The Dark Knight

[00:00:01] Blank Check with Griffin and David, Blank Check with Griffin and David Don't know what to say or to expect All you need to know is that the name of the show is Blank Check What gives you the right? What's the difference between you and me? I'm not podcasting!

[00:00:25] I mean that is my favorite line in the whole fucking movie Hi everybody, my name's Griffin Newman I'm not wearing hockey pads I'm not podcast pants I'm not wearing podcast pads My name's Griffin Newman David Sims here It's a podcast called Blank Check with Griffin and David

[00:00:40] We're hashtag the two friends Yes, we're not wearing hockey pants Neither of us are wearing hockey pants, I can confirm that Pads, it's pads Pants No he says pads Pants That doesn't make any sense, the other thing is hockey pants Oh you're right, it's pads

[00:00:56] Why would they be pants? They just wear regular pants Well they don't Well you know If you saw a person walking down the street wearing hockey pants You wouldn't go normal pants I don't know, people wear a lot of crazy things What is this casual Friday?

[00:01:12] Wearing hockey pants? What if they were in a hockey arena? I always thought it was hockey pants I know I think a lot of people do but you know why? Delivered a little low True You know? Yeah No what did you think I was gonna say?

[00:01:29] You were homie-stupid No, what? Of course not No, the way he says it I'm no more wearing hockey pants I'm not wearing hockey pants I'm not wearing hockey pants People are loving this so far Great, people love this podcast it's called Blank Check with Griffin and David

[00:01:47] It is about filmographies, directors Who have had massive success over their career And have given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy films they want And sometimes those checks clear Sure Sometimes they bounce baby It's amazing about the films of Christopher Nolan Yes

[00:02:06] It's called The Pod Knight Cast Yes And today we're talking about his most famous film His most successful film For sure And one could argue the biggest movie of the 21st century That's what we were discussing I think, yeah, in terms of impact

[00:02:19] Four movies this century have outgrossed it I think in terms of the intersection between critical Respectability, cultural cachet Mainstream popularity, staying power and Financial growths, it's the one I think it's the one I think it's the defining movie of our times For Better or For Worse Yes

[00:02:37] The movie is called Both I would say by the way For Better and For Worse I agree It's a complicated movie And its legacy is really messy now Kind of like, you know, we did the Matrix There's a lot of movies we cover that are like this Yeah

[00:02:50] Sometimes Sometimes good movies Get bad by bad people Sure, yeah Sometimes bad people make good movies bad Uh, okay That's what I was trying to say Anyway, hi Movies called The Dark Knight Uh, The Dark Knight I always thought it was The Duck Knight

[00:03:06] Yeah, but there's no Duck Knight I thought it was Hockey Pants and Duck Knight Uh, this is of course the second Bartman movie Yes, Bartman's back Bartman's back But this time Who's he gonna face? Richard T. Joker Great, great voice Thank you Yeah Uh, yep

[00:03:24] Why not laughing more? Oh, God I'm Richard T. Joker We're here to record what we know is gonna be a long episode And we're starting just with nothing Hot guns of water using? We're starting with the air in the potato chip bag You know

[00:03:43] We're leading with the air It's the opposite of the Hanukkah story We're like, we don't have enough oil to last for eight nights And then in fact, correct We don't even have oil for one night We try to light the first candle and we don't have anything

[00:03:54] Right, we are Right, we're like, we've got this huge bucket of oil We try to light the candles, nothing's going on It's a dry wick Not to be confused with John Wick Dry wick is his half-brother This film comes out in 2008 And sort of breaks the cold Yeah

[00:04:14] No, you're right If it comes a black hole, everything gets sucked into the dark night That's true And nine years later, we're still feeling that kind of That pull, I would say It had been a while though, you know, and it was actually nice

[00:04:25] To come back to it Because it's been a few years since I watched this one Yeah, same here So much has changed A lot has changed Like, it's like you got dark night Then the after effects of dark night for a few years Yeah

[00:04:38] Then that kind of thing Is like, you know, it's like You're like, wow, it's like I'm watching a movie From like a thousand years ago It really does feel like we've gone through like Four different shifts in mainstream film culture since then And also Warner Brothers Studios

[00:04:51] The week that we're recording this episode This will come out later The week that we're recording it The story came out that Warner Brothers said They knew that the story was going to be a little bit more More like a little bit more

[00:05:02] More like a little bit more More like a little bit more More like a little bit more More like a little bit more Warner Brothers said they no longer want to work with Outdoor directors Who will demand final cut That's right Those jerks

[00:05:16] Right, they said the only two exceptions Are Nolan and Eastwood Those are the only two guys in the back lot Who they will let do what they want I only saw the headline I didn't realize that That's you know How are you supposed to put up with that

[00:05:29] Even if you're a Christopher Nolan You know Obviously it's nice that they give you money to make your movie He's the one guy that given the check too And given full rein too And Eastwood because he's 900 years old He's an oak tree that's grown in their studio.

[00:05:41] Also, Clint Eastwood delivers you a movie on time under budget. Yeah. You're like with a star in it that more often than not makes a shit ton of money. I mean Clint Eastwood is like weirdly one of those bankable names in Hollywood.

[00:05:53] And if Clint Eastwood movie bombs, it'll make back its like money on like airplane rentals. Exactly. Like his budgets are low enough and they're the kind of movies that people want to like get from Red Box or watch on a plane or like in a hotel room.

[00:06:06] Like I'm looking at his direct. I mean he's like Jersey Boys was a flop. I guess yeah, but it made forty seven million on a forty dollar forty million dollar budget. I actually completely forgot until just now that he directed a Jersey Boys. No kidding.

[00:06:19] You forgot the movie existed. You forgot he directed it and you know and that got the Frankie Valley ever lived. That's how bad it was in a race Frankie Valley from the time Joe Pesci. Yeah, and that came out the same year that he released American Sniper

[00:06:33] the fourth biggest movie in the history of Warner Brothers as a studio. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. There you go. That's the thing if you look at Warner Brothers like top films now it's like five Nolans and Eastwood and a couple Harry Potter's.

[00:06:46] Oh and now I think fucking BVS and Suicide Squad. Exactly they got the DC Universe but you know even like J Edgar beat its budget. Yeah. Like these movies nobody saw. Yeah. Like changeling. Oh no that didn't actually beat its budget. All right fine. Anyway changeling is bad.

[00:07:05] It's almost like an 85 year old guy made a movie about like the women's experience you know in the turn of the century. Yeah. And how tough that was for her. It's almost like what happens when that happens. I remember reading an interview with Eastwood when changeling came out

[00:07:22] where he was talking about why he cast Angelina Jolie and he said when you look at people from that time period they all had faces back then Angelina Jolie looks like someone from the 30s because she's got a real face.

[00:07:32] It's like no one in the 30s looked like Angelina Jolie. I understand the big point he tried to make. She's a movie star that's all he really means. Right. She kind of looks like Ava Gardner or whatever. I mean what I don't know what the fucking story is.

[00:07:46] But Angelina Jolie is so extreme she's like a crossbreed dog do you know what I'm saying? She's like a pug where it's like this isn't like physically sustainable. You mean she's like a pugil. Right. She's like a pugil.

[00:07:57] But like yeah right where it's like you breed enough like French Bull dogs and then. They're like this is like a wonderfully cute creature but eventually like it's not going to be able to breathe or whatever like fucked it up so much.

[00:08:07] Enough generations of bizarrely pretty people had to keep fucking for generation after generation to get to the point where we had Angelina Jolie. Well I think it's more like if it kept going we'd have a problem like Angelina Jolie is a very nice and interesting.

[00:08:22] Well let's look at Jolie's kids with Brad Pitt that might be. They're gorgeous. Maybe they can't breathe. Maybe they can't breathe. Maybe they're snouts are too flat. That's enough of that. My God. Cut it all out Ben. Sully though. You said the best movie ever made.

[00:08:37] I rewatched it so good. I rewatched it. Have you rewatched it? Was I forced water landing? I've seen Sully. Which we've done in June. Is it July or June he says? I think he says June. July. That's the last line of the film.

[00:08:49] The last line of the movie. Talk about a blackout. Oh my God. Talk about a blackout. Talk about Aaron Eckhart in this film. Yes. Good segue. The dark night. Yes. He plays Michael J. Too face. Harvey Dent. Not to be confused with Michael K. Bain. Sure. He's right.

[00:09:08] Is that the name you're staying consistent? I fucking hate this. Shut up. Just be quiet. See now he's revved up Ben. Maybe it was like I'm tired. I'm all tired. I haven't even taken a sip of my coffee yet. Ready for how I am. I'm going to get.

[00:09:24] I'm going to get twisted. He has to do it. Good cup of coffee. How you doing there? Oh wait a second. Oh God. Wait a second. He's so hyped up. Riffin. Glow. I just shit my pants. Dammit. Who's going to clean that up?

[00:09:47] Am I the one that cleaned it up? The gorgeous ladies of wrestling are going to clean it up. Yeah. Available to watch now on Netflix. Now no one even remembers the big picture. Glow is coming out this week. 17 Netflix original that come out since.

[00:10:00] They released one a week now. Sometimes it's two a week. Anyway. You just want to company like Amazon that's going to really take its time to craft a good original series for you. All right. The duck knight. The duck knight. All right. Chris Nolan. Chrissy N. Right.

[00:10:17] He made Batman Begins. It was a big hit. Bartman Begins but yes. Bartman Begins. People are going to be like, Oh yes. Bartman Begins. People liked it. They said we want more of this. The tease at the end of the Joker had people fucking clamor in.

[00:10:31] And David S. Goyer as the movie was being made. Yeah. Wrote treatments for two sequels. Okay. One with the Joker and then the other one with Harvey Dent. Okay. So they had those like kind of like ready as like if we want more. Okay.

[00:10:48] Two pitches, two pitches, two pitches, two Goyer pitches. Uh huh. Yeah. Right down the plate. What are the two pitches? Like I told you, the first one's the Joker movie. Right. Which and then the second one is the Harvey Dent movie.

[00:11:03] And he was going off of the Long Halloween which they had used a little bit of for the Batman Begins, you know with Mer, what's it called? Falcone. Falcone. And Harvey Dent's arc in this is very similar to the Long Halloween. Yeah. Which is...

[00:11:18] Joker is not really a part of Long Halloween. But the Harvey Dent... No, he's not a... Long Halloween is the real Harvey Dent back to the very tragic fall. Well, Halloween is like a sort of stretched out... Of an honest man, yeah.

[00:11:27] Of take, yeah, much more deep take on the original Harvey Dent myth, right? Which is like he was this attorney, yadda yadda yadda. Yeah. All this stuff happened to him. It's got the classic acid though. Yes.

[00:11:39] You know, that's his typical comic book art and is the acid only hit half of him. Yes. While he was... Prosecuting. Yeah. And somehow it burned the rest of his body too. No. Don't worry about it. So Nolan was uncertain if he wanted to even make a sequel.

[00:11:57] Yeah. Right? Pretty crazy to think about now. It is, but I do actually think that the story of these movies is each time Nolan kind of has to be talked into it and the first time he's basically happy to make a sequel and

[00:12:09] the second time he really doesn't want to. And I think it shows, but I think in this film... He was into the Joker. He wanted to do the Joker. And he cracked, what if I make it a different type of movie?

[00:12:19] What if I don't just try to make Batman Begins 2? Right. What if I try to do my version of Michael Man's Heat in the world of Batman? It's very true, but... So the film goes through a stylistic shift. It does. It goes through a sort of theological shift.

[00:12:31] It does. To a degree. Yeah. But also as we mentioned, I think on our Batman Begins episode... Bartman Begins. Bartman Begins. You know, he's like this will be a Joker movie. Yeah. And Batman will be important but is going to be more reflected through the Joker.

[00:12:45] This is a movie I've always wanted to take a stopwatch to. Like in terms of screen time? Because I kind of... There's a lot of Batman in it. I kind of feel like Dent Joker. There's a lot of Dent. Batman and Gordon. All are like equal-ish. Kind of.

[00:13:01] I mean, but there's... I feel like all of them would get pretty close in terms of screen time breakdown. I don't think so because... Not equal, but pretty close. I don't think the Joker is in it that much. He's sort of an underrated...

[00:13:11] Like he's not in the first chunk of the movie at all. Sure. Then he shows up. You know, they use him very sparingly. Like in a way where it doesn't really feel like they're using him sparingly. But it's a movie in which these characters are often isolated.

[00:13:24] They're obviously the points for this. But Harvey Dent also is like... I feel like each character has kind of got like 30 minutes. Yeah, but the thing about Dent is he gets the last half, like the last third of the movie. And the Joker, he's just peppered in. Yeah.

[00:13:38] You know? But so Nolan and his brother Jonathan. The two... The two Nolan's, they decide to steep themselves in Joker. Right. And they decide to go off of the first appearance of the Joker. And this is the first time...

[00:13:52] The first time Jonathan Nolan is like officially credited co-screenwriter. Right. Because with Memento he actually did get an Oscar nomination, but he was technically based on his story. Right. There was always a sense of his brother was helping him out with stuff his brother's been thinking.

[00:14:06] Is that right? I'm trying to remember the first stage. I believe Nolan has soul screenwriting credit, but it's based on... No. Because Talvin McCray... Really? They both wrote it? Yeah. Okay. So I'm wrong. So I'm wrong. So I'm wrong. Oh man, I'm a big man. Yeah.

[00:14:21] Big man, huh? Not physically, but yeah. And also they liked the Fritz Lang movie, the Testament of Dr. Mabuse. Yeah, cool movie. I actually have no idea how you say that. Mabuse. Mabuse. Mabuse. Mabuse. Mabuse. And he was very interested unlike the Tim Burton film

[00:14:37] in avoiding an origin story. Yes. Or be like an elemental figure. Which was, I mean, I think the master stroke of this movie. Oh for sure. That allows it to be this more... That allows this movie to function as such a philosophical exercise. And then as you say,

[00:14:54] he obviously also has this big idea of like, Michael Mann's heat is the story of LA told through these criminals and cops fighting each other. Why can't I do the same thing with Gotham? Make it a movie about a city.

[00:15:07] Make, you know, like, you know, like the city. Not a character in like the cheesy way. Right. I don't know, like, like literally buildings feel like characters for him. I always thought it would be cool if this movie was called Gotham City.

[00:15:20] Well, I think, I thought your argument was that the third one should be called Gotham City. 100%. Because like, I kind of agree with that. Yeah. Yeah, like, don't call it the Dark Knight Rises. I hate that. I hate that. We'll talk about that next episode.

[00:15:32] It's called that because that has to have been like the studio is like, come on. It's like calling it the Empire Strikes Back Again. Yeah. You know, it's like calling it Spider-Man 2 2. It's like you take the best one. Spider-Man 2 comma TOO.

