The Matrix Revolutions

[00:00:01] Blank Check with Griffin and David, Blank Check with Griffin and David

[00:00:09] Don't know what to say or to expect

[00:00:13] All you need to know is that the name of the show is Blank Check

[00:00:20] Everything that has a beginning

[00:00:23] Has a podcast!

[00:00:24] Alright, nice. Very happy.

[00:00:26] There was a double cross there, but it was good.

[00:00:29] I thought you told me you wasn't going to do that.

[00:00:31] Yeah, and we'll play the clip of me saying that I wasn't going to do it at the end of this episode.

[00:00:34] Hello, I'm David Sims.

[00:00:36] Hi, my name is Griffin Claude Baresford Dofan, new man.

[00:00:39] I didn't say my middle name.

[00:00:40] Well what's your middle name?

[00:00:41] Lawrence.

[00:00:42] I knew it was L. I don't know if I ever know that was Lawrence.

[00:00:44] Yep, my mother's father's name.

[00:00:46] Oh, very cool.

[00:00:47] My mother had two fathers and one mother because I have a mangled family tree, so it's a Baresford and Claude and Dofan.

[00:00:54] Yeah, no, I think anyone who goes to your IMDb pages had that delightful surprise for full name.

[00:00:58] That's why I have a lot of names.

[00:01:00] Welcome to Blank Check with Griffin and David.

[00:01:03] It is a podcast. We talk about movies.

[00:01:05] And we talk about directors. We talk about careers, filmographies.

[00:01:08] When a filmmaker or in this case a pair of filmmakers have an early success big, big cultural sort of tidal wave film early on in their career

[00:01:19] and they get the chance to keep on making crazy and crazy.

[00:01:21] Make things right out of their brains.

[00:01:22] We're talking about the Wachowskis.

[00:01:24] This podcast is called The Pachowsky Castors.

[00:01:26] Yeah.

[00:01:27] We're going to talk about the Matrix Revolutions today.

[00:01:29] Happy Passover. Let's go.

[00:01:32] I like it.

[00:01:33] Happy Passover. By the time people listen, it's LBE.

[00:01:35] Yeah, it's like the middle of May.

[00:01:36] But whatever. Happy Passover guys.

[00:01:37] We're recording all these Matrix episodes in one week because my schedule is stupid.

[00:01:41] No, but it's fun.

[00:01:42] You know what I realize is even a simpler way of describing the conceit of this podcast?

[00:01:46] It's sort of a career after a filmmaker becomes a brand.

[00:01:50] Do you know what I'm saying?

[00:01:51] Absolutely.

[00:01:52] When there becomes an expectation of like, this is...

[00:01:54] This is an X movie.

[00:01:55] Right, you know?

[00:01:56] Yeah.

[00:01:57] When there are expectations on the film like that.

[00:01:59] Yeah, we mostly talk about directors who maybe a studio would even say like, hey, this is a

[00:02:04] movie from these people or this person.

[00:02:07] Right.

[00:02:08] And the audience would go, oh, or...

[00:02:10] And even bigger when they use their actual names rather than from the directors of when

[00:02:15] they go from the Wachowskis.

[00:02:17] I think with the Wachowskis they may say from like the visionary creators of the Matrix

[00:02:21] trilogy.

[00:02:22] I've seen that in like one of the trailers for their future films.

[00:02:26] I feel like...

[00:02:27] Maybe Jupiter ascending had that.

[00:02:28] I feel like they do the thing where they cut it both ways where they go like...

[00:02:31] From the Wachowskis, the visionary creators of the Matrix.

[00:02:34] They're also...

[00:02:35] They have the benefit of being named the Wachowskis.

[00:02:37] It's a pretty cool unique name.

[00:02:39] Yeah, yeah, that's true.

[00:02:40] This one we're talking about today is their fourth film.

[00:02:43] Which is...

[00:02:44] Yeah, it's interesting to think that.

[00:02:45] They made four films.

[00:02:46] They're not like Shyamalan who we did last time who, you know, he had a little

[00:02:49] bit of a running start.

[00:02:50] You know, he made a couple of very small movies before he got...

[00:02:53] Boom!

[00:02:54] Their fourth movie was this movie, The Matrix Revolutions.

[00:02:57] They made these...

[00:02:58] This was 2003 so they've been directing movies for what are we saying here?

[00:03:02] Like seven years.

[00:03:03] Yeah.

[00:03:04] And at this point in their career 75% of their films have been Matrix movies.

[00:03:08] True.

[00:03:09] Yeah.

[00:03:10] They went deep into this.

[00:03:11] This was filmed simultaneously with Reloaded the previous which had come out in May

[00:03:16] and this came out in October.

[00:03:18] No, November 5th.

[00:03:19] November 5th.

[00:03:20] 2003.

[00:03:21] Okay.

[00:03:22] I was 17 going on A. I was a senior in high school.

[00:03:26] Yeah, I gotta say, I mean the shift...

[00:03:28] The fascinating shift for these movies with these movies for me is that Matrix

[00:03:31] Reloaded comes out the end of my eighth grade year.

[00:03:35] So it's like my last days in middle school and then...

[00:03:40] Now you're in high school.

[00:03:41] I mean high school.

[00:03:42] So I like there was a seismic shift within me.

[00:03:44] Within you?

[00:03:45] Within your life?

[00:03:46] Between the six months that these two films were released, I just became a worse person.

[00:03:51] I became a horrible high schooler.

[00:03:53] Well you know...

[00:03:54] When I was at a new school, new friends, and even this speaks to it.

[00:03:57] Like I saw Matrix Reloaded opening day, opening night with all my best friends from middle school.

[00:04:03] Yeah.

[00:04:04] And I saw Matrix Revolutions like two weeks later on a Tuesday with a guy I kinda liked.

[00:04:09] Yeah, I saw this movie and certainly not opening.

[00:04:12] It was more of a like, alright let's get around to this one.

[00:04:15] It definitely felt like doing my laundry.

[00:04:17] I didn't see it at the Odeon Lester Square in London which is like this sort of primo biggest screen theater.

[00:04:24] It's like a basically like, it's a one screen huge theater.

[00:04:27] I similarly saw Matrix Reloaded at the AMC Lincoln Square and then saw...

[00:04:32] Revolutions at the Regal Battery Park.

[00:04:35] Oh ho ho!

[00:04:36] I was just there for the Dreybacaville Festival at Cavartus Place.

[00:04:39] It's a ghost theater.

[00:04:40] It's a ghost theater.

[00:04:41] It's a weird place.

[00:04:42] Yeah, I know.

[00:04:43] I saw this at the Islington View.

[00:04:45] If it even still stands, I don't know if it does.

[00:04:47] Anyway, I saw with my friend, my best friend who I probably saw all the Matrix movies with,

[00:04:52] at least the Reloaded.

[00:04:53] And then another kid, Michael Cross.

[00:04:55] Shout out Michael Cross.

[00:04:56] I'm sure he doesn't listen to this.

[00:04:57] He's my old high school friend who had not seen a Matrix movie.

[00:05:01] I remember we sat down, I think just assuming like he at least saw the first one.

[00:05:06] I'm sure he's, you know, and he was like, yeah, so what are these movies about?

[00:05:09] And I was like, wait, have you not seen like a Matrix movie?

[00:05:11] He's like, no.

[00:05:12] So it was fun to watch it through his eyes.

[00:05:14] I've had two experiences like that.

[00:05:17] One, for the fourth running week, I'm going to reference the fact that I recently went

[00:05:21] to Universal Studios in Hollywood.

[00:05:23] Well, you were not recording this podcast.

[00:05:25] So are you waiting for Colleen Atwood to get off her ass and design you a super suit?

[00:05:30] I had a day in between costume fittings.

[00:05:32] Oh ho ho!

[00:05:33] Well, let me just sip some...

[00:05:35] Yeah, all right, go ahead.

[00:05:37] I'm in milk of magnesium.

[00:05:39] What is that?

[00:05:41] It's like old people drink that, right?

[00:05:43] Yeah, someone recommended to me for helping with my IBS and then I looked up and I realized

[00:05:46] it makes you poop more.

[00:05:48] Right, it's like a folky kind of remedy for like being constipated.

[00:05:51] Yeah, I'm not constipated.

[00:05:52] I have the opposite problem anyway.

[00:05:54] I'm like crazy Eddie.

[00:05:55] I have a fire sale on poop all the time.

[00:05:57] Listen.

[00:05:58] Listen.

[00:05:59] Listen.

[00:06:00] I went on the Minions ride, Minions Mayhem.

[00:06:03] Yeah, I saw you tweeting about it.

[00:06:05] You didn't love it.

[00:06:06] Well, I haven't seen any of the movies.

[00:06:08] Yeah, so it was flying over your head you're saying?

[00:06:10] I did.

[00:06:11] Come on but you know they're little yellow guys, they worship tyrants and villains.

[00:06:15] Yeah.

[00:06:16] And they speak in a made up language.

[00:06:18] Sure.

[00:06:19] They got little goggles and little overalls.

[00:06:21] Yeah.

[00:06:22] And they go like banana.

[00:06:23] I'm just saying this ride...

[00:06:24] That's all you know about the Minions.

[00:06:25] This ride was pretty heady, right?

[00:06:26] Because I in the past...

[00:06:28] How long is it?

[00:06:29] It was pretty short because like Shrek 4D, which I have talked about as a fucking sludge

[00:06:34] in a bad movie.

[00:06:35] It's a bad movie.

[00:06:37] I thought that Shrek 4D replaced Terminator 2.

[00:06:39] It did not.

[00:06:40] Minions Mayhem replaced Terminator 2.

[00:06:42] 3D Battle Cross Time.

[00:06:44] An even bigger insult really.

[00:06:46] Bring back Terminator 3D 2 whatever the fuck it's called.

[00:06:49] Well, no because I'll say T2 3D Battle Cross Time is probably my sixth favorite movie of all time.

[00:06:54] And Shrek 4D Blows.

[00:06:56] But the Minions ride...

[00:06:57] Okay, here's what I don't understand, right?

[00:06:59] We should have pilot on for this segment.

[00:07:01] It's gonna be very upset that we're talking about the Minions without her.

[00:07:05] This is the premise of the Minions ride.

[00:07:07] They're gonna turn you into Minions.

[00:07:09] Okay.

[00:07:10] They've developed technology.

[00:07:11] You'll become a Minion.

[00:07:12] Okay, so my question is are the Minions a species or are they a mutation of humans?

[00:07:17] Do you know what I'm saying?

[00:07:18] No, I understand.

[00:07:19] How many Minions come from?

[00:07:20] Are they born?

[00:07:21] How long do they live?

[00:07:22] Are they just us?

[00:07:23] And then the ride's half about that and it's half about the Gru's daughters trying to give them a birthday present?

[00:07:31] Okay.

[00:07:32] The ride... I've never seen a ride this focused around a birthday present.

[00:07:36] I don't do a lot of rides, so you could have told me Star Tours was about a birthday present and I would have believed you.

[00:07:41] Star Tours doesn't fuck like that.

[00:07:44] Alright, let's talk about the Matrix Revolutions.

[00:07:46] We're back onto the Matrix Revolutions.

[00:07:48] The Matrix Revolutions.

[00:07:49] The only thing I did like that was I saw the only born movie I've seen is the Jeremy Renner-born movie.

[00:07:53] Wait, is that true?

[00:07:54] Yeah, which made no sense to me.

[00:07:56] That's crazy.

[00:07:57] So you haven't seen the first three.

[00:07:59] Are you gonna, before Jason Bourne comes out?

[00:08:01] Yeah, it looks really good.

[00:08:02] I saw the trailer.

[00:08:03] They're all good.

[00:08:04] They're all good.

[00:08:05] Yeah, I don't know why I haven't seen them.

[00:08:06] It's a little born miniseries.

[00:08:07] Yeah, sure, whatever.

[00:08:08] Fine, God, sorry I said anything.

[00:08:14] They are pretty interesting in terms of how that was like the hottest shit for a couple years in action movies.

[00:08:19] And then it was like they just dropped it.

[00:08:21] They were like no, no, no, no more like shaky cam, ultra realistic stuff.

[00:08:25] Like forget it, forget it.

[00:08:26] Well even the trailer for the new one...

[00:08:27] Game's Bond is like swerved away from that after swerving into it.

[00:08:30] Technically the trailer for the new one looks more Michael Mann than Pass Greengrass.

[00:08:34] Into it, man.

[00:08:35] Yeah, I think it looks really good but it's not like shaky cam.

[00:08:38] It's sort of the hyper clear digital video.

[00:08:40] How much more shaky cam can we take really?

[00:08:43] The new trailer does have the same action beat as the supremacy I think where he jumps from one window into another window

[00:08:50] but that's just a cute little hat tip I guess.

[00:08:52] Yeah.

[00:08:53] And everyone's taking that beat now.

[00:08:54] Okay, the Matrix, Revolution.

[00:08:56] Yeah, now so last week we talked Reloaded and I did my best to stick up for it.

[00:09:01] I think it's a really interesting movie.

[00:09:03] You weren't very fond of it but I think I did an okay job at least selling you on my perspective.

[00:09:09] You definitely...

[00:09:10] If not converting you.

[00:09:11] You upped the movie's value in my eyes which is a big accomplishment considering I had watched it like fucking 30 minutes before we started watching.

[00:09:18] Sure.

[00:09:19] You were coming in hot.

[00:09:20] Right and I had a pretty conclusive thought on where I stood with the film and then you warped it a little.

[00:09:26] You know, in a good way.

[00:09:27] Sorry, I just got an email about Jeff Richmond.

[00:09:30] Is that his name?

[00:09:31] Husband of Tina Fey?

[00:09:33] Yeah, the music guy.

[00:09:34] You gonna interview him?

[00:09:35] Yeah, I'm gonna interview him.

[00:09:36] Cool.

[00:09:37] Okay, go on, sorry.

[00:09:39] We were saying that we both...

[00:09:44] You hated Reloaded when it came out or you disliked it?

[00:09:48] Disliked Reloaded, I think we were pretty similar where I was like, oh that seems like it wasn't that good.

[00:09:52] It was kind of the phantominess thing where you're like, oh did I not like that?

[00:09:55] And I was looking at the reviews, it was pretty well reviewed.

[00:09:58] It got a 70 something in Rotten Tomatoes.

[00:10:00] And then later everyone decided.

[00:10:01] It was pretty quickly.

[00:10:02] Yeah.

[00:10:03] But it was that thing where everyone's coming out and there had just been so much hype and so much chatter about it

[00:10:07] and it was just pushed so aggressively that everyone was like, ah, I mean they did all the matrix stuff when they were jumping around

[00:10:13] so I guess it was okay.

[00:10:15] And also of course it had a third part to go.

[00:10:18] So we were all thinking like, ah maybe part three will tie it all together.

