The Gift with Starlee Kine

[00:00:00] Somebody might come in here. You better podcast me fast. Two lines in this film are in the trailer and when I was watching this film, which I had not seen in 20 plus years.

[00:00:36] I saw when it came out. But then there were two lines that when they had and they're both early in the movie, I was like, I must have seen the trailer for this film like 50,000 times.

[00:00:48] I was gonna say, I feel like this was a big rotation trailer. I remember seeing the trailer a ton of times.

[00:00:53] I remember mostly thinking on demand rentals, post theater. Right? Like, you know, but it's do you want to guess the two lines or do you want me to tell you? I want you to tell me.

[00:01:01] The first is Keanu Reeves saying you mess with the devil, you could get burned. You know that one. Sure. The second one, which is the really important one, is Katie Holmes saying, what's the matter? See something bad? Yeah.

[00:01:13] That one. Which and then like in the trailer goes like, you know, but like I must have just seen the trailer for this film 40 billion times.

[00:01:21] Yeah. Yeah. It is just one of those trailers where you're just kind of like, huh, that movie that I'll never see that just exists as a trailer in my mind.

[00:01:28] And I remember the only thing that made me even consider seeing the movie at the time is like this guy's directing Spider-Man next.

[00:01:34] Like it was the movie coming out after he was announced to direct it. And I think instead I just went, I'll watch the Evil Dead movies and videos. I saw it.

[00:01:43] That was a timeline that it was, it was like a package deal of like this movie is coming out and the announcement of. He hired him post filming on this movie. Mid production.

[00:01:53] Right. Pretty much while he's making this movie and paid to delay post production on this film so he could get started on Spider-Man.

[00:01:59] And I think the research shows like, and he's been candid, like he wasn't that involved in the post production or as involved in the post production of this movie. No. So his head was in a very different place. Like his head was in Spider-Man. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:02:12] Like already. Like they wanted him so badly and they wanted the movie to go so fast and Spider-Man ended up getting pushed back.

[00:02:18] So if the timeline was not as stressed as they originally thought, but they were like, we will pay you paramount a million dollars, which is one tenth of the budget of this movie essentially.

[00:02:31] Like we'll pay you a million dollars to push your movie back nine months and let Sam Raimi work on Spider-Man and just edit very slowly. Wow.

[00:02:40] And it's yeah. Like his composer on this was Christopher Young, who's kind of his backup guy when he doesn't work with Elfman who did Spider-Man three. Yeah. And Christopher Young was like, yeah, we like met once. Yeah.

[00:02:50] And he was just sort of like, I trust you. And Christopher Young was like an Elfman protege. And it was like, you know, he was he just handed things off to his people a little bit.

[00:02:58] But yes, this movie came out and it was like, this is the last pre Spider-Man movie of Sam Raimi.

[00:03:04] And it also had that weird vibe. I mean, this career arc we've been talking about where it's like he starts out in genre movies, then he has this weird dip into like adult respectability.

[00:03:14] And then he comes out into Spider-Man. It's like you've now graduated into the highest level of genre movies. Because this is a genre movie. It's in between. Right. So this is I saw it as a young Oscar watcher because I was like Cate Blanchett leading role Oscar potential.

[00:03:29] And we talked about this before. We had a huge fight in an episode about you being such an Oscar watch forum. Cool kid. Very cool. Right. Just wanted to get that in. And how the narrative at the time was that Cate was fucking off.

[00:03:43] It was that she was like below Kidman, Moore, I feel like there's another. Winslet. Winslet was always in that weird territory where it's like she's an Oscar star, but is she a movie star? Yeah. She's a movie star.

[00:03:59] Absolutely. But I'm more meaning like she Winslet would do a lot of stuff. She would do art movies. She would do supporting roles. She would kind of bounce around because she'd already done Titanic.

[00:04:08] Right. But Titanic solidified the movie star forever so that I feel like her mantle could never be. I agree with you. But it does feel like she was just if you look at Titanic, it feels like she's pointedly swerving as far away from Titanic as she can.

[00:04:23] And it's almost not until. Because it's like Quills, Enigma, Iris. These are all supporting roles and sort of. I don't know. I feel like the time where she re grabs the gauntlet and goes like, I'm a leading lady. And similarly, it's that same year, right?

[00:04:40] Where it feels like Blanchett in between Elizabeth or let's say talented Mr. Ripley. Elizabeth is certainly. In between Elizabeth and 2004. And 2004 is. The Aviator. And also. Life Aquatic, which she's wonderful in. Yes. In between those two movies. She's kind of fucking up.

[00:04:58] Her only hits are these this series of films about like a Lord of Rings. Right. You know, like she is in those. Right. And she's good in them. But that almost feels like. But I'm going to read you her project.

[00:05:10] Yes. It's like, is she doomed to just be the lady who's giving a little bit of gravitas in one scene per Lord of the Rings movie? Is she doomed only be ethereal? Right. A hundred percent. And it was also like she is incredible in Elizabeth.

[00:05:21] That was the other thing I was a big fan of that movie as a young English royalty nerd or whatever I was. Whatever kind of horrible creature I was. A little confused, but we'll let you go on. Ben and I are looking at each other's scans.

[00:05:34] We're tilting our heads. Okay. Like a Gary Marshall dog reaction shot. Elizabeth, have you seen Elizabeth? You know, I never have. I believe that. Because I feel like it was one of those movies where people were like, this isn't actually that good. It's not actually.

[00:05:45] Never will either probably. That good. But it is, it's certainly better than Elizabeth the Golden Age. It's a, you know, a forgotten sequel. It is funny though. It's mostly like powerhouse acting stuff.

[00:05:55] When that movie came out, I think I assumed Cate Blanchett is someone who's been bubbling for a while and this is her breakthrough movie. Where in reality, it's like she pretty much came out of nowhere with that.

[00:06:05] She had been in Oscar and Lucinda, which was not a movie that went out. And then before that, she was like an Australian actress of no renown. There are few instances in the modern era of like a unknown actress getting the lead role in a movie like that.

[00:06:20] And not only it being like a big Oscar player, she's nominated for the Oscar, all that sort of shit. But everyone being like, well, this is Meryl Streep. This will be a huge, exactly a huge prestige actress. She is clearly decades of.

[00:06:34] She's not going to be an action movie. She's going to be like you say, a Meryl Streep type who plays real life people or whatever. But it was just like immediate anointment from that one movie. Yeah, well, she has the quality.

[00:06:45] When I was watching this movie, I was like, even before looking up her filmography, I was just like, where does this fall? This could have been her first movie.

[00:06:55] Everything about the minute she starts, she has a quality of you've already felt like she's not only could be the Meryl Streep, but she's already been the Meryl Streep in your life. It's weird. It feels like right. You're like, did I miss the 10 years before this? Yeah.

[00:07:09] She's been around and she's been developing because she just kind of arrived ready made. And her energy on screen is not just like, oh, this person's a confident performer. But it's like you've been we've loved you for 20 years.

[00:07:21] Right. Like an erased memory when she first entered our lives. So post Elizabeth. Yes. It's a lot of supporting roles in which she's good and a lot of lead projects that don't really work. That just don't exist. So Pushing Tin, kind of a classic.

[00:07:38] Huh? Everyone in this is famous. No one seems to care. Okay. So it's Blanchett, Jolie, Billy Bob. Yeah. Who's the other guy? Mr. John Cusack. At quite a height for him. A weird quartet.

[00:07:51] And like, but that was one of those things where it's like you say those four names. I'm like, I'm interested in like, you know who's crazy? Air traffic controllers. And I'm like, okay. And it's like, no, they're crazy. It's directed by Mike Newell. It is.

[00:08:03] Right. You're like, who's going to direct this wacky American? And I've got a great title for you that's going to pull people in. Pushing Tin. Yeah. What does that mean? Oh, it's like slang for airplanes. You lost me. Right. Anyway, Pushing Tin.

[00:08:16] And years later, it'll be a movie that you confuse with like five other movies. It sounds like it would be like a golf movie or something. And then you're like, oh, take off. That's what I thought. It sounded like a golf movie.

[00:08:25] I think it mostly only exists because of Jolie and Billy Bob getting married. That's how they got together. And obviously Billy Bob knows Cate Blanchett when she's now the star. She's essentially playing his mother in this movie. Yes. Which is interesting.

[00:08:38] I just think that I think Pushing Tin as a title would have completely evaporated from the collective consciousness. If not for three years of like E! News saying, the couple of course met on the set of Pushing Tin.

[00:08:48] So then she's in the town to Miss Ripley, which she's extremely good in. But everyone's good in that movie. And she's probably got the smallest of the main roles. But she is good and she's very glamorous.

[00:09:00] But she is the one you talk about the least when you talk about it. She is. Because everyone is so good. Jude Law, Matt Damon, Gwyneth Paltrow, Philip Seymour Hoffman. And they're like, oh yeah, Cate Blanchett's good in that. But it's a fifth. She's maybe beating Redhorn.

[00:09:11] But again, weirdly when I think of Town to Miss Ripley, I'm like, that's the first one. That must have been her very first movie. That must have been introducing Cate Blanchett. Exactly. And it was several movies in. It was a few movies in.

[00:09:23] When I watched it for the first time maybe 10 years ago, I was like, Cate Blanchett's in this? This is a weirdly small part for her at this point in time. And then you realize this is her third American movie. It's just so distortive that Elizabeth was so big.

[00:09:38] And that she was the queen in a movie that had eight hugely established actors in her supporting cast. But who are all hot, exciting actors. Yeah. No one in that movie, obviously Gwyneth Paltrow already has an Oscar. Yeah. Damon has a screenwriting Oscar.

[00:09:53] But everyone in that movie is still young and proving themselves. I mean, that movie rules. Then she's in The Man Who Cried, The Forgotten Sally Potter, Totoro, Depp, Ritchie vehicle, which I have seen. Cool. It's not good. Okay. This year, that's the same year as The Gift.

[00:10:10] Which The Gift I would say is just one of those movies that becomes a footnote, not a huge hit, but it's not hated. No. But it's kind of just like, oh yeah, remember that movie with Katie Holmes nudity?

[00:10:22] I think truly the two lasting legacies of this movie are Katie Holmes nudity and this is the last thing he makes before he makes Spider-Man. And then Sam Raimi still pre-blockbusters. Right. She's in Bandits, which she's good in and gets some award attention.

[00:10:37] This was a thing we fought over. But yeah, she got every precursor. She got a SAG and a Golden Globe nomination for Bandits. But she's phenomenal in that. She's good in that. The movie is kind of all over the place. I kind of like this.

[00:10:49] But it's sort of likable, right? And Billy Bob's great in that too. She was in Charlotte Grey, which is a French resistance World War II movie directed by Gillian Armstrong.

[00:10:58] This is a classic Cate Blanchett pre-Oscar project where you're like, that sounds like something everyone's going to go for and no one goes for. Nothing. She's in The Shipping News where she plays the crazy lady who leaves him. I remember her being fun in that.

[00:11:13] She's like a spark plug in it. It's kind of a horribly written role. Right. Because she's like, I'm crazy! I'm going to cheat on you! Goodbye! You know, it's sort of like, but she is fun. And that movie is so dour otherwise. Turk card. Yeah.

[00:11:27] Great finger work, David. Thank you. I was doing a lot of finger work. Yeah. Good book. Have you ever read The Shipping News? No, I was about to ask. I have not read it, but it sounds like a movie that I knew was made from a book. Yes.

[00:11:41] I remember from the time when you were debating, I'm not going to see the movie yet, but I'm going to read the book first. Which has not happened now. It's an absolute, you see the poster, you see the cast and you go, that's a book. That's a book.

[00:11:51] I know that's a book. I smell book all over this one. I don't even need to walk closer to see based on the book, based on the acclaimed novel. The book is also dour. It's about a dour dude. He's not a happy man. No.

[00:12:03] And he lives in Nova Scotia and he writes for a newspaper that just tells you when boats are coming in. But in the book you're like, I like this mood. When Spacey's like, people love it when I'm depressed and angry about my status in life.

[00:12:12] But Spacey is absolutely mind-bogglingly miscast. He's one of the most insane, like we read that book, Spacey's like the 80th person you think of, even though he's really famous, he just won an Oscar or whatever. Then she reunites with the gifts Giovanni Rubis, Heaven. Okay.

[00:12:27] Which was the Krzysztof Kieślowski script that he never made before he died. I always get Heaven and Enigma confused, but Enigma was Winslet. Enigma is Winslet. That's the British code breakers in the 40s movie that is like totally watchable. But is Rubis in that as well?

[00:12:43] Why do I always get Enigma and Heaven confused? I mean, they came out at the same time. Yeah. He's not in it. It's one of your classic, do Gray Scott, Saffron Burrows, Jeremy Northam vehicles. Okay. That was a movie I saw with my mom, Enigma.

[00:12:57] We were like, that was great. They said they broke the codes. So Enigma's more watchable than Heaven, but they both have that vibe of like... Heaven's weird. Is Heaven at all like Enigma? Maybe in costuming, but like... But does he play the Nazi? Period time era?

[00:13:14] Well, Heaven I think is, you know, it was this whole thing where Kieślowski posts three colors. He died of, I want to say cancer. Like he died too young. He never got to make the fourth color, which everyone was waiting for. No, he had done his colors.

[00:13:30] He never got to make four. He never got to blend the colors. Right. He'd done his colors, red, white, and blue. I'm just saying it might have been like a Kill Bill Volume 3 thing where for 20 years people went like, any chance you go back for a fourth color?

[00:13:42] I've been dabbling with green, but I don't know if I'm going to do it. Post colors, he had a new trilogy he'd written called Heaven, Hell, Purgatory. And he died before any of them were made. Okay. And they're set, I think in kind of...

[00:13:55] Well, Heaven is set, I think, in Italy, in like fascist... Tickford directs Heaven? And Tom Tickford directed it. And then I believe they did make Hell. Danis Tanovich, remember him? No. The guy who made that No Man's Land movie? Okay. And then Purgatory was never made.

[00:14:14] Does Giovanni give a restrained performance as a Nazi? He's an Italian fascist, I believe. I'm not sure. Like he's famously restrained. Let's put a pin in Rabisi and how you can and cannot use Rabisi in a movie. That's a conversation we're going to have at length.

[00:14:29] So at this point, Cate Blanchett, she's obviously... The Lord of the Rings movies are doing great. But nothing's really working, right? 2003, brutal. Veronica Garren and The Missing. Two Blanchett movies that the Oscars ignore, people ignore, no one remembers. But they were both presented as award season.

[00:14:51] And then it was really like, fuck, Blanchett's in trouble. And I would say her being in Lord of the Rings already, the way I think of her in Lord of the Rings is like more like an actress almost at the end of her career. Yes. Like, it's not...

[00:15:04] Oh yeah, sure, she was already so established. Like she's with the established British actors in that film. The movie is sort of using her prestige on loan to help itself more than the movie is helping her. In that sense. Like outside of visibility. She's so well cast.

[00:15:21] She is, she's great in them. But it's like it's already like jumped ahead 20... It's already assumed a level of prestige that you can't have established already this early on.

[00:15:29] It's almost like she's doing like an elder statesman Helen Mirren thing where it's like you're lending credibility to this film by you, Cate Blanchett, doing this. It's really weird when she turns into a ghoul. That part rules.

[00:15:40] That part rules, but it's like weird to see her do that. It's so good. Freak me out when I'm... It is funny to be like Lord of the Rings, the first Lord of the Rings comes out three years after Elizabeth. Right, and I'm like, she's Ian McKellen.

[00:15:52] One year after The Gift. That level of status. No, she's just at the start of her long road. The thing with the Garen missing combo is that it's also like, you know, Garen, she's doing an Irish accent. She's playing a real person. The missing is the other version.

[00:16:05] It's like D glam period Western. Tommy, Ron Howard post Oscar. Yeah, so she's like, she's coming at it from both angles and both angles people are like, no thank you. And then of course in 2004, she's so good in the Life Aquatic. Maybe my favorite performance in that movie.

[00:16:19] She's so funny. The scene where he makes her cry is so good. And then obviously the Aviator is a good performance. It was almost annoying that she won the Oscar because it's just like, you know, you played Catherine Hepburn, you did the voice. She is good.

