Steve Jobs with Olivia Craighead

[00:00:01] Blank Check with Griffin and David, Blank Check with Griffin and David Don't know what to say or to expect All you need to know is that the name of the show is Blank Check I came here because you're gonna get killed. Your computer is gonna fail.

[00:00:26] You got a college and university advisory board telling you they need a powerful workstation for 2-3 thousand. You price next at $6500 and that doesn't include the optional $3000 hard drive, which people discover isn't optional

[00:00:39] because the optical disk is too weak to do anything and the $2500 laser printer brings the total to $12000. And in the entire world you're the only person that cares that it's housed in a perfect cube. You're gonna get killed.

[00:00:54] And I came here to stand next to you. Well that happens because that's what friends do. That's what men do. I don't need your pass. We go back so don't talk to me like I'm other people.

[00:01:04] I'm the only one that knows that this guy here is someone you invented. And I'm standing by you because that perfect cube that does nothing is about to be the single biggest failure in the history of podcasting. Tell me something else I don't know.

[00:01:22] You added one extra word. What's that? It's just tell me something. Oh no, you did. You got it perfect. I got it perfect. You got it perfect. It's definitely it.

[00:01:28] You got it perfect. I didn't cue David the line. I wanted to see if he would know the response. I mean but you didn't even need my response. You had it. No, but it's a nice little punchline. Yeah, sure.

[00:01:38] Should I put podcast in from the beginning maybe instead of every time he says the word computer? Or a variation thereof? No, I think you nailed it. Yeah, you did great.

[00:01:48] I don't know if you noticed this. I've been trending towards quotes that make it sound like our podcast is terrible. Yeah, you like to do that. Because I just think why not get it out of the way?

[00:01:58] I'm kind of surprised you didn't go, I'm going to put a thousand podcasts in your pocket. So I thought you might do that because that is the, almost the most derided quote from this movie in a way. Incorrectly. Our guess is correct that it is incorrectly derided.

[00:02:13] We're going to get to it. Sure. We're going to get to everything. We're not going to leave one stone unturned my friend. Can I just?

[00:02:21] But I'm trying to think of other, you know, sitters that you could have. That was a good one. I'm trying to think of what else.

[00:02:26] I play the orchestra. I feel like that's one of the biggest exchanges, which comes right before this, but it doesn't, you can't, you can't slop podcasts in as clean. Well, it's like hosts play their instruments. I podcast the orchestra.

[00:02:37] I was thinking you could have done when Lisa is talking, think different. You're asking people to think differently. You could have said that looks like Judy Jetson's Easy Bake Podcast. That's a good burn. She kind of, she kind of kicks his ass there. She does.

[00:02:54] Yeah, she folds him like laundry. David. Recently we did our episode on Sunshine. I should say, I should say, I should say what this is. I should say what we're doing here. The single biggest failure in the history of modern podcasting.

[00:03:07] This is Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin. I'm David. It's a podcast about filmographies, directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. Sometimes those checks clear.

[00:03:22] Sometimes they bounce baby. This is an odd case of a movie very much still being a post Oscar blank check for Danny Boyle, despite coming off of two relative disappointments, an underperformer and an outright flop.

[00:03:37] This is a bit of a blank check, even though everyone involved in this movie knows that they were not the first choice. Yeah, I was about to say it's not his blank check. It's such an odd case. It's Sorkin's blank check.

[00:03:47] He got to do the movie his way. He did. He had plenty of ideas. He brought his own sensibility to it. But yeah, he was fast. But we're coming in knowing their bridesmaids and knowing that the public knows that that's the only thing.

[00:04:00] Well, I'm sure you agree with me. I think that was the problem. Yeah. And I rarely think people care about inside baseball stuff like that.

[00:04:08] But I do think this movie came out and it was kind of like, you know, this was actually going to be a big fucking movie star movie. Anyway, it's got Magneto in it. I don't know. Enjoy.

[00:04:19] Look, Trance is just an odd duck in the middle of the two. I have not seen Trance. It's a weird one. Olivia? Check it out. I might even say Required Review. Might even say Must See. I might even say we're giving it.

[00:04:33] What's our new, we need a new must see title. The blanky seal of approval. Yeah. No, I think you'll appreciate its chaotic nature if nothing else. And it's short. It's short. Is that the selling point? That it's short and chaotic? McAvoy. Well, now I am short. Rosaria Dawson.

[00:04:52] Okay. Vincent Cassell. Yeah. Sure. They're all horny. They're all crazy. They're all doing twists. It's got an all star cast and a distinct lack of pubic hair, which is a really good combination for a modern thriller.

[00:05:05] And it's not the kind of thing you would think matters crucially to the plot. But in Trance, it does. Almost nothing has mattered more to any plot. But anyway, anyway, yes. All of this is a Trance odd duck in the middle. Right. But coming off of Slumdog Millionaire.

[00:05:22] You won best picture for Slumdog Millionaire. For a fucking international blockbuster. Right. And then everyone's like Danny Bull. He's going to be able to keep delivering these fucking Oscar triumphs. These accessible, broad, emotional Oscar triumphs.

[00:05:36] He does two movies in a row that on paper felt like they should have worked. And in both cases, they kind of got fucked by narratives outside of their control. Yes.

[00:05:44] I mean, I think at the end of the day, everyone involved in 127 Hours can be like, look, we got a best picture nomination. Absolutely. It was a success.

[00:05:52] There was just that moment where, as is often the case with blank check filmmakers, when a movie becomes such an unexpected blockbuster, people go, I guess this guy has the formula now. He's got the magic recipe.

[00:06:03] If he could turn Slumdog Millionaire into like a $400 million success, he'll make the fucking arm in a cave movie work. Yeah. This will be a hit. I forgot that Slumdog Millionaire was like that big of a movie. Humongous. Huge. It was everywhere.

[00:06:18] I mean, when Everything Everywhere won, my editor asked me at the Atlanta where I work, you know, what was the last film that was this big a hit? And I immediately knew the answer because we're doing this podcast. Right. Slumdog Millionaire. Yeah.

[00:06:32] I mean, it was a genuine hit. And Slumdog Millionaire made more than twice as much as Everything Everywhere, all at once domestically and like three times as much worldwide, four times as much. Yeah. I mean, King's Speech also did quite well. Slumdog was better. Yeah.

[00:06:49] But you know, but no, Slumdog. But those were the last two that were like big. And obviously King's Speech was a very successful post Oscar type. But this is this thing we've been talking about.

[00:06:59] I mean, examining the oddness of Slumdog, a thing that feels like it couldn't totally happen on that scale anymore, that there are movies that become hits because of the Oscar campaign. Yeah. Like Everything Everywhere, all at once. Right.

[00:07:13] That's the final victory lap for a movie that was already a hit. And these were movies that like caught on. The Oscar buzz made them big. They continued to play big. They played big for months after winning.

[00:07:24] All this to say, this is a miniseries on the films of Danny Boyle. It is called Trainspot Casting. Yeah. Yeah. You literally called it something else in our last episode. My brain's been a little fried. Two episodes ago, actually. Yes.

[00:07:38] I called it Slumpud Million Cast, which was an alternate name. 127 Hours does okay, gets a Best Picture nom. Trance, that comes out and everyone's like, let's just, hey, I didn't see it. You didn't see it? Let's just forget about it. Yeah.

[00:07:50] And look, it does help him that like everyone gets one of those, right? Absolutely. And everyone loved the Olympic ceremony. It's like, well, he was doing double duty. He was doing both at the same time.

[00:07:59] That was the Fox Searchlight deal that was post Slumdog anything you want under $40 million immediate greenlight. So he does two of those. One of them does okay. One of them does horrifically. But it's like Trance didn't because Trance wasn't expensive. Right.

[00:08:15] It couldn't be what it wasn't a failure. I don't think it was held against him. Yeah. But it's not like a noxious bomb. It's more just a kind of like, let's just agree. We're just going to put that one in a box.

[00:08:23] I don't think it sticks to him. But I also think Fox Searchlight is like maybe not anything. Maybe you have to explain the movie to us before he gives you the money. He has yet to work with them again. Yeah. He makes this for Universal.

[00:08:37] Of course, this was a Sony project, as I'm sure we will discuss. But of course, this was distributed by the good folks at the spinning globe. Yes. Yes. And then T2 Trainspotting is Sony as well. Although obviously that's like film four. Yeah.

[00:08:52] And then yesterday he went right back to the spinning globe. Right. And he was almost always a Fox guy in one way or another up until this point. Yeah. Yeah. Which also maybe accounts for his slowdown of his career. Like Fox really seemed to... Slow down millionaire. Well...

[00:09:07] Hey. Thank you. Open the doors wide for him. Today we're talking Steve Jobs. Yep. Our guest today. Returning to the show for the fourth? Maybe. Maybe fifth. Maybe fifth. This is the question. Wait a second. Rachel getting married. Rachel getting married. To love the game. Flight. Flight.

[00:09:26] Mikey and Nicky. Fire! Wow. Oh, oh, oh. Wow. Da da da da da da. I actually... Okay. We did it, Joe. Here's the deal. Yeah. Hang my jersey up in the rafters. You're out? Because this is the only other movie I'd ever want to talk about. Wow.

[00:09:44] No, that's not true. But this is, I think... Yeah. Despite being helmed by two non-Americans, one of the great American films. Very true. This is like all I've ever wanted to talk about on this show. Wow. And now we're here and we're doing it. Yeah. Thank God.

[00:10:01] And can I tell you a funny story? Please. Which is that many, many... We love funny stories. It's kind of a funny story. It's kind of a funny story starring Zach Galifianakis. Anyone else think they were teasing that they're going to do a Boat and Fleck miniseries next?

[00:10:12] David said kind of a funny story and then they all paused. Does anyone else think... It would fit in really well. It would fit in really well. It's only an eight episode. I like us jumping on the Doe Boys bandwagon of outright mocking our listeners. I know.

[00:10:22] I'm trying to find the right... What a stupid voice. Because Wykes has the best stupid listener voice. Wykes has the, I don't like that they did that. Yeah, like this, yeah. And then Scott on podcast The Ride has started a really good one now.

[00:10:31] He's like, actually, I love the trees they put in the theme park. And I'm like, I got to find our annoying guy voice. Anyway, sorry. Give us a funny story. Okay. So many years ago, I was walking down the street in the East Village and my friend,

[00:10:45] I was on my way to my friend's apartment and he called me and he said, can you look into the window of Whitman's, this restaurant on 7th Street, and see who is in there. You'll see him. He's famous, but I don't know who he is.

[00:10:57] I look in and immediately I'm like, it's Danny Boyle. And he's eating a hamburger. Wait a second. Years after that, Wait a second. I called in to the burger hotline. What? And I said, I one time saw Danny Boyle eating a burger. And now years after that,

[00:11:18] You can finally get it on the air. Here I am. I think it got on the air is the thing. Is this before we knew you? Yes, before when I was simply a fan. My brother texted me and was like, did you call into, what was it called?

[00:11:30] The burger report? The burger report. Okay. My brother texted me. Shout out to your brother. Great follower on the Wonderbox. And he was like, did you call in? And I was like, yeah, I think a while ago. And he was like, well, I just heard it.

[00:11:40] Cause I guess I wasn't sticking around. So we must've played it. I think you did. Did we unknowingly play Olivia? You did. Oh my God. Olivia, I regret to inform you. You are correct. This is your last episode. No. It's full circle. It's full circle.

[00:11:54] That's kind of the thing. How does it get fucking better than this? How could you get better than this? Make new friends, but keep the old. Some are meant to be others. I don't know why I did that.

[00:12:06] I think this is the first time someone has gone from burger reporter to guest. And unknowingly only finding on the fifth appearance as it all ties in back together. And how did Danny look? He looked great. The burger at Whitman's is great. Normal size nog? No.

[00:12:23] He looks like James and the giant peach. He looks like little samosas. Whitman's was the place that did the juicy Lucy, right? They also do the peanut butter on the burger. It's one of the few places you can get peanut butter. It's still there. I've been there.

[00:12:36] Good shit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's good shit. Juicy Lucy, please. David's getting over strep throat. I'm off to direct Steve Jobs. David is getting over strep throat. I sure am. And Olivia was saying he sounds more NPR today because there's a little bit of gravel.

[00:12:52] You were also saying kind of Wolfman jacket. Yeah, a little late night. And I said, shwitty balls. David sounded for shwitty balls. Yeah. We should though. We'll replay. Yeah, absolutely. We'll find it. The burger report at the end of this episode. Okay. I might sound totally different.

[00:13:10] I don't remember when I sent it in. Oh my God. Hi guys. Yeah, literally I might sound like that. I think I was in college. I think I was truly like a baby. You were a baby. I was a baby. That is amazing. Steve Jobs is our film.

[00:13:29] I can't remember when we first admitted to each other that, not that this is some dark secret, but when we first agreed that we both loved the movie Steve Jobs. Yeah, it's kind of something that's like spoken about in dark rooms almost. Certainly in those early years.

[00:13:44] I think it's like sort of come around. Now? It's like 10 degrees below like what Master and Commander is now. Master and Commander has entered some, that's like stadium tours.

[00:13:55] But I think in 20 years, however long it's been since Master and Commander, I think Steve Jobs will have a hive. Since Master and Commander? Yeah, 2003. Yes, I think you're right.

[00:14:06] I think in 2035 as the nice warm Atlantic Ocean is lapping in our faces or whatever's going on by then. You'll still be writing for The Atlantic. Oh boy. I got a new boss. Jesus. I do find that this film's esteem has only grown.

[00:14:25] Now that's partly because when it came out, it was received kind of tepidly and was perceived as a disappointment. Can I get this out of the way? Yeah, you didn't like it. Absolutely not. You thought it was boring. I thought it was stinky poo poo.

[00:14:39] I don't think I thought it was boring. Did you? Okay. I remember you just kind of being like, boring. No. No. No. That was not my take. Fuck off. No, I was kind of, it was a sorkin breaking point for me. Oh really?

[00:14:58] It was a like, I can't abide by this anymore. This is all of my- He's out of control. Yeah. Sure, sure, sure. Well looking back at that now- Well, yes. Look, certainly- We have to, okay. Didn't know how good we had it. Yeah, exactly.

[00:15:11] In a lot of ways. This is kind of like a great sorkin piece to me, especially with the context of what happens after this. I agree, and I think I also was perhaps like too many other people caught up on the like,

[00:15:24] fuck but imagine the fucking version with Bale and Fincher. You know? Or like imagine if Ridley Scott did this. Imagine if David's ex- Can I, yeah, can I say a version with Bale would not be as good as this one.

[00:15:39] A version with DiCaprio I think would be bad. Probably. I think DiCaprio would have- It's one of those things where you're kind of like, oh look, I'd pay to see what that looks like as long as it doesn't take my movie away. Sure.

[00:15:52] But I can't imagine that being a good idea. No. I remember my big take being at the time that I wish Danny Boyle and Ridley Scott had swapped projects and Danny Boyle had done The Martian and Ridley Scott had done this. That's crazy. Those are two amazing movies.

[00:16:05] That was my take at the time. This is a bad take. And I liked The Martian. The Martian's good. But the movie comes out in the first year of us doing this podcast. We disagreed on it over the years. Your opinion of this film has only grown.

[00:16:17] That's the thing. I've never rewatched it. I liked this film a lot. Yes. But I too had shame. And in my heart. Yes. And I, you know, I think I was probably putting it more like sort of an eight out of ten or whatever.

[00:16:32] Like I thought it was good but I was kind of in my head like I can't think that that's the best. The sort of failed Steve Jobs biopic. How embarrassing and middle-browed for me to think Danny Boyle. And, you know, you have the oh Fincher.

[00:16:45] Oh, what would he have done? Oh, it's so scary. It never would have been mean. Very, very good. Yes, that's what that movie needs. And then I watched it again. I remember I took my then girlfriend, now my ex-girlfriend, a.k.a. my wife. That's John Langey's show.

[00:17:03] And then he, of course, split up with his wife. Less funny part of the show. And I remember I took Forky to see it and I walked out of that, you know, so I first saw it at the New York Film Festival. And I was like, oh yeah.

[00:17:19] And then I took it, saw Forky, took it to Forky and she was like, that sucked. And I was like, I think I liked it more. That was my kind of opinion and the face you made of just like, I was exhausted by this thing. No thank you.

[00:17:34] This wore me down. I watched it again with her last night. I was like, remember you saw this with me in the theater? And she was like, no memory of that whatsoever. Do not remember that. You are lying. And I'm like, no, no.

[00:17:45] We went to the Regal Court Street. We saw it. Watched it with her, sobbed through the whole movie because that's what it does to me now. And she was like more positive on it maybe but was also like shopping on her laptop for most of it.

[00:17:58] Eight years of doing this show. You've had this growing relationship with it and then we make friends. We have recurring guests on the show like Olivia, like Alex Ross-Perry. There are people who are entering our orbits who are like secretly, I love this too.

[00:18:12] I think it's a masterpiece. So I've just – I have not – I've let go of my opinion outside of I didn't like it at the time in preparing to watch this.

[00:18:24] And then watched it last night and was like, what was the moment where I started to turn on this watching in theaters? I remember going into it incredibly excited. Sure. And then my enthusiasm – Because we were all pretty pro Sorkin because of Social Network and Moneyball. Right.

[00:18:40] We were all kind of like he's back. Now the newsroom is out there and we were all kind of being like, wow. The newsroom was hard. As a Sorkinista, I did watch every episode of the newsroom.

[00:18:49] The thing about the newsroom is Sorkin himself is like, eh, that show's a mess. He's kind of – he's like I swung hard in a mist, which is cool of him. Jeff Daniels is like best role I ever had. And it's like, all right, Jeff.

[00:19:00] Of course he thinks that. He's the center. I gave a big monologue. He gets to do so much. But I – yes, I think – I'm watching it going, huh, I'm enjoying this. Where did it lose me? Sure, sure, sure. What's the moment I start to turn on this thing?

[00:19:15] Okay. The only moment where I really felt it started to push back on me was fucking A Thousand Songs in Your Pocket. Oh, God. It's so good. That was so stuck in my craw from when I saw it the first time and I was like –

[00:19:30] I was enjoying everything so thoroughly that I was like, you know what? This line is going to play differently from this time. Now this movie is working for me. It's going to hit. And I'm not saying I flipped over my laptop.

[00:19:42] I'm not saying it turned the movie negative for me. But I did bump on it. Can I ask what about it is, like, sticking in your craw? Why don't people like it? Because I really – Let's just jump to the fucking end. I actually cannot understand.

[00:19:54] You already brought up the beginning which is why I think we need to say this. I really have watched this movie so many times. And I pretty much like everything else about this movie.

[00:20:00] And every time I watch it, though, we get to that scene and I'm sitting there and I'm like, how could you not like this? You're waiting for it, like, whatever – I'm waiting for it to click to me while people are like, this is so stupid. I think –

[00:20:13] I will let Griffin talk, but I do think people just sort of felt like too obvious. We don't need him to say that. We don't need – Like we know he's going to invent the iPod. He doesn't need to, you know, articulate that.

[00:20:23] I think that's a part of it for me. I think the larger part of it for me and perhaps this is a very, very pedantic complaint. Yeah, if I didn't really fit in pockets that well early on.

[00:20:35] Well, you had to swap shirts with someone who had the pocket that was the right size. No, I think it is the fact that he looks at her. He looks at the Walkman.

[00:20:45] He sort of like snaps his finger and points at her and then delivers it as what was then the final tagline we knew to sell the iPad. iPod. The iPod was a thousand songs in your pocket, right? Right. I think if he went, you know what?

[00:21:04] I'm going to make something so you can get rid of that stupid Walkman. I'm going to invent something small. I'll put a thousand songs in your pocket. Right.

[00:21:12] It would bump for me less than the fact that he looks at her and goes, I'm going to put a thousand songs in your pocket. And he just immediately first draft lands on the billboard. But that's what he's – That's like his whole thing. I know.

[00:21:24] But okay, it's two things though. One, of course, that is kind of his whole mystique. Yes. But two, he can only relate to his daughter through his own fucking inventions. I get that. It's so incredible and tragic. He can only – he only knows how to make promises.

[00:21:37] The only way he can reach her in this moment of absolute humanity. Like she's so distraught. He's like, what if I made a better fucking Walkman for you? But I like that. And you're just like, oh my god. Because it's also like – I am now sold on that.

[00:21:51] I don't like him saying literally verbatim, I'm going to put a thousand – Touch grass! Touch it! I do! Go fucking touch grass! It sucks! No, it doesn't! iPods are better! The other thing about that scene is that –

[00:22:03] This is why I was worried about having Strep for this recording. Is that he tries to relate to her the other way. He says, I want to read one of your essays right now as if she has it on the car.

