[00:00:01] Blank Check with Griffin and David, Blank Check with Griffin and David Don't know what to say or to expect All you need to know is that the name of the show is Blank Check Well? Ya comin'? Where? Why? To the Zoom call, of course!
[00:00:29] This is the Podlar X-Cast! Ben clearing his throat, which I assume he will cut out in the middle of that, really drove it home. That was really good. The Podlar X-Cast!
[00:00:47] It'd be great. Ben clearing his throat was like the dad, you know, who brought his kid to see this movie. Just completely bored by this movie, in the middle of the multipods.
[00:01:03] This is one of those movies where I would pay anything to see a dad at a bar trying to explain it to the other barflies the evening after he brought his kids to see a matinee.
[00:01:17] Like the person you're describing, David, I want to see that guy complaining to the bartender about this fucking movie. He's like complaining, but he's also saying the whole plot as he complains. And then there's this hobo! I guess he's on the roof? I don't really get it.
[00:01:36] I don't want to see that guy making jokes about it. I want to see that guy actually angry, complaining to a bartender who feigns interest. Hello everybody, do you hear that? We need a little dinging sound, right? A little jingle jangle.
[00:01:55] What do you mean, David? I just did the jingle. You couldn't hear it? Now I can hear it. See, you weren't believing earlier, but the jingle jangle was there the entire time. Of course, right. That's what it was.
[00:02:08] This of course is Blank Shack with Griffin and David. My name is Griffin. And I'm David. I'm David! This is a podcast about filmographies, directors with massive success early on in their career. I've given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion products they want.
[00:02:28] And sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce, baby. And I want to just make something incredibly, incredibly clear from the beginning of this episode. On this podcast there is just one rule. Never ever let it cool. I can't believe you'd never seen this movie, Griffin.
[00:02:53] That's the only rule. Only rule. Genocide allowed on the train. Encouraged. Absolutely. The strongest survive. Yeah. Look, look, if kids aren't strong enough to stay alive, that's on them. But hot chocolate, that's on you. Never ever let it cool.
[00:03:18] Children lose their ticket, the ticket which only sort of exists in a, you know, in the physical world. If they lose it, then they're out of luck. Joey, I love, I love the 20 minutes of this movie that are about a stern,
[00:03:33] a mostly shut off white man, hastily escorting a young black girl off a train in 1955. You don't know that it's 1955. It's just a generally sort of, you know, leave it to bevertime in America. David, I looked it up and Zemeckis said it was explicitly 1955.
[00:03:51] That was his intention, even though it's not stated. He's like right, like the Eisenhower Stevenson election is sort of building steam. Like that's where he wants you to think. You're, you know, he wants you in that mindset.
[00:04:03] Well, there are all those scenes where you see news footage of the conductor shaking hands with whoever the president is. Right, of course. Oh boy, what a, there's so much to dig into here. Wait, so David, did you seen it?
[00:04:18] Yeah, but like on TV, I certainly didn't see it in theaters. I remember watching, I would say probably 80% of it on TV, like just out of like, okay, I guess I'll officially hate this. And that's it. I've never seen it again.
[00:04:37] When you, I mean we're going to get into, we'll introduce you and we're going to get into this, but when you said like, you know, polar express, I've never been more flabbergasted. I had no idea. It's like some dark secret you've been keeping.
[00:04:51] Like I just did not know that was an interest of yours. Let's also say like five years earlier, the two of you probably would have seen this movie together. Sure, right.
[00:05:01] I mean, because no, but yeah, by the time it came out, I was in college out of completism, if nothing else, but yes. Sure, but I just think it's interesting because not introducing the guest yet, not introducing the guest, but the two of your brothers. Yes, good point.
[00:05:23] And you were both adolescents when this film came out, even if you were not children, you know, but you were young adults.
[00:05:32] And we also just, we would as the guest said, you know, we would see the big movies, especially if you know, a potential awards movie maybe or something like that, you know.
[00:05:44] It is just kind of funny for this movie in 2005 that Joey, you have strong opinions on it and David, hey, you watched it on TV casually 10 years later. Exactly. That's exactly that is correct. You nailed it. Right, right. Yeah, yeah. And it is sure. Go on, go on.
[00:06:01] No, just to say, especially that flip of it, I know you're a big film fan as well, but David is the one who watches stuff obsessively. It is odd that you're the one who like saw it and imprinted on it in any sort of way.
[00:06:15] Yeah, especially since I would have thought that David might have an opinion because it is a significant movie not in its use of technology and in being the griffin shaking his head at that. Agreed, agreed, agreed. I thought you were going to throw out a hot take.
[00:06:30] No, it's like David keeps on throwing out his hot take that like Tron Legacy is the most important film the last 20 years.
[00:06:36] And it's very similar to build. It's very easy to build a similar take around this movie, which is why it perplexes me that David isn't more obsessed with this movie.
[00:06:44] Right, because whether you believe it is a, you know, a wonderful piece of cinema or not, no one I think would question that. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. What? This is a pile of steaming shit. We'll get to that.
[00:06:58] Ben, this is on you. You don't believe hard enough. You didn't learn the lesson of the movie. Your ticket does not say learned. It does not say believe. Your ticket says Scrooge. No, it says like a ditch. Yeah, it says ditch.
[00:07:15] I'd rather spend the whole movie with those fucking toys than watch any other part of this movie. Ben, our finest film critic texted the two of us at, I believe, 1.15 a.m., just in the words, Yeah, somewhere around there. Ba humbug.
[00:07:31] And that's his full review. He didn't say I'm watching it tonight. He didn't say had just watched the Polar Express. He just texted Ba humbug and both of us knew exactly what had happened. Even though he doesn't even know that there's a Christmas Carol episode coming up.
[00:07:47] And by the way, Ben, I would have really, I would have guessed that this would have been one of the movies that you were like, I didn't actually watch this one guy. Right. Right. That it is not.
[00:07:58] Well, I love the book, so I gave it a shot and man, man, oh man was I disappointed. Joey, what were you going to say five tangents ago? Our guest today, a longtime brother of David Sims, Joey C. Sims.
[00:08:11] I was going to say that I thought that David might have seen it for the first time last time because he posted a very brief review on his, on his letterbox. Although I know that your letterbox sting me.
[00:08:24] No, no, no. But the only reason I do not use the box, but the only reason I'm aware of this is that I watched the movie with my roommate who asked me to name check him. So I'm making sure to do it right away.
[00:08:37] My roommate Lane Montgomery who just heard about it. Did the theme song for a little podcast. This is the first time this has ever been confirmed as blank check cannon, but you did not know Lane Montgomery and now through a series of circumstances,
[00:08:54] the two of you live together and have been quarantining together. The magic of blank check. He reached out to, he just saw the listing on, he saw it on Facebook and he was like, this looks like this looks great for me.
[00:09:09] And also by the way, as an aside, like I think I did the theme music for your brother's podcast. Fuck yeah. And then moved in on March 1st and then some other things happened. Perfect timing. Perfect timing.
[00:09:23] He was texting me that two of you play in Star Wars Monopoly together. I just keep on thinking of the two of you living together and it seems like a really nice low conflict sitcom in my mind. It's a sitcom with very little stakes. Yeah, he watched it.
[00:09:38] Watched Paul Erick's Barrest The Mean last night, which he loved. He got a boy. He boarded the train. He was thrilled by the whole thing and then posted something about it on some form of social media. I don't know what and then a friend of his texted him,
[00:09:53] a friend who also follows David on the letter box and texted him. It just texted him like, did you and David Sims both watch the movie The Polar Express? Yeah. Very understandably confused why two people would be watching it for two different reasons,
[00:10:12] but of course it's all connected. I'm going to clarify this for the fans and for everyone who cares. Well then let me also clarify for our listeners the reason why Brandon People would be watching Polar Express is this is a mini series on the films of Robert Simekus.
[00:10:28] It's called podcast away and today we're talking about the Polar Express. One of his biggest hits, right? One of his biggest fucking hits. Maybe his third movie ever. No, because those back to the future is definitely messing. Yeah, maybe four, maybe four.
[00:10:44] Castaway made a lot of money too though. He's got a lot of hits, but one of his biggest hits. I don't. I'm quite personicity about my letter box like, you know, logging and all that stuff.
[00:10:58] Persnickity about a site that allows you to catalog film opinions and watching habits. Right? Yes. But I am not always totally on top of logging things as like a rewatch if you know because like letter box will automatically do that if you've logged in on letter box before.
[00:11:18] But I like, so I'm not going to like whatever. Like you know, I think it probably logged in as a first viewing for me. Well, it's a first viewing in my letter box life. Okay? So now it's been clarified for everybody. Wow.
[00:11:33] I had obviously never logged in before. My review was that was some weird shit and you know what, stand by it. I just looked up the letter box page and the top review I saw was our friend of the show, past and future guest Patrick Willems.
[00:11:48] Stop the polar express. I want to get off pretty good. Pretty perfect. Yeah. Yes. I mean, what can you say anyway? But okay. So with all the all the introducing done and all that. Yeah. There's just also yeah, it's worth noting that Joey's on this episode.
[00:12:10] You know, your sister was on. Okay. Your sister was on Julie and Julia makes sense. I'm on Julie and Julia. She loves to cook like that makes sense. Joey, you were on our Lost in Space episode. Obviously that was a sibling choice. You were on Ratatouille.
[00:12:26] But but this was the first time in a while you were like well just just FYI. I heard you're doing Zemeckis. I might be interested in talking about the polar express. So let's delve into this Joey. I don't understand it. Yeah. Why did this happen? Yes. How? Why?
[00:12:44] When? I was thinking about this beforehand knowing I was going to be asked this, but unfortunately as David can attest to from knowing me so well, I have a really bad memory. You do. Terrible memory.
[00:13:00] And I do not remember when I first saw this movie or when or what specifically first began a weird interest in it. I remember that it was not in theaters because I did not see this movie in theaters.
[00:13:11] That would help to explain it if I could come on and say like look guys, I saw this thing when it came out in like IMAX in 3D. Blue, red, red. Because that is the right way because that is the form in which even certain critics
[00:13:25] from what I remember when it came out who saw it in that form were like listen this movie's weird but you got to see with what this shit looks like in like 3D. IMAX looks crazy.
[00:13:34] Also if you saw it in the fucking holiday season and walking in and out of the theater you were greeted by fucking lights and carolers and a cup of nog or whatever. I could see you just being like I don't know fucking Christmas shit it gets to me.
[00:13:47] Right, no I don't have anything like that for you. I probably, I don't know just watch it on probably TV was the first time and I don't know it was just taken in by it.
[00:14:01] I think one thing I would say is that the tripping up point for a lot of people in this movie and the thing that they just can't get past is that, and we're going to talk about this some more, is that the characters look creepy as hell.
[00:14:17] Which characters? Wait a second, wait, which characters look creepy? There's a lot of weird interesting stuff happening in this movie in terms of how bizarrely the screenplay is constructed or not really structured.
[00:14:33] In terms of how creepy it is, not in their faces but in the way that the characters behave, especially all of the adult characters. In the tonal mess of it, the fact that it just turns into a different movie like every scene.
[00:14:52] And I don't know other than that, I don't know, there's just something about it. It is a fascinating object. It is something, I could see myself getting dangerously attached to trying to make sense of it, watching it too many times trying to,
[00:15:07] like it could become an old dog type fixation for me and I'm putting real bumpers on myself from going down the rabbit hole on this one. Because it's not a movie, I think what I expect or whatever, I know the movie's weird so that's not true.
[00:15:23] It's not just a sappy bad movie. That would almost be easier to deal with, right? If it's just like a movie where it's like, oh you know, Christmas, we just got to be there for each other and that's what Christmas is all about. That I could handle.