[00:16:34] She is good, but it is funny. I remember going... It's a weird Oscar. I don't like, also, I never love when the Oscar goes to an impression. Me neither. I mean, it's, yeah. I never love a, yeah. Like her Bob Dylan performance... Is not an impression.

[00:16:48] Is not an impression and is much more interesting and probably would have won. It's only three years later, but you know, like, but at that point she just won. It was too recent for her to win a second.

[00:16:57] I remember seeing the Aviator with my mom, I guess maybe opening weekend and her first scene on the golf course happens and the audience at the end of the scene breaks into applause. And I turned around and I was like, I guess she's winning the Oscar.

[00:17:08] Like it was one of those things where people were like... Golly! You know, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, fucking Tony New York audience opening weekend, Aviator limited release, whatever. But like people were just fucking like, okay, you pulled it off.

[00:17:20] Like it really was too risky to do. I actually want to see who she beat now. 2004? Yeah. It would have been... You never saw the Aviator? Never saw the Aviator. It's actually a great movie. Can I see if I can name the four? Yeah.

[00:17:33] Sofia Canedo for Hotel Rwanda. Yeah. A good performer. Virginia Madsen for Sideways. Yes. Who maybe should have won. I guess so. It's a good performance and she'd won like all the critics awards. Right.

[00:17:45] But it always felt like she was never going to win the Oscar because she was Virginia Madsen. Yes. There was just that ultimate limit where they were like, nomination. You know what I mean? Like... Okay, so wait. You've been in too many Candyman movies. Is this a supporting?

[00:17:59] Supporting actress. You could be Virginia Madsen and win the supporting. No, I mean, I'm just saying the Oscars I feel like had that snobbiness with the like, you're not a good actress in anything else. Even though she can be good. I know.

[00:18:12] I think they were like, you have to give two good performances in a row before we give you an Oscar. You're not going to get this one out of nowhere. And also they were right. She probably never gave a good performance again.

[00:18:21] You know, she's very good in her smell. Alex's movie when she's very well cast. Yeah. I just remember seeing that and she comes on as Elizabeth Moss' mother and I was like, that makes sense. Yeah, you're right. You're right.

[00:18:33] But yes, no, she hasn't been used that well since Sideways. Okay, wait. So you've named Arcanado, Blanchett. So one of them is a young actor who has vaulted into total prestige. Oh, it's Natalie Portman Closer. Yes, who won the Golden Globe and was a threat.

[00:18:50] Right, this was kind of a split field in a weird way. And then the fifth person is not a Best Picture nominee, are they?

[00:18:57] No, the fifth person is a very good actress who had been on a great run getting her first Oscar nomination for a fairly bland performance in a biopic. In a biopic? As a wife. Huh. Yeah, I mean there's a reason you don't remember this.

[00:19:13] It's not Laura Linney and Kinsey. It is Laura Linney and Kinsey. It's not her first nomination. You can count on me. Right, obviously. What am I talking about? David, you fool! Her second nomination. She's good now. She's totally good because she's Laura Linney.

[00:19:26] It's just surprising that I think that movie— You know what I'm confusing it with? It was Patricia Clarkson's first nomination for Pieces of April where you were like, she's good in this but she's been better in other things.

[00:19:34] That's why I got confused because it felt like you were describing Patricia Clarkson. I knew that was two thousand percent. Of course Linney did have—has Linney not gotten a nomination since? Savages. She's good in that. She's good in that. Yeah.

[00:19:44] I just thought Kinsey was very good and it seemed like a major Oscar player and then it only got the Linney nom and you're like, Neeson weirdly snubbed, screenplay snubbed. Um, yeah, Neeson snubbed was weird.

[00:19:56] William Sadler has one of the great one-scene performances in history in that movie. I guess so. I don't remember that movie very well. The world's biggest sex freak. Yeah, I guess I remember that. I mean, Kinsey.

[00:20:08] Anyway, you know, once she wins the Oscar, the funny thing is she actually kind of muddles along for a few years after that because like she's in Babel but who remembers that? But it was such a big deal at the time.

[00:20:18] She's in The Good German which is probably the worst even Soderbergh movie. It's in The Conversation. No Time to Scandal, I think she's phenomenal. No Time to Scandal, she's really good in that. And that one, that's one of the ones that lingers the most.

[00:20:32] That's when it's suddenly like everyone is now just like she is Meryl Streep type or whatever. But it's so odd that it's that, now we're in that. I know.

[00:20:41] Because we were already, we started at that and now we, it took all this time to get back to that. Yes. Because it was the initial, how she began.

[00:20:47] Like it does make you realize how much Winslet was smart to be like let me not have the whole movie rest on my shoulders for a couple years. Let me wait until. Let me take some supporting roles.

[00:21:00] Right, whereas all those things, the Blanchett movies that don't exist are all like Blanchett front and center, her face. Or it's something like The Shipping News where it's like it's a supporting part but this is the part that's supposed to win her the Oscar.

[00:21:12] Like I remember so much of the buzz of that movie being like she's got the wild part. Right, right. Well I think Blanchett was trying, she was taking parts that she wanted to try so many different things.

[00:21:23] And that made her not think, Caitlin Winslet does not do that. Like I'm not saying she's not different in different films.

[00:21:32] But I don't think she, it feels to be like a different kind of mania with Blanchett being like now I'm going to show him funny, now I'm going to show him the crazy one. In a very condensed timeline.

[00:21:42] This is, I mean just a fascinating thing for her to do so quickly, this movie. The Gift? Yeah. I mean I think it was one of those things where this is her first leading role in an American film. Yeah.

[00:21:53] And I know this is going to sound silly but like I think the Billy Bob Thornton script part of it is still a major hook. Huge. To me there's no mystery why anyone is in this film.

[00:22:05] This film to me encapsulates exactly what actors thought the future of cinema was going to be. Sure. What they thought movie making was. And the fact that it's right before Spider-Man means everyone predicted the future wrong. Yeah.

[00:22:20] But when you watch the interviews of the actors talking about this film, the way they're so solemn. Keanu Reeves talking about he got like therapists coaching him in trauma.

[00:22:30] Everyone discusses it as though it is a much more serious work than it is because and it's right at, it really is about everything's about to change with Sam Raimi. And so every one of them read this script and thought it was an incredible script.

[00:22:47] They thought it was saying something very important. They thought it was about trauma. It was about abuse. It was showing a part of America that you don't see. Like I've never been less confused why every actor in this film is in a film.

[00:22:59] It's funny because the cast is so stacked and you realize there must have been this feeling around the movie where it's like this is like A Few Good Men. Like it's better to have a small part in the gift. Yes. Than be a lead in something else.

[00:23:11] The high tide is going to raise all ships. Multiple different people, different career points all using this movie to be like this is the exact kind of movie you want to be a part of. Katie Holmes wants to transcend being teen star.

[00:23:22] Hilary Swank is trying to like keep the momentum going off of her Oscar win. This is Keanu right after The Matrix. He wants to show that he can be a bad guy. Greg Kinnear similarly like I want to be like a little heavier.

[00:23:35] I feel like almost everyone in this movie is like can I do something? I have a thing to prove. I'm like inside of my box. And there's a real innocence to it. And there's an innocence with just what they thought movies were.

[00:23:49] Like I just it is really I'm telling you when I watch people talk about it, it just feels so pure how they were like we're taking this very seriously. We very much believe in filmmaking.

[00:23:59] We very much believe in the message of this and just knowing that no one that they don't know what's coming. No one involved in this. It adds like a poignancy to it that I think this film would not have had if things hadn't changed.

[00:24:13] Did you introduce the podcast? No, I haven't. Oh, you haven't. We just got so deep in the conversation. I just like the bland shit. I love to think about that. I do too. You dove right in. I'm sorry. No, it's okay. I can't help myself.

[00:24:25] I mean we can wait till the end of the show. I mean we don't. No, look, I want to say this is a podcast called Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin. And I'm David. Ben's disappointed.

[00:24:33] Ben's looking at me with disappointment that I didn't hold off on introducing until the end. No, but you've already done that before. You can't do that. That's my point. Thank you, Starly. This is also a No Biz podcast. I'm sorry. What was I thinking? Sorry.

[00:24:46] You can't just throw that in. There was a point when you did it before there was a reason for it. It was funny. It was different. Yeah, it was thematic. It fit in with the episode. You can't just like suddenly just willy-nilly be doing that.

[00:24:56] You can't do it. You can't do it. And Ben, also, I'm a contrarian. So you said you could wait to introduce it till the end. I was like fuck you. I'm introducing it right now.

[00:25:03] I wouldn't have let it happen, though, because I just think it can't be repeated unless it has a reason. Fair enough. All right. I'm glad we hashed it out on Mike. Everything happens for a reason. Look, it's a podcast about filmographies and hashing out arguments on Mike. Right.

[00:25:17] Directors who have massive success early on in their careers. Are we fighting now? No, I think we're good, right? Okay, yeah. This is Blank Check with Griffin and David. It is. I'm David. It's a podcast about filmographies. It is.

[00:25:29] Directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. And sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce, baby. Yes. This is a miniseries on the films of Sam Raimi.

[00:25:40] It's called Podcast Me To Hell. Today we are talking about his 2000 supernatural prestige thriller drama, The Gift. Southern gothic supernatural thriller. So many weird things going on with this movie. I think our guest, Starlee Kine. Hi. The great Starlee Kine returning to the show.

[00:25:59] I think this is kind of my genre on this show. I was going to say. Once we picked Raimi, we were like, oh, we should ask Starlee to do that again. Yeah. It just felt like in both of these cases, as with What Lies Beneath, I was like,

[00:26:10] Starlee would be a good person to have on for like a 2000 adult sexual supernatural prestige thriller made by a serious director. Yeah. I mean, I really enjoy watching these kind of movies. I told you that when I first came on. These movies are the same year.

[00:26:27] They are the same. I mean, there's a. It's the exact same vibe going on. Because I. Right. I mean, that makes sense. And what I. Another thing I find interesting about that is that the actors are still taking these movies seriously.

[00:26:41] But neither of those movies were big hits with the critics or even. Sure. Like with the box office. So it's like. No, What Lies Beneath was a huge hit at the box office. That's what's interesting. But the critics panned that. Correct. And they didn't.

[00:26:55] They were mixed to me. Both. What Lies Beneath and this one. Yeah. In the reviews, they say much like Kate Bunchett. You don't know where she's falling. Like she's arrived at the biggest star in the world before she even become a star.

[00:27:07] I'm always surprised that this year the stuff that we are like, oh, I've seen that a million times had already been done a million times. Yes.

[00:27:14] Both of you that with Lies Beneath and The Gift are the critics are like, it's just a bunch of scares that we've seen. Yeah. It's this shit again. And then. But some of the actors are like, this is so new.

[00:27:23] And the filmmakers, like they're behind what has been out in the world. I think Southern Gothic movies had had a bit of a run because post Sling Blade. Sure. You got Eve's Bayou. You got Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil.

[00:27:40] You know, you have a few kind of prestige murderous Southern. Well, I don't know. I'm fanning myself. You know, like a lot of that. And maybe by the time The Gift is coming out, people are kind of like, okay, we get it. Everyone's doing an accent. Sure.

[00:27:54] I do. The scary stuff is what the critics are like. What? We're not we're not scared of this. There's like. Right. There's like six months, right? Where between what what lies beneath coming out in like the middle of July and being this huge fucking hit.

[00:28:08] The critics are like, OK, jerk off motion. Right. And then this comes out like qualifying run December for Oscars and then really comes out in January. And what lies beneath is like a fucking whatever.

[00:28:20] Ninety million dollar movie with the biggest movie star in the world and a huge leading actress, the biggest director and whatever. And it's a big fucking hit. No one takes it seriously. It's not even whispered about for Oscars or anything.

[00:28:31] And then this is released six months later as like Paramount doesn't even know what to do with this. It's released by Paramount classics, which is their awards.

[00:28:40] You're like this doesn't feel like a Paramount classics movie, but Paramount's like this is a little too small for us to know what to do with. It's stacked with movie stars. They were like, this is an Oscar play.

[00:28:50] The Oscars are like this might be a little too genre stacked with names. I would say Keanu's the only movie star in it. Uh huh. It's like it's like with, you know, right. Wank has just won an Oscar, but obviously it's still pretty new. Blanchett, right?

[00:29:04] She's still pretty new. Yeah. Rube C. Where's. Well, I guess we'll just. And Katie Holmes, obviously, it's that thing of like, hey, the kid from TV and like crappy teen movies is trying to be in a grown up movie. God, it was Billy Bob.

[00:29:19] Billy Bob's also a name. Billy Bob is a name, although weirdly is not on any of the advertising like you'd think they might say like from the writer of Sling Blade or whatever.

[00:29:28] But it's the advertising is very much just Cate Blanchett gone, you know, like big, big Cate Blanchett face names. Yeah. And then a lot of like the only witness to the crime wasn't even there. You know, a lot of crimey murder mystery.

[00:29:41] There's an A24 version of this movie now, right? That gets like bought at Sundance and A24 cuts together a trailer that makes it look scarier than it is. And they release it wide and they somehow trick people into making like 20 million dollars. But but it's artsy than this.

[00:29:55] Whereas this movie is like made by a studio who insists on releasing it through their specialty arm. But the film is like surprisingly kind of I don't say broad in a negative way, but it's not like like he's trying to make an accessible movie.

[00:30:09] But I think that actors and to some extent Sam Raimi think this is an A24 movie. I think that's an odd in between zone. But it's because when you hear Sam Raimi talk about the punishing of the audience and this, he comes back to talking about that again.

[00:30:26] Like the Bruce Campbell quote, I want to punish the audience. Which I feel like is Sam Raimi's driving force as a filmmaker. He talks about it when he interviews about this. The darkness of this movie is why he was worried that the studio was going to.

[00:30:42] He was I think he was really drawn to how dark the Giovanni Ribisi darkness and not just not the scary stuff, but the actual like like the content. And I think and I think that in his mind is A24.

[00:30:54] JJ pulled up our researcher in the dossier, this interview with him where he says when he read the script for the first time. Do you want to read the quote directly? Yeah, but let's let's let's sure. Let's back up and start with some context.

[00:31:06] This is an early Thornton script. Tom Emerson, the co-writer, is his buddy. Right. They wrote one false move together after Billy Wilder tells him at a party you should write script. Yeah, he's like a cater waiter or whatever. Yes. And he's like Billy Wilder.

[00:31:17] I love your work. And he's like, you should write your own movie. Yeah. So he he and Emerson write like a handful of scripts. Billy Bob that or? He told Billy Bob.

[00:31:25] Billy Bob. They write a handful of scripts together and then one false move is obviously the thing that gets them off the ground. But there were a couple of scripts that they sold that never got made before that. Yeah. A family thing which eventually became an MGM movie.

[00:31:36] I don't know it. It's I looked this up last night. It's two big actors. Pretty cool. It's Robert Duvall and James Earl Jones. Thank you. Love that. And then Sling Blade's the third one.

[00:31:46] But Gift was in that pile of like the other scripts they had written around this time that just only got bought up once they were hot. Post Sling Blade. The plan is for Thornton to direct this movie, which seems very logical, especially since it's about his mother.

[00:32:00] It's a very personal project for him. Jodie Foster is going to play the leading role. Slam dunk. Slam dunk. I'm just like and I like this movie. OK, but like, you know, but like I'm like, I'll see that. Yeah.

[00:32:13] And no offense to Ramy, but I kind of want Thornton to direct. I do, too. I mean, it is.

[00:32:17] I will say that like all the quotes of like you don't understand how much this is about my mother and Billy Bob Thornton saying that when he worked with Blanchett again on because they were in Pushington. This movie gets made and then they work together on Bandits.

[00:32:30] Yeah. Right. And he's like, you're right. And when they're making Bandits, she has played his. And he's like, this is weird. You're my mom now. Right, right, right. And you do feel like there's some personal element missing from this movie that Thornton probably would have brought.

[00:32:44] I think so. I mean, it's sort of what makes Slingblade work. Right. I mean, I haven't seen Slingblade in a billion years, but like that's sort of. Some call it a Slingblade. Yeah. Yeah. French fried potatoes.

