The Fabelmans

[00:00:01] Blank Check with Griffin and David, Blank Check with Griffin and David Don't know what to say or to expect, but we're shy with Blank Check Pods, cast, it will tear you in two! You have to do the sound of like, the, PODS, cast, rip this shirt!

[00:00:33] Uh, good job. Thank you. We only have trailer quotes to go off of on the page right now. Yeah, well, we're doing this in advance of release. Mm-hmm. Also, I don't know that I could tell you.

[00:00:42] I just took a big swig of seltzer, so I'm trying to like, burp off mic. He's settling. Podcasts are, what's the line? Movies are dreams? Yeah, here, look, I can run through here. If you stop making podcasts, it'll break your mother's heart.

[00:00:57] A thing no one has ever said. Yeah, right. Do you always have to be the center of the podcast? Some people might ask. Podcasts are dreams that you never forget. There you go, that's the one I was thinking of.

[00:01:08] Right. You can't just podcast something, you also have to take care of it. It's more important than your hobby. Can you stop calling podcasting a hobby? Good. Good? In this family, it's the scientists versus the podcasters.

[00:01:25] Podcasts will give you crowns in heaven and laurels on earth, but also will tear your heart out! Podcasting is no game! Podcasting is dangerous as lion's mouth. It'll bite your head off! I don't know, I'm out of that. Now get the fuck out of my podcast!

[00:01:39] It'll be our secret podcast, just yours and mine. She says that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know what I love? Fablemans? This movie? Yay! You like the movie! I was pretty fucking in love with this thing. Introduce our podcast, then I have something to ask you.

[00:01:57] This podcast is called Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin. I'm David. And it is a podcast about filmographies, directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want.

[00:02:10] Sometimes those checks clear, sometimes they bounce baby. Now whenever a filmmaker we've covered in the past has a new film come out, we loop back around to catch up with them. Yep. Beep beep, honk honk. And we cover the complete second half of Steven Spielberg's career.

[00:02:26] A career so big that we broke it in half and we have yet to go back around to the first half. Yeah, we should do it. At this point I almost wonder if it's our like Doughboy's McDonald's where it's like that's how we end the show.

[00:02:37] No, we're never ending the show. Since we did the podcast on him, he has released three movies, is that correct? Five? Five? Am I wrong? The Post? Yeah, The Post. Ready Player One, West Side Story, The Fablemans. Is there one other one? This is the fourth?

[00:02:54] Is it four? It's four. I feel like there's one more, but maybe I'm wrong. I forgot about one of those. West Side Story. I guess I didn't forget about it. But yeah, no, it's just four because we ended our series on the BFG. Oh, okay. Okay.

[00:03:08] A firecracker ending if there ever was one. BFG! But yeah, since then, our man Steve has produced four films. Some of the directors we've covered have produced zero. Very true. Yeah. Some of them have died. Oh, okay. Excuses, excuses. But yes, Cameron Crowe, no new films.

[00:03:25] No new films on the horizon. Although now apparently he wants to make a Dazzler movie. No, he doesn't. Did you read that fucking thing? No. What thing? There was a headline that was like, Cameron Crowe wants to make a Dazzler film for Marvel starring Taylor Swift.

[00:03:38] And I was like, what is this? That sounds like an AI auto-generated. So then I read the interview and they're like, would you ever direct a superhero movie? And he's like, I don't know. You pitch me one. Right. Like a Dazzler movie with Taylor Swift.

[00:03:51] And he's like, sure. He doesn't say sure. He actually just goes, he just like makes a noise and they're like, he confirms it. Yeah. In talks with Kevin Feige right now. But no new Crows. No new Crows. Nancy's finally making a new movie. But no new Nancy's.

[00:04:07] Yeah. M. Night's been keeping it up. Yeah. We got one new Wachowski. Yeah. M. Night's been the most prolific we've gone back to, right? We've only had one new Ang Lee. I mean, I think Spielberg might be the most prolific. M. Night, we ended on The Visit.

[00:04:22] So we've done... Split, Glass and Old. Okay. So then it is Spielberg. Split, Glass and Old! Right. M. Night will tie him with Knock at the Door. Hasn't been a new Bigelow. No. There's been a new Nolan or two. There's been one.

[00:04:36] All I have for you is a word. Tenet. Loverhoven did a movie. He did. James L. Brooks, still quiet. Uh-huh. Kind of sounds like another guy who might never make a film ever again. Brad Bird did a movie. He did.

[00:04:50] Ang Lee has done new movies, but has been quiet. Yeah. Tim Burton has been making a Wednesday Addams show for Netflix for the last year. Thank God for that. Michael Mann finally working on something. Yes. Miyazaki Long at work on something. Jonathan Demme, lazy. Lazy bones. Just kidding.

[00:05:08] May he rest in peace. Respect to the great man. Miller made a new movie and he's making another one. Yeah. Efron. David's checking his watch. Where's my movie, Nora? No, Efron, get back to work. Gina Prince-Bythewood made a movie. Zemeckis. It's a shame. Well, he has a shame.

[00:05:28] He hasn't made anything. It's a shame that he actually hasn't made anything and I found out retroactively the last five episodes of our miniseries maybe don't exist anymore. Clements and Musk are supposedly retired, although occasionally there's rumors they're working on something. Yes. Elaine May.

[00:05:42] Yeah, that Dakota Johnson movie coming soon. Definitely going to happen. I love it. John Singleton, sadly dead. John Carpenter retired but gives four interviews a week about how he loves video games and basketball. And then people are like, what do you think about horror movies?

[00:05:56] He's like, I don't know. Move on. Next question. The guy's like, okay, do you like Gears of War? Gears of War is so good. He talks for 10 years. He did that Godzilla marathon on Shout TV, which was pretty cool. Yeah. I mean, he's cool to be clear.

[00:06:10] Gene Campion made a new movie. Yes. We ended on her. We ended on her. Sam Raimi is working on something new. Yes, we heard it's a public knowledge. Yeah, the magic movie. Is that public? It is. Okay.

[00:06:25] Sam Raimi is by all accounts remaking Magic, which is a 70s horror movie starring Anthony Hopkins, but an evil ventriloquist dummy. And it is very exciting just in that it is a low budget return to horror. Low budget-ish.

[00:06:40] It sounded like a thing he started out developing as a producer and now has decided to take over as director. Right. Bob Fosse is directing a Dark Hawk movie for Marvel. Stanley Kubrick is doing a reboot of the Real Steel franchise. Real Steel Revolution. Yeah. So, Steven Spielberg.

[00:06:58] Yes. To stay busy. And you know what? Even for how busy he stayed, he's been even a little less prolific in the five years since we covered him than he has been for most of his career. The pandemic certainly adds a space there. I guess, but barely, honestly.

[00:07:14] He used to be a clockwork once a year, if not two a year guy. He would do some... No, he would often be once a year or if he did a header back to back, then he might take a year or two.

[00:07:27] But the thing with him is he's in his, what I like to call, fuck it phase. Which, like, so we end on the BFG, which is him, I feel like, still being like, I'm Steven Spielberg. I make these kinds of movies. The BFG, like, oh, Steven Spielberg.

[00:07:43] It's about dreams. It's about children. A little bit of the one for me, one for them thing of like, my tastes are maturing, but every once in a while I should go back to the Amblin well and make a classic Spielberg movie.

[00:07:54] Since then, I feel like he's been in his fuck it phase. So, The Post is like one of the most fuck it movies where he's like, I don't like Donald Trump. I don't like this sort of like, you know, anti-truth thing that's going on.

[00:08:05] Tom Merrill, want to knock one out? A script lands on his desk on a Thursday. They're filming by Monday. I'm in post on Ready Player One. Like, they're handling the Zemeckis Cube and all that. So, like, you guys want to just fuck around?

[00:08:19] God, that's called the Zemeckis Cube. You're trying so hard to get me to rewatch Ready Player One. And anytime you invoke any specific of the movie, it works against your campaign. I'm trying to write an article about Steven Spielberg right now.

[00:08:30] And Ready Player One is certainly a huge part of it because Ready Player One, obviously, is him being like, look at this world I've created. Hmm. Hell! And then it ends with him being like, guys, I'm not going to—you can have it, but can you just like,

[00:08:49] just like maybe use it like twice a week? Yeah. Just go outside. Sometimes kiss a lady. Sometimes. Even if she's so horribly disfigured. Kiss a lady. The thing that happens all the time whenever defend Ready Player One a great film.

[00:09:04] And of course, talk about Olivia Cooke having a small port Weinstein stain on her face. Disgusting. Horrible. Yeah. What is she like now? What is it? It's, um, what's the— What? You know, suffagato or whatever the, uh— Come on, the viral clip—

[00:09:18] This is what? This is House of the Dragons press? Yeah, you know, where she was— House of the Land of the Dragons. Where Emma Darcy's like, I like this drink. And Olivia Cooke goes, oh, stunning. She has one of the world's great accents. Yes, she does.

[00:09:30] Anyway, West Side Story, that felt like Spielberg being like, I've never made a musical. I want to do it. I'm getting old. Like, and I want to remake one of my favorite movies. Fuck you. This is what's interesting. And the Fableman's is like, my parents are dead.

[00:09:42] Time to talk about the darkest secret in my life. Now, when this movie gets announced, I think you and I, a lot of people went, fuck, is he retiring? This feels like the final film you make, right?

[00:09:55] And you and I said, do you think it's just that he wants to make it while he still has his fastball? Not that he's done, but it also like, for the first time in a long time, there is not a clear next Spielberg movie on the horizon. Yeah.

[00:10:11] Even with the gap of West Side Story and that release getting delayed, Fableman's gets announced and is shooting before West Side Story comes out. Right, because it was once he—he begins work on the Fableman's once the pandemic begins.

[00:10:23] He's a guy who's always like prepping one movie while he's posting the last. Classically. And the next one's filming before the previous one comes out.

[00:10:31] And now there are like a couple things he's sort of gotten loosely attached to, but it's even less than he usually flirts with and no clear next film. Sure. Do we—what is the thing he's working on right now? Do we know?

[00:10:47] The most recent thing that was announced, because Spielberg will just show interest in a lot of things. One of the things he's sort of, right, semi-attached to. The most recent thing I believe that was announced as an interest was the—the Bullet.

[00:10:59] Yeah, I don't want him to do that. I don't either. But then again, he's in his fuck it phase in every respect. He's in his fuck it phase and he's like, I want to do something based off the books rather than remake the movie or whatever.

[00:11:09] But then you look at his IMDb and you look at the things that are like listed as in development. Yeah, yeah, yeah. IMDb, of course, not the most reliable source. It sort of just throws everything in there.

[00:11:18] But they're mostly the things that he's abandoned at some point in the last 10 years. So there's the Pope movie. The Pope movie was the one that just they never seemed to be able to crack.

[00:11:26] And it was so much that they couldn't find the right actor to play young Mark Rylance that they did this like nine-month search. Well, then they—they shrunk Mark Rylance using a time machine. But then it was hard to make him big again. They couldn't go back.

[00:11:38] It took forever. Question, what kind of Pope was it? Of Rome, you know, Bishop of Rome. Like, is he old? Is he young? Is he big? Is he small? Hot Pope. Cold Pope. Big Pope. Yeah. Just like that. Pope-o.

[00:11:53] Where it's like, we have a Pope! And then it's just like, poof! One Pope, two Pope, red Pope, blue Pope. That's right. Green eggs and Pope. Yeah. No, it's about a kidnapping of a Pope, right? It was called The Kidnapping of Edgardo Mortata.

[00:12:10] And no, I believe it was about like a young Jewish boy who was kidnapped and raised as a Christian forcibly. It's about some like true 19th century religious story. And I believe Rylance was going to play the Pope. So this could do with Rylance and Oscar Isaac.

[00:12:25] And they couldn't cast the kid. Yeah. And then West Side Story ends up sort of leapfrogging it. And the thing with Spielberg is that it always feels like he has all these things on the burners. Yes.

[00:12:39] And then if something gets hot because he's Steven Spielberg, it can come together very quickly because he can attract the top talent. So he can get actors and that only helps you get everything else you need. Once he makes up his mind, the thing hits the ground running.

[00:12:53] He has the most committed, long running set of collaborators so he can just spool up quickly. Yes. Everyone can start pre-producing. We can start designing stuff and finding locations and getting ready. He's a fucking machine. But even like when I was looking at sex machines.

[00:13:11] Well, remember we used to do this? Remember when we said when we picked a director, we theorized what their sex life was like? Yeah. Why did we do that? I don't know. Bad? So this movie, you're like, fuck, is he winding down? Is this a final film?

[00:13:27] Is he stepping away? He's been doing a lot of interviews recently for this movie. And he said like pandemic hits. West Side Story is now going to get pushed a year.

[00:13:39] His whole family, all his children, his many children who had scattered to the ends of the earth all come back, move back home. He's with his wife and his children all day. And he's like. Which sounds nice. I'm stir crazy. I like working.

[00:13:54] Yeah, he films a collaborative social. That's what he said. That's very interesting. He's like, I'm so social and I'm always like in meetings, in planning. I'm always talking with people collaborating. It's so fun for me.

[00:14:06] It makes sense that he doesn't like these gaps in between movies that he constantly wants to be in these conversations. Because if I were him. Take it easy. Take it easy. It's sleazy. I just be like, you know what?

[00:14:19] Deposit all the checks except for the ones I get for Transformers. I'm still rich. I'm going to go live on an island. The Transformers checks for him are the equivalent of Jay Leno not spending his Tonight Show money. Everything else. That's the nut. Transformers day to day.

[00:14:34] Do you guys know the Universal Studios thing? No, I don't know anything about this. You, David. This is a quick anecdote and you will like it. Did you see him dissing Warner Brothers by the way? Yeah, we're going to dig into all this. Okay.

[00:14:47] When Universal decides to expand and become a direct competitor with Disney, not just a backlot tour of a full theme park, right? They're like the biggest move we can make is locking in Spielberg. Several of the highest grossing films are Universal, Amblin, Spielberg movies.

[00:15:02] We want them in the park but not only that. We want his endorsement. We want his sort of creative guidance. Spielberg's contract is that he gets $20 million a year from Universal. In perpetuity. Honestly, he probably deserves it.

[00:15:20] He probably makes them 10 times that amount of money just on his catalog. Well, when they opened it was like E.T., Jaws, Jurassic. And now even as things have changed, it's still Jurassic World. It's still Transformers which he produced. There's so much of his shit there.

[00:15:39] Do you remember when he was going to make a movie called Robo-pocalypse? Really close to happening. Michael Bay maybe took it over. Yeah, Drew Goddard's script and it was Anne Hathaway and Chris Hemsworth. I don't know.

[00:15:52] That's the thing. You look at Sandy B now and the in-development projects are mostly graveyard of things he ended up not making that it feels like he's probably not going to circle back to. Yeah. He gave up Gershwin. To who?

[00:16:08] Well, no, I'm sorry. There was Bernstein and Gershwin he was both interested in. He gives up Bernstein to Cooper, obviously. And then there was the Gershwin-Zachary Quinto thing that was announced right after the first Star Trek movie comes out. Never happens. Doing Harvey with Tom Hanks.

[00:16:27] Don't do that. These are the like sort of this seems too obvious kind of projects. But anyway, he is stuck at home. He says I start taking like five hour drives because I need to get out of the house. Right.

[00:16:38] And I start going like what do I do with my life now? What do I do? Is anything gonna ever go back to normal? If I get to make a movie again, what do I want it to be?

[00:16:44] And basically starts asking himself the tough question, which is if I only have one film left to make, what is it? Yeah, right. Not I need to retire. Yeah, not I'm dying. But just like this can all fall apart at any second.

[00:16:55] What's the one movie if I can only tell one more story? And he's like, it's the thing I've been too afraid to make my entire life. My entire career. Right. But also, look, he's not saying this, but his father died fairly recently in 2020. Yeah.

[00:17:13] His mother died a couple years before that. She died in 2017, I think. He's not saying like once my father had passed away, I was finally sort of free to do this.

[00:17:23] But it is undeniable that his dad dies and he starts working on this movie pretty much right away. Also, there were different points of time. And his dad died at the age of 103, by the way. Good for his dad. Damn! Those are good genes.

[00:17:37] Absolutely. Yeah. And Spielberg has great denim as well. But I was reading because at different points in time, this was announced as a thing that Spielberg was developing. His sister Anne Spielberg, who's the Julia Butters character in this basically, is a screenwriter, has written several films.

[00:17:55] At some point in the 90s or the early 20s. I can look it up. She wrote a script. Yes. That exists. Yes. And Tony Kushner talked about it in an interview I was just reading on the film stage.

[00:18:08] Where he said like both she's a great writer and she's got like a lot of scripts that I feel like should be turned into movies that I've read. But and I've read that thing and it's good. I didn't know about it until we were like close to production.

[00:18:25] Sure. And he Kushner and I believe this was like, but I think it's better that I helped Stephen write this because he needed someone outside of the family to bounce things off of. Right. And for me to be like, that's interesting. That's less interesting or whatever.

[00:18:41] Like, you know, it makes a lot more sense. To be a therapist, essentially. Yes. Yes. But there was that there were other times that he'd be like, maybe one of the things I'm developing is based on my childhood.

[00:18:51] And he at those times when those movies would not come to fruition, would say I would get too hung up on imagining how it would make the other members of my family feel. So he has never said I finally made The Fablemans because my dad died.