[00:15:44] I literally was saying, I was talking to Emma last night because I was like, what is this movie about? I don't really know what the message is supposed to be about it apart from believing
[00:15:56] which we're going to get into and she was like, I know my dad loves that movie. And so it's like, it's to me, it's so weird. It's Stefanski's dad? Yes, Stefanski and like and yet and she is not like,
[00:16:08] I think she is representative of so many people where like it's just like they're like Polar Express family classic. The dream comes, great movie, goes to Santa. What are you talking about? Like nothing weird about it.
[00:16:19] It is weird that it does feel like it's sort of got grandfathered into being a holiday classic on a technicality in certain ways. But I even think that like the year before this is Elf and perhaps I'm somewhat biased because
[00:16:34] I think Elf is the best Christmas movie the last 20 years and is the one that my family tends to watch together. A good movie. Joey and I saw that movie in theaters.
[00:16:45] That's a movie for me that really grows that I think is great and that like in the way David we talked about a recent episode movies that like gain a star on Netflix. Elf is like a gain, a star from repeated viewing around the holiday season movie.
[00:17:00] It just fucking plays. Right gains a star on December or whatever. Right, but I sense like a real people are passionate about that movie and there's like an adaptability of it of like they did a Broadway musical,
[00:17:13] they did a fucking stop motion special, they've done children's books of it. Like it feels like there's some potency to the story that works across different interpretations
[00:17:21] and this just weirdly the most I ever hear people say is just that boilerplate like oh yeah my dad loves that movie or like I loved that movie when I was a kid but no one can unpack why this movie has any emotional impact on them.
[00:17:35] Like I totally understand you Joey being like we have to look into this thing but I don't understand people just being like yeah I don't know it makes me feel good. Any family views this is like the movie you just sort of put on in the holiday times
[00:17:46] then they must not be paying any attention to it. It must just sort of be on in the background because that's a wild thing to say. All caps must be investigated. You know, no, but I think that's what Joey's saying is right.
[00:17:57] I think it's a movie you put on the first half hour you're into it. You're like watching it with the family, you know and that's the part which like okay
[00:18:05] I'm going to hang on the train going to see Santa and then people get up and they start getting dinner ready or like doing you know like and then people are in and out because like the last half of this movie if you sit down and watch it.
[00:18:16] Oh yeah I mean what's wrong with you like go on not only is it bizarre it's bad like so like I think it's just that. Yes, the score feels like such a musical encapsulation of the commercial spirit of Christmas. Right.
[00:18:29] Of this sort of like marketing department like sentiment of Christmas. What's this movie's about? It's about believing that you're going to get presents. Yes. Like Elf is about like you say like that's a movie about a nice person who's nice. Yes.
[00:18:44] And he comes to New York and New York is a tougher town than he's used to but like you know the spirit of Christmas is embodied in him. He makes everyone better. One harder.
[00:18:52] It's a Paddington story and even though it comes into like belief of Christmas and Santa Claus ostensibly it's about him selling the idea of like brotherhood and caring and compassion during the holiday season. Like it has some other shit it's tapping into. This is just like completely self-reflexive.
[00:19:11] This movie's like what's it about? Believing. Believing in what? Belief. But what am I supposed to be believing in? The Polar Express. But where does the Polar Express take me? To Christmas.
[00:19:24] This movie is and I think there's nothing wrong with this but it is inarguable is for people who their God is Santa. Yes. Like this movie is religious but about Santa the like Coca-Cola guy you know like Santa the 20th century God like you believe in Santa.
[00:19:47] What does Santa do? Gets you presents. What else lives at the North Pole? Is there any like sort of Christmas Christian feeling here? None at all. That's not what this is about baby. I'm sorry I have to pull the emergency brakes for a second. Okay.
[00:20:03] Because we're going straight into the deep end but I think there's a big question we all got to answer before we dig into this episode deeper. I think we all need to talk about our relationships to Christmas. Okay go ahead. No because I do think...
[00:20:17] Yes no I mean that's fine. I am a Jewish person right? We're all Jews here. We're all Jews here. I mean not Ben. Yeah not Ben. I was a kid who loved Christmas.
[00:20:28] We had a sort of very agnostic celebration of Easter and Christmas in particular in my household. I think because I was just a kid who loved ceremony and toys and candy and shit.
[00:20:45] And there was always this thing of like I definitely despite being a Jew in the private school system in New York City perhaps the most welcoming place to be a Jew where you feel like you have the most cultural currency.
[00:21:02] I still felt left out of the fact that I wasn't Christian and I couldn't partake in the holidays that seemed fun, you know? Like I knew that we didn't have any spiritual connection to it. I get you.
[00:21:14] So we very much celebrated Christmas in a very polar express way where it was like belief in Santa and Rudolph and Green and Red and this music and presents and no deeper mealing and any of this.
[00:21:27] And I love Christmas and it makes me fucking sentimental and I'm a sap for like when the fucking commercials come on. I built a little more cynicism to it but it's still very easy to break me with Christmas-y shit. Wait so you believed in Santa though? Absolutely. Absolutely.
[00:21:41] You did the whole ritual of Santa and that was... Absolutely, all of it. All of it. It was just the performative rituals of the holiday in a very hollow way like this. Well Joey's birthday is on Christmas Eve which I don't know if you would remember that but...
[00:21:57] Wow. I'm sorry Joey that stinks. Yeah. Everyone always says that but it's really fine. You don't get as many presents as somebody who's like a June birthday. I have six months between Christmas and my birthday to clear the slate so that the presents just stack up baby.
[00:22:17] Clear this. You have a present table and by Christmas it's ready again. Yeah. Around May Ben just starts tapping on the table. Right. Giving the side eye to his parents looking a little bare folks huh? So I would say and I don't know if you agree with this.
[00:22:36] I mean Christmas was really more of just kind of like this afterthought to Joey's birthday because Joey's birthday was kind of the present event and because we were Jews we kind of like did Hanukkah whenever we did Hanukkah. Yeah. Like so that moved around.
[00:22:54] So if Hanukkah and my birthday had both passed in our family it would sort of feel like we were done with the whole present giving season and all that. Interesting. It was over and then Christmas was an afterthought and there was a handful of presents. No Santa.
[00:23:09] No tree. The thing is because we have British relatives and then later lived in Britain let's just get this out of the fucking way. I hate this new fucking. You just like Mitch McConnell style try to ram it through the system to block the bit from happening.
[00:23:26] Boy oh boy. Well because we have British relatives and we moved to Britain in 1995. He's a shit. You hate joy. I'm pausing. Okay. There's no way. Come on. All right. Fine. Fine. Fine.
[00:23:44] So we have a lot of presents from some of the Brits because Christmas in Britain that's the main event. So it would be kind of this vestigial. It would be like sort of the end of the present season. Like we said. Sure. No Santa never believed in Santa.
[00:23:59] Wow. Did your parents tell you that Santa wasn't real or did you just never buy into it? I think it really came up. Yeah. There was just no effort to introduce him into the you know what I mean?
[00:24:09] Like I feel like you do have to like be like you know Santa came right. You have to do a little theatrics right? I mean it was my dad's big, big showcase as an actor every year. Right.
[00:24:22] It was the Santa shit overreacting to anything Santa did or didn't do and tip in the hand of like do you think he's going to eat the cook? I think he might not eat the cookies this year.
[00:24:32] He would just he was not subtle with any of that shit. It seems fun like and it's so funny because your dad is Jewish like to think about him being like you know what fuck it. Let's just go for it.
[00:24:43] But my mom was half and half and my grandmother very much tried to pretend she wasn't Jewish for most of her life and my dad's parents I think were the same where it was like we're Jews, we're not super religious but we do Christmas out of ceremony.
[00:24:57] We do the Santa shit and whatever. But here's the thing and Joey you should this is my thing. I don't know if you agree with this, but like so my experience of Christmas like my experience of much of life is through movies like that's you know
[00:25:10] the Christmas I understand the most the Hollywood Christmas like would you agree Joey? I mean I think this movie is an example of that part kind of not registering with me as much because they don't have the like childhood attachment or whatever sort of
[00:25:24] like the things that are interesting to this to me about this movie obviously have nothing to do with Santa other than his other than his terrifying face. But yes generally more generally speaking yeah culture would have
[00:25:39] been the only place movies would have been the only place where this idea would have been introduced to us but that did not seep into us to the extent of us being like is Santa coming to parents who had never introduced this concept it
[00:25:52] did not have that level of power which you'd think it might but it didn't. Well I will say this that my family staunch atheists. Sure. Tracks. Your dad's a man of science. Your dad's a man of science. Yes. Yeah you're an only child. Correct.
[00:26:15] My dad was just like Jesus, Santa, Easter Bunny, not real and I was like so young and he just like just got it all out of the way. Let's get down to brass tacks. Yeah.
[00:26:32] I mean you also your parents were old first time parents it's fair to say right. Correct. So I think they also kind of like got to that point where they were just like sort of tired. Yeah.
[00:26:45] And they had moved on already so they were just like listen kid none of this is real all right yeah you're gonna get presents we'll have some family come by like that's just how it's going to be.
[00:26:56] That's I mean it's fascinating out of four of us that I'm the only one who grew up with Santa Claus. I just wanted to share though that I was the kid on the bus who tell everybody that Santa is a real and made kids cry first like
[00:27:10] that was the first one to make sure that I let everybody know. Yeah, you were one of those kids. You tried every year to break the story in the school newspaper but you couldn't verify it. Your dad wouldn't speak on record so you could never get confirmation.
[00:27:30] Who are your sources I can't tell you they're very high level. I remember my dad at one point like I because I was such a hyper obsessive kid grilling him on like the logic of Santa Claus. Not because I didn't believe I so I just wanted it.
[00:27:51] But I just wanted the answers I was just curious to get some sort of definition and I remember him just like pulling a lot of wild shit out of his ass but then saying like how do you know all this stuff and my dad telling me
[00:28:02] there's a book when you become a father that they give you that has like just a lot of this information in it. And as I can I see the book and he was like you can't see it unless you're a dad
[00:28:12] and I always I think about that all the time because it is fascinating that Santa Claus still exists as like a concept especially in the age of the Internet because it's just so easy to fact check this shit.
[00:28:29] Like all you have to do is like go to school and then go to one other kid and being like so what about your dad with that book and they could be like my dad doesn't have any fucking book that's not a thing.
[00:28:40] Like every parent is making up their own mythology to fill in the blanks. I remember going to a kid's house and looking at like a book they had and in the inscription on the inside it said like
[00:28:51] Dear Michael for being a good boy this year love Santa Claus. And I was like why does Santa Claus write you fucking notes and he doesn't write me fucking notes. Different approaches that that's destabilizing things. Doesn't track from family to family, you know.
[00:29:05] My parents would be like the presents that they got us would be wrapped and under the tree in the days leading up to Christmas and then the surprise presents that Santa showed up with were unwrapped
[00:29:18] and I think that was partially for the impact of like waking up seeing things that magically were there but also because they were just give us a fucking break we don't want to wrap all of these.
[00:29:27] But then you talk to any other families like no the Santa presents are the ones that are most wrapped. Right those are the fanciest. Yeah so what did your dad say about living in an apartment like how did Santa get there? Came through the windows.
[00:29:41] I had a fireplace in the house that grew up there. Absolutely absolutely we lived on the 11th floor he said that Santa came through the window despite the window obviously having bars on it. Magic is the answer right? Magic is always the answer.
[00:29:56] A wizard did it but there are a lot of holes. How old was I David when I saw the movie The Santa Claus and was totally distraught by it when did that come out? This is referenced very often on the podcast
[00:30:12] The impact that The Santa Claus had on you. I don't know about very often but I've definitely referenced it yes. That came out in 94 so you would have been Joey like four or five years old.