[00:32:55] But I mean, some, you know, that's sort of like, you know, he gets this world. He gets it right. That was what people was appealing about Slingblade part. Right. Like this feels realistic. I don't know. And I think it was the French fried potatoes. Yeah.

[00:33:07] I think I might have been able to. Something that bothered me about this film was that her being a psychic did not ever matter. Like every time she keeps seeing what's going to happen and then never stops it from happening. And that's her. She isn't objectively.

[00:33:23] She's a bad crime fighting psychic. She's an okay psychic. No, she's a great. I would say arguably a great psychic. Bad crime psychic. So maybe if Billy Bob was channeling his mom more, it would have leaned more just on her.

[00:33:36] He would have just cracked the nut of the psychic because she just, I know that she feels the guilt about not telling her husband not to go to the mill or whatever during the explosion, but then she never remedies that every time she predicts something she does not.

[00:33:50] And it's not a message. It doesn't seem to be saying you can't stop things from playing out. It just seems to be that she's not doing the thing she's supposed to do. She did intervene though.

[00:33:58] She did in the movie say that she tried to stop him that morning because she had a dream. So I do think that she tries, but it's like at least my take was the world is not accepting of what she has to say.

[00:34:10] When it comes to even her own her being in danger, she sees stuff that's going to happen and doesn't correct her own, alter the course for it not to happen, which you would think would be the advantage of having psychic powers. It is just weird.

[00:34:23] I think this movie is okay. I think Blanchett's performance is solid, but something about her character just doesn't totally work. It doesn't totally make sense. And when you read the quotes from Billy Bob Thornton talking about his own childhood experience

[00:34:37] and what he's drawing from, you're like there's a specificity there that is interesting to build a fictionalized movie around that type of person in this type of setting, that dynamic that this movie somehow never captures. Yeah, I agree with everything you're saying.

[00:34:52] This movie feels too small in a certain way. It's one of those sort of murder mystery problems where you're like, I kind of know where this is going because it's got seven characters.

[00:35:01] You've got your six faces on the poster and I immediately go like, well he's the Red Herring. Yeah, Keanu's obviously the Red Herring and then we're pretty much Katie Holmes is the murder victim and Cate Blanchett's the psychic.

[00:35:11] You're like Rabies is too obvious so he has to be serving some other function. Spoiler alert, it's a great movie. I do think it's interesting to have the Red Herring be revealed that there's a whole other hour that follows. Yeah, the Red Herring stuff happens very fast.

[00:35:26] Keanu getting convicted an hour in and then another whole hour passing. There's something normally that is reserved for the last ten minutes so there's something structurally interesting about that to me even if it kind of plays out in a predictable way.

[00:35:40] Look, I think the movie probably works better if the Buddy Cole stuff is... I don't know. What you're talking about Starly, the torturing the audience thing. All the Ramy quotes, there's this one I'm sorry I'm jumping ahead to but he said when

[00:35:55] he read the script he put it down halfway through. He got about halfway through it and he said this is too intense and depressing for me and then he's like, why am I running from this?

[00:36:04] Now I guess obviously the joke is like the guy who made The Evil Dead thought this was too but it's like but obviously when he made his horror films he couched it in fantasy and silliness and this is a movie about abuse. That's what he's referring to, right?

[00:36:20] He's mostly talking I think about the child abuse element of the backstory. Because it seems like when this movie came out people were like oh Sam Raimi was drawn to this movie because it's a haunted house movie.

[00:36:31] He's getting back to his roots and this is what he wants to do. He's combining the two halves. It's prestige Sam Raimi with the earlier genre Sam Raimi and he's working with top tier actors and whatever.

[00:36:41] Yeah but when he talks about it it sounds like he's like yeah there's a haunted house sure I have to do that but all of his heart is in the prestige and the drama of it. I think all the haunted house stuff works great.

[00:36:54] But he seems like it's what he cared about. He is saying that's not why I did it. I want to be clear here. That was not the pull for me. In The Gift he wanted to present the supernatural as something that really existed, that was real.

[00:37:07] This is what he's saying versus The Evil Dead where he's like I wanted the actors to draw the audience in. All my technique, I threw out the window, all my camera stuff.

[00:37:15] I wanted to create a real world and it is one of those things that we've been talking about in this middle of Raimi's career where he keeps saying this and I think it's successful in a simple plan.

[00:37:24] And I think it's sort of semi to unsuccessful for this and the baseball movie. Agreed. But he seems so intent on being like I'm not the Sam Raimi you think I am.

[00:37:36] And then with Spider-Man he's like what if I tried being the Sam Raimi you think I am again? It's like oh this is triumphant. It is so odd because in the arc of his career versus all these careers we see now where

[00:37:47] someone makes a really good personal small movie and they get hired to make a humongous fucking Marvel movie and then it's like I guess this is means to an end that now they

[00:37:56] have the cash to make whatever they want but they maybe get stuck in the semi anonymous blockbuster realm where 20 percent of their voice is coming through on any movie. And instead it feels like Raimi was kind of stuck in his own making these like programmed

[00:38:10] studio dramas with movie stars. I guess. Right. With a star. With big stars and then it's like his personality was a little lost in it and then he gets to make Spider-Man and you're like this is the purest reflection of this man's sensibility.

[00:38:24] Like this is so personal and handmade. That's why I think it but I think when you read about Sam Raimi how he makes decisions he always has a reason for why he took a movie. Yes.

[00:38:37] And I think Sam Raimi is a filmmaker who struggles with who he actually is. He is. Spider-Man is what he should be doing and it is him fully realized. And these movies that lead up to it are him being like I wish I was this other kind of

[00:38:53] filmmaker because he also has that quote about like he was making movies that he thought he was supposed to make not only to sell but like using the magic of filmmaking. Yes. Right. And he's like why don't I just then make movies that I want to watch.

[00:39:08] And that's not Spider-Man. That's this movie. I know. And he's applying it to this. So he wants to be Billy Bob I think. And even like in the earliest pieces of research we have from our early episodes in this series

[00:39:20] they talk about like Tappert and Campbell and everybody that like Sam wasn't a guy who like loved horror movies. It was like a strategic decision of like this is what can sell. This is a good way to show off my skills as director or whatever.

[00:39:33] But like when we were kids and made short films he wanted to make like dramas. Yeah. And like political thrillers or whatever. And so it is this odd thing where you're like this guy's so fucking good at what he does. And then he excels at it. Right. Yeah.

[00:39:47] And then he sort of treats it like yeah I'm like having fun. These are like fun larks. These are kind of movies I liked when I was a child but obviously I'm an adult now I'd like to make adult movies.

[00:39:53] The quotes for this movie are all like I've grown up I'm married I have kids. These are the movies I want to watch. I want to make these kinds of movies. Yeah. And then he gets that little spark of like fuck what if I could direct Spider-Man when

[00:40:05] it feels like he has put all that shit in a box and put it in a closet. And then he has this sort of like actually put me and put my name in the hat.

[00:40:11] Put my name in the hat and then he makes it and every like I mean just jumping ahead but all those fucking Spider-Man interviews I was watching every cast member is like when you talk to him about this movie his eyes are like glowing.

[00:40:22] Like he is the most excited I've ever seen any director be. It's why he gets that job because he's so willing. But that's what's so interesting that his journey to feel peace about that because that's he's not at peace in these middle movies. No.

[00:40:36] He's just like thinking that this is what he's not only it's not just what he's supposed to be doing. It's not just that he thinks he was making a student movie.

[00:40:41] It's what he's telling himself this is what he wants to be doing and this is what he wants to be watching. And there's a darkness Sam Raimi gravitates to from the from evil because Evil Dead not only is it very scary it is dark like. Yeah.

[00:40:56] He's got dark stuff inside him and I think he's very drawn to that. I think it's why the gift in the disturbing parts of the gift it's really disturbing and I think that's what he's like kind of the most excited about. He's the worst at it.

[00:41:10] I know he's not good at it but that's but that's the piece but he feels cartoony all of it and then whenever he does the haunted house stuff you're like this has some fucking energy to it.

[00:41:19] But he's like the filmmaker who wants to be the novelist or something like he wants to be he for some reason convinced himself that he had to be this other kind of filmmaker and again he also predicts it wrong. No one knows if Spider-Man is about to change.

[00:41:32] But this should be in the 90s that makes sense that he feels that way. He's like Soderbergh you know Sundance like all these like yes I should be like them. I can see that.

[00:41:41] And also who are the biggest movie stars in the 90s right it's like it's Tom Cruise and Harrison Ford and their big movies are like this. I'm not saying this specifically but they're like taking good scripts with directors off

[00:41:52] a shelf stacking a supporting cast and they're making like adult dramas that maybe have a slight genre element to them. Well like what if there was a firm? What if there was a firm? You know you buy a hit novel whatever the fuck it is like.

[00:42:04] What if there was a Jerry Maguire? The Will Smith takeover has just started happening at the end of the 90s. Where it's like I am the star. Right. Everything is about my persona as a star that's different. Right. The thing is though this is a small budget movie.

[00:42:18] Yes. You know for the this is a this cost half as much as a simple plan which is a fairly muted small movie. Right and it cost a fifth or a sixth as much as for Love of the Game. Correct. Love of the Game cost 50 million dollars.

[00:42:30] This cost nine. Yeah. It was obviously distributed by Paramount Classics because of in Ramey's opinion that you know the extreme content you know child molestation, patricide. This idea that they're treating it like we're making hereditary this thing is going to be so painful for you to watch.

[00:42:46] But then in an A24 way that we're making we're making prestige trauma. But like something like hereditary or Midsommar the stuff that Astrid's going to make. No one's ever made a movie about trauma though. I don't know what you guys are talking about. The trauma.

[00:42:58] No one no one's done that yet. I mean people are thinking about it but no one's made a movie about trauma. David I'm going to embarrass you right now. They've been doing it you have noticed because secretly this movie is about trauma. Wait what?

[00:43:09] What are you talking about? Secretly it's a movie about trauma. Okay. No but those the Astrid movies I feel like part of what's so striking about them is there's just like such a psychological specificity to them. Yeah they're truly difficult to watch. Right. They're so good.

[00:43:24] And the conversations not even like the subject matter of the extreme things that have happened but the way people interact with each other and then this every time there's like a horrible thing it sort of feels like an after school special. Sure. In its pitch. Yeah.

[00:43:37] It's I mean there are many parts of this movie that are like different after school specials sewn together. It looks weird. Yeah. Like it just the way he's framing it and shooting it it looks not great. Oddly brightly lit. Yeah. It is. It's got that right. Yeah.

[00:43:54] And why is that? I guess it's just the time. I don't know. I kept on trying to figure it out but it's oddly not very atmospheric looking. Yeah. Other than the nightmare sequences. Yeah. Some of the conversations with characters are so fucking weird.

[00:44:11] Like I don't even know why it's just like it's like weird watching them talk to each other. There's a lot that's a time because there's also a time of it's so puritanical too. Yes.

[00:44:21] It's so Kate Blanchett not being allowed to have sex or even like get together in any way with a guy years after her husband's died which is like it's that I feel like is also the virgin horror movie trope. Yes.

[00:44:35] Being applied to this woman in this small town. This like grown woman. This grieving single mother of three. It's so strange. Yeah. And like everybody it's it's a movie that's really like everyone must suffer.

[00:44:47] I mean we I just broken record about this but it just has to be invoked yet again. I do think so much of it is about him comparing himself to where the Coens are at any given point in time. I had that thought too. Yeah.

[00:45:00] I mean it's hard not to. It's hard not to and it's just like they both started out in similar sort of like whack-a-doo expressive camera what have you zones and the Coens have now gone through like several

[00:45:09] rotations of different like stretching themselves to different corners and growth and whatever and I do think he's just in this almost like I can't just be Sam Raimi forever. Right. Why didn't he learn more from them?

[00:45:20] I do think it's comparing but why do they start to diverge so extremely in these films these three Spider-Man films what they should actually be on these parallel tracks both making interesting films in his going towards these commercial films but also trying to

[00:45:38] hold on to something that he thinks is gritty and raw that it's it's it's like they didn't I think they didn't speak during that time. It's true. Was Giovanni Ribisi the Ben Foster of 2000? Yes, 100%.

[00:45:49] It's one of those things where it's like I don't think he's a bad actor necessarily. But you have to. But there's very specific constraints you need to put on this guy. You need to put constraints on him. Or you need to have the movie be bananas. Yes.

[00:46:01] In which case like let him go bananas. But this is the year after The Other Sister? The Other Sister. Oh God. Which of course is obviously obviously no one came out of that one looking good. No. You know it's not. I forgot about that.

[00:46:14] That's a trailer I remember just. You fucking have ruined a bunch of people's days. That haunted me as a child. Oh my God. This is illegal. You cannot do this. Oh my God.

[00:46:21] But it was that like obviously he's you know in those early that thing you do Suburbia Lost Highway. It's like oh this guy's got an interesting face. Absolutely. And then he's so he's so good in Saving Private Ryan.

[00:46:30] I was going to say this is where you're like and I think that's. And that's what you're for. It's Spielberg. You're going to work so hard and do whatever he wants. And that's where I think people start to go is this one of the most exciting actors of

[00:46:39] his generation? Is this the incredible young guy? Yeah. Just such a specific look that's so interesting. I love how he's so sick. He's on Friends. He always looks a little sick. He's so sick as an actor. And I love that he's on Friends.

[00:46:50] Friends actually I think is like the most interesting part of his entire career. It's a very interesting it's very interesting that Friends had a low key high school student marries his teacher plot just nested inside of like the usual antics. But this is the thing with him.

[00:47:06] He's very funny. Like Rabisi. He is funny. Like almost any time you ask him to be funny. I was a big fan of him. Yeah. Funny. And then also if you give him something like Saving Private Ryan, you're like, wow, he's

[00:47:16] putting a lot into this guy that other people could underplay. Right. And then if you're like it's a big character, he's like, great. I have here's an entire bag of tricks I've been willing waiting to put in.

[00:47:28] This is the same year as Gone in 60 Seconds, which he's also kind of a lunatic and right? Yeah. But at least he's a lunatic. That's a loony movie. He's in a cage movie. Next. Like a Bruckheimer film.

[00:47:39] I feel like then it's kind of a little quiet from Rabisi for a bit. And then it's like, oh, he's in Lost in Translation, but it's like a small role. He's playing Spike Jones. Yes. Because 99 is Mod Squad, other sister and there's a third one.

[00:47:53] I mean, he's the narrator in The Virgin Suicides. That's about it really. 2000. That's cool though. Yeah. Very cool. 2000 is the gift Gone in 60 Seconds. And of course, he went entered the boiler room. Which he's good in boiler room. He is.

[00:48:09] Again, kind of a high intensity movie or whatever. But he's one of these guys where it's like if you cast him to play a normal guy, you're like, oh, he's doing something interesting here.

[00:48:18] And if you cast him to play a weird person, you're like scale it all the way back. Yeah. But I can't fault only him though because I fault more the people who open the box and unleash him. Absolutely. I agree. That being allowed. Yes. No.

[00:48:34] And enabled and encouraged. How many episodes of Friends do you think he's in? Seven. I looked this up last night. It's not seven. No, I'm close. You're close-ish. 20. 10. Wow. So it's a friend. Pretty good. Pretty good. Because he's a family member. He is. He's Phoebe's brother.

[00:48:51] I mean, that was the old Phoebe thing of like, you know, she's got a long lost blah who's going to show up. But Balaban plays her dad, I think. Really? Pretty sure. And your wife just went out. I know. Cool. Kind of need it.

[00:49:07] The other problem is I don't know what your Wi-Fi is called because it's one of those garbled letter. Can't you connect it to the phone? I can if I have to. And you could connect to my phone. No. I'll go reset it. Yeah, go reset it.

[00:49:23] But we're going to leave this all in because this is fun. Absolutely. I mean, I just have to tell you, I have to shout out that he played the sneakiest of all Peet's in Sneaky Pete. He did. I got it for like five seasons.

