The Boy and the Heron with J.D. Amato

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[00:00:26] ["Blackjack with Griffin and David!" plays in the background.] Right. Yeah, great. The guy nails the voice. I mean the last guy you would think is capable of doing that I haven't seen the dub but from the trailer the trailer sounds like you did a good job. Okay, I got it. Chris Pratt Oh, you don't know either. No, it's gonna blow your mind Cuz on paper you're like it's kind of a Chris Pratt where they're like, why did you cast that guy?

[00:01:44] But then of course the guy actually is not gonna do the boys professional Gordon Levitt

[00:01:46] That would make more sense. The wind rises. Yeah The excitement when I did the Waddow voice opening was just because David had been verging on a breakdown as JD and I scrubbed through the trailer with captions on trying to find any line to work. Well, because we, me, Griffin and Ben. Yes. We, Griffin, Ben and I.

[00:03:00] Well said.

[00:03:01] We saw the movie yesterday together.

[00:03:03] We saw it together.

[00:03:04] Obviously, we went subs not dubs.

[00:03:06] Mm hmm.

[00:03:07] And it's such...

[00:03:08] I don't even know if you can see it with dubs right now. American castle. Sure, by fit. By, right, fit for Heron. Hamill is top. Yeah. For like, who's doing the Heron boy. Hamill plays Granduncle. Correct. Which makes a ton of sense. Willem Dafoe is second. He plays the Pelican. I would say Dafoe actually makes number one most sense. But those two are at the top, right? Then I would say Bautista. Right.

[00:04:20] Who plays the parrot king.

[00:04:21] Which is perfect casting.

[00:04:22] That makes total sense.

[00:04:23] Great casting.

[00:04:24] But, you know, you could see him busting out a Heron.

[00:04:26] Yeah. and people show up. Oh yeah, it's hard to say no. And this is final film. It's almost rude to say no. You have big names. I mean, I was just looking the, what was it? They're big names in like one line parts in this dub because people are like last chance. Yes, and Dan Stevens and Tony Revolori and Mamadou Afe I think play the like random other parakeets.

[00:05:42] The chorus of the parakeets.

[00:05:43] Right, right, right.

[00:05:44] Like these are real actors.

[00:05:45] Yes.

[00:05:46] I can talk to you guys asked me to do this. And then it's dovetail. You read Starting Point and. Turning Point. I also read Miyazaki.

[00:07:00] I cite a lot on those episodes.

[00:07:02] I also read Miyazaki World.

[00:07:03] And then.

[00:07:04] Turn on that one.

[00:07:05] It's like, it's about a kid who gets sucked

[00:07:07] into a weird other dimension.

[00:07:08] Yeah, exactly.

[00:07:09] It's unbelievable. I think it's such a weird, I think it's so... I've definitely heard that, Doug. The movie has such a expressiveness and such a fancy, and Keaton's playing it so low that it creates a weird friction to me. I will say I think Howl's Moving Castle actually is a really good Doug.

[00:08:20] Howl's Doug is surprisingly good.

[00:08:22] And the Crystal Cast...

[00:08:24] Bill is great, but also the Crystal Casting girl,

[00:08:26] like, oh shit.

[00:08:27] And then Crystal nails it.

[00:08:28] Crystal is great. I ensure that it sounds like the character rather than anyone else coming in and trying to put their own spin on it I like that idea. I I hope that that's where it came from like I like I like the idea that he's in there protecting it I also could see a version of it where he's just like yeah, I want to just like I want to go I want to do it. I want to want to play a hair. I want to do it. Yeah, like for real. Yeah

[00:09:42] But I like the idea I like the idea for me to go to work today. And I love, and then he'll be in scenes with Joseph Gordon-Levitt, who's doing a very, like realistic, like, you know, empathetic performance. And then those things don't.

[00:11:01] Yeah.

[00:11:02] Gordon-Levitt's kind of doing the patent thing of like, Iah, you know, they're just saying they love each other. Isn't there like a big 90s Disney renaissance guy who oversaw all those adaptations for a while? I don't know. Not Don Hall, but someone like that. I can't remember. David, you seem so excited. Well, I think we should introduce our podcast. I'm worried that we're too, you know,

[00:12:20] locked into this, yes.

[00:12:21] Two in the weeds already.

[00:12:22] I'm Griffin.

[00:12:23] Yeah, I'm David.

[00:12:24] It's a podcast about filmographies,

[00:12:25] directors who have massive success

[00:12:27] early on in their careers And I think theoretically it's like, oh, now I'm gonna start working on that one. His Alita battle. He'll tinker away. What was the other project? It's like, I think like the earwig and the witch or something. No, that got made. Right, that was his son made. Oh. That was the CGI one that people did not like. It's not very good. Because he was debating whether to do that or this. And then he had his son do that.

