The Color of Money with Chris Ryan

[00:00:01] [SPEAKER_08] Blank Check with Griffin

[00:00:50] [SPEAKER_06] It's a massive effect to his voice But when does old Newman begin? Is it Butch Cassidy? Is it The Sting? No, I'm saying later

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_02] He's playing mentor Yeah, that's what I'm saying. That's when it begins But then he's still kind of badass I'm like, is it Verdict? Verdict, he's old

[00:01:09] [SPEAKER_06] Yes, that's for sure No, but like absence of malice He's the same vibe, right?

[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_02] Maybe it's that. But you know what I'm saying The voice changes. He becomes Doc Hudson

[00:01:18] [SPEAKER_06] It gets a little gravelly It gets a little... there's a little cigar Yeah, but what about like Slapshot? It's like, I guess you know what? He's a man who aged perfectly He did Like every single decade He wasn't the Tom Cruise thing of like I'm fucking clinging on and clinging on Yeah And then by collateral he's like What if I show you a glimpse? And then I'll pull it back

[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, okay. Here's a question that I'm certain Our guest can answer And I think you can answer as well, David I have never seen Ford Apache Apache the Bronx Absence of malice feels to me like the earliest I can identify He is playing old man I mean... What is the voice like in Ford Apache?

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_06] I don't remember the voice But he's definitely like a veteran in that Right? Like he's like the old fucking drunk at the office Right Precinct And then they're gonna have to shoot a bunch of...

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_05] I think that there's also like a A relationship to how much a character drinks in the movie That dictates the voice

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_06] Right, like how gravelly does he want to go because he... Well, like Quintet What's he like in that? I just remember him being cold

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, it's a cold ass movie It's a snowy movie I think it's an 80s thing He enters the 80s And as you said, he aged perfectly And I think one of the things that people study about Paul Newman Is how distinct his eras were without bumps Where he kept adjusting to the time And identifying correctly What is the best movie star I could be right now? How do I fit the culture? I think this is only our second Paul Newman film After Hudsucker

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_06] After the Hudsucker proxy

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_02] Which Hudsucker, he's obviously doing full on old man But also full on evil He's playing sort of the comedic The comedically heightened version of this guy What's your favorite Newman? This person Is it this?

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_05] Well, I would probably say It's this or Slapshot Yeah, I mean Slapshot I mean like that's a really hard question Because the second you ask that Five movies jump into the front of my mind If not ten, yeah But it's this Slapshot verdict

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_02] Verdict Verdict I think is his best performance I agree It's the one he should have won the Oscar for Right? Not to be rude to today's film But that's Who beats him that year? Ben Kingsley Yeah, right We always come up against this

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_06] It's like It's just a lot of those Newman losses Yeah You're like, well how did he lose? And then you're like Oh, I guess that was a big one

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_02] We've covered a couple of these films Where you go I don't understand how it's possible Nick Nolte didn't win Best Actor for Prince of Tides Oh, it was the Silence of the Lambs here Because you're like Where you're like The most historic buzzsaw Is the only thing that could have beaten this performance

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_06] How did he lose for HUD? He lost to Sidney Poitier How did he lose for Cool Hand Luke? Which he maybe like You know, maybe that's it He loses to Rod Steiger for In the Heat of the Night Steiger's a legend That movie wins Best Picture That was a major film Yeah It's a major film But it's also like He's also up against Warren Beatty for Bonnie and Clyde And Dustin Hoffman for The Graduate So it's like there's three young stars All in kind of their most iconic role Right

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_02] But then it's interesting because he's And so the Oscars are just like Steiger He's the older guy You say young star But there's like a big difference He's older Between Beatty and Hoffman Are breaking through at a whole new level That's Newman identifying his second phase Arguably That's the whole thing It's like he was the one guy Who really successfully without a hitch Made the transition from being a studio system star To a new Hollywood star

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_02] By seeming like the cool Slightly older guy who gets it

[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_05] The way that he kind of treats age In a lot of his movies from like the late 60s on Or like early 70s on Is always really interesting to me Because I think in Slapshot He's supposed to be playing somebody who's like 41 Who's at the absolute end of the line Like as a hockey player But is like He looks like he's 60 And then in Color of Money I think he's supposed to be in his 60s But looks kind of like a guy who could be like 45 at times You know like

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_05] The way he dresses The way he moves

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_02] It's fascinating And he obviously remained unbelievably handsome until his dying day But there's a lot of power in the fact that he didn't fight it Right? That he didn't try to look younger That he wasn't worried about seeming cool or hot I think this is part of what made him survive Was that it was like He could always play Oh, it's surprising how much this guy Is still kind of got it Versus being like He's trying to act a little more

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_02] He's got it than he is

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah, like all those movies that like He kind of capped his career with I felt like he was Incredibly comfortable in his own skin He may not have been But like when he's making like What Nobody's Fool And stuff like that

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_02] You're just like You're just like I mean it was That like metallic sheen Felt so natural on him Doc Hudson, that grill That's right He wore it with such comfort and grace

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_03] I've never seen any cars

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_02] Well, he's the local judge of a town He's also a car He used to be a race car He was the fabulous Hudson Hornet And then unfortunately he made a mistake He turned too hard

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_03] David How do we stop this?

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_06] Is that what it is?

[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_02] I don't know

[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_06] I'd love it to stop Is that what it is? He turned too hard? I've seen the movie

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_02] It was like He basically was He invented drifting Is kind of the tragic backstory of Cars Is he really? Yeah, kind of

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_05] It's like American drifting Not Tokyo drifting Correct Have you seen Cars?

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_06] I haven't So it's like Lightning McQueen Lightning McQueen's like I want to be the The Piston Cup champion or whatever And he's like Well, I was that And he's like, fuck you No, you weren't He's like, I've got the trophies right here, bitch And then he's got all these like 50s trophies

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_02] Cars is Doc Hollywood basically beat for beat But the reveal is that the grumpy old man in town Who's like, I force you to community service Is like, actually I used to be the best racer in the world

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_08] Right

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_02] And then he sees him out in the desert just fucking drifting Right And Owen Wilson's like, what?

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_00] You're not trying to do that I can't believe this Wow

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_02] And he's like There was a fault in my tires

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_06] You know I auditioned for Nobody's Fool, right?

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_02] You've told this story many times

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_06] Did you really? Your only auditioned, right? I think so I mean an audition is too strong But like they came to my school

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, I also forgot You auditioned for Elizabeth Salander

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_06] But that was such a big casting call They didn't go with the dragon tattoo And I pierced my nipple Fincher or the original? No, for Fincher Yeah And Fincher was like, Rooney already did that Yeah I'm not impressed

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_02] But people forget just how wide that casting net was

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_06] No, Nobody's Fool was when you were still living in New York, right? Yeah, because that movie came out in 94 They came to PS87 and they just talked to a bunch of kids I mean I assume they were just, you know, casting a net for I don't even know what the kid, who the kid is

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_02] Sometimes I push back And I acknowledge the privilege I have experienced in my life But sometimes I push back on what I feel like from our listeners Is an attitude of everything in New York Is like dainty little privileged bubble shit And then I consider the fact that basically if you are a child In any school in New York City At some point you probably get lassoed into an audition Maybe it was just a public school, but yeah I mean I do think No, genuinely, like movies that would film in like the tri-state area

[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_02] Maybe it happens less now in the era of fucking self tapes and zooms and whatever But I would say like through the 2000s There was a kind of like New York City If they're looking for a kid And the director's like, we want someone who's not polished Right, right They would just like put up flyers at every single school

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah, they would shoot that stuff around here too Like they shot like basketball diaries I can't remember if it was at my wife's school Or if it was at the like adjacent boys school But it was like, they were just Hollywood East They were just letting it rip

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_06] The role went to Alexander Goodwin Who then appeared in Box of Moonlight and Mimic That could have been you Could have been me? That was about it

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah Anyway, you should watch Cars Okay Should I like now and then I'll come back? Yeah

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_06] Well, what is that? An 85 minute movie? I mean No, it's long Oh God, it's almost two hours long That movie is so bad It's really bad It's like indefensible

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_02] Well, but here's the thing Cars 2 is so much worse And then Cars 3 isn't great But it's so much of a rebound That I would argue that Cars 2 makes Cars 3 look like Cars 1

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_05] Do you come out of Cars thinking Car excellence is not about excellent driving? Yeah, I mean that is what the movie's about Okay

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_06] You mean kind of the F1 argument of like What's the driver really doing here?

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_05] Well, more just like you have to be a study of human moves You know?

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_06] That is what the movie's about You know, I've only seen F1 once And I didn't realize I wasn't picking up what you were putting down

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_02] I'll say it's even more It's about the driver It's about the heart of the driver It's about the character Of the driver This movie has good dialogue Yeah This movie?

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_02] Yes, and I would say the lesson of Cars And the lesson of The Color of Money is

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_05] It's in the way that you use it! I... Which to be clear is not actually a line of dialogue in the script

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_06] No, but... Although it would be cool It would be funny if Bruce is like Got any advice and Numa went

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_09] It's in the way!

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_06] One day if I curate You know, rep screenings or whatever At my local theater that I own In this paradise world I imagine, right? Where I'm like, ah, David's here This would be part of a series that I would like to think about Of like movies where you want to Live the objectively like stressful low life Of the people involved Like you watch it and you're like What's cooler than being a pool hustler Who lives at bars? And it's like, excuse me That's a... That's not a good life You don't want it

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_06] I'm like, no, I think I want it I think I want to hang out with these guys all the time

[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_02] I was re-watching The Hustler the other night And texting you guys about it And I said, this is just the best life possible, right? You got a perfect face And you're a piece of shit

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_05] It's... Your life sucks I think that the festival could be like I want to live inside of this Yes And a lot of it is...

[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_02] That's the key It's like, you're watching movie stars play this You're watching people with supernatural charisma And incredible good looks Live through, objectively, the dregs

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah, they're exchanging 20s Like, it's just like guys smoking And being like, you owe me 20 Now you owe me 40

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_02] The Hustler's also a tragedy Like, I forgot how much that movie is Straight up It's a bummer It's a tragedy It's a guy whose life is broken And in trying to sort of solve himself He experiences greater tragedy But, right, right And that's all the backstory for this movie Which is so interesting That he doesn't give the big monologue Explaining what happened in the first film

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_07] Kid, I was a hustler I knew Piper Laurie

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_02] He sort of allures to it Yeah

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_07] If Piper Laurie shows up in your movie Nothing good's happening

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_06] It would be funny if they did like one legacy sequel Like, your next opponent is Minnesota Fats And then you like, you know Outcomes from the shadows Gleason, old I mean, was Gleason still alive? Do you know? So Because he's obviously in like Smoking the Bandit and stuff, right? There was a sequel He was, oh One year from death Yeah Gleason dies the next year

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_05] But this is the whole backstory Yes Okay, okay, we'll talk about it No, no, no, tell me

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_02] Because I haven't looked at the dust We'll get through it more in depth But there was a sequel book Called The Color of Money They basically only take the title from it But the book has major Minnesota Fats

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_06] Which makes sense If you're gonna write a sequel to The Hustler

[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_02] Like Even when they start developing scripts And go like Throw all that out Start fresh They kept writing in parts for Minnesota Fats And Newman was like I think we should get Gleason back And they finally were like It only made sense to basically Have like one extended scene We couldn't justify making him a bigger part But they offered it to Gleason And he was like Too small, not gonna do it

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah, I mean like And Newman was like He said and I agree That his like Participation in the movie Wouldn't really do much for the story Yeah! It was more like Being a force ghost You know like We were Sims and I were explaining this movie

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_02] Pot the ball Like he's just old Like sitting in a chair Yes? We were explaining this movie to your friend Ellen Cushing Yeah! A co-host of your secret podcast It's different, everyone subscribe I have a baseball podcast Oh you do? It's a big secret Yeah, I just recorded it in my friend's house Yeah! But we were trying to explain what this movie is She hadn't heard of it And I was like It's the original legacy sequel And David went Yeah, you're right Like And Minnesota Fats would have been the original Sort of like cheap pop Yeah! If he showed up for one scene

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_02] Or showed up in the post credits That would have been the original like The audience applauds when it happens But ten minutes later They feel gross about it

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_05] I also don't know that The Hustler Exists in people's like Collective imaginations as like A sentimental favorite That they're like Could we bring Could we bring Minnesota Fats back? Like It's a cool character Yeah! But it's like That wouldn't hit the way Like the way we Like work these No! Like legacy cameos Into these new movies

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_02] No! I mean Jackie Gleason Was so iconic That maybe there's A degree of that And When's the movie he makes with Jack With Richard Pryor? The toy? Oh, that's early That's 82? Yeah! His final film is Nothing in Common Which is the Gary Marshall Tom Hanks Bad Dad comedy

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_06] Right! Where they're both They're looking at each other On the poster going like But Gleason's got a stokey Told the story many times You start a fat cigar

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_02] But there was The The Foundation of Our friendship Sims and I Was doing movie trivia night Together at a bar called Videology And There was a question of What is the name of the movie That Jackie Gleason and Tom Hanks did together And I was like Oh fuck I can picture the poster And the two of them looking at each other And it's not nothing but trouble It's nothing Nothing Nothing And I couldn't figure it out And I looked at one of our team mates Whose name is K-A-M-E-N

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_02] And I went Common I wouldn't have got it if I wasn't looking at his face And remembering what his name is Gleason could have done it But yeah Why was I saying this? Oh, that you It's a legacy Does Minnesota Fats hold the same sort of like cultural memory? Yeah, is he Yoda? You did discover Sims that there was a licensed but not connected to the movies Licensed off the books only Sega Genesis game Genesis and Saturn Okay

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_06] Called Minnesota Fats Pool Legend Did you check it out? Did you buy a Saturn maybe? No, but like I think the last 40 thing I do is

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_04] Go get eBay and buy a Saturn and get this

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_02] It's just so funny I was seeing that it's technically the sequel to a different Billiards game Yeah And clearly they were just like we need our Madden-esque hook What's the name that moves units? We're not gonna pay the Jackie Gleason likeness rights But can we just get the name of the character from the book And put some other fat guy on the card

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_06] Yeah, they have some full motion video of just a Minnesota Fats type Mostly it's, you know, pool Mostly you're playing pool

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_05] So that looks like basically like a bar blackjack machine version of it It does Yeah, I can't remember if I've ever played a pool video game It never really came into the rotation

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_02] Doesn't feel like a good translation I would also say the fact that Billiards is a tabletop game Yeah I like to play video games of things I can't do

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_05] Right Yeah Right Like street fighting

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_02] You're playing Sega Genesis in like a rumpus room in your dad's basement There's like a 20% chance there's already a Billiards table next to the Genesis No, no, no, no, no, no, no, just over here it's even better

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_06] It's even better Because it's on the TV

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_02] All right, what is our podcast, Griffin? Our podcast is called Blank Check with Griffin and David I am Griffin I'm David And it's in the way that we use it That's right It's a podcast about filmography as directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want and sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce, baby This is the film that is derisively thought of as his purist paycheck gig

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_02] That is sort of the weird legacy of this movie within his career We were both arguing that's kind of bullshit But it certainly got hit with that at the time Must admit though, it is the guarantor that allows him to immediately then make Last Temptation of Christ and Goodfellas Yeah, and it stabilizes his career Neither of those movies happen in that way if not for this Of course It stabilizes his career is the right way to put it

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_06] It just, right His career is in trouble And he takes a gig He does a fucking great job with it It doesn't feel dispassionate

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_05] It wins Oscar

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_06] It makes money It's a line drive down the middle

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_05] Right, and it's so well made In the lexicon of blank check this would be You say stabilizer, it's like the guarantor

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_02] Guarantor is the term we usually use That is

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_06] That's like the thing that gets you the blank check It's the hit that lets them give you the blank check Right You can't call Last Temptation a blank check Because that's him being like I'm gonna spend every penny Yes Like, but I don't get that much You know, we're gonna go out to the desert

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_02] Last temptation is you mortgage the house

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_06] Right And he's like, if we put a pipe of fire That can be saved

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_05] If I promise to make Kate fear Will you let me do this?

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_06] But that movie was so risky And he had tried to do it for so long Like, his blank check is Gangs of New York Yes That is his true, like I really This non-fiction book about Bowery gangsters Can I have $100 million and build a set? New York is also the first blank check

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_02] That's the first form That's the pure blank check Right And I would say basically post-Gangs of New York Most of his 21st century work is blank checky He does

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_06] But Gangs of New York is the most

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, no, 100% Right But then I think he just enters a phase where it's like Here's the deal if you wanna make a Marty movie Unless it's silence Unless he's back to Last Temptation I know this is so risky that I gotta make the smallest version of it possible He's like, I want a nine month shoot and $150 million

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah, and then he also gets I guess to use the language of it Once the departed comes along and he does the run with DiCaprio It's like, well, I have this guy co-signing the lease Exactly

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_02] But stabilizer is a term we haven't used before But you're right Let's add it to the lexicon Because it is a thing that's Sometimes we'll talk about a comeback film But a comeback film

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_06] He's like getting his credit limit back up That's what it is To the 700s Right It was like 492

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_02] Like Raiders of the Lost Ark as a comeback post-1941 Is a pure like, he bottomed out And then he struck gold as hard as you possibly could This is just like, everything is kind of safe again You know, he still has to like put a lot on the line to make Last Temptation But notably this was his one movie where he was like I'm coming in under schedule, under budget to prove a point You know, I looked on Reddit

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_06] Color of Money is generally agreed to be the first legacy sequel Some people are like, does Return to Oz count? It's the year before I'm like, not really Like, because it's not I mean, yes, it has the characters But like, it's too weird It's too weird You're not repeating the same designs Obviously not repeating the same cast You know, some people are like It doesn't have the same iconography Dawn of the Dead kind of counts Because it was a long like, wait between movies No, but I'd say that's just a sequel But like, they don't have the same characters It's just a sequel It's a sequel Yeah

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_05] It's very much like, the hustlers here Our friend The rejected tagline for this movie was Nine ball is rotation pool

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_02] Who's our guest? Our guest today In person, in studio for the first time Very excited Chris Ryan Off of, well Not by the time this comes out But you're You're still kind of coasting off of CR month Yeah CR month is extending into CR year I was gonna say It might be a CR decade now

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_05] I hope I mean, yeah I guess Why not me, right? Why not you? Everybody else is getting smacked

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_06] Kind of Yeah But I got to be there You got to be there And they got to beat the Celtics Yes

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_05] Which was great And we salute them and thank them for doing that I salute them and thank them for doing that And thank you to Daryl Morey Who, as of this recording Had just lost his job Yes After putting together that team

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_06] Will he Like, have another NBA job? Or is this it? Uh I wonder whether or not

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_05] Sorry to do two minutes This is like

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_03] Also, did we say the team name? I'll allow it The Sixers The Philadelphia 76ers

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_05] The Philadelphia 76ers And this is their general manager, president Who got fired after the season Right And I

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_06] And kind of a king of NBA dorkdom Who has maybe, you know Become a little bit of a fossil

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_05] I think he could do like A very successful podcast If he wanted to do it Oh, he absolutely could do that

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah But like, does he want to run another I don't know I will call out that this is A mini-series on the films of Martin Scorsese It's called Podcast Fellas Today we're talking about The Color of Money We were originally trying to It felt obvious To get you on Master and Commander The Far Side of the World And we were like Last time we did it over Zoom It'd be really nice to do it in person Schedules weren't lining up And around the time where it was like Do we just do Master and Commander over Zoom? Is there a chance you end up coming here? We're like

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_02] We're in the middle of our March Madness thing And it looks like It's probably going to shake out To be Tony Scott versus Martin Scorsese And you said Well, if that happens I'm moving to New York And I'm on every episode It did kind of feel like You know what? Let's save it Because between those two guys You're going to have a pick you're passionate about And then when it landed on Marty We said What are your... You know And you said like Obviously I'd do any of them But these five are the big ones Immediately felt like Color of Money Just sort of jumps out as being correct The best possible episode

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_02] In a lot of ways There is a rewatchable's

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_06] Color of Money episode There is I listened to it Yes You, Bill and Sean, the big three You know, it's great I don't remember all the specifics

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_05] I'm just not done talking about it That was your take I was kind of like With Master and Commander I was like Ooh, this would be fun Because I've never actually done it I've never actually like How has that not been a rewatch? I guess whatever Maybe eventually it will be Maybe eventually it will be Maybe eventually And that could have been one Because like during CR month I had, I would say 85% curatorial power You know Or I would be making the suggestions And then Or Bill would be making the suggestions And I would pick Or I would pick As Christopher Nolan always says It's never truly a blank check

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_02] It's collaborative You know what I mean? We all have bosses They're always conditions

[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_05] But what were some of the picks? For CR month It was Sicario Uh Sick Fargo Sicario Sicario Fargo To Live and Die in LA LA Confidential And I feel like Nice Guys Nice Guys Which I feel like Which was weirdly like A bunch of LA movies Which I didn't intentionally do Yeah, it's true You didn't do like An East Coast movie But it was a very cool month To be able to just be like

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_00] Fuck, they shot that right there

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_05] Right, right, right, right, right

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_02] This is awesome You know? It's become a less frequent occurrence As the years have gone on Just because our schedule Has too many masters to serve But Ben, we allot Ben's Choice Oh Every once in a while It used to be

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_03] It was like sort of a palate cleanser Yeah Between a series

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_02] But kind of our closest equivalent But that, if you want to just tell Chris Some of the Ben's Choice canon Let's hear it Blatch Bang Under Siege 2 Yes Has never seen Under Siege 1 Oh, now has

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_05] I have, finally

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_02] At the time, hadn't

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_05] Not a legacy sequel No Clifford Okay Not the dog What's, what is it then? The Martin Short movie Oh, okay Have you not seen it? I have not Oh I'll check it out Yeah, it's worth it

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_03] Okay It's basically the most evil 14, or like Child 12 year old child Martin Short plays a child who torments Charles Burt

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, I remember this Yeah, I never saw it But I do remember It's sort of like the omen If it's not supernatural But the child is played by an adult Yeah, yeah

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_03] It's really fun

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_02] It feels like he possesses a cosmic evil But he doesn't actually have powers

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_03] Sure Right Assassin's Creed Yep Fassbender one? Yeah I'm not aware of another

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_02] That's similarly A movie Ben loves Despite at the time he picked it You didn't even pick the Danish Assassin's Creed The original one? Okay

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_04] Not a big deal

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_02] David, just don't talk for a while Similarly, Ben had never played a second of any Assassin's Creed game before Oh, interesting Choosing it for an episode, having watched the movie 20 times Sure And then most recently, Edge of Tomorrow Yeah, Edge of Tomorrow is great

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_05] But anyway, I mean like I had not talked about Master of Command before Yeah But I obviously have spoken about Color of Money on Rewatchables And then in various like forms of the big picture But I still feel like there's chalk on the stick You know what I mean?

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_02] I still feel like 15 fucking episodes on the Muppet movie While still every year pushing David to be like Can we do the proper Henson Oz combo series? And I question like Have I just shot, you know, my load on this? Have I shared the takes everywhere else? I'm like, every time I watch that movie I got new thoughts Yeah It's an endless well I'm never gonna run out of stuff to say And they're very similar movies The Muppet movie and Color of Money

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_06] I'm gonna string a little hammock Right under the desk for those

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_02] For the Muppet series This is a fucking rude joke That he says he's gonna go on vacation I'll just fucking Leave me in a room alone to monologue You won't even notice It's my swimming to Cambodia

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_06] Another thing about the Swedish chef

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_02] He's not, I wouldn't have much to say

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_06] He's not a major part in that film Triple H-Ping's fall Yeah, fucking right Yeah, that's right Went to, we went to baseball yesterday I was so happy We went to baseball as they say We went to see the Mets defeat the Tigers I'm going tonight too

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_02] You're going tonight?

