe i can stop it all maybe i can let the lambs go free and they'll stop screaming

[01:56:59] it's kind of about the ways that men fail to understand women yes in the ways that women always understand men and like are able to navigate within that space because like if you accept the buffalo

[01:57:09] bill is not trans which dem he certainly wants us to think then he is a man who is like not comprehending that womanhood is more than this costume he wants to play right which is true

[01:57:18] he thinks that'll fix it if he just can find the right size and the right person right and the thomas harris thing like brian fuller was big into this is like every killer

[01:57:26] is wants to transform themselves in some way like he's trying to wash away his pain by becoming what he thinks of as the opposite of himself without realizing that like it's within him at the same time right that's not that yeah right it's not that he feels

[01:57:41] that he is a woman it's that he wishes he were a different person so the most drastic way he can think of making that happen which is why he's like applied for uh sex reassignment surgery

[01:57:51] rejected is like a Hannibal points out because back then like the the way to become like legally trans was like you had to like go essentially full time which means dressing as your the gender

[01:58:02] that you are you had to do that for like two years and then you could start on hormones and then you could do something like it was this law and like clearly he's not doing that like he

[01:58:11] doesn't want to take the social risk of like going out dressed in women's clothing or whatever which tells you everything because you sense that he would not feel any freedom from doing that

[01:58:22] yeah he is looking for some sort of magic solve to how much he hates being in his own skin which is because of the life he's lived you know said I do think that one of the areas in which

[01:58:34] it kind of uh gets at the trans experience in a way that is like damaging is it's talking about someone who desperately does not want to be himself uh and that is often like I remember for

[01:58:47] many years I just was like I just I don't want to be a woman I just don't want to be me sure and like this the body I'm in feels wrong to me but that doesn't mean I want to be a woman

[01:58:56] because it's like a huge conceptual leap to make it's like breaking apart society on some level and like I do wonder you know for all the movies protests to the contrary it does capture that

[01:59:07] element of the experience with Buffalo Bill and I'm like I wonder to what degree you could do a sympathetic trans reading of this character I think you could I'm not going to try it but I

[01:59:17] think you could yeah yeah it'd be tough but yeah I mean yeah you go like it takes 20 plus years after this movie for us to start getting like trans characters played by trans actors

[01:59:32] there has to be a dangerous girl right and right like that's what five years ago and even that is an offensive and misguided project right essentially once Eddie Redmayne did it then

[01:59:42] Hollywood was like okay everybody who's had to do it you know what yeah that's it we finally are a little sick of this and that's why when Scarlett Johansson tried to do is like nope

[01:59:52] Eddie Redmayne did it yeah that was the end of the road done you missed your window um the other this is but like the other thing I that I noticed this and I don't know is like

[02:00:02] whenever Hannibal's talking to Clarice his mind immediately goes to the worst thing so like when you know like she went to her dad dies she goes to live with her dad's cousin

[02:00:11] and he was like and did he do all terrible things he like he always goes there and I think it's partly that he just can't resist like pushing a button but also like he just assumes the world is

[02:00:21] like completely overflowing when she shows up he's like oh so they sent you because they think I'll want to fuck you right and then he's like just Jack Crawford want to fuck you and

[02:00:29] she you know she's good at sort of deflecting all that stuff but he's always just like yeah no it has to be the worst thing right because he spent his life studying I'm saying right right

[02:00:38] the worst psychological mechanisms a person can have and then you know where's Clarice is more like even though she took a lamb and it was too heavy and she couldn't save the lamb yeah

[02:00:48] like she's still like you know what I'm gonna keep trying to save the lamp the smart thing about the end of this movie is it understands that you can defeat minor demons but you

[02:00:56] can never defeat the devil like Hannibal Lecter is always going to escape Hannibal Lecter is always going to be out there in the world but Clarice's approach can work for a time you can save one

[02:01:06] woman you can stop one villain it's why Lecter is so compelling yeah you're kind of like oh yeah this guy doesn't belong in jail he's like a caged animal like you're you know you're like