[00:15:47] My friend Doug Rosenberg used to have this bit that there were so many critters movies sequels had sequels. Uh huh. So he was like, it's like critters 4 2. I just think about that all the time. There are few jokes that please me more than that one.

[00:15:59] It's up there with consider the coconut for me of just things that will make me laugh anytime I think about it. Alright. Have you considered the leaves been? Do you want to introduce producer Ben? The Ben Deucer, the Pro Durer. Mr. Positive. Mr. Hositive, the Haas, the Paz.

[00:16:17] The Meatlover, the Fart Detective, the Tiebreaker. Birthday Benny. The Leafs. The Fuckmaster. Not Professor Crispy. Dirtbike Benny. The Poet Laureate, The Peeper. Our finest film critic. Graduated Certain Tales with the course of different types of characters. The Neyvester is such a... Kylo Ben producer Ben Knoevi. Ben Nyshamala.

[00:16:39] Ben Sey, say Ben anything. Ailey Ben is with the dollar sign and WarHaw's. Are we done? No, I haven't. I totally zone out. Every time he does that, folks. Can I blow your mind? Yeah. You just did. Oh!

[00:16:57] When I was listing those names and you were trying to figure out whether or not you had ever considered the coconut and its leaves. Oh my God. You just considered both. This is ridiculous. Okay, the other thing that the other big decision Nolan makes, what is it Griffin?

[00:17:11] I'm Axe. Well that's actually true. And you do see it when you're watching on Blue Ridge. Literally big decision. Very true. But no, it's... Let me get this Harvey Dent thing. Now you just fucking squeeze it on in the back there. Let's put them together. Oh yeah.

[00:17:26] Let's make one movie about both villains. That's an epic. And Harvey Dent is kind of... If you look at this movie... Harvey Dent is the backbone of the movie according to him. I'd argue he's the protagonist. In terms of the fact that the film,

[00:17:37] the arc of the film follows his rise and fall. Yes, but also the film is about how things kind of get worse before they get better. It's like Batman is not... That is darkest before the dawn. Right. Batman is not safe with the K.

[00:17:49] All Batman has done is kind of started the war, drawn the rules of battle, and now it's like a much worse fight in a way. Like Gotham was shitty before. Now it's kind of insane, but maybe with some chance of getting it out of this situation.

[00:18:08] And Harvey Dent represents what Batman wishes he could be, which is someone who is able to function, to fight in the light, not in the shadows with his own name, with his own face, above the law. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Harvey Dent's kind of like, yeah, Gotham's possibility.

[00:18:22] White Knight. Yes, she's the one. Our White Knight. Batman's the Dark Knight. So does that... You think that's a good decision? Great decision. And it definitely is three movies. Yes, and people have complained. I remember when the movie came out and people liked the movie.

[00:18:37] The movie was pretty popular. Quite well reviewed and made some money. But I remember, you know, the thinking was, because even at that point in time, the idea was like, oh, every superhero movie you got to end setting up with the next one would be.

[00:18:50] And so people kind of assumed, oh, he's going to turn into two-faced at the end to set up for the third one. I mean, I was like, oh, Eckhart's in this, but he's being set up. He's Harvey Dent and he's setting up. And then...

[00:19:02] The Joker will fuck him up or something like that. Right, and the fact that Harvey Dent's a closed loop in this film... Yep. I remember people being upset about that and saying like, they should save that for the third one.

[00:19:11] I think the reason this movie is so effective is because it's telling, it's spending several plates at the same time. Yeah, but not only that, that has become such an irritating trope. Not to get mad at me, y'all. In every movie where it's like,

[00:19:23] you know, I'll be leaving some superhero movie with a friend of mine or my girlfriend or whatever, who don't know the fucking comics or what, and they'll be like, but what was the deal with that character? And I'm like, wow, he's going to... In the next movie,

[00:19:36] they're going to do it with him. Yeah, it's the worst. It's the worst, the worst, the worst, like stretching it out. In this movie, rewatching it last night, it is kind of incredible how self-contained it is because Batman is one of the few pieces

[00:19:50] of pop culture that is so well known, so established, that people even know kind of like four rungs down into the basics of Batman. Yes. Of how he functions in Alfred and everything. Right. And this movie references so little of what happens directly when Batman begins,

[00:20:05] and especially even just recasting Rachel Dawes. It's like, you can enter into this movie, all the background, the context you need is just from knowing who Batman is, I know who Batman is, I know who Bruce Wayne is, I know who Alfred is, I know how he functions,

[00:20:16] and then all the primary characters in this film are pretty much established within the film. You know, the problem obviously that your Green Lanterns or whatever have is like they can't do that. They can't do that because people don't know. They have to be like, people don't know,

[00:20:30] they have to set them up. Right. Batman, they don't have to do it. People know who the Joker is, people know who Batman is, people know who Gotham is. They know who Alfred is, they know who Two-Faces. Alfred. I'd like a little splash of chemical waste, you know?

[00:20:44] Oh, so you want a Joker origin. Just a little splash, a little splash. This is, you know, I think because he was so unconcerned with making a kind of obvious, didactic sequel to the story he set up, he just made a story that was interesting to him

[00:20:59] with the Batman universe. Right. As a vehicle to say what he wanted to say. Which is interestingly kind of the same thing that Burton did with Batman Returns. I mean Batman Returns is a movie where he just went, I'm going to make a Burton movie using Batman characters.

[00:21:12] Yep. And it is kind of its own thing from the first one except people went, no, no, no, no. Yeah, that one freaked people out and the Dark Knight everyone was like, ah, me likey. And all these people who hadn't seen Batman Begins

[00:21:21] were there opening night like jazz because it was just, A, the idea that he was doing the Joker. That was what Pete Travers says by the way. Me likey. That was his word. That was his quote on the DVD box. Joker's just like, you know,

[00:21:34] the two most iconic villains in the history of superhero comics are the Joker and Doctor Doom and one of them has been done correctly a bunch of times. The other one has been done incorrectly every time. The Joker is way more iconic than Doctor Doom.

[00:21:47] I agree, but Doctor Doom's the best Marvel villain. Would you agree with that? Yes, I would. I like Magneto, but that's more of a personal preference. I think Doctor Doom's probably your number one Marvel villain. Yeah. Joker's the big guy, everyone knows who he is,

[00:22:00] everyone likes him and he's a guy who's, you know, open to a lot of different interpretations. Yes. He's multifaceted so you can always come out from a new angle and go, this time we're going to do a little less of this, a little more of that. Right, like,

[00:22:12] you want to talk about David Ayer's angle on him in the film Suicide Squad? Yeah, the angle was what if Joker dumb? A little bit less of this, this one's good. Yeah. Him being good. More of this, dumb. No, no, no, no, come on, let's be honest.

[00:22:28] He was like, what if he was twisted? We've seen the Joker before, but he's never been twisted. He's never arranged knives in a perfect semi-circle and then, like, laughed near them. Most people who shred on an electric guitar aren't literally shredding, but this Joker is.

[00:22:51] What if Joker ran a strip club? We just, what happens in that movie? Joker meets Scarface. Yeah, exactly. Right. Yes, yes. Whereas this is like, I mean, Heath Ledger talked a lot about Malcolm McDowell's performance in a Clockwork Orange. Right? An anarchic Joker. Right. Mysterious.

[00:23:16] Yeah, he weirdly like. Kind of funny. Yes. Like, you know, in kind of a creepy way, but like not, it's all sound lame. Somehow, even though it was nine years in advance, you know, and the movie hadn't been made yet, I remember at the time when Heath Ledger

[00:23:30] was doing interviews, they asked him what he based his character on. He said mostly, I was trying to think of what the most twisted, evil, horrifying character in the history of cinema was, so I picked Henry from the book of Henry. Yeah, right. Right. Right.

[00:23:43] He went for that. It's crazy. Little Hank. Not Henry from a portrait of a serial killer, which is of course what Henry grows up to be. The second scary. He's alive. You gotta open the book folks. Gotta open the book.

[00:23:56] But yeah, I mean, as we said in our Badm Begins episode, like from the second Badm Begins came out, people were flipping out over who was going to play the Joker. I know. People were freaking out and I think we talked

[00:24:05] about it in our Matrix, one of our Matrix sequels episodes because there was the Leitchi Holm rumor. Oh, right. Yeah. But there was, everyone was going to be the Joker. Everyone was going to be the Joker. Anyone who was like vaguely weird. Right.

[00:24:20] And I just remember every single piece of this movie being chewed over and inspected in a way that now has kind of become par for the course and certainly online film, you know, Nurtury existed before then. But I feel like the hype for this

[00:24:35] movie kind of raised everything to a new level that it has stayed at now. Now we're just dissecting everything, running times or big news stories, you know? And I remember that being one of the movies where it was like, oh, it's two and a half hours.

[00:24:48] Like that was like a headline. Like people are just so excited about every tidbit about this movie because it felt like this is kind of the apex movie moment of what the superhero film trend has been building up to. Sure. And people, I remember at the onset

[00:25:03] of that summer, 2008 said like this is the year the superhero movie dies. I think we've hit the apex and it's going to end. How funny. Right. And it was Iron Man came out in May and The Dark Knight came out in July

[00:25:15] and they just both kick started the next 10 years. OK. You know, everyone thought it had like crested, we were coming to an end and instead it like revived it and set the template of what everyone else was going to follow. It also sparked a zillion bad

[00:25:29] trends such as people thinking that this was like, you know, comic books done right. Correct. And these people who were like, I, a grown person, understand Batman because I read the comics and always have, I know what's correct and what isn't.

[00:25:46] Which we talked about a lot in our Baton Begins episode. We did. But it's more the idea that this movie is respecting the characters rather than taking them seriously. Right. But I think everyone misinterpreted it and went, oh, let's take everything way too seriously.

[00:26:02] Let's drown it in gravitas. Yes. Which especially if you are not a filmmaker of gravitas that comes off really cloying if it's fake sort of pretentious babble. Trying to think of like, maybe I should like sum it up a list of like comic book movies.

[00:26:19] You know, all comic book movies that like sort of came after. Well, I even feel like, you know what kind of kept on tiptoeing through my mind while rewatching this last night and I know it's a movie you like more than I do. Which one?

[00:26:33] I feel like even the far tentacle reaches of like Prometheus are kind of inspired by something like this where it's like, oh, what if we can revive a franchise and put a lot of like philosophical debate into the body of the movie. A franchise, but why so serious?

[00:26:49] No, but you know, here's the, no. But that thing, the kind of, trying to make the heavy blockbuster. I'm very glad I looked at this list. Okay. Because after The Dark Knight, I'm not counting the other movies of 2008 which include like Hellboy 2, The Spirit.

[00:27:01] So there was similar kinds of movies coming out where it was like artist led comic book movies. Sure, but yeah, those are coming from different angles. I mean, Spirit's going off a sensitive. I know. Right, yeah. 2009 you have Watchmen and you have X-Men Origins Wolverine.

[00:27:16] Those are the two superhero movies of that year. The only two? Imagine just two and one of them's Watchmen. That's crazy. But Watchmen is definitely heavily inspired by The Dark Knight. And The Watchmen trailer. The budget is inspired by The Dark Knight. But The Watchmen trailer plays before

[00:27:33] The Dark Knight. Does it? Yeah, maybe you're right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I remember that being the thing where I'm like, fucking Watchmen. Like people were like, Watchmen's like the sequel. I guess Watchmen is inspired by Batman Begins as well obviously. Yes. And 300. And 300.

[00:27:47] That was the big thing. I worked at Forbidden Planet in New York City right after the fall of 2008. So in the wake of The Dark Knight and the build up to Watchmen coming out that March. And it was like, I swear to God,

[00:28:01] one out of every five books sold was either the Killing Joke, which they always cited as the main influence on Heath Ledger's interpretation of The Joker. Yes. Yeah. And more Joker one off. Or Watchmen. It was like every week we'd get a new shipment in of Killing

[00:28:19] Joke and a new shipment of Watchmen by the end of that week we'd be done. And the Killing Joke is like a pretty bad comic. One of Moore's worst in my opinion. Yeah, it's not very good. Well drawn and like has a good idea to it. Yeah.

[00:28:30] But is also kind of famous as the one where The Joker kills, I mean not kills, paralyzes that girl. And like it just feels like too much for not enough. Like, you know, it just felt like it kind of feels like they

[00:28:42] put me in one of those sort of two, you know, dark and gritty quote unquote comic books. It also not to stand on my dumb soapbox here for a second. But it's very short. Yeah. It's like 30, 40 pages maybe. Yeah. And there was like some hard

[00:28:55] cover re-release special edition that they had like come out with to tie into the Joker boom post Dark Knight. But there also was this book called the DC Universe Collected Stories of Alan Moore. Oh, I love that book. I have that book. Right.

[00:29:08] And I would always say to people they'd be like, do you have the Killing Joke? I'd be like, don't buy the Killing Joke. Buy this. It includes the Killing Joke. It does. It costs the same amount of money. It does. And it has 10 better stories.

[00:29:20] It has what do you have the man who has everything in it. I love that book. And people would always want to buy the Killing Joke because they want to have it on their shelf. Yeah. The Joker's twisted visage. Yeah, yeah. Comic books. People are annoying. Yeah.

[00:29:34] 2010 you get kick ass. Okay. Iron Man 2. Right. Here's the big one. Jonah Hex. Yeah. Jonah Hex. Yeah. Let's do it. Oh wait, you want to you want us to do a Wonder Woman movie? I don't know but Jonah Hex though. That's crazy. So 2011 is when we really kind

[00:29:53] of hit over saturation point. 2011 the superhero movies are The Green Hornet, Thor, Green Lantern. X-Men First Class, Green Lantern, Captain America the first adventure. Yeah, that's the year where they start really kind of figuring out what they're going to do. Yeah. Not that all the movies are

[00:30:07] working but the companies figure out their strategies about how they're making these movies. Agreed. Yeah. Like yeah. Anyway it goes on. Anyway the Dark Knight. The other thing he did, okay well should we mention some of the people who are fucking considered for the Joker?

[00:30:20] If you, depending on who you believe, everyone. Paul Bettany, Adrian Brody, Robin Williams that's not real. That was like they considered him for the Riddler. Robin Williams always wants to be in a Batman movie. Right. And see he was a big nerd. And Nicholson briefly wasn't

[00:30:37] going to do it and William signed on for the original 89 Batman and then he found out that he was being used as negotiation leverage. He wanted to play the Riddler and Schumacher but then Jim Carrey got so big. Yeah. And because you know I

[00:30:48] think he had worked with Nolan before he campaigned heavily to play someone in this trilogy. But I mean there was no villain picked that he was a right fit for. And it came after this everyone thought he was going to do the Riddler. Remember that?