[00:49:34] One of those Amazon shows where they were just like, I don't know, you want to do more? Fine. How do we feel about the nickname Giri? Good? Love it. Good? Like that's what you if you saw him at a bar, you'd be like, Giri! Hey!

[00:49:46] I don't know if he'd love it. He's apparently in Avatars 2 and 3. And 4 and 5? Well, I think with 4 and 5 we don't know because they haven't filmed any of those, right? Yes. They filmed 2 and 3. Yeah. So like anyone who's in those, they've gone to New Zealand.

[00:50:00] That's a great example for me of like nothing part of like just shitty businessman and he makes it a little bit interesting. I think he is phenomenal in Avatar. Exactly. That's what I'm saying. Have you seen Avatar?

[00:50:10] Yes, but I have no memory other than remembering watching it and being like, this is better than I thought it was going to be. He's ostensibly the main bad guy, but he's a guy in an office. I mean, Lang is the main bad guy. Come on.

[00:50:20] What are you doing? Well, my favorite moment in Avatar, and I think we may have talked about it on this podcast, and I like a lot of moments in Avatar. Yeah, of course. Where he's like scrolling on their 3D map and it goes too far.

[00:50:29] He's like, come on, come on. It's one of those little like – you never see anyone do that when they're doing wireframe. They're like, ah, shit, I overshot it. Come on. That's the thing though.

[00:50:39] I mean it's like this movie, this performance, and once again, I don't blame him as much as I blame everyone else for allowing him to do it.

[00:50:45] I'm just like this is the worst acting class like exercise I've seen where like – I think I've said this before about certain performances. But like when I would be in acting class and someone would like go this big and then there would just sort of be the silence.

[00:50:58] Everyone's like tingling with embarrassment. Well, the other students are like is that – I guess it's impressive they went that far. Right. And then I just remember one time seeing a scene like that and my teacher, acting teacher, Elizabeth Camp, RIP, was wonderful.

[00:51:13] Her very gentle way of saying it was she'd always go, well, it's good that you know you can do that and that you can go that far. I don't think it's necessary. And that's like whenever I watch something like this, it's that tingly embarrassment.

[00:51:28] It's like Giovanni, I'm impressed that you can go that far. You don't need to do that. Don't you think they were telling him in this era though that they were saying this is how you win an Oscar?

[00:51:38] I think he gets a fucking Independent Spirit Award nomination for supporting actor for this. A truly embarrassing nomination. Most of the critics are like the movie is whatever, but Giovanni Rubisi continues to solidify himself as. That's the innocence of this year.

[00:51:51] Now if you did this in a movie today. Jail. I'm not sure you'd go to jail, but I do think – Definitely canceled. The Hague. I do think there would be an automatic kind of like this is super corny. This is not what we need.

[00:52:08] It would immediately get clipped and shipped onto Twitter and it would go viral and people would go, can you believe this is a scene from this movie? But in 1999, what I am Sam is coming up, right?

[00:52:18] Like this is people are still like, yeah, this is what people want. This is what the voters are looking for. That's acting. That's how turned around everyone was. That thinking, allowing Giovanni Rubisi to do this shows the inevitability of Trump. But it shows the inevitability of Spider-Man.

[00:52:40] It shows the inevitability of Marvel. We were at that point. We had gone – because even knowing that he was like in Virgin Suicide and all that, those – a lot of translations of Virgin Suicide were out there and people watching it.

[00:52:52] But somehow the last remnant of this kind of movie is the gift. But see, Starlee, even what you're saying about the Coppola movies being out there, there's a bifurcation happening, right?

[00:53:02] Where it's like if this is happening, this is indie, this is artisanal, this is small scale, this is specialty arm. Small batch. This is a small batch movie. It's a small batch movie and then it's the fucking huge stuff.

[00:53:13] Like there's already this thing of like what doesn't exist anymore? This movie. Yeah. What lies beneath getting made and released in the middle of the summer? Giovanni Ribisi is like giving this much performance in a film that is expected to perform commercially.

[00:53:28] Right, because they don't understand that this is – they're betting on the wrong horse. They don't understand what's about to happen. You're only allowed to go this big today if you play the Joker.

[00:53:37] This is the only – that's the only circumstance in which they allow you to go this big. Well, right. So it's like the character from the movies that are going to be – that are going to actually last and be everything are like it's in the wrong time.

[00:53:49] He's got to step over the line and then he'll be understated. Yeah, he'll be understated in Avatar. Here's what I want to say though and maybe you agree with me, maybe you don't. I think Cate Blanchett is good in this movie.

[00:54:01] I think J.K. Simmons, Chelsea Ross, Rosemary Harris, Gary Cole, those small – Yes. They all – I think everyone else is bad in this movie. I think everyone else is not good in this movie. Hilary Swank is bad. Hilary Swank is so bad in this movie. Yes.

[00:54:17] It's a similar way of like she's like I kind of get what this is, like a kind of a white trash girl and no one's talked to her or given her notes or stopped her.

[00:54:29] Like she's just doing the most caricatured version of it and it's super basic and it's super bad. It's also funny that like where's Hilary Swank from? Hilary Swank – isn't she Canadian? No, she's not. Oh my god, Nebraska.

[00:54:42] I just read – I was just looking at the BuzzFeed list of who's self-made and who was born rich. She grew up in a trailer. She grew up in absolutely tough circumstances although she – obviously she was in the next Karate Kid when she was a teenager.

[00:54:55] She's one of those kids who moves to California, starts acting. To support her family. To support her family. It's that kind of – That's the thing about that list that I also read where it keeps being like all these people are self-made.

[00:55:05] I'm like almost all the people you're talking about were worked to death by their families' children. Correct. They became the money whores.

[00:55:11] I mean that list I couldn't – I kind of wish a list like that would come out every day because I really – it was asking my friends to guess which – yeah. I just – look, she did not grow up in the south. No, Midwest.

[00:55:23] But you imagine that – it's not like Gwyneth Paltrow trying to play this part where you're like Gwyneth Paltrow has never met a woman like this in her life before. She's met Hilary Swank. You're like Hilary Swank should be able to – She should do this.

[00:55:35] It's a really bad performance. It's a bad performance. And also post-Boys Don't Cry, right? You just cannot believe that this is her right after Boys Don't Cry fucking up this badly. But again, people thought this was – they took this seriously. I know.

[00:55:48] I think there's no – I just think no one's telling them like, hey, too much mustard. Agreed. I think they also – I think Billy Bob cast a spell on Hollywood. The Sling Blade thing confused people. They all think they can say French fried potatoes. Yes.

[00:56:01] Because that's what all of them think they're doing here. You're right. He was their smartest friend because the way he acted where he was like, I'm not Hollywood. I can write circles around all of you. I'm the real deal. And they were – he's also seduced everybody.

[00:56:14] Like I just think that they could – they were blinded. They could not think straight in the face of him. A great example of just like, right, Sling Blade should be too big a performance. Yes. And the trick there is that he makes it feel naturalistic.

[00:56:26] And when Sam Raimi talks about the script, they're like, he has an ear for dialect. And I'm like, he doesn't in this film at least. Or maybe he needs to massage actors to understand his ear.

[00:56:35] Like it's like someone like Tarantino where the language is very specific and you need to be on the right tonal wavelength of –

[00:56:42] Or he does his own Billy Bob because even like in Civil Plan, I love watching Billy Bob but I'm not sure I think he's a real person. I don't sound like I think anyone else really talks like him but I do like what he's doing.

[00:56:54] That's the thing of him just being like plucked out of the ether. What were you going to say, David? No, I was going to move on to the other actors. I want to give Keanu credit because I think he's really fucking trying. But that's the thing.

[00:57:04] I think he is the best of the people we're talking about right now. He doesn't pull it off. He doesn't pull it off and it feels just a little too trite. It's also an impossible character though. Impossible. There's no way – It's not a great character.

[00:57:16] They're trying to make us – he can be sympathetic. Yeah. Like he's got a confederate flag on the front. That's also an era thing where – Because the character is written as a red herring where it's like he comes out of the gate like, I'm going to kill you.

[00:57:26] I beat up my wife. Worst guy in the world. That's crazy. So you're like, okay. I mean – Yeah. So then you're immediately just like, I guess he can't be the murderer because it's too obvious.

[00:57:35] But he's just – and it was that moment post-Matrix where people were like, Keanu's back. What do we do with him? What do we think about that? And then he's in this and people are like, well, he shouldn't do that. Right?

[00:57:46] I mean he got bad reviews for this movie. Can you just quickly pull up the run of films in between The Matrix and The Matrix Reloaded? We talked about it briefly on the Patreon episode. The replacements. The replacements. The Watcher. Right. The Watcher, the film pre-Matrix. Right.

[00:57:59] She plays a serial killer. Yes. The Gift, Sweet November and Hardball. Yeah. It's a tough run. Wild. I was watching the interview where he said – He's a good movie. Where he talked about this movie and he said, I hadn't played a bad guy in a while.

[00:58:09] And I couldn't think of anyone who had ever played a bad guy. But I guess that serial killer movie because he doesn't play bad guys. He doesn't usually play bad guys. He is a bad guy, I suppose, in The Watcher. The Watcher and this are the same year?

[00:58:20] Yes. The Watcher is one of those great like opens number one but to $7 million or whatever. It had like three weekends at number one and all of them were under $10 million. Does he ever play a bad guy? I mean, yeah. I don't know.

[00:58:32] I mean he just tossed off, I hadn't done that in a while as though that was a thing that we'd ever known him to have done. Yeah. It is interesting.

[00:58:39] I mean like it's a different type of red herring because he turns out to be kind of a sweet guy even though he seems really scary and haunted. That's the problem is like there's no way to make that character, the worst person in the world, a sweet guy.

[00:58:52] Well, what I was going to say is Private Lives of Pippa Lee, the Rebecca Miller movie. That you bring up on Patreon.

[00:58:59] Mostly just think about how good he is in that movie and it was the first film I maybe saw Keanu come into with like gravitas where like what he's now just he has in spades where it's just like this guy just has some weight to his presence or whatever and he's able to just dispense naturally.

[00:59:17] And that movie he does end up being a sweetheart but he ends up being a sweetheart without ever being as awful as he is in the beginning of this movie.

[00:59:24] But this thing it's like you feel the effort of him trying to be scary and in so many of the quotes that JJ pulled up, Hilary Swank's like it's tough because he's such a nice guy that he didn't want to touch me in scenes.

[00:59:38] And I said you have to hit me. Right, you have to at least pretend to hit me. I do think he's scary though. His violence was believable. That's why I want to give him partial credit because I think at a couple moments he is genuinely scary.

[00:59:49] I don't think it works. I think you feel the effort. Yeah, I mean I get what you're saying. I think you feel the effort more with just the character itself but when he's actually being violently scary I found that convincing. Partial credit.

[01:00:02] I prefer his performance to Rabiesse's, to Swank's. Greg Kinnear it's just kind of the role he played often it's just usually it would be like he seems like a nice boyfriend and he's a bad boyfriend. Right. It's just some shit.

[01:00:15] It seems like a nice teacher man but he's a bad teacher man. Right. It's just a more muted version of it. It's not a bad performance I guess but I don't think – I don't find him that threatening at the end when he needs to be.

[01:00:24] No, no I agree and then the Holmes of it is so odd. I think she is flat out abysmal in this film. Oh my god. She's bad. She's Rabiesse. She's bad. Yeah, yeah. It's crazy. She's bad. She's bad and there's no excuse for her being this bad.

[01:00:37] She was like she needs to do this to prove that she can be in grown up movies. Right. And then her role is like nothing and she fucks it up. And she's so naked. She is naked.

[01:00:47] Also like for this to be the role that proves something about yourself when I actually just use her for her body. Like it's a miscalculation for what – it's not going to make her – you're going to see her differently but not in the way she hopes.

[01:00:59] There's a quarter of the film where she was like I'm not uncomfortable with nudity if it's the right script and for a reason the Gift was obviously the right film to do that. I'm saying the Billy Bob spell.

[01:01:07] And I'm like she was cast only to be naked or a dead body. Yes. I mean those – she says what's the matter? See something bad? Right. You better fuck me now or whatever the fucking line I did at the beginning was.

[01:01:19] But I really think it's the Anne Hathaway did this, right? A lot of actors who are perceived as teens. Havoc. You're talking about your – right. The Drew Barrymore run certainly. Where they're like what is the most lurid against type role I can find?

[01:01:34] Like go get it for me. It's not just oh, they want me to be naked. Sure. It's like no, no, no. I need to completely toss the WB in the garbage can right now. But in so many of those films –

[01:01:44] What's her name from Game of Thrones is doing now? Arya. Maisie Williams. She just gave one of those interviews. She wants to be – it started happening in Game of Thrones where she wanted to be seen as like a sexual. You know like she was a boy.

[01:02:00] And now she's famous for being a cute teen or whatever. She's like I'm the only – she's like I don't want to be cast because I'm the only – she's so – she basically just wants to constantly be doing nude scenes. Yeah.

[01:02:12] I guess what's confusing about it to me though is those other examples we're talking about. They are the lead or the co-lead. Yeah, right. It's a much more juicy role. Right. This just asks her to do nothing. She has like five isolated lines.

[01:02:26] All of her line readings are just like thuds. And then the rest of the movie she's either a scary dead body covered in makeup. Which is kind of cool when she's like floating in the tree. It's the best part of the performance.

[01:02:38] Or she's a naked body in flashbacks. It's like one or the other or she's a dead naked body. The ice storm, she's like kind of pops in. She's really good at it. Disturbing Behavior which was like teen Stepford Wives with Marsden, kind of a fun movie.

[01:02:52] This was a time when like every female friend I had watched Dawson's Creek and loved Dawson's Creek. And so I would see any movie that any of the Dawson's Creeks were in. Because they wanted to, you know, it's like disturbing behavior. We're going.

[01:03:06] And I would be like okay sure. I actually was a sporadic Dawson's Creek viewer. Sure. Even as a teen TV show fan I never could get into Dawson's Creek. I don't want to wait. Right, right. But I saw Varsity Blues and I saw Disturbing Behavior. I saw Go!

[01:03:22] Which she's fun in. Yeah, she's fun. Sarah Polly's kind of the lead. But she's fun in Go! I don't think I've ever seen Teaching Mrs. Tingle. I think I have weirdly but that movie was sort of a misfire.

[01:03:36] And then I remember her being okay in Wonder Boys which is the same year as this. She's very good in Wonder Boys. She's very good in Wonder Boys. After Wheelhouse, Siobhan, Michael Siobhan is her. Did he not also write Ice Storm? He didn't but it's a similar.

[01:03:48] No who wrote Ice Storm? Ice Storm's Rick Mooney. Yeah, but is that grouping? I just think she was in an interesting place because unlike say Blake Lively or whatever, right? Like someone who's on the big teen show of the moment, Amisha Barton, what have you.

[01:04:06] She had that girl next door quality which is obviously inherent to the entire premise of that show. But I do think like guys thought, boys at RAH thought she was really cute. And like girls who watched the show related to her. Yeah. She seemed personable. Sure.

[01:04:25] I agree with everything you're saying. Unlike often the girl at the center of the big hot teen shows. I mean she's the girl next door in Dawson's Creek. She's next door to him.

[01:04:32] So I think everyone was like she has to have movie star potential because she's not just. I still think girls. She's not Jessica Biel or whatever, you know? Yes, that's true.

[01:04:41] Well I guess I feel like girls felt like boys like her in a way that they don't like Jessica Biel and I want to understand what that is. Right.

[01:04:50] I guess you could feel like I have more of a chance to be the girl next door than Jessica Biel. I think when Jennifer Love Hewitt was put in movies it was like this isn't going to work, guys. This isn't going to work.

[01:05:01] But Katie Holmes people were like this should work. Sure. And Ice Storm when she plays that role it is. But that's pre-Dawson's Creek. But she is that role though. I think that's her best. Yes. Almost by default but yes. She looks like the most 2003 person or something.

[01:05:25] Do you know what I mean? In this? Or you just mean general Jennifer Holmes? In general. I mean she's very iconic of a very specific sliver in pop culture. But in this way where I'm like people don't look like that anymore.