[00:22:14] I'm glad that she doesn't go like, I'm yours, one. But he's trying to be a human for like two seconds and it doesn't work. And then the only way he can be like, I love you is to say this thing. And I understand that it's like too clean.

[00:22:26] I like it dramatically. I don't like the line. The whole movie is an Aaron Sorkin script. People are reciting like legal briefs to each other. It's insane. I have accepted all of this now. We're starting this off with a crazy energy.

[00:22:39] No, because look, when I saw it, I just went and I knew what the structure of this movie was. There had been so much shit with the Sony hack, the script bouncing around for so long. But also it had just been talked about.

[00:22:51] Sorkin was so good at selling himself where he's like, yes, it's a big unwieldy autobiography. I've summed it into three scenes. It's brilliant. Also, there was this thing – we're going to get into all of this, right?

[00:23:01] But there was this whole thing of just like Steve Jobs dies very suddenly, dramatically. It makes a huge impact culturally. And everyone goes, well, fuck, they got to make the Steve Jobs movie, right? Well, it wasn't just that he died.

[00:23:15] The book came out right around the same time. And it's like, well, this is going to be the thing. And suddenly like multiple – Who will play Steve Jobs? Multiple projects are popping up.

[00:23:24] But the whole promise, everyone I think went, well, Aaron Sorkin should write a Steve Jobs movie. Like it was just the immediate assumption from everyone of that's what would make sense. We all just love social network.

[00:23:34] What are the phone calls that Sorkin gets that he doesn't say yes to? Because I'm sure there are some. Because like that's the thing you always hear. It's the same with the fucking Chicago 7 movie was that Spielberg was just like, you know about the Chicago 7?

[00:23:48] And Sorkin's like, not really. A little bit. He's like, well, you should make a movie about it. That's Sorkin's thing with like all of his like real life stuff is that someone comes to him and is like – Because Sorkin's just a weirdo. Yeah.

[00:23:58] Someone like I think for the social network, the book proposal was going around and someone was like, you read this? Like you know anything about Facebook? And he was like, no. You never hear Sorkin being like, you know, I was in my Russian history phase.

[00:24:09] It's like I don't know what Aaron Sorkin does all day, but it's not like absorb things. Like people just sort of put stuff in front of him and he sort of like figures out the angle. I basically didn't know what Facebook was and the book didn't exist yet.

[00:24:21] I was writing the movie parallel to them writing the book. It was just the notion of this guy's in two lawsuits simultaneously. Right. Yeah. And he was like, well, that's my in and then I have to figure out what the fuck Facebook is.

[00:24:33] But the other thing is that he's just like, you know what? He did it because he's trying to get over a girl and everyone's like, well, I mean sure maybe there was some girl. Absolutely. And that's probably bullshit and he's like, well, I'm doing it.

[00:24:43] And you're like, well, that was a great idea by you. Yeah. And similarly look, he's using – the Steve Jobs movie, he's putting so much of the prism of him as a father and as a son.

[00:24:53] It's – well, there's three movies in a row that he writes that I call the Sorkin Dad Trilogy. Moneyball, This, Mollysky. They're all so clearly about – It's very him being like as the father of a daughter, like as a kind of fucked up guy.

[00:25:09] And also one of these guys who's basically like I would maybe be dead if I hadn't had this kid. Yeah. Like this – Even though I know I'm a flawed dad. For all my failings, this is the only thing that has even saved me to a degree.

[00:25:22] And he relates to these people. Yes. Billy Bean, Steve Jobs, Mollys dad. Kevin Costner. He relates to them in ways that are crucial to the success of those movies. Yeah. Like to their flaws. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, everyone – the public is basically like assuming this movie will exist.

[00:25:46] Well, obviously Fincher and Sorkin should just make the Steve Jobs movie. Well, right. It was because they'd made a tech movie together as well. Right. Yeah, sure. Right. And a movie that everyone loved that was a huge hit that was like a big Oscar player but

[00:26:00] ended up being an also ran outside of Sorkin winning the one major award for that movie. It wins editing and score. Won editing and score? Yeah. Sorkin didn't win, did he? Sorkin won screenplay for that. Sorkin won because he shouts out to his daughter.

[00:26:13] He's like, Roxy, go to bed. It starts the daughter trilogy. Yeah. He gives the speech for the daughter. Was King's Speech seen as original? Adapted. No. Oh, oh. King's Speech was original. You're right. Yeah. Yeah, that's right.

[00:26:27] Because I remember the King's Speech guy winning because he was a guy who'd had a stutter and he gave this whole like, that's why this mattered to me so much. Wasn't he also like 80 and it was his first screenplay? Yeah, he was like a really old guy.

[00:26:31] He was like, I don't know. I don't remember what he was like. It's never too late. Right. He did win. Okay. So, right. Yeah. It was the – I remember it was the score win for Social Network that was the most surprising

[00:26:43] because that felt like, well, if you fucking vibed with that, why are you asking for a Why are you assholes not giving a best picture? Like, you get it. Yeah. You like the score. The score is the weirdest part. Yeah. What a great movie that is.

[00:26:55] It just felt like an – oh, it's perfect. Yeah. It just felt like an obvious thing. Do you like Social Network? I – I – okay. Mark! I love the Social Network so much so that when I was a teenager, I owned it on DVD,

[00:27:07] would watch it on the family computer all the way through, started again with the commentary so I could listen to Fincher and Sorkin do their thing. I was on like Social Network Tumblr, which was kind of vibrant community in the day. Like, I am all in –

[00:27:22] Tumblr about Facebook? Yeah, Tumblr about Facebook, but Tumblr specifically about Mark and Eduardo and like – and Andrew and Jesse because they had kind of a lot of chemistry during their press tour. So, yeah, I love that movie. I think Andrew Garfield could have chemistry with a paper bag.

[00:27:38] That's just good. He really kind of seems like his vibe. Yeah. I think if I said I love that movie and I love David Fincher movies, I think he would have made a completely different movie. Yeah, look, I will see any David Fincher movie. Yeah.

[00:27:50] I would see David Fincher's Steve Jobs, but I don't think it would be the movie I love. One could say that, sure. We love the Finchman. We do love the Finchman. Yeah. We're just doing doughboys bits at the top of our podcast. We're just doing doughboys bits.

[00:27:58] Hold them like poetry. Yep. But as you say, okay, the public is like, Sorkin and Fincher get together. We have the movie in our mind's eye. Now where's – Bale was the – where's Bale? Bale had just won the Oscar. He's Batman, I suppose, as well.

[00:28:12] The Batman run has ended and he's won an Academy Award. Right. So he's exited the what don't you fucking understand period of his life. Yes. And has entered the I'm getting nominated for Oscars left and right. Right. I'm now seen as kind of like an A-tier actor. Yes.

[00:28:30] Right. Respectable prestige actor. It seemed like he doesn't want to go back to franchise shit. He's going to do serious movies. In fact, let me start on the dust. And there's a bit of resemblance between him and Steve Jobs. Yes.

[00:28:41] So the whole thing is like Kutcher kind of looks like young Steve Jobs, which of course is why – and we can touch on Kutcher. We can touch on him. I had the ambition of watching the Kutcher movie in preparation for this and I did not. I did too.

[00:28:54] I watched the trailer, which does feature a Macklemore needle drop and about three different shots of Kutcher letting out like a primal scream. Yeah. And I was like, I get it. But that is a – and I have seen it but I haven't seen it.

[00:29:05] Like that is a much more straightforward like let's play it. That is a much more straightforward like let's bottle this whole life up, right? Like we'll just – greatest hits. I think I was listening to Sorkin talk about something

[00:29:15] and he said that that is the exact movie he didn't want to make. The movie that like starts with a little boy at the electronics store. Kind of cradle to grave. Yeah, exactly. And he was like, why would I want to make that movie?

[00:29:26] But also it's like he dies. People start circulating the photos of young Steve Jobs and people are like, oh, he looks like Ashton Kutcher and you're like this one time period. This one time period with this one haircut. That really is all it is. Right.

[00:29:38] The thing with Bale – the thing with anyone is like, I don't know, just cut their hair, put them in a turtleneck. They kind of put some glasses on and they kind of start to look like Steve Jobs. He's like, you know. Yeah.

[00:29:48] You know, he didn't have like a tattoo on his face or something. He's like a somewhat generic looking guy. Right. Bale's got a pretty, you know, straightforward Anglo-Saxon face. Yeah. So September 28th, 2001. 2001-1. Okay. 2011. Okay. This is before Steve Jobs dies. Okay.

[00:30:07] Sony CEO Michael Linton and producer Mark Gordon are given the chance to read Walter Isaacson's biography of Steve Jobs, which is about to come out in a month. What month did you say this was? September 2011. Okay. So this is the same year that Social Network loses the Oscars.

[00:30:22] That's true. Yes, exactly, exactly. They read this book. Has anyone in the room read Walter Isaacson's Steve Jobs? No. David raises his hand. How is it? It's great. It's a 650-page book, but they sit down and they read it in his agency.

[00:30:37] They call Amy Pascal and she buys the rights. $1 million up front, $2 million more if the project gets made. So a hefty commitment from Sony Pictures. Now basically everyone had known that Jobs' health had been up and down for years

[00:30:55] because you would see at the keynotes he'd come out. He looked skinny. Right, and then they'd be like, he's on the mend. And then he'd show up for the next one and he'd be skeletal and whatever.

[00:31:02] That book was very much him sort of trying to get his legacy put on record while he still had the time. And gave Isaacson an incredible amount of access, essentially knowing that he was possibly going to die. So even reading that book a month before he dies,

[00:31:17] they're basically seeing like, oh, this guy's about to go. This is going to be the time to strike and do the definitive thing. Obviously it's not like—the book was always going to come out October. Sure.

[00:31:27] But so it was accidental that it came out right after he died. Right. I think things got worse faster than people thought. Yeah, well it was pancreatic cancer and he didn't seek normal treatment for it. It was actually a special kind of cancer.

[00:31:39] It was treatable. It doesn't matter. You can read about it in the book. Yes. So then they decide, let's bring in a bunch of really chill, normal people. Scott Rudin and Aaron Sorkin. And Rudin and Sorkin are like long time pals.

[00:31:54] They worked—obviously Rudin produces the social network. Yeah. In between screaming at interns and throwing ashtrays or whatever he did. Was that the first one though? Is that the first Rudin-Sorkin thing? Well, it certainly wasn't the last because Rudin also did To Kill a Mockingbird on Broadway.

[00:32:10] He sure did. This is the insane thing is the reason why To Kill a Mockingbird closed, or rather didn't reopen after being the most successful straight play in the history of Broadway— It was very successful.

[00:32:24] —is because basically Sorkin was like, you cannot be making money off this show. You need to take your name off of it. And he was like, fuck, you can't fire me. I quit. And then the show went down with me.

[00:32:35] He held the show hostage and Sorkin was like, I refuse to reopen it if Rudin's attached. Yeah, well Scott Rudin's an asshole. He can fucking come at me if he wants to argue that point. Yeah, just clear all the phones out of the room before he does.

[00:32:48] Seriously. Definitely no heavy ashtrays. No. Or was that Weinstein? Someone threw ashtrays. I think Weinstein was an ashtray. I don't know. They're all bad people. Everyone's bad. Sorkin, Olivia, as you say, reads the book but is like, I don't want to do a cradle-to-grave thing.

[00:33:00] I want to do something else. He has this sort of play-like construct in his head, the three acts. It's three product launches. It's three backstage— Steve Jobs needs to talk to everyone he's ever known his entire life before he announces a new product. Yes, it's the Warcard approach.

[00:33:17] Five million dollars is what he collects for this screenplay. He actually reduced that salary later to try and get the movie made. But they're paying him a handsome fee for a screenplay. Basically, it's the moment where everyone wants him to do it.

[00:33:34] He knows he can name his price. And once again, he's like, I didn't really know anything about Steve Jobs. I knew the bullet points of that guy's life like everybody else. The book is new to me.

[00:33:44] What's funny also about him is that after the movie is made, he's like, I still don't really get it. He's like, I don't know. He's always like, rectangles with rounded corners. Right. Okay. Sure. But he had to figure out how—why this man was a god.

[00:33:59] Yeah. Which is what's so amazing about the movie. But yes, I think what he's relating to in this book, though, what a flawed person, bundle of contradictions,

[00:34:08] why does he behave in ways that don't make sense but he wants everything he makes to be perfect and simple and make total sense. Right. And hyper fixates on the how could this guy deny his parentage of this girl for this long?

[00:34:21] It is the craziest thing about Steve Jobs. A thing that feels unfathomable to me, a father of a daughter. Sure. It becomes like I need to interrogate this. As father of daughter. As father of daughter.

[00:34:30] But it also—it is the craziest—it's just you're just like, he's the richest man alive. How could he possibly, you know? But it's also—it's wild how much it was sort of discussed out in the open.

[00:34:40] It wasn't one of these things where it's like, oh, a Lysa Schwarzenegger love child now being acknowledged for the first time at the age of 20. It's like, the girls, two, three, four, five, it's being written about. This is part of his narrative the entire time of The Rise.

[00:34:53] Everyone except for him is like, that is your daughter. Right. It's obvious. We all see it. Yeah. We all know Chris-Anne. Right. What are you talking about? It's maybe the most devastating part of this movie is just people greeting Chris-Anne. When Andy is like, hi! Yeah.

[00:35:11] He's like, we're friends separate from you. Right. Has anyone read Lisa Brennan Jobs' book Small Fry? No. I'm sure no one has. I highly recommend it. It's a great book.

[00:35:22] And it's a book she wrote about her life and gives lots more context on Steve Jobs for job sets like me. When was that written? Maybe—when did that get published? Like maybe 2017? Okay. So after this. 2018.

[00:35:39] But Sorkin does meet with Lisa and talks with her, which Walter Isaacson didn't even get to do. Who wrote the biography. Sure. So, you know, he clearly identifies on like, this is going to be the center of my movie. Right? He calls her the hero of the movie.

[00:35:55] She is. Yeah. The movie doesn't work without that at all. Or else it's just wandering around. 100%. I assume the Kutcher movie deals with it vaguely. The trailer doesn't. That's all I can tell you for sure. But like— The trailer doesn't touch it.

[00:36:13] But like, there's so many biographies that would hand wave that simply because it's too complicated. Where they're like, well we have to explain—he's got to make an iPad now. Classic Hollywood, make someone too unsympathetic. Yeah, right. Right. That's unforgivable behavior.

[00:36:29] He talks to John Scully, character Jeff Daniels. Who Sorkin says has practically been in hiding since he got fired from Apple, but he talked to me. He talks to Joanna Hoffman, the character that Kate Winslet plays.

[00:36:41] He talks to Steve Wozniak, of course, who is this lovely bear of a man, big lovely man. But Sorkin says like, you do get the sense from him. Like he was still—he nursed some anger over going all the way back.

[00:37:01] Lisa and Chrisanne are characters in that movie. I don't know to what degree. I think it has to at least. You have to touch on it. But I think they are much less. Because there has to be much more of him looking at a pod.

[00:37:13] There's probably stuff about Pixar in that movie. Yeah, right. It's got everything in it, right? Yeah. What if the phone— Tomato computer? Try Apple. I just—look, it's not fair. And I don't even know if it's accurate.

[00:37:28] But it is a scathing tweet that has never left my mind. When that movie was coming out, I just remember someone tweeting, Ashton Kutcher, Steve Jobs, so an idiot playing a genius. Sounds good. I mean—and that was like at the height of Ashton Kutcher's bozo phase. Yes.

[00:37:49] When he was like the first celebrity on Twitter. Yeah, that was his whole thing. And now he's just like a venture capitalist. Right, like a full-on venture capitalist. Who's also in like— Who's like married to Mila Kunis. Married to Mila Kunis in that weird Reese Witherspoon rom-com.

[00:38:01] Oh, God. Yeah, that kind of came and went, didn't it? There is a bizarre Rolling Stone profile on Ashton Kutcher recently that talks about like, It's been a while since you thought about Ashton Kutcher, huh? The screens, we've been missing him actively. And I'm like— No.

[00:38:15] He didn't make a movie in three years. It was a pandemic. I haven't seen some of my best friends in three years. It's not like— I just love the idea. The Hollywood's like, What is it? What's the spark we're missing?

[00:38:24] But they were treating it like he was Gene Hackman. And they were like, Everyone's been waiting for him to return. And he's returning. He used to be— Yeah, he's returning with a shitty Netflix movie. And returning? He's returning in a big way.

[00:38:34] Appearing in one episode of that 90s show and a Netflix movie that's gonna be huge and definitely remembered for more than four hours. He was also on that Netflix show. He had his act in The Ranch. That was like years. They were like, It's been so long.

[00:38:48] He did fucking 100 episodes of The Ranch. A show that survived— Nobody's watched The Ranch. Danny Masterson getting canceled. They recast with Dax Shepard. What are you doing? Did another 45 episodes. They replaced him with Dax Shepard? Yeah. He just plopped Shepard in there? Yeah, the cast of that show.

[00:39:04] How did that guy even walk through the doors of The Ranch? His arms are so swole. Do you know who the parents are on that show? I don't. Neither of you know who the parents— I know nothing about The Ranch. I refuse to engage with The Ranch.

[00:39:15] So The Ranch started, obviously, Kutcher Masterson became Kutcher and Dax Shepard. Who are the two elder statesmen on that show? In every fucking episode, 100 episodes of The Ranch? I don't know! Multicam sitcom? Sam Elliott? Deborah Winger. Deborah Winger. Deborah Winger. Good for her for getting a check.

[00:39:36] Getting that Netflix money. Get it while you can. How are you doing, Deborah? I can't do Sam Elliott right now, even with my voice like this. Sorkin also reveals he had talked to Steve Jobs three times in his life. One, Steve Jobs called him to say

[00:39:47] he liked a West Wing episode. Do you know which one? He did not reveal. I'd love to know. Maybe one day. I have interviewed Aaron Sorkin, but I forgot to ask him which episode of The West Wing Steve Jobs liked.

[00:39:58] I bet it's the one where Josh starts chatting with people. Classic episode. Lemon Lime. Two, he asked him to come to Pixar. He wanted Aaron Sorkin to write a Pixar script. Oh yes, I do know that. For an animated movie? I mean, one would hope.

[00:40:13] I mean, I'd watch it. Sorkin, come on. Children shouldn't have to deal with that. And three, he was like, I'm writing a commencement speech, can you brush up? I mean, Steve Jobs is probably just at that scale of celebrity at that point.

[00:40:27] I'll just call the most famous writers. Anyway, he's very satisfied with the script. He delivers the script. This is the whole thing with this movie was that everyone was kind of like, there's this great script. You know, once the script was done, it was just kind of like,

[00:40:43] it's got to be made. And he got out of his system pretty quickly. Like it was not a tortured birth. And people were like, this thing is good. It's a bold approach, but it reads. And then... Then trouble hits, quote unquote, in myriad forms.

[00:40:59] Well, the obvious thought is, Fincher should be the number one choice to direct this movie. Fincher, as is his way, every time he comes onto a project, basically reads the script and goes, there is no way I could make this movie for a penny less than $80 million.

[00:41:12] $80 is cheap for him. For whatever. Yeah, but that's the point, right? Like even social network, they were like, this is a movie we have budgeted at 20. And he's like, I can do it for 65. And they're like 65. And he's like, well, because your cobblestones cost this much

[00:41:26] at Harvard, I would shoot this in this way. To his credit, he's one of these guys where like he apparently can go through like word by word of the script and explain every single cost to you. And he's like, I know how it works.

[00:41:35] I'm not going to waste any money. I save money in certain ways, but I refuse to have things be shitty. I refuse to make compromises. This is how much it will cost to the penny. So he goes to them and is like, here's this, right?

[00:41:46] And this is coming at a moment where there's a bit of a belt tightening on auteurs in Hollywood in general. Fincher, who was coming off of a couple hits after a lifetime of having movies that like... You mean Button and Social because he's made another movie

[00:42:01] since then that has disappointed. Right. So then everyone's like, well, and then fucking Dragon Tattoo is going to be massive and it's going to be a franchise. And it did okay. It did okay. Cost a lot of money. It is, of course, incredible.

