The Matrix Resurrections

[00:00:00] Breaking news! What? This is huge. I'm sorry. Okay, two months old. Matrix 4, Lana Wachowski directing it. YES! Keanu and Carrie-Anne Moss are in it. WHAT?! I don't know what to tell you. WHAT?! Because they were denying it as of a week ago. A week ago.

[00:00:18] Just Lana, as we sort of have already figured out, it appears Lana and Lily have, right, sort of split. I gotta say, this is like, this does not feel like surprising news. I feel like we all knew this was coming.

[00:00:31] No, I knew it was coming, but I figured it was not gonna be Wachowski's. I know Keanu. And I thought if Wachowski's weren't doing it, Keanu wouldn't do it. Yeah, he'd been clear he wouldn't do it. David Mitchell is a co-writer on it. The author of Cloud 9.

[00:00:44] Oh, sure. Weird! I'm so excited! David is yanking out his hair in both directions. I'm so happy! This is so, I'm genuinely so happy. I gotta take a photo of this for posterity. The moment he learned. But back to Miyazaki, am I right? Anyone? Oh boy.

[00:01:08] We don't deserve it. He's just losing his mind. I'm so happy right now. He's beaming! Can I take a photo? It's gonna be great. You can take as many photos of me as you want. Don't check with Griffin! And don't check with Griffin! And don't...

[00:01:26] Back to where it all started. Back to the podcast. Mhm. Yeah. Right? I figured you'd do that. Of course. Yeah. I'm searching my bra... I mean, I'm glad you didn't do an analyst monologue. Yeah. Because they're long. Sure. Um... I feel like there's a...

[00:02:08] I still know kung fu. That's sort of the trailer. Turns out in my matrix, the worse we treat you, the more we manipulate you, the more energy you produce. It's nuts. I've been setting productivity records every year since I took over. And the best part? Zero resistance.

[00:02:21] People stay in their pods happier... Than podcasts and shit. I should have just said people stay in their podcasts. What the fuck am I doing? I was literally about to say it's right there for you. What the fuck am I doing? Pods, podcasts... You know? It's...

[00:02:36] Look, I'm still having my coffee. Welcome to the matrix. You're still having this coffee. I'm still getting in. This is a coffee obsessed movie right here. This is. Simulate. There's coffee in like every frame of this movie. Go on. Go on. Hi.

[00:02:50] This is an episode people have been... I know, I'm feeling the burden a little bit. Me too. On the weight of it. Can I say this? A little scared. I've been stressed out about this episode. No, I'm actually not stressed out at all. I live in this shit.

[00:03:00] I fucking eat, sleep and breathe this shit. It's fine. We usually take one week off per year. From releasing episodes. We usually are dark on the final week of the year. Right. In terms of releasing. On this podcast. Yeah. Which is blank check. With Griffin and David. Right.

[00:03:17] I'm Griffin. I'm David. Talk about a throwback. It's not a throwback. It's like we... This has became a thing like last year by slow... This is a Zoom thing. You could have fit a fucking reloaded freeway chase. In that pause between I'm Griffin and I'm David. That's right.

[00:03:40] That would have been exciting. Listen, it's a podcast about filmographies. Directors who have massive success early on in their careers. And are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. And sometimes those checks clear.

[00:03:52] And sometimes they go back to the matrix, baby. Back to the matrix. I can't do Groff. I can't either. I don't know what Groff is. I don't know what like... You know, what the germ of that. It's kind of a gentle voice.

[00:04:08] I think I wasn't too far off just because I think our speaking voices aren't... Yeah, you're not that different. ...wildly dissimilar in pitch. Does he have a... He's doing a thing in this. I need to watch this movie 10 more times, I guess.

[00:04:20] How many times have you seen it now? Twice. Same. Cool. Just two times. A lady. This is special for me. I don't want to overlook. It's the same for me with any movie I love. I rarely... When I was a teenager... Sure.

[00:04:33] I might watch a movie two times a week or three... You know, like over and over again. But these days, I'm like... Is it time for me to watch Spirited Away or Master and Co...? Like some movie I love. Sure.

[00:04:46] I'm like, eh, give it a few more months. It's always got to be a little special. Well, David, here's a question for you. How many times have you seen The Matrix Reloaded? I've probably seen The Matrix Reloaded like 10 times. Really? Only that? Yeah.

[00:04:59] I feel like when we started this podcast, you were like, I watch it a lot when I'm trying to go to sleep. You don't count those as full viewings? Eh, maybe. It's sort of funny to me to remember those days. Look, this is a throwback episode.

[00:05:12] I have not listened back to those episodes. I'll say this in a little bit. I mean, I have in real life. You know, David, I thought I was going to relisten before this and I forgot to do it, but let's just say it up front.

[00:05:23] I know I've already alluded to it. This is our first blush review of Matrix Resurrections, a film with a lot to process. Absolutely. Even though it's been a week. A lot to process and a lot of online discourse and noise surrounding it. Correct.

[00:05:40] Which is maybe at a peak right now. Who knows? Yes. No, definitely. But we covered The Matrix very early on in this show. First year, we were a stupid Star Wars podcast. And then we had the blank check premise of year two

[00:05:59] and we did M. Night Shyamalan and then we did the Wachowskis. Those were the two. Those are our first year. Where we were like, this is an interesting premise to do with these two clear examples. And then who knows what the fuck this show is after this

[00:06:10] or if they cancel us. You going to cancel us, Ben? No, I wasn't going to cancel you, but I mean, you had to do well enough to have me convince my boss to keep making the show. Yes, of course. David, these days, Zoomers complain about cancel culture.

[00:06:26] Real cancel culture is the UCB podcast network with no ad sales saying you don't perform well enough. They never did, though. They were always nice to us, to their credit. You were the top performing show. There was a point in time right before we did the switch

[00:06:41] from Star Wars to blank check where they were like, we'll give you a couple months. That's true. There was one meeting we had where it was kind of like, okay, let's see how this reinvention goes. We'll give it four months and then let's check in.

[00:06:54] I just want to say those episodes, which posted April 28th and May 5th, 2016, so five years ago, are respectively... Almost six years ago, my friend. Yeah. Five and a half. Far closer than six. Are respectively an hour 50 and an hour 26. This is a big point.

[00:07:13] Now, especially with revolutions, as we probably referenced on this podcast before, we were on a time limit. Shannon O'Neill. Shannon O'Neill had booked the studio and we maybe didn't know or... She was the artistic director of the theater. Of the UCB, but she was also doing her podcast.

[00:07:28] Correct. And I think we recorded both episodes back to back. No, we did it Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, or something like that. We did the whole trilogy on consecutive days or something like that. Okay. And so revolutions, people get mad to this day

[00:07:42] that that episode apparently doesn't have a box office game because we were so rushed. Wow. I think we spent... We did our usual thing where we spent too much time talking about some stuff and then at the end we're like, uh, and then also this happened.

[00:07:54] You know, like so... Yeah. That's one reason I have not listened back in a while, but those episodes are obviously fondly considered. I will re-listen before the thing happens. The commentary. Right. I want to formally, fully announce again. Right now, beginning of 2022, year of our Lord,

[00:08:13] on the blank check Patreon, we are doing the four Ghostbusters films. And then after that, we will be doing the four Matrix movies. We'll be going back to the Matrix. We'll be going back to the Matrix. So the point is, this is January and April,

[00:08:27] we'll be doing a second, slightly more distance view. May. Oh, no. No, sorry. March. March and April. Yes. April will be Resurrections. April will be Resurrections, but March 1st, March 21st, April 1st, April 21st. And the original trilogy we'll revisit with episodes that are now... So get excited.

[00:08:43] Yes. We will be doing more Matrix talk in the future. And we'll be doing the series that we're doing, which is the 77th episode, which is a new series. And if this is, you know, whatever, if this isn't enough... Well, I just bring it up

[00:08:58] because much like you, I've been feeling the pressure of just like, this is an episode people have been waiting for, for years. This is the thing. Yeah, I think more than anything else we've done on the show, even like the Star Wars movies, or... No, it is,

[00:09:11] because there's the moment that Ben placed at the beginning of the episode and editing of you realizing in real time is when it's announced, because like, it's not just how excited I was that that was happening. Lana Wachowski to make a new Matrix movie

[00:09:25] with Keanu and Carrie Ann Moss. That was like the announcement, basically. But it was like, there had been two years of discussion and chatter of like, they're gonna do a new Matrix movie, the Wachowskis won't be involved. Maybe a reboot. Zach Penn to write.

[00:09:40] Michael B. Jordan possibly involved. The other element, of course, is Wachowski split up. Maybe they're never gonna make any movie ever. Right, signaling maybe they're not that interested in making stuff right now, blah, blah, blah. A lot of that. But then, yeah,

[00:09:53] just the sort of terminal bummer of like, oh, the Matrix has gotten to the credibility point where they want to bring it back. Right. But it's gonna be some weird boulderized thing. Like, so just the pure excitement of that. The way you reacted, I...

[00:10:09] It was like, did you just get the worst news of your life? Like, did you just... Oh, because I'm like, freaking out? Well, it was like, you just went like, blank. I can't even explain. It's like looking at someone process shock in real time. You know? Sure.

[00:10:27] Where you just went like, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God. You were like, what? And then you just sort of like said it. It was wild that it was like, there had been no rumors and then suddenly there was a full announcement that was...

[00:10:36] There had really been very nothing. Like, Chad Stahelski had said one thing once about like, Lana has a pitch for Matrix 4 that I love. And then he walked it back and be like, well, it's very theoretical. Like, that was the only time anyone even hinted it.

[00:10:50] And we were just ready for the Zach Penn bummer news. And then suddenly it was like, Lana, Keanu, Carrie Ann. It's a sequel. It's like, right. Back to the Matrix. Mitchell and what's his name? David Mitchell co-writing it with Alexander Hampton. Right. And here's the release date.

[00:11:05] And you just... You say your great line. What do I say? It's going to be amazing and everyone's going to hate it. I was right. Look, I will say, I actually think you were less right than I thought you were going to be.

[00:11:18] I thought this was going to get like, Jupiter ascending levels of backlash. And I think there are more people who are on the wavelength of this movie than I would have expected. That having been said, when the trailer came out three or four months ago...

[00:11:33] People everywhere was like, holy shit. I was like, great. Is this going to be a fucking home run? Is she going to win everyone back? And it's like, the fact that she's like, at like 60 or 70 percent positive and the other percentage I think is incredibly negative.

[00:11:48] Well, here's what I'll say. All right, I'm going to say a few things. One, we're going to talk about the Matrix Resurrections on this episode, obviously. Two, I'm very enthusiastic about this movie. People who listen to the show might know I'm very enthusiastic about this series.

[00:12:01] I'm a huge fan of the sequels, defender of the sequels. Yada, yada, yada. Griff, you like this movie a lot. I love it. I would give it a capital L, Love. So get ready, anyone listening, for like a basically positive assessment of this movie.

[00:12:14] If that blows your mind, which some people online have indicated to me that it is mind-blowing that I like this movie, I'm sort of like... Apologies. That's certainly the vibe you're going to be getting here. Ben, I don't really know where you are on this movie.

[00:12:29] Oh, I'm about to slam dunk on this fucking mill. I actually didn't necessarily love it right when it came out. It was just, it was like so much to take in at the theater when Griffin and I went. I watched then last night

[00:12:44] and really locked in on the movie. Love it. So yeah, we're all into it. So this is going to be a very positive episode. That's fine. It ends, I turn to Ben, I go, well, that thing fucking rules. And Ben says, I don't know.

[00:12:56] And I said, you don't know? And he was like, I actually, I don't know what that is. And to be clear, you were like, I don't even know if I'm saying negative. I just actually don't even know what that is. I really had no idea. I'll say this.

[00:13:08] The movie got, I would say, you know, a few, a few very positive reviews, mostly mildly positive to mildly negative reviews and some like abjectly negative reviews. It's about 64 on Rotten Tomatoes. Not that Rotten Tomatoes is really a metric of much,

[00:13:24] but still, you know, like not a home run. But Revolutions was like 30 something. Well, Revolutions was greeted with disdain. Whereas Reloaded actually was sort of like a phantom of menace thing where it got pretty good reviews. I was going to say Phantom Menace, Star Trek Into Darkness.

[00:13:41] Where the critics were like, yeah, it looks like a Star Wars slash Matrix- Rise of Skywalker. Star Trek movie to me. Rise of Skywalker got fairly bad reviews, but better than it deserves. The first wave of people being like, yeah, it's not great, but it like works.

[00:13:53] And then I feel like six weeks later, everyone's like, oh, this thing's fucking tiring. Well, that's what I'm saying. Like the reviews from the critical community were all right. And then the backlash from the fan and sort of genre film community was strong. Yes. Quickly with Reloaded.

[00:14:09] And so by Revolutions time, everyone's like, fuck this. Same thing happened with Pirates of the Caribbean sequels. Yes. For that, the second one kind of got like lukewarm-ish. Like, oh, this is okay. And then the third one was really slammed. Right. And that's what's happening in my opinion,

[00:14:22] probably with this where it's like, there's definitely fans. There's definitely like a lot of, you know, people who really locked in with the movie. But I am sensing like an emerging, like what the fuck are you talking about? You thought that was good?

[00:14:35] Like there's definitely a sort of like, am I taking crazy pills community, which is fine. Look, and this is another qualifier. That's what I kind of want. I know we're throwing out a lot of qualifiers for this episode. But I think we're very aware of the fact

[00:14:48] that there are a lot of eyes and ears on us right now because of the history of the show, because everyone knowing the investment. But let's not suck each other's dick. Like, who cares? But yes. But I was stressed out about this. I didn't sleep well last night.

[00:15:00] I was re-watching shit. I was just like, fuck, I can't, you know, like how are we going to even do this episode? Um, but all of this to say, especially in the last two years, when I've been losing my fucking mind,

[00:15:14] uh, because of the state of the world and being in isolation, what happened? Right. Um, I feel like there has been a recurring, incredibly, uh, vocal backlash to when I, especially with new release films, that I love and am defending, try to intellectualize why people dislike it.

[00:15:38] Which I think people view often as me sort of projecting... You're being a fucking coastal elite douchebag. People don't like it. Talking down to audiences around the country. Maybe people just don't. Let people not enjoy things, Griffin. Right. That's the thing.

[00:15:54] Uh, I think I defend movies that I love, especially when they're weird. And you get a little too, maybe, or you're saying, like, too heady about, well, why don't people like it? I don't know. People don't like it. Right. And I'll say, look, uh,

[00:16:05] let me have my hyperbole. I enjoy being overcranked. Right. You have to remember that my role on the show is to be the fucking idiot comedy doofus. Uh, but beyond that, I do think also, uh, we don't do a tremendous amount of new release films.

[00:16:24] And part of our sort of anthropological study of discomfort covering... Usually, we're usually hindsight. We're usually looking at stuff with hindsight. So I think there's a muscle in my brain that is trying to understand the reaction to a thing

[00:16:37] where when it's old and it came out a week ago, people are like, you're attacking me at a raw wound. And especially when increasingly, there are oddball movies by directors that we now feel very emotionally invested in... That's true. Part of me.

[00:16:50] ...that come out and that are treated with some level of disdain, we really, like, defend them if we want to. Right? Right. And I think sometimes... This is all I'll say. I'm gonna try to... And David, fucking catch me and stop me if I start doing the like,

[00:17:03] I think people don't like this because of this thing. Because I really want to stay away from that. I really just want to focus on what I love about this movie. Because I think this movie is very divisive. And I, in fact, unlike some other cases,

[00:17:14] fully understand every single reason why people would dislike this. So I'm just gonna focus on what worked for me. Okay. Okay. Was there more? There was. And now I'm already forgetting what I was gonna say. I feel like you were building to something and now I...

[00:17:27] Um, but, uh, I don't know. I'm very thrilled. Come back to it. For one, I'm not... There's... The Wachowskis made a movie called The Matrix in 1999 that was very, very popular. Hugely popular. And is a cultural landmark to this day. Mm-hmm.

[00:17:41] They've not made a movie since that went over smooth. They only make... Correct. ...very big budget movies. Correct. Uh, but they've never released anything. Yes. The Reloaded's the closest to a movie that did really well with the critics and... Yeah. ...at the box office.

[00:17:58] It's sour. It's sour quickly. So it would be really weird for Resurrections to reverse that trend. Although it was, you know, there... Yeah, there was sort of a... Is everything cresting? Where it's like everyone loves The Matrix again and then, you know, like... But no.

[00:18:11] I'm gonna come back to that in half a second. I'm much more thrilled that it's a very divisive, perplexing movie... Yes. ...that is prompting all kinds of debate. And, you know, that's what a Matrix sequel should be... As you said... ...in my opinion.

[00:18:23] It's gonna be great and everyone's gonna hate it. Mm-hmm. The second part of the thing I was gonna say... Yes, go ahead. ...just is, uh, I remember that my broken brain, the two-point statement I was trying to make. Uh, the other side of the thing, uh,

[00:18:35] is I feel like very often, especially with these new releases, when you get to these responses that, as you describe, are, are you taking crazy pills? It is impossible to like this movie. Are these guys putting me on? Right?

[00:18:46] I've gotten a lot of that recently where I'm like... Yeah. ...do you... Have you heard me? I'm very fond of these movies. Like, it's really not surprising that I like it. No, of course not. I mean, you had a tweet about your wife going,

[00:18:56] -"I'm happy that you like it." -"It's truly what she said the second the movie ended." I was like, eh? And she was like, -"I'm glad you like it." And I was like, okay. Yeah. Which, look, that's a very romantic statement.

[00:19:08] I find that, that speaks to the health of your marriage... It was. ...and, and the loveliness of your partnership. Oh. That's a, that's a wonderful thing to a partner to say to another person. But, um, I, I just, I ask people,

[00:19:21] I will stay away from the, the fucking shit I do that annoys people. Uh-huh. I ask people to grant us the understanding that we're not fucking putting you on. Right. We're not in the tank. We like the movie. Right. Right. And, because even like...

[00:19:34] I wasn't sure Griffin would like it, but I thought he would. Yeah. Yeah. Look, there are ways I couldn't. Having a nice side. And I, I point to, and I still need to watch it a second time, West Side Story, I wanted to be fucking, like, effusive about.

[00:19:46] Yeah. I mean, I clearly liked it a lot, but had hangups. And I didn't pretend like, I fucking love this movie. And I feel like I will see people go like, they clearly didn't like this, but they thought it would be a bummer to shit on the movie,

[00:19:58] so they pretend they like it. Never works that way. And that, that, that's one of the few fan responses to our show that actually regularly pisses me off. Okay. Okay. But don't worry about it. Let's, let's not talk. But that's why I'm just, those are the two

[00:20:10] qualifying statements I want to throw out. All right. All right. Okay? And just in case we do have to say, I don't know why, but just on the off chance that somebody new is checking out the show with this episode, we are going to spoil the movie.

[00:20:19] We're going to spoil fucking everything about this. If you don't want to spoil, then turn it off and see the movie and then you can listen. And that person, of course, saying this because it's a new year, maybe this is a jumping in point for people.

[00:20:29] Yes, it is. Go ahead. Ben Huxley, the producer of the show, producer Ben. Hey. The Ben Ducer, the poet laureate, the meat lover, the tiebreaker, the fart detector, the finest stone crick. This is a thing that started a long time ago

[00:20:38] where Griffin gave me a bunch of nicknames and the bit is that he goes through it and it takes a really long time. White hot Benny. And it's like a soaking wet Benny. Sort of dished to a railman. Mr. Momentum. Mr. Haas. Close personal friend of Dave Lewis.

[00:20:53] And it just goes on and on, but fans seem to have liked it for some reason. Santa Haas. I know, David's like shaking his hand. It's like a 50-50 kind of thing. Wishful Ben. What is that? That was I.O. Debris. Oh, that's right.

[00:21:05] Came up with that in Beyond the Lights episode. I remember that. Haasleywood. Hey. Because he was in Hollywood for the Dark Star episode. That's true. He also has graduated to a series of tells over the course of a different miniseries, such as producer Ben Kenobi,

[00:21:15] Kylo Ren, Ben Night Shyamalan, Ben's Eight. At some point. That's his. Save anything dot dot dot. Ailey Benz with a dollar sign. Just absurd. And I would see people wearing them. Mr. Ben credible. This is like, you know, the health medical. The Haasleday public.

[00:21:28] And Ben is kind of. Yeah. Of the ditch of the jersey. Yep. Stop making Ben's with his. So now he's doing. Yeah. The miniseries names. Colon pig in the city. Ben Haasley met Sally dot dot dot. The secret life of Ben. The secret life of Ben.

[00:21:41] The great mouse fart detective. The Haas break kid. Parentheses open to punch up. Ben's in the Haas. And I want to just say it now for the first time ever. Ben escaped from new Haas. That's what we're doing. Oh, good. Good.

[00:21:52] And I just want to say this is the first time that I finally have conceded and pulled up the blank check wiki and just read the list because I officially can no longer do it for the reason. Well, also, one reason I do my memories.

[00:22:01] We don't we don't have a lot of time. So I'm going to say this. I'm going to say this. I'm going to say this. I'm going to say this. I'm going to say this. I'm going to say this. And you'll see why. I will see why because I'm

[00:22:13] soemotipated in a lot of ways by talking about Haas that the wiki said, but we don't do it every week anymore. Yeah. Right. And the reason we don't do it any week any more apart from the fact that it takes a long time

[00:22:25] is that it just became so mortifying to do it in front of any guest. I was not very, very close with. That's a B. It was so mortifying to start the chain for me and be like, What if I blank? Well, sure. You have the performance things, right?

[00:22:39] But I just like it would be one especially gets so embarrassed. Yeah. But like, it's like, you know, like Michael Cerveris, like some guy where it's like, God, it's so exciting that we have like a really fucking Tony award when, you know,

[00:22:50] impressive, interesting person. And then Griffin's like, you know, and I'm just like, Oh, but we have a couple people coming on the podcast this year. Yeah. That that are bananas. Hopefully. I mean, let's not, let's not, but yes, yes.

[00:23:07] I'm saying that because we just updated the spreadsheet with the new ads while you were doing that. That funny. We haven't, Jesus, we have enough wild people booked that I feel comfortable saying we have a couple wild people coming. Cause even if some of them drop out,

[00:23:22] there are enough people on the spreadsheet right now who blow my mind to possibly be on the show that I imagine at least one or two of them will super exciting. We love it. The matrix resurrection resurrections. So yeah,

[00:23:36] Lana Wachowski film on a solo for the first time, although since eight season two is also solo Lana. I want to dig into context here because I do think Ben and I walked around for a while after seeing the movie. You started at the Williamsburg cinema.

[00:23:51] We did Omicron has been ravaging New York city. This movie was obviously available on HBO max. I completely understand and support anyone who just does not want to go to a fucking theater right now. It's scary, you know, but I,

[00:24:05] you and I agree and perhaps we have biases here, but I do think I am able to impartially view this with a certain amount of logic. I do think movies are a safer indoor activity than most public things.

[00:24:18] I agree. We don't need to talk about, especially because like us, we just found a screening where there were going to be five people in a big auditorium. We looked at the Fandango preview. We were like this time, no one's there. The screen's big enough.

[00:24:30] We sat up upfront David Griff style way up. Disgusting. I people, everyone's different. Everyone lives in different places. Everyone's allowed to do it. David's one of these people like my father who wants to sit as close to the exit as possible.