[00:19:04] But he did at different points say, I'm too afraid to make this movie because basically my parents are alive. You know? Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. I don't know if I want to put my sisters through this again. Yeah. You know.

[00:19:18] And I don't know if I'll make my parents feel like assholes. But like Spielberg has now been clear about this. The ultimate, the sort of the most painful thing in this movie, arguably, which is that he...

[00:19:29] We're spoiling The Fablemans and obviously this film's in limited release right now. It's going to be wide soon. Yes. But we have to get into it. This is a movie that is made up of vignettes and it's not plotty.

[00:19:41] And so we have to talk about scenes in detail. But the whole thing of like that he in his home movies essentially sort of saw this evidence of his mother being very close with another man.

[00:19:53] And then confronted her and showed her and helped her understand that she was essentially in an emotional affair that she didn't even totally know was happening. All of that is true. And he has never... That was like his dark secret. Yes.

[00:20:07] Like he and his mother truly were like, we're the only people who know about this. Not only that. Right. It was like, yeah, entirely secret conversations he had with his mother up until she died.

[00:20:15] But also that the Spielberg divorce, the parents' divorce looms so large over his filmography. Right.

[00:20:25] It's such a big thing. And I also think for so many people, the idea of what Spielberg actually experienced as a child was just combined with the fictionalizations of the divorce we see in the movies.

[00:20:39] Like, well, I assume it was just like this. Whereas like he was not Elliot's age. You know, he was 10 years older when the parents finally got divorced. Sure. It's not some exact thing. It's not a one to one.

[00:20:51] But I think the things converge in people's minds when they did the documentary a couple of years ago, the HBO Spielberg documentary. That was the first time he started talking about the fact that it felt like the father abandoned the family.

[00:21:04] And what they found out when they got older was basically that he played the bad guy. That's how you allow for the younger daughters to allow the mother to remarry the friend and not have the kids hate him and her.

[00:21:18] He was like, this is a more stable family unit. I will be the one who is seen as ruining the marriage. Right. What Spielberg even at that point in time was not willing to reveal was I knew what was going on.

[00:21:30] My mother and I would talk about it. But I think the sisters had that perception. Yeah, it's that documentary is largely kind of whatever. Like, I don't know how you feel about it. That stuff, which is sort of at the front of it is the so interesting.

[00:21:48] And the, you know, Ann and no, not Ann, Ann's his sister. Sorry. You know, his parents, Leah and Arnold are like together. Yes. And very sweet with each other. And it is this fascinating footage.

[00:22:03] My problem with the documentary was that it's so heavy on the first half of his career. Yeah. And it kind of yada yadas everything post Oscar. Because we had already done the miniseries. They knew who needs to come here.

[00:22:13] I was just watching it being like, yeah, I know that Harrison Ford had dysentery. And I was like, I want to hear about you making Minority Report and AI. Like, I want to hear about your weird post Oscar feelings. There should be two hours on BFG.

[00:22:25] And that, you know, the movie has to rush it somewhere. Yeah. No, arguably could be longer. But anyway, yes. All that's interesting. When he finally announces the Fablemans and I've seen that HBO documentary, I'm like, well, I understand the story he needs to tell.

[00:22:41] Because I think some people are like, fuck, he's going to make another movie about his parents divorce, but now minus the metaphor. And I'm like, he has really obscured what the actual dynamic of his parents divorce was.

[00:22:52] There was a story here that he is not told even in a fragmented way. It sure seems that way. So I'm amped when this movie gets announced, as you said, it very quickly comes together. It's like suddenly, oh, he's finally fucking doing it and they're filming.

[00:23:10] They announce Dano, Rogan, Williams. They cast unknown kids. It's off and running. This movie has been such an exciting prospect to me for a year. Our friend Jordan Hoffman saw it very early. He did not to blow his spot, but he did for reasons I cannot remember.

[00:23:30] Being New York's top Jew? Maybe. Honestly, maybe. And like, fair. Yeah, he sure is. But when we did our 2001 episode with him. Afterwards, Jordan and I went to see 3000 Years of Longing. And in the cab, I was like, can you tell me everything about the Fablemans? Yeah, right.

[00:23:54] Not like spoiler for me. Right. And he I was like, so it's like a knockout, right? And he's like, look, I love it. It hit me very hard. I wonder if everyone will be able to relate to it. It's a lot sadder than people expect it to be.

[00:24:10] You know, I think it's emotional in a different way. The dynamics of play are very odd. And then he was sort of describing to me, I was like, God damn it. This sounds so fucking good. Right? The response comes out of Toronto. It wins the People's Choice Award.

[00:24:21] It feels like this must be now the default frontrunner. Yeah. And then I feel like the recent wave of reviews has started to become a little more muted, where they're like, this thing is good. It's not a knockout.

[00:24:34] People are now starting to like come for it in the way that any Oscar frontrunner starts getting. It's inevitable. And also, it's a Steven Spielberg movie about himself. Like, you know, there's going to be hostility. The last three Steven Spielberg movies that we've covered on this podcast,

[00:24:49] I liked to varying degrees, but felt disappointed by all three of them. Right? West Side Story became a fight between the two. I feel like you were fairly pro-post. I am, but I don't think it's like... I don't remember us really being... Bridge of Spies level. What is?

[00:25:08] I'm just saying. I was having that conversation with Bilger recently where he was like, Bridge of Spies. Now there's a movie. And I was like, my friend, you're not wrong. And he's like, oh, he's made a fucking dad movie. This is his like late period master stage.

[00:25:20] Like, post had me really amped up. I like the post. I have trouble with Ready Player One. I like West Side Story. I wished I loved it as much as everyone else did. There is that thing with, as you said, with Spielberg.

[00:25:32] The expectations are just so fucking high. The bar is so high with him where it's like, if you go see a Spielberg movie and you're not levitating, it feels like a disappointment. This is maybe my favorite movie I've seen in a couple of years. Wait, your favorite movie?

[00:25:45] The Fable ones. Of any movies? I kind of think so. Wow. I was trying to compare the last time I felt this affected by a movie. Robert's Amethyst Pinocchio? Oh, sorry. Okay. Yeah. So six weeks ago. That is funny. My friend, have you forgotten? Smile. Being the Ricardos?

[00:26:07] Okay. One year. That magical night you met them and were them? Or they were themselves? Look, it's been a weird couple of years, right? There was a lack of theater going in the middle of that. And I've gone through different emotional things.

[00:26:26] And I felt, I talked about this with Ben. I haven't talked about this as much with you. But I've been in like a pretty bad depressive spot for the last handful of months that I'm trying to work my way through. I mean, I'm aware of that.

[00:26:40] You wear this. This is the thing I had not told you because I thought if I told you this, you would get unreasonably worried. Perhaps fairly. I talked about this with Ben, but I was just like, movies are not hitting for me anymore.

[00:26:51] Oh, well, but I've gotten that vibe a little bit from you though. And I certainly enjoy things, but I'm just like, it feels like the dosage is off. Even when I'm watching something that is great. Whether it's a new release or re-watching a fucking Kubrick masterpiece for me.

[00:27:04] That's been a this year thing for you. Because last year, they were hitting for you. I was so jazzed to be back in theaters. And then this year, I'm just like, the potency is off. Even things I've enjoyed is with a ceiling. It was concerning.

[00:27:17] And Ben was truly like, that's the most alarming thing I've ever heard you say. Yeah. That's like Dan Candyman not liking candy. I didn't want to tell you. He does like, he likes flowers. Well, it's his family business. Whatever. Jesus.

[00:27:32] This was, and I think it's a reason I was sort of, I struggled with West Side Story last year as I was like, I want this to make me feel that way. And then when it didn't, which is a thing that is not the movie's fault necessarily,

[00:27:46] I was like, I can't say I love this. Because I wanted this movie to transport me. And this, I felt like this was a levitational movie experience for me. Interesting. Yeah. I mean, how one feels just as a person,

[00:28:04] you know, it affects any film watching experience so much. It's so hard to just be like an objective movie evaluation machine. Right? Like, you know, it's like, you're always going to be like thinking about X that day and, you know, that week, that month, that year.

[00:28:21] Absolutely. But also movies have been my most effective, consistent form of self-medication across my life. I know that. I know that. That's always been, if nothing else, you can just go fucking see, you know, Robert Demekas' Pinocchio. The best film of 2020. Take the edge off.

[00:28:37] But yes, yes. And even seeing something crappy, just experiencing it going through, getting in my head a little bit, whatever I was just like, even the crappy movies are not able to hold my attention as well anymore.

[00:28:47] And the good movies I see, it feels like I'm like, oh, that's good. I appreciate it. It's not really hitting me at a bone deep level. Even if I intellectually am very stimulated. Like a venom-like carnage. Yes. Which is mostly an intellectual experience, that film.

[00:29:02] Right. Like a spiral, the book of Saur. I would say I had a little bit of that experience with the Five Bloods during the pandemic. There are some other movies I think are less perfect, but that were able to hit me specifically in emotional points.

[00:29:15] I feel like Worst Person in the World kind of rattled you up. I'm trying to think of like... That was close. Yeah. Right. I mean, that was what? My number two last year. Friends Dispatch, which I loved. You loved Matrix. Resurrection.

[00:29:28] I was running through, especially like with theatrical experience, the times I felt like the thing kind of lifted me out of the seat in the last couple of years. Right. And yeah, those are the examples. Five Bloods I had to watch at home.

[00:29:42] Think of ending things even as a flawed movie soul at times was able to cut through me in that kind of way. But this, I was just like so fully in love with what I was watching. And I am so eager to see it again.

[00:29:57] Ben and I saw it together. David, you saw it at Toronto. I saw it at its world premiere. Spielberg, not a festival guy. Not usually. Yeah. In fact, now, like when was his... I mean, OK, he launched like Bridge of Spies at New York.

[00:30:14] OK. Was it a secret screening? No, no, no. It was that, you know, so like... OK. That movie premiered at the New York Film Festival. West Side Story did not premiere at a festival. Ready Player One premiered at the Cannes Film Festival. No, at South By. Right.

[00:30:30] But you know, it's a little... The Post obviously was kind of one of those like end of year, like, this is the last thing critics will see before they vote on awards or whatever. The BFG premiered at Cannes. Out of competition. That is wild.

[00:30:48] You know, Lincoln was a New York film. So he'll do something like that to like throw a premiere out. But TIFF... TIFF he'd never done. I don't think. I believe that's what he said when he came out and introduced it. I saw this film at its world premiere

[00:31:03] at the Toronto International Film Festival at the Princess of Wales Theatre. Visa screening. I saw it. It was the same night as Glass Onion. Right. And they were both in the same theatre. So I literally went to see Glass Onion, which itself is not short, you know,

[00:31:21] and is also like a big old movie, right? See that movie. It's very fun. Crowds having fun. I look in the back of Daniel Craig's head. You're texting us. You're like Glass Onion rules going back in fable. And we ran out of fucking night. Right. I ran out.

[00:31:38] I went to A&W. Shout out. Which member of the burger family did you know? I got a chicken. I like their chicken sandwich. I forget what it's called. Chicken cousin. For some reason, they're all family. I went to the same street or whatever.

[00:31:53] I ate it just on the sidewalk, wolfed it down. Yeah. Because I was like not only am I going to a 9pm showing of The Fablemans, this movie is two and a half hours long. Two and a half bucks. So I had that fear of like,

[00:32:07] am I just going to be too zonked for this? Especially because like Glass Onion, jazzy, fun, loud. Fablemans, I was, my vibe of The Fablemans was definitely like this is not going to be a rollercoaster movie. This is going to be a quieter film.

[00:32:21] This is going to be a rollercoaster at Universal as part of like, they have to justify $20 million a year. If you're paying him that much, you want to work his movies into the park. You've seen your mother talking to his father's and your father's face, he drops suddenly.

[00:32:35] Now you're in the what do I do with my career pool. Yeah. You're sort of spinning around. But then I was just wrapped by the film. Yeah. I was very, very taken with it. Not to get too much into detail, but my mother's life is very,

[00:32:52] my mother's family, very similar situation happened. Yeah. Where her mother left her father for a friend of the family in the early 60s. Same age basically as Spielberg. She's maybe a few years, when was Spielberg born? 46. So she's a few years younger than him.

[00:33:10] So same era where like getting divorced was still like fairly surprising, unusual development. Although obviously like that's generation of like the first generation of divorce. Yeah, sure. And that's the whole thing with Spielberg is the divorce guy is it's like he is a baby boomer. Yes.

[00:33:28] But his audience is Gen X. Yes. Like they, you know, his movies are coming out in the 70s and 80s, these movies that are about divorce and Gen X, that's the fucking divorce. All these kids divorced are watching. For Spielberg's generation, divorce is a little rare,

[00:33:46] but then his audience is like the first major generation of divorce. Odd. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, 100 percent. Look, I don't want to get into personal private family life stuff on this episode at all, but I will say this movie hit me really fucking hard.

[00:34:04] Yes, I understand. Yes. So The Fablemans, we both liked it. I think it is a masterpiece. Yes. So how many buckets of popcorn? Ten. No, I don't know. I'm so I want to see a second time before I have a final rate.

[00:34:24] Before you gave it buckets of popcorn. Yes. I understand. I understand. It's not a rating you can throw out lightly. I I've started using Letterboxd again, but I've been kind of loath to do the stars just because I feel like I want to free

[00:34:37] myself a little of having to put the numbers on the things, you know? Yeah. Because I can sometimes feel like a prison of labels and ratings. I've been feeling this movie fucking thoroughly. There is that thing where I'm just like it's sort of what Jordan warned me

[00:34:54] is like, is this just so squarely targeted at hitting everything? Like, am I just so absolutely the bullseye for this movie? You know, is my relationship is my response to this disproportion to what other people experience? It's not unique. I think you felt similarly.

[00:35:14] Some people have felt very similarly. And that is the only reaction you got. So don't second guess it. But, you know, like he's a filmmaker who's mattered so much to so many people. He's made these big movies for like, you know, I think it's OK for lots of

[00:35:30] people to sort of be like thunderstruck by like him sharing, you know, his memories in this very like, you know, raw way. Yes. And not too gauzy. This is not too gauzy a movie. No, because this is the other thing. What's up, Brandon? He looked handsome as shit.

[00:35:50] Sure he did. Wearing a little fucking bow tie with a neatly trimmed mustache. He looked so goddamn good. It was galling. But I said, next week I get to see Fablemans. And he went, ugh, I am dreading that one. Because, I mean, the trailer does

[00:36:08] kind of make it look like this syrupy, treacly kind of like movies. The magic of cinema. Ah, to be a child. I don't know what the poster is for this movie, to be fair. Like, I'm not really sure what I would make it. I don't either.

[00:36:25] Maybe a little boy with two cameras for eyes. Or a camera sticking out of his mouth. Like a lens sticking out of his mouth. Wow, this is bad. It's so boring. I mean, like, I get the meaning that led to this poster. I get it.

[00:36:43] And capture every moment is a wave of the last 10 years. It feels like certain master filmmakers of a certain being like cracks knuckles. It is time to tell you about my childhood. Yeah. And it's interesting that this movie is coming out like the same time as Armageddon Time.

[00:36:57] Yes. Which is a different kind of movie. But like, the run of Tree of Life, Roma, Belfast. I feel like there are four or five other examples. Bardo. I'm forgetting. Which one did you say? Bardo. Bardo. Yeah, no, there's not, you know. I'm finally digging into their

[00:37:14] childhood and what made them a filmmaker. Bardo is a really brave story about how terrible it is to win best to best, back to back, best director Oscars and the existential malaise. This year there's like After Sun. There's another Joanna Hogg movie that's a very personal trail.

[00:37:30] You know, like there's a lot of movies that feel like they're like filmmakers drawing from their. Yeah. I guess I'm talking more about the like because I think I put Moonlight in the After Sun souvenir category. The Tree of Life, Belfast. This thing, it's like very

[00:37:43] famous filmmakers being like, here is my origin story. I know you've all wondered. Right. And they all have this sort of they're not plot driven. They're sort of memoir films. Right. They're vignette. They're these little glimpses, you know. And here are the dynamics. Here are the relationships.

[00:38:00] Here are the moments that changed the way I viewed the world. Right. I think I find incredibly interesting about this movie is like a there is this very weird specific narrative world dynamic at play that is very unique in the family situation.

[00:38:18] But B, I think what many people feared this movie would be is just like the magic of movies. Half the movie is just the wide-eyed Spielberg analog sitting at the theater giving the Spielberg look, which to be fair is the opening shot of this film basically.

[00:38:31] That we'll talk about. Yeah. All the movies that affected his life, him becoming a master filmmaker or whatever. Right. What I find so fascinating about this movie is it really feels like it is about a savant. Who does not understand the power that he wields. Well, OK. OK.

[00:38:51] That's so much of the movie is like not that he comes out of getting he's brilliant. But then everyone is like, how did you do that? You have this natural facility to think through these things and figure out how to put these things on screen or whatever.

[00:39:04] And everyone around him is so emotionally affected by him doing this in one way or another. Right. And he does not understand it. It is an organic thing for him. It is how he knows how to express himself. Yes. He is not this bleeding heart

[00:39:17] artist. He's very pragmatic about getting stuff done. We're going to talk about. And then everyone around him is whipped into a frenzy in one way or another. And I think so much of the journey of this movie is not just him working through his family shit,

[00:39:30] which is basically you're never going to finish working through this. But you coming to understand your parents are human beings. They are not just your parents. They are human beings with complicated, messy lives that you will never fully understand. And at some point they will become

[00:39:42] more contemporaries to you. And you will still try to work on those relationships. But also the end of the movie basically is him being like, I now need to figure out how to use the ability I have in a purposeful way because there's a lot of power.