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_06] Yeah Subway series Gotta see them

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, the Subway series is starting?

[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_06] Yeah, I mean, they're Mets Yankees

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_02] I liked that as a kid Sure It's fun It's very rare as a kid Rare Good hook

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_03] Now in case the listeners were wondering You know, was this just a regular sort of night Or day I should say Out at the baseball game No, why

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_06] Why was I so interested in going? It was funny that Right, Griffin was like Should we go like a baseball game? David's throwing to the Mets We could do it as a team One second later Just text like Star Wars Day I found this We're going to this one Yeah Free bobblehead We gotta go Oh, you have the bobblehead to show up Great I think we should also Unveil Nolan McQueen Wow

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_03] Very cool Yeah I do think we should leave some of this For the Mandalorian Yeah, we will talk about it

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, we will have happened We're just telling Chris

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah Okay, cool

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_02] David Yes If your daughter designed her own credit card What would it have on it? Um Probably like rainbows and unicorns and stuff Are those the most popular right now? I mean I got another question If you got a notification Every time your kid spent money What do you think it would be for? Look, she's not quite there yet But Cash App now offers managed accounts for kids Oh! Ages 6 to 12 that grow with them all the way to adulthood All with no subscription fees Because building money habits shouldn't cost extra

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_06] The account runs through you So you're not just watching from the sidelines You're actually in it with them That's what makes it a real teaching tool Every time money comes in or goes out It's a chance to talk about it together So whether it's birthday money from grandma Or allowance for cleaning their room Or saving up for something you really want You can see it all and help guide the decision along the way And their savings and habits and history carry forward Every step of the way From a pair managed account at 6 To a teen account at 13 To a full account at 18

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_02] It's structured independence You set spending limits You set spending limits and you can lock or unlock Their Cash App Visa card anytime from your own app Automate their allowance and track the flow of money in and out For a limited time New Cash App customers who are parents

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_06] Can use our exclusive referral code Family10 to earn $10 Download Cash App Enter the referral code in your profile Send $5 to a friend within 14 days And you will receive $10 Terms apply Download Cash App today And open a managed account for your child Visit our link in bio

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_05] When did you first see this film? This is some kind of VHS rental In like, 88, 89 Right, in 86, how old are you? Nine Yeah, you're not So a little... But I wouldn't put it past my dad No, your dad was a filter

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_02] And I could see nine-year-old being You being obsessed with this movie immediately

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_05] And I have very early memories Because it was the 80s That like, I would spend Sundays Not in pool halls But in bars In bars With my dad Where he would be like Here are some quarters to go play video games Yes And I'm gonna sit here For five hours and watch football And that's how we built this country We need to go back to that Exactly How close or far are you

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_06] Don't look at me? If you were in the air And you would like Hang out with your friends' dads They'd be like We're going to the pub Yeah I don't wanna look at your faces Like, I will be seen Try not to inhale Too much secondhand smoke You kids run around Like, sometimes you would go to like A pub that had like a backyard And be like Just fucking get out of here If you want some chips I'll get you some chips

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_05] But like the... When I saw the movie Even before I understood any of what I was watching I understood the... The accuracy in which it captured like A certain feeling of those places

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_02] I was going to say I... When I tried to imagine The cartoon child version of you I... I imagine you were a little similar to my brother Who... If a movie was about sports in any way He was 1000% locked in Especially if it's about like The actual... The psychology The milieu The world The business Any of those things It didn't matter how mature it was How dry it was He was just like I...

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_02] This is a portal into a world I want to understand As I've said before in this show His ninth birthday party Was making all of his friends at school Watch a VHS of Michael Mann's Ali And it was his seventh time watching it He's nine So it was like his Assassin's Creed Yeah Right And he's like... Sure yeah It's interesting politically what he's like You know? There's some prism of sports through this That's then like an understanding of how adults function

[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_02] Or history or...

[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_05] Talking about this with somebody else Because I was talking about Excalibur With Paul who works at Radiance and Transmission The DVD label And we did a pod of his podcast called Old Movies We were talking about Excalibur And I was like Man, that time in your life Where you're actually just watching movies Entirely based on your own personal passions Yeah... But not movies You're like, so if this movie is about a thing that I love Like King Arthur or baseball or whatever

[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_05] Then I'll watch the movie no matter how good or bad it is And I'll watch the movie 45 times But then eventually that turns into I love movies So I want the movie itself to be successful in some aesthetic way And it's like this This is right at a turning of the page for me Like whenever I actually watched it And then I've just returned to it over and over again Just because at any given point in my life I'm deeply fascinated by some aspect of it

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_05] Whether it's Richard Price or Scorsese or Newman or Cruise or whatever

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_06] So it's just always been there Is this... Do you think this would have been the first Scorsese you saw? You know, if you're like 10, 11 years old Like it's like You know... That's a great question Have you seen like Taxi Driver or Raging Bull yet? Like probably not

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_05] No, and if I did Because like my parents would watch movies While I was like kind of like upstairs And I would come to the landing And sort of peek down the stairs to see what they were watching This is why I remember Miami Vice always The TV show so vividly Is that I was like I was not allowed to be there Too grown up but But I would watch it from like 30 feet away Yeah on a down angle

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_02] It was my mom with ER and Seinfeld The only two TV shows she respected

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_06] My mom also ER was like

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_02] It was the double barrel

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_06] ER and NYPD Blue were the big two I remember Oh sure Where it's like alright out of the room And then pretty quickly with ER I got to stay in the room Because she was like I guess it's medical Like it's not bad

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_05] It's like you're learning lessons Yeah Don't do this It's not that lurid

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_06] Maybe I'll become a doctor instead of a dirty film critic Then instead I watched Ally McBeal with her And was like I want to be a lawyer They all hang out in a fun office And do songs And see babies That was Ed for us

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_02] We were into the bowling alley lawyer Not the sexy lawyer Did your dad take you to screenings? Yeah Well this was my other question Just of the era Was your dad ever getting screeners for reviews Or was he always going to a screener

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_05] No they had like a pretty robust Like the Philadelphia critics would go see And it would be the Inquirer And the Daily News And the TV critics And you know the WHYY critic Exactly And the NPR person

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_06] Back when fucking things were correct Yeah There was like a robust local journalism Yeah

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_05] I mean I went to a My sort of earliest Most crystal clear memory of this Of being with him Is for Rocky 4 At a real palace on Chestnut Street In Philly And this was the good cut And that's the year before Rocky 4 is 85 Right? Yeah and him snapping at someone For talking during Rocky 4 Hell yeah The premiere of it And being like Yeah Right this is Rocky 4

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_06] And we are in Philadelphia

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_04] There might be some crowd going

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_06] Go get a rock

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_04] And he's just like I'm watching this You know It's like Can't you put it together What's happening here? I'm watching here

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_02] I was always fascinated by Like especially I feel like Talk shows in the 90s Where the host would talk about like Hey I saw your movie The studio sent me a screener And I would be like Right so like David Letterman Is watching a new release movie Before it's come out On VHS in bed Yeah do you think he's watching Color of Money And then just like

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_05] Newman's here tonight

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_02] That would always be the implication And I was always curious about like What percentage of film critics Are being sent these screeners Versus they're telling them They have to go to the theater I don't ever remember There being an advanced tape At my dad's house I think it was just a lazy Fucking talk show host thing Yeah

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_06] I probably Didn't see this movie Until I was in college And was sort of like Embarking on being Like a Scorsese completist Or whatever And was like Oh I should watch that one I definitely saw The Hustler When I was a teenager Because my dad loved that movie

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_02] I saw The Hustler in high school Yes As sort of my Self-imposed film education Right I had never seen this movie in full I had basically What? Whoa! This was like a Cloverfield monster Like watching it I was like I have seen almost every scene of this Yeah But it was a Oh I'm watching 20 minutes on cable I'm seeing scenes on YouTube Kind of thing And This is like a big cable movie Yeah Right? Yeah

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_06] This is all of it

[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_02] But I had never truly like Sat down and watched it From beginning to end Very Very little of it felt Totally new to me But the experience of watching it as a whole was Yeah And I re-watched The Hustler And then watched this Straight through

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_05] And I would say probably in There's There's a long period of time Where I watch the first hour of this a lot The first hour of this is like Better than Citizen Kane And then And then it goes into the kind of twilight of middle-aged Like Yeah Which is good But

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_02] There was a little less thrilling There was a drop off for me We've been talking about this Because some of the weird movies have this as well Where we were like A movie that remains excellent But the first 45 minutes to an hour feels like Hypnotic Like supernaturally powerful Like I can't believe it

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_06] This is dancing on the edge of a pin Like this is the best thing I've ever seen Right And then Right And then the third act you're kind of like I guess that makes sense that they did that But I'm a little less

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_02] The original Hustler by the way Sort of has that too Where like The opening Minnesota Fats like challenge Is half an hour There's basically a mono scene That is like There's a little cold open scene Do one hustle And then there's basically half an hour Of like one endless night That is transfixing It's hypnotic

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_05] So the other thing That immediately grabbed me About this movie When I was young Even if I couldn't finish it Or found the second half of it To be like incomprehensible Just because of like What emotional pain is this guy going through As he gets manipulated by Forrest Whitaker and stuff Like it was the language And immediately Immediately responding in a way like With Price and with Mamet When I was young I was like nobody's talking Like I've never heard people talk like this

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_05] But this is how people talk And that's That was always the thing And continues to grab me about it

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_02] I think similarly Any movie that introduces its own vocabulary Immediately has me leaning in If it's a vocabulary that is real I get the sense of This is giving me a look into a world Where people talk this way Rather than just Making up fake like planet names or whatever Especially the vocabulary of Con artists Scams Crimes

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_05] It's just crack to me Yeah and pool hustlers And I mean I just I still remember her Her saying on the snap Vincent Just being like what? A woman will say on the snap to you?

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_06] Do or did you ever play a lot of pool?

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_05] I did play a fair amount of pool I was never that good Although

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_02] I'm sure that's what you say Yeah

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_05] I was just pretending you're drunk This is crazy I've never done this before I'll take any old cue It's fine Weird luck Couldn't do that again But I got I think enough of a run In a time in American history Where it was pretty routine To have a pool table in a bar Sure

[00:39:36] [SPEAKER_02] And now it is increasingly rare That is true I can't remember the last time I was at a bar that had A billiards table

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_06] So I used to It's so funny you keep saying Billiards table Which makes it sound very classy I'm a classy man I used to hang out at two bars That still have pool tables Basically for all my 20's My best friend was in a band And every Saturday The band would rehearse Then I would hang out with them At the bar afterwards

[00:39:59] [SPEAKER_02] You should just say Jared Leto 30 seconds tomorrow You don't need to be catering

[00:40:03] [SPEAKER_06] My best friend Molly Is the bassist in an art rock band Called Thrillington God bless him I went to several of those concerts with them Yeah sure I mean I was always at a And a full circle bar in Williamsburg Which I think is still there Where you get free drinks on your birthday And buttermilk in Park Slope Which is still there And has a pool table on a You know slight slant But you know it's there And I would play pool all night I'm terrible I think objectively But what's better than fucking

[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_05] Racking some balls with your bros Yeah There's also like for most of those Bar pool tables They're like Do you know what the other side of this Is right against the wall So don't Don't put yourself in any kind of position Where you have to shoot from that side Of the table Love it whenever that's

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_03] When it's like a Friday night And like you know Someone is trying to play pool But it's so packed That you're like just getting hit by a stick When you're on your way to the bathroom So you don't must say

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_02] The circumstances The setup The equipment is not ideal But it's in the way that you use it There's also I live near a pool hall

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_06] Like not that far Like in Park Slope There's Ocean State Which still exists

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_02] Yes right Directed by Gary Ross Yeah

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_06] Yes a classic dingy ass Like basement With like 20 pool tables And like I've not been there in years I The guys who are there Are a certain kind of guy And I'm not up to playing pool with any of them They abide by the Assassin's Creed Yeah

[00:41:26] Basically

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_02] What's the one near Astor Place? I don't know

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_05] On University It's Fuck yeah I think it might be University Billiards Or something like that That sounds right Yeah That is the classic architecture of Up a relatively narrow staircase Amsterdam Billiards Yeah Amsterdam And then you're like How Wait When I look outside of this thing Like how are there 40 pool tables underneath? It's just a storefront And when you go inside It's like did Charlie Kaufman direct this? Like how is How did you guys find Like a full city block of pool tables

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_05] That go back this way?

[00:42:03] [SPEAKER_02] It's like Disney World Where the rides are never actually in the building They pretend the ride is in Yeah It's in some weird warehouse To the side You take a tram to get to the pool tables Right They lower you down underground It's also one of those places where like It does not matter what time of day it is If you walk up those stairs And look out the window it's night now Yeah

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah It's like they basically have poker room lighting Where it's just like yeah man Like whatever It's okay if you're here at 11am It's 9pm I can't say

[00:42:32] [SPEAKER_06] I don't think I've ever played 9 ball I always played 8 ball Obviously Like what any idiot knows how to play I played snooker in Britain sometimes But snooker is incredibly difficult

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_03] So I was gonna ask Yeah please Do they have a different name for pool hall? Like do they call it like a I don't know like a fucking snooker parlor You know what I think they spelled with a U A snookery

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_05] Do they have snookeries? Like or is it just there's a snooker table

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_06] Okay so this You guys are doing something that is What Americans do which they say snooker I remember my mom would say snooker Like I moved to England where they Televised snooker On primetime television Like you turn on I would turn on the TV And she'd be like Are you watching someone play pool? And I'm like it's snooker Like it's like it's fun It's cool to watch

[00:43:17] [SPEAKER_03] And it has the Is it where they have the little wood Like things on the table? No. Or is that something else? I have no idea what that Are you talking about Baccarat? No there's like a version of pool Where they have little like Oh I don't know Things on the table top I remember my uncle had it growing up I'll look what it is

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_06] I don't know I mean in Britain you You call it a pool parlor A billiard hall Whatever like you know But you know snookers I do know snooker

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_05] But snooker and cricket Remain like I could watch this for 300 years And not know the rules

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_06] There's nothing like Just google like Ronnie O'Sullivan Doing like a perfect break in snooker It's so cool But it's like It's nine reds And then six or seven colored balls And you have to do red Then color red then color Red then color And then you have to pocket All of the colors In a specific order It's like very complex And it's all about like Snookering someone Is putting the ball Where the other player Is gonna be fucked

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_02] This sounds like some Van Hemmersly teaching By billiards bullshit To invoke one of my favorite Comedy sketches of all time

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_05] I think one of the most ingenious Parts of Color of Muddy Is actually like Scorsese sets up nine ball pretty well You're like Yeah, you know what? I get it. You know like broadly I understand One to nine baby Yeah and then it's for TV And that it moves fast And they play a lot of games And you can get lucky No, it's true

[00:44:30] [SPEAKER_06] He's so good at not bothering you at all With like details about it Without right Like ignoring it He has the economics

[00:44:37] [SPEAKER_02] It's also the second Anyone's like Yeah, that's like Scorsese Picking up a paycheck You're like Do you think he's anything Less than thrilled By the potential Of how to shoot this game? Because this is not just like Flash style over substance shit He's got like You know, Paul Newman And a Richard Price script But I feel he is As cinematically activated

[00:44:58] [SPEAKER_06] Richard Price's first script That's wild You know, kind of like Hey, this celebrated novelist Is writing a screenplay Yeah Like it was like a big deal

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_02] But you just feel him like Rubbing his hands together And going like Oh shit On the impact of the cue Hitting the ball I could move the camera From here to here And it's all like You have found a way To make this game feel ecstatic The

[00:45:19] [SPEAKER_06] I mean, we'll talk about the movie But like The crash zoom When like When Newman Breaks And you're just like Oh, Martin Scorsese loves cocaine Like Like It's just like Martin Scorsese Who I don't even know where he But like he's like He understands Like you're just like Newman's like Oh shit, this is the greatest feeling in the world I forgot Like the way it like Just jumps on his face I think When he finally picks up a cue again

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_00] I think he's kicked it by this point He's kicked it I think he has

[00:45:45] [SPEAKER_06] But Scorsese's like I know how I would feel

[00:45:48] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah If someone like Gave me a line Right He's basically making a movie As he's just put his Vince to bed And is trying to be in his fast Eddie I just sell liquor era Yeah

[00:46:00] [SPEAKER_06] I'm gonna open the dossier Martin Scorsese I'm gonna tell you guys a little bit I do want to tell you that Right before this movie He did direct an episode of Steven Spielberg's amazing stories Called Mirror Mirror

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_02] We will be covering that on Patreon

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_06] I don't know much about it Have you seen

[00:46:17] [SPEAKER_05] I've only seen the title card That says directed by Martin Scorsese And people being like We used to do great things I was gonna say

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_02] Pretty good title card Yeah To put on anything A sign of quality Ben has just Kind of like a horror thing He's texted us a photo of a billiards table

[00:46:34] [SPEAKER_03] It's called Bumper Pool

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_02] Bumper Pool

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_03] Oh

[00:46:36] [SPEAKER_02] That's what I was talking about It looks like a fucking pinball table Yeah this looks very complicated I will say All this shit on the table

[00:46:42] [SPEAKER_03] And it was like a thing where I'm like I would have loved to have played When I was at my uncle's house But I was like I don't know what this is I don't know how to play this But that's what I thought Snooker was Anyway

[00:46:53] [SPEAKER_06] It's a 24 minute television film Six day shoot He didn't have final cut So I don't know that he really enjoyed it But it was his first ever horror movie Or horror thing And he loves like You know Val Lewton He loves like Mario Bava Obviously he's very into like Cronenberg Like he's into horror It's funny that he never Shutter Island Shutter Island's the closest Shutter Island is his Cape Fear's pretty horror Yeah both of those I would still Fundamentally call thrillers

[00:47:23] [SPEAKER_06] Shutter Island is definitely the closest Shutter Island he's really using He's The horror imagery of those film makers The touchstones of these guys Right And it kind of sounds like this new thing Cape Fear as well Yeah This new What's it called It happened at night originally Yeah it sounds like a gothic Hitchcock horror thing I hope so It sounds It's gonna be a little Rebecca Right yeah It's the only time he ever works with Michael Kamen I don't know why I'm talking about this It's not important We will also cover it on Patreon Right exactly Or we'll cover it right after this In 86 He's in a film that I watched relatively recently

[00:47:53] [SPEAKER_06] Because I'm watching a lot of 1986 movies For a big picture draft that may or may not ever happen Yes An undated big picture draft He is kind of like the third or fourth most important character In Round Midnight The uh Oh yeah Yeah He is like when Dexter Gordon comes to New York The fast talking like guy who's like Okay let me take you to the bars You know like I'll take you to your concert Mr. Mr. Dexter Gordon

[00:48:15] [SPEAKER_02] Chris we saw the Mandalorian and Grogu last night We just went to meet up with him at a bar And how is Dexter Gordon in it? Yeah Scorsese is so good in it It's insane

[00:48:27] [SPEAKER_05] It actually is crazy how suited he is to it He came in and told me that Scorsese is in it And for like a full minute I was like So Martin Scorsese just walks into the bar in the Mandalorian And starts doing Martin Scorsese I didn't know he was doing the voice of an alien

[00:48:45] [SPEAKER_02] Yes and I don't know if it's mocap I don't think they do much mocap in these movies But I will say the creature they really got his mannerisms down Okay You do feel like you're seeing It's true representation of Scorsese on screen And the performance is so good And I would say basically everyone else in the movie is so wooden And so like out of it And so like out of it And so like gripping our armrests Being like holy shit he's so fucking locked in

[00:49:09] [SPEAKER_06] The other one who's good is Stephen McKinley Henderson He is He's also great as another alien yes

[00:49:14] [SPEAKER_02] But it is this thing and I felt the same way watching his arc on the studio last season Where I'm like look he's arguably the greatest living American filmmaker I want him to make as many movies as he can with his remaining years Which hopefully are decades ahead of us I would love if he got some more acting roles in there as well I am always so happy anytime he is acting in something He is always so fucking good I don't want him to be like You know what it's fun being on shrinking

[00:49:43] [SPEAKER_05] I'll just do that instead of making films

[00:49:45] [SPEAKER_02] No but I'd love him to do more one two scene things Yeah

[00:49:51] [SPEAKER_06] Well Round Midnight is an example that he had been in Paris He was scouting locations for Last Temptation Like you know a prior version of it And like was like hanging out with Bertrand Tavernier The guy you know the director Links him with Erwin Winkler his producer Scorsese And is basically like you know He wants to make a film set in New York Blah blah blah And Bertrand is like you will have to play the owner of the club You know like when I do this

[00:50:20] [SPEAKER_06] And so that is why he's in that film He's very good Last Temptation obviously is Scorsese's 80s mountain That he's trying to climb Yeah You know and he's trying to do it in the early 80s It fails and so he makes After Hours As a sort of pivot out of that of like I'll just do something

[00:50:39] [SPEAKER_02] After Hours is kind of an interesting It's like a partial reset movie Where he just needed to show that he could make something that wasn't a disaster He needed to like get back on the horse Yes And not just like curl up in a ball Incredible movie Right It rules Yes But it was a cheap movie It was made independently Warner Brothers releases it It does okay He's sort of back in like a safety zone Without necessarily the studios trusting That they could give him a lot of resources

[00:51:09] [SPEAKER_02] And that he would use it responsibly

[00:51:10] [SPEAKER_05] That is also another movie which is somehow not made on cocaine Yeah Where it's just But it is the sense memory of cocaine for me It's

[00:51:19] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah Both of these movies feel like If I'm going to truly not touch that shit anymore

[00:51:27] [SPEAKER_05] It will be the central preoccupation of my art I need to like work through what it meant to me

[00:51:33] [SPEAKER_02] It will be the vibe guide of everything I do Basically I would say like through Goodfellas Right Like Last Temptation is the interruption But he's like I need to cinematically say goodbye to this thing Yeah it really culminates with the helicopters above Henry Hill Right and then it's like goodbye to cocaine It's like no I'm I think I'm good

[00:51:49] [SPEAKER_06] I think Casino's got some coke in its blood Yeah

[00:51:52] [SPEAKER_02] I would not say Casino is like a movie where you know cocaine is a main character in the same way For Sharon Stone I think for Sharon Stone

[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_06] I think you're gonna remember when you rewatch Casino Some other movies he was linked to around him Dick Tracy Right We'll talk about this whenever we do Warren Beatty But he was a contender to direct with Warren starring I believe Right right right Winter's Tale Which has eventually turned into one of the oddest movies ever he made But at the time The Akeem of Oldsmen Yes Yeah At the time is like a hot new book He's attached to that But Mark Halperin I believe is the novelist

[00:52:30] [SPEAKER_06] A biopic of Gershwin written by Paul Schrader Which has never come to pass And an adaptation Can you imagine I mean can you imagine An adaptation of the Elmore Leonard novel La Brava That Dustin Hoffman wanted to make I've never read La Brava

[00:52:53] [SPEAKER_05] I think that's one of the Detroit ones So I think that's a Detroit crime one No