[00:24:42] I like aisle back aisle back where people are like, well, the screen's not filling your face and I'm like, the screen's very big. I can see the whole screen. It's right there. Right. And I want to not remember that anything exists other than the screen.

[00:24:53] Right. All I need from a cinema experiences, you know, darkness, good projection, bright, you know, blah, blah. And I asked for total immersion, you know, no one's looking at their phones, you know, like that's all. But I will say,

[00:25:05] I saw this film in at the Lincoln square IMAX. Okay. Did I tell you what happened? No. And that was like kind of, you know, it was like a slightly edgy time. Being stressed out about getting there earlier early enough that you could get your seat.

[00:25:21] I there's a particular seat I like at the Lincoln square IMAX right at the back because it's a secret bathroom. There's a secret bathroom. Not that I went to the bathroom during this movie, but you know, I am a famous, famous peer, you know, famous.

[00:25:34] It's probably one of the three or four things you're most famous for. Yeah. Esther Zuckerman friend of the show loves to, anytime I don't pee during a screening be like, damn, you liked it. Like you didn't even take a break with my dad.

[00:25:46] The test used to be a movie was really good based on how little he slept through it. Right. When he would take us to fucking movies and go like, yeah, it was just an edge, you know, all the cases were going up.

[00:25:57] You starting to hear about people. Yes. You know what? And so I was, I remember I was a little anxious about that, but also also anxious about I want to see my movie. Of course. This screening,

[00:26:04] by the way, there were not a lot of people there. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I expected like, you know, kind of a rocking full house, which I had just gotten at Spider-Man for the press. Yes. And this one, I mean it's a very big theater that theater.

[00:26:17] So maybe that's why it felt sparse, but it was like, you know, but Spider-Man today just across Sony's highest grossing film of all time. Uh, in nine days, 10 days, something insane. I mean, Oh no. The stat I saw is that it just outgrossed, um,

[00:26:33] rise of Skywalker, which was the highest grossing film the last two. Since right. Cause it was the last sort of, it was the highest grossing film of 2019 the last pre pandemic year. Right. So it's now the highest grossing film in three years,

[00:26:46] including even the rest of the 2019 box office. And it surpassed rise of Skywalker's number in 12 days. It's very successful. Then it took rise of Skywalker 91 days to get to. It's very successful. Uh, it's a fairly fun theater experience that I had seeing that movie.

[00:27:08] It is nice. I enjoyed that movie. It is. But it also, uh, people have, look, people are reporting on the fact that this movie is bombing at the box office. And I think that is a completely impossible to judge based on it being on HBO

[00:27:21] max at the same day at a time of a spike over the holidays when people are staying at home. I mean like all Spider-Man's doing well, it's like, well, Spider-Man is not like any other movie that has come out in the last two years.

[00:27:31] And it's also the audience reaction is getting, which is better. I think it's great for better or worse. The thing that drives people leaving their home and going to a theater these days is not wanting to be spoiled. Yeah. And right. Exactly. But the X factor with Spider-Man,

[00:27:46] I don't want to have to avoid the internet because there are all these things that I know are going to get spoiled for me. And I think if Spider-Man were available on Disney plus at the same day, it would have made a tremendous amount of money,

[00:27:58] but a lot of people would have gone health risk. I'm going to stay home and watch it. And with matrix that became a very easy decision to stay at home. A lot. We can talk about that in the box office game.

[00:28:06] This is what I want to say. Okay, go ahead. Ben and I took the walk back from the theater to the train station. And I, uh, Ben was as, as we said, saying, I truly don't know what to make of that.

[00:28:20] I don't even know if I dislike that. I just, I don't even understand what that is. And I was like, Ben, I want to give you a lot of context because I do think the context on this movie

[00:28:29] is incredibly important. This is a movie that is so much about itself, which is the thing that some people find annoying, right? But this is a movie that is about the exact place this filmmaker is in at that point in their life.

[00:28:43] It's about where this series stands in the cultural mind at this moment about where she wants to be as a filmmaker about the prospect of having to make this film. It's about all of these things. So as you said,

[00:29:00] the Wachowskis are screenwriters who write a spec script called the matrix, which they sort of, it has that classic first screenplay thing, even though it wasn't literally their first screenplay, but a lot of what they had done before that was like for higher writing job,

[00:29:15] this sort of stuff, right? They'd written Ecto Kid for a Marvel imprint. They wrote Assassins, but it got heavily rewritten, all this sort of shit. But they were like, this is our big fucking swing. Right.

[00:29:27] And by their own admission was one of those things where it's like we put every single idea we had into this one script. We put everything we liked into one movie. It's like make, write a script as if you're never get to make another script ever again,

[00:29:39] everything in their lives up until this point in time, they pitch it to Warner brothers. Famously, the Warner brothers executives go, I don't think we understand it. We can tell that this is something big, but we don't get it.

[00:29:55] Would you mind explaining it to us again after they had read it? But it gets acquired and there were years of it. Will this get made or not? Because it was risky. They were just like, does this make any sense? We don't want anyone else to have this.

[00:30:07] There's a version of this as a blockbuster. They really want to direct it. Warner brothers was very scared about that untested. They go off, they make bound essentially as an audition film to prove that they could direct

[00:30:19] a movie. Sure. Even though it's a small film, once they see that, they go, these guys know where to place the camera. Right. Sorry for saying guys misgendering. I meant in a gender neutral term, but obviously it's more sensitive when we're talking about the two. Okay.

[00:30:31] Okay. Yeah. That's all everything you're saying is true. I'm going to take over a little bit here. Okay. There's two, you know, just to clarify Lorenzo de Bonaventura and Joel Silver were crucial in getting the movie made.

[00:30:40] Lorenzo de Bonaventura who was the head of Warner brothers at the time and was a big ass dork and for better or worse is one of the people who is probably responsible for culture shifting that much in that direction.

[00:30:49] Certainly at a blockbuster level. And uh, you know, they, they, the way they finally get the movie approved is the storyboarding. Uh, this had like a 600 page storyboard book that they present, which is basically the whole movie. Jeff Darrow, the comic book artist. Right.

[00:31:03] And Steve's gross worked on that. And, and like that was where they finally did it. It was made cheaply for like, I mean, quote unquote cheaply for like $65 million. But one of these movies that was sort of a forebear of how these blockbusters are

[00:31:14] made now where it's like you can watch the entire film before we've shot an inch of film. The storyboards are so deliberate. We're so specific about what the effects are going to be at the shots are going to be the timing of everything.

[00:31:26] And they send one brother. They shoot the first sequence, they send it to Warner brothers, Trinity, you know, the cold open up the movie is and Warner brothers is like, looks great. We can relax. Exactly. You're on your own.

[00:31:39] And then obviously the movie was a huge hit. The movie, the matrix is, it's been very interesting watching people rewatch all the matrixes. Right. Some people who probably have not in a long time and pretty much the universal

[00:31:52] reaction to the first matrix is damn. Like movies used to look like this, like blockbusters. Like it is such, it is still amazing to me and to people. I think just like how, like sort of like flawless and I don't know,

[00:32:09] enduring it is like, I mean, it's such a, it's almost a boring movie to talk about, but it's also such a complicated movie to talk about. I they re-released the film. They remastered IMAX. And then they also released it in normal size screens.

[00:32:22] And I dragged my sister Roman Newman to see it because she had never seen it. She was one years old when the first came out, which is a bizarre thing to think about that someone can be quote unquote an adult. It's a 22, 23 year old movie now.

[00:32:40] Correct. Right. Right. And she's about to turn 24. So I took her to see it and she knew almost nothing about it. She actually has avoided the cultural of the matrix. She's not into sci-fi. This was nerdy bullshit. Right. In her mind.

[00:32:55] All she knew was that I had quote unquote some trans take on it. And before it started, I was like, I need you to understand this isn't a take. This is the reality of these filmmakers and what's happened to them the 25 years since. Right.

[00:33:11] But I was very curious, like is she just going to shut down or is this movie as sort of like universally undeniable as I think it is? And it is. She just went like, yeah, holy shit.

[00:33:19] And it was also wild to see someone whose entire life has pretty much happened post matrix be able to pinpoint things. Like I was trying to contextualize for her a little bit. Like you to understand no one had synthesized all these things before. Right.

[00:33:33] These were things that existed, but not in the mainstream and not together. When you're combining sort of like a club culture and anime and martial arts films and like deep hard sci-fi theory and short story, all this sort of shit. Right. Video games, video games. Yeah.

[00:33:53] All these things. And, and she was like, the fashion, that movie is incredible. And I was like, yeah, it's still fucking is. You look at the Met Gala any year and at least 50% of people look like they're from the matrix still almost 25 years.

[00:34:09] Later. But this is the funny thing. So I'm talking about this with her. Right. And then she's like, so then what happened after this? She asked the questions that are so funny that are just the questions you cannot

[00:34:20] help but ask after watching that movie, even this decades later. Right. She went like, wow. Okay. Hey, I finally get Keanu Reeves. Right. Sure. She was like, yeah, this is undeniable. I see the whole thing now. Right. Uh,

[00:34:36] and interesting to watch now at a time when I feel like he's finally earned universal credibility. He's no longer the butt of some jokes or whatever. Right. He had a win. People used to be like, he usually sucks, but he's effective here.

[00:34:47] Now I feel like people are like, no, Keanu rolls. Um, question number two, what happened to the woman who played Trinity? Sure. You watched that movie and you go, why have I not known? Right. Why is she not a big deal?

[00:35:01] This person has a movie star my entire lifetime. Yeah. And I'm like, she did other stuff. She works. She's around her being back for fucking matrix. Four is crazy. And, and Romley goes like, so wait, what are the matrix sequels?

[00:35:11] The fourth is like the first one, 20 years. And I go Romilly, they, everyone hated him. And she went, how is that possible? Are they really different? Which I thought was such a funny, right. Sure. She was like, I just watched this thing. This fucking is undeniable.

[00:35:29] The ending is so good. They made two more of them and people were angry. And I was like, yeah. And she was like, are they not the same? Yeah. My short answer I gave her was like, it was, the expectations were so high.

[00:35:41] They shot him at the same time, cutting edge special effects budget. So high. And the two movies pretty much deconstruct and deflate everything that the first movie. Uh, they do. And I think they're very intellectual.

[00:35:54] They don't have the same sort of clear emotional sort of awakening through line that made it easy for anyone to get into the first film. They go deep into the lore. Yes. David loves them. And Romley was like, of course he does.

[00:36:06] They're there. I used to just talk about the sequels right now. I can't do it. But, uh, but yeah, but they're, yeah, they, they're, they, they, it makes sense that they were not popular.

[00:36:16] I didn't like them when I saw them at the time. I was, I was, no, we talked about this. I was annoyed about reloaded. I was so hyped. I was 17 years old. Yes. And like, I remember, yeah, I was very intrigued by the architect scene,

[00:36:33] which I remember, I do remember even at the time I was like, Hmm, okay. And it was definitely not like I went to see revolutions. I wasn't like, fuck that. Like, which a lot of people were because like revolutions made half as much money,

[00:36:46] but I was, I did not, I did not go right. I basically saw it for the show. Yeah. Yeah. All those years ago, like I hadn't even seen the third one. That's how like little interest I had had.

[00:36:58] Did you even, I think you did watch the third one for the show. I did. Maybe. I think you did eventually. I know back in the day when we've like Ben, you can skip this, right?

[00:37:13] But let's say, I mean like there was at least lots and lots of reasons. 150 million dollar domestic drop off between two and three. And as you said, Rotten Tomatoes, it went from like reloaded gets 78% or even higher.

[00:37:26] Resurrections gets like 34. Like it was like all the anger of people, like a couple months later sitting on the loaded and feeling irritated. And I also feel like it was a little bit like after Phantom Menace came out where

[00:37:38] people were like, okay, that didn't rip the way I wanted it to, but maybe the third one will make sense of it. And then I think when people felt like the third one didn't give them what they wanted, they were like, now I hate reloaded twice.

[00:37:50] The third one is also right. Is probably the most challenging in that like it sort of takes a lot of the lead characters off the board for a lot of the movie. It's mostly set in the real world, which has a much more depressing aesthetic than the matrix.

[00:38:04] It's got this sort of machine versus humans war, which I think some people dig, but it's very, and it's very anime, but it's not as cool as bullet time and martial arts and all that. And like, so that's part of it. Uh, they're all great.

[00:38:17] They rule they're amazing, but there's no way they would. They rule because they're very, very, very challenging and they are very, uh, you know, not more of the same. And as you already said, and as I said to Romley, explain shit to her after this, I'm like,

[00:38:32] and then every movie they make after that bombs, they keep making movies that are challenging and interesting and innovative. And they keep making movies that are genre films. Yeah. Uh, speed racer is probably the least sci-fi, but even that is very sci-fi and obviously is a cartoon adaptation.

[00:38:50] I took her to see speed racer when she was a child and look on her face when she was like, so then what happens after the matrix sequels? And I was like, they made speed racer. Sure did.

[00:39:00] She could not believe and cloud Atlas and you know, it's sort of, it's sci-fi, but also a million other things. Jupiter sending is more, I think what people wanted from them in theory. It's like, Hey, they're doing like a sort of straightforward sci-fi movie.

[00:39:14] And then these people see it and they're like, I don't like this. Goofy. It's silly. It's a fairy tale. Right. It felt like Jupiter ascending was the end of the line. And then it was like now Netflix is backing up the Brinks truck.

[00:39:34] This feels like a pivot in culture that certainly has intensified since that moment. Right. Where it's like Netflix is going to lure in the filmmakers who are starting to get reigned in at the studios and let them do whatever the fuck they want.

[00:39:46] And sense aid is absolutely a, whatever the fuck they want show. Definitely. But was an early example of Netflix going like, nevermind. You know, they canceled after the second season. They let him do a finale movie. It was so expensive. It wasn't breakout enough for them.

[00:40:02] But definitely called popular, you know, and sort of build season two is kind of like season one, sort of a slow plot thing. And season two is more, but delivers more. For 20 years, I feel like,

[00:40:15] and we defend their movies and other people like some of them, you know, of course there is just that thing. The general public consensus is like, why can't they just make the matrix again?

[00:40:25] And I don't think anyone was at that moment in time asking him to do the matrix for, but it was like, why can't you do that sort of thing again? Why have you never ever replicated that feeling again? And the sequels are like the same,

[00:40:40] but they didn't make me feel the way that the matrix did. And everything you've made since then feels like it's running as far away from the matrix as possible. I guess so. It's very, we've talked about this. Listen back to our episodes.

[00:40:54] And of course over that same period of time there is two transitions. There is a shifting identity for both of them. You know, it's all this stuff that ends up of course informing the text of the film. But like, you know, Cloud Atlas and we've talked about this,

[00:41:08] Cloud Atlas and Jupiter Ascending are both about, you know, humankind being used as like food or energy, which is what the matrix is about. Right. You know, every, every version, like they do consciousness shifting and consciousness shifting. Like, and Lana talks so much about like, you know,

[00:41:28] how the movies are kind of about love conquering all right. Like all, you know, that's like a thing they keep going back to. That's the thing in this movie. That's the thing in their lives, you know, they have, it's just that I don't know.

[00:41:39] Look, this movie, the Matrix Resurrections opens, you know, or like the first act of this movie is about partly about people interrogating. Like, well, what is it people liked about the matrix? What is, what is it we should be delivering with a new matrix? Like what,

[00:41:52] what do people want out of the matrix? What did people want at the time? What has changed? Uh, and it's very funny and to me inspiring and interesting to see the movie do that, I guess to some people it's, it's annoying. Obviously it's very,

[00:42:07] this is the last thing I want to set up is that, uh, by all accounts, it may be starting five years after revolutions. Every year Warner brothers circles back to them and goes just by the way,

[00:42:22] if you ever wanted to make another matrix blank check, whatever you want. Right. And they keep on going, no, thank you. No, thank you. Sure. They always reject any, any talk of a fourth matrix. But it was one of those things,

[00:42:35] even with the current response to the sequels where it's just like, well, if a franchise is worth over a billion dollars, they're never going to let it lay dormant for too long because every film they made after that was still at Warner brothers. Much like Christopher Nolan.

[00:42:49] It was like, we're not going to do anything. We're not going to go above them cause we don't want to sever this relationship. Right. But after Jupiter ascending, which is just the final flop, I think for the first time, Warner brothers is like,

[00:43:02] we don't necessarily need to worry about pissing them off that much. So they keep on saying to them, would you want to make a matrix? What do you want to matrix? No, no, no.

[00:43:11] And when Zach Penn comes to them for some fucking meeting of some sort and goes, by the way, have you guys ever thought about bringing back the matrix? Warner brothers is interested for the first time. And he just goes like, I don't know. This thing's laying dormant,

[00:43:22] let the green and the jackets and the fighting there's something. Zach Penn to his credit, I suppose is very enthusiastic about the world of the matrix. He's just like, this world is so good. You can't leave it. So he wanted to do something. Right.

[00:43:37] And then there were rumors that Michael B. Jordan had basically visited Warner brothers and they were kind of like, like here's a spread of like things you could do. What's the thing that interests you? Maybe he had expressed some interest in a matrix thing,

[00:43:50] maybe playing a Morpheus type or maybe not. Like I don't know. It was never a script and it sounds like the kind of exact blue sky pitching that you watch happen in this movie where they were just like, Michael B.

[00:44:01] Jordan, he's black. Morpheus is black. Is it? He's young. Morpheus. Is he more of his grandson? I don't know. Put a pin in that. There had been so many rumors and Zach Penn had talked about, has talked about it more about like he really wanted to just

[00:44:18] expand quote unquote, expand the universe. I'm not going to remake, I'm not going to reboot. I leave neon Trinity dead. It just feels like this is a universe in which there are other stories worth telling. He loved, he worked on ready player one, a good movie. Um,

[00:44:32] I, I'm not a huge fan of Zach Penn. No offense. Uh, me neither. Um, I'm also not a huge fan of right player one. Well, ready player one is great. Uh, but he has certainly worked on movies that I like. Like, you know, he,

[00:44:42] he has a story you can see career working on superhero movies. A lot of the X-Men movies, he wrote the first draft for the Avengers which was supposedly thrown in the garbage. He wrote, you know, he's written a zillion. He said like ready player one,

[00:44:55] that's a movie that's set in a very matrixy world is set in a virtual world. Like I love that. That's the moment when this starts getting some traction. Sure. But then it doesn't happen because what happened was Warner brothers went

[00:45:06] to fucking Lana, which they did their annually. I think both, right. They went to both of them. They did their annual check in. They go, Hey, it's that time of the year. Yeah, exactly. This is the last offer because otherwise we're going to go ahead with this guy.

[00:45:21] I mean, I don't look, this is all rumor and conjecture. I don't think it was, it was entire. It was also like, can we have your blessing? Cause they needed, or they really wanted her blessing, their blessing, whatever, you know,

[00:45:34] at least someone to be like one of the Wachowskis to be like, we don't want to do any more matrixes, but Hey, yeah, there's a world for people to plan if they want to. And they explicitly did not want to do that.

[00:45:47] Both of them give their blessing to a different project. But rumor and conjecture, a thing that you and I heard directly, not from people who were in the room, but was that, you know, it was sort of the final check-in of like, if you want to do it,

[00:46:05] we let you do it. Otherwise, can we get your blessing to do other things? At this period of time, right? Uh, Lily had transitioned, which happened years after Lana. Yeah. Uh, and when she transitions and comes out publicly about that,

[00:46:19] she also steps away from Sense8. She's not really involved. She's not involved at all in Sense8. Right. And even season one was far more Lana than Lily by most accounts. Um, they had a big facility. They had the production company. They shut it down.

[00:46:37] They sell the facility. Yeah. There's sort of, like you said, there was kind of the rumor of like, are they just done? Are they done making, was there falling out with them? Movies, whatever. Are they going to do separate things? Who knows?

[00:46:49] Yeah. Um, they circle back to the two of them. In the year leading up to that, both of their parents die. Ron and Lynn Wachowski, who this movie is dedicated to. Uh, and they lose a close friend. A close friend of Lana's died. Yeah. Um, yes.

[00:47:07] Lana said that in her grief, being inconsolable and being in this position where it's like, who would I want to talk to about my grief? The three people who just died. I don't know who to turn to. I don't know how to process this. This is so overwhelming.

[00:47:21] She started thinking about Neo and Trinity a lot. Yes. That the idea of having Neo and Trinity back was a great comfort. She said this in, you know, Lana doesn't give a lot of interviews, but she has said that in, uh, in,

[00:47:34] in whatever interviews she's given or whatever, you know, speech they did at that, uh, Berlin international writers conference or whatever it's called that I'll make sure we tweet out that I sent him because I think it's

[00:47:44] very revealing in a lot of ways. But, but I think it literally just started. I started thinking about these characters as a comfort. I wanted to spend time with them in my mind. The idea of having them alive again, because obviously spoiler alert,

[00:47:57] the end of revolutions, they die dead. But I even think before it congealing into an actual story pitch. Well, she says she had the story immediately, but I don't know. Yeah. It was just that in her mind,

[00:48:11] these characters come to her and then the story comes to her. But I think a lot of this movie is about the solace of characters we love, right? It's like, because it is interrogating. I think people think I,

[00:48:28] once again, understanding all the reasons that people could dislike this movie. But a thing I push back on is the notion I see in some places that this movie is a cynical exercise and that this movie is arguing that it doesn't need to exist.

[00:48:42] I think this movie is interrogating its reasons for existing. And it's having some fun with the idea in culture that these things all need to be rebooted or re revived or whatever. But I think it is a very earnest, passionate film about like, you know,

[00:48:59] the machines have rebuilt these two fucking dead characters and characters that weren't just dead, but were like decimated, blinded rebar through the chest. All this shit. And you have these two machines being like, we're going to rebuild them and make them even prettier than they were before.

[00:49:14] Right. And let them age, but only like a sexy amount of age. Relative to how much time has passed in the film. And to some degree that's like the cynical thing. And we've complained about this a lot in different movies,

[00:49:26] sequels where it's like the first movie and so perfectly this character had good closure. They evolved to this point. And then the sequel kind of resets them or revives them in a way that is depressing where you're just like, let them have their peace. Right.

[00:49:40] Let them enjoy this. Yes. It's depressing that for example, agent K gets deneuralized that RoboCop retreats back into his robot instincts. All these sorts of things. And you have this thing that feels like the sort of cynical gross exercise.

[00:49:54] These robots are bringing new and trendy back to life. They won't even let them stay dead because they need to use their love to power the universe. And I think that's a thing that makes some people go like,

[00:50:06] so they're acknowledging this is gross that they brought them back. And it's like, no, but the whole point of the movie is also that like two things can be true at the same time. It's nice to be back and they, they, at the end of the movie,

[00:50:16] they thank the analysts for giving them a second chance. Right. And Lana herself is acknowledging. I always thought it was gross to revive these characters, but in my greatest moment of grief, I found so much comfort in thinking about them and their love.

[00:50:28] Beyond that. Look, I love the original trilogy of movies. I love the ending. Yeah. I think the ending is great. The ending does end. With the Oracle saying like, I think we'll see Neo again. That's literally the last line is like, I think he'll be back someday.