[00:13:40] That's a full Alita situation.

[00:13:43] It's an Alita situation?

[00:13:45] Yes.

[00:13:46] Go ahead.

[00:13:46] Where Cameron was developing Alita and Avatar.

[00:13:48] Right, yeah. your annual slots. Yeah, in December we try to get a couple records in. Yeah. All at once. No, I'm really excited. It was an honor that you guys asked me to come back for this movie. This was panned like six months ago, I want to say. When we were like, oh, it's finally coming out. And I went, I agree. Oh, we just we should have JD should come on a date. All of this says Lasseter and doctor.

[00:15:01] Everything I'm finding.

[00:15:02] I think you're right that there was like a done whole time.

[00:15:04] I'm trying to remember who it is because it this a bit light episode. You yesterday said, perhaps on the record, this is bit free. No bits. Packaged as bit free. No bits. Stamp the label on it. Well, maybe squeeze maybe a little bit in the end. But listen, no for all, we're no, truly there's so much that I wanna talk about here.

[00:16:20] Right.

[00:16:21] Okay.

[00:16:22] We saw this yesterday, as you said,

[00:16:24] in the basement of-

[00:16:26] Angelica.

[00:16:27] The Angelica has 5.1.1. The extra speaker is the train. 5.1.BDFM. Sometimes you're watching a movie and there is this rumble and you're like, yeah, you

[00:17:41] know, that's part of the movie.

[00:17:42] And then you're like, right, no, it's the subway.

[00:17:44] The other thing is sometimes the train passes and suddenly there's a stillness that feels Well, Ehrlich was on Hell's Moving Castle. I sort of have them on the background. Griffin McElroy was on Mononoke. I sort of have them on the background, so it's like they're sort of ephemeral in my mind a little bit. Sure. But one of the themes I picked up on, so famously, it's been long since recorded that David, early in our friendship, referred to Griffin as dumb animation nerds.

[00:19:01] Of course.

[00:19:01] I believe it was the...

[00:19:03] No, I did that on this podcast,

[00:19:05] because you two were going on about whatever the fuck.

[00:19:07] I'll tell you what we were going on about. But it's just so funny. You guys dared call us animation dorks. Anyway, I'm like, who's Will Vincent? And you guys are like, you're dumb animation dorks. But then now in 2023, you're like, I don't know the dumb raisin guy. I didn't call him dumb, I called you dumb. And some dumb plasticity of cool. He's obviously a major talent.

[00:20:22] Okay, but an interesting thing

[00:20:25] about our dumb animation nerdum,

[00:20:28] Griffin's a long time. A lot of it was just sensibility and style. And I do think doing that series

[00:21:42] helped break that down a little bit.

[00:21:44] But I also feel like I struggled to get my head around this movie, which I felt with certain Miyazaki films when we were

[00:23:03] watching them. And some of them I've rewatched, especially for this film. In this film, he's quoted as saying, like, I don't even really understand all of it. Which I think is a really beautiful thing is that a lot of this is just things that he's pulling from within himself. And if they touch you, I think they really can touch you. Yeah, which there were certainly moments that got to me.

[00:24:24] And I am not looking for like a metaphor

[00:25:24] similar to this, feels like a buffet line movie

[00:25:28] where he just keeps on putting stuff on the plate. David, your letterbox log was to this effect,

[00:25:32] that like the first half of the movie,

[00:25:34] you're like, you don't wanna just like maybe go back

[00:25:37] to the table, eat some of this,

[00:25:38] and then maybe you can go back for seconds,

[00:25:40] and it's like, no, we're putting this on,

[00:25:42] we're putting this on, we're putting this on,

[00:25:43] can you resolve all of this?

[00:25:45] Wendell Wilde, a movie's like he's staring straight into the Sun. There is like a very sober like, this is what it is. I'm not mincing words, right? And then Werner Herzog works on a much more literal level very often, although there are obviously zags from that. And Miyazaki

[00:27:01] translates that mostly into feeling then, right for me. And I'm like, I will get no resolution on this. This is now just conjured up feelings that cannot be resolved in my real life. We have to poke the bruise. Griffin, what if I told you, I will be your guy? Well, this is what I'm waiting for. Now, David, what is your relationship with Miyazaki?

[00:28:21] I love Miyazaki's films very deeply. I've seen them all many times.

[00:28:25] Did you watch Where You Were Supposed to? I wear a barristers wig, no, I would wear a barristers wig.