[01:05:36] It is funny when she shows up in Batman Begins and 2005 you're like huh her face. Like it's suddenly like the movie culture has shifted and her face doesn't totally make sense. It is still odd that she's in Batman Begins. She's also surprisingly tall and you don't register.

[01:05:53] In Dawson's Creek you're not thinking of her as a tall girl. Because Vanderbeek's really tall, right? Yeah and she's just got this little button nose and this little chipmunk face. She seems like a small girl. She does not seem like a towering girl. She's like 5'9".

[01:06:06] She's 5'9", Vanderbeek is a 6'3". You can tell in this movie because you see so much of her body that she's long. But I've seen other people who have spotted her and she's like she's a very tall woman.

[01:06:16] And that's there's a movie what's the movie years there's like Jonathan Ames movie that no one saw. I thought it Sundance Kevin Kline's in it and she's in it. Oh the one with the fucking flower on the poster. It takes place in East Village.

[01:06:30] I've never heard of anyone seeing it except for. It's not called The Other Man? Something like that. John C. Reilly's in it and he plays a homeless person I think. Probably. I remember liking it. I never heard anyone mention it ever again.

[01:06:42] I thought of the screening at Sundance and I was like this is gonna be Kevin Kline. This is it. He's gonna be the new. He's still Murray now. He's this era of Kevin Kline. Older statesman.

[01:06:51] I think Kevin Kline just someone who he's reason he's not in stuff is because he's choosing not to be in stuff. They call him Kevin D. Kline. The Extra Man? Yes, The Extra Man. Which was directed by Sherry Berman and Robert Pulcini the American Splendor guys.

[01:07:04] Jonathan Ames wrote it. Have never heard of this movie. Paul Dano is in it apparently. It's got a stack cast. It's good. I mean at least I remember it being good and she's in it right? She sure is. Ben flicked you a couple comedy points.

[01:07:17] Ben flicked me comedy points. I just want to say I didn't create Kevin D. Kline. That was a thing said the industry at the time because he turned down things so much. I'll take the points. Ben took them back.

[01:07:29] So, Katie Holmes is not good in this film and I would say this film, you know, mostly unfortunately because it is basically like a Gentleman's Six-ish movie that's alright, becomes this weird footnote joke. It's in Harold and Kumar.

[01:07:46] That's what I was trying to remember which movie it is. It's Harold and Kumar where you know Krumholtz and Thomassey and Nicholas I think. Yes. Or Eddie K. Thomas. They're the Rosencrantz and Guildenstern. Or the Rosenberg and Guildenstein or whatever.

[01:07:58] And the joke of that is like oh they have their own separate adventure that you don't see in Harold and Kumar but you pop in with them. And at the start they're like we're going to watch Katie Holmes. She's Jewish and she's naked in this movie.

[01:08:09] And it's like oh horny Jews. Who would have thought? The reputation of this movie was oh Katie Holmes had such a girl next door persona that she seemed like an actress who would never get naked.

[01:08:18] And then there's a movie where pretty much all she does is get naked. And at this early stage of the internet not being as extreme as it was, it was like I've heard there's a rumor that if you watch this movie you see her boobs.

[01:08:31] Even from the vantage point of today when you have access to so much I could understand watching this movie now why this would be a film that you'd want to see it. It's all shocking nudity in that sense.

[01:08:43] It's shocking in the way she's shown like it's if that's what you're there to see you're not going to be disappointed. No it's like a perfect movie to like fucking slow down. Yeah.

[01:08:55] She's got these scenes where she's like on display but they move really quickly and they're like crossfades of Rami style. There's unfortunate critics. The critics don't handle her nudity well. The critical community of 2000 wasn't really too up on talking about this stuff sensitively.

[01:09:12] This is a year before Harry Knowles writes his cunnilingus review of Blade 2. The whole thing though with nudity in American films. Let's unpack it. I really do think everyone just needs to settle down about it and not be stunned any time they see a naked breast.

[01:09:27] But then like nothing is helped by the fact that then even critics will be like and keep your eyes open around minute 100 of this one. It's not so much true anymore but back then it was. It was shameless. It's difficult because there's such a now.

[01:09:43] Americans are such prudes and also like Americans like are fucking like it's a national news story. There's this whole puritanical. She's like ID'd as the smoking hot babe. It's fucking embarrassing. But also like Giovanni Rubisi should be given an Oscar.

[01:09:54] There's a puritanical wave now of like no sex scenes should ever be in movies and people who just assume that any time anyone's naked in a film it is some form of emotional abuse or coercion by the production. Or what do they get paid for this?

[01:10:06] Why are they doing this? What kind of game is this they're playing? Whereas like French actors are like yeah I fucked a killer whale in my last movie. Who cares? The problem with Katie Holmes being naked in this film is it feels like her ticket in.

[01:10:18] Like no one else has to do it. It's very easy to project a narrative on it. In order for her to be in this adult movie that's what she had to do. And she's talked about it once again as I said like that that script demanded it.

[01:10:28] I was happy to do it but you're like it just feels like you're that's it's if I do this. Yeah. No one looks at me the same way ever again. Yeah. I get to like evolve to the next stage.

[01:10:39] I mean the overcorrection of people being like maybe all this is fucking bad is like that we had like 60 years of critics being like Katie Holmes doesn't give a good performance in this movie. She gives two good ones. Yeah.

[01:10:51] You know like these fucking reviews where people have to make the joke about whatever. And this movie also with the weird stuff that Cate Blanchett's not even allowed to like kiss someone else.

[01:11:01] Like it's such a Madonna whore stuff about like just weird there's issues in this film underneath the surface that are not being grappled with. Is it because outside of the first Evil Dead Sam Raimi is not a very sexual filmmaker. No he's not great at that.

[01:11:16] This probably is only film of nudity. But I don't think he's not like I think he handles the sex scenes bad in this movie. It's just it's just how it's only on all falls on Katie Holmes.

[01:11:25] And then and also he does like I am interested in his like idea about punishing like I think he's like punishing the audience. He also wants to punish himself.

[01:11:34] I think there's a correlation in kind of Giovanni Rubisi's character and Sam Raimi the way he like Giovanni Rubisi says when he's like not grappling with his dad yet and he says like it's OK he had to hit me.

[01:11:45] And I'm like that's kind of how Sam Raimi feels about audiences like there's something very boyish about Raimi in every sense.

[01:11:51] And I think the reason Simple Plan works so well even though it seems out of the box for him and it's the only one of these adult movies that really connects is because it is such a morality tale.

[01:12:01] Like there's something so biblical about Simple Plan where the lessons of it are very clear and it's like fundamentally good people struggling to remain good and all of that. Yeah. I mean Paxton was almost played the Kinnear part in this.

[01:12:14] And you're like Paxton could have made this work. That's the kind of tortured normal guy you want here. Kinnear is sort of just giving low energy. Well the thing with Kinnear is it's like they are just trying to pull a trick on us.

[01:12:25] Right. But the thing is a lot of people tried to pull that trick at the same time. I know I've looked at the poster. I know it's going to be Kinnear. He still talks soups Greg Kinnear. Obviously he just got an Oscar nomination a couple of years ago.

[01:12:36] It's not that he doesn't act. But I feel like he's still like oh Greg Kinnear with the big pearly white smile. There are three faces on this poster and two of them look like the scariest men in the world.

[01:12:47] And the third one looks like the guy from Talk Soup. I'm guessing you're going to have the guy from Talk Soup be the killer. It should have been Hilary Swank. I agree. She says that I'm glad she died.

[01:12:59] She's taken my man and that's the only time they try to throw this other person in. And I guess Gary Coley tried to throw in too but you know he didn't do it. But it should have been Hilary Swank. It's the better version. It's got complications to it.

[01:13:11] Here's another thing that sucks about Katie Holmes in this movie though. Her character not to back on her performance more right. But just like even as written the only things we ever see her do when she's alive essentially are fuck guys,

[01:13:22] fight with guys she's fucking or has just fucked. Or the one moment where she comes in and it's like they're coasting off of her reputation at the time where it's like

[01:13:30] here is the most sort of like suburban looking lady in the world hugging her husband with a cup of coffee and going like what do you see? Say something mayab. Right. But like she has no character outside of she just can't stop fucking everybody.

[01:13:43] She doesn't even make any sense. Why is she marrying Greg Kinnear? Her fucking everyone makes more sense than her getting married. You don't even see flirtations. You just see fucking and aftermath. I think a different director. It's like all the sexual energy of this town.

[01:13:56] The horror movie version of this story is that all the sexual of this movie is all the sexual energy of this town is funneled into this one woman and no one else is allowed to feel any have any sexual. Right. She's like the Ivo Shandor building.

[01:14:06] That's just like collecting all of the energy the sexual energy. I think a different director might be able to handle this differently because obviously it's sort of like oh in this small town what darkness bundle bubbles under the surface.

[01:14:17] Katie Holmes secretly an adulterous Giovanni Ribisi victim of abuse. Right. You know. So when you watch the movie Minute One you're like everyone in this town is completely fucked up. This town is completely fucked up.

[01:14:30] I don't get how this psychic has not been drawn into every single goddamn insane shit thing that's happened already. This feels like a town where every home is a cabin with an economic con in the basement. Like everyone in this town is going through their own evil dead.

[01:14:44] But that's why in that regard I do think Sam Raimi is the right one. It's just he didn't let himself go as full into the darkness as he wanted because that's what he wants every house to be that fucked up.

[01:14:55] Yeah. But that's why I think he just can't handle the tone. There's no real realism to this and like it might work if there was. And I think some Thornton maybe could give you that or whatever. That's why it's again Simple Plan.

[01:15:07] Simple Plan. I went and watched Simple Plan after this because I wanted I first I wanted to be like just maybe every movie from this time that it's not a movie. I think that era was not good. I needed to I needed a constant.

[01:15:19] I needed to have something to compare this to and tonally and see the location that's there's so many similarities. And it comes before and then he manages to lose.

[01:15:30] But I think with Simple Plan Sam Raimi understands that buttoned up Midwestern like attitude a lot better than he understands the South which he doesn't. And I think he understands the psychological dynamic of what if I found a bag of money how would I.

[01:15:44] All the Southern stuff in this feels like I have just gone to where is this Georgia right you know and I've been like I think I know what it's like around you like I just I would like to be clear I don't. Right. I know.

[01:15:57] What I think I know about this shit is from movies. This is my thing. I'm watching this I'm like I feel like I'm offended by how broad these characterizations are even though I have no right to say that as I'm sure it's not really my community.

[01:16:09] But I can tell this is wrong. Like it all feels like Princess and the Frog level. Yeah characterization of the people in the South are in each other's business but in this movie it's like to a degree that is just it's insane.

[01:16:21] Right. It's like there's no way that everyone knows about everything that's going on with each other in this way. But they also don't care about each other. They're also just so mean to each other. I'm like isn't that is that that doesn't seem Southern like how everyone's.

[01:16:33] The only bits I like are like J.K. Simmons.

[01:16:36] When she's talking to him and she's like you know saying I saw a vision of this and he's he immediately knows like well that could be half the place he's like well a pond you know like where I'm like this guy seems to actually know the town.

[01:16:48] Cole Simmons Ross are like this trifecta in this. Chelsea Ross is really good in the scene where they drag her body out of the water. What a guy. Let's cut him out for a second because he's been in. He's in Simple Plan.

[01:17:00] Right. He comes back and drag me to hell. He does. Yeah. And in different roles like he. Yeah. He has range. He's got incredible range. He is a guy. So he looks a lot like my recently departed great uncle Earl who was a family member I loved dearly.

[01:17:19] And so I remember seeing Chelsea Ross shop as a kid in movies maybe when I was a kid not when she was like my uncle.

[01:17:27] Right. I think he's in Richie Rich as a security guard or something and I was like oh that's the uncle Earl actor but he's one of those guys where every time he fucking shows up I'm like steady ass hand. Remember him in Mad Men.

[01:17:40] That was such a good run on Mad Men. So he was this like memory guy from my childhood. I felt like I hadn't seen for a while. He has that run on Mad Men where he's so good.

[01:17:49] And now any time I'm watching like a 90s movie where Chelsea Ross shows up I get so fucking excited. He's got a great face. He's only got three scenes in this right maybe but he is really good.

[01:18:00] His first scene by the way of course is Katie Holmes seeming like she wants to fuck her dad as well. Like that's how over sexualized this character is. But that heart attack scene yes dragging her body out is incredible. I think the tension of the drag.

[01:18:14] Any time Rami gets to play with tension spooks nightmares. But it's not what he wants. Keanu's best scene is the scene where Keanu comes into her house and starts like and he's like I'm a broken handheld camera. Yeah yeah yeah. Like something fucked up could happen.

[01:18:32] That's why I don't understand why he couldn't let him go. He's back in a haunted house and just his. He won't let himself do it. He's angst about it. He wants to not break the reality. He talks about this right to make the supernatural not exciting. Yeah.

[01:18:51] Look I understand that you object to these things. I feel bad for him. It's more that I wish that he. But maybe he had to do that.

[01:18:59] No but it sounds like he didn't because the way he talks about this film is like in the interview I read he was like you know in the baseball movie that was a very clear thing we both wanted the same thing.

[01:19:07] We wanted to be a commercial film that everyone wouldn't watch. This one it sounds like he pretty much was given free reign and he put these restraints on himself. Correct. Within a small budget. Yes.

[01:19:19] But he wasn't it just he decided that he couldn't go for it and that's. Yeah yes. That feels like a missed opportunity. He doesn't only get so many movies.

[01:19:29] But I do think so much of it is the Coens thing where if you look at the reviews of the Coens and Ramy at the beginning it's just sort of like wow they have so much energy. There's so much ingenuity. There's so much invention here.

[01:19:41] I don't know any of these characters exist or if any of this really means anything like people were dismissive to all of their early films and you look at like the Raising Arizona reviews and they're like it's like a cartoon. There's like no substance to this.

[01:19:53] And then that Fargo moment right. I mean and you have like the Miller's Crossing Barton Fink lead into that and then Fargo has this big explosion.

[01:19:59] I think he just had this thing of like almost like looking around at his friends and being like why am I the only one who's not married. You know where he was like. Isn't that what Simple Plan is? And then that is not a hit.

[01:20:12] That's the problem is that Simple Plan doesn't blow up as much as Fargo does. It gets a couple Oscar nominations or whatever but it feels like it should have done better than it did. That I think he's like I still haven't gotten the one that totally connects.

[01:20:22] I just I can't. Does Spider-Man have it all? I know. We recorded Spider-Man earlier this week so like I watch these two movies in flip order and it is bizarre to just watch them and be like Spider-Man's the more personal film. Agreed. And it changes everything.

[01:20:43] He's going to get his wish in a way that is. It doesn't pay off for him. But it doesn't pay off for everyone else. Yeah. Like he gets to make more Spider-Man movies. Yeah.

[01:20:54] And then it's like I guess I'll see you later and the superhero genre has sort of outrun me. But I guess in a way that you can look when we trace back how did we get to the Marvel world that we live in. Yes.

[01:21:08] I'm not saying it's good. I mean I'm glad. I'm not saying Spider-Man's not good. I'm not saying it's good that Spider-Man came out and changed everything. I'm saying you're going to be able to trace who built the bomb.

[01:21:19] And even if he didn't pay off in that thing he did change everything. It did ultimately change everything in a way that he did not. He couldn't even have known what to wish if he wanted to make an impact. He did.

[01:21:29] Look I'll tell you some more context about this film. Please. They only had 44 shooting days. Now these days that's a lot. But he's like it was outrageous. He'd never shot for so few days. Yeah. Like 44 shooting that's like basically two months of work.

[01:21:46] I mean like to me now like. Yeah but everything's bad now. That's why it's. Interesting. No but like not to go off on a side tangent here but this is why there are more and more stories of like horrible accidents happening on sets. Well no that's true 100 percent.

[01:22:01] I'm not going off on a whole tangent about that but that is a fact. These are all part and parcel of the same thing which is everyone wants to get movies made quicker. Right. And cheaper now. And they end up paying out the nose later in post-production.

[01:22:12] But that used to be the proper amount of time. You can't make a movie in less than 90 days or whatever. Like it was just impossible to consider doing it. A truly strange fact in my opinion is they had like more than a week of rehearsal. Yes.