[00:39:57] Sure. What you can do with a movie and how it can affect people around you. Yeah, that's all true. That hit me really hard. Ben, do you want to throw any basic thoughts before we dig into the... Yeah, Ben, what was your reaction? I really enjoyed it.

[00:40:09] It's such a lovely movie. It's nice to just like see a great story about characters who aren't fucking superheroes or... Well, I mean, he is a superhero. He has the power of cinema. Cinema. There you go. Super cinema man. What I was very excited by

[00:40:29] because I love old technology is that throughout the film they're shooting and using like old technology. And he's like editing on an editing bay and all that stuff. And like, you know, Spielberg was certainly exacting about like, well, this is the camera I used at that time.

[00:40:48] And like we need to get all these things. And right. Did you see the credit at the end of the film where they do the little Kodak stamp that they always put on a movie shot on Kodak film? And it says Kodak shot on Super 8. Hell yeah.

[00:41:01] Sixteen and thirty five millimeter. No, because, you know, I saw this film in a fucking premiere. Yeah. It was midnight. Yeah. Credits start rolling and, you know, people are hooting and hollering. That's why I do. I do would like to see it again and like soak it in.

[00:41:14] But I remember it. Having seen it two months ago, I remember it. It's fairly burned on the brain. Yeah. And I thought it was good. And I'm going to give it four bags of popcorn. Great. Out of? Twenty five. OK. So I'm going to give it four

[00:41:31] bags of popcorn. You just hit stop. I just have one quick record. Is the right now? Extra butter. Have you ever established what the butter kind of called? I'm sorry. I should clarify. Mine is Cheetos popcorn. Very nice. Thank you. Mine's a true popcorn.

[00:41:47] You get that at all my draft. Oh, I know. Disgusting. Early got it when we went to see tar. Yeah. And I was like, you have the aloof street corn, which is very good. That one. I don't need a savory. I don't need sweet.

[00:42:01] I don't need a sugar. Well, I was just in Europe and in both London and Paris. If you go to a movie theater, they will say to sweet. Do you want saltier sweet? I'm sorry. What? Yeah. You have salty popcorn sweet pop.

[00:42:12] But if the default is sweet and it sucks and I you know what I do, you mix it. I mix it. A lot of people mix it. I hate it. I hate that. And that's why you left and you'll never go back. Honestly, maybe

[00:42:24] for one reason might be the number one reason it was your Brexit. It's like how in Italy when you go to a movie theater, they have like the default is sparkling water, which I love. I do, too. And Britain, like the default

[00:42:34] popcorn is you have to be like specify like salty popcorn, please. Yeah. It's like in Canada if you ask for water back here in Canada, if you ask for water, they give you a pint glass of maple syrup to be like no American water. I'm sorry. American water.

[00:42:52] We're done, though. And if you could just post it immediately. We know it's a Thursday two weeks before the we're actually live. Yeah, we're live right now. Griffin's about to go shoot a movie or should I not say that? You can say that. OK.

[00:43:08] I'm not saying what the movie is just because we're all independent. It's the Fableman's 2. Sammy's back. Sammy's back. Sammy's revenge. This film is about a little Jewish family called the Fableman's. Yes. They are Sammy, little Sammy played by Matteo Francis DeFord as a young boy. Keep going.

[00:43:29] Aren't there five more names? Matteo Zorian Francis DeFord. I don't want to make fun of anyone. He makes me sound simple. He's got a very cute little face. Yeah. And Gabriel Labelle as a teenager who really looks like young Spielberg, like really

[00:43:43] really is a bit of a ringer for like when you see pictures of Spielberg. Especially he's he's got the same schnoz. He is incredibly good in this movie. He's excellent. I agree. He's excellent. Yeah. And especially because it's like a character that doesn't

[00:44:00] really start to take control of the narrative or should I say the performance does not really require him to take control of the narrative until like the last third of the movie. Maybe. Yeah. You have a good chunk with the kid. And then I feel like for a

[00:44:12] lot of the movie, even though we're kind of seeing things through Sammy's eyes, he's a very passive character. He's an observer. The parents are driving the scenes more. You know, it's only the last third of the Sammy starts really sort of I don't know, driving the scenes himself.

[00:44:27] That's true. I mean, he also puts down the camera for a bit and that kind of puts him. Yeah, we can. You know. All right. His mother, Mitzi. Uh-huh. Played by played by Michelle Williams. Five time nominee at this point. Four. I think she's going to lose again.

[00:44:41] One of the most strange decisions. David, here's the thing. From an Oscar perspective. That's all. Four four time nominee. OK. Blue Valentine. Brokeback Mountain. My Week with Marilyn. Manchester. Correct. Manchester's the one it feels like she should have won. Yeah. She didn't.

[00:44:59] She who did she lose to because that's the moonlight year. She lost to Viola Davis for fences. Oh, it was one of those things where they were like shit. We fucked up not giving it to Viola two years ago. Sorry. We have to give it to here and

[00:45:10] also kind of category for that. The thing is she got fucked by the up because I think she was seen as the de facto front runner. Then they announced that they were running violin supporting even though she had won the Tony for best lead. Yeah.

[00:45:21] And then it was like her Oscar campaigns over. It really was Viola sweeping. She's not going to win a single thing this year. They're now sort of doing the opposite thing to Williams. Although I would argue this is a lead performance just strategically.

[00:45:33] It is a bad move for them. I think the kids the lead of this movie the movies being told through his perspective almost entirely. I think everyone else is supporting. I think this movie has three leads and I think they are Gabriel about Paul Dano and Michelle.

[00:45:48] I mean I think it's a good movie. And Michelle I mean I just don't I think it's just the kid. Everyone else is supporting you just don't there's just not really scenes from Mitzi's perspective in this movie at all. No but I also I

[00:46:02] they are driving most of the film. This is a complicated thing that we've talked about before but it is this thing where like so many movies of the size really only have one female character of prominence right. So it becomes this question of like well whereas there's clearly

[00:46:17] a one male lead and then everyone else is in support of that male lead often the female lead of a film can still be considered supporting the male lead. Yeah. And so often the nominees in best lead actress are movies where it's like this is a

[00:46:31] character study of this one woman. It is rare that you get like the Felicity Jones nomination where it's like you are Stephen Hawking's wife and we are considering you the co-lead of the movie which is fair. She is absolutely correct. But more often you have the

[00:46:45] Elisa Vikander thing where it's like you are the lead of this movie and they are now arguing that you are in support to Eddie Redmayne. But they have put Dano in supporting which I think is wrong. No it's right. They're both everyone is supporting this.

[00:46:57] I think I think like Hirsch and something that annoyed me was that someone on the Internet who I shall not name who is connected to this movie said that Michelle Williams had like stopwatch more time in this movie than she did in my

[00:47:09] week with Erilyn where she was nominated for best lead actor. That movie is an hour shorter than this movie. Stop watching is stupid. Stop telling me how many minutes someone is on screen. This movie is 151 minutes long. I still think she's the lead of

[00:47:25] the I can hear the argument. It's not like one of those things are like outrageous. Yeah I just I don't know. Anyway I just think the kids believe it's about him. Sammy Fableman I think a film can have multiple lead a male and a female lead.

[00:47:37] I can say by the way Sammy. Well he corrects everybody. I know. Do you think he was Stevie like is that I wonder if that's I was I was doing the math in my head of was it Stevie versus Steve or Steven.

[00:47:51] Yeah I wonder what it must have been. You were always you never had an ear Griffin. Grif. Griff of course. I always hated Benny. Benny's tough. I just think about because I was never Dave. Were you ever Davey. Really maybe like a little bit. No.

[00:48:09] The other math I was trying to do watching it is they they call when anti Semitism is on the rise. Another thing in this movie that I found very hard to relate to through a present day lens my own experience the kids mock him at school by

[00:48:21] calling him a bagel man. Yes. And I'm like were they calling him spiel bagel possibly possibly. Yes. He said that he only had one bully. Yeah. That the second bully is invented. Right. But that was like in this movie that he only experienced anti-Semitism once they moved to

[00:48:40] California. Yeah. He was like an Arizona I did feel like we are weird that we are Jewish but there was never any part of it's also maybe just teen years. Yeah. Maybe. But also that it's like in the movie it sort of specifies in

[00:48:52] Arizona he had a lot of like Hispanic friends that maybe it was just a little more of a genuine melting pot. Yeah. Arizona in the 60s is like still like a growing like it's the last state admitted until Alaska and Hawaii would be a 51. Yeah. Definitely.

[00:49:07] Yes. In our lifetime. Yeah. Yeah. Probably Puerto Rico and Washington D.C. Oh yes. So there will be two obvious ones. Yeah. I think that will happen eventually. I know it's now become like insane device. By the time this episode comes out? Yeah. It's going to happen

[00:49:20] actually tomorrow. Two weeks. Yeah. We're going to have to fucking reprint all the flags. No. OK. So where do you put the stars? Just start a new line. Yeah. That would be funny. But he. You do the thing where you offset him some hesitance or whatever. Yeah.

[00:49:37] He all the interviews and probably the most important interview. All the interviews and profiles he's been doing for this movie have been fascinating. And he's also been talking a lot about his opinions on the state of the film industry and the medium and the culture around

[00:49:49] it all sort of stuff. And even saying like these are things I would not have said two years ago. Like the pandemic has kind of changed me where I now am not even thinking strategically about my status as the elder statesman of America cinema.

[00:50:03] It's sort of the most populist figure of filmmaking. I'm just giving you my honest answers. My fears and my beliefs on these things. But he all those pieces I highly recommend reading the A.O. Scott interview that ran the New York Times particularly good. But he was saying

[00:50:22] they were like it's surprising that you experience more anti-Semitism when you went to California. And he was just like there's a big difference between California and Hollywood. Yeah. There's a big difference between California and the film industry. I did not experience anti-Semitism in the film industry. No.

[00:50:39] But you can feel a far ways away and I feel like there are a lot of other filmmakers who grew up in California where you're like oh you grew up around the movies and they're like I grew up in a very different part of California.

[00:50:52] Hollywood felt as far away as if it was on the other side of the country. You do feel that when they get to California this part of the movie where it's like he doesn't feel closer to the film. Not at all. It's not like he

[00:51:03] comes over the hills and we're like seeing palm trees and the Hollywood sign or whatever. He lived in a sorry I wanted to where was it Saratoga California which is in basically these days you would call it the Silicon Valley because that's the idea is dad's a computer

[00:51:18] engineer like that's where he's since in Santa Clara County. But yeah it's like you're many hours from L.A. And yeah look I don't know the history of California that well but yeah in the 60s yeah there's less it's different. It's very different from what it is.

[00:51:37] Opening of this movie the opening of this movie is Steven Spielberg walks on stage and he says like F is for friend and A is I don't know what I'm doing. The opening of this movie is Sammy and his parents go to see the greatest show on earth.

[00:51:52] Did you start in the car. You start on the corner outside. You start in the car because the mom's kind of prepping him for like right. You know like what the movie the movie is going to be like but there's this very deliberate choice of you.

[00:52:03] You you do. You are framing it from the level of the kid from little Sammy for these first two little bits where the parents heads are cut off. They are abstracted like Charlie Brown adults. And they are talking like. But but it's like you set up the

[00:52:23] whole dynamic much in the way the tree of life is Malik being like my two parents represent my the two sides of my voice as a filmmaker. My mother was a woman of nature. My father was a man of anger brutality. Right.

[00:52:36] And in this it's like his dad is this loving. Yes but very like thoughtful and quiet an analytical person. Yes who like is just very logical. Yes and very cool headed. Right. And his mother is this like fucking babbling brook of a person who is like artistic and

[00:52:54] constrained. Structured emotional. Yes. And that vibe is present pretty much immediate. And the opening of this movie the whole like it's it's one of these things where it's like the beginning is the whole movie in the nutshell. The ending is the whole movie in a nutshell. Right.

[00:53:10] Like there's so many scenes in this film that also function as a microcosm of the entire movie. But here it is this kid stuck between two adults trying to explain to him what a movie is. He's about to see a movie for the

[00:53:22] first time in a theater and he cannot even understand what the concept is. You don't hear him ask the question. You start the film with them mid explanation and her explanation is like it's a dream that you never wake up from but it's not like a bad dream.

[00:53:36] It's a good dream. And he's like there's a man in a booth. There is a device that has a really strong light bulb talking. He's fucking J.D. and mottoing and he's talking about persistence of his talking about you know 24 frames per second and all this stuff. Yeah.

[00:53:50] Go to the street outside you see that it's the greatest show on earth. This will be the mill movie. And they're still arguing about is he ready for this. Is it too young. What is this going to be whatever they're cut off.

[00:54:00] I think the first time you see their faces I don't remember if the camera tilts up at that point or if you see them only when you cut into the theater but immediately it's just like this kid is entranced. Right. But but it also doesn't feel

[00:54:12] like let me say Belfast where it feels like every shot of the kid feels underlined with this is the most important moment in my entire life. The whole fear I had of this movie. Yes. The whole fear you have with any of these movies where it's

[00:54:28] like John Lennon sees a guitar and is like oh I fancy me one of those. You know. OK. Like he steps on a beetle looks at the bottom. I wish I would have met him. Jagger sees a rock rolling down the hill. He stings his lips. Yeah right.

[00:54:50] Looks in the mirror. Maybe I should keep it this way. John Bonham has lead poisoning and then sees the Hindenburg on TV. I don't know. Just keep doing band names eating sushi while watching Roy Davies has a kink in his in his neck. He does. And his garden.

[00:55:08] It is garden garden. Yeah. Well he can't water his plants. He can't. I'll say this Griffin I don't know if you have this opinion. I've never seen the greatest show. I have not. It is a best. I've seen most Best Picture winners and that's one of the

[00:55:21] ones I've never seen because it's one of those like super long Cecil B. DeMille movies where you're like oh aren't those things kind of like bloated and all about. I feel like it gets lumped into that like around the world 80 days thing where you're like this is

[00:55:34] like a frothy silly movie that just was the most movie that year and they gave it Best Picture out of like celebrate the industry celebrate the jobs that created. But does anyone actually think this is a great movie. Yes. And I just got to say the

[00:55:47] clip they show which is this train crash I was like God damn this kind of watch this fucking thing. I want to see this thing tomorrow. But what I like Cameron Bailey program it if I'll go like what I like is that this

[00:55:59] opening scene is setting up this dynamic of like Arnold being this worry word being like I think he's too young. He's not going to understand what's happening. This is going to scar him. Right. Yeah. And you're like how silly to think. That perhaps Steven Spielberg

[00:56:14] wasn't ready to watch a movie Mr. Movies himself. Yeah. And he cut to this kid you're like oh the movie fucked him up. That's what love. That's when I was like I'm leaning in. We're dealing with a much more interesting thing because he starts

[00:56:26] making these little movies to recreate what he saw and his look about the screen it's like he's in awe of this thing but it also feels like it's confusion. It's he is overwhelmed. And then once the crash happens it is fear. And then you have this amazing cut

[00:56:40] back to the car and the kids like frozen like you just came out of Vietnam. Yes. And the parents are arguing. I told you I told you I told you I told you I told you. Right. And he's got this little model train model train set another

[00:56:54] very like you know techie gift that his dad is you know interested in. For Hanukkah every night they give him a new car. Which is cool. And on the final night they give him the little whatever you call it not the remote but the little switch. Yeah.

[00:57:08] Yeah. He's finally got the full kit. I thought of you. I mean I never had a model train set partly because I lived in the city and we didn't have like a house with like a big because they take up space. Yes. Yes.

[00:57:19] I had like Brio's right ahead of you know things like that Thomas toy trains. Well Thomas Thomas Brio said I think oh yeah that was maybe more James's but I never had like you know the classic like with an electric light. Yes. They do seem very cool.

[00:57:31] It's also one of these generational things where it's like a lot of the guys who grew up with the train sets never got over it like like Frank Sinatra. There are like photo shoots of him and his little conductor outfit with his little hat in his basement

[00:57:47] with the full line all set when he's like 80 weird like ring a ding ding ring a ding ding like the coolest man in the world. He's like let me go fire up some trains. I think it was such a seminal thing

[00:58:00] for a lot of these guys the train set. Yeah. And I say this is a man who lives in a fucking apartment full of toys but go on. But you don't have a train. I don't. A big boy. His mother is the one.

[00:58:15] His mother is the one who realizes it like he's trying to emotionally process. Yes. This sort of like somewhat scary thing he saw right by filming it over and over again and kind of like exerting control over it you know like translating it. He first crashes the train

[00:58:30] on his own and then they're like you almost broke this. And then she realizes you need to gain control of this. I'm giving you the camera. Yes. The camera is the next step of like I think if you understand that this

[00:58:42] is how that was made which I think it's like the camera they already have because the dad is using it at Christmas. I mean at. Yeah. And also there's the great thing early on where the kids are complaining that their house has no Christmas lights because they're Jews.

