Spider-Man 3 with Jamelle Bouie

[00:00:01] Blank Check with Griffin and David, Blank Check with Griffin and David Don't know what to say or to expect All you need to know is that the name of the show is Blank Check You know, I guess one podcast really can make a difference. Okay. Enough said!

[00:00:26] That's what you wanted to do? I wanted to- I had- I was debating a couple things. Okay. There's this whole monologue at the opening, because I did that for- I know, but it feels very strange that there's- yeah, that he comes back to that for this. Yeah.

[00:00:40] What happens in the beginning of 2 as well? Does it? Yeah. Yeah. But, uh, but the one here is not. It's me, Peter Parker. Your friendly neighborhood? You know. I've come a long way since I was the boy bit by a spider.

[00:00:53] Back then nothing seemed to go right for me. Now people really like me. The city is safe and sound? Guess I had a little something to do with that. My Uncle Ben would be proud. I still go to school. Wait, you're just doing the monologue? Stop it!

[00:01:05] And I'm in love. I don't want you to do that. With the podcast of my dreams! Shut up. That is a moment where I remember just seeing this in theaters opening day. Not Times Square. Lincoln Square. IMAX. Took my sister.

[00:01:19] Uh, what? She must have been like 9 at this point. 8.9, yeah. Yeah. These movies are a big thing that we shared. We're both wearing Spider-Man t-shirts. Everyone's fucking amped. And that monologue starts, I'm like, this is going on a little too long.

[00:01:30] Like it was just one of those immediate moments of like... A little slight deflation. Just a little slight deflation. Just going, okay, I'll grant him this. Today we are talking about Spider-Man 3. Spider-Man 3? Spider-Man 3. The Battle Within. The Battle Within? That was the tagline. The Battle Within begins...

[00:01:47] I just see the Battle Within. I go, well maybe there was a, uh huh, right. Yeah. I remember the iconic drop of the first poster. This one. Right. Where it was like, wait is this in black and white? Or is, wait, what? That was the thing.

[00:02:03] The poster came in and everyone went, oh moody. And then Sony went, by the way, that poster's in color. Yeah. Yes, I remember that. Ain't it cool exploded? Yes. Um, we're here to talk about Sam Raimi's Spider-Man 3. See it in IMAX, Griffin. You did. I did.

[00:02:19] Uh, the end of Sam Raimi's Spider-Man trilogy. Yes. Almost unintentionally. Well that's what's weird is I think everyone viewed it at the time as like, he's going to finish the Spider-Man trilogy.

[00:02:29] And then very shortly afterwards it became clear that he was like, I want to keep making these. Especially after this one. I really want to keep making them. I don't think I ever thought of this as the conclusion to a trilogy. It doesn't feel like one.

[00:02:41] It's maybe the conclusion of the Harry Osborn trilogy. That's the thing that made it feel like a conclusion and I think Maguire's salary was going... But it's not a conclusion to Spider-Man's story in the slightest. No. No. No. Although I...

[00:02:55] Not that there needs to be a conclusion to the story. No, I do like the messiness of the ending. It's a conclusion of the Harry Osborn arc, absolutely. I think, you know, we just did the Batman Forever commentary yesterday for Patreon. Absolutely.

[00:03:06] And we were talking about that's the last moment when the idea of these franchises, maybe you just treat them like James Bond and you never have to hit the reset button. Right. If you lose cast members... Fine, bring someone else in. Whatever. Who cares?

[00:03:17] You don't have the same supporting cast. You dump characters off at the side. Who gives a shit? There's a new girlfriend every time. Which I will say, I think there's a lot to be said for that approach. Absolutely.

[00:03:25] I think there's a lot to be said for sort of not being so precious about this stuff. Well, because the alternate thing is that you do have to start being like, okay, well, so there's a multiverse. Because it's the only way you can deal with a 30-entry series...

[00:03:36] Right. That has to maintain continuity. Right. You have to be like, yeah, well, sure, that guy died, but he needs to come back, so we're going to pull him out of this dimension or whatever. There's that thing of like, you know, Judi Dench signs a five-movie deal.

[00:03:49] They get rid of Pierce Brosnan three movies in. They're like, well, we just keep her. Yeah. And here's a new franchise, a new start, a reset with the beginning of his career.

[00:03:58] And everyone went, look, this seems to confirm this fan theory that was long held that James Bond is a title. It is not a proper name. It goes along with 007. All of these guys are different people.

[00:04:09] And then Skyfall actually goes out of its way to show like the gravestone of his parents and be like Mary and Fred. Are those the actual names or could it be anything? You know, like Janice and Rogers Bond.

[00:04:25] But for how much like the, you know, the Craig series is so much more trying to play the game of like tight chronology and serialized storytelling and everything. It still remains the only franchise that is just like we just move along. Yeah, I admire that. I like that.

[00:04:41] I do too. I like that. And I think it is now hard to remember as insane as this is to say even just a little over a decade later how insane it felt when the announcement came out. Sony is hitting the big red button.

[00:04:56] They're sending Peter Parker back to high school. They're restarting the entire cycle. You're right. It was insane at the time. Now it might even feel less insane because we're so used to all this stuff. But I do remember the time.

[00:05:10] The thing I like 10 years is not long enough to be presenting me with a new Spider-Man. No, and like three years from when the last one came out. Right. And they had a release date for four announced. It comes out five years after it comes out. Right.

[00:05:25] But I think it was two or three years after. And the headline was Peter Parker is going back to high school. And we're all like, phew. The thing they were centralizing was we feel like he's best as a teenager.

[00:05:35] We got out of high school too quickly in the Ramy trilogy. Do you read comics, Jermell? I do read comics, yeah. Do you remember? I'm sorry. Introduce our show and our guests and then I have a question for Jermell. Absolutely.

[00:05:45] This is a podcast called Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin. Hi, David. Good job there. It was so fast I almost couldn't hear it. Right, right, right. Like it was a Doppler effect.

[00:05:57] It's a podcast about filmography's directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks, make whatever crazy passion projects they want. Sometimes those checks clear. Sometimes they bounce baby. Sometimes they swing also.

[00:06:09] This is a mini series on the films of Sam Ramy. It's called Podcast Me to Hell. And today we're talking about what inarguably has to be viewed as his biggest bounce. I think within the cultural legacy of his career.

[00:06:20] And it's probably the thing that the film that's the most interesting in the arc of his career. If you're talking about the external arc of his career. Right. And a movie that he has openly talked about kind of breaking him. Not being able to get over, sure. Right.

[00:06:32] The reception to it. Right. It's called Spiderman 3 as we said. Our guest today is one of the smartest men on the planet, Jermell Bowie of the New York Times

[00:06:38] and Unclear and Present Danger who I just want to say one of the either on the Reddit or message board thread that I saw when we announced Ramy people go, holy shit. Does this mean we're finally going to get Jermell's Spiderman 3 is good tape.

[00:06:55] I think you've, you know, but this was the thing you had out on the internet. You hadn't tweeted anything about this mini series, but people just put the threads together and they said,

[00:07:04] I know there's this Jermell Bowie Spiderman 3 is actually good take that exists in the ether that has never been fully unpacked. This podcast seems to finally be providing the perfect landing place for that. Now David has always contended that he hates this movie. That's not true.

[00:07:20] Not hate, but don't like. I don't like it. I've always been like, I think there's good stuff. I think that movie gets kind of a bad rap.

[00:07:28] I certainly don't think it works, but I think there's really good stuff in it that I like and I prefer to most superhero movies. Even more coherent tighter thing.

[00:07:37] I would always give you that in any debate where I'm like, obviously it's a true original versus what the genre is. I just do think over the years I've had to push more on. I don't like it.

[00:07:46] I know you, you have always taken the stance of this movie is good. I think it's a good movie. Yeah. I think that it is obviously not does not compare to Spiderman 2, but what does right?

[00:07:57] Spiderman 2 is I think still sort of like the great height of this entire genre. And pretty much. Yep. But I think, I think, I think having watched before we're speaking, I watched all these sort of night after night back to back.

[00:08:11] And when you watch Spiderman 3, like two days after watching this first Spiderman, the drop off in quality isn't really that it's not really there. I mean, there are parts of Spiderman 3 which do not work and I will acknowledge that. Yes.

[00:08:25] And I, but I think overall taking, taking, taking this entire package, I think it's a good movie. I look, I still, I finished watching it last night and I said, I had a good time with this. I go to two one three with quite a golf.

[00:08:37] I feel like that's the popular ranking. Right? Sure. But I do think the drop off is, as you said, less severe than it was in my mind's eye. I think time has been a little kind to this movie. It has.

[00:08:48] In ways that now we are so warped by what superhero movies are that this film feels oddly quaint for a movie that was like the epitome of over stuff. Bloat! Too many villains! Right. Too much going on.

[00:09:00] I think, I think, I think what, one of the things that renders it quaint is that, and we were just talking about the, the Garfield, Andrew Garfield, Mark Webb, Spiderman movies, Mark Webb, and Amazing Spider-Man 2 is also over stuff, but not just with villains and characters, but with lore.

[00:09:20] Yes. It's sort of like, it's a way down by having to explain. That movie feels desperate. Right. And it's trying very quickly. It's sort of like what Batman vs Superman does as well, where they're just like, let's play some videos.

[00:09:32] Aquaman, the flight, you know, like we're just like, we need to lay some track for all this shit we got to do. But Amazing Spider-Man 2 is both trying to like course correct for what people didn't like about Amazing Spider-Man 1 and continue the threads that they didn't really successfully.

[00:09:46] Right. And set up seven side movies. Right. And kind of go back to Rainey vibes. But Spider-Man 3, it's overstuffed in the sense that there are, there is, there's one too many villains. Yeah. But generally speaking, this is a pretty small scale story, right?

[00:10:01] Like, like the previous two movies, the thing, this is a movie about Peter Parker, Mary Jane Watson and Harry Osborn. Yep. And I think the fact that it is still very focused on these three characters and their relationships is what makes it work.

[00:10:16] And what makes it stand out even in comparison to the MCU. This is my whole thing. So I was always just like, look, as the way I was putting it to David, you know, I think I rewatched this maybe like two or three years ago.

[00:10:32] And then last night I watched the editor's cut, which have you ever seen? I've not seen. Okay. So I have some things to say about that as well. But my defense of it was sort of like, it's like a lesser Vincent Minnelli or Stanley Donen musical.

[00:10:44] It's like watching a kind of perfunctory MGM musical from the golden age that doesn't really hang together. But like the fucking sequences that work are still just so bravura and well made that I greatly prefer that to anything else.

[00:10:57] And it's got charm and it's got style and all that sort of stuff. But watching it this time, I was just taken by. And let's just say, David, we saw Doctor Strange in the multi-purpose of madness last night. We did.

[00:11:09] I literally did a back to back Sam Raimi double feature. Sure. I did. I just did the other way around. Yeah.

[00:11:15] And it is like kind of astonishing comparison to watch that this movie for as much as the fundamental problem of it is Venom, New Goblin and Sandman are three different movies and they never figure out how to like collate them into one story.

[00:11:29] The fundamental thread is incredibly clear and straightforward, which is just the Harry, Peter, Mary Jane thing. And I like that. I can just fucking hang on to that. What was the question you were going to ask Jamal?

[00:11:40] I was going to ask Jamal if he remembered Brand New Day. One more day, Brand New Day. Yeah. Which was the comic book version. Huh? Hated it. Right.

[00:11:50] Which was the comic book version of what you're talking about, though, where they were like, Spider-Man, there's just not something working about this. And it's a common writer complaint, I think, going back way because that was the Clone Saga was kind of about that too.

[00:12:00] Can we uncouple him from Mary Jane? She's not an interesting character. Their marriage is not interesting. He's become a stagnant character. And they would, Clone Saga was, they were like, what if we do this and someone else becomes Peter Parker, someone else becomes Spider-Man?

[00:12:14] And fans were like, no. All right, sorry. Ultimate Spider-Man is huge, which for those who don't know, it was like in between X-Men and the first Spider-Man movie, Marvel goes, we need to have a comic book on shelves that has like clean continuity as an entry point.

[00:12:31] And he's not fucking married to Mary Jane. For both X-Men and Spider-Man works like, let's have this basically resemble the status quo of the movies that they're going to see. And then those are huge. Those are huge. And those are good.

[00:12:42] The Bendis Ultimate Spider-Man run is very good. Right. And then Raimi is so focused on the love story thing that I think they're like, there has to be some element of him chasing a girl. That's working in Ultimate. It's working in the movies. Sure.

[00:12:55] And in Amazing, he is a happily married school teacher. Right, right. And so One More Day is this preposterous way from the break. I remember enjoying that, hating that because I definitely did not like it. I did not like it.

[00:13:07] Mephisto steals their marriage as a price for saving Aunt May's life. Ben, the premise here is that Aunt May is going to die and Spider-Man's like, give her one more day.

[00:13:16] And Mephisto, who's essentially Marvel's Satan, is like, I'll keep your elderly, probably close to death anyway, aunt alive. 80 something. If you let me rewrite the timeline so that you were never married to fucking Mary Jane and you don't know her. And Peter Parker's like, why?

[00:13:30] And he's like, I just love your marriage. It doesn't really make sense. So convoluted. A weird thing in Marvel lore is that basically all gods and mythologies are true. It's all real. It's all real. It's like, yeah, you heard of Norse gods. They live on a planet somewhere.

[00:13:44] You heard of Mephisto. Yeah, he's a guy. He's got like fire hair and a tall collar. He sits on a bone throne. Right. Oh fuck. Oh shit. Damn, he's legit. But he's no good. He's no good. You don't want to get tangled up with him.

[00:13:57] Yeah, but he's just like, I love you being single. And they're like, why? And they're like, cause Marvel editor in chief Joe Quesada thinks it's more relatable to young readers. It's funny.

[00:14:06] A couple years later, they did another, I guess not a couple, four or five years later, they did another kind of big reboot that worked much better. And that was the superior Spider-Man. Yes. Where when Dr. Octopus is put into his body. Right.

[00:14:17] A thing that on its face people were like, this is fucking horrible. People were initially horrified. Right. But it really does work because it shakes up the status quo. And it's about like, what is heroic about Spider-Man? Right.

[00:14:27] It's very similar to Stark deconstructed, but just like one of my favorite Iron Man arcs, which Ben, if you don't know the premise of this one, it is, it's someone, it's like someone is stealing the Iron Man technology as often happens.

[00:14:40] And so what Tony Stark does is he basically sort of like, he goes from place to place, not just deleting information, deleting the part of his mind that contains it. And so he's literally deconstructing his own mind. He's literally deconstructing his mind over time.

[00:14:57] And the whole story is like, what actually makes Tony Stark, Tony Stark? What makes Iron Man, Iron Man? And it's a really smart, like take on my character. Comic books are so good. Those are always the best. Yeah, comic books are fucking cool.

[00:15:09] And is the comic interior of his mind kind of? It's both. It's both. Okay. That sounds really interesting. But that's always like the best.

[00:15:17] I feel like so often the best superhero arcs, the ones that linger with us are the ones where a writer comes in with a radical idea to just go like, I want to answer the fundamental question. Who is this guy and what makes them special? Batman RIP. Yes.

[00:15:33] These are all kind of actually concurrent. They're all kind of. Right. It's all made 2000. Yeah. And like, I would argue all the best superhero movies try to do that same thing.

[00:15:42] Like they treat it like an outside the box arc where it's like we have to fundamentally test this character and why they are this person and why they do this and all of that.

[00:15:51] I will say as someone who only really kind of casually read comics, the continuity thing was such like I was like, where is this story? What's happening? It was so hard to get into it. Ben, the ultimate thing was they were like, you can buy a comic book.

[00:16:05] It's called Ultimate Spider-Man issue number one. It takes place in the year 2000. Peter Parker's in high school. He gets bitten by a bug. And the whole point was like, you can go to the shelves. But what happened to them?

[00:16:16] What happened is over five years, eventually it became just as convoluted. The same problem. Right. They had to start undoing things because it was the exact same thing. They just build up continuity. And now they've just done that with the movie franchise. And then guess what happens?

[00:16:29] And they were like, all right, forget the ultimate thing. But then Ultimate Spider-Man can go live in the regular. They only made it more complicated at the end of the day. They start smushing everything together. Yes, Ben, that is exactly what happened with the movies

[00:16:38] where they like made the movies a clean entry point. And now the movies are constantly playing this gambit of like, is this going to make sense if I haven't seen the 27 other things? Do I need to have watched the entire show?

[00:16:48] And so far it continues to work for them. Yeah. But I do wonder if there will be that point that has happened in every wave of comics where it just goes like, this is impossible to enter into. Or if streaming services essentially have negated that being an issue.

[00:17:04] If like viewer habits and just the fact that now all of it is just on one site makes it so that people go like, my project for the year is I'm just going to watch all of this and catch up.

[00:17:13] I think it will continue to work as long as the writers and creators and everyone remembers that the lore isn't the point. Yes. Right? Like as soon as you, this was sort of, I mean the DC stuff is much more, you know, short lived.