[01:22:27] Nothing about this movie screams we honed these characters but I guess in this rehearsal they're all like that's maybe Ruvisi's like bigger and they're like yeah this is crazy. We're generating here.

[01:22:39] You hear about Keanu and Hilary Swank spent the week together talking about every detail of life including how they had sex with each other. And they went to like therapy groups to like absorb abusive relationships firsthand and all this shit.

[01:22:50] And then you read the quotes where it was like Hilary Swank being like we had to develop a rhythm where he had permission to mishandle me and all this shit. It's so bizarre. It just doesn't really translate.

[01:23:01] But you're talking about the whole like Southern character of the movie being wrong right. There's the Chelsea Ross quote there because there are a lot of good Chelsea Ross quotes because on top of everything else and that would be in a fucking G.

[01:23:11] Chelsea Ross is apparently best friends with Billy Bumps. He's great pals with Billy which makes sense. They do seem like they should be friends. Two men with otter faces. Exactly. Thank you.

[01:23:22] But he said that like Billy Bob was really angry about the Keanu casting because he's like I can give you a list of 75 guys who are this type of guy. 100 guys who would be right for this role. I grew up around these guys.

[01:23:39] I know what these guys are fucking like. But Chelsea Ross to his credit says I've worked with Keanu a number of times. He gets busted a lot.

[01:23:46] No one works harder than he does but he does seem to also be allowing like but at the same time Billy remembers growing up in Arkansas and Keanu is not the kind of guy you would have seen down there. Right.

[01:23:58] And you never stop thinking about the fact that you're watching Keanu Reeves doing this. No. He's the most California looking fucking guy. Yes. It's not exactly like the character also has no nuance whatsoever.

[01:24:11] But I understand it's funny that he has this facial hair that at the time was like oh this patchy beard he can't quite sell and now that's like basically his John Wick facial hair. Yes. It's funny that now he actually could make that work.

[01:24:25] It is funny that the John Wick thing they literally like took a ruler to his face and they were like if we just make these three lines here around where your patchiness is suddenly it works. It looks.

[01:24:34] Whereas for 20 years people have been like what's up with Keanu's embarrassing beard that he can't grow. Now he's Mr. Beard. Right.

[01:24:42] I just think Billy Bob's point is even if this character isn't rendered with any great detail it's like I could give you a list of 100 good southern character actors young men who will just show up and give you this vibe for free.

[01:24:54] And all this role needs to be is vibe. And now you've turned it into an experiment for Keanu Reeves to show his range. And Hilary Swank too I would say. The same list should have been given for Hilary Swank. Yeah.

[01:25:05] Because that's the kind of character that if they would just had she's so distracting. You know who should have played Hilary Swank's part? Kim Dickens. Who is in this movie. As Cate Blanchett's best friend. She's putting mustard on it but I love Kim Dickens and she obviously understands.

[01:25:19] I didn't want her to go away. I wanted that scene to be longer. But she's in the right tone. She's in the right milieu. She's fun. She's in the right place. Cate Blanchett interviewed many a psychic as part of her preparation.

[01:25:34] She does say that she had five readings in one week that were contradictory. So that's slightly snide or slightly disparaging of her. But then also apparently when doing press for Nightmare Alley which is also a movie about psychics or you know whatever. Mentalists.

[01:25:53] She said like years ago a psychic told me that I would have four children and other things like that. That at the time I was like this is nonsense. And of course I ended up having four children.

[01:26:05] And now I'm afraid to see her again because what if she's like. It's just funny that the press tour for Nightmare Alley she was just recalling her. Yeah. She never put it together.

[01:26:15] She never occurred to her that she could maybe be like I have three children but the psychic told me four. So now I mean she does have. Oh that subconsciously. It's not like she just woke up and there were four children. Maybe she did.

[01:26:28] Actually certainly you don't know. Have you guys ever gone to a fortune teller? I have although not. I feel like it's mostly been at like a party or something you know like someone will do that.

[01:26:40] Like I don't think I've ever been like I'm going to a fortune teller today and like Googling the nearest one. It's something I love to do when I'm traveling in a new city. I'll just go to like the fortune teller. It's a very Ben thing.

[01:26:53] Can you tell the difference between the two? Can you tell other regional differences? Like a DC versus a Chicago. I mean yeah they usually are very like vibe of the city. The hot dog. Is it a good way to get to know a place?

[01:27:08] They pour out the relish David and they start like mixing it around on the table. I see roast beef in your future. Do you know what makes New York psychics better in my opinion? The water. That good water. The hard water.

[01:27:21] I did like one of those walk up like psychics where they have the neon sign in the window in the second story of some building once with my friend.

[01:27:29] And the only thing I remember her telling me is that it's going to take a long time before I get married. That one's haunted me but now I'm like is that because she fucking told me. Exactly now you're doing what Cate Blanchett did.

[01:27:41] That's how you end up with four kids. Yeah this is why I'm never going to get married by the way. That's because I want to prove her wrong.

[01:27:46] I think the cards are total nonsense because Remy was like I don't want this to be rooted in anything you know like terror or anything like that. She should just have weird symbols that like she clearly knows what they mean but it's.

[01:27:56] Isn't it a game? Is it not that game? They're the Ghostbusters cards. No. They are the cards that Bill Murray uses at the psyching test. The wavy lines, the square, the circle. Yeah. He just calls them bland meaningless symbols. That is he was insistent.

[01:28:10] But there's also a game that was set. It also looks like the set cards. Oh sure. It's like a set of four repetitive like it's like circles and squiggles and stuff.

[01:28:18] But I do I like that aspect of it that Remy was like you develop your own internal system. I just want to be able to shoot you and go but like I don't want to have to do a close up of like a hangman or whatever.

[01:28:28] Yeah definitely a movie I would want to see with about that psychic. It's just it keeps pulling away from it.

[01:28:35] Just to be clear like Bill about Thornton's childhood was his parents were still together but his mother was operating as a psychic out of their living room and he was like there was that weird vibe of like we had magazines sitting on our table like it was a dentist's office.

[01:28:50] People would wait for their reading and like the guy who says he's bleeding but doesn't want to go to a doctor is like a thing that Thornton pulled from. That was a real guy that you would see.

[01:28:58] His mother never got roped up in a murder mystery but it's more of the idea of. Yeah. You want more of that to like I. You want more regular customers. Yeah. Even it would have helped so much to have just as even a sprinkling in right of that.

[01:29:12] And then look the other thing I find kind of interesting this movie is that we're talking we failed to talk about the other great supporting character actor performance in this movie which is of course Michael Jeter as the prosecution. When's he bad. Never.

[01:29:28] Obviously we've talked about Michael Jeter on this podcast before. We could be on the Polar Express. When we dove deep into Michael Jeter. If you're seeing him and he's in Fisher King right. Yes he is so good. So the Fisher King and he's really always good.

[01:29:41] He really is. This isn't the kind of thing you'd think he'd excel at. No and you'd almost figure him to play the cop or whatever. Right. Like the J.K. Simmons role. Right. But he's so good in this.

[01:29:51] And I think J.K. Simmons song was like you know fuckers been stealing my role for 10 years. Sorry. I've been telling you J.K. grow out the mustache an additional two inches. J.K.'s looking his must has a little thin in this one.

[01:30:03] Jeter's always got a full push bro. He does. He's got a great mustache. The Jeter scene is the other thing this movie is kind of interesting with regards to that it doesn't I think explore enough or I guess maybe compellingly enough which is this like.

[01:30:18] So in order to accept this evidence you have to buy into the idea that the supernatural is real and this like question. That whole sequence feels like another movie. Yeah it's somewhat interesting but it's not long enough.

[01:30:32] No but also I literally was just like why is she on the stand. Right. He has a reputation for violence. Yeah. And we found a dead body in his fucking backyard. Right. Yeah. Convict. And so they're like bring in a psychic who's like you're telling me you're magical.

[01:30:49] Yeah. Your husband died. This is devastating. The case was the fucking judge is like sustaining right when like Keanu saying like fuck and being like so fucking crude. And he's like telling the lawyer to like be quiet.

[01:31:05] And then also when she's getting cross examined he is saying some of the most wretched horrible things. He's like I do hate witches. Why don't you shut your whole mouth. It's like fucking crazy. It's like a horror mouth.

[01:31:19] The stenographer also you see this like the stage where there was not quality control on that background. No because she was she's so prominently displayed in the scene and she's typing so elaborately over the key. It's very distracting if you want you see her.

[01:31:37] She becomes the star of the scene. I do. And that made me feel like Sam Raimi wasn't even set that day. I do wonder. Look it's maybe a convenient excuse but I do wonder if like he gets Spider-Man halfway through filming this movie.

[01:31:49] I do wonder if at certain points in the production of this film he's just starting to daydream Spider-Man more than he is paying attention to what's happening. That's the only thing you should rewatch the stenographer.

[01:31:59] That's the only now knowing that he got Spider-Man is means that that scene now makes sense. Right. You're just like he's just there was no direct. I mean so but imagine being in the mental state of that. Imagine having to finish this film knowing what's.

[01:32:13] No I can't run a couple other things. You mentioned Paxton was the first choice. Yeah. Ron Eldard was the second choice who's one of those guys where it was like he was in things for a second. Yes.

[01:32:25] I don't want to be rude about a guy who might be a nice guy. He's a horrible actor. He is. He gives one of the most rude movie ruining performances I've ever seen in which one. The House of Sand and Fog.

[01:32:37] One of those things where when he walks in you're like oh who's this and five minutes and you're like well we'll be ruined. Well and then. It sucks. Obviously he's part of a bad storyline. Yes but he's really bad. He was in ER which is.

[01:32:50] JJ Abrams takes him off the bench weirdly for Super 8 and then like he does the old Eldar shit and it kind of fucks up the movie again. It's he's bad in Super 8 and that could be good. I know. He's I mostly.

[01:33:01] I think that was supposed to be Renner. Because he plays an absolutely horrible character in ER. Okay. He was in Love Interest and dropped dead Fred. Yes that's right way back when. He didn't do a blind lawyer show.

[01:33:14] Didn't he do a show that was literally called Blind Justice. That was Rudger Hauer. Oh that's Blind Fury. That's the sword story. You're correct that he did a show called Blind Justice. It's like Daredevil but what if he's not a superhero.

[01:33:26] And yes he he is a blind policeman. Oh right. He would go to the scene of crime and he would see things that no one else could. It was a lot of Stephen Boczko shows that people don't remember. Right. You know and that's one of them. Yeah.

[01:33:41] Ran for 13 episodes had a notorious show killer Rena Sofer in it. And Frank Grillo. Grillo. Love Grillo and Michael Gaston and Saul Rubinick. This sounds like a canceled cop show from the 90s. Anyway. Can you hear the third choice.

[01:33:56] You know there was the classic like can we really cast talk soups Greg Kinnear. And then they did. Could Paxson not do it. I would assume like he's actually busy. There was something I think I saw whatever the specific project was. But yeah.

[01:34:09] But yes as we mentioned he. It's a real leap between the two like from Paxton with that. What's his name. Eldard. Eldard is one of those guys where people are like this is a guy right. Right. I don't know why. He's higher than Greg Kinnear.

[01:34:26] I think it was just because Kinnear was so light at that point in time. Like even though he's working to cast off the talk soup thing. It's also like his legitimate movies have been Sabrina as good as it gets.

[01:34:31] And you've got mail which are all like a very like light tone of geniality. As good as it gets before this. Yeah. So he's got the Oscar nomination but he still hasn't done a movie where he's like serious. That's what I mean. How can this be this serious.

[01:34:45] It's insane. That's what I'm saying. You listen to what you're the words coming out of your mouth that they're like to hear the words coming out of your mouth. I had done the level of serious. But I truly think that was the thing.

[01:34:56] Where they were like Kinnear can be charming. Sure. But can you play like a real guy. But the whole thing is serious. You've got male mystery men nurse Betty and loser which are the four movies in between.

[01:35:10] Actually well it's a run of interesting movies that he is always playing the same part which is like you think he's nice and actually smart. Yeah. And like he's so good mystery man. He is very well cast in mystery. That fucking small role. But he's so yeah.

[01:35:24] But the scene where he just sort of lays out everything that's going to happen. Here's what I'm thinking flip the script. Is it perfect. No but I think that's why I like it. I just sorry I have his entire performance committed.

[01:35:37] After this of course he gets autofocus and he's like finally Oscars coming for Kinnear. Let me jerk. Yeah yeah yeah. Obviously as we mentioned Sam Raimi found out he was directing Spider-Man in the middle of filming this movie. Yeah. I mean he has a golden ticket.

[01:35:56] Hence J.K. Simmons my golden tickets as we haven't mentioned it. I do like the Rosemary Harris scene. It's kind of sweet and kind of evocative. You do understand how he on set that day watching her deliver that dialogue

[01:36:06] straight in the camera goes little Aunt May vibe here. Yes this works. I could carry this over as you say composer Christopher Young was like yeah he was pretty busy. Well like while I was doing we had like one meeting where he was like look

[01:36:19] I know you can do all the supernatural scary stuff. I want you to rate a score for the emotional journey of this character this woman finding peace at the end of her grieving process. Right. Which I I don't think that emotional narrative tracks very well across the movie.

[01:36:37] And definitely not the ending note of it. It's not the closure. It's not a movie like The Descent where I'm like oh this like supernatural movie this horror film at the end you realize has been a film about coming to terms with grief for Babadook or whatever the

[01:36:50] fuck. And I just feel like I forget at certain times her internal journey. Because of the shaming part. Yes it's because like I just feel like I don't like how they don't allow it seems like it's being decided not by her when her journey gets she

[01:37:03] puts her head on Greg Garnier's chest an hour and 15 minutes in and you're like she should have been having a developing relationship with Greg Garnier 30 minutes in. Right. But obviously he was married he was engaged to Katie Holmes. Whatever.

[01:37:17] But once he's his wife is dead and she's they're both single. She still says I can't do it because you're not her husband yet. And then you're like oh my God I'm this whole movie is me watching a woman grieving for her husband.

[01:37:28] That's the A storyline and everything else is incidental around it. And as much as I think Blanchett is like pretty solid in this movie the character just doesn't. It's pretty one note like that stuff and it just doesn't move on from it. She doesn't transcend it.

[01:37:44] She doesn't know it's really transcending anything. Can we talk about this movie's ending the Buddy Cole ending. Please. Buddy Cole of course is the character played by Giovanna Ruby Seay who we've sort of talked around. Yeah.

[01:37:58] Who is a mentally ill person who comes to Annie for readings a lot but is like super disturbed. She's he keeps on saying she's like his only friend. Right. And you're worried like is this a thing where he's like in love with her and doesn't have boundaries.

[01:38:12] And of course you're like who's going to be the bad guy. Is it going to be this guy. Right because he's clearly on edge and he has these sort of like breakdowns and outbursts. Or else he can do his Mice of Men moment.

[01:38:21] I don't think he's going to be the bad guy. I think he's going to like not have impulse control and mess up and be. It's also one of those things where like unlike Sling Blade where you're like this is such a good performance.

[01:38:30] I know exactly who this guy is and what his level of functionality is. This is a performance of such actorly like tricks that you're like what level of competency and functionality is this guy supposed to be at. Yeah. And I'm concerned for him.

[01:38:45] I'm just aware of how much Giovanni Ribisi is doing. Yes. To show us that he's disturbed. Yes. This vague catch all of disturbed. Right. And he keeps on talking about staring into the blue diamond and how it's going to fuck him up forever. Is it.

[01:39:03] I thought it was the eye. Is a diamond. Yeah. Blue diamond. It ends up being tattooed on his father. I'm like you know what just do whatever. You know she's distracted and she basically blows him off.

[01:39:15] Oh because he has that confession where he comes from he's crying hysterically and he's like I keep touching myself and masturbating. He like shows up at the courthouse basically. Like he's just gotten off the stand and there's Buddy. He's like quick.

[01:39:26] Outside being like I need to talk to you right now. Quick question. Why do I do uncomfortable things when I think of my dad and she's like I don't know and he's like let me make it really clear for you.