[00:58:55] Yes. Which I love. I also early on turned to Ben and when Jeannie Berlin's on screen and I go that's fucking Jeannie Berlin and I saw his mind blown. She's really good in this. You wish she was in it more. But yeah. Sure. Well and

[00:59:11] and I was just so interested by Spielberg taking us into this kid's story that way. Yes. Not like I saw movies and it was a thunderbolt for me to want to make movies. Right. And it's more like no movies like got to me so intensely. Yes.

[00:59:28] That I had to work through it by making movies. And not only that that it's like you cut it. She's sort of like we'll make this. It's our little secret movie. Right. Then you cut to them watching it. And she's like that's impressive.

[00:59:40] And he's like took a lot of takes to get it right. Right. And you're like oh that's the weird combination of the dad thing that he does have this mind about like you have to work on something until you get it perfect.

[00:59:49] You have to like R&D it. And already there's this weird compulsive behavior of like well it's not looking right because I don't have animals in the trains. Let me pull the animals out of my other toy and put them in the train cars.

[01:00:01] Let me figure out the angles and whatever. There is this savant aspect is this thing everyone talks about with Spielberg where they're just like this guy thinks cinematically. He was pretty much fully formed by the time he was 20 and then only got better.

[01:00:12] It does not feel like there was really a learning curve with him. He would just look at things and go like why doesn't this look better. And he would read a script and understand immediately how to translate that into images without needing to think it through. Really. Yeah.

[01:00:29] He was the classic right. Like put the camera there put the camera there I know exactly what we're doing. Like I'm 20 years old. Welcome to my world. I'm like I'm 20 years old. Welcome to Colombo. Right. So you don't get the sense in this

[01:00:40] moment of the kid loves making movies he's found his hobby. You just feel like this has helped him conquer this thing. And also he's weirdly good at this thing. His mother also is just giving providing him the space to do this without being

[01:00:58] ashamed of it or like you know she's trying to give him the artistic space that she feels she lacks. Yes. Right. Like or like that she has been had to sacrifice by becoming a mother and a housewife in 1950s America. Right. Like you know it's like

[01:01:13] well my children she's not you know it feels the dad Bert he's called Bert in the movie. Bert is not like the kind of dad who is like you cannot do this. You must like do your math homework because you will be an engineer

[01:01:26] like but he certainly is less he has less like emotional awareness of like why it might be fun to do like make movies right. He's like supportive. He's supportive of the idea she's going to go on TV and play piano. But it's also like what a fun thing

[01:01:41] for you to do one time. There's that kind of energy of like how exciting. Yes. So it's yeah. Like I appreciate that he is not some like cartoon disciplinarian dad. No. And she is not some you know just sort of like endlessly perfect angel

[01:02:00] mother. But no Lord knows you've mentioned the tree of life a couple times we should probably stop mentioning it because this movie is so different from it. But but it's interesting. That movie is I mean is an angel. She is literally right. Right.

[01:02:14] And she's played by Jessica Chastain. She's always drinking Diet Coke. She's got crazy nails. I'm conflating two performances. Very funny. And and in this it's like Mitzi pretty quickly you're like this is a person this is a lot of person. This is like a person feels

[01:02:31] a little borderline. Yeah sure. Yeah. Yeah. Like this is just like a really day to day kind of person where you're like this must be such a fun person to be around but not all the time. David I can say it's a lot of time.

[01:02:43] For the second time in two weeks. I have to invoke the one thing that sums up this dynamic perfectly. There are real Dharma and Greg. Yeah. There you go. One of them is always putting on his suit and tie. Absolutely. Reading a book about Buddhism. Upside down.

[01:03:01] She's got a flashlight. Flower in her hair. Flowers don't go in here they go in pots. But this is what's so funny is like they don't have the soil and vinegar relationship. It doesn't feel like either one's being shitty to the other one.

[01:03:14] It does just feel like there are fundamental things that they do not know how to communicate to each other. They both respect each other. Yeah right. They're both like very impressed. That's what I mean. Like the other. He's not dismissive at all of

[01:03:28] the fact that she's you know artistic. And she's neither is she of the computer. You know he's a very impressive person but they do feel kind of like in separate bubbles. Well a little bit. And there's the incredible moments. I think it's the introduction introduction. It's the introduction.

[01:03:42] It's the introduction of the Rogan character. Seth Rogen playing Benny. Uncle Benny. Uncle Benny who is not their uncle. An honorific. But he is he is Bert's best friend and co-worker. Right. And he is. Works with him at the computer. Basically the fun dad.

[01:03:58] He is very much feels like he's an adjunct parent. He is joining them on the thing. Sometimes he's taken more role of being the big brother to the kids. Sometimes it does feel like he is picking up the extra slack. But he's also just like the guy

[01:04:09] who's like loosen up Bert. You know like you old workaholic. But he also maybe focuses her a little bit like he's sort of this in between for the two of them. What I love about this performance by Seth Rogen. Very well cast. Who is very well cast. Yes.

[01:04:26] Is that he's not that funny. Correct. He's because I was like oh he's going to be Seth Rogen. And I'm curious to see if people view this as a failure on his part because I really think it is a strength of the movie. He's a regular guy.

[01:04:41] Yeah he's a little fun. He's a little fun. He tells jokes but they're like dad jokes that you're sort of like OK. Right. He's not like because the whole thing is Seth Rogen obviously is he's so charming and that's how he's become this like unconventional movie star.

[01:04:53] He's got. He's just like a dad joke. Yeah. And a bit more fun. Yes. And Bert who's a little tightly wound and a little like obsessive this moment at the he's a very rational alternative. Yes. Not some like extreme alternative this moment at the dinner right

[01:05:09] because it's they get the film back from the train. Yeah sure. It's I think final night of Hanukkah maybe. Yeah. Or whatever dinner it is. Right. I don't remember the exact. She puts the dinner the film reel in the apron. The kids are like oh my god.

[01:05:22] Oh my god. Oh my god. The dinner reel in the apron. The kid is just dying to go watch it project it in the closet. Right. And he's just sitting here at dinner like fucking white knuckling it waiting for it to be over watching his dad

[01:05:35] try to explain to the rest of the family including Jeannie Berlin. Her mom is played by I always forget this actress's name who's so good. I love her and her name is Robin Bartlett. Right. She of course was in inside Llewyn Davis and a thousand other things.

[01:05:49] Yeah well she's on I feel like she's mad about you. Yes. She was the someone's mom. Right. Sure. I can't remember. But she was the sister. The lesbian sister. That's right. Yeah. She's a great actress. Great actress. But this full family dinner that

[01:06:06] that Benny is invited to and Dano's character is trying to explain the breakthrough they just made in the technology. He's like this huge thing. These advancements. Here's what's now possible because of this new device. Yada yada yada. And he's speaking in Greek to the table. Right. Yeah.

[01:06:25] And she's sort of glowing like she can tell it's exciting and she's impressed by how intelligent her husband is. And then Benny in like two sentences puts it in layman's terms. Whatever analogy comes up with he's like it's imagine it's a mailbox and now we have the key.

[01:06:40] Yes. Right. Yes. And her response is. I love your brain and I love it even more when he's able to translate it to me. I'm probably fucking up the exact. It's not like finally someone speaking my language. It's like he's a conduit to understanding the man she

[01:06:57] does truly love. Yeah. But cannot understand turn key for her sometimes. And that's he's an elemental part of their relationship. Yes. Like none of them even totally get that. And the whole family dynamic is elemental to all of them where once they announce we have to move. Yeah.

[01:07:14] There's a new job on the horizon. The first question from everybody is what about Benny. Now here's the thing about Seth Rogen in this movie. He's looking like a fucking snack. Oh he's Fox a hollick. It looks good. This era of Rogan.

[01:07:27] He's been like I feel like his like fashion game. Yeah. It's like he's just looking so good. He looks nice. Yeah he does. He's actually here right. He's his his current like sort of like I'm a fairly chill guy on Twitter who does pottery and like

[01:07:44] like he's got a whole good vibe right now. Yeah. A sexy vibe. One of these guys is quietly becoming a mogul without doing any of the things that we find unbearable when we talk about these guys becoming moguls because it does feel purely

[01:07:56] driven by the shit he likes. Right. It's like I'm now selling weed and pottery because I like doing this. Right. We now produce a bunch of projects. They are all things that we're clearly big fans of and are using our cloud to help get made. Right.

[01:08:10] It doesn't feel like he's investing in tech companies and shit you know. But also like Seth Rogen always seemed like he was 40 little bit. He was like the youngest cast member on Freaks and Geeks. And you were like why they cast this one 30 year old.

[01:08:24] You're like he's younger than the geek. Yeah. No yeah. He was like yes you're right. Right. There's like that whole thing. And then even in 40 year old version Kevin Smith talks about seeing that movie and being like who's this amazing 45 year old character actor I've never seen before.

[01:08:38] Yeah. Where's this guy been it's like he's 22. He was on two failed TV shows. He's now just turned 40 I think. And it does feel like talking about him looking good. He's like hit the age to be. He's really in a good spot. He's in a good spot.

[01:08:53] And yet how many movies has he made recently. Well he's pretty he because he does so many other things he's pretty selective about what he chooses to do like Longshot American Pickle where his first two vehicles in a while. You know what he's really good at

[01:09:06] an American pickle. I almost gave him a fucking nomination. That movie is fun. That movie is fun. He's kind of incredibly good. Donkey Kong in the Mario Brothers stole the role from Russell. Yeah. So he's great in this movie. I read some interview with him

[01:09:23] where he sort of talked about like I initially was kind of going for more of a Seth Rogen thing like I was being a little more funny and garrulous and improv and they were like Seth take it. No no no. Yes. And he was like OK.

[01:09:36] So Seth Rogen is the best friend Benny and the first chunk of the movie when he's little. What are some other things that mean the whole big thing obviously is that they live in New Jersey but they moved to Arizona for this career opportunity. They're uprooting Mitzi's life.

[01:09:50] Yes. And the kids lives but the kids are fairly small and the maybe has just had a baby or is about to. There's three sisters. Yes. And the big thing is what about Benny. Yes. And it's like right. Like Benny is basically like clearly not

[01:10:07] as good a computer engineer as Bert. But Bert keeps kind of bringing him with him to every new job as sort of like using his influence to do it because Mitzi is like we need you to have Bert in our lives. Right. I mean his response is basically

[01:10:20] like I just got hired here. I have to make a good impression. I can't flex my muscle yet. I can't demand that they hire Benny. Right. And she's like you're a supervisor. One of your jobs is to hire people. So get to the job and then hire Benny.

[01:10:34] And it's very it's always very well done because it's it's this unspoken thing. Yeah. He doesn't want to ask the question of like why are you so obsessed with Benny being with us. But he also understands the kids are obsessed with him like it's right.

[01:10:46] But he doesn't want to acknowledge the jealousy. Of course. And I'm watching this movie. I know the Spielberg story. I know that Mitzi leave that his mother left his father for the father's best friend. Yeah I know this. Yeah. So I'm watching the movie thinking are they already

[01:11:01] absolutely right. And the whole thing of course the big twist of this movie is that she doesn't even know it's unconscious for her. Yeah. See I had a different interpretation where I was thinking this is a single man. It's the 60s. Maybe he's gay or whatever.

[01:11:20] Sure sure sure. Yeah. But you didn't know right where it's gone. She's horned up for him. No no that's that's an obvious interpretation. Yeah. Is he a confirmed bachelor. Right. Why is he spent all this time with this family. Yeah. Yeah. I really didn't see it coming. Yeah.

[01:11:37] No and I do think ultimately we're spoiling all this but like basically this movie leaves me with the impression that like until the moment they actually decide they are getting divorced the two of them have maybe kissed twice. Right. Right. This is not something where right where

[01:11:57] you know right. It was an affair that lasted for years and finally came into the open or what's this emotional affair thing and I do think emotional it's a true emotional. You hear about you witness yourself in your own life. Sometimes these things where it's

[01:12:09] like here's a happily married couple and then there's this weird third person. Right. And sometimes it feels like it is one member of a marriage being like I understand there is some dynamic of their personality that I cannot meet and they need this other person. Yeah.

[01:12:28] And I think there are healthy boundaries on this. I do not believe this slips into other territories. I do not believe this becomes physical. Right. I don't watch sports games with them. You know I think sometimes you even see that with like two couples and you're

[01:12:43] like these two couples hang out and the two people in the middle have this one thing they like to do together and everyone's kind of fine with it. Yes. But there are always the questions. There's always the question. And with someone like Benny when

[01:12:55] the kids also sort of view him as an uncle that he is a family member he is a part of the unit he is so deeply entrenched in the thing it's even more complicated. I don't remember much else with him as a little kid.

[01:13:07] What else what else is there apart from making. There's that tornado sequence which is the early like sign where you're like oh she's like quite manic like she she's given to doing like plainly irrational right. Tornadoes coming. She like rounds up all the kids

[01:13:22] she hands him the baby and then takes all the adult kids or you know walking kids. Yeah. Put like throws them in the car and just like drive. He just left it. Right. And was like we got to see this. Yeah. And it's one of those things that

[01:13:35] feels like a story you hear from a friend where they're like this is something that happened to me as a kid that when I was a kid I was like well that was fun and crazy. Yeah. And then with the perspective of adulthood I'm like how are my

[01:13:47] parents doing or what the hell was my brother doing or whatever you know like what was here. Here's the thing I love about this movie. Yeah. Is that invoking the bad people but like Jeffrey Wells the Voldemort of the online film community. Right. Was at our screening. Yeah.

[01:14:06] Looking like a real warlock and he posted his review of this that was just like this movie is so self indulgent you would not care about this kid's life if this kid didn't grow up to be Steven Spielberg. You're like well guess what. He did. He did.

[01:14:23] And that's the fucking framework we're all watching this movie under. Right. Yeah. You understand the building blocks that this is working towards you. Part of the narrative tension of this movie is knowing. And then this guy goes on to make this movie and also all the other

[01:14:35] movies that have like changed over movies that have like changed American culture over the last 50 years and all that sort of shit. Like get over it. Get over it. There are other and I'm not trying to throw any of these movies under

[01:14:43] the bus but some of these other memoirs master filmmaker revisits his childhood movies. I do feel get a little more self indulgent because they're just caught up in the like the day to day the living the whatever. Spielberg is such a natural storyteller and has such an eye

[01:14:56] on the audience. Entertainer. Yes. Entertainer that every scene in this movie has a real narrative point to it even if it is not a linear A to B plot. Right. Every scene is giving you a very specific story beat that at least builds out the characters in the

[01:15:11] world. Right. And the way you're talking about this scene feeling like the story that an adult tells later and now has like a new perspective on this movie to me and this will sound like a backhanded compliment is not at all. I've recently got way back into

[01:15:25] listening to WTF. I've been locking the gates left and right. You have this movie feels like the best episodes of WTF where you're like here's an adult who has gone through decades of therapy is now like 50 years old is talking to Mark Maron and is able to isolate

[01:15:39] the 15 stories in their life that function as a microcosm of who they are and how they turned out the way they did. Right. Right. He is good at it. You know you listen to the Rosie Perez episode and it's just like she has the 15 crystallized.

[01:15:51] I should listen to the Rosie Perez. So good. But she has them all where she's like I remember I was a child and this happened someone said this to me and I've spent the last 30 years unpacking this and it's like every scene in this feels like

[01:16:02] the scene you talk about forever. Spielberg in this I think it was the Scott interview was saying how times you can read it. This movie feels so therapeutic it almost feels young in terms of him working through all these things. And he was like what's your

[01:16:16] relationship with therapy been. And he's like it's making movies. Amen. It's always been my thing. I abstracted I work in metaphor and he's like have you ever seen a therapist. And he said when I was like 18 I saw a therapist to get out of the draft. Sure classic.

[01:16:30] And I saw him for like five months and at the end of those five months when I wanted to think I was crazy it turned out that he was very pro war and he would not sign. So what didn't even work. So it's a waste.

[01:16:40] And he was like that's my entire relationship with therapy across my life. But it does feel like these are the scenes where he's worked through these stories for the last 60 plus years and now understands the importance of what they represent. Yes. You go forward to Arizona.

[01:16:56] Go forward to Arizona. You leap to 16 ish year old Sammy Fableman played by Gabriel Labelle who's in the Predator but I don't remember. I don't either. If he had a big role in. I don't think so. That's like his kind of his only film credit Canadian.

[01:17:13] His father is like a Canadian character actor. Sure. He's got a handful of like TV crowds a couple little movie parts but it was mostly like what's filming locally. Yeah. I think he's from Vancouver. I want to say he sure is. Yeah.

[01:17:26] So it's like a lot of films there is that is like a job in his dad some character TV character actor and he would start you know getting little parts and things he's quite good. The vibe in Arizona is happy. Yes I would say by and large

[01:17:40] right especially once Benny's locked in exactly the Benny is there. The dad is an unqualified success like he's clearly like he's killing streets ahead on computers back when computers had doors streets ahead streets ahead of him. One of the weirdest community jokes. Very funny. Yeah. Funny.

[01:17:58] He's got these sisters Julia Butters we love to see her. Yeah. This is the little girl from once on time in Hollywood. Yeah. Oh yeah. The child actor is playing the sister with the glasses. Yeah. She's the oldest. These people were watching this

[01:18:12] movie you're like I guess she is going to be we're going. She's going to be around for ever. Right. Great. I thought these were all great kids performances. Yeah. Which usually kids performances they can really just stick out and like stick in your craw. Sure.