[00:17:28] There's not as much of it. But this was the central problem with all of that. It was like the lore was the point. It was sort of like, it was all about, you know, what was the backstory? How are these things connected or whatnot?

[00:17:38] But if you can just tell a straightforward story and like drops and sprinkles to other things for people to kind of grab onto if they care, that means it's fine. Look, when people want to ding Feige for this being done

[00:17:51] in a way that feels a little bit vacuous or sort of like insincere or whatever, you can. But it is, it remains the superpower of those movies. And they're like hold on the culture is that they keep focused on let's make these characters charming to people.

[00:18:09] Let's isolate what the characteristics they like are. What's funny about this actor? Give actors good showcases that show their personality and build up relationships and all that sort of shit. Spider-Man 3. Spider-Man 3. Which came out in 2007. It's written by Sam Raimi, Ivan Raimi, and Alvin Sargent. Yeah.

[00:18:26] It's about Spider-Man. It's a 15-year-old movie. It's a 15-year-old movie, that's right. And we've had... It's 15 years old. Six movies in that time with Spider-Man in the title. Tomorrow. 15 years old tomorrow. 15 years old tomorrow. Has it been six?

[00:18:38] Six. You have two Garfields, three Hollins, and Into the Spider-Verse. Into the Spider-Verse. Six solo Spider-Man movies in the 15 years since this. People like this guy. Three different characters. I'll say, I mean of those six movies... Three different portrayals, yeah.

[00:18:51] Spider-Verse really feels like the only thing that's done something like genuinely exciting. Yep. I would agree with that. Yep. Yeah, yeah. I mean like you say six movies, but also Tom Holland plays Spider-Man in an additional three movies. Right. And we have two more Spider-Verses on the way.

[00:19:09] Two more Spider-Verses on the way, and no doubt there will be more Tom Hollands on the way. Yeah. And of course recently we met an MD by the name of Michael Morbius. I hope this guy doesn't make house calls. I hear he's a living vampire.

[00:19:23] This is the thing with this guy. He ain't dead! You can check his pulse and you'll hear it. All right. Tap, tap. And we met Venom. We did meet Venom. And we met Carnage. Vulture. Met Morbius. And we met all vultures around us. Let there be Carnage.

[00:19:37] We let there. We didn't have to let it. We let Carnage be there. That's on us. Truly? I feel like. That's why you have to vote. That's why you have to vote. We're letting there be Carnage right now. That's why you have to vote.

[00:19:48] A very cynical joke by me. But in Spider-Man 3 there had only been two other Spider-Man movies, and that was it. Yep. And so the plot is that Peter Parker is Spider-Man, Mary Jane Watson knows that he is Spider-Man, and they are together. Yeah.

[00:20:01] She's an actress of sort of slightly amorphous fame. I'm not really like, is she a Broadway star? Is she a nobody? Look, here's what I would equate her to. I would almost say she's at like a Tavi Gevinson level or like Tavi like 10 years ago where you're like,

[00:20:15] here's someone who's kind of famous, and then they're doing Broadway shows, and people are doubting them, and they're quitting themselves slightly better than people imagined. They're not maybe known by the public at large. Right. I'm just going to try and very quickly do the plot of this movie,

[00:20:27] like just in order to what the setup of this movie is. Good luck. Right. Spider-Man is Spider-Man. He is Spider-Man. People like him. It's going great. He's on an upswing. People are losing their minds about Spider-Man. People are generally pro-Spider-Man.

[00:20:38] Which is maybe the reason why the second the movie starts, I was like, this feels wrong. It does feel wrong. Spider-Man should never be popular. Right. He should always be kind of like one step behind. Blah, blah, blah.

[00:20:48] And he is greeted with three problems that kind of just come at him in a sort of like do, do, do, do, do, do, do. Like they never really unite, but three villains. Yes. His old buddy, Harry Osborn.

[00:20:59] Even when all three villains are on screen at the same time at the end of the movie, they never feel like they're in the same film. It is. I mean, I guess we'll get to it, David, but I have to say, I mean, one of the villains, Venom,

[00:21:08] is literally introduced via a meteor that comes into frame, disconnected from everything happening in the movie. Just happens to happen. It's almost like a producer just kind of lobbed it from off screen and it landed on the script. This movie, look, it absolutely has a lot of coincidences,

[00:21:24] strong coincidences that need to line up for anything to happen. Sure. Rather than, you know, character action. Right. So there's the villain we would all expect. Harry has decided to become a new Green Goblin. The new Goblin. He's the new Goblin. He's got kind of a-

[00:21:38] He's avenging him. Yeah. Right. He's got kind of a, not a major glider, more of a sort of snowboardy glider. Wasn't there a character called Hobgoblin? There was. They never do Hobgoblin. Is he connected to- Yeah. But they're not like Hobberson.

[00:21:54] It's them trying to repeat the original mystery of Green Goblin, because when Green Goblin was introduced, part of it was like, who is the Green Goblin? Right. And so Hobgoblin, it was a lot of like, who could this be? Hobgoblin was like a copycat. He was a copycat.

[00:22:05] He just had, he was like 80% more pumpkin-y. He was like the same thing with more pumpkins. I loved about him. I was kind of almost like, wait, am I going to get some fucking pumpkins? And then there's also, what's his name? Mad Jack?

[00:22:15] Yeah, there were so many goblin-y guys. Mad Jack was like all fucking pumpkin-y. Right. Pumpkin for a head. Like he's a fucking, like a skeleton. That's a great choice on his part. But Harry became a Green Goblin too. Right, he's Green Goblin this episode. And then there's Demogoblin.

[00:22:30] Goblin Jr. As Peter calls him. Ned Leeds becomes Demogoblin? Or became one of the other fucking goblins? I don't know. There were a lot of goblins. But canonically in the comics, when Harry becomes the goblin, he is the new Green Goblin. He's not the new goblin.

[00:22:43] He puts on the fucking... He takes the mantle on. Yeah, so he doesn't re-make it. We got Harry Goblin. As much as Harry Goblin. Harry Goblin. We've got the Sandman. Who of course is not just a man of sand,

[00:22:55] but it turns out is the murderer of Uncle Ben. Uh-huh. And then later in the movie, we have Eddie Brock, rival photographer, who later in the movie becomes Venom. So those are three things that are happening. And they're like... Kind of in parallel.

[00:23:08] Yes, they are kind of three complete attempts at, in microcosm... Three columns. Three silos. Here's what their deal is. Here's how they relate to Peter Parker's journey. And this is the arc that they have with each other. It's like three complete movies that are all smushed together.

[00:23:26] And I think you could have... If you took out Venom, I think you'd have a movie that works better. If you took out Sandman, I think you'd have a movie that works better. I think two out of three they could have pulled off.

[00:23:36] I think you can pull off two of those villains in part because they all... I mean, they all have thematic resonance. They're not just... It's not just a villain for the sake of a villain necessarily. Eddie Brock is sort of...

[00:23:48] What if Peter Parker were even a bigger shit? And how would that manifest itself? The Harry stuff is self-explanatory. And Sandman is sort of like... Offers an opportunity for what you saw in Spider-Man 2, which is a villain conflict that's resolved

[00:24:03] not by Peter Parker beating the shit out of someone, but by something internal to him. Relating to the humanity. Overcoming a thing about himself. This is the whole thing with this movie. They are very similar. Right, because Doctor Octopus is the same where it's like,

[00:24:16] what does he want to do? He wants to rob a bank. It doesn't really matter what he wants. It's all about he needs to overcome or he needs to reach the conclusion of this internal arc that he is going.

[00:24:26] I think all three of these things in microcosm work on paper. And I think any one of these three options is valid as an approach for what you do for Spider-Man 3. And it's fine to have two villains. I think two would have worked.

[00:24:37] I also think if it had been one, and even if the one he did was Avi Arad forcing Venom on him or Sony forcing Goblin on him rather than Samen, which is clearly the one he wants to do the most.

[00:24:50] I think if it was just focused on one of them, he could have completely nailed this. Even the Venom movie, I think if actually given space, although it's the one he clearly wants to do the least. Yeah, it is.

[00:25:02] I think there's something there that he could have made work. I think when you get to like a meteor falls from the sky and happens to land on his bike and then follows him back to his apartment, all the things in the movie that are totally weird

[00:25:12] and slapdash and Russian, whatever, come from them just being like, how do we do all of these at the same time? Just fucking grant us this shortcut. And the movie takes so many shortcuts that by the end, you're just kind of like...

[00:25:23] You could very easily imagine a Venom-centric movie that carries on with Mary Jane's former fiancee, who is an astronaut. He's Man-Wolf, come on now. Now if they'd done Man-Wolf... Sorry, go on. No, and I think there's a Venom...

[00:25:40] Not just what you're saying about him being a little bit of a shit, but the Frank Grimes of it, I think is a little interesting. These first two movies have presented Peter Parker as being such a sad sack.

[00:25:49] And so bottom of the barrel, everything's so hard for him. And to have someone show up who's like, nothing works for me. I didn't get bit by a fucking spider. The girl doesn't end up with me.

[00:25:59] The thing I like the most in the Eddie Brock plotline in this is that he and Gwen never really have a relationship. And he's just like, no, she's going to come around to me. I like that, but it also makes no sense and is sort of baffling from...

[00:26:16] I like it in that it abuses me. In execution, it just feels like... But I think you could do the whole Grimes-y... Real quick, David, I just want to ask you something about the Eddie Brock arc. The thing that really breaks Eddie Brock

[00:26:30] is that he plagiarizes a photo and Peter Parker catches him. Which is the sort of classic comic book origin story for him. Would you have read it out, Brock? Watching it now, 12 years into being a journalist? Two journalists. Fuck that guy. Yeah, 100%. And he's so craven.

[00:26:51] Craven de somebody. Hello! Hello! The biggest game of all is in Central Park! I really wish they had done Craven. I know Ruby wanted to do him. Eddie Brock doesn't make a lot of sense in this movie in any way, but it's what you're talking about

[00:27:07] where he shows up and he's like, I'm pretty cool. I want a staff job. And he forges a photo and all that. And Spider-Man's like, you made this up? He's like, please, man, I got nothing else. He immediately flips to... I don't have any prospects!

[00:27:21] His entire arc needs to happen in essentially four scenes that each take place 30 minutes apart from each other. You're like, Peter is honestly almost doing... Even if Peter wasn't a dick after this, he's doing J. Jonah Jameson a favor here. Like, this guy is so bad

[00:27:36] that he immediately resorted to this. But that's why I bring up the Frank Grimes thing because I just think there could be a thing where there's like death by a thousand paper cuts. He continues to embarrass this guy leading up to the big moment.

[00:27:46] Right, that there's more of a rivalry. And look, this is the problem. As we all know, and I can get into a little more, but I think a lot of people know, Raimi wanted to do a movie with the Sandman and Harry Osborn. And Avi Arad was like,

[00:27:57] Sam, the fans demand Venom! I'm doing a Transylvanian accent for an Israeli guy. I don't know why. I'm like, yeah, yeah, blah. But like, you know, blah, blah, blah. But right, like, you know, Venom is crowbarred in. But then of course, Venom actually becomes crucial

[00:28:11] to both the theme of the movie, which is like Peter wrestling with his darker side, right? To the advertising in the movie, the black suit and everything. The whole fucking thing. So you're going into this movie being like, all right, okay. This is like a Venom movie.

[00:28:25] And then the movie is like so uninterested in that for most of the plot. The other thing is, for what it's worth. And it doesn't know what to do with Venom when he's Venom. At all. Like that is the worst feeling. He's almost more interesting as Eddie Brock.

[00:28:39] It's obviously Raimi was less resistant to the Harry Goblin stuff than the Venom stuff. But the Goblin stuff was also sort of prioritized by Sony. Like he was like, I want classic villain. But he wanted to finish the, right, the Osborn arc.

[00:28:53] Sony was like, he really needs to like, we need to fill this. I think a lot of the design elements were like, there were sort of. His design is kind of lazy. But it feels very Sony, like hip PlayStation 3 kind of like. Right, that's what he feels like.

[00:29:07] It's not like horrifying, but it does feel, it's funny that. It's funny your daddy is Goblin. It's funny that the Willem Dafoe Goblin is so poppy and strange. And that the James Franco Goblin is just like, I don't know, he's wearing a ski mask.

[00:29:18] The vibe I've always gotten is like, Raimi obviously wanted to complete a Harry arc. But in execution, a lot of how New Goblin manifests was Sony's Ziskin stuff. And then a Rod is all about, there has to be a new suit. There has to be Venom.

[00:29:31] You have to do symbiotes. And Raimi's like, I just want to do another like. I want to do another 60s villain who, you know, wants to steal a big bat of money, but he's also got a heart. That's what Raimi loves.

[00:29:41] Yes, that's the only thing he cares about. You can see that in the movie too, that there's that scene where Sandman is, before he's the Sandman, is talking with his estranged wife. And it's like, you know, it's like quiet domestic scene.

[00:29:54] It's like truly out of the 50s crime movie. Right. Where you're like, I know this guy's going to have to go back to jail, but I'm also going to be like, and he's going to be played by like Gene Turney or whatever.

[00:30:04] But the fact that it's Teresa Russell, like transgressive Nicholas Rogue. Gene Turney, what am I talking about? Glenn Ford, not Gene Turney. Sure. Gene Turney's a woman. Yeah. It is that, look, like, we will talk about Doctor Strange soon. Sure. But Doctor Strange is a movie

[00:30:20] that has to contend with like five different plot lines. This is why everyone was worried. They were like, Jesus, Raimi was overwhelmed by one extra villain on three. How's he going to handle the MCU? Now watching that movie, and we will talk about it,

[00:30:33] there are threads in that movie I care about significantly less than other threads. And when they would cut to them, I'd be like, okay, on with it, on with it, on with it. But that movie does feel more cohesive in the sense that like,

[00:30:43] it is more successful at weaving them on a regular basis that you're not losing track of one. Whereas this movie will focus on like one of the guys and one of those threads and how they mirror Peter Parker for 20 minutes.

[00:30:55] And then when it cuts back to the other guy, you're like, I forgot that he was in this movie. And it's like, he exists, he has three separate arcs in different ways relating to each of the three. Flint Marco. Yes, you have the Raimi camp,

[00:31:09] you have the Sony camp, you have the Marvel camp, and they're all trying to fulfill different things. And as Raimi puts it, I mean, we're gonna just dig into this for a lot of the episode. He has this line I always think about where he said like,

[00:31:22] the first movie, I couldn't believe they hired me. I went in with this pitch, I did not think it was hip or sexy, I was not anyone's first choice, and I couldn't believe they hired me to make the movie

[00:31:32] and that they pretty much let me make the movie I had in my head. And then the second movie comes around and they let me do even more. They gave me even more freedom, I felt like I totally understood what I was doing

[00:31:44] and it went over even better and I couldn't believe it. And the third movie, everyone said, now wait a second, we have some notes. Like the third movie suddenly people said and he's talked about that it was just like they started doing the calculations

[00:31:55] of how much was resting upon this movie. Right, that's the problem. The films had already been selling toys, been selling soundtracks, been selling fucking everything, DVDs out the wazoo. Suddenly they were like, could we make more? Can we come up with an algorithm to make more?

[00:32:10] And the analogy he says that I feel like now describes how most of these movies are made and at the time I was like, that's tragic. Why would anyone put someone in this position? But it's all of these films now. He was like, they essentially,

[00:32:20] I was like on a helicopter, or I was on an airplane and they said here's your release date and they handed me a bunch of fabric and a thread and a needle and pushed me out the plane and said good luck making your own parachute

[00:32:31] before you hit the ground. I think it's the disease of more with these things, right? Where it's like they can't just be happy with making hundreds of millions of dollars in profit. Right, this is the thing that I've always struggled to understand. It would have been one thing

[00:32:46] had Spider-Man 2 been a big flop. But Spider-Man 2... Okay, okay, hey buddy. Spider-Man 2 makes like 10% less than Spider-Man 1 but is beloved. I don't think anyone was complaining of the drop off. I think especially at that time sequels always did better than the first movie by and large.

[00:33:04] And people were like... Yeah, the first one was a phenomenon. Right, you mean worse. Yes, I'm sorry. Sequels usually had a slight drop off. It made pretty much the same amount of money and was beloved and sold a thousand fucking t-shirts and whatever.

[00:33:15] And even still they were just like what more could we be? Yeah. And I think there was also this thing. Maguire goes from getting like whatever it was like two million dollars on the first movie and then for the second movie he blows up.

[00:33:31] He is off filming Seabiscuit. His agents come back and they're like he wants 20 million dollars. And Sony balked and they were like fuck you, we're gonna hire Jake Gyllenhaal. Right. Or he said I want 20. They said we're not giving you 20.