[00:10:22] Right.

[00:10:23] And then I remember seeing part three and hating it.

[00:10:25] And I remember distinctly...

[00:10:26] Me too, hating it.

[00:10:27] My thought, oh god this is such a stupid line but I'm just gonna say it because I remember that I said this out loud

[00:10:32] probably just because I wanted attention, right?

[00:10:34] The second revolution ends.

[00:10:36] I turned my friend who I saw the movie with and I said what happened to you matrix who used to be cool?

[00:10:43] Like that's how I felt at the time.

[00:10:45] Good job.

[00:10:46] It was so stupid.

[00:10:47] You know what I'm saying?

[00:10:48] Brutal.

[00:10:49] Yeah.

[00:10:50] Did he go, ooh sick burn.

[00:10:51] You got griffin'd.

[00:10:53] You got griffed.

[00:10:55] I hadn't seen it since then, right?

[00:10:57] But I disliked it so much that I sort of gave up on the franchise.

[00:11:01] I degraded, reloaded retroactively without ever watching it again.

[00:11:09] And then yeah.

[00:11:10] Okay, so went back into it yesterday.

[00:11:12] Yeah, I'm trying to remember when it was that I turned around on these movies.

[00:11:16] I think I...

[00:11:17] Honestly it's weird because I can remember seeing them in the theater so clearly and being so disheartened by them.

[00:11:22] A few years later I guess I just rewatched them again.

[00:11:25] I think I saw Speed Racer and felt contrary.

[00:11:29] You know most people didn't like it and I was like no this is good.

[00:11:32] And then I was like hmm do I like all of their movies?

[00:11:35] And I was like maybe I should check out those Matrix movies again and kind of just did a deep dive.

[00:11:40] That I'm still in.

[00:11:41] I'm deep.

[00:11:43] It is weird to think that Speed Racer's their fifth movie.

[00:11:46] Yeah, well I mean it's why they're such good blank check candidates.

[00:11:50] Like that quickly they got to make that movie.

[00:11:53] Okay so the point also that after these movies and them not doing well they were like uh-huh

[00:11:58] well we're just gonna go way crazier.

[00:12:02] But the point is I'm trying to build up here is that we both walked out of Matrix Revolutions

[00:12:07] not disliking the movie but being irate about it.

[00:12:10] Like actually being angry that the film existed.

[00:12:12] And like personally like you did this to us right?

[00:12:14] Yeah and it's like I thought you could you know fix this.

[00:12:18] I thought maybe Reloaded was just like a lot of strands and you were gonna tie it all up.

[00:12:23] This movie is really mean to the audience.

[00:12:26] Like really really cruel to the audience I think.

[00:12:28] Okay so I'm gonna throw down my gauntlet right now.

[00:12:31] I think this movie is better than Reloaded.

[00:12:33] Interesting, I don't but I think you could sell me on that.

[00:12:36] You could sell me on it.

[00:12:37] I was going into this expecting.

[00:12:38] I think I like Reloaded better but I really waiver between the two of them.

[00:12:41] Going into this rewatch and I watched both of the films in one day right?

[00:12:45] Because we're recording all these episodes in one week.

[00:12:47] So you watch like Reloaded in the Morning Revolutions at night.

[00:12:49] Exactly.

[00:12:50] On Thursday yeah okay.

[00:12:51] Right I watched Reloaded in the morning.

[00:12:52] We came in we did a podcast you went home late at night you took in Revolution.

[00:12:56] Exactly right so I watched them very very close together.

[00:12:59] On a day that was all matrix for me essentially like all I did yesterday was eat a bagel.

[00:13:04] And stool for the matrix.

[00:13:06] You ate a bagel you watched the matrix you talked about the matrix you went home you ate another bagel you watched the matrix.

[00:13:11] And now here you are to talk about the matrix.

[00:13:13] It was all bagels and matrix.

[00:13:14] It's funny I just was watching a Subscreener's for VEEP which is coming back this Sunday

[00:13:19] and they were joking about the matrix and I was like huh matrix jokes you don't hear a lot of...

[00:13:24] Yeah yeah.

[00:13:27] What should we call it?

[00:13:29] So I my thought on you know before yesterday's matrix Palooza day.

[00:13:35] I was like with this rewatch I think I'm probably gonna like Reloaded more

[00:13:39] and hate revolutions even more than I did previously.

[00:13:43] I was expecting to get a big positive bump on Reloaded.

[00:13:46] I see you thought this one was gonna be like no right I remember.

[00:13:49] Definitively I was totally right on this.

[00:13:51] No this movie is good too.

[00:13:52] Yeah I mean.

[00:13:53] You can't really like one and hate the other.

[00:13:55] They're very much a part of a whole.

[00:13:57] Here's an interesting theory I want to throw out and it's I vaguely disagree with what you just said.

[00:14:02] Okay.

[00:14:03] I think revolutions almost works as like an alternate sequel to the first matrix rather than Reloaded.

[00:14:10] Interesting.

[00:14:11] I almost feel like the two movies are two different ways to tackle the idea of doing a sequel to this film.

[00:14:15] It's a good argument I like it.

[00:14:16] And there were points where I was watching revolutions where I was like you could add in three lines of dialogue

[00:14:21] and this movie would make sense coming straight after the first matrix.

[00:14:25] Yeah yeah you know you could you could sell me on this I think what you would lose is like any definable role for Morpheus.

[00:14:34] He's barely in this movie.

[00:14:35] I mean he's in it in that you see him but he doesn't really do a single thing.

[00:14:40] Yeah here's lose some stuff.

[00:14:41] Here's my I lose a lot of my favorite stuff so I'd be very upset and sad and I would cry.

[00:14:47] It's interesting that like Reloaded is like all ideas right.

[00:14:55] It's like ideas and then some big fight scenes I guess so but yeah I disagree with you but yeah okay I see what you're saying but it's a big idea movie.

[00:15:03] This movie is like all plot and it's all climax it's like we are everything's going to come to a close now so yeah we're going to do this big climax this big climax this big climax and they're just going to flow right through each other.

[00:15:15] But like Reloaded is like a conversation movie like Reloaded is like my dinner with Andre with some kung fu in it you know.

[00:15:21] Sounds great sounds great.

[00:15:22] I'm not saying this is a negative way.

[00:15:23] This movie has a lot of talk too but it's all like alright so.

[00:15:27] Exactly.

[00:15:28] Explain it to me like in the person's like alright here we go.

[00:15:31] I'm not saying this in a negative way or a positive way I just found this interesting and I just want to I want to go on this on this little tangent here okay.

[00:15:38] So like this movie the dialogue is very like sort of just pragmatic right there aren't a lot of conversations for the sake of conversation they don't get in these larger conversations.

[00:15:49] They're couple.

[00:15:50] The stuff with the Oracle is a little bit but yeah no I know what you're saying.

[00:15:53] Yeah you know but it's much more like this is what you need to do objective based building up to these sort of bigger points.

[00:15:58] I also think we talked in the Reloaded episode about like the innate difficulties in making a sequel to The Matrix because it's like okay you end the film at a point where Neo is perfect.

[00:16:10] So you have three characters who have no vulnerability anymore.

[00:16:12] True right right where the stakes are weird he can do whatever he wants and then this film immediately places Neo in like different situations that are alien to him.

[00:16:22] Yeah I think it falls down a little bit in explaining how just how he overcomes them.

[00:16:28] I agree you know it has because yeah it puts him in some in some in some real binds.

[00:16:33] But that's the interesting point is that like this film is like all movement so you want to step back a few times and go like wait explain to me how this is happening.

[00:16:41] And then Reloaded you want them a few times to be like hey can we do some stuff inside just like talking about it.

[00:16:47] But I do think if they're.

[00:16:49] I think there's a world where as like an inversion of the first Matrix.

[00:16:57] If this was the sequel they said it was set like a year later and you had like three lines of dialogue.

[00:17:04] It's maybe more like eight lines of dialogue specifically placed at points to explain ideas that were covered in the Reloaded in the Reloaded.

[00:17:14] I think it could work as like the Matrix to and I actually think people would have liked this more as to.

[00:17:23] I get what you're saying like it as three or like to reload it is to because it would feel like this is the story continuation we were expecting.

[00:17:32] I got what you're saying no movie could live up to the Matrix I mean I think we've realized that now.

[00:17:38] The sequel to the Matrix which are great but you know what I'm saying.

[00:17:40] No I get what you're saying from an audience perspective but I think you would lose just a sticker for Reloaded which I love you would lose a lot of stuff.

[00:17:46] I mean Reloaded is set mostly in the Matrix this movie is mostly not almost entirely not set in the Matrix which if you go Matrix is to me the most fun part of this whole universe.

[00:17:57] Being in the Matrix that idea right the idea of being in a world that you can you know bend the rules of and interacting with things that are not human.

[00:18:06] But are human and like finding that line between those things you know these are computer programs but they also seem to have evolved consciousness beyond that.

[00:18:14] And it's fun to explore that territory which this movie does right at the start and then it has a lot of stuff to do so kind of drops it.

[00:18:20] My kind of point to you is it's talking about a movie where you're in a bind for the sequel because it's like how do you make Neo interesting if he can do anything he wants in the Matrix.

[00:18:27] I think placing him in the real world is like a good story decision.

[00:18:31] If you're going to make him more vulnerable of course.

[00:18:33] But he has to stay there you know. Yes. And to your point that like you know if you're talking like a person who wants movies to be entertaining in normal ways.

[00:18:41] What are you crazy. Right. I think I think maybe in this is solving your Morpheus problem. Maybe you put Morpheus in the Matrix.

[00:18:49] Sure yeah sure you know I mean it's the classic like you mix in a little Reloaded stuff where it's like in the Matrix they have to go get the blob you know and so Morpheus has an adventure like right.

[00:19:01] Morpheus is getting the key master whatever with Naiobit you know or I still like watching it this time don't understand.

[00:19:09] Keymaker. I think you said he master. Keep on fucking saying that and he's my favorite character the page master. Yeah. That's my favorite movie.

[00:19:16] I do rewatching this film right now right stepping away from my like massive Griff rewrite of the entire idea of this franchise right on just a very simple level.

[00:19:27] I don't understand why they didn't make Morpheus the one leading the like a PC mech suit. It's a good point. I that's a fair point because of course you then have these characters who you barely know.

[00:19:39] Don't really care about. Don't really care about although you know they make some effort to at least be like charismatic but it's all very like straightforwardly cliched like you know the grizzled old captain and the young buck you know like helping him out.

[00:19:53] You have this like cool like robot war that goes on for a really long time but it's like your way you're less engaged in it because you're not with the characters who you've come to like follow for two or three movies.

[00:20:04] Meanwhile the mission that they have Morpheus and Naiobit on is like OK it's like mostly just them sitting in like a cockpit you know yeah it's a problem.

[00:20:14] I mean I think and I mentioned it in the last episode like Morpheus that doesn't really work and Trinity also doesn't get anything to do except spoiler alert.

[00:20:23] Get impaled by a bunch of spikes and die. Yeah I also think the entire thing with a bane in this film doesn't work at all if you've seen reloaded.

[00:20:36] But if you pretend that reloaded doesn't exist and this is the second matrix. Yeah you would need at least a little bit of info on how Smith got into this guy's brain because I watched this with my girlfriend

[00:20:47] and she had seen reloaded but years ago and was just like how how how does he get in his I don't understand how did he get in the real world how tell me how and I was like well he's like in his brain

[00:20:57] and she's like no no no I need more than you saying that. I agree but what I find fascinating about this movie which I totally forgotten is they treat it as like a mystery of like who the fuck is bane.

[00:21:08] Like the scene where bane explains like goes like Mr. Anderson here we meet in the real world there's literally four minutes of me being like who are you what is this what do you it's not possible.

[00:21:20] But he doesn't even say it's not possible until four minutes of four minutes of him being like we're getting to the plot are you finished with your things.

[00:21:26] I'll cover more points as we go through story by story point whatever. Okay now so all right great.

[00:21:32] Matrix Evelishians is a great movie I love it. I like it too that's my point yeah but I think if I it doesn't matter.

[00:21:38] So the movie begins with my favorite part of the movie more Neo did a thing in the last movie he like sent out an EMP from his hand yeah he like use like a real matrix powers in the real world no one can understand how

[00:21:51] and then went to a coma yeah and was sent to train station called mobile Avenue yeah mobile is an anagram of limbo which is I guess just it's kind of like a nothing place it's like where programs are sent when they don't make sense.

[00:22:08] Yeah right and it's this is my single favorite shot in the movie design oh yeah station kind of like a subway station with like white tiles so cool.

[00:22:17] And it gets back to sort of the like great aesthetic stuff in the first matrix which is just like really clean sparse environments well shot you know these sort of very like yeah what's your favorite.

[00:22:29] My favorite shot in the entire film is Neo wakes up in the train platform can't figure out where he is wakes up yells screams gets on the tracks runs and there's a wide shot of him just running in circles like he runs off one side and then five seconds later runs off the other runs back in yeah I love that

[00:22:45] and I love that the track is just two rails there's no like it's just like a little unreal like there's no power line there's no third rail there's no you know notice well you're a big train guy we've established I'm a big train love trains.

[00:22:57] I love trains yeah that's one reason this is this is a cool scene it's up my alley but also Neo meets a lovely Indian couple who are two programs I love that they say what they are he's like I'm like a engineering sub routine and this here's my wife like she's a security system.

[00:23:15] And they are programs that made a baby and the baby doesn't serve any purpose except that they wanted to make her yeah which is like the greatest fucking greatest sci-fi idea I've ever heard I love it.

[00:23:26] A lot yeah the movie you know like both of these movies spends a lot of time explaining that right because the audience I think it's just like oh my god like is anyone going to shoot any like what is going on well here's the other thing the last movie ends with.

[00:23:44] Like the architect totally blowing our minds and then a bunch of action saying like this is all fucking control and not real and yeah yeah yeah.

[00:23:53] And you're like Jesus Christ what's the fallout of this situation can be what is Neo doing response and then he wakes up in a train station talks to a nice family which is I mean it's a classic sequel trick where it's like.

[00:24:04] Well just slow down slow down slow down cuz you know we still have to be a movie and like the good stuff will happen later so.

[00:24:09] Which I like a lot I mean I you know I was sort of getting at this like in the last episode but I sort of believe the best way to make a sequel is not to.

[00:24:20] Necessarily take the next linear step in the story or to the escalation rule that most people apply where it's a go bigger than you did last time you know bring back all the things people like.

[00:24:30] Throw in some new weird rush I think you go parallel I think the best sequels are parallel films where it's like here's a different character or these characters in a different environment you know yeah or a different angle.

[00:24:40] Like the Toy Story trilogy anyway it's a good call in the Toy Story trilogy as much as I don't love three but.