[02:01:14] I know like he just has that feeling where you're like he should be out there even though that's scary you know what I mean like you're just like the idea of him operating at full power is kind of thrilling the scene with the senator is incredible I mean

[02:01:27] aside from the fact that obviously you have like the most iconic thing back to Baltimore but him with the straight jacket the orange jumpsuit on the stretcher and of course with the mask which is

[02:01:37] just I it another thing we're watching this morning for the first time as a 15 year old I was like okay but I've seen like a thousand fucking parodies of the mask sure and parodies of Jim

[02:01:47] carries the mask that's right no but I've seen so many people wearing the mask as a joke and fucking putting it on a guard pill can't card or whatever damn crystal right yeah right out on

[02:01:57] the Oscars stage that I was like this is gonna have no power for me and the first time they wheel amounted you go that is fucking terrifying and watching it again last night there's something

[02:02:06] about it like he's just wide open piercing blue eyes and his blank expression underneath and his mouth looking like it's in its own jail cell the fact that it's like little metal bars in

[02:02:17] front of his teeth it's just a great he's too bitey yeah the thing that the impersonations of it the thick the two personations of it don't get is that his eyes are darting just his eyes are

[02:02:27] incredible yeah right yeah he's like looking for an escape even though he knows there isn't one and then of course they will match the senator and he like starts giving the information he

[02:02:36] wants but also it's like he can't help himself this is the only Julian light and this is like he just can't help himself Anthony held like sucks he's basic there's no fun there you know

[02:02:47] and then like he hates all the held is so good in this so good though like his whole preening like he's the best specimen I've got you know he's like a weird little yeah sorry

[02:02:55] carry on I'm sorry no and and like he hates everyone else like in his like wing you know I mean the fact that he kills the other guy for throwing the semen on Clarisse is just like

[02:03:05] please there's a difference between me and guys like this he basically Clarisse lost Hannibal but then that when that happened Hannibal's like I owe you a solid yeah come over on McDonner

[02:03:15] you know that would be his usual approach yeah I'll draw you right um yeah and then it's just like this movie just has like a couple like straight up set pieces we're like the whole prison I mean

[02:03:27] the whole not prison the whole escape escape thing is incredible sequence right is just like stunning that set is amazing yeah I don't know what mustache is amazing on that one officer it's the crazy

[02:03:39] he's got like the very thin but very long it's like a crazy variation on a foo man yeah by the way Ben's back Ben's back oh yeah Ben is back beautiful Ben is back uh should I just throw up some

[02:03:53] thoughts of stuff earlier that you guys have already talked about yeah probably just read a quick note here uh shady storage units across america love that I would not help anyone with a street couch

[02:04:05] into a van let alone at night sure um I do like that in the scene she has the agency of this is clearly a bad idea right that they don't play her as a total naive like sort of moron it's like

[02:04:19] she knows like fuck this is the kind of thing that usually ends up with you being put in a pit right and it's that basic human thing of like in the moment you're like I should give him benefit

[02:04:29] of the doubt sure right and then it's too late the second because he just backs her in and yeah yeah um we didn't talk about the storage locker that move of Hannibal being like go visit a friend

[02:04:40] of mine transfer his storage locker real chill weird old cowboy man in the rain who's like oh I saw him come tomorrow and she's like sliding under the door and then that fucking setup of like

[02:04:51] the the carriage with the plush interior and the headless mannequin and then the the head in a jar how long are we supposed to believe that Hannibal has been in jail that he just set up this little

[02:05:04] display and paid long enough for it to remain in the storage locker so that's something right I mean that's incredible what an artist this guy is good for him he's a big picture thinker

[02:05:17] made storage like unit like when I drive those yeah on the highway late at night like it's so creepy right there is something about there's things in those buildings right it's a true mystery what were

[02:05:28] you gonna say Emily I just was going to say uh yeah fuck I don't remember I want to know Amy Tobin the great Amy Tobin film critic wrote the criterion essay I don't know if you've read