[00:52:59] [SPEAKER_06] No it's like Joe La Brava former secret service agent

[00:53:04] [SPEAKER_05] Oh is he in Florida taking pictures He gets involved with a former movie star

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_06] Yeah that's Florida Hoffman you know who's famously like the most gigantic pain in the ass in the world Is trying to make it into a movie for years It ends up at canon Yeah It never happens

[00:53:21] [SPEAKER_02] Life's too short to work with Dustin Hoffman was a oft repeated phrase in Hollywood for decades

[00:53:26] [SPEAKER_06] Now color money Michael Ovitz Guys heard of him Speaking of guys with normal energy Super agent who founded CAA One of his biggest clients is Paul Newman And He's you know Trying to win his guy an Oscar Paul Newman watches Raging Bull on I guess if it's his recommendation and says like that's one of the best things I've ever seen And if it's just like why don't you fucking make a movie with Marty like

[00:53:53] [SPEAKER_02] Let's call out another connection Jake LaMotta is in the hustler as a bartender Oh shit sure the real Jake LaMotta Right Yeah So that's a one of the reasons that Paul Newman is leaning in and watching that movie Is like you know Oh I'm interested I knew Jake LaMotta Yeah I interface with this fucking guy And he's seeing like man Scorsese got him right and is connecting those dots There's also you know Ovitz was Scorsese's neighbor for a long time I think he lived underneath him

[00:54:21] [SPEAKER_06] He and he shared an office with Harry Offland who was Scorsese's agent back in the 70s Yeah So he's always been into him

[00:54:30] [SPEAKER_05] But like do you think Ovitz lived near Scorsese during Scorsese and Robbie Robertson staying up all night watching horror movies when they're editing

[00:54:38] [SPEAKER_06] Yeah and Ovitz just had like a big funnel and he would suck the coke fumes from the next door window

[00:54:43] [SPEAKER_02] I don't know if it's in the dossier here but it sounds like Ovitz when he was like young and getting started Yeah right Like 70s Ovitz Was living adjacent to Scorsese in that time and that Scorsese would like loan him movies show him movies bring him upstairs to show him a VHS That there was a little bit of cinematic education

[00:55:01] [SPEAKER_06] This is an example of what Ovitz was sort of smart about It's like Newman's like I'd like to work with Marty sure And Ovitz is like write him a letter it's gonna mean a lot And Paul Newman's like what? And he's like write just trust me write him a letter saying you admire him He admires you Paul Newman's like he does And he's like yeah sure like you know like convinces him to do this Drops the letter personally to Marty like gives him a person And he says like Scorsese like opens the letter and like it lights up Even though it is a it is addressed to Michael Scorsese

[00:55:34] [SPEAKER_06] But he forgives that Yeah He's still charmed And you know like You know I my guess is it's sort of like Ovitz is like I know he's an artiste He's probably not gonna want to do like a commercial thing So I'm gonna try and like nudge him towards something commercial Can I do a minute or two on Ovitz quickly? Because I do We've talked about him before

[00:55:53] [SPEAKER_02] But I think this movie is a good This is a big Ovitz project Right So for people don't know Michael Ovitz was one of the founders of CAA right And he basically becomes the archetype of the modern agent And part of that is sort of being an agent who also functions a little bit more like a manager And I think the genius of what he did and you know normal guy in our parlance But to give credit to what he did successfully And it had certain negative entail effects on the industry

[00:56:21] [SPEAKER_02] It was sort of like he recognized a gulf in the collapse of the studio system that used to be invested in people's careers It would have a director or an actor under contract and they would be managing them long term Not just thinking about how do I get him a gig But like what's the arc we're building here? What's the next era we want to go into? That falls apart Artists get their own independence But suddenly it's like if you're Warren Beatty and you've got really good taste and you're smart

[00:56:49] [SPEAKER_02] And you're driving everything and you have that level of power You're fine You just need an agent to fucking make your contracts Close your deals But some people don't have the same kind of vision And Ovitz is like this is what we're going to build our business on Is that we are thinking long term It is a career business It's not a gig to gig business And the other part of it is the beginning of like super packaging Right? And that's what this movie is a great example of Of just like oh fuck

[00:57:17] [SPEAKER_02] If I can put like three insane elements together on paper And then go to the studios and say like fuck you You have five minutes to decide This is a bidding war It starts to change Hollywood

[00:57:28] [SPEAKER_04] Fuck you it's about pool nobody's happy Right Five minutes to decide

[00:57:32] [SPEAKER_02] His famous example of this is that he puts together like Ghostbusters And goes to all of the studios And is like like it's on everyone's table You know like start bidding Here's everything It's like the two funniest men in America from the director of Stripes And the other guy from Stripes is co-writing it and he's in it And we're going to have special effects And Slimer Right Slimer support Because Slimer is tough

[00:57:58] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah Slimer is tough to get

[00:58:00] [SPEAKER_02] Slimer is offer only He was a CAA client Slimer also a huge coke problem It's funny It's funny that you said that That's not a huge slime problem There was this Ovid stance of him knowing that Scorsese was such an artistically driven man To drop my one story I have of working on vinyl where I had this incredible extended conversation with Scorsese that I sort of lucked into

[00:58:23] [SPEAKER_02] Where he was talking fairly vulnerably about the criticism of him becoming a paycheck guy That he was like still very sensitive about the criticisms of his later period and the idea that he doesn't care does things for money now And he was like I very earnestly like every movie I've made I deeply care about And like some of them I made more money on and some of them are more passionate to me and some things I developed in this and that

[00:58:51] [SPEAKER_02] But I like never made a movie just for money And you know he said to me I remember Mike Ovitz coming up to me at a party I'm trying to think what the timeline of this would have been It must have been pre after hours Right? It well it's post Raging Bull but I don't know Sometime in this era Raging Bull King of comedy Mike Ovitz comes up to him at a

[00:59:18] [SPEAKER_02] Post screening party or post premiere party for one of his movies And says you know Marty there is a way to make money doing this I mean look we're gonna get there That was exactly a line he used to lure him into color of money And there was sort of the dance of him being like I'm not gonna do something just for money and he's like But there's a way to do both There is a way to make a movie the way you want to with like incredible assets like Paul Newman And also get paid

[00:59:46] [SPEAKER_02] Not lose your house trying to get it made And have it be commercially successful Which will ultimately speaking to this long-term career vision Help you get shit like Last Temptation or Gangs of New York made They're not gonna give you that if you keep making shit like King of comedy

[01:00:02] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah and I'm sure also I mean It appeals to two sides of his sensibility He's at once like I have archived a neo-realist Serbian movie that eight people have seen And he's also like Humphrey Bogart Love him Like let's make let's like movie stars are awesome and Hollywood is great

[01:00:17] [SPEAKER_02] That's what's the best about him Yeah And so many of the filmmakers he grew up loving had careers like that David Yes

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[01:03:34] [SPEAKER_06] Featuring a haunting original score by Heavis publishes the color of money The Hustler He dies of lung cancer Just a year later Paul Newman Is into it because He feels differently about Fast Eddie basically than any other part he's played and he's like, and he's not complete at the end of The Hustler. It's not like Butch Cassidy or whatever. Like, I often wondered about what he would be doing now. Like, it's not like a thing where like his story just, because obviously the Hustler ends with him basically

[01:04:04] [SPEAKER_06] like in a hole.

[01:04:06] [SPEAKER_02] I don't know if this is controversial to say, but upon rewatching it, I think this is the best of the young Newman performances. I know he's incredible in Butch Cassidy and Cool Hand Luke and whatever, but like, it does feel like The Hustler gets something very unique. Yeah, my favorite is Hudd. It's Hudd.

[01:04:22] [SPEAKER_05] To me, it's like 100% Hudd. That's like the best screen performance of all time.

[01:04:27] [SPEAKER_06] He's pretty fucking

[01:04:28] [SPEAKER_02] astonishing in Hustler. Yeah. No, he's awesome in Hudd. He's so awesome. Yes.

[01:04:33] [SPEAKER_05] And it's great because he's so hot and he's so charming and he plays such assholes in these movies. He sure does. You know, it's like he actually, like whatever he saw when he looked in the mirror, he's so divorced from what everybody sees when they look on screen. It's fascinating

[01:04:51] [SPEAKER_02] because it does feel like there are, there are actors like him who want to play unlikable because they feel burdened by their charisma, you know, or the accessibility they have to people's interests.

[01:05:06] [SPEAKER_06] Right, ugly me up

[01:05:07] [SPEAKER_02] or make me scary. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it feels performative and it feels hollow or it feels kind of like self-punishing. A little try hard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And with him, it feels like a genuine, not like a genuine reflection of a self-hatred, but there is a very honest probing into the darkest sides of the psyche that don't feel stunty.

[01:05:30] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And in some ways, maybe a perfect foil or a perfect partner for Scorsese because they're, Newman's like, look, like I flashed the baby blues and everybody comes to the movie, but then they get confronted with like the dregs of the human condition. And Scorsese's like, I make camera move fast, but we're gonna, we're gonna actually get in. Yeah. To some pretty dark stuff here. So it's like,

[01:05:56] [SPEAKER_02] it's the perfect medicine and sugar, right? Yeah, that's the other thing that like Newman's seeing in Raging Bull of like, man, this guy's really good at dissecting what makes men terrible. He really gets it. He's not shying away from it.

[01:06:10] [SPEAKER_06] Okay, so the novel, right? He's into it. Tevis is given a shot at writing a screenplay. He writes a draft. Another writer does another draft. No name for that one. I've never read any,

[01:06:21] [SPEAKER_05] I didn't, I didn't read Color of Money, the novel, the Tevis novel. I don't think, I don't know if the screenplay is around anywhere, but the reporting on the screenplay is like, it's basically a two-hander with Fats and Eddie. Right. Because it's more going by the book.

[01:06:38] [SPEAKER_02] It's like Rocky II.

[01:06:40] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah. It's just like, it's like we're old now and it's Florida, but like we're doing cable TV, like exhibitions, but then we're also hustling each other. It's more like Creed II.

[01:06:54] [SPEAKER_06] Newman, still remember Scorsese, loved Raging Bull. Scorsese has just done, just finished on After Hours and Paul calls him and is like, do you want to do a sequel to The Hustler? Obviously, like Scorsese is like, my taste is not in sequels, but I do love Paul Newman. Like, I mean, how do you, it's like the president calling you being like, I need you to be the secretary of state or whatever. Also, it's fucking Paul Newman.

[01:07:20] [SPEAKER_02] this held the record for a long time of the biggest gap between sequel and original film. As you said, there was the Return to Oz thing that doesn't really count. And now we get more and more like your Tron legacies and your Top Gun Mavericks where it's just casually fucking, right, 37, 40 years later, whatever the fuck it is. You know, Blade Runner, obviously the Star Wars sequels. At this time, I think that already sounded novel and different. It's novel. It's novel for sure. But there's, but also back then

[01:07:49] [SPEAKER_02] sequels are so strided. Right. Godfather 2 is the only one that basically is taken seriously.

[01:07:57] [SPEAKER_06] Yeah. So Newman sits down with him and he's like, Eddie reminds me of, you know, characters you've dealt with. I feel like we should hear more from him. I've got a script. Scorsese is intrigued. He does not like the script because it is a literal sequel. Like, you know, basically like it even had like it was supposed to start with like stuff from The Hustler.

[01:08:18] [SPEAKER_05] I think it starts with like a 10 or 12 minute like or 12 page like this is from The Hustler. Yeah. Right.

[01:08:25] [SPEAKER_06] Yeah. And so, you know, they let the writer who wrote this script, the unnamed writer, one more draft that still doesn't, they don't like it. He doesn't really like the novel either. So then he's basically like, can we just drop the novel? We'll keep the title, but otherwise, can we just like

[01:08:43] [SPEAKER_02] do something else? This is the power of the package is you don't go like, well, sorry, you don't like the script. Thanks for considering this film. Let's find a new director. You go, no, the selling point here is Scorsese makes the Hustler sequel. Yes. So figure out the version he wants to make.

[01:08:58] [SPEAKER_06] So Richard Price, who had written these books like The Wanderers and Blood Brothers and so, you know, like Price is sort of like sort of early-ish in his career, but he's like a celebrated guy. Yeah,

[01:09:07] [SPEAKER_05] I think he's written like three or four books and then this marks his departure from novels to do screenplays until he comes back to write Clockers.

[01:09:14] [SPEAKER_06] Which, Clockers is so good. Lush Life is like the novel he wrote. One of my favorite novels. That's such a good book. Yeah. And he worked on The Wire later in life and all that. You know, he became such a luminary. He'd never written a screenplay that had been produced. He'd done some, you know, he'd done some stuff in Hollywood. He was like a little hung up on a novel, I guess. And obviously, you make a lot more money writing movies than you do writing novels that may or may not get published.

[01:09:39] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. I mean, I re-watched Martin Fink again recently because it was playing at the Paris with Totoro doing a Q&A. And I, you know, it just made me think about like, right, that's how Hollywood used to run is they would just go to all great novelists and playwrights and go like, look, you're sitting in an office, you're going to get paid a lot more and then you can go back and write your little things. And now it feels like they are the exceptions to the rule. There are the couple you can call out where you're like, that guy kind of successfully made the leap.

[01:10:09] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah. Who's like the most recent person? I mean, Gillian Flynn kind of did that. Yeah. That's a good example for sure.

[01:10:19] [SPEAKER_02] It's sort of forgotten. Yeah.

[01:10:20] [SPEAKER_06] Like he did like two novels and was like, forget it. Yeah. So Newman, Scorsese and Price sit down in Malibu. This is how Price describes it. Me and Marty, the two New York guys were on the beach. Marty's sitting there with his jacket and his nasal spray. I'm smoking a cigarette hunched over coughing. Newman comes out all tanned up. Mr. Sienzki eating a grapefruit. We were two clowns with the Hollywood platinum. And then we just hammered out a plot line like, you know, in one day, essentially. Like what's fucking Eddie doing now?

[01:10:50] [SPEAKER_06] The novel, he like hooks up with a professor. It's like a romance.

[01:10:54] [SPEAKER_05] It's weird. Like they open an antique store. Right.

[01:10:58] [SPEAKER_04] Seriously.

[01:10:58] [SPEAKER_05] And the antique store gets burned down. Sorry for spoiling this novel. Yeah.

[01:11:02] [SPEAKER_06] So like, so Scorsese's basically like, it's not like he's just been doing nothing. He's just gotten like tougher and meaner to survive or whatever. Like that's kind of, you know, but he needs to sort of reeducate himself to play again. Like that's, that's, you know, the age of 52. He's, you know, blah, blah, blah. And first time I met Paul Newman, I asked him why this guy would start playing pool again in his 50s. I said to Paul, why do you race if you don't win every time? Paul Newman loves

[01:11:32] [SPEAKER_06] a fucking race car, right? And Newman just sort of looks at him and goes like, that's the picture. And like, that's fucking great stuff. You know? Because I mean, that is like, where it's like, Paul, you're the hottest man alive. Everybody loves your lemonade. Right. Why do you also go to like Le Mans and drive a car for a day? Like,

[01:11:57] [SPEAKER_02] are you not satisfied? And he's like, I don't know, there's something in me. Got a happy marriage. You basically have an uninterrupted decades long, like minted movie star streak. You still keep on getting in these crazy cars. Right.

[01:12:10] [SPEAKER_06] Yeah. The first draft comes in too dark. Newman's like, I think this is too, you have made him a nightmare piece of shit. it's like,

[01:12:19] [SPEAKER_05] Eddie Felsen dragged up to Golgotha. Wait a second.

[01:12:25] [SPEAKER_06] So, they're like, look, we're making a star vehicle. The way Scorsese puts it, like, we're making a suit for the man, you know? It's got to come out of Paul Newman. Like, you can't just like, write like, all this like, piece of shit dialogue. Like, you have to imagine, like, Paul Newman will be saying this. Like, there needs to be some class. Yeah. And so, you know, they calibrate it and all that. And, it's interesting that like, Cruise is not mentioned for a while.

[01:12:49] [SPEAKER_05] This is like, the most fascinating thing about reading about the making of this movie is this guy's in Top Gun. The same, like, it comes out what,

[01:12:57] [SPEAKER_06] four or five months earlier,

[01:12:58] [SPEAKER_05] basically. So, they hit the lottery in that sense. Right. But, he is not in any way doing Tom Cruise things where he's like, it's important that this happens to my character. And it's important, like, that's all. which is all you hear about. This might be the last movie

[01:13:10] [SPEAKER_06] where that happened. And it's funny because like, his rep is like, after this is like, oh, he wants to work with Duvall. All these big, right, he wants to work with big, and you figure he's the one who's like,

[01:13:21] Paul,

[01:13:22] [SPEAKER_06] let's get Marty. You know, or whatever. But like, he's not. He comes in later. Obviously,

[01:13:27] [SPEAKER_02] you know, Risky Business was big and predated this, but it is fascinating that I think of this movie and his arc as being like, this is him grabbing the torch and being like, I'm on the run now. Here we go. I'm racing towards the fucking Olympics. And this felt like the last time he was just like, hired to do something.

[01:13:50] [SPEAKER_05] I watched, he was on Graham Norton during the pandemic, because I watched the clip and they were all sitting very far apart. And so, he told this story about doing what sounds like the aftermath of the Werewolves of London scene where he's outside of the car and he's freezing, the coat anecdote. And the way he tells it, it's not like, and then of course, Paul and I became best friends after that. I mean, I know that they were close, but it sounds like Newman's like, ah, kid, you know, like, hey, but it's just like,

[01:14:20] [SPEAKER_05] you're the supporting actor in this movie.

[01:14:22] [SPEAKER_02] Tom Cruise, the most controlled man in the world, has 10 anecdotes he will share. There are 10 personal things he will say, right? And one of them, which I feel like he only started sharing in the last 10 years, because I've seen him do in a couple other places. I know he did it on the fucking Nerdist podcast, but the anecdote is that they're filming this thing outside and they call cut and immediately, Paul Newman has like a PA come over and put a really warm coat on him.

[01:14:45] [SPEAKER_05] And he has like an electric heater. Yeah.

[01:14:46] [SPEAKER_02] Right. And Tom Cruise is like rubbing his arms and like freezing. And Paul Newman says something like, 54 pictures, kid. Basically implying like, I've learned how to make movies. I know what I need. And that Tom Cruise looks at it as this moment of like, that's what I'm working towards. Not just the quality of the movies and the consistency of the run, but to understand how to do this as a job, you know, and know every angle of what I need to be on top of. Yeah, because he does his

[01:15:17] [SPEAKER_05] wardrobe fitting in the summer. So he's like, it'll be cool if I'm wearing a leather jacket and a t-shirt and it's like, they're shooting in Chicago in January. It's going to be so cold.

[01:15:25] [SPEAKER_02] The subtext of the story is that Paul Newman has the level of experience where he can do the math on every one of these things. He's not just thinking creatively. He's also going like, but wait, when is this scene going to film? And that's an exterior and this and that. And I feel like,

[01:15:39] [SPEAKER_05] Richard, I think it would be good

[01:15:40] [SPEAKER_04] if I was inside the Cadillac for that night scene.

[01:15:44] [SPEAKER_02] Clonologically, that feels like the last story he shares in which there is anything aspirational in the Tom Cruise persona. When he talks about anything he worked on after that, it is just like, I sat at the table and I said, this is what we need to do. Right? He tells the stories that are like, I was a little boy and I would repeat movie dialogue while staring at the ceiling while my family life was depressing. And then there's, I look at Paul Newman and I go, this is the guy I want to be. And after that, he is self-actualized. It is fascinating

[01:16:12] [SPEAKER_02] that I was saying to you, he must have shot this before Top Gun because he still looks kind of funky in this, but he shoots Top Gun first, then shoots this, and then has to go back and do reshoots for Top Gun. There's the scene where he's coming out of the shower in Top Gun and that's because they had to wet his hair because he had grown it out. Yeah. He's like kind of wavy. Yeah. Right.

[01:16:34] [SPEAKER_06] Yeah. And they shoot the love scene in like Total Shadow for the same reason. There's something like that.

[01:16:39] [SPEAKER_02] But it's like, he doesn't seem to know what Top Gun's about to do for him.

[01:16:43] [SPEAKER_06] No, none of them do. The way Scorsese puts it is like, we're getting a little bit of money because of risky business. Like, he's not an unfamous person.

[01:16:49] [SPEAKER_02] This casting is closer to hiring Miles Teller for Top Gun because you're like,

[01:16:53] [SPEAKER_06] he was good in Whiplash.

[01:16:54] [SPEAKER_02] Right. Not like this is clearly

[01:16:57] [SPEAKER_06] the guy. Fox, they get crews aboard. Fox turns it down. Columbia turns it down. This is kind of crazy given the package grab it. Put it on, you know, it's going to be a touchstone film. They've just taken over there after leaving Paramount. But they make Newman's salary insurance against Scorsese going over budget. So like, Scorsese has such a reputation post New York, New York and such that they're like, even with all this, you know,

[01:17:24] [SPEAKER_02] even with after hours being cheap.

[01:17:26] [SPEAKER_06] Right. Yeah. So he's got the big stars. It's his first time, he says, working with a movie star. Like, it's not like De Niro where like, it's his friend. Right. It's different when it's a movie star you helped forge who's like your brother. The way he puts it is like, right, like I'm looking at a face that I've been looking at since I was 12. There's a thousand movies on his face. Newman loves Scorsese. Says he's got an incredible eye. He's on you like a hawk. You can't do like your mannerisms around him. You know what I mean?

[01:17:56] [SPEAKER_06] Like he's like, he's immediately like, don't do that, you know, like or whatever. And Newman's like, right, can't be lazy or what I can't like do whatever the usual shit is.

[01:18:05] [SPEAKER_02] I also saw him say the best direction Scorsese gave him was don't try to be funny. Right, sure.

[01:18:12] [SPEAKER_06] Yeah.

[01:18:12] [SPEAKER_02] As an overall. And he was just like, that's like really smart, mature direction.

[01:18:17] [SPEAKER_06] Another, right, Cruise Connection, you know, Michael Chapman, who is Scorsese's cinematographer for like Raging Bull and stuff, directed all the right moves. So that was another reason Scorsese had his eye on Cruise. Yeah. Obviously, everyone does their own pool playing. You know, because, you know, they got to do it. And obviously, Cruise gets so into it.

[01:18:39] [SPEAKER_02] I was going to say, it is part of the Cruise mythology is I feel like this is the first time you hear about him going turbo on crap. The jump ball shot

[01:18:46] [SPEAKER_06] is the one that an expert does.

[01:18:48] [SPEAKER_05] Because that's the one that he was like, I'm sure you could make this.

[01:18:50] [SPEAKER_06] It'll take days. But it'll be like nine days

[01:18:53] [SPEAKER_05] to get one shot.

[01:18:54] [SPEAKER_02] But also feels like that's the thing he regrets for the rest of his career.

[01:18:57] [SPEAKER_06] I couldn't get that. I couldn't tell it. I could have figured it out.

[01:18:59] [SPEAKER_02] I had more in me.

[01:19:00] [SPEAKER_00] I could have done it.

[01:19:03] [SPEAKER_06] You know, Marty's parents are with him. I don't really... Do Marty's parents just kind of travel around with him? They shot this movie in Chicago. Yeah. But I guess they're just there. Yeah. Cruise like has dinner with them every night. You know, he really loves Marty. Yeah. I mean, that's just what he's like. Sauce. Sauce is good. And they rehearse the whole thing. Like Newman's very into rehearsals. They block all the scenes out. They do like tons and tons of rehearsals,

[01:19:33] [SPEAKER_06] basically like word for word. So they're incredibly prepared. And so they shot for like 10 weeks and they did it like, you know, no problem. They didn't go over budget or time.