[00:31:00] For Dark Knight Rides. Yeah, everyone thought the third movie was going to have a Riddler and everyone was always like X4 the Riddler? Like can we have a Riddler? You know who I thought he could have played? The Riddler. I thought he would have been a good Nolanverse

[00:31:12] Hugo Stroud. And then he was like he was like he was going to be a good Nolanverse Hugo Strange. Sure, Hugo Strange would be fine. I thought that was the kind of zone he'd be good in. But anyway. Whatever. Didn't happen. So. Everyone was considered.

[00:31:27] Apparently Matt Damon was first offered Harvey Dent. Makes sense. And I remember being disappointed when he didn't get the part because it seemed kind of iconic but man Aaron Eckert like. Ruffalo, Ryan Philippi, Josh Lucas, Leaves Shriver, Hugh Jackman but I'm sure Jackman wasn't interested.

[00:31:44] Leaves Shriver makes a difference. But Eckert's kind of ideal in this part and he was an interesting point because he blows up in like in the company of men is like. Oh, here's this very traditional kind of leading man guy who's an ass who could play an asshole.

[00:31:56] Right. So then Hollywood was like well can we put him in a movie that's less toxic? And then he sort of became this like character support guy. You know he's an Aaron Brockovich where he's kind of unrecognizable. It's very good in it. He's quite good in that movie.

[00:32:09] He's in Nurse Betty which he's the villain in sort of he's like the asshole she leaves. Yeah. Poor and paycheck. And it felt like he had kind of really just struggling at this point. It felt like he'd wiped out and then thank you for smoking. 2006.

[00:32:22] Suddenly put him back on the map and at that moment Nolan is putting together Dark Knight and he becomes the guy. And this is it. And when this came out everyone was like now Eckert's finally found his place. He's going to be a solid Hollywood leading man and

[00:32:35] he has only made bad choices since then. Well he was in Rabbit Hole which like you know is a fine choice. Actually he rules in Sully. Look, he's the best in Sully but in between Rabbit Hole and Sully. I Frankenstein. You know in the fallen

[00:32:49] movies which it's like you're always like oh yeah he's in those. He's the president. Yeah. Both of them. Yeah. So. But in both of them he gets kidnapped and then Freeman becomes the acting president so it's kind of a thankless role. It's Freeman and Butler

[00:33:04] those movies not him. Yeah exactly. He's always just the McGuffin. I know what I'm saying and like Bleed for this and Sully last year. He's great in both of those movies. Yeah but no one saw Bleed for this and Sully was unrecognized in its time.

[00:33:18] And of course according to this thing I'm reading he also played Harvey Denton The Dark Knight Coaster. The what? The Dark Knight Coaster a roller coaster. Oh really? At Six Flags Great Adventure. We should go on that. I don't know if it still exists.

[00:33:33] If it does let me let me ask this if it does could we do that as a bonus episode. No, no way. The three of us go to Six Flags. I'm looking at Ben right now. Ben? I'm into it. No I hate roller coasters.

[00:33:47] Great State of New Jersey. Yeah. We go we record an episode live at Six Flags. Great Adventure. Why did they bring this up? Like what is the matter with me? We go on the coaster we eat some churros we have a fun time I buy merchandise.

[00:33:58] Maybe a fun day David. Okay if you I'm not sure if it still exists. If you want us to do a bonus episode on the Dark Knight Coaster tweet at David L Simms and let him know. Seems like it's in the dark. Great. All the better for podcasting.

[00:34:12] That's going to be really fun to hear us on the ride. Apparently it's somewhat of a mild coaster. Great and smaller. Great. One snag. It's a bit dark according to one of the comments I'm reading. Well good thing podcasting is an audio medium. What do you think we're

[00:34:30] going to record? Yes, of course. We're going to ride it ten times. Geez. We don't talk in between our rides. We don't talk online but every time we get on the ride we start recording and pick up the conversation from where we left off. Bonus app.

[00:34:43] We're about 40 minutes in. We should probably start talking about the movie, right? Jesus Christ. Okay. So here's how the movie starts. It's a Warner Brothers picture. You're kidding me. No it's actually I like the, it's very, because the first movie, the title card is just bats.

[00:34:58] Turning into a bat and then dispersing into bats. And that movie had a color scheme especially in its advertising but also just brown. Yes. Brown. Brown. Sort of me. Yeah, I'm the one flying off the handle in this episode, David, definitely. Let's lay all the blame at my

[00:35:16] feet. Mr. Brown over here. Taking a one-way trip to Browntown. So what's the color scheme of this movie? Blue. Blue. No one's listening. They've all turned it off. This is the biggest movie we'll ever cover and we're blowing it. And then they, they go like, they go like,

[00:35:34] they go like, they go like, they go like, they go like, we were like guaranteed blockbuster episode. That's why we chose Nolan. It's like everyone's going to want to hear our take on the big movies that they've all seen and we're like, brown. Blue. Oh my god.

[00:35:54] Jesus Christ. We're not making Podmas for this one. Rebecca's not going to like this. All right. Okay. So, movie starts with an IMAX prologue that was released with I am legend. Yeah. You mean the whole bank robbery set piece? All shot in IMAX. Yes.

[00:36:14] Before he made this movie, like the, you know all this Nolan shit turns into legend. It's really annoying. I can't deny it. Like before they made Blade Ra, I mean before they made Batman again. I'm sorry, it turns into a legend. A legend. Master Wayne. Not master Wayne.

[00:36:28] He's not Alfred. Okay. I'm sorry. Hockey pants. Brown hockey pants. Bart man. What is this? I just raised the table. Yeah. I know we have moving tables. Oh no, I'm crushing my legs. Hey, stop it. This is not helping the episode. Okay. Come on.

[00:36:51] I literally had no idea what we were just talking about. Ben. Ben. What's up? Why so serious? Why? He did it. He did it. He got that line in. Before Batman begins, he showed his crew Blade Runner, right? And he said, I want you to think about

[00:37:06] this movie and we're making the Dark Knight. He shows his crew Heat. Yes. And he says, I love men to them. Movies about boys. But he also, right? It's called Batman for a reason. He starts with a Bank Heist and he casts William Fickner. Yeah. The, come on.

[00:37:20] The great William Fickner. The legend, the fucking greatest. One of those great American characters where whenever he shows up in a scene you're in good hands. I will, we'll talk about it on our Michael Bay miniseries whenever it is we do it, but I want to preview now

[00:37:34] that his research is going to be now that his reading of the line. He's got space dementia in Armageddon is like one of the top tier line readings of all time. Dude is just a pro. You go from never having heard of space dementia. Yeah.

[00:37:49] Hearing the word space dementia and thinking, that's not a thing. Totally believing in space dementia. One, he's like my favorite type of character actor where he's simultaneously like pretty handsome and kind of creepy. Very true. Right. It's like he is, I mean it's almost a Killian Murphy situation

[00:38:05] of really striking face. Yeah. But at the same time you're like, he's frightening. Like something a little for any I'm sure if you saw him in person, you'd be like unqualified handsome guy. Yeah, exactly. When you photograph him something about him, he's got those icy eyes.

[00:38:21] He's got very really defined cheekbones. Yep. I want to fuck his face. So there's Throttle back. What's going on? Leave his face alone. No, no, he wanted Dwight Yocum to play this role. Oh, that's my favorite thing about it. Dwight Yocum was like,

[00:38:35] I gotta go take my country act on the road again. I got to act in five Vince Vaughn movies. So it's Fickner but he's so good. So good. But anyway, I'm X as you say. Right. And this is all part of the build up to this movie.

[00:38:49] They also did this thing. I don't know if you remember this, but they did this thing where they had like a whole kind of like second life viral campaign for the movie where people had to like email in to uncover images. Do you remember that?

[00:39:03] I mean, obviously they had this whole campaign planned around the Joker. Yeah. And then he Fledger dies. But this is even prior to that. I'm talking before the first trailer came out when they released the first image of what the Joker. Yes, I remember the image of him.

[00:39:16] Yeah, behind the piece you were trying to get. I know, but we should talk about he Fledger died. I can't believe we'd even mentioned a spoiler. Yeah, he Fledger died. When did he? He died. I know exactly. He died at my brother James's birthday. January 22nd 2008.

[00:39:30] I was living in Paris at the time. I was in my one semester of college that I made it through. Or rather, I'm sorry. I was at the start of the second semester that I dropped out of weeks later. It was, I just remember someone texted me. Yeah.

[00:39:45] With like a confusing text that was like he Fledger. Like, and I was like, why did someone just text me that? And I went on to the Internet and I saw it and it's like one of those rare celebrity deaths where I was like literally like shell shocked

[00:39:57] for like a day. Yeah, it was so bizarre. It was the worst. It was the day of the Oscar nominations that year. That's right. The year before my brother's birthday, no country Oscars. I was living in LA so the time zones were different.

[00:40:10] And I just remember getting it and being very disarmed and confused for the entire day. It just felt like he had just emerged as like, oh, I guess this is the guy of his generation. Right. Brokeback seemed to cement him as like he's going to be

[00:40:23] one of the guys 100% and then you know he's casting this and you're like, huh, okay, the Joker people made all these dumb jokes. Everyone hated when he got announced. People were like, well, Joker's going to be gay now. Brokeback Joker. He's not skinny. Who are these idiots?

[00:40:36] His face is two round. Joker's supposed to look skeletal. They were all these dumb petty complaints. And then the second like stuff started coming out. The first images, the first trailers. By the time you died, there had been one trailer and people already like, Jesus Christ,

[00:40:48] this performance looks interesting. It's for sure. And your and the design, the voice, everything seemed to be and then they had to like scrap their whole advertising campaign, which was all based around him and they went with this much more muted campaign that was more like,

[00:41:00] you know, those images of like Batman in front of a skyscraper and like there's the bat signals on fire and stuff like that. But there was, I mean, you know, there were a lot of factors, but I don't think there's ever been more excitement for a performance

[00:41:14] than this. And it was like people were already excited to see Nolan do the Joker when people were excited by what they had seen of this performance. And then when he died, it added this like whole weird aura to it. Right. You're right. And, you know, it's gross,

[00:41:28] but a thing that helps this movie and its legacy is that you never had him doing Jay Leno and talking about the performance. You're right. That the performance totally speaks for itself. Yeah. That Nolan kind of was very respectful and classy about how he talked about Heath Ledger

[00:41:44] and didn't try to exploit his legacy. And it's just this weird out of nowhere performance that exists totally on its own without any sort of explanation. Were he really the only one who had any sort of explanation? Were Heath Ledger still alive?

[00:41:57] We would see him right now on Ellen promoting his next movie telling new Joker anecdotes to try to give his movie the Joker boost. Maybe. Heath Ledger was always a weird guy, but maybe. You know the way people do that. I know what you're saying, of course.

[00:42:10] You're saying it's like the full-fiction thing or whatever. Yeah. I get what you're saying and of course, yeah, I mean, but anyway, it sucks he's dead. Yeah. And that's, you know, when this movie came out and just blew the doors off of all box office records.

[00:42:23] It was why there had to be a sequel. Right. But it's so obvious that Nolan had no plans for sequel that didn't have the Joker in it. Right. And it kind of left him at a loss, but people kept on seeing it over and over again.

[00:42:33] It was really driven by like, Nolan himself said when people asked him like, what do you think is behind the success? And he goes, look, I think it's a weird lightning in a bottle thing. I'm proud of the movie we made, but Heath gave this incredible performance

[00:42:44] and the circumstances added this to it and everyone is going to see it because of what you get. I just remember it being like, when did you see it? Like I went to opening night. I went to the Union Square Regal and it was like every theater

[00:42:56] was playing the dark night. They did, the campaign was called Dark Night All Night. And these theaters would have every screen was playing the dark night. And there'd be like 12, 12 o'clock, 12 o'clock, 12 o'clock, 12 o'clock, 12 o'clock, 12 o'clock. Yeah. It played for 72 hours straight that opening weekend.

[00:43:09] I went and saw an early screen with my grandmother. She's a member of BAFTA, which is the British Academy of Film, Television Arts. Aware of what BAFTA is. And this is your grandma who runs like a French film festival. She's like a talent liaison

[00:43:20] for an American film festival in the north of France. And so she gets invited to all these screenings and went with her. And they always, the BAFTA people will come out and give a little introduction where they just say the movie and they never editorialize.

[00:43:33] They go like, this is the film directed by this person with this cast. Enjoy. And I remember the guy came out and he said like, obviously weird circumstance with Heath Ledger, but everyone has said this performance is incredible. Like there even was this thing

[00:43:43] in this like stuffy room of old British ladies. Everyone was like, what this fucking performance? Yes. And they were just in this very kind of like, excuse me, polite subdued crowd. I wasn't seeing it with like a blockbuster fanboy audience. Anytime he was on screen

[00:43:58] there was this weird electric energy. Oh, electrifying. It's a great performance. It's crazy how good he is in this movie. It's crazy. I will say though. Crazy like the Joker. Even crazier. Unpredictable. Twisted. No, no. Twisted. I will say watching it now there is an element of

[00:44:16] so much of what was incredible about this performance. Is it just felt so surprising? I guess so. In terms of how much variation he has in the character, how much his dialect can change, how much his physicality can change, how much his energy can change.

[00:44:29] There's an unpredictable element to what's he going to do next, right? Like he captured how the Joker feels in your city to an audience member because you're just like, what's this guy doing Ziggin and Zaggin? And now this performance is so chewed over so many impressions.

[00:44:45] It's weird watching it now when you know exactly what moves he's going to do. Doesn't bother me. Doesn't take away from the performance, but I'm saying there's a bit of an Austin Powers effect where it's like your uncle's done so many shitty impressions. Maybe.

[00:44:55] To me this, that's why it's good. I think it's so great. I love watching it. I can't wait for him to show up every day. I remember watching the movie in that first screening and people just being like, what the fuck is he going to do?

[00:45:04] I know, I know. I agree. You're right, of course. And now we know everything. It doesn't mean the performance is less good. You've made your point. Thank you. Yeah. He robs a bank. In IMAX. Which is crazy because it's a heavy camera. It's true.

[00:45:18] You've got to be agile, fast to rob a bank and he's holding his IMAX camera over his shoulder. You've got that in the movie, the Joker is also supposed to be the camera operator, right? It's clear. I think Nolan does a great job communicating that to the audience.

[00:45:31] Much like Deadpool, Richard T. Joker knows he's in a movie. He does know he's in a movie. But he's so twisted. He doesn't want you to know that he knows. Honestly, that is like, think about that. That's an easy thing you could do with a Joker

[00:45:41] to fuck everything up. Yeah. Anyway, not to say, Jared Leto didn't even do that. He was just twisted. He's done it. Twisted. He does that. Jared Leto. He has an Oscar. He does. An Academy Award. He does indeed. That's what he's got. So does Heath Ledger. Yeah.