[00:24:47] I agree with you sure is a really good idea for a sequel I think three is half retread half really good new stuff which is why I think three is a great movie as opposed to the best film ever made.

[00:24:58] Which Toy Story one and two are tied for that title but Toy Story two yeah no it's like a really smart like let's just go sideways yeah you know let's just explore different ideas and so is this opening scene you're saying yes I like this a lot.

[00:25:13] Yeah it's good and I almost was like cuz I remember early on I wish it was longer and solved in a more interesting way exactly that's my exact complaint yeah I think that's fair when early rumors are coming out about the matrix sequels and it's like we're getting two of them what are they.

[00:25:27] I remember reading somewhere probably fucking ain't it cool like oh matrix two is about like you know Neo becoming the one you know whatever and then matrix three is Neo gets locked out of the real world.

[00:25:39] Remember hearing something where it was like Neo gets locked up what happens yeah right and I was like that's a cool idea like once again should have gone on for longer you want to put the guy back on his heels you know like.

[00:25:49] Like you want to have him a little disoriented as a character if he's all powerful and I think it's a cool environment I like these new characters not crazy about the performance from the little girl.

[00:25:59] Oh I like her interesting I think she's a little child actor I like it I'm into her I love the couple though yeah Bernard White who plays Ramachandra who's like that the one who does most of the talking yeah the quote unquote father of this quote unquote daughter.

[00:26:16] Is played by Bernard White he's he was in Captain America the winter soldier recently he's like around.

[00:26:21] What are you playing remember how there's like this sort of the council of you know the UN.

[00:26:26] He's like a pretty with Jenny a gutter and powers booth powers booth is in the Avengers he wasn't in Winter Soldier but yeah Jenny a gutter you know yeah those.

[00:26:35] Yeah those people okay and he's just one of those actors who's been on every single television show that ever happened he's good I think he's really good in this.

[00:26:43] You know I mean it's the challenge of you have a lot of information to dump and you're playing a computer program can you give it warm thinking give it personality and make it emotionally engaging and I think he really does.

[00:26:53] I do I think that it's a if you think deep about it it's this brilliant thing where he is emotional he has he has like obvious love for his creation his daughter but he also speaks with like a pretty direct kind of logical sort of tone yeah I think it's a really good performance.

[00:27:11] I also think I also just love the way he talks to me he's like oh I'm a computer program and neo reacts as if he's like oh no I mean of course I'm not one to judge you know computer programs and have children I mean you know nothing.

[00:27:22] There's anything wrong with that exactly like counters is pretty good in this he doesn't countries gets way less to do in this movie than he does in reloaded agree but I think he's really good I think he's good too it's just like he's he gets all this and then he's freed and almost

[00:27:37] immediately just sitting blind in a chair for like the last half of the movie yes which is what it is so they set up that they made a deal with the Oracle because they're the mayor of engine's going to want to clear.

[00:27:48] Yes so this okay so I'll try to explain this this train station is part of the mayor of engines like old backwoods empire in the matrix where like he hides and it's controlled by a program called the train man who was played by Bruce Spence.

[00:28:02] Who talked about me don I know that I was I thought I was going to be the one to have to exciting t on me don in revenge of the city but he also was the gyro copter pilot in the road warrior.

[00:28:13] And you announced this to us on our like on a revenge of the city episode and I think me and whoever the guest was like oh okay.

[00:28:20] I believe he was gathered was the guest like four consecutive episodes whoever we had on as the guest I'd be like do you realize that the gyro copter pilot and they go like what fucking cares big tall weird Australian dude.

[00:28:31] You know pretty good is the train man kind of a little hacky like oh I'm a wit how about you know buddy I love him is fun there was a stat that year where he was in 2003.

[00:28:42] He was in this film he played the train keeper or whatever train man the train man his name he played chum the shark.

[00:28:50] Oh and one of the side.

[00:28:53] Yeah and then he was deleted from return of the king he was going to play the mouth of sorrow.

[00:28:59] This is this is right and I've seen that scene.

[00:29:02] It's the latest in the extended because the eye of sorrow is the thing but they need to speak so he comes out in a horse and he's just like a mouth.

[00:29:07] Guys Lord of the Rings fellowship masterpiece.

[00:29:10] But the towers good return of the king horrible.

[00:29:13] The idea was he was in like three shumongous movies.

[00:29:17] It was that moment like we've said before it was just Australian New Zealand you know the Australasia was just like let's make all the movies here.

[00:29:25] But he was like the highest grossing actor of that year Bruce Spence had like a big 2003.

[00:29:29] Yeah and then of course the range of the siths too so he notched off a lot of franchise years later.

[00:29:33] Yeah.

[00:29:34] Okay so the the Merovingian controls this train station.

[00:29:37] I hate the Merovingian.

[00:29:39] He's a problem in this one.

[00:29:41] He's not good in the second one and he's worse in this one.

[00:29:43] Yeah I just get bummed out anytime they even mention him.

[00:29:46] The Merovingian.

[00:29:47] They call him the Frenchman a lot.

[00:29:49] Yeah I know because his name is like no fun to say.

[00:29:52] Yeah but the Frenchman just feels goofy.

[00:29:54] It's like well he's pretty goofy.

[00:29:56] Yeah I know okay yeah.

[00:29:58] So you know so parallel to Neo stuck in the you know Morpheus and Trinity get they like they run back over to the Merovingians like layer.

[00:30:07] He's in like a bondage club.

[00:30:09] And let's not forget fucking the movie opens and they got Neo on the table and they're talking about it on the coma and then we got this fucking bane right.

[00:30:17] And they're like we don't know what's going on.

[00:30:19] They rescued him from like another ship that crashed.

[00:30:21] And they're like he's got self inflicted wounds what's up with this.

[00:30:24] Yeah and Neo and Trinity and Neo Trinity and Morpheus rather like I don't know let's let's go have some fun.

[00:30:30] Yeah they get a call from Seraph who is the guardian for the Oracle and they all go the three of them go to this club.

[00:30:37] They confront the Merovingian.

[00:30:39] This is like the one classic Matrix sequence in the movie where they put on cool jackets and they have a bunch of guns and there's a bunch of people grow in titties and they have fun.

[00:30:46] There's also a fun little action sequence where people are like jumping from the ceiling to the floor which is cool.

[00:30:51] Columns pretty sexy.

[00:30:53] We go to like another like rave orgy.

[00:30:55] Totally and I mean yeah whatever it looks I mean the costumes are nice.

[00:30:59] There's a real good shot of a crowd scene and there are like several groups of people where it's like one person standing behind another person and just tweak in their nipples.

[00:31:07] There you go.

[00:31:09] And you know Monica Baluchis there she's just sort of sitting there.

[00:31:13] Yeah her and Merovingian look exactly the same except they're red now.

[00:31:16] They're in red.

[00:31:17] Anyway the Merovingian once again is like a Frenchman I am the Frenchman hello how are you doing and he just talks for like five minutes.

[00:31:25] How'd you feel about this Ben?

[00:31:29] Because Ben FYI and well yes you can introduce me to the center.

[00:31:32] Wait Ben's here?

[00:31:33] Ben's here.

[00:31:34] Producer Ben?

[00:31:35] Ben watched this one and not reloaded.

[00:31:37] Produer Ben?

[00:31:38] The Poet Laureate?

[00:31:39] The Haas?

[00:31:40] The Tiebreaker?

[00:31:41] That's me.

[00:31:42] Birthday Benny?

[00:31:43] Sometimes.

[00:31:44] Mr. Positive?

[00:31:45] Yeah today sure.

[00:31:47] What is it?

[00:31:48] It's a tiebreaker it's a Poet Laureate.

[00:31:50] The Fuckmaster?

[00:31:51] Yeah.

[00:31:52] Producer Ben Kenobi?

[00:31:53] Pieper?

[00:31:54] Pieps.

[00:31:55] Kylo Ben?

[00:31:57] Ben Ichamal?

[00:31:58] Wow.

[00:31:59] Yeah yeah.

[00:32:01] Alright wait wait wait are you Professor Crispin?

[00:32:08] No no.

[00:32:09] I almost almost.

[00:32:11] Hello Fennel.

[00:32:12] Hello Fennel.

[00:32:13] So Ben you saw this one and not reloaded.

[00:32:16] Well I had seen Reloaded years ago but yeah this is the first time I saw this film ever.

[00:32:22] So I just just I mean well we can ask you other things too but I just wanted to quickly get your impression of just this scene with the Maravinjean monologuing.

[00:32:30] He's fucking gross.

[00:32:31] Agreed.

[00:32:32] He's so gross.

[00:32:33] He's a bummer.

[00:32:35] Lambert Wilson that's the actor.

[00:32:37] Yeah.

[00:32:38] And it's also like you totally at the same time to see what happens coming like it's so clear that he's just gonna like be annoying and then someone's gonna put a gun on his head.

[00:32:49] It's very true because it's like it almost seems like he's gonna set up the movie because he's like there was one thing that I would like to get Neo back and that is the eyes of the Oracle and you must give them to me and then.

[00:32:59] You're like that's not gonna happen.

[00:33:01] Right and you're just like I feel like this movie's gotta wrap it up I don't know if we're gonna have a whole like let's steal the eyes of the Oracle.

[00:33:07] How does that work he's gonna take her eyes and put it in his head.

[00:33:12] That's crazy.

[00:33:13] He's gonna take her eyes off.

[00:33:16] So it's just feel like an unreasonably big ask.

[00:33:19] Yeah I know it's like dude are you serious.

[00:33:22] The eye.

[00:33:23] Alright so back to this Frenchman thing too because in the second movie they say Maravinjean so much and in this movie everyone just calls him the Frenchman.

[00:33:30] Maybe that was a note they got or something from the reaction where it's like nobody knows what the fuck a Maravinjean is stop saying.

[00:33:37] Also it's a gross word that makes people feel uncomfortable every time you say it.

[00:33:41] So Trinity literally says like I don't have time for this shit points a gun at his head and Monica Bellucci is like oh she'll do it she loves him.

[00:33:50] Yeah and Monica Bellucci is like coming at the suggestion like she's just like she's just a fucking rebel.

[00:33:56] Someone underserved character.

[00:33:59] Am I wrong?

[00:34:00] I mean I might be being crass about it but the idea she seems to be getting off on the fact that like shit's happening.

[00:34:05] She likes passion.

[00:34:06] She likes passion.

[00:34:07] She likes passion.

[00:34:08] You know in the second movie too she likes it when people are emotional because the Maravinjean sort of lacks for emotion except for I guess like spite.

[00:34:14] He doesn't like people.

[00:34:16] Smug is smugness, arrogance and emotion or is it mental state.

[00:34:20] Anyway so the Maravinjean so whatever then they get Neo from the train station.

[00:34:24] Yeah it's resolved way too quickly.

[00:34:27] Yeah it almost feels like they didn't know where to put the break between these two movies.

[00:34:34] They picked the wrong spot but I get that you can't then have this fucking train adventure in the second movie.

[00:34:40] Should they've done it a little earlier or should they have made the train thing longer like you say which I think might have worked.

[00:34:45] Keep it going and like you know what I'm saying like let each movie breathe a little.

[00:34:50] Yeah I get you but I think what happened I don't know but my guess is what happened is like they made the matrix and then they sort of came back together and like thought of a bunch of stuff they would want to do.

[00:34:59] They had a new sequel and had a lot of stuff and said well we'd love to do two movies and they had what a blank check and so thus you know green light.

[00:35:09] But what's weird about it for me is that their plan included like such a finite end you know that they were like well let's set our own goalposts that we have to hit and then we just have to fit everything we have in between these two.

[00:35:19] Why I love these sequels because they tell a complete story.

[00:35:23] But we forgot to say so the idea is that the little girl program would be deleted because she hasn't serve a purpose so they may deal with the mayor of Virginia and that she can go to stay with the Oracle.

[00:35:32] Yeah that she can be smuggled into the matrix by and be in the company of the Oracle.

[00:35:36] She'll be safe there so they're trying to get around the train Neo tries to sneak on.

[00:35:40] Yeah there's a lot of concepts here at work where it's basically just like the way the matrix works is evolving in a lot of ways that the machines can't keep up with right.

[00:35:50] So you've got this thing where programs are becoming so self aware that they have bondage clubs and train stations and they're making babies like what like that's a lot of stuff.

[00:35:59] They're tweaking nipples I mean that's advanced you know what I'm saying?

[00:36:02] To understand nipple play that's because that's a delicate art.

[00:36:05] Then over in the real world you have Neo who is like the same glitch this one that always happens but he seems a little more evolved a little more unpredictable.

[00:36:15] Yeah I like the idea that they're sort of getting at which is like all stories are the same story being told over and over again but this time it's a little different.

[00:36:22] It's evolving every single time a little bit.

[00:36:24] Hey guys could we mention the Oracle's a different person.

[00:36:28] Well no we're going to get to the Oracle and say about that.

[00:36:30] I have a lot of stuff to say about that.

[00:36:32] Ben we're going to talk about the four walls don't worry about it.

[00:36:34] No but the shit alright but I had another point and I totally forgot it fuck Neo.

[00:36:39] The story is changing we're advancing.

[00:36:41] Another thing that's really cool.

[00:36:43] Oh Smith right obviously that's the other thing.

[00:36:45] Agent Smith has turned into a basically a computer virus and is like overwriting all of their software.

[00:36:50] He got like freed from his programming by Neo killing him and instead of just going away he's like you know they can't deal with him either.

[00:36:59] It's like as Neo turns more good and heroic there's like this remainder of the equation as they say like that's like the opposite.

[00:37:06] Yeah okay.

[00:37:08] The next thing is the Oracle.

[00:37:10] Sati goes to the Oracle.

[00:37:12] She makes some cookies with her they make cookies together.

[00:37:15] Neo shows up and she chain smokes.

[00:37:17] She does all the things we remember the Oracle doing from the first movie right behaviorally environmentally it's like exactly the same as the Oracle scene except now it's a new actress.

[00:37:25] Yeah now Gloria Stewart died.

[00:37:27] I understand that.

[00:37:29] She's played by Mary Alice.

[00:37:31] I think this was a humongous mistake.

[00:37:33] Interesting I don't at all.

[00:37:34] I agree I also think it was a mistake.

[00:37:36] This is the mistake I think they made right.

[00:37:38] She shows up they go like who's this.

[00:37:40] I'm the Oracle you're not the Oracle.

[00:37:42] Right.

[00:37:43] This is a conversation with Trinity Amorphias.

[00:37:45] Yeah.

[00:37:46] Well I think she's introduced a little earlier.

[00:37:48] The idea is that the file got corrupted and she had to sort of evolve and she's like you might recognize parts of me but not other parts of me.

[00:37:53] It's actually not to be because this is not explained in the movie.

[00:37:56] The trade that the Indian couple the Indian program couple made with the MeraVinchen was to her outer shell and the MeraVinchen actually references this in his really boring thing where he says like oh the Oracle has an image.