[00:33:44] And he went oh my back, my back hurts. I can't do the movie. They went we're calling your bluff. We'll hire Jake Gyllenhaal. They brought Gyllenhaal in for like a meeting and he came back and they were like we'll do it for 12.5. 17.5. For two or for three?

[00:33:57] For this, no. For this. Really? He made 15 million dollars but 7.5% of the gross. That's the thing. I think the other thing of this movie getting overstuffed means that his total gross his total earnings on this movie were about 60 million dollars. Insane. Just FYI. Insane. Which is great. Insane.

[00:34:16] Yeah, it's a good amount of money. I do think that's part of the manic rush to put as much in this movie as possible. Is there like are we gonna not be able to afford Toby anymore? Yeah. Is there a point where his deal

[00:34:25] is gonna become so insane? It's like what happened with Depp in the Pirates of the Caribbean movies where they were like even just the Depp of it all aside they were like we can't make these movies without this guy and in order to lure him back every time

[00:34:36] we have to offer him 25% of the gross? Like it just becomes unreasonable. Do we wanna reset him? At the very least we wanna resolve this fucking Harry, Mary, Jane Peter stuff while it's still him. Sam Raimi hated that Spider-Man 3 was announced while they were making Spider-Man 2. Yeah.

[00:34:53] And he hated that essentially there was a target on the calendar. It's the parachute thing. Yeah. Right. It's like May 4th, 2007 this thing's gotta come out. Now what is just absurd about that to consider is that Spider-Man 2 comes out like 24 months after Spider-Man 1.

[00:35:08] Like it was a much tighter turnaround and that movie's immaculate but I do think that gave them the wrong idea where they were like we'll figure it out. Yeah. And so he sits And he was like I don't know if we have it yet. They were like

[00:35:20] don't fucking worry about it. He sits down with Ivan and he's like let's break this story so he's very interested in solving the Harry Osborn thing. Very interested in continuing Peter and Mary's romance obviously but they are kind of like So obviously their fundamental thing is

[00:35:38] he's gonna lose his way he'll come back. Like that's what 3 will be, right? He falls astray and he comes on back. He has to learn that villains are not so simple that he is not so heroic that's what the Sandman arc will be. 2 has ended with

[00:35:56] him and Mary Jane finally getting together and Harry finding out the truth about Spider-Man. Two things that I remember in the theater watching 2 felt like they might drag this out for 5 movies. Which they could. I mean you could easily imagine a Spider-Man 3 that actually drops

[00:36:10] the Harry stuff entirely Yes. And just like leaves it for a fourth movie. Absolutely. Harry's in the background Right. He's just sort of like becoming he's gobbling becoming goblin I just remember being astonished that they fully just said here's the status now going into the third one. Yeah.

[00:36:25] Do you guys agree with their whole point like all his quotes are basically like the most important thing for P to learn is the concept of him as an avenger as a hero you know paying bringing criminals to justice paying down the debt of guilt

[00:36:39] about the death of Uncle Ben we felt it would be a great thing for him to be a little less black and white to learn he's not above these people he's not just the hero and they're not just the villains.

[00:36:49] But it's the thing that we were talking about of like what makes Peter Parker Spider-Man it's not the suit it's not the bite it's the fundamental guy here what does he need to learn about himself we're all sinners none of us are right and wrong

[00:37:00] can I say something? Yeah. Yes. I don't think the Sandman shot your uncle dead and he's his killer but you know he had a daughter to feed is a really really profound way of illustrating that I think that's a little silly I agree.

[00:37:15] I think the thing with Uncle Ben is stupid he shot his fucking uncle like this is a bad idea this is a bad like this can be a character with a lot of pathos without introducing this weird he's tied to the original crime

[00:37:27] Sandman is my favorite part of the film and I also think that is the single worst decision in the entire movie to make him Uncle Ben's killer I think it can work Sure. I think it can work because the problem for Peter then becomes

[00:37:43] he has established himself as this hero who helps people and here he's presented with an opportunity for revenge and so the temptation of revenge is the thing that Peter has to overcome and I think it's entirely I think as a shortcut it is a shortcut

[00:38:00] but I think it works to just have him be involved in Uncle Ben's killing because it does become justifiable that's what makes it difficult Sure. It becomes justifiable for Peter to want to sort of like merc this guy I am all in on the revenge aspect of it

[00:38:15] and I think that being the right thing to test this character with at this point in the series my problem comes from it sort of invalidates the importance of the sequence in the first movie when he does the shooter isn't some guy cast in shadow

[00:38:33] who we don't really see there's like 10 minutes of him interacting with this guy letting him get away the eye contact chasing him down having that moment where he fucking darkmans out on him like all that shit that I think the moment you go he wasn't really the guy

[00:38:47] he was an accomplice it was this guy and you wedge another guy in there that doesn't work for me it's like the thing of like if they could have brought Michael Pompajohn back and gone like and then he turns into the Sandman that's one thing

[00:39:00] to add a guy who fundamentally was not in the first movie rings weird for me especially when the thing you're doing is like the guy that Peter had the interaction with did everything up until the point where he essentially passed a gun Thomas Hayden Church

[00:39:14] and then Thomas Hayden Church did the one thing right, right um it's also he's taking this character Sandman from Marvel from Spider-Man's Rose Gallery the classic Ditko Rhodes gallery who has no backstory correct the Sandman's backstory is he's a dude who turns into sand that's it right

[00:39:30] who's like hey Spider-Man eat some sand like that's all he doesn't have any motivation no so you're sort of layering this onto this to make a sort of classic like you know Jermel was saying kind of old sort of Hollywood crime story yes

[00:44:14] like Peter Parker sees himself as a proud person in a very narrow way he's right and they're wrong it's about taking on other points of view he keeps hitting that you know he keeps hitting this like weird sort of like we have to teach Peter Parker

[00:44:26] to expand his moral worldview kind of I do think for a guy who's succeeding this hard in this franchise at this point in time too he sort of likes the challenge of like we don't know if we can pull this off effects wise uh yeah

[00:44:37] this is a very different type of challenge let's see if we can do it I mean it's cool I think they do I mean I don't think I really have any complaints about the visuals of Sandman he's cool right yeah he's fucking cool

[00:44:48] I mean but you get to things like how does he turn into Sandman he's running away from cops and he falls into a pit he's escaped from prison of course I understand he's escaping from prison he runs he falls into a pit the pit happens to be the

[00:45:03] sand experiment it's a super collider or whatever yes right I do watch this movie and go it would've taken five more minutes but this is like the movie doesn't have time right the idea of this movie being two hours and 17 minutes at this point is like

[00:45:18] this is so overstuffed this is so over what are you supposed to do let this movie be three hours who would see a three hour Spider-Man movie do you really need to justify radioactive sand who gives a shit no this is all I'm saying it's fucking Spider-Man

[00:45:29] this is all I'm saying this is like the hurry this movie is in where I feel like they don't have the time to sort of unpack stuff in the way I feel like Spider-Man 2 in particular really gracefully builds shit up does the character not become more tragic

[00:45:40] if the whole thing is he's like I will agree to be a fucking scientific experiment to get out of jail to have my sentence shortened or whatever sure right that it's part of the thing of him wanting to get and see his daughter make money

[00:45:53] he thinks it's gonna kill him or whatever and he'll have money to send to his wife and daughter that's the original backstory there is an original backstory no no no the original backstory you're inventing that okay I wasn't that's a much better solution for this that is

[00:46:06] actually Griff the original backstory I believe literally is he fell into a fucking scientific experiment no but I'm just like if you've set up this whole thing he's doing it for his wife and daughter he's a guy who's riddled with guilt the mistakes he made

[00:46:19] he wishes he could provide for them they don't believe in him yeah no I get you and we're gonna have to accept that there's some fucking technology that turns people into sand just a coincidence of this is where the testing site is they're doing it

[00:46:31] 3 o'clock in the morning he happens to run by and fall into it like an open manhole cover it's as I was just like turn it on did you check one of the cameras to see if it's anywhere just turn it on who cares go get a burger

[00:46:44] let's stir this sand up but in the same movie we're like how does the symbiote attack it fucking yeah a comet hits and latches onto his bicycle like it's just everything's a little too the original plan was to have Vulture appear at the end of this movie right

[00:47:01] to set up Spider-Man 4 right they wanted Ben Kingsley John Malkovich was considered there's a lot of names like that as Thomas Hayden Church puts it correct he's like well not so much derailed but took a different railway which I actually think is a good way of putting it

[00:47:16] where it's like Sam Raimi had his idea and then suddenly like Avi Arad is like pulling a switch and the train is like going express I believe Kingsley was like in negotiation they definitely talked to him about it yeah and for Spider-Man 4 they straight up hire Malkovich

[00:47:31] they did hire Malkovich for a movie that never existed it was a done deal right yeah it's interesting just sort of thinking about the movie and this you know the train was derailed it does feel like Sony basically has spent the last 15 years really trying to make

[00:47:48] a movie with all the Spider-Man villains yes they're obsessed with the Sinister Six they're absolutely obsessed with it and having them coexist on screen which makes no sense because the Sinister Six are not independently a comic book entity it's not like I pick up a Sinister Six comic

[00:48:03] no they fight Spider-Man right but like I don't then like I don't get what a Sinister Six movie is who are the Sinister Six well this is a thing the Sinister Six Dr. Octopus, Sandman who we got Electro Mysterio Rino the Vulture and then maybe you know eventually

[00:48:20] you can swap one in it will take Kravens in there sometimes whatever it's basically all of Spider-Man's villains are sort of like ever so often they're like let's get together and try to really like fuck this guy up like hang yeah but mostly fuck him up

[00:48:35] so there actually there was a there was a lot of comparisons the idea is just let's get six of us around the same time as the Superior Spider-Man reboot there was the was the Superior it was the something enemies of Spider-Man it was a book

[00:48:50] that was all of his like B and C tier enemies yeah who hung out together and kind of just like riped them while getting their asses kicked by the Superior foes of Spider-Man and that was actually really good right that's like Beetle and Shocker and Speed Demon

[00:49:05] like the really lame premise for a movie right that's the direction you would go where you're being funny about right the Drew Goddard Sinister Sticks movie always sounded like it was like the thing he always said was that he was making like Sorcerer

[00:49:18] like it was a bunch of cons who all were stuck on a mission to get it sort of sounded like he was trying to make Suicide Squad yeah sure and that that it was a heisty Suicide Squad and it's amazing that Marvel's never done a Thunderbolts movie

[00:49:33] which would be their Suicide Squad or like Dark Avengers or Thunderbolts or some version of that it never ends anyway okay but I do think just because we watched Batman Forever yesterday David there is that thing that I think Sony is jealous of where they're just like

[00:49:49] there was a point where Warner Brothers was able to put a bunch of these characters on the screen at the same time and it even goes back to just Adam West series how exciting it was if you saw an episode where two of them teamed up

[00:50:00] and in the Spiderman episode I talked about how like they made so much fucking merchandise for Spiderman well kids want to buy Norman Osborn and Oxford shirt for Spiderman 2 they were like no we have two characters we only can make merchandise of two characters it's Spiderman

[00:50:14] it's Doc Ock we don't even bother making anyone else as much as like Batman Forever gets dinged with like that's the toy attic that's the movie where the toy companies come in and start demanding stuff the main producer on this film is Avi Arad whose background

[00:50:28] is a toy company and I think he's going to him and he's like you have two characters per movie you need to give me fucking something to work with here yeah and the idea of being able to like have a line up of you know these characters

[00:50:41] coexisting on screen at the same time visually I think was just like Sony was jealous that they weren't playing that game was Sandman the toy filled with sand? should've been there probably was at some point look Sandman is in Sam Raimi's story Laura Ziskin swings in and says

[00:51:01] Gwen Stacy should be in the movie Sam Raimi's like that makes no sense why would she be in the movie? we skipped Gwen we skipped Gwen right she's actually Peter's high school girlfriend Mary Jane comes later like I don't think Gwen is not a compelling

[00:51:14] character in her own right which she's not she's a terrible character in the comics she's just like oh Peter why won't you pay attention to me yeah she more or less exists just to get killed by the green guy right the reason they kill her off

[00:51:26] like it's funny because of course you know they talk about it they're like we can't believe we did that but she's a terrible character right Mary Jane immediately had more personality by the first frame wow I mean the introduction of Mary Jane in comics is the greatest panel

[00:51:39] in comics history it's so good but yeah so like Gwen is just not like you know there's nothing it's not like we can't wait to have Gwen on screen so she can like there's no answer to that question Gwen doesn't really have a thing

[00:51:53] but I think that must've been the thing of like have we resolved the love story do people like it's the one more day thing of like it's like a problem paradise right but it's also I think it's it's more what you're saying as well where it's just like

[00:52:07] no there needs to be Gwen she's a character from Spider-Man she hasn't been in these movies yet put her in the movie so that they can have Gwen then like Gwen will be available at all times going forward like it's just like get these people in movies

[00:52:21] and Gwen gives us Captain State like get fucking everyone in here now so you read all this stuff about Rami to his credit basically just complaining he says well okay so we decided to take this policeman character who's on the periphery of the scenes and turn him into

[00:52:35] Captain Stacy and make this one character who's in the jazz bar Gwen Stacy okay the worst possible fix is like why don't we just take this nothing character flesh her out a little more yeah put her in five scenes versus one yeah and now Gwen Stacy's in the

[00:52:49] film and it's like well now you just have this like distraction yes who doesn't get to do anything right anyway I like her line when she's intruding Spider-Man she goes like he's everyone's favorite he saved me from 89 stories above like what a weird like credit to like

[00:53:03] intro someone yes yes it almost sounds like a joke but I don't think it's actually a joke and then Avi Arad right of course it's like Sam the fans demand venom they want venom I know you were reading comics in the 60s and 70s this was his whole

[00:53:15] fucking thing you're stuck in the 60s right kids these days love venom Ben Hosley loves I love Ben Hosley is absolutely the best I do not like venom you're anti-venom I'm not anti anti-venom another character like a serum or anything right right but I've never

[00:53:36] liked venom yeah I don't like venom either I just think venom who was a thing when we were all kids right the height of his popularity in the comic which is a drool imagery great like the biggest new comic major adversary for Spider-Man for it I a decade

[00:53:56] if not more it just it's too much of the 90s gotta be extreme yeah it's just it's too it's it's so teeth right the character feels so dated and it's not for nothing that like recent takes on venom have basically been an attempt to sort of like

[00:54:15] walk that back right yeah venom now is sort of like he's kind of an anti-hero right he's sort of like you know he's not slobbering all the time he's not like a little bit he's just he's just I don't know I think Tom Hardy movies do

[00:54:32] try to encapsulate the chaotic energy of venom yes he goes to the club yeah but that's what I like is that they're not trying to make him badass right exactly he's weird and silly yeah I mean to venom created by Todd McFarlane this is what I was

[00:54:48] gonna say or whoever it's not like it's a great American fiction but the fact that they're trying to run for spawn and spawn for what it is is just it works more successfully when you're just letting Todd fucking go off and give you his whole fucking worldview

[00:55:08] and I feel like venom just feels like Todd McFarlane trying to impose his shit onto a spider-man universe that isn't really a match for it the counter would be and I was not a It's all these dicko guys. It's not like Spider-Man has bad villains, right?

[00:55:25] It doesn't have like a mirror image villain, right? Like he doesn't have a like who's the anti spider-man or whatever and so that's the idea, right? Right and the idea of the suit is so good

[00:55:34] And I love that plotline in spider-man like him getting the alien suit right and eventually realizing like this thing's kind of malevolent You know the whole secret wars thing, right? We can't get into that. We're not doing that. It's too much Can I give one sentence to Ben?

[00:55:48] They made a deal with Mattel the toy company and they were like he wants to talk about it to be clear It's a toy. I had a bunch of those toys. Yeah, yes, they were like superhero toys don't sell We need to like build a comic series around

[00:56:01] Like setting up a toy line And so Mattel gave them like a focus group list of things that kids like and they were like the two most popular words Are secret and war Kids are vicious man, right and they were like new costume Aliens

[00:56:18] Right, so they were like you have to do a series called secret war in which these 20 characters go to a planet spider-man shouldn't Team up with an alien. He should become an alien and they were just like, okay fine

[00:56:27] They essentially had this huge comic book run written by the Simpsons joke that they're the focus It's like a focus group. It's like a big group of kids It's the focus group of you know, whether trying to get Poochie down, right?