[01:18:28] Kind of feel a little as we move forward make a movie. Some of the high school performances I think they're two incredible standouts here but all the kids are good and they don't feel Spielberg kitty. No. And like some of the stuff with

[01:18:39] him like when they're dressed up as the mummies and they're going like right. So cute. That's when he's still a little boy but it is. Yeah that's when he's a boy. You're trying to remember there's a lot of these little movies you see the problem solving.

[01:18:50] How do you do a tooth extract and candy corn ketchup in the mouth. The toilet paper rolls all this stuff is cute but also it's all cute and you're like is the whole movie going to be this. No it's pretty much one montage. Yeah exactly.

[01:19:02] Shows him working out the math of like how do you fix things on screen. Right. And also just you getting the idea of like his sisters as these sort of willing participants in his little experiments right. You know it is a little hobby

[01:19:12] and his mom sort of going like oh those kids. And the dad being like what is this thing. Yeah. And then he's like I'm going to go to the bathroom and he's like what is this thing. I wish he would like do anything else. Right. Yeah.

[01:19:25] Well not being completely dismissive but whatever. No it's this balance of him being like there are scenes that I love so much where he's blown away by the ingenuity of the way he's able to figure things out. Right. How did you create the bullet holes.

[01:19:38] I poked pins through the film itself. That's the best. That's like their biggest moment of connection. And he's like that's brilliant that's brilliant. So when are you going to start applying that energy to math. You go to MIT. Right. Rather than saying like my kid

[01:19:51] is it's clearly incredible at this thing. Yes. He's like if he could just shift that ingenuity over to something that actually matters that conversation of like but when are you going to like actually make something. Yeah. Because it's like I feel like film school at that point. Yes.

[01:20:09] Is still a fairly new like it's the 60s where that really becomes. Yes. A concept that you could take a four year college program and take a college program. Yeah. Like in film. So like Cal Arts NYU these kinds of places UCLA like they really start expanding

[01:20:26] in the 60s. But it is. So obviously though film is a long standing thing. It is a blue collar trade. Yeah I feel like and this is just the beginning of it more being like a professional class and his generation Spielberg's generation is the first

[01:20:39] generation to actually like come out of film school and have careers like it's Coppola and it's Lucas and it's Scorsese on the East Coast. You know. Yeah. They're the first guys to sort of get permission from their parents to actually pursue this and make something of themselves.

[01:20:54] Yeah it feels like that's an actual job that that moment where Dano I know we're jumping around a little bit where Dano is like just jump right. I don't remember the exact progression but this is the thing at this point it becomes hard to track it in order.

[01:21:05] But where Dano is like when I was a kid I used to look at things and try to figure out how they were made like I'd look at this car and this radio and I'd want to figure out how to make things.

[01:21:15] And he's like I make things I make movies I do the exact same thing you're talking about. We are this we have the same brain about this right. And then he's like no but like real things like things that people use because it's ephemeral a film right.

[01:21:26] You know. But it's that thing that's so heartbreaking where it's like he is a very sweet man. He loves his children dearly. He is so caught up in his own worldview that he's just like you need to think about things the same way I do

[01:21:42] because that has worked well for me. He cannot understand the kids shifting in their behavior a little bit like he's like I used to look at this car. You should look at cars the way I look at cars and try to figure out how they're made.

[01:21:54] It's funny because of course it's so one to one the mom is so different right. So encouraging all this stuff but and you're like so how did this marriage come about. Yeah obviously it's like there are two Jewish people in a time where like you're going

[01:22:07] to marry another Jewish person and they do have this sort of yin yang thing of like they're good together. Yeah you know fire and ice. Yeah. And we were talking about this the other day off Mike but like that thing for up until you know for a long

[01:22:21] period of time basically if you wanted to date someone you got married when you were 20. If you wanted to live with someone if you want to date them beyond going to dinner with your parents or whatever. Marriage was like a pretty quick step. It was like day three.

[01:22:37] It's like now have four babies. It's like oh no. You don't have a career. And what's more astonishing is that you're like they work better than you think they would for two people who probably got married three months after meeting each other. That's a good question.

[01:22:49] I wonder if I can find out when they got married. Look because Spielberg is the oldest right. All the girls are younger than him. Correct. So Arnold Spielberg was born in 1917. OK. And he married Leah in 1940 and he got married in 1941. And he was 45. OK.

[01:23:13] The war obviously sort of interrupted things. So they were 28. OK. You know so yeah. But he was Arnold Spielberg was served in World War Two. Sure. Do they and they lost a lot of family in the Holocaust like you know Spielberg's other Spielberg's.

[01:23:29] Does does do they allude to Dano's character being in the war. Do because he does. Yeah. The war movie because like the ham radio. Yeah right. Yeah. And I think that's a really important part of the war movie because when you're watching a movie like

[01:23:43] George or whatever when he screens the war movie and they're like so that's based on your dad's memories huh. Your dad's experiences in the war and he's like he doesn't really talk about it. Right. Which I think obviously was a very common phenomenon. Yeah.

[01:23:55] But it does feel like yes it is invoked mostly through the prism of the war film. Got it. And him sort of asking his dad if the details are right and people being like oh this must be your dad's story. And it's clear that it's a

[01:24:07] lockbox kind of thing. And he directs his actor. Well that sequence is so good. And like gets him to like really feel. Because I feel like you're saying so much of what we're seeing when we're seeing him make movies is the problem solving right. But it's usually technical

[01:24:22] stuff and it's so clever to watch him do the thing like poke the holes. It's visual ingenuity. It's sort of magic shit. That is like one of his earliest examples that he clearly remembers of me like interacting with an actor and getting him there. Like you know.

[01:24:35] And that he gets so worked up that he's feeling it when he's describing it to the guy. And when the guy he's like trying direct him and the guy goes like what you mean like acting. And it's like right up until this point everyone who's been

[01:24:47] in one of his movies is basically like I am also a technician. My job is to stand in the place he tells me to stand. My job is to be an emotional conduit for anything. And when the kid asked him that you're like is Spielberg going

[01:25:01] to make some snide joke back and I'm like yes you're an actor be an actor my movie. And instead he's kind of taking it back and he's like yeah I guess yes that is what I want. Right right right. It is a two way thing.

[01:25:13] The kids open to it. This big kid. Yes. Yeah. But but but they both need to in real time figure out what is this. But also there is that vulnerability right of like this is this is the 50s or the early 60s like you know boys

[01:25:24] aren't supposed to be emotional like it's a little tough for this kid to access it. I think this kid's I'm watching the scene going this kid's going to revolt. He's going to go this is going to go this is I can't do that. Right.

[01:25:37] And said they're both like acting. So what would you say to me next. And then I would like feel this. And then of course the ultimate sort of gag is that the kid just can't. He keeps walking right. He can't get out of his fucking Spielberg restraint.

[01:25:50] They don't cut back to the kid. You don't see a close up of him with tears down his face. You just end the scene on cut and the kids still walking off into the distance and you realize like oh he just went somewhere.

[01:26:00] I got to see this movie. This movie rips. All right. So there's some other things in this sort of middle period where it's like he's getting into this. He's figuring out that thing with the fucking wooden board in the desert where they step on

[01:26:11] it looks like a gunshot went off. All this shit is so good. But no but like I'm trying to think of other like emotional like so he's filming the war movie. Yeah. The mother dies. Which is Robin Bartlett character which is such a wrenching scene. Yes.

[01:26:28] It's quite upsetting. Like it's very well done without being too like sort of nasty or traumatic like it's just like sad. Yeah. And there's been this step up of the equipment right. He keeps on sort of getting his father better camera he gets an

[01:26:41] editing bay right a little baby thing right. He's got the little thing that's truly just the like the clip snip. Yeah. The clipper with the glue projecting it you know I mean you have that one more it's another moment early on where you're like it's just gonna be

[01:26:55] too Spielberg but the image in the hands when it's as a little kid right. But what he doesn't have is basically like a movie old where he can watch and cut right. But he does eventually get what it's at this point because it's the difference between

[01:27:08] just like basically having like the clipper I'm using dumb terms. But you see him running the projector back and forth then having to unspool it hold it up to the light try to figure out where the cut is versus this there is that Spielberg Bible

[01:27:23] story he's like listen up kids you know how fucking hard it was to do this when I was a kid you know and then having to like take the different sections tape them label the tape to the desk all the shit I love.

[01:27:33] I mean this was how I was like making fucking Super 8 films. Oh boy. Mr. Spielberg over here. All I'm saying is watching this I was like I got to fucking dig this shit out of my closet and I would fuck around with my uncle's digital camera but I

[01:27:48] would make movies in a movie you know I would like do things in camera like you know you'd like stop at to edit it. Yeah I had no idea how to video it. I know I still don't know I was doing like fucking physical editing like this.

[01:28:02] I had a VHS tape and we me and my friends made a classic like on the shoulder big VHS camera. Yeah and we made our own jackass. What? You made a jackass film? Those are dangerous. What was it called? Poison Potpourri Patrol. Yeah I think you may have

[01:28:20] mentioned this you certainly mentioned it to me. I forget if you mentioned it on air. I've been missing or rather I should say I've been trying to track down this tape record for so long it's like one of my old friends.

[01:28:29] If you do we're going to get a VHS player. We're going to slide it on this for sure. OK. But so he asked for this new equipment he tries to explain to his dad the importance of it that sort of the argument with

[01:28:41] the mom of like just support it it's not that much money because he says what that he used. Oh that's what Jeannie Berlin gives him some of the money. Yeah. Because it's like he bought extra reels of film Jeannie Berlin forwards him the Hanukkah money.

[01:28:54] He says he needs this one thing Jeannie Berlin. Who is playing Bert's dad. Yes. Right. Yes. Bert's mom sorry dad. Yeah. She seems to be like she's the slightly more classy judgmental upper middle class. She frowns on them using paper plates and paper utensils and

[01:29:13] all that which I love. She complains about the brisket early on and it doesn't taste as good on a plastic for early on in the movie. They sort of say like well they don't use the utensils they use paper plates they use disposable tablecloths because she's got

[01:29:26] piano hands. She doesn't want to damage her hands right as it goes on. It's just like she resists domesticity. She doesn't want to be a domestic like housewife. It's like it's just like yeah keeps her from fully committing to this is just like well I throw

[01:29:40] it all away. Yeah. Yeah. But he writes collecting scorpions discouraging to get the money he makes the big plea to Dano the family's fighting about whether or not to get him this editing thing right. And then the dad buys him the thing. Right.

[01:29:54] They've gone on the camping trip. I'm sorry. The camping trip before the mom dies. So they go on the camping trip. He's filming everything obsessively. There's the moment where she's dancing in front of the fire and you can see through her dress and the girls are so embarrassed

[01:30:07] scandalized. Yes. And they're like why aren't you doing anything about this. Why are you filming it. And it's like because this is good footage. What do you mean this is it is the recurring theme in this film is this kid knows what looks good on camera gets it.

[01:30:20] He sees the moment we will talk about the confrontation with the bully later which is sort of like a huge huge huge thing in the film. But it's the same kind of thing he's like look man I shoot things they look good on camera I don't

[01:30:30] know what to tell you. It is what it is. It's truly not like the kid is like destined for this but this one time had him being a savant where he doesn't quite understand either how he does things well or why he is driven to do these

[01:30:41] things right now. So part of the dancing is also he's kind of in between. Yes. The father and Benny. Yes. They're both watching her dance with a totally different context. Yes. And it's just I don't know if there's just something about how

[01:30:58] that all plays out that just this you know this microcosm of the bigger thing that's happening in the movie. So then the mom dies. The dad gets him the new movie Ola editor. Yeah. And says like I got this for you. This is the favor the favor you

[01:31:12] owe me. You have to cut together the footage from the camping trip. Yeah. And obviously the mom is still in this great funk from her mother dying and like she's imagined this phone calls from her mother's ghost which is right like also effective and kind of crazy. Yeah.

[01:31:26] But what's so interesting about this is two things. One the fact that Sammy is like well I don't want to do that which is like so reminiscent to me of being a teenager where you like you would do these callous things. Yes. Even though it's so plain.

[01:31:42] You're such a why the request is being made. Right. Like yes you're a stupid teenager but still like he knows it's a it's a normal thing for his day. Like what an easy trade. It's that weird thing of like teenagers are more sensitive and

[01:31:54] in so many ways more emotionally attuned than anyone else but it's like their receptors are so sensitive that it hurts to acknowledge emotions like you. You turn to this callous defense because you're just like I'm so aware I can read everyone now. Yeah. I can't block it out.

[01:32:13] Fuck you. I don't know I'm not going to do this. And it goes from being the pragmatic defensive like well I have like 10 kids busy. Yeah right. I've already I can't delay the shoot a week. I have to do this and that. And it's just like you don't

[01:32:25] understand how important this is your mother. And this is the shit I'm talking about where Dana even even though he has not been supporting the movie thing the whole time he's even always like when do you get over this. He's basically like you making

[01:32:36] this as the one thing that would cheer your mother up. This weird power you have. And he's like who cares the movie camping trip. It's like it will mean so much to her that you did this. Yeah. He's and he's right. I just bought this for you have

[01:32:49] to fucking cut this footage. He's not wrong. Yes. But at the same time the whole time I'm watching it I'm being like why can't you talk to your wife. Right. You know like it like where he's like this is the only thing that's going to work and I'm

[01:33:02] like why is that the only thing it's going to work even though I'm kind of like you're probably right. Yeah. It's he likes the language and it's also just that like cinema is this static expression. It's things that are in tangible. But it's also like you say it's

[01:33:17] the gift of like I made this for you. Yeah. Like you know I that is you know you love to get a little home. It's a captured moment in time that fucking camping trip is like one of the last moments of her life before the mother dies.

[01:33:31] It's capturing her in a pure state a simpler state you know. And then obviously the big twist that we already sort of referenced it's that like when Sammy's looking for footage David David something humongous happens right before her before this shows up right after this conversation.

[01:33:48] So it turns out that Mitzi's uncle. Yeah right. That's who he is is a living Jewish lion and he emerged he's escaped from the circus. He's she's gotten this phone call that she does imagine phone call from the ghost of her mother saying a man is going to

[01:34:03] show up don't let him in the house. Right. Right. Right. Right. Like this this morning. Right. Dana picks up the phone is like there's no one there. And then he just arrives. He arrives in a cab and he's uncle is freaking out. This is Boris uncle Boris.

[01:34:19] We don't talk to him. He's been cast aside. Is there a reason why should I not let this man in the house as he had to book. Did you notice the temperature symbol that arrived in the right corner of the screen how it started going getting hotter.

[01:34:32] It's a fucking thermostat performance. That's a very very good point. Thank you for teeing him up there Ben. Thank you Ben. Uncle bars were a little bit different. Uncle bars worked in the circus right. Uh huh. And worked in the pictures he worked in the movies silent pictures.

[01:34:51] It's sort of the idea silent movies and he is a garrulous hairy Jew dirty show folk. He is exactly what Dano is worried is dismissive about his son. He pursues his career and it's like he is this but he's also he's like Hollywood's past

[01:35:11] and he's like the only thing that really was right. This like blue collar thing. Yes. And even below blue collar right. It's like these like traveling sort of like entertainer thing almost like a carny or whatever like yeah. There's even that moment where

[01:35:25] he's like I started working in movies in 1920s and he's like twice a jazz singer first talking. He's like I didn't work on that one like it's he doesn't have the credits that are just like he's you made an impact. Yeah but he is

[01:35:39] he's like art is within me. And it's within you. And I see this. Well there's he's not like kid you got to make movies. You got the gift. He's like art is a tornado. Like he's terrifying. He's like you and I were addicts. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:35:53] There was no kicking us off of this thing. The whole thing in this movie is that Spielberg is saying like there has always been a camera between me and everybody. Yeah. And like I mean like look I just want to it's the lead of my

[01:36:05] review but it's the most important shot of the movie is later in the movie when they're announcing the divorce to the kids he sees himself filming it in the mirror. Yes which is like you know one of the most like kind of impressionistic things Spielberg

[01:36:17] has ever put on a film because it's not happening but he's just like I'm I know I'm filming I'm thinking about how I would film this. Yes that's that's what it is. Here you are watching the movie. I did film it. Yeah. Sixty years later.

[01:36:33] Well we'll get to the other one with that fucking knocks me out. But yes no. Hershey's like he is this omen almost. He is like a ghost of Christmas yet to come. Right. It's not like I'm telling you kid you got the gift you got to pursue this.

[01:36:48] There's the little bit of the like your mother will break her heart if you don't. But it's more about because she gave this up. Right. And she's never going to be happy now. You need to avoid that. Basically kid here's your death sins. You have no choice.

[01:37:04] You have the thing. I see it in you. It's incurable. Right. Your life might suck. Yeah there's a really good chance your life might suck. And even if you find success in your field it's probably going to come at the expense of your relationships. And your family. But.

[01:37:18] Bad news. This is who you are. Right. Here's where it's going. He rips his shirt open. Demands they sit Shiva. The ripping the shirt open is so good. The whole thing. There is also just that thing that we've all had I feel like where it's like.

[01:37:33] A relative or weird family friend comes over and it's like they're getting your room. Or they're sleeping on the couch or whatever and you're just like I don't like this. And it's like well too bad. It has to happen. Yes. You know that feeling as a

[01:37:45] teenager as a kid where you're just like this is like out of routine. This is this is troubling. Look I've long advocated for Oscars for all living taxi cast members. I mean I think he's going to be he got an applause break in my in my career.