[00:46:03] The only man arrogant enough to be like, Oh, follow Heath Ledger? Yeah, sure. I'll do that. It's a tough thing to do. Why would anyone say yes to that part? I mean, why would anyone who had an Oscar say yes to that part? Jared Leto's just like,

[00:46:15] I'm Jared Leto. I could do anything. I get why, I mean, names, Griffin Newman would say yes to the Joker. Yeah. And also it was kind of rude. They didn't offer it to me. But it is funny that you look, we're not here to discuss Jared Leto,

[00:46:28] but it is crazy that the whole publicity campaign was about how he's like, I am the Joker. Yeah, you're right. We're not here to discuss Jared Leto. We should just let him be. Oh, actually, we got a, we got a package talking over that Ben.

[00:46:38] We got a package sent. Oh, what's in the package? I don't know. Oh God. Oh my God. What is this in here? It's rat condoms filled with dick blood. Damn it. Jared. Jared. Rat condoms. Ridiculous. All right. Oh God. Joker, he's up to no good.

[00:47:09] He's a bad guy. He's a bad guy. Rob's a bank, a mob bank with all these guys dressed like clowns. That's a great sequence. People loved it. It's so good. The whole thing where he's like, I know why they call him the Joker. Well, there is this.

[00:47:23] I love that shit. It's so cheesy, but it totally works. The IMAX cameras are notoriously loud. Yes. It's very hard to get usable dialogue recording. So it's good to have some people's lips not moving. Is that what you're saying? In this movie, most of the IMAX sequences

[00:47:37] are either action sequences or establishing shots. And this is one of the full long sequences with a lot of dialogue that's also IMAX and they're all wearing masks. And there is this weird, heightened, like all of the Joker thugs are clearly re-voiced later in ADR.

[00:47:54] Their voices are a little disconnected. It makes it feel a little Batman the Animated Series in a way I like. I like it too. And I like the way they talk with it. Because they're all very like, Hey, I hear this guy. Hey, this Joker guy is crazy.

[00:48:05] His name's Richard or something. His middle name is Tiberius. The T stands for trouble. They could have been a little more clowny. Like they had the mask, of course, but I like when this henchman has the whole gear. All the clown stuff.

[00:48:22] You mean like the Joel Schumacher type where he's like, Mr. Freeze is like all of my henchmen have to wear like snow suits. They're all colds. It's like in his rider. And they're also ice skating their way through the back.

[00:48:34] He's like, I can only rob like ice skating gala frozen banks. Mr. Freeze's top thug wakes up at five o'clock in the morning and his wife's like, honey, why are you so up so early? Don't you have to be there until nine?

[00:48:49] He's like, yeah, but I got to paint my entire body blue. I'm a non-frozen man and my boss will only keep me on payroll if I apply sparkly blue makeup to my entire body. Yes, man. Come if I'm when he says that. Yeah. All right.

[00:49:06] He says that when he's fucking Robin. We're one scene into the dark night, which is a two hour and 20 minute movie. Just FY sorry, two hour and 32 minute movie. Listen, if we do Chris for Nolan, our dark night episode will be so huge. We can't miss.

[00:49:23] Let's just do it and be legends. Unquestionably gonna be our most listened to episode ever. This is the best reviewed. The Joker robs the bank. He kills full names. Fuck off. He kills everyone. Richard T Joker. Yeah, thank you.

[00:49:39] God, I can't believe I'm going home with that bit. Richard T Joker robs the bank. Everyone kills each other. It's a little Rube Goldberg machine. I kill the bank driver, the bank driver. Jesus Christ, the bus driver. Right. And he did shift around.

[00:49:53] But like how many times in this movie alone, let alone an inception, is it this where there's this like elaborate scheme that when you think about for one second, you're like, well, wait a second. They'd have to be so precisely organized. Like there's no way this could happen.

[00:50:08] There's one of them in particular in this movie. Which one? I'll get to it when we get to it. But I think with the Joker, it kind of works because it makes him a little bit mystical. Yeah, so he's a showman. He's a force of nature thing.

[00:50:20] A, he's a showman. B, he's an agent of chaos. Sure. And he studies chaos. I mean, I like the idea that he's kind of so attuned to human behavior that he can kind of anticipate how people are going to react. Anyway, he has, he robs the mob bank.

[00:50:41] William Fickner's mad about it. All the mob money is in that one bank. He steers away into a line of buses. And what's one of my favorite shots in the movie? I think it's just really good visual storytelling. How is it gonna get away?

[00:50:53] You see this bus pull out covered in rubble. Oh, he's timed it perfectly. So all the buses from the local schools are all going at the same time. And the cop cars are moving in the opposite direction trying to catch him. Yeah.

[00:51:03] And it's like, this is a cute shot, but it's a good cute shot. It's cute, but it's also like, they had to block off a whole street in Chicago. They had to have 10 school buses and 10 police cars and all these extras. For sure.

[00:51:15] And it's a perfect like encapsulation of how Nolan weaponizes his blank check status. To be like, what I'm gonna do is shut down a street, do this one shot that's really expensive that will take like hours to reset.

[00:51:28] But I'm gonna do it because I think this one shot speaks volume. And I'm gonna shoot it on an iMacs camera. Yeah. Like, that's why Nolan movies are so expensive is because he takes his time and is just like,

[00:51:38] I'm gonna do a day where we only can get one shot successfully. Right. So in this world, the Batman fights crime. Bartman, but sure. He's a man dressed as a bat. He is. And he likes to strike a fear into the hearts of criminals throughout Gotham City.

[00:51:59] His signal is in the sky. And you see some criminals are doing criminal business. And one of them is like, Batman is Batman and around. And one guy's like, I don't think so tonight. And the guy's like, come on, will you have more luck hitting the lotto?

[00:52:12] Hitting the lotto. Gotham lotto. Ben's turning me down. That's that line. I mean, like, is he saying the power ball? I forget what it is. Sure. But this is an example of the movie being like, we know you all know who Batman is.

[00:52:27] Even if you haven't seen Batman Begins. You cut over to the cops. You get it. You get who Batman represents. No, I know. You cut over to the cops and one of the cops is like, hey, the vapour says- Investigation is still ongoing. Right.

[00:52:40] The guy's like, yeah, we got it. And then these suspects are like Elvis. Abraham Lincoln, get it. Yeah. They don't really care. They just cut to an above ground parking lot. Okay. And a truck pulls up and who comes out? Well, who is it? John C. Scarecrow. Great.

[00:52:58] John Q. Scarecrow. John C. John C. Scarecrow comes out. C stands for crazy. Nice to let Killian Murphy. Yeah, most superhero franchises kill off their villains at the end of each film and they never come back. And this feels very comic booky where it's like,

[00:53:14] no, they're always still operating. Scarecrow's around doing whatever garbage he's doing. He's not hooked up with Ras Al Ghul anymore, so he's not that cool. But he's like, you know, it's got his bag mask. Right. And then he's taken down by the Batman. Or is it? Batman?

[00:53:30] This guy's wearing hockey pants. And then the real Batman comes, takes them all down. That's more like it. Right. That's him or whatever. Yeah, Scarecrow's funny in that scene. He's a funny guy. The other scene that's funny is when he goes to Danger Fields

[00:53:49] and does the open mic and tries that as new material. I get no respect? Yeah. He does five minutes? And he keeps on loosening that noose around his neck? I tell you, I get no respect. I'm shooting weaponized hallucinogens out of crowds

[00:54:03] and Batman comes and punches me in the face. I go, I don't go to where you work and slap the battering out of your head. Getting the light. Oh, okay. And Batman, he's got a problem he learns. He's got two problems he learns.

[00:54:21] This is the introduction of the Chechen as well. Yes. Who's this gangster? Whose bit is he likes dogs? He's got them dogs. And he says, my dogs are hungry. And that's Batman's weakness. People don't know that Batman's kryptonite is dogs. He's just got allergies.

[00:54:37] These dogs really fuck with him. The Chechen is played by, who's he played by? Richie Costa. Oh, okay. No, it's not Glenn Close. Are you sure about that? I thought he was pulling a hook. And Albert Knobbs. Richie Costa who's got a big role in Black Hat.

[00:54:52] Oh yeah. He's like kind of the chief villain for a while of that movie. Sure. The other problem is Batman's suit doesn't move very well. That's the other problem. Which is a cool kind of meta-hanty. He can't look around.

[00:55:02] Yeah, because he gets up and he's kind of like moves his whole body to turn left and right. But that was like a big point is like this is the sixth major Warner Brothers Batman film. And he still has a molded rubber neck?

[00:55:12] This is the first time they made a suit where he could turn his head independently of the rest of his body. So after this little escapade, he goes to Lucius Fox played by Morgan Freeman. Now Mr. Wayne and he shows them all the new tools.

[00:55:23] He gives them an upgrade. And now he's got the new suit. He goes, does it protect against dogs? And I was like, okay great. Funny one comedy point. Yeah, it's a great scene and everyone laughs. Everyone laughs so much. And now Batman has still not rebuilt Wayne Manor.

[00:55:37] So he's got a nice apartment. He's got a little basement. That's sparse. Yeah, it's very white. It's almost like Christopher Nolan designed it. Yes. This is what Christopher Nolan's rumpest room looks like. Exactly. His children's bedroom. When they go, daddy we want to play with toys.

[00:55:52] He pushes a button and toys come out of the floorboards. Right. Christopher Nolan's a fun guy. So... Daddy. It's just setting up. There's a great shot where he takes off his shirt and you see all the bruises. And it's like, okay this movie doesn't take place

[00:56:06] that much later. The Batman begins, but it's already taken its toll. Being Batman's tough. It's hard to be Batman. Hard to be a Batman. Yes it is. I think it's the end of the movie, right? So you've got Batman. Yes. You've got Commissioner, no commissioner sorry.

[00:56:24] He's not a commissioner. Lieutenant Gordon. Jim Gordon. Who is the head of like a special crime unit. Oh yeah, Batman checks in with him. That interacts with Batman. Oh this is a thing I like a lot about this movie. That other superhero movies wouldn't do. And it does.

[00:56:37] So the idea of the Marvel movie, the most important thing that's been shown is this kind of a movie that's very similar to Batman's. But I think it's just a little bit of a little bit of a film to do with the Marvel movie.

[00:56:46] The film itself is a bit of a genre. And it's just so, you know, kind of a real, you know, sort of a new genre of film. From the time that I was four or five years old I was like, you know, I'm not sure

[00:56:57] I can put a film in this. And then I had a movie that was made into the first film. And then a movie that was made into the first film. So it was a movie that was brought to the film.

[00:57:04] Italian mob led by Maroney who's by Eric Roberts pretty good. I like him in this movie He's doing his thing. Yeah, but he's good and then you've got like Michael J. White Gamble who's like an African-American mobster and like he's I don't know

[00:57:19] He's like barely in the movie So but yeah, he gets out of the three people at like the mob table right when the mob has a mob meeting And then there's loud and then there's a money guy a glorified accountant who is an accountant from Hong Kong

[00:57:32] He's trying to pull a maid off on them Who is going to take their money? Yeah, because it's being tracked by Gordon and Batman right and their bank was robbed and their bank was robbed

[00:57:41] And he's gonna pool it in Hong Kong where it can't be touched sure by American officials Yeah, and he'll collect the interest and so the Joker comes in to this room

[00:57:52] In his first real introduction good piece of acting. This is the scene. I think we're all just losing I mean the pencil thing. Yeah, there's just so much shit going on in the performance It's true because he does all the stuff

[00:58:08] Sometimes he sounds southern sometimes he sounds Midwestern. There's the thing where's the guy is like he's crazy and he's like not I'm not that's my favorite moment. It's he's it's a great moment the mouth work

[00:58:21] I love all the like yeah move mouth movement and sounds he's making are so And the idea is that those scars are as prominent in the inside of his cheek So he's constantly kind of feeling them but that crazy thing

[00:58:33] I loved it like as much as he's presented as this like, you know Nairdou well devil may care like he just loves chaos thing It's like oh, that's the one moment in the entire film

[00:58:43] You see this bit of vulnerability in him which is like he doesn't want to be thought of as crazy no and He's not right. He's not like a side show act to these or he doesn't want to be like he these people are

[00:58:54] So beneath him right his opinion. I love also when he refers to lao as the television. Yeah Like if you listen to the television's plan like that. Yeah But so he comes in he says I'll kill the Batman for you right because he's ruining your business

[00:59:08] That's what's going on. Let's let's turn back the clocks. Everything used to be okay now. You've got the Batman I can kill him for you and they're like in exchange for what he says half They all laugh at him, but then he leaves yeah with his grenades

[00:59:23] Right, but uh, but it's something never do it for free, right? And then he has that final moment where he goes here's my card and he very casually holds up The playing card the Joker card. Yes without overselling it like a joke, right?

[00:59:35] And I remember like no he kind of goes like very he's like here's my card, right? Yeah, but he says it as if it's not unusual

[00:59:43] Right as if like here's my actual business card that they could reach him at and I remember like at that moment in this Screening it was like essentially everyone applauded him because also he's done We should say done the pencil thing where

[00:59:54] Gambles like get that guy and he's like I'm gonna how about a magic trick, right? But this seems just a fucking tour de force and at the end of it It was like he had just done like a Broadway like show stopping number

[01:00:03] It was like the range of what he does within this one four minute section The thing with the pencil is if it was just that he puts the pencil down and then smashes the guys head into it

[01:00:12] And it you're like oh my god a shocking bit of violence Yeah, that would be effective, right? But it works because he's then he goes like it's gone like he's immediately shifted to very silly mode, right? and

[01:00:26] One thing about this movie that I think is fascinating is that it is not violent at all Like in terms of like there's almost no blood or gore Until Too Faced which is of course this like crazy gory special effect. There's also that scene

[01:00:39] He just there's nothing violence like it's all in your head like whatever it is He does and there's the moment later skipping ahead a little bit where he It is implied does the mouth scars on gamble, right?