[00:42:14] It has one of the best trailers of all time. It also has one of the best endings of all time. But one of those things... But at the moment, it was perceived as a disappointment. Most filmmakers probably would have agreed to make that movie for $50 million,

[00:42:28] you know, or something $60. And he was like, there is no way to make this for less than $110 or whatever. Well, let me give you some details. Now, this film's eventual budget was $30 million. Steve Jobs. Steve Jobs. I'm talking Dragon Tattoo. Oh, sure, Dragon Tattoo. I'm saying Dragon Tattoo

[00:42:42] was then seen as less successful because it had a Fincher-sized budget relative to expectations. So now they're like, maybe we don't let Fincher do everything he wants. Well, there's some other stuff, though. Yeah. There's Cleopatra. Exactly. Yes. Okay, so Fincher and Amy Pascal hate each other. Yes.

[00:42:58] Because of all the money that's being spent on these Sony movies. But Pascal wants him working on Angelina Jolie's Cleopatra. Stop trying to make Cleopatra movies. Stop it! We're here 10 years later and we're still on this thing. Any time an actress shows up

[00:43:14] who is hot and wears bronzer, like all studio heads can think of is like, should they be Cleopatra? It's like, stop it! This has never worked. The Gal Gadot Cleopatra movie is ostensibly this same project. Right, it's the never-ever project. They've been trying to make it forever.

[00:43:30] Stop trying to make it. That's my advice. There's that incredible moment where James Cameron's like, maybe I'll make it. And it very clearly was him getting Fox to give him more money for the Avatar sequel. So he's like, well, maybe I won't get around to Avatar

[00:43:43] for 25 years if I make Cleopatra first. Fincher made $5 million on the social network. Now, the reason we have all these numbers in greater detail is because of the Sony head. Thank you, Kim Jong-un. Thank you, North Korea. The People's Republic. Fincher asked for $10 million for Steve Jobs.

[00:44:02] Now, he actually only asked for a $45 million budget for this movie. Reasonable. Of course, it is basically set just in physical spaces that you just have to rent. But that's about as strapped down as he gets. But he's still asking for quite a lot of money for himself.

[00:44:18] And the Sony execs are like, that's too much money. Rudin, in an email, says, you don't think $40 million to shoot three scenes is enough? Do you want every control given to him, including the entire marketing campaign? This is the director who refused to put

[00:44:33] the girl with the dragon tattoo in the ads for the girl with the dragon tattoo. I don't quite get that. I don't get that either. She's in the ads. What does that mean? I don't know what that means. Such a fucking asshole.

[00:44:42] If you go and read those emails, he is the biggest asshole in the world. He's really the worst. He is nothing but like so rude to everyone all the time that Amy Pascal eventually has to send my favorite email that's ever been sent. Why are you punishing me?

[00:44:57] Just that one line just got rude. Why are the letter U punishing me sent from my Xperia Z2? Sent from my Sony Xperia Z2. Brand loyal. The thing with Rudin, of course, is he's produced so many great films. I mean, his name is on so many great films.

[00:45:15] He's an EGOT winner. Because he would fucking attach himself like a goddamn barnacle to these really great artists, more so than Harvey. Because Harvey Weinstein obviously was part of good movies. But he also made a lot of middle-brow fucking trash and like puffed it up.

[00:45:30] He was a studio head. Yes. The difference was Rudin would wait for someone to make the breakthrough movie. The Coen brothers, whoever. Right. Wes Anderson. And then would just be like, you're mine. And of course his reputation was that he would fight to the nail for them.

[00:45:44] You know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And this is the key. You don't know how many interns he'll scream at for you. Right, but like not to exonerate people who had relationships with him, but it was kind of that thing of like

[00:45:53] if you're like a sensitive, exacting artist type who doesn't know how to navigate through this awful system of bureaucracy, just close your eyes, look the other direction, focus on your little script. Scott Rudin will figure out everything for you. Right.

[00:46:08] He will fight every fight and he will not lose. He will motherfuck everyone that you cannot. Right, and that was basically his thing is like a lot of these kind of like timid auteur guys would just be like, Rudin, just whatever it takes. Whatever it takes.

[00:46:20] Was Amy, correct me if I'm wrong, but Amy Pascal like came up through the Rudin system. Yes. And now they... Sounds like something they make Marines do. It should be. Like the fact that she's a woman who got out alive

[00:46:34] and became a major producer is kind of insane. Let's also just say this time period, Amy Pascal feels like, we're talking late 2000s, early 2010s, Amy Pascal feels like the last old school studio head where there is a balance between like commercial projects,

[00:46:53] franchise projects, but also being like... Already Oscar stuff. We have to make real movies. At big scale. We put real budgets behind real directors and not only that, she's like nurturing new stars. There's that point where it's like Emma Stone, Andrew Garfield, Jesse Eisenberg.

[00:47:08] There's like a bunch of young people who are not obvious stars that she's like, we're putting you in multiple projects. We're thinking long term. Because it would be like, you know, whatever. The other studios would be like, well, we have our Oscar branch.

[00:47:21] But we don't make those movies. The little guys make those movies. Amy Pascal is still like, we could do both. Amy Pascal is cool. I like her. She's cool. Social networks should also be able to play at malls. We can make these movies that split the difference.

[00:47:37] She wrote some embarrassing shit in those emails and got dragged for them. But she's a very interesting figure. But Fincher exited the project. Sorkin wanted him. He begged for him. But his first choice was Bale. And the studio, I think, wanted DiCaprio more.

[00:47:55] But it was sort of their... Well, they're always going to want DiCaprio the most or whatever. But neither guy wanted to do it. Bale was sort of more seriously considered and then was like, I can't figure this guy out. Yeah, he kind of dropped.

[00:48:05] But do you have the email where... I think Amy Pascal found out about this via a Hollywood reporter headline that was like David Fincher... It was like a news roundup that was like, David Fincher to leave Steve Jobs, Adam Driver cast as villain in Star Wars.

[00:48:21] And Amy Pascal sends him that headline and is like, what the fuck is going on? And David Fincher replies, yeah, that's crazy. Adam Driver's really wrong for that role. He says, Adam Driver is a terrible idea. I'm with you. That's funny. And Amy Pascal replies in all caps,

[00:48:39] I meant the one about us butting heads and you're not directing jobs! He is so funny. And I feel like people don't really understand... He's very mordant in his emails. Yeah, exactly. Very, yes, very dry. But also if you are David Fincher,

[00:48:53] like do you want to do this again? No. The challenge of just like... You now have to compete with yourself. Even if this is a fairly different project from Social Network, you're doing another difficult tech billionaire genius movie with Aaron Sorkin dialogue. He wisely does Gone Girl.

[00:49:10] Everyone's gonna just judge you. Does he go to Mindhunter after this? No, it's Gone Girl. Oh, I forgot about my favorite movie Gone Girl. You forgot about another one of the great films. He goes to Fox and is like, I guess my thing is take the best-selling air,

[00:49:22] put paperback... Not to toot my own dick. Toot your own dick, David. No, but I mean just like when I interviewed him, I said like, you know, come on, you were making these original movies. He's like, every time I had to get a bestseller

[00:49:35] and that would be the way I could get it over the line. Which it's so weird that it just stops with Gone Girl. I know. I should have just gotten another bestseller. Yeah. But he gave us Manc. And for that, I salute him.

[00:49:48] And for that, I say, Manc you very much. The Killer starring Michael Fassbender. Yes, based on an idea by Wendy Williams. The Wendy Williams? Have you never seen Wendy Williams talking about The Killer? Oh, sure. The Killer! So Fincher exits. Okay, so what's Danny Boyle up to?

[00:50:06] Well, he made a little thing called Trance. Uh-oh. He directed a pilot for the British TV show Babylon, which is fairly popular. So you know, he's sort of messing around in Britain. I think he had some good times with that. Then he's thinking about a...

[00:50:23] Olympic ceremony, I would say. This sounds like a Ben friendly... Yeah, yeah, yeah. We talked about that on the Trance episode. This sounds like a Ben friendly project. It's called Smash and Grab, The Story of the Pink Panthers, an adaptation of a Diamond Thief documentary. Wow. Come on.

[00:50:38] British Diamond Thieves called the Pink Panthers? Yeah. Also rumors that Warner Brothers wanted him for American Sniper. Whoa. I'm not sure what that looks like. Bizarre. But that speaks to him just being in this Oscar friendly director pod, where people aren't even thinking about appropriateness. They're just like,

[00:50:57] well, this guy's done a bunch of different genres and he's won an Oscar. I guess any big prestige project, you could maybe throw him into consideration. I also think that something specific about Boyle, in almost kind of like an Ang Lee kind of way,

[00:51:09] is that you can give him whatever. It's true. And he can make a good movie. He's adaptive. His American Sniper would be weird. Weird. But it would probably be good. Yeah, I'd give him a world. It would probably be less insane than the American Sniper we have.

[00:51:23] They used his baby from Train to Scotland. That was the one thing they... They did. With zero upkeep. Right. It was like a little bit rotted, like that fucking Ninja Turtles costume. Oh, here it is. Looks fine. Put it in his hands. Bounce the head.

[00:51:42] That's one of the funniest things that has ever happened. You're holding a baby. Yeah. Like what if we could hear Clint directing? Like if we could just hear that audio. Rock it. Good. Put it down. I don't know. Anyway.

[00:51:54] What I would like to hear is Bradley Cooper being like, Clint, I would love one more take. I'm still trying to sync up my performance. I didn't even know how much it was going to weigh. I would love to just know the conversation where Clint was like,

[00:52:05] Are you using a fake baby? Bradley seems like the kind of guy who'd be like, Please give me a living baby. I have heard the... I just looked on the monitor. It looks fine. We're going. I believe it was a thing where the baby was running late.

[00:52:22] I think the true answer. And Clint had his eye on this turkey sandwich over at Craft Services. He really wanted it. I truly think it was a thing where the baby was running late. Or the baby was sick. They had booked a baby.

[00:52:34] And it was one of these things where like... Like an AD came up to him and was like, Clint, we have eyes on another baby. It would take two hours to get here. And he's like, give me the doll. Right. It was that.

[00:52:46] It was truly like, I have no interest in waiting. Give me the boiled doll. You just have to imagine Bradley Cooper was like, If you give me six takes, I can figure this out. And Clint was like, that's not how it works.

[00:52:56] If you give me six takes, I will learn the angles. I will learn how to puppeteer this. Clint probably maybe even did, but he just didn't even roll film. He'd already walked away. He was eating the turkey. He was eating that turkey sub. Okay.

[00:53:06] There's a novel called Ingenious Pain. Okay. That Danny Boyle is also thinking about. The story of a mid-18th century man who can feel neither pain nor pleasure. That's a real Danny Boyle. I'm proud of you. Danny Boyle had taken this book to Ewan McGregor

[00:53:25] as the first olive branch in the healing of their relationship, which will soon be further healed with his next project. So they're sort of thinking about that, but they could never figure it out. He also wanted to make a David Bowie movie.

[00:53:41] And he had worked on a script on that with Frank Cotrell Boyce who wrote Millions. But they couldn't get the music rights and they kind of gave up on it. I would love to see a David Bowie movie. That movie would be cool.

[00:53:53] But if you can't get the music rights, there's no point. Well, there was the weird Marc Maron, Johnny Flynn, David Bowie movie that came out a couple years ago where they also couldn't get the music rights. Everyone just sort of agreed never to speak about it.

[00:54:05] Right. Change the character names. It was like, well, then we're not acknowledging this. Right. I mean, just go watch Velvet Goldmine. If you want the vibe. Right. Anyway, then the script ends up in his door. Now Rudin had worked with Boyle on the stage play Frankenstein. Oh, interesting.

[00:54:19] Big hit. Which was a big hit. So he does know him. That's the connection. And he reads the script and is very impressed with it. Unsurprisingly. And here's Boyle. Rudin probably thought, oh, you won't want to step into Fincher's shoes. But I read it and that was it.

[00:54:35] I said, I'm in. And he said, are you serious? I could hear it in his voice, him thinking, it can't be this easy. Can it? And I was like, I'm as serious as I can get. Wow. A very sensitive read from a strep throat David Sims.

[00:54:47] No, I think there are few directors at that level who would have such a severe lack of ego. It really speaks to Boyle not really caring about the industry game at all. My guess is right.

[00:54:58] They threw it at a lot of A-listers and they were like, Fincher turned it down. I don't want to do it. Right. That seems to be Boyle's whole thing too. Is being kind of like, I don't live in LA. Like I'm kind of removed from the bullshit.

[00:55:11] Like I am basically Irish, have this like workman like thing where I'll just whatever. Like there's no ego involved. But also if you're basically at a point where over the course of like five years these types of projects and studios have gone from like $60 million budgets

[00:55:26] to $30 million budgets. And the thing they've been fighting is how to keep this thing down when you're already paying so much for Sorkin, for the rights, yada, yada, yada. Boyle is a guy who you know is always going to be able to make a movie

[00:55:38] for less money than anyone else would. Like he's able to at a very high level somehow get maximum value out of whatever dollar you give him. Now this film is two hours long. Yes. The script is 185 pages.

[00:55:53] In classic Aaron Sorkin style, it essentially has instructions being like read fast. Yeah. Read fast to treat time. The other thing I'll say, like I read the social network script when that was going around like every other dumb 20-something male white actor

[00:56:09] who was trying to get any part in that thing. Sure. The thing about his scripts being long, aside from the fact that you're being told to perform fast, is also with Sorkin you like look at a page of dialogue and a lot of it is sentence fragments. Right.

[00:56:23] So it like takes a line but it's like well come on. You know? I'm telling you, no I know what you're saying but yeah well. Does he do it like bum bum bum or does he put them next to each other?

[00:56:34] My memory is that it's more bum bum bum straight line down rather than the sort of parallel dialogue lateral kind of thing. That is so interesting. I think that's also kind of a theater-y thing where like he is –

[00:56:48] something you cannot forget about Aaron Sorkin is that he wanted to be an actor until he was like 20 basically. And he is a theater kid through and through which is why he loves talky talky talky

[00:57:01] and he loves like – I feel like a lot of his shit is structured theatrically. And also huge thing about him, I mean part of his whole mythology, he writes A Few Good Men on napkins while working as a bartender at a Broadway theater.

[00:57:14] It gets in the hands of the right person who's like we could fucking sell this to studios as a movie. And his contract is I will not sell the rights as a movie until it gets staged on Broadway first.

[00:57:25] He was like so dorkily obsessed with the idea of being a playwright and not a screenwriter that he was like contractually Sony basically has to pay to put this on Broadway for six months before I'll let Rob Reiner make it as a film.

[00:57:38] So when I interviewed him, I interviewed him for To Kill a Mockingbird and the angle was that Ed Harris was stepping into the role of Atticus Finch.

[00:57:46] Did you do like sort of any warm up exercises to make sure that your legs didn't get like worn out from the interview? It's good to do stretches. Do you guys have to like go upstairs?

[00:57:58] It is so great when he's on 30 Rock and they do the walk-in time. Incredible. And I was very scared to do this interview because one, I kind of admire Aaron Sorkin and I didn't want to think I was an idiot. And two, I'm very scared of Ed Harris.

[00:58:12] I admire him too but he seems scary. He's the number one scariest man. But I'm interviewing them at the theater. Together? That would scare the crap out of me. But it's really lovely to be in a Broadway theater when no one's there.

[00:58:23] And Ed Harris was late and so Aaron and I are just literally like at the theater. One of the biggest theaters in Broadway. I forget what his name is. My brother's mad at me right now.

[00:58:33] And we're walking and the stage is all set up for Kill a Mockingbird. And he's like, take a look at this. And he brings me over to the stage and the step, because people come in through the aisles. Good point. And step onto the stage in that production.

[00:58:52] And the step for people to get is half your foot doesn't even fit on it. Interesting. And I'm like, look at this. It's amazing people don't break their legs. And we just like, you know, both of us are taking steps up and down.

[00:59:04] And his weird childish joy about the stage and then we're walking around on the stage. You know, it was just kind of obvious like, oh yeah, this is still just number one for him. He loves this shit. He loves it. Because he's like fucking rich and famous now.

[00:59:19] What does he need to be doing this? I guess he has been busy for a long time but it has always kind of surprised me that he doesn't do more theater. I guess he has Kim a lot coming this season.

[00:59:27] I think he's kind of backing on the Broadway baby. And then Ed Harris showed up and he was scary. But he was nice or polite. Yeah. He didn't yell at me. No, but he had some terse words for Maverick. Oh boy. Anyway.

[00:59:46] It is incredible when he shows up in that movie looking like a pile of sand. Just yelling at Tom Cruise. Yelling. He's like growling. Simmering. Yeah, he's like, oh God, he's so good. There's like electricity coming out of his mouth. He's so cool in that movie. Yeah.

[01:00:04] All right. So Bale. Yes. DiCaprio. Yeah. Some other names they tossed around. Damon, Bradley Cooper, Ben Affleck. Didn't someone really want Tom Cruise to do it? Yes. Tom Cruise is on. I don't really understand how things like that come about. That is insane. He would be really weird.

[01:00:22] He would be really weird. He's too small. Yeah. He's like not. I don't know. I understand there's the single-minded intensity. They're like, huh, you're a freak. Right. Charismatic. I will say though that like it would be so distracting to watch a movie about a father

[01:00:37] and daughter that stars Tom Cruise. Yes. Didn't even consider that. Like it would just be, it would be all over anything anyone wrote about that movie. I'm also certain that was, that is a box he would have refused to open.

[01:00:49] There's no way he would interrogate that stuff in himself. No, no, no, no. And if he did, maybe the movie would be brilliant masterpiece. But I don't think he wouldn't. No, he wouldn't. Would be willing to do that. Yeah.

[01:00:59] The craziest thing of course is after all this fucking bullshit and Boyle is on board and Fassbender is finally the choice. Right. They're still arguing over the budget and so Amy Pascal puts the project in turnaround and Universal immediately nabs it. Right.

[01:01:14] Which like obviously she was like trying to, you know, what it was clearly part of her budget game was putting it in turnaround. It seems like a weird mistake. But it was also this question. Because it was still a hot project.

[01:01:25] It was this question of is Fassbender a movie star, right? Like end of the 2000s. Definitely because he'd done The X-Men. Yeah. Hardy and Fassbender were the two guys in the industry at the end of the 2000s were like, is this the next wave? Are these the guys?

[01:01:38] You know? When does Shame come out? Shame is 11? Yeah. Shame is 11. And that was, he was not nominated for that film but he was close. But he was like around and he was kind of, yeah. Everyone's talking about his big old hammer. Big old hammer.

[01:01:53] But he had like, he was doing X-Men and he had all of these like, he had the Steve McQueen, the like early McQueen movies and like he was really about to be a guy.

[01:02:04] And then after this movie everything kind of gets weird and then he goes dark and becomes a race car driver. He joined the Creed obviously as well. Oh yeah. You can't forget about the Creed. Assassin's Creed. Oh. Is he in that movie? Yeah. Oh my God. Sorry.

[01:02:20] It's Ben's favorite film. But the, did you see that it circulated to Justin Kersel, director of Assassin's Creed that he has now listened to the episode? Yes, I did see that. And I salute you, Justin Kersel. Knows that Ben is his number one fan.

[01:02:34] Come on the show, Justin. Yeah, it's open invitation. There's this Terry Gilliam quote that circulates a lot with him talking about probably one of his 18,000 attempts to get Don Quixote off the ground in the late 2000s.

[01:02:47] And he's like every company I meet with they say you need a hard bender. And they're like they want that tier of guy like Michael Fassbender or Tom Hardy where everyone thinks they're hard bender. That sounds sexy. It does. But it's stuck in my mind forever.

[01:03:01] But it's like that thing of these guys are still cheap because they're not actually movie stars yet. Yeah. But everyone in the industry agrees they are incredibly handsome, charismatic, talented. It's going to happen.

[01:03:13] And Fassbender is on this parallel track where he's doing his prestige projects and he's doing his blockbusters. And you're like, OK, so he's been Magneto. He almost got an Oscar nomination. It's, you know. And then he did eventually get one for 12 Years a Slave.

[01:03:27] But in the moment that they're casting him in this, right? Sure. He probably is. They're sort of like I think the debate is, is he one film away from it finally happening and connecting? Is this the movie? Is this the movie?

[01:03:39] Are you going to get him right at the right time? And is everything that's happened over the last five years evidence that he's never going to quite be a list, that he's maybe stuck at a tier right below?

[01:03:48] And so, yeah, there's a lot of hand wringing in the budget of like even for thirty five million dollars. Can you do it with him? Do people like this guy? Yeah. For a character that is inherently unlikable, does it help to have a movie star that people

[01:04:01] already kind of know and feel comfortable with? And I think what they boil down to in the email, Amy Pascal, Danny Boyle, Danny Boyle, hashtag boil down. Amy Pascal is like, it doesn't matter. People will see this movie with Fassbender because he's enough of a name.