[01:19:44] [SPEAKER_02] It was under. It was under on both.

[01:19:46] [SPEAKER_06] And it's the only... It came in at 13 million under 14.5 budget.

[01:19:49] [SPEAKER_02] It's the only time he did that in his career and it felt like he needed to do that to prove a point.

[01:19:55] [SPEAKER_06] They wanted to shoot in New York, but all the kind of classic, interesting pool halls were kind of gone. Toronto, you know, a cheap city, obviously, but like way too clean is basically how they put it. And so they end up in Chicago. They use St. Paul's billiards. Chris's billiards.

[01:20:14] [SPEAKER_01] Chris's billiards. Chris's billiards.

[01:20:15] [SPEAKER_06] Chicago's finest. The North Center Bowl. This famous old bar, Fitzgerald's, which I feel like is like still kind of a classic place that they turned that into a pool room. There's so many. I mean, there's that place. What's it? That storefront that's like Lincoln. You know, like that's still there. They, and they, they do go to Atlantic City for one day to shoot the big tournament with all the, you know, the stables together.

[01:20:42] [SPEAKER_05] Did they shoot any of this tournament stuff on stages or was that all?

[01:20:45] [SPEAKER_06] They staged most of it in Chicago's Navy Pier. Okay. Like, but they did some, you know, kind of like establishing.

[01:20:50] [SPEAKER_05] There's a strange relationship because this movie is kind of a road movie. Yeah. Because they're shooting it all in Chicago. You're kind of like, are they traveling? Are you traveling from the North side of Chicago to the South side of Chicago? But I always just in my mind imagine it being like Cleveland, Detroit, you know, Chicago, one more stop Atlantic City, like Philly Atlantic City or something like that.

[01:21:13] [SPEAKER_06] This is the second Ballhouse movie. Ballhouse shot after hours. JJ editorializing here, our researcher says, best, best DP that Scorsese ever worked with. I think that's probably true. Yeah. But also JJ, you're fired. We don't pay you for your opinions. But, you know, there's a lot of stuff here about, you know, the kind of bounce lights he used. I'm not going to go into all of this. Come on now.

[01:21:34] [SPEAKER_05] What do they call the cameras that can go right behind a cue ball or a pool ball?

[01:21:39] [SPEAKER_06] I mean, I don't know, but I love all that. Lipstick cameras. Oh, yeah. Lipstick cameras. Great name. There you go. They move the camera a lot. Like Ballhouse is like, I think out of every, like seven out of every ten shots, the camera's moving. Like it's a tracking shot or a moving shot or something. Like Marty loves to move the camera. I love to move the camera.

[01:21:57] [SPEAKER_02] Marty Scorsese likes to move the camera.

[01:21:59] [SPEAKER_06] And you're playing pool, which is just, it is a game where you just think about people just kind of like rotating around the table constantly. Right? You know what I mean? Like there is a movement to it.

[01:22:09] [SPEAKER_05] He's doing like all the Spielberg, uh, like coverage with camera movement. So it'll be like push in Vince, pan Moselle, back to Vince, tilt down to the pool cue, tilt up to Moselle. You know what I mean? And it's like, oh, that's like seven shots,

[01:22:27] [SPEAKER_02] but you just did it with movement. Which I think that's part of the under schedule, under budget thing, right? That's always been a famous Spielberg thing that he's so forged in the failure of 1941 that he adopts that style for Raiders of just like, I'm going to figure out on the day what's the quickest, cleanest, smartest way to do this. Um, and then he holds himself to that standard for the rest of his career. Scorsese obviously does not,

[01:22:57] [SPEAKER_02] but it does feel like he strategically knows I got to figure out a way to compress this, to, to make everyone trust me again. But those morphing kind of master shots are just exquisite. It also, we've talked about, maybe it has been since Ali, but how there's such a disproportionate amount of great boxing movies to other sports. It's such a cinematic sport. Part of it is that it's so contained

[01:23:25] [SPEAKER_02] and there's so few things you have to track and it's in such a manageable visual space. A thing, I'm sure we've talked about extensively on our Raging Bull episode. But Billiards is like an even tinier version of that. You know, it's basically a widescreen frame and you're just like, it's bright colors. It's crazy that actually The Hustler works as well as it does in black and white.

[01:23:48] [SPEAKER_05] It's such a strange sports movie, this one, because first of all, I think I take it for granted that, you know, people would unnecessarily grasp at any given moment where they are in terms of the the scale, the scales of who's winning and who's losing in a match. Because for one thing, some of the times they're intentionally losing. Sometimes they're winning to set up the fact that they might lose. It's rotation pool, so it's like sometimes they're kicking ass, but then a guy is like, it's my turn. You know,

[01:24:19] [SPEAKER_05] like I get to come in. Boxing is so simple. It's like, you can have never seen boxing before and be like, I get it. They punch each other until one guy falls down. Right. And it's like pool and the way he shoots pool, it's like there are often times where I'm like, I wonder if this is the fifth rack. Yeah. Is it the ninth rack? Like how, like how, it's so interesting that he can pull it off without ever being like, I have to stop and explain everything that's happening here.

[01:24:43] [SPEAKER_02] It's very reliant on the actress performances in that way because you need to look to them as a guide of them playing what's the status of the game right now and are they working someone or not? But it also means that basically you just need to depict trick shots. You just need to show us things that look impressive or look unimpressive in a basic binary way. And then it's helpful that like, you can do these fucking crazy camera moves, but actually you're just moving the camera two feet because you're tracking a very small ball

[01:25:12] [SPEAKER_02] in a very contained space. And a shiny ball moving on felt is really cool. It's really fucking cool.

[01:25:17] [SPEAKER_03] And aren't the rules of nine ball pretty straightforward? They are. I think there's something to that versus it being eight ball. Yeah. Where it's just like, it's very simple. If you get on a run and then you're able to be the one to get the nine ball and you win. Like, it's just, yeah. I think eight ball is also pretty simple.

[01:25:35] [SPEAKER_02] Eight ball is just solid stripes. I like to play one ball. That feels like for me the cleanest of track of just take one ball, even leave the cue to the side. And then you just pick it up with your hand and you drop it into the pocket. Game over.

[01:25:47] [SPEAKER_03] But they say in the movie that nine ball is more action based. Yeah, it's for TV.

[01:25:51] [SPEAKER_05] It's like Texas Hold'em. It's like the thing you created to make it feel more like a real sport. Not that it's not a real sport. Well, that's arguable.

[01:26:01] [SPEAKER_06] But yeah. I mean, I've watched, like I said, I've watched televised snooker. I've never really seen televised pool. Like, I'm not really aware of like...

[01:26:08] [SPEAKER_05] You clearly are not watching ESPN2 late enough into the night.

[01:26:11] [SPEAKER_06] Yeah.

[01:26:12] [SPEAKER_05] 2 a.m.

[01:26:13] [SPEAKER_06] In the 90s. Yeah. I feel like they were built on that, right? Yeah. Like, I don't know what... What's the like state of professional pool playing these days?

[01:26:22] [SPEAKER_05] I don't know, actually. Like, there was a... I'm not being funny. Like, there was a run there where there would be tournaments... Back when ESPN had less stuff. And when they were just like, it's bowling and pool after SportsCenter. Like, that's what we got. But, I don't remember the last time I was like, this is the most famous pool player.

[01:26:40] [SPEAKER_06] I was about to say, like, right, who's the best pool player? Whereas, again, I can tell... Ronnie O'Sullivan, baby. Like, Stephen Hendry. I can name, like, the great snooker players of my childhood. But I don't know who's good at pool. Like, once in a while, you'll see a bowling clip, which is always fun. Like, you know, some guy being like, that's why I'm the goat! And you're like, I guess that guy's the goat! And those guys now

[01:27:03] [SPEAKER_05] all wear, like, Thanos glums to bowl? Like, wait, isn't that just like a cybernetic arm? Is that fair? Is that allowed? Yeah.

[01:27:12] [SPEAKER_06] Obviously, there's like, Britain has darts, which is the funniest televised sport because everyone is morbidly obese. And it's in a giant bar where every, like, the whole crowd is just hammered. That honestly,

[01:27:25] [SPEAKER_05] though, is like, maybe the greatest televised. It's so good. It's watching guys do walk-up songs. And it's like, they're all named Ronnie, you know, and, and like, people are losing their minds.

[01:27:37] [SPEAKER_06] 180! There's the guy who yells. And the other, God, the crazy thing about snookers is it's always like, best of 33 games. Like, where you're like, what's the score? And he's like, he's up 11 to 7. And I'm like, and what does he need? They're like, I don't know, 18. Like, it's like, it's such a, I don't understand. Who's going to see it in person? You go to Sheffield, it's called the Crucible, the place where they, and it's, it's crazy. There's a packed crowd watching it.

[01:28:03] [SPEAKER_04] It can't be a real country. No, no.

[01:28:05] [SPEAKER_02] I was going to say, also, why does it feel like so many British sports are like, durational to prove a point? Like, people complain about American baseball. But like, that's what, look, you know what, you know what,

[01:28:15] [SPEAKER_06] we have enough listeners. Someone explain this because I don't know. The answer is probably like, oh, what do you mean? Like, a snooker game is 20 minutes. Like, it has to be that. I have no idea. Like, I don't know. All I know is I used to watch when I was a kid, the game show, The Big Break, hosted by Jim Davidson, who later became one of Britain's more prominent pro-Brexit celebrities. Back in the day, a hilarious light entertainer that was like a snooker game show. That's how popular snooker was in Britain. Anyway.

[01:28:43] [SPEAKER_03] Okay, I looked it up. Carlo Beato of the Philippines won the 2025 World Pool Association Nine Ball Championship. He, he kind of looks like a badass. I kind of like his vibe.

[01:28:55] [SPEAKER_05] Maybe if we ever get a color of money where Vince is, is the old man. Carlo couldn't be the Vince. Like, do you need to be in good shape to be good at pool? Uh, I mean, you have to stand a lot. You gotta bend over. You need a good back.

[01:29:11] [SPEAKER_06] You need a good back. Do you need like, you know, some shoulder strength? For sure, right. You don't have like professional video game players like get worse when they're older and you're like, really? And it's like, yeah, man, like being young, like your brain works better, you know, where it's like, even fucking this,

[01:29:27] [SPEAKER_02] like it is better when you're younger. I know we need to dig into the movie proper. I just need to pick up this thread that CR just dropped because I was thinking this while watching. Like, if Digger doesn't work, does Cruise go, it's time to make the Vince legacy sequel? Watching this, it felt really obvious to me that if he... have Newman. No, but he's the guy now.

[01:29:50] [SPEAKER_06] No, I understand. It would just be like, cool to have Newman have the one scene where he's like, kid, you got it. Who would be the young then casting? I don't know. It was Miles Teller in Maverick. Yeah. Who is it now? I don't know.

[01:30:03] [SPEAKER_02] I don't know who it is, but I just was like, of all the legacy secrets, he's talking about doing Days of Thunder 2,

[01:30:11] [SPEAKER_06] he's talking about doing Maverick. He really shouldn't do Days of Thunder 2. I agree. That is a huge mistake. Especially post-F1, there's nothing that needs to be said. There's no room for you here and you're too old. Yep.

[01:30:21] [SPEAKER_02] Is there another Cruise legacy sequel that makes sense? The other part of that is that Cruise does genuinely love erasing and he said that Paul Newman's the one who got him into it while filming this movie. Sounds like the kind of bullshit he'd say.

[01:30:32] [SPEAKER_05] Have you read the script for Rain Men yet? Let's get Hoffman back now. But it's just also like a bunch of guys. Yeah. Many. Many. Yeah.

[01:30:42] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, he's had a lot of kids. Yeah. They have to go collect all the Rain Men. It's just such an obvious thing where like the color of money Oscar feels like shorthand for a kind of Gold Watch performance, you know? It becomes the representation for even what True Grit is of like what's the obvious kind of elder statesman you are looking back on your legacy and sort of like your movie stardom. We gotta give it to this guy. Oscar win. Well,

[01:31:12] [SPEAKER_05] to your point about him obviously taking a supporting role and being like in some ways third chair on this movie compared to Newman and Scorsese. It's maybe not unique in his films but it is very clear that like Vince is almost the villain of the end of this movie in some ways and that the movie frames it

[01:31:37] [SPEAKER_02] as like this is the problem this is what we lost culturally. Yeah. Yes. Look at how unseemly these guys are.

[01:31:44] [SPEAKER_05] And then it's like for the first two thirds of the movies he's just like regarding Newman yeah he gets mad at him a couple times but for the most part he's just like Eddie you're the man like just show me the ways of the force you know? Like and it's it's so different from the way he now is so in touch with I want people to think this about me at this moment in the movie you know? and then they have to think this is gonna happen but they know I'm gonna prevail

[01:32:13] [SPEAKER_02] you know? Also the fact that Cruise keeps making baton pass movies where he refuses to pass the baton you know? Obviously there's the whole Renner thing with Mission Impossible but that's also what's fascinating about Maverick is that it's like no I'm not gonna die I'm gonna save Miles Teller the movie ends with me being like and I'm still fucking in it yeah Maverick you did it right? It's not about me elevating the other guy yeah it does feel like I don't know if they announce tomorrow like he's got

[01:32:43] [SPEAKER_02] Benny Safdie or Josh Josh Safdie I guess is the more exciting pick right? Working on a Vince movie right do people get interested if it's the right director if it's the right writer yeah sure

[01:32:57] [SPEAKER_06] I mean this is the one where you're like well I could buy him playing pool yeah like versus Days of Thunder where it's like get out of the car Tom like you know like come on Jesus Christ you know like I'm looking at his 80s it's funny it's like he's good in this movie right after this Cocktail is in 88 so he doesn't make a movie in 87

[01:33:17] [SPEAKER_02] yeah so Cocktail

[01:33:18] [SPEAKER_06] is his next film

[01:33:18] [SPEAKER_02] feels like what you're saying of the first time where he's like no I'm the best bartender right the arc of that movie is Guy stumbles into a thing immediately comes better in everyone else in the world his challenge is that no one will give him that credit basically and then a woman dies

[01:33:35] [SPEAKER_06] so Cocktail is apologies to Bill Simmons a terrible movie yeah a tremendous amount of fun it's a good fun it's a dog shit movie it's a stupid movie stupid stupid movie I love it but it's fun yeah but he you know he's got that in 88 he balances it with Rain Man where it's like once again I'm working with a big director I'm opposite a bigger actor he in my opinion he steals Rain Man out from Hoffman

[01:33:59] [SPEAKER_02] I feel like that's sort of become the majority opinion of that's that's the performance

[01:34:03] [SPEAKER_06] at the time obviously that's not the case

[01:34:06] [SPEAKER_02] didn't even get nominated how do people feel about Rain Man now

[01:34:08] [SPEAKER_05] we did it as rewatchable recently have you guys done it in a we've never done Levinson because he's one of those classic guys of like the latter half of his career yeah you'd be like watching the Bay which I kind of like but but you'd be like okay

[01:34:21] [SPEAKER_06] you'd be watching like Rock the Cash Bar yeah or whatever like I mean I don't know like the one where Ben Foster's a boxer

[01:34:28] [SPEAKER_02] right that's an HBO one maybe we could skip that

[01:34:30] [SPEAKER_06] it's just a it's a really

[01:34:31] [SPEAKER_05] weird movie yeah it's a very very watchable movie for sure but it's just like you're like this is about a car salesman who has a little bit of money trouble and then finds out he has a brother

[01:34:42] [SPEAKER_06] right the stakes of it are oddly low it's the thing about it is obviously you could never do a movie like that today the Hoffman performances would now be seen as insensitive or whatever it's an incredibly moving movie just like you know just the gut you know the way it works but I think most of that's Cruise also oh it's a good script but it's a good script

[01:35:02] [SPEAKER_02] it is crazy it's not a movie I've seen a lot I've seen like twice no it's crazy when you look at it and you're like everyone wanted to make that script there were so many versions of that movie with different A-list actors and different directors where you're like you know Spielberg almost makes it with Bill Murray in the Hoffman part like people were like tripping over themselves to get the chance to make this film and then it sweeps the Oscars and it's the highest grossing film of its year

[01:35:27] [SPEAKER_06] it sure was and so like I guess that's part of the Cruise touch at that point and then the next year he does Born on the Fourth of July which I feel like is the moment where it's like okay you're a certified great actor but then he follows it with like Days of Thunder Far and Away Few Good Men The Firm Interview with the Vampire Mission Impossible a lot of like very sort of sort of crowd forward movies like he doesn't make another really like I mean I guess Far and Away is trying to be a serious movie Far and Away is trying

[01:35:55] [SPEAKER_03] yeah and I think all those movies sorry

[01:35:57] [SPEAKER_06] I was just

[01:35:58] [SPEAKER_03] I got excited A Few Good Men like a sequel The Last Good Man A bunch of great people oh you're going more yeah

[01:36:08] [SPEAKER_06] well there's a lot of great people in the military these days that's the argument for the movie

[01:36:12] [SPEAKER_02] nothing excites me more than the sound of a

[01:36:16] look

[01:36:17] [SPEAKER_06] Nicholson's still alive he appears to be retired Guantanamo you know it's gone through a couple of iterations since the movie Demise Demise you know rebounded

[01:36:27] [SPEAKER_02] like you know I was going to say Sorkin legacy sequel are the scariest words currently plaguing the modern movie landscape he's up to no good but then I'm realizing that's that's another example of it's not Fincher doing the legacy sequel with an entirely different cast but it is Sorkin making his own legacy he'll beat Pete to the punch on that yeah oh right we were talking about that off mic we were saying how weird it is that he too is the same guy making a movie with new cast

[01:36:56] [SPEAKER_02] as the same characters recasting every role

[01:36:59] [SPEAKER_06] yeah a few good men obviously Rob Reiner recently died that is tragic that probably makes a few good men like a sequel even less likely also what would it be about also what are you what are we doing here also apparently I mean are there still lawyers who prosecute the military no no no the judge checks the truth social fee

[01:37:20] [SPEAKER_02] and sees what Trump has said and makes his decision like I mean by the time this episode comes out maybe the social reckoning trailer is out there almost definitely that movie is by all accounts like 90% courtroom it sounds like

[01:37:33] [SPEAKER_06] that's the the gist of it he's really good at that stuff he is you know or like he knows how to but that might be what if you do

[01:37:41] [SPEAKER_02] your few good men legacy sequel might be a few bad websites

[01:37:43] [SPEAKER_06] listen Tom Cruise is a Tom Cruise is a judge advocate general in a few good men he's a jack as we all know NCIS is based on Jag is a spinoff technically a spinoff of the TV show Jag we all know this the legacy sequel is them untangling the media rights of NCIS in a quarter oh that would be fun and it's just kind of like wait and this counts too like lol cool jay's testifying for some reason

[01:38:06] [SPEAKER_02] right you know just like digging into all of that because now there's are Carmen on NCIS so in this iteration

[01:38:22] [SPEAKER_05] is Chris O'Donnell gonna play the Kiefer Sutherland role of like vaguely like MAGA kind of like yes

[01:38:29] [SPEAKER_06] like somewhat coded right where you're like were you what were you doing uh no uh that's um let's talk about the color money let's talk about the color money oh my god

[01:38:38] [SPEAKER_02] it opens like many great films do with Martin Scorsese the director doing voiceover even though he's not a character in the film yeah just being like let me uh explain a thing to you

[01:38:49] [SPEAKER_05] uh the most grotesque and also the most beautiful image of a cigarette where you're like I gotta have that immediately I'm just also like look at that smoke and drink so badly look at that ash falling off of it that's what goes

[01:39:02] [SPEAKER_04] into your lungs this is the worst thing

[01:39:04] [SPEAKER_03] that we've ever done to ourselves as a former smoker this is triggering this made me want to drink and smoke so bad

[01:39:12] [SPEAKER_06] I've never smoked a cigarette in my life movies like this I'm just again I'm like I need to move into a pool hall I need to become addicted to brown liquid that makes my head swim I need to smoke two packs a day

[01:39:23] [SPEAKER_03] I was like this needs to be a mandatory road trip thing where like I like some old head and like a 20 something have to like be linked up and it doesn't even have to be like that I need to learn how to be a pool hustler but they have to learn something but I just want to like scum apprenticeship yeah

[01:39:41] [SPEAKER_05] scum apprentice would be a great franchise

[01:39:45] [SPEAKER_02] interesting interesting Ben has a franchise he's been trying to launch for children called scum friends yes okay look it's a big 10

[01:39:53] [SPEAKER_05] you know we could have g-rated stuff but we could also then scum apprentice is like we're going in and we're learning about hustling and cons and scum friends

[01:40:01] [SPEAKER_02] is sort of that's metaphorically what it's about that we should not cast judgment on the outcast of society but it's literally physical manifestations of like live in pipes

[01:40:12] [SPEAKER_06] it's like I'm a professional I knew Chris would get this I'm a professional pool player I say to a woman in a bar yeah and she's like oh so you're like a low life then below that is like I'm a professional pool player who often pretends to be bad and so I can score money off of people and maybe I'm going to get knifed outside where it's like wait you found a scummier version of professional pool player to be like were you not

[01:40:41] [SPEAKER_06] satisfied just being

[01:40:43] [SPEAKER_02] in pool halls all day here's another thing about how appealing the world of this movie is to us my friend Alejandro had a joke he used to tell about where he would refer to liquor as magic water that makes you sick and for how much this movie is about drinking and he's a liquor salesman and it makes it look fucking awesome

[01:41:00] [SPEAKER_06] he's like putting glasses into people's mouths being like taste that sweet sweet whiskey

[01:41:06] [SPEAKER_02] but it's also this isn't like mad men drinking this is like you see like oh right the magic water makes you sick this guy looks bad he's depressed I've been on the

[01:41:16] [SPEAKER_05] east coast for five days I haven't had a vegetable

[01:41:18] [SPEAKER_02] and it's not even like focused romantic like self punishing Bukowski drinking it's actually just like

[01:41:24] [SPEAKER_05] no but I can feel my body slowly dying just doing like three days of this and that's what he does every morning like there probably are no mornings because all he does is get up at 4pm you feel this movie in your tummy and meets with a woman who's inexplicably wearing a kimono and is like try this old McDonald's it's like I mean it's bonded

[01:41:45] [SPEAKER_02] it's magic water that makes you sick

[01:41:46] [SPEAKER_04] put it in your lips

[01:41:49] [SPEAKER_06] it's the the Mulaney joke of like did the bathroom is a Sterling Cooper sound like a haunted house I'm not watching this movie being like I wonder what kind of shits Paul Newman takes but like the second you start thinking about it you're like we're not watching six hours of the guy on the john with a paper like which is must be built they're eating

[01:42:10] [SPEAKER_05] at diners and white castle exactly and they and they smoke and drink all day yes yeah and he's the hottest any man has ever been

[01:42:18] [SPEAKER_06] but in that way same as Slapshot yeah he is he's correctly depicted as like as a like battered piece of shit and yet he's still the hottest thing you've ever seen