[02:05:38] it I've not it's worth reading it's very good and she points out like that scene there's flags everywhere yeah the scene obviously in the prison the escape the weird cell I don't know how do you

[02:05:51] describe it the weird cell in a gymnasium yeah thing it has the weird American flag like and like when it looks like the grand old old again makes a weird little display for everyone Charles Napier

[02:06:03] hanging with his skin ripped it right like you know right Hannibal could have just gotten out of there but he's like no no there needs to be some pomp and circumstance he needs people to respect

[02:06:11] him like he needs people to recognize that he's a genius yes exactly artist it's like she's like all these tattered flags all these relics of America like this is all very intentional yeah yeah I really

[02:06:23] uh I advise you to read it it's really good I'll read it yeah the TV show went a little like it did great stuff with like the death tableau yeah but like what I like about this movie is that you

[02:06:34] can sort of you can bend your brain in a way where you're like okay yeah I get like how he did this even though he had like 10 minutes to like sure that guy from the ceiling yeah you know yeah

[02:06:44] but it is like it's a pretty like even knowing where it goes it is such a beautifully constructed extended set piece yeah from like I mean they've set up the the pen like 15 20 minutes earlier

[02:06:58] so you see him look at it then a full scene later you see Anthony Held not be able to find his pen yeah and then they sit on it for like another 10 minutes before he takes the thing out of his

[02:07:09] mouth yeah it's after he's had the whole Clarice conversation after he's been transferred then he takes it out and then it's just like how is he fucking gonna get out of this then to switch over

[02:07:19] to the SWAT guy perspective that's what I love that's the beauty that that takes a while like you really stick with those guys one of them is an actor I know who is it it's Chris Isaac

[02:07:27] it's Christina Van Bargain there's someone else in there whose face I recognize and I can't the thing I love about Demi is he lets things breathe yes and I feel like so many other movies

[02:07:36] like this would just be like bang bang bang here's a face bite and like this is it takes its time the tension of the elevator thing of all of them realizing like oh fuck guns out call the battalion

[02:07:49] seeing it stop on three and then going like wait what the fuck is going on right I also like that you don't see him you know rip the guy's skin off yeah just the shot of him taking the

[02:08:01] skin mask off is enough for you to process like oh he did all of that oh that's so you know like that's all you need like your brain does all the work for you but it's such a fine balance of like

[02:08:11] and and that the body on top that he switched the clothes that they think that that's what's going on yeah right like all the sort of misdirection stuff but also I think he did some regular

[02:08:22] escape stuff right not some skin removal new face escape right but he also basically is putting Buffalo Bill to shame he like jury rigged a human face yeah in like five seconds when I was talking

[02:08:34] about how this show is television now like the X files rips off this yeah this movie's uh visual palette and then every show on CBS rips off the X files so like that's why now we live in

[02:08:44] silence of the lambs world yeah like the thing about television now is it's so graphic and you see so much of the violence yes I'm like that's fine whatever but CSI and criminal minds

[02:08:54] and svu and all these shows don't zoom into the room right even like X files a show I love did a lot of that and this movie I always forget how non-gory it is that's what I was gonna say it's crazy

[02:09:06] because he doesn't sanitize it like he deals with it I mean proper weight of like these are horrific things happening and you can't sugarcoat them but it is a rare movie of this ilk

[02:09:17] that does not kind of glamorize and ask you to get some perverse thrill from like how fucked up it is one of the most horrifying shots in the movie is when he grabs the guy and you have

[02:09:27] that shot of Hannibal like yeah biting the camera essentially yeah you see him kind of like biting the guy right but in another movie such as red dragon yeah he would then like tear away and

[02:09:38] like blow away some chunk of flesh and the guy's face will be so fucked up and when they cut back to the guy he's got a bite wounds yeah he's got a bite one he's got one small bite a little

[02:09:46] it's a little less I mean it's the classic car thing it's like your mind is what much more scary about is you don't understand it it's just like this is not normal human interaction