[01:04:17] And you have Danny Boyle and you have Aaron Sorkin and you have one of the most famous men in the entire world as the subject. And then we get our beautiful movie. We get our beautiful movie. Of course, she was wrong. People didn't really want to see that.

[01:04:27] But I don't care. Yeah. But but yes. There is like a very prescient email in the Sony leaks where a guy is telling Amy Pascal like the marketing guy or whatever. He's like, as it is stands now, this movie is probably going to make like mid 30s.

[01:04:43] And he was exactly spot on. Dead right. And it was. Well, we'll get to all of this. But the other thing to say is that the the Astro Kutcher project like rushed. They were sort of like, yeah, they have to be there first.

[01:04:55] We can't be good, but we can be first. We can be first. And I thought it was going to be like a photo finish Bugs Life Ants thing. Instead, they come out two full years earlier. Yes. That movie flops even harder.

[01:05:05] It makes no impression, but it does fuck this movie over a little bit where their confidence was like, well, everyone's waiting for the real one. And even though no one saw the fake one by the time this came out, they were like another one of these.

[01:05:18] There was a little bit of that. Yeah, that's for sure. And I do think there was a little bit of like Michael Fassbender is not a draw. Yeah, it's just sort of over and over again. The same with no offense to the creed.

[01:05:32] But same with the same with Assassin's Creed. Same with anything where it's like all Fassbender on the thing. It's like after this, he's like, fuck it. I have to do it. I have to do my franchise. That is just me. That's not X-Men.

[01:05:46] That's not me taking over a role. I have to do my thing. And he does that after finally getting his Oscar nom or second Oscar nom. That movie bombs and then he kind of disappears and goes into a fucking race. He didn't disappear.

[01:06:01] He gave us all the clues and then he decided. That's truly. Have you guys watched that movie? No. I mean, yes, in that I put it on and the visuals went into my eyes and supposedly into my brain. That movie played in front of you.

[01:06:17] That movie is like one of – it feels like you are on some kind of drug that makes like your audio processing system stop working. You're like none of this is making sense. I'm so ready for that movie. The movie is like there's a murderer in the ice. Perfect.

[01:06:32] Great. Michael Fassbender is on the case. I'm like fantastic. His name is Harry Hole. It's actually like Harry Hole or whatever. I'm still with it. I'm like cool. The murderer is called the Snowman. Great. He does snowman crimes. Huh? And then after that.

[01:06:46] How many clues did he leave you? All of them. I love it. What? But then, yeah, it's one of those movies where scenes seem to be missing and then the director is kind of like, yeah, I didn't get to all the scenes. We needed like 10 more days. Anyway.

[01:07:01] And then he goes off and now he like lives in Lisbon with Alicia Vikander and they have a baby. They sure do. They're a hot couple. His last credit was? X-Men Dark Phoenix. Correct. And his next – this year he's in two films. Yeah. Killer and Next School Wins.

[01:07:14] But this is – that's five year gap? Four years. Okay. No, this definitely felt like the movie that was the real test. You know, is this the breakthrough moment? Obviously I think this performance is tremendous. I think it's very, very good. I don't really know who would be better.

[01:07:36] It's not a movie that at all screams to me like, oh, it just needed X. He's perfect to me. Yes. Bale is not an actor I love, so. I love Bale as an actor. So I think I get excited about the idea of him doing this.

[01:07:49] But Bale is one of my guys. The way you talk about Daniel Day-Lewis, where you're like, oh, it's boring to say you like Daniel Day-Lewis. I'm like, I particularly like Bale a lot. I think Bale would have like – He's just in a lot of David O. Russell movies.

[01:08:02] Yeah, that's true. I think Bale would have like done a little too much. He would have like hit it a little too hard. Quite possibly. Which is like a thing that's good when you're – that's what you're looking for when you're making like a David O. Russell movie.

[01:08:16] It's the same with Joaquin. Yeah, exactly. How much ham? How much cheese? Well, this is one of these conflicted elements of this movie, right? I've been jobs-pilled. I'm here. I'm on the boat with you, okay? Right. But we've like jobs OD'd. We're like drowning in our own bottle.

[01:08:33] Sure, I'm taking a couple. I'm still following instructions on the bottle. You're having a good time and David and I are like out. I'm not trying to exceed more than eight in a 24-hour period. That's right. I'm monitoring how much alcohol I drink while I'm on jobs.

[01:08:45] Very good, very good. Try not to do hard liquor. Beer and wine. But I do think it's an interesting question just in terms of certainly this movie's reputation at the time it came out.

[01:08:55] I do think that was another thing that was going against it where you're like, okay, so the guy playing Steve Jobs is that guy I kind of know and then he really doesn't

[01:09:03] look like him and to the credit of the movie and a fast bender, fast bender, I think wisely like tries to approach this as a character more than needing to impersonate this guy or invoke him. Yeah.

[01:09:16] But I do think for a lot of people with a movie like this, they want to see the poster where they go like, holy shit. Can you believe this fucking side by side? That's why they put him in the black turtleneck in the poster.

[01:09:27] Towards the end, I will say in the last act, I'm kind of like, I get it. He gets the pitch of the voice. And he gets the glasses on and I see it more. When they're in the garage, he looks so hot that it is distracting.

[01:09:40] And then also in the first part when he takes off his shirt and he's in the t-shirt and he's like, awooga. He's got the X-Men arms. He's jacked and he looks so crazy hot that it's kind of like, it takes you out of it.

[01:09:55] Steve Jobs was handsome but like this was— But he was never built. But he was a trim guy who paid more attention to how he dressed in a sea of schlubs with big glasses and Star Wars shirts and all that. Yeah.

[01:10:08] But I do think, yeah, the decision of like, let's just get a good actor who will give a good performance for this confused a lot of the public. And that's always what Sorkin wanted to.

[01:10:16] Every time he does an interview about this movie, he says it's a painting, not a photograph. Like, I just want this to be like impressionistic. It's not the real thing. I don't care about it being the real thing.

[01:10:28] No, I mean, few movies have ever cared less about realism in their own way than this film. And I think actually that is a much more interesting way to approach biopic or like a real story than like, you know, cradle to grave.

[01:10:42] Because it's like I don't actually care what happened with this person's life. I care about what you have to say about what this person's life like tells you about something else. I agree 100 percent. Now, I think we should start digging into the movie in earnest.

[01:10:56] Which is what? Like an hour 15 in? This is all really important. This is so important. It's a context heavy film. Yes. Now, can I say the other line that bumps for me in this movie, the only other isolated

[01:11:08] line where I just go, Aaron, you're pushing it once to shoot you with a revolver. I wonder if it's the same one that I bump up against. What's yours? Mine is when he asked Kate Winslet why they've never had sex. I love that line. I hate that line.

[01:11:18] He's an asshole. I know, but it's never, he's like a sexless being other than being played by Michael Fassbender. It doesn't make any sense why he would be like, why have we never slept together? Unless he's written by Aaron Sorkin. Well, that's true. Yeah.

[01:11:32] I mean, and he is half Sorkin. But that feels like something he said to her like 10 times because she has the response where she's just like, because we're not in love. She's not even looking at it.

[01:11:41] Because what I like about them is that they have this like crazy chemistry. There's like electric chemistry that never really feels sexual. They're just like two people who like love each other in this weird fucked up way. I mean, I agree with that completely.

[01:11:57] I just think that's his relationship with everyone in this movie in a different way. Yes. Except for maybe Stuhlbarg. But even Stuhlbarg he kind of respects. He says, Stuhlbarg says, I never liked you. And he said, that's a shame. I always liked you. What's your bumpy?

[01:12:13] I, on this second viewing, fully accept the sort of dramatic conceit of this film. Okay. It's about Steve Jobs. But the, you know, all these conversations are going to be coming up constantly at the moment right before these three, you know,

[01:12:31] picking up basically right where they left off. Right. All of that. I think the moment he calls it out. Oh, you don't like that? I love that. It just feels a little too, like, I'll let you get away with it until the moment where you lampshade it

[01:12:44] and have the characters acknowledge the reality. He's a little tossed off, Joe. How come every time I'm about to launch a product, everyone I know goes to a bar and then decides to unload on me or whatever he says. I think it's funny.

[01:12:54] I think it's a fun line. I just think he's pushing it a little bit, Aaron. That's what Aaron does. I know he does. He pushes and he pushes. And he does a great job pushing. You're always with him. And you're always with him. Oh no, Chicago 7.

[01:13:04] That's the thing is that Aaron's working. It's running down the hill. Pushes and pushes and pushes. Yeah. Which is why he's a bad writer director. He needs a director or else he'll push himself off of a fucking cliff. He needs to push and pull. I agree with that.

[01:13:17] Except I do love Molly's game. Okay, Molly's game is the one where I'm like, this is cool and good. It's the uncut H. Because it also doesn't look like shit. It looks fine. Being the Ricardos and especially Chicago 7. Wow. Chicago 7 is one of the worst looking movies.

[01:13:34] Chicago 7 looks like garbage. Yeah. Everyone's hair looks crazy. I forgot about being the Ricardos. Yeah. Wow. I forgot about that. A movie he wrote and directed. Three acting nominations, David. Who's the third? J.K. Simmons? J.K. Simmons. Yeah. That's in. Oh my God.

[01:13:53] J.K. Simmons has two Oscar nominations. Oh, I think you should have more. Whiplash. He's won for that. What was the other one? Juno probably. Yeah. He's been a lot of good movies. Patriots.

[01:14:04] You just keep going and then like the sun sets and you're like, I don't fucking know. Come on. Just tell me what was it? Being the Ricardos. He's not in that. Yes he is. He's in it. Absurd. No, Molly's game is like, I think like 30% amateurishly directed.

[01:14:24] 70% just workmanlike, get out of the way, serve the script, great performances. It's got a couple ideas visually that are. No, it's got some. And then you're like, oh, I think he's going to refine it. He's going to become a really good.

[01:14:37] And then the next movie immediately, it's all bad habits take over. He's never coming out of this. But geez, Trial of the Chicago 7 is fucking. Remember when Jeremy Strong said he asked Aaron Sorkin to spray him in the face with real tear gas.

[01:14:54] Yeah, those two together in a room. I know. I can't remember. And when Jeremy Strong got profiled in The New Yorker, Jessica Chastain had to share like a typewritten letter from Aaron Sorkin. God, everyone is crazy. God, remember when there was a profile of.

[01:15:11] One of my hottest takes is that I think Jeremy Strong is good in Chicago 7 and Sacha Baron Cohen is disastrous. Sacha Baron Cohen also, also it's just like the politics of that movie are so awful. And it totally works who Abby Hoffman was. Yeah, no, it's not.

[01:15:28] It's a weird. But that's the thing with Sorkin is he's like, who are these guys? Yeah, I don't get it. Who are these guys? Right. I guess I'll read this book. Like he doesn't care about stuff like that. No.

[01:15:38] And so, yeah, so he'll just do a thing where you're like, well, Abby Hoffman didn't behave this way. You know, Sorkin's politics are like It's Morning in America, the ad, but not Reagan. Yeah. Like he likes the idea. Yeah. Right. Like the Folgers coffee commercial with the siblings.

[01:15:52] He's like people can do good if they try hard enough. Right. It's like, well, OK. Right. It's totally sort of like just an abstract notion of integrity and honesty. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, yeah, I can't get into his politics right now.

[01:16:07] That's like a further pretzel to unknot. But, OK, Steve Jobs. Yes. Has three acts. The first was filmed in 16 millimeter, the second in 35, and the third in digital. I don't know if you knew that. And you know, in between them they like unspool or the real ends.

[01:16:21] It's really cool. So cool. Obviously the score, the perfect score by Daniel Pemberton, which I listen to all the time. What's up? Why do they do that? Because time is passing. Oh, to sort of represent the different time periods. The shift technology in the three eras. Yeah. OK.

[01:16:37] It's very, if you watch this movie over and over again, really. You really see it. I think it's incredibly effective. It's so cool. And it's a thing like that that is, it's not a showy look at my concept thing.

[01:16:47] I think it does affect the feeling of the three acts. Because the score changes every time as well. The composer used very, very different music styles for each act. Aesthetically everything feels different. Obviously the setting is very different every time. It's like three short films. Yes.

[01:17:04] And the main character is Steve Jobs, played by Michael Fassbender. And he's always with his trusty publicity head, Joanna Hoffman, played by Kate Winslet. Played brilliantly by Kate Winslet. Oscar nominated performance snub for the win maybe? Golden Globe winner. Rachel McAdams. Who wins this year? The Canter.

[01:17:25] The Canter. It's one of those ones where you're like, oh, the worst. And Eddie Redmayne won Best Actor. No, he did not. No, because he won the year before. He was nominated for the Danish girl. Oh, fuck. This is the Leo year. This is the Revenant.

[01:17:40] This is the Leo year. I mean, I've said this so many times. If the Canter had won for Ex Machina instead, I think that would be better. But listen to these five nominees. I feel like we just did this. Yeah. I think you and I just did this.

[01:17:54] After we saw Scream. Humblebrag. Why were we talking about this year? Because I think we were talking about this movie. It's also just so weird because that year felt like everyone being like, McCanter is the new person. We're going to anoint her.

[01:18:06] And then she also kind of disappears for five years. They go off to live in Portugal. I like Alicia McCanter. I do too. I support her. I do too. But it felt like this was like. I'm kind of meh on her. I've never been wowed.

[01:18:17] I don't really like her in the Danish girl, the film she won Best Picture. Best. She won Best Picture. They gave her Best Picture. Jennifer J. Celine, Hateful Eight. Which is kind of a career nom. But you know, I like that performance.

[01:18:30] But yes, kind of a career nom. Rooney Mara and Carol, obvious sort of egregious character. Category fraud. But obviously good performance. But she's not winning because of the category. I really think the category fraud was too crazy. I agree. Rachel McAdams in Spotlight. My winner.

[01:18:45] Just an amazing performer. We all agree on that. Lovely. Incredibly. And her ill-fitting khakis. Winslet in Jobs who was probably never going to win because she had recently won an Oscar. But won the Globe and the BAFTA. Right. And it felt like, oh fuck.

[01:18:59] It kind of felt like maybe we'll just give it to her. And it felt, Vikander, it was one of those things where they were like, are they running her in lead for Danish Girl and then supporting for Ex Machina? Which one is she going to get nominated for?

[01:19:11] And then yeah, she wins for the shitty movie that no one likes in a completely forgotten performance. Best Actor is almost more egregious to me because... Because Leo wins. Because Leo wins for The Revenant. Okay, let's just play out an alternate history to this. Michael Fassbender.

[01:19:27] Michael Fassbender wins for Steve Jobs. We love that. That's great. Leo doesn't win. Leo does win for Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, meaning that Joaquin does not win for Joker. How do we all feel about that? Great. Sounds good. Incredible. Incredible performance by him.

[01:19:42] The Revenant is just like, that's the one? There's also the version where they just give it to him for fucking Wolf of Wall Street. Right, exactly. It should have been the performance before or after Revenant. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, but he had to lose to McConaughey that year. Boo.

[01:19:56] It's the whole thing. Right, and I said give it to McConaughey for Inners, don't I? Exactly. No, but they were like, no, you don't understand. This McConaughey performance will stand the test of time. Right. I could be like, hi, I'm here from 10 years later. It doesn't. Right.

[01:20:08] No one talks about that performance. We actually have kind of turned on that movie. Yeah, no one kind of doesn't want to talk about that movie, honestly. But even like the ripple effect of giving...

[01:20:16] I feel like I've said this one so many times, but Jeff Bridges, the He's Overdue Crazy Heart Award. Right, and then it's like true grit rolls in one year later.

[01:20:23] Right, and that year they have to give it to Colin Firth when Colin Firth had given the better performance in the Bridges year. And you're like, you could just swap them.

[01:20:31] Here's the thing is that when you look at what the Oscars do, like if you just look at a sheet that's like the best actor from every year, like the best picture from every year, it's like, damn, they fuck it up so much. They do. Every time.

[01:20:42] I do feel like sometimes if you step back and you sort of squint like a Madge Guy painting. Right, like a Monet. You're like, by and large, a lot of the time... It all works out. Sort of.

[01:20:51] The right people get their awards and sometimes they got two later, they got too early, but then of course corrected or whatever. And some people just get snubbed and some people have awards that never should have gotten them.

[01:20:59] But you're like, Joaquin should have one, Leo should have one. It does divide out. Maybe Fassbender will get one next year. Next year he will. Next year he will. The Killer? Yeah. The Killer? The Killer. What if there was a killer?

[01:21:14] So Kate Winslet is always there with her Polish accent sometimes. Seth Rogen is always there playing Steve Wozniak. Co-founder of Apple. Can I say it? And you guys, I think my boomy out of the room... What? I think this is the best performance in the movie.

[01:21:29] Well that's crazy but it's a great performance. I won't bump up against him. We love the performance. I think he's unbelievable. Back to Oscar talk, in A Perfect World they are showing the scene in the orchestra pit when Seth Rogen got nominated.

[01:21:45] He had some Oscar buzz and then this movie's Oscar buzz just kind of died. It went away. Because it's like he's not... Winslet is beloved enough, a favorite. Fassbender's sort of scene is overdue because of the shame snub.

[01:21:57] The comedian going serious is not going to get over the hump for a movie that flopped. It's his first. It's his first. It's really him doing his first dramatic role.

[01:22:05] But I feel like it was a very similar thing with Patton Oswalt in Young Adult where the second that movie bombed it was like it's not happening. They had been flirting with it and then...

[01:22:13] If you're a funny guy the movie needs to have so much groundswell behind it to overcome. Don't talk to me like I'm other people. He's amazing in the movie. The fucking orchestra scene, his breathing pattern in it. He breathed good. He breathed really... He's doing like Gandolfini breathing.

[01:22:32] Come on. The legend is the legend. I think he's phenomenal in that movie. We all agree. Rogen amazing in this movie. Maybe Ben doesn't agree. Oh I agree. It's his best acting performance period. In all three. In all three. Jeff Daniels is always there.

[01:22:48] John Scully who was CEO of Apple for 10 years. In the first two but not the third. Kathryn Waddesdon is there as Chrisanne Brennan. Steve Jobs' former girlfriend. In all three Michael Stolberg is there as Andy Hertzfeld.

[01:23:04] Who actually you guys might not know this is one of the little trolls from Frozen. I was going to say. He actually is a rock. And then he spins and goes, hello. Bit of a fixer upper. It's one of the great shames of this movie's failure for me.

[01:23:20] That I cannot buy a line of collectible plushes of Michael Stolberg in his various looks. In his three costumes. I don't know if his look changes that much. When his little bangs are like white at the end too. His white bangs are so cute. He's adorable.

[01:23:34] He really is. In every scene, in every act Lisa Brennan Jobs is there. Played by three different actors obviously. The last actor who plays her as a teen is Perla Haynie Jardine. Miss Babies in Kill Bill Volume 2. She's also the Sandman's daughter in Spider-Man 3. There you go.

[01:23:52] Not Adam Sandler's daughter to be clear. She's really good. All the Lisas are pretty good. Middle Lisa breaks my heart every time. I mean all three Lisas. I think she kind of brings the heat in the last bit.

[01:24:04] Is Sarah Snook in all three or is she only in one and three? I was going to say Sarah Snook is only in one and three. She does not appear in the second act. She does not go over to next.

[01:24:12] But she is playing a real person, Andy Cunningham, who is actually really happy with her portrayal in this film. Why wouldn't you be? I would be thrilled if Sarah Snook played me. And also if in the movie Steve Jobs is like, You did a good job.

[01:24:25] You, I have no notes. You did exactly what I wanted. Fulfilled arc. And also secretly in every act John Ortiz. Joel Pforzheimer. Quietly. GQ journalist. He's actually profiling him every time. That's it. But like. Kind of a good running bit that Jobs keeps forgetting or not noticing

[01:24:45] that this guy is shadowing him and following him. Correct. And there's this running joke that there are two Andes and it's only by the third act that Kate Winslet points out. Like, you know, the other Andy is a girl named Andrea. That's Sarah Snook's character.

[01:24:58] Like you could just call her Andrea. But he's like, I know who I'm talking about. Everyone else should know who I'm talking about. He says, I know to call her Andrea. The problem is. It's a perfect Steve Jobs logic puzzle thing of like.

[01:25:09] But there's the error in communication here that I can't defeat. Yeah. But in every act, it's basically like he's running around and all of these people want some of his time in some form. Everyone wants just a minute to talk to him. Exactly.

[01:25:27] And he's in the three acts. And this is the most brilliant choice by Sorkin. The launch of the Macintosh. The launch of the next, which is the cleverest choice. And the launch of the iMac. He doesn't get into the iPod or the iPad or the iTunes.

