The Princess and the Frog with James III

[00:00:00] Blank Check with Griffin and David Blank Check with Griffin and David Don't know what all you need to know is that the name of the show is Blank Check Grab some body, come on down, bring your paintbrush with paint in the town

[00:00:26] There's some sweetness going round, dreams do come true in podcast leans So I wanna, cause I think people might be confused, it was a heady opening What I did there, this movie is set in New Orleans Yeah, Nolans

[00:00:47] Right, right, right, now I'm pronouncing it in a very non-traditional way, the overly formal way New Orleans instead of Nolans because in order to execute the, and once again a very subtle sort of nuanced joke that I want to open the episode with

[00:01:05] I had to imply that there is a place called Podcast Leans Of course And that in fact, that place is where dreams do come true They sure do In podcast leans Here's a thing that really hit me hard watching this movie

[00:01:24] Cause I was digging back into like while I was watching it, I was going through all the like Wikipedia citations

[00:01:31] A thing I often do when we do this show is I'll start on the Wikipedia and then I'll start looking at the linked articles from the time the movie came out

[00:01:41] And then I'll use that as a rabbit hole to look into other things cause I'm always trying to remember like how were things received, how were they anticipated What was the discourse like at the time rather than what's it like now

[00:01:53] And there was so much hand-wringing obviously about the representation in this movie and Disney would announce something and then they'd get blowback and then they'd go Nevermind, we're changing it, we're changing it

[00:02:02] There was all this stuff but they were trying so hard to be like this is important We understand the importance of it It's our first black princess It's an African American movie It's set in New Orleans We're being respectful of the culture

[00:02:15] Muscle and Clements going like trust me we take this seriously We went on vacation there for 10 days We did our work We took it very seriously They did their classic two week vacation We went to Africa, we went to China, we went to New Orleans

[00:02:30] Don't worry guys, we soaked it in Their defense every time is trust me we didn't take this lightly We spent 10 to 14 days there It never surpasses two weeks It's always 10 at the minimum 14 at the most But for all of that, for all of that

[00:02:48] You look at this movie and they're like we really wanted to be respectful to the culture of New Orleans And that's why we made sure to throw that authenticity into the movie By putting in the voice cast the three most important New Orleans residents

[00:03:02] Dr. John Emerilagasi and John Goodman Hmm, what's the end? There's a hmm There's some connective tissue of the three New Orleans residents you choose to put in the film as voice actors What is it? There's some Dr. John Goodman Emerilagasi

[00:03:21] Well no, I think that pretty much covers the spectrum I did not think about it that way but it's a fair point It hit me with the Emerilagasi Because I would not have recognized the voice He plays an alligator very briefly

[00:03:36] I was just like that's weird that Emeril is a voice actor in this because he's not an actor Famously, conclusively as one season of Emeril on NBC taught us Yeah, I was about to say the man put his time in on network TV Can't forget about that

[00:03:53] He tried and we all collectively said no thank you That's alright Emerilagasi, thank you but no thank you I mean you could say they went bam to this movie Right, they went bam despite the fact that the public had said to Emeril maybe take it down a notch

[00:04:12] But that's the one where I was like why is Emeril in this? Oh because they wanted real New Orleans authenticity and it stopped that to white guys named John and a chef You're right, I can't deny anything you just said

[00:04:26] You asked me right before we start recording do I like this movie And I said let's say it for when we start recording So hello everybody this is Blank Check with Griffin and David I'm Griffin I'm David It's a podcast about filmography

[00:04:39] Directors who have massive success early on in their career And are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want Sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce in podcast leans And this is a mini series on the films of Musker and Clements

[00:04:57] Charting the Disney Brassons The Rise The Fall The Rise The Fall This is a sort of an aborted rise before the real rise takes post fall post rise It's a mild rise but yeah it's a mild rise it's a half rise

[00:05:14] It's called The Puddle Murkast we are talking about their final 2D animated film Princess and the Frog which I do not really like Interesting, okay, all right I saw it in theaters I was pretty non-plused with it I wouldn't say I dislike it but I

[00:05:34] There are elements I find mildly charming and there are a lot of things I find frustrating in it And it ends up just sort of evening out to a net neutral Hmm, because I think my take and I don't know what our guest thinks either to be honest

[00:05:48] Is that this film is excellent But you know while I acknowledge some of the The broader almost outside of the film issues with the film if that makes sense Like as a cultural statement I don't know if this film is that is totally successful

[00:06:07] But I like this movie a lot I've watched it many times Many times, wow, okay That's hard, it's hard I think the movie is I feel like the movie is good but then when you think about it it's bad

[00:06:23] Yes, when I think about like oh is this what they should have done I'm like probably not, no But when I'm like I kind of want to watch my little frog buddies flirt And then like you know I really like the villain and oh you know

[00:06:39] There's lots of things about this movie I enjoy I've seen it several times But right was the entire enterprise well mounted I don't know Our guest today has done an entire podcast episode on this movie before

[00:06:53] On his own podcast Black Man Can Jump in Hollywood which I listened to at the time And then realized right before we started recording I should have re-listened to An insistent of this so as to not make you repeat every point

[00:07:05] Because we want to try to establish new things but do you not even remember what you said that I have no idea what I said I don't know if I liked it then or what You had Caroline Martin on I remember listening to the episode at the time

[00:07:20] But I certainly relate to that very hard I now have the experience I don't know if you've had this increase our guest today Our guest today from the Black Man Can Jump in Hollywood podcast Astronomy club all that black mirror James the third is back on the show

[00:07:37] So glad to be back this is So glad to have you back Had to talk about this movie in particular will be fun I gave you I give you a pretty long list and you said princess and the frogs the one

[00:07:48] I'd want to do and I'd remember that you didn't episode on it but I didn't remember where you really came down on it I was gonna say I don't know if you have this James and in general it's just like

[00:07:58] Our podcast started about the same time I think you guys have been doing your show for about five or six years the same with us It's just at this point you've you put a lot of thoughts down on microphone it's hard to keep track of them

[00:08:11] And also so many episodes are like this is my very very strongly formed opinion on this movie on the day I recorded it You know those opinions can like shift over time or at least intense intensity they can shift

[00:08:26] But also you just make so many bits and you like share so many opinions and you share so many anecdotes and all this sort of stuff

[00:08:33] And then now at the point where almost like a year into doing these things like remotely in this isolated way and this like nebulous time where everything soup I just no longer remember anything I've said on the show

[00:08:45] I don't know what I've talked about I don't know how I I don't know how I feel about any movie anymore like I don't know

[00:08:52] This is why I would listen to the podcast that we put out to just remind myself like oh okay I say you know helps me not repeat myself later

[00:09:00] But now there's the dual problem of one I'm so behind on my podcast listening because of the pandemic I don't commute and so I don't listen to as many podcasts

[00:09:08] So I'm behind on our podcast and two some of these episodes are five years old I don't fucking remember what I said about vanilla sky I don't know let's do another vanilla sky episode that movie's kind of growing on me

[00:09:21] I'm in the exact same position where it's like it's not even like a self-satisfied like oh I want to listen back to this podcast I did

[00:09:27] But it was like let's listen back like in a like da farra like let me have a slice after I close up the pizza shop every night to make sure I still know how to make pizza You know? I still got it

[00:09:39] Right yeah okay yeah that's alright that was pretty good Yeah yeah it's still good I don't need to retire yet But A yes I'm so behind on podcast B we record so much because we like try to stay ahead

[00:09:55] So like the idea of throwing on three hours of myself talking after it's like all I do is listen to myself fucking talk I sit alone in silence an apartment and I record five episodes a week I never want to hear myself on microphone ever again

[00:10:10] It's not five it's three But yeah it's yeah I thought you know it had been long enough since you wanted to do this movie and it had been long enough since you had done on Blackwicked

[00:10:20] Can't jump in Hollywood I was curious to hear your thoughts on it especially within this context

[00:10:25] I mean I just I definitely on this rewatch feel like some of the stuff was similar I was like oh yeah I remember loving how much it just felt like a 2D Disney animated movie

[00:10:41] The way it looks and the way they talk and the way like just everything it just had that energy and they really especially the beginning of the movie they're like hey

[00:10:51] Remember what this feels like you know and they caress you with it and it feels good and you're like yeah I love yeah oh my nostalgia for this is very prevalent

[00:11:01] It's been I mean if you're counting Tarzan that's a musical right they sing in that right I barely remember it But it's been ten years it's a long awaited thing

[00:11:11] Right that's the weird thing it's been like ten years since there was like a classical sort of like Disney fable musical in 2D But it's only been five years since they've released a 2D film

[00:11:26] I mean you have like Tarzan's the last of like that era and then you have Atlantis, Treasure Planet, Lilo and Stitch, Brother Bear Home on the Range which are all sort of weird Emperors New Groove which are all sort of weird new experiments and expanding

[00:11:39] That end up sort of like falling off a cliff at the end of that run And the timeline is so bizarre I was re-familiarizing myself with it It's like they stop production on everything that wasn't too far along after Treasure Planet bombs

[00:11:54] They go like Brother Bear and Home on the Range you get to finish You're the last two through the door everything else just stop it in its place right Rapunzel was supposed to happen, the Ice Princess was supposed to have or the Snow Queen or whatever

[00:12:08] Which then becomes frozen like they just put the brakes on everything We're streamed front-line chicken little and meet the Robinsons in Bolt right we're going CGI The old Disney movie style is done

[00:12:22] That happens in 2004 after Home on the Range they officially announced like we're closing down the studios Musker and Clements are let go all the old guard guys are let go Then in 2005 Disney buys Pixar places lots of hug and lasseter in charge of animation

[00:12:40] And he immediately is like we're reopening Andron we're hiring everyone back It was a span of a year and then this is announced in 2006 It was a logical decision to like the decision I mean the saddest period in Disney history is that chicken little meet the Robinsons bolt

[00:13:00] You know that's just that's not no one was happy with that I know you sort of stick up for meet the Robinsons I kind of like meet the Robinsons yeah I remember when I first saw chicken little I like laughed and thought it was really fun

[00:13:15] And then I went back and watched it and I was like oh like it was like oh it's not it's not what I remember it to be

[00:13:22] It's so bizarre that movie it's it's it's such a weird period I mean I do think like part of the issue is yes I have this same like it activates the same sort of like buttons for me just watching a movie be this unabashedly a Disney princess musical

[00:13:40] After it felt like they were taking so many half measures and being so embarrassed of that for so long But there's also a degree in which it feels like it is doing all of that stuff a little bit too self-consciously for me

[00:13:52] Like it's like a cover band of itself where the movie keeps on announcing like you love this you miss this right And then the next year after this is tangled which I think is the best of the modern Disney animated movies

[00:14:06] The best of the last like 15 years and tangled is obviously CGI but I think does a better job of like representing the The energy of those movies and also putting something more modern into it and then obviously after that frozen happens

[00:14:21] And just the chance of them ever making a movie this classical again kind of goes out the window it feels like Sure Once once they nail the frozen tangled balance where it's like oh you're doing a Disney princess musical but it's modern and it's CGI

[00:14:37] The CGI is styled to look more like Disney drawings. It's not realistic and you have the weird clothing shapes and whatever Then I just feel like that's that's the exact formula that they now want to work on

[00:14:51] I don't like that nonsense. I like I do like tangled I prefer this film to tangled though I prefer tangled And I don't like how tangled books which is part of the problem but I also don't like tangled is about Rapunzel

[00:15:07] I mean like that that's that's my big problem with tangled like it's just the fundamental problem Which is like I I can't with with you know girls in dresses in castles anymore as much as I like that

[00:15:18] You know there is a lot of fun stuff the tangled does I really liked tangled but but I avoided I avoided frozen for a long time like I like I didn't frozen to was coming out

[00:15:30] And I hadn't seen the first frozen but I but and but I had seen the that like Olaf movie that they put in front of Coco We all saw that but I hadn't seen frozen so I had no understanding of like why I should hate this

[00:15:47] Were you like oh this snowman guy he's fun and I was like this is fucking incredible I loved it. I thought it was hilarious Wow the only person but I but I get that it was like they were like let's tack this movie on to Coco

[00:16:03] Yeah, in case this in case this movie bombs and like people don't want it or people don't want to see a bunch of brown people Right for 90 minutes. Let's put but I but but me just being like alright this Disney baby

[00:16:14] Let's see what's let's see what's going on It's so funny that that was their calculation it was so clear that that was their exact calculation of like okay here We have like a Mexican Disney movie coming out after Trump was elected is this not gonna work

[00:16:29] Let's give them 25 minutes of frozen beforehand and people reacted so negatively they pulled the frozen short Yeah, like that's astonishing that the response was that vicious that they were like no more frozen on my screen please

[00:16:44] I remember it being 40 minutes long is that wrong like I remember it being just like interminably insanely long Maybe it was like it was really long 40 minutes if you're including the trailer pre-roll right like it's gonna take you

[00:16:57] I think it's 25 because it was supposed to be a TV special and it's also just you're seeing a lot of trailers And your brain is conditioned to oh the shorts that play before these movies are four minutes long

[00:17:08] Yeah, yeah not not a like has a full like several act story Multiple songs? This this has act breaks I left the theater because I knew I'd been warned like you know this thing is like so I left I went and got snacks

[00:17:27] I don't I probably walked around and made some conversation like I just like was like I have to stall as long as possible Because I actually want to enjoy Coco

[00:17:35] I saw Coco I think three times in theaters and the first time I caught the fucking Olaf thing and the second two times And I went to see it with people I was like good news

[00:17:44] You don't even have to show up to the theater until 20 minutes after the advertise showtime Right What times the movie at 450 I'll meet you at 550 Um but wait wait did this have an animated short in front of it Griff? I think it did