[01:42:28] [SPEAKER_00] I mean the verdict like this era

[01:42:30] [SPEAKER_06] well in the verdict you're like oh no like I mean and like he is so fucked up yeah and in the verdict he's also like I'm an ambulance check out my apartment which is also my office that movie at least in this one it's like you're like you're a pool player that's cool in the verdict you're like wow you suck there's like the first time you see the verdict you're like cool glasses you know like the first time you see the verdict sorry

[01:42:55] [SPEAKER_05] oh no when you first watch it you're just like boy are there gals out there like Charlotte Rampling who go for guys like this because that could open up a lot of windows for me and then you realize it's a scam but he's doing things right

[01:43:06] [SPEAKER_02] he's the hustler in that movie I think on the big pick legal draft I call that the greatest burnished wood movie of all time this one has a but this is in on the podium it's in there

[01:43:18] [SPEAKER_05] yeah I asked for and did not receive one of the most unique creations in furniture history which is the pool hall chair okay talk about this you wanted to podcast from oh yes yes yes you sent us a photo it's this yes the screen shot elevated wooden throne yeah that overlooks so that you get like a good angle on the action it's technically known as a spectator chair

[01:43:41] [SPEAKER_02] I was gonna say it almost looks like a lifeguard chair or like a fucking tennis referee or it's kind of like a director's chair in a weird kind of way

[01:43:48] [SPEAKER_05] and it also looks a little bit like a shoeshine chair but like the way that in that opening sequence when Vince is playing Julian Carmen's there we're meeting all the main characters he kind of just saddles up there and is like I'm gonna stretch my legs out and put my arm out over like the other side of the chair but I'm looking down on Carmen and I'm like where did you fucking find this stuff I mean I guess it's still this was made at a time when they just still had those places look like they did I think so they'd just been

[01:44:18] [SPEAKER_05] frozen in amber also man

[01:44:19] [SPEAKER_02] Newman just fucking knew how to strike a pose and he could do it in a way where it felt natural it wasn't like he was doing some overly expressive John Wayne thing but that guy could just fucking sit and hold the frame and just know like if I just lean like 10% of my weight over to this side the king he is retired

[01:44:41] [SPEAKER_06] he's a liquor salesman he lives in Chicago yeah but he still hangs out at pool halls all the time and stakes

[01:44:50] [SPEAKER_02] younger players he wants to watch

[01:44:52] [SPEAKER_06] yeah he likes to watch he's got a definitely not at all long-suffering girlfriend played by Helen Shaver no who becomes like one of TV's greatest directors yeah yes oh I didn't really

[01:45:07] [SPEAKER_02] yeah wow she has a huge directing crew insane like she directed like two episodes of the penguin like she's still to this day one of the most awarded TV directors yeah

[01:45:16] [SPEAKER_06] she's working hard

[01:45:17] [SPEAKER_02] but yes no tough break for her yeah dating him sure yes and he's the player he's staking is John Turturro who is calm cool collected on cocaine and getting boat raced by a guy

[01:45:34] [SPEAKER_06] who likes to play video games when the phone when the phone rang yeah John Turturro's house it's like hey we want you to play a little rat piece of shit he's playing a squiggle is what it's like

[01:45:49] [SPEAKER_02] cool he's like yeah you have a rock of coke in your nose he looks like fear from inside out so good in this he's great he's great he's always good in these movies like to live and die in LA for how early this is in his career it's insane how he's already shorthand casting yeah in a way that is so powerful the audience is just like boo John Turturro type

[01:46:15] [SPEAKER_04] find Tom Cruise immediately I think the first time I saw him was Miller's Crossing and I was like

[01:46:20] [SPEAKER_06] you fucking piece of shit it's just like this Miller's Crossing quiz show that kind of trifecta everyone just being like there's something I don't like about you

[01:46:29] [SPEAKER_02] I rewatched quiz show I guess after Redford died it does feel like a movie I watch once a year and every time I watch it I just don't understand how he didn't like win the Oscar that year let alone get nominated but because it's the metatextual one where it's just like even if you're the best we just kind of there's something about you I feel like he's he's settled into his own interesting Elder Statesman mode where he no longer has that energy

[01:46:59] [SPEAKER_06] like him in the Batman where it's like I can play like an icy mob boss with like you know shaded glasses and people are like yeah of course you are an Elder Statesman like you fit and he's like hot now too you're also like

[01:47:10] [SPEAKER_05] old Turturro's hot he's got a he directed a film that's coming out soon right like the only pickpocket New York or something

[01:47:17] [SPEAKER_02] no Noah Segan directed that oh he directed but Turturro's in it but I've heard Turturro's incredible on that like a friend of mine who saw that movie was like this is like the Turturro career lifetime achievement obviously

[01:47:29] [SPEAKER_06] he has directed many a great film such as The Jesus Rolls

[01:47:33] [SPEAKER_02] are you aware so I because I brought this up to someone else recently who was astonished by this news The Jesus Rolls which of course was the Jesus Centana side cool to Big Lebowski that he made without the participation of the Coen brothers

[01:47:48] [SPEAKER_05] but with their blessing the passive blessing

[01:47:50] [SPEAKER_02] yeah they were like

[01:47:51] [SPEAKER_05] okay

[01:47:52] [SPEAKER_02] if we don't have to show up you can do whatever you want that movie is a remake in addition to being a side cool to Big Lebowski it is him transposing that character onto a straight remake of Going Places the movie Hitmaker recently called out the Depardieu Bertrand Billiet yep 100% it is like it's a sex challenge road trip movie it is credited as like based on Going Places okay

[01:48:22] [SPEAKER_02] yep haven't seen it yet I want to remind everyone that the character of the Jesus in the Big Lebowski is a sexual predator yeah convicted child molester yes and John Turturro was like you know it'd be good make a whole movie out of that guy and have him horny on the road is it his redemption no it's like him and his friend like daring each other to do weird sex stuff just one of the weirdest things ever made people were like why aren't you guys covering that on Patreon I'm like I don't know I want to be able to sleep at night

[01:48:50] [SPEAKER_06] so he's staking Vincent Loria right no sorry no Vincent is Thomas Tom Cruise what's staking Julian right Vincent kicks his ass and what's the video game he's obsessed with Stalker

[01:49:03] [SPEAKER_05] is that is that a real video game it apparently influenced the the actual video game Doom but I to me it just looks like Spy Hunter or like Pole Position or some 80s you know car racing game

[01:49:15] [SPEAKER_02] and now where would you guys rank this in the the Tron franchise I think I like the original Tron more than this but this one's better than Ares War Legacy what was the video game in

[01:49:27] [SPEAKER_05] Last Starfighter was it just called Last Starfighter it's called Starfighter Starfighter yeah that was always pretty sick to me but yeah Stalker seems pretty yeah it's weird that he's like my my like motor skills are so elevated because of Stalker and I'm like

[01:49:40] [SPEAKER_02] that doesn't really that's not how it happens but I'm sure it's a Disney thing but I just genuinely love that there's a Tron cabinet in this and obviously the Tron cabinet was like real and was more successful than the movie and stayed in arcades for years but it does make it feel like this is a movie that takes place in the world of Tron that would be so incredible yeah

[01:49:57] [SPEAKER_06] uh so he you know Vincent uh he's he's got charisma he's got a hot girlfriend named Carmen played by Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio I don't know where she was in her career at this point like oh it's her second movie she's in Scarface yeah yeah okay so Scarface is her first she apparently is an extra in The King of Comedy but I doubt like Marty knew her from that no it must have been

[01:50:21] [SPEAKER_02] just from from Scarface

[01:50:22] [SPEAKER_06] uh she's I'm just gonna say it

[01:50:24] [SPEAKER_02] uh total smoke show she is she's so good in this movie she's she's an actress I like a lot uh generally but I feel like uh she is attractive in this she's activating things in me watching this that I don't usually feel from her performances she like she fucking rules in the abyss yeah

[01:50:43] [SPEAKER_05] when she comes back when he gives him the balabushka uh but then like Newman's like driving him crazy like go go be be really remote and then she comes back in packing her pack of cigarettes I was just like well just take my life like

[01:51:00] [SPEAKER_02] it's fascinating because it's like I was gonna say it's take my life um it's fascinating because it feels like he's having a love at first sight moment with them with just their dynamic witnessing the whole kind of operation of what's happening the energy around them the potential I think there's also like a not

[01:51:19] [SPEAKER_05] a not too hidden like there's a longing for sexual vitality uh because he's talking omelets and these guys are are are just like she's she's talking about like the loudness of his break you know and he's watching him you know with this stick in his hands and dancing around the table and doing his samurai sword stuff

[01:51:40] [SPEAKER_02] but to your point there's also like

[01:51:42] [SPEAKER_05] a relapse element yeah

[01:51:43] [SPEAKER_02] right like watching Totoro play billiards is safe for him it's like drinking a non-alcoholic beer right it's sort of just like you know what this was such a structure of my life that I need a version of this for the routine for the habit that isn't actually harmful to me and habit forming and then he witnesses like the uncut shit it's it's right there and he's just like oh fuck I

[01:52:12] [SPEAKER_02] I remember being that guy what if I was her what if I was managing someone like him like every angle of it is so activating to him

[01:52:21] [SPEAKER_06] isn't it also it's like because they're a package he's like you guys just hustle so well together right yeah because you guys are so good together

[01:52:28] [SPEAKER_02] which is part of what he misses is the symbiotic nature of it you know in The Hustler the original film is so much about that dynamic the sort of tragedy of him fucking up the partner he had who he valued and felt safe with and then getting fucked by the new flashier partner who like destroys his life and that pushed him away from all of it right and it's like yeah part of him you know having this long term stake in Totoro is like how extreme is that ever

[01:52:58] [SPEAKER_05] gonna get well I say the economics of it are also kind of interesting because inflation aside like they're they're passing 20s back and forth right like I don't know yeah he's like if when they talk about going on the road he's like we could make I don't know if it's down payment money yeah

[01:53:18] [SPEAKER_06] that's not my one last score

[01:53:20] [SPEAKER_05] kind of money so it's kind of like this is it's a grind like and it's just like you're trying to find fun in the grind but I don't also he seemingly has money he's like seemingly well enough

[01:53:31] [SPEAKER_02] off sure he's hiring around

[01:53:34] [SPEAKER_06] wads

[01:53:35] [SPEAKER_02] yeah man

[01:53:35] [SPEAKER_06] does he have like a bank account he's just got a shoebox I think he's wad wad yeah exactly so what happens I mean they pretty quickly go to he's like I gotta take her to dinner he goes to dinner right there's the whole dinner scene

[01:53:53] [SPEAKER_03] and he does that whole like kind of scam basically yeah like I'm gonna

[01:53:58] [SPEAKER_06] take this girl she's gonna reject him in 30 seconds I walk out of here

[01:54:01] [SPEAKER_02] much like the hustler like this opening scene the whole like Helen Shaver trying to sell the liquor the Turturro noticing them starting to talk to Master Antonio like button-holing her all of that is basically a sustained like 20 minute chunk of the movie much like the hustler where you're just really staying in this space and the dynamics of all of it

[01:54:23] [SPEAKER_05] there's also like that's where you start to get the rhythms and the intonations of the script and I do love all of the lore about them working price to the bone and sending him back and back and back to just tighten it and tighten it and Price has talked about like I you know I would write this stuff and I would be like this sounds incredible in my head and then they would say like it's too written it's too written and so there is this like feels like a classic novelist screenplay problem yeah but a lot of that opening sequence

[01:54:52] [SPEAKER_05] that you're talking about so much of it is just them giving each other looks so like when when Vincent is like let's just play play let's just play for play because I think the money is getting in your head and Newman just like looks up and he's like what the fuck did he just say but he doesn't say like no one ever talks like that in the pool hall you know it's just a look but it tells you everything and when Vincent is asking that Carmen is like Vincent because she's like we do this as a job like this is how we make money you can't be

[01:55:22] [SPEAKER_05] throwing away games against Julian here because he's $20 rack it's just like such a perfect setup for that world you can just know without knowing

[01:55:31] [SPEAKER_02] what you're dealing with it's also the classic movie star thing you know insecure actors in sort of leading positions you always hear want more dialogue more jokes more awesome moments and the guys and gals who are just completely minted are like take all this out I can sell that in a look I don't need this paragraph to explain it give me the three line the three word version of that line or let me truly just do it in a glance and like Newman

[01:56:01] [SPEAKER_02] knows that

[01:56:02] [SPEAKER_05] yeah I wonder what the longest stretch of uninterrupted speaking from Felsen is in this movie it can't be is there a monologue in this movie really I mean

[01:56:11] [SPEAKER_02] there's him in the car with Cruz but that's pretty sure I would say it's after Forrest Whitaker that's when it is

[01:56:17] [SPEAKER_06] where he's been brought low right

[01:56:19] [SPEAKER_02] but I love that this movie doesn't translate at all to that point that you feel like the worst version of this movie even though it would have a kind of trashy joy to it is one where Newman's like kid I'm gonna go to teach you the ropes and then he breaks down every single thing even just the way he starts saying at this dinner scene which to your point is very sexually charged the whole thing feels like is he sexually coveting Cruz is he trying to cut Cruz is he trying to

[01:56:49] [SPEAKER_02] be the third he's also sort of like trying to show his sexual prowess through the scam of him pretending he's picking up the woman like all that stuff but um and that's Lorraine Bracco's sister yeah

[01:57:03] [SPEAKER_06] Bracco yeah huh who knew and she's Vito's wife in the Sopranos I don't think I knew that

[01:57:10] [SPEAKER_02] I am realizing we're finally making good on our promise that we have to cover Goodfellas on this podcast because this podcast has been so damaging to Lorraine Bracco where we have only covered her worst performance wait apart from Medicine Man what's the other one Pinocchio forgot about that Chris how recently have you watched Robert Zemeckis' Pinocchio when was the last I actually have never seen it because you did a rewatchable wait what you didn't check that one out you mean you haven't seen it yet this hell

[01:57:37] [SPEAKER_05] but I was listening to um today I was listening to Fearless and I just wanted to say Zemeckis wise I will sometimes watch Flight on a flight that's absolutely I'm like

[01:57:50] [SPEAKER_02] because the action

[01:57:54] [SPEAKER_06] like navigate to it on the in-screen I have it saved on my phone I'll just be like we don't have that movie you maniac and I'm like

[01:58:02] [SPEAKER_02] fine let's crack the iPad open you hold on to an iPod video just to have flight in your pocket at all but I do

[01:58:08] [SPEAKER_04] it I roll it so I watch it upside down

[01:58:10] [SPEAKER_02] right when he's rolling it um no she plays a seagull in the Zemeckis Pinocchio that's an added character that is horrendous yeah it sounds like she is dying she's a great actor but it's her being like

[01:58:25] [SPEAKER_00] Pinocchio the fuck is going on that was all the money we had Pinocchio

[01:58:33] [SPEAKER_02] and we've like maybe there's a third one I'm forgetting but she is so shrill and unpleasant in that and in Medicine Man both of which are just horrible miscastings in ill-begotten films where we've had to be so rude to her and we've said like I think we must do Marty at some point just to put some respect on Lorraine Bronco's name I'm glad we'll get to do

[01:58:54] [SPEAKER_06] I don't know how many other movies we'll even ever like hit with her she doesn't have that if we do Gus Van Sant we'll get even Cowgirls get the blues yeah that's that might be it like I mean we're not maybe we do Richard Donner Radio Flyer oh sure yeah I don't know she didn't make a ton of oh you know what we'll do Penny Marshall riding cars with boys

[01:59:16] [SPEAKER_00] a penny for but isn't that one where she's like heck you're pregnant

[01:59:20] [SPEAKER_06] like I haven't seen that movie don't ride

[01:59:22] [SPEAKER_00] in cars with boys ride on bicycles alone they were gonna find it but it's like

[01:59:31] [SPEAKER_06] isn't that Goodfellas broke her a little bit of like you can scream your head off in that movie and it makes sense just put a revolver in your underwear

[01:59:39] [SPEAKER_02] it's funny because she rarely ever raises her voice in The Sopranos like at all no she's also quiet for long stretches of Goodfellas he uses that as a superpower and she has good reason to scream in Goodfellas

[01:59:51] [SPEAKER_06] stressful yes and also everyone's fucking screaming except for De Niro

[01:59:56] [SPEAKER_02] at the dinner scene and I just like even the sexual energy of him propositioning her for dinner and being like what do you mean you want to take us out like she clearly at first views it as this old man is hitting on me and I don't know if I'm interested or not but then doesn't understand what he wants out of the two of them together and then he goes on

[02:00:20] [SPEAKER_05] to explain it where he's like he's a thoroughbred like you make him run you make him feel good I teach him how to play

[02:00:26] [SPEAKER_02] because I think to her she's like if it's about the pool then why is he even bothering with me right and if it's about me then why is

[02:00:34] [SPEAKER_05] he because he has to construct this entire like she's getting bored of you working at Toys R Us or Child World of course

[02:00:43] [SPEAKER_06] I'm thinking of reviving Child World by the way what do you guys think that's where the third Jesus Santana movie happens it's just like you see something like this and you're like what child wants to go in there that was like

[02:00:59] [SPEAKER_04] private equity before there was private equity like can we just get a kid world or a child world even

[02:01:04] [SPEAKER_02] could you imagine the fucking field day Fox News would have with Child World today the conspiracies would just write themselves

[02:01:11] [SPEAKER_05] camped outside yeah just the only other thing on the dinner is shout out to whoever was the like the food food art person in this because it's because it's like the chocolate mousse the cup of coffee the after the digestif it's all like arrayed there at the perfect level of like I had three bites of that I had a sip of this I had a sip of that like it's the we've had a big long steakhouse dinner and like Paul

[02:01:40] [SPEAKER_02] Newman 50 pictures kid shit like he knows exactly how to eat on camera what to eat when to take the bites for emphasis to the point of the movie not feeling the need to hold your hand or translate things the way he talks about like you're quite a character kid and Cruz is like yeah right and he's like no I mean in a negative way you're a flake but it's hard to be a flake and this and that and you're just like great I know enough I don't need you to spell this out to me I understand what you're saying I understand there's more to it if I dug

[02:02:08] [SPEAKER_02] deeper to this lingo but let's just we're off to the races this guy knows everything and they just want to be next to him and we're not

[02:02:17] [SPEAKER_06] going to Vincent is like you know raw putty like he's going to get molded but we're not going to watch him do like training montages with them there's one montage in the film it's well deployed yes it's much later like yes there is no point and he's like and you know you got to pop the balls one to nine as we all remember or whatever um okay so they go to Atlantic City right the next the next chunks in Atlantic City right well it's

[02:02:40] [SPEAKER_03] leading up to yeah they do a whole road trip around the they're on the road they're

[02:02:44] [SPEAKER_05] ending up in Atlantic City right but that's um it's like hey why don't we go on the road couple weeks we're gonna make a couple grand and then we're gonna go to Atlantic City and all the games outside of the tournament are where you make all your

[02:02:56] [SPEAKER_06] money right we'll get in my caddy I get how much does he get like 60% of their winnings or something but he's

[02:03:04] [SPEAKER_03] paying for lodging

[02:03:05] [SPEAKER_02] and food yeah and and by the way in The Hustler it's 75 that's George C. Scott's deal with him right I do think it's important that he's offering a better deal than the one he was given yeah they should have gotten George C. Scott back they should he's still alive at this point

[02:03:21] [SPEAKER_06] right yeah yeah because his last or no I'm sorry he was federally barred from entering any pool halls the drunkest man in the world that's right

[02:03:31] [SPEAKER_02] his last film was Angus I think which is like 96 right yeah haven't seen U.S.

[02:03:38] [SPEAKER_06] Marshalls pull him out of any bar he goes into right well no it's just more like they're like George C. Scott went in a bar filming has been delayed by eight days like it's just I mean that was like the vibe back did George C.

[02:03:48] [SPEAKER_02] Scott win best actor once or twice just once okay just for Patton yeah

[02:03:52] [SPEAKER_06] yeah he was nominated for the Hustler yes it's I think it's part of why Gleeson doesn't win is there's two Hustler supporting actor nominees we

[02:03:59] [SPEAKER_02] were because we were talking about this the other day I was calling out how crazy it is that Gleeson also never won an Emmy and your point was well the Honeymooners only ran for one

[02:04:07] [SPEAKER_06] season right I mean like he was nominated twice before for I did research on this yeah the Jackie Gleeson show which of course had like the Ralph Cramden sketches in it like the originator

[02:04:17] [SPEAKER_02] producing nominations writing nominations acting nominations

[02:04:19] [SPEAKER_05] ran for one year and also there was I always thought Honeymooners was like 500 episodes that's what everyone

[02:04:24] [SPEAKER_06] thinks like it was like one of those like I love Lucy type shows but yeah 30 episodes for one

[02:04:29] [SPEAKER_02] year or whatever the other thing is he was nominated I think in 1952 for best comedian which was just a category it wasn't comedy special at the Oscars no for the Emmys it was like best host and best comedian and I think he lost to Durante maybe I wouldn't put it past the Oscars I mean what about best comedian they should have

[02:04:49] [SPEAKER_05] did that

[02:04:49] [SPEAKER_02] yeah I mean that's kind of what the Globes tried to do right you know like it didn't work out the thing I was going to say is just to tell Ben because I think you would appreciate this George C. Scott most ornery man in the world from the Hustler that's his first nomination his first nomination is for Anatomy of a Murder

[02:05:09] [SPEAKER_06] oh his second is for the Hustler

[02:05:12] [SPEAKER_02] refuses the nomination this is the thing there's a big note on the Oscars for that year which is George C. Scott refused the nomination he refused to accept it as valid George C. Scott was very anti-awards show he was just like acting shouldn't be a competition this is ridiculous never showed up anytime they nominated him he was like fuck off so he just publicly was like fuck that

[02:05:34] [SPEAKER_00] he wasn't like

[02:05:35] [SPEAKER_02] I'm not gonna show up he was like I call bullshit

[02:05:39] [SPEAKER_05] on your whole thing so he would he reject the nomination and they would then give it to like the next alternate no no

[02:05:45] [SPEAKER_06] they just were like

[02:05:46] [SPEAKER_02] well you're nominated he's like well I refuse

[02:05:48] [SPEAKER_06] and they're like too bad

[02:05:49] [SPEAKER_02] go on a Wikipedia and IMDb it always has like parenthetical George C. Scott didn't show up refused the nomination

[02:05:55] [SPEAKER_06] and then he wins for Patton in 70 and obviously does not show up and then he was nominated once more for the hospital

[02:06:02] [SPEAKER_02] I couldn't remember if he also won for the hospital but yeah

[02:06:04] [SPEAKER_06] no they gave it to him the one time for Patton where they're like look you're one of the greatest actors ever and you just were in this movie that's winning best picture and you're so good in it and he was like I refuse fuck you we're giving it to you anyway Georgie

[02:06:16] [SPEAKER_02] how funny would it be if he showed up for the hospital Oscars and was sitting there like really nervous with his

[02:06:23] [SPEAKER_04] I really think I nailed it this time he's fucking good

[02:06:26] [SPEAKER_06] I regret not going and giving a speech so alright call our money come on

[02:06:31] [SPEAKER_03] the first pool hall he tries to take them to is now just like a furniture that's the Lincoln place there's something to that of just showing that he's like an old man now you're an artifact yeah

[02:06:45] [SPEAKER_05] now when you watch Lincoln Taproom that's what it's called right and then when you watch it you're kind of like at what point do these people start playing one another right like at what point is Mary Elizabeth Master is Carmen starting to think about well how will we get out how are the wheels turning why are we giving him this percentage and what point is he like I'm using Vincent as a mechanism to like get myself back into this what's the long play exactly but like I don't think that the pool hall that never opened but that leads to I believe the next place