[01:25:39] But he does get to a notion of putting a thousand songs in one's pocket. Interesting. He also tells Jeff Daniels that the reason the Howard doesn't work is because you've got styluses on your fingers. The Newton. The Newton. I love Howard. I don't know.

[01:25:55] I guess they're kind of the same name. James Newton Howard? Yeah, probably. Probably. They should have called it the Howard. They should have called it the James Newton Howard. Isn't it disgusting that we can like figure out how the other is.

[01:26:03] We all are infected with the same stupid movie brain rot. Oh, gosh. But that's sort of a reference to the iPad. Yeah, or the iPhone. He can immediately laser in and say the reason your shit didn't work

[01:26:16] is because you had a stylus when you already have styluses on your fingers. The things we could have done. I think that is arguably the best single moment distillation of what Steve Jobs' talent was in the movie. But here you go.

[01:26:31] That's part of what this movie is about. I agree. Is everyone being like, why are you famous? What's your thing? What do you do? What is this? That's the way he describes himself. But I feel like it's trying to reckon with why is this man so consequential

[01:26:48] when he doesn't actually do anything except sort of yell at people and have ideas, think big picture, and then kind of bully and cajole and frighten others into achieving what he wants, even when what he wants seems illogical. And even more fascinatingly,

[01:27:06] that he basically had that reputation for the first 20 years of nearly complete failure. Like he was fucking tripping over and over and over again. Everyone's like, but obviously the guy's a genius. We have these figures today, and some of them have seemed to conclusively prove themselves

[01:27:25] to be morons, you know? And then there's, I couldn't think of one in particular. But yes, no, to basically end the movie with the first time he's going to have like a complete success and completely kind of prove his whole philosophy.

[01:27:39] It is cool that they picked, that Sorkin picks like two flops to start the movie. I think it's really clever of him to not end with like the iPhone, I guess. And also the fact that Jobs is so like averse to acknowledging what is actually making Apple money.

[01:27:57] Let's all acknowledge the Apple II. Let's acknowledge the Apple II team. That is, take some time to acknowledge the Apple II team. Let's put some respect on the name of the Apple II team. Why did I, any of, did anyone in this room ever own an Apple II?

[01:28:07] Just the top guys. What? David, just the top guys. No, I remember them in school. Because you might have. Yes, they were a classic school thing. Oh, sorry. You're Olivia, and I'm not saying this to shame you. Too young to have ever even seen an Apple II.

[01:28:19] I had to, okay, so here's my thing with this movie is that I actually don't give a shit about tech or Steve Jobs or anything. Absolutely. I think a lot of people who love this movie feel the same way as me. It's just an incredible movie.

[01:28:28] So I had to like look up like what is the Apple II? Or like what does it mean if they're like running like a 560 computer on a 120. I'm like, I don't, oh, 512. I'm like, I don't understand what any of that means. I'm just along for the ride.

[01:28:42] Yeah, like the Macintosh 512 had 512 kilobytes of RAM, aka my phone for like one millisecond of whatever it does now. Right, right. It's the like reserve that keeps your place in the game when you're on standby mode.

[01:28:59] It's what plays like the worst ad when you're jerking off to something like in the corner. And fellas, don't you hate it when. I was just trying to think of the jankiest thing online. Okay, so should we just start with the first act?

[01:29:11] You know what truly is like equivalent to? I don't. The like tiny bit of like energy memory that keeps the time when your phone is off or whatever. Sure, right. You know, just like tick tock, tick tock. Right, anyway, go on.

[01:29:21] But I do want to say because you. Yeah, you didn't have an Apple II, but did you have a Macintosh? I looked up what was the first, because I grew up, Olivia, in an Apple household. Right. I knew this about you. Your dad was a graphic designer.

[01:29:34] That's cool. And it was like whenever I was a kid, the only kids who had Macs were the kids whose parents worked in arts. Man of science. I had a neighbor whose like mom was like a graphic designer. That was the only people who owned Macs.

[01:29:45] They had like the Mac desktop, and I was like, that's so cool. We had a Gateway 2000. There you go. Moo. Moo. I mean, it sucked at the time because. But did you have a Macintosh? Well, so I had a Macintosh Performa. Mm.

[01:29:59] Which was specifically the 578 that came out in 1994. That was my first computer. Wow, wow. So you were also early computer household. Yep. Yeah, I don't think we had a computer in the home until 98. Did that have the internet? It did. Hell yeah. Yep.

[01:30:17] It had not American Online yet. It must have had like. CompuServe probably. Yeah. I was going to say Netscape maybe, but maybe CompuServe. Well, Netscape was a browser. CompuServe is probably your like, yeah. Okay. But the thing that sucked is that it had no games. Right.

[01:30:32] Yeah, the Mac was not really. All of the games were on PC. So I immediately was just kind of like, oh, what? I'm going to learn with this? I felt like you could get some of the Sim games. Sure. There was a much more.

[01:30:44] You weren't buying Disney Interactive CD-ROMs for Mac. Kids weren't running to your house to play on your Macintosh. No, I didn't have to get permission from my parents to buy any of the games that were available on Apple computers. Yeah, I mean we were. Right, right.

[01:30:57] They were all family friendly. We were like a little later. Your skulls were exploding. It was like math munchers. That were my options. You couldn't get Quake or whatever. No. We were like a little later getting a computer in the household.

[01:31:10] And so I would be so attracted to any kid I knew who had a computer at their place. I'd be like, oh, let me have a play date with that kid. Play on the computer. Play some games. Go online. You know?

[01:31:20] Or like, dad, I really want to come over to your office. I should spend more time in your office. It has the internet and I can look up Lego.com. Right? Absolutely. Whatever.

[01:31:29] Going over to kids' houses who had Macs, it felt a little bit like we don't even own a TV. There was this attitude of like, actually the Mac is better. Right. That's what they were like. But your computer does nothing fun. What are you talking about?

[01:31:41] Until the iMac, it was like this computer is boring and you're telling me that you're better. The old joke was that they were like Catholics and that PC users were like Protestants. But the Mac users were like, this is, it has to be this way. Yes.

[01:31:52] It's very important. And it's the best version. PC users were like, I don't know. I don't know what this is. But here is the thing I want to say. Yeah. Okay? Anytime I would have to use a PC computer and even remember seeing it boot up and seeing

[01:32:07] DOS and seeing just what they talk about in this first part of the movie, the design, the aesthetic. I remember as a kid being like, this sucks. It sucks. It was bad. This is really bad.

[01:32:21] You didn't think it was a friendly face where the slot was a smile? No. It was the opposite. It was like so clunky and just seeing even just the behind the scenes of how the computer worked, it was just immediately recognizable that Apple computers were superior.

[01:32:42] They were superior. And the whole thing with the first act of the film, which is about the Macintosh 128, is he's had this great idea for a computer that anyone can use, including his five-year-old daughter. Yeah. And it's like, this is 1984.

[01:32:56] It costs like the equivalent of like 10 grand today. Well, David, let's not skip ahead because a thing that I had completely forgotten that I think is actually really key to this movie is starting with the Arthur C. Clarke interview. I think it is incredibly important.

[01:33:11] Arthur C. Clarke just raining threes. Everything he says is correct. Just really saying exactly what's going to happen. He might as well be like, you'll pay your bills with PayPal. He's literally like- You know, eBay is going to be the auction site.

[01:33:22] You won't have to work in an office anymore. You can live out in the country and work remotely. He's raining threes from like the concession stand. Like he's not even on the court. He's so far away and everyone is just like, interesting theory, Mr. Clarke.

[01:33:35] But basically, I do think he sets such a good context for what's going to drive Steve Jobs for the rest of this movie, which is like these people who see this is the future. This is the thing that fundamentally changes humanity and society.

[01:33:51] The greatest obstacle to that right now is that computers seem scary. They seem unfriendly, daunting. And they seem like for technical professionals who need them, but they don't seem like something casual. Here are all the functions that these will serve at some point to make our lives easier.

[01:34:07] But saying to this little kid, someday it's going to be this big and not this crazy room that looks like a dentist's office, right? Steve Jobs is just like obsessive about like, how do I get the thing that makes people feel comfortable?

[01:34:20] That they want to bring it to their home for the right price, the right functionality, the right look. He doesn't want the hobbyist and the hackers. He doesn't want it to be opened and he doesn't want it. Yes, like, you know, he was very...

[01:34:32] Like a computer for the people. Not to jump ahead, but the first PC my, sorry, the first computer my grandma ever bought was an iMac. The iMac. She's one of the 30% of people who had never owned a computer before.

[01:34:42] Exactly. That really was that moment where it's like my grandma in her 60s at that point was like, well, you got this internet now, I guess I should check it out. It finally seemed approachable to a lot of people.

[01:34:52] I want a computer that you plug it in, you plug the mouse in, you plug the keyboard in. That's all I have to do. It works and it connects to the internet and it gives me email. I remember when my...

[01:35:00] He was right in 84. It's just that nothing else was really ready for him there. I just remember blowing my fucking mind when my elementary middle school or whatever converted to iMacs.

[01:35:11] You walk in and now there's just like a lineup of iMacs and you're like, that's the whole thing? There's like nothing under the desk. There's nothing underneath. Yeah. There's no giant console. It's just this one thing that looks like candy.

[01:35:21] They were in our computer lab too and they looked so cool. They look so cool. That is the like Steve Jobs thing. Lisa Brandon Jobs is wrong. Is that it like has to look good and people have to like how it looks.

[01:35:32] That's why he changes out the fucking hydrangeas to the calla lilies in the middle section. Great unspoken thing that happens throughout the middle section. It's so smart and he's right. It does look better.

[01:35:42] This other thing he I think understood is like you only get one chance to make a first impression. And people remember the way these things...

[01:35:49] Because of course the central dilemma of the first act is that they need the Macintosh to say hello, which is what it did on stage. It has to be friendly. But it's like we've just seen the Arthur C. Clarke interview. This is the exact thing he's combating.

[01:36:01] It can't be Hal. Right. And Herzfeld, the programmer is like it's not going to happen. It's going to crash. It's not going to work. And he's like it better work and he's bullying him and he's controlling him. Right.

[01:36:13] I'm going to call you out on stage if it doesn't work. He lifts up Herzfeld's t-shirt and he goes which symbol is on your chest because he looks like a fucking Care Bear. Remind me are you like a four leaf clover or are you a rainbow?

[01:36:27] You got a lollipop tummy. That shot where Jobs is like threatening Herzfeld and the elevator is closing in on him as he shoots him with the finger. He's doing this. He's doing it to his own head. It looks so good.

[01:36:44] But that's also, that's the moment he's just taking the shirt off. He's just taking the shirt off. He's got the fucking guns and then when he puts the gun to his head he's flexing. Oh my god. It's too hot. It's too hot. So you got that going on.

[01:36:55] You've got him flipping out over the fact that Time Magazine has put a weird sculpture of a computer. He doesn't know it's a sculpture yet. He thought he was going to be man of the year and said person of the year is the computer.

[01:37:08] And he's blaming it on the fact. Another great job by Time Magazine. He's blaming it on the fact that Dan Kotke who we never see in the movie. There's all these people in the movie who we never actually see but are referenced constantly which I think is cool.

[01:37:22] But it's because he gave a quote about Chris-Anne and the paternity. And he's like this is why I'm not man of the year because now I'm some kind of bum father or whatever. Right.

[01:37:33] And he gave a quote, Jobs gave a quote to Time Magazine, an absolutely absurd quote that is a real quote he gave. Like oh this paternity test doesn't mean anything. Like if you do the math like 28% of American men could have been the dad. What is the number?

[01:37:46] It's like 94% chance. It's 94% accurate and he has somehow extrapolated that into. His argument is. The remaining 6% equals. 28% of American men. Right. But she interprets it as you think. You're calling me a slut. Right.

[01:38:00] Now Chris-Anne was this sort of like weird hippie lady he lived in a commune with. Again you should read Lisa's book if you're a nerd like me. She certainly was a complicated person it seems like. And a weird mom and chaotic, etc.

[01:38:15] But yeah he's essentially slandering her in the press. And as she's pointing out to him he's rich. So you know. He's incredibly rich. Step up. And everyone's talking about what a rich genius this man is.

[01:38:26] It's in the first section where he said now would be a good time to get in on Apple stock. Yes he does say that. Oh that's such a dick thing to say. He says a lot of dickish things to her. He's so dick to her. He's not nice.

[01:38:36] Yeah he's not very nice to her. It seems to be some kind of weird defense mechanism he has. Katherine Watterson's really good in this movie playing like. Yeah. What are you doing on your phone? Just doing the free spins on Disney Emoji Blitz so I get the diamonds.

[01:38:50] I was like it has to be something that depraved. It is. Yes. Hey thanks Steve Jobs. If it weren't for him I wouldn't be able to have two devices I could sync up with each other to get double diamonds. I don't even want to know.

[01:39:04] You do it on the iPhone and you do it on the iPad and you log into the same account so it lets you do it twice in one hour. This is scary. I'm not acknowledging. Spitting in his grave right now.

[01:39:12] What do you think of Katherine Watterson as Chris Ann Bratton? I always love her. Yeah me too. I think she's good. It's the toughest role in a way. It's the toughest role so I think she like. I don't know if she totally gets there for me personally.

[01:39:23] I think she's asked to do. She's asked to be like a sorkin woman which is you know hard. Pretty thankless job. She's complaining. She's like she's a complaining and she's crying and she has to be like.

[01:39:33] She has to be like the woman like Kate Winslet does not really have to know that's capital T capital W. Kate Winslet is like the conscience of the movie. Yeah exactly. And so I think Katherine Watterson has one of the hardest jobs in this movie and she

[01:39:45] does fairly well with it. But eventually she arrives with Lisa. Lisa is a five year old girl and Steve is so heartbreakingly mean to her horrendous something funny that Steve does is that I think Joanna says Chris Ann is here and he goes

[01:40:01] Brennan as if there is another Chris Ann. Yeah. He knows. Yes. He's such an asshole. He's such an asshole. And the fact that he keeps on like openly in front of his daughter saying she's not my daughter. Right.

[01:40:16] And that is where it's like this will stick to her forever. This is kind of a lifelong traumatic thing to hear. Right. She like plaintively says like you know oh so the lease is not named after me.

[01:40:26] And he's like no it's just a coincidence like you know because she'll actually listen. It's so much worse than that because everyone sort of goes like move on. Don't listen to him. No no no. You know what.

[01:40:37] I think we need to take the time to drill this into her head. And like I think this is part of why people don't like this movie because he is so acid like nasty in the first part of the film.

[01:40:48] Like it's not like he's like all you know giggles in the latter two acts but he does soften and evolve and like learn and there is some. But like he's really tough in the first act. He's pretty unlikable.

[01:41:00] So for people who aren't going to read the books like me. Why is he doing this. Well it's the great mystery of Steve Jobs. Like it's never really revealed or. It's some combination of he clearly feared initially like in his early years.

[01:41:15] Like he had had a baby in a commune with a woman he was sort of like not really you know like that they were kind of dating kind of. It was a commune right. And he clearly was like I'm famous now. I'm I'm the great Steve Jobs right.

[01:41:30] Like I can't have this ding dinging my kind of love child. Right. And also I'm sure he probably had like lawyers and himself being like well you don't want to you know don't don't pay any more than you have to. Right. Right.

[01:41:43] But the the the Lisa Brennan Jobs book is so that's the thing that's so painful is that he wouldn't acknowledge it for so long. Stuff like the computer which he like it took him like almost to the end of his life to finally

[01:41:57] be like yeah I named the computer after you. Where it's like everyone knew that already. You know what I mean. But like he would get weird and stubborn about it. Like this is the whole mystery of him. Why was he such a fucking asshole.

[01:42:09] And I think I think the movie I think Sorkin tries to be like well he got adopted by his family and then they gave him back. And this the book is very big on this too. He was very fucked up about that notion that he'd been returned.

[01:42:23] They gave him back and then his new parents had to like his new adoptive parents had to duke it out for a year in court to become his adoptive parents. Because they weren't viewed as good enough to be his parents.

[01:42:33] Because his birth mom was like they have to be Catholic. Yes. And middle class or whatever. They have to do certain college education. But adoptive parents weren't. And so he says in the movie my mom refused to love me for a year.

[01:42:45] And you know Jeff Daniels is like that you can't do that. And Steve Jobs says yes you can which I think is what he's trying to do with Lisa. Right. He's like I am trying. I'm closing that off. I'm not trying to love this child on purpose.

[01:42:58] And it kind of cracks a little bit when she does that little drawing on the back. Okay. So one of the greatest moments. Right. So he's got the Macintosh out and she's fooling around with it. And then she does a painting for him.

[01:43:10] That looks kind of like the iMac. I can't talk about this. I'm going to start crying. Someone else talk about it. Okay so she. No I want to force you to talk about it. I don't want David to cry. I want David to talk about it.

[01:43:20] I like burst into tears so many times during this movie. And it's always to do with the daughter. Talk about it. Well it's just it's the theme throughout the movie. They can only communicate through technology. Yes. Right. And not just through technology. Through his inventions.

[01:43:34] Like that's his ego right in the most spectacular way. Right. We are always just talking about his shit. And there's even that moment later where Kate Winslet's like talk to her about the things she likes. That's how you can communicate with your daughter.

[01:43:48] And that's when he talks to her about the song. Yeah. We can talk about that later. Both sides now. Almost everything else is her painting the abstract. Right. In the first act. Her asking about the cube and like the measurements of the cube in the second act.

[01:44:02] And then obviously a thousand songs in your pocket. Yeah. In the third act. But when she makes the abstract and the look on his face. Yeah. When he sees it. And that's the moment where he like he's he like looks at her and then he makes her type

[01:44:18] her name in and you can see in the shot. Her mother's name because that's her last name. And but you can see in the when the camera is behind them looking at the screen he's

[01:44:27] just like staring at her and they there's just so many good shots of Fassbender like looking at this girl and being like fuck she is smart. She isn't just like which is the thing that almost hurts him the most to. Yeah. And that's right.

[01:44:41] And that moment which everyone is saying like this girl is just like you don't understand that moment where he turns around and says she's using Mac paint. Right. And he's like glowing and then he suddenly goes like I'll buy you a house. Yeah. Pay for everything.

[01:44:54] You got to go to school. But it's like this odd thing of like he is equally proud that the computer works in the way he would and that she is smart enough to know how to use it. And the two things communicate. Exactly.

[01:45:07] His entire philosophy of like I need to do this not because I want to be seen as a genius not because I want to make a billion dollars but because I actually think there is like

[01:45:16] that can be unlocked by giving putting these in front of kids the tools you know anywhere in the world. Right. What suddenly can happen and it's like in that one moment he sees the thing that he's

[01:45:25] been fighting for for like 10 to 15 years that's still 10 to 15 years away from actually really working on the skill he wants it to. But it crystallizes the whole thing for him of like I'm not wrong. No. This can work right.

[01:45:37] Like he says with the what is the name of the ship when they're in the next section the spaceship the Skylab the Skylab and he's like the eight years away thing it's like they're 15 years away. Right. Yes but they actually will figure out how to get it down.

[01:45:52] Yes. Yes. He's the thing right now is literally just too expensive. Like that was the problem the Macintosh it costs so much that only computer hobbyists are going to use it right. Computer hobbyists were like what the fuck is this thing I can't even customize. Yeah.

[01:46:04] Put my favorite two hickeys in it. Right. And so a sound card in but all these balances of life. Is it better to have the price be devoured but for it to have no memory. Right. It's a crappy thing.

[01:46:15] The right shape or size that it's inviting into people's homes but it doesn't run all these. This is always been the Apple thing. It's like you pay this premium for something that does what other products do. And Steve Jobs would be like yeah but it does it better.

[01:46:28] And you'd be like well sure but I don't have another 500 bucks Steve you know or whatever you know like and that was the thing with this fuck. And then and you'd also be like why why doesn't it do this one thing that I really want to

[01:46:38] it's like well that's not our philosophy. Yeah. Right. And then sometimes you'd be like I don't want you to do that. Yeah. Which we decide the disks don't exist anymore. One of the most interesting things about the iPhone was that you couldn't look at porn on it.

[01:46:50] And I remember and that was late in Steve Jobs's life like some tech reporter like texting with jobs. Yeah. Come on Steve. Like people are grown ups like you know can they make these decisions for themselves. He's like yeah I don't think so. I don't think they should.

[01:47:01] You know like he just fundamentally. Maybe right about that one. No. This is the thing. Sometimes you're like well I mean I don't know about the porn thing but just like I don't know about the porn thing but just in general like sometimes you're kind of like

[01:47:10] yeah maybe we don't need like that. Well that's that is like the thing about this movie is that he's usually right. Like outside of outside of in his interpersonal relationships he is almost always wrong. And when it comes to Apple he is almost always right.