[00:30:21] Right so I was that young when I saw it and became so upset by the opening of the movie which is Santa Claus dying slash being murdered. Is he killing an accident or he just falls? He slips but it's because he's kind of he's scared. By Tim Allen.
[00:30:45] It's like manslaughter. Tim Allen goes grrrrr. Yeah he grunts too loudly and then... Yeah although actually I guess this anecdote actually proves the opposite point that I was trying to make because I was distraught by the idea of Santa Claus
[00:31:02] dying which suggests that I had an attachment to... You had some sort of investment in the idea at least as a fictional character. You felt some fondness. Apparently or maybe I just sort of felt general human empathy for the fallen but... Yeah.
[00:31:18] Hey gotta respect the fallen I mean... But anyway I yes I got so upset that I had to be taken out of the movie theater and she eventually took me to the hospital because she thought that something was wrong with me.
[00:31:29] She didn't take you to the hospital she took you to the doctor. The hospital would have been extreme. Right. But yes you basically just would not stop crying. I believe you because you were so upset just sort of eventually she was like does your ear hurt?
[00:31:45] You know and you were like yeah you know like I think you just kind of... She was like there's gotta be... It can't just be this dumb fucking movie you know like... You don't even believe in the guy it's an actor for crying out
[00:31:57] a stupid four year old. He never even see the guy's face he doesn't have any dialogue. You don't that's true you don't it's just just a crazy premise anyway but we're not talking about... It's a non-speaking part he probably got below sag minimum. Why are you crying Joey?
[00:32:14] But so when this movie comes out... Yeah. We're talking... October 04. Yeah, so I am in college right it's my first year in college I'm not gonna get the boys together you know should be like come on guys let's let's let's strap on our 3D glasses
[00:32:35] and go see fucking Santa Claus like so I guess that was my... Yeah, I just missed it and then it was this sort of mocked movie so I was like I didn't miss anything right. My main or only memory big memory from its cinematic release
[00:32:52] was that there was a teaser trailer that premiered like a full year before it was one of those movies that had like a promotional rollout that started like way ahead of time and I feel like this teaser
[00:33:04] was possibly attached to some big movie but I can't remember which because I feel like I saw it multiple times and the teaser is just the opening scene of just the polar not quite the opening of the train pulling up
[00:33:16] and then Tom Hanks being like this is the polar express and that's it and then I feel like there's one of... And that was just out there forever and it was one of those trailers that came out so early that you're just like after a while
[00:33:28] you're just like when are you gonna fucking release this thing? I remember seeing that trailer October 03 I want to bring this in to outline the difference between David and I David saying I would never gather the boys together
[00:33:45] to go see Polar Express October 03 a year before this movie comes out I gather friends to go see Looney Tunes back in action at midnight Sure And I remember seeing the teaser before this Me not seeing this movie was an active decision
[00:34:00] Like I was soft protesting this movie I was like it looks like dog shit I hate it This is fucking creepy There's no way to adapt that book Like all this seems dumb I think I was in the like is Zemeckis a fucking sap and a hack period
[00:34:16] as much as I love Back to the Future and even though his movie right before this was Castaway which I loved I think I was like fuck it's Zemeckis lost the plot I'm out of here Like I was like I don't want to see this fucking thing
[00:34:28] And I would like criticize Like I would like but why would you see that? It looks like fucking garbage Which I was still very much in a period of sort of A, you know animation completism
[00:34:40] B, I would rarely not see one of the top ten box office releases of the year If only for a sense of like cultural knowledge It's rare that I wouldn't see something that gross this much money If only to figure out why the fuck is this popular
[00:34:56] And C, Romali's nine years younger than me So I'm fifteen when this comes out But she's six And I would use having a six year old sister very often as an excuse To see children's movies that I wanted to see
[00:35:11] But didn't want to try to convince friends to go see On a fucking Friday night or whatever And I remember just being like mom that's on you You fucking take her to see the Polar Express I'm not boarding that shit
[00:35:23] And I like actively abstained, never had any interest in seeing it I feel like the only times I've ever considered it Were in the years following the release of this movie When it would still get re-released every holiday season in IMAX 3D
[00:35:37] Like four or five years out from the original release I remember considering like is it worth going to Lincoln Square To see this IMAX 3D just because I'm a fan of 3D But I never cared enough to do it
[00:35:49] And then when we agreed to accept the results of the March Madness election And Zemeckis was elected our fall miniseries subject without contention I tracked down the 3D Blu-ray I bought the 3D Blu-rays for this, for Christmas Carol and for The Walk
[00:36:13] The walk I saw in 3D in theaters Christmas Carol and this I never saw in theaters Bay Wolf I saw in theaters in 3D Weirdly has never been released in home video in 3D But I felt like because as you said Joey
[00:36:23] Like most of this film's reputation at least when it came out was just You gotta give them credit the 3D is oppressive Knowing it was never gonna look as good at home I still wanted to see this thing in 3D
[00:36:33] Because that seems to be one of the only elements that everyone agrees Is positive on this movie On that level it is impressive Especially if you view how early it was Like it's the first mainstream studio film to be released in IMAX 3D
[00:36:49] It's kind of the first major digital 3D movie Spike it's 3D is the year before this But that's like red and blue cardboard glasses that suck And that sort of spurs the 3D revival because that movie does so well
[00:37:03] And then after this the 3D train is rolling if you will This movie is both the first, it has two major firsts The other one is that it is I think believe the first all like digital capture Absolutely So it is like a pretty historic
[00:37:21] Huge milestone and I think that is now the bedrock of so many of the blockbusters Like everything Totally dominate the block market But like uncontested status is in the Guinness Book of World Records It's the first mocap movie I'll say this too Not to get into too deep
[00:37:41] Within the first hour of what I assume will be a 5 hour episode There was a rumor speculated We got to spend one whole hour on hot chocolate We have to, well that's what we're building up to That's act 2 of 5 Hot Hot Hot Hot Hot Sorry go ahead
[00:37:58] No all I want to say is just on this train there's just one rule Never ever let it cool There is a sort of There's always been a whisper I feel amongst the visual effects community that I saw people circulating on Twitter recently
[00:38:20] I forget who it was but I don't want to cite them either because they ended up deleting the tweet I know what you're talking about That Gollum really was a visual effects performance not a motion capture performance That by all accounts Right because 2001 is fellowship
[00:38:36] Gollum barely appears, they don't even pretend that was motion captured You just get the little shots in the shadow And what you see the model looks different It's mostly just a little bit of voice 02 Two years before this is Two Towers
[00:38:49] Which is the first real big mocap performance as presented to the public And people are like holy shit this is fucking incredible This is the beginning of everything Now this technology you could do anything And then two years later this movie comes out and looks like dog shit
[00:39:04] And not just like it looks bad Which you could attribute to Their faces don't move they have wax faces I was watching the 3D Blu-ray I bought is actually weirdly stacked with special features
[00:39:18] But one of the things is they have like ten minutes of scenes where it's side by side Seeing three angles of Hanks on the motion capture volume alongside the footage in the movie And Hanks' performance is good
[00:39:34] Like in just a sketch comedy way when you're watching the live action footage You're like Hanks is doing really kind of impressive subtle broad work differentiating these characters And when you see that side by side with what ends up on screen
[00:39:47] Like 5% of that is making it through the data The technology is clearly so rudimentary to a degree where you can't just chuck it up to Well it was hard to render that many surfaces or whatever
[00:39:58] It's clear that just like the intention of the performance is not being picked up The receptors weren't there And at the very least it is known that Gollum was massaged a lot
[00:40:09] But watching this movie it really feels like they thought that they could do it by capturing the data Then they looked at the data and there was barely anything to go off of there It was just sort of like a chalk outline of a dead body
[00:40:23] And then they sort of just animated based off the reference footage I think Gollum is anti-circuitism performance in the sense that it is people trying to reanimate what he did on the day But I think there were...
[00:40:38] There was a lot invested in the idea that they had pulled the technology off And so they attributed more of it to an automated system than perhaps was accurate Because watching this movie it's just impossible to believe that this big a step backwards happened two years after that
[00:40:54] It's impossible Is this ILM though? Is it a different company? I think so but even still, even still But you remember at the time the narrative was ILM they did like the mummy returns
[00:41:06] They suck, they're being left in the dust and wingnut the New Zealand guys have figured it out That would be the argument against this Now to move on though because there's something else I want to say The book Now Joey and I didn't read the book
[00:41:23] Right Joey? Book means nothing to you right? No, no, not at all Ben, sounds like you read the book Forky in my household, big fan of the book Griff did you like this book? Was this a book for you? It's from the writer of Jumanji, classic children's book
[00:41:39] Huge book for me, I just want to correct This was not ILM, I believe this was Sony Image Movers Okay, yeah sure Or Image Works or whatever It ends up becoming Sony Animation But this was a bad year for ILM They had Azkaban which has really dodgy CGI
[00:41:57] Riddick which does not hold up particularly well Anyway, yes the book was huge for me But I remember even like you know, unsurprisingly I was a kid where anytime I read any picture book I liked I would go oh they should make it into a movie
[00:42:11] And then in my head I would say the movie should star Blank And Blank would usually be Tom Hanks, Tim Allen or Robin Williams Like the three guys I liked in movies right? Those guys make me laugh, they're good in family films
[00:42:23] So I would read like Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs They'd be like they should make this into a movie with Robin Williams And I remember my dad just saying to me like it doesn't have characters It's Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs, come on, it's meatballs
[00:42:38] Well but yeah, and the Cloudy movies are great But they ended up wholesale creating a narrative Just off of it's a place where food comes out of the sky The book doesn't have characters It's just sort of almost like a travel log of this weird town
[00:42:51] Where the shit happens I feel like even as that kid who would want to see these movies I knew like you can't make a polar express movie Because the book is really just like from what I remember The opening narration that Tom Hanks does
[00:43:07] And then it's about him getting whisked away on this train And it's sort of like the middle section of where the wild things are Where it's just like images of rumpus happening You know and just saying like one or two sentences about what's happening on the train
[00:43:20] But there's no incident, there's no conflict He gets on the train, he goes to the North Pole They get there very quickly, it's an easy train ride He meets Santa, Santa gives him the bell, he goes home
[00:43:33] And the end of the book, the thing that always stuck with me Is the idea that he says I got it And I could listen to it, my parents couldn't hear it And the book is being narrated by the adult version
[00:43:45] And as I got older I could still hear it And then I had kids and then one day I stopped being able to hear it There's this sort of haunting quality to the book You read it as a child when so much of what you're reading
[00:43:55] Like Christmas mythology is about like Santa is real We all believe in it forever And like Christmas movies are usually about grumpy adults Needing to accept that Santa is real And this book is the opposite which is like No, someday you're not gonna need Santa anymore
[00:44:11] He's just not gonna be something that rings true to you anymore And I watched this movie the whole time Wondering how they were gonna thread that needle of that ending Which is the most potent thing in the entire book
[00:44:23] And instead of course, the movie does the exact opposite He's like I'm a good kid so I never grew up And I heard the bell forever, bye And now here's Josh Groban, good night My sister's a narc Josh take it away
[00:44:37] You know and I'll say too, like loving the book I remember the illustration is like beautiful Beautiful And then that this movie is dog shit Like it's trying to approximate the look of the sort of You know oil paintings from the book
[00:44:53] I mean he was like you know in addition to being I feel like this very big children's book author In terms of how sort of sticky his ideas were Like Jumanji and everything He also was just this amazing artist And the books looked so much more high quality
[00:45:09] Than other picture books at the time So effective in selling that like fuck This book looks like Christmas spirit Like it's hard to read it and not feel a little festive And Zemeckis' whole pitch on this Because Henkes buys the rights early