[00:29:40] Barristers?

[00:29:41] What are you talking about?

[00:29:42] Do I have to count?

[00:29:43] Why would you?

[00:29:44] I don't know, because you take your job seriously?

[00:29:46] Yeah, because you care about, obviously. But the big, I mean, I love him. I mean, you can listen to the past episodes. The big thing for me. You don't think they should? I don't know. I think, well, not important. You're clearly filled with regret. I am not. No regrets. But I have a daughter.

[00:31:00] And one of the first things I would watch with her when she was a little baby

[00:31:04] is there something on HBO Max or whatever it's called now?

[00:31:07] Zaz Levs. Z you later! Okay, bye. Ding, dong! Who's at the door? I don't know, you should probably go open it. Hello!

[00:32:20] Don't you recognize me?

[00:32:22] Uh, no. Can't see you.

[00:32:24] My large sack.

[00:32:26] Okay, you that makes sense. No, it doesn't. Okay. Okay, well, what's up, Stompus? Well, we all know this Stompa Claus. We all know from Stompa Claus. We know how he works. He brings the good children, the boys and girls of the world, their own stems.

[00:33:41] He goes to the post office.

[00:33:43] He picks them up.

[00:33:44] He drops them off in their stockings.

[00:33:46] Yes.

[00:33:47] That is not how Stompus works.

[00:33:48] Okay. has covered this holiday season. Sign up with promo code check for a special offer that includes a four week trial plus free postage and a digital scale with no long-term commitments or contracts. Just go to stamps.com, click the microphone at the top of the page and enter code check. I just wanted to say all that because I feel like your thing is so convoluted it might mess with the live stream. Sponsor, you have copy. I do not.

[00:35:00] Right, exactly.

[00:35:01] They do not pay me the end of the process.

[00:35:02] Your lore is so confusing.

[00:35:04] I just didn't want to really get in the middle of it.

[00:35:07] No, right. That makes it the most expensive Japanese film I've ever made. Yeah. But now my daughter was Ponyo for Halloween. Ponyo is the first movie she ever saw. She's seen it 8,000 times? I mean, she's seen it so many times and she refers to every now anytime. Like when we watched Toto recently

[00:36:23] and the little boy in that basically looks like

[00:36:25] the little boy in Ponyo and she was like,

[00:36:27] so's gay, that,000. Right. You've been waiting for it. The number one. With your raspy voice, you sound like a monster truck announcer. Start your engine. So does mom.

[00:37:42] So does his mom would do great at a monster truck rally. She drives like a demon.

[00:37:44] Ladies and gentlemen, rev your engines. I like the Heron in profile. Oh, sure. And I saw it at the Toronto International Film Festival. Opening night, usually the opening night movie there is kind of like a crappy crowd pleaser. This is the boy and the Heron, we're all seated the Princess of Wales. Obviously Miyazaki doesn't come. He doesn't fucking know. So the- He was busy seeing American fiction. I think Toshio Suzuki came.

[00:39:01] He may not have even come

[00:39:02] because he's kind of old at this point.

[00:39:04] A producer came out.

[00:39:05] They're all very, yeah.

[00:39:06] And basically saying like, Hey, I've seen the film I speak both languages. I'm like, here's what it's about or whatever. I did not do that. You were going in basically. They had released four promotional stills and I think I had seen those once or twice. Sure. But that was it. Yeah. And I saw the film and I felt like Griffin initially of like,

[00:40:20] like an overburdened waiter. Right.

[00:40:23] You know, I don't know how much.

[00:40:24] You want Montreal sticks and spring rolls.

[00:41:21] Terminator. Wow.

[00:41:22] Very long.

[00:41:23] Whoa.

[00:41:24] You're two.

[00:41:25] First, you're a BC proper.

[00:41:26] Dang.

[00:41:27] One BC.

[00:41:28] Wow.

[00:41:29] How did it take nine years to get to that joke?

[00:41:33] It's all a joke.

[00:41:34] David, I assume you're not going to try to take your dog for this.

[00:41:37] This is not one.

[00:41:38] No.

[00:41:39] She wouldn't care for this.

[00:41:40] Yeah.

[00:41:41] No, we've yet to go to a film in theaters because she's too young, though we're getting

[00:41:45] close.

[00:41:46] And I wonder.

[00:41:47] I'm also not a mentalist fold out every show. and see it from me to be like, yeah, well that's, cause you're a racist, which is the message of the movie, I guess. I bet you even think about how dirt people would take that news. I think the movie doesn't even really bother itself with the dirt people. No, they're kind of like, oh, they're trees, I guess anyway. Right, the movie almost has a racist attitude of saying like, the dirt people are kind of less important.