[00:50:42] And it does also Trinity, you know, dies. I've always found Trinity's death in, you know, it's a very emotionally compelling, obviously. And like it's sort of plot wise has to happen because Neo has to want to die. You know,

[00:50:57] he has to accept his sacrifice and it would make less sense if Trinity is just kind of like waiting in the car being like, go figure it out with the machines and then get right back here. You know? So,

[00:51:06] but I don't think Trinity's death is like so dramatically necessary that bringing her back is some like spit in the face. Like, you know, bringing them back is fine. I think the Neo death was one that people felt more prickly about because of the

[00:51:23] whole sort of, uh, uh, Messiah arc of him that it's like he needs to have the sacrifice and bring him back. I agree with you. The size are always coming back. But the other thing that you have to acknowledge is just in the last 10, 15 years,

[00:51:47] the legacy sequel has become this fucking thing. That's sort of 20 years on your face or back. But you talk about how like legacy is this movie that's sort of the forebear of what all studio franchise thinking becomes where it's like, what if you don't reboot it? Right.

[00:52:04] You actually make a sequel that acknowledges the passage of time that is referential, updated, you have a new generation, kids and an old generation coexisting. But like, and it tries to thread the needle of like,

[00:52:16] let's make a movie for a 12 year old who's never seen Tron that will, they will enjoy. But it also has to be their dad who loved Tron will be like, Oh my God, Flynn's back. And you have to be really deep and respectful of the lore,

[00:52:28] but you also need to have it be a launching pad for a new thing. And then this is like, uh, Jason Segel Muppets, a star Wars force awakens that Ghostbusters afterlife, all these fucking things. Right. So pervasive to now, even especially, yeah, it's very pervasive to me sometimes.

[00:53:00] I'm like, why are all of my friends who really like movies talking like studio executives all of a sudden and thinking that way and having another thing, this mind all of a sudden, which I just, I find really strange because like as a,

[00:53:16] someone who just wants to be entertained and likes movies, I don't go into, uh, watching something and thinking about that. And look, throwing bricks in a glass house, right? Obviously this is what we do on the show and it's what we fucking made our bones doing.

[00:53:31] And it's the core of our friendship, David, you and I sure. But it is interesting seeing more and more. I feel like with every year, uh, the mainstream culture talking about things in terms that you and I think of

[00:53:47] where it's like the general public is very aware of studio maneuvering of IP. It is. It's much more aware, right? That's why you can make a Spiderman no way home or whatever. Right. And just make a movie that, Oh my God,

[00:53:58] the Fox rights are going to go back to Disney. So they put X-Men in there. No, no, that's true. It's true. It's crazy that people don't think of as following the film industry saying, well, the problem with the Disney star Wars movies obviously is they didn't have a

[00:54:10] Feige who was overseeing the whole series and one director like that whole into intellectualization of the business maneuvering behind the stories and the value of the stories. These are all things that she's commenting on at the same time that she's

[00:54:25] commenting on where she feels about her own career, her own life, this thing that she created that also has like many things that become so seismic, developed reputations completely out of her control. And she's reckoning with all of that too.

[00:54:41] What does the matrix mean to people 25 years later? What good has come out of it? What bad has come out of it? Why do people want to go back to that? Is that a bad impulse? Is that a weak impulse to just want to tread things?

[00:54:50] Not just the value, not just the matrix nostalgia in general, like is that a positive negative force? How do we or whatever? How is that a force in our life? Well, why can't I sit down and see this movie? Yeah. I think it's grand max everyone.

[00:55:04] It's one of those things where like there's a few critics around me who are kind of like, Ooh, David's excited. Like, you know, like, you know, everyone else is kind of like, yeah, I'm here to see. Tweets of people taking photos of your masked face. My masked face.

[00:55:16] Uh, I walk into the theater. I walked into the lobby, uh, with my dear friend, Esther Zuckerman, the great Esther Zuckerman, pastor. You were wearing all latex, correct? Uh, and I walked up to, Lace Trinidad. I walked up to a press check-in table.

[00:55:29] There's always a table where you check in. Sure. And I walk in and it's, it's Lauren shout out, Lauren, a friend of mine. And I'm like, Lauren, Michael, Lauren, Lauren, L-A-U-W-L-E-U-R. Yeah. Lauren. Oh, Lauren. Michael. Lauren. Yeah. Okay. Um, and I'm like, Hey Lauren. And she's like,

[00:55:48] Hey David. Uh, okay. I don't see you on the list, but I'll just write your name down. And I'm like, yeah. And I'm like, Lauren works for universal. I don't know what's going on here. And she's like, anything like theater 12, you know, it's in like a crappy theater,

[00:56:00] you know, like not, I assumed it wasn't playing an IMAX. And I was like, um, and I, and I walk away and I'm like, wait, Lauren, you're not matrix. Right. And she's like, sing to. Yeah. And I was like,

[00:56:10] just imagining a world where I go and sit down and I'm like, so excited for the matrix and then sing to just like, I had like, for what in my days, you run frantically from one screen to another, you miss the first two minutes,

[00:56:21] you never get over it anyway. And then I was like, okay, hunted around and eventually water brothers somewhere else. Um, I'm very nervous. I was very excited for this movie. I had heard from some people at the junket screening that it was bad. Uh-huh.

[00:56:35] And I was kind of like encouraged by that in a way where I'm like, Ooh, interesting. And you heard from some friends like some people that it was good. Like Emma had seen it. And even more specifically, I think you're going to love it, David.

[00:56:48] And I'd heard from, I talked to one person who was like, Oh yeah, it's great. You know? And then I was like, Oh yeah, you know, some people don't like it. And he was like, people don't like it. Like, people like someone who is so like into it,

[00:56:58] there was like, Oh wait, it's not going over. We're like, you know, like, but, and I was like, okay. Let's also say, I feel like I spent more time tracking fan theories on this than you did. Like I fucking joined the matrix subreddit and was reading everyone's breakdowns,

[00:57:11] what they thought the movie was going to be. You were more trying to stay pure with this. I rewatched the trailer obsessively. I was like breaking shit down. Yeah. And you and I for the last four months since that trailer came out text a lot, just going like,

[00:57:26] do you have any idea what the fuck this movie is? Like there was something thrilling to the fact. That it was so hard to piece together what this film was even going to be.

[00:57:35] Let's say compared to something like no way home where both of us went into this, like, I think I know what the basic, I think I went into no way home being pretty much know what the last act is going to be.

[00:57:44] Even though they've been trying to keep it under lock and key. And it's like, I think I can predict, I was sort of pleased by how little I knew about no way home. But anyway, uh, but I knew I could put, I could make guesses in my mind.

[00:57:54] Did he find a way home or should we not spoil it? It's actually really difficult to answer. We're not going to say he kind of doesn't, doesn't. Yeah. Anyway, um, but my big look at the trailer would be like, I don't understand how this and that and what,

[00:58:06] how does that all piece together? What is this movie? What is the story? What's the vibe? It was exciting. My big, it wasn't even a fear, but my big thought was like, this movie will probably not be too heavy on matrix lore. Be too heavy on the sequels.

[00:58:19] Sure. It might try to reset to the cultural memory of the first film. Both because right. Like not everyone is up to date with them. And because like, you know, it seems to be more emotional. Like from the very little I'm getting, like, you know,

[00:58:32] it's about Neo and Trinity and like, it's about their rebirth and like, it doesn't need to. And I had heard from one person who'd seen it, like someone else had asked him like, do I need to rewatch the sequels? And he was like, no, but we also,

[00:58:44] we know Niobe isn't it? We know Mur of Indians. I knew that. It's true. That's true. But I was still kind of like, and then, so I watched this movie that had, that somehow in my opinion is a very, uh, clever and aware take on,

[00:58:58] revivals and sort of, you know, nostalgia and bringing things back is so exciting and deep and thrilling to a matrix nerd like me and how it delves into the lore expands very much addresses the sequels and builds on them. Yeah. And like, they, you know,

[00:59:20] certainly does not try and kind of like wipe those away or whatever. Absolutely not. Which it would have been very easy for them to do. Easy to do. With this premise, very easy. And is a very kind of swoony, more sort of new late Wachowski kind of romance,

[00:59:36] you know, like love conquers all. This movie is so of a piece with their last four films. More so. Very much so. And, but not in a way where it feels like dramatically insanely different from the matrix, but it does feel different. And let's say I, I mean,

[00:59:53] not trying to intellectualize this. I'm just saying the thing. I've seen people say, and to be clear, including very good friends of mine whose opinions I respect who I've had very civil conversations with about what we do or do not like about this movie. Right? Right. Um,

[01:00:08] and a lot of them just say, and I think this is beyond valid. I'm just missing the filmmaking style of the first three matrixes. Definitely. This movie looks very different. It has a very different visual language. The action sequences, which we will talk about are very different. Right?

[01:00:25] Definitely. The vibe of it, the tone of it, all of this sort of shit is more in line with the last three Wachowski projects. I would say with Jupiter ascending to with cloud Atlas, with sense eight in particular.

[01:00:37] I think this movie is very much of a piece with sense eight. And I think sense eight being some sort of not a final form, but like, uh, Lana has talked about this and, and to speak to the difference in style, right? As you said,

[01:00:53] matrix was sold on this incredibly dense, precise, storyboarded to hell. The whole movie's figured out they're executing what's in their mind's eye with like Hitchcockian precision, right? The actors have to move within a centimeter of the timing of this and this and that sense eight,

[01:01:11] which was shot by John tall, yeah. Who shot their last two movies. He shot their half of cloud Atlas and Jupiter ascending. Speed racer was a Tattersall. Mm hmm. Uh, and before that Bill Pope, the great Bill Pope, the great Bill Pope did their first four movies.

[01:01:32] A very distinctive look. Bill Pope, he rules. He did Alita. He did Shang-Chi this year. He rules. Yeah. And he's kind of a Marvel guy and right. Did the Spider-Man movies for Sam Raimi or the sequels? Um, but they have different artistic collaborators now. Uh,

[01:01:48] Tom tickers doing the score and said, Don Davis, all this sort of shit. But she's talked about how, uh, and I think they've been moving more and more into this style since eight. They didn't do rehearsals. They didn't have blocking. Yeah.

[01:02:01] They wanted to shoot it more documentary style. They want to give actors freedom and authorship over the scenes. She wanted to be surprised by things that were happening, uh, evolve things on the day, more collaborative in that sense with performance use more natural lighting. You know,

[01:02:16] things become warmer and more glowing. Very held off the cuff. Yes. Improvisational apparently, you know, like this is what I've been hearing. Like, like what Jonathan Groff said, like she was like, you know what? Take your socks off. Yeah. I see you as a no socks guy. Like,

[01:02:33] and that was like on set as they're starting to film, like, but like no storyboard, no, no rehearsal. Emotional is how she's putting it. Like, you know, very emotion led. They don't even do blocking rehearsals. It's like actors show up, you have your thing.

[01:02:46] We haven't talked about this. I want to see what you have. And let's roll first take first glass, which for people who don't know you show up on set, everyone's drinking their coffee. The actors have their script pages.

[01:02:58] You run through the thing like eight times while a bunch of different crew people go like, maybe I'd put the mic there and the lights here and this and that.

[01:03:04] And very often you decide the next 20 shots you're going to do in order based on what the actors and the director figure out. Right? Send people away. You do your makeup. Two hours later, you come back, you do everything as it was planned, right?

[01:03:16] The evolution happens in that rehearsal process, maybe. And then it's pretty fucking locked in because now we've set up equipment here and there. This was like, let's just set this up where it's lit in a way. And this speaks to why the movie looks so different as well.

[01:03:29] Aside from the narrative reasons why it has a very different color palette is a lot of natural lighting so that actors are not locked into. Uh, you have to stand here because the lights there or we can't move the camera this way because then you'll see this equipment.

[01:03:42] We want that sort of freedom, which leads to very often you need more coverage. Yep. And that coverage is looser or, uh, the action in this movie is I think almost getting a bad rap. I don't think it's that bad. Like it's kind of, I don't know. Yeah.

[01:04:02] Like I think it's of a piece with the film. That's sort of my green take on it. But it is certainly not like the other matrix movies. Even people don't like the burly brawl in the sequels. They don't like the Smith Neo fight,

[01:04:14] but those are cutting edge sequences. Those are like, let us push everything we've got to the absolute limit. And you know, in the sequels I would say maybe they reach their limit and you can see the limits like, you know,

[01:04:27] highway chases the best sequence of the well that highway just is incredible. That totally worked. But like, you know, the Smith fights and stuff like where sometimes you're like, okay,

[01:04:35] they were 95% of the way there and now I can in this shot sort of see it looks like even for the things that don't hold nothing in this movie feels that no,

[01:04:42] even for the things that don't hold up well tech wise in those two sequences or just over conceptualized or whatever.

[01:04:48] There is a precision and a clarity of action that I think I think people are more critical of the action of this movie in a way I understand because I fall into this as well. The action is the weakest aspect of this film. Definitely. Inarguably. Yeah.

[01:05:05] And I think part of that is there's perhaps a mild indifference from Lana. That's not. Or whatever. It just, it's just not the priority anymore to make really, really like insane action or whatever. I don't know which the sequels I was watching Matrix revisited,

[01:05:20] which was the Matrix was the best selling DVD of all time and it was so successful they put out another DVD that was essentially just it was more special features. Yeah, right. There's not a lot of special features on the original disc but yeah,

[01:05:31] it's just it's like an in depth. It's like a feature length documentary about making the movie. Right. But but also them in the early stages of the sequels and it was sort of bridging. Yeah, that's excitement. Right.

[01:05:42] And so I was rewatching that and it's like all this footage they kept from the early days of developing the first Matrix but you're also seeing the earliest glimpses of them doing six months of stunt rehearsal for two and three before they started. Which is that? Keanu's 57.

[01:05:57] You know he does the John wicks. So it's not like he's not doing that kind of shit. It's a different type of action but it 100% it's not martial and he can't right he can't do like the shit they did and you can rebuild. Yeah.

[01:06:10] So it's like a different type of action. Right. Yeah. And then like I'll go a beer he has this incredible PC re posted talking to Chad Stahelski who makes the John wicks who is Keanu stunt double who plays Chad in this handsome chat. Um, he's credited as handsome.

[01:06:27] Yes, and he's a handsome guy. Yeah. Who taught talking about like how unusual it was at the time for Hollywood movie to have individual combat like as the centerpiece of your action. Like, you know, like it was not like a hand right sequence like fighters in that way.

[01:06:44] No, I mean, because that's not their vibe. Right. And so like, but the work they had to fucking do like to get all that. That's what you watch this revisited thing.

[01:06:53] It is crazy when you realize how much work they did for the first movie and for the sequels. It may be even doubled. Right. Um, so not excusing on something, but like things I think people should understand about how this movie ends up the way it does. Right.

[01:07:09] The actors are older. They don't have a ping, uh, who choreographed the first three films working on this. Um, who knows if they tried to hire him and he said no or they didn't even reach out.

[01:07:23] It feels to me like just she didn't want to make as much of a martial arts movie. That's just not what this movie is. Right. I also think this is the first film we've seen her do without Lily. Uh,

[01:07:34] and Lily was less involved in Sense8 and not involved at all in season two. And, uh, this is very much of a piece of Sense8 and it's like some of those things that people are missing from the visual dynamic of this movie might have been more Lily things.

[01:07:48] I don't know. That's pure conjecture on my part, but it's a different DP, John Toll, who then they filmed like six weeks, two months of this movie in San Francisco. A lot of the exterior stuff, like the building shit at the beginning of the end of the movie,

[01:08:03] uh, the simulante shit, whatever. And then COVID hits and they shut down for like nine months. Yeah. Lana's like, we might never finish this movie. I might just abandon it. Right. Uh, they come back. John Toll is not available.

[01:08:18] So the camera operator who had worked with them on their last four or five films, but also, uh, Danielle, mess, regular Ridley Scott collaborator, an incredible steadicam operator, a camera operator becomes the DMS of the movie. Massa Jessie. So that's like another evolution in, yeah. Right.

[01:08:36] And they're filming the film under difficult circumstances at a time where they weren't sure if they were going to be able to film it again. It's very hard to do those sorts of, uh, action sequences and stunt rehearsals and all that sort of shit. It's just,

[01:08:48] this is the film we have, right? Yeah. I'm saying it's not trying to impress you with the Kung Fu or the cutting edge effects, uh, visual language of the fight sequences. I think it is understandable to be aggressively frustrated with the fact that

[01:09:04] the movie isn't delivering on that level. I think because other action has gotten so muddy, we're lacking the sort of tactility of a matrix fight, even when it was CGI augmented, or at least the clarity, the visual precision of it that people were like, fuck yes,

[01:09:21] here we go. Lana's coming back. She's going to school everyone. She's going to show them how it's done. So when a new matrix comes out and you're like, fuck, she kind of delivered better on that one front with Bill Pope than matrix did.

[01:09:35] I think that bums people out, which makes sense. Whatever, man, that's fine. Makes sense. The action is, but my defense of the action is it's maybe is what I said. It's kind of of a piece. Yeah, I agree. I don't know. You know, I don't,

[01:09:47] I don't think it's like completely insane. It's like you, you fall into this territory with this film. It's sort of, we talked about this with a total recall when we did our Hovind series years ago of like, Oh,

[01:09:58] that there's a way in which that movie is critic proof because anything that's shitty or nonsensical in it, you can go, well, it's all in his head. It doesn't make any fucking sense. Right. And in the same way, because this movie is so self-referential about its own existence,

[01:10:10] you can go like, well, it's like the point is it's like the way modern reboots are right. Which I think part of the, when people say the, like, are you taking crazy pills? How can you think this thing is good? They go like,

[01:10:24] are you just excusing everything that's bad in this movie by saying no, but it's supposed to be bad on purpose, which we're not saying. I'm not, I'm not. People can think whatever they want about this. People can think whatever they want. That's the biggest part.

[01:10:34] The action works for me fine, but it's not incredible. The action is just, it's just bugs has some good action. There's some fun stuff. Bugs has some really great stuff. The opening sequence is the best, which is the thing that's most directly emulating the style of the original

[01:10:47] matrix. Right. I, I think the Smith bathroom fights pretty decent in terms of hand to hand combat. But it's all, you know, it's more piecemeal. It's not reinventing the wheel. Cover it. Really. What I'm trying to say is that those,

[01:11:00] all three really did kind of reinvent the wheel at the time. The sequels may be a little less so, but they really were innovative in ways that people remember and don't remember. And she's maybe focusing on the other three wheels now. Hey man, the matrix resurrection.

[01:11:13] So let's talk about it. How long have you been going? About yeah, over an hour. Okay. We got to talk about the movie. Like, like scene by scene. The code cold open up. The movie is, of course I said the code open for a reason.

[01:11:27] It's those green letters, the rainfall, right? Yeah. It's the same as ever Warner brothers village road show, you know, no, you know, the theme, you remember the code dropping into matrix resurrections comes up much like a, you know, corpse being revived, right? Like, uh,

[01:11:45] something rising from the grave is the first line of this movie. Literally this feels familiar. Yeah. And it's, it's, you know, we're seeing a call being traded. It's like, it's, it's how you open. It's a restaging of the Trinity scene.

[01:11:58] And then we get the reveal of this isn't Trinity. Who is this? Right? So you've got this great character whose name is bugs like the bunny. I mean, kind of the audience surrogate of the movie. Yes. Uh, especially in the first chunk. Okay.

[01:12:11] By just getting your Sam Flynn, right? Someone, someone who's a fan of the matrix, your Walter meta text truly like, you know, is looking for Neo is sort of reveres him, blah, blah, blah. Played by Jessica Henwick,

[01:12:25] which just be clear by the three examples I just cited is already its own trope. Now it really has become such a trope. Um, and this character is both fulfilling that and commenting on it at the same time. Do you like Jessica Henwick? I look, Forky was like,

[01:12:40] who I know this person else like you watch every episode of iron fist. You mean you didn't even like it and you watched it because she was in that. I never watched iron fist. I didn't either. I remember the take being like, she's the good one. Right.

[01:12:52] She should be like, you know, she was calling wing, right? She was, uh, she was a X-Wing pilot and force awakens. Yeah. But she's not in the sequels. Uh, cause they didn't communicate to Ryan Johnson that she was still alive. He thought she had died. Right. And, uh,

[01:13:05] she's in fact in knives out too, which is funny. Um, and she was on the rocks, which I thought she was very good. That's the first time she stood out to me. You know,

[01:13:13] that is a movie that I saw and I couldn't really tell you that she plays the woman. No, I know. I know who she plays. There's only five characters by default. And she has like a really good scene at the end of the movie. And I was like,

[01:13:24] I guess this person, this person kind of stands out. And I looked up and I was like, Oh, this is that action lady that everyone likes. She's very, that lady that everyone said was good on iron fist who keeps on ending up on casting wishlist.

[01:13:34] She was also Nim. She was numerous sand in game of Thrones. She was one of the sand snakes. And those characters are big in the books and were maybe the most sort of egregiously botched element of the show.

[01:13:47] They had this sort of vibe in the show where the show that you could tell they were kind of like, yeah, we have to do them to some extent, but sure. No, they're important, but we really don't care. Like,

[01:13:58] so they would just kind of show up and be like, we are sexy warriors. See you later. You know? And then they all like die horribly. It felt very, it's she's in this zone where it's like, she keeps on being like failed parts of nerd franchises. Everyone's like,

[01:14:11] but she's good. There has to be the right Jessica Henwick thing at some point. She's now said, they wanted her, I believe to play the sister in Shang Chi. They did. She was the first one. This both scripts are under lock and key and secret.

[01:14:24] And both projects went, if you audition for one, you can't do the other. You could screen test for one or the other. She picked this. But if you take the other, you're out of consideration and you're not even guaranteed the job. She picked this. Um,

[01:14:36] because I think she's, she's well, whatever. She's perfect for this movie. She was. And here are things I like about her. Her name is, you like that. She's called bugs after the bunny. Yes. You like that?

[01:14:47] Like the things you use to listen to people and also like the bunny. That's what she has in line like that. There's also the scene where Neo wakes up in the real world for the first time in this movie and he's being operated on in the slab.

[01:14:58] And she goes, what's up doc to the doctor. Great. 1 million comedy points. Um, I'm a big fan of bugs is fashion. I think the pants and the opening sequence rule glasses. Do you like her glasses? Right. There's the line in the middle,

[01:15:14] like of the bridge of the arms that extends in front of the lenses. Totally. Yeah. Great. I would say one of the standout, uh, characters as far as fashion. And this is a,

[01:15:26] another big thing is that I think part of what people were hoping for in a return to the matrix was like, man, the matrix is so fucking cool. These people are so steely and bad-ass and unflappable and sexy and confident. And bugs is a lot more, uh, emotional,

[01:15:47] open childlike vulnerable than matrix characters we've seen before. That's true. Bugs is yes. Is it's true. Is it different? And she kind of acknowledges that. And in this early scene, she sort of also acknowledges like jokely, like the silliness of the binary choice of the pills,

[01:16:04] which we'll get into already. This deflated shit. She's not like Trinity where Trinity is like bucking an icicle, like so cool. And like, it's not that Carrie Ann Moss doesn't play the vulnerability. Like she's afraid of the agency, you know, but still like,

[01:16:19] she's just like the most badass and bugs is jokier and they're not jokey in a way that not bothered me at all. Yeah, exactly. I don't think this really ever ventured into they fly now territory. You know,

[01:16:35] like I saw some complaints with some of the dialogue and I was sort of like, maybe there's a moment or two where it gets cutesy. But anyway. Look, I, and I will talk around the spoilers here for this other movie that we're not talking about today.