[00:38:07] Oh the Oracle has a new shell too bad.

[00:38:09] So the Oracle sacrificed part of her like programming to let Sati into the matrix and that's why she looks different.

[00:38:16] Now obviously they had to write this on the fly because the fucking actress died so I think you know it's a lot of...

[00:38:21] I understand that.

[00:38:22] Yeah.

[00:38:23] Here's what I would have done.

[00:38:24] Hired a remarkably different actor.

[00:38:26] Yeah I know what you're saying.

[00:38:28] I think hiring someone of like the same age and the same sort of energy level.

[00:38:33] Someone who feels like they're playing like Mary Alice feels like someone else who auditioned for the Oracle.

[00:38:38] Sure.

[00:38:39] Right?

[00:38:40] Against Gloria Foster right?

[00:38:41] Yeah.

[00:38:42] She's very very similar.

[00:38:43] Yeah.

[00:38:44] I think if the idea is going to be like okay someone died we couldn't control that this isn't a creative decision right?

[00:38:50] Yeah.

[00:38:51] This is a necessity.

[00:38:52] Who are you going to replace with with her?

[00:38:53] We need a new actor.

[00:38:54] I would have gotten like a fucking 13 year old Japanese boy.

[00:38:56] No no that would have been awful.

[00:38:58] I would have hated that.

[00:38:59] You're not saying literally that?

[00:39:00] I'm saying I would have just gotten Dennis Franz to play it.

[00:39:03] Do you know what I'm saying?

[00:39:04] Yeah you can't replace a nice old black veteran of the theater world with Dennis Franz.

[00:39:10] My point is that they...

[00:39:11] You're doing good though.

[00:39:12] They have to replace them right?

[00:39:15] Yeah.

[00:39:16] And with this idea like I mean this thing that keeps on coming up in the Wachowskis work of like this sort of transience of the human spirit and the bodies being the outer shell you know and all of this perception versus internal life and all this sort of stuff.

[00:39:27] I think that scene if they're going to be like you look different.

[00:39:30] Well in the reality of movies recastings happen all the time right?

[00:39:34] And fucking Dark Knight like Rachel Dahl shows up and she's Maggie Gyllenhaal and no one's like you look a lot more like Maggie Gyllenhaal than Katie Holmes you know?

[00:39:41] And like Don Cheedle and Terence Howard could not look or sound any more different.

[00:39:45] I can get you of course recasting is happening.

[00:39:47] In this movie it feels like it's just a minor recasting.

[00:39:49] Yeah.

[00:39:50] And then they treat it like they're stunned by her and it's just some...

[00:39:53] She's a different person.

[00:39:54] But she's playing it so similarly if the idea is...

[00:39:56] See here's where I disagree with you.

[00:39:58] I think she's playing it 100% differently.

[00:40:00] That's where I think we disagree.

[00:40:01] I think it's a very similar performance.

[00:40:02] Same looking type, you know same physical type and age.

[00:40:05] Yeah and superficial level they're both old African American women right?

[00:40:09] But I actually think their physical resemblance is less than the similarity in their performance.

[00:40:13] I think the performances are very very similar.

[00:40:15] Yeah I don't agree at all.

[00:40:16] And I think you need like a totally different actor to come in and throw something different on it.

[00:40:19] Point made!

[00:40:20] We get it.

[00:40:21] I get it.

[00:40:22] I don't agree with you.

[00:40:23] We talked about I fucking love Gloria Foster's performance in the first two movies and it

[00:40:27] bumps me out every time because I feel like I'm getting the dollar store version of it.

[00:40:30] Wow I so disagree with you.

[00:40:31] I think Mary Alice is great.

[00:40:32] She's great in this movie, so good.

[00:40:35] You should watch it again.

[00:40:36] I think she's strong.

[00:40:37] Over and over.

[00:40:38] But I think like...

[00:40:39] I think it's a strong performance.

[00:40:41] I think Gloria Foster is just this weird like just fucking bullseye.

[00:40:45] She's great!

[00:40:46] I'm in a place, everything gelbed, she's perfect.

[00:40:48] So good.

[00:40:49] And I think like it doesn't benefit her, Mary Alice and her performance to be playing off

[00:40:54] of like something else.

[00:40:56] You know?

[00:40:57] Can I make my argument?

[00:40:59] Thank you.

[00:41:00] Please.

[00:41:01] Yeah.

[00:41:02] One, my guess is they were like this happened in the middle of filming and they're like

[00:41:05] we cannot change the tone of this, you know, of the writing of this performance

[00:41:10] enough to match like a totally different person.

[00:41:12] It makes more sense for us to kind of get a similar like person.

[00:41:16] She's a grandmotherly figure.

[00:41:17] We need a grandmotherly figure.

[00:41:18] So you cast Dennis Franz and go play it like you're a grandmother stuck in Dennis Franz's

[00:41:22] body.

[00:41:23] No, because that would kill the movie.

[00:41:24] Why doesn't Dennis Franz work more?

[00:41:26] Look, I love it.

[00:41:27] Having just re-watched a bunch of DePaul movie, I love Dennis Franz.

[00:41:30] He stopped.

[00:41:31] He legit like stopped making movies.

[00:41:33] Yeah, it's weird.

[00:41:34] Or TV.

[00:41:35] Like City Angels and then he like pieced.

[00:41:37] I mean, you know, I mean even Dennis Franz could not benefit from the patriarchy enough

[00:41:41] to become a movie star.

[00:41:42] You know, I love Dennis Franz but it's not like they were going to line up a

[00:41:46] bunch of Dennis Franz vehicles.

[00:41:48] I just think the idea is that...

[00:41:54] Dennis Franz couldn't benefit enough from the patriarchy.

[00:42:00] All right, all right.

[00:42:01] Thank you.

[00:42:02] Thank you.

[00:42:03] I'm glad you thought it was funny.

[00:42:05] You're distracting me from my point about Mary-Roy.

[00:42:08] She has to be similar in my opinion.

[00:42:11] It has to be like this continued theme of evolution where it's like, yeah, she's different

[00:42:15] but like not like radically different.

[00:42:17] It's just like she's a little more hard-bitten.

[00:42:19] She's a little quieter.

[00:42:21] She's a little sadder.

[00:42:22] Like, but that doesn't mean like, you know, it's like a completely different person.

[00:42:27] I fundamentally disagree on this point.

[00:42:29] We're never going to be able to convince each other otherwise.

[00:42:31] So let's move on.

[00:42:32] But I also think Mary-Roy is good.

[00:42:33] She's in one of my ten favorite movies ever.

[00:42:37] So that helps.

[00:42:38] Which is that?

[00:42:39] To Sleep with Anchor by Charles Burnett, which is like one of the best movies ever.

[00:42:42] I've never seen that.

[00:42:43] You should check it out because it's great.

[00:42:45] I've seen Killer Sheep.

[00:42:46] Sure, sure of course.

[00:42:48] It was like Charles Burnett's only like vaguely mainstream film with Danny Glover.

[00:42:53] Yes, I know what you're talking about.

[00:42:54] Yes.

[00:42:55] It's basically about like Satan comes to a house and won't leave.

[00:42:58] Like in the form of a really annoying guy.

[00:43:01] Play by Danny Gloves.

[00:43:02] Danny Gloves.

[00:43:03] You put a glove on it.

[00:43:04] Such a good movie.

[00:43:05] So you're telling me the glove does fit in that film?

[00:43:07] The glove fits and you must have quit.

[00:43:09] Well, yeah.

[00:43:10] Must not have quit.

[00:43:11] Whatever.

[00:43:12] Anyway, so the Oracle there's this scene, you know, half an hour into the movie maybe a

[00:43:17] little more.

[00:43:18] Yeah.

[00:43:19] Where Agent Smith comes for the Oracle and he absorbs her.

[00:43:23] Your first her as mother.

[00:43:24] Yep.

[00:43:25] But I take that as sort of like she's the mother of all not like.

[00:43:28] She's the mother of the matrix.

[00:43:30] Like, you know, the architect referred to her as such.

[00:43:33] Yeah.

[00:43:34] So that's the idea.

[00:43:35] That's not like she raised Agent Smith.

[00:43:36] It's not like, right?

[00:43:38] Little Smith.

[00:43:39] Little Smith.

[00:43:40] We'll be cute to do a matrix babies.

[00:43:43] Like a little agent Smith in a little suit with little sunglasses.

[00:43:46] Why did they stop that format of like, let's just make a cartoon show.

[00:43:49] Just babies.

[00:43:50] Yeah.

[00:43:51] Babies was so fun.

[00:43:52] Well, they should do an X-Men spinoff for the X-babies.

[00:43:55] Yeah, they really should.

[00:43:56] I can't believe they haven't done that yet.

[00:43:58] With Disney owning.

[00:43:59] They still have X-Men TV rights, I think.

[00:44:01] Oh, Disney owns the X-Men TV rights?

[00:44:03] No, it's Fox because you spend on Fox kids.

[00:44:06] No, Fox, but fuck.

[00:44:08] Disney bought Fox kids because Fox kids spawn off of Fox,

[00:44:12] which is why ABC Family used to be Fox Family became Freeform.

[00:44:16] Fox is doing a new live action Legion TV show

[00:44:19] and they had to make a deal with Disney to get the rights to do that

[00:44:22] even though they have the movie rights.

[00:44:24] We're all excited for Legion on FX.

[00:44:26] Although they got a good cast.

[00:44:28] They did.

[00:44:29] Dan Stevens?

[00:44:30] Yeah, I don't know why this movie exists.

[00:44:33] There are like two other really good people in it, right?

[00:44:35] Yeah, we're not going to look at a brand new episode.

[00:44:37] And it's Noah Hawley?

[00:44:38] Yeah.

[00:44:39] Did Fargo?

[00:44:40] Yeah.

[00:44:41] I don't love the Fargo show.

[00:44:42] I know you don't and I do.

[00:44:43] X-babies would be a great...

[00:44:46] Let's do it, X-babies.

[00:44:47] And it's fucking Canon.

[00:44:48] It's Canon, David.

[00:44:50] It's executive produced by Mojo.

[00:44:52] Aubrey Plaza, Hamish Linklater, Katie Asselton, like great actors.

[00:44:56] Dan Stevens is a star of Tomorrow.

[00:44:58] Love that guy.

[00:44:59] Yeah.

[00:45:00] I would love a bond, a Stevens bond if you're going to cast a white dude.

[00:45:03] I would too.

[00:45:04] The other one that was thrown out is, I think he could actually do Snake Plisken while if

[00:45:08] they ever do the Escape from New York remake that they should not do.

[00:45:11] They shouldn't do it.

[00:45:12] They shouldn't.

[00:45:13] But, you know, gun to your head, kind of like with Alden Ehrenreich about the Han Solo

[00:45:16] movie or I'm like don't do that but you know, he's not a bad idea if you have to do it.

[00:45:21] Because he's different enough that he's not just going to do an impression.

[00:45:23] Yeah.

[00:45:24] He's not going to do the dollar store Mary Alice version.

[00:45:26] And also he kind of has the Han Solo vibe shop of like, you know, he's kind

[00:45:29] of a little guy, like he's not like a huge imposing guy.

[00:45:32] That's my favorite thing about Alden is that like, yeah.

[00:45:35] He's like my size.

[00:45:37] Yeah.

[00:45:38] And I like the idea of like Harrison Ford was always it's like six foot three or

[00:45:41] whatever and if you're going to make a young Han Solo movie make him scrappy,

[00:45:44] make him an underdog.

[00:45:45] Yeah.

[00:45:46] I think that's a great choice.

[00:45:47] I hope they fucking put a ring on it and cast them.

[00:45:49] Yeah, they haven't made it officially yet.

[00:45:51] At the time this podcast airs hopefully we all know that we're living in a

[00:45:53] better world.

[00:45:54] We're all Ehrenreich.

[00:45:55] It's officially a Han Solo.

[00:45:56] I don't know if a world where they're making a Han Solo prequel is a

[00:45:58] better world but at least with Alden it's better.

[00:46:00] I agree with that.

[00:46:01] We're already living in a world where they're making a Han Solo prequel.

[00:46:04] It's a bad world.

[00:46:05] The world in which he's playing Han Solo is better than the world we're

[00:46:07] currently in.

[00:46:08] We agree.

[00:46:09] Great, I love you.

[00:46:10] We agree.

[00:46:11] I love you too.

[00:46:12] Okay, let's move on.

[00:46:13] So all right, so we've got all the Oracle stuff and there's I just,

[00:46:15] you know, I think this is a scene where at 17 years old I was like,

[00:46:18] oh enough with this movie which is when Smith absorbs the Oracle.

[00:46:22] Yeah.

[00:46:23] And then he goes like, ha ha ha ha ha.

[00:46:25] You know, like Hugo even really has fun with an evil laugh.

[00:46:28] He's just slicing some honey baked in this scene.

[00:46:30] Whoa, boy is he.

[00:46:31] Yeah, he's bathing in the river at hand.

[00:46:33] Why wouldn't he?

[00:46:34] I don't hold it against him.

[00:46:36] I think again there is like a story idea to this which is like Smith

[00:46:39] is like rapidly changing from like the sort of restrained thing that

[00:46:44] we remember from the first movie.

[00:46:45] Like his sunglasses are different.

[00:46:47] His suit changes color which is very hard to tell because it's all

[00:46:49] like greeny gray.

[00:46:50] Yep, did not pick up on that at all.

[00:46:52] And and he's like talking a little like when he talks to Sati

[00:46:55] especially he almost like talks to her like he's a normal person.

[00:46:58] He's like, ah I'm not so bad.

[00:47:00] But this is the thing I was getting at last week.

[00:47:02] If the idea of Smith is changing, I would love it if his look

[00:47:04] changes more dramatically.

[00:47:05] Like I love it if Smith shows up in a graphic tee and like

[00:47:08] dockers.

[00:47:09] He shows up in an hearty.

[00:47:10] He's got penniloe.

[00:47:12] He's got a puka shell necklace.

[00:47:14] So back over back.

[00:47:16] You just like saying puka.

[00:47:18] Yeah, it's fun.

[00:47:19] So back over to the real world where we will now mostly be

[00:47:23] stuck.

[00:47:24] One thing I like is that someone looks at like the matrix and

[00:47:27] the code looks all weird.

[00:47:28] And they're like, what's wrong with the matrix?

[00:47:30] And we're like, we don't know.

[00:47:31] Like Smith's just going around causing mayhem.

[00:47:34] Offscreen.

[00:47:35] Here's another thing.

[00:47:36] Okay.

[00:47:37] So the film starts digital rain.

[00:47:39] The matrix reloaded.

[00:47:40] We go into green code and then we go in further and

[00:47:43] we're in an orange zone.

[00:47:44] Yes.