[00:43:00] And the air people barely get any fucking rope either.

[00:43:03] It's an absolutely about elemental people.

[00:43:05] It only cares about two out of four elements.

[00:43:08] The air people are bossy that I have since we did the miniseries, revisited Kiki. Your favorite. Your eye. It's about life in the big city, man. Kiki is such an incredible movie. Kiki the movie where we came in to record on a Saturday afternoon and Ben was watching it on the couch weeping. It's such a gentle, I mean, there's so much to like about Kiki's little resources.

[00:44:23] And then I recently showed my girlfriend

[00:44:26] spirited away for the first time.

[00:44:27] Oh, sure. And keeping flames alive, they shouldn't make glass. How dare you even suggest it? I just haven't seen this movie, so I just don't know. Katie Rich likes to say that the water guy, the main water guy in Elemental

[00:45:40] is the biggest cuck in the history.

[00:45:43] I put a cuck in cinema.

[00:45:44] And it's true.

[00:45:46] Anyway.

[00:45:47] It's weird they didn't however you want to put it. And so that's only gonna hurt him more if he wants to pump some shit out about Thor fighting fucking Ms. Marvel or whatever Thor Fathly will be about. Which is why I need the time for Beteray Bell

[00:47:01] to show up in the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

[00:47:04] But as a critic, am I leaving behind film? Through the prism of like also using that to explore, like how did I get here? What did I think I was trying to do? What am I actually, what have I actually been?

[00:48:22] Yeah.

[00:48:23] What happens after me, you know?

[00:48:26] Well, so an interesting question I'd like to pose a piece of art or an art object is, especially because oftentimes the artist themselves becomes an art object, which Miyazaki has in such a major way. He is a singular name that represents themes and ideas and all this stuff. And we all know that cinema is not a singular process. Even the most auteur of auteurs is a collaborative process.

[00:49:42] And so, but the fact that his films stand to be

[00:49:46] these are Miyazaki films, I was talking to a friend of the podcast, well, I won that name for obvious reasons in a second, who worked on the creative side of things in the industry. And we were talking about our love of like old DVD behind the scenes, featurettes and documentaries, and especially the ones that are filmed during the filming of. And he said, can I ask you a question?

[00:51:02] When did you realize that the people in those interviews

[00:51:05] aren't really telling the truth?

[00:51:07] And I said, the first time think he has the right to tell that story? I mean, if he's never worked there. It's disgusting. It's disgusting. Um, but he never saw his parents become hogs. Right. This is true. But, uh...

[00:52:20] So he wants to put words in the mouths of soot sprites when he has never been a soot sprite.

[00:52:23] I don't know if they ever talk.

[00:52:25] But here's a Miyazaki quote he said.

[00:52:26] Well, and that's these really interesting ideas about that handshake between them. But I feel like him saying that kind of stuff also is him trying to keep the spotlight on the work.

[00:53:41] Well, this is, yeah, right.

[00:53:42] The way that he wants to express himself is through the one.

[00:53:44] Because he's not a salesman, but he is conscious

[00:53:46] of the way his work is being. After the earthquake, his grandfather started a company, a factory that makes airplane parts. I think it was engine bands for rudders and things like whatever, something like that. His father and uncle then sort of take over management

[00:55:00] of this factory.

[00:55:01] The war happens and they make a lot of money selling

[00:55:04] these airplane parts to the military

[00:55:07] as part of the war effort. in a truck with his family. And another family stops in front of him and is like, please take us with you. And it was like, it's funny because in this one book they're talking about how Miyazaki remembers that as a mom holding a baby and Miyazaki's father just continues to drive. And Miyazaki's child has this like panic

[00:56:20] where he's like, I should have said something.

[00:56:22] If maybe if I had said something,

[00:56:23] my dad would have stopped him

[00:56:24] and surely we could have taken this family.

[00:56:26] Miyazaki's brother contends, I don't think it was a family. And he has a complicated relationship with his father who was... He's also growing up in the age where Japan completely demilitarizes, and the idea of the war is so horrifying to the next generation. Right. And there's the idea that his dad was part of the generation of the modern man and modern war, sort of like these people that were trying to express different parts of themselves.

[00:57:41] And for Miyazaki, there's this huge conflict.

[00:57:43] I think there's a lot of cultural conflict between his...

[00:57:46] Sure. an elegiac movie about his legacy that he was, you know, bidding us goodbye with. Right. It's also his most literal, grounded film, right? And there's nothing else that comes close to that in terms of just how, yeah. Exactly. Not really, no. But the wind rises, the big opening point

[00:59:01] was the earthquake, right?