[00:56:40] You wouldn't be down to earth and realistic right but totally out of control But there is that thing where like The entire alien symbiote. So it's a one a realistic down-to-earth show. It's completely off the wall and swarming with magic I Don't know what to say

[00:57:01] Off the wall and swarming with magic The miracle is that the symbiote stuff is well written It's kind of a cool idea and the design is good and all of that. They execute it. Well, but don't get rid of the suit

[00:57:21] They're like sort of like what should we do with this alien thing? Right and it's also it's like You know It makes sense to turn it in, you know, he attaches to Eddie Brock Eddie Brock's right Peter Parker, you know

[00:57:34] It doesn't like whatever went to the wrong guy, right? and Then as you say the top because when you initially see venom He doesn't have the big pointy teeth or anything like that the Todd McFarlane thing

[00:57:44] Yeah, just kind of takes it over where it's like make him bigger make him slobbery or make him have the weird tongue, right? I think it had to happen This is something comics had to get out of their system in the late 80s

[00:57:55] And then it spins off into image like it is sort of right. It's Remains as this sort of like but that guy is he made it into the rogues gallery, right? Like he is one of those few 80s spider-man villains, but I just let's keep him around

[00:58:09] I never found Eddie Brock very compelling He's so big which is why I'm just like when other people were like Why are they turning Eddie Brock into just like Weasley or Peter Parker? And I there was nothing sacrilegious about that to me

[00:58:23] I was like that sounds like a more interesting take on the character to just make it Peter Parker without more Well, let me making him a bully. Let me read you a quote

[00:58:30] In fact to for grace, yeah who plays any Brock in the film says he's more of a doppelganger to Peter Yeah, he's someone very similar has the same powers, but had a bad upbringing These parallels is what I like about the character

[00:58:43] He doesn't have an uncle Ben I would say to Sam on the set with great power comes great fun Toe for grace seems to be the biggest fan of this movie of the people involved with it Yeah, but the most fun making it Yeah

[00:58:55] And it's kind of like I know people don't like it But like I really like what we were going for at least it also grinds his career to a halt more than anyone else

[00:59:03] It's devastating to his career because this is the moment where everyone's like is he Tom Hanks? Because he had just given my run company right in company was everyone Had Hamilton

[00:59:13] PS he had to run a PS but they were like we're like is he's gonna take me home tonight, right? He is so that is he wrote that movie or at least which is a movie. I like the story. Okay? Yeah, he

[00:59:25] It's when I think they've shot this movie before it comes out correct He goes to revolution and he's everyone's like toe for grace. You're about to be the next big star What do you want to do? And he's like I want to do my American graffiti

[00:59:35] There hasn't been an 80s generational coming-of-age movie. We're finally enough distance I want to do this they shoot it sits on shelf for like three years, right that famously took forever It was supposed to be like I think the immediate

[00:59:46] Passion from the success of spider-man and when that didn't work and all of Dan Fogler's comedies didn't work and whatever It's that thing where like it comes out in our Ferris and Chris Pratt have been married for three years

[00:59:56] And that's the movie where they meet. Yeah, but but yes, that's like his follow-up to this and this movie ruined It's it's on shelf forever. Yeah, because his father after this he's in Valentine's Day in 2010 Yeah, he's in predators

[01:00:10] Which is him being like I'm playing against type. I play a serial killer. He's gonna take me home tonight, which is released very late But that's it's really that's it. So predators is the one where they're on the planet. Yes

[01:00:24] Ten different types of deadly human right and everyone's like what's this guy doing here? And it's like oh he's like he's this He's this kind of bad thing, right? Yeah I mean when he wasn't when Topher popped up in Interstellar, it was truly alike

[01:00:38] For great like it was really like I haven't seen him in years Like just like quietly has a hit ABC show now home economics season 2 I believe it's been picked up for season 3 you made this up. I did not Economics I'm reading it but you just put your

[01:00:54] PD article what's his name Jimmy Tatro? I'm seeing what you wrote down on Wikipedia Picked up for season 3 it certainly has a season two seasons I'm not sure about season three yet, but I'm hoping against hope that you'll probably get another bite at the Apple then. Yeah, I

[01:01:13] Mean he seems like kind of an attorney. How old do you think he is? I think he's like 40 something He has to be like 45 right? It's 43 to me. That's younger than I thought, huh? Just because that 70s showed to me. I'm like, yeah, I was like a teenager

[01:01:26] Also like yeah, Kirsten Dunst just turned 40 this week right there she was really young in the first fight, right? She's one of those people where you're like for how long she's been famous It's impossible that she was still in her 30s until seven days ago

[01:01:38] What do you guys think of Topher Grace's performance in this film? We're talking venom. Yeah, it is Well, so here's what I'll say. I remember defending this performance when it came out. Yeah, I felt like he Largely does what is asked of him?

[01:01:51] Well, I think the only scene that doesn't work is the church scene which I don't even put on him Definitely doesn't it definitely doesn't work and I think his performance is kind of embarrassing there But I think that's a failing of what they're asking to do

[01:02:02] It's an I think that is an impossible scene to play you mean where they basically just have to rush the venom origin Yeah, so quickly right and it's just like it does not make sense in any way

[01:02:15] Patricia Kallamber who played my mother on the tick who was also in sign. She plays Mel Gibson's crushed wife. Yep great actor There was a scene I had with her that was like a big emotional scene and I was really struggling and it was that thing

[01:02:28] Of like I was like pushing the thing that I feel like in a lot of the like tearful Emotional scenes in this movie you feel in the performances where it's just like they're sort of trying to make sad faces

[01:02:39] Yeah, and crying voices, but it doesn't really feel like they're actually upset and she said this thing I always think about what she said I find like if I'm in a scene like this and I'm pushing for the emotion and I can feel myself struggling

[01:02:51] It's because I'm not getting specific enough You have to think of like what the specific thing is rather than just the general idea of being sad and I think this movie has a lot of scenes where the direction is be sad and

[01:03:03] It's like the more upset the movie has not spent the time building up The emotions to that point where it's like there's one scene where he gets vaguely embarrassed and the next scene

[01:03:13] We're supposed to believe he's like having an emotional breakdown crying on his knees saying God, please kill Peter It's very funny to go to church to be like I know I don't come here often enough

[01:03:27] Lord my lord and savior Jesus Christ all I asked for one thing. Oh, yeah Eternal goodness is to kill that motherfucker. It's so funny cuz right usually it'd be like look I know I'm not a church-going guy. I know I haven't talked to you in a long time

[01:03:41] But my wife is sick, but it's like this guy Really grind about you embarrass me like two hours Because I he totally fucked me over by revealing that I did something bad my point is I think he deserves to die

[01:03:54] Don't you I think he's really bad in that scene, but I also think there is no way to make that seem specific But okay, but that doesn't make any So in defense the performance. Yeah, I think everything before that is good. I agree

[01:04:07] I need a slick little yeah, I like his venom like I like his shit. Okay. All right That was my question like so I do I do Mask is up and he's got the sort of like the tendrils and the weird teeth

[01:04:19] I just wish the mass stayed down more but I still like his performance Did you take the masks off a lot and I wonder if they're just kind of like well These are the stars we need to see their face when you rewatch the first one

[01:04:29] Yeah, he they both take off their masks so infrequently and there is that problem where he like every me has talked about There's nothing relate to if you both of them have masks on and I would have to force them to just stick you late more

[01:04:41] And it felt silly. So the second one it's like Doc Oc's face visible the entire time and comes off a lot more This is the one where it's like he won't stop taking his mask off venom's face retracts goblins master tracks Salmon's thing whatever I even like

[01:04:59] Topher's vocal performance when he's venom. I like venom just being some little shit Like I don't need him to be tough or scary. I like him being a pain in the ass You like how his eyebrows kind of like cocked eternally

[01:05:13] Genuine prosthetic makeup was just like his face was being grabbed all day I just think they play that too much considering. He's only on screen for eight minutes and for seven of those it looks like this. Yeah

[01:05:25] That's what he looks like. Keep the face down. You know, it's not helping him at all is those frosty frosty tips Well, that's true. It's very very right of the moment His blonde hair If we can go back to the church scene by people on here

[01:05:39] Sure, like much like saying like why isn't Flint Marco donating his body to science to get money for his wife and daughter, right? That scene even makes more sense of if the energy of it is him walking in being like I want Peter Parker dead

[01:05:52] Not the I am crushed. I am humbled. Yeah, why is it on my knees? Like that's why that scene is impossible to play and it's also based on once again

[01:06:01] The coincidence of Peter Parker decides at that very moment. He has to take the suit off in the spire of a church I just think that Once we'd seen Tom Hardy Have this take where he's like the guy's kind of burly, but he's also just inherently bizarre

[01:06:17] Yeah before venom touches him, right? He's just one of those guys were like you want to sit him down and be like By Tom Hardy's Eddie Brock at a party And then once venom joins him because he's a brutally tough journalist

[01:06:34] That's the hard questions for the Eddie Brock show. Yeah, I got question for you. Why are you corrupt? Everyone's like integrity Seem like a bad guy What's up, because like the premise of that movie is why you so bad?

[01:06:56] Jones places bossy like Eddie just do me a favor. Go interview Lord evil, you know at Evil Corp Everyone takes your chemicals seems to die You ever think about being good what's the matter with you? I got a question

[01:07:35] Once once the suit merges with him right the best gag in venom is The suit saying like you're kind of a loser me too I was also kind of we kind of suck Whereas this is more like Hofer grace wants God to kill spider-man and instead

[01:07:58] Goop lands on him and he's like, I'm gonna be venom and then he tries to kill spider-man I think when anything else no, I think when venom takes over what happens he could have some fun, right?

[01:08:08] Like, you know if you're going by Topher, why don't we see venom do a thing? Here's to be sort of like a robber Venom as a character, okay venom specifically church, please Screams at screen right

[01:08:26] Symbiote takes over him screams at screen next scene is he's crawling on a wall Flint Marco in an alleyway Hey, you're a bad guy, right? I'm a bad guy, too Let's kill spider-man together the scene that you were like saying

[01:08:37] Happens in every one of those classic Batman movies where they have to at some point go You're very two-faced and I'm a Riddler. So I'm sensing a lot of mixing here, right? Yeah that scene happens one hour and

[01:08:50] 45 minutes into the movie and the next time you see venom Mary Jane is in a car in a web at the top of Scaffolding and he's just jumping around

[01:08:58] That's the entire arc of venom and then there's just that final fight sequence his face stays down for a total of three minutes maximum Yeah, web is cool. It's black web. I I Like the way venom makes like a real spider. Yes, you like that

[01:09:13] It's not it's basically just spider-man with some teeth Look you can see their alternate designs not even just like designs but like makeup costume tests They did where they pushed even further the idea of it like

[01:09:25] Looking like an evil spider-man suit making the webs more jagged like they're cooler alternate versions of it There's one where they did his face totally prosthetic that is terrifying the actual venom alien face like done in prosthetics It's fucking creepy as shit

[01:09:40] But I yeah, I I like this. I prefer making venom a true mirror as we said like that's sort of what he started out as and then he got heightened to this Like spawn dry run thing and I like bringing him back down to there

[01:09:52] I just I think it's so rushed at the end and I Think Topher Grace could have worked in this I think he is fun in parts and I I just think

[01:10:05] Everyone wanted venom so fucking badly. They were like largely hiding him for the marketing. You were only getting glimpses It's truly was a thing where people were like I can't wait to see fucking venom in his full glory

[01:10:15] And then when every five seconds his face peels up and it's over grace being like hey, how do you like them apples? I think people were just irate How did you feel Jamal? Do you remember how you seeing this film at the time?

[01:10:27] I did I saw this opening weekend. I was at UVA So it was in Charlottesville and with my buddy a buddy of mine and we went to go see it

[01:10:35] And he I remember coming out of it. He was like that sucked. I think I kind of liked it This has been my view. You've always had But I at the time I just I don't I think it's very clear watching the film the venom stuff

[01:10:49] It just sort of extraneous and that like it is like the one part of the thing that is really kind of like this doesn't This doesn't really fit the vibe or the tone or really anything of what the movie is trying to do

[01:11:00] Having said that I think we can you said this earlier David The the venom stuff also is occasion for some of the moments in the movie that I really like best parts of the movie We haven't talked about it, but sort of a dance sequence Yes

[01:11:13] the whole that the James Brown sort of like You know walk montage thing the dance sequence in the jazz club are great and I was watching it last night My wife who is a normal person

[01:11:23] I'm like watch not the wife at the no, but also doesn't like go on Twitter and have arguments about spider-man Never seen this before and I was like, you know people people mock hated

[01:11:34] This was like the height of derision, right? But when you watch it, you're like, no, this is great It's so not only that same Remy isn't complete control. Yeah, you're like this thing is Completely hitting the bullseye of exactly the tone right it is trying to do

[01:11:48] I remember Dave Poland notorious movie blogger It's so good or Yes the entire time there are two women who are always sort of like kind of in the frame

[01:12:01] They're always sort of like looking back at him like who what the hell is happening with this guy? I love it It's just I remember also feeling my entire audience go like yeah

[01:12:09] I don't fuck and then you think that this is a year before Iron Man in the dark night. I know it Their universe is a part that's kind of it's I mean it is The movie but less it is crazy to think that the next year

[01:12:23] It's like the end of an era for this. Yeah, these are very earnest. Yeah, we've got these inspired Yeah, we've gotten past the 90s sort of embarrassed that these are genre superhero movies, right? These things are powerhouses, right? Yeah, sort of like now it's earnest

[01:12:40] It's sort of like trying to be really faithful and we're just about to get over to this new Phase of them being kind of like yes, totally culturally These are the two ways you can do this movie now

[01:12:50] You can do Iron Man or you can do Dark Knight Those are the only two options and like the dance sequence becomes sort of like a tabula rasa of like we have to make sure

[01:12:57] This never happens again. Yeah, it becomes like Batman and Robin level. Oh god, that was embarrassing Embarrassing Agree we're in the middle of It is like the strongest take same Ramey has in this movie from a story perspective is this idea of like

[01:13:17] Peter Parker is inherently a dork. What defines him is that he is a dork with good morals There is no evil version of Peter Parker. There's a selfish Dork There's sort of like a quasi in cell version of right Parker, right? Yeah

[01:13:32] and I think people were like because even the marketing came in for this movie even aside from that poster there was the poster that Was him with the bags under the eyes and the hair and the idea of like oh fuck Peter Parker's gonna go bad

[01:13:42] And I think everyone assumed he was going to be badass and tough They had successfully hidden all of the comedy in the trailers. So when that happens people are like why is this movie not? Giving me him being a vigilante

[01:13:56] Venom being an asshole and a bully but those sequences are so fun Dave Poland Tori's movie blogger in the cool blogger. I remember at the temple blog At the time when that's movie came out said like Jesus Christ of Sam Raimi clearly want to make a musical

[01:14:12] It is insane that he has shoehorned three full musical numbers into this film and you watch and it is Incredible because there's the the early Broadway show number

[01:14:22] Which I think is actually kind of great agree and like kind of calms the movie down after the opening or whatever And then there's the jazz sequence and then it ends with this sad

[01:14:32] Musical number at the club. It does and you even have the twist sequence with Harry and Mary is almost a Musical number in and of itself and I want to say all of that to me

[01:14:42] Really works and I wish the whole movie could be on that level now I do think that would have been poorly received. Absolutely, right by audiences at the time But I at least like I want that tonal consistency throughout like I wanted to feel like that

[01:14:56] It's the character stuff that works. Yeah, right That's that's um You guys have already spoken about spider-man 2 but that's in spider-man 2 is great because not there's not a frame of that movie is

[01:15:06] Disconnected from the characters from Peter Mary Jane and Harry the entire movie that movie is slow And again, we did talk about this book that movie takes its time in the first hour

[01:15:17] Patiently paced and then like the last hour is really lots is happening and the action is so incredible Like yeah, it's like, you know, it's careful. It has a whole scene of just like Dock his wife and Peter having lunch It's maybe the best scene in the movie

[01:15:32] Yeah So I mean it's bitch and beyond inside the best thing in the movie because that movie has such amazing scenes But it's so crucial to the end of the movie, right? Right, right, which which this movie tried this is God's another reason

[01:15:43] I don't always defend this movie is that even though it can't get the execution, right? Because it has too many things on its mind. This movie still attempts to have those scenes. Yes, they're clumsier, right?