[00:47:45] And we're seeing a dragon spirals from the opening shot of

[00:47:48] this film, right?

[00:47:49] It's not even a shot from the opening like the credit

[00:47:51] sequence.

[00:47:52] They're establishing a visual language of like, okay, rather

[00:47:55] than the sort of fractally squared off hard edges digital

[00:47:58] rain thing.

[00:47:59] Here's this sort of spirally.

[00:48:01] Yeah.

[00:48:02] You're seeing, do you know what that dragon spirals are?

[00:48:03] No.

[00:48:04] Which it's basically like a mathematics, like a chaos

[00:48:06] theory thing where it's like, you make one line and then

[00:48:08] you make three lines.

[00:48:09] You know, like mathematically it keeps evolving until it

[00:48:11] looks like a completely different thing.

[00:48:13] Okay.

[00:48:14] That's cool.

[00:48:15] It is cool.

[00:48:16] David's showing it to me right now.

[00:48:17] You can Google it.

[00:48:18] Yeah.

[00:48:19] You guys should look it up.

[00:48:20] Chapter one has a little line and like chapter two has

[00:48:23] like that the code keeps it.

[00:48:24] It's cool.

[00:48:25] That's great.

[00:48:26] Yeah.

[00:48:27] It's orange and it's, it's.

[00:48:28] It's orange instead of.

[00:48:29] Narley and.

[00:48:30] Yeah.

[00:48:31] Weird spirally, gnarly stuff.

[00:48:33] Yeah.

[00:48:34] And then Neo's going to see that stuff later.

[00:48:36] Right.

[00:48:37] That's like his viewpoint on the world.

[00:48:38] If he looks into the code of the matrix and he sees

[00:48:40] green code when he looks into the code of the real

[00:48:42] world, he sees that.

[00:48:43] No.

[00:48:44] Does.

[00:48:50] That became somewhat of a popular conspiracy theory or

[00:48:53] like read on the, like one of those fan theory type

[00:48:55] things where it's like, oh, it's all of, it's all the

[00:48:57] matrix.

[00:48:58] That was my read, but I'll also say.

[00:48:59] I think also people, a lot of people thought that at

[00:49:01] the end of reloaded.

[00:49:02] Exactly.

[00:49:03] Right.

[00:49:04] That was the thing at the end of reloaded.

[00:49:05] I thought that so when revolution starts.

[00:49:06] Neo does like a Neo thing.

[00:49:07] Right.

[00:49:08] And it's like, oh wait, maybe we're still in the

[00:49:09] matrix.

[00:49:10] Right.

[00:49:11] So when.

[00:49:12] Dream within a dream.

[00:49:13] Right.

[00:49:14] Which I thought was a cool, a cool area.

[00:49:15] It's like not only has this thing been happening

[00:49:16] for hundreds of thousands of years.

[00:49:17] This keeps repeating its or thousands, not hundreds.

[00:49:18] Hundreds, whatever.

[00:49:19] But it keeps repeating itself over and over again.

[00:49:21] But also even that level, like this is so deep

[00:49:24] you have, you're never going to get to the bottom

[00:49:26] of it, you know?

[00:49:27] But I don't think that's what they were going for.

[00:49:28] I think the reveal that Neo is the one, like

[00:49:31] of one of many, that's what they're going for.

[00:49:33] Right.

[00:49:34] You know, that's the sort of big twist.

[00:49:36] To establish a whole new, like visual language.

[00:49:39] Matrix two.

[00:49:40] It's a little confusing.

[00:49:43] Especially after a movie where we explain a lot.

[00:49:45] It's confusing and not explained.

[00:49:47] Yeah.

[00:49:48] It's the best way to put it.

[00:49:49] Yeah.

[00:49:50] Well, let's get to what?

[00:49:51] Let's get to the, because we're right there.

[00:49:52] So, you know, there's a lot of fighting over like

[00:49:55] we should take this ship there and this ship there

[00:49:57] and the audience is like, I don't even know.

[00:49:59] And they start interrogating Bane.

[00:50:01] They're like, why is this guy cut on his arms?

[00:50:03] Bane and Bane's like, I don't know.

[00:50:05] I'm doing kind of an agent Smith voice.

[00:50:08] But not as good as your impression.

[00:50:09] He would not make mad TV.

[00:50:11] I mean, he wouldn't even get a callback.

[00:50:12] Which you're already, I mean, you're in talks.

[00:50:15] Can I say that or are we allowed to say that?

[00:50:17] You're in the pool.

[00:50:19] They put a pin in you.

[00:50:20] They put a pin in me?

[00:50:21] Yeah.

[00:50:22] What were we going to say?

[00:50:25] So Bane, yeah, Bane's a problem.

[00:50:28] They're trying to deal with him.

[00:50:30] He like in a little side scene,

[00:50:32] he stabs a nice lady with red hair.

[00:50:34] Not nice of him.

[00:50:35] Now we talk about, I feel like the Bane thing is

[00:50:38] this movie trying to have it both ways, right?

[00:50:40] I think they just thought like we need an action beat

[00:50:42] because these movies are very dependent on action beats.

[00:50:44] Maybe almost two, you know, both of them are.

[00:50:46] Like the Wachowskis are obviously like big ideas,

[00:50:48] big ideas, big ideas, and then we'll have an action scene.

[00:50:51] But we talked about last week of like whether or not

[00:50:54] we thought bringing Smith back was the right idea, right?

[00:50:58] Because it makes the world feel a little small.

[00:51:00] So you're saying Bane is them being like

[00:51:02] we brought back Smith but we didn't.

[00:51:04] Yeah, and the way they play this,

[00:51:05] it's like so confusing because it takes Neo

[00:51:08] so long to figure it out and the conversation

[00:51:10] goes on for so long that I'm watching it going,

[00:51:12] are they betting that we haven't figured out

[00:51:14] that he's Smith yet?

[00:51:15] But you already know he has to be Smith.

[00:51:17] No, we know he's Smith.

[00:51:18] Because they fucking end the last movie on him.

[00:51:20] We know he's Smith.

[00:51:21] They put such a fine point on it.

[00:51:22] You have six months to stew on it.

[00:51:23] I think it's more of what's he gonna do, right?

[00:51:24] I think this is the least interesting thing

[00:51:25] about this movie though, so.

[00:51:26] I do too but I almost like the idea of like

[00:51:29] if there wasn't the film in between,

[00:51:31] if this was what happened at the beginning

[00:51:32] of Reloaded or if Revolutions was too,

[00:51:35] I almost like the idea of like Smith is dead

[00:51:37] and then the film starts out and there's a new weird guy

[00:51:39] and you're like what?

[00:51:40] And it's like Smith has transcended this,

[00:51:42] he's gone into the spirit of someone else

[00:51:43] and now the villain is Smith in a new form.

[00:51:45] But the film is doing so many things with Smith

[00:51:49] at the same time, it's like.

[00:51:50] I agree, the main stuff is a waste of time

[00:51:53] and it's also just a sort of story mechanic

[00:51:55] to blind Neo.

[00:51:56] Yeah.

[00:51:57] So okay, so just to rush through the story part quickly.

[00:52:00] They split into two ships.

[00:52:02] They split into two ships.

[00:52:03] What?

[00:52:04] Naomi gives, yes we talked about it.

[00:52:07] Jesus, Naomi gives Neo and Trinity her ship.

[00:52:11] It can't be.

[00:52:12] It's not possible.

[00:52:13] I'm going to respond to everything you're saying is if I'm Neo

[00:52:15] in that scene.

[00:52:16] And then everyone else goes off in another ship.

[00:52:18] But how?

[00:52:19] I don't know.

[00:52:20] And then so Neo and Trinity are going to go to the

[00:52:22] machine city to try and make peace with the machines.

[00:52:26] Impossible.

[00:52:27] That's what they say.

[00:52:29] But Bane has stowed away on that ship.

[00:52:32] He almost, he attacks Trinity but doesn't kill her.

[00:52:35] Really?

[00:52:36] Yes.

[00:52:37] And then he fights Neo and blinds him with like an electrical,

[00:52:42] I don't know, cord.

[00:52:44] No, I won't believe it.

[00:52:46] Well at this point Neo definitely believes it because he is being,

[00:52:49] he can see him.

[00:52:51] They like sear the flesh over his eyes.

[00:52:53] Yeah, it looks gross.

[00:52:54] It looks real gross.

[00:52:55] Real gross.

[00:52:56] But I mean also, and this is what I was talking about earlier

[00:52:58] when I said this movie's really kind of almost mean to

[00:53:00] the audience.

[00:53:01] Who watching at this point is like, are you kidding me?

[00:53:06] The hero guy?

[00:53:07] Yeah.

[00:53:08] He's blind and sad now?

[00:53:10] He's got beautiful eyes, little stairs to them.

[00:53:12] Very nice eyes.

[00:53:13] He's a good looking guy.

[00:53:15] Like that's your move is you're going to, oh, okay.

[00:53:18] Pretty early on in the film.

[00:53:20] Pretty early?

[00:53:21] It's pretty much the end of the first act.

[00:53:22] Pretty early on.

[00:53:24] Jesus.

[00:53:25] And so, and Neo while blind he can still see this,

[00:53:28] the idea I think is that it like elevates his sort of

[00:53:30] consciousness to some new level where he can see into

[00:53:32] the code of the real world.

[00:53:34] So he becomes Matrix Daredevil.

[00:53:36] Yeah, good call.

[00:53:38] And he sees Smith like sunglasses and all in like this

[00:53:43] guy's consciousness and he smashes his head open.

[00:53:47] Yeah, it's weird that the sunglasses are that much a

[00:53:49] part of his being.

[00:53:50] Hey man, he really loves those sunglasses.

[00:53:53] And so now it's like okay, so here's where we are

[00:53:57] with the movie.

[00:53:58] Neo and Trinity, Neo now blind are going to try and

[00:54:01] fly to the machine city.

[00:54:03] So, Naiobi, Morpheus, Link, you know the Harold

[00:54:09] Parano character, a bunch of schmoes.

[00:54:12] Which once again it's like God if that had just been

[00:54:14] Dozer I understand why they didn't want to bring him back.

[00:54:16] Good Lord, three of us in a row.

[00:54:18] I keep on thinking I got it right.

[00:54:19] If that had just been Tank it would be so much easier

[00:54:22] to be invested in that just because like it's so,

[00:54:24] they're putting so much on.

[00:54:26] I like him, I love him.

[00:54:27] I love Parano as an actor.

[00:54:28] I just wish Parano was in the first one almost.

[00:54:30] Like maybe that would make it all better.

[00:54:31] Yeah, that would be better.

[00:54:33] One thing I want to point out, he's really small.

[00:54:36] What are you looking at?

[00:54:37] Something for merchandise spotlight we'll get to.

[00:54:41] There's an actor called, I think his name is Leitchi Holm.

[00:54:45] Do you remember this guy?

[00:54:46] No.

[00:54:47] Okay, he's not in it much.

[00:54:49] He has basically one scene.

[00:54:51] He plays a character called, boy, Sparks.

[00:54:57] And there's a scene where he's like sitting in the

[00:54:59] other ship and they like fire up the engine.

[00:55:01] He's like, can you clean the windshields too?

[00:55:03] He's kind of like a little funny.

[00:55:05] Do you remember this guy?

[00:55:06] Really?

[00:55:07] Yeah.

[00:55:08] For some reason this kid who has kind of a distinct profile

[00:55:13] got thrown into discussion for casting of the Joker

[00:55:16] for the dark night.

[00:55:18] Now it was and it was always hard to tell

[00:55:21] that whether or not this was real

[00:55:25] or like maybe his agent had thrown him into the mix.

[00:55:27] Like somehow had a leak,

[00:55:28] but it would always be like in consideration

[00:55:30] for the Joker and it would be like five names you'd heard of

[00:55:33] and then this fucker.

[00:55:34] And then he'd wash you home.

[00:55:35] Yeah.

[00:55:36] And it was like, it's just,

[00:55:37] and the only thing anyone knew him was,

[00:55:38] was like, well he's kind of funny in like one scene

[00:55:40] of the Matrix Revolutions.

[00:55:42] Can you show me a picture of this guy?

[00:55:44] Geez, that's so weird.

[00:55:47] He's like an Australian actor.

[00:55:48] Anyway, just wanted to mention him.

[00:55:49] Yeah, now I recognize him.

[00:55:50] Because I just remember him from this brief,

[00:55:54] like, you know, internet spasm,

[00:55:57] sort of in the glory old days, you know.

[00:55:59] Yeah.

[00:56:00] And it was weird.

[00:56:01] It was weird.

[00:56:02] Very strange.

[00:56:03] People used to be like, well maybe they'll cast him.

[00:56:06] He's an interesting like, ooh, out of the,

[00:56:08] and everyone was like, what the fuck are you talking about?

[00:56:10] It was one of those things that took on a life of its own.

[00:56:12] It was very hard to tell if it was real.

[00:56:14] It was ever real.

[00:56:15] Yeah.

[00:56:16] Anyway, so he's on that other ship.

[00:56:17] That other ship's going back to Zion

[00:56:19] to maybe rescue Zion.

[00:56:20] Okay.

[00:56:21] Right?

[00:56:22] That's the story now.

[00:56:23] Yeah.

[00:56:24] So let's, now let's move over to Zion.

[00:56:25] Zion's Last Stand, which also makes sense

[00:56:27] as a plot for The Matrix 2.

[00:56:29] Totally.

[00:56:30] You know, like Matrix 1 is about like fucking taking down

[00:56:33] The Matrix.

[00:56:34] Matrix 1 is about fucking Zion.

[00:56:36] We haven't seen it yet.

[00:56:37] Yeah.

[00:56:38] No, I'm saying this.

[00:56:39] And then you're saying Matrix.

[00:56:40] As a direct sequel, it makes more sense than as the third film.

[00:56:42] Yeah.

[00:56:43] Well, I think their argument is like, well,

[00:56:44] in Matrix 2, you meet Zion and you get to like it

[00:56:47] or whatever.

[00:56:48] I don't know if that's true.

[00:56:49] But they're trying to make you like it.

[00:56:50] They take a stroll.

[00:56:51] My roommate Alec pointed this out to me last night.

[00:56:53] He was like, what's with Zion?

[00:56:55] It's all either young people, like teens to 20s,

[00:56:58] and then old people.

[00:56:59] Where are the middle-aged people of Zion?

[00:57:01] Where are they?

[00:57:02] Also, their clothes are all dirty.

[00:57:04] They don't have any laundry beds.

[00:57:07] What's going on?

[00:57:08] Everybody's dirty.

[00:57:09] The poet laureate.

[00:57:11] Himself.

[00:57:12] Oh boy.

[00:57:13] Boy, are they dirty people.

[00:57:14] Yeah.

[00:57:15] Very dirty.

[00:57:16] But anyway.