[00:59:03] And for this movie, it's literally what I just described.

[01:00:02] of like how it all came to be. So-

[01:00:03] I feel like this is good.

[01:00:03] Let's lay out context and then, you know.

[01:00:05] So recap the plot.

[01:00:06] That's five, 10 minutes.

[01:00:07] Yeah, exactly.

[01:00:08] So one of the things that's interesting is that this film,

[01:00:12] after the wind rises, which was announced

[01:00:15] is probably going to be Miyazaki's final film.

[01:00:17] We all braced for that.

[01:00:18] Which was the third time he had called a movie

[01:00:20] his final film, right?

[01:00:22] Mononoke gave us a final film.

[01:00:24] Spirited Away was the final film,

[01:00:25] or Hal was the final film.

[01:00:26] Yeah.

[01:00:27] Yeah. a creative partner and... Sort of, yeah. Mentor to a certain degree. More kind of a pseudo mentor and then kind of like a parallel partner. But was with him throughout his journey. Certainly. Also, fair to say the only other sort of like fully developed A-tier filmmaker within the G-Blease system.

[01:01:42] Which I think... I don't know.

[01:01:44] In the early stages.

[01:01:45] You and I disagree a little bit, maybe. And by the way, he was mourning that, and then he really took that uncle character out of the story. And obviously this is, there's the book. Grand uncle, you mean? Yes, grand uncle. Was maybe supposed to be more woven in throughout, because he only appears basically in the last 30 minutes, 20 minutes. And then apparently the Heron became more of a character as the film was developed from that point forward.

[01:03:01] But the point being, Miyazaki says,

[01:03:03] I want to make this film.

[01:03:04] Suzuki on the record says that he almost didn't want He was known for yelling, he was known for working until midnight, and if you did not also work till midnight, that was against the culture of the office and what they did. He's also just like an incredibly blunt man. Yeah. You know, I mean, it's the reason why so many of his interviews, like, linger around the internet because you're just like, no one talks this directly.

[01:04:20] And you imagine if you're working for him,

[01:04:22] and he just says, like, this is bad, it lacks feeling.

[01:04:24] Yeah, exactly.

[01:04:25] All the time, it starts to break your spirits.

[01:05:21] of making the film. More open, sure. Exactly.

[01:05:22] And so he does these beautiful interviews

[01:05:24] where he's talking about the process of making this film.

[01:05:26] And what was so interesting was that this is the first film

[01:05:29] that Miyazaki brought in someone to be the animation director

[01:05:35] and really gave him heightened partnership

[01:05:38] in the filmmaking process.

[01:05:40] And that was Takeshi Honda.

[01:05:42] And Takeshi Honda is a famous animators, came back for this film together. And because Miyazaki was at this stage where he could not work as quickly, oftentimes they just did their work on their ever fucking finish his movies that people can see What you have to imagine when you talk about the nerves and green lighting this film that they're just like this is thief in the cobbler This is never gonna get done But what's different I would say is it. David! Yeah! It's that time of the year. What's up, man? That time of the year that comes around several times a month. We love it. When Mubi sponsors the podcast. Mubi! Mubi! Mubi! We like them. We like them. They're good, they're good.

[01:09:40] David, we're happy to do any Mubi.

[01:09:41] Yeah.

[01:09:42] Ad read.

[01:09:43] Sure.

[01:09:44] It's always a pleasure.

[01:09:45] Love those guys.

[01:09:45] It's particularly exciting when souls, Ansa and Holapa. Leningrad Cowboys. Yeah, yeah, it was okay. Look, I had to catch myself on that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you threw me there. They have a chance to meeting a local karaoke bar and then there's a bunch of hurdles.

[01:11:01] And this is gonna sound like no big deal.

[01:11:03] Oh, lost phone numbers, mistaken addresses,

[01:11:05] a charming stray dog. This film ended up being an interesting collage of all these great animators who I think there's a funny element to it also. I don't know this to be true, but in some of the interviews that I read, I think I get this energy. So this is me doing a little bit of fan, fan casting right now, but I think this is there a little bit where Miyazaki's work is so bubbly and round and expressive and doesn't do that. And so this film has a lot of elements that are not Miyazaki elements. They're Miyazaki stories and frames and storyboard moments, but then these animators take them and sort of express them in their own way.

[01:13:41] There's even, what's the aunt's name?

[01:13:44] Yeah, Natsuko.

[01:13:45] In the movie, sorry?