[01:00:50] Right, and they they it's so creepy scene and right if I was showing my kid that scene It would freak them out even though you don't see it

[01:00:57] But he's holding the knife to his face the whole fucking time and then is it gamblers of one of gambles man I believe it's gamble. I think it's gamble himself and then he does the aggressive expansion Yeah, thanks to the gambles two guys

[01:01:09] He's holding the knife to his head and then there's the moment where there's like the shock like In the score to imply that he's now cut his face Yes, but they just cut and he's let go of gamble. There's no blood anywhere

[01:01:20] Yeah, like you don't see any kind of no contact between the knife and the flash. No It's all implied. It's all in your head. Yep So Joker has now Made himself now and Gordon says when when Batman sort of

[01:01:35] Stopped by the bank vault him that serious right Gordon's like this Joker guy And he's like don't fucking talk to me about this joke. I know I'll keep an eye on it

[01:01:43] Like what am I supposed to do about the guys wearing dumb things on their faces or my specialty? I can beat them up in my sleep. Don't worry about it, right Yeah, and he meets dent on the rooftop

[01:01:54] Meets dent on the rooftop its dent and Gordon the three of them are up on the rooftop Which is a shot. I love it circling around around them and immediately dent in Oregon or Gordon and arguing because dense like

[01:02:05] You know you cops are corrupt and I don't trust you I know you're a good cop, but like your your guys are bad and they're like you're you're the leak

[01:02:13] You know you're the one who's fucking everything up Batman's not talking. He just disappears and they're kind of ignoring him He like only butts in the car stands at the end of it

[01:02:19] But it speaks to like the larger concept of the movie which is just like what if this movie was like worked on its own as Just like a depiction of a city and its politics and like a Rico case and then also Batman's in it

[01:02:33] Well, great cuz that man's just to the side of the thing It's like they're like well we were trying to get these guys cold by tracking the money right and but Lao has escaped with the money

[01:02:41] So Batman's job in that conversation. Just like can you get Lao like yeah, like he's in Hong Kong We can't get him. Yeah, and Batman's like I'll look into it so gets the new suit his voice is quite low Yeah, and this one it gets really Baldwin a

[01:02:57] Really he goes full Baldwin. It's it's it's it's a lot I Huh, what do you think I am lemon a farmer it's a classic line. Yeah So he ever puts together this awesome Batman Sequence where he investigates skyhooking or whatever the fuck it's called

[01:03:21] You can jump out of a plane There's a plane that goes by Batman shoots out this like floating balloon right and the plane like catches the floating balloon Yeah, and then sucks them in it's super cool. It's super cool

[01:03:32] But no yeah fit the next thing that happens is Batman's like well I'm not gonna worry about the Joker right now I'm just gonna get Lao right and he and Alfred and Lucius cook up this whole Hong Kong caper

[01:03:43] Right because he got Lucius going to the board room right the fake phones the fake phones like and Alfred's on Yacht with Russian dancers With the ballerina has the night where he runs into Rachel and then a right you also have Rachel

[01:03:58] I'm a Maggie Jillian. Now. I'm gonna say something. I have no idea if you're gonna be like Maggie Jillian Hall is pretty bad in this movie I think she's pretty hit and miss some scenes. I think she's probably better at some scenes

[01:04:08] I think she's totally off. I think Katie Holmes is better than Maggie Jillian Hall. I Kind of agree with you even though Maggie Jillian Hall sort of better casting for this. I know like physically

[01:04:20] She fits. She's closer to Christian Bale. Her scene is rough. Yes where she's like oh Jim's a friend actually where she's trying to make the exposition sound natural and it's just like

[01:04:32] She's got some scenes where she feels like she's fighting at the same level that one else in the cast and some scenes where it feels Like she's like well, I'm in a comic book movie. It doesn't really matter

[01:04:40] Yeah, you know what I'm saying some scenes it feels like she's being a little bit I'm all over the place on her as an actress because I love her in some movies

[01:04:47] But I like I like really dislike a performance in crazy heart which I do turn Oscar nomination characters also a Terrible character Weird that she got on it for that. You know what I think she's I think it was kind of like a hey

[01:05:00] You've been doing yeah, you're gonna tell me you've been around we like you everyone's worked with you You know what I think she's really good in? Weirdly world trade center. I've never seen World Trade Center

[01:05:10] She's the one her and Michael Pena play husband and wife in that movie Yeah, two of them are really fucking good in it and the rest of the movies kind of like a fart

[01:05:18] But she's got a couple scenes in that movie that are pretty incredible playing what is a very stock Kind of Oscar movie archetype of the suffering wife, you know. Yes Sure. She's really good at that. I really like her in

[01:05:31] Sherry baby. Yeah, I like her in trying to think of other things. I don't know She hasn't done a lot of movies. I like her. She likes stop doing movies now that I'm looking at She's in this the deuce, you know the TV show that's coming up

[01:05:45] But she really hasn't she hasn't made a movie since 2014 What was that Frank? Oh, right, which she's fine. I didn't that wasn't a huge fan of that Yeah, I'm not like before that white has down. I forgot that she's in that. She's so good in that

[01:05:59] Yeah, she rules and that she's awesome in that movie So it is the thing though Like I think Katie Holmes felt like she had a lot more to prove being in this type of movies So she really upped her game. She's not terrific in badminton. She's fine

[01:06:09] But Maggie John Hall it feels like it's slacking off in certain scenes a couple scenes It kind of just set my teeth on edge agreed But you innately buy her more as a DA you innately buy her more as a contemporary of Christian Bale

[01:06:20] Like she's a better piece of casting but a less effective I agree with this. I grew through saying anyway a couple scenes. I think she's really on she also Unfortunately unlike in Batman Begins plays the classic Nolan role of Ghost Lady

[01:06:34] That's the thing if she had played Rachel Dawes in the first movie, I work better it might work better But in this it's like they now here's a new actress and you're setting her up just to die

[01:06:42] Yeah, it's hard to like buy a new person playing this character and then immediately have her be like the emotional justification You know it you know it you know it you know it going in yeah, she's doing she's doomed

[01:06:53] So Rachel is now who was dating an ADA in the last movie PS. Yeah now. She's dating the DA. Yeah Played by Aaron Eckhart right I frankenstein himself. I frankenstein dent I frankenstein Frankenstein I dent

[01:07:10] Harvey dent but they have this scene where Bruce Wayne's out with his Russian with the premium ballerina of the Russian One of them walks by the other person's table and they sit down

[01:07:20] They have this talk and it feels like it's more like also he's big footing them because it's like Harvey's like I've had to wait three weeks for This reservation. I'm really excited Bruce is like hey asshole. What's up? You little shit. I'm just poppin

[01:07:31] I'm gonna get a table next to you and Aaron Eckhart. Yeah, Herobrine's like oh, we can't do that He's like, huh, I think we should be able to I own the place It's maybe Bale's best scene in the movie though because he has this shift terrific

[01:07:41] He's kind of territorial with this woman who he's obviously been in love with his entire life Who won't date him because he's Batman and he's sort of testing him and like big footing him

[01:07:49] And then there's the moment where he starts to like kind of fall in love with dent and how he's talking about everything He's actually into it, but of course he can't totally drop the mask of

[01:07:58] Bruce Wayne and that's why he does this whole fundraiser thing of like trust me one fundraiser with my friends Right, but it's also he prickles a little bit at being where he's like is Wayne Manor on city limits and he's like yeah

[01:08:10] Shouldn't you know? Yeah, it's in God. Yeah. Yeah It's in the glades. I think he says the palace. Yes I'm trying to find the name of the of the premium Valerie. I think it's Beatrice Rosen plays her I love that she immediately is like

[01:08:24] Like just weighing in on like the debate of the day the bad look She's like this Batman. He makes a fool of you, you know hard to be dent You are hero, you know and he's like, huh Batman would be okay then she's like, huh?

[01:08:35] Perhaps she holds up the paper. Maybe you are the Cape because you're like Aaron Eckert does have Batman shin I also just like you see that chin in a fucking cow But I just like that she gets to do some expisitional dialogue, right?

[01:08:51] It sets up this dynamic where every time Bruce comes across Rachel and dent Yeah, Rachel like rolls her eyes and is like oh Bruce and then dent rolls his eyes and is like yeah Bruce and she's like wait But you don't get him

[01:09:05] Like she's rolling her eyes cuz she knows it's a put-on right and then dense rolling his eyes because he's buying it at face value

[01:09:10] And then she has to correct him be like he's actually a good guy. I can't explain to you why I'm so frustrated right now, right? but so that sort of happens when they go to the ballet and it's closed down because

[01:09:21] Wayne has constructed this alibi that he's out fucking all these ballet dancers in order to skyhook over to Laos kingdom his building. Yeah, he does the skyhook he does it and it's I max and it's great Love that scene

[01:09:37] Although I do feel like the action in that scene and then later in the climactic scene again We hear this cop complain not good at hand to hand no one's not particularly good at the one-on-one He's good at vehicles

[01:09:48] He's good at large landscapes anytime Batman's flying or standing on a rooftop the second He gets in close it's bad, but when he gets that skyhook and he's out and then the score kicks up You know yeah great

[01:09:59] It still is like just watching it on a TV nine years later anytime it cuts one of those I'm act shots you like this is truly fucking striking Just the depth and clarity of the image is unbelievable

[01:10:11] Of course, you know with every movie supposed this he's only doing more I meant some Kirk is like almost entirely right Well, I think he's just this is his thing

[01:10:19] He's because like the whole thing about I'm X has always been like you can't because the cameras are so big You can't shoot I'm X and he's always been like they shot a fucking Everest movie on I'm X cameras

[01:10:29] They can get it up there. Yeah, you can shoot my thing And the other thing is there used to be a length limit I max platters were so big I max movies could only be over a certain length

[01:10:40] So like when attack of the clones was transferred into I max they had to cut those 20 minutes of romance scenes out of it And he has boosted I max profits so much that he's like figure out how to get more platters

[01:10:50] Right figure out how to let me make longer I max movies and they've done it He says jump and they do they say how high and then they watch how high men Method men and red men. They're the stars of how high true

[01:11:04] How are they men very method in red? Men comma Red and math so you know directed how high right Bob Dylan son comes back to Gotham What's his name again? Jesse Dylan, right? Oh, it's Jacob. I'm proud of my son. He directed how high

[01:11:24] Jacob Dylan's another son, right? Yeah, he's the wall flowers. Yeah, right. I'm also proud of Jacob Who covered heroes for Godzilla soundtrack? That's my Bob Dylan dad impression. I love it the Joker the Joker reveals himself in Gotham starts

[01:11:44] Kidnapping does is that when he first kidnaps the maybe he picked up the fake Batman Starnton I people die on my work torture video and he says right I'm gonna start killing people very scary good camera work

[01:11:55] Yes, Heath did it himself that became part of the legend of this movie And there's the part where he drops into the deeper guttural voice look at me It's very scary and you go maybe I shouldn't be laughing at this Joker. Maybe I should be trembling trembling

[01:12:08] Oh, we forgot that awesome scene where Where Harvey punches the guy and steals the gun. That's a real like ura singing but I agree It's a little bit of that it's fine

[01:12:18] Yeah, I wish it was just because this movie is so committed to the realism like that there might be a little bit more of like Jesus fucking Christ pointed a gun at you and pulled the trigger he like deconstructs with the gun with one hand Oh

[01:12:34] Denti like that would be like declared king of Gotham if he did something that cool All right So that you need these here the people you need you need a judge. There's like a nice judge, but not the judge

[01:12:46] No, no, not the judge. We are all is not in this movie What are we up to three hours? David just looked at the clock with the minute you mentioned the judge. I was like oh god You need police commissioner lobe. He's back

[01:13:04] He's in it. He actually has a laugh line when he gets out the the booze you got mayor Batman well And then you've got mayor Batman well from the tick you got mayor Richard Albert from lost Nester Carbonell as Anthony Garcia the mayor of Gotham

[01:13:18] Yes, and I guess the idea of him is he's like He's kind of the mayor for like a hip new Gotham, you know is he because he's kind of like hey crime

[01:13:26] It's down things are great. Yeah, everyone else like still shitty. He's like no no, it's nice a little edge So is this Yeah, well now I'm trying to remember the exact timeline of this movie. I guess it's just the Joker starts killing people

[01:13:45] Yeah, and this case is going on there trying to put together the Rico case Which I think is gillen Hall's best scene is when she's interrogating Gillen Hall Really Gillen Hall? Well, no, but Jake is Gillen Hall and she's Gillen Hall, right?

[01:13:59] I think she's really good then when she goes back to them and she's like Rico case. I got it I'm on it. Yeah by her being a real pro agreed agreed. Yeah, and

[01:14:09] When's the fund the fundraiser is right in this part right around here? Yes, so the Joker's this lingering threat He wants Batman to unmask himself. He's like Batman is a false idol He's not the solution. He's the problem. He's made things worse

[01:14:23] Your escalation starting tonight people will die. I'm a man of my word and it doesn't reveal himself I'm gonna start killing people right, but then you have like we should say You've got like the scene where he kills gamble and he does his first

[01:14:37] Scars monologue right and then there's the big fundraiser scene where he shows up with a gun and some henchmen And he takes Rachel. Yeah, and tosses her out a window Right and does his alternate scar monologue and does his second scar monologue

[01:14:51] Seeing that Patrick Leahy is in senator Patrick Leahy of Vermont who loves Batman is every Batman movie also Heath Ledger's in that scene true he plays the Joker Richard T And Yeah, yeah, I mean

[01:15:07] It's it's a really good basic story telling trick of just like oh if you have him offer two different stories Then you can't believe anything he says no It's it's a very nice and also it lets he fled your monologue which he's good at

[01:15:18] There's that great anecdote about when Jean Wilder signed on to do Willy Wonka He demanded that he have that character introduction where he walks out Yes hobbling and then falls over does the somersault and drops the cane because he said if I do that my introduction

[01:15:30] The audience will never know whether to believe me or not, right which works really well for that movie You never know if Wonka is lying if he's friendly if he's villainous and the Joker

[01:15:38] It's the same thing where you just like don't fucking know you don't you don't fucking know right? You don't know Right because the first one it's like one of the monologues is about his wife

[01:15:46] Right one of the monologues is his father right? I think that's it right because the third one he gets cut off Yes, and that's sort of in the tradition of that character in the comic books too, right where it's always sort of been like

[01:15:57] Yes, different except sometimes they do origins for him But then they're kind of forget it Negate them or they go maybe there were two of them because the killing joke is an origin story for him

[01:16:07] He's a shitty Santa comedian right who and it's like one bad day could make anyone crazy He's working the mics with scarecrow Exactly, he's at the comedy store doing the circuit

[01:16:18] Given his time back to the room so that scene is like your first Batman Joker fight. Yeah, but it's brief It's brief and Rachel's thrown out and he jumps after her and that gives the Joker an idea

[01:16:29] Oh, he likes Rachel exactly maybe he dent and then at the same time He's like during all of this he's killing The commissioner mm-hmm who he kills with like poison drink

[01:16:43] Yes whiskey the judge puts her in bad car the judge goes in bad car and is blown up with like Playing cards, right, but there and I like that though that there's let there's still the like

[01:16:55] The Joker gimmick with every murder where it's like oh like you know But like it's not like in previous movies or cartoons where it's like Everybody's you know gets their head trapped in a fish or what?