[02:09:54] and like that's I also write Charles Napier is just watching it being like Jesus Christ like even the way he strikes the physicality I mean oh yeah that's a boy but also he's like dead

[02:10:05] like he just goes into total robot mode when he's doing the repeated you know caushing the banality of evil thing like as much as he then likes to like put it in a nice package

[02:10:15] and like put on a show for them it is the fact that like you know you watch something like mind hunter and it makes it a lot more glamorous than it actually is I fucking love mine I'm not

[02:10:27] saying that in a negative way I'm not saying that negative way great I'm just saying it's a it's a different approach yeah because one of the things that this movie does is kind of at

[02:10:36] times feel like a documentary I actually think that mind hunter is like kind of breaking the silence of the lamp thing because it is deliberately saying we don't show stuff yeah

[02:10:45] at all right sure that is the show that realizes that it's just the psychology what was scary about silence of the lamps was that conversation right terrifying yeah 100 percent conversation is terrifying in the room with a person like this is terrifying yeah and also mind hunter I think

[02:10:59] it's just about like me reading a wikipedia entry late at night of some serial killer and like you're just sort of like slowly reading it and you're like like that's it

[02:11:09] why am I interested in this right why do I want to know more yeah and why am I suddenly like so frightened even though I'm only reading a thing right just so that weird

[02:11:18] fascination we have with like I want to understand why a person would do this or what they did it is it is so beautiful that Clarice ends up being the one to catch him because she is trying to

[02:11:29] just finish off all the loose ends and the fucking fake out yeah the thing that should not work every time I watch it it works I'm just like everybody's ripped it off once you've

[02:11:37] once you know what's happening you're like it's not gonna get to me every time yeah every single time and then one of the greatest action sequences of all time is is the night vision

[02:11:47] sequence yeah even though it's very brief like you think of it as this very long tense thing it's not that long because the jet the concept is so terrifying so the second he turns on the

[02:11:57] night vision yeah and and demi switches to his perspective which we've never been in before really right I mean I guess I guess a little bit looking down at the ublee but you know like

[02:12:05] it's sort of like a jarring switch I also love that thing where I thought I was with my hero now I'm watching my poor hero be like stalked in the night and the questioning is great leading

[02:12:14] up to it the moment where Buffalo Bill realizes that she might catch him and he like stifles a laugh yeah like a really sad yeah their interaction is really interesting right then goes for the gun

[02:12:25] and then she goes down to the basement and you have that amazing brooksmith scene of her being like don't worry I've saved you and her just being like fuck you say get me out of here now

[02:12:34] as a no I gotta catch the guy first and she's like fuck you each shit like she's like there's no thank you there's none of that of course I love that a female cop is rescuing me that feels great

[02:12:50] like she's like you don't get this fucking guy he's gonna you're gonna join me in this pit in five seconds yeah get me now and of course there's that we forgot there's the whole thing which

[02:13:00] she lures the dog down which is you know yeah it's great being very innovative everybody in this movie gets to be smart and even Buffalo Bill gets to be smart and it's just like that makes it so much

[02:13:10] better yes 100 doesn't the sequence because we know the space kind of what he lives in what the basement is like but when you're actually exploring it in the perspective of the handheld shots yeah

[02:13:21] it is the moths flying around the industry yeah playing in the background I love that moth sequence that's another classic demi like let me I want to look at these guys faces for a second I

[02:13:32] want to understand these people beyond just like exposition yeah people it's like when you'd go to your grandparents house they go in the basement they'd have a bunch of weird shit and they'd be

[02:13:40] like don't get too close to the pit you'll fall into the pit like yeah and the fact that it's someone else's weird house that he took over and put like half of his shit into it but it's

[02:13:49] also like half stuff he just hasn't gotten rid of yeah and it's like you see yeah the elements like there's a map of the US and it's like there's no let's just somebody else hung that

[02:13:56] that's another life that we don't get any part of right some of the house I feel like are some of the design and I might be wrong it's again is the there is a game yeah they kind of did a little