[00:45:24] Henkes bought a lot of children's books in the 90s Like he bought Where the Wild Things Are And Aunt Bully and this Like all these things that were in development hell For over a decade And then finally got made in the 2000s
[00:45:36] And he was like I'm buying it Cause my kids love it I think the book is good I'm signing on I'm gonna play the conductor in Santa And then no one ever fucking had any idea How to write a full movie out of this
[00:45:48] Rob Brown was supposed to do it for some period of time They go to Zemeckis I think Zemeckis writes the script One of the conditions On selling the rights to Henkes What's the guy's name? Chris Van Chris Van Arsdale? No no that's not
[00:46:03] No Chris Van Arsdale is one of the birthday boys I'm correcting it in my mind Chris Van Arsberg Shout out to Chris Van Arsdale But one of the conditions On selling the book to Henkes in the 90s was It cannot be animated
[00:46:18] I don't want this turned into a cartoon So I know that like Zemeckis signed on And then had to sell Right On the idea that it should be animated I think his argument was A. I wanted to look as much like your illustration As possible
[00:46:35] That's going to be hard to do in live action I think the illustrations of the whole mood And animation we can do that And B. If we did it live action It would cost a billion dollars If we did it animated it would only cost 160
[00:46:46] Which is this other weird thing Zemeckis was on about In the 2000s when he becomes like You know the fucking Henry Hill of Mocap Going from town to town telling everyone to try it Is like You can do these things that would cost
[00:47:01] Too much money in live action It's cheap Like that was his whole thing with Beowulf Was like I went to Neil Gaiman and I said Write the most expensive movie you can think of Because we can make it You can't do it in live action
[00:47:13] Well I think what's confusing about the fact that he And you're not You're mostly going to get into this in the future episodes But what's confusing about the fact that he Kept doing Mocap Is that this first one you can sort of Chalk up to like
[00:47:27] I believe that Zemeckis and Henkes like had this technology Put in front of them and they were showing in the Sort of rough like Draft form like here's what we can do for you Like here's what this shit can do And here's how fast it can do it
[00:47:41] And here's the things you can do which you've never been able to do As like a director on a set Stuff that was too expensive Or like a camera could never move this way Or like you know here's all the amazing things you can do
[00:47:53] And they were like great what a dream Camera moves and a huge part of it Joey Well maybe one of the biggest selling points Is Zemeckis you have to believe So I just I am perfectly willing to believe And give the benefit of the doubt of like
[00:48:06] He was showing shit where it's like Look how amazing this is going to be Yeah And then it did not work But what's confusing there is that he Why he just then kept trying and trying But that's going to probably going to be more of a
[00:48:19] A topic for your future episodes Yeah But in this one And this is you know gets too part of what I Sort of what I love about this What I love about this movie is the moments Where you the moments where you get it
[00:48:35] The moments where you get like why he wanted to do this Is stuff like the sequence with the ticket Like the one shot sequence with the ticket Flying out of the train And then flying all over like All the world all going through this whole journey
[00:48:49] Where it's like in a bird's nest And it's like in a pack of wolves And it's like flying around and all this stuff Like flying around and all of a sudden You know the one shot in those moments I get it
[00:48:59] I'm like I get why this seems so cool to you It's just like the Spielberg long shots In in in Tintin where it's like Right He's just like I can do these things That like I could never have dreamed of It's it's wild though
[00:49:12] Because I feel like the Tintin Shot is the example Of that that works And I haven't seen Christmas Carol But Bay Wolf he does an almost identical Shot like a long overhead shot that I think is from the perspective of like a bird or
[00:49:28] something that ends up like traversing across land goes into a tavern there's like a woman with her hand on her hip it goes in the crook in between her arm and her waist like it goes through a glass like he's just doing all this fucking
[00:49:43] David Fincher keyhole like panic room shit but it's similarly I remember and I like beowulf when I saw in theaters I remember the audience having an adverse reaction to seeing that in 3d i max whereas actually just like fucking too
[00:49:59] much like too fucking much slow it down Bobby and Spielberg with Tintin is smart about trying to make it look and operate like something that could be a very complicated shot even though it couldn't really you know it's like he
[00:50:17] has it function as if it were on tracks even though it's impossible for tracks to be that long David do you like that long shot yeah sure whatever I mean it's something I like it when there's look look we got a dig into the plot or
[00:50:33] whatever I guess but I mean I don't know if I've ever seen a film that is more exclusively based around happenstance this is just a movie where every 10 minutes a thing happens none of it has any correlation to anything else there's
[00:50:49] no reason why anything happens there's no reason why this happens to these characters like I have I've rarely seen a movie not even attempt to make the argument for why these characters are at the center of the movie you know it's
[00:51:03] just like here are just some kids they've been asked to come on this train for no apparent reason there's not a kid he's got to be by himself just how it is right but it's not like oh they all have very specific lessons
[00:51:17] they need to learn until the end where he sort of tries to retrofit lessons on to them that don't really feel like we're character defects I don't even feel like they learned them right yeah well central to the central problem I think
[00:51:35] that creates all of those weird plot contrivances and that makes it all a mess is the conductor and it's because they could not figure out they never decided and this sort of gets to the weird tonal confusion of the movie as a
[00:51:49] whole they never decided is the conductor a kind grandfather Lee figure who looks after these kids and is like guiding them on this beautiful journey or is he a monster yeah he's a train fucker he's a classic train fucker
[00:52:06] yeah chaotic evil I vote for chaotic evil I think he's like a trickster God like he's like a Loki type you know what I mean like he's a mischief maker but like I was watching this this behind the scenes side by side footage and and
[00:52:21] like to answer that very question Joey like what was Hanks's intention in this performance is there something that's just not coming across and watching it it's like no he was trying to be brisk he was trying to
[00:52:33] play this weird sort of emotionally distant like sort of like blunt you know it's sort of authority figure but when you filter that through very rudimentary technology that also makes him a lifeless robot so there's not
[00:52:50] even any sort of comedy to him playing like a grump you know it's just sort of like he really does feel like some malicious force he feels he's mean he's mean to the kids constantly yelling at them his rules
[00:53:07] of his train are are all over the place and make no sense I'm sorry there's just one rule it's never cool but go on no no my favorite thing is that he repeats the note both with hero boy have
[00:53:22] we said that he's hero boy yet but that's a little boy is his name Ben some character names for you the poor kid is eventually named as Billy that's the only one who ever gets a proper name in the entire film okay he's
[00:53:37] the gay kid let's be real but anyway Tom Hanks plays hero boy okay Tom Hanks is as an adult man did all the motion capture and that early teaser that you mentioned Joey when that teaser came out if you rewatch it online it is Tom
[00:53:54] Hanks's voice as hero boy I think they thought they could just pitch up Tom Hanks's voice and use that for the movie at some point that we got to get a kid because there's a weird he goes like well yeah common aboard and then you just
[00:54:08] hear Tom Hanks go who is she brave girl is that who she is with her name she's hero girl she's hero girl Eddie Dezen is know it all then lonely boy who later gets called Billy yes and that's it right yes and then it's all like
[00:54:30] Dr. Santa boy elf general Santa conductor hobo Scrooge puppet puppet their narrator like they all just have titles other than of course Smokey and steamer the two haphazard we'll get to that train and dynamic duo but I think
[00:54:49] the other thing I need to say about the conductor is that he repeats the same mistake twice in a row despite the fact that apparently his whole job in the world is running the polar express which is that both with the hero boy and
[00:55:00] then again with the sad boy when they are initially like disturbed by this train that is materialized out of nowhere and like don't know what to do because their children and they're like is this real what should I have
[00:55:12] what should I get on he's just like all right fuck you then and he's like gets back on the train and they start moving he's got no bedside manner it's also there's something very unsettling about that scene when Kira boy watches
[00:55:27] Billy the lonely boy not get on the train right right where where you see the distant window version from behind of essentially the scene we saw 10 minutes earlier and the conductor is saying word for word the exact same
[00:55:43] thing like there's something very bizarre about the performance of it where he's in the exact same time going like well are you coming aboard or not like it's the exact same it's like being on a theme park ride where you can hear
[00:55:58] the robot that's like a mile ahead of you saying the dialogue that you'll hear in a couple of minutes right it's a look it's a it's a kid's movie blah blah whatever but like internal logic is is important nonetheless and so
[00:56:16] that's where it just gets lost with this conductor character because then later he's mad that they pull the emergency brake and then when he finds out that they did it so the sad boy could get on the train he's like oh
[00:56:25] well what a noble thing that was like you just told that kid to go fuck himself a second ago like this character makes no sense and is yeah it's like he's not to make light of this but it's almost it's almost like he's
[00:56:38] like bipolar or something like what his mood is or his attitude towards these kids is like different in every scene or even within the same scene really destabilizing as you watch this movie. Sorry, what did you just say?
[00:56:52] I said bipolar express David I believe there's a point on your desk you might want to hold up right about now. Oh, five comedy. Wow I never thought. Wow God. It is I feel like there is a classic children's storytelling trope of
[00:57:11] like the adult authority figure who seems like a menacing asshole and then ultimately reveals to have ulterior positive thoughtful motivations. You know there's like the Willy Wonka thing of like I'm trying to trick you but I care it's all a test.
[00:57:29] It's kind of a Harry Potter trope that comes in a lot you know Dumbledore is very hot and cold often you know yeah classic like trying to win your parents attention and affection dynamic I guess I don't know. But this guy is just such an asshole.
[00:57:45] And there's some indications as you get to the end of the movie and he's becomes much kinder in the sort of last Santa Claus part that that might have been some idea they had but it's just too all over
[00:57:55] the place and there's too many problems like the fact that in the latter half of the movie he apparently has noticed the fact that he's lost like four of these children on a North Pole but didn't he doesn't dain to do anything about it.
[00:58:09] But again that yeah so it's not clear which just speaks to how haphazardly this screenplay was. This whole fucking thing of like so Hanks options the screenplay himself he goes I would like to play the conductor I'm sorry yes
[00:58:24] option to book himself I would like to play the conductor and Santa. So when Rob Reiner is working on this movie when he brings Zemeckis on everyone has the clear marching orders Hanks is going to play the conductor
[00:58:36] in Santa which means the conductor now needs to be a major character which I mean who the fuck is the conductor who gives a shit. I don't read that book and go like I want to know what's going on
[00:58:47] in the front engine you know I'm sure David does but it's like the train his means to an end to meet Santa Claus. The book is not that much about a perilous train ride and certainly
[00:58:58] not that much about this inscrutable conductor but by him signing on to it the guy needs to have a lot of real estate then Zemeckis has the idea what if you played every character so they tested out what if he's
[00:59:11] literally every single character and they said Hanks found it too exhausting so then they scale it down to a manageable seven. It's five he plays the conductor the hobo Santa hero boy Scrooge puppet hero boys hero boys dad like you know briefly right
[00:59:31] hero hero boy hero boys dad right narrator. I seen I was like starting to dig into this there because watching this movie it is so devoid of any meaning right. It doesn't even have like a consistent theology in and of itself let alone relation to anything that anyone
[00:59:51] believes in the world other than the very abstract idea of belief that there's in the train I guess the sequence where they lose the pin and everything is going haywire you can briefly see a flux capacitor
[01:00:07] can bind with the fact that this movie is set in 1955 the year that Marty goes back to there is an online rabbit hole of people who believe that the conductor is the grown up version of the hero boy no way. No fuck this.
[01:00:22] David here's the thing I don't I don't buy this for a second. But I think it is so telling that in a way that's not like, you know, oh people want to read that fucking Andy's mom is Jesse's
[01:00:34] owner from Toy Story 2 right which is just like there's no evidence of that there are people just like the idea of having a clever take. This movie almost needs you to come up with some fucking unified thread like there's desperation of like I don't know I guess OK.