[01:13:46] Yes, yes a pastiche.

[01:15:00] It's the baton being handed off between different animators.

[01:15:03] No, what you're saying is beautiful,

[01:15:05] that like, whether by hook or by crook, Another great example is Katsuya Kondo was the animation director on Ponyo. And I think he did a lot of the characters on Keys Delivery Service. I think he has a lot more of this sort of like light expressive style to him. There are sequences that apparently in this film, Miyazaki just let him do it and like didn't do any corrections.

[01:16:20] And it was just like, yeah, that's fine.

[01:16:22] Let that go.

[01:16:23] And he said, go off King.

[01:16:25] Yeah.

[01:16:25] Which is crazy.

[01:16:26] Exactly.

[01:16:28] You dropped this. The themes of this film are about legacy and passing down. And what can we pass down? What of our imperfections are permanent? What are the things that we hold on to? What are the things that we can resolve? And what of those imperfect and perfect aspects of the world that we build?

[01:17:40] Can we hand down to the next generation?

[01:17:43] And I think what's why make your final film with intentionality,

[01:19:03] even if he's like capping it decades earlier than he would need to.

[01:20:01] and can't do this anymore. No, there are a lot of those guys,

[01:20:03] I mean, Schrader's very much in that phase right now

[01:20:05] where he's like, look,

[01:20:06] between the state of the industry and my health,

[01:20:09] every time he's promoting a new movie,

[01:20:11] maybe that was the last one.

[01:20:12] But he's also like, I'm gonna make another one of them.

[01:20:15] Right, but rarely is it this thing where people go,

[01:20:18] they take their pause and they go,

[01:20:21] and this is going to be this final film.

[01:20:23] And I'm designing it as my final statement to some degree.

[01:20:26] Yeah, there are movies. In Prairie Home he was like, here we go I'm obviously in a late stage looking back reflecting thinking about death but like next movie Hands on a Hardbody he was supposed to make Hands on a Hardbody. It was cast, it was prepped, he died. And yeah so it's like that's a great final statement movie but he was

[01:21:40] rejecting that fully. They usually do because it's annoying. Right. Wind rises was him attempting to do that. And then he wakes up the next morning after it's done and released and is like, fuck, I have new thoughts. Right. You know, I mean, I'm not basing up on anything other than that's how human beings exist. Right. You know, and like, as you said, David, it's like, what else is this guy going to fucking do? Well, this guy can't stop expressing himself artistically as long as he has

[01:23:04] the means and the wherewithal to manifest it in any way.

[01:23:07] I mean, first he made you for like... Not bad.

[01:24:21] Almost 15 years now, perhaps.

[01:24:22] I've known you for 10.

[01:24:26] And you walked into the Angelica yesterday and I was shocked.

[01:25:40] I've never even seen a hint of a beard before. but it's not Chris White's is about a boy. It's not about a boy. And Paul directed that one. Let's give credit where we credit. We're so sorry. But is there any more context you want to get into before we discuss the plot of the film? The one thing that I'll say that I think is interesting. It's also inspired by a book called How Do You Live? Yes, which was the original working title. And people-

[01:25:41] It's the Japanese title.

[01:25:42] Assumed it was going to be more of a direct adaptation.

[01:25:44] That title-

[01:25:45] Those fools.

[01:25:46] Because every adaptation he's ever done. like, oh, they both, this relationship was the product of affairs and they feel guilty. It's like written in 1900. And it's just so funny to think of Miyazaki being like, I shall call this six year old in short pants, so scared after that book of, you know, no relation. Anyway. No, I was reading that the sales of How Do You Live?

[01:27:02] have gone like through the roof in Japan.

[01:27:04] Right, because people are episode. And I like, I cried again because it is watching this film and then seeing where he came from. And it felt like, you know, like in like Toy Story 2 when they watched like the Woody's Roundup TV show or whatever, and you're like, oh, this is the joy and simplicity of where it all began.

[01:28:22] And like now where he is is this old or...

[01:28:25] Can I just say it?

[01:28:26] Yeah. Woody's Roundup people at this point. They're all in their chairs. Yeah, they're all. I put in air quotes. I put in air quotes. Well, you can't hear air quotes. I said the quotes. I said the quote. The Goro of it, I do think, is interesting in this movie

[01:29:41] and him sort of reckoning with what is the thing I built

[01:29:44] and what happens to it when I'm gone.