[01:17:06] You know like the Joker has a big bit that he's doing this one. He's just a branding expert. Yes Um, he's a brand ambassador. He is a brand ambassador

[01:17:15] It's weird in the middle of the movie how he just stops and goes like why can't I get a mattress? Delivered to me in a box the size of a mini fridge Using my promo code Joker. Oh my god Ruby here all day Oh my god

[01:17:34] And then he tries to kill At the funeral for the commissioner. Yeah, he tries to suck He tries to kill the mayor this week's meals include I swear to God shut up sage risotto Everyone is sick of the bit about fucking Adrol No one cares

[01:17:54] We've done it so many times Lock the gates. Oh, that's great. That's that never gets old What this what's the show called again this oh no the marriage show blank check It's called WTF wait no glow. Oh, that's it. Don't worry fifth times the charm

[01:18:19] He he shoots the mayor yes at the funeral but Gordon takes the bullet He's dead now. Here's my biggest logic gap in the movie. Okay dead He'll never come back right even though there are a lot of scenes in the trailer of him

[01:18:35] Yeah, that later. Yes. Yeah, I remember seeing in theaters me like did they just cut out all of Gordon's stuff? No, come on. You didn't think it was dead. I thought he was dead. I thought he was dead. Did you cry?

[01:18:44] No, but he is one of my best friends There's an earlier part in the movie What's his name Lucius Fox asked Batman about I saw this changed in the things and he goes Lucius look

[01:18:56] I'm playing this one pretty close to the chest. Yes, which is not the term the term is close to the vest He's not wearing hockey vest, right it tracks, but it's not exactly what the term is right the more popular version

[01:19:07] Some podcast recently went on about this maybe Hollywood handbook then when Gordon later reveals that he is not dead Mayor Batman well says wow Gordon you do play this stuff close to the chest

[01:19:19] Yeah, even though he had never said that earlier in the movie. It's Batman who says it to Lucius Fox Yeah, but um it's a callback from a different character saying it's

[01:19:27] So that's your biggest logic hole in the movie the biggest logic hole is the Gordon plan makes no sense The Gordon fake death makes no sense. Who knows about it? What's he doing? Is kind of like the it's like that arrest development joke about how there's two

[01:19:42] Coolers yeah, and and like he's like we'll leave one cooler behind and take the real cooler And he's like but she's gonna know because I'm not gonna be right and he's like but they'll be like well You know she'll be confused and he's like it's like one second

[01:19:55] The way the movie plays it everyone seems to believe he's actually dead It seems like no one knows that he's faking his death You have the scene where they deliver the news to his family and his wife is like fuck you Batman or what I can't remember

[01:20:08] Who she yells at you know but but she was a Batman were you guys surprised? They comes back to life. Yeah, yeah Clapping yeah, I think mine did too. I think all the old British ladies went

[01:20:19] Well, then I rest my case. Yeah, it just I didn't know this was your case Yeah, DA. Yeah, D.A. Hosley I just spent the rest of my being like How did he pull that off? Why do you have to put his wife and kids through all that?

[01:20:34] It just it doesn't really make sense. He told you why he plays it close He didn't tell me that Batman told that Silence I demand Yes

[01:20:53] So because this is all leading up to because now I actually I'm trying to think about how it's supposed to play out because Right dent reveals that he is Batman. Yeah at a press conference, right? Right? Cuz they cuz yeah if Batman isn't

[01:21:10] Revealed. Yeah, the idea is I'll keep killing people bad man is revealed Rachel's like the next target It's actually start happening. They got the intel that it's gonna be Rachel. So

[01:21:19] Dent is like I'm the Batman and Bruce is at Bruce is ready to do it. He's so guilty about Gordon dying I guess that's why Nolan has it and he is also confessed to Rachel at this point because

[01:21:32] Then tells her you're the next target. She goes I need to go somewhere safe I'm gonna go to Bruce's house and he goes Trust me Bruce Wayne is the safest man to be with and Gotham City right now

[01:21:44] Trust me she goes to Bruce and Bruce is like you told me if I the day We can bone Sausage town, right exactly sausage party. I can give you a little bit of a salam Griffin's two into this

[01:22:00] Griffin's like so delighted coffee is gonna be bagel the day that I stopped being Batman Am I right? Yeah, are you on Raya yet? I'm verified on every social media platform Starve of fucking TV show

[01:22:18] That's beat fucking multiple action figures and I can't get on Raya the dating app for famous that no one's supposed to talk about Because the entire currency is that it's secret. Well, this ain't gonna help your cause

[01:22:28] Maybe I'm gonna neg Raya into accepting me. It's a good call. You're not on it No, I'm not they won't I've been wait listed for you on it Ben. Yeah Here excuse me

[01:22:40] Here's our finest fellow credit poet laureate of America you want to hear how bad it's gotten a Good friend of mine has now recently been hired to the board of approvals for Raya and even he can't get me approved who

[01:22:56] I don't know maybe let's bleep that out cuz I don't know if you Don't want people sliding into his DMs and it's cooler when When it's bleeped out because then no one will know exactly and it's like oh my god

[01:23:06] But he went to Ryan was like hey my friend Griffin. He's he's on that's a knack. They're you know famous And then I was like they still haven't accepted me. He's like they still haven't accepted him Jesus

[01:23:15] They probably just don't care. I hear they choose. I think that's what's going on well said so dent is taken into custody Correct, but as this convoy is driving him across town. Guess who should appear Ricky Ricky T jokes This is it was the centerpiece of the trailers

[01:23:35] The truck flip vehicles they talked about no ones forte like he'd fucking turned lead into gold It is great. I love the truck. What's the business that the truck is? Do you notice that it says slaughter? Yeah, it's it's like it's like a

[01:23:51] Party-claw and innocent or whatever right, but it says slaughter a party clown business Like Well, look Ben Ben to be fair for decades You've had multiple clowns crammed into two smaller vehicle. Oh shit Right and this company very progressively one clown one clown give him a whole 18 wheeler

[01:24:12] That was their whole operation. Okay, that makes more sense Benjamin J. Hosley. Is your middle name J? I have no idea what my middle name is McCormick great Benjamin M. Hosley You ever lie in that you like from this scene

[01:24:26] Oh, yeah, if you want to unfold your piece of paper He wrote this down verbatim while watching them. Yeah, so it's the SWAT SWAT driver Who's very it's a good moment played by Nikki Katz. Yep He's like what is that a rocket launcher?

[01:24:43] But it's his delivery of its fun and I suggest that Griffin say what is that a podcast? So that's what I wrote down here very identifiable if I had said that Everyone would have known which line that is

[01:24:56] Okay, now that I've got that out get lunchers the big word Zuka what if it was rocket? Podcast that might have a podcast launcher podcast podcast as I replied to Ben

[01:25:08] I love the line where he's like that's not good and then the helicopter crashes and he goes well That's not good. You got these two SWAT guys one guy's face is fully covered

[01:25:16] The other guy is Nick Katz son's mustache not playing the same character from the disguise master of disguise Maybe this character from insomnia shaved his mustache. No because as you said this is a master disguise Which means he's part of the disguising family line

[01:25:28] Oh, I see his name's all my almond dough Get the fuck out of here and never come back walk into the traffic. What do you think? I'm not totally enough for the turtle club boy

[01:25:40] The other SWAT guy's not talking Nikki Katz talking too much. What's going on? Oh, it's Jim Gordon He played this one close to the chest. Yeah faked his death Great great chase sequence. They give chase the tumbler chasing after the arm old armored

[01:25:55] SWAT vehicle chasing after the Joker everyone's chasing after everyone It's great. It's great and then the top of the bat pod. I mean like rules It's it's so good. That's good

[01:26:08] It's good like you remember like the fact that the bat pod just doing a thing like going up the wall Then he flips around and then it goes the other way. Yeah, like that got like a goddamn standing evasion

[01:26:19] Yeah, I saw my theater full of old British women and it got applause breaks I mean, it's it's so cool. It played like it was a merchandise movie

[01:26:28] It's got big tires. Yeah, you know the one I love is when he pulls out of that like underground shop shopping mall And the tire starts moving horizontally rather than vertically for the turns

[01:26:39] I love that it's just a cool vehicle the moment where it turns into the bat pod We're shaking. Yeah, it's so awesome and then it goes like goodbye Yeah, and then explodes the two kids fire the guns with their fingers. It's fun

[01:26:50] It's a fun movie. This is the height of the movie This is the movie just like it's so exciting and what I love movie two now or movie one

[01:26:59] We're at the end of movie two. Okay. I guess it's two movies really because this is the end of movie one really Yeah, I think the movies are kind of interwoven. No, of course they are not

[01:27:08] I'm not really, you know, but it's the end of the Joker section of the movie Correct sort of you know that he's really run in the table exactly because it's like the idea is the Joker kind of wants Batman to kill him Well, look, let's let's

[01:27:22] Call it what it is the Joker in this movie is a troll. Yeah, it's true. He's a head troll That's that's what's going on. You know the all right has adopted All these different pop culture figures as they're like, you know sort of

[01:27:36] Representations but but I feel like a lot of the negative aspects of culture today Yeah, whatever gamer gate whatever group you want to assign it to is very seeped in like the the Joker mentality of just like the only thing that That sucks is caring about something right?

[01:27:54] You just got to like do it for the lulls fuck everything make fun of anyone who has any stance But he's just want to watch the world burn, right? We we as we said we were gonna talk about that because that's become like the motto of

[01:28:07] A lot of annoying people in the world, but but here's the thing like I like this movie a lot I don't like it as much as most people, but I like it a lot

[01:28:16] But ever since Trump has gotten elected that line like rings in my head every single day Some men just won't watch the world Ben and there's the line says it perfect There's the line when Alfred is trying to explain to Bruce how the Joker works

[01:28:31] He's talking about the bandit No, but even before that when he says like you back them into a corner as they turn to something it does They don't understand right and it's like that's how everyone talks about the GOP right now

[01:28:40] Is they elected this guy who they thought they could control? All right, I don't want to talk about that shit moving a pass it Okay, how much more Resonant this movie is you're right

[01:28:48] But I hate comparing fucking politics that affects people's lives to movies and we're just moving a lot We don't do it a lot your point out. It's fine. I want to move past it, please I beg you it's not even that I think it's a comparison

[01:28:59] It said I think this movie actually kind of what started a lot Well, I mean I think a lot of dumb boys People want to be like the Joker people are dumb the Joker became this figure of like cool

[01:29:12] You know yeah careless. I know just live your life complete power your I mean But except it's like vine accounts of people vaping and being like I'm like the Joker Right, but also like you know You look at how like anonymous was like latching on to V

[01:29:30] For vendetta right and it was like oh It's this guy who's like fighting for freedom and then just became the Joker where it's like the only thing you're fighting against is everything

[01:29:37] Yeah, he's like it like there's no X than I choose why right? Yeah, you just got to do the opposite The but I also think within the world of Batman. Yeah, the it's so delightful to Joker the idea that

[01:29:51] Indiying yeah, the Batman's gonna kill him and then everyone's gonna be like Like some people will be like well, I think it's good that the Batman killed Joker You know like he loves that yeah

[01:30:02] Like he's delighted by the idea that his legacy is gonna be people being like I think it's good to just kill people much like Some presidents currently in office the Joker's power comes from people talking about the Joker for sure It doesn't matter if it's good or bad

[01:30:17] He likes getting an at he's the best villain. He really is I know he's great. Yeah, so good. He's such a shithead. Such a strong Fucking great goddamn. I do love that scene where the Joker is like awake at four o'clock in the morning

[01:30:31] Like tweeting at all of his haters and his assistant comes in good like Joker We have to take your phone away. Well, fuck L. O. L snowflake sad No, why so serious exclamation point exclamation point Richard T Joker in a great moment for Heath Ledger

[01:30:47] Yeah, he's standing there at the road Batman's driving towards him trucks flipped over This is my favorite ledger moment is the truck flips over and there's the long shot Unbroken of him slowly crawling out. He's so funny. He's so physically funny in that

[01:31:01] Yeah, I mean all his scenes but yeah, and then he sort of skips a little bit over Batman doesn't kill him right you miss me rolls off the bike and then my favorite bit is when he he's like

[01:31:15] I'm gonna try to take his head mask off and it zaps him Yeah, and he's so delighted by that cuz it's what he expected But it's still funny. Yeah that he designed a goddamn shot collar into his suit

[01:31:27] I really think it communicates so much of that mode because he's just like Like he's so amused by it He also likes that someone else is Bullshit so seriously branding experts because Joker doesn't care who Batman is Joker's not a person

[01:31:44] Yeah, he doesn't it's not like he's like if I know who it is then I'll be able to exploit him right He just he's just amused at the idea of everyone knowing who it is

[01:31:52] It's like you say he's a big troll. He's a big troll. He gets arrested Yes, and this is maybe this is the most common of course right Gordon's there and he's like we got you you son of a bitch

[01:32:02] Yeah, right so it's he's alive unmasked you do play a close to the chest And I have no again like you said I have no idea why Gordon really needs to be dead I guess it's just a spur. No, I don't know

[01:32:11] I don't know who knows I do like that He goes back to his family and you have the scene of his wife slapping him in the face Yeah, and it's good But you're right

[01:32:19] I mean no one wants this because he wants Gordon's family to be part of the end of the movie right But it also is nice I understand that it's there for plot machinations

[01:32:26] But it also is nice to have the movie call him out for being a fucking dickhead. That's a shitty thing to do It's a shitty thing to do. Yeah, so and he gets a wake his son up

[01:32:35] And it's like the moment that Bruce never got where his dad suddenly comes back to life They right but they arrest the Joker. Did you say the Batman save you know I saved him cool cool cool

[01:32:44] Also, I play close to the chest he plays a very close to the chest his son says that to him Yeah, he's like how do you know about these have been three separate conversations Um, okay just just the worst people

[01:32:59] Definitely a Joker. This is an edible episode of frustrated at his peak It's Friday guys, you know, it's late. I just want to go home TGI I so thank God it is the Joker I

[01:33:16] Don't even know what I'm trying to say anymore the Joker is arrested is bad guy Harvey is taken away Rachel is taken away by cops, right? They're gonna get taken off to their places to get like tied up Ah He was doing he wanted this all to happen

[01:33:32] And it's again one of those classic Nolan bits where the guys like Joker wanted to get arrested and you're like, of course And then you're like, huh? He's playing like fucking fifty thousand dimensional chess because he also

[01:33:45] Employed a crazy person that he sewed a phone bomb into his stomach Well, this is I talked about in the last episode how I loved Batman begins setting up this idea that all the inmates of Arkham Asylum had escaped and they're now gonna become these supervillains, right?