[01:38:01] I mean I think he's going to be I think he's going to be a rock in my. It was a premiere screening people are jazzed up. But right. You know he got he got a huge reaction. Even the people who seem a little muted in their response

[01:38:13] this summer like obviously the hearse thing is a knockout. It is. Yeah. I have a memory like I know you're talking about David and it's usually adults who are not good with kids. Yeah often they're like they have no way of speaking to you like other adults do.

[01:38:28] This guy is not in them. Yes. Yes. And I'm thinking about that kind of adult too. Yeah. So then at the behest of Judd Hirsch who implores him you have to do this. Why are you being selfish. Make the fucking camping movie. Right. He watches the footage and

[01:38:45] discovers the most devastating thing imaginable. It's like it's it's exactly what Judd Hirsch just said basically coming true. You have no choice but to do this. You cannot avoid this. By the way it's going to break your fucking heart. And it's so carefully directed where it's like he's

[01:39:01] not seeing them like kiss. No but he's just like over and over seeing them like be together. Yeah. And hold hands and chat and be emotional being off to the side of things. I'm sorry I keep on so sensitive in this A.O. Scott interview but like

[01:39:17] there's like kind of a big interview. Yeah. He doesn't give a lot of there was the Hollywood Reporter piece is really good too. But A.O. Scott was like is how much is that like a Hollywood eyes a clean narrative version of what happened.

[01:39:31] He's like that is exactly what happened. And he's like I find that fascinating because I feel like one of your greatest skill sets as a director has been being able to communicate a complicated story beat emotional be character you know piece of character development through a gesture

[01:39:48] through emotion not needing dialogue to explain things that you can have a subtle shift in physicality that's maybe not even the center of the frame completely change the temperature of the movie. Right. And it's like yeah it probably is because of that. You know it's probably because

[01:40:05] I fucking obsessively watch this footage trying to analyze the body language of what was happening in the background of it. It's such a you know deep thing for him. Yes. And it's very cool that he put it on screen for me to watch while

[01:40:19] eating some sort of like half stale popcorn. So it also is what it's like to be an editor. It really I think portrays the like obsessive have you to go back to that little tiny detail. Yeah the repetition. Right. Because you have that ring. No thanks.

[01:40:36] Don't do it. Fun. Like I find very relaxing. You know I haven't done a while the you now go to the period where same as a little shit where he is so down the camera. Yes because he's like you know toxic. I this this thing is only

[01:40:52] brought me misery. Right. And I think that's why he becomes a little shit because he's he's lost his cigarettes and lost his crutch. Yeah. Also it's like his only form of communication on for himself. And then obviously also very understandably he's completely consumed by this new

[01:41:07] perspective on his parents that he can't emotionally handle which like you know is a very understandable reaction. This is basically when he starts talking in the movie. He's had so little dialogue up until this point. It's like now that he doesn't have the camera and he's forced

[01:41:19] to actually engage with the world around him as a person. He does not like it. He is unhappy. And it's that thing that like the everyone can tell in the family. Yeah. Something's up with Sammy. Yeah. And it's so pointedly being directed at his mom.

[01:41:35] And yes and then trickle down to Benny. Is this the premiere of the movie. Yes which is awesome. She comes over says I'm so proud. He walks away. Benny comes over is like way to go man. Right. Fucking walks. He gives Benny the coldest coldest show. Right.

[01:41:50] And then he says I'm tired Benny's can drive me home. You guys continue celebrating and he's just like fucking insult to injury. They're continuing to do. Now I'm clocking it in real time. Right. And again as I said in this movie when I'm watching and

[01:42:02] I'm like do do they are they having an affair or not. Especially when they're going to the car together. I'm like are they moving. Are they going to drive to like fucking lovers leave right in a car and then he's going to drop her off.

[01:42:13] Of course the whole thing is like she doesn't even know she's doing. No. She sort of knows. Yeah. Like she once confronted with it of course she knows but like you know like she doesn't know that she's doing she just wants to get the

[01:42:24] right home with him because she prefers. It's the unspoken thing. Yeah. Yeah. And like I truly do sympathize with her in so many ways which is so crucial to the film and the thing she says about how Burt kind of kills with kindness where it's

[01:42:35] like he's so nice and understanding that it's tough to be mad at him which only makes you more frustrated with him. Yes. Yeah. It's a complicated set of emotions. Absolutely. Yes. I mean I'm not saying that she's a cheesy villain. No absolutely not. But but but for

[01:42:52] Sammy at this moment she is of course right. How dare you. When does she slap him on the back. Is that when they're in California like is that after the move. Now that's still wild. Yeah. That's they have the premiere. Then she's serving breakfast.

[01:43:04] He's being such a little shit like doing the swim team or whatever he's doing instructor test. Right. Right. That's it. Yeah. And he makes some side comment and she like goes like why are you continually being an asshole to my right. Like she calls it out.

[01:43:18] He like storms off in a huff. He says something very something mean. It's about the eggs as well. There's a whole thing with the eggs and she slaps him on the back and leaves a mark which just again feels like one of those things Spielberg has never forgot

[01:43:30] right. Like one of those sort of like indelible. She basically impulsively as a knee jerk in response to what he says goes to slap him in the face and Spielberg turns away and so the hand directly connects like in between his shoulder blades. So it's also like a

[01:43:43] moment of like I'm going to slap him in the shoulder blades. So it's also like this averted face slap. She didn't mean. That would almost be worse but yet there's this like big red mark on his back. She goes in to try to apologize to him and he

[01:43:55] shows her the the phone footage. Right. And it is as powerful for her as it is for him. Like it's a thunderbolt moment. Also just like mom go sit in the closet. Yeah. This is where I keep the trauma. Now you have to walk

[01:44:08] in here and now we have to share this. Yeah. It's good. She's like I'm going to apologize to him. It's good. She's really good in this moment. She's really good in this movie. It's a very big performance and I think I put some people off

[01:44:22] like it's a very big performance. I think this is who she really was as a person. I agree. And also right. Yeah. I think Spielberg cast her partly. I mean she's a very talented actor but like she kind of looks like his mom. Like when you look at

[01:44:36] his mom she kind of looks like. Let's acknowledge Dano and Williams both feel like the waspier versions of his parents. He talked about wanting to cast based on mood and based on the feeling they evoked in their previous work and whatever. Everyone else in the

[01:44:49] family like I mean obviously when you get to Hirsch and Jeannie Berlin and Rogan even as like you know their Jewish friend and Gabriel LeBel and everyone else reads more Jewish. Yeah. Armageddon time is coming out right around the same time where it's similarly like you're like Anthony

[01:45:04] Hopkins Anne Hathaway and Jeremy Strong are all doing strong New York Jewish dialects. Well no not not Hopkins. Oh right because Hopkins is English. Hopkins is English. No he's the character is English because James Gray's grandfather was English. Oh I didn't. A Jew who emigrated to England. OK.

[01:45:20] When we had talked about this you hadn't dug in. The thing the difference I will say like there's look I think there's a I think the whole thing we're all me and you are both Jewish. And we talk about this a lot. It's not a thing where

[01:45:32] I'm like forbidden but it is a thing I sometimes get touchy about. I'm probably touchy about because I do act to some degree where I'm just like in these movies that are explicitly Jewish texts about Jewish families that are written directed by Jewish filmmakers.

[01:45:45] Why are they so low to actually put Jews in these roles. And a lot of it is unfortunately fucking bankability names. The thing with Armageddon time especially I feel like it's like that movie was made for very little money and he needed to get he needs names

[01:45:58] like any not just names names that are available right. And this one is a little different because this is Steven Spielberg we're talking about. He more has his pick of who he wants to cast. But I think he was like these are the two people who are my

[01:46:10] friends. I think they're excellent performances. My friend will not name has this whole kind of like these fucking Jewish boys can't even they cast schicksals. They can't acknowledge like their Jewishness to this day. Even though even they're making the Jewish movie. There's a little part

[01:46:26] of that and I do think there is a deeply in Armageddon time I actually kind of meant like it in a meta way because it's like they're trying to assimilate you know what I mean. Which I guess is sort of true. We almost even talk

[01:46:38] around the same thing around this a little bit in the Eyes Wide Shut episode. But I do think there is this aspect of these guys where it's like there is anti-Semitism in our culture. The anti-Semitism maybe doesn't exist in the film industry in terms of the people

[01:46:52] you're interfacing with because the industry is very Jew heavy right disproportionately so to other industries in America. But I do think there is ingrained anti-Semitism that when it comes to actually making the movies you're like people are going to like it if it's too Jewish right.

[01:47:08] I do think even though it's hard to have Jewish studio heads and investors and producers and everyone working on the movie they're like but we obviously have to take a half step back. There's that little feeling of like the rejection from the audience. The one I always

[01:47:23] throw out that's the most galling to me is this is where I leave you and it's mostly galling because the movie's bad. It's a bad movie. Directed by a Jew based on a book written by a Jew and it's all about sitting Shiva and it's any Jew in

[01:47:36] Jane Fonda Jason and it's all about the Jewish guy who is a Jewish driver who I give a pass to. Why do you give him a pass? Because he's got the right neurosis. So does Tina Fey! Tina Fey I think is a little off. She's Greek!

[01:47:50] It's like it's the whole thing where like this is my counterpoint to when my Jewish friends get mad about quote unquote Jew face. Yes. Where I'm like bitch. I say bitch which is rude. My friends are nice people. It's how you talk to people. I'm like I've been

[01:48:08] playing Mediterranean people for years. Lord knows we got away with playing some other people we probably should have been playing. It's always been this kind of like you're white or you're ethnic white and I do think it's tough to shed some of that. So I see Tina Fey

[01:48:23] playing a Jew I'm like eh she's Greek. She's funny. And maybe I shouldn't. No it's a weird balancing act. I never saw this Riley view. I mean the movie's just not good and now he's live making a star. I am too. That's so crazy we haven't talked about

[01:48:39] this. J.D. Dillard just announced in an interview he made this film Devotion. He was like sadly I don't think my Star Wars project is going to happen. I'm like you don't you had a Star Wars project. I never even heard about this. No everyone has

[01:48:54] had a Star Wars project. Yes. Ben also is now doing two Star Wars projects. I'm really excited. I think they're gonna be good. Yeah. I mean you know I don't know what all this to say. The thing Spielberg said was that the main performance that convinced him

[01:49:11] to cast Michelle Williams is Gwen Verdon which makes a lot of sense. Yeah totally. He he mentioned Blue Valentine is sort of like that's my favorite Michelle Williams performance but he said that's when she really saw Fosse Verdon emotional depths the technical skill of this person

[01:49:27] but Fosse Verdon he was like that's kind of my mother but Fosse Verdon he was right. He was like I had the hyper fragile consummate performer this person who is like a ball of light and energy but also it's all on the surface you know bruises so easily.

[01:49:41] Yes. So they have this devastating confrontation. They do. Yes with his mother. Yes. And and then shortly thereafter they have to move to California right. Gets a new job. Yeah. And it's the same thing where she's like you better bring Benny and he's like I can't

[01:49:57] like this is and it's the new job is IBM and it's like I'm gonna get a job at IBM. It's the new job is IBM right. He's like he's made it to the top of the mountain and he's like I have already taken Benny further than he would

[01:50:10] have gotten on this exact and it's like I cannot you know essentially put myself on the line right away here and be like you have to hire my best friend like you know and she's like it will break my heart but this is the thing

[01:50:23] it does feel like he can do it and he's like unconsciously he's like no more like this is right right right and it's it just oh it just feels like everything's you know splitting at the seams yes a little bit every everyone is finally like we

[01:50:36] need to speak the unspoken things a little bit Sammy Fableman goes to cash in trade in his old camera Uncle Benny is there yes one of these scenes that really gets me because like I have this thing in a movie where I'm like when someone gets something

[01:50:54] yeah it's like hey I bought you this thing and the kid declines it because it's like an emotional moment in the movie I'm like oh come on don't you have it's sort of like the same thing as I always say we're like where people don't eat the

[01:51:07] food yeah I'm like guys don't waste it like take the camera look there's something so sweet to the fact that Rogan is doing this right it's very sweet but it initially you understand Sammy's thing of like you're trying to buy me off you're trying to be

[01:51:21] the fun dad you've always been and now I see through you and I don't want it and the whole speech Benny has where he's like it's gonna break your mother's heart if you don't make movies anymore and he also understands that like he's been a balance between the

[01:51:34] two parents yeah and if they move away his mother is gonna be a mess and his dad's probably gonna win the argument that you shouldn't make the movies anymore right right and you already seem to be doing that maybe I don't totally understand why although I imagine Michelle

[01:51:50] Williams has communicated the thing about the film to him maybe I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't think she ever did he clearly knows that's the vibe right and what starts to feel like is this a buy off thing becomes like

[01:52:05] I am actually doing this out of the genuineness of my heart and to convince you of that I will own up to you hating me right like he basically says I understand why you hate me and it is fine right I get it the thing remove this item

[01:52:19] from that equation right you need to have this and you need to keep doing this turn me into the enemy that is okay right um and the thing I figured was that he would eventually end up moving with him but he doesn't no like when she remarries

[01:52:37] when she leaves him and gets with him she is leaving she goes back to Arizona she goes back yeah um and I sympathize with her in so many ways one that just that she is sort of this constrained person it is so difficult to just like

[01:52:54] do the housewife thing yeah you know we just made that scene is really gutting yeah and it is played for laughs because at first when you are hearing the nails tapping I am like that is such a good Spielberg memory little detail and you are like oh no

[01:53:14] the whole scene is about the nails yes um she is giving this recital she has got these beautiful long nails she is practicing she is going to perform on television she has got these giant nails and she is like I am going to perform on television with these

[01:53:33] no one will hear you playing and of course Dano's response is like especially with the mics they have he is like a technical level and so they clip her nails kind of against her will yes in this way where she is laughing the whole time

[01:53:50] but you are also like Jesus I don't know there is something weird about it there is something that becomes yeah and it is just one of those yeah encapsulations of like she could be with the joke could be kind of really up and manic and then suddenly

[01:54:09] kind of like completely out of it and it is hard to read her mood are they suppressing her like spirit why are they making her conform to having normal sized nails and it is like because you want to play music it is not like we are trying yeah

[01:54:27] it is a bit like when she arrives home in California with a monkey on her shoulder which is a real thing Steven Spielberg's mother did she is like I want to laugh and it is one of these things heartbreaking yes it is heartbreaking and she names the monkey

[01:54:45] Benny and everyone is like now you put two fine points a little bit now you have said the thing And the entire, all the kids, as someone who has moved across the country to another country, across the ocean, when I was nine years old. It sucks. It sucks.

[01:55:07] Sure. You never did a big move. You were never right. No, no, no, no. We moved from the seventh floor to the eleventh floor in the same building. Were you crying and being dragged up the stairs? Your nails digging into the carpet? Absolutely.

[01:55:23] You know, and like, fucking Spielberg's character is like, you know, 16 at this point, 17. Like it's brutal to uproot yourself. It just feels like, you know, I mean, I knew again his parents got divorced, but it feels like the end. Yeah.

[01:55:41] And when they see that house, that like cool modernist house that they're going to live in, but they never do live in, right? They never do live in it. Well, this is the later move. This is when he gets the promotion. That's and then the divorce happens.

[01:55:51] Once they move into the house where they keep on saying like, it's a rental, it's temporary. And it is this kind of weird haunted house. We're never going to pack it up. The modernist house, by the time he finally shows them the modernist house that they're

[01:56:00] moving into, the marriage is over. The next scene after the home video footage of the home film footage of the modernist house is the divorce announcement. Right. Yeah. But like, yeah, the modernist house feels like him being trying to save it in like one last way. Right.

[01:56:19] And then he keeps on saying like, do you not understand I'm working to get us a better life. I'm moving up in the company. This is all going so well. And they're like, no amount of money is going to make her happy. Meanwhile, she's getting a monkey.

[01:56:30] Like she's going more chaotic. Yes. You know, like she's going the opposite direction of him. They finally get her to agree to go into therapy. When they divorce, there's we should mention that we can talk briefly about Sammy gets a Christian girlfriend and it's very funny. Not briefly.

[01:56:47] We talked about this a lot. Two hours. Yeah. Yeah. You know, these I think but it's sort of like the divorce, it the divorce conversation already mentioned it like it feels mundane and it feels like the divorce conversation we've seen the classic like we're sitting the kids down.

[01:57:01] This is not your fault. This is what dare you do this to us? Who's the bad guy? Let's find the victim. It's just the crucial thing is obviously we don't want to find the guy who did this. We all want to find the guy who did this.

[01:57:11] But it's just the crucial thing is just that shot of him in the reflected in the being like this would be such a good scene in the movie someday. But goes high school experiencing anti-Semitism for the first time. Yes, he's got this sort of big strapping Aryan bully.

[01:57:28] Yes. Who is that? The one that's played by Oaks Fegley. No, Oaks Fegley is the other one. Oaks Fegley is Chad who's kind of the the the grease or I mean, right? Like the kid with anger issues. I guess it's the best way to put it. Right.

[01:57:41] Logan, who's played by Sam Reckner. That's his first performance. He's very, I mean, he's very, very good in one specific scene, especially my favorite scene because initially, yeah, I mean, I agree. Initially, the scene that finally brought me to tears and I would not have expected

[01:57:55] from the outside looking at that would be the scene that break me. I was like, I get it though. So a lot of this movie and that scene just knocking out. We will talk about it in a moment.