[02:07:14] [SPEAKER_05] is the he's playing the old man with the old man with the trach and it's like kind of a shitty almost like VFW and that's the fight where he's just like

[02:07:24] [SPEAKER_04] family

[02:07:25] [SPEAKER_05] god damn it get your hands off yeah he plays

[02:07:27] [SPEAKER_03] pretends to be his dad yeah who's disappointed yeah

[02:07:31] [SPEAKER_06] when does he lecture Master Antonio I feel like that's pretty early on when she's kind of like sitting around braless

[02:07:37] [SPEAKER_05] that is they've arrived already at Bill Cobb's house of houses of the holy

[02:07:42] [SPEAKER_02] it's after Cruz has gotten the shit kicked out of him

[02:07:44] [SPEAKER_05] yeah and he goes in and they this is the most kind of like I think legible like pool hall where they walk in and they're like that's the best guy but that's the richest guy and if you beat the best guy the richest guy won't want to play you but if you fumble around for a while the richest guy might get curious and then we're working with thousands of dollars but Moselle you're just playing this guy for 20 bucks a throw and is Cobb

[02:08:15] [SPEAKER_05] Cobb's the fuck best Cobb's so good in this I know he also just basically

[02:08:19] [SPEAKER_02] doing a paragraph of dialogue with a look in this yes I mean that man could really sell a hundred years of life with a just like a glance he's the

[02:08:31] [SPEAKER_03] owner he's the owner

[02:08:33] [SPEAKER_02] steadiest fucking hand in the world yeah and he's also the magical janitor in Hudsucker Proxy but he's in 8,000 things

[02:08:44] [SPEAKER_05] but this is the scene you're referring to is when Newman goes into the motel room and she's in her underwear and a flannel shirt tied up around her stomach and he goes keep the shirt nice touch yeah and then he says you know where's the balabushka yes and she's like well he went out and you let him and he has to go after him

[02:09:07] [SPEAKER_02] the other the other thing with the the scene uh Ben you know a lot of The Hustler which I assume you haven't seen the original you'd probably you would love it

[02:09:17] [SPEAKER_03] no I want it I just I didn't get time no no

[02:09:19] [SPEAKER_02] I'm just saying like you'd probably dig a lot of its vibe yeah the movie is basically equally a very tragic love story yes it's got a very very very dark romantic Piper Piper Laurie as sort of a very broken woman they're two kind of broken people who find each other in their dysfunction and uh the way he's talking to Mary Elizabeth Master Antonio in this scene where he's clearly attracted to her but he's also saying like and would you dress like this if any man walked in here and what if it was a guy like this

[02:09:48] [SPEAKER_02] it's all kind of like fascinating not overstated echoes of him uh still struggling to process the tragedy of uh the original film yes there there is a whole situation in that movie of men and sexual violence

[02:10:08] [SPEAKER_03] and you kind of this is the first time where Cobb mentions that you get at least just a little bit of sense of the legacy of this guy and they I think that's the first time where they refer to him by his nickname yeah

[02:10:22] [SPEAKER_05] and there's this is also the first time he plays cool in the movie is when he's playing with Vincent just to just to hit the ball hit some balls and to like draw a little bit of attention that's when he gets

[02:10:33] [SPEAKER_06] the crash zoom

[02:10:33] [SPEAKER_05] and yeah fuck I'm alive the uh which I guess kind of brings us to werewolves and I wanted to ask you guys about this I think I've I this is an idea that like I I'm obsessed with is the the flight of the Valkyries problem in a movie when it peaks too early when you peak at minute 55 yep and when if if anything was better than this it would be like

[02:11:03] [SPEAKER_05] the greatest movie of all time yeah I will say this

[02:11:06] [SPEAKER_06] this film has an incredible ending yeah like literally like the last two minutes of this film you're like hell yeah but yes this is tough too tough this moment here

[02:11:16] [SPEAKER_02] it's also interesting because I flight of the Valkyries problem is the exact right way to put it yes

[02:11:21] [SPEAKER_06] there are movies where everyone's like I love apocalypse now I of course always stop watching about 65 minutes

[02:11:28] [SPEAKER_02] it's not like all movies usually great films peak at the ending you go through history and you're like what's the best scene sometimes it's the opening sometimes it's the middle sometimes it's here or whatever it is a distinct thing of a movie hitting a level of transcendence where you're just like this is as good as shit gets I wouldn't rather be anywhere else in the world right now I could watch this forever and you feel them sort of like not fully successfully

[02:11:58] [SPEAKER_02] dismount off of that the movie doesn't comfortably transition you from that high into something that feels equally satisfying or even if the movie still remains excellent you're just like I am thinking about how much better I felt 20 minutes ago though

[02:12:13] [SPEAKER_05] he has I'm sure you guys will talk about all of them throughout this series a series of moments in his movies that remain transcendent despite the level of analysis so you can watch the Copacabana Warner or you can watch Werewolves of London or you can watch like all these different scenes and you can just be like I can watch this and think about every single thing that has to happen for this shot to work or I can just listen to the music and watch the guys I can just vibe yeah and

[02:12:42] [SPEAKER_05] it never the magic never goes away even once you know what the trick is

[02:12:47] [SPEAKER_02] Goodfellas is an interesting comparison point because it has like four of these and is the problem that if you have multiple scenes at that level of transcendence it evens out you have multiple tent of poles that are elevating us and bringing us down versus if there's just one kind of peak moment at the middle that is so perfect but I feel like I can watch the fucking shine box scene 8,000 times never get tired of it but when that scene ends and the movie continues if I'm watching

[02:13:17] [SPEAKER_02] Goodfellas in full I'm not disappointed I'm not like can we rewind back to shine I was rewinding this I was literally just kind of like going like let me go back to the beginning of this one more time

[02:13:30] [SPEAKER_03] just when he hits though the line his hair is perfect and you realize that Tom Cruise is like it's not just being played over the scene he's in it like the song is being played in the room there's also

[02:13:41] [SPEAKER_05] early Robbie Robertson like dub master stuff going on here where Robbie stuff is so good it goes from first of all like they're playing well first of first of all in the script it's James Brown so that's it's supposed to be James Brown not Werewolves of London

[02:13:59] [SPEAKER_06] werewolves of London is the perfect choice but that feels like such a Marty choice it's the difference

[02:14:02] [SPEAKER_05] between Scorsese and Richard Price Richard Price is like hey he's listening to fucking James Brown and then Martin Sorsese what did what did do but James Brown song would it like the big payback no it's faster it was I can't remember what it is I have the script on the laptop I'll look for it but the die it's like diegetic so it's like playing through a PA system at the pool hall and they're playing Clapton and then when they cut to werewolves it's Paul Newman driving down to the pool hall to meet them and in the

[02:14:32] [SPEAKER_05] opposite lanes or whatever sound design choice they made the car horns like with the fucking song

[02:14:47] [SPEAKER_06] yes I'm a huge Warren Zevon guy I don't know if I've ever talked about this on the show before are you guys pro Warren Zevon I think

[02:14:55] [SPEAKER_03] it's that one album of his that I really love

[02:14:57] [SPEAKER_06] the second album the self titled yes yeah that is the greatest rock album of the 70s he's just such an unusual guy there is nobody like his

[02:15:06] [SPEAKER_03] career is so weird uh

[02:15:09] [SPEAKER_06] excitable boy is the album you're talking about right excitable voice is third album which has werewolves of london on it which is a good album his second album Warren Zevon is the greatest rock album of the 70s it is the best the one that begins with Frank and Jesse James ends with Desperado some of the eves it's basically like hanging out all night in an LA bar the last song it's four in the morning and you're like we should all kill ourselves it'll be so great what's his first album is called wanted dead or alive and it's like you know

[02:15:39] [SPEAKER_06] it's got some stuff but like Warren Zevon he never topped it like the second album like he made music for another 50 years and I feel like he kind of became the werewolves of london guy he had

[02:15:51] [SPEAKER_03] that last album which is really good

[02:15:57] [SPEAKER_06] enjoy every sandwich stuff and all that which like I you know that was all very profound I'm not like shitting on it

[02:16:03] [SPEAKER_02] have you guys ever heard or seen adam sandler doing werewolves of london

[02:16:07] [SPEAKER_06] no you know what i can imagine it him going

[02:16:12] [SPEAKER_02] but he like

[02:16:13] [SPEAKER_06] crushes it

[02:16:14] [SPEAKER_02] there's that thing with sandler where he's an incredible singer yeah but it feels like he's almost embarrassed by how beautiful a voice he has so even when especially when does his comedy music he kind of like does a comedy voice on top of it and and other things where he's sung but then there were like the scenes and wedding singer where people are like this is dubbed right he's not this good of a crooner and all of it's real when zeevan died they did a tribute album called enjoy every sandwich which was his quote from his final

[02:16:43] [SPEAKER_02] letterman interview and sandler did werewolves of london as a recording but also performed it live on letterman and it's incredible and you're sort of like oh what he's having fun I can imagine doing like werewolves of london but he just sings the shit out of it it's awesome I highly recommend it the song is awesome I also love that cocktail is the beginning of and I guess it starts in top gun but it's only after the success of top gun

[02:17:13] [SPEAKER_02] that cruise identifies this in top gun it feels more reflective of the Bruckheimer Simpson worldview and then cruise takes it with him until the couch jump roughly early 2000s let's say late 90s Tom Cruise movies are primarily about a guy who is the fucking best at something either he's always been the best or he's immediately he becomes the best so quickly and people doubt him they're like hey hot shot

[02:17:43] [SPEAKER_02] too fast too much you're feeling yourself like take it down a peg and he's like fuck you

[02:17:49] [SPEAKER_05] I'm the only one who can save us

[02:17:51] [SPEAKER_02] I'm better than you think I am and I'm gonna prove you wrong there's like a distinct lack of learning in a kind of like peak Tom Cruise movie star movie and part of what's so electrifying of the werewolves London scene is you're like this guy is going to crash you're watching a guy who's just like feeling himself way too hard when he starts doing the karate moves you know him singing along as you said that he's like making the lyrics about himself in a way

[02:18:21] [SPEAKER_02] and you're watching Newman watch him and be like this guy doesn't understand how much suffering he has ahead of him in his life he also but like

[02:18:29] [SPEAKER_05] he's so bad at being a it's the flake thing it's like he's so bad at throwing or at at like sandbagging so that they can entice this guy because he's beating Moselle one-handed he's like I'm I'm just fucking dancing around the table and Moselle sits down like he's like I know I'm not going to hit again you know like

[02:18:49] [SPEAKER_06] and like

[02:18:50] [SPEAKER_05] that's where

[02:18:50] [SPEAKER_06] Eddie chews him out of like you're losing us money right like you're yeah if you if you're this good no one wants to play you or no one wants to

[02:18:58] [SPEAKER_02] you're you're you're making money on this game you're losing money on the next five games everyone else who's standing around watching you fuck in like

[02:19:28] [SPEAKER_02] a year he might be the best in the world but there's this early scene where George C. Scott calls him a loser after he's like one and it's just sort of like fundamentally you're a loser like you have the mentality of a loser and what he's calling out is a certain vulnerability of this guy so badly needing to be seen as the best and that desperation even though he doesn't do this kind of peacocking even though he is good at like throwing people off there's he wants it a little

[02:19:54] [SPEAKER_05] too badly that's what undoes him when the Forrest Whitaker character in Color of Money beats him is he's like basically like I've uncovered the old wound of where you're just like you're you're a dupe

[02:20:05] [SPEAKER_02] because without fully spoiling it where the hustler ends is he experiences this like tremendous tragedy and at the end he shows up and he's like I'm a winner you're a loser basically because I've lost everything and I'm hollowed out now inside like I don't feel the stakes of losing I have nothing left to lose which makes me invincible and you see the Jackie Gleason character who is the best in the world look at him and be like fuck this guy's dangerous now you know he doesn't even try to step up to him and so there is

[02:20:34] [SPEAKER_02] this whole feeling of Newman lashing out at him being like this guy doesn't understand that like eventually something in his life will humble him that he is going to be hollowed out and he is peacocking so much more than I did at my peak that like this fall is gonna be fucking brutal and it's it's yes the Forrest Whitaker thing is it hits him so hard because he Newman thinks he is decades past

[02:21:04] [SPEAKER_02] being able to care that much

[02:21:05] [SPEAKER_06] right it's not just that he got hustled it's how it hurts well he gets hustled at the

[02:21:10] [SPEAKER_05] thing that he says he's the expert right exactly he gets he says like pool excellence it's not about excellent pool it's about being a student of human moves and he just misses that Forrest Whitaker's playing him you know he thinks he's just he's got another guy that he's gonna take 40 bucks off of or 80 bucks off of

[02:21:25] [SPEAKER_06] can't see the forest in the trees I mean it's kind of vital

[02:21:28] [SPEAKER_02] literally he literally can't see the forest through the trees

[02:21:30] [SPEAKER_06] well that is so true and but like it is kind of vital in a way to me because I am like how does this economy work like how can there be this many people who you can hustle enough to continue eating food and it's like you know what fucking sometimes this shit happens even to supposedly like wise guy

[02:21:48] [SPEAKER_02] Forrest Whitaker also has an entirely different style yeah totally you get that he he would be duped by him because he's not

[02:21:56] [SPEAKER_05] I used to be like I was working at a medical school like participating in lab experiments like he seems like a complete freak

[02:22:03] [SPEAKER_02] yeah he's got a totally different backstory he's got a totally different demeanor and part of it is that Forrest Whitaker is such a unique performer

[02:22:11] [SPEAKER_06] where you're like I mean is there anyone like Forrest Whitaker before or now when he asks him

[02:22:16] [SPEAKER_05] like hey can I ask you something do you think I should lose some weight it's like it's like you're asking Paul Newman

[02:22:21] that

[02:22:22] [SPEAKER_05] but yes

[02:22:22] [SPEAKER_02] yes but it's right and like even in that moment you're like is this still some part of like some fucking mind game or is this just him spiting him to be like on top of it I'm still gonna pretend like I'm just sort of an idiot savant or is it like a genuine moment of vulnerability being like hey now that I've beaten you and I maybe have your respect can you tell me do you think losing weight would help my hustle like there's there's a read on it like that but he's

[02:22:51] [SPEAKER_06] yeah kind of like it's the jersey swap moment afterwards where he's like you know yeah like can I hey like I know you're an expert or you're an old hand Forrest Whitaker

[02:23:01] [SPEAKER_02] is just kind of like like a universal monster where you're like this guy who is so intimidating and scary and sad simultaneously just always feels so tragic and so vulnerable and is a guy who feels like he's being explosive and loud even when he's like literally whispering

[02:23:16] [SPEAKER_05] is this platoon year

[02:23:20] [SPEAKER_08] 86 is platoon

[02:23:21] [SPEAKER_06] so he does he's so those are he's in platoon yeah like before this his only credits are fast times something called tag the assassination game the Nick Castle movie which I think he has a tiny part and vision quest the Matthew Modine movie he's got a tiny part

[02:23:37] [SPEAKER_02] about this in the fast times episode though he gets a couple parts early on and he's like I don't know enough about acting and basically pulls himself out of auditioning and is like I need to study more seriously and 86 is his reemergence year of like I think I I can be at the table I can hold my own against Paul Newman this is this is the moment that like really kind of defines the rest of his career right the fact that he's able to fucking nail this scene yeah

[02:24:06] [SPEAKER_06] because the next year he's got Good Morning Vietnam which is like a pretty big role like that's pretty much yeah and then the year after that is Bird which is just I mean it's one of my favorite Clint Eastwood movies it's probably my favorite Forrest Whitaker performance like and it's like did that make him a star no because like Forrest Whitaker like you say is so specific but it made him an enduring Hollywood figure he's like

[02:24:32] [SPEAKER_02] a Giamatti where you're like this guy has a number of excellent vehicles under his belt and Forrest Whitaker obviously won a leading acting Oscar even though that's kind of supporting performance

[02:24:44] [SPEAKER_06] it kind of yeah but you know whatever but you're like

[02:24:47] [SPEAKER_02] he's primarily a character actor who a couple times the right project has met him exactly where he's at and it's the kind of movie that could only be led by

[02:24:55] [SPEAKER_06] he's also like ghost dog like it's just

[02:24:57] [SPEAKER_02] like no one could have been fucking ghost

[02:24:59] [SPEAKER_06] dog but I'm like

[02:25:00] [SPEAKER_02] like ghost dog bird last king of Scotland the butler right you're like he has like a collection of movie star movies

[02:25:07] [SPEAKER_06] and then but then it's also like is there a hostage situation in a movie guess what tired cop is picking up the phone

[02:25:14] [SPEAKER_02] or he's the guy who's being held hostage or he's that either please please he's a very

[02:25:20] [SPEAKER_05] effective psychic cop in a species oh god

[02:25:23] [SPEAKER_06] the fucking weirdest movie ever made

[02:25:25] [SPEAKER_05] where he walks into rooms he's like someone was hurt here and there's like 14 gallons of blood on the

[02:25:30] [SPEAKER_02] floor we should do species on patreon only so that we can hear Ben's sort of if I were in this movie it'd end with me owning an island if I were in I would not make any mistakes I'd have a bunch of good sex and still be alive

[02:25:43] [SPEAKER_00] she would recognize that I was cool

[02:25:46] [SPEAKER_06] I've not tear my spine out one and two uh-huh I haven't seen three but which I think was straight to TV or whatever but some have told me is not bad it's still Henstridge I think Henstridge might just be doing a little cameo and it was directed by love Diaz right who did three was directed of course that was written by

[02:26:10] [SPEAKER_05] Schrader

[02:26:10] [SPEAKER_06] by Brad Turner a TV okay

[02:26:14] [SPEAKER_02] a TV guy okay Henstridge reprises the role briefly in the opening scene it was a sci-fi channel original

[02:26:22] [SPEAKER_06] yes but there's

[02:26:23] [SPEAKER_02] an uncut correct

[02:26:25] [SPEAKER_06] there's like a sexier version of it that I have been told I know this because you've heard that the sexy version is the good one is that what you're saying no I know that you know I did both species one and two on the authorized novelizations podcast I picked species one kind of because I was like that's funny there's an official novelization of that and then of course was hit with the news by over be of and don't you worry there was a novelization of species two as well both written by a woman yeah hey and

[02:26:55] [SPEAKER_06] so I watched one and two there's

[02:26:56] [SPEAKER_02] a fourth

[02:26:57] [SPEAKER_06] one as well there is species the awakening

[02:27:00] [SPEAKER_02] standalone sequel not a direct follow-up yeah I'm sure fans are furious I don't know I do want to call out that species four was briefly titled species colon quattro was it really yeah which I'm realizing I don't know if any franchise has done that not yet right

[02:27:30] [SPEAKER_02] no the never made old school sequel was supposed to be called old school dose uh sure yeah I just think the untapped potential here

[02:27:40] [SPEAKER_06] let's do it yeah I think that saying Natasha Hintstridge should be like part of like a president's cognitive test

[02:27:47] [SPEAKER_05] I noticed that you've only said Mary Elizabeth Master Antonio once in entirety and it is one of the great I trip over the last names

[02:27:56] [SPEAKER_06] Mary Elizabeth Master Antonio what was the tennis player in the 90s uh fuck Mia Master no who are you talking about Sanchez Vicario oh yeah

[02:28:06] [SPEAKER_05] Alexis Sanchez

[02:28:07] [SPEAKER_06] Vicario I just always was I loved a name where it's like this is this is uh no it's uh right Aranta or uh I didn't know I don't know how you say your first name but you know I loved a meal of a name

[02:28:20] [SPEAKER_02] Mary Elizabeth Master Antonio feels like a rollercoaster it's fun to say you feel satisfied when you you come into the land do you think her

[02:28:28] [SPEAKER_05] and Stuart Masterson were just in a death stare about who got the three names

[02:28:32] [SPEAKER_06] yeah now Mary Stewart Masterson is the daughter of Peter Masterson who was like a big actor right like she was uh she was um you know Hollywood royalty whereas Miss Mary Elizabeth Master Antonio's father worked operated a bronze foundry in Oak Park Illinois Illinois so she was uh how did

[02:28:53] [SPEAKER_02] she get Scarface

[02:28:56] [SPEAKER_06] I don't know man she was on

[02:28:57] [SPEAKER_02] Broadway and various musicals including as an understudy in the 1980 run of West Side Story that's like three years before Scarface

[02:29:04] [SPEAKER_06] yeah I don't know I mean she rocks she's got an interesting career in that she's made very few movies she was in the original

[02:29:10] [SPEAKER_02] production of Amadeus

[02:29:11] [SPEAKER_06] that sounds good

[02:29:12] [SPEAKER_02] um I'll check it out that must have led to yeah it feels like she gets cast in Scarface off of that yeah she's in very few movies I wonder if just like Pacino scenes are on Broadway or something like that

[02:29:22] [SPEAKER_05] it has to be yeah

[02:29:24] [SPEAKER_02] obviously that's a humongous show uh and she's in the original cast but she's done

[02:29:30] [SPEAKER_06] a fair amount of theater but like it's just crazy that like it's like her movie credits are Scarface Color of Money Slamdance January Man The Abyss that's her whole 80s she has

[02:29:40] [SPEAKER_02] made only three films this century and one of them's a short film yeah she was in a film in 2015 called A Muck she basically hasn't made a movie since The Perfect Storm she basically hasn't made a movie since The Perfect Storm she also her husband directed The January Man is that right yes she's married to Patrick O'Connor who directed most of what she has made since the 90s right who made the terrible film Stars

[02:30:08] [SPEAKER_06] and Bars which I talked about on a big picture episode one yes one of the least relevant Daniel Day-Lewis movies ever made is it fair to say the least

[02:30:15] [SPEAKER_02] relevant probably is anything really competing with that I don't

[02:30:18] [SPEAKER_06] think so

[02:30:20] [SPEAKER_02] but yeah no it's it's like Robin Hood Prince of Thieves is kind of her final major movie star move

[02:30:26] [SPEAKER_06] yeah which she's good in that I guess she's good in that I like that movie so much you like that

[02:30:34] [SPEAKER_02] movie so much I really do I think I haven't seen that movie since I was like a kid I think that movie's really fucking fun I rewatched it when we were doing Costner Rickman's so good and then folded that movie is also wrong I was like we should fold this but they're also like two different versions now

[02:30:46] [SPEAKER_06] right

[02:30:46] [SPEAKER_02] right

[02:30:46] [SPEAKER_06] we should just like Costner Ghost directed this let's just do it on like the Costner series

[02:30:52] [SPEAKER_02] we were debating whether or not to do it and the Costner series was short but then we did a Waterworld episode so I was like I should rewatch Prince of Thieves a movie I similarly had like watched in pieces on cable and maybe never sat down and watched from beginning to end and I just maybe it was the contrast between the two there's a lot I like in Waterworld but it's obviously so long and bloated and Robin Hood Prince of Thieves I thought was like so much fun from beginning to end got that Kino 4K pre-ordered

[02:31:21] [SPEAKER_02] oh do you I you know I think I have I have what the fuck am I talking about this is so embarrassing this is embarrassing Trace is gonna fucking eat me for lunch

[02:31:32] [SPEAKER_06] but like Tracee I just feel like like pallets arrive at his house every day and they just get added to the pile right like

[02:31:40] [SPEAKER_02] I have questions I'm like is he on the subscription list is he on press lists is he just pre-ordering everything a la carte one by one I don't know the methodology