[01:47:26] And when you see him in his house like these the flat you know where it's like which is apparently how he lived like there would be no furniture in the house and they'd be like where's your furniture. He's like it's hard to pick a sofa.

[01:47:35] But there is a giant. It's not that hard you're rich. A giant light up Picasso. But that is the genius of the guy where like he could look at any situation and be like

[01:47:44] here's the thing in terms of how this is going to work six months into someone doing this every day. Right. He had such intelligence about like what are human behaviors. What are wants. What are needs. Things that are almost unspoken. The annoyances.

[01:47:58] The one extra step that drives people insane that slowly like gnaws at you. And how do you circumvent that or how do you solve the problem. People haven't even identified they need solve for them yet.

[01:48:10] But yes it's all in service of this idea of like making lives easier for people making them happier. A thing he has no ability to do as a human being. He only makes people more miserable and stressed out. It's having empathy for the consumer. Yes.

[01:48:24] Consumer empathy and zero empathy for anyone he actually knows firsthand. That's what's so frustrating. Right. And that's what makes it so good. But like tech guys like Wozniak are caught up in the potential of like what could this

[01:48:36] do and thinking about like the arms race against the other tech guys. And he's like I'm thinking of the consumer. I'm thinking of David's grandmother 20 years from now. You know. Yeah. And like what's going to confuse her.

[01:48:48] And how can a guy be that thoughtful and also be like I'm going to say to this five year old to her face that I'm not her dad. And you ask like how is that even possible. There's that exchange that he and Winslet have later in the movie.

[01:49:00] What's the term she keeps on using like selective illusion or something like that. Reality distortion. Reality distortion. That's what everyone at Apple talked about. Yeah. But that was also that it's like that what that referred to is that people would come

[01:49:12] to jobs and he would be like I want you to do this in three months and they'd be like well that's literally impossible. Yeah. I can't do that. Like I can't design them three months and he'd be like yes you can. You know.

[01:49:23] And they would kind of get sucked into it because they'd be near him. Yeah. And that that was part of his charm or his magic or whatever is that you get sucked into the reality distortion field. Did any of you watch the I.L.M. documentary. No.

[01:49:34] It's so fucking good David. I just watched Steve Jobs again. Yeah. Here's what you should watch next. I.L.M. documentary. But there's a part where Dennis Muren is talking about on Empire Strikes Back they're working on a shot.

[01:49:47] George decided he wanted like an extra establishing shot of the Hoth landscape where the camera is sort of like a helicopter shot overhead. And then he was like could we get Luke in the Tauntaun going by tiny in the middle of the shot.

[01:50:01] He's like this is an actual shot. This is a real shot. I can't just add the stop motion element to it here. Right. And he was just like well how would you go about it. And he's like it's George. It's impossible. You didn't storyboard it this way.

[01:50:15] We didn't shoot the plate in the way that it was conducive. And he was like George said to me OK we'll just just think on it. And I was like it's impossible. He's like I hear you just think on it. And he was like George walked away.

[01:50:27] I sat there stewing for 15 minutes the arrogance of him not accepting me speaking from a place of knowledge which he did not have. George did not understand. We get you any of this technology. And then 15 minutes and I went oh fuck there's one way to do it.

[01:50:40] And I solved it. And he was like I never ever would have gotten there if he hadn't said that exact thing to me. Even like it's sort of a flip of the jobs thing but like the if he had yelled at me

[01:50:53] and screamed at me or had even been kinder be like try your hardest. I would have never gotten to it. And it was the fact that his only path was just like well think about it. See what happens.

[01:51:05] Jobs was sort of like the more extreme hostile version of that which is like here's what I want. Everyone go like that is not grounded in reality distortion field. It's impossible. It's just like well figure out how it's out. It's not my job to figure it out.

[01:51:18] My job is to tell you what I do have to have the idea and you figure it out. Kind of a sick job if you have that talent just to be the person who's like OK what if there was an iPod. Can I come in with this.

[01:51:32] What is that job very similar to being a film director. Well sure. That's a little bit of the ball though. Although Boyle is obviously the opposite of this where he's like I'm not a dictator. I operate from kindness. I try to operate from kindness.

[01:51:45] I try to have good relationships with people. I mean I think he's injecting so much empathy into the film. Of course. I work. I love David Fincher. Yes I love them. And it's I do not think he makes like emotionally distant movies.

[01:51:57] There's a lot of emotion closer to a Jobs. Yeah. I don't know what his version of the Jobs Lisa relationship comes out as you know I mean like but when when Wozniak says the thing to him of like it's not binary. Yeah.

[01:52:13] You can be you can be a genius and be nice at the same time. It's like that's the thing that Boyle as a person is arguing for in this movie while making a movie about a guy who didn't think that was possible or at least didn't practice

[01:52:23] because that's what the director job is. It's a George Lucas story of like I need to get 18 different things done to realize some vision without necessarily understanding each of these jobs firsthand. What do you want to say.

[01:52:34] What I was going to say is that in preparation for this I went back and listened to my other favorite podcast What the Fuck with Mark Maron and I listened to the Danny Boyle episode that where he went on promoting this movie.

[01:52:47] Mark Maron by the way loves this movie. Yeah. But Danny Boyle is like most of my movies are about redemption like that's like the Catholic in me that like they're at the end of this movie there is some sense that like

[01:53:02] through this father daughter relationship something has been achieved. Achieved. And I just don't know that Fincher can really like get there. Who knows. There's like there is like a slight like gooey center to this movie. Yes. Like way way way way way too much criticized at the time.

[01:53:21] Turned off at the time now I think is essential. But that's harder for Fincher to get. I mean it's a movie that doesn't exist. I'd love to see some version of it. Fincher likes bottled emotions. Yeah.

[01:53:34] Like he likes people's inability to actually say the thing right versus this is a movie about a guy who needs to in some way admit acknowledge. Right. The only other big thing in the first act that we haven't really talked about yet is

[01:53:48] Mosniak of course lovely was who always appears the same way. Hey hey Steve really excited for you know like and he's like can you just can you just shout out the Apple to the Apple to you guys know an Apple to look like. Yeah.

[01:54:04] Only because I looked it up. It had the green screen eventually like the hacker screen. Yes yes. Really all the Apple to is is this huh. Is this. Yeah you know you could hook it up to whatever you wanted. Whatever monitor you wanted.

[01:54:20] You could play games on it. You can play a lot. It had lots of slots which is what they're arguing over. Slots. What is what is it like people love slots. Because like was is a computer nerd. Right. It's the fucking 70s. Yeah.

[01:54:36] If you're a computer nerd you're basically like a metal engineer. Right. You know like I mean it's so hard. It's like hot rodders like they want to soup up their cars. You know the game breakout. You know do you know with Steve Wozniak program that game. Wow.

[01:54:49] It's one of the first ever video games. That was a was joint. Yeah damn. Were you about to say what were people doing on these things. Well I was saying more what are you doing with eight slots. You know you have fucking cassettes that you could run. Right.

[01:55:03] And like you would plug in game controller. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know what they did with those. I'm not a computer hobbyist. I don't know man. My dad had this stuff it was called a side quest and it was magnetic tape. Right.

[01:55:21] And it was the like the most memory you could get on a portable whatever drive disk. You get eight megabytes. You get eight megabytes and it was huge. It's the size of a computer now. That's like you know the hardcore people who are using

[01:55:33] computers at this point in time. Most of the things that would take advantage of those slots were failed technologies that would be like you know out of here within a year or whatever. But people wanted to be testing out every new idea that

[01:55:46] someone had for an add on. And the idea of for that extreme kind of consumer there's a certain Wozniak level of Steve Jobs empathy for consumer of like don't make them have to swap it out all the time. Right.

[01:56:02] Well yeah yes but the Apple 2 at that time obviously is the big seller for them because that's the computer market. But Steve doesn't want to acknowledge that. No that's the best. He didn't he didn't do anything. He didn't do anything.

[01:56:16] He's not part of it and also he doesn't want his cool product to be associated with that computer dork thing. Anyway they're hoping the Macintosh is going to sell a million units. It doesn't. It was a flop because it was too expensive.

[01:56:28] Oh oh and of course Jeff Daniels is there. That's the other right. Jeff Daniels the big thing with him in the first act is they're talking about the Ridley Scott directed 1984 ad starring skin heads which which had some skin heads enjoying a 55 Margo.

[01:56:43] They're having a 55 Margo and they've got this whole father son thing right. You know it's very obvious. You guys want a glass. One of the funniest exchanges of dialogue in this movie is when they're talking about the bet that Hertzfeld had made that Jobs

[01:56:59] was going to switch the verse from the Bob Dylan song. And he's in jobs is like why why would Hertzfeld make that bet. And he says because he was warning me that like being your father figure is going to be a bad shake.

[01:57:13] And then Jobs like tries to go yell at Hertzfeld and Jeff just like turns back and he's like I'm proud of you. Like immediately snapping into father mode. Yeah. You're just really it really works for me and it makes me kind of giggle every time.

[01:57:28] Daniels is just so in the pocket on on the the Sorkin thing at this moment. He is really making a meal out of everything he is asked to do in this movie. I remember reading some interview with Daniels. Giles be going crazy. He'd be jowling all over.

[01:57:44] I always every time I look at Daniels at any age my favorite first thought is golden retriever. Yeah sure. I mean I just kind of like in terms of endearment or whatever. Right. Yeah. But he looks like a golden retriever you know when a golden

[01:58:02] retriever gets old and now. Yeah right. That's the thing I'm like returns from dear mom like oh it's a young plucky. And then this year like it's some old dragon is high and legs die. Right. We're like yeah. I remember an interview with him.

[01:58:19] I think it was when this movie was coming out but also maybe there was another newsroom season or it was ending or whatever it was. He was doing like a career overview thing and they asked him about working with Sorkin because he had had such a good

[01:58:30] kind of connection with him at this point. And then they do to kill him looking bird after this. But he was just like the whole thing is I just threw my pen in theory. He's like the whole thing is you just have to know the dialogue

[01:58:42] so well like you need to wrestle this stuff down. It's really precise. It's really specific. It's really rhythmic and you need to know it's so dead to rights backwards and forwards that then you can play with it

[01:58:53] and do anything with it because you're not going to play with the language you can play with how you you dance around it. That's the thing I remember him saying he's like then you can dance on it.

[01:59:04] And I was just that sure that is really what he's doing. Daniel's doing a soft shoe on top of like a Sorkin script. Yeah. How do you guys feel about the the Sorkin script. Boyle projection like when he's projecting the lyrics to the

[01:59:18] Bob Dylan song of any of that shit. And then in the second act where he shows the Skylab on the Paul that's the breaking reality. It was a movie baby. It was a thing that I don't know if it bugged me the first

[01:59:29] time I saw but it was sort of that thing of like both feels like a weird choice for this material and I'm going to see it and I'm like why did Boyle make this. And then those things start happening and I was like he couldn't help himself.

[01:59:39] But now I think it's more of a piece. Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's kind of insane. But I also think it's like unlike anything else. Probably like the most famous ad. Right. Yeah. In the world. Like it's incredible.

[01:59:58] But also they're right about it where it's like the ad was a massive success as a piece of film making that did nothing for the brand or the product. It worked mostly as an advertisement for itself.

[02:00:06] It did plant Apple in the name like the name in the head. It was a success but it was not a success the way of corporate board might perceive it because the Macintosh didn't sell. But if the Macintosh didn't sell because it cost too much more. Yeah. Fundamentally.

[02:00:20] Yeah. The ad rules Ridley Scott. Yeah we'll do it one day when we do him. Sure. We'll do the 1984 ad. I'm going to throw a hammer. It'll be great. Act two. Yes I know. No no I know I know I know we've been talking for a long time.

[02:00:40] Can we say I just want to quickly say at two points look we recorded for real we recorded for 127 straight hours and that was real and it was great and it was really seamless. We really leaned into it really leaned into it and it was clean

[02:00:49] and we didn't forget to track the logic of it at times. I have strep. Of course at two different times Ben has pitched one doing the entire episode on treadmills. Yes. That was a pitch at one point.

[02:01:04] How many times could I go walk and talk the whole episode which David David steps in. Yeah. Absolutely. But David's argument was it would be too loud would be very loud. Those things are not quite as loud.

[02:01:17] And then my pitch at one point in time and it was you basically said I don't want this bit to overpower the things I actually have to say about this movie. Right. My bit was the episode was three acts in three different time

[02:01:31] periods of doing this podcast with three different guests. Yeah. And we made the audio quality better as it went along. And we treated the first act like we were in the closet at UCB. And then someone came in and canceled us and said Danny Boyle miniseries over.

[02:01:45] It's a failure and it had taken us eight years to get to the final episode. But thankfully we settled on we're all wearing turtlenecks. Yeah. So good. And we're all wearing glasses. We should have just all done mild Polish accents. Steve what's the matter with you.

[02:02:01] What I've been doing the Polish accent the entire time. I swear this time I was kind of like maybe it's just that it's thickest in the first act. I think by the last act it's gone and that's good.

[02:02:09] I think it's fine because she's lived in America for more years. And then it comes on like a video of the real Joanna Hoffman. Kate Winslet is doing a good job. It's just that it sounds weird when you see Kate Winslet.

[02:02:21] One second before filming they were like oh and like kind of do like a Polish thing. There is that thing with people who are like deeply Americanized but haven't totally lost their accent where it's not there in every syllable and it's in and out.

[02:02:32] I do agree with you though David that I was thinking the exact same thing and then start of Act 3 it's really heavy. And you're like this is where it starts to become a bit like a bit of a stretch because you need that great line about

[02:02:41] like the broad European tragedy of your life or whatever. Like I'm not from a shadow. The broad Eastern European canvas of your life. But Act 2 is when she's kind of not even bothering. Sorry Act 2. Yes Act 2 at the San Francisco Opera House. The music is suddenly strings.

[02:02:58] I was gonna say she's not even bothering but isn't that when she's or is it Act 1 where Lisa says like I like the way you sound. She says that to her in Act 1 and she replies Thank you. That's the nicest thing anyone's ever said to me which is

[02:03:11] very yeah but no Act 2 obviously it's the it's the opera house. They're launching the next Steve Jobs has been fired from Apple. He's got this kind of slick back hair. The brown contact lenses Michael Fassbender is wearing are suddenly really popping.

[02:03:27] Yeah he looks kind of like a shark. I have always contended he is a scary looking man. He's a scary looking man. He has a shark smile. He has a shark smile and he's got pointy teeth. Yes he's got pointy teeth and especially when his eyes are

[02:03:41] blue they look a little too blue. No Buffalo Bill. Who's the Manhunter one. Oh fucking God why can I not do very to fairy. Thank you. You know the other the other hand. Yes yes. And so now Lisa is nine. Her relationship with Steve is clearly better.

[02:04:02] Two hundred thirty four diamonds by the way. Now I'm going to sync with the iPad so I'll keep people updated. I'll get me at least one diamond box. He is like chilled out on her a little bit. They're better. He is also in chilled out mode.

[02:04:16] Yes because as he slowly reveals he basically knows this thing he's launching is basically just kind of like a test bullet. It's not really right designed for commercial. It's designed to have an OS that does not exist yet. That will eventually get sold to Apple.

[02:04:30] And this is of course when I start ranting to my wife about how if you look at next OS which is what eventually they did create for it. It is this. Yeah it's this. Yeah and I was just like that.

[02:04:40] It's really it's the first version of this and it's still what you fucking use. And then I picked up my phone and I was like he's everywhere. And you filed for divorce. The Internet was created on it. Yes it was. Yeah that is absolutely right.

[02:04:54] Tim Berners-Lee who will be saluted in Danny Boyle's Olympic ceremony. Wow. Use the next computer to create the World Wide Web. Yeah. That way who's the guy who did IBM Bill Gates. He's Microsoft. But sure yeah well whatever. Yeah in your face. It's different. Well they're very different.

[02:05:13] What do you mean I forget it. And so what happens in this in this act Griffin like what are the key. If you know Chris and seems a little more unstable this time. Yes. Jobs is kind of freaked out by just how you know weirdly she's using money

[02:05:29] says maybe she threw a cereal bowl at her daughter. Right. There's kind of the you know the daughter seems much more settled. The years long sinus infection that began. Yeah. This is the story. She needs to see a doctor and a dentist.

[02:05:45] And he says I dropped out of college after one semester but I'll give it a look. Yes which is funny. This is also the act in which he puts his feet in the toilet bowl which is something that Jobs would really do.

[02:05:53] It's so weird that that is not explained. I mean I get a lot of things in this movie that aren't really explained. I feel like the first time you watch that movie you're like what the fuck is he doing. Yes.

[02:06:04] It feels like something someone who took too much LSD would do which might be. Well he took a lot of LSD. He took a lot. He took a lot. I like that he flushes after he washes them. Yeah. Good for him. What did you get in there.

[02:06:21] Another thing I like is when he's with Lisa alone in the dressing room in this movie and they're talking about the cube and she's measuring it with the ruler. Right. And she says what did she say if I had another ruler I'd measure this ruler

[02:06:29] which is a very Steve Jobs thing to say. It is very like oh these two are more similar than he would like them. She's fascinated by the. And she's a little sorkin baby. Yeah she's a little sorkin baby though. If she can do the patter with him. Yeah.

[02:06:45] Because he sort of explained to her like well it was actually a perfect cube it would look weird so it has to be like this. And she's like I don't know my ruler needs a 27th ruler.

[02:06:51] It's that thing where he's like he's sending so many people away in annoyance for saying the wrong thing to him. Right. And she's like I'm actually combating him. Right. But he kind of tolerates it more because she's making like the Jobsian argument. She's getting in his head. Right.

[02:07:09] But there's yeah so there's that tension. The big sort of thing that has to be fleshed out in flashback and argument is that John Scully ousted him slash the board ousted him whatever you know like that's there.

[02:07:22] That's the big showdown of this act is them screaming at each other in the room full of chairs. Oh when this scene starts my heart starts racing. Yes. So good. It's like first of all it looks silly at first with the chairs the chairs look

[02:07:36] silly and then it looks and then you realize you're in for like a verbal Western duel sort of thing where like they're far away from each other and they're coming in and then they're going to just like fucking explode. I was just going to dance on it.

[02:07:50] He dances on it. My shit is still somewhere in Shanghai. Yeah like right. The flashback with like the rain pouring down the window and they're in the dark room and the Dutch angles like from above Jobs being like you can't fire me.

[02:08:05] Jeff Daniels being like well this guy is out of control. It is a thing I think this movie does very well is the rare times it does cut away. It knows what it does jump into a brief flashback.

[02:08:15] It was and jobs in the garage arguing over the slots. You need to see the outstaying. You need to see the dinner. You need to see the dinner. You need to see the dinner. You need to see the dinner. You need to see the dinner.

[02:08:31] And then you're like oh my God. I need to see the dinner. Yeah. You absolutely do. Well it gets the yeah the other major thing in act two is my still Mark that he shows up very briefly. He shows up there. He's just fooling around.

[02:08:48] Yeah he's like oh let me see the man. He shows up to show them the like Macworld right. And then he's like oh my God. They keep on saying like why are was and still work here. I don't know. No he's just mad that they're still at Apple.

[02:08:59] He's kind of sure. And that was like when Steve got pushed out. All right. It was gave him in the press. Yeah right. I was gave a quote and then and he's like Jeff Daniels made you do that. Yeah.

[02:09:14] And then he tells Jeff Daniels he's like don't don't do that to Rain Man or whatever he calls him Rain Man. He's like I love that guy no matter what happens. I'm like you can't send him to do that. Right.

[02:09:23] That's the great scene with was where was has the watch that has the two crazy tubes in it. And I explained this to me and he's like you don't understand this is the future of tech. And Steve Jobs is essentially like do change one thing on.

[02:09:36] He's like it's fine it's fine. You just like a screwdriver. The fucking job genius is like a great sees what we need a thing to do and be he sees the flaws in other products of like the thing you're not thinking about that he can recognize immediately.

[02:09:47] This is the scene where fucking Rogan takes it to the paint. I think he takes it to the paint in the final act too. Yeah I think this is for me to use Jeff Daniels his terms. He's dancing on it. He's dancing.

[02:10:02] I get kind of choked up on this monologue because I think his there are ways in which his voice cracks. Yeah most of it plays out in a long shot. He has such an express they do long sort of extended takes but you're not

[02:10:12] going to close up of him. And so you're really feeling him in the moment. Some of the monologue in real time like they're letting the performance dictate the flow of the scene. The other thing and maybe it's why I'm like so bullish on this performance

[02:10:24] but I think it's so impressive. Brogan gets announced and you're like yeah that kind of makes if you need to get a famous person play was the extra that sort of makes sense. How is he going to fit into the Sorkin thing right. Right.