[01:16:46] But you and I were, we're text exchanging after no way home and complaining about the fact that they, they comedically deflate some of the legacy characters they bring back in a way that is very of a piece with the MCU and their sense of humor, which is,

[01:17:04] we're going to make the joke about the thing before you can. Sure. Right. Right. We're going to deflate it. This thing that Marvel's weaponized developed through Downey Jr's improvs and Favreau and Whedon and now like perfected to a point is like,

[01:17:15] we're doing the mad magazine parody of ourselves while also doing the real movie. So you can't say that we're not in on the joke and it feels very defensive. And it is a thing that even if I laugh at the joke when it happens five seconds later,

[01:17:27] very often I go bad taste in my mouth. You sold out the integrity a little bit. Sure. Whereas I feel like the comedic deflations that this movie does through to like Morpheus going like blah, blah, blah and things like that. That's true. That's it. Yeah. I don't,

[01:17:42] I don't think to me do not read as like insulting or derivative derogatory towards the original movies and the fans experiences of them. I think it's more talking about the process of things getting repeated over and over and over again.

[01:17:56] It's sort of like it deepens it for me. How do you possibly repeat something that is so painted into people's brains without it feeling silly anyway? Bugs is that's why I love her watching this and going, this is wrong.

[01:18:10] That's seen a bunch of times essentially what looks like a kind of like fan made version of the matrix and your brain's breaking. You're like, this is basically it, but the actors are different and like there's something a little off. Why is it a different actor?

[01:18:23] Are they trying to make me think this is the same person? And she's saying, why would they use old code? Like, and you're like, why is she, she's seen this multiple times. Like the logic of it is so confusing. And then, uh, what's this character's name?

[01:18:35] Who's like the new, uh, what's his name? Seek. His name is Sequoia. They call him seek. Uh, they call him seek, which sort of sounds like Zeke, but it's seek. Seq. Sure. That's why I've done Toby on women. Mary, uh, season two, the replacement for Amal Abdi.

[01:18:50] I mean, damn. Yeah. Right. And he's KFS right in, in sense eight. But he is like so much fun, right? He's physically showing operator space, but because of the way the matrix has evolved, right. Then he's not just on the phone.

[01:19:02] He can like digitally sort of video conference improvement rules. I think it's so cool. I love her is finally he's in the space. I know I love the original movies, but it is amazing when you watch them, like how,

[01:19:15] how much of the footage in those sequences are cutting to either Marcus Chong or in a chair looking at screens going like, Holy shit. What are you okay? You know, like, there's a lot of, there's a lot of, there's a lot of, there's a lot of,

[01:19:28] are you okay? You know, he's doing it. It's, it's kind of helpful to just sort of happen there. It helps. Oh man. Um, yeah, he's there. It's uh, it's cool and it's fun, but, but this is like,

[01:19:37] we are in your impact to the future part two territory where you're like, we're watching characters, watch the first movie and comment on it and try to change it or exist around it. Um, so we are in a modal is what we learn. They mentioned this.

[01:19:51] You must have. Is this the first time you pop a boner when they say the word modal to be gross? No, but it is. This is like some fucking Seraph is a login screen shit that look. Absolutely. I was very excited doing computer logic, right?

[01:20:05] The sort of computer logic. Yeah. So we're in a modal, which as far as I know in programming is really just a term for like a window in a window. Like it's just like a sort of program in a program, but they specifically have it mean here.

[01:20:17] Like this is like a training sim for programs. It's like a demo, right? It's like something where it has very limited uh, parameters. It's really, it seems to be sort of like a city block. Yeah. It's basically the first scene of the matrix,

[01:20:32] although it's a little off and you have a Trinity and you have some agents and you have some cops. All the agents we've seen have always been incredibly, uh, patrician looking. Sure. Right, right. Clean cut white dudes is Yahya Abdul Mateen the second who we know in this

[01:20:48] movie is not going to be just playing an agent. Right. And you're just like, agents don't look like sure. They're always white. They always have the hair split to the side. What if I didn't know that he was like, say I'm walking in blind. Sure.

[01:21:01] I might see that and be like, sure, there could be a black agent who cares. Right? Like, you know, of course he could like 20 years on his performance is already different. His energy is different as he walks in. Doing agent Smith, even when he's saying the line, yes,

[01:21:14] but there is something sort of arch about it and you're like, different than the arch that is part of the de rigueur style. I am locked in. I am watching this and I'm like, absolutely. I know what's going on. And you know,

[01:21:25] I watched this with my wife last night on HBO and she was like, what, what the fuck is going on? I also feel like so much of the marketing, the marketing kind of centered the Morpheus of it all more than the bugs of it all.

[01:21:39] Where bugs is kind of more key to the movie. Because he's got the aesthetic that's very recognizable. He's sort of dressed like Morpheus. And he's this like new fucking rising star. The dude fucking holes. I love him. But, um,

[01:21:51] it's funny that he has this candy man in the same year. Yeah. Which are sort of like, is he replacing the guy or is he playing a different version of the guy? That's true. Um, and he also was Dr. Manhattan, of course, uh,

[01:22:03] where it's almost a similar thing where it's like, is he or is he the same character? Is he a simulation or simulacrum? Uh, which is one of the many things this film is dealing with. But, um, the mystery of the Morpheus has this fit in.

[01:22:15] Why isn't it Lawrence Fishburne? Why is it a younger guy? Is that just some in joke about the fact that they want to do the Michael B. Jordan movie? What is this? The film like reveals its hand, like six minutes in. She gets in the room with him.

[01:22:26] That is now they're in the set as if you're on a Warner brothers studio. First he pops her into the key call back to my boy. I came out. I turned to Ben. I'm a maker. That's a lot of makers. Sorry. Sorry. Spread master. I got,

[01:22:39] I got a shout out at one point on the blank dough text or with the dough boys. I think Mitch was talking about the reloaded or something or someone brought up the key maker. Mitch did this thing where he was like, I'm watching matrix reloaded right now.

[01:22:51] I actually like this. I think it's pretty good. Right. You were like, Mitch, do you know what you're saying to me? Right. I was like, don't get me started. I mean, I wasn't about, I was just like, do you guys like this?

[01:23:00] And then there was just sort of some question about the key makers. Basically a root kit. I just sort of texted that. Right. And then like 20 minutes later, wire was like crazy how he just said this as if anyone would know what he's talking about.

[01:23:14] You love to see that. Yeah. He goes into the, the, the, whatever locksmith, you know, it's empty and he takes her. Into first a white card or with doors, which we know in the matrix is basically like programming represented. Like it's sort of like liminal state.

[01:23:31] It's like it's C right. Colon dash. Like it's just sort of like the, it's just sort of like, David, it's good to hear you saying this shit again. It's just the, the, it's the desktop. It's the, it's from where he can go anywhere else and they go into,

[01:23:43] yes, this set that is Thomas Anderson's room, right? His shitty studio apartment. Like it's part of the line queue for a matrix ride. It was like a back lot tour. He's got his tag, his work tag from MediCortex. And she calls it out. She's like, this is,

[01:23:57] this is the room. Right? This is where Neo is like born. Right. And she's like, what's your fucking deal? Something weird is going on. And she explains that she, when she was a blue pill, her moment of awakening was she was being a window washer.

[01:24:12] I guess that was her job. And she saw Neo jumping off a building. Now he was not in the form of Neo, but she made connection with him and she saw the real thing. He's jumping. She writes, sees his true form. She sees Neo. Now,

[01:24:23] do you know this story about Lana? I don't. What story? I believe it was when she did, it was at the glad awards or something like that. When she won some trailblazer like career award,

[01:24:33] it was one of the first times she sort of publicly spoke post transition because she had always been very secretive about her private life and there've been rumors about her for a long time.

[01:24:41] And she did this very emotional speech about why she felt like I need to come forward from my community to create an example for other kids who were like me. Right. And dealing with this sort of gender dysphoria and all of that.

[01:24:51] And she said that when she was a very young child, uh, she was suicidal. She had an experience where she was suicidal when she was about the age of 12 and she had a plan to, I believe, jump off a building. And when she was walking to do that,

[01:25:03] she saw an old man and he locked eyes with her and they stood there in silence looking at each other for like 15 seconds and something in that exchange stopped her from doing it. And so that,

[01:25:12] I don't know if this guy could read what was going on with me or not. And he would never think about it, but that man saved my life. Right. And it's literally the thing she's replicating here, which is fascinating because of course the idea is, I, you know,

[01:25:25] I talked to just the idea of being seen in that moment keeps you alive. But also it's what jolts her out of her reverie. Yes. But, um, and by the way, Lana's talked about,

[01:25:35] I think one of the things that sort of triggered that suicide was that when she was at school and they would like divide people into lines of boys and girls that she would feel instinctually drawn to go to the girl's line and then people

[01:25:45] would call her out on it. And then this is all part of the, the thing. Yeah. She's, she sees him jump, but of course he doesn't jump. Like this is the thing that she also perceived. He tries to jump,

[01:25:58] but the program just freezes and he is just reset back to wherever they want him. And, right. Uh, I feel like people, you know, cause jumping off a building is very crucial in the matrix. It is how you prove you have kind of woken up to the matrix.

[01:26:13] You know, like that's a jump. We jumped off and he jumps and he falls sort of like he's not quite there yet. But anyway, and this movie is all about the fucking jump. A lot of jump. It builds to, we're going to actually take the lead.

[01:26:26] So that's bugs. And Morpheus is thing I guess is he will, he lives in he bugs is talking about her awakening from the matrix. Correct. He doesn't even live in the matrix. He lives in this little box, but he like talks about like,

[01:26:36] I also realized like I live in a computer program. Right. I have my mirror moment, right? But I'm a program. I understand that I'm a program. I've been positioned as an agent, but I see that my true destiny is I am more.

[01:26:50] I'm Morpheus and I have to find Neo, which is sort of basically like his core programming of I'm Morpheus and Morpheus wants to find new. This movie is going does so fucking hard. You're telling me that Morpheus is now a computer program who was an agent who

[01:27:02] recognizes I am the second coming of the guy who recognizes the second coming of the Messiah. And to be clear, what's happening is that Neo who knows in some way that he's still stuck in a matrix is making a Morpheus to get him out. Cause he knows like,

[01:27:19] well that's how I get out of the matrix. Morpheus finds me. Right. So when we, if I make a Morpheus program one, yeah, he will come find me like, you know, and it's, you know, it's half delusion.

[01:27:31] But it's not clear either because I want to say in my first viewing, I at this point up into the movie have no idea what is going on. I don't know. I'm like, sort of shocking cold open things that movies always do with the like,

[01:27:46] we'll catch up later. But here, you know, yeah, here's some action. I cannot parse what's happening because she is visiting the matrix, but then a program in the matrix and that she's not, she's in like a program inside the matrix. Yeah. So once again,

[01:28:01] the second primary character we meet has three identities upended within the span of one minute of dialogue where he goes, I'm a program and an agent and Morpheus. And she gives him the red and blue pill. She does the sort of, you know, what do you want?

[01:28:16] Can I sidebar for one second to bring up Ben's confusion? This is an on topic sidebar. Go ahead. There's the thing I find very interesting about the first matrix and it's just sort of impeccable undeniable power, right? That like 30 minutes into this movie where the first matrix,

[01:28:34] you forget how long it takes before they drop. Yeah. It's a, it's a pretty slow build to right. You are a battery, right? Yeah. It took about half an hour before Romley turned to me and gave me the look and was like, am I? And I was like,

[01:28:47] you're not supposed to understand anything yet. Sure. And it's a very hard trick to pull off, to watch a movie like that where you're engrossed and you're on board despite the fact that you have no idea what the fuck is going on.

[01:28:58] And the film takes about 45 minutes to explain itself to you. This movie is doing the opposite, which is explaining a lot to you upfront and hoping you will eventually be able to process it and put it together. Yeah, right. That's true. It does.

[01:29:11] And I am eagerly like cramming the info, giving me into my mouth. But some people are maybe like, well, I don't know. I think it's very understandable to be sort of like, yeah. What's the difference between this and the matrix?

[01:29:23] What's the difference between this matrix and old matrix? I can't see the walls. I can't see the parameters. I don't fucking blue pill. That's why. Well, I do take a blue pill every day. So after this, and right to me, but I'm like, Oh,

[01:29:38] I'm very intrigued where I'm like, wait. Oh, you know, she gives the pills and he there's this again, deflation of the pills are who fucking gives a shit. The choice is an illusion. Well, I think it's important and interesting that Lana Wachowski wants to say like

[01:29:52] perhaps a binary choice is a bit simplistic. I think it's funny on multiple levels that she's talking about that. Red pillows and ideas become this thing. Right. Yeah. That we're getting to one of many movies talking about. Yeah. But uh, but as she says, like, look,

[01:30:06] when you're getting offered the pills, you probably already know what you want. You know, like, you know, that at that point it's really like, you know, what's Neo going to do? Be like, yeah, I do feel like something's really wrong with the world and I don't understand my

[01:30:17] place in it, but you know what? Like I'm not, I'm not going to sign any more documents here. I'm going to go, I know we're about halfway in the movie, but I'm good. It just plays out. It's kind of boring, whatever. So 10 minutes in,

[01:30:31] we finally get to Thomas Anderson. Right. So then we've had this one glimpse of Keanu in a Bugs's memory. Now we're with Thomas Anderson. The first act of the movie is him. He is a computer programmer, computer game programmer. He's in an office filled with matrix memorabilia.

[01:30:46] He literally has the McFarlane action figures, mass produced. Squids, Trinity. The statue of the Smith getting punched, which I think was a crew gift that everyone had from the sequels. He's got a game of the year award too. He's got, you know, you're like, Oh, okay.

[01:31:02] Neo's a fucking nerd. Right. He's a Silicon Valley guy. He's living in San Francisco. Beautiful. But he's in an office that's obsessed with his past. Sure. And he is the cultural shadow of the one thing he created. He's working on a new game called binary,

[01:31:16] but he is a famous programmer of a trilogy of games called the matrix. And he feels like one of these guys. Uh, I, I, I don't know if I can say a specific example where it's like, here's someone who was so foundational to the creative firmament of this

[01:31:32] company or this property or whatever it is, but they may be kind of lost it and they haven't been able to replicate it. And we keep them on payroll a out of respect and be out of the hope of what if they fucking figured it out again,

[01:31:43] delivered another home run. Right. Right. But he's just sort of noodling on shit. Keanu, I feel like is in this movie kind of playing sad Keanu meme, right? Because John wick has become this new gravitas version of Keanu.

[01:31:57] There's that period that everyone forgets about between like matrix sequels and John wick when he starts to dip out where like his prominent cultural role was a photo of him sitting on a bench, eating a sandwich and being like, what the fuck is up with this guy?

[01:32:12] He looks sad, sad Keanu. Right. He says he was just hungry. He looks like a bum. Yeah. He looks kind of like a bum. Yeah. But, but also Keanu, uh, like, um, had horribly tragic things happen to him in his life at that period of time. What?

[01:32:26] Not then. What, what, what happened then? I mean, his girlfriend died a long time ago. That was way before. It was after the matrix sequels. Well, yeah, but no, that, that photo is not that old. The sad Keanu photo. I'm saying in the 15 year span. Okay, sure.

[01:32:40] But he's hungry. I don't want to project too much on that photo because he has been very anti projecting on that photo. I'm not projecting on the photo. I'm just saying. I was hungry. I'm just saying there is a tragicness to Keanu that I think this film is

[01:32:53] foregrounding. Right? He's playing very broken. I really like his performance. His performance in this film is excellent. I think it's excellent. I say, especially in the first chunk where he has the most acting to do and then he's more, you know,

[01:33:08] I say this as someone who really feels like he has lost a substantial amount of identity in the last two years in isolation on top of mental stability and all of that. This performance really, really fucking resonated with me, his sort of unmoored quality.

[01:33:23] And I do think you talk about the awakening aspect of the matrix, right? Like the, this world feels wrong. See the strings, whatever. Right. But so much of that and it's tied to the Wachowskis and their own journey of discovery and whatever is like, I feel wrong.

[01:33:39] I recognize that things around me feel weird, but it's like there's a form I should be taking that I'm not yet. He's just playing it not too like dramatically. I get like, there's a little bit of humor to what he's doing. He's right.

[01:33:53] Got that thing where he's sort of like overly medicated and he's sort of in a bubble and a little foggy fog. Yeah. And like everyone around him in the movie treats him like a child cause they're

[01:34:05] worried a little bit treating like egg Shelly try to kill himself again, but also kind of like is dialed to a hundred. It's very crucial in this movie that the first act of the movie is, and you really notice it on rewatch, very loud. Everything is loud.

[01:34:19] The dialogue, you know, people are chattering all the time. Energy of performance. The energy of performance is very up. But also there's a lot of music. There's a lot of flashing lights, you know, a lot of colors. She, which has,

[01:34:30] he really wants that moment where Niobe is like, do you remember this? And it's quiet to really hit and it really works in the theater. In my opinion, so on a green, just really silence in a theater is so powerful because everyone's kind of like,

[01:34:44] is she going to say something, you know, like everyone's kind of like hanging to see what she's going to do. But, but when people are disappointed that the movie doesn't look like the matrix doesn't have the green tint, the precision, all that sort of stuff, which is fair.

[01:34:56] It's a fucking rad aesthetic. I understand wanting to see that again. It's also part of the text of this film that it's like the matrix has changed. Our notion of what computers could do and artificial intelligence and virtual reality and all that stuff used to be more clinical,

[01:35:10] right? It used to be a, the internet used to be a fricking database. Right. In 1999 when the matrix is made, the internet is like a resource more than anything. Like to the extent that it has discourse, it's so tiny and it's like little tiny

[01:35:25] communities of people who know how to be all these concepts are banal now. And so much of technology is trying to figure out ways to virtually replicate banalities in, in so many ways, right? You look at the fucking Zuckerberg metaverse video and it's like what he's

[01:35:42] pitching of like metaverse, you get to hang out in a rainbow place and you can talk to each other. It's a way to virtually have a conversation through virtual avatars. It's no longer this sort of like bad-ass fucking thing.

[01:35:55] The world of the first 45 minutes of this movie is very metaverse, right? It's like it's, but it's very, I really just think she's really trying to just talk about how it feels to be online right now, which is what,

[01:36:07] what obviously the big analyst monologue is about as well. Like brands having casual Twitter accounts where they're like, they're like, go off, right. You put your whole bussy into this, right? That's like the fucking, you know, Jude character feels like that. Right. All these Jude,

[01:36:24] who is played by, I want to, cause I didn't know that actor. Um, Andrew Lewis Caldwell. Okay. Do you know him? No, he was, you know, he's, he's doing what the movie wants, obviously, which is this. So I guess he's mostly, he's on an eye zombie apparently, okay.

[01:36:37] You know, but he's like big, he's really big. And he's also like kind of like a parody of not just a matrix fan, but just like a genre fan, right. Where he's just, you know, but also kind of like, Oh, I know, I know, I know too much,

[01:36:51] too much. And also kind of like this weird self-awareness comic relief character that exists today, who mostly exists to deflate shit and be like, what the fuck? Uh, exactly. Right. He sticks out. He doesn't seem real. He doesn't seem like a real fucking person. He doesn't.

[01:37:06] None of it feels quite real. I love that. It's a different type of artificiality than we're used to. You have to feel wrong in a different way. I said this in my review, but 1999, you know, it's the idea of the end of history, right? Where it's like,

[01:37:17] is it like over? Like, have you just, they're just won't, it's pre nine 11. It's sort of like, has America just kind of become what it is and we'll just kind of make money and have our jobs and nothing more is going to happen.

[01:37:31] Like we've kind of reached this peak and then of course, 9 11 happens and everything is completely different. But like there's this moment in the late nineties where that's the existential horror, right? Fight club is about that American beauty is about that. Like, you know,

[01:37:44] a lot of those movies from right around the matrix is very much about, and this is about a certain numbness. I do think the fact that this movie,

[01:37:53] its premise was born out of grief is very important because I do think this movie is about depression in a lot, a lot, a lot of ways. Whereas the first movie is sort of about identity, right? And figuring out who you're supposed to be. It's about that,

[01:38:07] but it is about existential despair, but you know, but there's, there's a numbness like this world is real. Like, there's a numbness to Neo and Tom Anderson in this movie, both in the simulation. As much as things feel wrong, it's like, I don't know,

[01:38:21] maybe I'm just dead inside now. Well, right. And he does just kind of stop. It was like, what was the fucking point of any of this? In the first movie, Neo is like, there has to be more like that's why I'm searching. Cause like this can't be it.

[01:38:31] Yeah. Right. And in this movie he's like, well, I guess it wasn't that cause they tell me that's made up. So I guess I'll just fucking, you know, and he's, I love it. He's successful. Like in the first movie, he's a little, you know, cog in a machine,

[01:38:45] right? He's just like a, he's a little, he's Dilbert. He goes to his cubicle and his boss kills the pills. Right. But no, but I'm saying it takes a shit. Oh, in this movie, he's not a cog. He's the fucking King of the world. Everyone's waiting on him.

[01:39:00] And he's just kind of like, I don't enjoy this at all. Lana Wachowski position where people are going, what's the new matrix? And it's just like, I don't know what the fuck to do with myself. He kind of gets with Joey pants. His character wants. Yeah.

[01:39:12] He that's the, yeah. A lot of people had theories on that of like, is he now like, you know, Mr. Regan? Like, is he literally what Joe, you know, Cypher was asking for? Like he got inserted in because he wants to be rich and famous.

[01:39:27] I want to be, I want to be someone important, like an actor, but not remember anything. And I don't want to, man, I want to eat. And obviously he eats a steak. I was going to say, you have a fucking steak shot. You know, they, they, it's all,

[01:39:37] I feel like it's all basically just sort of referential. It's not like supposed, but you know, like that's all right. He got white rabbit, sequent rules. I think the remix of the song, it's so fucking effective. The thing with the song is so clever where it's like,

[01:39:49] it's using the original song, but then it has those things where instead of hitting the chorus, it just kind of stops for a minute and good just sort of repeats that, you know, and the sound stopped the vocal stuff for a second. And you're just like,

[01:40:02] he's fucking stuck on a treadmill. Like he is depression. This is never an, yeah, it's, but it's a specific kind of depression where the world is loud rather than quiet. Right. Or like the world is, bright and assaultive rather than dead. Look,

[01:40:16] that is how I felt in isolation being alone, quiet in apartment and feeling like the entire world was screaming at me. Not me in particular, but the entire world was screaming, which it was in so many ways. It is very loud. The internet is loud.

[01:40:29] The state of the world is loud. And even just, there was a thing that was a recurring problem I had in the worst of lockdown. When I was not seeing anybody leaving my house, I was not really socializing outside of doing fucking live streams and podcast episodes.

[01:40:46] Otherwise I would never even speak out loud most days, right? I was sort of stuck in this rut of like this montage of what you're seeing him do the routines where it's like, how do I change up my day? I make fucking coffee, you know,

[01:40:58] I take a shit and then the repetition of the pills over and over again, I had a problem at the worst, the peak of, you know, 12 months into lockdown or whatever, where my medication I take nightly for depression, anxiety.

[01:41:13] I could never remember whether or not I had taken the pills already. Yeah. The old, did I wash my hair today or not? The old sort of, yeah, that weird feeling. Like I have it on my nightstand next to my bed.