[01:58:05] Because like before then they are a little bit generic brand bullies. Not that I know Steven Spielberg is dealing with like he was bullied at school. Yes. I feel like it feels like we're watching an old movie. It's movie.

[01:58:17] Yeah, they're like we're in one of these California high schools where everyone's outside all the time. We're jungle or they're like, meet me outside, kid. Yeah. Punching you in the stomach and all that. Absolutely. But here's right.

[01:58:29] Here's this Aryan boy who the sort of Weasley Greaser kid uses as like muscle to enforce his anger. Right. And as much as they all like sadistic, sociopathic teenage boys do enjoy the sport of picking this kid's vulnerable spot, which is, of course, his Judaism. Yeah.

[01:58:49] It feels like the Oaks Feagly is the only one who is genuinely maybe driven by a pure anti-Semitic hate. Right. The rest of them are kind of going along with the fun of showing dominance. The bullies are who they are. But then he does get a girlfriend, Ben.

[01:59:07] He kind of has a crush on Logan's girlfriend, I feel like. Right. Correct. She's the one who's initially nice to him. Yes. But then it is the her more overtly religious friend who is then drawn to him as this like exotic forbidden fruit.

[01:59:24] Well, the reason why he ends up then meeting and getting this girlfriend, it's because he says like, oh, I saw him making out with the redhead. Yeah. He genuinely sees Logan cheating on his girlfriend, high school girlfriend, making out with someone else.

[01:59:45] And then Logan is like, you cannot have said that. You must reverse your opinion. You must just tell her, I made it up. They gang up on him in volleyball, a scene I found pretty triggering. And then he sees him making out.

[02:00:02] He sort of can't look away in his forever observer role. Yeah, right. But then he accidentally slips, make a noise, is caught. They're getting up on him outside. He's got the one trump card, which is I can fucking call this out.

[02:00:17] And then she calls out this actress who, by the way, was in licorice pizza. Oh, was she? She plays the girl that I feel like Cooper Hoffman has a crush on. And then Skylar Gisondo comes in and starts like flirting with her instead.

[02:00:30] She's one of the other actor, child actors in the movie. Right? Then she is in this. And just today I saw paparazzi photos from the beginning of filming on Francis Ford Coppola's Megalopolis. She's in that as well.

[02:00:43] Well, fucking first three movies are Paul Thomas Anderson, Steven Spielberg and Francis Ford Coppola. What's her name? I don't know. Let's see. This is Logan's girlfriend. I know. But what's her name? I'm going to say it's a lighter redhead one. Yeah. Uh, is she Chloe East? Yes.

[02:01:01] No, Chloe East is the one who ends up dating. Chloe East is the girlfriend. Is the Christian girlfriend. Yes. Yes, she is. Who's been on a, like an ABC family show or whatever. And I looked her up.

[02:01:11] She has like YouTube videos from when she was like 12 of like how to redecorate your room that have like a million views. She was one of these weird fucking YouTube kids. Isabel Kussman or Kussman. She's the one who's starting out her career. With a bang. With a bang.

[02:01:29] Bang, bang. Um, but yes, he gets knocked out, but she can tell, well, you knew that the girl was a redhead. I knew which girl that was. That's the one he keeps on cheating on me with. You knew something. Yeah.

[02:01:43] They make him go apologize, say he was lying and she's like, but you knew. Right. Is it true that you're Jewish? They're both sort of fascinated by him as a novelty. This girl's obsessed with Jesus. She is. She's raised by a religious family.

[02:02:01] But she also like is obsessed with Jesus as a heartthrob status. She thinks he's hot. It's like teen beat. Yeah. Like pinups. That's how she has gotten into being religious. Ricky Nelson. Yes. Jesus. He's hot. Yes. Look, Jesus is often presented as a hottie.

[02:02:18] I like when he's like, we don't know what Jesus looked like. And she's like, no, he looked like this. He looked like this handsome man. You kind of look like him. You're Jewish too. Yes.

[02:02:27] You're like, at first I'm like, does she like him because it feels like an act of rebellion to date a Jewish boy? And there's probably a little bit of that, but there's even more of the like, well, Jesus was Jewish.

[02:02:37] If I'm going to find my Jesus, he can't already be a Christian. But yeah, he's look, he's the frickin, you know, he's the forbidden fruit. I don't know how else to describe it. I think he's so insane. She is so insanely good. She's really funny.

[02:02:51] It feels very similar to the Amy Adams performance in Catch Me If You Can. Sure, sure. Yeah. In a real good way, in a sort of statement way. Like oh, this is someone who we might be following for years and years to come as an actor.

[02:03:05] And so then later there's the fight at the dinner table. Right. Watch Jeannie Berlin comes back over. The girlfriend's invited over for dinner. They're fighting about the monkey and everything else. Right. They're asking why he stopped filming stuff. Right.

[02:03:23] The mom calls out that he still sleeps with the camera under his pillow. Yeah. Even if he's abandoned it, like he's still, it's his real love. And she's like, why aren't you filming this? There's the senior ditch day. You should film that. They're looking for photographers.

[02:03:36] This is the thing. And the girlfriend mentions that her dad has the Aeroflex camera. Right. The 35 millimeter. Or I think it's 16, but it's like a big step up. Yes. And it's like this kid has been like disavowing film and filmmaking.

[02:03:53] Because it was, he sees it as this like poisonous thing. Right. And the second she says like, he's got a thing, it's called like an R. It's like the Airflex. He knows everything about it. He starts like naming the technical stats of it. Right. It's cool.

[02:04:06] Jeannie Berlin will give him the money for the film reels. They convinced the dad to rent the editing equipment. Like sort of against his will. And then he shoots ditch day at the beach, which is like a classic. It looks so classic, like California.

[02:04:23] Very 60s surf movie kind of thing. And he, look, yeah, this is the important thing. He shows it at prom and. Let's also say when they hook up, when she, when he goes over to her house, let's pray whatever.

[02:04:35] You're like, is this something where they're going to hook up one time that she's going to be embarrassed by him and like pretend to not know him the next day? No, she likes him. She comes over for dinner, where they go to ditch date.

[02:04:42] They're like together the whole time. Fuck, he's actually got a girlfriend. But then when he says he loves her, she freaked out justifiably. This is the big. I just like that she's just like, wait a second. She's not like, no, I love you too.

[02:04:55] She's like, I guess this is kind of a sex thing. Having seen too many movies, I was like, is this going to be a thing where the next scene she goes like, I mean, I can't date a Jew. I don't know you. Right. No, they are together.

[02:05:07] As you said, it's sort of a more like having fun thing, forbidden fruit kind of thing. But they're together. They go to this dance. They go to the dance. He shows. Well, no, first he says, you ever think about coming to L.A. with me? Yeah.

[02:05:24] She's like, aren't you going to college? He's like, I want to go to L.A. I want to like. He wants to be a movie. I want to be doing the movie thing. Why don't you come out with me? She's like, I got into another school.

[02:05:31] What are you talking about? She's got a fucking life to live. What are you trying to say? And he's like, I love you. He's all mixed up because of the divorce, obviously. Right. And she's like, what are you talking about?

[02:05:41] And he's like, look, my parents are getting divorced. She's like, wait, what? And at first my thought was she's rejecting him because she comes from such a religious background. The idea that divorce is happening. And said she's just like, oh, I'm reading you. I understand what's going on.

[02:05:55] She gets it. You're overcompensating. This doesn't even have anything to do with me, really. She's she's smart. Then Principal James Urbaniak comes up. Sure does. And it's like time to screen the movie. Hey, come on, kid. Yeah. Oh, the film to screen here.

[02:06:11] I've got some porn written glasses on. I brought them myself from set. You paid me one hundred dollars. James Urbaniak will someday be a guest on the show. We need to have him on. He shows this movie. But he's like dreading it.

[02:06:24] This is actually getting funny how every time I try and tee it up. Because this is the most important scene in the movie. He's fucking dreading it. And you're like, is he just so bruised by the rejection? Slash did he phone this in?

[02:06:35] Is he not like is this you know, he's has he not found it again? He basically says, please don't make me do this. Spools it up. The thing is incredible. It's like a perfect Annette Funicello beach blanket bingo.

[02:06:46] And you see all the stuff paying off because there's like little clips when they're at the beach of like dropping like yogurt ice cream on people's faces. What is this? Yeah. What is this going to be? And you're like, oh, he actually like stage. He lands some gags.

[02:06:57] Yeah. Everyone's laughing. And any time they cut to someone in the beat lands, they'll like stand up in the audience. Their friends will pat him on the back. It's like he's making everyone feel right. He did a good job to include everyone.

[02:07:08] But Logan is the hero of his movie. And he's hot as fuck. He's like this sort of like strapping golden glowing movie. And he's like filming him running on the beach in slow motion. He's making Oaks Fegley look like a fucking dunce. Yeah, yeah. He right.

[02:07:23] He's he is pretty brutal to like it's being pulled out from under him. Whatever the beach blanket. But but yes, but he's making Logan look so goddamn good. Right. Right. Then there's this incredible Spielberg one. We talk about the school of Spielberg.

[02:07:38] If you can distill what is his superpower to one thing, it's like his fucking blocking. Right. Right. I love Nope is one of my favorite movies of the year. But Nick Lariano, former co-researcher on the show, had a tweet thread about it where

[02:07:53] he was talking about like in Nope, Peel is trying to do the Spielberg winners. Yeah. And he does them better than most people do. Yeah. But the magic what Spielberg is able to do, which no one else can do if you watch something

[02:08:04] like Jaws, is that he will have the one or that will go on for so long that will start as one shot morph into another shot, move morph into another shot. And at every single moment, the composition is perfect.

[02:08:16] Even when people are crossing frame and rearranging and the camera shifting and the plane is shifting somehow even in the transitional stages where it's morphing, it's always perfect and is communicating the story. There's never any sloppiness.

[02:08:28] And this is one of those sequences where there's the shot where it's like the movie stops. The redhead girl runs up to Logan and is like, Logan, you look really good. Right. Right. Is talking to him.

[02:08:42] You're like, OK, the girlfriend is now going to come up furious that he's talking to the redhead girl. Right. Instead, she pushes the redhead girl away and just starts kissing Logan because she is so fucking horned up by the magic of the movies. Right.

[02:08:54] Then we follow Christian girlfriend as she loops around behind them, goes over the projector to look for Sammy and Sammy's gone. And even though she just was like, Sammy, lose my fucking number. Now she's kind of horned up for Sammy. And where is Sammy?

[02:09:09] It's just this shot that transforms four times in the wake of how everyone's perception has changed. Everyone else post this movie screening and Sammy is the one person nowhere to be found. Yeah. And he is sitting in a fetal position, hunched in the hallway by the lockers.

[02:09:26] And Logan comes over and he is fucking irate. Yeah. Why did you do that? Why did you do? Why would you do that? What are you talking about? And it's not what I love about this scene. It is so complicated. It's not at all simple.

[02:09:39] What he even means. And he doesn't even totally know what he's asking. No, but it's this combination of why did you make me look? Why did you make me the hero of your movie when I've been so cruel to you? Is this some incredibly perverse thing?

[02:09:52] There has to be some ultimate Carrie style bucket of blood dropped on my head. You couldn't set me up. What's the right? What's the turn here? When does the shoot drop? And he says the thing where he's like, she just kissed me.

[02:10:12] She's right now nicer to me than she's ever been before. She idolizes me more than she ever has before. And I'm even meaner to her than I am to you. And Sammy has that incredible line where he's just like, I don't know. I don't know.

[02:10:24] And it's like, why did you do this? And he's like, I don't know. Maybe I wanted you to be nice to me for 20 seconds. Maybe I just thought it would make for a better movie. I don't know.

[02:10:33] But it's, I mean, there is a homoerotic edge to it that sort of distressed him, right? Like why did you make me look so beautiful? You know, like. But it's the same part of him that's just like, it's a good image.

[02:10:44] I don't care if it's my mom or it's my bully. Then it's a good image. But he's also like, you are, I get like, I... You're popping. Yeah. You're fucking a movie star. You're the only one who you're a star potential.

[02:10:53] You know, I looked around, I filmed a lot of stuff and you, I'm sorry, you made the cut. You're number one. You've got it. And I can't help but make you look good. It's so, it's suck.

[02:11:03] I don't know why I did it either, but I fucking did it because guess what? I just, everyone there was eating down the palm of my hand. He's angry at himself. He's like, I wish there was some trick. I wish there was a justification.

[02:11:18] I chose the best footage. It's like so good, but also not a conscious decision. Once again, he's just like, I don't fucking know why I did it. But it does feel like Spielberg to this day, like looking at the sky and being like these gifts. I'm a monster.

[02:11:32] You know, like, you know, like it's a little bit of that. Yes. Cause he's scared. I can't help myself. He's scared by himself doing that. And he has that speech where he's like, I run faster than anyone in this state. I work really hard for that.

[02:11:48] And I look at that guy up on the screen and I don't run as fast as he does. You've turned me into something I'm not like, you've turned me into something I can never live up to. Which is this fucking power of the movies thing.

[02:11:58] It's like you've created some a static truth that I now who have has always felt so fucking confident in myself. I will now feel inferior for the rest of my life because I can't live up to the fake version of me that you created.

[02:12:12] And I don't understand why you would do that to me. And he like breaks down crying. It rules. It's very, very good scene. And it is kind of the crux of the movie. Right? Chills. Yeah. Chills.

[02:12:25] And he goes like, you better never ever fucking tell anyone that this happened. So he was like, I won't unless I make a movie about it. And then you're watching that fucking movie right now. And then he goes, well, I won't. I won't.

[02:12:39] Why would I ever make that movie? Unless I make a movie about it. Maybe, you know, I don't know, 50, 60 years. It's an incredible joke. And yet somehow... The biggest laugh the movie got, I would say, in my audience.

[02:12:50] Yet somehow there is arguably still a greater meta joke coming. It's really like right after this is really just like... Here's the final scene with the mother. What is the final scene with her? Where they're in the kitchen and he's like, so she dumped me.

[02:13:05] And she's like, why? And he's like, because I asked her to marry me. And she goes, really? And he goes all but. It's so funny that like even just 12 hours later, he recognizes saying I love you was way too intense. He basically was saying to her, marry me.

[02:13:21] Even though I don't think he literally thought he was saying that in that moment. For sure. And they have the conversation. She is like, I need to apologize for the slap. And he's like, the Chris Rock thing? That won't happen for another 50 years.

[02:13:36] She's like, no, the time I slapped you. Thumbs down. Thank you. Thank you. But they have this final like, all of my tension with you is probably because I see too much of myself in you.

[02:13:49] And her basically apologizing that he had to be burdened with knowing this whole thing, being stuck in the middle of this dynamic, all of this. It's a heartbreaking scene. It's the scene that should win Michelle Williams her supporting actress nomination.

[02:14:03] An award that she will instead probably lose to Michelle Yeoh or Cate Blanchett. I would say she's going to be runner up. I don't know who Cate Blanchett is. Lydia Tarr will be winning the Oscar for playing herself in the film, Tarr. I think Michelle Yeoh could win.

[02:14:16] I think it could go either way. David's shaking his head. No, I don't think so. But I do think she'll get a nomination. I'm very hopeful she'll get a nomination, honestly. She would probably win supporting in a cakewalk though. Michelle? Yes. Yeah.

[02:14:30] But I would argue it's category fraud. It's Oscar politicky where it's like, you know, it's kind of like she's got, you know, partly because the category is a little weaker, yada, yada, yada. I don't think it's category fraud.

[02:14:38] At the very least, I will say, I think there's legitimate cases for either. I also hate the term category fraud. Well, I think you're a category fraud. Exactly. Because it just makes it sound like some crime and I'm like, guys, let's all relax. It's crime and art.

[02:14:49] Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot. There are no crimes in art. Exactly. Frank told me that. So we were jumping ahead a little bit to this like slightly sadder apartment that dad lives in now. One year later. It's kind of single guy apartment. Freshman year of college.

[02:15:04] Sammy is bad at college. He keeps on coming home and staying with his dad in the apartment rather than staying in the dorm because his roommates driving him crazy. And a real I want to drop out of college move. Right. Yes.

[02:15:16] And he, you know, he's having a panic attack. He thinks he's having a heart attack. But his dad sort of like the doctor puts his head to his chest and is like, all right, this is a panic attack. Your mother has them. You're fine.

[02:15:29] But there's the dad doesn't want to see the pictures, though. That's what I remember. Well, right. Like that's that's right. Is that the same? Is that the same? They get the letter from the mom. From the mom. It's weird. It's just random pictures of some backyard party. Right.

[02:15:41] And then the dad looks at the one and like turns away. And it's Seth Rogen is like grilling or whatever. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Like that. That's the thing I remember. Honestly, it's just like as much as Dano is being a mensch about the whole thing. Yes.

[02:15:54] He is so heartbroken. Yes. Right. Like he can't really handle it. He tries to give his son the ultimate gift, which is. A hundred dollars. Spend on whatever he wants. People think more money is a greater gift. It isn't.

[02:16:09] One hundred is the best gift you can ever get. And it can buy you love. It can. It can. A hundred and one can't. Nope. No, he says like you basically he was in the Rogen speech. He's like, you have to do this.

[02:16:19] I can't stop you from doing this. Right. You should go. You should pursue this. Right. Right. But he even when he's trying to free his son from the burden of the expectations. There's the final knife jab where he goes, maybe it's my fault.