[02:31:53] [SPEAKER_05] for he was very open about his AV man he was very open on the big picture physical media episode about who he watches movies with yep but he was a little bit

[02:32:04] [SPEAKER_02] circumspect about like where does it all come from where does it all come from which you know it's the real question of life I mean it's the essential question we all grapple with when he read off the AV man's text A I could not believe probably the peak of podcasting truly yeah truly truly truly beyond that maybe the peak of human language I was like I could not believe how well written this text was I think you called out you were like is this how he typed it out

[02:32:30] [SPEAKER_05] because it felt like the part in Annie Hall where he brings McLuhan out from behind the post he's like in fact I have my AV man right here I was like did you know that we were gonna ask you this and had him

[02:32:40] [SPEAKER_02] pre-write it it was insane how good it was and how thorough it was and just if I were reading that out in text I think it would give me goosebumps have Tracy be the one to give it a dramatic he's a good reader I mean he he can lend

[02:32:57] [SPEAKER_06] a lot of gravitas to something

[02:32:58] [SPEAKER_01] the highest grade in British silicone married to the excellence and German engineering from a rents

[02:33:06] [SPEAKER_06] he doesn't kind of lock you into where you live you're like fuck I can't leave now I don't think he's planning to no I don't think

[02:33:12] [SPEAKER_02] we get tempted about it he's got the movie theater my question is how do I become the next name yeah exactly how do I move in there we need a court jester like what what roles are still open in that household I think

[02:33:25] [SPEAKER_06] yeah I don't know what does Tracy eat I could I could cook I could

[02:33:29] [SPEAKER_05] Tracy very convincingly could have appeared in this film especially as the guy who loses to Eddie and then is like can I buy you a drink and Eddie's like let me buy you a drink I don't know who that guy is he's probably like an actual pool hall denzian that they found

[02:33:45] [SPEAKER_06] I mean like Kevin McCready is in this film who is a real life hustler

[02:33:50] [SPEAKER_05] he's Brady seasons or is he somebody else

[02:33:53] [SPEAKER_06] he is Brady seasons he is a real hustler who plays under the name Earthquake who has an unusual like side form which I think is part of his hustle he's very poetic when he's moving around the table right like he doesn't look like a sort of like traditional pool pro or whatever

[02:34:13] [SPEAKER_05] worth mentioning I guess

[02:34:14] [SPEAKER_06] Iggy Pop I was gonna say

[02:34:15] [SPEAKER_05] yeah we got a

[02:34:16] [SPEAKER_06] fantastic Iggy Pop as credited as skinny player on road yep who else did you guys

[02:34:23] [SPEAKER_05] wish there had been a couple of more like two brothers and a stranger style cons in halls because I also wanted to interrogate the fact that Newman's like it's have you ever done two brothers and a stranger and it's like it involves me grabbing your girlfriend's ass and I was like where's the two brothers like if we were doing two brothers

[02:34:46] [SPEAKER_02] would we also be like grab assing or what I don't need them to explain them to me but I do want to see multiple types of hustles yeah yeah I love any kind of like you can put on

[02:34:57] [SPEAKER_06] stuff you know I also want to shout out Paul Herman who's he was beansy in the Sopranos he's another of the pool

[02:35:07] [SPEAKER_05] oh he's the guy at Atlantic City who's just like I'm gonna give you 1500 and you give me 800 and I have to beat you eight times but you have to beat me nine times yes yeah love that guy why don't you guys just play pool for money

[02:35:20] [SPEAKER_06] why doesn't it just be like whoever wins wins the money feels easy enough

[02:35:24] [SPEAKER_02] he's an Irishman

[02:35:26] [SPEAKER_06] he's in a ton of gangster

[02:35:29] [SPEAKER_05] but I always think of him he's the gun dealer from Pittsburgh in Goodfellas he's like he was the helicopters

[02:35:36] [SPEAKER_02] he's also he's De Niro's main Eagles buddy in Silver Linings playbook

[02:35:42] [SPEAKER_06] yes he's in Silver Linings right yes which is sort of like a gangster movie without gangsters and everyone in that movie is kind of a low life right yeah that's

[02:35:52] [SPEAKER_02] that's one I have not had the courage to rewatch that movie and I really wonder how it would go down right now not even in a like is it problematic way but just like were we all drunk what was the fucking thing I didn't love

[02:36:05] [SPEAKER_06] that shit at the time yes so like I don't know like I was not like my opinion of all I liked the fighter a lot the fighter really nailed the whole kind of like dirtbag yeah I agree that I just felt like he was kind of losing it more and more with every movie

[02:36:24] [SPEAKER_02] all three of those worked for me until joy where it fell apart so hard and I have not rewatched any of them that's the vacuum yes and in my mind's eye I'm like well the fighter still is legitimately pretty great right and then the performances are good

[02:36:40] [SPEAKER_06] it's kind of an overwrought movie American Hustle

[02:36:43] [SPEAKER_02] which I loved at the

[02:36:44] [SPEAKER_05] time I'm just like I know I would you know I remember being so hyped for American Hustle and midway through it you wanted to get over all these guys you did want to get over it's gotta be the best we've ever

[02:36:54] [SPEAKER_01] done that movie

[02:36:56] [SPEAKER_06] I mean I hated at the time I know we fought

[02:36:59] [SPEAKER_02] about it and I was like it's fun and now when I like replay scenes in my mind I'm embarrassed but the fighter I wonder if it if it is actually the last good one or if we watched it now we'd be like going to see the signs of where this is going

[02:37:14] [SPEAKER_06] probably a little bit it also was just more of a novelty it was like oh the I heard Huckabee's guy made this like you know low Massachusetts like Oscar bait thing right and it's

[02:37:32] [SPEAKER_02] well this conversation is irrelevant because obviously he rebounded and hit his peak form in Amsterdam I mean he figured the whole thing out and now his upcoming Al Davis

[02:37:41] [SPEAKER_05] movie should be pretty solid Christ I fucking forgot I forgot that was I'm a little excited well I just Bale's dedication to him is kind of impressive Bale's dedication Bale has like got to be one of the greatest homies ever to be like whatever you want to do man it's my beef with it is that Bale

[02:38:03] [SPEAKER_06] doesn't make a ton of movies and has wasted a lot of time making David O. Russell movies where I'm like he could have worked with some other guys it is a

[02:38:10] [SPEAKER_02] stat I love to repeat which is Christian Bale one of our greatest living actors in my opinion one of the great screen actors and we think of as being such a dramatic intense actor all of his Oscar nominations are either for Adam McKay or David O. Russell movies correct they're his two guys now it's and you

[02:38:29] [SPEAKER_06] know it's tough but like the idea of Bale being like I've studied Al Davis tape for two years I'm going to occupy Al Davis in a way no one ever has and Cage is like get that wig on me I think I can do I saw Madden 1983

[02:38:45] [SPEAKER_03] who is Al Davis

[02:38:47] [SPEAKER_06] Al Davis was the I mean he was the owner of the Los Angeles

[02:38:51] [SPEAKER_05] and Oakland

[02:38:51] [SPEAKER_06] of the Raiders wasn't he

[02:38:53] [SPEAKER_05] also kind of the GM or whatever like yeah he was an old school like I'm king like I get I'm the owner I'm the GM I also am the offensive coordinator and everybody runs fast and the quarterback just win

[02:39:06] [SPEAKER_06] baby

[02:39:06] [SPEAKER_05] was his

[02:39:07] [SPEAKER_06] famous motto but he was like a genuinely transformational figure in football who like he was a force for good by and large

[02:39:17] [SPEAKER_02] but Ben this is Madden a David O Russell film coming out this year

[02:39:20] [SPEAKER_06] John Madden who even at the time was a living cartoon character before he then literally became one

[02:39:26] [SPEAKER_02] Nicolas Cage is playing him basically in like the suit from the whale on loan yeah giving like what looks like a mad TV performance and I love Cage right this movie is by all accounts primarily about the video game about how name and likeness to the video everything I've heard is that like that is the main story

[02:39:47] [SPEAKER_06] it's certainly a big part of the movie and like John Mulaney is playing Trip Hawkins who's the like the guy from 3DO who like pitches him on the game

[02:39:55] [SPEAKER_05] are you kidding me I thought this was like this is how they won the 70s I think that there will be

[02:40:00] [SPEAKER_02] some of that I have heard I have heard from reliable people I believe there was a Radiolab episode about how that game came into being right it's an interesting story and I have heard that is the primary text that this movie was based on and yes it has right John Mulaney playing the founder of Electronic Arts Shane Gillis Sienna Miller Catherine Hahn just the most obvious cast in the world

[02:40:22] [SPEAKER_06] it was gonna be Will Ferrell Will Ferrell was gonna be Matt right yeah which makes a ton of sense makes a ton of sense yes it's just the thing with Cage is it's just like you're handing him lit firecrackers you know what I mean like it's like he's a good actor but now we're just kind of back to post long legs these directors being like do you want to cut loose and he's like sure you know I can do that

[02:40:41] [SPEAKER_02] doing like a long legs prequel or long legs is immortal yeah it's fast daddy long legs I love long legs I was into long legs I don't know if you want to go back to that well that announcement struck terror in my heart yeah I don't think there's any need to return to that

[02:40:56] [SPEAKER_06] are you a long legs fan I was when I saw it

[02:40:59] [SPEAKER_05] it was somewhat impacted by the fact that I watched it and the second I came out Trump got shot in Pennsylvania oh my god and I was just like holy shit and I immediately forgot all of long legs

[02:41:13] [SPEAKER_06] you know long legs just gets like photocopied over

[02:41:16] [SPEAKER_05] or I was like this will be the most memorable movie I've ever seen because it's the day that Trump got shot but instead it was like neither or

[02:41:25] [SPEAKER_02] I was at a wedding my dear friends Pat May and Ashley Warren two of the best people I know and Pat May Pat May Patrick May my dear friends Pat May and Anakin my dear friends Pat May and Anakin I wish them all the best he recently lost to Count Dooku nothing bad will happen but I was at their wedding don't worry about it that really is a beef with sand was at their wedding I was talking a lot about taxes this one

[02:41:54] [SPEAKER_02] someone ran up and just in like one burst went like Trump was shot there was a shooter at the White House correspondence dinner but Trump is safe oh that's more recent you cannot give me that don't do that that much information that quick in one sentence I understand wanting to get all the information out of one thing emotional rollercoaster

[02:42:13] [SPEAKER_06] yeah so the color of money

[02:42:17] [SPEAKER_03] we left off kind of where Eddie, Carmen and Vincent part ways

[02:42:21] [SPEAKER_06] yes right and he gets hustled it shatters his image I feel like and he basically

[02:42:26] [SPEAKER_05] half fires them yeah half yeah it's like a soft dumping sets them free yes

[02:42:33] [SPEAKER_02] right you actually don't need me anymore I'm doing you a favor but it's like

[02:42:38] [SPEAKER_05] don't look at me I'm disgusting

[02:42:39] [SPEAKER_06] you have the money go to Atlantic City but right that's exactly I feel like he's all confidence and now it's gone

[02:42:45] [SPEAKER_02] and the other part of it is him being like I fucked up I need to pull the eject lever like as quickly as I can I need to get out of here this thing has gotten its hooks into me more deeply than I thought

[02:43:00] [SPEAKER_05] and then this this movie turns into a sort of an advertisement for optometry because it turns out

[02:43:06] [SPEAKER_06] that a lot of his problems were just that he needed a prescription glass he needed to get the coolest prescription sunglasses in the world he looks so fucking cool

[02:43:15] [SPEAKER_05] he looks cool getting his eyes tested he does

[02:43:18] [SPEAKER_06] he really does he makes it all work for him it is like Thanos getting a power glove where he's like you don't understand

[02:43:25] [SPEAKER_05] I can read the newspaper now I wonder like how long he's been like I have no idea who's president I haven't seen an actual pool ball in clarity in 10 years

[02:43:38] [SPEAKER_06] do you think Fast Eddie votes I feel like he probably doesn't vote too much no I don't know how many things he does he was just like

[02:43:46] [SPEAKER_04] I was all in on Stevenson and when that didn't happen I checked out on the political process

[02:43:52] [SPEAKER_06] honest liberalism

[02:43:54] [SPEAKER_05] yeah and then he kind of it's just a bit of a wander it's a bit of a wander it's a really good montage

[02:43:59] [SPEAKER_06] like you mentioned it's a great montage of him getting his game back but it is I feel like actually without Cruz it's like a little like the energy's gone a little bit

[02:44:06] [SPEAKER_05] well this is where it should be a sports movie and the sports movie should end with game 7 of the world series or like the game that they and Newman has in other like this is not unlike Slopshot where the movie's culmination is I'm gonna take all my clothes off and skate around in circles you know like rather than we beat these guys and Color of Money is sort of like well there's the tournament there's Fast Eddie's kind of re-sorted he you know cause he beats no Tom Cruise

[02:44:36] [SPEAKER_05] beats Grady Fast Eddie gets to the semifinals against Vince or the finals against Vince and the crane shots

[02:44:43] [SPEAKER_02] of the pool the stadium I was gonna say pool hall but this like stadium with like fucking 40 tables and then craning down to from behind Fast Eddie's head just looking at like his Valhalla yeah

[02:44:57] [SPEAKER_05] and then all the like the behind the scenes stills the production stills of this movie where it's like a track that goes around like goddamn Big Thunder Mountain and then there will be like you know the pool tables are all up against one side and then everything else is is Dolly Track I was recently in Atlantic City um for what

[02:45:16] [SPEAKER_02] my birthday you went to Atlantic City for your birthday yeah baby I don't think you were relaying this to us no he told me really yeah

[02:45:23] [SPEAKER_08] where's this gambling text Borgata

[02:45:25] [SPEAKER_06] ocean okay Borgata was fully booked interesting Jerry Seinfeld was playing oh oh boy so went to the ocean gotta recommend the ocean really nice time I mean Atlantic City however not in the best

[02:45:38] [SPEAKER_03] David is making a two thumbs up smile

[02:45:41] [SPEAKER_05] everything's good haven't been to Atlantic City since Sean's fantasy's bachelor party and uh tell me everything about Sean fantasy's bachelor party that was where I discovered gasolina which is tequila and Red Bull or uh and we got one of Sean's uh family members to get bottle service at a nightclub

[02:46:00] [SPEAKER_06] now I've only met Sean's family once which was at the live show we did it is crazy when they all show up and you're like why does Sean not have a thick long you know what I mean

[02:46:11] [SPEAKER_02] like right do you remember this Griffin from the yes sorry my grandmother sounding very insane emails right now classic Griffin situation yeah um

[02:46:18] [SPEAKER_06] anyway like it's just funny that this movie's like we're gonna make it to Atlantic City having been to Atlantic City I'm like you don't want to make it there you need to leave Atlantic City like you can spend a night maybe two um but I guess it was it's like I think like Atlantic City I think was ruined by like plane travel basically right and like Indian casinos yeah where it's basically now it just became

[02:46:40] [SPEAKER_05] it's like well why would you want to go there you can go somewhere else well it's the same and now Vegas is being decimated by the fact that you don't have to go there to bet on sports among other things yeah

[02:46:49] [SPEAKER_06] yeah so what's gonna happen to these places I mean I guess what's happening to Atlantic City might happen to other places possibly

[02:46:56] [SPEAKER_02] is good old fashion American gambling about to collapse like are these prediction markets just like to your point I just hadn't considered this but like do people even bother to learn how to play poker not to be to be waxing poetic in

[02:47:10] [SPEAKER_05] their hands and like to study another man and be like okay

[02:47:13] [SPEAKER_02] this is sort of what this movie is about of like needing to basically like elevate these things to an art form and a psychological sort of exploration you know a game of people reading and everything and just as much

[02:47:29] [SPEAKER_05] of that I think it's like I know this is gonna sound really corny but it is a celebration of a certain kind of American third space that is disappearing yes Chris 100% and it is like

[02:47:41] [SPEAKER_06] we're talking about physical media video stores there's another one you know and I don't

[02:47:46] [SPEAKER_05] think in 20 or 30 years people are gonna care that this is what American bars looked like in 1986 right and you're just like okay so now you're like but I care

[02:47:53] [SPEAKER_02] you're sitting at home doing an IG live like betting $50 that Lady Gaga is gonna fart at the Grammy's like what what are we now right

[02:48:05] [SPEAKER_06] Griff that got me $4,000 I paid for my rent congrats to you and your family yeah right yes let's get rid of phone gambling and have more real gambling that's my take yeah right no more phone right phone gambling bad really bad real gambling let me David loves it do you actually are you a fan yes yeah but it's very good that I don't get to do it much

[02:48:30] [SPEAKER_05] yeah I only at the casino I really only play blackjack and it's just over really fast I not to brag I had an incredible night I made like

[02:48:38] [SPEAKER_06] 600 bucks where you go man

[02:48:40] [SPEAKER_02] I'm gonna say something on mic that I really just knowing we you know record this podcast a bit in advance I hope these are not famous last words I am so relieved that my father has not gotten into the prediction markets oh boy my father a former gambling addict who has stayed on the good side of that I was about to say right it's a long

[02:49:01] [SPEAKER_06] time it's in the right it's in the rear view his gambling day

[02:49:04] [SPEAKER_02] and like growing up we would go to a fucking you know a Super Bowl party or an Oscar party where you could like fill out a form and I didn't see it break him he didn't start sweating and going like oh fuck I'm remembering but I just feel like the the low bar for entry on the phone shit beyond just the prediction markets what they call uh you know

[02:49:25] [SPEAKER_06] frictionless gambling which

[02:49:26] [SPEAKER_02] sports betting was this whole fucking

[02:49:28] [SPEAKER_06] thing yeah that's right the other thing is I love gambling I don't care about sports gambling it never does much for me I love like the absolute coke rush of I put chips on numbers and maybe I won yes like I'm just like what you know like I just I it does something for me that drinking I don't know what are the other you know drugs these things have never done you know Ben you've seen me I have yeah

[02:49:52] [SPEAKER_03] you really go into a different mode

[02:49:54] [SPEAKER_06] yeah we should have someone on who it was I basically was like it was because my wife was like just do your bachelor party I turned 40 yeah she was like just do your bachelor party like you were gonna do it your friends Alex and Eric like just fucking go go gamble for a night one of the most incredible pod

[02:50:11] [SPEAKER_05] things I've ever podcasting moments I've ever witnessed in person was when we would go to Caesars in Vegas for NBA summer league which is where the NBA teams go and let their newly drafted players play in like exhibition tournament basically right it's also just an opportunity for everybody to gamble so I watched

[02:50:30] [SPEAKER_06] you're all chatting to sources and all that shit

[02:50:32] [SPEAKER_05] Bill Simmons his longtime podcast co-host on Sunday nights cousin Sal great cousin Sal super chef Dave Chang and Bill Simmons buddy Joe House the great the great Joe House on the back end like the the fumes of what was like basically an all night gambling run all night blackjack run where House and Chang had only left the blackjack table to go get off strip gumbo in Vegas and then came back like strip gumbo it's not 10 or 11 a.m. to do like

[02:51:02] [SPEAKER_05] a long long podcast about the layers of gambling that they participated in last night that involved like Chang winning a bone white chip that needed like his social security number to cash out and they're all betting an alabaster not only on their cards

[02:51:19] [SPEAKER_07] made of bone

[02:51:20] [SPEAKER_05] but they're betting on other guys at the table where they're like yeah I'm I'm doing like layered

[02:51:25] [SPEAKER_06] bets on essentially staking this guy's next thing even though he's not asking right right right right but he's hot yeah yes I like when you can do that in craps like I like when you start making bets for the you know the the the groupiers pit bosses whatever you know like that's fun no I but I play

[02:51:42] [SPEAKER_05] every blackjack craps like those are yeah you like it go you like it fast you do not like long poker nights

[02:51:49] [SPEAKER_06] no I enjoy poker but right you're impatient is that fair to say I guess so I think I also have a good metronome that's at least what everyone was while who was watching me that night was saying of like I'm pretty good at being like I think I'm done and like you know

[02:52:03] [SPEAKER_05] you're an incredible flake yeah such a credible

[02:52:06] [SPEAKER_06] that's me um yeah I'm the flaky one

[02:52:09] [SPEAKER_03] all right let's close

[02:52:10] [SPEAKER_06] out yes talk really rude

[02:52:12] [SPEAKER_02] thing to throw at Ben backhand

[02:52:14] [SPEAKER_06] I'm joking

[02:52:15] [SPEAKER_02] how dare you imply that Ben is flaky and late to records and fills the office with too many toys

[02:52:22] [SPEAKER_06] I just think this is flaky no one fills the office with too many toys Ben by the way has built a star destroyer sized cabinet behind him sound insulation wait is that part of the argument this is Griffin's new argument

[02:52:36] [SPEAKER_03] for bringing a bunch of like random crap into the office that is helping to insulate

[02:52:41] [SPEAKER_02] I need to once again remind you we have very few Funko Pops in this office

[02:52:47] [SPEAKER_06] it is not I know I love saying Funko Pops my chosen expression I know it gets

[02:52:52] [SPEAKER_02] your goat you know I just think they're low quality sure sure in every sense I've never owned one the plastic tolerance is terrible the designs are uninspired right right it kind of

[02:53:02] [SPEAKER_06] they kind of pump those out but if someone made a Funko Pop of you you would want it

[02:53:05] [SPEAKER_02] well maybe that's why I dislike them because it feels sometimes like they have notably made an effort to not make one of me feel like we could get some

[02:53:13] [SPEAKER_06] podcaster Funko Pops made

[02:53:14] [SPEAKER_02] really I don't because I I mean you're forgetting that the peak of the tick I was on like fucking phone calls with like the Sony licensing department where's the pop and they were making bullshit

[02:53:25] [SPEAKER_06] excuses to me alright okay we gotta wrap this up so the the end of this movie is it's interesting because like it's what you were saying about Slapshot it's like there is the triumph is is fake yeah Eddie beats Vince but Vince was basically

[02:53:42] [SPEAKER_05] throwing it because he was laying bets against himself

[02:53:46] [SPEAKER_06] comes to the hotel room afterwards is like here's your cut like I dumped that game like but I'm gonna win a bunch of money later Eddie forfeits the game like the next game because it

[02:53:57] [SPEAKER_03] just fucks with this confidence again

[02:53:59] [SPEAKER_06] and gives Vince the money back and is like you know let's do it's like Rocky vs. Apollo Creed in private like let's just face off for real it's beautiful I'm back it's the best yeah I mean like everyone's walking out happy right I think everybody's walking out happy but I think a lot of people are walking out being like what just happened sure you think like maybe the movie needs the triumphant final game or something

[02:54:21] [SPEAKER_05] or I think that it's part of it becoming a little bit of a solo album in the back half of the movie and less about like his like there's so much potential in his relationships to Vince and Carmen and even with Janelle and even with these other background characters that you're I think in another kind of movie you'd probably want if not resolution like development or deepening with that

[02:54:43] [SPEAKER_02] I think you're right that it is it is an excellent ending taken on its own but it undercuts the movie a little bit in that it does start to make you feel like all of that was just a distraction and it's not like I only want this to be a mentor mentee movie but it does sort of deflate that having been so much of the engine up until that point

[02:55:04] [SPEAKER_05] yeah and it's where you know you can watch this and you kind of walk out of it and you have maybe like a thousand different interpretations of what it means but because it is a little bit of a like I can do this with a look or I can do this with two words there isn't like a feeling of and then Eddie Felson went on to win 10 championships or like became the the most respected liquor salesman on the eastern seaboard you know I there is no there there is there is there is a kind of it's a vibe