[01:41:23] I get into bed and you'd be like, did I do it yet? Or did I just do, did I just do this? This is, this is familiar. I cannot remember if I had done it 30 seconds ago or if I was replaying a memory from the night before.

[01:41:35] Because you're just doing the same shit every day. So this movie is starting to hit me really hard at this point. Like I'm just like, fuck, this is speaking to the way I'd been feeling for the last two years.

[01:41:44] This atrophy of this character who's in a position where it's like, look, I'm in a traumatic amount of privilege. I can't say my life sucks. The whole, that's what I think is so clever. Nothing's wrong. Nothing's bad. Right.

[01:41:55] Is like everyone's fawning all over him and he's just sort of like, I feel dead inside. And everyone's like, look, if you have a next thing, come up with it. If not do whatever you want. And he keeps on noodling.

[01:42:05] You talk about how he creates the modal because he's hoping that Morpheus will come and speak to him. I also read it. I don't think these are mutually exclusive things as much like Lana being just driven in her grief to go back to those characters. He was like,

[01:42:20] I want Morpheus kicking around somewhere. Yeah. Right, right, right, right. Like those were the good old days. Like the, yeah, me and Morpheus, like that's when we were figuring stuff out. That's when there was growth, when there was progress.

[01:42:30] But even if he believes that he just created Morpheus as a fictional character, it's like, look, I probably shouldn't make a fourth game. That's like fucking with my legacy. But it'd be nice to just have a program running on my computer where I can look

[01:42:42] in the sets there and you have that opening sequence of Morpheus is there. It's, it's the memory palace of like, fuck right. This is why nostalgia exists. We talk a lot about it being a poison, especially as we're recycling the same pop culture over and over again.

[01:42:55] But there clearly is some value to it. If we use it deliberately in these things that stick to us so much that we cannot give up, there has to be power in returning to these characters. We can't just redo the same sequence over and over again.

[01:43:13] But if something has been able to last for 25 years and it's a thing you can return to that gives you joy or comfort or clarity on your own sense of existence, then is it cheap to go back to that? And I say no, if you're doing something new.

[01:43:28] At the same time, right in all this that we're talking about, there is a scene where he is summoned to talk to his boss, the money man who was played by Jonathan Groff,

[01:43:37] who is Smith and who very rich right at the start of the movie has this line of like, well, Warner brothers, our parent company is demanding we make a fourth matrix and they'll do it without us. I know you said you were done after the trilogy, right?

[01:43:53] And then like the sort of specificness of like they can do it without us. And Neo's like, I thought that wasn't possible. And he's like, well, I was, you know, you know, I've read many takes from people who tap out at that exact. Yeah. Because they're like,

[01:44:05] the movie is telling me that it shouldn't exist and that they're being forced to make this movie a gunpoint. Truly. And now I am like, yeah, where am I again? Where am I? Who is Neo? He, I knew him to have died. Yeah. Now he's back.

[01:44:21] But what is this reality? Again? I have no, I cannot figure out where the fuck I am. Right. So the movie's like very much like throwing a cold bath on you with this stuff. And like, I, whereas I was just like,

[01:44:33] that's so funny one that it's in the movie. It's fun. The Warner brothers is like, yeah, sure. Whatever. Fucking throw us under the bus. Who cares? Um, but to that, like that's like, you know, Smith, Smith. So Smith is part of Neo. I guess, you know,

[01:44:48] we have to talk. We'll talk. So complicated. And Smith is the person that people ask me the most questions about having seen the movie where they're like, I don't understand his role. And you know, but like he's Neo's bad side. He's Neo's most fatalistic, most cold eyed,

[01:45:01] most cynical side in this movie. Right. So like when he's saying that stuff, he's not saying that is the thesis of the movie, but he's certainly expressing the like, look, there's a bit of a rock and a hard place situation here.

[01:45:12] Do you want to make another matrix or do you want, you know, faceless executives to make it? Well, I think there's another thing going on, David, which is agent Smith has now been reborn in the body of a man. He's reborn in the body of the studio executive,

[01:45:29] right? The executive. I wouldn't even say studio because he's also really giving like tech bro, like, you know, right? Like he's like, whereas Smith in performance, he's a G man. Obviously he's the, you know,

[01:45:41] this guy in a suit who's supposed to look anonymous with sunglasses and now it's like, right. So shoes, no socks, kind of simpering kind of corporate speak, you know, all that personality though too. Lots of, but like, yeah. So, but like, I mean, it's, it's a, it's a,

[01:45:57] it's a, it's a personality that kind of puts you on edge for you. Like, is this guy like a total phony? Like, wait, does he care about anything? But that's performance. And I think an incredible textual. It's textually right.

[01:46:07] And you get to this point later in the movie where Smith keeps on talking about like how inextricably tied they are. Right. Right. That it, like they used to think that they were rivals and they exist in opposition to each other. And in fact,

[01:46:19] they need each other to balance out. It's like this yin and yang thing, as you said, it sort of shadow self, the use of it, all of that. That is stated literally and directly. Compare it to someone like Royalton in speed racer. Yep.

[01:46:37] Who is the evil money man saying you have to race this way. You got to do it this way. And if you don't, I'll crush you. Right. Well, you, I will Mount the forces of capital.

[01:46:46] And that is the movie they make right after getting to make two huge expensive sequels where they get away with everything. Listen to our speed race for episode, because of course that movie ends with them being like, art can triumph over commerce. Of course the movie was. Yeah.

[01:46:58] And, and she's, you know, always talked about in interviews, like one of the reasons she stepped away and it seemed like they'd maybe neither of them would ever make a movie again was like, I got so tired with the business aspect of the thing, with the executives,

[01:47:11] with answering to all these questions and all this sort of shit. She is a filmmaker who aside from her first movie has gotten to traffic in incredible budgets. Absolutely. Right. It always works on a huge scale and goes,

[01:47:25] I'm telling stories that are this expansive that I'm asking to be put in thousands of screens and all of that. And I do think this movie is reckoning with, I want, you know, I think of myself as this precious sensitive artist,

[01:47:37] but I've also chosen a medium that requires a tremendous amount of capital support and a lot of people. And I am forever beholden to these people. There's always going to be, I used to think of Smith as a binary villain.

[01:47:48] Right now I realize he's part of the balance of me getting to do the thing I want to do. Right. I just, I can think of this guy as the impediment to my creative unfiltered brilliance, but it's like, doesn't matter. It doesn't have to go in a way,

[01:48:02] never going away. You're not, you're not right. You're never going to be able to. Yeah. No, I have to learn how to create some sort of balance in a work relationship with this person. Otherwise it's not going to happen. And the changing of Smith to a creative executive,

[01:48:15] but also Smith to less of a literal villain and more of an uneasy ally is so telling. I agree with that. Now textually, yes, I do think it is the most complicated because Smith has always been the most complicated element of the matrix if you dig into it.

[01:48:32] And I guess I can get more into this in the commentaries, but like this thing I found rewatching the first movie singing a theater for the first time being able to give it more focus recently. I saw it for,

[01:48:41] I saw it in theaters in 1999 after buying a ticket to she's all that. I bought a ticket to 10 things I hate about you. And then I saw 10 things I hate about you. And I said, why would I see that gun movie? But, um, the thing I look,

[01:48:53] I knew it before, but it hit me so much harder is this idea that it's like Smith as a program is this aberration for some reason he's developing his own inner conscious thoughts and his distaste of humanity. He has a personality that should not have developed.

[01:49:09] He's not supposed to be so angry. He's like an error. Right? Um, all of that's complicated. We should acknowledge the original plan was for this to be Hugo. Well, the way this movie works, you can absolutely see the original actors playing both roles,

[01:49:25] but it doesn't really matter that much to have new actors play the roles. And it's in some ways kind of exciting. Part of me wonders if I would have preferred the version with Hugo weaving. I think what Jonathan Groff is doing is great,

[01:49:36] but I think the rush of much like seeing Thomas Anderson being like, what's going on here? Why is Neo acting like this to see Hugo weaving look different, have such a different vibe and be like, well, you know,

[01:49:48] Warner brothers like playing Hollywood asshole would have give it such a uneasy power. I love Hugo weaving and I would love to see you go weaving in this movie. It's now come out in interviews with like, um, uh,

[01:50:04] James McTeague and some of the other people who worked on the movie. Uh, Mitchell did an interview recently that, that, that was the plan as written. Cause I wasn't sure after seeing it, like was,

[01:50:15] I knew Hugo weaving was in talks and then there was a scheduling problem and then he's not in it now. I was like, was he going to play him at some state or some form? He was just going to play this.

[01:50:24] The original idea was he was going to be Smith the whole time. Yeah. He was just going to be Smith. I'm sure it'd be great. He was in a play. I think COVID really messed with it too. Yes. Anyway, he's not in it. I think Groff is fantastic.

[01:50:34] And I think as part of the 20 years on plus, you know, like let's consider the internet and the experience being online now. I think Groff is a great, Groff and Neil Patrick Harris are both great expressions of those feelings. I think they're great. Um, uh, you know,

[01:50:51] we're seeing, um, the shots of the original movie and we are hot. And I feel like especially that's what they're introducing there. I mean, they're hammering it over your head that this is Smith, right? And it's a different actor.

[01:51:05] His opening line is him saying Hugo Weaving's line intercut. They do not hide for one second that he is Smith. He is Smith to the extent that people are like, wait, is he Smith? This movie is, is there a sort of a double reverse here?

[01:51:19] Like much like the reveal. Why are they telling me so much more than I can even process right out of the game? Um, what's going on. But like, just to talk about Smith for a second, yeah. As you say in the first movie, he is the villain,

[01:51:33] but there is this sort of undercurrent of like, why is he more emotional about this and why none of the other program characters are emotional at all? Why does he has the monologue where he takes off his earpiece and he takes off the glasses, your cancer, you know?

[01:51:45] And then he's destroyed. And then the idea in the second and third movies, he's no longer an agent. He cannot move through programs. So he can't, you know, copy himself into people. Right. But he now has this new thing where he spreads like a virus. He's liberated. He's,

[01:51:57] he's his own thing. And I have always struggled so much with the idea because like the whole reason that Neo gets to pull off his grand truce at the end of revolutions is that Smith has taken over the matrix.

[01:52:10] And so Neo can go in there and deal with Smith in return. You're going to, you're going to be peaceful. We're going to stop the war. That's the deal he makes with the machine. And the idea is like Neo is the sixth one.

[01:52:22] Like it's a thing that happens over and over again. It's built in. There'll be a one he'll hit the end of the program. He'll see the architect, the architect will be like, you got to go back to the beginning. You're going to rebuild Zion, you know?

[01:52:32] And then he's always like, okay, I don't want humanity to die. So I'll do that. Right. And then instead of course, Neo picks Trinity and that's why the movie continues rather than ends. Right. Yeah. Everyone's on board with this. Right. This is, yeah. Yeah.

[01:52:46] So I guess that's like, I was always like, why is there a Smith? Is that part of it? Like, is there always going to be like a sort of villain agent in this movie or in the sequel? In the matrix. Like, you know, why,

[01:52:56] why does Smith become so powerful? And I, but here, no, you said what you want to say. And then I have my answer. And like, you know, part of it is just like, well, these movies, especially the sequels are as much about,

[01:53:06] like they are giving you hints that programs are evolving in weird ways too. It's not just that the one is behaving differently. Yeah. Programs are doing weird things. These two programs made a child for no reason. Like, you know, like, you know, there's all kinds of Smith. Yeah.

[01:53:19] He he's, he's angry and he's weird. Like, you know, he, we don't know why he behaves this way. He's a, he's a glitch too. There's all this glitchy going on. So like, that's why he's so tied to Neo, right? Like as Neo behaves unusually Smith behaves on you.

[01:53:33] He's the one of programs in a weird way. Yes. He's the aberration. And I always freaked out because I was always like, if there are many ones, why is there never, or why are we never hearing about other Smiths? But I think the idea is partly just like,

[01:53:44] well, even if that was a thing, yeah, Neo or the, sorry, the one hitting the end of the program meeting the architect, rebooting it would just solve that problem. So it wouldn't be a thing. And instead Neo not solving that problem, he proliferates and it becomes a,

[01:53:56] so here's my take, David. Yeah. And I, I, I didn't know you had all this frustration. No, it's not frustration. It's just like, David is now furiously rubber and his thighs the way that Neo does in this movie when he's talking to his therapist. Yes. Right. Well,

[01:54:12] it was those, I feel like in those sequences, like the therapist is trying to do the thing of like, yeah, you're in your real, you're like, like try to, you know, but David is truly doing those hand gestures unconsciously while talking about the Smith of it all.

[01:54:24] And this speaks to this movie as much as the first three matrixes were, and especially cause the Wachowskis barely did press didn't explain themselves, made themselves elusive, made this mythology so dense and so cool and all this shit. Right.

[01:54:39] That like you're sitting there trying to connect the pieces of like, why, why, why? And I always interpreted the Smith thing as like, well, we could just have a new agent. We could have a new villain. We could have some other program act this way.

[01:54:53] So we don't have to explain why this one is so special. But man, look at that performance. That guy given the first movie, stupid not to do that again. And so much like the fucking Sentinels reviving Trinity and Neo, it's like,

[01:55:07] I guess we have to figure out why it's still the same guy from the first movie. Yeah. Because the public wants this guy. Yeah, it's right. I mean the analysts take a certainly right.

[01:55:17] Like you could have hired anyone else to play any other weird agent who has his own power and not have to deal with the why he was to how it coincides with the first movie.

[01:55:25] But it is that thing of at some point you are somewhat beholden to the demands of not just what the people controlling the purse strings want, but what the public wants. All true. Borderline paralyzed Thomas Anderson in this movie. Textually. Yes. The way Smith puts it is like,

[01:55:42] I'm like, he's like a chain around Neo and he doesn't know either. Like Smith does not know that he is agent Smith until that moment where he sees the gun and he reawakens and he says, Mr. And you know, like that,

[01:55:53] that's the before then he is locked into this as Neo. And look, I love the movie. Yeah. And I like all its tonal goofiness. I think it was maybe a mistake to have an unbroken four minute sequence where Smith sings Fleetwood Max,

[01:56:05] the chain to Neo should have what he should have done that. What a great singer. Jonathan Groff. What's that song and frozen to out of the woods. Yeah, sure. He killed. Randios are better than people. So yeah, at the end of this first act, Neo is liberated first.

[01:56:20] There's sort of a abortive effort where Morpheus tries to do the red pill, blue pill in a bathroom. Look, I know we're focusing on the first 40 minutes a lot, but we're not, we're just, we're moving. You also have the Trinity meeting in the coffee shop. That's true.

[01:56:34] We should of course acknowledge like Trinity's there. She's called Tiffany. Yeah. It's a little joke about dot TIF files. I don't know if anyone picked up on that. Dot TIF files. Dot TIF is like, yeah, the artwork. Like, yes, that's what you, because that's what,

[01:56:45] when she says later in the movie, the analyst Tiffany, he's like, it was a private joke. Like it's a joke about, you know, TIF files. But also she says her parents were Audrey Hepburn fans. Yeah. Also just, it sounds like Trinity. There's, there's, there's TIF, Trinity, Tiffany.

[01:57:00] He knows he like, he feels connected to her, but she's this married woman who he doesn't even know what's going on. Feels it. I'm also is like playing, you know, carrying a mass is so good in this movie and she's very good at playing the kind

[01:57:12] of like half aware, half like confused. So like, I do know you. This is a genuine criticism I have of the movie and one of the few. Okay. I don't know how they solve this based on the way the story is structured.

[01:57:26] I do think is possibly the movie's detriment that she isn't in the middle hour pretty much at all because she's so fucking goodness. She's great. And the two of them together on screen is so good. It just has that feeling of just like, fuck,

[01:57:42] here are two people who clearly have a lot of respect for each other. A lot of love have spent, have been in the trenches together, have gone through so much, have aged into this kind of very easy, effortless gravitas on screen. And uh, yeah, I don't know.

[01:57:56] Just from the first scene there, I, I, I just feel a charge of putting the two of them together, which is a thing this movie is talking about, right? Is if we put these two pods next to each other, electricity, it's just like, they're like magnets.

[01:58:09] Like if you put them both together, they'll just, they're snapped together. But so you have to keep up the tension, keep that tension going. I mean, he called, he refers to it as something else, right? He has a different metaphor, but it's the same idea. Uh, right.

[01:58:20] He sings Fleetwood Mac. So he does. Ha. So now I have to remember what they're like a toss. Okay. While you're looking that up, one little thing I noticed on my rewatch, um, last night was, um, the little like moments of the reflections where you're seeing that both,

[01:58:38] you know, that Tiffany and Neil have different skin, they have different appearances, reflections on the team, which are fun. Just little, right. And those reflections in a cute little thing are played by Neo's reflection is played by Karen Moss's real husband and, uh,

[01:58:57] Tiffany Trinity's reflection is played by James McTeague, who's the first assistant directors. One was the director of V for Vendetta. Right. Um, as so, which is, you know, yes, you never get a full body shot in that kind of way.

[01:59:12] You're not doing the like heaven can wait sort of, uh, Wonder Woman 1984 thing where you cut back and forth between the two actors. It's always these sort of glimpse. Just cured. He knows he looks different. Right. You see them at little moments.

[01:59:27] And also this movie is just fucking all in on mirrors for obvious reason. It doubles down on the Alice in wonderland. That obviously right. Mirrors are crucial, but also mirrors become the transportation system in a way, fully replacing phones of the first movie. Right? They,

[01:59:42] they are no longer going to hard lines. They go through mirrors, um, portals, they call them. Which that shit's all there in the original trilogy, but this is the original trilogy. The mirror shot is, but they, it's not it. Alice stuff is there here. It's just overwhelming. Yeah.

[01:59:57] Um, but yeah, so Morpheus attempts, but you know, he's still getting used to the role. Well, the other thing is just, we've had this, uh, Christina Ricci with the best agent in Hollywood getting very high billing. I assume that stuff was cut out, but this montage of, of,

[02:00:13] as you said, like, it's very funny montage of the, them focus grouping the matrix. I want to fight. What do I like about me? Is it the action? Is it the WTF? Ness? Is it that it was so different? Is it that it was, you know, yeah.

[02:00:26] Which speaks to these things where it's like, you can't replicate these things as much as you can talk about the decision making process that went into making the first thing work. It's hard to synthesize it. I like the one guy in the group who's like,

[02:00:38] I never liked it. I thought it was shitty. Right. There's that one guy who's just like, I just want action. But, and the repeating them, them repeating the same dialogue and they're like that guy, he was wearing like the goofiest hats. Like he goes through three different outfits.

[02:00:53] Well, it's very funny. It's just so disconcerting. It's disconcerting, but I feel like it's also like, it's just the, the feeling of being, having the same conversation. So, you know, over and over year after year, day after day, whatever. Right. Like this sort of like,

[02:01:08] I don't know about a lot of which house, cause she's been in a lot of pitch meetings over like, okay, but could matrix four be like, and it's just kind of always the same. Like what do we love about the first one? Bullet time. We love,

[02:01:19] but I also think it's an internal monologue thing of like, how do I go back to them? How is there another one of these? How do we, how do we make it different?

[02:01:26] How do I need to one up bullet time or do I need to do bullet time again? Or do I have to run away from both impulses? Freeman Adjaman of course is one of the people in this boardroom. One of like eight sensei.

[02:01:36] A lot of sensei cast members in this movie. Love to see them. Yeah. Um, and of course there are also these scenes with Neil Patrick Harris as Neo's blue, uh, glasses frame wearing psychiatrist, the analyst who is very much like, look, you're just, you're not crazy,

[02:01:54] but you're projecting blah, blah, blah. You know, all that stuff. There's something to, in terms of just the difference of vibe of what this new matrix is like, that, uh, Smith and the analyst, the two main protagonists in this film are both played by, uh,

[02:02:13] openly gay men in Hollywood, uh, who are pretty traditionally handsome and have, uh, yeah. Overabundance of a Broadway experience. Uh, very much so. Are like great singers can be like very clean, all ages entertainer performers, you know? It's just,

[02:02:34] it's an interesting energy that they're bringing versus like someone like Hugo weaving. Uh, absolutely. Either we can of course can do anything. There's a softness to both of them that they both are certainly very capable of adding menace to that.

[02:02:49] This is the whole thing with Neil Patrick Harris as much as he, you know, he's, I think he's very good in this movie, like using what people don't like about him or what people find off, you know, putting about him as like a weapon, like,

[02:03:01] which I also think he does very well in gone. That's my, I mean, it's, he's a good actor. Like I, I think the movie is consciously using the fact that these are like two incredibly woke, likable progressive guys and being like,

[02:03:13] is there something too clean about these guys? Like is upsetting how cute and adorable and lovable they are. Yeah. Now I just want to say, cause I think we should keep moving along just, I mean, we only have two more hours to write. No, right. Seriously.

[02:03:26] But to speak to just my first viewing experience, let's just now say that we're, we're watching, you know, you're watching along to this movie again. And Neo is like kind of this, like, like wimpish kind of dork and he's in therapy. And I'm just like,

[02:03:41] what the fuck is going on? And now I'm like literally watching this hero, like kind of complain to his therapist. Right. It's we're 45 minutes into the movie. I, everything that's turning you off. I'm like, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. You don't like that. No, no, no, no,

[02:03:56] no. I mean, I've now come out to it because that character is really interesting and I want to get to the second part of the movie because of all the new shit that we're about to start talking. Morpheus comes to me. There's a failed, uh, you know,

[02:04:10] wake up Neo moment where right. Morpheus is just too loose. He's still getting used to it. He can't even dress properly for the matrix. He's like so freed up in the fact that he's like, I don't have to be a Smith anymore. Right. He's wearing really bright clothes.

[02:04:24] As Ben would say, he's throwing fits. Oh yeah, absolutely. Uh, right. And he's stepping out of a bathroom stall and he's trying to do Morpheus dialogue and then he's like, yeah, too much. Right. I don't know. So that doesn't work. There's this big shootout.

[02:04:38] That's where Smith wakes up in the office. The whole sequence so well, he's really funny, really funny, like really funny at being offered the pills and being like having the reaction of like, I can't be doing this to myself again. You know,

[02:04:50] that's of course what his fear is. It's like, Oh God, I'm slipping into the, the matrix is real memory again. Like, you know, he has a look when Smith is pointing the gun to his head that looks like a dog that's confused. Yeah. Right.

[02:05:02] Where it's not even like he's afraid for his life or that he wants to die, but he's just genuinely kind of like perplexed by everything going on around him. And then you have the sequence,

[02:05:11] a thing that I think this film visualizes really well and it doesn't do an incredibly complicated way, but I've talked about this before in the podcast. One of the, uh, a side effects at the most extreme of my states of, uh,

[02:05:23] anxiety or depression things I've struggled with my entire life is I can have disassociative episodes where your sense of like time and personhood and your, uh, existence within your own body essentially. Like I would describe as my brain pushes the eject button and I have a hard time

[02:05:40] differentiating between like what is in my head and what's actually happening. I need to just like lie down and close my eyes and listen to music until I feel placed again. And the transition between the gunfight into just now he's in the therapist's office is really clever.

[02:05:57] Very often what that feels like for me, where it's like I have the moment before I can start to feel my brain getting loose. And then there's the moment where I feel like things have settled and the stuff in between. I'm like,

[02:06:08] I don't totally know if that happened or not. And that's the trick they're pulling. It's like, yes, they're doing the matrix thing of like you see the cat deja vu. They're actually just reworking the programming and they're just like, okay, fucking shut it down.