[00:57:17] So yeah, well whatever.

[00:57:18] And then in third, you now you're invested in Zion

[00:57:20] and you want it defended.

[00:57:21] Now I don't think that works.

[00:57:22] I think you're like Zion Schmion.

[00:57:24] Yeah.

[00:57:25] Who gives a shit?

[00:57:27] And it also feels like the time we spend in Zion,

[00:57:29] the second way feels like you're spending too much time

[00:57:32] in a ret.

[00:57:33] You're like get the fuck out of here.

[00:57:34] Boring.

[00:57:35] You're on a road trip and you spend like two hours

[00:57:36] at a rest stop and you're like can we get back on the road?

[00:57:38] Yeah, you're like at the Albany bus station

[00:57:40] like trying to transfer somewhere.

[00:57:41] Right.

[00:57:42] Because nothing interesting happens in Zion.

[00:57:43] Whereas in this movie they give us like this big action

[00:57:45] sequence that takes place with characters

[00:57:47] we don't care about.

[00:57:48] That's the problem.

[00:57:49] Now I would say especially re-watching this.

[00:57:51] I remember when I saw it the first time in theaters

[00:57:53] I was like that was boring and I hated how

[00:57:55] cliched the old captain was.

[00:57:57] It's very unengaging.

[00:57:58] I think for a robot fight, which I love robots.

[00:58:01] No, I think it's good.

[00:58:02] I now like it a lot.

[00:58:03] More importantly I think it looks great.

[00:58:05] Yeah.

[00:58:06] You think it just looks fine?

[00:58:07] I think it looks really good compared to what things

[00:58:09] look like now.

[00:58:10] Yeah, yeah.

[00:58:11] You're saying like the actual quality of the effects

[00:58:14] and everything.

[00:58:15] Yeah, totally.

[00:58:16] I think it looks good.

[00:58:17] I just think like the Wachowskis are really underrated

[00:58:19] as action directors at this point.

[00:58:21] They are.

[00:58:22] They do very clear stuff.

[00:58:24] Great.

[00:58:25] The sequence doesn't...

[00:58:26] I don't know.

[00:58:27] So wait, why do you like this movie better than Reloaded?

[00:58:29] You don't seem very hot on any of it.

[00:58:31] Here's the thing.

[00:58:32] I intellectually respect Reloaded more.

[00:58:36] I think as a piece of storytelling this is

[00:58:39] more engaging and more satisfying.

[00:58:41] But if you don't like this sequence then I'm not sure

[00:58:44] because that's a lot of the movie.

[00:58:46] The Neo stuff kind of works for me in this film.

[00:58:48] I like Neo's story in this film.

[00:58:50] Okay, alright.

[00:58:51] Yeah.

[00:58:52] So at least just briefly, the Zion Defensi.

[00:58:54] Yeah, they're in these mech suits with two guns.

[00:58:56] I don't love the mech suits but I also fucking love robots.

[00:58:58] Any movie that has robots gets knocked up.

[00:59:00] I think the mech suits are real cool.

[00:59:01] I mean it's anime influenced much like a lot of their stuff.

[00:59:04] Like this is right out of like a lot of anime series

[00:59:07] where it's like you know guys in mecha suit.

[00:59:09] Yeah, I also want to see someone.

[00:59:11] I feel like all the mech suits we've had in films

[00:59:13] in like American live action movies

[00:59:15] have all had like a pretty similar design.

[00:59:17] I want someone to come in with like a new fucking

[00:59:19] crazy form of mech suit, you know?

[00:59:21] What before this are you thinking of?

[00:59:23] The power loader and aliens.

[00:59:25] Great stuff.

[00:59:26] And after this the APC thing.

[00:59:28] No, of course.

[00:59:29] After this.

[00:59:30] Avatar.

[00:59:31] Yeah, I just think they're always like sort of a similar

[00:59:33] sort of like shape and build.

[00:59:35] I think they're cool on this.

[00:59:36] I like their guns and I like the chains of bullets

[00:59:39] that they're...

[00:59:40] Yeah.

[00:59:41] I like how they look.

[00:59:42] I like how they move around.

[00:59:43] I like the squids a lot.

[00:59:44] Yeah, the sentinels are cool.

[00:59:45] And I like what they look like is like weird

[00:59:47] like flowing rivers of you know metal.

[00:59:49] Babyface Edmonds.

[00:59:50] Yeah, it's great.

[00:59:51] Yeah.

[00:59:52] You want to get the babyface?

[00:59:53] Well, we'll get there.

[00:59:54] But I agree with you that the downside is it's like

[00:59:57] Captain Mifune and the kid.

[01:00:00] Those characters you don't know.

[01:00:02] The kid fucking sucks.

[01:00:03] The kid is like out of like a Johnny Tsunami.

[01:00:05] He's like a Johnny Tsunami side character.

[01:00:07] Clayton Watson is the actor.

[01:00:08] I don't...

[01:00:09] You haven't heard that name again for a reason.

[01:00:10] First of all they make a big point of him being 16.

[01:00:12] He's clearly 29.

[01:00:14] Yeah, yeah, that's a good point.

[01:00:15] So it's like a 29 year old trying to play a kid.

[01:00:18] He's now 39.

[01:00:19] Right, right.

[01:00:20] So like he was like 27 or whatever.

[01:00:22] Yeah, he was in his 20s.

[01:00:23] Right.

[01:00:24] And like the way he plays 10 years younger than he is

[01:00:27] it's just by going like gee whiz Mr. Mifune.

[01:00:29] Like he's like...

[01:00:30] Do you know what I'm saying?

[01:00:31] It's like a real like Eddie Haskell performance.

[01:00:34] Yeah.

[01:00:35] Yeah, now I think Nathaniel Lees who's like a

[01:00:37] Samoan actor who plays Captain Mifune

[01:00:40] is like kind of fun and cool to look at.

[01:00:42] He's got a great face.

[01:00:43] Got a great face.

[01:00:44] He's got a cool presence.

[01:00:45] Nice, nice like accent.

[01:00:48] You know just like he's finding it but you're just like

[01:00:50] well but who is this guy?

[01:00:51] I haven't spent a time with this guy.

[01:00:52] And it's very just hacky, grizzled like army captain.

[01:00:55] He might as well have a cigar.

[01:00:57] Now...

[01:00:58] How cool would it be if Morpheus was fucking in that suit leading the troops?

[01:01:00] I agree with that.

[01:01:01] Especially after reloading is everyone being like

[01:01:03] I don't know if we should trust Morpheus.

[01:01:04] Especially since I guess for the story

[01:01:06] it would make a little less sense.

[01:01:07] But Harry Lennox who doesn't like Morpheus

[01:01:09] could just be like just go get in a fucking, you know, A.P.C.

[01:01:12] Yeah.

[01:01:13] Yeah.

[01:01:14] I was just about to say though Mifune doesn't...

[01:01:16] Stephen Lang does the same bit in Avatar.

[01:01:19] Like I'm a grizzled little cigar jump and he nails it.

[01:01:21] In a very similar...

[01:01:23] He's great.

[01:01:24] So it can work, it can work.

[01:01:25] In like the same suit with the chain of bullets and everything.

[01:01:28] And we also there's like a weird side mission

[01:01:31] of what's her name?

[01:01:33] A known gaze character Z.

[01:01:35] And this super hot butch lady.

[01:01:37] Yeah some new friend of her.

[01:01:38] I don't know who she is but she's cool.

[01:01:39] Some like new switch you know?

[01:01:41] No.

[01:01:42] You can't replace switch.

[01:01:43] There's only one switch.

[01:01:44] There'll never be another switch.

[01:01:45] So it's time to place.

[01:01:46] I just, I'm desperately looking for a switch anywhere I can find.

[01:01:49] But they have like a side mission of trying to defend the gaze.

[01:01:52] Yeah they're making some homemade bombs and then they have like a rocket launcher.

[01:01:55] We also have a really spanned off time with her.

[01:01:57] Well also like the...

[01:01:58] And is this something my friend, our friend David,

[01:02:01] talks about a lot which is like sort of the location needs to make sense

[01:02:05] and the geography of Zion needs to make sense.

[01:02:08] And they're like attacking the drills

[01:02:10] and it's not clear.

[01:02:11] It's like are we above?

[01:02:13] Okay.

[01:02:14] It is?

[01:02:15] Yeah.

[01:02:16] And it never makes any sense.

[01:02:17] They just have to shoot the missiles at some drills.

[01:02:19] Yeah I pretty much like all the non-Zion stuff in this movie.

[01:02:23] I think the Zion stuff looks good.

[01:02:25] I like the designs of most of the things.

[01:02:28] I don't love it but like B minus like fun enough,

[01:02:30] like the non-Zion stuff.

[01:02:32] There's a lot of it.

[01:02:33] There's a lot of it.

[01:02:34] And you know, yeah that's a problem.

[01:02:37] Yeah.

[01:02:38] And then you're cutting to Morpheus and Naiobi

[01:02:42] piloting their hovercraft like through the sewer system

[01:02:46] to try and get back to Zion.

[01:02:47] That also goes on too long.

[01:02:49] It just feels like pick your battles.

[01:02:50] Like if you want us to care about what Morpheus is doing

[01:02:52] and you want us to care about Zion,

[01:02:54] put them together.

[01:02:55] Put them together, you know?

[01:02:56] And it's like it's a lot of time wasted on something

[01:02:59] that like the hovercraft eventually gets there.

[01:03:01] They like detonate their EMP and take out a bunch of squids

[01:03:04] and then the reaction is like yeah great, more are coming.

[01:03:07] So you know, who cares?

[01:03:10] Like and we're like we just watched 20 minutes of them

[01:03:12] fucking flying through the sewers in a race against time

[01:03:15] to get there.

[01:03:16] Yeah, there's also this thing of like

[01:03:18] Naiobi gets a lot more screen time in this movie.

[01:03:21] I think Jada is great.

[01:03:22] Love Jada.

[01:03:23] I love Jada and let's just quick Jada corner here.

[01:03:26] Like Chris Rock made that bid at the Oscars about like

[01:03:29] you know that's like saying like you're not going to go

[01:03:31] to the Super Bowl when no one asked you to go or whatever.

[01:03:33] Perfectly good joke directed maybe at the wrong person.

[01:03:35] I like the idea of that joke.

[01:03:37] Yeah.

[01:03:38] But the problem of it is I think Jada Pinkett

[01:03:40] should have been nominated.

[01:03:41] Is one of the most underrated actresses.

[01:03:43] Absolutely.

[01:03:44] Like agreed that she wasn't even in the Oscar conversation

[01:03:46] so her protesting is kind of silly.

[01:03:48] But on the other hand, the fact that she wasn't even

[01:03:50] in the Oscar conversation is the entire reason why

[01:03:52] the Oscars are fucked up right now.

[01:03:53] Like I think she's should have been nominated

[01:03:55] for collateral.

[01:03:56] I think she's so fucking good in that movie.

[01:03:58] I just yeah I'm just going to run down a few

[01:04:00] great Jada performances.

[01:04:01] Magic Mike XXL is I mean incredible exceptional performance.

[01:04:04] Set it off which have you ever seen that movie?

[01:04:07] It's a terrific movie.

[01:04:08] She's maybe the best part.

[01:04:09] Queen Latif is incredible in it too.

[01:04:11] But great cool like heist movie from the 90s.

[01:04:14] What else is she good in?

[01:04:15] She's really good in Bamboozled.

[01:04:17] Yeah.

[01:04:18] Where she plays like the sort of militant sister

[01:04:20] of the main of the Damon Wayans character.

[01:04:22] Love that performance.

[01:04:24] She's great in Ali.

[01:04:25] Yeah.

[01:04:26] And has like electric chemistry with Will Smith.

[01:04:28] Yeah surprisingly.

[01:04:29] Menace to society.

[01:04:30] Yeah right that was the start of her career.

[01:04:32] Yeah.

[01:04:33] Love that movie.

[01:04:34] I love her in collateral like you say.

[01:04:36] And you know then she basically kind of stopped making movies.

[01:04:39] Yeah she did Hawthorne for like six years?

[01:04:41] No that was two years.

[01:04:43] That wasn't a long run.

[01:04:44] That was like six years.

[01:04:45] Since collateral she's done the Madagascar movies.

[01:04:49] Right.

[01:04:50] She did XXL and she did Rain Over Me.

[01:04:53] She's like the third lead in that movie.

[01:04:54] Oh she's good in that.

[01:04:55] She is.

[01:04:56] It's an underwritten part but she's good in that.

[01:04:58] Let us not forget her metal band Wicked Wisdom.

[01:05:01] Yeah okay Ben yes thank you.

[01:05:03] Oh she was in Gotham.

[01:05:04] Of course.

[01:05:05] For a year.

[01:05:06] Of Fishmooney.

[01:05:07] That's Fishmooney.

[01:05:08] You know about Jada Pinkett Smith's shredding new metal band right?

[01:05:11] I vaguely have I'm aware that she is in a new metal band.

[01:05:14] She's the front woman for a new metal band under an alias right?

[01:05:17] She was a different name.

[01:05:18] Yeah she wears a dread wig.

[01:05:19] Yeah it's a Wilfred Brimley is her.

[01:05:21] No no.

[01:05:22] She dresses like Rob Zombie.

[01:05:23] She's got like dread wig and you can't see her face and she wears like UFO pants.

[01:05:26] Do you think that was an influence by the Wachowskis or that's why they first

[01:05:30] started to be friends?

[01:05:32] Great question.

[01:05:33] Which came first?

[01:05:34] The chicken or the egg?

[01:05:35] I just want to say me and my brother Wicked Wisdom that's a great pull Ben.

[01:05:39] Her name in the band is Pocket Honor.

[01:05:42] Thank you.

[01:05:43] Well well.

[01:05:44] I knew that was worth digging up.

[01:05:46] Yeah she looks cool.

[01:05:47] She looks like Rob Zombie right?

[01:05:49] I mean she basically just looks like a slightly crazier Jada Pinkett Smith but you know.

[01:05:54] But like a Jada Pinkett Smith who's like fucking down to hacky sack.

[01:05:57] He also directed a movie called The Human Contract starring Jason Clark and Paz Vega that I've

[01:06:02] literally never heard of.

[01:06:03] Really?

[01:06:04] She wrote and directed it in 2008.

[01:06:05] Jesus Christ.

[01:06:06] I just want to say me and my brother saw Rain Over Me in theaters.

[01:06:09] It's a weird movie.

[01:06:10] Very weird.

[01:06:11] It's about a 9-11 survivor you know his family was killed in 9-11 who plays the

[01:06:16] PS2 game Shadow of the Colossus a lot.

[01:06:19] And he reacts to the tragedy by becoming Tim Burton visually.

[01:06:23] Yes.

[01:06:24] And he said but it's incredible how much of the movie is about him playing the game Shadow

[01:06:28] of the Colossus.