[01:29:46] Because Goro is the one who has stayed

[01:29:48] and whereas these other guys, bears the Miyazaki family name, directs animated films, and they are all mediocre. I don't know what to make of that. I don't know if his father agrees, but every time you read about his father's opinions on his son's movies, he's always like, he worked hard, I can tell. Yes. It's always like this sort of like very vague statement. But he's trying so hard to be like, I can crack what a Ghibli movie is

[01:31:00] versus these guys who are like,

[01:31:01] maybe I'm taking what I learned from working there

[01:31:04] and expressing this in a different way,

[01:31:06] my own prism at a different. I think it is a very... The building of the tower is when I got really locked into like... Right, but I think there is this belief that everything needs to be passed down and remain the same. Ah, Studio Ghibli needs to remain the same. Who's gonna take over that mantle?

[01:32:21] And I think the answer that this film

[01:32:23] both in how it is made and what the film is saying

[01:32:26] is that you don't need, and even the streaming thing. I remember talking to the guy who runs G-Kids in 2019, when we were doing the series, and he was like, they will never be streaming.

[01:33:42] He likes the sanctity of it needing to be a deliberate choice

[01:33:45] and engagement with a screening at a,

[01:33:47] you know, when they do the Ghibli Fest every year, You're arguing with Scrappy the Cat. Well, sure, but I'm addressing the point you made. Yeah. Yeah, like Disney's a company that makes like $90 billion a year. Yes. That's a lot of money. And they are not- Like, Jubilee is not a company that makes $1 billion a year. No. Like, yeah, it is a small concern, but- And despite the name, it is not a company that is about one creator Disney.

[01:35:03] Right?

[01:35:04] Right.

[01:35:04] It just isn't that.

[01:35:05] Well, it's still there.

[01:35:07] He just gotta go deep. Everyone who's been to the theme park is like, it's really a park. It's not that much of a theme park. It's philosophically so different than what we think of. And I'd love to go. Yeah. I also think there's a, I don't know Miyazaki's actual opinion on this. He might've spoken to it on an interview somewhere. I don't remember what it exactly is, but I would not be shocked if he is not concerned

[01:36:22] about the legacy of Ghibli after he goes.

[01:36:24] He's definitely not.

[01:36:25] He's pretty poking on this extensively.

[01:36:27] In that he's just like, it doesn't matter. L, which means I really must have made a long time ago. No L, no L. No L, no bit back on track. Christmas themed tumbler. Okay. So when I was in college, because I spanned those two departments, NYU connected me, MoMA had reached out to NYU and said,

[01:37:40] oh, we need help.

[01:37:42] We have a whole digital art wing of MoMA. share that opinion. Yeah. So no matter how much the artist tells you that this thing falling apart and dying at a certain point is beautiful and wonderful, that is not your job. Right. And I think about that a lot because almost everyone that I know as, you know, working professionally in this industry as a writer and director and all this stuff, like I do like to move forward. And when I move on from something, I'm like, yes, it's if that disappeared, that's okay.

[01:39:05] Not from the universe, but likeenga tower that includes spheres. Yeah. Like objects that you cannot stack upon. It's non-Euclidean. And this kid keeps on pushing back on like, not even, you're giving me pieces that are

[01:40:20] fucking bullshit.

[01:40:21] Right.

[01:40:22] You basically gave me like a misfit.

[01:40:23] You gave me cursed pieces.

[01:40:24] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:40:25] It's the actual, it's like these are cursed.

[01:40:26] These are from tombs.

[01:40:28] Yes. aren't too many artists who are like, let me tell you what I was trying to do. Now it happens. I would disagree. I think there are today too many artists who tried to do that. Maybe there's too much of that going on. Well, it tries to be nuts about the Kubrick stuff where it's like, actually the carpet means that. He's yelling at us. Yeah, and it's like, no, these. He doesn't build movies that way. Yes, and that's the whole purpose of semiotics, right?

[01:41:41] Is this stuff gets baked into us as creators

[01:41:44] and it comes out in ways that we don't even know.

[01:41:46] And it does Luca, which she calls moon and stars. Anyway, you mentioned Demi-Shia a while back, you know, 20 minutes ago. Boy and the Heron is the movie we should talk about though. Right? Yes. 1943, right? Yes, what a time.

[01:43:01] The war is afoot.

[01:43:02] World War II.

[01:43:03] Is happening.

[01:43:04] Yes.

[01:43:05] There are fire bombings happening in Japan They do not usually have any beginnings this visceral. And there's a freneticism too, and a specificity to the images that feels very both Miyazaki, but also there's an edge to it that is not totally Miyazaki, that feels more like other automa... It's very interesting right off the top. The fire itself feels very Akira, and I forget the term you used,

[01:44:22] of just the move towards realism that happened in the 80s,

[01:44:26] but just like there is an intensity there

[01:45:25] visceral moment to me very early in the film that like I queued into, which is, you know, obviously we know that the idea of Ma, the moment between moments that Miyazaki talks about a lot.