[02:06:21] Put him in the analyst's office. We're going to reset his brain a little bit. I also just want to say the bullet time quote unquote in this movie, which people are like, it doesn't look cool anymore. The bullet time really,

[02:06:33] really fucking feels like how it feels in the present when I'm having a disassociative. I think the bullet time looks cool. But we'll talk about where it's like, I know what you're saying. I hear what you're saying. Yeah. Anyway. Shit. I lost my train of thought. It's okay.

[02:06:47] So anyway, so he, but he, whatever he gets reset back to the room. Things are going wrong. Nevermind. Whatever. Right. And then he gets re, how do they even get him out in the end? Like, Oh, well he's, he's going to go throw himself off a building again.

[02:07:00] Right. And that's where bugs make bugs. Okay. Morphine. Morpheus is how we found you, but maybe Morpheus is not ready for prime time for right. Right. So bugs, bugs is the one she has the white rabbit on her arm. She's making the appeal of like,

[02:07:15] you spoke to me and I'm, you know, unknowingly you woke me up, you know, come on, you know, you know, this isn't going to work like in your heart of hearts. Like, you know, that just fucking getting drunk and jumping off a building, you know, this,

[02:07:27] they're not going to let you do that. They're just gonna put you right back on the trip. Also Lana is wrestling with bad fandom and the amount of people who have misinterpreted her film. Right. Especially as time goes on. And even just a month after matrix came out,

[02:07:43] everyone was blaming Columbine on the matrix down to today, the red pill movement, all these fucking things that were out of her control. I saw someone tweet and I'm sorry, I'm not giving them credit here because I forgot who it was, but like, um, uh,

[02:07:57] Lana Wachowski made the matrix. Everyone's been misinterpreting it for 25 years and she has decided to not be subtle at all since then. Right. When people talk about her movies being too loud or blunt or obvious or earnest or goofy or whatever, it's just like,

[02:08:12] I think there's this fear of, I don't want to be misinterpreted ever again because people keep on turning the matrix. I want to yell at the camera what I'm thinking. Right. Absolutely. Sure. Sure. And I think bugs is this, uh, antidote to that where she's like,

[02:08:25] I know you're worried about what this thing you made is and what it caused and whether it's worth going back to that or not. I'm someone whose life you genuinely saved and it spoke to me and I understood it. Right.

[02:08:37] And doesn't that counterweight the thing a little bit? Isn't it worth saying what you want to say if even one person can actually be positively affected by it because you can't control the other people out there who are going to fucking do whatever they do. Right.

[02:08:51] And it's this other thing I love about the movie, which is when Neil wakes up and he's just like, I solved the whole matrix thing. What the fuck is this? Oh sure. Well, what he feels like none of this was worth it.

[02:09:04] And she's like everything changed and also it didn't. It's both at the same time. I guess so. Everything did change though. He's wrong. He is wrong. He feels emotionally that nothing has changed because the world looks the same to him, but he's wrong. Everything did.

[02:09:17] But this is the point. Everything's changes and nothing changes at the same time. Okay. So now can you talk in the world, in our real world? I think that is often too deep in the matrix to, to agree with you. But so now can you talk about,

[02:09:31] is it symbionts? What are they referred to the robot race? That's what they call it. Yeah. But they're, they're machines, they're machines, but they don't want to be called that anymore because I guess that's a baby. Right. And this whole idea of the loom and size. Right. Right.

[02:09:43] Where it's like, okay. In the old days there was the machine city and there was the, you know, the free humans. Right. Right. Right. And now there are still kind of two sides. It seems it was more just sort of a, you know,

[02:09:57] a pro matrix and anti matrix. And like, so now machines are living with humans programs have figured out how to live in the real world by turning into ball bearing people. Binary was one has to flesh versus metal, you know? Right. Yeah. Yeah.

[02:10:14] We have to exist in opposition to each other. Right. And it's like, right. As you said, it could be warring ideologies without the lines being divided by species as it were. Right. And we meet those three characters. And what I think is so amazing is they're basically,

[02:10:30] they're introducing them. They risk their lives. Right. One of them save him. When, when the robots are, are, are, have life, they have consciousness. Right. When Neo is spirited away from his pod, that's one of them. One of these, so baby, so baby, so baby, so baby, uh,

[02:10:45] is right. Is sort of sticking the, his neck out, I guess. And I don't know if it was just my interpretation, but I'm watching it and I'm like, this is such an echo of his first awakening sequence, right? In the first movie, right? He's unplugged.

[02:10:59] He's in the red, uh, pod. You know, this movie has been doing echoes before, but they're usually twisted and then intercut with the original for comparison. And this just feels like you're doing the same scene again. And I'm watching it and plot wise going,

[02:11:12] how did bugs in the crew fuck this up so badly? He's waking up in the pod and he's getting like surrounded by these robots. Sure. How do they not have someone there for him? So the twist of no,

[02:11:22] the robots who you're used to are the threats and then they have to pull the plug and flush them out and send them down. The two are actually here to protect them. As you said, here to help the second they land back on the ship.

[02:11:33] You look back at these robots who five minutes ago seemed like threats. They look like the squid. They're somewhat squidy. The nobility of what they just did. Hell yeah. As you said, the risk, you guys are cute. Luminate, right? That's one. Uh, Lumine, which one is luminate?

[02:11:48] Luminate's the little guy, the little one, which also feels like a funny commentary on kind of like, just put a little cute character in the fucking movie. Octocles obviously has multiple arms. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and then, um, and then I feel like there's a number of them. Well,

[02:12:02] so baby, but I feel like there's a force is Naoba. I'm not sure. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Well, so baby, what is Naoba's the butterfly? That's right. That's the one who looks like the abyss aliens. Right.

[02:12:14] What's so helpful about this for me? Is it just, it also kind of, I feel like answers a question a little bit at that you don't get necessarily. I feel like I might be wrong on the franchise. Of course, David, you would correct me,

[02:12:24] but it's like this whole thing of like, all right, well, what are the robots doing on the planet itself? Like, okay. The matrix they designed is this program it's running humans are in it, but what the fuck are the robots doing on the planet? Other than just,

[02:12:38] they live their life. But what is their life? See, I agree with that. It's just a bunch of fucking towers of like power. And then what, what's the point of staying on? Cause they're not just robots. They're artificial intelligence, right? This is the thing that's baked into it.

[02:12:51] So you, the, the first three movies never interrogate really. And I'm not saying this is the animatrix does, but the movie stuff, the animatrix does agree. The first three movies do not really interrogate the internal life of the robots who are so desperate to stay alive. I disagree.

[02:13:06] And I'm now going to talk. I'm not saying that as a flaw, but I like that this movie sets up the idea of like there are robots who could go like, huh? Maybe this life doesn't make that much sense. Maybe we want to help people.

[02:13:16] They're not just drones. Absolutely. But here's what we see in the first three movies. We see two kinds of beings. We see squids, which are drones. Those are, it seems relatively non autonomous. Where they're just, they're basically living weapons. Right.

[02:13:33] But then we see computer programs in the matrix, such as Ramakandra who made a child Sati. Like that. And like that is going on in the sequels where there is these hints that like there are programs that don't want to just do what they're supposed to do. Right.

[02:13:49] You know, it feels so good. Explore. Tab David explaining the matrix. We're going to do it on the commentaries, but explore emotion or whatever, you know, and like that's so much of the sequels. And also there are programs like the Merovingian and the exiles who have fully

[02:14:02] pieced out of the matrix. They have to live in the matrix, but they live, you know, outside of its walls and are, you know, they, they're doing their own thing. They have a fucking sex club. Agreed. That's fun. Sex club. Now we don't see life in the machines.

[02:14:16] That's what we're talking about. But that's because that is inscrutable in those movies. You know, when, when we never get to agree now, but what happened? I liked it. It becomes scrutable a little bit. You see, well, you see them in IO, not in you, you know,

[02:14:28] just FYI, you know, the machine city, as we all know, the main machine city, cause we've all watched the animatrix is called what? What's it called? I forget. It's called zero one. Okay. Which of course is binary for like, you know, that's like the first binary character.

[02:14:41] So IO is one zero Iowa debris. Um, you know, IO. Yeah. No, it's good. So like, I like it. Anyway, but, um, but we don't see what's going on in the machines, but they have a machine city. We know that. I know. Hovercrafts. We know they built those.

[02:14:56] Like that's why they're flying them around. I'm not trying to backhand the first three movies, but this was a development that I love. It's a great development. Instead of them just being bugs, right? This is the whole, they're, they have, they have like personality.

[02:15:07] This is the whole thing. End of the matrix revolutions. This is what I was so worried about. Like, is he really, I mean, you know, is, are we really gonna, is Neo sacrifice going to be the first order problem as I would call it where it's like,

[02:15:19] where it's truly saying that the thing just happened. It's literally just rebels versus empire again. Their victory was nothing. The cycle, they blow up a fucking planet immediately. The problem with a lot of these legacy sequels is you undo whatever I love in this movie.

[02:15:33] The stakes are really never, we have to stop the machines of course or we have to destroy. Well, I mean we have to stop the matrix. We have to stop the matrix is people. In fact, pointedly not the stakes.

[02:15:45] They go out of their way to say we don't want to fucking get involved with that again because what we learned has happened. So yes, Neo is liberated. He's taken to this new city IO and he needs Niobe who is now very

[02:15:58] old because 60 years have passed and she played by Jada Pinkett Smith and there she is. Right. And it's fine. It looks okay. Whatever the makeup. Yeah, I don't know. I think it looks good. She looks like it looks good. I think I would have. Sure.

[02:16:09] And she tells him like, look, post you. Yes, there were the machines left. They stopped attacking us. And, but then we realized that there was some kind of machine civil war. There was some internal conflict. The Oracle disappeared. The matrix completely changed.

[02:16:24] And that's a whole mess that we are not that interested in because we've got our city here. We are all living in harmony, you know, man machine program. We've got a cool bio sky. Everything changes and nothing says you died thinking you were going to radically

[02:16:41] change the firmament of everything forever. And we've noted is here are the positive things that came out of your change. Here's how things retreated back. So we just decided we'll just do this over here. We don't have to bother ourselves with that. She's, I mean,

[02:16:52] obviously it seems the bugs is more of the type of like we should be, you know, getting into the matrix and pulling people out. She's the new lead of our franchise. She isn't right. And she's, she's looking at a new trilogy. Naomi's like,

[02:17:03] we went through all that shit. It's, you know, because the whole thing is a video game. I did two movies. We shot them all at the same time. I'm exhausted. At the end of revolutions, Neo's truce is not. You will turn the matrix up,

[02:17:14] but it is anyone who doesn't want to be in the matrix because some people just unconsciously don't, you gotta give them the choice rat rather than. We have to go fucking get them and it's a whole, you know, conflict. You just get them out. Yeah.

[02:17:27] And what this movie sort of addresses is what would that cause in the world of the machines? A power crisis. Yeah. You're losing people. Yeah. So like, that is why eventually it sounds like the architect has been defeated or supplanted or deleted or whatever by this new guy.

[02:17:43] Who's kind of like, you know, I know how to juice up the matrix even with less people. And it's by like, you know, one having Neo and Trinity power, but two, but having it be this like hyper emotional, aggressive nightmare kind of play. You know,

[02:17:57] like he talks about how like you guys are making more energy when you sleep just because you're so freaked out. You know all that. Yeah. So right. Like, which is like how Twitter now uses an algorithm to organize your feed,

[02:18:11] to prioritize the posts that are getting most controversial. Right. It's same with Facebook. Same with how, right. Where it's like, well, there's the most discussion and it's like, well, it's all fucking people yelling at each other. Like they're all going crazy.

[02:18:22] What these artificial intelligence programs are designed to look for is like, it seems like there's some friction happening here. It's post right. It's posts. And then that, so that's why I can go on Twitter and be like,

[02:18:33] my dick is so big and everyone who doesn't agree with me is a Nazi. And Twitter's like very controversial take. Does everyone want to see it? You know, like rather than me being like, I'm dicks regular. And if you don't agree, I don't mind Twitter be like, well,

[02:18:46] no one wants to see. But you, David, a sane person would leave that for the alt. But, but the, the matrix doesn't like the alt. It doesn't benefit from the alt. It wants people fighting out in public, you know, on main get the people going.

[02:18:56] Is that what will Farrell says? And anyway, um, I mean, it's the same with all of the, you know, Instagram it's there all, yes, there are, they know human psychotic. It's manipulating humans in this way that,

[02:19:09] that I don't even think we can ever really probably fully understand the perspective of the AI, these programs. Right. Again, thinking in the way of matrix, think about them as people. The thing to underline is we figured out a way to train AI to be able to

[02:19:24] recognize potential conflict. Yeah. That in and of itself is a mind fuck that a computer program can go like, Hmm, this post will make people upset. Yep. Um, so that's the thing. Neo of course never, he knew in making that deal.

[02:19:41] Like it's not like you're going to turn off the matrix. I know you guys need it to live. You guys literally need, it makes your power and your powers how you exist. But he also wants a, but I want,

[02:19:50] I don't want it to be a fucking war anymore. And it's not, it's a tidy end of third movie victory in his mind. I mean like everyone watching the movie is like, wait, what did he do? Right. This is my point.

[02:20:01] So when he wakes up and he's like, I thought I left this place. Well anyway, balanced. I like that bugs has to say to him like, you know, it worked and he's like, I don't think it worked. I never should have woken up. Get over it. Man. Right.

[02:20:15] You still look, well, I like to the depression and it's, it's sort of the wind rises thing of like, why am I bothering making these planes? If people are going to fucking, that was the other movie I kept on thinking about in the second half of this

[02:20:25] film is, is the wind rises struggle of like, I guess what I want to do. I love it. So much. I try to communicate this thing and then people are going to use it in a way I can't control. Is it even fucking worth the effort?

[02:20:37] What were you going to say? Uh, fuck me. Um, there's all right. Well I'll say there is the crucial scene that I already referenced where now be presents him with silence and he's like, Oh yeah, that is powerful. Uh, and now be, I mean,

[02:20:51] can I say that is just good filmmaker? I agree. It's, I think one of the cornerstones of filmmaking, the filmmakers too often today forget. And then I think franchise filmmaking with its massive amount of oversight will

[02:21:04] often smooth out is like the most power you can have in your arsenal is, um, restraint, removing elements strategically, you know, whether it's like you withhold something for a long period of time in the basic grammar of what you have at your disposal as a technical filmmaker.

[02:21:26] It's that simple where it's just like you don't realize that the movie has been inundating you with so much noise for an hour that the second it gives you silence, it feels like a hundred million dollars special effect in the way that totally grateful makers can use color,

[02:21:41] you know, to specifically trigger things without you really recognizing it. So, um, again, my first viewing I'm like at this point now bummed because the hero basically is finding out that like, well actually the world's kind of nuanced.

[02:21:58] It's not just good versus evil and it's like things are complicated and there's like actually kind of this like political sort of ecosystem and you know, like it's like, I almost like kind of was like, but I just wanted the first matrix. Like that's what I did.

[02:22:11] I was like bummed. I was like, Oh my God, really? Like, come on now it's getting more complicated. Do you remember what it's not this clean, just like basically what the new star wars, give me the shot. Like I haven't seen the star wars movie. I wanted,

[02:22:25] I said to Griffin, I was like, I kind of wanted steak. It took me, that was the line I was hoping you'd repeat. It took me a second viewing to actually start to be like, well wait, actually I do fucking like, I wanted the steak.

[02:22:37] He kept on saying as we walked to the train station, I just wanted the state. I don't know if that makes me basic. And I was like Ben, but they're doing this and this. And he's like, I understand it, but I just,

[02:22:46] it would have been great to sit down in a theater and to see the matrix and see people do Kung Fu and leather and be bad ass. And it's like, I can understand everything she was trying to do,

[02:22:56] but it would have been nice to eat a steak right now. And it's the fucking cipher argument. But I don't even think I, I did it. I had to try. I had to really try. And it took every, it took unlocking it the second time. Yes. Yeah.

[02:23:10] I mean like there's this, you know, we, we've sort of skipped over, but there's the more Neo's sort of wake up moment post being unplugged is that the ghost, the dojo with Morpheus and you're like, okay, they're going to do the fight again and they don't,

[02:23:25] it's more Morpheus kind of showing off and Neo being like, I don't want to fight anymore. I already did that. And then his way of expressing himself like martially now is like a Hadouken.

[02:23:38] Like it's just this sort of like a primal scream thing where he just kind of like, you know, like that's all he can do now. Oh, which I think uses a gun the entire movie. Doesn't use another very deliberate. Doesn't. I mean,

[02:23:49] he has a version one fight with Smith, but apart from that, it's not really, uh, you know, he's not really doing Kung Fu anymore. He doesn't fly until the end of the movie. You know, he's not that joke of when he tries. So good.

[02:24:02] It's just because the jump and then falling right back down is just, he is just such a good physical. He is. He is a good physical. But, but, but, but, uh, you know, it gets to obviously you love the matrix equals.

[02:24:17] You have done a job converting us to the matrix. We'll see what we see. I rewatched recently and I look, I don't love them as much as the first movie or you, but, um,

[02:24:29] I don't love them as much as I love you is what I'm trying to say there in that unclear sentence. Um, but, but I, I certainly like, I liked them a lot more than I used to appreciate them fully and feel like I quote unquote get them now.

[02:24:42] But it's one of these things. I think this is important to bring up because it gets into this problem that we constantly have of, uh, in culture, like fans feeling like, why didn't you give me the exact movie I wanted to see? Sure.

[02:25:00] I'm not talking about this movie in particular, but a larger thing as like fan culture has become a bigger thing. And, uh, I will not name him cause I don't need to give power to it, but there's a bad YouTuber that I watch sometimes, uh,

[02:25:13] just to make myself angry who talks about like quote unquote narcissistic filmmakers who get hired to make a new entry in a franchise and use it to say whatever they want to say or tell whatever story they want to tell rather than

[02:25:32] preserving the franchise and giving us what we've already seen before. And he says, it's like a negative, like this is not your story. You shouldn't get to tell this, give us the thing we already want. Don't change the recipe for the Big Mac. Give me another Big Mac.

[02:25:45] You're a narcissist if you're using it to say something else, right? Matrix has erections is obviously the original person coming back to it. But when I look at like the matrix subreddit, and by the way, I've seen people in the subreddit who dislike the movie,

[02:25:58] who have done some of the most thoughtful, positive analysis of the film that I've seen. You mean our subreddit or the matrix subreddit? Our slash matrix. The matrix. There are people who are just like, what the fuck? She ruined the matrix.

[02:26:08] And they also are sort of taking it as a personal affront. Like it feels like the movie is mocking me for even wanting to see the matrix. Um, but there are also people who are like, look, I don't like it, but here's everything she's doing.

[02:26:21] And it's like incredible analysis I've read by people who are very generous with like, it's not for me, but I do think textually this film is very interesting. Um, but there is that balance, right? Of how much do you need to give people what they want?

[02:26:36] How much are they going to be upset if it's not the thing they have in their mind's eye versus challenging them with something new that's an expansion or different direction of, or what have you and

[02:26:49] issue that the matrix equals found themselves in is that the end of the first movie, Neo is fucking Superman now, right? Sure. Everyone watches that. It's all powerful. And the promise of it, you go like, Oh fuck. And then the sequels are,

[02:27:01] he can do anything and then you get to the sequels. And in many ways that's a little dramatically inert. Of course he's unkillable. And Neo is in so many ways kind of passive and stoic and unknowable in reloaded particular.

[02:27:14] I think revolution says a better job of humanizing him again. Well, he's brought low, right? Exactly. But they have to spend a whole movie bringing him low and deflating him. And it's like the problem that people have with the star sequels and Luke Skywalker,

[02:27:27] where it's like if Luke is everything you wanted him to be in your mind's eye, then the movie has nowhere to go. All of this to say, it is funny that for so much of this film, Neo's power is he just kind of holds his hand up.

[02:27:40] It goes like, just stop. Well, this is what I'm trying to say. Like now he can just, I know I gave a lot of wind up to him, but that was the point I wanted to make. Okay. But I do want to point out that matrix reloaded.

[02:27:49] One of the great works of art of the 21st century is about how when you become the fucking Messiah, when you become Luke Skywalker and luck, that is just, you know, and the, you know, and every Messiah in history is just a way of,

[02:28:02] it's just a form of control. Of course. The whole point of the narrative. It's like Neo is can now do anything. And he's like, I can do anything. And he reaches the end and the guy's like, yeah, I wrote that you can do anything. You can't do anything.

[02:28:14] You're going to do one thing, which is do what you're supposed to do. Reload the matrix form. Right. And of course the brilliance is that near mainstream media. It's a form of control. It's a lie. Instead,

[02:28:25] I read everything on Facebook and I follow that to the letter and that's, I'm a free thinker. You know, it's like everything is a system of control. As you said, people need structure and they need rules and they need control.

[02:28:37] So even if they reject the thing that's put upon them, they find some new structure to invest everything into. And I do think that like, yes, reloaded those action sequences, which are very good.

[02:28:47] Like one of the reasons I think the Burley brawl is not as fucking awesome as they thought it was going to be. Although I think it's good. I agree. But like when you watch revisited, it has no ending. It's like he just leaves.

[02:28:59] Rewatching the revisit documentary reminded me how much for a year the hype was. You're not going to believe this fucking fight. If you thought bullet time was cool, this Burley brawl thing is going to blow your fucking mind. Yeah. And the fight, yes,

[02:29:11] it does deflate a little bit. And part of it is just like, well, I know he can do anything now. Right. So you can watch the coolest special effects and the most like complicated choreographies. There's less of a right, like tension. Yeah. Yeah. And so in this movie,

[02:29:24] one of the reasons why you get the sense that like Lana is clearly not even prioritizing action sequences here. It's not even that they're not as good. It's that like, it's not the point is at any time there could be a big action sequence.

[02:29:34] Neo kind of holds up his hand. It goes like, no, I don't want to deal with it anymore. It's defensive. He's not going to do the show of it anymore. Now to get back to the plot, now be, you know, I,

[02:29:47] I think in the movie it makes total sense that she is just like, I don't want you to go rescue Trinity. I don't want you to mess anything up. Everything is nice here. We're, we're, we're living in harmony. Like she becomes kind of a scold.

[02:30:00] Like I think the movie is fine at this. Like, because I think you kind of know in her heart of hearts, like now she's, you know, part of her wants Neo to, you know, to do the thing. Right. But like, it's sort of, now it'd be so cool.

[02:30:14] Yeah. Joe, my brother was saying that he's just like, it's sort of annoying that she's like the Harry Lennox, you know, in the sequels character of like, you stay grounded. All of you, you know, space pilots, you know, I have a comment in defense of that.

[02:30:26] And then a question I think it's, I mean, I think you might find annoying. I feel like nobody's kind of playing like the elder Statesman 87 term Senator. Absolutely. She used to be a political radical and now things just kind. I, yeah, I support like AOC. And it's like,

[02:30:44] can you just calm down and stay quiet? She's not even being safe. What? But certainly, yeah, just kind of like, it's better to not like fuck. I'm a career politician now. I remember I used to be hungry and try to fuck shit up.