[02:10:35] For someone who has such a specific rhythm of dialogue right has his own comedy stylings his own speed his own way of talking most of the time he's in he writes himself. Yeah. Here's a guy who's got an entirely different clip and Rogan also is a guy

[02:10:48] who like improvises a lot and riffs a lot and it's not about precision acting you know it's like vibe feeling it out throwing stuff at the wall. And now it's like you have to deliver like a five page Sorkin monologue that just like builds and builds in intensity.

[02:11:03] And but don't overplay it. Part of the Sorkin thing is everything's a little bit tossed off. And I think that's what I'm trying to do. Part of the Sorkin thing is everything's a little bit tossed off.

[02:11:12] And it is that thing where as the speech goes on and he like starts revealing sort of his complicated relationship with this guy who he always has simultaneously loved and hated and knows he knows better than anyone else.

[02:11:26] And his breath starts like picking up in his voice starts cracking. I find it so heartbreaking. Absolutely. It's really moving. Yeah. It's like a really moving scene. He does have this guy pegged better than anyone else in the entire movie.

[02:11:40] Because he knew him before he was fully Steve Jobs. Even better than Winslet whose job is to like understand him on a day to day basis. Well but Rogan's like I know who you are at a core level. Right. Winslet. Hoffman just has like bulletproof armor. Right.

[02:11:56] So all his nonsense she's just like yeah yeah yeah. OK OK OK. But yeah now Steve can we Steve please. But no. I mean I was just to give you some you know Rogan apparently really good at learning lines.

[02:12:08] Fassbender said he's was jealous at how good Rogan was at mastering dialogue. He was obsessed. He like obsessively watched lots of Wozniak footage to try and get out with the real ones that the real. Look I love Steve Wozniak as a legend of computing.

[02:12:22] We could hang out with him. The guy is like accessible. He went on Shark Tank to pitch a product that was so bad. He's like he was he was the one going up being like sharks. I have an idea.

[02:12:32] It was he was like one of the main investors in a product and it was the other guy's company and he came in and was like advising against a deal. And the product was a jacket to hold all of your devices. So just like a jacket with pockets.

[02:12:47] But it was like it's designated pocket. So there's an inner pocket that is laptop size. He still has it. You want to carry your. He'll never learn. He'll never learn. It was right. And he's like I fully believe this is the future of technology.

[02:13:01] And Mark Cuban is kind of impressed. Was there is like was come on. Like what are you talking about. And then this guy is like I have five patents and he's like what the fuck are your patents.

[02:13:12] And he's like to run cables for devices in the lining of fabric. Cool. Sure. It's like this is exactly what's wrong with America. I cannot believe they would give you a patent for that. And the guy's like well can you blame me. He's like I do blame you.

[02:13:28] And then Steve Woz used to date Kathy Griffin right. Hell yeah. That rule is kind of a feature of her TV show My Life on the D-list. He was on it a lot. A classic show. I think it was just like the classic just around Hawaiian shirt guy.

[02:13:41] Everyone thinks he's fun. He was on Dancing with the Stars. You know he's cheerful. One thing Rogan says that's interesting is like the none of this dialogue is written as someone who has now studied Steve Wozniak. Right. I mean it's not his voice.

[02:13:57] It's Sorkin is Sorkin for you know. But but you know he's he's you know in saying all these things that clearly are part of the drama of Steve Wozniak. Yeah. Which is very interesting. And Josh Gabb played this part. He sure did. Yes he did.

[02:14:17] You know Rogan doesn't really look like Wozniak at all. But I do like this Boyle quote where he's basically like there is something essentially Woz-like about him. Yes. He's like a cheery guy with a bearded guy with like a rounder build.

[02:14:29] This was before Seth Rogen really like trimmed down to. Yeah he's kind of mid trim. Yeah. Well he had trimmed more for Green Hornet and then kind of right a little more back to normal. And now he's like Svelte. Now he's like a Svelte vegan who does pottery.

[02:14:45] Right. And is like low key. I mean he's always been hot. But also his beard is huge in this movie. And he's like a bearded rounder like real Woz. Yeah. Yeah. OK. But yes the big the Skylab monologue with the Skylab going by.

[02:15:02] And I do think about Skylab all the time that we shot it into space and we were like we'll figure it out. Probably know how to get it back. We'll invent how to get it back right. And then just that's what next is.

[02:15:14] But yes he sees Apple's failure in the horizon and he sees their need for him on the horizon. And it's all going to come back together. And the third act is them launching the iMac. He has finally achieved everything he's wanted. Yes.

[02:15:30] Do you want to talk about the both sides now conversation at all or should we? I love that. I love when he says it's not a really old song unless I'm a really old guy. I love that too. So right.

[02:15:43] That is the crucial thing we've not talked about in the second act is that of course he tries to engage with her. What are you listening to? And Joanna's advice he's like I'm going to talk to her about her things.

[02:15:51] And she explains that she's listening to a song. A really old song. Two versions of the same really old song. Right. Now what do we think the two versions are? Well one the first one is Joni Mitchell. One of them is the Joni Mitchell.

[02:16:05] But that's the later one. The original both sides now is I have it here. Hold on because I listen to. Judy Collins. Yes that's right. And Joni Mitchell is regretful. Yes. You're too young to be regretful.

[02:16:22] So the second time I saw was that when she says that and then she comes and hugs him and says she wants to live with him. That part really breaks my heart. Yeah. It's like oh God. Your mom is difficult but it's like so is your dad.

[02:16:36] But like going to him didn't saying that is like heartbreaking. Well seeing how awful. He's more protective of her at this point. Yes. He's always making up for mistakes from the last time. So this time he's giving them money.

[02:16:50] He's given them security but now he's like God you live with her and she's crazy. He doesn't know how to deal with that. And in the next one he finally is like do you want to watch backstage with me.

[02:17:00] You know like he's doing things that she wants to do in the second act. Like in the third act. I'll say this too. Going back to Ben's question of like how is it possible. Like how does he fucking deny her for this long. He doesn't.

[02:17:14] He's like doing things. It's so much about his like supporting her and seeing her. His own sense of myth making around himself. Right. He doesn't want to accept the elements that aren't part of the narrative that he thinks helps the idea of what Steve Jobs is.

[02:17:28] Like he tells Scully in the last bit I think it's all about control. It's all about control. He has no control over this like aspect of his life. But over himself. Yeah. He's poorly made.

[02:17:42] And then like the denial of the daughter it's like he doesn't want to acknowledge having been with Chris and to a degree. Yeah. No that's embarrassing for him too. That's true. He doesn't want to have to be associated with her for the rest of his life.

[02:17:55] The kid he is. Yeah. But he doesn't. Yeah. Yeah exactly. OK so the third act is Davie Symphony Hall doing the IMAC. You see him doing the run a show. He's got the turtleneck. He's got the turtleneck. He's wearing like a dumpy suit in real life. Correct.

[02:18:16] But they boil and fastbender are both like he needs to fucking wear the Steve. You need to end it with him. It would look ridiculous if he was look up what he was actually wearing. So it would look so bad if he actually wore that in the movie.

[02:18:26] I mean act two suits pretty dumpy. Oh the double breasted. And the fucking tucker curls. The bow tie isn't tailored at all. It's like hanging over his shoes. It's not great. No.

[02:18:40] And we see him doing I like that we finally see a minute of the keynote from this one just as he's rehearsing it. So you see the IMAC. Yeah. You see the video. You see him practicing. Exactly. Right.

[02:18:54] And you see because we never actually see the keynotes cutting right before. And you see the lights going to black. And what was different about it this time. I like Sarah's. Actually turn the exit signs off which is definitely not true. Sorry. Yes. I'm looking at the suit.

[02:19:10] I mean it's 1998. Yeah. Wow. Did you have an IMAC. Anyone have an IMAC. No. OK. Cool. I had one. Yeah. What color was it. It was blue. The original. Yeah. Yeah. And I was I remember that day. It was so exciting. But did you guys.

[02:19:42] Are you saying that snap bracelets would understand. Sorry. Yeah. Sorry. We're both rushing. Did you guys have a computer room. Yes. Yes. Because that's not a room anymore for people. No. No. But I know we didn't. But of course most of my friends did. Yes. Like right.

[02:20:08] It's like not a den not an office. Go play the flight simulator. Yeah. Pretty fish good pull. Yeah. Did you have a computer room. But but wait what age did you get the IMAC in your room. Because I got my computer in my room when I was 15.

[02:20:23] You guys all had computers in your room. Olivia I pulled a heist because my parents also were like no TV in your room. Absolutely not. And on no computer. But then when I became the editor of my high school newspaper. I was like well now I need one.

[02:20:38] You need it for school. I need to work on it at home. And they're like OK we'll get you like a Dell. Yeah. You know like a desktop computer. And I was like yeah. Oscar forums. Yeah. MSN Messenger. Yeah. The little dork I was.

[02:20:59] I think my my my grandparents got me a Sony Vio when I was in high school. Wow like James Bond. Like James Bond. It is funny that Sony wanted to make this movie when it is about one of their great competitors. Yeah.

[02:21:08] You never had a computer in your room. No but I think I got a laptop at some point when I was like 16 maybe. And that was in my room. I got it at 13. Wow. Immediately got into trouble. Oh no. And I'm not going to define what that is.

[02:21:27] But it could be a lot of things. Various different various things. Yeah. Yeah. But why was the Internet the Wild West in those days? It was really crazy. Yeah it really was. You could really just oh my God. Doody dot com.

[02:21:44] I've seen a lot of the most fucked up shit in my life and like the early 2000s era of the Internet on the family computer in the computer room praying my parents weren't like around the corner.

[02:21:52] But that was also the era where people would like come to me like there's bad shit on the Internet. You're like no way. So normal. Or they'd like send you a random link over AI.

[02:22:02] And then you'd click it and it'd be the most vile shit you've ever seen. Now we know that shit out there so we work hard to avoid it. Back then you were almost like. Is that allowed? God remember chain mail. Oh yeah.

[02:22:15] But I also do you remember physical chain mail. I got physical chain letters. Oh yeah. I thought you were talking about the night stuff. That too. That's how old David is. That's the kind of chain mail he just talked about. That stuff's heavy.

[02:22:31] Apple just called me really freaky. What? Really? My headphones have been fixed or whatever. Okay so the key drama is here. Sure. Steve's in a fight with Lisa over her college tuition because her mother sold the house he bought for them. He's being a petty.

[02:22:50] And he kind of lashed out and is not paying. And so Andy sent them a check. Andy sent them a check in a move that is kind of half sweet half kind of a passive aggressive. But I also think it really reinforces the fact that Chris Ann is.

[02:23:03] There's a world outside of Steve. That's like we're aware that Steve is a very difficult father figure. Right.

[02:23:11] And there's this whole terse conversation where Andy's like yes I did recommend she go into therapy and yes it was partly because she does not have like a male figure in her life. And she would love if you and Chris Ann joined her.

[02:23:20] Which sounds like the worst hour of my life. Yeah seriously. I'm the therapist. I'm like jumping out the window like fucking Max von Syd. And then the end slate reveals. Sorry Jason Miller. What the magazine cover was a sculpture of a computer.

[02:23:34] She kind of like does a thing where she's like they didn't switch that in at the last minute. Right. Right. You never were person of the year.

[02:23:44] She and him have a really like when they're in that dressing room have a really great like Ted Ted moment where she forces him to like figure shit out with Lisa. It's another moment that makes me cry.

[02:23:53] It's when yes it's when he's being such a baby about Lisa. And then she starts she starts pushing the stupid Apple profile pictures of geniuses. That part is a little. On to the ground. No you don't like that.

[02:24:11] I just I just think it whenever someone like throws shit off of a desk in a movie I'm like OK. I just like that she knows that that will upset him. Yes. He's like my perfect my Alan Turing nine by fours.

[02:24:20] Well that's sorry there's that moment to where John Ortiz asked him who the picture is and it's Alan Turing. And he goes but he's not part of the campaign. Why. Because I just had to explain to you who he was.

[02:24:31] But as Steve Jobs was obsessed with Alan Turing. Of course. Yes. The urban legend. Yeah. Yeah. Right. But are you talking about the moment where she says being a father is supposed to be the best thing in someone's life. With tears in her eyes.

[02:24:46] It's this sort of weird obviously this is a movie about press conferences. But still she's like with tears in her eyes. America's Greatest Pastime. Right. I have been the guilty party to this.

[02:24:55] I have been like silently enabling you for all these years and I'm so guilty about it because you're such a horrible father. And like you know I've been watching you be a bad dad. Right. Like that's basically what she's saying. Yes.

[02:25:08] But yes when I cry is when she says what you make isn't supposed to be the best of you when you're a father. That's what's supposed to be the best. And for you it's the worst is the last part of that line.

[02:25:16] And it's so clearly like right out of Sorkin's brain. Yeah. You know what I mean. It's like so. What was her personal life like in real. She's like a fucking chiller. Chiller. The chillest chiller. You want me to look her up? Yeah.

[02:25:33] She's the daughter of an incredible Polish director. Okay. Jersey Hoffman I believe is his name. Does she have like kids in a family? She has two kids in the family. She's an absolute fucking chiller. I'm sorry. You're getting choked up thinking about her being a chiller.

[02:25:48] No. My voice is like so destroyed. No. Married to Alain Rossmann a native of France who worked at the Mac team. Okay. She has two sons with him.

[02:25:59] I'm seeing here that she is extraordinarily rich just like pretty much every character in this movie because of the profits of Apple.

[02:26:05] It is it is a funny thing when like the schlubby guys are kicking around the background and you have to think like oh right like Michael Stolbark has the money to pay for her. He can just write off a check for 25,000.

[02:26:16] All these guys they all cashed out their Apple stock that they got when they worked in a garage or whatever. Right. And then from then on it's like oh you worked on the first Macintosh you are guaranteed any job you want in this world.

[02:26:30] For the rest of your life. Yeah. If you want it. Or you can just do dumb startups. That's what Kate Winslet says. She says you can find me at my next job doing literally whatever I want. Whatever I want. I do. The real Joanna Hoffman hates Facebook.

[02:26:43] This is a quote on her Wikipedia page. She says that it is destroying the very fabric of democracy the very fabric of human relationships and peddling in the addictive drug called anger. Go off queen.

[02:26:56] So I feel like she's kind of like you know the conscience that she shows in this movie. Am I wrong for remembering that it's in the Isaacson book that like at the end of his life Jobs was like iPhone might have been a step too far.

[02:27:11] That he had a little bit of regret sort of on that same vein of like this might have now we might have given people too much.

[02:27:18] Like he might. He's definitely resistant to the iPhone. Right. And doesn't like the he is worried that it's like literally just like not going to like function if that makes sense. But I'm not I can't remember what it's like societally.

[02:27:37] It encouraged antisocial behavior after most of his devices were in theory him working towards this idea of greater connectivity. I just think there's something to that you know.

[02:27:47] You're marching further and further to this point and you get to the place where you give people too much and it almost hours. I mean I feel like his thing with the iPhone was more also just I mean look the movie Blackberry is coming out this year.

[02:27:59] Great film and which is another film along these lines about technology but obviously it's what's so fun about it and so Canadian about it.

[02:28:06] It's a very Canadian film is it's about these guys who made a thing that worked and then kind of got sucked into like well it's got to be exactly like this forever. And you know eventually like the world races ahead of them.

[02:28:18] And you think about it now where you're like why the fuck would we not want this to be the screen. Yeah. Why would just the top bit be the screen and the rest be like.

[02:28:28] And apparently that was what Jobs was like. He's like what the fuck is this keyboard. But do you remember I mean because it was years then being like Jobs wants to fix the phone. That's his new focus.

[02:28:37] That was he would look at the other products and be like no. That's not what that should be like. Right. And then they finally reveal it. You're like how do I use this dial. Right. You just touch it with your finger. What the fuck are you talking about.

[02:28:53] I remember when the iPhone came out I was like all right. Creepy. Enough. Yeah. Like I'm not going to I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to.

[02:29:03] Remember when apps were just like you can pour a beer. It looks like you're pouring a beer with your phone. Yeah. Those were what apps were. That's what apps were. I used to have an app called Fart that had a button you push it made a fart sound.

[02:29:15] We all had that app. Yeah. Classic app. Classic app. That was the most advanced app. And those were the days. And remember podcasts. Yeah. We used to have to listen to podcasts on our iPods. I'm going to put a thousand podcasts in your pocket.

[02:29:29] Get him out of here. My dad every time I see my dad he goes like how many hours have you guys done now. The one thing he wants to quantify. Have you ever tallied it up?

[02:29:42] No because I'm like I could figure I could tell you how many episodes it is. Offhand it's like 400 whatever. That's scary. But like how many hours is it like 10,000 hours. You got like 20,000 hours. I'm sure one of your listeners will tally it all up. In response to this.

[02:29:56] Yes and it will be kind of a horrifying number for you guys. But he like talks to other adults. He wants to be like my son has over 20,000 hours. He wants to prove you're a Gladwell-esque expert in podcasting. 500,000 hours of evergreen. So in the third act. Yeah.

[02:30:14] He reconciles with John Scully who shows up and they kind of talk it out. And he confesses like I've always been in my head about my own adoption. Right. You know the lack of control there. He talks about how he eventually did discover his real father.

[02:30:25] They can't even get into the fact that he was the way it all worked was Mona Simpson who is herself famous. A famous novelist wrote anywhere but here. Wrote a bunch of books. The character Mona Simpson in The Simpsons is named after her.

[02:30:38] I was going to say Ben do you know this? She was married to a Simpsons writer so Homer's mother is named after her. Mona Simpson. Steve Jobs real biological sister who he connected with later in life and then led him to his biological father.

[02:30:52] His parents had Steve Jobs. His mother puts him up for adoption. Her father dies and he is the one who's kind of against them being married because Steve Jobs' biological father is a Syrian immigrant who's Muslim. And so her father dies. They get married.

[02:31:07] They have another kid who they keep. Wow. And she eventually finds Steve. Yes. She eventually finds Steve and they know but he doesn't tell his dad? He doesn't. But he realizes I know who that is. She's like my dad is your dad is this Syrian restaurateur.

[02:31:26] And he's like I fucking know that guy. And he used to brag about how Steve Jobs comes into my restaurant. And he never met him but then eventually the dad figured it out. You can read all about it. But anyway Mona Simpson was married to a Simpsons writer

[02:31:41] and they named Homer's mom after her. The most important part of that. They can't even get into all that. But clearly this is so much a part of why he seeks control over the rest of his life according to Aaron Sorkin armchair psychologist.

[02:31:54] Look I'm all for Aaron Sorkin's pop psychology thing because it's like your job isn't to do the factual accounting of the person's life. Your job is to find the story to tell and the idea of what they represent or what they did.

[02:32:07] It's what you said very well Olivia which is just like I don't want a fucking biopic in the form of a cinematic Wikipedia entry. Yeah I want you to find a story to tell me. And this story is about children and parents and parents and children.

[02:32:26] It's like adapting any other work. Like if you're adapting real historical events it's like no you find the angle. What's the story you want to tell in this piece of material. Griff you wouldn't love a little Pixar. Just a little Pixar. Do you know. Just a Sprink.

[02:32:44] Do you know that when well so like obviously Bale and DiCaprio were the first choice at Sony for Steve Jobs the first for us for Wasniak was Mike Wazowski. And his quote was too high. You really went down that runway.

[02:33:01] It was like it was like when you know in an old fashioned movie someone shoots you the musket and misses and they're sort of. I'm going to get it back in the air. Here we go. I'll do a little I'll do a little behind the scenes here.

[02:33:14] I was worried about fucking up the name because Waz and Wazowski are so similar. I was like I said Mike Wazniak. I was like I need to give myself some more runway to make sure I actually land this.

[02:33:24] If I said Mike Wazniak I would have been chased out of this. I would retire into into a puddle. Yeah. OK. The movie ends with that scene we've already discussed him apologizing to Lisa. The computer was named after you.

[02:33:40] And then she gets to watch from backstage something she has not done up until that point. He always gets her out of the building. Yes. Before that can happen. But also she leaves richer than she showed up because she leaves with a dream.

[02:33:56] A dream of one day having 1000 songs. She also gets a printout of her painting. Of course. The whole time. But the way you just see it through the light in the in that shot is so smart. There's no insert shot of it. You know what it is.