[00:17:59] Princess of the Frog it musta right like they usually did that I don't know I mean they start doing them more with the Disney because that's another lasseter thing

[00:18:06] Like oh the Disney animated films should also have shorts in front of them but I'm trying to think of what it would have been I'm not sure if there was one Yeah, there may not have been one. I'm not seeing any mention of one

[00:18:16] Um Griffin I'm assuming you said you said you saw this in theaters you were wellmed it sounds like I was wellmed Were you pumped for it? Were you like I'm so happy Disney's back to the princess 2D thing or were you kind of like

[00:18:29] Well let's see what this is Uh I mean a combination I think I did I was not very excited for the movie itself Like the materials I would see for the movie were not very exciting to me but I was very excited philosophically for them doing this Right

[00:18:45] Like I was excited for every single thing about this movie on paper and then every time I saw a trailer I was like this just doesn't feel totally right to me And I you know a lot of the Disney movies are often marketed on the most simplistic level

[00:19:01] We talked about this but like Frozen and Tangled it was largely because of the underperformance of this movie The movie still made 100 million domestic in like 250 worldwide but the bar for Disney is obviously so goddamn high That they viewed this as an underperformance

[00:19:16] Tangled was already like almost done Uh and then you know the the Snow Queen became frozen and they punted that over to CGI and rethought the whole thing But both of those movies were supposed to be called Rapunzel and the Snow Queen

[00:19:29] And then they were like no cannot have any princess shit in the title come up with like an action word right Put that in there and then make the trailers as much about like the funny animal sidekicks as possible

[00:19:42] Like they were actively trying to hide the fact that they were musicals and that they were princess movies Exactly like Tangled you had the poster Where you got a Flynn with the like cast iron pan and that the horse has a sword like same with Frozen

[00:20:01] Obviously being Olaf heavy they tried to emphasize comedy over majesty in the in the advertising yeah like And then of course post-Frozen they're like back to majesty Disney is the distillation of magic like there were we have it again

[00:20:18] But now they can do it again like by the time you get to Moana which we'll talk about next week They're just like this is a Disney princess musical we're proud of it

[00:20:26] Here's our lead character she is the hero of the movie everyone enjoy and people are amped it's a big hit everyone loves it And we and we've brought in a major composer we're spending the money you know like it's everything it's not just like

[00:20:37] One or two you know because I feel like by the end of the Disney boom the Disney Renaissance I mean I guess they start to go for because Phil Collins they start to go for pop pop singers like you know Elton John

[00:20:52] I guess kind of breaks their brain so they're like right Phil Collins sting let's get in these guys which was a mistake But I guess I guess I get what they were doing with this this one's of course Randy Newman the great Randy Newman

[00:21:04] Yeah, but I mean that Randy Newman was one of my issues with this movie like and it sucks too because I love Randy Newman One of my favorite musical artists of all time both as a solo artist and his film work

[00:21:18] I have no problem with Randy Newman like you know you got a friend in me all right cool buddy that's great You do indeed have a friend in me Randy

[00:21:26] And the songs in this movie are fun and it's and you know they're fun and you like you go through the story and you But like I just want a real knowledge jazz musician to like do all of this music It's a strange decision

[00:21:44] It's it's a lot of what I struggle with on this movie is that it just feels like they're kind of one foot in one foot out about a lot of stuff

[00:21:53] And also overthinking a lot of the calculations right because this movie was pretty much just sold on two planes Look at the progress we're making culturally here is your first African-American princess and also we're getting back to our roots

[00:22:07] We're doing the thing that Disney's known for we're not embarrassed anymore But then yeah the Randy Newman element is so weird because it's like well But like do our people still cynical about those songs if we bring Menken back and make it super classical

[00:22:22] Is that too much Randy Newman does Pixar movies which are a little more modern and a little more edgy also He's from Louisiana so we can have him do the music but also this isn't really the person you should have writing these songs

[00:22:37] It's it's the two thousands thing of the the slightly lip-servicy I mean every not just Randy Newman But like you know you I'm sure you read it but the early like the character was called Maddie

[00:22:50] What was that you know she was a chambermaid like I feel it felt like they made these wait the movie was called Frog Princess Right it wasn't called the Princess and the frog right that that title was changed because people thought it was offensive to French people

[00:23:06] Well there are there are French speakers you know sort of I suppose it down in the bayou I don't know but yes No, it is funny that people were like hey you trying to come after the French is that is that what you're doing here

[00:23:18] It just speaks to the fact that every time they like stepped out on stage Titan like straighten their bow time when we are proud to announce people just booed them Right because it's like the next element is Randy Newman and people are like what

[00:23:32] I mean just the fact that they brought on Oprah Winfrey as a quote unquote technical consultant what like what does that mean like what was that phone call like I know Oprah Winfrey is a black woman from the south

[00:23:46] But it's like are they just like can we just like bounce this story off you see what you think like I like what that the weird Disney lip service of the year I mean and it's it's a story of so many of the movies we've covered

[00:23:59] Like yeah on this on this mini seer Aladdin is what I'm thinking of I guess they I guess the other ones were not muskier Clements you know you think a Mulan you think

[00:24:08] Right Pocahontas like where it's like oh you know sure one step forward you want to do something different you want to have a different kind of protagonist okay

[00:24:17] And then they're like anyway so like I don't know what the dragon should be called what mooshu maybe like like you know like there's just no further

[00:24:26] And of course the classic two week vacation to China or Africa or like what you know the Lion King is another example right you know where they're like yeah we did we got it we know what's going on this this movie is going to be highly culturally attuned

[00:24:40] But I even think like the the Randy Newman of it all is just like a his sensibility isn't totally right for a straight sort of more earnest Disney princess musical right like he obviously is

[00:24:56] His beloved for writing like the Pixar songs and stuff but the Pixar movies notably don't have characters singing those songs they're not story songs that's not really what he's good at and his one Broadway musical he did was his biggest calamity of his entire career

[00:25:08] He did a bizarre foust musical that people hated that I think is interesting but it's like this is not his strong suit is doing character story songs

[00:25:17] No I have to put my foot down Randy Newman is a great storyteller songwriter like he had just written a massive anthem about Louisiana Louisiana 1927 that was all about Katrina like that had like dominated the airwaves over that like and he's famous for his storytelling in a songwriting not in the Pixar movies but in his albums and his music

[00:25:40] Randy Newman I never problem story wise with like like I really liked like are you ready I really liked I really liked almost I'm almost there

[00:25:49] Almost there that's the one song I think so good I think it's a great number I love it visually I think it's a great song that's the one where it feels like they hit the bullseye for me

[00:25:58] I didn't know this was going to be a contentious at each other's throats episode but this score is great I love all the music I just this is what I'm saying it's like I like the music I like the movie

[00:26:10] I agree that I don't think they should have hired Randy Newman like in a broader like this is Disney making its first musical with a black protagonist sent you know what I mean like even though I enjoy the outcome

[00:26:22] Not knowing Newman's New Orleans roots like I just wanted a black composer like I just wanted a black composer and like Absolutely

[00:26:32] And I wanted there and and and I think I wanted watching it now is like it's it's hard because it's it's it's me I think it's me overthinking this and not me actually just trying to watch this kids Disney movie but like I wanted it

[00:26:47] I wanted everything to sort of feel edgier like I just mentioned really liking are you ready but I don't like how much are you ready sounds like it sounds like it's like trying to it's harkening back to to early Disney instead of being like this song about like voodoo creatures pulling you into hell or whatever

[00:27:08] Right it's technically called friends on the other side is the name of that song yes Yeah yeah

[00:27:15] Yeah I just think that they they can't totally decide which things they want to be step forwards and which things they want to be throwbacks to their history and I if I can if I can split a hair here and and I am allowed the opportunity to refine my point David I'm a huge Randy Newman fan

[00:27:33] I fucking know that Randy Newman is good at story songs but let's make it clear on his albums each song is one isolated story he writes songs from the perspective of a character and most of those songs are satirical

[00:27:47] What I'm talking about is Faust he does not do like concept albums Faust is one of his only works where he's building one solid narrative around the culmination of songs building to a story right that is not what he's asked to do

[00:28:02] The only other musical film I think he's written was cat's dunk dance where the songs are fun Right I'm not saying he can't do this but it is not what he does primarily

[00:28:13] I think he can do it as evidence by the Princess and the Frog which I think is pretty good How many how many Randy Newman tattoos do you have David? I fucking love Randy Newman I do I do like I love I love the guy

[00:28:27] I might be a bigger Randy Newman fan than you are I'm worried that this is coming off like I'm a Randy Newman hater when I'm a Randy Newman obsessive We've all established that we love Randy Newman We love Randy Newman

[00:28:40] One of the saddest things was when the New York Film Critic Circle gave him a special award I guess it was last year I guess his marriage story was the peg but you know for like whatever like a lifetime of film music

[00:28:53] You say it was for marriage story I'm pretty sure it was for I won't let you throw yourself away the greatest song ever written for a movie Toy Story 4 Forky's Ballad

[00:29:02] He had also done Toy Story 4 so we were very excited because Randy knew it's like okay then Randy Newman will come to the dinner And then like I mean Randy Newman is not a young man anymore and he you know he could not travel at whatever that month

[00:29:16] You know he was had there was something up so he couldn't come which was sad I would have liked to have seen Randy Newman it was still nice to award Randy Newman obviously Just this little thought about Randy Newman we belong together

[00:29:30] I'm gonna ask her for that one Oh and I loved Hold On there's one more that I really love It's like probably a couple of the race race songs were really fun

[00:29:39] Yeah the race songs are great this this movie is got a fucking firefly that wants to turn into a star It's got all kinds of cool shit going on

[00:29:48] No I just want to make this very clear because I feel like as you said this is already feeling like it's shaping up to be a contentious episode And it's not that I have like a bunch of really strong antitakes on this movie

[00:29:58] The problem is watching it just now I felt the same way which that I felt seeing it in theaters both times really wanting to love it Like as I said I was not super excited by the marketing materials but I loved that they were doing this

[00:30:11] And you know the Tangled and Frozen marketing campaigns I mentioned were after this But there was a history of Disney trying to misrepresent things in order to try to make them seem broader

[00:30:20] And I was like maybe I'm gonna sit down I'm gonna feel that classic Disney Renaissance magic And this time I went I haven't seen this movie in 11 years I've been watching Musker Clements for the last month or two

[00:30:29] I'm really in that headspace maybe I'm gonna rediscover it as a masterpiece And both times I just feel kind of bored by this movie I find this movie weirdly kind of unengaging

[00:30:40] There are things in it that I respect where I go like I like that craft this is cool There are things in it where I go like that conceptually feels off that seems a little like wrong headed

[00:30:50] But but it just levels out to me just being a little bit unengaged Here's my thing that I felt this time that I had not felt before

[00:31:03] And I have no idea if you guys will have felt the same thought but like this is the first time I watched this movie after having seen Soul

[00:31:11] And the fact that 11 years later Pixar finally had a movie with a black lead where the you know black lead is in the body of an animal For a lot of the movie which is a complaint people had about this movie and a complaint people had about Soul

[00:31:27] I don't know for whatever like it just was more lodged in my brain or even more lodged in my brain this time watching this movie

[00:31:34] I don't think it's like it's a thing that makes stories sense you know like I don't think it's like this absolutely bananas thing in either movie

[00:31:43] But you do kind you know it's hard not to sort of be like what is up with that like you know like right to sort of have the eyebrow raised moment Am I did this occur? I don't know

[00:31:55] James at the time we're recording this you guys at Black Man Can't Jump in Hollywood just released your Soul episode yesterday Which I have not listened to yet will have been out for a couple months by the time this episode comes out

[00:32:08] Don't want to make you realligate that but it is I was thinking about the exact same things while watching this movie In the light of Soul what's your basic stance on Soul

[00:32:19] I liked Soul but had a problem with the especially because the story what's actually happening story wise of him being in the body of the cat They could have just written something else like it could have just been something else

[00:32:35] It felt like they needed antics right like it felt like there was this sort of need for like okay we need something that you know kids will respond to and it'll be madcap and fun That seemed to be it didn't have the same thematic thrust

[00:32:47] But isn't it as much an issue if 22 ends up accidentally in the cat like isn't it still a problem Right the soul has the double swap right that's the that's the other issue with soul specifically right

[00:33:01] With both of these movies right watching both of them on Disney plus within a span of a month right and and comparing the two of them a lot my mind as all of us are right now

[00:33:12] By the nature of these podcast episodes we have to do in both cases I just hit like couldn't they just do this instead and for soul it's is there any reason soul didn't do all of me like didn't do the Steve Martin Lily Tomlin where they're both stuck in the one body and the complication is that he

[00:33:32] Wow that's that yeah I would have loved that

[00:33:36] Right that hit me and I was just like that does that accomplishes everything they're trying to do with having 22 walk a day in his shoes but still give Joe control of his body and his agency and all that sort of shit

[00:33:52] And the same thing with this movie where I'm just like it could have worked if she's still a human and the vein is a frog and she's trying to help him because he promises that he'll give her the money for the restaurant

[00:34:05] Like this movie could still pretty much work as well if not better just on a story level right like putting aside the larger sort of like perception issues of this movie

[00:34:16] But there's this weird thing where they had optioned this book called the frog princess that was like a YA early 2000s book that was the take on oh it's like a riff on the frog prince

[00:34:28] The girl kisses the frog but rather than the frog becoming a prince she turns into a frog too I think that was maybe optioned by Pixar originally I was trying to track the trail of this but it was its own independent project

[00:34:40] Then Lassiter comes on says we're going back to hand drawn and his sort of proposal was like maybe one out of every three movies will be hand drawn