[02:30:56] We don't need to fuck shit up anymore. Right. Yeah. Um, here's my question for you. And I don't know if I have an answer, but it came to me. Do you think this movie would be better or worse if at this point when they get to

[02:31:09] IO and there was the elder Statesman who was running the city, it was old Lawrence Fishburne? No, that'd be much worse because it would make no sense that he would never ever say no to Nia. He'd be very prone. Okay. Yeah.

[02:31:21] Cause like the whole Morpheus is like whatever we, Neil wants to do. I am an accolade of Nia. Like, right. Uh, whereas Naomi as, as she says in the sequels and if she says in this movie, she's like, I never totally believed in your whole deal. You know,

[02:31:34] I was always skeptical as, as this movie says, like hosts and you know, once the truce happens, Morpheus became the president because he was right. Like, you know, like he was and you know, yeah, if it's Morpheus, he'd be like Neo,

[02:31:48] it's so good to see you and you'd be like, I gotta go get Trinity. He'd be like, I know you do and I'll see you later. He just would not be an obstacle. I loved you to pink. I think she's a very underrated actor.

[02:31:56] We've called her out a lot on the show cause we've had the good fortune of being able to cover a lot of good in table. If we want to get, it's time that she bring us to the table. But, um, David's sitting at a Brown table. Right. Um,

[02:32:11] Ben's at a glass table. This is where I get sort of excited by how thorny this text is in an interesting way. I understand every creative decision and I still walk away from it and I go, yeah, well fuck.

[02:32:23] I wish they figured out a way to get Hugo Weaving and Lawrence Fishburne in it. Like there's this part of me that's still like, I just want to see my old friends. I think Jonathan Gross' performance is great. I like that they're breaking new ground,

[02:32:33] but part of me is just like, yeah, but what if it was Hugo Weaving? Remember when Hugo Weaving did the thing? I think the movie would work with that. I mean, Fishburne would be playing Morpheus and it would be instead this sort of weird performance of like, Oh,

[02:32:44] he's doing sort of a Morpheus Smith at first. That's odd. And obviously he looks different. He's older. He's, you know, um, I think he would fit into the movie just fine. This is what I was thinking though is like, could you do, is there a,

[02:32:56] I know what you're saying. No. The answer to that is no. In my opinion. What, what I got excited and I couldn't crack it is, is there a good way to make this movie in which Yaya Abdul-Mateen does play young program? Agent Morpheus and there is some version.

[02:33:11] No, no, you can't do that. No, no, no, no. I look at, that's why I posed as a question. It wasn't a pitch. It was a question, but could you have your cake and eat it too? They go, isn't Spider-Man kind of what that is.

[02:33:25] It's so much more complicated than that. Yeah. We can't get into it. Sorry. It's sorry. I won't even. Okay. So they go back to the matrix. Yes. They, upon entering the matrix are greeted by Smith. It was now liberated again, mentally, essentially.

[02:33:39] And basically has the take of like, look, I know you and I used to fight. I now recognize we're kind of just, you know, part of the same Petri dish here. I kind of just need you to stay out of the matrix. I don't hate you. Right.

[02:33:53] Cause like, I don't even think about it. I live in the matrix. I can't have you fucking up the matrix. I would perhaps like, maybe I'll take it over. I hate the analyst. That guy like locked me down. And Neo is basically like, look,

[02:34:06] I don't want to fight you either. I'm here to get Trinity. You know, like, and he's like, yeah, but if you get Trinity, things aren't going to, well, so I guess we have to fight. And then of course there are also some exiles, some monster people. Yes.

[02:34:18] And there's our old pal, the mirror of Injun. So are these guys all supposed to be vampires? Whatever. Yeah. They're his crew. They're like the remnants of his, they're like the sad remainder of his monster. Guys, are they werewolves or the gun? We, obviously.

[02:34:32] They're supposed to be everything. Frankenstein's or the couple of Frankens. Yeah. They have let themselves go. That's the whole point. It's why their program. Well, but the matrix, like the mirror of engine is from an old matrix, right? That's the idea. And he's found his way.

[02:34:44] He's established himself in the, in the sequel. So he's got this club and he's, he's the guy. He's like sometimes code gets dusty, but the matrix has been rebooted again and he has survived. But now, yeah, he's just like, you know, a hobo.

[02:34:58] Do you know what I viewed it as when you're trying to transfer files from like a really old computer to a newer computer and you're like, it doesn't even understand Griff. That's really good. That's exactly what it is. He, yes, he's your, like when they made,

[02:35:11] made a toy story three, they were like, well, we did all the work. We already built all these characters and they were like, we cannot transfer the model of Woody into a present day computer. It's impossible. You have to rebuild it from scratch. Your apps,

[02:35:22] like some of your apps suddenly are sort of like, right. We're just, we don't exist anymore. Sorry. We don't work with this. No one's updating us anymore. They're on a floppy disk and he's showing up and he's like, free me from these floppy. But he's also like,

[02:35:35] everything sucks now. You know, he's just there. He says doing a monologue about how Facebook is annoying and how culture is in the toilet. Going full Fisher King. He's so good. It was so lovely to see him. I squealed with delight. What a good year for David.

[02:35:49] I don't want you to spoil anything. Is there any way Lambert Wilson does not get a supporting actor nod from you? There. I don't know. I gotta think about it. Between the two performances. No. And it's just so in your wheelhouse. I'm like, I mean,

[02:36:04] this is such a silly scene. It's so great. But I'm saying, look, you would nominate him for Benedetta, but this performance kind of boosts him in the Bernthal conversation where you're like, he gave like three good performances. All right. Okay. I don't know. Noted. I mean,

[02:36:18] I know someone done than this movie is on my ballot. That's for sure. Interesting. Um, but uh, love all that. Yeah. Uh, but again, the action is fine. This is the song Neo fight, which I actually think that the action there is pretty solid. Yeah.

[02:36:31] It's just that it ends much like a lot of these fights with a shrug. Well, you just blast them away. Cause you know, you can't kill Smith again. He's right. Kill. That's not going to work. You know, that's not a thing anymore. Call back to the, you know,

[02:36:44] the franchise in general really is just when they, they go into the matrix and they all look cool. Yeah. They've all got their, they all have their, their, their outfits and they have that kind of just moment where you get to like take it in.

[02:36:55] They look so fucking cool. Look cool. I get so excited, you know, anytime they do it in any of the movies. But this one in particular is fucking good, man. What's the name of the actor from Sense8 who has the crazy hair braids and the tattoos? Uh,

[02:37:08] her name is, and the character name, the character's name is Lexi. Okay. Uh, she's played by Erendira Ibarra. Right. He was the Sense8. She's the beard girlfriend of the gay actor. Right. And then Brian J. Smith plays, uh, um, Berg, who is the sort of,

[02:37:25] he was the cop in Sense8, but he's the sort of like, um, Neo all, he's like a big Neo dork. Right. And then you, you have Max Remmel, Max Remmel, who I love, who of course has a wonderful penis in Sense8. He's the German guy.

[02:37:39] I think the first time we got written up in PodMass and the AV club, it was the quote about like this actor. There's a thing about him that's really good. His penis. He's, he's, and that was our quote of the week. He's a really good actor. Yeah.

[02:37:50] I really like Rex Remmel and I love seeing, I like his look with the, the, the blonde hair and this. Yeah. And I love his penis. He's got a great penis. He's got a great dick. Um, those are the main ones. I'm right of the crew.

[02:38:01] I feel like the pilot is get his name. Right. Uh, I think he might be in Sense8 too. I think, I believe he is. Yeah. Anyway, uh, there, I truly took count. It's, it's six or seven Sense8 actors in this overall. So yeah. So post that,

[02:38:18] is it so, you know, post the Smith fight, that's the, he, they go find Trinity. It is telling that this is the hardest section of the movie to recount because this is the section that is also the most action driven, which is a little muddier.

[02:38:31] The movie has been, but it's also just kind of like, yeah, it moves fairly quickly cause then the next scene is him going to see Trinity and her bike shop. She's fucking like in a fucking Def Leppard video practically like sparks going and she's bending over a bike.

[02:38:45] Part of the question's been when he wakes up, he's like, there was another pod right there. It's Trinity. And they're like, are you sure? I know it. I feel it. And she needs to wake up. And they're like, what if she doesn't? And he's like, that's the, she,

[02:38:55] they look at her and she's a blue pill. She doesn't want to. And he's like, well, what about me? And then you were like that too. So it was a comfortable existence. Um, but so when he goes to see her, that's when the analyst shows up,

[02:39:06] throws on the bullet time filter essentially slows Neo down, slows everything down. Let's also acknowledge they have the two coffee dates, right? And then the second one, she comes to him with the information of like, so you're that game guy.

[02:39:20] And I looked at the game a little bit. I told my husband, I thought it looked like me. And he laughed. Right. And I wish I had kicked him across the room. Right. She's so fucking good. And that's really great.

[02:39:29] But I like that at first you were like, well, yeah, of course you would look at the game and go, that person looks like me. This is creepy. But then when you get the reflection, you remember, like she literally doesn't look like that at all.

[02:39:39] There's something triggering in her brain that looks like me to her husband. He's like, you have blonde hair, right? But of course there's no facial structure resemblance, but we're seeing the version of her that does look like the her in the game. Um,

[02:39:52] I don't know if I assume Neo is seeing Trinity as, as she is to not her arsenic. That's how I, I saw him sort of taking it. Obviously they're saying anyway. Um, but yeah. And which is why she feels comfortable saying that to him. Cause he recognizes like,

[02:40:07] yes, you do look like the person in the game. And, but this is where the analyst sort of just explains everything we've been talking about, how this new matrix is predicated on emotion, on stories on like, you know,

[02:40:18] fiction over fact on desire and kicks Neo into another disassociative episode where he's moving in slow motion. It's just clever reversible overstimulation. How it looks. I think it's really, yeah. I like the weird juddery over stimulation of it. I like the way patch Neil Petricaris plays it.

[02:40:31] Once again, feels like an anxiety attack. Um, definitely being paralyzed. Absolutely. Um, and you know, and also I'm also just like freaking out on the lore. I'm just like so happy that they're like, yes, there is the new architect, how this new matrix works, right? Where the architect,

[02:40:46] when, how this guy is different. This guy to me is an evil Oracle. Like it's not so much that he's obviously he's the architect and that he's like running the program, but he's an evil Oracle in that. Like he was also designed to understand humans. Well,

[02:41:00] they also said there was no order Oracle in this new matrix. He's fulfilling both roles at the same time. But like, right. Cause the Merve, the Mervingian was the previous architect tweeted this recently. We can talk about this in the commentaries.

[02:41:14] When I read on the Mervingian is he is the Oracle of matrix to the Oracle. I'm not the architect. Sorry. I think he's the Oracle because I think that's why he's obsessed with getting the Oracle's eyes, but that's, that's a different discussion. Okay. Um, but yeah, no,

[02:41:26] but like, but like the Oracle's whole point in the matrix movies is that she is a program who's designed to understand people and understand what motivates them. And that's how they create the matrix is to serve that. And he is the same. He gets people,

[02:41:38] but he gets how to push their buttons, how to aggravate them, how to stir them up. Like, you know, so he's sort of like a nigger Oracle. He's kind of a good therapist. Like there was a version of me that was worried where I'm like,

[02:41:49] is she going to come in with some anti-fail? Cause he's the villain. And it's like, no, the point is his power is that he actually does understand people's psychology. Yes. Yes, absolutely. And he's not just lying to this.

[02:42:04] It's so good that the villain of this movie is not another super powered agent who you are going to have a fight with. Right. And it's more like the big test in this movie at the end is a conversation is a

[02:42:16] conversation is that he needs to truly win Trinity over to waking up. Yeah. And the analyst is like, okay, yeah. If you can do that. But also if he can't do it, then Neil doesn't even want him. He wants to bloom.

[02:42:28] He wants to go back now better than nothing. Right. And you say this speech also, if you're reading between the lines, definitely is like, I think a moment where people who didn't like this movie, right. Are feeling attacked because he's like, you're a fucking idiot. I think this,

[02:42:44] sure. Not to intellectualize this, but I've seen people say this directly, but it is like, this feels like this movie is calling me an idiot. Yes. For wanting to see the movie I wanted to see. Right. Right. So not only am I not getting that movie,

[02:42:58] but the movie's mocking me. And then on top of that, when they read, which I think is a misread the perception that she doesn't even want to be making this movie. Well, that I think is not true. Right. Right. That's the thing I think is fundamentally mistreated.

[02:43:10] But I understand being pissed off that the movie is both withholding from you what you want and seemingly mocking you for not ultimate role, man. Fucking made a movie dude. Didn't even fucking want to do it, man. But like, I mean, I would say,

[02:43:24] I do see people saying this whole movies. Don't worry about it. Well, let's move on. Let's move on from other people. Sorry. It's okay. No, it's fine. I just, but beyond the fact that we started here in echo, we were under a bridge. Oh, very good.

[02:43:37] I will say, I watched this with my, with my wife last night, this final sequence where yes, Neo makes the emotional pill to Trinity that connected with her. Okay. You know, that moment of like, you know, the cops are going to like take him in Trinity says Chad,

[02:43:53] like I wish she'd stop fucking calling me then, you know, like all that, that I would imagine any time the two of them are on screen at the same time that probably connected with Forky, right? Because it's such a clear emotional in, but the, uh, you know,

[02:44:05] sort of a heisty element of the final action sequence where it's like, okay, like Morpheus and bugs are going to go to the, the pod and they're going to kind of switch Trinity out surreptitiously by using bug, you know, and Sati shows up played by a Priyanka Chopra,

[02:44:21] you know, and it's like, I'm Sati. Well, it's pretty brief and, but they have like a council of Elrond around like a fucking, uh, what? What did I say? I said my wife's name. It's fine. Uh, you know, for kids just like, I don't know who this is.

[02:44:33] And I'm like, Oh, it's Sati from the, they have a council around like a wishing well in the middle of the woods. Right. Could you quickly surmise that? Cause I like, explain just kind of though what we learn in that moment.

[02:44:46] I wasn't a hundred percent clear on how it connects. Sunny is the daughter of she's in the matrix revolution. She's the daughter of two programs that made a baby for no reason. A program that has no function, right? A subplot. It's implied that she can control the weather.

[02:44:59] Um, but it's a sub because once, um, Smith can copies over her, he changes the weather and she makes a sunrise for Neo, but it's implied like the rainbows in the sky that are the analyst mocks. Yeah. But you know, it's, it's,

[02:45:12] it's a subplot in revolutions that this crew, the Oracle is kind of helping this strange new program that's sort of created out of love to survive. Right. And so now that's her grownup. Like, so she's now, she's sort of playing the role of the Oracle in this movie,

[02:45:27] this sort of helpful advisor, you know? Um, which I look, she's an actor. I've had almost no opinions on this point. Yeah. I think she's good, but like I has never really jumped off the white tiger famous. She is very good. White tiger. Right. But outside of that,

[02:45:42] never gave much impression on me. And I was sort of like, huh, that's an interesting casting choice. She's very in the pocket in this. She is really good at the sort of matrix, very like casually rolling off, but, but with the right level of pomp and circumstance,

[02:45:56] I mean, this is like dense fucking dialogue. It is. It is dense. It's a lot. And yeah. And so what she has a lot of presence dad who was a program create, you know, was helped, helped create these like pods that Neo is in.

[02:46:09] So he felt great guilt. Which over this resurrection, you know, that he did not want love. Okay. Well, so, but, and this is a thing I don't think they're never, I'm going to, you're going to have an answer for, but she has a physical,

[02:46:22] she like is like a floating fucking manatee robot manatee. No, that's sort of like, that's like that machine. That's a different, that's a Niobe's robot. Right. That machine is sort of a liaison. It's projecting her. It does project.

[02:46:39] So what all I'm saying is that her dad was a physical, no, he was a program. But then how did he make the pot? The visual language of this is confusing. Yeah. In the sequence where they're unpacking. Was he a robot that had no, no, he,

[02:46:54] he programmed it. It's a, don't worry about it. It's not about like little hammer and nail. He does not exist in a physical tangible form in the real world. Okay. But like his programming then sent a Sentinel out to fucking build the thing. If that makes sense.

[02:47:08] You know, he was, he was involved in the invention of robots building the things it does. I had the exact same confusion point of like, is that supposed to be what he looks like? Now this is a question I heard people throw out.

[02:47:19] I don't know if you have an answer for this. David, why has Sati aged? I don't know. Why, why is Niobe only 20 years older when he's 60 years older? You know, I don't know. Cause they rebuilt them so well. No, I think it's partly,

[02:47:32] it's just like he kind of hit your age and then that's it. You hit grown up hood and then that's, that's the age you are. But I don't fucking know. I don't know. I know. I just mean, program that out cause she's a program.

[02:47:42] Shouldn't she stay a little girl? No, but she doesn't want, I don't know. She can be whatever she wants. Right. I don't know. There was like, so, um, his, her father makes these pots. Sure. He felt great guilt about that. He no longer exists.

[02:47:53] He was like purged by the analyst or whatever, but you know, yeah, deleted. That's why she wants to help. So that means though that also in the last version of the matrix, they knew that they were going to reset it. Okay. So it does connect in. Right.

[02:48:08] I don't know if they knew that. They just knew that they could build technology. It could like bring humans back to life. Okay. They're just fucking doing shit over there. You know, we don't know what they're doing. They're advancing their technology, harnessing energy from humans. Sure. Right. Well,

[02:48:22] no, I like that. It's like literally like the heart of the franchise is the thing that keeps this beating. Right? Absolutely. That's what I love. And it's like that thing of power by nostalgia, baby, but you can't let them get too close because then they'll figure it out.

[02:48:34] So you gotta kind of just glance off each other and that's enough heat to keep everyone really excited. I love that. And this is the thing I said to Ben, the reason I think this movie and emotionally work so much

[02:48:48] better than reloaded revolutions for me is that she finally figured out a way to have her cake and eat it too. And do another awakening story, which has always been the most potent aspect of the matrix in a universal way. Right. And that's the thing. So their awakening,

[02:49:05] I think that's how that's, that works. Yes. Forky was like, so checked out about the sort of like, you know, all right, let's plug bugs in and plug her, you know, but I, I dig all that. Trinity making this decision.

[02:49:17] I'm sure she was right back in it at that moment. That stuff's great. And then of course I think the final sequence is fairly effective because it's kind of creepy. Like the weird bop bomb thing of like love that when the analyst is like, okay, I'm cooked.

[02:49:31] Trinity has woken up. There's also this very misogynistic streak. The analyst that also feels, you know, metatextual, right. Like, yup. Uh, where he's just incredibly derisive of women. Well, there's the bug scene where she's talking about, I'm going to misquote this.

[02:49:49] Doesn't she have the thing where she's like, I understand the feeling if you do a thing and then you lose all control of it and everyone's going to misinterpret it. Hmm. I don't remember that. And the scene where she wakes up, you know,

[02:49:59] there's a scene where it almost feels like it is Lana saying, this is how I process the guilt of people using, misusing the main. Sure. Well, we'll address that in the commentary when it's happening. We'll get to it. But yeah, he, he activates his final thing,

[02:50:12] which is basically just turn everyone like turn on all the bots and have them just fucking suicide. That's what I was going to say. We're using the language of suicide again, which is a big part of this film. But it is. And beyond that,

[02:50:23] so the suicide imagery is very potent, but yeah. And then them sort of crashing, turning into code. But I'm saying it's like the final challenge is, people killing themselves and weaponizing their fallen bodies to attack you. And the way around that is,

[02:50:36] can we go to a higher building and jump off of it? And of course the jump is crucial in the first movie again, you know, like that is the moment of awakening partly is the jump. But, um, but, but the other thing also,

[02:50:46] I just love the idea of, you know, it's like being swarmed with that replies or whatever, you know, like, yeah, just all these people, you know, like it's warming. It's cool. Then all the new design and the explanation of the skins and it just feels so

[02:50:58] contemporary and makes sense really quickly. I think it's great. I, you know, the, again, the action is see me in the way of like, as you say, Neo's really just doing the one thing, right? Just defensive. He's just shielding Trinity's driving a motorcycle, but you know,

[02:51:13] they're really on the run. Now this is maybe my favorite idea that this movie introduces to the lore and it's a basic one. What's that? The end of the first matrix. Yeah. When Neo has died after being told that he's not the one,

[02:51:26] he knows that in the back of the entire time, Trinity says who's dead body. You have to be the one. Cause I'm, I'm falling in love with that. I'm supposed to fall in love with the one and I'm in love with you. And he comes back to life.

[02:51:36] And even people love the matrix. Give him a kiss. That's the thing where some people will spotlight is like, that's a little fucking corny. Sure. Right. Very corny. But I think what this movie is recontextualizing is Neo was never the one because there is not a one.

[02:51:51] The power was in the two of them. Right. They're, they're, they're intrinsic. And I mean, I'm going to monologue on this. I've seen people say, Oh, this movie rewrites it and makes it so Trinity, he's the one now. And it's like, no, it's not.

[02:52:01] The whole point is there are two sides. The power comes from the two of them being together. Literally the power that runs this entire fucking city. It's it's the Oracle's whole gambit is, is the, their union. It's not just liberating Neo. It's, it's the two of them.

[02:52:16] He doesn't have power without her and vice versa. And the first movie, the first trilogy rather prioritize showing off his awesome power. He has the right, he has these superpowers. He has the prime, the visualization.

[02:52:27] That's part of why he doesn't do bad-ass shit that much in this movie, because you want in the final 20 minutes Trinity to fucking whip around on a motorcycle and fly, fly, do the awesome shit. That jump is done in real life, right? Like they did a million times.

[02:52:41] It's like this crazy. Why is one of the pre pandemic things they shot when I think they had less restrictions on how they could film. Right. And uh, and the, the visual is so funny. And like maybe again,

[02:52:52] people find that a bit of a sort of deflated balloon thing where it's like, it's not like soaring. It's that she's just hovering and he's like, are you doing this? Like, but I love that. I love it. And it's sort of looks like the Sims.

[02:53:05] It's so goofy in a good way. It's Louis Toonsey in a movie with a character named bugs who says what's up. And also it's about Warner brothers. They attack the analyst like, you know, when they're like knocking his jaw off and she'll be like,

[02:53:18] that's kind of cartoony too. You know, I should mention, right. We should mention like not Joe, it's not just Neo and Trinity waking up. Smith shows up and attacks the analyst. And I've seen a lot of people being like, I don't get this.

[02:53:31] I don't get why Smith's involved. Yeah. Like, you know, like just from a plot perspective and to me it's like he hates the analyst. Right. He is negative. Like, so like Neo is his ally in that moment, but he also just like, um, fuck, I had this,

[02:53:46] you know, he, he, but like he needs. Metaphorically, the analyst is almost like a film critic. Smith is like the studio head and Neo and Trinity are the artists. Right. Hmm. Wow. Maybe. Yeah. I don't know. Well, that's interesting. Why several metaphors? I just see,

[02:54:02] I always just took it as Smith was just, he's like a virus and virus. It's just destroyed. That's all he kind of sees off fence. And it's like, maybe there's some revenge to it, but to me it just feels like his, his point is to do that.

[02:54:17] But he doesn't attack Neo. He is kind of just like, well, we're not allies anymore, but you know, be on your merry way. I'll, I'll be, I'll be seeing you. I was in here. Yeah. And he vanishes. Um, I don't know.

[02:54:29] We'll talk about it more in the car. I have to think about Smith more. I just, this final MPH monologue is just such good shit eating little tour bullshit. It is. He's great. And it's, it is the arrogance of like a self-important Reddit post or something, you know?