[01:39:34] I think of my father and then I masturbate. Meanwhile there's the townspeople being like which. Which. But she does really drop the ball on that. She obviously does but she's you know we sort of we get that she's besieged

[01:39:43] with stuff or whatever and she blows him off and then he snaps and ties his dad to a chair and sets him on fire. Right so mom calls her. Yeah. Outside the trailer. He's duct taped his father. He's whipping his father with a belt.

[01:39:57] It's a really unpleasant scene. It's a very unpleasant scene that does not just doesn't particularly feel earned it more feels like kind of this like ghastly twist. Yes. And then he's sent to a mental institution where he's like I'm going to get a mental institution.

[01:40:08] And then he's sent to a mental institution but of course in the end of the movie he magically appears and saves her. Yes. When she's being attacked by the vicious super strong and super intimidating Greg Kinnear. The iconic weapon of the flashlight. Yes. But no he saves her.

[01:40:24] And she's like he saved me. And then you got the classic like ma'am he hasn't been alive in 30 years. You know he died at the mental institution yesterday. You say he saved you at 9 p.m. But Buddy called you at 9 p.m.

[01:40:33] It really is that specific to you. They say all they say is that he hung himself tonight. I'm like well he if you don't give a time stamp on that he could have saved her and hang himself. Right. And he had a friggin blanket.

[01:40:45] He did have a wash. A little handkerchief. Time to wash the blank. No it's what she gave in the beginning. Right. When he's crying at the car when she gets her car fixed. Right. He slams on the brakes. Sweating something.

[01:41:01] I don't know why she gives it to him. Right. But it's like a baby like throw up blanket. Right. And then he washes it gives it back to her and then the fact that she has in her pocket as proof that somehow something supernatural happened. I don't know.

[01:41:15] Or is it or is it more like the cape Blanchett and the four kids. Maybe she's like always had that in her pocket. Then she takes it out to make herself feel like it's proof. I just wish Giovanni Rubisi's character was not in this movie at all.

[01:41:23] Do you think. You could almost lift him out. Grandma shows up and saves the day. That would have been the better. The thing is because he got her. He's in his own movie. His character is always just with her. So it means it.

[01:41:38] It means nothing other than him saving her at the end and this twist that is sort of like, OK, fucking whatever. This is a year after Sixth Sense. I don't fucking need. And it doesn't and it extra doesn't land because because they've been separated. Right.

[01:41:50] Like not only has it been done a million times. Truly hokey and bad ending would be her husband saving her. Yes. They didn't do that. I don't think they should do that. No, but it's almost weirder than it's like that guy that you kind of kind

[01:42:02] to be also kind of weren't that helpful at the end of the day. He came and helped you. I'm like, why? Who cares? You truly kind of sucks. This whole movie is about toxic masculinity.

[01:42:14] I know it's an overused term, but it is like if there ever is a movie about that, there's these guys are bad. All the men are riddled with. I mean, they're just like they're really over the top. Yes. And why they are bad.

[01:42:26] Every man wants to like fuck you and kill you. And like you say, Cape Land, you're like, I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I think the romantic dimension is saintly in this kind of a way of like,

[01:42:34] well, I'm just a single mom trying to make ends meet. And I don't have time for romance and I don't have time for you know, and I want to be friends to you know. To this guy who like really violently tried to kill. Fuck. Wait a second.

[01:42:46] David's wedding ring. I mean, I fiddle. No, I took it off. I fiddle with my wedding ring. Mysteriously. Do we think. David, check your hoodie pocket quickly. I'm just at their peak is Giovanni Rabisi against Ben Foster at their very best performances. Who's better?

[01:43:06] I think Foster at his best. Foster has given performances that I really, really love. I agree. Okay. No more like this drives me equally. No more curve. We got to do a curve. We got to factor in the bad, the best and the worst. Yeah.

[01:43:24] What does it average out to who's better then? I think Rabisi. Wow. Foster when he's like this irritates me more. I agree. Here's what I'll say. Rabisi actually has a stronger middle ground. I'd argue. Rabisi and Ted. Like funny. This is the thing.

[01:43:46] Like when he does the Seth MacFarlane shit, he's funny. Is Foster ever funny? That guy doesn't like me as someone who can be funny. I met him once and he was exactly. Yes. At 10. Yes. I'm just kidding. Too much. Like him in party mode is too much. Yes.

[01:44:08] Yeah, I think Foster has no middle ground. I think shit like Hell or High Water you're like he's phenomenal in this. And shit like 310 to Yuma I'm like take it down. 310 to Yuma it's too much. I do like him in The Messenger although it's a lot.

[01:44:18] Great in that. And Foster, go. Like terrible in fucking like Warcraft. But I think Rabisi has. He couldn't be on Friends either. No, Rabisi has a middle zone that's better. But Rabisi's worse is maybe worse and his best is maybe not as good as Foster's best.

[01:44:36] It's an interesting comparison. I think Rabisi at his worst is worse acting. But Ben Foster at his worst drives me more crazy. Bugs me more. That's true. Yeah, I feel almost mean about Rabisi now because I do think I like him in plenty of movies.

[01:44:51] And he can be quite subtle. Six performances I like from him. Yes. And he was so sneaky. Sneaky Pete Bryan Cranston produced. And he's in the pilot so I think that was a very in good faith show to take on. But like Foster could not do sneaky Pete.

[01:45:08] No. And I think everyone watching Sneaky Pete is like it's fine. This is the point. You haven't been keeping up with Pete and his sneakiness? It's hard to keep up with him. He keeps on sneaking away.

[01:45:20] What if that was the problem Amazon was like we try to put him on the homepage but he's so sneaky. It's not that our UI is bad. It's this Pete's too sneaky. He's hiding in family friendly princess movies. What's he doing over there?

[01:45:30] I guess I don't think I'm ever upset if a Giovanni Rabisi movie comes on. No and once again every I find this performance incredibly upsetting in its own way but I also go like I feel bad that they let him do this.

[01:45:45] Whereas Foster I'm like you should have known better. Because it's post this too. Like a world acting like this in a post-GIF world. Right. There's more points to take it off. The GIFT was given a limited qualifying release on December 22nd 2000.

[01:46:02] We will not be doing that box office game. No. Wide release. Because that is the cast away release. We will do its wide release which was on January 19th of 2001. Okay. It grossed $12 million against a $9 million budget. Okay. Another $32 million internationally. Not good but not lucky.

[01:46:22] If they had figured out how to monetize screen grabs of nude scenes this movie would have gone into profit 10 times over but in fact they could not. They lost all that. Did Sam Raimi throw his name into the hat before the GIF was even made?

[01:46:40] Yes because Spider-Man has been gestating for so long. He pitched on that I would imagine in the late 90s or whatever. I think it was 99 and then they hire him in 2000 when he's filming this movie. He makes it in 2001 and when did it come out? 2002.

[01:46:58] It was supposed to come out in 2001. And people thought it was because of 9-11. And then T-Rex reads Fury. They released it in May of 2002. We will discuss that on the next episode.

[01:47:06] No they thought it was because of 9-11 because of the weird teaser trailer and it was that they started making the movie and they were like how long does CGI take? A couple days. Come on. He swings.

[01:47:16] It truly was that foreign to them that they were like oh this movie is going to take a year longer to finish than we assumed. The GIF probably shouldn't have come out until after Spider-Man based on Sony paying Paramount to delay it.

[01:47:29] But Spider-Man took so long to finish understandably that it ended up coming out a year earlier. When you hear Sam Raimi talk about the Paramount classics in the interviews too I like that he says I don't really understand it myself.

[01:47:39] It's so funny. He's like there's like Paramount kind of wants it but they know that they don't have a market something that's this small and there's this guy Lakeshore and he's willing to put up 90 percent of the money.

[01:47:48] Paramount puts up the 10 so then when it's on home video and cable it's Paramount. But then they hand it off to the smaller. He's like I don't know they're going to put it in theaters who gives a shit.

[01:47:56] Yeah. I like that he's just like it doesn't you think it makes sense to me it does not. It never expands beyond like 800 screens. Like it never really got like a super wide release.

[01:48:03] It is surprising. I do think it's surprising that it wasn't a hit given how much the actors inside still thought this kind of movie had not been made. It's kind of a perfect January thriller and like it should have made the watcher money.

[01:48:16] Yeah right. It should have made more like 30 to 40. Right. And it makes 12. It didn't get particularly good reviews and I think it was saddled with this had Oscar buzz energy. Right. Like where it was given an awards release. That didn't work.

[01:48:29] It was actually taken out of theaters for a couple of weeks. Right. Like you know it was only a tiny release.

[01:48:34] And then they were like well here you go the gift. And I feel like already it was just kind of like well we're moving on because what was number one at the box office that week Griffin.

[01:48:44] You're pointing at me. He wouldn't know. January 19th 2001. This is a film for teens. It was number one the week before. It's one of those movies that was a big deal at the time.

[01:48:56] Was a hit. I feel like it's mostly forgotten these days. It's a January release. It's not a December holdover. No it's a January release. Solidly for teens. It's a teen film. What genre teen.

[01:49:11] Dance. Oh it's a blast. It's saved the last dance. Big ass hit. Yeah. Huge hit. Huge hit. Made 90 million dollars. In January. That movie is not forgotten. Yeah I see.

[01:49:25] Julia Stiles is great. That clip is their services all the time. Yeah. I think that movie is a little forgotten. But in that clip you're talking about. Yes you're right. People might not have not. I don't think they've watched that film but they definitely know what that is.

[01:49:38] And they're very familiar with it. I think you can make a reference to it and it will not fall upon a single deaf ear. Yeah yes. Whether it's visual or whatever. And it made her a bigger star now than I feel like.

[01:49:48] She's lasted longer in people's memory than I would have thought. It is funny. Because of that film. The 10 things I hate about you was like we're telling you these are the next two stars and then the movie over underperforms a little bit.

[01:49:58] And then they were like OK Julia Stiles make a dance movie. She makes a dance movie. That movie over performs.

[01:50:03] Everyone's like I guess you were right. Julia Stiles is the person. And then she kind of just gets stuck into like you talk to Jason Bourne over the phone.

[01:50:12] She sure does. I mean I was the biggest Stiles fan. I like her a lot. Still like her and like her if she pops up in a hustlers or whatever. Always happy. Silver Lines Playbook. She's very good. Yeah that's right. Damn. Yeah. Weirdly good sister casting. Yeah.

[01:50:28] Day long. Number two at the box office is a gigantic hit film that I recently mentioned. It's in its fifth week. No this is 2001. Cast Away. Yes. Fifth week it's made 181 million dollars. Huge ass. Big old hit.

[01:50:46] Now number three at the box office is an Oscar holdover that's more in a chugging along zone. It's made 46 million dollars in a month. It's going to make 124. Wow. So it's and it's not going to make that by suddenly exploding it just chugs for ages. Traffic. Yeah.

[01:51:04] Wow. Here's the thing with traffic. Yeah. Is it a good movie? I don't know. Because the whole thing with traffic is it's made by one of America's great filmmakers. Yes it's the thing that gets him the Oscar.

[01:51:14] Best director. Yeah. It's got a transformative performance by Benicio del Toro that I think everyone can still agree like what a great performance. Right. Half of it feels kind of hacky and lame now. Right. The drug stuff is really really like it has not timed well.

[01:51:31] But also because like in the 20 years since there were so many movies made about the drug trade that you know got into it in more detail. Right. Like before that it was like just the way that she gets hooked on drugs. It's so after school special.

[01:51:45] But like compared to Breaking Bad or whatever. Yeah. Is it the traffic has what? You know the del Toro story is very good. Yeah. The Cheetle story I think is almost underrated. I think he's amazing in that movie.

[01:51:54] Cheetle is the fucking best. Right. And then it's just that the Michael Douglas Erica Christensen story is the one that's kind of glaring and clunky.

[01:52:02] I just think it's funny. I haven't seen it in a while. Well that's it seems like a movie to revisit. It's it's it seems like the kind it could go either way.

[01:52:10] I've seen it one time. I probably saw in 2004 2005 on cable. I didn't see it when it came out. And I just remember being like this movie is so fucking bracing and real and intelligent and it's got so much fucking integrity.

[01:52:25] You won't believe how fucking good this thing is. And everyone was just saying like well Soderbergh obviously should win best director for traffic but it's never going to happen. It's too cool. It's too and there was a good vote. He'll split the vote.

[01:52:37] Aaron Brockovich was the bigger hit and the populist one Ang Lee's gonna get it. And when he won for traffic it was this like fuck.

[01:52:43] Yeah. Like yes. And now they made the right call. He won for traffic. Yeah. Right. And like that whole movie feels a little bit like hokey.

[01:52:50] Everywhere you're using describe it is the kind of movie that when you go back you're like we were so we I can't believe we thought this bad about that. The other thing is I think at the time people were like he did this thing that is so ingenious.

[01:53:00] The movie has multiple plot lines that take place in different countries and for each one he picks a different color filter which is the most overused shit in the world. Right. I don't mind those kind of movies. I can always factor in if it's overused after.

[01:53:16] It's more like I need I still needed to have something going for it. Like I needed to transcend the kind of the breathless way we describe it. If it's because I can always be like I've seen this many times after.

[01:53:29] I just think when I watched it in 2004 2005 and I was like I now finally am going to watch what is clearly Steven Soderbergh's masterpiece as everyone has presented it to me.

[01:53:39] I was like OK. I think it's a good movie. I haven't seen it in a long time. Did you like it? I liked I was like this is fine. I'm a little surprised that people were this rhapsodic about it.

[01:53:47] But it is also it's a two and a half hour film about the drug trade that made one hundred and twenty four million dollars.

[01:53:53] One for Oscars. It is wild. And then right after that he's like should I make a heist movie that redefines the genre forever and launches a million movie stars. But that's everything Sam Raimi wants to be.

[01:54:07] Absolutely. Sam Raimi. The fact that Soderbergh can make the most commercial fun films of all time and make the real ones. In an 18 month span he did Aaron Brockovich traffic Ocean's Eleven all three films. Don't forget Full Frontal. That's in there too. Isn't that right after?

[01:54:23] Might be. That's what I'm saying. It's those three happened in a row. We're all huge ass fucking hits. It is a crazy. And getting to throw the adult movie if Soderbergh is like I just like making an adult movie for a second and then pulling it off.

[01:54:34] Right. That's what kept Sam Raimi up at night. Yes. Knowing that that kind of thing existed. It's hard to be Steven Soderbergh. Not a lot of people pulled that off. No I can only think of one. Big old Sodie. Sodie Pop.

[01:54:47] Can of Sodie. Okay. Number four at the box office is a crime comedy that I think is expanding this week maybe or something like and becomes a bit of a sleeper hit off of a prior sleepier hit. Anything I say about this movie will both invoke.

[01:55:09] It's a sleeper hit off a prior sleepier hit from the same director. Okay. It's him being like what if I did the thing I did in my debut film again but with a couple movie stars this time. But apart from that it's the same vibe.

[01:55:26] It is a sequel or not. It's just another. It's not a sequel but it really is like the next movie by this guy. It's going to be the fancier version. More money. Right. The higher thread count. Can you tell us what genre that is?

[01:55:39] Crime. It's a crime comedy but like dark comedy. I like dark comedy. In January 2001. I'll tell you this. David Sims where he lived these films were inescapably huge. This movie is called Snatch.

[01:55:55] Called Snatch. Yeah. I mean the minute I bring up the East British might give it away.

[01:56:01] But I feel like Lock, Stock. In Britain it was like the most important film of the year. In America it was like huh some British crime movie has a little bit of juice.

[01:56:10] I will say to you it didn't land as hard but the marketing of the movie was like you need to understand this is the most important film in England. And it was very much this sort of there was a big kind of like this is the next Tarantino.

[01:56:22] I remember there being a lot of ads on MTV like they were specifically trying to convince teenagers you don't know how cool this movie is. And then Snatch. The UK just flipped out. It's truly him just being like same vibes, same cast, throwing Brad Pitt, throwing Del Toro.

[01:56:36] But what's it about? It's a little bit of diamond. It's just a bunch of fucking nonsense. And I'm 14 years old and I liked Snatch but there were just people in my life who were like there's pre-Snatch and there's post-Snatch.