[01:15:54] They don't they usually have more rush. Right? They feel rushed. They feel sort of like they're written with sort of like clear Obvious signposts of emotional beats that are telegraphed to directly rather than earned But I still just watching this now 15 years later

[01:16:10] When so many of these movies are so caught up in every scene is lore building mythos building teeing up other shit Peter going to his a man talking about wanting to marry Mary Jane and Rosemary Harris giving a pretty good monologue

[01:16:22] Yeah, that's what it takes to be a good husband the Teresa Russell scene where she's just like you fuck everything up in your life Yeah, that's that again. I wish I was none of them but like what you work as well as one and two

[01:16:31] But they're there. Yeah, but the thing and the thing is now with these MC movies, which I enjoy and watch But it's like with those movies you can look at your watch and been like it's been 15 minutes

[01:16:41] We're about to have a set piece right like those movies just kind of have that where's her no way We're just exactly where it's just like done. Don't worry. Don't worry Yeah, yeah We had to have two scenes where everyone sat down and explained what's going on

[01:16:51] But then like don't worry Schumer Gareth is gonna you know show up like something's gonna happen, right? Ramy isn't quite I feel like as slavish to that like or whatever. No, I mean, here's an interesting thing I clocked watching this film You know

[01:17:05] We talked about David Koepp when he was pitching spider-man his two things were he can't end up with the girl at the end And I want to take a long time until we introduce spider-man. We really have to earn it

[01:17:13] We have to like treat this like Don or Superman where we build to that, right? So the opening credit sequence in the first spider-man Which is so good is Ramy sort of trying to appease the audience by being like we're gonna give you the hero theme right off

[01:17:24] The top we're gonna give you CGI imagery of spider-man So you remember while you're here and then buckle in because it's gonna be 45 minutes until he puts the suit on Spider-man 2 he puts the suit on like minute 3 to deliver pizzas He's spider-man this movie starts with Peter Parker

[01:17:37] And and also the open credit sequence was another moment of slight deflation where you're like opening credits in first one Cool opening credits in second one replaying Griswold Alex Ross Alex Ross Elfman's quit. Yeah, you're using like Getty Images. Yeah

[01:17:55] It's kind of samey right kind of it. Yeah, and then you have this weird like I'm spider-man. Everything's grown great He does not put on the suit until 35 minutes into the movie, which is kind of crazy

[01:18:05] Considering the movie starts out with I'm spider-man. Everyone loves me. Everything's going great Is that because the first fight with Harry? Yeah now wearing the suit? Yeah So when it gets to the first fight sequence 20 minutes He's like come on here and he's like

[01:18:23] Yeah, he puts on the suit like 35 minutes in the scene where he's talking to Mary Jane and he's like sorry gotta go And then really the first like I hate being married to spider-man the first sequence where he's really spider-man is the the

[01:18:36] Press conference or whatever the key to the city. Yeah It takes so long for him to be spider-man considering the movie is like I've nailed it I figured out how to be spider-man. We don't get to see any of him just doing it well

[01:18:49] Before things start going kind of poorly for him. So Topher Grace staunch defender of the film I know the movie did well for Sony. I know people weren't happy about it. I think Sam is so talented

[01:19:00] I remember one time I was on ninth unit ninth unit. It's like he's running a small country I'd love to see anyone slamming one of these movies try to fit into Sam Raimi's position

[01:19:11] He was like the president of a country and the movie had the gross national income of a small country I have huge respect for him. I think he did a fantastic job on that trilogy

[01:19:18] So he just you know who else loved being in this movie though? Who Bryce Dallas Howard really? Yeah, cuz she was basically just like one. Why are you casting me?

[01:19:28] Bond no, and I'm not like I don't feel like I fit the profile of the cast of blonde play redhead a redhead to play A blonde she's one of the few redheads of prominence in Hollywood. That's a Laura Ziskin joke

[01:19:38] My joke is I cast a blonde as a redhead and redhead as a blonde Well five comedy points to Laura's asking RIP But Howard basically and I guess this vibes with her now where she basically is clearly more interested in making movies than being in them

[01:19:50] She the way she talks about it. She's just like it was so cool to be on those giant sets Like and see the whole collaborative process of making a movie like that

[01:19:59] It has always felt like her involvement in the Jurassic World trilogy is more about her trying to learn everything she can Yeah to get ready to do the the big dance Which look her Mandalorian episodes have been great. You know, she's definitely gonna get some big movie

[01:20:12] She clearly wants to make one so she's gonna I think that job is coming for her like other elements where you're just like when Dylan Baker is cast as As Kurt Connors and to you're like fucking great great

[01:20:25] Incredible entire time watching the reason why if I was like doing the whole like that's chappy with her So like, you know Dylan Baker shows up. I'm like, that's that's the lizard. Yeah, who the hell's the lizard? Yeah Well, he's Kurt Connors It's such good casting

[01:20:41] And I love the idea of just keeping him there simmering for a little while having him be like an ally and mentor that can Exist for a little bit, but you're so annoyed that they don't let him do it in this movie

[01:20:51] You're so annoyed when you read that it was not part of any plan for for what were you gonna say about I was gonna Say how much I love Dylan Baker in that role and sort of

[01:20:59] It's really again. You can imagine a future movie or whatever but like This the thing Okay So the thing I like about the Raymond movies is really about how all the villains have some personal relationship to Peter They're not just think they're not just like

[01:21:14] Entities that come out of the sky. They're not just sort of like, you know, you know malevolent forces they're specific people who have specific relationships that Peter and part of the

[01:21:23] Challenge of them for Peter is sort of like I actually care about this person and all of them are like tragic monsters It's that thing that no way home to its credit kind of identifies which is like Oh all these guys have like a tragic accident, right?

[01:21:37] And so is there still a humanity in there we can solve it and so with with Kurt Connors Don't it's sort of it would have been great to have a film where you have that dynamic play again

[01:21:47] Here is a mentor someone who cares about Peter and Peter cares about him and he has to deal with this horrible thing It's happened to him and especially when like spider-man 2 does incredibly well

[01:21:56] But spider-man 2 has to introduce him right and have him turn and redeem himself in one movie the idea of letting Baker just hang out there. Yeah, and then the indignity of the second they hit the reset button

[01:22:08] They're like, by the way, we're finally doing lizard. Here's my question and I like the casting of Dylan Baker and I love Dylan Baker Yeah Do you feel like there's a 5050 shot? They would have made spider-man form been like he's still in it. Don't we done?

[01:22:21] What do lizard or were they definitely gonna know everything Rami has talked about was spider-man 4 did not include lizard exactly Yeah, it was where they're like and now our new villains the vulture

[01:22:32] It was vulture and black cat black cat or a show Harvey exactly was gonna have some sort of right But it was it was going to be Anne Hathaway playing a Felicia Hardy type, right?

[01:22:42] Vulture and then Bruce Campbell at certain stages was gonna play Mysterio in a sort of jokey cameo version It would have been the opening of the movie is

[01:22:51] Never ever heard anything about fucking lizard in that movie and even he was like we toyed around with Craven lizard never Kray was something he wants any idea

[01:23:00] So funny because they would have just kept him there for five you think about it and it's like at the time The beef that the studio had with Rami was like stop doing these fucking boring

[01:23:12] Vulture an old guy right? That's what you and then of course by the time it comes around to the MCU They're like we're gonna do vulture, right? Michael Keaton will be playing the vulture like they're doing all that stuff

[01:23:23] Yeah, it's sort of it's because these movies are in this kind of weird in-between zone Yeah where it's like studios don't seem as if they trust that audiences are really gonna go for

[01:23:34] They the lame 60 stuff but by the time we get to the 2010s, it's very apparent that like yeah You can you can throw like a fucking raccoon on screen and people and people lose their minds, right?

[01:23:44] You know what's most confounding about it to me that attitude is that? Yes, obviously venom has popped so hard in the 90s. He is the freshest villain, right? There's a generational excitement about him Yeah, he's got a bad attitude

[01:23:59] But as Ben is illustrating very well, all these 60 villains were still on the cartoon show that was incredibly popular. Yeah Yeah, they're in the comics there in all the video games in the video games, right?

[01:24:09] I'm gonna present like if you're a kid watching at this point, maybe venom is like the the hot new right? Dude, but like you're familiar familiar with the Rhino which Scorpion with all those guys Yeah I think the reason that

[01:24:21] Vulture really got on their nerves was that he's an old Ramy was like I'm so I'm looking at a bunch of guys in 60s and they were like I swear to God We told you millennial villains. I believe I mean perhaps this is apocryphal

[01:24:35] but I believe I've heard an interview where he did confirm this that like at one point same Ramy took a meeting with Larry David and Sony was like Fucking stop Best picture The meeting with Larry David Larry Dave was like why would anyone Be

[01:24:53] theaters, yeah, Larry David vulture perfect, but If it's an old guy it has to be an old guy who has been nominated for an Oscar I don't I don't know. I don't think I'm only finding like Which I love it

[01:25:09] He was like, hey, it would be great obviously Which this they did not do with Keaton with the idea of the vulture usually is that he's an old guy who like is trying

[01:25:17] To suck out your energy to get young again, right which but they never did that with Keaton and said he was just a guy He salvages parts. Yeah, he was like, you know, he was an outer borough Trump voter

[01:25:27] He was like a Trump guy where he was like, look, I'm just a blue-collar guy and it's like aren't you like a millionaire? One thing I wanted to ask you guys about while we're talking about the M's the contemporary MCU

[01:25:42] When Peters emo right and just emo mode bully McGuire's the kids like to call him the zoomers call him Bully McGuire Lee McGuire. Yeah huge in gifts, right? Interesting. Okay, his hair changes. It gets all floppy bully McGuire

[01:25:56] Yeah, it gets floppy. It definitely looks like he listens to dashboard, right? Exactly Right and he dances like this For the lizard home Davis is doing the dance Yes, there's this moment where he is on the phone and he's talking to the landlord's daughter

[01:26:13] And it's kind of like is playing for comedy as that, you know type of character You know, I mean that he's a transformation Badass asshole Peter Parker can be is asking her for more milk or milk and cookies

[01:26:25] Right like in the cookies and but he's acting like an asshole. Yes, right and it's like that's what they're telegraphing And I'm like, this is what the MCU comedy is now They all act like this, I think that's right

[01:26:47] Part of the magic of getting someone like you to enjoy a movie like that is that they can look at the camera Come on Iron Man get whatever like, you know, yeah Avengers, I guess I'm an Avenger like whatever

[01:27:00] It just felt interesting to be like the movies telling me that he's acting like an asshole But when I see this play anywhere else now, it's like well, this is the good guy hero that we all love It's funny. It's even

[01:27:12] Like in the MCU, it's not even like different kinds of assholes the same It's the same cut like this is my big complaint. I really like I like that first. Dr. Strange movie quite a bit, but what I do not like is how Stephen Strange is just

[01:27:28] Robert Downey Jr's Tony Stark. It's the single biggest problem with that movie. Yeah, and I will say I think Rami kind of correct Right we were talking about this after strange to like I do feel like he's settled quite well into the role for that

[01:27:39] And I do think Rami is a part of that. It's like I thought he was better way less of the like I need to be right. Yeah, cuz I thought he was better in Infinity War and then worse again in No Way Home

[01:27:49] They can't decide how much they want him to be snarky quipster And it felt like Rami settles him into like you are a loof weirdo. Yeah, you can be funny and you can be arrogant But you're not like snarky right like Stephen Strange is arrogant and unpleasant, right?

[01:28:04] But he's not yeah, he's not like he's not a good hang. No, yeah, but I yeah Yeah, no one would willingly spend time with him. Why would you hang out with this guy?

[01:28:12] I have complaints about the movie, but I think like yes, I think he's actually really good in multiple ways Right and it is funny that in when this movie is playing in theaters

[01:28:21] Ben people are like what the fuck am I watching the evil version of this character asks for more cookies? And you're watching Status quo of all characters poor Ursula just wants just wants to hang out with Peter. She just likes him

[01:28:35] I love Ursula too. I know I mean, it's nice that she comes back. But right she really doesn't get enough to do Can I say something? I'm not sure I'm not sure I'm not sure I'm not sure Back, but right she really doesn't get enough to do

[01:28:47] Can I at least she has a little moment? Well, I talk editor's cut for a few moments You know, of course you can in a second But wait, I want to first give you talking about the dancing since we're on it

[01:28:54] Esther zuckerman friend of the show the great esther recently published. Have you read this yet? The I just Advanced sequences in spider-man 3. Yeah, uh where she talks to marguerite derricks who choreographed the dance

[01:29:08] But of course her main job was choreographing the big jazz scene, right? Like that's the major dance number Did she choreograph the broadway number? I think I guess she just walked downstairs, right? But her main that exactly she's brought on board to do choreography

[01:29:19] But obviously the centerpiece is the whole jazz sequence with their you know, uh where they're the club which once again Just a thing you cannot imagine if the director of your third superhero movie comes in

[01:29:29] He's like by the way, we really need to bring choreographer in for this. I have a huge dance number planned But hey, man, you've done two hits. Yeah, um, the original idea she says was that toby

[01:29:40] Was gonna be like a b-boy spinning on his head and doing break dancing great choice would have watched it Like evil toby, which is Incredible to consider. Yes, and then she said that mcguire was really resistant and then she started giving him

[01:29:54] She went to his house to train him started giving him like fred astaire moves Yeah, and he loved them and lit up and was like I want to do this. This is fun So it it feels like because like you're saying like people are watching this

[01:30:06] Like, you know, no one behaves this way anymore, but it's like mcguire actually liked yes that kind of movement like that You know, can I say it makes sense for the characters? He was raised by old. It does right like

[01:30:17] He is a kid who would have been watching a bunch of fred astaire movies And just had that in the back of his head. There are so many valid complaints of this movie

[01:30:25] But it was always the thing that pissed me off the most was it felt like so much of the Public's response at the time of its release and you could feel it in the theater Was the sense of like what the fuck is toby mcguire doing?

[01:30:36] Does he think this looks cool? Right and that it felt like no one was giving toby mcguire credit for being funny That they assumed he was failing to be cool Um, which it's like right. He's he's a guy who stuck perpetually in this weird 60s version of america

[01:30:53] Raised by old people with very simple values Like of course, he's a guy who's a guy who's a guy who's a guy who's a guy who's a guy Like of course, he doesn't know how to fucking be sexy

[01:31:05] There's there's a tiny moment when he goes into the club with gwen stacy, right? Which is just like such an unappealing asshole thing to do his whole attitude of it her going like you're Isn't that your ex-girlfriend? Don't you not want to be here?

[01:31:17] He's like no, no, that's fine I got this figured out But there's the moment where he goes over to like the hostess and he slips her some money and she gives him this look Of sort of like yes. Yeah, right It's like even in just that one shot

[01:31:28] Rami lets it be undercut for a second where it's like this isn't working on any right? It's not like people like oh my god, so cool Is going out with him because she liked him in class, right? She doesn't like this. She doesn't no one likes this

[01:31:42] It's not successful Like i'm sure there are people who like it and I salute you any listener who saw toby mcguire looking like that in the movie

[01:31:50] And was like this is a sexual awakening for me. I doffed my cap to you. I'm sure someone's out there like that I appreciate that in esther's piece. She uh, I guess the

[01:31:59] Makeup artist says that people say that they were it was like a my chemical romance look but my chemical romance Wasn't actually on the scene yet, right and I was trying to think of who the toby mcguire looked like in that in that Uh emo, tony emo

[01:32:12] Toby, he looks like julian casablanca from the strokes. Very good call. Oh, yeah, absolutely. That's sort of right You know, especially the language. Yeah Really the bags under the eyes She also says like there's not eye shadow like people think he's wearing eyeliner or whatever

[01:32:30] He's not I just made his eyes look really sunken. Like I tried to make him anyway Yeah, talk about the editor's coach. I've never watched is it on the disc? It is I think it's it's disc four. It's on the bonus. I have one of those

[01:32:42] We all have the 4k box at the exact book, right? I don't have the book. I have like they released a 4k box of 4k Just like it's the three disc with no special features. Oh, okay

[01:32:51] I think that's very upset about it. Hey, um, but I have all the digital copies anyway And all the special features are in the digital one. So bob morosky who's one of ramie's regular collaborators

[01:33:02] Through to doctor strange. I I don't remember which ones he didn't work on but has worked on a number of the ramie movies. Yeah This movie comes out ramie's sort of very quickly like it got away from me

[01:33:12] I'm apologetic when he's talking about wanting to make four. He's I know I fucked it up. I have to prove myself There were always things that were like in the trailers that weren't in the movie things that actors would talk about having shot

[01:33:23] stills that came out and they'd be like You know as often as the case like the fucking images that exist of like the quote-unquote shoe mocker cut of batman forever Fans want to believe there is a cut of a movie that fundamentally solves it and fixes everything

[01:33:36] They just write and there are things like that daredevil cut right like which is one of those classic things where i'm like Yes, this is better. It makes it five percent better

[01:33:43] But like it is now everything I don't like about this movie like the actors are still in it or whatever, right? It's like some of this is unfixable. Yeah, so I think especially people who thought that this movie was too goofy assumed there was some cut

[01:33:55] That could salvage it right, right? um Like 10 years later 2017 I guess it's when Homecomings coming out. Sure. That sounds right They re-released these movies on 4k for the first time and there had been this rumor of like is sony doing an extended cut

[01:34:12] Of spider-man 3 there's the 2.1 cut which is not good, which actually makes the movie work, which is horrible Yes, I do not watch it ever. So what's what's different about the 2.1 cut? It's so bad Who's that stupid scene with jameson wearing the um the suit? Yes

[01:34:29] And like yeah, it's frozen deleted scenes fucks up the timing It stretches out the house sparks in the elevator thing for an additional two minutes Like it just it it adds in a couple weird things but also ruins the perfect

[01:34:42] Diamond cut timing of a couple things from the original movie, right? It absolutely is just Emblematic of the pox of every movie needs to have an unrated out of control cut and there was no unrated cut

[01:34:54] So they were like it's just longer now and the the j. Joan jameson scene is a scene that Sam like ramey himself admitted we thought was funny on paper. And then when I watched it, I was like this isn't funny

[01:35:03] Right, right. But anyway, the spider-man the editors cut of spider-man three, right? There's no director's cut There's no extended cut and I think ramey was just like i'm so haunted by this not interesting I don't want to touch it at some point

[01:35:14] There are these rumors of like miraski might be working on a cut there might be someone trying to like Restore some sort of vision of the thing and then like a month before that 4k box set comes out It just goes up on amazon

[01:35:27] It's like rentable on amazon, right? You can just write it just says not longer if anything It's maybe a couple minutes shorter, right? Yeah, okay or a minute shorter It's a different swaps out a ton of stuff essentially alternate takes a bunch of different things

[01:35:38] But it goes up with little fanfare Then it's a bonus on that disc and it's sort of like never got a ton of attention And because it was an editor's cut people were like how valid is this? And he's been very much like look

[01:35:48] I just think there's a better version of the movie than what we had to rush to put out I tried to salvage it this represents my opinion and not me trying to restore sam's idea and he edited doctor strange

[01:35:58] So it's not like sam and he had fallen out. Absolutely, but a lot of alternate takes It adds a couple things it cuts a lot of the worst scenes out of the movie, right?