[01:33:58] And then this movie doesn't really do that but what it does do is kind of the mentally ill people the Joker's like Drawing into his circle. It's the guy at the shooting who shoots

[01:34:08] The honor guard right and and this guy with the phone in his belly and his tum-tum Yeah, he just made the guy swallow the phone. He didn't have to cut his tummy open No, I mean there's that he loves knives. He puts them in a circle

[01:34:21] No, that's a different Joker But he does have knives because there is that great line where it's like Joker's brother No ID no identification like no marks just knives and lint. That's like that's what that's great when they're lining up all Weird little knives

[01:34:35] Um, and he says how much he loves knives. Well, he can like get to know a person when you're killing him Yeah, all the little nuances right this way says yeah

[01:34:43] I know your friends better than you so and we should yeah because there is that scene where dent interrogates the crazy guy and Batman is like He's meant he like he's Like you're not getting anything. Yeah, okay But so then you have the Batman Joker scene

[01:34:57] Mm-hmm the interrogation scene a good cop bad cop routine. That's a good scene not exactly Fucking it's a good scene. That's a great scene and and Ben was saying before we started recording It is kind of incredible that that scene is like let's put two

[01:35:13] ridiculously dressed characters in a very brightly lit fluorescent room true that does not You know the lighting does not play up No, any of the strengths of those and Joker starting to look where his makeup is beginning to rub off

[01:35:25] They're even more artificial than ever. Yeah, I bet yeah You've been we were saying you can see Batman's like black makeup eyes Right usually the rest of the movie like he gets away from that and the way the Burton movies did where the Burton movies

[01:35:37] Just had to own the level of mascara. I mean it I like was like that's Christian Bale wearing a mask Yeah, like weird right adult man. Do my favorite moment of Batman Returns is yeah

[01:35:48] There's the one shot when he's gonna rip his mask off and right before he does suddenly all the black I make up is missing from around his eyes Because the movie has to be like we don't have him take I remember this right?

[01:35:59] It's just the one scene where you're like, why does he look different now? For like one second for one second before he rips. Yeah It is just funny to think about like badass like Christian Bale running and then being like fuck now

[01:36:11] I'm just get 15 minutes in the mirror. Okay, we have to we haven't gotten a two-faced So that's the scene that's the scene Michael J2 face where doaker is just saying like I am a troll You don't kill people so I want you to kill people he's clapping

[01:36:24] Right all of that then and he blows up the guys Tommy and escapes. Oh real quick I love the fashion his suit his custom suit is so good

[01:36:33] I mean Nolan's one of the best suit filmmakers we got that's very true. Yeah, if he wasn't director he'd be a great tailor Maybe he is on the side. You don't know maybe Nrista for a colon And

[01:36:47] He does he set up his new Joker game which is Harvey's at one into the city Rachel's at the other You gotta choose to save one and Joker knows he's gonna go for Rachel

[01:36:57] So he swaps the addresses so he just wants to be frustrated. He wants Batman to be frustrated troll yeah, good troll good troll and And then Rachel dies so she can join the ranks of Nolan ghosts. This is a moment I think Maggie G

[01:37:15] Really sells terrific in this scene which is also very well done by Nolan, right? With the thing where she's like, okay, okay Harvey Look, I know that he's gonna choose me and I want you to know

[01:37:28] I don't want to live without you and she's like making her noble speech about like, you know Jack I'll never let go right but then when she hears him yelling and she starts to be like wait wait

[01:37:38] I thought I was about to be saved what the fuck's going on Like in the last month before she dies. There's this little bit of selfishness Right and then but then I like that he cuts her off mid speech

[01:37:49] Yeah, and her hair blows in front of her face and everything turns into fire Now he has been lying down taking a little nap on a bed of gasoline and just like that's how it works

[01:37:59] You know how gasoline only burns what the gasoline touches and then the fire goes away Whatever two faces weird yeah do what you can man do it you can

[01:38:12] Create design in this movie, and I love that the suit is just like the one suit he has one and a half of it Is just more chart. Yep And not not the fucking time we don't like leopard print on one side pinstripes on the other

[01:38:24] Has had a chance to customize I know that's why fans wanted to face to have his own movie So that you could have a whole sequence where he goes to the tailor and rest of her Nolan Shut up

[01:38:35] All right, I have a genuine complaint though about two faces. I agree that he looks good. It's a bad guy That's quite evil. It's not a very good coin. Yeah, it's a tricky coin

[01:38:46] Here's the thing with the coin is it's a trick. He's got a trick coin. He's a trickster makes his own luck

[01:38:51] His rate did he say that in the movie dude this they're like one time when they're like like Rachel's like you can't entrust a situation like that to chance I don't

[01:39:03] She really like it's a mealy mouth line. Yeah, yeah Batman does it too. He's like would you really leave that? I Just think two-faced as animated Uh-huh It could be like 10% less grosser and I'd be a little more into it. Oh, I love how gross

[01:39:27] I do too. I like it's fixed every time I rewatch it It's an incredible I just his jawbone on the side of his face Yeah The two things that are really a lot is that the missing cheek the eye like tendons and the eye being just like

[01:39:40] whole I right yeah It's intense. Yeah, I like it I think he only gets away with it in a PG-13 Because there's really not much else in this movie. That's like gory, but it's nasty as shit

[01:39:53] I mean like again. I'm like if I was a kid and I saw this movie I really struggle with that Ben sir enough the devil's horns There he is hell yeah Right like yeah, yeah because I loved Batman Forever 2 face played by Tommy Lee Jones

[01:40:08] But that is he's purple correct It's like one half of him is Tommy Lee Jones Oscar winning actor the other half is a purple man Like half like Tommy Lee Jones half like like Jonathan Demi version of a punk kid

[01:40:22] But that's my fucking love about that guy. Yeah, and he's like I hate that character So bad and yet I love it I'm looking at it right now because he's like yeah one side of me is a suit the other side like zebra pattern

[01:40:38] The other side of me is a feature Something wild like why is that evil? It's not Anyway, this was Joker's plan all along was he was destroy Harvey Dent He wanted to prove

[01:40:50] Harvey Dent is the symbol of like Gotham's normal sea and nothing good can stay that way for long so dent either die hero or Live long enough to see yourself become the villain podcast yeah and

[01:41:04] The final crucial scene is the Joker Dent scene he's got so many nice one-on-one conversation scenes little push Yeah, where he's just goes to dent and basically sells him on like the Joker philosophy right?

[01:41:18] He's a dog chasing a tire. I was going to do if I got one. Yeah He's really he's really really good in this You know the legend which is amazing is they found this abandoned hospital that was gonna be

[01:41:31] Demolished right so they almost like let me blow it up They worked at a deal to put the Gotham signage on and blow it up for real and it's this one Tracking shot they cut into some cutaways, right?

[01:41:42] But but it's all they only had one take because they did it for real and So Heath Ledger's pushing the button and he's walking away. You know the story though, right? No go ahead He pushes the button. He's walking away the series of explosions happen

[01:41:55] That was not planned. It actually just didn't activate all at the right time He led your state in the scene and played the frustration Happen for real and then the shot continued and then he like tautles away. Yeah, because Fister told me like that was the day

[01:42:09] He brought his dad to set cool And he was like dad. I want you to see I'm a real DP Look we're doing this incredible stunt and his dad's there video village like watching with him And then the explosion doesn't go off and he's like oh fuck

[01:42:20] This was our big money shot and we can't get a second take right and we're fucked and then Heath Ledger stayed in it Yeah, and was just like if I keep on playing the frustration of the thing not going

[01:42:30] They'll be able to use it and then his reaction when the thing finally starts exploding. It's amazing It's amazing and then you cut to the helicopter shot of like the whole thing going right and they had that going the whole time simultaneously yeah

[01:42:42] but it's like those big sequences like the truck flip and The explosion They did it for real and the only place that use CGI was to remove the other cameras

[01:42:52] Right like the truck flip they have four angles up of course and a CGI the other cameras in the crew doesn't count Yeah, but that's what I agree. I mean that's I think it's not the craziest thing

[01:43:01] You've ever seen a movie, but there's something so tactile about it that makes it really That's why you think about it because of course actors engaging with those things and if I describe to you What happens in the dark night like they flip a semi you're like oh?

[01:43:12] I've seen that in a ton of movies right and if I described to you like Avengers age of Ultron or whatever It's like they lift up a city and drop it you know doesn't feel like anything. It doesn't look like anything It's flubber shrug

[01:43:24] Stupid at flubber was actually the planned villain for the third movie until no one changes my no and Robin Williams I'm gonna play flubber sad Then so what do you think of the dent?

[01:43:33] You know that the dent part like the last 25 minutes of the push this arc along which is like dent Snaps goes on a killing spree takes out everyone responsible for the death of Rachel all the corrupt cops It's a it's a fast character change right

[01:43:49] Is it big moves and a movie fast because the movies got places to go and he's got his gimmick of the coin It's almost like it's almost like you could say he's got he went or he's like was too faced

[01:44:00] Yeah, okay, so can I throw 15 comedy points? Can I just throw out there's the thing at beginning of the movie where he said Do we have another name you have for me isn't it weird also the Gordon's like well? I wouldn't know they keep on calling it MCU

[01:44:13] Yeah, oh no do they Major crimes unit that's Gordon's thing right which is also the Marvel's universe. It feels like calling the shot in advance anyway Patina Tina Anyway He says like well didn't they have another name for me down at like MCU and it was well

[01:44:32] I don't know I would know about that again a great Gary Oldman perfect in this movie delivers that line perfectly and they cut right out of it Nothing about him seems to faced until he becomes to face. He seems like a pretty on-the-level guy

[01:44:45] I think the joke about calling him Harvey to faces. It's like he's such a sunshiney I believe in Harvey Dent public campaigner, but then behind the scenes He doesn't like these cops because he was the IA guy sure

[01:44:58] The idea was that he made his name and in the police department as an internal affairs investigator Rusty corrupt cops right so the cops don't like bad cops don't like him cuz he's a good guy And then he's got that scene sure and they are bad

[01:45:10] Thank you bad versus good. Yes. Yes the original fight There's that scene before the Joker scene where Gordon visits him and is like I'm sorry about you getting half your face melted off I'm hearing you don't want surgery or painkillers like well apology not accepted

[01:45:30] Right off the bat let me tell you I do not accept your apology feeling pretty fucked right now And I am a Christian scientist so I will know I will not have any what if that was his heart I'm kicking at Jim Hansen style

[01:45:45] It's like you sure you don't want any painkillers is like no they put this slight piece of gauze over So that no bugs fly into it. They do a good job of the gauze I also like the first time he turns his face

[01:45:55] So you don't see it you cut away immediately and they don't cut back until he turns But you do see something for like half a second and you're like Because the movie kept a total lid on Too Faced his design in this not only his design his

[01:46:07] Existence in the movie. You just knew it was dent. Yeah, you just do dent was in the movie right So I remember like the anticipation of like what's Too Faced gonna look like how is he gonna design this and fucked up twisted

[01:46:22] What his red his face is red oh it is you're right red he has the half you know Thought you would did half the little kids. That's the great Dan Harmon Rob Shrob bit which was after they saw a Batman forever Rob Shrob in the car ride home

[01:46:38] Just kept on doing an impression of Too Faced where anytime he was asked anything he'd come with the answer That was two of something. How do you like your coffee with half and half? What do you offer dinner?

[01:46:51] They're funny or the nest yeah, they're the best they're the original two friends and then I don't love the only thing I really don't like in the dark night is the last scene is the showdown look I think but with fuck there's also the fucking fairies. Oh

[01:47:11] Right, there's so much shit in this movie. There's a lot shit. I mean look I think this movie it does a lot of pushing all right. We're doing okay Yeah, we're fine. It does a lot of pushing it pushes things at an accelerated speed

[01:47:23] You know it pushes characters a little beyond logic because it's it is mostly a movie about ideas It's sort of him breaking down the entire idea the relationship between crime and protection and there's two

[01:47:37] Climaxes they're sort of about the same thing but on one scale. It's very big and one scales very personal Like the fairies is like Joker's whole philosophy of like these people will tear each other apart

[01:47:47] Right just give them the least push and I would argue don't I would argue that Nolan is not Despite the fact he does it a lot the best at building Simultaneous action through cross-cutting does love to do it

[01:48:02] Inceptions the one it works in best because that's the design of the entire Right, but I feel like in some of this you're just sort of like and it happens to him Batman begins where it's like You're cutting back to Gordon in the tank and it's like well

[01:48:14] This isn't as exciting as the Roshal ghoul stuff indeed like he wants to pull off some Empire Strikes Although you do have Gary Eldman going like yes, I gotta get me one of these right But that's that's my buddy

[01:48:26] Rates and Tori is big like complain about Nolan's Batman movies Is he keeps on trying to pull off that like Empire Strikes back thing where he's got three simultaneous planes of action? Yeah, and they build upon each other. Well, that's what Dunkirk's like to

[01:48:38] We even seen it yet, but it takes place in several different temporalities three my friend Yes, one not two not four three temporary hashtag the three temporalities two friends to three temporalities yeah, um I

[01:48:52] Like the fairy thing and I don't really like the it's a moral quandary the idea is the fairy thing It doesn't work, but with dent the Joker's thing has worked He has ruined this man and this therein lies the ethical dilemma

[01:49:06] Because the public perception of dent falling right the damage Diagnably it should be that he's a movie about branding They understand it will be bad for the Gotham City brand branding if if dent ends up being a bad guy

[01:49:19] So instead Batman's the bad guy because he seems like a bad guy. He's a crazy person who dresses up like a bat He's also like Madonna like he needs to reinvent

[01:49:27] He's been doing this Batman good guy kick for a couple years and he needs a new kind of like brand revival It's a reboot And then it's really important that Alfred burns the letter and then everyone thinks it's a right-wing movie because Batman designs a global surveillance system

[01:49:41] Like by almost by accident. Oh, right. We've got all this there's too much going on in this movie But he destroys it. He does destroy it this movie. I just remember there were a lot of takes like Batman right wing

[01:49:51] Yeah, but the movie ends up like it's he keeps on flirting with Right wing tendencies and he always stops himself just short of sure like I think the movie is trying to dismantle What he types of thinking the paranoia that will lead to

[01:50:07] Arch insane conservative, right? What'd you want to say Ben? I agree with you Well, it reminded me of An insomnia where that's the whole thing of like if I get caught being corrupt and all the criminals are gonna get released

[01:50:23] Yeah, does that ever happen though? Yeah, I don't really like yeah If you're a DA and you have to retry we've covered a weird amount of movies that have that as plot point What's the other one the judge? Yeah, you're right. Yeah also speed racer I