[01:00:49] So the director makes a reference to his own movie that explains why it's time travel that explains the conductor's behavior. You know he's nice because it's himself, but none of that supported by the movie. The more likely explanation, you know,
[01:01:02] the only way that you can try to make sense of why this movie is just just strings together a series of like of incidents that have no relation to one another and it's so totally weird and all of that is is that it feels
[01:01:15] like what Zemeckis was more interested in was like what he could pull off visually and that they weren't that concerned. Weren't that concerned with the screenplay? Yeah, I would believe that. But it is then interesting. I guess they just sort of like it's just events.
[01:01:33] They just sketch it. I was like so the train will arrive. That's an event. Hot chocolate. That's an event. The ticket. That's right like, you know, they just they're just like it'll just be all
[01:01:42] set pieces where we get to do crazy things with the camera and it's all wonder it'll be all wonder for the kids. They'll never seen anything like it. It's spectacle. It's Christmas right like that's how you that's how you do this. Right.
[01:01:58] What weirdos like me or into this movie are left with is that you have like a musical you throw you throw in a musical number. So they're like what can happen next? Like a musical number. What's what's it going to be? It's going to be about hot chocolate.
[01:02:09] Like, I don't know. And a bunch of waiters come out and they create floating tables and they do flips and they serve hot chocolate and Tom Hanks sings and says the word chocolate really weird. And because it's not like a visual like wonder in the way that they
[01:02:25] had intended or hoped, it's instead just it's very unsettling. And it's just it's I don't know. It's trans fixing. You're clearly into it. I mean you sent us an extended YouTube version of this song. It's saying we had to listen to it. I was listening by the way.
[01:02:49] Oh, did you watch the other video though Ben? No, all right. You're in. You should watch that video. But anyway, we'll get to that. Yeah. So then it's just right. So the it's instance of the musical number is one example. And then there's the whole crazy ticket sequence.
[01:03:09] And then you have the hobo, which is just. Oh boy. The whole lot going on with the. You speak to another like. Who is the conductor? Why does he make the choices? He does what are the rules of this train? Hero girl doesn't have a ticket.
[01:03:29] So he drags her off the train above the train in the middle of the cold. It seems violent, the racial implications of it, especially for the time in which it said incredibly uncomfortable. And the reveal is no, he promoted me to be the conductor.
[01:03:44] It's a train for Criella. And it's made for you to move through it without having to go to the roof. Why is Billy seemingly in the luxury car? Like Billy's in like the VIP car by himself. Right. For a good chunk of the movie.
[01:03:59] All of it is so strange. It's also just like. This no character in this movie has any interiority, right? No character in this has any exteriority. Don't have facial expressions for get interiority. Got a creepy hobo lives on top of the train has appeared.
[01:04:17] So OK, like if the point of this, if the whole like message of this movie has been like you got to believe like this kid just needs to just need to be everyone's telling him you just got to have faith.
[01:04:26] Then like you're going to have this hobo figure come along and like maybe be the like the devil on his shoulder, you know, maybe me boy like now. It like trust your trust your instincts. It's all a lie. It's all but that isn't really what he does.
[01:04:39] No, the hobo is super magical. Go ahead. What does he represent? Please the hobo is the key to everything. OK, so this is another online rabbit hole. I went down that some people theorize that the hobo is supposed
[01:04:53] to represent the Holy Ghost in a way that I presume is Santa Claus is the father and the conductors, the son or hero boys, the son. Maybe hero boys, the son. Yeah, I don't know. But it does feel like you watch this movie and you're like there has
[01:05:09] to be some codex that decipherers at least what their intentions were. Like the whole time I'm watching, I was like, what does this feel like? Oh, it feels like watching some weird propaganda recruitment film for a cult and they just keep on using this buzzwords or this language.
[01:05:27] And I'm like, this is all like circular. What's what's the thing that unlocks it for me of what they're actually saying? You have to believe in like, you know, you have to believe in the magic
[01:05:39] of this train, but and again, not to get overly obsessive about the plot. Please like about like the plot mechanics, but like you have to believe in the magic of this train, this train, which we then discover for the sake of them having a big action sequence
[01:05:52] is run is being driven by two like total morons who don't know how to drive a train and they end up like ended up in like mortal peril and the kids have to like rescue the train.
[01:06:04] And it just sort of like it just it just the whiplash of like, this is a magic train that takes you magically to the North Pole. But also it's very poorly run. Right. It's barely going to make it. We are on the edge of our seat.
[01:06:18] But also like, OK, unifying thread like in a Charlie and the Chocolate Factory way where it's like each of these kids has like an inherent sin, right? An inherent character flaw. They represent extreme archetypes of like youths, you know,
[01:06:35] these kids have no personality, but they also just have no wants other than I guess I'll get on a train. Like there's no reason why they're collected other than the fact that all of them happen to live directly next to train tracks. What a fucking nightmare.
[01:06:52] How close all these houses are to train tracks because this boy doesn't seem to imply like, oh, these are magical tracks that only appear. They might be magic. I couldn't think about it. I couldn't figure that out. I it's plausible that they are magic train tracks.
[01:07:07] I we never really know what his normal life is like, right? Fine, I will give the movie that one thing. But this is the point I wanted to make. You hear Hanks as an adult saying the thing of like, I lay there in bed
[01:07:20] hoping for the one noise. What do we know about this kid? He really wants Santa to show up and he hears a noise. He goes out his door. He sees the silhouette of what he thinks is Santa Claus.
[01:07:29] Jingle in a jangling. No, it's just his father played by the same actor who will later play Santa Claus carrying his sister played by Robert Zemeckis's due wife. And then the kid goes back to bed, disappointed, right? And this is as much character shading as he's ever given,
[01:07:49] which is apparently this incident broke his spirit. Being confused for one moment that perhaps the shadow of his father was in fact Santa Claus, the rejection of that moment killed his belief in Santa Claus enough that when he wakes up
[01:08:05] an hour later and is told to get on a train, he's dubious. When he gets on the train, he's dubious. When people start communicating things to Santa Claus about him, he's dubious. When he gets to the North Pole, he's dubious. When he meets the elves, he's dubious.
[01:08:19] When he's inside Santa's fucking toy sack, he's dubious. And then he meets Santa. He sees the bell. He doesn't hear it. And then they go, I think you got to believe harder. And then he finally decides to start believing. What? What? What is this fucking kids deal?
[01:08:38] What made him turn off believing that fast? What made him turn it on again that quickly? Why is he so resistant to the best evidence anyone will ever get of Santa Claus existing? And then it's just about how he was fully converted into the dogma of Santa.
[01:08:53] And while all other adults go on and pursue other interests, he just keeps on ringing this bell for the rest of his fucking life end of a movie. There isn't as much to say about the latter section once we're in the North Pole,
[01:09:07] but it is again kind of weird because most of the space that they move through in the extended fairly boring sequence where they're like trying to get back to the town square are all huge, like empty, like barren spaces
[01:09:22] where you occasionally see a couple of elves like working at a computer or whatever. And it's like it's kind of bleak. Like it's kind of doesn't really it's not really a very happy environment.
[01:09:33] And it's very blank and just sort of, I don't know, it's like very like industrial. And so again, you're just left at a total loss of what this movie is like going for.
[01:09:48] If it's like every now and then they'll just for fun throw in a little bit of commentary of like, oh, wouldn't it be funny if the elves were just kind of like guys from New Jersey
[01:09:55] or like working in an office and they're like this, but then it's like no, no. But actually they're magical and it's all and it's all amazing. And just forget we did that. That was just that was just for fun.
[01:10:07] It also is wild and it raises so many more questions seeing like the physical structures of the North Pole itself and being like, they have like tall buildings and like a clock tower. Like I feel like most depictions of the North Pole are like,
[01:10:21] here is Santa's house and here are the barracks where the elves sleep. And his house is also where the work benches are. You know, it's just like a little collection of like cottages or whatever in the middle of the snow and it's like no.
[01:10:34] This is like the streets are paved with cobblestone. There are multi-story buildings. Like are there businesses to the elves like populate this town? Are there elf baristas who don't make toys or is this just a factory town where there's one fucking job
[01:10:50] and they get one night out here to cut loose or there's two people. There are in fact there are four people while five of you include. All right, there's five people in the North Pole City, Santa Claus himself,
[01:11:02] the conductor. He lives there the rest of the year, right? Yeah, sure. Male elves, female elves, Stephen Tyler. Those are the five. Those are the five Mrs. Claus. What the fuck? I don't know, but we see male and female elves. There are female elves that have breasts.
[01:11:21] Otherwise they're exactly the same as the male elves. There is Stephen Tyler. And of course, there's the two Tom Tom Hanks characters. That's it. That's who we got. That's another thing we're like aside from just obviously this is a Tom Hanks movie.
[01:11:34] We need to give the audience enough Tom Hanks. We need to give Tom enough reasons to want to be in this movie. Most children's stories in particular where roles are double cast, it has some sort of thematic meaning like the classic Peter Pan thing
[01:11:50] of like having the same actor play Captain Hook, you know? Or, you know, the Wizard of Oz thing of like mirroring the guys at the farm to the ten men and the Cowardly Lion and the Scarecrow, whatever. This is just like the relationship between the hobo,
[01:12:07] the conductor, Santa Claus and the boy's dad is very odd, especially because they all are different digital renders of Tom Hanks, especially because they all recognizably sound like Hanks and look like Hanks. They're just the sliders are adjusted a little bit.
[01:12:25] Just another way in which the movie feels like sort of an early version of them with this technology, like trying out some things and one of the things that they thought would be cool and crazy is like, what if Tom Hanks played
[01:12:35] all these characters will make them look different? So it'll work. And then they were like, well, we're not doing that again. But then they do with Jim Carrey, but I've never seen that night. I haven't seen that either.
[01:12:46] But that tracks for me conceptually of like, oh, get the same actor to play Scrooge and play the three ghosts like that sure works in a way. Right, because it's like he's confronting aspects of himself. This makes a little less sense unless as you say, Griffin,
[01:13:03] you just kind of try and go bananas deep with it where you're like, this is clearly about Jesus. You know, like if there has to be something going on, this is a back to the future allegory. I don't know. Like you're just like you're just desperately figuring out
[01:13:16] or you could try to make it like well. But Tom Hanks plays his dad. So is he like is he like seeing his dad and all these people, except you barely see the dad? So that's a problem.
[01:13:25] Like if there was anything with the fucking dad at the beginning, other than him killing his son's spirit by merely walking through a door, then maybe there'd be some meat on the bone there. But as it is, you're like, if it's all just reflections
[01:13:38] of this kid's perception of his dad, there's not enough grounding to go off of there. Are they all supposed to be different depictions of God? You understand running to that as a theory because you need something to hold on to. Or are they all reflections of the boy?
[01:13:53] I mean, it's. Joey, do you have a grand unified theory or are you more just fascinated with this as a strange chaos reigns? Yeah, right. Yeah, just like a weird thing. I'm fascinated in the sense that like I can't make any argument for the
[01:14:10] the order and arrangement in which these individual sequences come one after the other. But every single one of them individually, I love like I love watching like the weird musical number. I love watching that the whole that long ticket shot and that whole
[01:14:25] like ticket like sequence, even though it doesn't make any sense. The really fancy camera work in the train sequence where they have to like turn the train around on the ice and then run the water in arguably the best sequence in the move.
[01:14:40] The you would say that the lake sequence is really cool. I love that. That was I think it also helps that it's the sequence, at least dependent on human character humans. Exactly. That's why it's cool.
[01:14:52] And it's just a weird idea and it's something you could never do in you know, in a live action movie. But carrying on, Jeff, finish your thought. That's basically it. And going back to the the link that you you would mention that I'd sent to you guys.
[01:15:05] I had a man. One thing that I had a memory of there being more of which in fact, when we brought to realize I realized that there's actually fairly little of this was a ton of physical humor with the two
[01:15:16] like two train drivers, one of whom is played by character actor Michael Jeter and then I don't remember who plays the other one. No, he plays both. He plays both of them. Yes, but then weirdly someone else is credited with the voices.