[01:36:06] Which I will go over the other thing is it like has a pretty different score I think chris for young score was like redone a lot and then sony came in with notes and added It said we want this emotion instead of this emotion

[01:36:19] There was a score that helped settle the tone of the movie a lot more and makes it feel more cohesive As do the sort of alternate takes in certain cases two huge things that are cut it cuts the entire butler scene Good It's a tough scene

[01:36:36] It doesn't help this maybe it's very superficial, but it doesn't help that the butler has like this flat midwestern Do you know who the butler is? It's um bill

[01:36:45] Oh, that's funny. I didn't know that but uh if the butler every time every time he shows up on screen And he's about to open his mouth. I'm like, oh he's gonna have like like a received pronunciation But then he's like, uh harry

[01:37:00] For people who don't remember there's a scene where the butler at the end of three movies essentially decides to be like Fyi, i've been here the whole time. I knew the whole thing. I never said it right your dad died on his own glider

[01:37:10] Whatever spider-man didn't kill him So in spider-man 2 auto octavius is like he just runs through all the scenes that harry wasn't there for Um, they cut that scene out entirely the way that moment plays is

[01:37:22] Peter comes through makes the plea to harry sees how scarred he is harry sort of has his like clenched emotions Peter leaves he looks down at the picture frame of the three of them together

[01:37:34] With cracked glass over it and he looks at it and cries and then looks up and it is just a much subtler Much better The thing that brings him back is because peter has been arguing for his innocence this entire time either He's gonna believe peter or not

[01:37:50] The butler saying this is just way too much to throw on him The thing that works is because peter's plea is do it for mj. I don't care if you hate me mj is in danger

[01:38:00] He looks back down at the photo and he remembers like god how far have things gotten away from us? What insane like fucking lives we now live we we I this is what matters and it makes I think harry's death also I find something kind of touching about

[01:38:17] That final sort of moment of the three of them as the sun is rising sort of all holding each other just being like It feels like a less cynical version of the starship troopers thing

[01:38:27] Yeah, where all three of them end up together at the end and they're like how crazy right like five years ago We were kids right now. We have all these adult problems and one of us is dead

[01:38:35] You know, but I like that it just regrounds into that thing. There's the the second aunt may scene they cut out entirely as well The one about like the guilt. Yes, right

[01:38:46] He is like the whole point of this was my fucking daughter and I can't even see her anymore I'm a monster now. Everyone knows me in the press as this criminal or whatever

[01:38:54] and uh, it's it's theresa russell and the daughter, uh who had a room where she was Steve jobs's daughter sandman's daughter and and the bride's daughter in kill bill volume two. Oh, really? Wait, steve jobs's daughter She's the oldest job

[01:39:11] I was just saying because that movie's later. No, I know she's the oldest she's the final daughter in that movie the final daughter Yeah, perla Yeah, um they're sitting on a bench and and

[01:39:26] Teresa russell's like you need to understand your dad's like a fuck up. He fundamentally fucks everything up. You cannot rely on him Even if he's trying his best he's going to hurt you. You don't want him in your life and

[01:39:37] She like gets up and sort of like hobbles over and sees the sand castle and can tell that it's him and like touches it And sort of has the moment of like I understand that he's trying and the mom doesn't see it

[01:39:48] She looks back to her mom. She looks over the sand castle is gone and it's like a nice little thing There are just some little character moments like that. They re-instate there are the clunkiest sort of overwritten scenes

[01:40:00] They all take out their alternate takes and score cues that just tonally like flatten it out They also take out a lot of eddie brock, right? They sort of strip it down to the bare minimum, but I do think it flows better

[01:40:14] It's not a fundamentally different movie. I think it's just a little bit more consistent It is a cut done by someone who doesn't have studio executives breathing down their neck and has a little more time to think over it um

[01:40:27] The only mistake I think it makes is it it changes the fucking cue at the end of the movie So it isn't the elfman theme and it's some other piece of

[01:40:36] Instrumentation that's not as iconic and and resonant. Can we talk about the best scene in this entire movie? Okay, what's the best scene birth of the sandman? It is pretty good. Do you think that's the best scene in the entire movie? Is it birth of the sandman?

[01:40:47] Yeah, the the him trying to reconstitute himself. Yeah, I mean, I love that scene or I really like that scene I don't know if I love it. I love that scene, but it's great. It's very griffin scene

[01:40:57] In that it's like this sort of miraculous technological scene as well. I mean, I I think it's also very universal monster That's right the hand. Yeah

[01:41:06] I just I think I think actually my favorite scene in my favorite scene sequence in the movie is the is the james brown Right. I think that is I think that sort of is sort of like the it's the boldest thing in the movie

[01:41:18] But the sandman thing is sort of similarly bold. Yeah Why why do you love that apart from the sort of is it is it the kind of like universal monster tragic? There's also I mean part of part of I guess how uh,

[01:41:28] Tom, st. George acts it is as when he's first dissolving the sand his face is rid of like yes, he's like horrified Yes, he's like i'm done. It's like i'm dying. Yeah, it's a kind of crestfallen. Yeah

[01:41:39] I think it's a complete story the scene in and of itself, right? The fact that like it speaks to the sort of ramy at his best his sort of incredibly clean expressiveness That the scene is driven by a character who is struggling to

[01:41:56] even be able to uh create recognizable human expressions That you're like projecting these emotions onto A pretty formless mound of shit. Yeah Uh, and that going from like the individual grain to then seeing the entire sort of silo of the sand

[01:42:15] That like struggle to get his fingers to maintain integrity The like the entire internal journey of it without any narration or whatever I think that's also like the best track in the score which

[01:42:26] Watching the editor's cut. I do think the score is pretty good. Like, you know the ramy I always dinged it for not being ramy, but I think the sandman theme is good I think that theme in particular is good. You mean elf i'm not right. I'm sorry

[01:42:38] That's what I mean, but there's this uh anthony lane's review of this movie when it came out Okay, the opening paragraph was all about that scene Right and just kind of how incredible uh, it is

[01:42:51] And the opening sentence of his review is there's one great scene in spider-man 3 and you can pretty much leave the theater once it's over But for those three or four minutes, you wouldn't want to be anywhere else. I it's very compelling

[01:43:02] I agree with and I think about that line a lot too When there's like a movie that doesn't work that can have one scene that is so locked in and such a clean expression Of what the person was trying to do

[01:43:13] That he's literally like there's nowhere else in the world you'd rather be than watching these two minutes of spider-man 3 Okay, but but what do we think of mary jane's arc in this movie? I like it. Why do you like it?

[01:43:25] I really like dunce performance. I like her performance throughout this one and mind you the thing I just rewatched was the cut that maybe has better takes of her Performance. Yeah, sure. I mean, I don't that's okay. I don't know. I don't know. I just I felt like

[01:43:40] In my mind's eye this movie fell prey to the plot line that is always dicey of like Uh, the girlfriends have said she's not getting enough attention. Yes Yes, it's a bad plot line. It's a bad plot line. Yeah, and then she doesn't get anything to do

[01:43:55] I think she plays incredibly well. Yes. She's a good actress But the character is horribly underserved and then like she's jealous of gwen stacy who's a non-character And it all just feels like she's behaving stupidly

[01:44:08] And I feel like it's a like it's not a good way to treat her character well this is not well treated in the first movie, you know, it's like mary jane's sort of inconsistent because often she has to be the

[01:44:17] The thing to rescue or the the thing between her and him Him and harry or whatever right? Like, you know, it's a lot of that But I think this one is so much about her. I like her scene with harry when they're cooking. I was gonna say

[01:44:27] I think that's a great scene. That's a place where there's some juice. Right? I right. I also think franco's good in this movie He I I really

[01:44:35] I he's we were he's a real feast or famine actor. Yeah, I said that to you and i'm more often than not dislike him I really like him in one and two. I like his sort of weird harry in general

[01:44:45] His weird take on harry which is kind of like a loof rich kid who doesn't know how to fit in thing, right? Who's handsome but also an alien, right? Yeah. Yeah, and then this one

[01:44:53] I feel like he's good when he's doing that but I feel like he's kind of like Bored when he's in like evil goblin mode like quote unquote, you know Like when he's yes

[01:45:01] Which is how I feel about him in oz and how I feel about him in like almost in planet the apes Well, that's almost any blockbuster He was in where I was just kind of like are you bored like all of a sudden that weird thing with franco?

[01:45:11] I mean those in right something's dead behind me in rise and oz they are performances that actually like make me angry where i'm like Let someone else do this. Someone might enjoy doing this

[01:45:22] People felt about him at the oscars. They will at least enjoy making this money you ungrateful fuck Who's gonna like make this film and then talk about why like well, I knew it was bad

[01:45:31] But I thought it was an interesting statement to be in a film like this while i'm also teaching a class On being in movies that suck or whatever and i'm like fuck you, right? I think he's less comfortable with the new goblin stuff. I do like

[01:45:44] Everything after he gets scarred when he sort of once again becomes more tragic universal. I enjoy his uh, Do you guys like his you know messed up face? Yeah

[01:45:56] Well, and this is that is so comic book even except the doctor's like I don't know what to tell you He's the normal guy except he just doesn't remember like the last six or seven issues

[01:46:06] My friend my best friend peter. I love you where we we just graduated high school, right? How's my dad that thing where the nurse is like those are good friends. He's not good friend best

[01:46:17] His messed up face looks good really good. I like his messed up face and I think I think kind of is messed up Frank you're like shit Franco leans into the sort of james deeneyness of it then

[01:46:27] Which he's so good at right and and I I think once again, it's like The stuff with mary and harry mary jane and harry is fun to me because it gets back to this thing of just like

[01:46:38] fuck we were so miserable and angsty when we were teenagers and that feeling where you're like In your mid to late 20s and you're like I didn't realize how good I had it. Yeah, we're hot

[01:46:48] Right, I like it when he says do you like peppers and she's like I love peppers and I'm like no one's ever said that No one loves That feeling of mary jane like give me a bell pepper, baby holding all this weird information

[01:47:00] Knowing that he's got amnesia and this isn't real but being like wouldn't it be nice to just pretend that it was just this again This peter thing's like not fucking working. I don't know. I think she's good and I do just she's great

[01:47:12] Yeah, I think I think my my I have no beef with her performance Is I'm so I think her performance is very good and I think she's just like very good at playing you know

[01:47:23] Moments where you could play big she plays small. Yeah, and I think that's sort of like kind of her power Like she knows it's just like really modulate The emotions while still delivering the impact of a big performance um, and so I sort of Did not pay

[01:47:37] It's sort of like yeah, she's in this movie more than the other one The other ones she's very like either damsel in distress, which she often is yeah or or a drag or a drag

[01:47:48] I think there's probably a way to do the peter's not paying attention enough to me. Uh story And just have it be a little more Nuanced a little less sort of like I need attention a little more sort of like you're not tending this relationship

[01:48:03] How you do it you take a villain out because the reason anytime she's like I just feel like you're not paying attention to me I'm, like mary jane too much is going like I the viewer i'm like, what do you mean? Have you read this script?

[01:48:14] um, right you take a villain out sort of like it's the dilemma Right and I think this is I think this is kind of what they were going for right that like peter becomes so

[01:48:23] Self-absorbed right about being spider-man that he just ceases to tend. It's an absolute corruption. Absolutely What keeps spider-man spider-man is that he's humbled constantly by the universe. Okay

[01:48:35] Okay, can I just say fame praise the word because I think i've identified what I do marginally like about this and it's purely an Execution and most of the credit goes to mary jane. Yeah to dunce in her performance

[01:48:46] I think what I like is that she never has the you're not paying attention to me blow up scene Yeah Which is the scene that always like nails on a chalkboard feels like all you know

[01:48:55] How to do is turn the woman into a harpy right sort of emotionally unsatisfied whatever I like that the more he starts feeling himself getting absorbed with all this stuff. She just pulls back

[01:49:06] and that is just this thing of like he doesn't realize that she has been fired from the play until an hour and 30 minutes. This is my question If you're not gonna pay attention, I don't want to burden you. I guess i'll just be sad

[01:49:19] No, but we have to talk about this. All right Do you guys think she's bad in the play? Like how bad is she in the play? Because we see her perform and it's a nice little number. I think it's nice. So

[01:49:30] How can she be so bad that they fired her from a broadway show? She's a union actor Yeah, that is hard to do. They are replacing her name on the damn marquee Like one performance in how bad was she did she like fall over in act two?

[01:49:45] I I can't get over it that they fire her. It's crazy explain it to me now Go, look, I I think the only way it works is if you have to imagine that she's like this weird it girl And they're like now she's gonna do a musical

[01:50:00] And kirsten dunst has a nice singing voice, but a very particular kind of like zoe de chanel-esque singing voice Yes, right. Yeah, right and that they're sitting there and they're like we put this young star

[01:50:11] In this show and she's not giving us fireworks and the reviews were bad You don't fire someone for bad reviews I wouldn't this industry is brutal Uh, I think you like the mary jane because of what I like about the mary jane the last scene

[01:50:28] Is so nice. It's very lovely I had forgotten that it ended like that. It's it's such an incredible way for a movie like this Yeah, especially when you're like this is the end of his trilogy whether or not that was his intention at the time

[01:50:40] Now you still have to think he Had to create an ending that he knew if I never get to make another one This is where it is and that they lend let it end on the two of them sadly dancing together

[01:50:49] And not even knowing how to talk through their problems anymore more Like I don't know this and this is why i'm always gonna go to bat for this movie because like the ending for me I'm, just like I will forever

[01:51:00] Want to defend it because he ended it this way and it cost 250 million dollars I knew this. It's a movie. I agree. It's a movie about fucking people. Like it's not a movie about

[01:51:10] Costumes keeps coming back to the people, you know purple genocide guys. It's not a hole in the sky it's a movie about Two kind of broken people. Yeah, it's like at the end of the day even when you have this crazy

[01:51:23] This was like the most expensive movie ever made 100 Yes, it cost I remember the thing where it leaked out that it cost 250 million dollars and the response was that must be a typo It is impossible, right? No movie for a movie to cost. Where does that money go?

[01:51:37] And the fact is like even when you get to this crazy end set piece where you have like seven characters all fighting and scaffolding It comes down to like four different apologies need to happen

[01:51:47] Yes, right the resolution of every plot line is like you just need to tell that person you're sorry about this They need to know that you're aware that you hurt their feelings and then you're gonna defeat them with church bells or whatever

[01:51:57] It's fine or you know banging sticks together solely apologies god the venom death and then it ends with a quiet a quiet sad Dance and the ending is so good And yeah at the same time I do kind of remember being at the multiplex opening weekend

[01:52:12] And ending like that and everyone being like, okay I guess we'll go like, you know, like, you know, like it's certainly the audience was not leaving being like Yeah

[01:52:21] Well, but it's it's a ramey throwing the needle thing I mean, you know another issue with this film is that One exceeded expectations, right? And then two exceeds like all sequel expectations where they're like, holy shit. How did he just perfect this fucking thing?