[02:14:07] bit of like touch to Buffalo Bill with incorporating that real serial killer is like Ted Bundy and Ed Gein or like it's some weird combo of those things like he has the Ted Bundy like

[02:14:18] blurring the lady with the cast and all that but it is nice that like Clarice solves it independently yes calls Glenn and he's like we figured it out but like good job right now just like finish it up

[02:14:30] you know do the follow-up interview right but she goes in having accomplished everything on her own so she is fully loaded to be able to handle the situation right she's her hypothetically and then it's just some of the most terrifying shit in the history of cinema she's herp

[02:14:47] she's her be she's fully loaded oh she's fully loaded some of the most horrifying shit in the history of cinema I just needed to get it out congratulations it is just like the the level of like restraint

[02:15:01] and sort of like the precision of the timing and the blocking on the bills pov through the night vision goggles reaching out to her face constantly almost touching her but missing

[02:15:13] and foster it just is like killing that scene right I mean playing the complete as I don't know how they actually shot that yeah no I don't know what she could or couldn't see right but she is perfectly

[02:15:26] playing someone who does not think that the killer is that close to her but understands that she is at immediate risk his hands are out and he's coveting I know I mean awful bills kind of a

[02:15:38] turf if you think about it 100% you get your happy ending she's oh then of course I'm having a friend for dinner right I mean then there's a great great closing line totally pretty good yeah I feel like

[02:15:48] Hannibal thought of that like six years ago he was like man if I ever get out and I get to do an ominous phone call I'll say that but that is the thing that do Hannibal had a rector wrote this

[02:15:57] movie yes it is the thing that doomed the public into thinking they wanted to see five more Hannibal movies that's true ending is such a tee up but it's a tee up for a thing you actually don't

[02:16:06] want to see him follow through on that story doesn't really matter not really you don't want to see him eat Anthony held that long walk away you don't want to see them like like hit on the weird romantic

[02:16:16] undertones you don't want to see any extra back to lecture yeah yeah that long walk away to me is always just like I take it as because he disappears into the crowd it's just like there are monsters

[02:16:28] among us exactly and so effective the fact that he never fades to black the fact that it just stays on and on and on and on it's just like somewhere now Hannibal Lecter is existing

[02:16:37] outside of this frame yes getting ready to shout out he's got a jaunty little Bahamian hat and his wig and a wig he's got like long hair glasses yeah so I feel like Hopkins put that costume I was like

[02:16:50] yeah I'm doing this this is me for the next 30 years this is my look um it's like his Twitter account now is just him my server account is incredible um okay box office game let's do it

[02:17:02] February 14th 1991 I just want to say this is the era when I was paying a lot of attention to the box office so I might let's see how we do yeah um this film premiered at the Berlin Film Festival

[02:17:13] where one best director and then came into theaters February it opens number one 13 million pretty strong opening adjusted for inflation that would be 30 wow you know so like a good opening is the president's day weekend so it's a four-day weekend and the domestic total is

[02:17:30] 113 130 130 which was just 279 it was a huge hit and worldwide I think it was 279 like it also 272 world one crazy well overseas 100 yeah it's just massive a big old hit colossal fucking hit okay so number one 13 salons the lambs number two number two is a it was number

[02:17:51] one the previous week when it came out uh was a huge hit of the year that I feel like is now forgotten and it was like shrugging big movie star going serious no idea what it is the big we start but

[02:18:02] he had not gone serious before she she had not gone serious before I mean I mean no not in a leading role she was seen as more of a comedy actress I feel like and this is her being like

[02:18:14] I can be in a thriller no okay she was in this comedy actress and now she's gonna be in a thriller and so you know what it's not whoopee no I didn't I didn't realize this movie was serious but is it

[02:18:24] a bird on a wire it is not fuck but is it goldie no but is it someone of a goldie ilk is it that kind of comedy actress I mean in terms of that she'd been in some rom-coms yes is it mac ryan

[02:18:38] new is it julia july robert sleeping with the enemy correct final total on sleeping with the enemy please uh 90 101 huge hit wow a movie really forgotten like you know people do not remember