[01:50:40] Feel like it sort of functions in a way where it's like this is commonplace. I don't think it's that commonplace That's why it's like no But it happens, you know for coppers, you know corrupt then then you can you know say like hey this evidence is

[01:50:53] Fruit of the poisonous tree and then like you know Yeah, you can maybe get to work on getting your guy out or whatever that happened with the staircase

[01:51:01] Have you guys seen the staircase? Yes, but let's not talk about it because oh my god. It's great. Yeah, it is it is great Is there anything else though Apart from the box of his game and all this yeah

[01:51:14] I mean yeah, I did the final moment which had everyone like roaring for a sequel, but it kind of You also can tell yeah that that he was like this is kind of the point I want to make I had his idea

[01:51:27] He does have the Joker say like We're gonna do this forever right which I remember when that happens in the theater everyone the audience goes like fuck Like oh Yeah, I just remember the audience like just kind of like dropping when that happens just because it's like

[01:51:43] Oh, that's never gonna happen that No, it's a really sad moment. You're right. Yeah, of course you're like and that's the last Yeah thing we get from Heath Ledger. Hey, I'm upside down. It's so good. Yeah It was a good actor. Yep

[01:51:56] It was he was a great actor No, no bit there. No, no bummer. Yeah, I remember I was like very very hardcore into Ledger should beat Hoffman that year for Best Actor 2005 and

[01:52:11] Phil's here Hoffman's like my favorite actor ever pretty much. I mean it's Keaton and Hoffman are my two guys Your guys Keaton Hoffman great but I just thought Ledger and Brooke backs like next level shit and within

[01:52:25] The the Hoffman catalog in which I like pretty much all of his performances Capote is the showiest but one of the less interesting ones for me, right and Yeah, I like I always I was like

[01:52:37] I was still smart and from the fact that he had lost that Oscar and then of course the second this comes out It kind of felt inevitable of like this is this guy who we kind of realized too late after writing him off as this like failed

[01:52:48] Teen star was actually kind of one of the most interesting actors we had and now he gave this iconic indelible performance in this movie that like broke

[01:52:56] The culture he's gonna win the Oscar and it was just this inevitable thing like when the Oscar it comes out in July and For the rest of the year anyone else who came out and had a good supporting performance

[01:53:04] I was like, but what does it matter? Heath Ledger is gonna win There's zero chance. They don't give it to Heath Ledger what you did you did My argument I really do think he would have won even if you agree

[01:53:12] I always thought that argument was done that people said he's only winning it was such a Yeah, I bet of course, you know, it's a hypothetical. It's hypothetical, but I think you know The Dark Knight was released to critical acclaim. He's a silent guardian or Dark Knight

[01:53:27] He rides away. He takes the blame. He takes the fall. He's gonna be the bad guy Alfred burns the letter Gordon smashes the thing Right the computer sometimes you reward someone's faith and

[01:53:39] Lesser hands it would feel like too much of a sequel toss up and it does make you excited about what you imagine the next chapter could be But it quickly became very clear that Nolan was more interested in

[01:53:50] The idea of ending a movie on such a broken place than actually trying to make the next movie Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think he might have had an idea for a movie if Ledger was around I think so too

[01:53:59] I just know that he didn't really have an idea for a movie once he wasn't and we'll talk about that in two weeks We will um box office game No rush. I know I there's something else. I want to say what do you want to talk about?

[01:54:12] This movie came out. I got great reviews Yeah, oh yeah some people who gave it bad reviews as happens when you have more than one film critic in the universe This is another thing this movie kind of everyone lost their fucking minds at these people

[01:54:24] I mean not everyone but like a committed group of internet assholes This was like the start of people saying possessive and territorial about the movies How could how dare you fuck with the Dark Knights rotten tomatoes rating or whatever?

[01:54:36] You know, I mean this is the whole thing. I find so interesting about the Lego Batman movie I'm not gonna go into a whole spiel But I think Lego Batman movies a movie about bad fan culture because Batman has a little weirdly been this litmus test for

[01:54:48] I mean or at least like the Lego Batman is kind of a take on that too right on like the idea of like your perfect Batman Right well and Lego Batman as a character is like a guy who misinterprets Batman sure darkness right no

[01:55:03] Doesn't want to show vulnerability wants everyone to understand how serious and badass he is Yeah, but why does that have to be the number one movie of the year for you because it's the best film up here?

[01:55:11] I see interesting point. No, but it's also it's a movie designed for me Let's be honest. It's a movie starring toys about Batman deconstruct. I'm I even having this pop culture conversations

[01:55:23] Boy, but but that was the start of that Batman's always been this weird kind of like everyone likes Batman But people like Batman for different reasons

[01:55:31] And a lot of no, it's just that reaction that you see in 08. Yeah, like by the time that it's happening with Batman vs Superman It's like turned into something even more disgusting

[01:55:40] But it was annoying and gross and it and Nolan bros as well, you know, it kind of spawns that whole movement These people who hound critics just about like criticizing Christopher Nolan right and falls into this weird category of like, you know

[01:55:54] In this age of like extreme anti-intellectualism. How did this icy British man? Who likes makes these movies true devoid of emotion who's not like a big personality right like Deconstructing human behavior become like the champion of all bros in the same way that like the Wachowskis

[01:56:11] Made these films that like spawned like the red pill movement anonymous For sure, you know, it's it's this odd odd situation This movie does change a lot of stuff and the other big thing it changes is everyone thinks

[01:56:23] This is gonna be the one that breaks the gas glass ceiling and becomes the superhero blockbuster It's the best picture nomination It's getting WGA DGA all that shit all that shit and then Oscar morning comes up and it gets them the ledger nomination obviously

[01:56:38] It gets a original adaptive screenplay does it I remember it being snubbed Snubs and flops. I think it was snubbed and flubbed gets a lot of technicals I mean it ends up getting like eight nominations, but I remember you got seven nominations in it one two

[01:56:54] Sound editing and ledger right Let's see Looking but that was the last year it was five nominees and that you're right. Yeah, so it was right sound editing Symmetography and fister your man fister editing art direction makeup sound mixing visual effects

[01:57:09] But yeah, no majors right apart from ledger was the one and it got that and that was sort of like an easy You know law of course But that year also didn't get any golden globe nominations like there was some apart from ledger

[01:57:20] There was are always weird though. Yeah, but they are sure they can be predictable sure But that was the year I mean there was Grand Torino Wally and Dark Knight Dark Knight Principal among them where these three very big Reviews and people thought they were all and

[01:57:41] Nixon got a best picture nomination right and it was this disconnect thing of like people want to see their movies reflected It became this fans versus the ratings were down too. So what do they do Ben? 10 nominees 10 best picture nominees because of this movie

[01:57:56] There's another one. There's a fourth movie that was a big hit that came out that year That I can't remember that would have gotten nominated if there had been 10 films anyway breaks the Oscars breaks everything box office game it breaks records at the opening number 156 158

[01:58:15] 0.4 I was gonna get seven. I thought it was too high What a crazy opening weekend pirates had previously been number one I think at 130 for something like that that had to turn spider-man which was 114

[01:58:28] But yeah, that was a big jump up especially because the first movie had made 200 in total So I'm moving to make three fourths of that. No, I know it makes weekend first 533

[01:58:39] Domestic and there was a real arms race of like is it gonna catch up to Titanic people were seeing it multiple times It was a movie that people were seeing If you hadn't seen it I max the first time you had to go back a second time

[01:58:50] It's worldwide number is bad because it did not do any business in China Yeah So and that was kind of the beginning of studios realizing like you can never do this again You need to for your movie that you want to conquer the box office like

[01:59:02] Rankings all time you need to have a big strategy in China, but even Dark Knight Rises like did much better Oh, yeah, this was like the last major American blockbuster That wasn't a huge worldwide blockbuster

[01:59:13] But it's all make a billion dollars worldwide number one the Dark Knight 158 number two is a new movie Opened as counter programming to the Dark Knight. It was one of the biggest hits of the year

[01:59:24] It remains one of the top ten highest grossing films in Britain of all time mom. Yeah, correct It was number one for ever In Britain in Britain. It was the number one film for like Seven years period full stop. Yeah, I think was to throw him by skyfall

[01:59:43] Yeah, I think sky falls number one. I can't remember and Star Wars might be number one even I don't know but mommy open to 27 mil we got a sequel coming up here. We go again. That's right Great title made 144 domestic. That's a crazy multiplier and worldwide Go Kastrin

[02:00:00] 609 million dollars. Yeah crazy. So it made 76 percent of its money outside of America. Not number three Is a superhero movie in its third week of release It has made a hundred and ninety one million dollars

[02:00:17] Hancock correct. I was gonna get you know with superhero movie. No cuz it's like a twisted No, cuz I was remembering I think well, let me say I don't want to I don't want to call this shot too quick

[02:00:28] Number four is a great film that I love that's wonderful stars a wonderful man who's a special friend of mine It's made 43 million dollars in two weeks on its way to a hundred million dollars It was a surprise summer sleeper hit

[02:00:43] Hundred right on the nugget. He's a good friend of your took advantage of a new medium That would later become a huge box office boost next year 3d correct And it contained a line in its trailer that is is so good

[02:01:01] Is it during the center of the earth 3d? We're still falling I Forgot that Brennan Frazier is a good friend of yours love him number five That was when Brennan Frazier had the signal boost because he had been off the map and then he had mummy

[02:01:16] Mommy three and that the same year hundred million grossers and they went like Frazier's back And then he immediately makes free vengeance. Yes, who wants a wee? Number five have been number one the week before and

[02:01:29] Completely the bottom fell out of it golden army 70% drop one of the worst scheduling decisions of all time It opens really big big improvement on the first movie great movie slaughtered by dark night never never recovers never recovers great movie

[02:01:42] Love that movie. I need to rewatch it. I didn't like it when I saw that when it came out Oh, are you an idiot? It has been argued. All right other movies Wally

[02:01:52] My good friend Wally nice guy Wally the robot a new movie that week Space chimps. Oh, yes Animated film I believe yeah, I believe Andy Sandberg plays a character named Ham

[02:02:03] Great you got one of the champ him the champ. We got one of those surprise hits of 2008 wanted Yeah, very surprising hit. Yeah weird little movie weird movie What movie in which they weave tapestries that tell them who to murder correct bended bullets

[02:02:19] You got it in one those bended bullets You've also got get smart which everyone forgets was a huge hit. Yep and is really bad Oh such a stinker They were threatening to make a sequel for a while after that because they were like but it did well

[02:02:32] But kind of one of those early the rock is funny movies. Yeah, you want to hear something really funny about that movie? So entertainment weeklies like big summer preview Rock was the cover guy. How much this is short

[02:02:43] This is short forget smart and the big deal in that profile was he had slimmed down like he had lost 60 pounds of muscle. I realized I don't need to be huge anymore I think it was holding me back a little as a movie star

[02:02:55] I want to be a little more relatable and he does two movies where he slimmed down and then decides to be the biggest man in history No, I'm a giant nevermind and then he breaks through. Yeah because fast five. Yeah, and then kung fu panda meet Dave

[02:03:08] Yeah originally called Starship Dave a much better title Indiana Jones kick kidridge an American girl Sex in the cities hanging out there went on a date to see that movie Really That's correct. Yes, I'm good wrong but yet both of them

[02:03:26] The Incredible Hulk and Iron Man are both in the top 20. Okay? Yeah, that's all I'm done Done I mean, I'm not gonna do a full merchandise by late, but I just want to say what these three Nolan Batman movies

[02:03:42] Yeah, are pointedly not very toyetic. No, they got some cool vehicles Cumbler school right that's something the big cool, right? But so the toy company is like it's Batman. He's like the biggest selling character in the history of boys toys

[02:03:55] They have I say boys toys again boys toys they had to develop full lines if you just want to do a Google search of like the the main Mass market dark night toys. They just come up with these ridiculous like

[02:04:07] Body Luge Batman and it's a Christian Bale Batman painted purple and his arms and legs have wheels on them So his whole body can be a luge

[02:04:15] It's just very funny to imagine those toy designs ending up in the plot of a Nolan film can't see these but it's great Do Google search I'll add it to the reddit or something. I don't know Yeah put it in the reddit Fuck you Fuck you

[02:04:29] Do you want to say goodbye to our nice fans and all of our friends? Hey, look after doing this great episode about the dark night. Yeah, I mean like this episode is real tired guys I'm so tired and no one should ever make a TV show. Yep

[02:04:41] That had been said August 25th watch the tick on Prime Video It's gonna be great. I'll probably be over saturated by the point this episode comes out. I'll be on

[02:04:49] Too many subway posters. I don't agree. I can't wait to say that's gonna be the weird thing for me It's gonna be great. I already got the invite to press day to interview you. Did you really? Yeah, are you doing it?

[02:05:00] No, yeah, right you know what talk to you Can I do enough can I go in David's place please and well like like not a hill he'll like pretend He's me I was talking to Sonia

[02:05:11] custom future guest on this area about how she's had to like recluse herself from yeah all tick-pressive I'm not right about no tick God I fucked myself up by being friends with all the entertainment writers in New York

[02:05:22] I think you made this joke before but it's true. Hey Shirley Lee interviewed you my good friend Shirley Lee Who is not your friend yet? I had only met her once in a professional capacity before she interviewed me and then she

[02:05:32] Was at your birthday. She's absolutely incredible. She dubbed me breaking big Yes, and entertain weekly is it list surely lives to make jokes that make me just just collapse in fury Like at how bad they are so I would I mean that's my ideal guess

[02:05:46] That's what I'm saying. She needs to be on the podcast. Well team up Yeah, because our thing in slack used to be she would put the emoji for leaves Every time she made a bad joke because the idea would be she'd be like she's she's leaping

[02:05:57] I mean, I love this. It sounds like a regular Richard T Joker. Love surely well Thank you for listening. Please remember to rate review subscribe big. Thanks to and for good over on our social media account

[02:06:09] Pat Reynolds and Joe Bowen for doing our artwork Lee Montgomery for our theme song. Please check out Reddit dot blankies comm I never remember if the blankies comes first the reddit comes first But it's one of the two whatever I don't know figure it out

[02:06:22] I think it's the blankies come some real nerdy shit there. I'll post some pictures of my favorite weird Sort of Aesthetically clashing Nolan Batman toys. Why was that something so difficult for me to get out? I don't know. I don't know but as always and And as always

[02:06:46] Plane it very close to the chest Brown Blue Ready. Yeah, I've been ready my whole life My cocaine my cocaine You cross the line first Okay, Michael Michael Kane Was an outbreak I can't put that at the end of the episode you can this is you can't

[02:07:19] That oh that not good. Okay. I'm gonna do a good Joker. Oh My god. All right. All right That you could put it me in there Fine you can do it