[00:34:49] But we want to be in the hand drawn business we're still doing CGI but we want to be doing our classic princess musicals we want to be doing this

[00:34:56] And then at some point like all the things gel where they're like it's we're probably overdue to do a black princess movie We want to do a hand drawn musical the options exist within the Disney Pixar family for this book

[00:35:11] And the princess and the frog or the frog prince or any of those variations of the stories are like one of the sort of classical fairy tales that haven't been touched by Disney yet

[00:35:21] So all those things get mushed together and the problem comes from as you said David it doesn't feel malicious or strategic but it's like

[00:35:30] Okay so you bought the rights to this book that's kind of a clever twist of oh no what if she turns into a frog as well

[00:35:35] And then you decide representation matters we want to make a movie in New Orleans about southern cooking and jazz music and have an African American lead character for the first time Let's combine the two and have her be a frog for 90% of the running time

[00:35:50] And no one said that it would be that no one had an issue even when they asked Oprah to be a consultant Wait do you have an issue with the full like two thirds of this movie where we don't see the black woman

[00:36:06] Do you think Oprah was like wait do you think she should be a frog for that long and they were like Oprah look we realize this but it's too late

[00:36:14] Like you know like we're halfway through drawing this thing and we can't turn that boat around we're just trying to fix things on the side

[00:36:21] That's honestly what it feels I mean there's that story Dan Harmon tells about being brought in to do rewrites on Kung Fu Panda and they show him the entire movie on like storyboards Right and they're like we can't change it

[00:36:33] You can only change 30% of it and he said what did that mean and you said you can change 30% of the storyboard cards entirely You could take 30% of them down replace them with something new or you could modify 30% of what is in each storyboard singular

[00:36:50] Just stuff on the sideline isn't that wait isn't that Patton also now I can't remember I think both of them have done bits about this Okay it's possibly

[00:36:57] That kills me to even think about and we on for they did something similarly with soul like the movie was almost done before they brought in Kim Powers who co-wrote and co-directed it

[00:37:08] And it's like it's still great that they do stuff like this like it's like yes get people please get people involved that can provide a different perspective like please do that

[00:37:20] But like now you know can you just get a little bit earlier can you just can you bring it at the top

[00:37:25] Maybe there are the people who should be formulating these movies in the first place rather than the people you bring in as like a council at the end

[00:37:33] This is the enemy but right but like right what's happening here instead is Lester is like I want to take you guys took these movies off life support

[00:37:41] I'm trying to just bring them back in any way Clements and Musker obviously you know the old legends who you know started the Renaissance like let's bring them in

[00:37:51] And then you have Rob Edwards who worked with them on Treasure Planet on their last movie co-writing with them so you know

[00:37:58] But yes I mean every world in cinema seems so cloistered animation seems so cloistered right like the fact that Pixar just now is putting out shorts like Bow Right where it's like oh look like a person of color worked on this one you know like where you're like

[00:38:15] They did their first queer short ever on Disney Plus like they're starting to write and now the Bow director is making her own movie

[00:38:22] But yes it's taken so fucking long James I'm curious because it sounds like you've read a lot of the same like crafting of soul interviews and pieces

[00:38:31] Because I like after watching it was like I really want to try to figure out the gestation of this movie how this came to this shape

[00:38:38] And I just keep on sort of digging into to try to figure out some of the story decisions because soul is a movie and Moana is like this for me too

[00:38:45] Where I'm like I love this I find this very watchable if I engage with it I find a lot of things problematic in it But the movie as a piece I find very functional and effective and then I have these large kind of issues with them

[00:38:57] This movie for me I it does not grab me as much to distract me from the issues that I find but I found some Kent Powers interview recently

[00:39:07] Where he directly said and I think part of like the weird soup of soul is that it's a doctor created thing obviously he's the one bringing it to life

[00:39:18] It originally was supposed to be the Joe Gardner character was supposed to be an animator and then he was an actor They landed on music late then it became jazz because it felt like oh that's the form that's maybe the easiest to represent

[00:39:30] Like this sort of like spiritual ether of what we're trying to do this sort of jazzing that the whole movie ends up being about

[00:39:39] And and then Kemp is brought on after they've realized oh this character should be black if the movie's about a jazz musician in New York City They came to that last they had jazz musician before they were like oh should he be a black guy

[00:39:54] Right so that's the chain of things they were like actors too self-involved animation is too insular because that's our experience He should be an artist at a certain point he was a scientist like they were like but it's better if it's art because

[00:40:06] It's just like your life's passion I guess right right so it should be a jazz musician is Dr. John still alive

[00:40:12] That was the thing right so then the last step is I guess this guy shouldn't be white then they bring Kemp powers on but that also coincides with Lassiter being outstead

[00:40:22] And Pete doctor being placed in charge of Pixar and so I think Kemp powers has a lot more authorship over that movie Than a lot of co-directors or co-writers brought on late in these films because I think yeah

[00:40:33] Pete doctor started having a full-time job and it feels like Kemp powers maybe kind of was running quarterback on the last year of that movie But I read an interview with him where he was addressing the complaint of people being like why is fucking spies in disguise

[00:40:46] He's a pigeon the whole time why is Princess and the Frog a frog the whole time why is this I got spies in disguise fully forgot Right right like why are there three of these right and he said like well

[00:40:57] You have to understand it all kind of happened organically all this story development was done before I came on board This and that piecemeal when I came on board

[00:41:05] I immediately sort of like pulled the the fire alarm saying like this we have to be very careful about what we're doing here

[00:41:12] The optics of not having him in his own body aren't great and he was the one who is like I want him to be in the cat's body That was a Kemp thing so that way he could be around the whole movie

[00:41:24] This thing that he revealed in this interview was 22 was supposed to be the lead of the movie until like a year ago The entire film was designed from 22's perspective

[00:41:35] Right that's like a crazy a crazy thing it feels like the movie was designed to open in the great beyond Focus on 22 and you don't even really deal with Joe until she ends up in that body Yeah, yeah

[00:41:50] So but that's interesting though to even thinking about even thinking about like then it's like It becomes even more confusing if like the movie was originally supposed to be about 22 then like then like why folk I have so many more questions I agree there's a lot of questions

[00:42:08] Like why focus so much on Joe like what like like why not why not just start what because one of my issues with with soul was like

[00:42:16] I would have liked to have been in the land of the dead more or in the great before and like spent more time with that Like I feel like Pixar does has so much fun with with their new worlds and stuff

[00:42:27] But they were kind of like they kind of did the like bullet points of like this is the land This is the great before all right we out we back on

[00:42:35] Which I agree with a hundred percent and that only makes sense when you realize that's what the movie was supposed to be And then Ken Powers came in is like you're playing with some volatile elements here You need to reconfigure what you have on the board

[00:42:49] You have not thought about the larger takeaway points being made by this movie I also think I don't know like doctor had literally made his feelings blobs movie

[00:43:01] It feels weird that he was like what if it's about souls and I'm like is that that different from feelings like how How are you putting all your credit this is going to take you years to make like it feels too close like especially since

[00:43:15] You know there's thematic threads running through all the movies he's made but like monsters ink to up to inside out It's not like it's like oh you're just repeating yourself you know what I mean like so it's weird

[00:43:25] I don't know I I'd like to see soul again, but I thought it was you know I thought it was good yeah I like it a lot. I've seen it twice now, but I have these fundamental issues with it

[00:43:38] When when soul got announced I remember talking with you about David and it was like oh the first time they were announcing a couple Original movies it had been so many sequels in a row and then they announced like onward and soul

[00:43:49] Whatever it was three or four years ago that those movies are eventually coming and they're the animated original At the end of this sequel pipeline and you were like that's encouraging that they're announcing new movies right

[00:44:00] And I the biggest Pixar fan in the world remember saying to you like it feels a little bit like self parody for Pete doctor to make a movie about souls called soul

[00:44:10] It's the Steve Jobsiness, you know their whole Silicon Valley vibe where you know it's like he comes out he's in his half zip and he's like

[00:44:18] You know we just got to thinking like where does a soul come from and it was just like whoa whoa are you gonna show us the world of souls

[00:44:26] But that was like almost verbatim the exact log line when the film was announced a film that asked the question What is a soul? What is a soul? Where are personalities come from?

[00:44:36] And then Princess and the Frog is kind of like the exact opposite where it's just like a lot of elements right there are a lot of elements that you can understand them getting excited about

[00:44:46] And going like let's put them all together in this box without necessarily a larger overarching idea or vision and it's you know Muscular and clients are like the old masters at this point within the system Laster hires them back is like we're starting up hand drawn

[00:45:03] If someone's gonna make a hand drawn movie it should be these two guys but to your point it's like if this is the story you're landing on Then maybe it shouldn't be these two guys

[00:45:12] Where is I agree with that I agree and again I will watch soul again in a year or two maybe we do doctor one day it's four movies like he's one of the most prominent Pixar

[00:45:22] Oters right obviously but I agree with everything being said and I preferred onward which I guess it's a hot take I guess but I like onward a lot And I think onward is underrated

[00:45:38] I agree with that James this opens up a question I realized we should throw to you in general what is your sort of general relationship to Disney movies and especially this sort of Disney

[00:45:48] Renaissance era we're all roughly the same age I feel like we've we've had guests on for this many series that are all roughly our age and it is hard to like Extricate our generation from what these movies represented at different points in time

[00:46:02] Yeah I started not really I grew up with like the Disney VHS's so we had a ton we had like Peter Pan and Aladdin and You Need a Beast

[00:46:19] Like we had like all of those movies at home and then like I like Prince and the Frog I've said I did not see until like way later and got got into Pixar but there and the Disney Pixar regime

[00:46:35] But like there's a handful of like of like big ones that I just I haven't seen like like you'd be like you've seen this I'd be like no I'm sorry

[00:46:45] But like Finding Nemo and like Finding Nemo and like Monster's Z and Carl like my jam. Yeah, I friggin love them. Perfect movies. Yeah I also you were slightly more of a Nickelodeon kid were you not

[00:46:58] I know you're a big Nick kid. Yeah, yeah, I was a big big big Nickelodeon kid. I didn't have like Disney Channel so like I wasn't I didn't like Superb I into Disney I went to Disney World

[00:47:11] So and and land as a kid and loved both of those like I like still like wide-eyed kid and and experienced both of those places and love that

[00:47:22] We were talking about this on some episode we recorded recently maybe it was our return to far episode but that I my family had Disney Channel in those early days

[00:47:33] I mean obviously wasn't the beginning but but before they became basic cable when they were still pay cable and it was seen as like a forbidden fruit thing

[00:47:41] And I remember being so excited my dad was like we have added the Disney Channel to the cable bill and I watched it all the time but they had so little Disney on the Disney Channel at that point in time

[00:47:51] The Disney Channel at that point was such a weird channel because they still were like we could make more money licensing these things out bigger channels that more people watch

[00:48:02] I my only memory of early Disney because I net we until it was like a part of most cable packages I never had it but like I remember like I feel like

[00:48:18] Oh, but even like goof troop was like not on Disney Channel that was like on like Fox and stuff right

[00:48:23] That was the thing like all those shows would be on like ABC CBS Fox and then they would rerun on Disney Channel or like the one that had gotten cancelled two years earlier was still in rotation on Disney Channel

[00:48:35] Like those early 90s cartoons would still play on Disney Channel but I think it's like 97 is when Disney Channel becomes part of a basic cable bundle and they start doing the original movies And Disney Channel becomes what people think of as Disney Channel

[00:48:51] Right a whole generation that I missed out on like he's like you know if there are people five years younger than me who are like oh my god my favorite Disney Channel original movie is like you know Sarah in Paris

[00:49:02] Wait that sounds like the Netflix show but you know what I mean like where it's just like you're just like wait what is that I've never heard of that and they're like it was on Disney Yeah my wife loves bring Yes yes exactly

[00:49:11] Right a great example great example right right like and I'm I'm a couple years younger than you guys I don't know if your wife and I are the same age but I think that's literally the difference of like Brink was like the second or third Disney Channel original movie

[00:49:26] Like I was still in at that point you know for the first couple of them but Disney Channel now represents something entirely different and at the time that we were growing up Nickelodeon had such a clear brand identity

[00:49:36] There was such a thing to get into and it's not just their programming but there was the whole sort of like philosophical thing of like fuck you parents get out of here I'm playing with boogers Yes the kids have taken over the programming

[00:49:49] Yes yes slime man come on I just watched a documentary about early Nickelodeon and that literally was there they were like everyone sat in a room and they were like yeah we want to say fuck you to the parents

[00:50:01] Right and I would say I would argue that Nickelodeon has lost that that edge now like they're not quite as like fuck you parents No no He used to be but that was a great that was a great time

[00:50:15] They used to be Antipa they used to be anti-parents But it did feel like it was like it was organized in that kind of way like every commercial on Nickelodeon was like while they're out of the room we must plan you can trust no adult

[00:50:29] Put shaving cream in their slippers tell them to go suck a lemon parents fucking suck Even just you remember how aggro the Nickelodeon magazine commercials were about how you just had to pester your parents to get you a Nickelodeon magazine subscription until they broke down psychologically

[00:50:53] It was like an advance interrogation techniques Right there was those commercials right where it's like yeah listen up here's the strategy here's how you like put your parents' mind in a box basically and then you shake it They're not the boss you're the boss you rule everything kid

[00:51:10] Your dad is a fucking bug you can own him listen to me I am your god I am Gack In the 70s it's like kids don't exist we have no idea what those are we don't make programming for them

[00:51:22] In the 80s it's like kids buy toys the programming should just be toys moving around and then the kids will want to buy the toys By the 90s they're like kids are basically have credit cards like we need to treat them as an entirely independent demographic