[01:45:31] These spaces between moments are what defines a Miyazaki film to me in a lot of ways. And there's

[01:45:38] one early on here where we're introduced to the new no, this is mine, but in this moment, this is where I have to rest and where I have to find comfort in this thing that is so foreign to me. And it's like this really beautiful moment that again, I feel like other filmmakers might focus on the big feelings of all of that.

[01:47:00] And Miyazaki is like, no, it's these moments between like

[01:47:03] him putting on the clothes to go help his dad put out

[01:47:07] the fire at the hospital. he was more actively involved because once he completed that he went back and started all right, I'm gonna go correct animation I'm gonna go draw some keyframes and dive in there and and then when they're like Jesus Christ like this will never be done Right. Yes. There's talk about how in the past it had been 10 minutes of film per month, right? And this current process they were producing one minute of film per month because I think this movie was originally announced in

[01:48:24] 2017 coming through them when the four little ladies show up. They're like, okay, we're in. This is normal. Isn't it like eight of them at the beginning? Or is it always four? They're four maids, like credited in the cast. I mean, there's a bunch of them. Can I tell you that my, when they came on screen, my first instinct, I had two things that they reminded me of.

[01:49:40] Number one, the Cenobites,

[01:49:42] and number two, the Killer Conse from Outer Space,

[01:49:44] in the sense that it was like,

[01:49:46] oh, there's like six because there's the parakeets They're the the sort of the creatures that look like the doctor who had opposed. Yeah, the little souls. They're the maids Yeah, who are the other ones the frogs become ocean. Yeah, errands become mess the pelicans become yeah Four different types of birds a lot of right. Yeah, I will say my favorite character in this film

[01:51:02] I'm just gonna say it right now best turn of the film. Maisel aside. As a current Emmy voter and a WGA voter, I get a lot of screeners and things like that.

[01:52:22] For years, the Marvelous Mrs. Maisel would send like

[01:53:22] produce from our partner at like Whole Foods. Like I like it when they lean in.

[01:53:24] I'll also say I've never gotten one of those and been like,

[01:53:27] oh, I got a vote for Ms. Mason.

[01:53:29] That's the ultimate truth of this is you might be like,

[01:53:32] wow, I still drink out of my Niad bottle, but not like,

[01:53:36] and that's why Jodie Foster was the winner of best,

[01:53:39] you know, it's like, no, why would you ever do that?

[01:53:41] Whatever. Okay.

[01:53:42] Okay, back to Boy in the Hair and Sorry,

[01:53:44] that's a brief aside.

[01:53:45] I did hear that G-Kids are sending out hair

[01:53:47] install voting members though. It's going to win every movie gets a torch and you snuff the ones that don't win. Yeah, would be a lot of torches. Would you, if they gave you a gavel on the condition that you wore the bearist or would you accept? Yes. Okay. No bits back. So while he's at this home, yes, there are these four lovely crones tooling around,

[01:55:01] but there's also a mysterious gray heron that is chilling.

[01:55:07] It's a little aggressive.

[01:55:08] I wouldn't say chilling. Apparently Suzuki had to, because Miyazaki was having trouble writing the grand uncle because of his sorrow having lost Takahata, is that he started, he was like refocused around the Heron and then the Heron became this character that evolved and became, you know, because they have this really aggressive relationship. Because in the beginning here, the Heron is scary.

[01:56:22] And it's like evil and it's doing the Heron voice

[01:56:25] and screaming at people, at him what the film is about. I do too. It puts a weird focus on that only. I think if you're a generic American audience. So what should it be called? Grand Uncle's Dreamscape Adventure. Well, that kind of gives up the ending. Okay, fine. I think it should be called The Boy versus the Parakeets. I mean, how do you live is just such an evocative cradle. Of course, but like... Magic Rock Castle.

[01:57:41] That's kind of fun.

[01:57:43] Sure.

[01:57:44] Castle in the Water.

[01:57:45] Mmm.

[01:57:46] Castle on the Ground.

[01:57:47] How do you say the name? Yeah, but you're also like I love this. Yes. Yeah, at least I am Yeah, it's cooking for me but It is it is deeply upsetting. Yes. It's very setting Okay, so his dad's basically abandoning him here because yes kind of like I'm going off to work busy to make airplane canopies Yeah, that makes airplane canopies. Yeah as you referenced earlier

[01:59:02] He they have a car which is unusual. He drives him to school. That's no good for him