[01:56:49] Right you know like they were just like it's changed my life. People had been snatched. I've never seen a man in a pork pie hat punch someone and say like lovely jubbly you know. And now that's how I want to live my life.

[01:56:59] That is an incredible summation of Guy Ritchie movies. A guy in a pork pie hat punches somebody and says lovely jubbly. That is correct. That is the whole vibe. And then underneath it is like some fucking Paul Oakenfeld remix of a soul song from the 70s.

[01:57:18] And the camera's cutting. Anyway Snatch. Have you seen Snatch? No I never have. What? You've never seen Snatch? Have you seen Lockstock? You never saw a Guy Ritchie movie before he got to Hollywood essentially. Where's my pork pie hat?

[01:57:35] Snatch isn't considered him getting to Hollywood if Brad Pitt's in it. Brad Pitt is in it and it was a Sony movie but like you know. It was a bridge. It was in between the two. It's still a British film. But he's not a good filmmaker right?

[01:57:51] I mean I think that The Man from U.N.C.L.E. is like the best kind of Hollywood movie that he can make. Where it's like the right level of blitz and silliness. Not a fan of the Sherlock movies.

[01:58:01] I don't love the Sherlocks and I do feel like his post Hollywood Brit movies, Rock and Rolla, The Gentleman, always kind of feel like he's you know same bag of tricks but it's sort of like we've been here before. You know like they never.

[01:58:16] Some people will stick up for Rock and Rolla because Gerard Butler of it all or whatever. But those movies aren't what Drag Me to Hell arguably is. I agree with that. And I think. And I find his Hollywood stuff mostly anonymous. King Arthur's got stuff.

[01:58:32] You always fucking stand up for King Arthur. What's number five at the box office? It's a film we covered on this podcast. It's a romantic comedy. It's a romantic comedy from the year 2000 that we covered on this podcast. It's a 2000 holdover?

[01:58:48] It sure is and it's made $162 million dollars. It's called What Women Want. That's right. Nancy Meyers. It's What Women Want. It was up until. It was What Women Wanted.

[01:59:00] Well I was going to say until Big Fat Greek Wedding that was the highest grossing romantic comedy of all time in the United States of America. Well. Wow. Women Wanted. That. Do you remember when we learned what.

[01:59:14] Honestly I had forgotten but yes we did see What Men Want. You forgot a perfect film directed by Adam Shankman my favorite director. Some other films in the top ten. Finding Forrester. You are the man now dog. Miss Congeniality a very charming film. Sandy Bullock.

[01:59:27] I can't remember the setup but the other day I made a good you're the dog now man joke and it was it worked. I'm glad for you.

[01:59:35] The context worked where suddenly it was the only correct thing to say and I said it at the right time and I'm not asking for comedy points. I just. Nope. Attention must be paid. I don't have any bones on me but I would give you a bone.

[01:59:46] There is also Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon. Only made $37 million dollars so far so it's also got a long way to go. Oh it's starting. It hasn't already done the run. Well they're like can you believe this movie has made $37 million dollars. Right.

[01:59:58] They're like what a huge hit and then it's going to make another $100 million dollars. There's 13 Days a very solid dad movie with Cosner about JFK. Yes but also very much. Part of JFK kink.

[02:00:12] That's like a poster love of game like Kevin you don't get to be the guy in a movie at that size exerting this much control again. You now have a January Cuban Missile Crisis. That's true. That's true. I mean I do think 13 Days got a limited awards release.

[02:00:31] I will say people thought Greenwood maybe had a shot. Greenwood's great in that movie. He's a great actor. He is a great actor. I think he's doing good the Greg Kinnear part. Sure. Why not. Hey. Right. He's got the edge.

[02:00:46] Now 2001 also in number 10 of course is the well remembered Orlando Jones Eddie Griffin. Double take. Double take.

[02:00:55] That movie came out on a weekend that I think overlap with my brother's birthday and my mother felt bad that she had not planned anything for my brother's birthday and she was like what do you want to do.

[02:01:03] And James was like I want to see double take which I also want to see because we are both all in on Orlando Jones as the 7up guy. Sure. And 40 minutes into the movie my mom was like I cannot go. Yeah I know it's your birthday.

[02:01:16] Look me in the eye. Very good. Look me in the eyes and tell me you're enjoying this. So we walked out of it and watched the second half of Emperor's New Groove which we had already seen.

[02:01:25] So I love that but the walking out of the theater into the other theater. That's a good birthday. It was great. Double take. And I remember you were like I'm going to put a dog and you're like they're really they think they're in trouble.

[02:01:36] They're like can we put a funny dog on the poster or something. Like I don't think we have enough. I mean the whole thing is they have to swap persona. One guy's button up and the other guy's kind of like. You're getting that from this poster.

[02:01:47] One guy's button up and the other one's a little bit more loosey goosey. They have to switch personas and I remember being like that sounds so fucking funny with those two guys and the movie starts and you're like oh this is like bad company.

[02:01:58] This is one of those movies that should be a comedy and is not and has no jokes in it. It's like the Gallo of the comeback trail. That's the thing. The movie should be midnight run and instead you're like why is this like.

[02:02:09] But I mean every movie should be a midnight run. The thing about midnight run is why aren't there more midnight runs. Why is it the only one. Why is nothing as good as midnight run. I feel that way but you can count on me and you midnight run.

[02:02:20] I'm like we could have a lot of these. Yeah. Instead there's so the exception and that makes that's confusing to me. I just want to note that opening at number 11 is Sean Penn's excellent film The Pledge which was a disastrous bomb but it's a good movie. Right.

[02:02:37] I've never seen it but like that's considered maybe the best late period Nicholson performance. It's really good. Is it a Nicholson directing one or. It's Penn directing Nicholson. Sean Penn directs. And who directed The Crossing Guard? Sean Penn. So before that. Yeah.

[02:02:58] The Crossing Guard, The Pledge, Into the Wild and it was like this guy is a pretty good director of pretty good dramas that are very dark. Yes. Really good with actors obviously. And then. Ben Stiller. You know he remains a really chill dude who never did anything weird.

[02:03:14] The Last Face. The Last Face and Flag Day. Okay. It's only those two. Are his more recent. Yeah. I mean he did Flag Day recently but there was a long gap in between those. Especially when Into the Wild had so much good will.

[02:03:30] The Last Face is like a notorious people at the Cannes Film Festival were like throwing tomatoes at the screen type thing. And it starred Charlize Theron when they were dating and then it came out like two years after they broke up because it was like radioactive.

[02:03:42] And then Flag Day is him and his real life daughter and he was like I want to make a movie about how I've been a bad father. And it came out right when theaters were reopening and bombed and then it was already being ignored.

[02:03:55] He was doing a press tour. Despite having the sizzling title of Flag Day. But he was like going on every late night talk show with his daughter being like I made this movie about my daughter. By the way men today are too weak. Wearing dresses. They're too feminized.

[02:04:10] He did some crazy anti beta male rant on like The View or whatever. Anyway. Is a gap because he was raising that daughter in between. Like it just why is there a gap at all. I don't know. Why did he come back. I understand why he went away.

[02:04:26] He's an asshole. Yeah but he's. You know he should make a lot more movies. I don't know why. I don't know if he feels that strongly that he should be making movies then I just don't understand why he stopped.

[02:04:36] I think he feels strongly about a lot of things. I think the problem is he keeps on shitting. He's going to smelt his Oscar remember. He's going to smelt it. I'm so fucking waiting. Everybody said he would smelt his Oscar if Zelinsky didn't come in.

[02:04:45] He could smelt both of them. He's like I'm going to smelt my Oscars. Yeah. Can you imagine if Zelinsky if they had piped Zelinsky into the Oscars after the slap and he had to just be like.

[02:04:58] Right everyone's just like oh okay hi yeah yeah yeah no sure sure sure. Was that scripted do we think. So he actually just wants to talk. So let's talk about the thing that you guys will now be talking.

[02:05:09] You guys will be talking more about the war than that right. My immediate thought after the slap was thank God Zelinsky isn't on this. Yeah they had to save him for the Grammys. Right.

[02:05:19] It remains so insane that that happened at the Oscars and then they did the rest of the Oscars. Yep. And just Kajistian got up there was like I like to think and I'm just like she might as well. Like I just like had no idea what she's saying.

[02:05:32] Yes. I mean just like watching a Twitter feed be like what is going on. Like is the weirdest thing in the world. Yeah. No one will that will. That's exactly the movie the kind of movie to that not that people forget maybe it'll all be kind of lost.

[02:05:48] Everything will be lost. Yeah. What did Jessica Chastain win her Oscar for and also what did she do during her speech. Yeah. But I mean the slap was so big that it not only eradicated speech but the film that the people were in were also erased. That far.

[02:06:05] The whole anything that they were. It's like weird. Kota is like we're the little film that could. Yeah. Like it no longer exists as a film. It is funny. I was at Marie Barty party parties. Yes. Oscar party along with that.

[02:06:22] And I was talking to a lot of people at the party where I was like I am so flummoxed by the fact that Kota has got this goodwill behind it because I think if you're looking for like the inspirational down the middle family overcoming the odds drama.

[02:06:32] King Richard is so much better than Kota. And then an hour later I was like King Richard will never be watched by anyone ever again for the rest of time. It's so. Take a while for that one to settle. Yes. No but maybe never. You're right.

[02:06:46] I was on the plane. I just got back on the plane. It's on there it's in the queue. King Richard and you just take like it's like you hover your finger over almost like an experiment.

[02:06:53] I'm like am I going to jump from the train like you like you get chills at the idea. Look pressing. I like that movie a lot. I don't know if I'll ever watch it again.

[02:07:03] And beyond the fact that it's just like oh it's weird that that's the one he won for the fact that he gets up and starts his speech with Richard Williams fought for his family. I'm like movies ruined. It does hurt the movie inextricably. I'll say this. Yeah.

[02:07:17] I watched Focus last week. Yeah. Ever seen Focus. Yeah. It's kind of fun. Good movie. Yeah. It's a fun movie. And guess what? Didn't feel too weird. I'm just King Richard. I'm just. Is that a Will Smith movie? It's not. It's King. It's a very specific thing.

[02:07:33] I don't disagree.

[02:07:35] I'm telling you it felt like if I had hit King Richard on the plane I was going to like set off something like I mean it was like a truly potent feeling of being like this just isn't I don't even it's not even like it's not even like I have like I have a lot of feelings about the slap.

[02:07:53] It's not like it's beyond anything that's like a yes or no thing is you don't watch this. This is never. But that having been said David you and I texted about just announced this week 25th anniversary Men in Black 4K steelbook.

[02:08:06] I'm going to fucking Sonic the Hedgehog run over to that Best Buy locker to put it pick it up and put it into my player. It's not like I feel like Will Smith is forever tarnished. He's not the one who was detonated. It's it's that movie. Perfect.

[02:08:20] It actually like it's kind of tidy in that way. Yeah. Just let's leave. I mean it's like a sarcophagus like around Chernobyl. It's like when you take the damage is contained. It's like the Green Goblins. One of his bones. It turns it's a controlled little guy.

[02:08:37] That's a call forward. I got a P. OK. You got to take us out. OK. Yeah we got to we got to wrap this up. Starley thank you for being here. Is there anything you want to plug.

[02:08:46] I have a podcast I wrote called excessive with my friend Dan Roberts. It'll be coming out at some point in the future. It's an audible. You're going to get it. I'm going to be in it. Yes negotiated negotiations right before recording some real time negotiations.

[02:09:07] I'm going to be working on the show Dave. Watch that. That is a show that I love. Great. That is an excellent show. Great. I think it's the third season. Third season. That's very cool.

[02:09:18] That is a show I say this I hope this doesn't come across backhanded at all. But I was like there's no way I like that show. And then everyone was telling me the show's really fucking good.

[02:09:27] And then I watched and I was like holy shit this shows really fucking good. I had the same experience. And then a year or two later the second season comes out and people were like holy shit this is a huge leap from the first season.

[02:09:35] I was like hold your horses. Dave isn't going to take a huge leap from season one to season two. I watched all season two I was like fucking holy shit. Huge leap. People describe it really accurately. It's got the most accurate word of mouth hype I would say.

[02:09:48] Because it has to have it. It feels impossible and the show is aware of it I think to its credit. Oh my god the balancing act of it. It is incredibly good. I'm very excited you're writing for that.

[02:09:59] You're a phenomenal writer and the show is lucky to have you as much as we are lucky to now get to be able to watch starly written episodes of Dave. Yeah there'll be starly written episodes of Dave. His dick's really weird Ben. Yeah I know.

[02:10:12] It's a big part of the show. It's the only thing I'm doing before starting on Dave. This is all I cared about making time for in the world.

[02:10:21] We should say you literally got off an airplane a red eye flight and came straight to Ben's apartment to record a thing that is bananas that you were very adamant to do. So adamant.

[02:10:33] Between the last time you were on the show I shot my tiny thing for the search party finale and we spent a lot of time talking on set and then Charles Rogers birthday party and you had been telling me how into Blank Check you had gotten.

[02:10:45] Oh I mean I'm about to so I drove from LA to New York last June 2021 pretty much only listen to Blank Check. I'm about to drive back to LA Blank Check.

[02:10:56] In fact I was so it's like when I found out I was gonna be on it I was glad that I was gonna have a bit of a lead time because I was like what if I don't have I don't want to have my episode in there.

[02:11:06] I need to have enough Sam Raimi to get me to LA. Sure. And so then if I clog it up I'm not I lose an episode.

[02:11:12] But I I like now that this season I feel like is really when we're it's the people you've asked back and we're really understanding like the scarcity of slots. And hearing I hear it in every Sam Raimi guest. We're at this stage of the pandemic. We're here again.

[02:11:34] We're all together and we made it. We made it through. We're back on the show. We're we're trying. It definitely look I certainly enjoy making the show a lot more than I did two years ago or even a year ago. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Yeah.

[02:11:48] But I just like that there's some like that some of the you know the gang's all back. Yes it's better. Yes. Yeah. And it's nice to like oh I mean someone like you who we knew but we had never gotten to record with in person.

[02:12:00] Thank you for coming straight from the airport to record this stupid podcast and not even taking a shower. A thing that boggles my mind. No I mean there was no there was no shower in between airport. Oh I'm just saying I wish I had if I wish.

[02:12:12] But then I'm like knowing that there's that Delta lounge that exists and people do have showers. I know it's wild. It's wild. No.

[02:12:21] But yeah I'm like that would be a reason to get those miles in order to take a shower in order to be on the podcast freshly. Medallion status.

[02:12:28] But yeah so I'm going to do this and then I'll get driving my car and just start listening to Blank Check. Thank you again. Yeah. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate review and subscribe.

[02:12:37] Thank you to Marie Barty for our social media and helping put the show together in a bunch of other ways. Thank you to AJ McKee and Alex Baron for our editing. Lane Montgomery in The Great American Novel for our theme song.

[02:12:49] Pat Reynolds and Joe Bowen for our artwork. JJ Birch for our research. You can go to BlankCheckPod.com for links to all the nerdy shit connected to this show.

[02:12:58] And you can go to Patreon.com slash blank check for Blank Check special features where we do commentaries on franchises twice a month. And we're doing all the Batman movies that we haven't done before.

[02:13:10] Filling in all those gaps before we get to Roger Moore who won our March Madness. He did. David's excited. I'm excited for that. Yeah. I watched the Oscar speech where Moore, Connery and Kane give out Best Supporting Actor to I'm forgetting whom now. Kevin Kline. Oh he's back.

[02:13:33] Did he decline it? No he accepted. That one he didn't decline. He A-Klined. Tune in next week for a movie. I'm just going to check my notes here. That is called Spider-Man. Cool. A 2002 Sam Raimi film called Spider-Man with guest Matt Singer. Read up. Not short. Not short.

[02:13:55] But we got a lot to talk about. The man who wrote he would say A book on Spider-Man but I would say the book on Spider-Man. And as always. He's a boxer innit? He's a boxer innit? He's a boxer innit? I play Jobly. I bought you to Jobly.