[00:51:36] And this is also it's a political movement now this is an ideological stance And as right in contrast to that Disney is just like it feels like movies made by parents who are like come on trust us I know we're parents but the movie's gonna be fun

[00:51:52] You know yeah right Disney was never gonna be cool it's never gonna be cool Disney is not cool if anything Disney is the coolest it is now

[00:52:01] In that weird creepy way where it's become like a lifestyle for people it's a little you know much to handle but yeah Disney will never be cool cool

[00:52:10] It's not no they also this is the Disney Channel shift I think that really takes hold in the early 2000s where they start like engaging with teen sexuality

[00:52:21] They start being like we're gonna make things about like kids dating each other and crushes and singing to each other and we're gonna create like teen idols you know Which was a thing they had sort of not done since the Mickey Mouse Club

[00:52:35] Lizzie McGuire sort of she's she's the dawn of a new era for Disney yeah yeah yeah cause she's right she's like She's like a teenager she's a young teenager but still right it's whereas like in the 90s if you wanted that you had to be on Nickelodeon

[00:52:50] You had to be watching Clarissa and you know all that stuff But I mean to the point of what you were saying earlier James it is funny that like I mean watching it now I get it because now we've gone longer without a movie like this

[00:53:04] Like now it's actually been 11 years since they've taken a stab at making this kind of film I think the only other major hand-drawn movie they did after this was the Winnie the Pooh movie which quietly slaps is so fucking good

[00:53:17] Yeah I didn't see it but I remember being like every movie that I feel like when this movie came out and when Prince of the Fargo came out it was like We haven't done this Yeah this is gonna get you right in the feels of your memory like

[00:53:36] And I didn't see it because of the fanfare like it was so like yeah Winnie the Pooh's back guys and I was like Yeah I also have not seen it

[00:53:47] It's so good but it also felt like their whole marketing campaign was like you were saying like guys this movie is so short and inconsequential It's the kind of thing that Disney used to make You don't even need to come Don't come

[00:54:02] It's so charming that film but it also is like designed to be a non-event it's 62 minutes it's just got three loosely connected episodes Like it's just good it's funny it's got good gags and shit but yeah it was like designed to be a minor film

[00:54:18] Whereas this movie was all about like this is important we need this as a culture we have to bring this back

[00:54:24] And it does like get to you it is weird I mean the movie starts and and like what you were saying at the beginning of the episode James You watch it you're like fuck I didn't realize I missed this

[00:54:34] Yeah I like there's something about the diction like the diction of the voice actors and you're just like that sounds I don't hear that sound in anything else like I hear it in this

[00:54:48] The way that they move like the way that she cuts the ribbon in the beginning is like such a Disney I'm not looking at the ribbon but I'm cutting it like

[00:54:59] It's opposing yeah everything about yeah everything about it just is like trying to be like and it feels like this movie in particular is like We should have had a black princess earlier like so we're gonna make it feel as like this was actually just in the archive

[00:55:17] This whole time like that's the thing that kind of rubs me the wrong way about it is this feeling of like we know and we also think we should have done it earlier Like that the movie is saying honestly I agree with you Yeah

[00:55:32] When they cut to when they cut to the southern bell as a kid yes when we first see her like fully dolled up and like all excited And they're like the stories about her you know like they're like wasn't this dumb that we did this for so long

[00:55:46] Look see we're making fun of it now that's the character that feels so Disney to me like whatever it is like the third shot of the entire movie

[00:55:55] I mean you see the like cityscape or whatever and then when they go inside to them hearing the story and it's Tiana and the buffoo girl or whatever her name is both like leaning forward on their hands like wrapped attention Her name is Lottie What's her last name?

[00:56:12] It's a La Boof isn't it? Yes Big Daddy La Boof is her daddy But just the way they animate these two little girls in princess dresses leaning forward listening to a fairy tale I was like this is just the most Disney animation shit of all time Absolutely

[00:56:29] In a way that like hits me I'm like yeah I'm ready for that I mean Griffin I've been looking at the best animated feature nominees posts you know of this last decade and for like how many American 2D films have even been made like period not Disney anywhere

[00:56:48] Is the only one I can see is Klaus Klaus Right I mean I could tell you some that haven't been nominated but they're mostly Like what? Like seriously like genuinely Things like you know the two SpongeBob movies I mean they're almost entirely TV show adaptations

[00:57:06] TV right right right Like the My Little Pony movie it's like shit like that right it's just TV continuations in terms of original I don't think there really any Certainly going theatrical because like Klaus I love but went to Netflix

[00:57:21] It did but it was a lea- you know that's at least a feature right but like you know you see in these ten last ten years

[00:57:27] There's like stuff like The Illusionist you know like European stuff there's obviously Miyazaki the Jeep Lee movies like there's things like you know it's not like it's a dead dead dead medium

[00:57:38] But it's just not coming from America right you know and there's the great cartoon saloon stuff right you know the song of the sea yeah all that stuff Wolf Walkers this year yeah

[00:57:49] It always feels like you expect that every year it's going to be like two to three CGI movies maybe one stop motion film and then one film that has to function as both the representative for overseas animation and for hand drawn Right right exactly

[00:58:05] And otherwise if a studio is making a big theatrically released 2D film in the States it's almost always because that's the style of the TV show that it's based on

[00:58:14] Just a bit of a bummer just in general it's and then this is kind of the last one like and maybe it's the last one forever although I do feel like with Hollywood everything new oldest new again like you know

[00:58:26] I'm sure someone will come along and be like well don't we miss that like let's do you know like that surely that will happen again at some point right And it'll hit kids kids will be like I've never seen anything like this

[00:58:39] Yeah right right it's big it's on the big

[00:58:43] It feels like that sort of maybe what Netflix is trying to do I mean claws they did not develop they acquired while it was in development but it was not something birthed by them or at least it wasn't their genesis

[00:58:58] But that movie I think is really good and and uses CGI to augment the 2D in a really interesting smart way that gives it its own unique look but it is fundamentally a 2D film

[00:59:12] That movie is like English Spanish right it was directed by a Spanish guy so it's even that movie is not entirely American either

[00:59:19] But then they did that one this year or last year over the moon that Glen Keane directed who's like legendary Disney animator that's a Chinese fable that was co-produced by them in Pearl Studios which used to be DreamWorks China

[00:59:35] But then DreamWorks sold it off into its own company and that was sort of created by Netflix in house I mean they developed that from the beginning and Glen Keane was a big hire they took away from Disney to say you should be helping run our animation department

[00:59:49] And it feels like they've been making a lot of announcements they've been making a lot of big hires there's a lot of things they haven't announced in terms of specific projects but it feels to me like Netflix strategically is maybe trying to exploit that gap that hole in the culture yeah

[01:00:04] It just in general also that there's an animation you can make more animation it's very popular in general like yeah 3D 2D whatever right but as we sort of said for context we should get into the movie itself obviously but right you know Lassiter brings them in

[01:00:20] Apparently New Orleans is his favorite city did you know this this is part of the I didn't but it's frustrating Leon Brand He loves to party

[01:00:31] Right New Orleans is his favorite city in the same way that Hawaiian is his favorite shirt you know it's like I get it I understand what you like about this city John

[01:00:39] Oprah Winfrey of course hired as a technical consultant as you said based on both the frog princess Clot the prog prince story but also this like YA book from the early 2000s that I think your right Pixar have been working on something

[01:00:59] But they don't even I mean I they bought the rights from her she got paid I don't even think there's any sort of proper story credit for the movie it's like she got paid a lot of money for them to use nothing other than the hook of

[01:01:12] The girl becomes a frog too Yeah, I don't know you know Wikipedia lists it but yeah I don't I don't remember seeing it like in the credits or anything like that now

[01:01:20] And it's got a Nicononi Rose that she's she had just done dream girls. She's obviously like a big Broadway figure

[01:01:30] This is actually a good point James you were saying how different the voice acting is in this movie this is them consciously sort of like running back the dial to what Disney was doing in the 90s of mostly cast Broadway actors

[01:01:45] Right not not big celebs. Yeah, I mean you know Right cast Broadway actors cast veteran voice actors and maybe a couple of character actors with interesting voices right but it's like your leads are pretty much Broadway actors

[01:02:00] Then you have like Jim Cummings and Kevin Michael Richardson who are just animation vets playing the key supporting parts and then it's like oh you'll sprinkle in like Keith David and John Goodman Right and like Oprah plays that is the mom

[01:02:13] Yeah right Keith David's voice legend in his own right of course he's

[01:02:20] I'd say with Goodman I mean right a lot of the people in this movie who are also live action actors are either primarily Broadway performers or have done so much animation that it qualifies as an entire second career for them Absolutely absolutely

[01:02:34] Yeah, I didn't even hate like Terrence Howard being like you know all smooth and whatever it was like yeah cool her dad's super smooth this is fine

[01:02:44] It's also good casting like he's got a fucking good voice he's only gonna be in the movie for five minutes like make him stick out in our minds Jennifer Lewis obviously who is another Broadway legend you know been in everything And is giving a performance

[01:02:59] Oh yeah I enjoy it Oh come on

[01:03:03] Yeah I looked at I looked up the cast before I started watching the movie I started watching the movie and then when mama Odie came on screen I went who is playing this even though I had just looked up I went this can't be Jennifer Lewis

[01:03:19] So the plot of the movie she's not really a princess much like many a modern Disney princess much like Mulan like all these characters that they you know dub princesses

[01:03:30] Yeah I guess it's those two are the most egregious they have you know they're not princesses they're regular people Yes

[01:03:40] But Tiana is a she's a waitress she lives in New Orleans her best friend is a local rich girl and she wants to own a business as her dad wanted to do and he's dead that's the that's where we're starting Griffin

[01:03:54] Yeah I mean I like her a lot as a character I'm most engaged in this movie for the first whatever it is 1520 minutes When she's like doing the waitressing she's like juggling all the dishes around and all that

[01:04:08] Yeah and it is like you talk about this movie trying to get back to like oh the way the Disney movies used to feel I was thinking while watching this it's like you know the princess movies the musicals the fairy tales they are usually you know period

[01:04:24] pieces set in a very specific culture or a fictionalized version of a culture working off a tale that we've all heard a thousand times putting some specific genre into it right the contemporary Disney animated films and I know this movie is set in the early 1900s but in the span of Disney

[01:04:40] In the span of Disney films I think anything that's in the 20th century counts as contemporary Certainly yes

[01:04:47] The contemporary Disney animated movies are almost all the animal movies right like the ones that are more modern are Lady and the Tramp and 101 Dalmatians and rescuers those are the ones that take place in like a modern civilization and they're talking animals who see the world differently because they're not really in the world of men

[01:05:05] And this movie is weirdly it's like it's bizarre you're like oh this is odd to hear a Randy Newman score which feels more modern to see Tiana existing in like a modern city to be like trying to build up money to buy a business and not be like concerned with the decrees of the king and shit

[01:05:21] And you're like this feels like something new this is them taking a step forward and then it just slips kind of into animal movie and I immediately there's just a deflation for me once they become like frogs on a river

[01:05:35] James what do you think part of it is I really like frogs frog is my favorite animal interesting to eat

[01:05:43] I do like to eat a frog I will say that yes I love frogs too I've never eaten frog but I love frogs as well I I I'm with Griffin in that it does deflate for me what the second she becomes a frog too like and I and I did I feel like I did this the first time I watched it which was I always check you know check the time to see like oh how long has it been and I was deceiving

[01:06:13] I was like I was so relieved this time because I got so wrapped up in in in her being like hurt what she was going through before she turns into a problem I was like Wow I don't remember I didn't remember it being this long and it's like not long it's just under it's less than 30 minutes before she turns into a frog it's like 2950 or something I think is the exact moment when she when she shifts into

[01:06:37] into a frog. And I don't know, it just feels like it's like what even is happening now that she's like it's now just all she wants to do is like not be a frog so that she can you

[01:06:48] know I don't know and we're going to see them fall in love over the course of an hour. Like yeah. Right once she's a frog the conflict becomes can I get back to the movie I was doing

[01:06:56] beforehand and the problem is as an audience you're like yeah I preferred that movie too. That's the thing I agree that the central metaphor of their frog hood is not really clear for him

[01:07:09] I guess it's a little more like he needs to be humbled. He's a you know jerky rich kid right like I get his part a little bit more but she's just kind of like I don't want

[01:07:20] to be a frog like let me get out of this right now. I enjoy journeying through the swamps and meeting fireflies and crocodiles and all that just fine like I don't mind the change in milieu but I don't like if you're

[01:07:37] thinking of the classic Disney transformation movies right like a little mermaid or even what else what else we got come on yeah there's like a few words. Embers are going to be the bees. Embers are going to be the bees.

[01:07:51] Right right right like you know there's a huge lesson that has to be learned I guess she what does she have to figure out that like. This is my single biggest problem with the movie these are the two biggest

[01:08:01] failings for me OK and they become pretty fatal flaws one I do not at any point by that there is a lesson that Tiana needs to learn and that she learns it. I don't think this film ever convinces me that she has a character flaw that needs

[01:08:17] to be resolved that is somehow happens through her experience being a frog. I think she's a pretty fucking good well adjusted person. I like her she's responsible. She's got good priorities and they should they shoot themselves in the foot too

[01:08:31] because like it could be that she could she could like not have such a strong reliance on the fairy tales and the and the magic and the mysticism of that like but like but in the beginning they're like you can't just wish on a

[01:08:45] star you have to have hard work and she immediately takes that in and is just like OK I don't believe in the mythology of these stories. I'm good. I'm going to make my own way and then she suddenly gets thrusted into one

[01:08:58] and it's like none of the magic none of the magic works still but like she has no reason to think that it was there's nothing there. And at that point it doesn't feel like her learning a lesson. It feels like this movie is just being cruel to her.