[01:52:38] So then I think you have three years of everyone being like well sam raimi is a genius Yeah, he is the one person who has figured out exactly how to make these movies he cannot air again

[01:52:47] I mean it's similar to what happened with the dark knight rises. Yes, right, which is a movie I think is totally fine. I liked it when I saw it in theaters and I will happily revisit it again I like this more than that

[01:52:57] But it's similarly a movie I want to fight for for specific reasons of what it tries to do Even for everything that works there's things that don't work, right? And before we started recording we talked a little bit about superman returns

[01:53:07] Yes, which is another movie that it's not a sequel or anything but it's like much better than it gets credit for yeah And it also one of the weird things about is that it is. Yeah, it is right To a movie that's like four generations. Yeah. Yes. I

[01:53:22] That's that's like the whole thing For me is that he still is He's keyed into the basic story he wants to tell here and even when it gets muddled The humanity of these central characters Yeah does basically stay intact and remain the key attraction

[01:53:41] Let me give you a quote from bill pope who shot this movie shot the last one too. Yeah, bill pope the legendary bill pope And he talks about a lot of cinematographers do this you make a visual flow chart, right for like the moods

[01:53:52] How how the atmosphere will be scene by scene right maybe colors things like that and he was like spider-man we couldn't do it because the uh emotions and there's so many characters who change

[01:54:04] So much that like there was no way to map it out in a way that looked logical. That's fascinating And also the characters have entirely different color palettes Yes, you're like black sandman is like green and yellow and then new goblin is like green and black

[01:54:17] Yeah, kind of steely green. Yeah, right like and it's basically he's like there are four characters They're going either from light to dark or dark to light or light to dark to light or whatever, right?

[01:54:26] But they're all doing it at different times. They're all doing it on different tracks night sequences You have dawn you have dusk you have morning the score key and also the script would keep changing you know, like the way he describes it basically does seem to be like

[01:54:38] New pages are coming in every day where it's like no No, actually the green goblin thing's gonna happen over here now or whatever. So I do this is that's all the problem I agree with you what you're saying the three main kids

[01:54:48] There's something there. Yeah, but everything around it is so noisy in this movie. Yeah, I just think look i'm not going to tell you to do it today because I certainly i'll watch the editors

[01:54:58] I just think it's an interesting spin to give at some point because I think Aside from everything else it reorganizes some scenes in a better order as well It just makes it feel a little less man

[01:55:08] Does it have venom dive into uh the bomb to get back into the suit and turn into a skeleton? Yes, I do like that. I like that too. I love that

[01:55:16] But why I like that is because it does feel like sam may be being like don't ever fucking ask me about venom again Yeah, because initially it seems like oh spider-man's gonna blow up the suit but eddie brock will survive

[01:55:26] And we can have a little post credits thing where it's like, oh, there's a blob left And then sam is like no Eddie brock dives in the whole thing explodes, right? No more venom, right?

[01:55:35] The fundamental made me do this and i'm not doing it anymore. He refuses to apologize. He refuses to take responsibility Um, that's another thing that's reinstated back into the movie There's like a montage of like black suit spider-man killing it

[01:55:47] Which was a bunch of stuff that was in the trailer that they should have made that's really expensive like you need that Yeah, I know it's like weirdly missing and it's in the editor's cut and it helps the movie um

[01:55:59] Well one thing I want to tell you about in the research. Well the sand right? They shot a lot of real sand I guess I didn't know that. Yeah, the thing I remember reading I don't know if jay-jay pulled this up was that they like

[01:56:11] This this was such a like tech breakthrough was to try to do the particle physics of sandman which are a lot easier I think the to Do these days but that they like studied so many different types of grains to figure out what the best one would be

[01:56:24] 16 types of grains and they would mix them And the basic like backbone of this ended up being like ground-up corn husks Ground-up corn cobs. I think that was for understanding how it affects the body because they were like we can't bury someone in sand

[01:56:38] Right, but we need to bury someone in something right? So they did that but the cgi is also sort of emulating what those look yes Uh, and then the symbiote obviously, you know who cares? I feel like the challenge is how it moves. I like how it moves

[01:56:51] I do too. I like this It has the also the vaguely dead-eye ask like turkey jerky movement, which I like uh, and um, Uh, and yeah, the other thing right in the research we have mentioned is danielfman

[01:57:04] You mentioned obviously danielfman didn't do it. Yeah, but he didn't do this movie because he found spider-man 2 miserable. Yeah Uh, it's like my connection with sam got severed as far as i'm concerned

[01:57:15] He went to sleep someone put a pod next to him and when he awoke he wasn't the same person I'd known for a decade now look danielfman will motherfuck someone I feel like we've encountered this dramatic man. He's kind of a dramatic dude

[01:57:26] I I he mad I think he's mad that he got into the temp score so much and kept being like Get it to sound more like this temp score and danielfman was like you're you're driving me crazy. This is what happened. Uh,

[01:57:37] If you watch spider-man 2 there's very little new music in it He essentially makes like a doc ock theme that they reuse Uh several times across the film, but I think what happened because that movie was on such a tight timeline it comes out so quickly

[01:57:51] That they're like editing as they go and they edit it they cut it to elfman score for the first movie, right? So they reuse tracks from the first movie and they played it for him and they went like

[01:58:02] We just want you to do music in these five spots and he's like I want to do a full score Let me if you want something like this in this sequence. I'll do a new version of it

[01:58:12] And ramey was like, okay, and then when they were re-recording he was like just do the exact same thing again So ramey like wouldn't let him do new music

[01:58:19] And essentially married him into old tracks like the sequence where peter's testing his powers out again, too. We'll talk about that Um, but that that's the crux of the thing there. They reconnect on oz they they're right and they figured it out Yeah, whatever, but he hates them

[01:58:36] But I do think the young score always felt a little we have elfman at home to me Yes, and the editor's cut I do think when you hear his full version of it. It's better I'm seeing here. I'm, sorry. I just got an invitation, uh griffin newman

[01:58:51] july 28th is marrying the spider-man 3 editors cut the central park boathouse What is this? It's just it's wait by rsvp. Yes. I will attend paperless posts It's not as dramatic as chicken or fucking swing shift or something. What kind of fish are we talking about?

[01:59:08] Sorry, just big old plate of sardines Stacked up on top of each other and toast that's very in right now. Yeah huge They're good for omega-3 oils, you know jimelle Is there anything in your sort of like grand theory of this movie that you have not yet present?

[01:59:22] Like you're you're sort of grand defense of this movie. Yeah, I don't think I think we've sort of hit on all of it I think my grand defense of this movie is that I will acknowledge the problems like they are there and it's silly to pretend

[01:59:32] Like they're not but right. It's not like you're like it's the best of the three, right? You acknowledge that two is the best and one and three are good with problems. My view is that the Abysmal reputation this movie has is entirely unjustified when you watch this movie

[01:59:47] even if you watch it some some years removed from the other ones what you see is Uh still kind of it's still kind of unique in this genre a film about three people in extraordinary circumstances and how they deal with those extraordinary circumstances how they affect their

[02:00:03] Relationship and I think that stuff is very compelling. I think that uh, it remains a through line through this movie I think that even if the even as the point you've made griffin a number of times

[02:00:14] even if they're never fully able to really kind of connect all these villains together in this movie that there are Elements of each storyline that really do work and really do tie into what ramey is trying to do with these three movies

[02:00:27] Um, and I think it's entertaining. I mean like I think I think it's broadly entertaining I think if you if you just sort of like let yourself kind of experience the movie And not

[02:00:37] Go into it with what I think a lot of people have but it's like a chip on their shoulder about not getting Yeah, I think that they want it and just sort of take it on its own terms. You'll come away being like this is a

[02:00:47] Entertaining movie with problems and honestly, I think it's like better than most of the stuff in the genre that's coming out now yeah, it's like It's it's home cooking as opposed to processed food, right? Uh, I I also just feel like I feel like whenever you uh

[02:01:04] People who just made a hit movie do an interview about working on the sequel and trying to develop the script or whatever They always pay lip service to this thing. We're like well it comes back to

[02:01:14] Can we find a good journey for the character? How do you test the character right? Really at the end of the day, it's not about the macguffin or the vill it's about really testing the character

[02:01:23] And I think this is a movie where if it has a fundamental failing It's that they come up with like three different tests for the character But this movie is not a plot driven film it is truly as are all three spider-man movies

[02:01:36] extensions of what is the challenge that peter parker a Development man goes through right in order to gain a greater greater understanding of himself and his relationships of the people closest to him And you have sort of three alternate movies in this right?

[02:01:47] It's like him healing his relationship with harry, right? Probably the best of the three arts Yeah him coming to understand the sandman. There's stuff there The uncle ben thing feels a little crowbar you understand from sony's perspective at the hairy arc

[02:02:01] They're like that's the thing that's on the table that needs to be resolved Of course, right and brainy is like salmon is the thing that would get me the most excited, right?

[02:02:08] And then the venom thing is like I don't really know what peter learns there. Don't have venom suits Avoid those right like I don't really know what he learns. No, it's like I could have been a huge asshole

[02:02:19] Not letting the the selfishness take over. I mean the yeah, right I mean like when venom dies, I don't know if peter's like oh no Well, no, I think I think what he it's the eddie was so addicted to that fucking feeling right that he's like

[02:02:34] I know that feeling it's bad i'd rather die right and and Even just peter like at the beginning of the movie when everyone's like celebrating spider-man before he puts the the symbiote suit on It's still the fact where it's like

[02:02:46] I was buying into the hype so much. I wasn't paying attention to my girlfriend getting fired Like I didn't even realize how the venom the venom suit is a amped up version of what he experienced at the beginning of the movie

[02:02:56] Yes, and it's a feeling of the movie that it doesn't really doesn't need to create that. Well, right? It doesn't it doesn't but but again, I think that It's all there. The pieces are all Frustrating I think if this had come out

[02:03:11] If this exact movie yeah come out in 2019 People would lose their fucking minds finally a superhero movie that cares about the people in this movie. Absolutely and and like sure it would right Yeah, you know look

[02:03:23] they've maybe gotten a little more elegant at like putting these things in with confidence when they're shit like sam man tripping into the the you know the silo or uh, the Symbiote just happening to land there. This movie feels kind of embarrassed and shrugging them off

[02:03:38] And they're like, what are we gonna do? It just we gotta get we gotta get through it. Well, it also just has no time like you say exactly I think something like no way home is as sweaty and the connections and the coincidences

[02:03:48] But it does it with a certain confidence now that all these movies are like you understand We just have to get through this like the fact that the thing Peter needs to reset the universe because he fucked up with the college admissions advisor

[02:04:00] The thing that makes him realize is go to doctor strange Is that halloween decorations are still up and dracula kind of looks like like shit like that You're just like yeah

[02:04:08] But do you know what that movie has that this guy's that none of these movies is that peter can be come on? Dr. Strange i've gotta do this thing and dr. Strange looks at him and he's like

[02:04:18] Yeah, and you're like right because they like fought an alien together, right? That's what those movies have Yeah, is that benet cumbers can give him a look and you're like well It sucks. I know about the long history of these characters and it papers overs over nonsense, right?

[02:04:32] Which is dr. Yeah, it's a brief little spell who cares papers over the fact that the emotional beats in that movie are entirely derived from stuff like 15 or 20 years earlier, right? Like it's it's it's it's it's a pure cynical nostalgia play and

[02:04:48] I mean, I get why people like it's the sweatiest movie alive I I talked about this but I took my six-year-old cousin to see and anytime he asked me a plot question My answer confused him more

[02:04:58] Than what he was originally confused by I just had to be like, I don't just fuck I can tell you what it is You're not gonna be happy. I love my stories though. It's like a soap opera who cares, you know

[02:05:08] Storylines and characters coming back to life and I think in 2007 people watch this movie and they're like this is too busy There's too much going on what the fuck and I think now audiences watch something like no way home

[02:05:19] And when there's like some sweaty rush plot development, they're like well, of course because they have to set up seven other characters I understand they need to do that I mean, there's this sort of cynical acceptance of like i'm fine with seeing the gears of the story machinery

[02:05:31] Yeah, if it gets me to the end point if you ever have me on for like a dc movie or whatever I will go into a whole rant about this exact thing about how viewers have turned themselves into like mini studio executives

[02:05:43] And how it is it's like I feel like it I spend too much time on tiktok And there are so many tiktok videos of people basically doing well, you know people say this movie gets bad

[02:05:53] But what you don't understand is it's setting up x y and z and that's why it's actually good And the executives are geniuses and it's like I don't know what the fuck is wrong with you people this movie isn't setting up anything uh

[02:06:06] Anything as much as it doesn't seem like a definitive end to The ramey mcguire spider-man's the only thing it's setting up is just like and kurt connors is still just there in the background but like as opposed to two which ends with

[02:06:19] Mary jane picking peter lots of hairy finding Right all this sort of shit. It's not setting up. Uh anything and I I I do just Sets up kind of a sandman movie i'd say he's out there. I mean

[02:06:32] He blows away blows away. I mean, where does the wind take him? That's all i'm saying. Um One other final complaint that I have is like I don't the same like there's stuff like the the sandman creation That's bravura

[02:06:46] But the action is sort of not like as next level as it feels in two. I think this is very much A case of them reaching beyond their means like even with the biggest budget in the fucking world

[02:06:59] Visual effects weirdly look worse in some ways like some of the swinging and stuff Do you know what? I think it is if I can try to explain this very quickly

[02:07:07] Yeah, so so often when I watch the corridor crew videos just what he means is he's gonna take a while explaining I'm not i'm not I'm not Okay, go ahead there'll be things where they'll show a scene and very often now they'll have like the actual vfx

[02:07:23] Person who worked on the movies. They'll be like our guest today is a guy from weta Yeah, they can get the guys right so they go So how do you do this sequence where the guy deteriorates into sand?

[02:07:32] How do you make thomas hayden church deteriorate into sand and their answer is almost always? The whole shot is cgi and they're like really and they're like you get to a point Where if you have one live action element and everything else around him is cgi, right?

[02:07:45] The live action looks worse. Yeah, and it actually is better to just use the thing you shot as reference And just scrap it and recreate the entire thing or cgi or at the very least what they do is they like build a 3d

[02:07:58] Model of thomas hayden church and they take the still image that they filmed of him and they wrap it around Right, right And this is a movie where the compositing is still like two-dimensional

[02:08:10] Where they're like 3d environments with 3d effects and you have thomas hayden church in like a three-day subway station With a 3d train car and it's 3d. I'm sorry cgi subway station train car sand And the only thing that's real is thomas hayden church

[02:08:24] And what they're doing is truly the color form of just like and just cut him in here And it does make things feel more disconnected. Like I think the pure spidey cgi venom shit looks good And I think anytime there's a human face in a shot

[02:08:37] It feels more disjointed. All right I think I agree with you. I mean, yeah, there's just something off about some of the great Yeah, they're they're overreaching and right the octa doc oc fights are so perfect. Anyway this film came out may 4th it made 2007

[02:08:53] Made 336 million dollars. It made 900 million worldwide It was the highest grossing film of 2007 and it was the highest grossing spider-man film until no way not Sorry far from home maybe like, you know worldwide. Yeah, finally it was beaten by far from home. Yeah, I think that's it

[02:09:10] Yeah, no way home is still the first one to beat it domestically, right? And like so like it's not like it wasn't successful. No, but it is that kind of classic thing of like

[02:09:20] Everyone involved also kind of knew like we did definitely lose some public trust on this the opening weekend was 160 the opening weekend, of course Is going to be told to you by me yeah now right and the answer is 167 151 151, okay But it breaks the record

[02:09:39] I guess so because dark knight breaks that record a year later with yes Three or something if I can just leapfrog for a second here This was the month where they were like, is this going to cannibalize the industry?

[02:09:53] You have three huge trilogy enders all coming out like three consecutive weeks Right where it was spider-man 3 pirates the caribbean 3 shrek 3 all came out in may And they were like these are three of the biggest franchises

[02:10:05] Each one of them has broken opening weekend records and they're all going to come out within spitting distance of each other And then transformers comes out that same summer as well

[02:10:15] Obviously parts of caribbean and shrek go like we should do a fourth and like overstay their welcome right spider-man They hit the reset button Transformers is the like wins the summer in the court of public opinion in a weird sort of a way

[02:10:28] Another movie that sort of wins the summer is a film called knocked up Comes out a month later. Yes in which seeing spider-man 3 is kind of a plot point Everyone wants to see spider-man 3 it is invoked constant. Yes. It's really funny

[02:10:41] Yes, it's actually I think jedd apatow just understands that like leslie man saying I want to see spider-man 3 just sort of sounds funny Like these grown-ups want to see a movie when they like interview franco on the red carpet for saron 3 or whatever

[02:10:54] It is it is funny, but it also was this weird thing of like He understood the weird power Of having that movie come out in the summer and having characters argue about a movie that is playing one screen over Not some fictional blockbuster

[02:11:09] But being like I know the movie everyone's gonna be talking about spider-man 3 and I know when we're coming out um Movie did not get great reviews. Although it's that kind of like phantom menacey thing where it's like star trek and darkness mildly positive

[02:11:21] Yeah, it's just a lot of people being like, hmm Not quite as good not quite as like, you know You know sort of more like of a 60 on rotten tomatoes number two in america. I remember distinctly because

[02:11:33] I don't know if it's been beaten now. It had the record for the Widest disparity between number one and number two at the box office. It made five million dollars It was week four of the story four of dystopia

[02:11:47] Disturbia dj caruso's right turbia is number two at the disturbia surprisingly successful and then everyone knew spider-man 3 was coming So no one released anything of note in the three weeks leading up to spider-man

[02:11:58] And disturbia just kept on pulling down very small number ones and did well everyone was happy with dystopia summer of shia Uh, it's true. Uh number three at the box office. Yeah you Know that is opening number six tough

[02:12:14] No, but you're right that no like this is a box office filled with movies that are basically like what can we dump? Right, right sacrificial exactly. Yeah before spider-man. So this is only that in the next two weeks. You're gonna have to

[02:12:26] Like they were like we're gonna have 300 million dollar plus openings in a row Um, this is yes. This is a crime thriller Starring an oscar winner. Okay and an oscar nominee Okay, an old vet and a young buck Uh, it is forgotten

[02:12:45] It's a forgotten sort of like a the recruit-esque thing. Yeah, but it's like a legal thriller It's a legal thriller. It is forgotten. Oh, it is the movie fracture incredible I would have never guessed that I killed my wife

[02:12:59] Right anthony hopkins and ryan gosling the tagline for that movie was I killed my wife and it's not the one where ryan gosling Is playing robert durst? No, that is all good things with

[02:13:09] Marriaging kirsten dunst herself. Um, yeah. Yes. Uh, but yes fracture fracture is anthony hopkins shows up Ryan reynolds hotshot lawyer and he goes I killed my wife. I want you to defend me And he's like why is he telling me he killed his wife what's going on?