[01:15:31] I was trying to parse this because there's pretty much four people credited for each character. I think because of doubles who needed to be doing Mo cap off of Hanks when he was playing one character, the children were largely redubbed from the adult actors who played them because
[01:15:48] like Scolari is playing lonely kid, but then there's another kid who did Mo cap for Hanks to act across. But then Jimmy Bennett did the voice like there's all this shit like that. But Jeter is credited as motion capture for both of them.
[01:16:03] Someone else is credited as voiceover for both of them. Jeter dies summer 03. So I wonder if it's a situation where A, his audio wasn't usable or B, they needed someone to fill in the gaps of what they didn't have because both of the voices sound like Jeter.
[01:16:20] It's like they pointedly hired someone to sound like. Yeah, it might have right. It might have just been that he died before they could finish his work or whatever. Right. Yeah. Right. So yet as a yet another example of something that
[01:16:32] happens in only one scene, the two train drivers. OK, now I realize they're both in, which is even better are like do this physical humor where they're like pulling on each other, pulling one's pulling on the other Beards and they're all
[01:16:44] like flying around the train car as they try to get control. At what point they like lose gravity and one of them eats the pin, all that stuff and all that kind of wacky physical humor is not really present anywhere, anywhere else a whole lot.
[01:16:59] But that is far and away my favorite part of the movie. That was the one time where I felt like the movie had some fucking lifeblood. It's super fun. And I feel like as much as it's a brief thing, who knows how much work
[01:17:10] Michael Jeter actually put into this thing. It feels like a moment or one of the rare moments where you can actually sort of feel like what the performer like like really brought brought to this in a way that actually does come through in the technology
[01:17:24] because as you will have seen in the link that I sent that to you guys that video, which I'm sure you will have to talk about it. Along with this, Michael Jeter was an incredible physical performer who like the all time great physical comedians.
[01:17:37] Yeah, who could move his body around in insane ways kind of like Bill Irwin asked and just this sort of you get a little taste of that. And then it also makes me sad to think about because I feel like at this
[01:17:52] moment in his career, Michael Jeter was sort of having like kind of a a moment where he was kind of becoming a go to right. Right. Like a character actor. Yeah, guy and he had been in your get roles like this going David. Right.
[01:18:08] Because he'd been in Jurassic Park three. He'd been in open range. He was going to pop it was post screen mile. I think he started to pop up in more movies in bigger character roles. It was clear that like whatever right.
[01:18:20] He had like crossed Hollywood's desk is like oh, this guy is this guy's a real spark plug like this is a great guy to have. But it's also so wild that by that point he was like a decade after having won
[01:18:33] two Emmys and a Tony like he was like this very awarded actor who somehow kind of never got his due. Yes. And so Joey sent us to be clear this clip of his performance at the Tonys. Nineteen ninety.
[01:18:53] Joey is at the nineteen ninety Tonys or eighty nine like it's the nineteen ninety Tonys. Yeah, right where he won who will first he performs a number from the musical Grand Hotel and then good. I watched it. It's like I watched it. It rules.
[01:19:11] So Joey, Joey, you talk about it for a second. In fact, you're the one who sent us this clip. It is a yeah. So the well this video is a one to of him performing this number
[01:19:21] and then later in the night him winning the Tony for I think I think right after musical because he was still right after he's right in the wings. Yeah, yeah. And the performance is just a perfect encapsulation of everything
[01:19:37] that he could do as well as a wonderful encapsulation of what musical theater can do even within a show that I'm not super familiar with the show, but I don't. The many people would say the show as a whole Grand Hotel,
[01:19:48] although it has its fans is not kind of a stodgy show. Yes, yes. I mean, based on a very stodgy old movie, right? It's got its following, but this number will take a glass together is just like this joyous burst of energy of like these
[01:20:03] two guys like dancing around with the with a big ensemble behind them, but mainly Jeter just throwing his body around the stage like he's a rag doll just in especially by the end and then just kick lining at the end.
[01:20:17] It's like the energy and the joy that it brings you to watch it, especially given that you don't expect someone who looks like him and has a physical presence like him to be able to do it. And then of course is followed by his speech where he talks
[01:20:30] about having had problems with alcohol and drug use. I mean, that's the thing like you see him do this joyous performance. Yes. Go ahead, go ahead. No, I was just going to say Michael Jeter looks like someone you could see in like a shelter.
[01:20:46] You know, I mean, he's so scrawny. He's got this push room mustache. He looks like he was born with aggressive male pattern baldness. Like everything about him is so sort of physically odd. And then he's got this sort of folksy voice.
[01:21:00] But yes, as a performer, he so often could do things like this. And he was also on Sesame Street at this time playing Mr. Noodle and then was succeeded by Bill Irwin. They very much were similar physical performers in terms of comedy.
[01:21:14] And he did end up playing a lot of creeps in movies. But seeing that performance, which is just like pure magical showbiz razzle dazzle and then hearing him talk about his demons is a pretty emotionally affecting combination. It's incredible.
[01:21:33] It happens to be the case that Polar Express was his final credit. It worth mentioning mostly in the sense of like that it's just a little like a glimpse at like what more like amazing work
[01:21:46] like that he was going to keep doing if he would have kept being sort of pulled up by Hollywood. Right, because he was he was only 50, right? Yeah, he was not that old. HIV related complications. Right. Ben, if I can just put him in perspective for you.
[01:22:02] He, of course, also was the scummy clown who was Air Buds original owner and airbud. Sure. Oh, OK. That's probably a big bone roll. Well, he's also he's in fear and loathing, Ben, which I have to imagine you've seen. Am I wrong?
[01:22:18] Yeah, I had the poster and influence me to take acid a bunch of times. So yeah. Yeah. I'm not sure. I can't remember who he plays in it, but he is in that as well. He was in a lot of stuff. Oh, yeah, I was wrong, too.
[01:22:32] He only won one Emmy for Evening Shade, but he was nominated three consecutive years. And that show was like this overhyped, over expensive CBS sitcom where everyone on the show was like a star and he was the guy broke out from it.
[01:22:48] But then, as you say, that's like 92. And then it takes the better part of the decade for him to start really translating to movies. And it felt like he was really starting to enter an exciting period of career when he passed watching this sequence.
[01:23:03] A, I think these are the two best designed characters in the film. I think what are their names? Steamer and fucking smoke stack or whatever. That sounds right. Smokey and steamer. I was pretty close. Pretty close. Smokey and steamer, I feel like are the only two characters
[01:23:23] who are on the right side of caricature. Like he really exaggerates their physical characteristics, the lengthiness of one roundness of the other to the point where it conquers the uncanny valley. And also it's like, here's a performer who is hyper physical,
[01:23:38] who is capable of moving like a cartoon, allowing you to really use the effect of motion capture in a way that technology can actually translate versus Hanks trying to do very, very subtle mannered performances. You know? Like it just doesn't connect like watching them just and knowing
[01:23:58] that he's doing slapstick with himself. It's just like, I don't know. I was into that and it underlined for me what I feel like this movie is closest to, but this scene is the only time it gets there is
[01:24:14] an excuse me for throwing out this reference point in a year where this was taken from us, David. But what this movie kind of feels like it's trying to emulate to me and I would not be surprised if it was a direct inspiration,
[01:24:28] like a noted inspiration for Zemakis. But this feels like the early Disneyland rides, like the rides that were like World's Fair rides that then became the flagships in the fifties and sixties like Pirates, the Caribbean and Haunted Mansion and the storybook rides
[01:24:42] where they're just like a slow vehicle moving through very immersive scenes where a lot of weirdly three dimensional caricature mannequins are like acting out little vignettes. And there's like sort of a story, but not really. You're just getting glimpses of like different set pieces.
[01:24:59] But it has that sort of old timey vibe to it and a similar kind of spirit to it. And those two characters feel like they're on the right side of like the best sort of comical pirates in the Pirates, the Caribbean ride, which fucking rules.
[01:25:16] But then the second, you know, they get to the fucking North Paul, I'm like more bored than I've ever been. Like that's my peak enjoyment at the movie. And then it falls off a cliff. Yes, he has no take on the elves. You know, he's nothing.
[01:25:30] Nothing funny is doing with that. It's not like there's no like what's the name of the guy who played all the oompa limpas? Deeper at the deep right. We say right. There's no like deep Roy type like idea where they're like, what if we did this?
[01:25:42] Like it's just there's just I don't know. They're small and they look weird. There's Charles Fleischer as the one like her marginally lead elf. Charles Fleischer, who's a legendary standup in the voice of Roger Rabbit is the one who's like, ah, come on,
[01:25:53] we got to get these kids moving. The one who's like. Right. Yeah. He's like watching it on TV or whatever. Right, but I hate all that shit. Hate. I hate that shit. Yeah. Yeah. The elves elves suck enough with this. Like he has this army of creeps.
[01:26:09] I hate this shit. And again, like it's fine when it's like Will Farrell because then the joke is isn't this whole elf thing weird? Right. You know, like, you know, that then it's he's making it the joke, but like they're creepy and like
[01:26:22] I can't stop asking questions about the autonomy of the elves too. Like when Elzer introduced a movie like this, I'm like, do they have their freedom? Is this indentured servitude? Where did they come from? Right. Yeah. It's all upsetting.
[01:26:39] Well, I mean, I hit the pause button when they got to the North Pole because I was curious. I was like, wow, so they're like five minutes of the movie left. And when I saw there were 50 minutes left, a chill ran down my spine.
[01:26:56] I mean, Joey, is there anything you stick up for in this sort of because like there's there's the thing where they get stuck in the sack. There's like, you know, like I would like to defend the giant sack. Yeah, that's the one take away. I have. Right.
[01:27:10] Let's have a little sack. Lives up to the logic of Santa having all those presents. It is big as hell. Yes. Yes. OK. Again, like the sort of bits, the more grounded bits that they try to throw in,
[01:27:28] like, oh, they also doing kind of a bad job, like taking this big sack and like dropping it on the on the on the Santa sleigh. Like, oh, and they almost like kill people in the process. It doesn't land because it's so confused
[01:27:43] because it's going to be followed up immediately by Santa appearing and being like this magical sort of like friendly father. Right. Yes. Yeah. Well, no, more than friendly grandfather, they give him a godlike presence and you can't have your cake and eat it.
[01:28:00] Well, they did, but you can't do that and then also be like, by the way, this organization that he runs fucking mess. That being said, I guess I would even having to completely contradict what I just said, which is in spirit of this movie,
[01:28:13] even having just said that I do find the sequence once Santa appears properly after Hero Boy is briefly very upset because he can't see him through a crowd. And we're like, the fuck you? What's the problem? Wait for him to walk closer.
[01:28:33] But once he actually appears and starts talking to him, I don't know, it has a kind of a it's a kind of something about it. I don't know. Something sort of good hypnotizing about it. Hanks almost makes the Santa scene work. I agree with you.
[01:28:47] But then you look at what Santa Claus actually says in these scenes in this scene, this bell is a wonderful symbol of the spirit of Christmas. As am I just remember the true spirit of Christmas lies in your heart. That means next to nothing. That's a negative statement.
[01:29:06] You somehow know less than when he started speaking. He says four things that are completely antithetical to one another. He says like this physical object is proof and I in front of you improve. But also the proof doesn't matter. All that matters is was in your heart.
[01:29:24] All the different messages or takeaways that you could be, he just says all of them. It's so convoluted. He's even saying like this bell is physical proof of my existence. But I don't matter. I'm just an idea. What do I represent? The spirit, the spirit of what?
[01:29:42] Me Christmas. That's the thing I kept saying because I was I would say to Forky, I would say to Emma like who I was sort of like, yeah, like having like talking about her dad's like what is this movie?