[02:18:53] sleeping with him I genuinely thought that came out later that year eighth eighth biggest film of the year wow um huge hit yeah huge time for a sleeping with the enemy remake and you know the of

[02:19:03] yeah yes there that's gonna be a queebie I'm sure um only watching at night like the other big hits of the year terminator two robin hood right beauty the beast sounds of the lamb city slickers hook the

[02:19:14] annas family weird right but like all those movies have at least some cultural tale right right this is the enemy is the number eight and it's sort of like oh okay yeah I guess I remember that that

[02:19:27] movie you talk about like things being cyclical and culture always being this way this is a perfect example of a year where like almost everything is some sort of reboot or see her adaptation or something right because then you have father of the bride

[02:19:39] nake had gone two and a half like a you know the big hits of the year teenage mutant ninja turtles to right I saw all these fucking fear which is a remake yeah you know you like that's

[02:19:47] like a hoity-toity remake right star trek six right crazy the prince of tide just of course was based on a dc comic based on sega genesis yeah it's actually weirdly an adaptation of

[02:20:00] golden axe just no one ever talks about that it's based on the trading card series by tops now number three okay is a new entry this week it is a film we have long discussed doing on this

[02:20:11] podcast Ben is is a king Ralph it is king Ralph was pumping his fist I knew it is a good man was the king yeah I was I was literally going to make a king Ralph reference

[02:20:24] earlier in this podcast I don't want to take that from Ben I was like that's king Ralph it's such a good movie here's the aesthetic because I don't like snooty people hate oh yeah

[02:20:36] I don't like them I don't like aristocrats I don't like people who are bullies because you know you're not as smart as them right king Ralph Ralph's here he goes in there right

[02:20:45] and he's like I like rock and roll and I like sandwiches and y'all are weird you like big guys named Ralph that's your favorite movie that's true that's true uh Ben uh quibe quibe he's calling

[02:20:55] me right now they want to know if you want to be king Ralph in the king Ralph series as long as it's a documentary and I go and I kick the queen out of her chair get out of here um here's the

[02:21:06] thing I want to say about king Ralph's poster a lot of things I love okay one the billing John Goodman Peter O'Toole great billing yes and our tool made it to the to the poster yeah but he

[02:21:21] has to be below it's only two though right two it's a classic double tagline uh-huh one tagline explaining and two is a proper tagline okay you know what I mean where it's like yeah this where

[02:21:31] they're like this is too complicated we need a tagline that explains those lines are like two weeks ago John Lawrence was a normal lawyer exactly so the regular tagline is the tagline you'd expect a comedy of majestic proportions not a good tagline but at least like okay

[02:21:48] like a cute comedy wash your fucking mouth it's a great tagline very good here's the top tagline that's so funny here it is yeah a great tragedy has fallen the royal family leaving only one air

[02:22:02] to the throne not so funny you know I'm laughing you don't think it's a smart business practice to sell your comedy by saying a great tragedy but no so here if you're following as I believe these

[02:22:15] poster people sort of figure out like how your eyes would move across yeah so you're first you're like Goodman and O'Toole you're like huh then great tragedy you're like uh-oh but then your eye scans

[02:22:24] across now here's the queen's crown yeah but it's a top the head of Goodman and he's wearing a shirt that says and I quote Las Vegas there's a couple of dice on it I hate I hate I hate what I'm

[02:22:39] about to do but David you seemed kind of broken up about the thought of the royal family dying what's up with that they seem weirdly invested in a thing just because you've seen it tragedy has

[02:22:49] befallen the royal family like I would have tried to add like a sort of inadvertent gas this is true it would be sad we'd be sad yeah look we all would be sad real big yeah I grew up and David

[02:23:05] I was gonna draw it out you mean I don't didn't want you to okay number four of the box numbers four and five of the box officer two of the giant hits of 1990 okay one one best picture

[02:23:17] and one I think was probably the biggest movie of 1990 just gotta be dancers of wolves and home alone that's correct there we go in that order uh no home alone then dances of wolves which are respectively