[01:06:29] And then there's a court scene at the end where BJ Novak is a lawyer who's trying to do something

[01:06:34] bad to him.

[01:06:35] I don't even know what maybe take a kid from him or something.

[01:06:37] I believe and Donald Sutherland is the judge?

[01:06:39] Is that right?

[01:06:40] This is what I'm getting to.

[01:06:41] Don Cheadle is the lawyer representing his friend.

[01:06:43] He's representing him.

[01:06:44] I'm sad.

[01:06:45] Donald Sutherland out of nowhere plays the judge.

[01:06:47] Not the judge of judging the judge is the judge.

[01:06:49] I'm the judge.

[01:06:50] But he's the judge.

[01:06:51] I'm the judge.

[01:06:52] And there's a scene.

[01:06:53] I'm Donald Sutherland.

[01:06:54] I'm the judge.

[01:06:59] And it's Sutherland at his most like bushy eyebrowed you know like you know it's Adam Sandler.

[01:07:04] Come on come on man come on run with my story.

[01:07:07] He's Tim Burton that's the end of it that's the end of it.

[01:07:09] Okay but you know what I mean when Sutherland really eyebrows out you know when he really

[01:07:14] lets them grow out.

[01:07:16] The Pussy Willows?

[01:07:17] The Sutherland Pussy Willows?

[01:07:19] He really like droops.

[01:07:20] He's like oh let's still talk about face droop this time.

[01:07:23] And in the scene he turns on BJ Novak and like starts to side with Adam Sandler I guess.

[01:07:29] Like you know he's finding a lot of sympathy in this argument that's being made.

[01:07:33] And BJ Novak says something and he just turns to me and goes shut up shut up shut up.

[01:07:39] And me and my brother would do that to each other for years.

[01:07:43] It is bonkers.

[01:07:44] It's like out of nowhere.

[01:07:45] I hit myself in the face with my microphone laughing at that.

[01:07:48] Shut up.

[01:07:49] I was so taken aback by that.

[01:07:51] I hit myself in the tooth.

[01:07:53] Anyway so Jada we love Jada Pinkett Smith.

[01:07:55] She's great.

[01:07:56] Do you have a note on Naiobi on her performances Naiobi?

[01:07:59] Well okay so you know this franchise starts becoming a lot about love.

[01:08:03] Like the Neo Trinity relationship becomes like a big fulcrum for these films to work

[01:08:09] emotionally right two and three.

[01:08:11] And then the idea for three is like let's put Morpheus in a very specific mission where he spends a lot of one on one time with Naiobi.

[01:08:18] Sit next to each other.

[01:08:19] All four of these characters Neo Trinity, Morpheus and Naiobi are so fucking stoic and emotionally reserved.

[01:08:29] Look the real world is a sad place.

[01:08:31] Impenetrable you know.

[01:08:32] Yes.

[01:08:33] So the idea is supposed to be like oh here's two people who are in love and will sacrifice anything.

[01:08:36] Here are two people who can't admit how they feel for each other.

[01:08:38] Right that's the thing with Morpheus and Naiobi right is that they're too busy and I guess I'm not a, I don't really care.

[01:08:45] I like the computer program.

[01:08:46] I don't either.

[01:08:47] I don't either.

[01:08:48] That's what I'm saying.

[01:08:49] I think Jada's cool.

[01:08:50] I do too.

[01:08:51] And I like that in this movie she just takes her shirt off and she's in like her kind of undershirt and she's just like working hard.

[01:08:55] I just think it's a little bit of a miscalculation to be like the thing we should do with Morpheus is make his entire subplot about spending time with Naiobi.

[01:09:02] Now I'll say it's nice to see the man take a back seat for a change I guess.

[01:09:07] But it's not like Naiobi gets a lot.

[01:09:09] No.

[01:09:10] Like in comparison to him she just is doing the action which is driving the car essentially.

[01:09:14] You know she's piloting this.

[01:09:16] They're like both splitting one sleeve of saltines for dinner.

[01:09:20] Do you know what I'm saying?

[01:09:21] And she gets a little, a few more saltines.

[01:09:23] She gets more saltines but it's like come on this is a fucking dinner.

[01:09:25] What are you talking about?

[01:09:27] Good call.

[01:09:28] So like it's saltines.

[01:09:30] A sleeve of saltines.

[01:09:31] A sleeve of saltines.

[01:09:32] So that's Zion.

[01:09:33] Moving back over to Neo and Trinity they journey to the machine city.

[01:09:38] The logic again geography we don't understand this.

[01:09:42] No, Neo is super blind.

[01:09:43] We don't understand where the city is in relation to Zion.

[01:09:45] And he's just like kind of that away.

[01:09:47] And so Trinity's like I trust you we're going to go that way.

[01:09:50] Because he's seeing the orange.

[01:09:51] They go to the machine city and there's like this attack of squids and Neo just like puts his hand out and blows them all up.

[01:09:58] But there's still so many of them.

[01:10:00] There's a lot of them.

[01:10:01] So they go up above the clouds.

[01:10:04] Yeah, Griffin's making a face that is a fair face to make.

[01:10:07] And basically you emerge from the clouds and it's like a Renaissance painting for one second.

[01:10:12] It's like fluffy golden clouds and a sunshine and like it's like this is what the world is like below this above the scorched sky.

[01:10:19] Now is the implication that because the sun is up right?

[01:10:22] It's like a beautiful full sun.

[01:10:24] Yeah.

[01:10:25] So it's like, oh this is day.

[01:10:27] Is the implication that the robots created so much?

[01:10:30] This is human's question.

[01:10:31] That we create so much pollution that we can't see the sun anymore?

[01:10:34] No, no, it's a bio weapon.

[01:10:35] It's in the animatrix so we'll get to it.

[01:10:37] We detonated like a nano bomb into the clouds and just accelerated pollution to such an extent that like the clouds never go away.

[01:10:44] Now we have super clouds.

[01:10:45] We're just blanketed in robot clouds basically.

[01:10:47] Okay.

[01:10:48] It's cloud two hyper cloud.

[01:10:49] Exactly.

[01:10:50] Callback.

[01:10:51] You know what?

[01:10:52] You really got it.

[01:10:53] Thank you.

[01:10:54] Yeah, I mean this moment.

[01:10:56] Yeah well the real problem is Trinity goes beautiful.

[01:10:59] Just like okay, alright.

[01:11:01] Neil can't see it because he's fucking blind.

[01:11:03] Everything already looks like the sun to him.

[01:11:05] It's a fair point.

[01:11:06] Neil's vision is like when you stare at the sun for a while and you close your eyes and you see the remnants.

[01:11:10] You know that's like what he can see now.

[01:11:12] Well that's Trinity's little special moment before the ship crashes and she gets impaled on a bunch of tendrils.

[01:11:17] Yeah they all puncture.

[01:11:18] I totally forgotten this had happened by the way.

[01:11:20] Trinity dies?

[01:11:21] Yeah.

[01:11:22] You just don't remember that she dies.

[01:11:23] Well that's a real implication.

[01:11:25] That's just a real indictment of how crappy your story is in this movie.

[01:11:29] You don't even remember what it is and that it ends with her death.

[01:11:32] She essentially just becomes Neo's chauffeur for most of this movie because he's blind.

[01:11:36] She's blind.

[01:11:37] I mean he needs a chauffeur.

[01:11:38] Yeah.

[01:11:39] He says you're gonna need to fly.

[01:11:40] It's okay now.

[01:11:41] Drive Miss Daisy now.

[01:11:42] You're the blind guy in the back.

[01:11:43] Neo is Miss Daisy.

[01:11:44] Right yeah.

[01:11:45] Hoke.

[01:11:46] Is that his name?

[01:11:47] Hoke?

[01:11:48] What's Morgan Freeman's name?

[01:11:49] Oh I don't know.

[01:11:50] Hoke.

[01:11:51] Hoke.

[01:11:53] Okay.

[01:11:54] We should do 10 episodes on Drive Miss Daisy.

[01:11:56] Should we though?

[01:11:58] Potting Miss Castee.

[01:12:00] Talk about a movie that has been forgotten.

[01:12:05] Like it does not discuss much anymore.

[01:12:07] Well I don't think it's forgotten.

[01:12:08] I think everyone was like let's pretend that we really pulled an arm in Tom's area on

[01:12:12] that movie.

[01:12:13] Do you know what I'm saying?

[01:12:14] It's not like it slipped away.

[01:12:15] We were like let's pretend that we never saw that.

[01:12:18] I just got an email about a high school musical for open audition if you're interested.

[01:12:23] What's the age range that you're looking for?

[01:12:25] I don't know.

[01:12:26] I can't sing or dance.

[01:12:27] Do you think that's relevant?

[01:12:29] Possibly.

[01:12:30] Okay.

[01:12:31] Yeah I don't know.

[01:12:33] So Trinity Dies it sucks.

[01:12:35] Yeah it blows.

[01:12:37] It's a long death scene.

[01:12:38] She has like a 20 minute speech.

[01:12:39] She basically starts with like I have a dream.

[01:12:42] You know it's just like we're gonna be here for a while.

[01:12:45] Can I say something though?

[01:12:47] I think her performance here is very good.

[01:12:50] She's a good actress.

[01:12:51] This is what I like about it.

[01:12:52] Good actress.

[01:12:53] She's not overplaying the death.

[01:12:54] No.

[01:12:55] A lot of people when they're doing death scenes play the pain.

[01:12:58] That thing.

[01:12:59] And she's just playing that she's weak.

[01:13:00] It's like she's falling asleep.

[01:13:01] It's leaving her you know the fluids are leaving her.

[01:13:04] Exactly and it's just she's very sedated the whole thing's in an actual whisper

[01:13:08] and she's really focused.

[01:13:09] You know she knows she has a little time left and she wants to say what she has

[01:13:12] to say.

[01:13:13] I think she does a really good job with this.

[01:13:15] It goes on very very long.

[01:13:17] Quite long.

[01:13:18] I like stood up went to the bathroom came back because I've seen this movie a million

[01:13:21] times and it was still going on and I was like wow it's wow it's really that long.

[01:13:26] I wish I had saved my pretzels.

[01:13:27] I ate them all during the burly.

[01:13:29] Should have gotten more pretzels.

[01:13:30] Burly burly yeah I should have yeah.

[01:13:31] So Trinity's dead and I think the real reason it's a bummer is it just doesn't

[01:13:35] seem to serve any purpose larger purpose in the story.

[01:13:37] No she could have stayed alive.

[01:13:39] I mean she could have stayed alive could not I mean I guess it would have

[01:13:42] been hard for her to get back after Neo's end in this movie.

[01:13:45] I'm going to ask one of the sentinels be like hey can I.

[01:13:48] Hey can I get you ride?

[01:13:49] Do you got like a squid I can mount?

[01:13:51] She rides on the back like Falcor.

[01:13:53] Sounds good actually.

[01:13:54] Yeah.

[01:13:55] Matrix 4 right?

[01:13:56] Squid Falcor.

[01:13:57] Yeah.

[01:13:58] And then Neo goes to the machine city and some squids a lot of squids come

[01:14:03] out of some holes in a machine.

[01:14:06] Yeah they're all going to attack him and then he's like oh wait wait wait

[01:14:10] he's like I just want to say something.

[01:14:13] And so you know as you do these squids form the shape of a you know

[01:14:19] skyscraper sized baby face.

[01:14:20] Yes.

[01:14:21] Wait what size?

[01:14:22] Skyscraper sized very big.

[01:14:24] Huge you could say like a huge baby face.

[01:14:28] The scale is large.

[01:14:29] I love it.

[01:14:30] I was very excited.

[01:14:31] So Ben were you kind of like a little sleepy for this whole movie

[01:14:34] and then you're really perked up for this scene two hours in?

[01:14:36] Yeah because I also I didn't like that it was just like

[01:14:39] the same sentinels like they didn't mix it up.

[01:14:42] Too much squids too many squids.

[01:14:43] It was boring but then they put them all together made a giant baby

[01:14:48] faced sentinel thing and I was all of the words.

[01:14:52] Yes they did.

[01:14:53] I love it.

[01:14:54] Thank you.

[01:14:55] What can you say?

[01:14:57] You hear that Lana and Lily Wachowski.

[01:15:00] Ben thanks you for your work for your contributions to big cinema.

[01:15:05] I appreciated it in a big way.

[01:15:09] When we release a book under our blank check press our imprint right?

[01:15:14] Ben's book the collected you know film criticism of Ben Hosley

[01:15:18] will just be called Big Cinema right?

[01:15:19] That'll be his big contribution to the landscape of film criticism

[01:15:24] is Big Cinema.

[01:15:25] Absolutely.

[01:15:26] The collected writings of Ben Hosley.

[01:15:28] Oh boy.

[01:15:29] Not big enough.

[01:15:31] Ben's complain is that the books not like coffee table.

[01:15:37] You need a coffee table book.

[01:15:39] Oh boy I'm hitting a wall.

[01:15:42] Yeah actually we have our other record.

[01:15:45] Oh yeah okay so we're near the end of the movie.

[01:15:47] Let's just power through.

[01:15:49] Oh yeah oh sorry.

[01:15:51] They talked to the baby.

[01:15:52] They talked to the baby and he says to the baby like

[01:15:54] you've got a problem on your hands such as Agent Smith

[01:15:56] he's basically ruined the matrix.

[01:15:58] I mean one assumes that's not good for the humans you know

[01:16:01] that he's overwriting.

[01:16:02] We have a common enemy the enemy in my enemies my friend

[01:16:04] let's team up.

[01:16:05] And they're like well what do you want and he says you know

[01:16:07] peace I want peace between humans and machines.

[01:16:10] Yeah.

[01:16:11] And so they plug him into the matrix in quite a scene.

[01:16:13] That's cool.

[01:16:14] Yeah all these tendrils kind of hook up to him

[01:16:16] and then there's this final tendril that like snakes up

[01:16:19] like to go into his back of his neck.

[01:16:21] Yeah.

[01:16:22] And when this happened my friend Michael Cross leaned over

[01:16:24] to me and he said major anal play.

[01:16:26] Because this looks like it's going to go into his body like

[01:16:29] like like flurrily like teases up his body.

[01:16:33] Yeah.

[01:16:34] And he was like pretty convinced this was just going to

[01:16:36] jack into his ass.

[01:16:37] Yeah that would have been cool.

[01:16:38] So then Smith, Neo goes into the matrix.

[01:16:41] Yeah.

[01:16:42] To fight Agent Smith who is now every person.

[01:16:45] Yeah.

[01:16:46] In the matrix.

[01:16:47] But most of them don't want to fight most of them

[01:16:48] just want to watch.

[01:16:49] 99.9% of them one could say.

[01:16:51] It's like if Evander Hallifield was made up entirely

[01:16:54] of Hallifields in the audience.