[01:29:55] Think Christmas is like I like it's not about being good to your fellow man or you know, like what you know what it like the spirit of giving or anything like that's just like you'll get a present. Is that is that what it is?
[01:30:09] It's bizarre that it extrapolates nothing else from Christmas other than getting presents and like the Ark of Billy, the lonely kid is he lives on the wrong part of town. He is poor. He doesn't like Christmas because he can't trust it.
[01:30:25] I guess the implication is because Christmas sucks for him. So they convince him to get on the train. They make him sit in a car separate from everyone else. That's nice. Which feels like some kind of mocking thing.
[01:30:40] And he sings a song about how much he loves Christmas and they're like Christmas. Great, honey. He's like, I don't know. I don't like it. I don't trust it. Why were you just singing that song? Then they go, do you want to meet Santa?
[01:30:50] He's like, I don't know. I should probably stay here in the train. Christmas isn't all it's cracked up to be. And at the end of the movie, he's the first kid dropped off. There's a present there and he holds it up victorious as proof
[01:30:59] that anyone can get toys. The weird rules once they get to the North Pole of like, you know how our rituals work, right? The most important thing is that Santa has to give out the first gift before Christmas can start in earnest before he can begin his flight.
[01:31:14] That's why we bring kids here on a train so that he can give the gift to one of the kids. How does he pick which kid he gives it to? I don't know. So the one whose name is Hero Boy, that sort of helps. Right.
[01:31:27] Then the kids are so over eager that they decide to break into Santa's lair to rummage through his sack themselves, which then leads to Christmas almost getting fucked up. That's cold. There is no repercussions. It's cold worthy. It's a cold worthy shit.
[01:31:45] Can I read this quote from Manola Dargis's review, which I remember at the time because I feel like she was pretty new at that point in 2004. At the time, certainly. Yeah. At the time. Yeah. Uh, the headline is do you hear sleigh bells?
[01:32:02] Nah, just Tom Hanks and some train. Which is great. But this is the the chunk that has been burned in my brain forever. I just remember my dad being like, you got to read this polar express review. She just folded this movie like laundry. She'd bodied them.
[01:32:18] He wasn't using those terms, but it was just like, this is savage. Right. Um, the line is, uh, here we go. Uh, Todd surely won't recognize that Santa's big entrance in front of the throngs of frenzied elves and awestruck children directly invokes however
[01:32:36] unconsciously one of Hitler's Nuremberg rally entrances in Lenny Ravenstall's triumph of the will. But their parents may marvel that when Santa's big red sack of toys is hoisted from factory four to sleigh, it resembles nothing so much as an airborne scrotum. That's I remember the Lenny. Leaveable writing.
[01:33:01] Right. I remember that because yes, the arrival of Santa is like fucking Saruman or something. It's bizarre, you know, like they did the shadow that he casts and all that, like, and it's like a immortal Joe. Like, you know, it's like, do not grow addicted to presents.
[01:33:20] It's like, and all the elves are like, I give you the gift of eggnog. And then he flips the switch and the eggnog pours on them. They're holding up their buckets. It's just so weird. Um, but that's the imagery.
[01:33:35] Having not seen this movie until tonight, I've spent the last what? Almost 17 years trying to imagine what this sack was going to look like, and it did not disappoint. It's big as hell. Big scrotum. I guess how two big nuts. Yeah.
[01:33:55] What else is there to say about this movie? In the end, it's the answer is just what can I tell you? I watch this movie or at least bits sequences of it over and over a lot and find it weirdly, weirdly reassuring.
[01:34:09] And it's just one of those for me. And who knows why? I think I think that is the story of this movie is like as much as this movie is an absolute freak show. It is a Christmas classic like that is watched all the time.
[01:34:26] Like I'm saying, yes. Right. I'm saying this like, like, like it can't be true, but I think it is. Like it's just that's what it is. I mean, talking about more lines that mean nothing, right? Because, Joe, you're like, why do I like this movie?
[01:34:40] The way to answer it is with some shit the conductor would say, right? Something like seeing is believing, but sometimes the most real things in the world are the things we can't see. What? Or what he says or. Oh, I think you're right, Joey. The thing about trains.
[01:34:59] It doesn't matter where they're going. What matters is deciding to get on. I'd say that's almost the direct opposite of the thing about trains. Trains famously, you should figure out where it's going before you decide to get on.
[01:35:15] You don't just like get to like, you know, Grand Central Station and be like, Trek 42 for me today. Like, you know, that's not how it works. Nothing bad has ever happened to someone who got on the wrong train. That's the message of this film.
[01:35:28] A few things I want to spotlight quickly. Leslie Zemeckis plays Sister Sarah and also the mom in this movie. They had gotten married in between Castaway and this. She, I believe, was predominantly a burlesque performer when they met.
[01:35:46] There is that weird moment when they go into the car of all the abandoned toys. Oh yeah, we didn't even talk about that. Which the right, the mythology of that is very weird where it's like, well, the big guy wants us to reclaim the forgotten toys
[01:35:59] so we could someday maybe salvage them. Now they just sit here in the dark all fucked up. No one touches them. Then the one Scrooge Marionette tries to assault the boy saying, like, you're like me, you don't believe in anything, right?
[01:36:14] But there's a moment where the kid is walking through all the Marionettes and he stops on one Marionette that is a burlesque performer and like holds it and looks at it longingly for a little while.
[01:36:25] And I'm pretty certain that is supposed to be a likeness of Leslie Zemeckis, which is a very, very weird moment. It is like a lady in like a vava of room, like V cut black slip and a feather bow. That's weird that that whole looks like his wife.
[01:36:42] All sequences weird. Hot, hot. We got it. Hot, hot. We got it. Where do they go after they've done their number? Where were where those guys at? Great question. Great question. Just like Santas like, all right, all right. OK, OK, OK, everyone be quiet.
[01:36:59] Here's all right. I'm going to need two billion elves, one conductor. Stephen Tyler, obviously five. We're going to need a rail system so I can pick up 14 kids. Can we also get Steven Tyler, a solid gold unicycle,
[01:37:16] but also an extra long microphone stand with a wheel at the bottom of it so it can follow him around on the cycle. But of course, it has to have flair. It wouldn't be right. Right. Right. Yes. But it was Santa's like, I'm not done.
[01:37:29] I'm not for the to drive the train. Anyone I don't fucking care any idiot. I don't care at all. Right. It could be two dumb people. It could be a little girl who doesn't have a ticket. It doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Definitely be people that are inappropriate
[01:37:45] to be around children. Yeah, right, right. If the train has a little bit of that's fine. I can't really deal with that guy. He has his own sort of way of doing things and oh, and like five tap dancing hot chocolate guys.
[01:38:00] We need to have the kids hot chocolate. Can we get some chocolate boys or what? I'm not a monster. Hanks famously turned down Toy Story when it was first offered to him without even reading the script because it was an animated Disney film.
[01:38:15] And he was like, I can't sing. I can't be in a musical. And they had to like follow up with him and be like, no, we're like doing something different here. It's not a fairy tale movie. It's not a musical. And he was like, oh, thank God.
[01:38:27] OK, if I don't have to sing, then that's fine. But just like, don't trick me into singing. And then Toy Story 2, there's the moment where they see him, the woody puppet singing, You've Got a Friend and Me on TV. And he always talks about like Pixar got me.
[01:38:40] They finally got me. They tricked me into doing a song. This movie being a soft musical with songs by Alan Silvestri and Glenn Ballard, the man who co-wrote Jagged Little Pill is so bizarre, especially because your lead actor who's playing seven characters refuses to sing.
[01:38:59] So he's only really involved in one musical number, which is just him yelling stuff semi rhythmically. Did we say this already? Alan Silvestri wrote this song, wrote this song. Yes. How many times did he just write hot, hot on a piece of paper?
[01:39:15] He co-wrote it with the man who co-wrote Jagged Little Pill. Fuck, what? So fucking weird. How? What's the other song called? But the end credit song. Believe. It's believe. That's what it's called. Right. He also wrote that, right? Right. That song is a bag of dog dick.
[01:39:36] And it's it is just crazy where they're like, ah, this movie is not complete until we just have a fucking awful. Oh, yeah, bro. Then just that's the worst shit which has got like an autopilot Oscar nomination. Of course, I cannot imagine any of them. Listen to it.
[01:39:51] Did he perform that trash on the Oscars? He must. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I remember it. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And it was one of those things. Gold's like a cycle with a roller. Mike said it was one of those things for say. All right, let's go.
[01:40:05] I'm going to go right because this is the year where it's like this is the year where the nominees are so fucking bad that it's almost a crisis. So you've got this shit. You've got something from,
[01:40:16] I think it's a French movie called the chorus called Look to your yeah. Yeah, that was the biggest hit in France. Yeah, you've got accidentally in love from Shrek to by the counting crows guy. Right? Yeah. Yeah, you've got learn to be lonely.
[01:40:30] The absolute vomit that Anthony Lloyd Webber'd like puked out like to add to Phantom of the Opera nomination. Well, because it was nothing else. And so the winner was the song from the motorcycle diaries, like, which is not a musical. Remember, is Dream Girls 2006? Yeah, right.
[01:40:54] Because that's the year where they're like this category is a disaster. We haven't had good nominees in years and Dream Girls got three out of five nominations and since then it's almost always seven. It's three nominees. Right. Yeah, it kind of it's weird.
[01:41:07] It kind of expands and contracts. It's a weird category. But they made the the qualifications for nomination a lot more stringent. Like I just feel like they've been trying to prevent that kind of shit from getting nominated again. Definitely, definitely.
[01:41:23] I think I think the last thing I want to just briefly shout out. This is kind of the last major film role of Nona Gay, who I have always found very compelling and I thought was going to be a big star.
[01:41:37] And we've covered almost the entirety of her filmography on this podcast because it's essentially the Matrix sequels, which she fills in for Aliyah after Aliyah passes away Ali and what she's really good. And then before that, it's like she's in a video as herself.
[01:41:55] She's an extra in Harlem Nights as a child. But it's Ali, Matrix Reloaded, Matrix Revolutions, Crash, the same year as this. Then Polar Express, Polar Express, the video game, the Matrix Online video game. And then 2005 triple X state of the union.
[01:42:12] Yeah, 2005, some movie called The Gospel 2009 Blood and Bone, never seen again. Never seen again. It's weird. She is very charming in the Matrix movies and in Ali. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what her story is.
[01:42:25] No, I do. It's just like this is her last major thing. Yeah, it's weird. Yeah, very odd. Yeah. So this movie as Griff and I were sort of briefly discussing before the recording started, opened poorly because they opened it at before Thanksgiving. They opened it November 12th, 2004.
[01:42:47] I thought it was October for some reason, but it was November. OK. And like people were like, well, that was dumb. You know, people sort of did the like, what were they thinking? And it's like then it did what it was, I guess, what they had bet on,
[01:43:00] which was it just played like gangbusters all the way through Christmas and became this surprise sort of surprise hit. It was kind of a comeback hit like it made three hundred million dollars worldwide. That's very much the modern release strategy for holiday films
[01:43:15] because they're like if you release a movie in December, no one goes to see a Christmas movie on December like 26th, like the second Christmas day has passed. No one wants to watch a Christmas movie. So you need to give it like a month of lead time
[01:43:30] and then it experiences a second wind in December. Like Elf was in November release as well. But this one, it felt early and it underperformed the opening weekend and then just fucking lingered and multiplied.