[02:23:28] 14 and 15 weeks into their runs home alone can you tell me the final total the final total of home alone was 220 285 that makes no sense I'll be just for inflation is $600 million it's a lot

[02:23:44] of money it's it's infinity war yeah right right you know adjusted for inflation home alone what if the wet bandits were in the new avengers disney owns that movie now kevin feige kevin feige should

[02:23:55] make sure he should get past she's back clearly loves working all the time definitely isn't like baffled by questions such as like what's it like to not have been in a movie for the only

[02:24:06] thing he loves more than being in movies again is talking about those movies uh they're they're disney plusing home alone they are that's actually true and they are disney plusing

[02:24:15] eight heads in a duffel bag uh yeah some of the other no you're david i'm sorry that's going on peshy plus gone fishing again nine heads in a duffel bag my aunt i don't know i could have

[02:24:32] i could have had a third good dumb my aunt she'll my aunt she'll hey that's another peshy movie my aunt vanny is trans culture please don't you don't you maybe that's what peshy wants to go for peshy plus

[02:24:46] peshy's the only sisman still allowed to play a trans woman i have to create you'll speak for the community just because it's like well peshy's in a movie let's just give him some room right

[02:24:55] just so rarely works whatever it takes we gotta get him back up on that screen some other big movies got a l.a story you got never ending story two so two stories uh story's a good movie

[02:25:06] uh yeah never seen it yeah very good mine uh you have nothing but trouble opening this week the uh you know chevy chase danik white bomb yeah you have white fang which i remember watching

[02:25:16] the videos of kid and being kind of freaked out by yeah and awakenings another oscar hold over yes a weird film uh and like thank you for being here thank you so much for having me you're the

[02:25:27] best uh in the biz uh prime time prime time we're uh i can't say right now uh we're working on okay we have a season two we're pitching out to get sponsors and stuff um so there is a season

[02:25:39] two in the works you cannot say what it is or when it will be coming out my hope is that i will be able to say what it is when this episode drops and i'll do that on twitter at t o ti hell fantastic uh one

[02:25:49] of the best follows uh on the internet and also this is a great place to plug that uh i think you're interesting is coming back as a series exclusively made up of jail i was talking to

[02:25:59] jail i know right um no i also have a book about the x files show that i talked about monster of the week monsters of the week the complete critical companion to the x files

[02:26:08] uh and the real reason i'm here uh my uh scripted show arden is started season two december 30th we hope we haven't recorded anything yet and this is early october so yeah podcast yeah but it's

[02:26:20] it's a podcast arden yeah arden uh it was uh in season two right now so please go listen to that check it out tree crime fun uh best in the biz absolutely yes thank you talking about yourself

[02:26:33] true yeah oh yeah and the divine producer am you won several uh potty awards right for best podcasting um i'd rather not talk about i i made the mistake of campaigning as supporting it's like a

[02:26:50] but if if we missed anything listeners sure it's that time of year we need some ratings some reviews oh so wano instead of tweeting at us or and of course you can still do if you prefer

[02:27:04] oh the other side is frightening perhaps maybe leaving this rating is a little rating of what we missed can i make one of course give us five stars can i make one last pitch to the listeners

[02:27:15] please i know march madness is coming up this is where this is coming on january yeah i know you guys are thinking about what that lineup is i don't know what's going to be in it

[02:27:23] my wife liby hill uh tv awards editor indy wire has made it a goal of her life to be on every movie podcast talking about bison teniel man and uh columbus win he was in a bracket last year

[02:27:33] please vote chris columbus listeners i want to make my life's wife hell because she will have to watch bison teniel man dozens of times one of the most unpleasant movies to watch yeah truly

[02:27:44] just just one of those one of those movies where like your eye just kind of slipped off the screen where you're like this is still going on but also you constantly feel like there are ants

[02:27:53] crawling on your skin somehow watching it makes you feel like physically like jittery so if you want my wife liby hill to be on this podcast to talk to just be like griffin why are you talking about