[02:34:12] Danny Boyle's hand holding it. Shit we forgot to get into. My hand. But I think this ending is controversial especially literally the last beats of it. The song by the Maccabees was a really nice song. Danny Boyle picked it obviously.

[02:34:26] And him like bathed in this like heavenly light from the flashbulbs right and kind of like reaching out to her and the music soaring and people are like what's this cheesy happy ending. But he's also like far from her.

[02:34:42] And then he turns to like come closer and then he turns back to the audience. Godlike kind of mysterious kind of unknowable. This is what I want to needle you on. Not needle you in a needles the wrong word but I want to tease out of you.

[02:34:58] I feel like you've made a lot of offhand references over the years when I hear you talk about this movie both on and off mic about this movie being about like humanity trying to speak to God.

[02:35:06] Well or like it's like he's like a modern godlike figure in a weird way right because again it's like you can't even just be like yeah he invented the fucking light bulb. Great I know what a light bulb is. Good job by him.

[02:35:20] It's like well he was he spearheaded many important things. He's a godlike figure because it's like he became this weird icon of like post religious society right. Yeah. His fucking face is like iconic. You know what's one of the weirdest things. I want you to guess.

[02:35:38] No he he dies right. We're all talking about like you know it was somewhat sudden. Right. The book suddenly comes out so soon after my memory is like within three days of him dying New York City was just like papered with billboards.

[02:35:52] Taxicab ads subway ads his face his face like you know gone but never forgotten years of his life whatever. It was like so quick that suddenly it felt like all of New York City was like Apple spending money to memorialize him. If if Bill Gates died.

[02:36:09] Yes the same thing would not have. No no there would be people who do areas that were long. Consideration of his legacy but there's not a person with his face over the city. And also there'd be a lot of Epstein jokes. Yeah well.

[02:36:25] But this is what I'm saying where Jobs has this somewhat mythic figure. And this whole movie is about like trying to talk to this godlike figure who is also this like petty sure difficult man. Yeah.

[02:36:35] And like I just love that like the constant you know what do you call it. What's this tension of tension. I'm losing my word. We've been recording for three hours right Benny. Almost. We're going to sell some ads on this one. Apple Apple. Oh my God.

[02:36:51] I didn't even think of that. I don't think they're interested. They like we're not. They made efforts to like kind of cut this movie. Sorkin and Tim Cook were kind of beefing publicly. Yeah. They kind of had a war. Yeah. Linux can we get Linux.

[02:37:06] Yeah but I'll call tech support and I'll pitch it to them. Right. Microsoft Edge. Tim Cook is a great example of like you've sensed the immediate shift. Yeah no one's like I love Tim Cook. Right. Kind of a freak loves Tim Cook.

[02:37:22] People are still in on Apple products. I think he's all right. Yeah sure. But for Tim Cook there's no there's no thing there in the same way. Absolutely. There's no one else in our society. I can't think of one but there's not a lot. Yeah sure.

[02:37:37] And well I mean Elon Musk God don't bless him. Sure. But he was sort of angling for that. He was really one. And then the difference is a couple of crucial errors. He's a fucking idiot. And then Steve Jobs what for whatever he was he wasn't an idiot.

[02:37:54] Well he wasn't as good a poster if that's what you mean. Yeah. I mean sure. But he was like I don't want people to think I'm an asshole. I just don't care what they think or whatever he says. Which is like the exact opposite of Elon Musk.

[02:38:04] Please like me. I want you to find me funny. I think he said a little joke. I think Jobs says he's indifferent to whether or not people like him. And then Hertzfeld says well for what it's worth I never did. I don't want people to dislike me.

[02:38:17] I'm indifferent to whether they dislike me. Musk could not care more. That guy. You really sure he cares what people think. Well I find it so funny that you're triggered. I don't care at all. That was pretty good. Thank you. I'm working on it.

[02:38:32] Scythifrican is kind of a hard one. Yes. But right. And like then just the idea of us being like why are you like this and him being like I'm poorly made like and I don't like that either which is why I'm trying to build you perfect beautiful things.

[02:38:46] Why don't you like my perfect beautiful things. I'm poorly made is like the best line in this movie. When Sorkin wrote that he poured himself a glass of scotch and had a great wink. Yes. Just a great one. Yes.

[02:39:00] He was he must have been so proud of himself. It's so good. And nothing nothing he puts his fingers to. I guess he doesn't drink. Nothing else he does is poorly made. Jobs doesn't do poorly made things. No. But he himself can't fix it. Is poorly made.

[02:39:17] Can't fix it. And he also knows it's that question what could be so wrong in me at a month. And Jeff Daniels is like nothing. You're up. It's factual. Like something I did something wrong. I got turned back in. I'm poorly made. Right right.

[02:39:31] And of course Jeff Daniels maybe could have butted in with another line and be like it's very stressful to have a one month old baby. They just couldn't handle it. I mean there's a lot of things. But no it's all it's all part of the metaphor.

[02:39:39] It's a beautiful movie. Poorly made. Maybe I'll watch it again. So I did watch it last night and then again this morning just to make sure I didn't. Watching it back to back is a great experience. You'll pick up on a little something new every time.

[02:39:51] This was one of those movies where it had a good. With some of the pushback it had a good like sort of launch at the festivals and then they're putting out limited release. I remember playing maybe only at Lincoln Square here in New York.

[02:40:04] Maybe it was two theaters but I feel like it opened in like one New York one L.A. Is that possible. Very possible. I just remember limited series of show times that opening weekend and I saw that there was like one ticket available late on Friday night.

[02:40:16] And I was like you know what I'm just so eager to see this fucking thing and joined the discourse after I've been reading people write reviews of this for the last two months. I'm going to go see this now.

[02:40:26] And then felt pretty deflated by it at that time. But it was like jam packed sold out and the kind of like insane per screen average opening. People were like well it's gonna be another hit. And then weekend two done.

[02:40:40] It was one of those things where I did it very quickly. Yeah probably a mistake. I think it's like what Boyle says is a mistake. He's like they kind of fucked it up on release and it shouldn't have gone that quickly.

[02:40:51] But that first weekend people were like oh the excitement for this is huge. People are dying to see this fucking thing. Yeah. Yeah. It's weird. It's expansion weekend. The Martian is crushing. The per screen that first weekend. Forty three thousand. And how many screens. Four screens. Four.

[02:41:12] Yeah I think it was too near. It was humongous. Right. But yeah it's just you know when it goes wide it goes to seven million. Kind of disappointing. It's opening. It goes wide to number seven below paranormal activity the ghost dimension. Yeah. The last witch hunter.

[02:41:32] Not a bad movie. Not a bad movie. A movie that's actually much like Steve Jobs grown better with age. But you know did they expand it too quickly maybe. I think the public was just like ah. Enough with this guy.

[02:41:45] And not not grabbed enough by the names in the cast.

[02:41:49] It is the funny thing for all these were like positive but not read for all the hand wringing about getting this movie made and all the emails of like we can't make it for this budget we can't make with this actor it's like they were proven right commercially.

[02:42:00] All the concerns were valid. Yeah. Yeah. But if you do if you want to read a really good rave of this movie A.O. Scott wrote one for The Times. That is very very good. And it's like is this movie as like formally perfect as The Social Network.

[02:42:18] No. But that gives this like humanistic edge to it that makes it like something else entirely like comparing the two isn't going to do anyone any favors. But this is a great movie. Talking about other film critics the great the great Michael Phillips who was once A.O.

[02:42:35] Scott's co-host on the last respectable version of At The Movies. Yeah. They had him on our buddies film spottings episode on the Sight and Sound top 10 where he was talking about his own top 10 and how he came up with it.

[02:42:51] And he said this thing that stuck with me that I really liked where he was like I don't know if I have a single film on my top 10 that I think is a perfect movie.

[02:42:59] But that maybe speaks to my love of films that have some power without needing to be formally perfect. Right.

[02:43:07] And there was something I appreciated of him just admitting that where he's like I recognize perfect movies but I'm not going to go off the criteria of the 10 most perfectly made films. Right. Or the 10 best.

[02:43:19] I'm like I can I can prefer movies with flaws that somehow achieve some greater thing. Totally agree Michael. My National Society for Critics colleague just saw him. Great guy. Box office game it opened number 16 four screens. October 9th. 2050. So is this first weekend of The Martian. Second. Wow.

[02:43:46] Martian was so big. The Martian was a huge fucking movie. Did Martian do 250 domestic? 228. OK. Pretty good. Big. Bring him home. Bring him home. And you know what I can't stop laughing. Of course the funniest movie of the year. It won the Golden Globe for. For. On Mars.

[02:44:09] It was pretty funny. There's like a whole poop. Yes. Potatoes. Out of his fertilizer. All that disco music. Look my tick tock and I tweeted about my tick tock has recently decided rather than show me the work of America's Darling influencers or its young babies.

[02:44:29] Showed a lot of babies back in the day pets. Great hilarious fails. I only get impressionist. Sure you get old school impressionist. I did recently get a clip of Jimmy Stewart on The Carson Show which was amazing like old. Yeah.

[02:44:43] Mostly now it's just like do you just want a three minute clip from like a movie from the 2010s that appeals to dads. And the thing with tick tock is if you watch it there they're like you like. And I'll just be like it's just Captain Phillips.

[02:44:57] Wait OK. I recently. And now it just shows. I got like the last scene of Captain Phillips on tick tock recently and I was like yeah. You just immediately like not his blood. So like Sully. Uh huh. Spotlight. Do you like Sully. I saved so many souls.

[02:45:14] Captain Phillips. Yeah. The Martian. Yeah. And I've been recently watching some Martian clips and I'm like this is pretty good. I should rewatch the movie. It's like a really it's an entertaining movie. It's so entertaining. Bug nuts cast when you step back and you're like Kristen Wiig.

[02:45:30] Donald Glover's in that movie. Jeff Daniels dancing on the dialogue. Exactly. He's back. Doing a little soft shake. Well I don't know if NASA would approve of that. I don't know what he's doing. I don't like.

[02:45:41] And a celebrated hit based on a bestseller directed by a good director. Best picture nominee Matt Damon being a movie star. What's not to like. Number two at the box office in its third week an animated comedy. We've covered it on this podcast. Covered it on this podcast.

[02:45:58] Is it Hotel Transylvania 2? Dos. The weakest but still a strong hotel. Well you say the weakest. Someone has not seen Transylvania. I have not. Absolutely true. I have not seen Hotel Transylvania 4. Olivia Craighead. Yes. My dear friend. Yes. Have you seen any of the Hotel Transylvania films?

[02:46:18] Have you checked into the Hotel T? Maybe I've seen the first one. You know where you should also see. And I was like kind of charmed by it. I got a couple other stays to recommend for you. In that case.

[02:46:33] And you know what I remember either seeing the trailer or seeing the poster for the one where they're on a cruise ship. And I was like. And I was like. That's funny. Yeah. The conceit of it. I was like. They got to take a vacation from their vacation.

[02:46:46] It's like high concept. I was like you know what. That's probably great. Do you know what happens on the cruise ship? What happens? A lot of funny stuff. What doesn't happen? Oh God. Big puppy. Maybe I gotta go take a cruise. Oh the big puppy. Yeah.

[02:47:03] Check out Hotel Transylvania. I actually think it's gonna be really hard to track the plot of three if you don't see to it. Number three at the box office. Clearly hoping to have been the number one movie. It's new this week.

[02:47:14] It's a children's action adventure fantasy film based on a classic text. Based on a classic text? It is the definition of an absolute fucking blank check bouncing all the way across the world. So it's not Wrinkle in Time. But it's that kind of thing.

[02:47:31] Were they still making Narnias at this point? I mean who knows but it's not a Narnia. But you're. Is this a first book? It's a classic work. Is it Pan? It is Pan. Joe writes Pan. Joe writes Pan with Hugh Jackman as Blackbeard. Yes. Garrett Hedlund is.

[02:47:56] Is it Hodgman or Hedlund? Garrett Hedlund is Hot Hook. Right. What's your name? John Hook. Me here with these two normal hands. Rooney Mara as Tiger Lily in one of the more disastrous cast decisions of recent years.

[02:48:12] A musical number in which the lost boys sing Smells Like Teen Spirit. This movie is not real. Real. That's real. It's real as a heart attack. I don't know. No one knows who it's for. The FBI is still trying to figure out who that movie was for.

[02:48:34] It made $35 million dollars domestically. Domestically. They would have been disappointed if that were the opening. They would have been and yet that was not the opening. Number four at the box office. A Loki Charmer.

[02:48:50] The last film by this great director but maybe she's got another movie coming soon. Okay so she's not retired. It is called The Intern? What if Robert De Niro was an intern? Yeah. We've all heard of interns. Got it. Zach Broman. The guy who directed Big Time Adolescence.

[02:49:09] Now what if the intern was old? Wait, wait, wait. Think about that guys. Like seven years. Like retired? Like bored in retirement. Like Linda Lavin is trying to fuck him in the middle of Park Slope? Too old to learn new tricks. What are you talking about?

[02:49:27] Is he going to reach the busy CEO of this company? Any life lessons? I think so. Is he going to maybe not put his thumb on the scale hard enough for like divorce your fucking cock husband? The worst husband in the history of movies. Who is Anders Holm?

[02:49:41] Anders Holm. Mistakes were made in the mid 2000s. I have faith that Nancy will get this movie made starring say it with me Michael Fassbender. Michael Fassbender. Not someone who you felt was on the runway for romantic comedy.

[02:49:53] Michael Fassbender in a Nancy Meyers movie is like something that was made in a lab just for me. My understanding of this project is it sounds a little America's Sweetheart-y.

[02:50:06] Where Fassbender and Cruise would be the like temperamental difficult self serious movie stars in the movie being made by Owen Wilson, Scarlett Johansson who would actually be the proper romantic. And they are Nancy. Yeah I was going to say they're the Nancy and Charles Shire. Right.

[02:50:23] I'm more of a Charles Shire type. Yes. Sign me up. That sounds awesome. It's kind of wild. Wilson. I guess Wilson and Witherspoon are. We've been recording for three hours. No Wilson and Witherspoon are both in Inherent Vice but not in scenes together.

[02:50:41] But it feels like they oh well fucking how do you know? How do you know? I'm sorry. I'm missing Witherspoon. I'm combining home again. Wilson and Johansson have they ever done anything together? I don't know. I don't know. I can't answer that question for you.

[02:50:59] They're both in the Marvel Cinematic Universe but in different places. Oh I forgot that he's in the. Okay. Come on we gotta fix the timeline. Have you seen that interview whatever late night talk show it was? Griffin this better be good. It's so funny.

[02:51:13] It's so like the Martian bit. It's so funny. I don't know. Oh God. Well, whatever. They say how do you feel when they call you and ask you to be in the Marvel Universe? And you go great. You know Kevin Feige called me. Talk about this character.

[02:51:30] And I said what's his powers? He's a really good listener. Okay. Was it worth it? Ben is so mad. Ben is standing up. Going to the bathroom? Yep. From a blank check director we have yet to cover. Okay. A great film in my opinion. Very dark. Very dark?

[02:51:55] Very dark. It's not Killing Them Softly? No. I love that movie. That's a dark movie. We're never doing him though. Well, he made a mistake. He made a whoopsie. He made a three hour whoopsie. Did you see Blonde? Of course not. I respect myself. Yeah.

[02:52:10] Olivia, you do respect yourself. I had too many people texting me being like, I couldn't get through Blonde or like telling me about what happened to Blonde. And I was like, why would I waste my time? I don't have so much precious time on this earth.

[02:52:22] Ain't a theater. Ugh. That's all I'm saying. Okay, wait. Blank check filmmaker, incredibly dark crime film, 2015. It's a flop? No, kind of a low key hit. It's a sequel. Sicario? Sicario. Got it. Do you like Sicario? I like, here's a fun fact about me.

[02:52:43] I saw Sicario in Paris. That's just, ooh la la indeed. This is American. Kind of too late into my semester abroad did I realize you could go to the movies. It's the best thing to do in Paris. The number one best thing to do in Paris.

[02:52:59] They'll give you an English movie, French subtitles. French subtitles or they'll, you know, it's great. It's hard. Verso so titres. Sicario is hard though because when they're speaking Spanish in Sicario, the subtitles are all in French. Or you got to just, yeah, try and lock your French in.

[02:53:13] Yeah, that's kind of, I was like, oh, we can kind of figure this out. Also in the top 10, The Scorch. We were in The Scorch. The Scorch Trials. Is that the Maze Runner sequel? Yes, The Maze Runner colon The Scorch Trials. That's two? Two.

[02:53:29] That's the one where Dylan O'Brien almost died. No, that's Death Cure. Oh, okay. Which is three. They found the cure for death. It was a long production hiatus. Almost killing Dylan O'Brien. Number seven is The Walk. Also expanding this weekend. Welcome to New York City.

[02:53:45] Number eight, Black Mass. God. Jesus Christ. That's a lot of early Oscar season wipeouts. That's the definition of like a fucking Wikipedia entry movie for me. Right. Is that the Whitey Boulders? Yeah. Hey, what's the matter with you? I'm Whitey Boulders. Number nine, Everest.

[02:54:04] Kind of another, not even a flop, but like Oscar whiff, but I like that movie. I still need to see it. I've never seen it. And number 10, The Visit. M. Night Shyamalan's low-key comeback. A lot of Blanchard movies in there. Good time for me.

[02:54:21] I don't remember what was going on. I don't either. There's so many Blanchard movies. It's a masterpiece. I feel like it's the kind of movie that Boyle doesn't get enough credit for. Sure. Because it becomes the Sorkin movie. And obviously the Sorkin script is very important.

[02:54:38] But I think it's a beautifully made film. I think it's a very great meeting of the minds for two guys who are kind of like maximalists in like different ways. Yes. Absolutely. And they like really meet and gel in a great way.

[02:54:53] And I would love it if Sorkin would let other people direct his stuff again. We really need it. There are a lot of guys who could do it. It's not him. But get Soderbergh in there. What's your problem? Imagine that. Imagine. That would be great.

[02:55:08] That's what he needs. Good question. Who do I want to see tackle a Sorkin script? Truly anyone. Anyone. I'll do it. I'll scratch one director off the list. Aaron Sorkin. Oh! Does not seem to have a way with the material. Next week. Yes.

[02:55:28] After these strange post Oscar years, Danny Boyle retreats to a sequel. The one that everyone's demanded, begged him to do for 20 years. T2 Trainspot. And then they say, sorry, I was washing my hair that day. Right. That's what's next week. Take us out please. Griffin Newman. Olivia Craycan.

[02:55:47] Oh! We love her! Five timer! Five timer! Five timer! Thank you so much for having me. I am exhausted now. I feel like we all kind of ran a marathon together. Absolutely. Wouldn't have it any other way.

[02:56:00] Imagine how much more difficult it would have been with the treadmills. With the goddamn treadmills. If we had done this on treadmills, it would have been an hour and a half, which I actually think people would be really mad about.

[02:56:11] Yeah, it would have sped us up because we would have been out of breath. Yeah. We would have been heaving. Imagine us being like, and Lisa is huffing and puffing about local integrated systems. Architecture. Anything you want to plug, Olivia? No. Great. Thank you all for listening.

[02:56:26] Olivia's the best. Follow her on things. Or leave her alone. Or leave me alone. Yeah, that's kind of it. We had a great dinner at Joe Jr. the other- Okay, shut the fuck up. We had burgers. This is not- I'm trying to end the show over here.

[02:56:36] David gave me some really good gossip. About what? About who? We'll talk about it later. You're going to tell me off, Mike, though. I can't remember what it was, but it better look good. Well, you clearly remember. Yeah. Okay, so we're finishing this fucking episode.

[02:56:45] Oh, I remember what it was and it was good. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate and subscribe. And we'll see you next time. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. David's eyes have turned into flames.

[02:57:25] Go to BlankCheckPod.com for links to some real nerdy shit including our Patreon, Blank Check special features where we do franchise commentaries like the Men in Black films. We're also doing the Boyle Olympic ceremony as we talked about that will have already dropped by.

[02:57:41] Now tune in next week for T2 Trainspotting 2 Judgment Day. And as always, I'm up to 236 diamonds. Thank you for calling the Burger Report hotline 8028burger. Please leave a message with your FAMO type of burger and location and we will try to

[02:58:05] put it on the podcast if we can. That's 8028burger. Hey, Griffin and David. A couple years ago, I was walking to my friend's apartment and I got a text that said to look into Whitman's in New York on like 9th Street.

[02:58:24] And they said, look into the window and tell us who that man is eating a burger because we know he's famous but we don't know who it is. So I walk by, I look in and I saw Danny Boyle, same director of Slumdog Millionaire, eating a burger.