[01:43:44] I think the IMAX helped them like the word of mouth on IMAX was good and that was at surcharge and that continued to play. They continue to re-release it every year and it would make another couple of million dollars every fucking year for a while
[01:43:58] until there just became too much IMAX competition. I will say as a fan of 3D, this movie works really well in 3D, not just from a technological standpoint, but some mech is a smart visual filmmaker in terms of knowing how to frame things to play well in 3D
[01:44:14] and his basic composition style has a lot of depth in it and is very blocking dependent. And even the way he uses his camera movements is very, very effective in 3D and this movie, Watch at Home in 3D has a very effective move it does
[01:44:31] that Marnsquare says he got a bunch of fucking credit for doing 10 years later in Hugo, which is the thing where like Sasha Baron Cohen is interrogating the kid and he like leans in and it's like he's leaning into the audience.
[01:44:45] Like it's a close up that feels like it's invading your space. And he does that with like the hobo in this and it's very effective. So that's the best argument for this movie existing. All right, Polar Express. But here's the thing that's all right.
[01:44:58] So this is a box office with the top five movies. Four of them are new. Wow. Four are new. The only old movie is last week's number one. This week's number one. It's made a hundred and forty three million dollars. We've discussed it on the podcast.
[01:45:20] What is interesting? Oh, it's the Incredibles. It's the Incredibles. Yeah. That was the other thing people were like, what are they doing releasing an animated film a week later? This juggernaut like what are they idiots like? Yeah. So the Incredibles, Joey, one of our favorite movies. Number one.
[01:45:38] And that was Pixar's biggest opening weekend ever to like their opening against the second weekend of the biggest opening Pixar had had. Right. But then weirdly, like I feel like every Pixar movie had kind of out grossed
[01:45:52] the previous one, Nemo had been so huge that people thought Incredibles was going to do Nemo style numbers and it came in a little under. And I wonder if that's Polar Express stealing a little bit of its repeat viewing. Right. Right. Right. Right.
[01:46:07] And but here's the other thing. So we have done the Incredibles weekend. So sometimes that's a problem for us because you know, but no, Ray, the grudge saw Alfie all out of the top five because there's four new movies.
[01:46:19] Number two is the Polar Express opening at twenty three. Million dollars looks like it's 30. I think it opened on a Wednesday or something like that. Yeah. What is number three? It is a oh boy. Oh boy.
[01:46:33] I guess an action comedy from a fairly major director for the moment. Not a good director, but you know, a hit maker and it is sort of a forgotten movie from him kind of like a kind of like a throwback eighties sort of a sleazy action comedy.
[01:46:54] I've never seen it. Is it a two hander? No, it's like not a pair. I get four people above the title. You know, kind of like, look, we got a lot of cool and interesting people. And it's like it has this really vague title. Tower.
[01:47:10] This is a tower. No, but but it's after the sunset. There you go. Brett Ratner. Joey was on the on the trail of Brett Ratner there, but it was Rosnan Hayek, Harrelson and Cheetle and Cheetle. That's right. Yeah. You also got Naomi Harris. You got Michael T.
[01:47:31] Williamson, Troy Garrity. There's people Chris Penn. Fundamentally does not exist. Yeah. What the fuck is that movie? Yeah. It's like, you know, it's one of those movies where it's like, you imagine someone saying we got to get over all these guys,
[01:47:46] but I actually have no idea like who is getting over on what. I feel like in my memory, that was one of the last or the last movies where Pierce Brownsland was still trying to pretend to like he was still like to be a non bond star.
[01:48:02] Like I can launch any movie, but also that he was trying to still be like hot and then he sort of did a shift where he was like, what if I just started bracing my age and for like more like
[01:48:13] character is and that and then he was like, all right, this works better. That's him sort of doing Steve McQueenie kind of stuff. That movie, I feel like five wise. Correct. Correct. Because the same year is laws of attraction where like the lawyer
[01:48:26] Romcom he did with Julianne Moore and the year after is the Matador, which is him being like, I'll play an anti hero. I'll play a washed up guy. I'll get a golden gold nomination. All right. Number four.
[01:48:39] So after the sunset, by the way, opened to 11 million and made 28. All right. Number four is a horror sequel. Hmm. It's not the ring to know it is. I want to say I'm going to, it's the fifth in a long running,
[01:48:59] but recently revived, you know, at this point in time franchise saw. No, not so. No, so I was about to emerge. It sounds been rebooted. So it's fifth in total, but there was a gap. They took a break for a little while. You're saying that's right.
[01:49:15] There's three, then there's a gap and then there's a relaunch with kind of a new tone that people were into. And so they were like, okay, all right, we'll do this in 2004, you say. And how many have there been since then?
[01:49:31] There has only been two since then and then a reboot, a maligned reboot. And I believe some maybe the next two might have been kind of straight to the end. It's not the Texas Chainsaw Prequel, is it? It's not. It's not. It's a franchise you like, Griffin.
[01:49:52] It's a franchise I like. Oh, oh, it's Seed of Chucky. Seed of Chucky. That's the one right because Brida Chucky is the one where they're like, do you like this tone and people are like, yes. So Seed of Chucky is the one that's really bananas, right?
[01:50:09] Like, it's really going for meta. It's also the one where they let Don Mancini directed, who had written all the films and had steered the weird evolution of the franchise. And he was just like, I'm going full.
[01:50:21] Like Seed of Chucky is like a John Waters movie down to John Waters playing a paparazzi and Chucky murdering Britney Spears. It's just vulgarity, but it kind of rules. It's like a trauma film. I believe like Red Man is like fourth built, you know? Absolutely. That's the right.
[01:50:38] Right. And Jennifer Tilly, who played a woman who then becomes gets her spirit trapped in a doll plays in this movie. Jennifer Tilly, the actress, who then also fucks Chucky. Correct. Correct. Yeah. Seed of Chucky. I should see this movie. Yeah.
[01:50:55] I mean, you would dig that whole series, Ben. All right. And their son is named Glenn as a Glenner Glenda joke. It's a very odd film. Yes. Number five is a sequel. Okay. Maybe a slightly more whatever. It's a sequel.
[01:51:11] I think this movie was probably like, well, well, will be a huge hit. And it was a disappointment in America. But this movie made two hundred and sixty million dollars worldwide. It made forty in America, but America was not. And I lived in Britain.
[01:51:28] And when this movie came out, it was like, we're going everybody. Come on, come on, come on. Round up the house. We're going to the Odeon Newcastle. We're going to fucking see this thing because it and like the theater was packed and was howling.
[01:51:42] This movie stinks, but it was a big deal in Britain. But it's a comedy comedy, comedy sequel. And they never made another one, even though this one Oh, they did like more than a decade later. They did 12 years later. They made a third one.
[01:51:59] Is it Big Mama's House two? No, no, no. That was a spring release. Britain. Britain did not care about Big Mama's House. That's what I'm trying to figure. It's not Mr. Bean's holiday. It's not no, no, that's more, you know, right? That makes for right.
[01:52:14] I try to think of big, big spaced out sequels. You might forget that one this was made and that two the other one that the later is a Johnny English returns. No, again, you're, you know, you're sniffing around the right area.
[01:52:29] But this movie did put it this way. The first one got an Oscar nomination. Well, and this one gets a Golden Globe nomination for best actress. Whoa, is it? Oh, is it Bridget Jones and the Edge of Reason? There we go. Right.
[01:52:49] My friend Bridget Jones, Colin, the end of reason. The big lawyer, the edge lawyer, big dilemma that is the headline that it is weird how much that movie just fucking farted at the US box office considering how big the first one was.
[01:53:08] People were like, nah, we only needed one of those. But in Britain and overseas, like it killed. I'm sorry. I'm just like I'm running through this because I was just trying to remember if I had this correct. Renee Zolliger essentially disappears 2010, right?
[01:53:25] Then there's like photos that come out with the plastic surgery and everyone freaks out and she kind of hides again. Then a couple years later, she comes out with Bridget Jones in the edge of reason or Bridget Jones's baby. And it was like here's her return.
[01:53:40] It's her first movie in six years. Yes. People kind of shrug. Fully doesn't exist. Patrick Dempsey is like a major part of it. Because she granted want to be in it. Right. Right. But yeah, it's like she disappears for six years, comes back
[01:53:56] with her like most beloved character, the world shrugs. And then she just casually wins an Oscar again. Right. Like I'm not saying she would have won an Oscar for Bridget Jones three, but it is weird that people were clearly ready for her to return.
[01:54:09] And then we're just like, no, not the one we like. Give us some dog shit biopic. Can you just fucking phone in some Genshin phone in it? But whatever, like can you be in the most phoned in biopic? She's fine. Oh, God, that movie stinks.
[01:54:24] I can't believe she has two Oscars, but whatever. She's in Jerry Mcmyer. She gets a free pass for life. That's the thing. It's like there is a universe in which I'm happy to give her two Academy
[01:54:32] Awards and neither of them would be for the performances she won for. Absolutely. She's given good performances and right. It's neither of her wins that that is a weird like cause like with Swank it's like, OK, she shouldn't have two Oscars maybe objectively. But those were both very.
[01:54:47] They're both. Yeah. You can see why those performances landed at that moment. You know, with with Sally Field, Norma Ray, that's one of the greatest movie performances. The other one you're like, well, that was stupid. Like they just fucked up whatever. It was a weird year.
[01:55:01] I can't believe that you guys are going to have to do a whole. I say this is the guy who wanted to do the Polar Express episode. I can't believe that you're going to have to do a whole Christmas Carol episode. Absolutely. We're going to do it.
[01:55:13] We're going to do it with bells on. Ring a dang, dang. Can you hear them? Can you hear? No, because, you know, I don't have. I don't believe in anything. You guys are cynical adults. Do not believe in Robert Zemeckis's whatever. Wait real quick.
[01:55:32] Yeah. When the bell falls down, we hear Santa's coming to town slow as hell. Right. Do you remember this in the movie? Shopped and screwed. OK, for years, I've been working on a slow Christmas album. And. And for our Christmas Carol episode, there will be a link
[01:55:56] to this album. I finally finished it. And you're going to drop the album. This is your official slow Christmas album. Y'all are I? So this is a preview. It's going to December is going to be a huge month guys. Santa has come to town.
[01:56:11] Ben has never mentioned never. Never mentioned this before. We're talking about is you taking existing songs and then just slowing them along the way down and that's it, right? Is it like conception? Where it's like. Like like that, like how slow is slow?
[01:56:29] How slow we talk it low, baby? Do you have a name? Can we officially reveal the name of this album or is it still untitled? I mean, I've just been going with like untitled slow Christmas album. But yeah, I'll try to come up with something cashier.
[01:56:46] I don't know. Untitled slow Christmas album is pretty perfect. I don't think we're going to get a better title than that. All right, well, there we go. That's really yes. And David, I wanted to second what you said.
[01:57:02] Ben has revealed so many of his deepest hopes and dreams to us over the years. So many of his greatest ambitions. This is the first we have ever heard of this years in the making of a slow Christmas album. Oh, boy, I wasn't ready to reveal it yet.
[01:57:20] So the time just felt right. Well, right. Joey, thank you for coming on the show. Thank you. Thank you for kicking off our December to remember Zemeckis podcast event. As we're going to get silly. Traps through these mocap movies and his holiday films.
[01:57:39] People should follow you on Twitter. I guess they can also now subscribe to my sub stack, which is about. So if you enjoyed me rambling about a brow about Michael Jeter and Grand Hotel, that is Joey Sims dot sub stack. Hell yeah.
[01:58:00] You got some of the best theater takes around Beowulf next week. Yeah, it's going to be good. Zemeckis is weirdly horny, weirdly violent, still somehow PG 13. Mocap adult 3D action film. I'm excited for that. And thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate review, subscribe.
[01:58:27] Thanks to Joey's roommate, Lane, Monk, for our theme song, Pat rounds and Joe Bowen for artwork and for good for social media, help them produce the show. Go to blankies dot red dot com for some real nerdy shit and patreon.com
[01:58:41] slash blank check or blank check special features. We're polishing off that alien franchise. Those commentaries and as always, on this podcast, there's just one rule. Never ever let it cool.