[01:09:11] You fucking you knocked these fairy tales out of her brain and told her to fucking grow up and care about the real world. In the second she got her shit together they're like never mind jinx you're in a fairy tale.

[01:09:22] But that yes that is that's the arc the arc is that she needs to not just worry about you know being this great success and fulfilling this dream that she's had with her father and her family.

[01:09:34] Like it's like no like you should make time for fun and for silliness and for kissing frogs and like living your life beyond your career. And it took being a frog to do that. Of course. That was the only way she was ever going to learn.

[01:09:47] Sol does a much better job of that exact same story idea. Oh the guy follows his passion to the sacrifice of everything else in his life. He needs to slow down. Yeah but no one kisses in soul there's no kissing there's no romance between cute little cartoon frog.

[01:10:01] That's why David likes this movie. David loves kissing. I like this movie because it has two little frogs that need to fall in love. They're a little frog guys. I like frogs. OK. And I like kissing and they figure it out.

[01:10:15] Can I throw out my second fatal flaw this movie? Yes. I don't buy that Tiana has a lesson she needs to learn that she learns it is A and B I don't buy that she ever falls in love with Navin. Oh no he's pretty cute though.

[01:10:28] Navin Prince Navin of Maldonia Griffin Maldonia. I agree because like she even as the movie is going on she like when when when she learns that she wants to marry him and she's like oh my she wants to marry her. He wants to marry her.

[01:10:46] Yeah. And she goes oh my god thank goodness. You're like what? When did that happen? When did the scene happen? You fall in love with him because I didn't see it. I didn't see it at all.

[01:10:55] And this is another staple of these types of movies right where you have like the guy who's either so brutish and rude like Shrek or Beast or the guy who's so vain and caught up in his own stuff

[01:11:08] and it's only through them being stuck together on an adventure together that she finally breaks through and sees the real him. Right. Same with Tangled 2. Stuff coming later. Yeah absolutely you know. Right it's all an act. You know it's a defensive thing.

[01:11:22] You find out who they really are. Zootopia. A later Disney film obviously. Yes. Although a movie that I appreciate for being aromantic but their buddy duo is very much based on that dynamic. Yes. None the less right like you know she's the charming rogue. She's the straight arrow.

[01:11:38] They're going to break each other's walls down yada yada yada. I agree with you James. I had that exact same moment when she goes oh thank god he does love me. I went where did the scene go. Yeah. Where she starts liking him.

[01:11:49] I guess one of those scenes was supposed to represent that but it just doesn't feel like they really sell that to me. Yeah and part of the problem is the frog faces aren't super expressive because I do feel like there's that moment when he's like I love

[01:12:06] how excited you are about your dream and we do we get two two looks from Tiana as a frog and one of them is like what do you love? And then the other one is and when he says might your dream

[01:12:20] but we know that he's like covering up. It does not read like it doesn't read that it's something more than that. And it's because I think the frog faces are just a little too fair down a little not as expressive as they could be.

[01:12:35] And you know I like the frog face. James I fully agree. We've gotten to the central conflict of this episode. We've identified it. This is a movie about kissing frogs and David is always going to be in the tank for that.

[01:12:49] You and I are less innately drawn to frogs. James and David is here's my here's my larger point. Here's my larger point. Yeah. Beyond this movie. Now Tangled has a romance. I think the romance is the least interesting part of Tangled. I think it works.

[01:13:03] It's not my favorite part but I think it works. It's fine. But I don't like Flynn Rider very much. I like him. I think he's good. It's the only Zachary Levi performance I like. Go on. That's crazy. No, you like Shazam now. You have to admit it.

[01:13:14] You you like it. Yeah. Come on. Shazam is pretty great. Oh, I love Shazam. I it is almost a testament to Shazam. I think he's doing the bare minimum to make that movie work and everything else in the movie is firing on all cylinders.

[01:13:29] But post Tangled and that Disney is now is just resistant to romance. Yeah, it's and I think it's partly born out of the fact that the Disney princess story arc is very regressive and the old, you know, narrative trope

[01:13:46] of like you need to find your prince charming and at the end you're going to get married is something they wanted to leave behind or or he needs to find you. You need to sit around and wait for him to find you. Yeah.

[01:13:57] You know, and like your reward is this right? Like I understand that they wanted to dispense with that. So even when they bring back the princess stories with frozen, they consciously avoid romance. You know, you got Anna and Kristoff mucking up a little bit, but like the whole

[01:14:12] point of frozen is it's about the sisters and their connection. And that's what saves the day at the end, right? And Zootopia, like you say, like it's got that like, you know, moonlighting sitcom energy, but it's not a romance. I'm a one doesn't have a romance.

[01:14:27] So pointedly a romantic. Yeah. The Ralph movies lack romance. Um, Frozen 2 finally lets Anna and Kristoff kiss. You know, thank God, but it doesn't look like Ryan the last dragon is going to have a romance. Like I don't object to this entirely.

[01:14:43] I just think they're like, give me a little, you know, once in a while. Come on. I miss it. It's been so long since we've had kissing in Disney movies. I mean, it's really cute that he makes it. He menses a dinner for her, you know?

[01:14:57] That's I loved that. I thought that was really cute. That's that's the closest they come to having like chemistry and frog form. I feel like in terms of setting that up, but I still think it's missing a beat. Yeah, because even in that scene, it's like, yeah, good.

[01:15:12] He tried to do a thing like it's not that she didn't need anything from him. No, no, which is which is the other reason I think the movie probably works better if she stays a human the whole time.

[01:15:24] Like somehow I think the story because the movie at the end tries to get back to this idea of like, well, my father wasn't didn't have everything he wanted, but he had everything he needed. Right? She has this realization that the love in the family is the thing

[01:15:36] that matters most of all. And her father was rich in love or whatever, which it does not seem to be that woven into the rest of the film. Right. But but also it's like, well, she's stuck with Naveen because they're both in this shitty situation together.

[01:15:54] Whereas if it had been a little more of a Zootopia thing where it's like, look, I don't like you, but you're telling me if I can figure out how to make you a human again, you'll give me the money for my restaurant.

[01:16:05] OK, we're uneasy allies, you know, versus they're just united because they're both fucked. Yeah. I think they can't have one of them be a frog and the other one not be a frog because then she'd be pulling in love with a frog as a human.

[01:16:20] And maybe Disney was just like, no, we can't do that. Yeah, but they did Beauty and the Beast. We can do it again. I was going to say, yes. Yeah. And also it's just once again, it's like Naveen gets turned to a frog

[01:16:33] because he goes to fucking facility who tricks him, but also because he's like fucking flighty and like looking for easy life hacks and shit. He's just reward. Yes. Right. Exactly. Tia has done nothing wrong. Well, that's fine.

[01:16:47] I think another reason I like this movie is that I am someone who often as Griffin can attest, encourages people to set things aside in the name of romance a little bit. Right? Like, come on, throw caution to the wind.

[01:17:01] Right? Like I'm a little bit like that. Right? Yeah. Kiss. You know, and just we were talking about the movie, but like as you said, right, Prince Naveen, the penniless, but handsome prince gets turned into a frog by the shadow man, Dr. Facilier, played by Keith David.

[01:17:16] OK, he runs into Tiana. She's dressed like a princess for a costume party. She kisses him, turns into a frog. Now they're both frogs. Now they got to go in the bayou and figure out their situation. And they meet, as we mentioned, Mama Odie, played by Jennifer Lewis,

[01:17:34] a 200 year old voodoo priestess who is essentially the movies like fairy godmother, right? She's the one they're going to her there. Like, can you help us out of this situation? She's the fairy godmother, but she's also like Yoda. She's a little Yoda.

[01:17:48] Sure. Right. And that she's small and old and silly. Right. Right. Yes. And dancing around and cooking things. And yes, that plays with snakes. She has a staff, right? Doesn't she when she first walks out? Yeah, she's hitting things with sticks. Yeah. And it's basically her.

[01:18:04] She is me in that these two people come to her door and they're like, we don't know what the fuck to do. We're hanging out all the time. It's you know, we're making each other crazy. We want to be rid of the situation.

[01:18:18] And she's like, yeah, well, you know, you know what you need to do, right? And they're like, yes, what we need to do is be rid of the situation and go back to doing the normal things that we were doing.

[01:18:27] And she's like, you don't get it at all. What you need to do is kiss. That's what you need to do. And they don't get that. They'll figure it out. It was really funny when when the song ended and they ask,

[01:18:39] like, do you know, did you get it? And she and she says like, oh, I have to raise the mic. Whatever the thing is, she says and then raised like, OK, we got to sing the song again. One, two, three.

[01:18:47] I that kind of joke gets me every time. Every time. Every time. Get the trombones out. Let's do it again. Like, I love that. The one I was thinking of that's my favorite version of that joke is a Muppet Treasure Island where they do the cabin fever number

[01:19:01] and then it cuts down to like the barracks where the few pirates are being capped and they were like, what's going on there? And like, oh, you miss. It was a whole musical number. And then they start telling them like singing it again.

[01:19:12] Yes, that joke always fucking gets me when a musical number ends and the characters go like, that was a good musical number. I still want to be singing. So yeah, like in this is a movie where everyone is in some kind of debt,

[01:19:26] right? Like Navin, he has no money. His parents have kicked him out because he's such a scoundrel. Tiana is trying to raise money for her thing. Dr. Facilier literally owes like a magic debt to voodoo gods. That's why he's like, right? He's doing the thing he's doing.

[01:19:41] And like you just you just got a kiss and you're going to figure it out together, like strengthen numbers people. Like this is it's a beautiful thing. Princess and the Frog. I always knew you liked this movie more than I did.

[01:19:53] I didn't realize this movie was the purest distillation of your heart song. I just really like, yeah, that's like, I just love the message of that scene where she's like, don't you realize you're in a Disney movie? That's what you're doing right now.

[01:20:08] You got you should you guys should get together. And Tiana's like, if I take out a bridge loan, I heard Bank of America has good interest for you know what I mean? Like she's. But I also sure I just don't think look,

[01:20:20] I think they avoided it because it felt like, oh, like cliche wrote to do all the storybuilding blocks. And also they want to not shame her for being an independent strong minded business oriented woman. But I think that's part of the conundrum

[01:20:33] this movie gets itself into where it's like they want to be supportive of her dreams and her progress and the way she's built her life at the beginning. But then they're also trying to argue that there's something lacking from her life.

[01:20:44] You don't need a man, but you need a man girl. Like it's like because there's nothing there's no moment in the first 30 minutes where you get the cliched like she goes home and then she's just lonely eating a can of soup. You know, a dinner alone. Right.

[01:20:57] Exactly. Right. There's no scene of her rejecting a bunch of boys who like her a lot. You know, it's just like I know she seems pretty OK. She's pretty good. This is the whole problem. This is the needle they can't thread where they're like,

[01:21:09] well, what can we do a romance without it feeling didactic? And it feels like they're like, I guess not. Let's not do it. And I love Moana. We're going to talk about Moana. But I do think Moana slightly struggles from her being

[01:21:21] a little too together when the movie starts. Like that's sort of my problem with the 2010s Disney thing. These characters are two together. We'll get to it. I mean, I have my whole Moana take on that, but we'll get to it. Yes, yes. Fair enough.

[01:21:32] But I mean, like, you know, Frozen, you know, is the one that figures that out the best. I just my problem with Frozen is how it looks. I just don't love how it looks like. I know I don't mind the whole sort of narrative arc of Elsa.

[01:21:45] Like, I dig that by and large. The the Tangle, the Tangle, Frozen thing I like is I feel like they have figured out how to replicate the Disney art style in three dimensions. Even if you prefer it hand drawn, it's got the right shapes.

[01:22:00] It's got the right stylings. It's got the right lines. It's got the right movements. Tangled is better to me because I like the colors more. The in Frozen, there's so like if I drop them, they just shatter

[01:22:13] is how it always you know, they just pale and doll like. Well, that's a problem when they're in three dimensions, they all look like like really bespoke porcelain dolls. You become very aware of the physics of that head is huge and that waist is tiny, you know?

[01:22:30] And those wrists are like toothpicks. The thing I was going to say, I think Tangled is the one that solves that problem the best. I think I agree that the romance is not my favorite aspect of it,

[01:22:41] but I think it does it well enough at least goes through the basic motions. But I also think Tangled has the right balance of kind of she thinks she's an independent, strong minded woman who knows what to do. But also she's lived in a tower her entire life.

[01:22:56] She doesn't understand how anything works. So I feel like the movie lets her feel confident about herself while also creating comedy out of the fact that her misunderstanding of the world around her is sometimes that she thinks things are more dangerous

[01:23:08] than they are and sometimes she doesn't recognize the danger. And there's a lot of versatility in how she can behave. This movie just as you said backs itself into a corner where they don't want to shame anything about Tiana's life before she turns into a frog.

[01:23:21] And then once she's a frog, they have to argue suddenly that she was missing something earlier. It's the moment of problem that I just mentioned. It's the same thing where they're just like they build her up so much,

[01:23:30] which is good in that she's this pretty lovable and interesting and put together character for minute one. But then it's like, right, well, then what do we do with this? Like we're not going to do a movie about someone opening a business.

[01:23:43] Like, you know, like, right, you know, like you said, they back themselves into a corner. Remind me, we'll come back to that at the end of the episode. Let's let's talk about some of the supporting characters. Let's talk about Louis and Ray and Facilier because they're like

[01:23:56] they're the color in this movie. I love all of these characters so much. I love them so much. I watch their songs a lot, like on YouTube or whatever. Like they they they I go to their song.