[02:16:34] Maybe I should have stomped this out while you were young and I still had the chance. But now it's too late. Sure. It's so heartbreaking. Yeah. It's sort of an anti endorsement. But you love this. You're very good at this. You should do it.

[02:16:46] But also, oh boy, I wish you didn't want to. Yeah. It's like it's my fault. At this point, I have to own the mistake that I didn't stop you from pursuing this stupid thing while I could can.

[02:16:54] And there's this weird line where Sammy replies with like, I'll show you. I'll make a movie about a dinosaur theme park and then you'll love me. Yeah. I thought that line was a little on a little on the nose. Yeah. Yeah. Right. I'll show you.

[02:17:08] I'm going to make a whole company where there's a boy in a moon fishing for films for dreams. David, the fucking logo at the beginning of this movie. What is the universal logo? Yeah. And then he starts writing in front of you. You have a versus. Yes. Yes.

[02:17:22] Yes. It turns into Amblin. Right. This is the new thing. This is Spielberg's first universal movie in 10 years. Is that true? He was we go through because he was obviously predominantly universal guy and DreamWorks, but DreamWorks and Universal did a lot of stuff together. Yes.

[02:17:36] His last universal film. Wow. Was was Munich. And that was like Universal DreamWorks. So that doesn't even you know, like his last like full universal film was the Lost World Jurassic Park. Right. OK. It just looks even the DreamWorks relationship with Universal.

[02:17:52] He was still sort of in bed with them. And then like then DreamWorks went over to Disney. And then he's been free agent around. He did two Foxes. He did a Warner Brothers. Ray Page one was Warner Brothers. Post and West Side Story were Fox. BFG was Disney.

[02:18:08] Lincoln, BFG, Bridges, Sprys were all Disney. Well, yeah. Lincoln and Bridges Sprys were Fox, weren't they? Or maybe not. Were they Disney? No, they were Touchstone. They were Touchstone. Yeah. OK. Anyway. Yeah. Touchstone became the DreamWorks label for like six years.

[02:18:23] Like Tintin was a weird like Paramount Sony thing. Paramount Nickelodeon. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Sony was international. That logo felt like Universal being like, he's back, baby. We got him. He does not like Warner Brothers anymore. No.

[02:18:35] And it felt very similar to Universal rolling out the red carpet for Nolan being like, we now want to be the most director friendly studio. 100 percent. Right. Yeah. Come to us. Anyway. So the final scene of the film.

[02:18:46] Look, I knew that David Lynch was in this film playing John Ford. I was aware of this. His casting had been announced and then I'd heard the sort of scuttlebutt of like, do you know who is playing John Ford? Now, had you heard the John Ford story?

[02:18:58] I had heard the John Ford story before, but I couldn't remember it exactly. I just remember there was John Ford being like, look at that painting. You know, like I remember that. I believe I invoked in the war horse episode. You've invoked it at some point. Right.

[02:19:09] And I can't remember when. But I know there's the promotional tour for Cowboys and Indians. He told it because there was John Ford directed. John Ford did direct. There are these YouTube videos where it's like Grazer, Spielberg, Howard Favreau, the four masters, the Titans.

[02:19:24] And it's just them talking about the cinematic arts. It's them trying to be like Favreau, welcome to the club. Right. And there's one of those videos that went semi-viral with him telling that story in the directed by John Ford documentary that Bogdanovich made. He tells the story.

[02:19:38] I think he told for an AFI thing once. He's told versions of the story before. So when you hear that David Lynch is going to play John, it's going to be this scene. It's going to be the scene. But it is.

[02:19:47] I have been waiting and then I've sort of forgotten about it. Then I'm like, wait a second. You're so deep in the movie. OK, so we're ending on this. Interesting. And it's just I mean, it's just perfect. He sits there, he waits. There's the old receptionist lady. Right.

[02:20:04] He comes in covered in smooches. Comes in covered in red lipstick. It's like my fucking Lorne Michaels Y'all Get Sat Eventually story, which I've told in the pod before where it's like, I remember every single visual detail of these 90 seconds of my life. Yes. Right.

[02:20:19] It's so clear that every element of this is etched into his brain when he tells the story and all these interviews he talks about. He comes in covered in smooches. The receptionist falls after him. She walks out a minute later. The handkerchiefs are all red now.

[02:20:29] Like every single detail of this. So what is it exactly? Because you just saw it. Yeah. OK, so it's Bernie Fine says no, I can't help you. You don't want to know why he's reading. I mean, like, what is the painting? Look at the painting.

[02:20:44] He says, yeah, he's a kid. What do you know about art? Right. He's smoking a big pipe. Everyone's warning him like Stogie. Five minutes. It's probably one. Right. Yeah. Take off the tie. He'll like you more. Right. You have a better shot.

[02:20:58] It is really funny how they're all right. They're trying to prep him. Yeah. Right. And then he walks in and tries to do the like, Mr. Ford, I love your movies. Shut up. Yeah. I don't want to talk about that. Sucking on this fucking cigar. Right.

[02:21:09] And he's like, art. What do you know about art? And he's like, well, I love movies. Not movies. Art. Right. He's like, go over there. Look at that painting. What do you see? And he's like, it's like the cowboy. No, no, no, not that. The horizon.

[02:21:24] Where's the horizon? Here at the bottom. Okay. Next. Next painting. Look at the next painting. That one. Yeah. What do you see? And he repeats the same mistake. Right. He's like, it's a cowboy. No, no, no, no, no, no. Fuck that. Where's the horizon? Up at the top.

[02:21:40] Yeah. And he then I believe he just basically says if the horizon is at the top, it's interesting. If the horizon is at the bottom, it's interesting. If the horizon is in the middle, it's fucking boring. I'll get the fuck out of my office.

[02:21:56] Now the time Spielberg has told this story in different places, sometimes it changes a little bit in the Cowboys and Indians version, which I rewatched. The Cowboys and Aliens version. We watched Cowboys and Aliens. The movie. And then why did I rewatch this? Yeah.

[02:22:14] I rewatched the I never maybe seen the full directed by John Ford thing as well last night. So I rewatched that or watched it. And I watched this Cowboys and Aliens video in that version. He tells it.

[02:22:25] John Ford says if you can figure out the difference between what it means when the horizon's at the top and at the horizon's at the bottom, then maybe, maybe you have a chance of making a decent picture. Yes.

[02:22:37] I feel like Spielberg has turned it into something more funny. Right. Because it's a movie. He takes a little bit of the import away from it. But the lesson of that is basically for the first time he's talking to someone who actually

[02:22:47] does this thing and says to him, like, you know, they tell me you're a picture maker. Dismissive. He's not impressed with you. Now he's basically like, you got to you need to learn what you want to say. Right. Right.

[02:23:02] Here's this kid at this whole movie has just not really understood why he's good at making movies. It opens doors for him. It changes his relationships to other people in ways both good and bad. He doesn't know what he wants to say.

[02:23:13] The movies he's making are all just it'd be fun to make a war movie because I just saw a war movie with my friends. It'd be fun to make a Western because I just saw a man who shot Liberty Valance or whatever.

[02:23:21] And for the first time, Ford's basically saying to him, you need to understand what these images are saying and what you want to say with them. Right. He walks out. This is it. Because I knew the fourth and I sort of knew the parameters of the fourth story.

[02:23:36] The thing that surprised me was the final shot of the movie. And I've seen so many people say, Griffin, you're going to lose your fucking mind when you see the final shot of this movie. And I'm like, what could this be? It's him running through the studios.

[02:23:49] You know, he's on the lot. Much like the tar ending, which I will not spoil for anyone because it's not a tar ending at tar episode. Yeah. So many people say you will not believe the fucking ending of tar.

[02:23:57] And I'm like, well, now I'm ruined because I'm gonna spend the whole movie trying to guess what the ending is. But you couldn't. You can't. You truly can't. It is fundamentally impossible to guess the ending of tar. Yes. And I'm sitting here up until this last moment.

[02:24:07] I'm like, what fucking shot could he pull out at this moment? And if it's just this shot of him walking down the alleyway in between the studios and the back lot, the sound stages like that's a nice shot. But why do people say this was a knockout?

[02:24:21] And then there's a fucking herky jerky camera tilt to frame up. The camera essentially drops to the floor to look up. Yes. So the horizon again, it's like one of the legs of the tripod goes out so that no longer the horizon is at the middle. Yes.

[02:24:38] It's in a more interesting place. Oh God. It makes me so happy. But it's also one of these things where it's like, it's one of these moments that takes you out of the movie pointedly to say.

[02:24:48] Initially Spielberg was going to say cut and he decided that's too cheesy. The one step. I just want the camera to drop. Right. But you just suddenly become aware of the construction. This is a movie. And you're also like, huh, it does look better. It does.

[02:25:03] He was right. Like it's Spielberg being both like this is fundamental and like this is a thing I can't ever not do. But he's just like it's easy. Put the camera on the floor.

[02:25:13] When it happens, at the first moment I was like, this is really sloppy for a Spielberg movie. Like it took a millisecond for me to process. That's funny. Yeah. And then I was like, oh my God. The camera fell down. Hey, hey, someone pick up the camera.

[02:25:27] It's usually smoother on the moves. You're going to break it. It's a full down expensive camera. You know how expensive they are? So this whole movie has been about these fucking expensive cameras. What a picture. I turned to Ben. Four out of 25.

[02:25:41] I turned to Ben and I just say, I said, it's all in there. I said, what? Yeah. He eventually went, what the fuck are you talking about? And I was like, that movie is about everything. That movie is about everything. It's not about movies in a glib way.

[02:25:56] It's about like all of us trying to understand why movies have any weird power over us. Why we want to watch these things, why we want to make these things. And simultaneously about understanding that you're never going to totally understand your

[02:26:07] parents, which is the fundamental tragedy that all of us will live through to some degree or another in our lives. You know, it's about feelings and how difficult it is to express them. And how to find a language in your life to be able to express them.

[02:26:20] Not to invoke Tar again, in fact, but I just saw Tar with my wife. I saw her. I saw Lydia. I met her again. I'd seen her before, meet her again. She's real. And at the end of the movie, I'm like doing what you're doing.

[02:26:31] I'm like going on about what I liked about it. And what's so interesting about the character. My wife was like, she's got a lot of feelings and she wants to express them. It's tough for her to express them. And I was like, that's why you married her.

[02:26:44] And that's how that's what's going on with Sammy Fableman. Let's play the box office game. Great. There is no box office game. Perfect. The movie hasn't come out. The movie comes out in a week. Yeah. I mean, I imagine that a little movie called Black Panther Wakanda Forever.

[02:26:59] Oh right. It comes out tomorrow at the time I recorded this. Will be atop the box office when Fableman's is limited release. Yeah, it'll be Black Panther Wakanda Forever. And then it will because that's the only movie coming out with wide release.

[02:27:13] What do you think Wakanda Forever is going to do? I feel like this is a question of is it going to be a little under the original or a little over the original? It'll be under the original, right? What was the original?

[02:27:22] The original is 209 I want to say. It'll be under that. Won't it? It's just hard these days to get that. Right. I think it'll be like 150. That would be a lot under. I feel like most people are guessing between 175 and 190.

[02:27:36] And Disney's like, maybe we can outdo the original by like 2 million. Damn. I mean, good for them. I don't think so. I think it'll be like 175. How about that? Okay. Yeah, I think that's the safe bet. And then it's going to be like Black Adam Ticket to Paradise.

[02:27:53] You know, La La Crocodile. Black Adam doing like 10 tickets. And like Smile. Paradise doing like 7. Yeah. La La Smile doing like 5 or 3. Yeah. And then maybe Armageddon time is expanding. So that'll probably do like 115, 120. Yeah, absolutely. Ben is opening the door to get our deli meat. Perfect timing.

[02:28:10] But yeah. You've seen Wakanda forever? Yes. You liked it? It is a very... I liked it okay. I liked it okay. It's a very... It has... It is... There's a really good movie that would have starred Chadwick Boseman in there and then Chadwick Boseman died.

[02:28:29] And it feels like the stuff... The Namor stuff. The stuff that was always there is the best part of the movie. But that doesn't totally work without... It's just tough to make a movie where everyone has to be sad because the guy's dead because

[02:28:42] the real guy is dead and that is sad. And it does a good job wrestling with it I would say. But it's just tough to make a fun movie, you know, and a comic book movie with like Marvel cameos in it. I was so surprised.

[02:28:54] But there's a lot of... I think it's a very interesting movie. Sure. Honestly. I'm excited to see it. I'm going to see it tomorrow. It's certainly the most excited I've been for a Marvel thing in a while.

[02:29:01] I was surprised that they got the movie up on its feet so quickly after Boseman died considering that Coogler was like, I did not know the script was done. It was written for him. Right. We had a totally different script.

[02:29:13] And when I saw the trailer and it was so forward with the grieving and the loss of this character, I was like, oh fuck, did he truly go back to the drawing board and totally rejigger the movie? Yeah.

[02:29:23] And everything I've heard now feels like he kept about half of the movie without T'Challa in it and made the other half about the absence of T'Challa. Half of the stuff you can tell, this should have had this other character. Sort of. Yeah.

[02:29:35] I mean, it works, but I don't know. I'm seeing it again tomorrow. With your wife? Yeah. So like I'll have more feelings on it, I guess. Yeah. Did she skip the last couple of Marvels in theaters? Thor, I was like, I ain't seeing that shit again. Right.

[02:29:51] And she didn't see Eternals? She did not see Eternals. She saw Spider-Man. She saw Eternals and Disney+. She saw Spider-Man. She saw Shang-Chi. She saw Doctor Strange in theaters. Black Widow? I don't like Disney+. Sure. Like that was more deep. Your wife?

[02:30:04] Yeah, she'll watch the Marvel movies, but she did not watch Love and Thunder in theaters. We watched that on Disney+. She started skipping some. I know a lot of it's being a mother now. It's partly, it's the parent thing. She would have seen Love and Thunder.

[02:30:14] No, no, no, it's true. I mean, but the thing with Love and Thunder was I had just seen it that week and I was like, I ain't fucking seeing that twice. Go with a friend or don't. Yeah. Like, you know, and like, she was just like, eh, whatever.

[02:30:25] How I felt. Still have not watched it. You should watch it. I'm going to at some point. I'm going to be cooped up in a hotel in Rochester. That's true. That's true. I think I'm gonna watch a lot of things I've been putting off. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[02:30:35] All right, we're done. Okay. Goodbye. The Fable Mins is an incredible movie. I think it rules. I loved it. It reminded me what I care about. Damn right. Now let's go eat some damn fucking. It smells so goddamn good. Yeah.

[02:30:46] And then we'll do a quick little Wendlandt Wild. Just a quick one. Yeah. So if you want to, if you want to go to the movies, you can go to the movies. I mean, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

[02:30:53] And then we'll do a quick little Wendlandt Wild. Just a quick one. Yeah. So if you want to, try to carbon date these records. Next week in release schedule is Nightmare Before Christmas. Uh, yes, correct. Right. Yes. You're going to get two Selecs.

[02:31:11] Yeah, you'll get Nightmare Before Christmas, James and the ... No, you'll get three Selecs and James and the Giant Peach and Monkey Bone. And then of course we will discuss Avatar the Way of Water on December 18th.

[02:31:23] And then we're going to be off for Christmas and New Year's and then back on January 8th with Coraline. This is boring stuff to talk about but now having seen a lot of these movies it does

[02:31:31] feel like Fableman's is winning best picture unless Babylon or Avatar are like transcendent masterpieces right? We'll see. Let's turn off the mics. I just think that Wakanda forever winning best picture thing is done. Oh yeah that was never gonna happen. I suppose if it was something like that.

[02:31:51] This is come on let's turn off the mic we did great. Fableman's we're hungry I gotta pee. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate review and subscribe. David is already pushing his microphone away.

[02:32:01] Thank you to Marie Barty for our social media and helping to produce the show. Thank you to Joe Bowen and Pat Reynolds for our artwork. Leigh Montgomery and The Great American Novel for our theme song. Alex Barron, AJ McKeon for our editing.

[02:32:16] Thank you to JJ Birch for our research even though he didn't do shit on this episode. Happy holidays JJ. Go to BlankCheckPod.com for some links to some real nerdy shit including our Patreon Blank Check special features where in the month of December we are uncovering the two

[02:32:33] national treasure movies and also talking The Walk. Tune in next week as we said for The Night Before Christmas a new miniseries entitled Ben Hosley's The Poundmare Before Caspmas. And as always we're about to eat some fucking pastrami sandwiches.

[02:32:58] Should I just get a quart of matzo ball soup? Yes. Do they have celery soda? They probably do. I mean I feel like this is actually good to have on mic because for this episode yeah yeah for Wendell and Wilde maybe not. Yeah they've got a celery.

[02:33:14] Oh you nut I hate that shit. It's so good. Medicinal. Yeah that is I love a tonic. Yes. A vegetable tonic. Yes. Cure my ailments. Yeah. My humors. I got the humors. Yes. Have you gotten your humors vaccine yet?

[02:33:31] Oh God just the bile and the what are the four humors fuck I want to look it up. The bile and the sorry the black bile and the phlegm those are the two I've had taking care of. Yeah. I'm gonna move pigs in blanket. Am I crazy?

[02:33:48] Yes you're insane don't do that. Don't do that. That'd be like bringing a monkey into the home. I wanted to laugh.