[01:16:56] It was not a toy of him of Hallifields watching one

[01:16:58] Hallifield.

[01:16:59] Yeah.

[01:17:00] Evander Hallifield fighting.

[01:17:01] I want Hallifield Tyson was what I meant to say.

[01:17:03] I get it.

[01:17:04] How do you feel about the look of this scene?

[01:17:06] You know it's like you know how it rained all the

[01:17:09] time more rain.

[01:17:10] You know how it was really green greener.

[01:17:12] Like you know how it was like you know so

[01:17:14] what do you like about this movie?

[01:17:16] I'm genuinely interested.

[01:17:17] Weird maybe it was just my expectations were so low

[01:17:19] but I'm sure I found this one easier to watch

[01:17:21] and I found it more emotionally fulfilling I guess.

[01:17:24] The Neo-Ark is good.

[01:17:26] I mean I think this fight's okay.

[01:17:28] I like that it's not him fighting all of them.

[01:17:30] I do like that it's one on one.

[01:17:31] Yeah I mean the fight like everything in this

[01:17:33] movie maybe lasts a couple minutes too long.

[01:17:35] It's basically just them punching each other

[01:17:37] and like they're equally strong.

[01:17:39] Pretty flubbery too.

[01:17:41] Yeah.

[01:17:42] I think it mostly avoids the flubbery until

[01:17:44] a final moment where Nio's like fist like in

[01:17:48] like slow-mo punches him in the jaw and

[01:17:51] they just turn into cartoons when that happens.

[01:17:54] And it feels like they did that just to be like

[01:17:56] let's see if we can do this.

[01:17:57] Like technologically if we can pull it off.

[01:17:59] They were you know they were 70% there

[01:18:01] but they couldn't do it.

[01:18:02] Closer than anyone had gotten yet but it

[01:18:03] feels like they did that just to break

[01:18:05] the barrier you know.

[01:18:06] I know and it's also like after five

[01:18:08] minutes of fighting so you're like this

[01:18:10] I think there's also this idea because

[01:18:12] Smith says to Nio like why do you keep

[01:18:14] fighting me?

[01:18:15] Like why are you doing this?

[01:18:17] So you need I guess a little bit of a drag out.

[01:18:19] Nio keeps standing back up.

[01:18:21] He's like a standing man from a

[01:18:23] a British Spanish.

[01:18:25] Yeah.

[01:18:26] Vulture, Miojak or whatever.

[01:18:31] So Nio's been going.

[01:18:33] Great move.

[01:18:34] 20-50.

[01:18:38] Well I mean 26 and Academy Award.

[01:18:41] So Nio.

[01:18:42] He stands back up.

[01:18:43] Yeah.

[01:18:44] Smith.

[01:18:45] No.

[01:18:46] Smith defeats Nio.

[01:18:48] Technically.

[01:18:49] Smith turns Nio into a Smith and then

[01:18:52] Nio is like nope and then blows everyone.

[01:18:54] There's this line where Nio says because

[01:18:56] I choose to and I think the implication

[01:18:59] here is that Nio is letting, he chooses

[01:19:02] to let Smith take him over rather than

[01:19:04] resisting him and that's what you know

[01:19:07] you know fuck Smith over.

[01:19:09] I do like Hugo Weaving's line where he's like

[01:19:11] finally I did it.

[01:19:12] Is it over?

[01:19:13] Yeah.

[01:19:14] And then they all start to blow up and

[01:19:15] he's like it's not fair.

[01:19:16] Yeah.

[01:19:17] I like it.

[01:19:18] I think he's good.

[01:19:19] I like Hugo Weaving.

[01:19:20] He's been so sidelined for a lot of this movie.

[01:19:22] Yeah.

[01:19:23] He's not in it at all.

[01:19:25] To build up to this final battle of like

[01:19:27] this is Luke versus Darth you know and it's like.

[01:19:30] You know as they did and reloaded

[01:19:32] the Wachowsky subvert a lot and sometimes

[01:19:35] it works better than it doesn't and

[01:19:37] sometimes it doesn't work very well.

[01:19:39] I think both these movies have like a little

[01:19:41] bit of a like a robbing Peter to pay

[01:19:44] Paul thing you know.

[01:19:45] There were so many things they wanted to

[01:19:47] pull off that they had to take away

[01:19:48] from other things.

[01:19:49] God here's a thing I do like about this movie.

[01:19:51] I actually think this film flows better

[01:19:54] like cinematic.

[01:19:55] Yeah.

[01:19:56] I get you.

[01:19:57] I think reloaded is so overstuffed

[01:20:00] that it feels like a little coverage to me.

[01:20:02] It feels a little less precise.

[01:20:04] You know we like talk a lot about like the

[01:20:06] language of cinema.

[01:20:07] Yeah.

[01:20:08] But I do think there's this sort of like

[01:20:09] music to movies because movies are like

[01:20:11] you know I think we both agree are

[01:20:13] the best art form because it combines

[01:20:14] everything right.

[01:20:15] Absolutely music visuals performance

[01:20:18] right you know movement.

[01:20:19] Right and I will refer to like the music

[01:20:21] of movies in the way that it's sort of

[01:20:23] like if you're listening to a song

[01:20:25] you don't really try to pick out

[01:20:28] those separate instruments.

[01:20:30] You know it just feels like one thing

[01:20:32] it feels that sound is what should have

[01:20:34] existed.

[01:20:35] Yeah.

[01:20:36] And reloaded feels a little clunky to

[01:20:38] me like I'm like that's an oboe.

[01:20:39] That's a violin even if I like some

[01:20:41] of the things that are being played

[01:20:43] I'm recognizing the separate pieces

[01:20:45] in the orchestra and this one has a

[01:20:47] sort of fluidity to it a nice sort of

[01:20:49] rhythm to it.

[01:20:50] I think the

[01:20:52] it's a lot cleaner visually.

[01:20:54] It's a lot more practical there's a lot

[01:20:56] less CGI in this movie until we get to

[01:20:58] the end.

[01:20:59] Yeah.

[01:21:00] There's a lot of practical sets

[01:21:01] because they're in Zion of like them

[01:21:02] being in the inside of ships.

[01:21:03] There's a lot of CGI in this movie

[01:21:05] though because all the machine

[01:21:06] stuff is CGI.

[01:21:07] Too felt like it had more it also

[01:21:08] had more CGI bodies and stuff.

[01:21:10] You think yeah I mean you're

[01:21:11] thinking of where it eats more

[01:21:12] the seams show.

[01:21:13] Yes.

[01:21:14] Yeah and there's more sort of like

[01:21:15] dialogue character moment scenes in

[01:21:17] this because a lot of reloaded are

[01:21:19] sort of these like you know these

[01:21:21] intellectual debates and when you

[01:21:23] have characters you know having

[01:21:25] emotional exchanges and actors are

[01:21:27] able to play off each other in that

[01:21:29] sort of way it leads to that sort

[01:21:31] of music of it.

[01:21:32] I don't know if I can really

[01:21:33] rationalize why I like this one

[01:21:34] more or less they're honestly pretty

[01:21:35] close for me right now.

[01:21:37] I've heard there are a lot of people

[01:21:38] who think one in the other it's

[01:21:39] not I don't think it's a settled

[01:21:40] debate but I just think I like the

[01:21:42] other one because it's less it's

[01:21:43] more illogical and more machine

[01:21:45] like and that's what I like about

[01:21:46] these movies.

[01:21:47] Yeah I think it's a little more

[01:21:48] cohesive as a film but I almost

[01:21:49] look at the two now is like

[01:21:50] alternate reality version because

[01:21:52] they each sort of have their

[01:21:53] ending I mean if you imagine that

[01:21:54] reloaded ends after the

[01:21:56] architect scene right?

[01:21:58] It's like that's that could be

[01:21:59] the end of the Matrix saga it's

[01:22:00] just him realizing this is going

[01:22:01] to happen over and over again he

[01:22:03] saves Trinity and that's you know

[01:22:05] it's it's sort of a bleak

[01:22:06] ending of like well now this

[01:22:07] matters or it can be the film

[01:22:09] where it's all about him fighting

[01:22:11] Mr. Smith, Agent Smith and it's

[01:22:14] like a shadow thing and that's

[01:22:16] what it's about.

[01:22:17] It just feels like these are

[01:22:18] alternate tracks I don't know.

[01:22:20] Yeah.

[01:22:21] It's an interesting franchise.

[01:22:22] It is.

[01:22:23] Now I have a question for you.

[01:22:24] Yeah.

[01:22:25] What happens at the end of this

[01:22:26] movie?

[01:22:27] Because I feel like most people

[01:22:28] couldn't answer that question

[01:22:29] like what is it Neo's

[01:22:30] achievement?

[01:22:31] Neo explodes everything and then

[01:22:34] he's dead and then the

[01:22:38] the Oracle and the little girl

[01:22:40] Sati, yeah.

[01:22:41] Sit on a bench.

[01:22:42] The Matrix reboots.

[01:22:43] Yeah.

[01:22:44] You see the cat from the first

[01:22:45] movie right you know and that

[01:22:48] suggests like the Matrix is

[01:22:49] and you see literally the code

[01:22:50] like rewrite itself to the empty

[01:22:52] city.

[01:22:53] Oh and like Sadi's lying on the

[01:22:54] sidewalk like she's dead and

[01:22:55] then the cat glitches and she

[01:22:56] comes back to life and she goes

[01:22:57] and sits on a bench and there's

[01:22:59] a sunrise.

[01:23:00] You also see the Oracle's body

[01:23:01] in the crater where Smith

[01:23:02] was so like.

[01:23:03] Right right because that was

[01:23:04] the Oracle that's the Smith

[01:23:06] that Neo fights is the Oracle

[01:23:07] Smith.

[01:23:08] The Oracle Smith right and then

[01:23:09] he has all these lines about

[01:23:10] like I've seen it.

[01:23:11] I'm going to beat you.

[01:23:12] Yeah and then they sit on a

[01:23:14] bench and they look at a

[01:23:15] sunrise and she goes what do

[01:23:17] you think of it?

[01:23:18] And the Oracle is like it's

[01:23:19] very pretty implying that

[01:23:21] what's her name Sadi?

[01:23:22] Sati.

[01:23:23] Sati made the sunrise

[01:23:25] even though she previously

[01:23:27] had no purpose and then

[01:23:28] she says I made it for Neo

[01:23:30] do you think he's going to

[01:23:31] come back and so you're

[01:23:32] forgetting something?

[01:23:33] She says I think he will.

[01:23:34] Yeah she says he might.

[01:23:35] Who else is in this final

[01:23:37] scene?

[01:23:38] Sarah?

[01:23:39] No well yeah he's there.

[01:23:40] Oracle, Sarah, Sati.

[01:23:42] Who?

[01:23:43] The architect.

[01:23:44] Oh right yeah.

[01:23:46] He shows up.

[01:23:47] Yeah and he's like.

[01:23:48] And he says to the Oracle

[01:23:49] you've played a dangerous game

[01:23:50] which is sort of implying

[01:23:52] the dangerous game being

[01:23:53] what she did with the one

[01:23:54] pushing him towards making

[01:23:56] the other choice.

[01:23:57] Yeah.

[01:23:58] And also I think letting

[01:23:59] Smith absorb her.

[01:24:00] Yeah.

[01:24:01] Which was like obviously

[01:24:02] was letting giving him the

[01:24:03] keys to the castle.

[01:24:04] Yeah.

[01:24:05] And she's like you know

[01:24:06] whatever change is always

[01:24:07] dangerous whatever.

[01:24:08] And then you know what the

[01:24:09] conversation they have is

[01:24:10] like the new world of the

[01:24:11] matrix is if you don't want

[01:24:12] to be in the matrix

[01:24:13] you're not in the matrix.

[01:24:15] That's the piece that's

[01:24:16] been struck.

[01:24:17] Right.

[01:24:18] Everything's about choice.

[01:24:19] Rather than having to rescue

[01:24:20] people in this sort of eternal

[01:24:21] conflict it's going to be

[01:24:22] like if you want to be in

[01:24:23] the matrix you can be in

[01:24:24] the matrix because these

[01:24:25] movies are always kind of

[01:24:26] saying like they get that

[01:24:27] like maybe you want to

[01:24:28] be in the matrix.

[01:24:29] Matrix is much easier.

[01:24:30] Yeah Cypher is not like

[01:24:31] a classic villain because

[01:24:33] he won't like in the

[01:24:34] first movie because just

[01:24:35] his idea that maybe he

[01:24:36] just doesn't want to like

[01:24:37] drink piss water and like

[01:24:38] wear dirty sweater is like

[01:24:40] he's like yeah maybe he

[01:24:42] doesn't want to do that.

[01:24:43] Yeah.

[01:24:44] So it's like instead of this

[01:24:45] eternal struggle like why

[01:24:47] don't we just have it both

[01:24:48] ways.

[01:24:49] Right.

[01:24:50] You get your power they

[01:24:51] get their life.

[01:24:52] Yeah.

[01:24:53] And people who aren't

[01:24:54] dissatisfied with that can

[01:24:55] maybe not do it.

[01:24:56] Yeah.

[01:24:57] So that's the movie I got

[01:24:58] to explain it then you

[01:24:59] can take a film that way

[01:25:00] you will.

[01:25:01] Look I'm going to there's

[01:25:02] a real arc.

[01:25:03] I think I'm going to keep

[01:25:04] chewing on it over the

[01:25:05] rest of the series.

[01:25:06] I bought the blu-ray box set

[01:25:07] that has all these discs

[01:25:08] we'll talk about that stuff.

[01:25:09] So we'll get back around to

[01:25:10] that and the bonuses next

[01:25:11] week we'll be back with

[01:25:12] Speed Racer.

[01:25:13] Mm hmm.

[01:25:14] A guest to be determined

[01:25:15] but it might be plural

[01:25:16] guests might be might not

[01:25:17] be might be no one.

[01:25:18] There might be nobody

[01:25:19] probably have a guest

[01:25:20] might be nobody.

[01:25:21] We've had a lot of people

[01:25:22] want to talk about this

[01:25:23] film because it's a film

[01:25:24] that draws strong

[01:25:25] emotions but as always

[01:25:27] thank you for listening.

[01:25:29] Please rate review and

[01:25:30] subscribe.

[01:25:32] No time for burger

[01:25:33] report today.

[01:25:34] No time.

[01:25:35] Damn it.

[01:25:36] For reading reviews

[01:25:37] the studio's double booked

[01:25:38] so we have to get out of here

[01:25:39] right now.

[01:25:40] And as always just

[01:25:41] keep on making those

[01:25:42] sunrises.

[01:25:44] Don't do another thing

[01:25:48] like you did last time.

[01:25:49] Let's start the episode.

[01:25:50] I'm worried about that.

[01:25:51] Let's start the episode.