[01:24:13] It is funny that Ray probably sings more in this movie than Tiana does. Yeah, I was there was a point where I don't think I realized this on my first watch. But there was a point this time where I was like, Ray singing again.

[01:24:25] Again, it's another Ray solo. He's got a good arc. We had a minute has passed and he's singing again. Ray's got two I want songs. Ben, Ben, Ben, Ben, wait, you haven't really weighed in Ben. What's your take on Princess and the Frog Toe?

[01:24:42] I just raised the character that feels very Ben friendly. Off mic, you've been hyping Ray up to Ben for the last two months. Saint Ben, you're going to like this guy. And I did. I loved Ray. Yeah, he's cool. I think Ray is like my kind of guy.

[01:24:59] He stuck out, but I just watched this movie for the first time. And it just was like what is happening. Sure, right? She's a frog in a lot of different ways, just like this is wild. A lot of stuff.

[01:25:16] Yeah, a lot of stuff, just like alligator that plays trumpet. But that talks to humans. My favorite character. Yeah, good character. All about him. He's a great character. It's so like and then but then the payoff. Imagine going to a restaurant

[01:25:34] and that alligator is playing trumpet while you're eating dinner. You'd be like, only in Norvins, baby. Yeah. Could you imagine? Oh my God. So like little things like that are really cool. But overall, I was very perplexed by it. I think Louis is so funny.

[01:25:55] I think why am I forgetting his name now? Eric Goldberg, who was the main animator on Jeannie, is the one who was the main animator on Louis. And he's got the like all the fun Disney comedy character energy. The physical voice performance.

[01:26:10] Yeah. And I just love his his fucking conflict of just all he wants to do is play jazz for humans. And he's a terrifying allocator. I have had this image stuck in my head for since the first time I saw this movie,

[01:26:25] which I think was a few years ago. But but when he played when he plays on the the boat and then jumps off and then all of the rifles come out of the that's so crazy. There's so many rifles. It's so funny.

[01:26:39] I remind I remember being so underwhelmed by this movie in theaters and just exploding when that happened. Like I was like, I don't remember the last time I laughed that hard at anything. The entire setup and timing of that is so exquisite of just,

[01:26:54] well, why don't you do it? I tried once didn't work out well. You're not expecting a cut to right? That is not in the common vernacular of these movies. It's so on Disney where it's like, well, have you ever tried it?

[01:27:06] And you're like, we're going to move on. Your I assume we're just about and he's like, well. And you're like, wait, we're doing a family guy style cut away. And then it works. And then it has like it would be funny

[01:27:17] if he just jumped on the boat, play the trumpet and they then jumped off. Like that would be funny. It would not be seismic. What would be would be hilarious. If it was that same lockdown shot, everyone's playing on the boat.

[01:27:30] He climbs over the side looking sneakily, proudly starts playing the trumpet. Everyone looks at him aghast. That would be funny, right? It's the timing. It's the rhythm of it. Yeah, yeah, it's the timing. It's the fact that he's like, I know they won't like that.

[01:27:45] I'm a crocodile, but surely once I start playing this trumpet, he thinks he can win them over. And the fact that they don't immediately like run off in revulsion, that they're just stunned, silent watching him.

[01:27:57] But then once he jumps back into the water and the guns come out, it becomes. Hold on. Wouldn't you, Griffin? Yes. Wouldn't you be astounded? Yes, you'd stop for one minute at least. Yes, I would. I'm not I'm not questioning. I'm saying it's funny and good.

[01:28:14] I like it. Yeah, yeah. Everyone on the boat had a rifle and people on other levels had. Like he wasn't even on those levels. Why did someone on every level come out and try to shoot this? They're ringing the croc bell. Everyone, please get your croc guns out.

[01:28:34] Just the deeper thing of like where it's like he's a crocodile who loves jazz and they're like, well, how do you know about jazz? Like and he's like, well, the river boats, he's an alligator. I'm sorry, always. Yeah, sorry.

[01:28:45] But the river boats are always going by and all the legends have played on that. And I hear that and I'm like, yeah, that makes sense. I love that. That's great. That makes total sense.

[01:28:53] I also I'd love that as conflict is so specifically I want to be able to play for humans like these these creatures in the swamp don't appreciate my music. I know that's the audience that would get my skill

[01:29:07] and they are scared for their life when they see me. Now, let's move from Lewis to Ray, who is a middle age pageant flyer fly whose friends with Mama Odie. That's how he comes in. OK, sure. Yeah, let me just say I mean you, David,

[01:29:24] saying that like Mama Odie represents your outlook on life, which is you just need to calm down and find someone to kiss. Ray represents Ben's outlook on life was wouldn't it be cool if you wanted to fuck the moon?

[01:29:37] I just want to say where he's like my thing is that I'm in love with the evening star. And it's like, oh, he thinks it's a firefly. I get it. This won't come up again.

[01:29:49] And they're like, no, no, that's going to be the emotional button of the movie. Come on. When he when he dies in his and his essence becomes another star, it's amazing. It's fantastic. It's fucking great. I had totally, totally forgotten that happened.

[01:30:09] I forgot that he actually dies and that they prove him correct, that he gets to be with his love in the night sky forever. You assume because he sort of dies out because when facility steps on him, you don't see it happen that will.

[01:30:25] OK, he'll he won't be dead. They'll come back to this. He'll come back to life. Right. It's really upsetting that it happens and it happens in that way because to be stepped on is so graphic. Like we see him get stepped on real bad.

[01:30:41] And this is a movie where several frogs have gotten like smacked with books and then popped back up while you know when a bug gets stepped on. So the way he just sort of does it casually.

[01:30:54] And then he's just sort of like, OK, you know, and then moves on as well. It's so cruel. I love it. I mean, and then yeah, go ahead. No, no, where are you going to say that? Sorry. Well, I was going to move on to facility.

[01:31:05] So no, if you have more Ray talk, let's talk Ray. He's voiced by Jim Cummings. Yeah, Jim Cummings, who's Winnie the Pooh is a thousand dark wing doc, a million billion different characters. He's Ed. And the hyenas. The Lion King. Yeah.

[01:31:19] You know, he's like he's often your funny guy, I feel like, right? Like he can give you weird, weird noises. Yeah. Yeah. OK. But yeah, Dr. Facilier, the shadow man. I mean, just from from an acting standpoint, Keith David's the MVP of this movie, right?

[01:31:34] Yeah. So dialed in. Such a good singer. The character is frightening. Also, like it's just all Keith David has to do is just like and you're like, oh my God, I'm terrified. Everything about this character visually every time he's on screen

[01:31:52] is just this is the argument for 2D animation, right? Like the character just feels like an argument for this medium being worthwhile. His shadow, the shot, his own shadow, like the back and forth that he has with his own shadow.

[01:32:06] And then the other shadow creatures are it's like it's so it's it's terrifying to me. And his when he gets dragged when he gets dragged to wherever he's going to whatever voodoo hell, whatever. Yeah, he's going to get turned into a statue. It's the it's terrifying.

[01:32:23] I can't imagine being a child and seeing that it's and his face in the in the tombstone of the. Woo, come on. The conception of this character is so bizarre because it's like voodoo street magician who wants to own the city.

[01:32:38] Sure, he is haunted by a bunch of masks who function as like the backup vocalist for Cab Calloway. Right. And he's constantly trying to stay ahead of his debts. Like like he's a gambling addict and they're constantly trying to collect on him.

[01:32:53] Yes. But he's so he just sort of like he kind of like coincidentally stumbles into the plot. I mean, like the opening number you just see him like play in like three card Monty with people and shit. Yeah. And then it gives someone a hair cream

[01:33:08] and they like turn into a werewolf. I like I like that. That's really funny. Right. But then it's just kind of like he's just this guy who exists in the tapestry of this city looking for a way to run everything.

[01:33:23] Yes, he's basically like he's gotten these magic powers. But the price is that he needs to like pay these people in whatever. Dark, you know, magic tricks and things like right. Like yeah, cursing people essentially. Yeah, he has to hand over.

[01:33:40] That was another very frightening image when he when he's like, I'm going to have the city in the palm of my hand and you'll have as many souls as you as you want. And then we see the masks suck the souls out of the fictional people

[01:33:53] of New Orleans that he has in his hands. But we see them pulled out of people. It's so scary. I could I can't imagine seeing that as a kid. I probably would have fast forwarded through it every time.

[01:34:05] I just feel like it's interesting that so often the Disney villains, you know, especially in these movies we've been watching, they're very close to the main characters, right? It's like this is your guardian. This is your parent. This is your boss, you know.

[01:34:19] Yeah, this vagrant essentially this fully not connected at all. Like I'm here to. Right. Naveen is just dumb enough to walk through his like curtain, you know? Like, but it could have been any mark. Yeah, he needs money. Right. Yeah.

[01:34:35] And then Naveen happens to sort of stumble upon Tianan. I mean, there's like an interesting amount of coincidence in this movie versus the usual Disney Princess movies, which are so like it is destined. You know, it is in the tapestry.

[01:34:47] I ran this by you, David, but my brother James, you name and past and future guest, a huge fan of Keith David. We talk about Keith David a lot. We have a group text thread with his friend, Gabe,

[01:35:01] who I think listens to the show where we often will talk about if we've rewatched a good Keith David performance or seen one for the first time. But just like that guy never gets enough credit. Let's have this three person text thread be a safe space

[01:35:13] to just suck us Keith David at any moment. And and I think Gabe at one point throughout what is the best Keith David movie? And I had to send this to you, David. I said it's an interesting question because you have to go.

[01:35:28] Is it what is the best film that Keith David is in? In which case you're thinking the thing, right? You're thinking that kind of thing, right? You know, he's he's been in some very masterpieces. Right. Like the thing might be the best movie he's in.

[01:35:42] Right. But you're like, or is it what movie uses Keith David the best? And when this is top, this is high on the list. Right. Right. Like I don't love this movie, but you kind of have to like it's

[01:35:53] kind of an arguable this is a top three Keith David movie from that prism and that it almost feels like this movie is a tribute to like Keith David. This guy great. This guy is unbelievable. We love Keith David. Yeah.

[01:36:06] Yeah, like let's give him let's he finally gets a run. I find that really hard to even try to answer like even attempt to answer. It is a fascinatingly difficult question. And you forget that like, oh, right, he's in Requiem for a dream.

[01:36:22] Right. Like there's so many movies he's in where you're like, oh, I completely forgot he has like 10 minutes in that one. And then even if you're thinking about like utilizing him versus how good is the movie, but like he's such a good he's such a good villain.

[01:36:35] And yeah, but then he's also such a good like warm, lovable character. Like he can he plays so he can play both sides. And you're just like, I don't know. I don't know what even is the best energy I like from Keith David.

[01:36:48] Like you don't know which one of those you want more than that. That's that's what makes it so tough. I mean, I was saying to David, there's almost an argument. I want to form that the best Keith David movie is something about Mary

[01:36:58] just because that is a performance that is just Keith David. Like he gets to own about a 10 minute stretch of that movie where you just feel like none of that was on paper and he's just giving you everything. He's so funny in that he's just so funny.

[01:37:12] Kind of very crucial to the movies, obviously crucial early scene. Right. You know, like the the line deliveries are very crucial. I mean, that in that year he has that and Armageddon. Yeah. Two huge hits where he has like 10 minutes in each.

[01:37:29] I mean, I would argue that the best Keith David movie is the one you're watching right now, like whichever one you're like, that's the best one. Like you probably are watching a movie that he's in. It's very possible or a TV show. That that's a great point.

[01:37:44] And that's why this group test exists, because anytime we watch a Keith David movie, one of us wants to text the other two and go, like, is this the best one? I'm just looking at his Wikipedia right now. First of all, he says that his three

[01:37:56] favorite voice performances of all time are Spawn, Goliath and Dr. Facilier, which even just thinking about that, you're like, right. He was HBO Spawn. Yeah. And the HBO show. He was Goliath on Gargoyles. And then he's like the best modern Disney villain.

[01:38:13] But then you also look at like other voice over roles and you're like, right, he's the narrator in the English version of Princess Mononoke. He has vaguely anonymous roles like Frollo's soldiers and hunchback of Notre Dame, Apollo the sun god and Hercules.

[01:38:25] Like he's got a lot of the small ones. But then he's in Coraline. Oh, yes. He's the cat in Coraline. Yeah, it's great in Coraline. He's the cat. Yeah. He's so he's so cool. Oh my gosh, that when that cat starts talking, you're like, oh, my.

[01:38:39] Like I want the movie to be this for the rest of the. Yes, that's one of your this cat talk. He's the narrator of like Ken Burns's jazz. You know, he can give you obviously his one season turn on Community is fantastic. I love Elroy Pitaschnik.

[01:38:54] Every time he pops up on on Rick and Morty, I'm like, can I just want to hear him? I love how much they use him and the president, all that shit. But I'm just looking at other shit here.

[01:39:04] And it's like, right, he was he was Black Panther on the Fantastic Four cartoon. I mean, and this is just us talking about the voiceover work, right? I mean, from what do we know, right, Griff?

[01:39:15] He's one of those guys where like, if you've got a role for him, he'll do it. Like he's not he's a hard worker. He's not hard to get. He makes like 10 movies a year. Yes. Right. Like, you know, he'll show up in a big movie.

[01:39:26] He'll show up in a straight to video behind enemy lines sequel. Like he'll he'll do it all. I believe I've read interviews with him where he said as much of just like, I consider myself very lucky to be able to work and I don't take that lightly.