[02:28:04] this right now i want that more than anything vote columbus bison teniel man baby uh next week philadelphia that's right we're we're heading we're heading to the i don't know whatever thank you all

[02:28:18] for listening please remember to rate review subscribe i was gonna try to say something funny and my brain just fizzled out it happens thanks dance for good over social media lay my government for a

[02:28:27] theme song job on pet rounds for artwork go to blankie star red that comforts a real little like a cheese steak i was thinking but i couldn't put the math together fast enough i'm i'm no

[02:28:37] good while hunting uh go to the buy shirts and patreon uh i around this time uh maybe right right before right after this we'll be releasing our official performance review of the marvel

[02:28:55] cinematic universe not since the star wars days gethard is coming on with us and we're going to review every credited character in endgame and i'm sure talk about kit this stuff it probably a time

[02:29:08] um so uh yeah check that out uh and uh as as always uh j j leno slides into dms like if you uh can i do something very unexpected yeah sure little merchandise spotlight sure sure go ahead

[02:29:28] okay so in the late 1990s todd mcfarrow lin he of the comic books first marvel yeah but then eventually creates him on comics yes founds image that comes weirdly like owns the advent

[02:29:41] and oilers maybe or something like that huge hanky also at one point in time owned both sami sosa and mark maguire's uh record-breaking homerun balls weird he bought the balls yeah he lost them he had to sell them because he named a pedophile mobster character in a spawn

[02:30:02] comic after a hockey player because he's such a big hockey fan he was like oh funny easter egg and then the guy sued him for defamation and he had to pay the guy like tens of millions of dollars

[02:30:12] so he had to sell his baseballs carry on was very obsessed with todd mcfarrow lin as a young man largely because at the peak of spawns uh like cultural relevance all the toy companies wanted

[02:30:24] to get the rights to spawn and he was like fuck you you guys suck i'm starting my own toy company and everyone's like this is stupid you're gonna fail and it succeeded big wildly yes and the spawn

[02:30:34] toys sold really well but the thing that pushed him out of the edge was he started a line called movie maniacs that was what if you took all the interesting characters in adult films who

[02:30:45] toy companies have been afraid to touch but also who are the only visually interesting character in a movie so you couldn't make an entire toy line off of that movie but you can put them all in as a grab

[02:30:56] back okay so he did a series that was like freddy kruger jason vorre he's leather face sure uh when michael mires i think was maybe in the first batch whatever uh that then became one of the

[02:31:08] ten greatest selling toy lines of the year along with like hot wheels and barbie and shit yes so immediately people were like Hannibal Hannibal right and for years and years everyone's

[02:31:17] trying to get Hannibal and uh no one could because hopkins was like i don't want to be a toy like hopkins was like always uh shutting it down and it was like 10 plus years of wind up until someone

[02:31:29] was able to make not mcfarland people who had left mcfarland started their own company two Hannibal Lecter figures one on the stretcher one which is really unsettling of Hannibal with the the um billy club being able to attack the guy uh being able to attack

[02:31:45] the guy jesus christ but the thing i want to show you folks this is that one that's that one yep comes with the little cell the thing i want to show you folks that i find very funny

[02:31:54] is the series of mini mates which are lego-esque figures of the sansa lambs crew Hannibal Lecter gotta get a funko pop i mean you talk about the iconography i think he

[02:32:08] matt's make a sin does matt's michael sin does yeah oh sure um but these are the uh sansa the lamps oh wow yeah so there's clarece okay i does speak to how sort of iconic every character

[02:32:21] in the movie is that they can be recognized even in this form here's buffalo bell holding him off with a painted on nipple ring and then uh uh hand up a Hannibal

[02:32:34] these are bizarre i don't like so there's that Hannibal looks a lot like nixon it does he does look like nixon david yeah he looks like your best friend i would like to add to the merchandise

[02:32:43] spotlight there is now a okay it's him on the gurney with the mask yeah makes sense i've always wanted buffalo bill's necklace if everyone knows or i could get that necklace i think it looks cool that's it great