[02:55:33] [SPEAKER_05] not a resolution

[02:55:34] [SPEAKER_02] yeah and in a way I respect I like that the ending the ending is a little bit haunted and that it's like is it good that this guy is playing fool again where does this go it feels about as good as it's gonna get for him yeah and the

[02:55:49] [SPEAKER_06] original title for this movie was as good as it gets as good as it gets for him I mean like look when you compare the ending of this movie to the hustler yes you're like hey this is a bouncy ending like this is great

[02:56:00] [SPEAKER_02] but the ending of the hustler is the absolute um it is them making good on the promise of the setup right the entire movie is this existential journey of this guy trying to figure himself out and he doesn't like the answer he finds but the movie is an answer to the question that it poses well it's also like there's

[02:56:21] [SPEAKER_05] this weird like it's not a one last job movie it's a I'm getting back into bank robbing movie and none of the people in this movie are saying what I'd love to do is get the hell out of pool halls they're all like I have found my preferred environment that's why I like it it's not a

[02:56:37] [SPEAKER_06] hectoring movie about like this is a bad life I'm like I know it's a bad life I don't care I mean in

[02:56:41] [SPEAKER_02] your parlance David this is this is an imperfect movie but it is like drugs it is unbelievable to watch

[02:56:49] [SPEAKER_06] yes

[02:56:49] [SPEAKER_02] yeah

[02:56:50] [SPEAKER_06] I think that's Marty like I think a different filmmaker would insert a more moral slant to it or insist on a more maybe like conventional arc to it

[02:57:00] [SPEAKER_05] I think that that's a nice button at the end for Newman it's such an easy like and give this guy the Oscar moment but the last 30 minutes of the movie is if the first hour of it feels like coke it's the last 30 minutes are kind of a come down and the last 30 minutes are a little jittery and you don't know who to trust and you don't know if life's gonna work out and it's kind of like a it's more of a feeling than it is like a statement but I like the feeling a lot

[02:57:29] [SPEAKER_03] yeah I agree with that now here's you're coming down and the screenplay for scum apprentice doesn't feel like it's necessarily going in the right direction yeah

[02:57:38] [SPEAKER_02] yeah here's the question for you guys to run through this exercise this is kind of one of the most famous gold watch Oscar wins right they give it to him the year after they give him the lifetime achievement award he doesn't show up to the ceremony there's a lot of sliding doors of like obviously they should have given it to him for the verdict when they don't do that it feels like they give him the lifetime because they know they kind of fucked up even though Gandhi was undeniable and then this feels like it

[02:58:08] [SPEAKER_02] served to them on a platter it is fascinating to look at the fact that I think he won the national board of review for best actor and zero other precursors he doesn't win the golden globe this year obviously there were less things in 86 huh who won the golden globe I believe it was did Hoskins win I think he did I think Hoskins really kind of ran the table

[02:58:28] [SPEAKER_06] yeah because Hoskins is certainly right the critical favorite that year yes for Mona Lisa yeah he won the golden globe that's

[02:58:36] [SPEAKER_02] what's fascinating is he always talked about like I love

[02:58:39] [SPEAKER_06] had Newman maybe like already won golden globes I can look that up like you know it's possible the globes didn't care

[02:58:44] [SPEAKER_02] but it does when you look at it feel like it must have been a little surprising on Oscar night right because the momentum was not clearly behind him even though he's Hollywood royalty and this thing was a hit

[02:58:56] [SPEAKER_06] I know I would need to read more about it of like what was the press drumbeat at that point of kind of like guys Newman's up again you're not gonna fucking do this again are you but also

[02:59:07] [SPEAKER_02] he showed up to the ceremony for the lifetime achievement year when that was still part of the main broadcast and I think there was a fulfillment moment there even if it's like this is embarrassing that we've never given this guy competitive totally Huskins and Mona Lisa is the better performance right

[02:59:24] [SPEAKER_06] taken on its own incredibly good performance so sure but I do love this performance I do

[02:59:30] [SPEAKER_00] too who beats

[02:59:31] [SPEAKER_06] him the nobody's fool year

[02:59:32] [SPEAKER_00] oh that's a good

[02:59:34] [SPEAKER_06] question this is my question

[02:59:35] [SPEAKER_05] imagine we wait that long because it's also less embarrassing that it's but then it becomes dire if you're waiting till nobody's fool you're like it doesn't matter if Daniel Day Lewis

[02:59:47] [SPEAKER_06] Tom Hanks beat him for far

[02:59:48] [SPEAKER_00] but that's the second I don't

[02:59:51] [SPEAKER_06] think there's a reason Tom Hanks won

[02:59:53] [SPEAKER_02] no universe in which he wasn't gonna win I mean I think that would have

[02:59:57] [SPEAKER_06] been good and nobody's fool but that's not a movie where you're like well that's one of Newman's best either I love that performance yeah he's good yeah I mean like he's incredible in Road to Perdition which is his last nom and that's Chris Cooper beating him sure but that would have been the true gold watch of like you old guy like you know you you did 15 great minutes in a supporting role like here's your Oscar I mean like I don't know I mean like he should have won earlier like I said he lost like you know

[03:00:27] [SPEAKER_06] he loses for the hustler to Maximilian Schell for Judgment at Nuremberg it's a pretty good movie and Schell's amazing in it obviously Paul Newman back then is young like he his first nom is for Cat on a Hot Tin Roof he loses to David Niven for Separate Tables I'm not gonna litigate that right now like I don't know like I mean like not right now I can't do that we're at three hours

[03:00:51] [SPEAKER_02] I also think his brick is interesting but maybe not entirely successful is that a wild take that movie

[03:00:56] [SPEAKER_06] stinks yeah

[03:00:57] [SPEAKER_02] that movie is like

[03:00:58] [SPEAKER_06] a neutered you know version of the movie of the play you know and then like yeah he loses to Poitier he loses to Steiger those are pretty you know and then he loses for Absence of Malice the year like a few years before this to Henry Fonda for On Golden Pond but like was he not nominated for Luke I know he's nominated for Luke he loses to Steiger that's the Steiger

[03:01:22] [SPEAKER_05] was he nominated for HUD or no

[03:01:25] [SPEAKER_06] nominated for HUD lost to Sidney Poitier

[03:01:27] [SPEAKER_02] and he's not nominated for Butch Cassidy or Sting Redford gets the Sting nomination Redford gets the Sting nomination Redford's only acting nom which is wild

[03:01:38] [SPEAKER_06] and like you know I mean obviously Newman's great in those movies but they're not like demanding in the same I don't know whatever they're not Oscar-y performances I guess yeah I don't know I mean he's one of the best so he should have an Oscar he got an Oscar for a good movie it's funny that Ben Scorsese wins an Oscar for The Departed and also that has the gold watch sort of asterisk put on it even though The Departed's incredible and it kind of kicks off

[03:02:04] [SPEAKER_05] like a whole new late period

[03:02:06] [SPEAKER_06] for him right but like that is a narrative around Scorsese a lot I mean and like doesn't he direct Ellen Burst into a win right after The Exorcist yeah right which is another one where it's kind of like damn does she rock like did we fuck up not giving it to her for the I don't know

[03:02:19] [SPEAKER_01] yeah

[03:02:19] [SPEAKER_06] yeah what are you looking at I feel like you're trying to find something

[03:02:22] [SPEAKER_02] no no I was just like I said the Redford thing and I was like did I just say something that's false but it's true it is insane either of them got nominated for A Few Good Men Not A Few Good Men All The President's Men Did he get nominated for Candidate no no that's a wild one best actor in a leading role that is it his first nomination is 1974 for The Sting

[03:02:51] [SPEAKER_02] and then it's two best director nominations best picture nomination for quiz show and honorary award in 2000 okay right

[03:03:00] [SPEAKER_06] yeah yeah yeah I mean look he didn't attend so there's no speech so yeah I have no like right there's no big narrative on this was he filming

[03:03:11] [SPEAKER_02] something or did he probably was he like

[03:03:13] [SPEAKER_07] I went last year I don't need to go again

[03:03:17] [SPEAKER_06] yeah and he's you know continues to make good movies Robert Wise right Robert Wise accepts on his behalf and then I think it's like Betty Davis

[03:03:29] [SPEAKER_02] is also on stage this was Marie was sending us the clip yesterday where you said like God we really did used to let people just be so fucking old Robert Wise looks ancient but I looked it up and Betty Davis was 79 in that clip and then I texted everyone a photo of Susan Sarandon today and they're the same age yeah yeah it's just like old people used to be

[03:03:51] [SPEAKER_05] very different well is Cruz as old now as Newman was when he did Color of Money has to be older right yeah

[03:03:57] [SPEAKER_06] yeah for seven other occasions like this and then Betty Davis goes Robert for two minutes let me say something about you then starts talking about Robert Wise's career and she's like Robert Wise is the winner of two Oscars himself for The Sound of Music and West Side Story and Robert Wise goes thank you and she says that's right and the speech is over

[03:04:27] [SPEAKER_06] they do not mention Paul Newman again would they play people off I mean yeah they would and I think also I think the producer is probably like this is not going to go in a good direction

[03:04:38] [SPEAKER_02] Tom Cruise is in fact older today than Paul Newman was when they filmed the Color of Money by like a year or two

[03:04:44] [SPEAKER_06] pretty cool

[03:04:44] [SPEAKER_02] yeah I mean it's one of my favorite moments in television history is when they had Mickey Rooney present Best Supporting Actress at the SAG Awards and he got up there and treated it as if he was receiving a Lifetime Achievement award he like made his seventh wife stand up in the crowd and made everyone applaud her he like went through like it's it's a 15 minute and the nominees are um

[03:05:10] [SPEAKER_07] Judy Dench and Chocolat

[03:05:12] [SPEAKER_06] let's play the box office game yeah October 17th 1986 this movie's opening number two okay 6.3 million dollars it makes 52 domestic

[03:05:20] [SPEAKER_02] which is pretty good Scorsese doesn't have a movie hit 100 million domestic until The Aviator but this is certainly the most straightforward conventional hit he has had since Taxi Driver it gets

[03:05:33] [SPEAKER_06] four Oscar noms supporting actress from Mary Elizabeth Masternitonia who is very good she loses to Diane Weiss for Hand and Her Sisters that's a pretty deserving win great win uh adapted screenplay art direction which is kind of a cool nom because it's such a trashy thing

[03:05:49] [SPEAKER_05] and I also fully agree with yeah there's just like they get like the tile floors right it's perfect

[03:05:56] [SPEAKER_06] it gets pretty good reviews Ebert was kind of soft on it he gave it two and a half stars I mean I think a lot of people were basically like you know Marty you can do better you know yeah I was interested

[03:06:07] [SPEAKER_05] going back and reading how tepid people were I was kind of like Pauline Kale

[03:06:11] [SPEAKER_02] got all over it but Pauline Kale was bested by the ladies doing a lot of that it feels very akin to The Untouchables to me where you read those reviews and you're like it's more summer popcorn fluff and I'm like this thing is directed by Brian De Palma it has costumes by like Armani it has a Morricone score I recently found out it's got David Mammoth dialogue we didn't know

[03:06:32] [SPEAKER_05] how fucking good we had it I recently found out that my dad I don't know I don't think it was when it was released I think it was in a video guide and this is an opinion that he never shared with me or I blocked out it's like Godfather 2 cash grab

[03:06:46] [SPEAKER_02] this is the thing I'm like even something like Untouchables which I'm not arguing is one of the great American movies you're like if this is what popcorn movies were we'd be living in a perpetual golden age no one could complain about anything we would not be gambling on sports on our phones right I would guess that part of the energy of the reviews at the time were is this now the turning point in Scorsese's career does Scorsese become just a studio system hired gone

[03:07:16] [SPEAKER_02] is he movie stars just want him to lend a little credibility to their passion projects and so once he follows this up with like two of his most personal movies and two of his purest artistic statements it does feel like almost immediately the retrospective view of this film gets better

[03:07:36] [SPEAKER_05] I love this part about his career is that talking about it in the moment of when like looking at it in the moment of when it happened versus as part of a series of films about decaying masculinity it just completely changes the sort of circumstances or the context in which you view it

[03:07:51] [SPEAKER_02] well and also to invoke this like one conversation I had with him on set where he was around all of the time but there was a moment where I responded to a thing he said and he clearly was like you know ball you know movies and his assistant was like Marty I think we have like 40 minutes before the next shot if you want to go back and he's like no no I want to talk to this kid and then just talk to me for 20 minutes was one of the greatest experiences of my life it was unbelievable but what was fascinating about it was he was just

[03:08:21] [SPEAKER_02] sort of talking about this of like the narratives around me were this and this is how I felt you know like I was being discussed in this way and everyone was sort of like pocket watching my career moves and like I was a guy struggling and he even called out like you know amongst the movie brats I never had the seismic hit I'm doing

[03:08:50] [SPEAKER_02] color of money I'm doing cape fear and these guys are like Marty selling out and it's like right I didn't even have Carrie you know I didn't have Godfather like not only did I not have an Oscar win but I didn't have a straight down the middle blockbuster that made me a safe bet for studios where I can always default back to what if I gave you another one of those 10 years ago

[03:09:20] [SPEAKER_02] view himself as obviously I'm minted and I'm undeniable and you especially think about him in the 80s when it was this weird battle between people being like obviously Martin Scorsese is the greatest filmmaker alive and also he kind of can't catch a break and we give him a hard time every time I think even

[03:09:38] [SPEAKER_05] with some of the more recent efforts where it's like yeah he did like he got to make Irishman and Flower Moon but had to do them for tech companies and had to like you know like there wasn't there hasn't always been just like a Nolan in a studio and right yeah I mean

[03:10:07] [SPEAKER_05] we did but like yeah he's the best

[03:10:11] [SPEAKER_06] number one of the box office griffin is a film we've covered one of the biggest hits of 1986 we covered it on our patreon we covered it on our patreon it's one of the biggest hits of 1986 would love to know what Chris thinks of it

[03:10:22] [SPEAKER_02] oh it's Crocodile Dundee the first one the first

[03:10:26] [SPEAKER_05] I literally may not have seen this since 1987 yeah did you like it then I did it kind of rolls got a big knife yeah yeah

[03:10:33] [SPEAKER_06] number two is color money number three is a film we will cover one day if we cover this director I think it's her directorial debut

[03:10:41] [SPEAKER_02] is it a spherous nope it's not a penny marshall it is it's jumping jack flash jumping jack flash we will let's say

[03:10:49] [SPEAKER_06] we will cover this we'll do penny marshall barring catastrophe have you seen whoopie goldberg jumping jack flash packer

[03:10:56] [SPEAKER_05] don't think I

[03:10:57] [SPEAKER_06] saw jumping jack flash I saw eddie well eddie good that's a sports movie that's that's top jumping jack flash very strange film you haven't seen haven't seen very odd yeah excited to

[03:11:07] [SPEAKER_02] watch sure jonathan price big jonathan price part right that was the whole thing where they got him to do a screening at metrograph yes he was coming to do a screening for listen up philip with ARP and they were like we're fucking showing jumping jack flash perlin was like swim by

[03:11:24] [SPEAKER_09] let me get a

[03:11:24] [SPEAKER_02] print and put it on the other screen and make him do an intro for that one as well on the same and he's like I guess I'm in this I don't remember

[03:11:31] [SPEAKER_06] number four is a film from a great auteur who's you just invoked one of his movies your dad thought his movie was a cash grab this is a later effort from him is this Tucker not Tucker correct director is this

[03:11:45] [SPEAKER_02] Peggy Sue Peggy Sue got married a movie I like a lot not a bad movie I used to bump on and it's really kind of warmed its way

[03:11:52] [SPEAKER_05] did Tucker ever sniff top 10 box office yeah Tucker was such a bomb

[03:11:56] [SPEAKER_02] that's a good movie but that's also a movie where it bombing only helps its legacy like it feels like in the text of the movie that the movie itself also can't work

[03:12:06] [SPEAKER_06] now number five is a film I don't know it's an old guy comedy like I've heard of it but I've

[03:12:11] [SPEAKER_02] never seen it it's not a lemon math out no is it like it's an old guy is it a team returning no it's just

[03:12:21] [SPEAKER_06] two really famous old actors I mean they've made movies together I guess but

[03:12:27] [SPEAKER_05] Hume Cronin

[03:12:28] [SPEAKER_06] no it's a really great actor these are big famous Hollywood actors they're old now old as fuck well I guess they're still what's the milieu what are these old guys doing they're being gangsters they got hats on and they got guns wise guys

[03:12:44] [SPEAKER_02] it's called tough guys and it's Kirk Douglas and the other one is Burt Lancaster yes

[03:12:51] [SPEAKER_08] okay

[03:12:51] [SPEAKER_06] and I guess like they were like they made a lot of westerns together and then they made like seven days in May yeah but I mean I don't know if audiences in the 80s were like

[03:12:58] [SPEAKER_00] Kirk and Burt back together yeah who directed that

[03:13:03] [SPEAKER_06] let's find out have you seen Jeff Cano it's Jeff Cano yeah wow

[03:13:07] [SPEAKER_02] that is crazy the director of Revenge of the Nerds that's why I was just like it was a weird kind of like does he want to level up did Kirk Douglas go to Canoe and just say I love what you did with the

[03:13:17] [SPEAKER_04] Nerds

[03:13:17] I love Booger

[03:13:19] [SPEAKER_04] I love when they stole those panties ogre really what a villain hey R.I.P. Ogre he just passed

[03:13:25] [SPEAKER_06] away number six is Children of a Lesser God a film I watched recently because I'm trying to watch 86 movies that is kind of I mean like it's kind of what you think it is but Marlee Madeline is pretty darn great now number seven Top Gun so Cruise has got two two movies up here number eight is Deadly Friend the insane Wes Craven movie where someone throws a basketball through a woman's whole head it's like a

[03:13:54] [SPEAKER_06] movie where he like he kind of made like a paranoid like kind of like romantic you know team and they were like why do no basketballs get thrown through anyone's heads in this movie and he's like what don't worry we're filming

[03:14:05] [SPEAKER_00] some pickups

[03:14:06] [SPEAKER_06] yeah not a great movie number nine is Stand By Me a film I've never loved but obviously a classic I don't know if you care

[03:14:16] [SPEAKER_05] I'm too young for it maybe like it was not perfect time for me I was like yeah

[03:14:20] [SPEAKER_06] like nine ten I've seen it like one and a half times but I think it totally works like kind of undeniably yeah and then number ten is That's Life what's that again

[03:14:30] [SPEAKER_05] that's life Mel Brooks no

[03:14:33] [SPEAKER_06] Blake Edwards so yeah it's Jack Lemon and Julie Andrews made independently by Edwards using his own money have you guys ever done Blank Check Blake Edwards so we had him on a bracket once and we discouraged listeners from

[03:14:48] [SPEAKER_02] voting for him he's made like 35 movies and the last 15 are rough yeah we basically we had one year the great I had the conceptual idea what if we did a March Madness bracket where one side is all Oscar winners for best director and one side is all Razzie winners for worst director

[03:15:08] [SPEAKER_06] because you got like Costner in there Prince there's weird Razzie winners Verhoeven there were interesting people in there but to fill it

[03:15:17] [SPEAKER_02] out we had Blake Edwards it truly we could not fill out the bracket unless Blake Edwards was in there so we basically messaged to people by technicality we had to put him in here don't vote for him don't break this yeah for a movie called Sunset

[03:15:34] [SPEAKER_06] the Bruce Willis James Garner movie is what he won his Razzie for

[03:15:38] [SPEAKER_02] like it's just insane that Blake Edwards directed fully three Pink Panther movies after Sellers died yes people forget that he took three stabs at that that's like species quattro right

[03:15:50] you're like

[03:15:51] [SPEAKER_06] Pink Panther his last movie was Son of the Pink Panther with Roberto Benigni but then there's like there's the clip show ones where they're like Cluso so he's around the corner there's a clip show

[03:16:02] [SPEAKER_02] one and then there's a Ted Wasp one like Ted Wasp from Soap was you revealed to also be a son of Cluso at the end I think

[03:16:10] [SPEAKER_06] is that curse I think yeah

[03:16:12] [SPEAKER_02] and trail is the clip show

[03:16:14] [SPEAKER_06] trail is the clip show one

[03:16:14] [SPEAKER_02] trail is like he's here somewhere and they open a door and they show you outtakes from one of the earlier

[03:16:21] [SPEAKER_04] movies you know people used to suck it's so weird that it's like repressions by the eye but like that's totally fine it was great

[03:16:29] [SPEAKER_06] so dead I mean like it's true like we're like god shit used to be so much better we used to make TV and then you like would watch TV shows where they're like ah I'm having memories of my own and they would just do a clip show like there's there's the Star Trek where Riker has like memory syndrome right

[03:16:59] [SPEAKER_05] thank you for having me thank you sorry we went so long I'm so excited that I got to do this with you guys in person open range it felt like we were a great movie but like I was reaching across the void on zoom so I'm really glad to have done it in person

[03:17:11] [SPEAKER_02] they're just not the same

[03:17:12] [SPEAKER_06] hopefully we drafted together last year on stage hopefully we'll draft together on the big picture sometime

[03:17:17] [SPEAKER_02] at the watch people should listen to the watch yeah anything else you want to plug

[03:17:23] [SPEAKER_05] no I think the watch the big picture the rewatchables I make appearances on wait a second where I discuss the news is that Jason's show yeah

[03:17:31] [SPEAKER_06] enjoying that and we gotta get Jason on again yeah we sure been too long yeah he left the basketball text thread I'm in in fury because I had too many Pistons fans did it really I thought you left that thread or did you just mute it I take breaks from it I take mental health breaks from it there's too many people in it but Jason you know he was just like too many fucking Pistons fans yeah we're not even playing the Pistons yet

[03:17:58] [SPEAKER_02] yeah but thank you CR thank you for having me thank you all for listening please remember to rate review and subscribe next week is the last temptation of Christ assuming new releases don't move into those slots yes

[03:18:11] [SPEAKER_03] correct yes guest Jamel Bowie also we should mention today over on our Patreon releasing an episode where we're pairing New York stories and amazing stories

[03:18:22] [SPEAKER_02] oh so yeah as teed up in this yes the stories bud yes are you guys going to do bad we're definitely

[03:18:29] [SPEAKER_06] going to do a music video episode

[03:18:31] [SPEAKER_02] so much kind of ancillary stuff that's actually worth talking about that we're still strategizing how to do it but I think yes

[03:18:39] [SPEAKER_03] but we have a special guest that maybe we shouldn't announce because it isn't locked in

[03:19:01] [SPEAKER_02] I feel like I didn't hit it oh oh oh oh oh oh

[03:19:09] [SPEAKER_04] guys that was awesome

[03:19:13] [SPEAKER_03] Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims our executive producer is me Ben Hosley our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas and our associate producer is AJ McKeon this show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeon and Alan Smithy research by JJ Birch our theme song is by Lane Montgomery and the great American novel with additional music by Alex Mitchell artwork by Joe Bowen Ollie Moss and Pat Reynolds our production assistant is

[03:19:43] [SPEAKER_03] Minik special thanks to David Cho Jordan Fish and Nate Patterson for their production help head over to blankcheckpod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit join subscribe to our weekly newsletter checkbook on Substack this podcast is created and produced by blankcheck productions