[01:39:41] And he's also a guy who just has the craft and the discipline enough that he truly is never bad. Why should he turn down a role? He will always be the best thing in whatever he's in. It will never diminish his reputation to be in a movie.

[01:39:55] He only makes himself look better by going, how was Keith David so good in this? I just want to say I'm looking at his live action Wikipedia now. So it's to be he has like 10 10 Broadway credits. He's Tony nominee. Like, you know, he's obviously he's one Emmys.

[01:40:12] He's done everything and he's done everything equally well. I just want to say I'm looking at his live action filmography. His first film credit is Disco Godfather Club Patron. Uncredited, right? Hell yeah. So that doesn't really count. That doesn't but like that doesn't really count, right?

[01:40:28] That sounds like it's an extra. What do you think his first proper film role is? I unfortunately know because I was looking to it's the thing. That's his first movie role. It's the thing. The thing is his first movie. Then he's very good in it.

[01:40:40] His second movie is Platoon. Yeah, he's good in that too. Right. And then you're just like, OK, within that first decade, he does bird, he does they live, he does roadhouse, he does always. He does two carpenters and Eastwood a Spielberg. That's right. It's the fucking best.

[01:40:58] He does works with Spike Lee. He did Clarkers. He works with Sam Raimi, did The Quick and the Dead. Like, I mean, he's got an incredible voice as of course. That's what we're talking about here. Yeah.

[01:41:09] I did. I keep replaying when I was in when I was I did a a training lab at the at the public theater in New York right after school and right after college, I should say, so that people know what I'm talking about.

[01:41:24] But I it I played a fellow in one of my scenes. And I keep I replay this in my head often, which was the director was just like, you know, Keith David played a fellow on this stage. So you got to bring it.

[01:41:41] And I think about that every time I do anything, I go, yep, Keith David played a fellow on that stage once. Like I could be I could be in LA shooting something and it'll be like, yeah, but remember that Keith David played a fellow on this.

[01:41:57] You know what's incredible about that, James? It's not like you got to see that performance. Someone just told you, you know, Keith David, he played a fellow and you in your head went, well, that must have been one of the great

[01:42:09] performances in history. You just have no doubt in your mind that that must have been historic work. It's and it must be true. There's probably somewhere I. Yep. God, I'm just look more things. I just like forget like, right, he's the villain in Barbershop.

[01:42:26] He's five roles in Cloud Atlas. It just it's so deep. Yeah. I mean, I do. It's just so much fun to watch this character move on screen. And it is so much fun to hear him see, say or sing anything.

[01:42:41] And you you don't want him to be sucked to the to Voodoo hell. Like you're like, you're like, oh, shit, even though he's been doing all this stuff, we haven't seen him. He hasn't killed anybody. He has a way. No, he's stepped on. He stepped on Ray.

[01:42:54] He stepped on. He did step on Ray. That's the most egregious thing he did. And honestly, I loved Ray. But when he's like, oh, no, I have other plans. I have other plans. Please. No, you're like, no, don't suck him into hell.

[01:43:06] That having been said, he also is one of the most purely villainous Disney characters in that there's no like tragic backstory. There's no redeeming. He's just a guy who enters is scary, is in league with demons and cons people.

[01:43:19] And you're still like, I feel bad for this guy. We should give him another chance. That's Keith David. That's all Keith David, though. Like Keith David is just everything he says simultaneously, kind of scary, kind of funny, kind of sexy.

[01:43:31] It is all three of those things at all times. I want to say that Bruce Smith, who co-directed Space Jam, is his animator and said basically like my favorite Disney villains are Captain Hook and Corella Deville. And that is what I wanted him to be.

[01:43:47] I wanted him to have the physicality of a Corella Deville, right? This sort of long, exeggious, you know, crazy stick, like sort of, you know, herky jerky figure at but then right, like, I guess the sort of panache of a Captain Hook. It's sort of right, yeah.

[01:44:02] Yeah, absolutely. We were talking about that on one of our earlier episodes, how it feels like Captain Hook and or Solo were the first two Disney villains that enjoyed being villains that were like having fun. Captain Hook is cool. He's got a hook for hands. You know that?

[01:44:17] You fully respect them. You fully respect them for having such a good time being like, I'm going to kill this kid. He's like, it looks like I'm going to kill this child. And you're like, fuck yeah, Captain Hook.

[01:44:30] Not only that, you're like, maybe I should kill a child. If it seems like it's working for this guy. Jesus, it's true. He's cool. That's so all this stuff that we're talking about, all this side stuff. I just love it.

[01:44:44] It's part of why I always enjoy this movie. Any time I've thrown it on is the middle section. I think everything you guys are saying about the Navine Tiana romance, totally fair as much as I like people kissing. But it's powered along by all this other stuff,

[01:45:02] which is lots of Disney movies do that, obviously. They have the side characters, you know, give you a lot of the energy. But I love it. I guess I just it just exclusively becomes about the side characters and the villains at this point.

[01:45:15] As long as they're frogs, I kind of just stop giving a shit about the two of them until that's resolved. They really do hand the movie over to them. And it feels like it's theirs. And it's I mean, it's sad.

[01:45:28] I also agree with you, James, that I think in particular, Tiana's frog design is pretty uninspired and and unexpressive. Like it's the Navine frog at least has a little more fun where it's like, oh, is this Pepe La Pew frog and whatever?

[01:45:42] I like when he has the little banjo and he's playing it, the little like log banjo. Yes, the log width with spider web on it, right? Is that what the? Yep. The the Tiana frog just looks like they put eyelashes and hips on the Navine frog.

[01:45:58] Right, it just feels like, well, of course, for the two genders, frog and lady frog. We all know that frog is neutral and lady frog is the variation. Yes, she's got her hands on her hips a lot, obviously,

[01:46:10] because she's always frustrated with them, because he's such a cad. With good reason. Yeah, he's a bit of a cad played by Bruno Campos, who is like kind of retired now. He stopped at right after this movie.

[01:46:25] He like went to law school and now he's like an environmental lawyer. Wow, he was great in this, but I get it. Yeah, he's Brazilian. But before this, you know, he'd been in like Nip Tuck a lot and he'd done, you know, foreign films and you know,

[01:46:38] been in sitcoms and stuff. He's on Jesse, if you remember, he got that Disney money and he was like, I don't need to do anything else. Let me save the world. Yeah, went to Michigan, got a JD. Disney residuals must be so bananas.

[01:46:56] I heard a story second hand from a friend who is friends with someone who had a primary role in a Pixar movie. And I was talking about how I've been trying to like focus more on voiceover work and he was like, that's lucrative right?

[01:47:07] And I'm like, no, it just like at all pay scale, right? If you get one of these big things, I imagine it pays well. It's a lot easier and less time consuming, but everything pretty much pays scale.

[01:47:16] And he was like, so my friend who was in a Pixar movie, I asked her about it and she said, and like a big part and a big one, she was like, it was like $60,000, you know, like nothing to sneeze at.

[01:47:26] But it's like for a movie that big, you're just like, oh, that's, you know, it's what fucking Robin Williams got for Aladdin before all these things got it. But it's like, unless you're a massive movie star and you're the title character, it's pretty much like baseline. You get $60,000.

[01:47:39] And then he was like, and then a year later, the first residual check paid for her house. Oh, my God. Wait, paid for her house? Yeah, she just bought a house the next year. The residuals bought a house. Wow. Yeah. And like a good house in Hollywood.

[01:47:55] This is a major role, I'm assuming. It's like a major supporting role. But then it was also like and then you do the things for the theme parks and the video games and the specials and the shorts and whatever. And it's just like it just never stops.

[01:48:06] Like the thing you get paid least for is doing the movie itself the first time. And then it just never ceases to pay out for you. Well, people do pay for these movies and Disney remains successful. Well, this is the thing I want to talk about, David.

[01:48:21] You were you were saying the the Moana conundrum of, you know, do we want to just watch the girl be good at everything? Do we want to see Tiana just be good at running a business? It was recently announced at Disney Investor Day

[01:48:34] that they are doing a Tiana TV show for Disney Plus that is going to be 2D and it is pointedly going to be 2D by Walt Disney feature animation. It is not done by the television department. It seems like they are giving them a show

[01:48:49] in order to keep 2D animators on payroll, giving them something to do. So it's going to be high quality. I think this is co-insiding with a Splash Mountain is now going to be a Tiana ride. Disney looked at the clock and went 2020.

[01:49:06] Now feels like the moment for to begin considering that maybe one of our biggest rides shouldn't be themed around Song of the South. So they announced that Splash Mountain is going to be redone to be all Tiana themed. And I think they're probably dovetailing those two things together.

[01:49:23] It seems like Disney is trying to use Tiana as a human, who is now a princess and a business owner as more of a character to make more stories in that timeline and not just be stuck with frog Tiana.

[01:49:38] We should acknowledge that in the final act of this movie, of course, Niveen tries to get kissed by what's her pants, the John Goodman's daughter. Lotty. Doesn't get it done in time. It's also a pretty sweaty... Oh, she will technically be a princess for three hours

[01:49:57] because her father is King of Mardi Gras. Okay. No, it's cool. It's cool. He's the King of Mardi Gras. OK. Just like if you're the mattress king, right? Or you're like the real estate king. But then does that make your daughter the mattress princess?

[01:50:12] That's my question. OK, why not? Yes, but it doesn't work because Mardi Gras ends and so they decide to just be frogs together. And then of course they are legally wed as frogs. And in that that makes Tiana a princess because he is a prince.

[01:50:26] And so when they kiss, they are humans again. That's how they close that circle. And I'll say when that happens, I go, yeah, guys, you should have realized that a long time ago, you're a prince. They sang the whole song. They sang the whole song.

[01:50:40] They didn't get it. Maybe they were worried that like a swamp wedding, a swamp frog wedding might not be legally binding in the eyes of magic. I don't know. I don't know. Did you notice, though, that the magic was slimy when they transformed? Very slimy. Yes.

[01:50:57] I like that. Oh, at the end, when they when they reverted back. Yeah. I didn't notice that. They got some mucus magic. We love it. I am just like, I don't know what this Tiana show is going to be.

[01:51:08] But I would be very excited if it was just like Tiana and her animal friends. Yeah, run a cafe. I would love for it to be that. Yeah, like Louis plays the trumpet there. I mean, that's a great start right there.

[01:51:24] All right, I'm just like make it cheers in the 1920s in New Orleans. And Louis is like coach, but he also plays music. I don't not like that. I would love that. Like it's called Tiana's place and like, you know, everyone shows up there.

[01:51:41] The regular people that go there every day. There's there's a there has to be, though, like a voodoo, like a protege of of of facility who is like who's going after them or I won't watch the show. Yeah, keep David needs to be involved. Please please.

[01:51:59] But yeah, all that's known as it's called Tiana. Oh, it's just called Tiana. That's they should have done that. That's wrong. It's just called Tiana, which in and of itself is like encouraging. No, it shouldn't have been called Tiana's place. Well, I'm saying we're halfway there.

[01:52:14] We're almost there. What if it was called like the further adventures of Tiana and she's definitely a frog? Like what if they made it? Yeah, no, I'm hoping they'll evolve the title to Tiana's place. Yeah, because it feels like if it's something called Tiana,

[01:52:30] I would feel like there'd be like, we found a reason to make her a frog again. You know what I mean? Like it just feel it begs it begs to do that again. You know, like I like I hate when TV shows about a movie do that

[01:52:42] where they're like that thing that you really don't like about the movie. We're going to make that the whole thing. We're going to undo whatever exciting cathartic victory happened at the end of the movie. Oh, yeah, I'm interested to see what that show is. But it is interesting.

[01:53:03] I feel like this movie comes out, they were pinning a lot on it. They were banging the drum really hard of like, this is important. We have to regain the Disney musical. It underperforms and then Tangled is so big the next year.

[01:53:16] You know, then the next run of them are all just getting bigger and bigger and bigger that it's just like, well, I guess no looking back now. It feels like I don't know. I worked at the Disney store a couple years after this movie came out

[01:53:29] and Tiana merch was always really, really big. It did always feel like there was a lot of love for this character, even if the movie never got elevated to that classic status. I think this movie has a big cultural footprint.

[01:53:42] I know a lot of like, you know, young kids like it. Like it does feel like it has lingered. I mean, for them to it's not just, you know, like for them to do the Splash Mountain thing and to announce the TV show, like you say,

[01:53:55] like obviously they must have noticed. It feels like they're they're noticing that there's love for this movie a decade plus later. I'm interested to see what they do with the character in the world now because there are elements.

[01:54:07] I like yeah, they also made a huge mistake, which is that they released this film in mid December. I don't know why they did that. Like, obviously they put it out limited like Thanksgiving weekend, but like it's wide releases. December 11th. This is a summer movie, I think.

[01:54:23] Yeah. Like I you know, I, you know, sure, Disney Christmas, it's family time, but like nothing about this movie is Christmassy. No. And also that's just such a busy time. Like, you know, like it's a little tougher to nose in there.

[01:54:37] I also I I think it's weirdly like it's too light. It's too much of a romp to play as a holiday movie. You know where I think if a Disney musical is going to count on the holidays, it usually has a little more weight to it.

[01:54:51] And even just like Tangled and Frozen feel more epic and have more adventure and action and shit, you know? When did Frozen come out? Frozen was a Thanksgiving movie, right? Frozen Tangled both come out in November. Yeah. Yeah. Now they pretty much stick with the Thanksgiving.

[01:55:06] Moana, Frozen, Tangled, both Ralph movies are Thanksgiving. Zootopia is like the one that came out in the spring. Huge hit. Huge hit. I mean all of them have been hits. Yes. OK, we're going to play the box office game. We're doing the wide release, right?