[02:13:23] I assume there's some twist I think he has to prove that he's innocent even though the guy's telling him that he's guilty or some shit like that I don't know if I can guess the shit number four at the box office is a supernatural teen thriller

[02:13:34] uh made by someone who was Hot in the comic book movie industry. Is it david goyer's the invisible is it chronicle? It's not chronicle It is david goyer's the invisible when is chronicle chronicle nine is yeah No, it's 2012. That's how old we are. Wow

[02:13:51] Um, no exactly. It's it's a more forgotten film than chronicle. It's the invisible I don't know anything which is a david goyer movie. It's a justin chatelain picture. Uh, yeah, sure

[02:14:01] Yeah, is he invisible? What's it about ghost or some shit? I don't fucking know who gives a shit. Okay, fine Great. We don't know I think he's a dead kid and he comes back and he can see people and he solves his own death or some shit like

[02:14:11] That david goyer would write these huge blockbusters and then he would like direct these movies, right? like this and uh He did the weird uh dibbuk movie With gary oldman as a rabbi. Oh, of course. Yeah the unborn unborn. Yeah

[02:14:26] And he would do interviews with ana cool because they wanted to talk to him to get like batman scoops And they'd be like, so what about this movie and be like, I don't know

[02:14:33] It's like this fucking shit the studios want for kids. I tried to make it really scary, but I can't because Like he'd be like i'm tying an arm behind my back. These kids eat this shit up uh number five at the box office is a science fiction film

[02:14:48] It's based on a short story by philip k deck. Hmm Uh scanner darkly. It's not a scanner darkly 2007 it's not a good film. Yeah, unlike a scanner darkly. Yeah How how heavy the sci-fi?

[02:15:02] Uh, i've never seen it but my guess is somewhat heavy. It stars one of your favorite actors It starts one of my favorite actors As the lead oh he's the lead in 2007 Yeah Philip k dick. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh

[02:15:22] It's the movie next next lee tomahawry's next next nicholas cage julianne moore Jessica, beale correct peter falk Combo's in this movie. Peter falk is like he Works at like the garage peter flock in that movie called herb apparently. He's like brian cranson in drive

[02:15:42] He's like kid you gotta stop seeing what's next So it's the he's a magician who can see into the future and this gets him mixed up with terrorists and maybe the fbi Yeah Next can I ruin the twist of next?

[02:15:56] If you don't want to hear the twist of next Press your skip ahead button. Yeah So the whole movie is he can see a little bit into the future and so he can decide what the best thing to do Is right so like there's a 10 minute sequence

[02:16:08] Where he's at a diner with jessica beale and he sees her and he's like I want to talk to this pretty girl And you have to watch him run through 10 different scenarios of how to make small talk with her

[02:16:18] It truly goes on for like 10 minutes. Okay, whole movie proceeds. He gets hijacked by the government They're like we want to use your brain as a weapon Whatever the end of the movie you realize none of the movie happened and he was just seeing a possible scenario

[02:16:29] And he's like, yeah, i'm not gonna do that movie and he gets in a car drives away That sounds that's very stupid like everything after the first 15 minutes doesn't happen and you're just it's so it is

[02:16:40] Astonishingly more deflating than anything else. It is it is like such an insult to the audience people are like ripping their chairs out Uh, number six is lucky you which yeah, this movie looks bad. I'm not gonna make it

[02:16:52] Right. Yeah, that would be funny if it's it's nicholas cage at a pitch meeting Uh lucky you's the curtis hanson gambling movie with eric bonna right which also sat on the shelf for like two years, right? uh Right, which is is that curtis hanson's last note?

[02:17:06] Mavericks is he have to right? Yeah, and then he did the hbo things which is really good to fail. Right? Yeah Uh number seven is meet the robinsons a film. I feel like you defend a movie. I think is low-key charming late disney

[02:17:19] Early disney cgi. You'll you'll watch it with the boss baby in three years You'll be scraping the bottom of the barrel. That's fine doing anything you can to avoid coco melon

[02:17:27] And you're gonna watch meet the robinsons four times. Do you watch coco melon or we don't really watch anything at home with him Um, but they he watches at school What does he watch, you know?

[02:17:37] Uh, I don't he what he watches cookie. I know he's watched coco melon. I always watch paw patrol. Sure. I know he's watched frozen paw patrol Don't don't get ben worked up. We're trying to end the episode. We can't even get started. We can't get been crying um

[02:17:52] Blades of glory is in the top 10 a big comedy hit. Um, hot fuzz is in the top 10. Yeah anger rights, yeah Breakout ish. I don't know. Yeah Yeah, I don't know. I guess we used to agree with his worst film and now there's a movie we actually

[02:18:06] Actually dislike there's a right. There's an actual bad one now, uh, or very flawed I guess sure and then are we done yet? Is that the sequel to are we there yet? Yeah, it was a big box office ice jumper recently. Yeah. Yeah, right

[02:18:18] So are we there yet? The road trip movie with his girlfriend's kids. Are we done yet? He's what fixing up the house It's a remake of mr. Blandlings builds his dream house, correct? The carrie grant film. Yes

[02:18:28] Uh, but yes, it's he's trying to fix a hat. It's like a money pit style thing Classic. Yeah, uh offensively this film was not nominated for best visual effects or maybe not offensively

[02:18:37] I just feel like the sandman stuff should get it in there high but it speaks to I just think what a bad taste On this thing right right golden compass wins that year and pirates of the caribbean and transformers

[02:18:47] Both are the other nominees and I guess those might have a better case like world's end has incredible visual effects incredible And transformers was kind of doing a thing

[02:18:57] No one had seen before but dead man's chest had one dead man's chest won the year before and of course That's the one that introduces david jones and all that. That's really impressive michael bay's whole like

[02:19:07] Talking point in interviews that summer was like I had to make this movie with like half the budget of spider-man Like he was like I had to be scrappy with 125 million dollars and every character in this is a robot And on that level transformers looks insane

[02:19:21] That is the but the other thing with transformers is you were just like how the how the fuck now? It's like yeah sure. I know how that's when they when they're toys Like talking when they announced transformers. I said that is impossible. It's not doable, right?

[02:19:34] How can you have that many large characters? In one movie that's a movie that like I would just love to go to someone 400 years from now and be like look at this Let's watch this together

[02:19:45] Like even maybe a sequel like one of the ones where it's like a bunch of robots are actually having like major Conversations with each other but that is as you said movies are bananas Oh insane

[02:19:54] That is the movie of this summer that hollywood starts taking ideas from and then the next summer is iron man and dark knight And yeah, everything's changed. So spider-man 4 Uh, of course was the plan Spider-man's five and six were also announced. Yeah They never happened

[02:20:13] Uh, david kepp was brought in james vanderbilt was brought in ramey hated the scripts Yeah, the studio didn't like ramey's ideas about vulture or whatever And it all falls apart

[02:20:25] But I think it was just the classic ramey thing where he's like I am not going to deliver another fucking movie to you Until I am satisfied with the script

[02:20:31] Like i'm not doing what we just did again where I like just have to hit I refuse to apologize for a spider-man movie again Right, so either we're doing this right or i'm not doing it and it got to the point where they said it's too much

[02:20:42] Money, they're too stubborn and and part of the sony deal has always been There has to be a new spider-man movie every whatever years um, and their deal was always like in exchange for that

[02:20:54] Marvel has 25 of the licensing and merchandising and whatever right when they make the deal Renew it for the andrew garfield movies. The deal becomes marvel keeps 100 of merchandise And so marvel's like then we're fine. We don't fucking need the movies. Whatever, right?

[02:21:10] It's when those movies start bombing and the merch sales go down that foggy has to come in and be like you're tanking the character Yeah, you're gonna the toys are no longer worth anything, right? um

[02:21:19] But the other thing I remember is that when james van der belt gets hired and he's getting hired the same year as zodiac good movie great movie That uh, they're working on four. Ramey's more hands-on than that. Vanderbilt is like pitching five and six

[02:21:33] He's pitching a five and six that they could shoot back to back because that's the new hotness again after pirates the caribbean But part of the thing was like he's writing a five and six That if they didn't want to use ramey

[02:21:45] And mcguire could easily be rewritten as a reboot, right? And so what he's writing is spider-man. I think pretty quickly because he wrote that movie. Yeah. Yeah It's not good horrendous. It's not horrendous, but I think it's horrendous two is worse two is worse

[02:22:02] But that's also like case in point why I will always fight for this movie Yeah, because i'm like is this what you want? Well now we have tom holland d and you just don't

[02:22:10] You just think those movies are kind of like whatever. I I think they're kind of whatever I mean My single biggest complaint with the mcu spider-man, uh movies, which I guess they're largely fixed

[02:22:20] Is that sort of like I don't know spider-man as like, you know, adventure capitalists as buddy, right? It's just sort of hawk's apprentice, right? I mean tony Tony star that would whip that would work Okay

[02:22:32] Tony hawk is like let me teach you how to land a 1080 or whatever. Yeah, but Him as tony stark's apprentice. It's just sort of like it's sort of It kind of doesn't it misses what I think makes the character unique which is that he is an everyman like

[02:22:47] As soon as you have a peter parker who's like smart enough and cool enough to be friends with like a Tech billionaire it's sort of like what's what's he what's he doing in new york? Like what's he? Yes

[02:22:58] Why is he still peter parker? Why is he still peter parker? Where is where is that? It's just sort of like now no way home kind of ends with right and now he can be spider-man

[02:23:06] Now he's finally got a shitty apartment. He's single movies, but even I think that sort of misses One of my favorite gags with spider-man 2 is at the um engagement party for mary jane watson and

[02:23:20] J. Jonah jameson's son and he's peter's the photographer and he just wants to get a snack Yeah, every time he goes to get a snack right it gets taken away and I think it's for a little thing that like kind of put a

[02:23:30] Emphasize the point that the whole deal about peter being peter parker is yes for spider-man, but you get nothing else You get you every time breaks against you, right?

[02:23:41] Every time you reach for something it gets pulled away, right and your life is learning how to accept that. Yeah Yeah, and I think what I like about this movie is he spends two movies being like why me? Why can't it be easy?

[02:23:54] Why can't I have what I want right like he'll literally say that line in those movies and then this one they're like If you want what you want peter here you go and it makes him an asshole, right?

[02:24:02] And he has to learn like no, it's actually good to be humbled Um, but yes Mcu movies just don't get that at all. It took three movies to get there

[02:24:13] It is the thing I find most emotionally affecting at the end of no way home is the scene at the donut shop Which is not a perfect scene But the fact that he makes a very peter parker decision of like i'm gonna leave. Yeah, right

[02:24:24] I i'm not gonna rope her into this again as a spoiler for people In what has to be the most spoiled movie in the universe at this point? um But yes, this movie is still very much in touch with that

[02:24:37] Yeah, and it's still fundamentally just about a couple of kids from queens. Yeah, basically Well, yeah, harry's not from queens is he I guess he's from manhattan. He's from manhattan that kid's from manhattan

[02:24:46] He's from manhattan. He lives in like dakota or whatever. I don't know where they live Yeah We gotta be done jamelle Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Thank you. Jamal. This is my first episode of your show

[02:24:58] When I have not been talking about something very serious serious or heavy because you did rosewood you did Ali right forest gump, I guess is the closest to silliness but of course touched on every part of america It's a lot of the

[02:25:13] Sins of 20th century america. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but so next year is five timers. All right. All right So yeah, what your next appearance has to be has to be worthy of the five timers club or doesn't could be Whatever like yeah, that's an earnest right? Yeah

[02:25:30] That's the best one. Right? Okay. Yeah, that's the best one. Absolutely ben. Do you agree? That's tough. I have a soft slate for camp That one's pretty good too. Do you remember the year that was the theme at the mackala earnest goes to camp?

[02:25:42] Nobody understood the assignment. They didn't understand the assignment. They didn't understand Just in a gown I don't get this she's not going to cam this yesterday's was the gilded age Yeah, which was sort of like I guess people thought the gilded age was a good thing, right?

[02:25:55] Right. I don't know what that was if I were invited I would have gone as a sharecropper. Yeah Well, I would have gone I would have gone wearing a gilded age box set dvd with carrie coon's face on it. I don't know

[02:26:09] I was gonna say i'm checking my notes here. The theme next year for the mackala is barry Tokyo vice what nobody even likes that show? um, jamelle unclear and present danger

[02:26:23] Uh, yeah, right. I have I have a movie podcast myself. It's my friend. John gans. It's called unclear and present danger we talked about the Political and military theology of the 1990s and what they say about the politics of that decade

[02:26:34] Um, and we more or less watch the movie like we watch like, you know tbs sunday night movies And a clear and present danger, you know, it's right there in the title one of those movies and we talk about them

[02:26:45] Our last episode our most recent one was on oliver stone's jfk a buck wild movie. We're very chill A popcorn flick A movie I love but is is probably responsible for poisoning the brains of that's the thing you're like, this is so irresponsible

[02:27:01] I'm, very entertained right now. Yes. Yeah, the best way I can describe watching jfk if you've never seen it is it is like, uh, Getting incredibly high and then like totally vibing and then once you come down from it, you're just like oh I have

[02:27:16] I have ingested something dangerous to my health. Yes, right, right. Yeah, right I never it's yeah, it's like a four loco with cocaine Someone needs to be like watching oliver stone 100 like monitoring constantly to make sure he doesn't make a fucking q anon movie. Oh god. I mean

[02:27:33] It's a q anon movie, but i'm saying literally But you're right that jfk is the sort of start of that where it's like you don't know it's all connected Right, right, right like q anon videos are pulling a lot from the jfk

[02:27:45] Monologuing for 17 minutes about the deep state the best part of the movie. It is incredible. It is incredible Um, so uh, that's the that's the podcast. I hope you uh, listen to it

[02:27:53] You can do you have a patreon am I creating a patreon? Um that I I actually you were considering a patreon I cannot talk about it for reasons related to my day job. Yes

[02:28:02] Um, uh in my day job is i'm a new york times columnist and my column usually shows up every tuesday and every friday Always a great read always happy to get your newsletter as well I saw blankie refer to you recently as the most correct man in america

[02:28:14] After hearing you talk about spider-man 3 I couldn't agree more. Thank you so much griffin too powerful though What if what if you go all emo and you start doing dances down the street? I'm so correct You're drunk with power All right. Yes. Yes. Uh

[02:28:29] That was spider-man 3. Mm-hmm tune in next week for Oh, no, no, the next week's good. It's a good one. I thought next week was oz but no Of course is a good one in between. I'm gonna say the same mistake tune in next for

[02:28:43] Uh tune next week for uh, uh drag me to hell. Yeah with jamie loftus and caitlin durante of the bechdel cast Returning to the show Uh together for the first time. Yeah, uh except on their pockets where they're always together. Sure Uh first time on this show. Uh

[02:28:59] And our patreon of course patreon.com slash blank check Yeah, where we're doing the batman the not all batman ben's going to sleep Which we've been talking about a lot in this episode as a comparison point because we recorded it yesterday

[02:29:09] Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate review and subscribe Thank you to marie barty for our social media aj mckinnon and alex barron for our editing jj birch for our research This was the longest dossier he ever wrote There's just so much on his mind. He's

[02:29:24] on one Thank you to lay montgomery in the great american novel for our theme song joe bowen and pat reynolds for our artwork Go to blankcheckpod.com for links to a lot of real nerdy shit And as always the dancing is good Dancing's good

[02:29:48] So there's there's a scene where sandman turns into a sandcastle, right? That seems good where for his daughter or whatever Yeah, so it's after spider-man turns him into mud and when he reconstitutes He's like sandman's so silly. So he's not

[02:30:02] I'm, sorry. He's very serious. Yeah, he turns into wet sand. He's a mud man and then he tries to sand as fucking cool as hell