[02:54:45] Oh, there's like a, well, there's something about where he talks about the productivity, yeah. The output. Right. And you understand like kind of just like, again, the machine world and why this matrix, why it's operational. And like, you know that there he's producing enough energy and that,

[02:55:03] you know, that even it's like, there's like board meetings and stakeholders in the robot world. Like, I don't know all that like stuff I really locked in on. Right. I guess. Yeah. He just doesn't want the analysts to regain control. He's pro Neo in that way.

[02:55:16] He wants to destroy the analyst. So enemy of his enemies, a friend. And then, yeah. And then he's just sort of like, yeah, well, I'll see ya. Yeah. You know, I don't, I don't need to fight you anymore. Yeah. We already did that. Like, I know that's not,

[02:55:30] that's not going to work out for me. I just love how much of this movie is. We already did that in an era where so many of these franchises are like, we obviously have to hit the six big beats. I mean, obviously they do fight in the movie.

[02:55:39] I'm not saying it completely ignores it, but we even, you know, like the same way that Morpheus gives the speech and then goes, eh, blah, blah, blah. I don't know. I fucked this up. Like every time they set up the thing that they're going to repeat,

[02:55:48] they also deflate in a way that I love. And, but I, I don't, I'm not getting off on the deflation in this way of like, ha, the movie is smart. Like I find it very funny and self-aware and like cute and clever,

[02:56:02] but also like the emotion of the characters has never gone from me. So I'm never invested. I don't think it sells out the integrity of the characters. And I think in fact it is showing a humanity to them struggling to live up to these things.

[02:56:16] And like once again, this movie ends with, you know, not ha ha. We win, you know, matrix deleted. He'd be analyst is still there. And I'm like, why are you still here? And he's like, look, I'm the only one who knows how this fucking place works.

[02:56:29] So they're not getting rid of me yet. And they're like, okay, well we're going to do whatever we want. And if that messes with you, you know, sorry. Thanks for bringing us back, I guess. And they fly off in love. Lady pisses on stage singing,

[02:56:42] wake up 10 out of 10. I'm fucking cheering. And then looks at me, says, I don't know what's going on. And then there's a post credit scene about cats. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Okay. So we stayed in the theater and then there was one couple in the back row and we

[02:56:57] like stand up after the cat thing. Right? I was like, I'm wondering if there's anything. It's not like that's usually a Wachowski move. Right. But I'm wondering if there's anything we stay for that scene. I'm like giggling to myself. We get up, we turn around,

[02:57:09] there's the couple in the back row. There's that moment of kinship you sometimes have with another person in a movie theater. Right. Yeah. And the guy goes, so we waited through all of that for, for that. And I just yelled back worth it.

[02:57:23] And we walked out of the theater. I guess the cat thing is cute. I, I, I love that the end is just like, we are going to be free. Like, and, and just like, let us do our thing. Do our thing. Right.

[02:57:38] Let everyone do whatever the fuck they want. Yeah. You know, he's like, wow, I've still got all these ideas and they're like, okay, you know what? Well, let me put it better. You don't have any power over it. Let everyone do what makes them happy. Like that's,

[02:57:48] if you're not fucking with other people in their life, the thing, right? I mean, that's, and that's so much about the individualism of these films. And I think talking about identity and all these things for a trans woman, it's like the triumph over online is like, he's like,

[02:58:03] well, I know how to push your buttons and like, yeah, well you don't have any power over us. Right. You know, we're just going to do fire out. I just want to feel good about myself and people, you know, I was talking to David early,

[02:58:13] who's very enthusiastic as we were leaving. And he was like, I would love to see another one. Like, I think that's such an interesting ending. Like I think there's so much, you know, yeah, potential to, and I'm not sure I get that. I'm like,

[02:58:25] I don't really know where it could go from here, but also I feel both ways at the same time. And you know, if Lana Wachowski wants to make another one, which I feel like I'm getting the message that she doesn't right now. That's what it sounds like.

[02:58:37] James McTeague is the one who's been doing interviews and he's kind of like, there's no plans for like, or there was no pitch. Right. And Warner Brothers has been like, we'd love more matrix, but like,

[02:58:45] I don't know if they still feel that way after it's sort of like lukewarm at the box office. I don't know. I've read quotes in the last 48 hours where they're like, this is the second biggest HBO max thing we've had all year.

[02:58:55] It's some better than almost all the other blockbusters we put up there. Sure. We're very much in the business of doing more matrix if she wants to. Right. I think they are not deterred by the box office performance at all. No, it's sort of meaningless to them.

[02:59:08] It's kind of meaningless to them. The only one that really mattered was Dune. And that was just cause the over-performance was so pronounced with that one. But everything else is a weird legendary of that whole thing. Legendary pictures,

[02:59:20] the entertainment company and the funding financing deal on that and whatever. Um, can I just say I, I corny sap Griffin shit and I've been trying to figure out how to formulate this point for the last week and I don't know if I'm going to execute it right

[02:59:33] now. Yeah. Talking to Kevin T Porter, the great Kevin T Porter, friend of the show, past and future guest, one of the great people. And, uh, was talking about just the, the, uh, horrible depression I've been feeling. And a lot of what I've been, uh,

[02:59:48] struggling with recently is, and now it's a whole other thing now that there's a whole new surge and a new wave and a fear of, are we repeating ourselves as the cycle going to go back to, you know, is the matrix resetting right? Is that, uh,

[03:00:02] I spent like 18 months in lockdown between, uh, the worst of lockdown and my health problems I had where I really wasn't was not just seeing people, you know, I saw less than 10 people for like 18 months. I live alone and, uh, most of my socialization, as I said,

[03:00:18] was a form of performance, sure. Which really disconnected me from the sense of self. Yeah. And you and I have talked about this a lot, but, uh, you know, I'm very happy and relieved when people say like,

[03:00:32] I think you guys kept up the quality and the show is still good during the worst of it. Because you and I have talked about that. It really felt for a lot of that. Like we were doing an impression of ourselves. A little bit. Yeah. Right.

[03:00:42] You said to me, not take words out of your mouth that like, that was the moment where you realize that you're more of a performer than you thought you were. Cause the show before had always been a conversation and behavioral and you were

[03:00:54] aware of the fact that you had to turn something on right. To make the show feel like the way it used to. Right. Right. And especially because I had no life outside of my performance and my work as it were, I, a little bit,

[03:01:07] I feel like Tom's Anderson at the beginning of this movie, I was just like, if I'm left alone, I have no idea who the fuck I am anymore. I have too much time alone with my own head questioning what feels wrong in the

[03:01:16] state of the world and whether any of this is fixable. And it's no longer that like sort of it, that matrixy everything feels wrong and I don't understand how this could ever be good again. Kind of thing. Right.

[03:01:27] That's a little removed from self and that I had a couple months of just kind of manic excitement post-surgery lockdowns were easing up. Vaccinations were good. I was like, I'm invincible. I can fucking do anything. Sure.

[03:01:42] And then the last handful of months have been like the whiplash a little bit of everything catching up to me and how much I haven't processed. Right. And just saying to Kevin, I feel weird cause I still feel like I'm doing an impression of myself most of

[03:01:55] the time. Okay. He said to me, is there any time when you do feel like you're actually yourself again? And there were two answers that came to me. One was when I go to see a movie. You love to see the movies.

[03:02:09] As people don't think of it as a social act in that kind of way. Nope. When I'm able to sit there full range of vision, obscure my own thoughts, hyper focus on someone else's life, fictional. I feel normal again. I'm outside of my own brain. Right. Right.

[03:02:27] And it's the behavior I didn't have in the worst of this where so many things feel tainted by the pandemic cause I had to do them so many times during the pandemic. Okay. Uh, not the pandemic.

[03:02:36] And the second thing I said was doing the fucking podcast in person. Right. It really is. And when we have to go back and do zoom episodes now and increase it, we'll probably do some more. We'll do some, I do feel that same anxiety. And when people like,

[03:02:51] uh, have complaints about things that happen in episodes, which are valid. I'm like, yeah, I know. I agree. I hate myself too. I can't fucking struggling to do this. But when we do an episode in person, I feel like a fucking human being again.

[03:03:03] And it doesn't feel like a performance. And I did think about the, like the, the whole central thing in this movie of the charge of, of Trinity and Neil being in the same space,

[03:03:14] both pods being in a close proximity to each other and also needing to find each other within the simulation. And it is this like, which has key thing of love conquers all, you know, that their movies have increasingly become about, but it also is like,

[03:03:31] and to view this as a movie that was brainstormed out of grief, right. Grieving for lost love. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, that then is interrupted by a pandemic when everyone's separated. True. And I'm sure the movie gets reconceptualized in her head, even if not rewritten the meaning,

[03:03:48] the thoughts, the feelings behind things get changed when you come back to it nine months later and you're making this movie in an uncertain world. The idea, especially in a franchise that is all about us living these digital existences. This is what fucking matters. And I'm gesturing to,

[03:04:05] she's just sitting here with the two of you guys. It's, it's the, it's the whole fucking thing that matters to me. And it's the thing that despite the fact that this conversation is being recorded and it seems like a performance versus the conversations I have in private. This,

[03:04:19] this is the thing. This is the one social interpersonal thing post pandemic when I feel a complete restored sense of self. We will stop recording. I'll go out, I'll wander the streets. I'll be like, who the fuck am I again? I'm trying to get it back.

[03:04:33] I'm trying to get it back. I don't know. I remain very confused about everything, but all that hit me hard and it did just underline this thing for me that I just verbalized for the first time, like two days earlier of like, this is when I feel,

[03:04:46] I feel like I'm in a place where I can't do anything. This is when I feel it's Trinity and Neil shaking hands in the coffee shop and it's like, huh, this is something. What do you think, Ben? Final thoughts,

[03:05:00] whatever that is for whoever you are in your life. I was, I would say that subtle sort of hint I'm throwing out there. How long have we been going? There's a thing David does when I start going on like an emotional tangent

[03:05:11] overanalyzing my own life about something where I can see him being like, good. Okay. I have 15 minutes to work on taxes. It's not, it's more, I haven't eaten food in very long time either. I forgot to get a fucking bagel today. Yeah. So I'm really struggling with that,

[03:05:26] but uh, okay, but I'll be quick. Okay. Something that I feel like we didn't touch upon that I want to mention and it ties into my final thoughts is the strawberry production of vegetation. It's a big, big thing. Now be is sort of pointing out in,

[03:05:44] in IO like we're fucking growing shit. How do we know that tasty weed is tasty weed? The program might've got it fucked up. What tasty we used to taste like 500 years ago. Right. And bugs at one point is like, fuck your fucking strawberries dude. Like hero time. Right.

[03:06:02] And so the first time I saw the movie I was like, yeah, bugs you're fucking right. The second time it was, that was like, I feel like this moment that really I think encapsulated, um, me being able to actually really enjoy this movie and that it's,

[03:06:20] this movie is going to age well. Like this movie is very thinking ahead. Big picture. I agree. Keanu's thing when she showed him the movie for the first time was he apparently said 20 years ago you predicted the next 20 years and watching this movie,

[03:06:33] I feel like you are predicting what the next 20 years from here on out are going to be. So it's so like a forward thinking and um, and I think, yeah, like having your character be more interested in making food, right. And having comforts. And then also, you know,

[03:06:54] think about the first movie of how the character betrays them because he wants those comforts. Like it is this very simple kind of like, these things aren't binary anymore. Yeah. And also strawberries fucking rule. Like that's what we fight for.

[03:07:10] You should be able to enjoy the best things in life. And life isn't fucking, we're all heroes and villains. And it's like sometimes things are really simple and also sometimes things are super nuanced and, and it isn't just the fucking myth, this mythology.

[03:07:24] First matrix is so Kimbellian and it's influenced the following two decades with so many movies being so burdened with this one narrative. And so I'm being all conquering and it's all these things that I think she looks at, not just sociologically the way people misinterpret the matrix,

[03:07:38] but the way other filmmakers have ripped it off, focusing on the wrong elements and being like, it's not the one it's to, it's not us versus them. Yeah. There's crossover. Absolutely. It is. It makes sense to want to eat the fucking steak. It does.

[03:07:53] All these things are like, these lines are blurred. I don't want these things to be reduced. I don't know. I think it's really special. It's a really special film. And um, uh, yeah, I don't know. That's it. That's all I got. Great. Let's play the box office game.

[03:08:09] Christmas. Did you want to say, did you want to, uh, do you want to do a 20 minute? No. Did you want to like a thumbs up? Okay. Yeah. The box office game. Well, number one, number one. I forgot to mention that when they're in the real world,

[03:08:22] the programs become ball bearings, which I love. I said that. I said, I said ball bearings. Okay. They're cool. Check the record. I shouted out the ball bearings. It's fine. That the second half of the movie, Morpheus is like, yeah, don't really worry about me.

[03:08:34] I'm just going to walk around as a naked ball bearing man. And he has less to do in the sec, which is probably why I'm all, which is one reason I'm less frustrated by the lack of fish burn. Cause you know, Morpheus is not, he's, he's the catalyst.

[03:08:47] He's not fresh about like a fish burn. I just always love Lawrence would take to see him helping. Number one of the box office on Christmas Eve, 2021 was a spider man. No way home. Yep. Making $84 million in its second weekend. And that's just the weekend.

[03:09:02] Obviously all these days are days off in a way. So it's sort of a weird weekend, but yeah, we both saw it. You know, it's enjoyable. Uh, I don't know. It's kind of, it is in so many ways the opposite of this movie,

[03:09:16] but I also think it is the version of that, that at least is functional and entertaining. It's very, it's very watchable. I had a good time watching one of the sweatiest movies I've ever seen story-wise

[03:09:27] the way they have to twist themselves into knots to pull off all the things they want to do. But look, it at least is basically effective as entertainment. Usually. I think it's usually effective. I get it. I get it. Here's the thing I'm going to say very quickly.

[03:09:40] Walk talking around a spoiler. Yeah. I think it was very interesting that there is a character in that movie who is able to accomplish things that, uh, superheroes in the Marvel Cinematic Universe have spent entire films learning how to do. Okay.

[03:09:55] And he becomes as good at that guy pretty much at doing them almost immediately. And no one has accused him of being a Mary Sue. Oh, that's a fair point. Right? Yeah. Well, I've not heard one person say that. I just want to throw that out. Okay.

[03:10:09] I speak obliquely, but if you've seen the film, I think you know what I'm talking about. Sure. Well, it's one of the films, many sweaty story cutting corner things, but whatever. Number two, the box office. Number two, the box office is Sing 2,

[03:10:20] which I think people looked at as some sort of like fuck matrix bomb. So hard. Sing to beat it. Hey, Sing 1 was so goddamn huge. People forget it was fucking humongous. 270 domestic. Sure. Sing. Also Sing 2, not on Peacock, right? No. So pure theatrical release.

[03:10:40] Of course it's going to do. Yeah. No. Sing 2 is doing great. It's a family movie. Bono's in it apparently. I don't know. Yeah. Matrix clashes with the Spider-Man in terms of audience. Sing 2 has got its own lane. I have no idea how the matrix is doing.

[03:10:53] I don't think either. Yeah. I don't think it's Sing 2 beating matrix at the box office is reflective of nothing. And it's not embarrassing. Number three is my whole thing is like, I don't, the whole thing with box office is not, nothing is embarrassing right now. Who cares?

[03:11:06] Movies are doing well, badly. I'm excited. The West side story is finally holding, but obviously it's not making much money. Yeah. It jumped week to week this week. It's going up. Yeah. Um, which is, which is interesting. And like,

[03:11:19] obviously the next week is sort of interesting at the box office, but there's also a pandemic and there's one demographic going to theaters more than others and blah, blah, blah. I agree with you on all of this. And I view everything in that way.

[03:11:31] Like an over performance is exciting, but an under performance isn't really indicative of anything. My fear is always is the industry is incredibly reactionary and scared. And I worry about them panicking and making rash decisions, but they're also, they're also always behind.

[03:11:46] You have to remember Warner brothers already committed to the next year being theater only because everyone got mad at them about the last thing. And so we'll see how next year goes. 45 days. Everything is fine. I agree. 45 days. That's what it should be. That's what it should be.

[03:11:59] It that's, what's going to just be from now on is just after 45 days, make your money. It's free quote unquote on a streaming site. These fucking, you know, fourth of the box office is a prequel. Fourth at the box office is a prequel.

[03:12:12] This is called the King Kings man. Haven't seen it. Neither have I. Uh, some people like it. Others don't. The most divisive movie of the year. Some people like it. Others do not. A true just, I don't know. Whatever. So we got to put it out. Please.

[03:12:28] Just it's Kings man. Anyone, anyone quietly sat on a shelf for like, as long as new mutants, but no one was talking about it because no one gave a shit. Number five, the box office. It's an inspirational true story drama. It's called about a quarterback, American blank,

[03:12:43] an underdog story, American underdog, the Kurt Warner story. Yeah. I have to really advise Kurt Warner, Ellie Rams quarterback, maybe St. Louis Rams back then. I can't remember. Inspirational faith-based gotten a plus cinema score. Matrix got to be minus. Yeah. A West side story is number six,

[03:13:02] a journal for Jordan. Number seven, talk about a movie that doesn't exist. Crazy. What would call a future film that time forgot? Yeah. Uh, licorice pizza, uh, expanding slowly to 700 something screens doing very well. Continue to have very normal conversations about, uh, in Kanto ghostbusters afterlife,

[03:13:23] which seems to be topping out in one 20. Well, it's still making money. And look, talk about 45 days. That movie came out mid November. It will be on digital for rental in three days. Can't wait to see it. Nightmare alley. Boston's going to make you feel really bad, but,

[03:13:39] uh, and morality of film I'm confounded by. Yeah. We'll do Del Toro someday. That's right. I guess we've got to wait until he makes another good movie. Uh, and then, uh, well, and then you got Gucci still chugging over, chugging its way to five or $50 million.

[03:13:55] One of the few box office performances that I find a little bit encouraging because it's actually just a star driven drama. Doing well, get some buzz. Young people want to see it. Yeah. Um, and that's the box office. This has been the matrix.

[03:14:10] How long is our running time? Ben Hosley? Well, with ads, I think this might be, there's only two ads this week. Oh, interesting. But they're each going to be half an hour. No, we already recorded them. They're short.

[03:14:22] And so then I'll say that I'm going to guess that this is about three hours and 20 minutes. Great. So people will be happy with that, right? Thrilled. Look, we're going to do another episode on the matrix resurrections in a few months.

[03:14:34] We're going to do more hours in the matrix. So much more matrix chat. I'll get very nerdy about it. I promise. I think we have done this film justice. I do say, I think this is what people want out of this episode. And I wasn't, you know what?

[03:14:47] I'm sorry. David is sipping an empty glass of water. It's fully empty. There's not even drop in there. He tried to see if he tilted it back and forth. Maybe there was one final drop. He could use.

[03:14:57] And it's making him even angrier because now he's thirsty on top of hungry. I'm still talking. He washed up. He's closed the laptop. David has closed. I think that almost never. Now he's okay. He's David walks down the street with an open laptop, holding it out.

[03:15:11] I do not. I do not. Top is never closed. Unlike the balcony. All right. Well then we really should wrap things up. So then quickly I'll just say for any of those fans out there who may be

[03:15:23] interested in hearing our Marvel commentary series that we started out on Patreon back in 2019, we will start throughout this year, making those available on the day they originally were published. So that means we will be beginning with Iron Man. Right. So for those who don't know on Patreon,

[03:15:40] we release new episodes on the 1st, the 11th and the 21st and starting this year there will be a new episode on the 1st, 11th and 21st, but also on patreon.com slash blank check. If you go there,

[03:15:53] we will be making public the link for whatever episode came out on that date, exactly three years earlier. And that's going to be our model going forward. So we're, we're releasing episodes from the paywall after three years. Yeah. Fun Marvel commentary episodes. You can watch along at home.

[03:16:12] Ghostbusters on Patreon right now, starting now and we've got a mailbag episode on January 11th. That's right. And then in February and March we're going to be doing episodes on top of the lake. I know we said we'd never do TV again, but we're in line. Yup.

[03:16:29] And then yeah, as we said, matrix commentary is coming up after that. Uh, thank you all for listening. Oh yeah. Big, big new year for blank check. Can't think of a better way to start it out. People were really doing the goodbye and then you stopped. Keep,

[03:16:43] keep going. I want to tell you a thing that I've been thinking about recently. Gotta keep going. So goodbye. No, I think David, you saying people will be happy with this episode.

[03:16:51] I think the fact that for the first time in a year we made them wait more than seven days for any episode, let alone an episode on a movie that is so tied into our history and that everyone is talking about. I hope people were satisfied by it.

[03:17:07] And if not, we'll talk about it for another two and a half hours. Yeah, exactly. Soon. Right. Um, thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate review and subscribe and go to patreon.com slash blank check for all the stuff I mentioned.

[03:17:22] Thank you to Marie Barty for our social media agent McKeon, Alex Baron for our editing, Pat Reynolds and Joe Bowen for our art work, Lee Montgomery and the great American novel for the theme song. Uh,

[03:17:33] you can listen to their new album extremely loud and incredibly online a way to describe matrix resurrections. Yeah, definitely. Wherever albums are found, uh, go to our Shopify page for a merch, uh, come in, come in soon. We've priced the previous topical shirts, talking the walk 20,

[03:17:53] 20 and the fifth anniversary show. We price them to move there on deep discount because we've got to get through that inventory, but also coming soon. Can I say it here? Our commemorative 2021 item for talking to walk is not a shirt is in fact a

[03:18:09] spatula that we are naming the spread master. It is a blank check themed spatula. That's right. I'm the spread master. And, but also this is the spread master. It's a blank check purple spread master spatula coming soon along with chip coin. That's right.

[03:18:28] And other stupid shit we're going to make cause I'm a dog. That's right. Ben's doing stuff to merchandise spotlight. They didn't make toys for this movie. It's insane. I fucking hate it. Why can't I buy the robots? All right, David, you should go. Okay. Yeah. No, it's okay.

[03:18:41] And as always, why haven't they made merchandise? I'm going to harp on this while David's peeing. Uh, Griff. Well, because the movie is examining the toxic parts of this, um, I understand. And the toys,

[03:18:57] Tom Anderson's in an office surrounded by the fucking trotch keys that I buy is supposed to be the unfulfilling part of his life. Absolutely. But I also look at that scene and I go, well, yeah, that's, you got the McFarland toys, trendy figure right there in the Morpheus.

[03:19:12] Why aren't you giving me new versions of McFarland still in business? He could just do it again and they have a new articulation system because back then they were pretty much just doing statues and nerd humbles as people like to call them colloquially.

[03:19:23] And now digital sculpting advancements for films, expanded palette. I want to bugs. I'd like a sub baby. Illuminate. Octocles. Yeah. Well, um, old Naomi. If you wish really hard, maybe it'll come true. Throw in Fitzmore fans. Yeah. I just, I just don't see this, um, happening unfortunately,

[03:19:47] but maybe I'm wrong. I hope it does. I just did. Does this doesn't strike me as the movie for the kiddies who are going to want to get toys? I'm talking about a collector audience here and adult collector audience, McFarland toys. It's an added. Oh,

[03:20:00] well I also now have to leave. Ben is leaving my own apartment. Own apartment. Left here ranting about fucking baby toys.