[01:55:21] Griffin, that's what you want. Yeah, right. Because they tried to repeat that thing, too, where they like released it in one theater in LA, one theater in New York, and then it didn't even really blow the doors off there. Oh, I would say that it did.

[01:55:33] I mean, a four hundred thousand dollar per screen average is pretty good, right? Yeah. I I stand corrected. I misremembered. It did. It did good. But I do think that whole strategy is a mistake these days.

[01:55:45] But I I I know in New York, they played it at like the Ziegfeld and they had some pre-show thing and like a program and the tickets cost more. And they were really trying to make it into like a road show style event

[01:55:58] thing for that one week to hope that it would build word of mouth as like this is important. Yeah, am I am I correct? I remember it like just made 100. It made, yeah, domestically, it made a hundred and four, made 270 worldwide, tangled like you said,

[01:56:16] makes 200 and like 580 worldwide, like tangled. Just a big level up. And it's partly the 3D thing, I think, you know, you know, there's other things too. But like I do think that it's just like no,

[01:56:27] 3D movies are now what children's animated movies look like, you know, get used to it. Yeah. And one could argue they're this had not laid dormant long enough for there to be quite the sense of longing that was needed.

[01:56:41] I think tangled also like even though it's a different visual stuff, I think tangled benefited from the same. Oh, it's been a while since there was a princess musical. Right. I guess that's part of it.

[01:56:51] I mean, I also think like the reason I didn't see this movie in theaters is that she turns into a frog and I saw the trailer and I was like, that seems stupid. Like what? Why is she a frog?

[01:57:00] Like I was just kind of like, I'll catch this later. And then I caught it later and I was like, a firefly turns into a star. It's about kissing. This is good. All the Disney corporate people also like talk about this is like one of their

[01:57:13] water loos where they're just like, we really had faith in if we sell the Disney magic, we need to be a princess. It needs to be traditional. It needs to be classical. People will want it. And they said, like by the time it came out,

[01:57:26] the perception was this is old fashioned and only for little girls. Like this is for five year olds. This is a baby movie. Like it very much read juvenile and read kind of stodgy. It's why I think it will happen at some point.

[01:57:41] There will be some moment where whatever the cultural temperature is right. And this probably wasn't it. I think when people saw Tangled and Frozen, which they marketed deceptively, but it worked in terms of getting people

[01:57:53] to the theater, I would hear people say, oh, I didn't realize how much I missed those movies. OK, so does this movie open at number one? Well, in its wide release, yes, it gets to number one. It's a twenty four million dollars.

[01:58:07] It's not a huge opening, but solid. And the the next week in Avatar comes out. See, that's another fucking problem. You're right. Yes, the next week in Avatar comes out. Yeah, I think it's literally the week before the biggest movie. Come on, there's too much.

[01:58:25] There's too much to act against. It was just they fucked up everything. The number two, though, Griffin is one of the major phenomenons of the year. It's dropped to 25 percent in its fourth week. It's still number two, dropping really low every single time.

[01:58:42] It was number one the week before. Is it what I consider the most inexplicable blockbuster of the 2010s? Sure, I don't know. The Blind Side. It's the Blind Side. Yeah. How the fuck did that happen? I still don't get it. It's like American Sniper.

[01:58:56] It was like a Heartland movie. It was a movie where it's like this is a great inspirational true story. We're taking the whole family. Like, you know what I mean? Like even more so because American Sniper was intense. So that had that.

[01:59:07] But the Blind Side is just like this is a movie for the whole family. You'll laugh, you'll cry, you'll check your blind side like it right. You know, I cannot. I once again, David, it's not that I don't understand that they were successful.

[01:59:22] The numbers on those two movies are so outsized. It's there. They're crazy. It's bizarre that it's just like why these ones to some degree and like what Blind Side was 250 domestic. Yeah, there was the Bullock thing, I guess, like, oh, it's a comeback for her proposal

[01:59:39] had come out that same year. Right. Yeah. And like she wins the Oscar obviously. But yeah, not a good movie. I did see it. Not very good. Just like really treakly. But as you said, it like opened big like the same weekend as Twilight

[01:59:54] and they were like, wow, that's a big number two for Blind Side. And then Twilight started dropping and Blind Side started growing. And then it was number one, like in its third or fourth week and it's still holding on. Yep. So bizarre that movie.

[02:00:08] Number three, another inspirational sports true story drama knew this week from 2009. And it's not it's not a live action Disney, right? No, it's not. It's an Oscar nominated film from a major outure

[02:00:26] who we will cover one day, maybe, I guess, even though he's made like a million movies. Is it based on a true story, a true athlete? Yes, true story, a major, major historical figure of our lifetime. But it's a sports movie.

[02:00:42] Yeah, it's a sports movie with a major historical figure of our lifetime. Certainly. That's an interesting distinction. I mean, I just mean like this is this is the movie where it's like, oh my God, this big actor is playing this insanely famous consequential person.

[02:00:59] But also it's a sports movie. The sports thing is almost kind of secondary. You think of the person as a figure first kind of. He's a political figure of major importance. It's just that like it's just that. Do you know what this is?

[02:01:17] I'm just like this isn't Ali. What is this? Yeah, I have no idea. I try to think of other athletes who had like major political importance. And I like he's not an athlete. He's not an athlete, but the movie is a sports movie. Oh, oh, oh, oh, motherfucker.

[02:01:37] It's Invictus Invictus. Morgan Freeman as Nelson Mandela. Yeah. Basically the first major Nelson Mandela because the interstellar one comes later, right? Long walk to freedom. Yeah. Like and like Morgan Freeman, I feel like had been circling a Nelson Mandela movie

[02:01:55] for so long and then it's like we're doing it. Clint Eastwood is directing it. And it's specifically about the 1994 Rugby World Cup. That's what it's about. It's about that like that year him getting this like team like to win a big trophy, this team of like white players.

[02:02:13] Like that that's the narrative they finally settled on. It is one of those movies that I feel like in like January or February of any year, there's a movie that entertainment writers already resent where you're like, this is just going to win every fucking Oscar.

[02:02:28] And that film always somehow comes up short. Like it's like the Cinderella Man. Yes, good shepherd. Charlie Wilson's War, good shepherd kind of center where you're like these people making this movie on this subject. And I just remember my dad watching some ESPN

[02:02:45] like 30 for 30 about the real story. And he was just like, that's going to win best picture so fucking hard. You're telling me Morgan Freeman is playing Nelson Mandela. They're going to give him all four acting categories this year.

[02:02:58] Just one and Oscar was part of the problem for a Clint Eastwood movie. But also the whole movie is just kind of a little limp. It's just sort of air. It's a little limp. Yeah. I only saw it once. Have you seen it, James? I mean, it's OK.

[02:03:09] I have not seen it. It's such a shrug of a movie, such a shrug of a movie. All right, number four, Griffin, as you mentioned, it's a major franchise entry. It's Twilight, but it's the second one. It's New Moon directed by friend of the show, Chris White.

[02:03:23] New Moon colossal colossal hit. He's a million dollars. I mean, as I've said before on the show, I went to see New Moon at midnight. And when the Summit Entertainment logo came up, it got more applause than I will ever earn for anything in my entire life.

[02:03:40] It was a sobering moment. It was you have to limit your expectations for your career. You will never create that much excitement in anyone. And number five is a movie that we just discussed on this podcast,

[02:03:54] another Disney film more suited to the holiday than Princess and the Frog. Oh, we just discussed it on this podcast. We didn't do an episode about it, did we? We did in our past mini series. Oh, it's fucking Christmas Carol. It's a Christmas Carol.

[02:04:11] I mean, truly the most boring film ever made. Jim Carrey, you're very dull. I never saw it. It's not good. Yeah. I mean, James, I'll put it this way. I've watched it and I haven't seen it. That's how I feel about the blind side.

[02:04:27] I've watched it, but I haven't seen it. It's impossible to have seen that movie. You can watch it. You can be in the act of watching it currently. You cannot have watched it. Some other movies in the top ten brothers. Remember Brothers, Toby McGuire, Jake Juhlin Hall.

[02:04:42] Brothers, what if they were brothers? That's another one, though, where it's like, isn't it a remake of a Suzanne Beer movie and it's Jim Sheridan and Natalie Portman? It was just like, oh, Oscar, Oscar, Oscar, Oscar. Yeah, too dark, I think, because it's an Iraq war drama.

[02:04:58] You know, that sort of long legacy of Iraq war drama is not connecting with audiences until American Sniper. Old Dogs Griffin is in the top ten. Yes. I mean, the most demented film ever made. You've got 2012. Roland Emmerich is 2012. A movie I love. You love 2012?

[02:05:17] Yeah, you always give me shit for this. Yeah, when that when the dude throws his his child up and then falls into the cataclysm, oh man, come on, that's it's beautiful. Exactly, James, it is precisely my flavor of nonsense.

[02:05:35] It is the exact kind of ugly, bullshit nonsense that I fall for. Well, we hated that guy, you know what I mean? Yes. We were like, this guy's such an asshole, you know, but then he died saving his child.

[02:05:47] And so then it was like, but is he because that was what was driving him was his kids the whole time. Yes, absolutely. Also, that movie has an original song sung by Adam Lambert called Time for Miracles

[02:06:00] that feels like one of the more recent examples of someone trying to do I don't want to miss a thing. And I just love the music video of Adam Lambert, fully Adam Lambert, it singing like this love theme from 2012,

[02:06:13] intercut with footage of like buildings falling into the center of the earth. It's just it's a thing we stopped getting outside of the 90s. And that alone makes me love the movie so much. The only one I want to shout out is that Nimrod and tells armor,

[02:06:28] which is like a pretty good B movie. Like, yeah, that guy is a good B movie director. And that's his best work. He was sort of supposed to be the next guy. I feel like he was being pegged is like, this is a cool

[02:06:42] like genre scrappy guy who's going to move up and be like Jamie Colette, Sarah. And then it sort of never really happened. It didn't happen because his Predator's movie, which is pretty fun, doesn't make enough money or whatever. Like, and that kind of dooms him.

[02:06:55] But that movie, you know, Matt Dillon, Lawrence Fishburne, Jean Renault, you know, they're robbing an armored truck. It's good shit. Yeah, geez, right. It's he does vacancy armored Predators. He does controlled, which was Hungarian. But those three American movies, which people like,

[02:07:12] then does the Metallica half concert documentary, half fiction film. And then he's made one Hungarian film since then. He just like totally he's working on Shyamalan's show, Servant. Right now, he's been directing some of that. So I guess maybe he's trying to nudge his way back in.

[02:07:28] I don't know. I just definitely felt like he was being primed. Yeah, anyway. That's it. Princess and the Frog doesn't do that well. Ron Musker is a Clementson Musker. They go into retirement sort of, right? Right. That's what's so funny is it's like Disney fires them.

[02:07:46] They go like, I guess we're done. Lassiter pulls them off and goes like, you got to come back. They do this movie at underperformance. They're like, I guess we're retired. I forgot. No, I forgot. They don't retire. They go back to developing an adaptation of Terry Pratchett's

[02:08:00] novel, Mort from this world, which is like their other passion project. Right, which was never going to get made at Disney. Right. Right. And they can't figure out the rights. And so it never happens. And they're kind of like, well, you know, I guess, you know, whatever.

[02:08:14] And then Disney's like, you're coming back, baby. That's what that's what happened. They didn't retire. They left Disney. They got fired from Disney. They left Disney and now they're retired. Now they now they are officially retired.

[02:08:27] I think I've heard that John Mosker, and we can talk about this next week, is currently animating a digital short himself by hand, which sounds like just like a fun old guy project. You know what I mean? Like so that's cool.

[02:08:41] But yes, that's there. That's up with them. Just everything about these guys who it's very hard to figure out who they are. And I have a friend who recently watched like a video digital

[02:08:54] Q&A with them and was like, I watch them speak for like an hour and a half. I don't know who they are. They just seem like nice old guys, but it also is hard to picture them ever being young.

[02:09:05] They just feel like they fundamentally have always been nice old bald men. But you know that it's such a run from them. It's the most definable run in like Disney history in a crazy way. James, thank you so much for coming on the show. Guys, thank you.

[02:09:21] It had been far too long. We will have you on again much sooner. People should watch Astronomy Club on Netflix. I'm a strong believer in that you should never stop plugging your canceled streaming show. Yeah, please watch Astronomy Club. Watch season one.

[02:09:38] I feel like they need to change the you know, they have the they'll tell you how many seasons. Yeah, the drop down menu. Yeah. And you know, they need to just be like the show, you know,

[02:09:49] they need to not say the season number because then that feels like makes you feel like there's going to be more seasons to it, you know? Because seasons come back. That's the whole thing about a season. Is it right? It should say like the complete series or whatever.

[02:10:04] Something very fancy found is fancy sounding. It should say a season. Yes, AC. Well, that sounds weird because then it's like you have to go hunt for the other ones. Like I don't think we got a season. Yeah, we got a season of this.

[02:10:19] But it was a great show canceled far too soon. To see the best. Yeah, but you're you're you're the best and people should listen to Blackfish Kinchup in Hollywood, obviously. Please do. Yeah. You know, talking about we listen to listen to both episodes,

[02:10:34] listen to me talk about Prince of the Frog here and then there and then just see. And so there as well, I'm excited to listen to your guys' whole episode. And thank you all for listening to this episode. Please remember to rate, review and subscribe.

[02:10:49] Thanks to Joe Bone and Pat Reynolds for our artwork. Thank you to Marie Barty for our social media. Thank you to our editing team, Alex Barron and AJ McKeehan. Thanks to the great American novel for our theme song. Go to blankies.reddit.com for some real nerdy shit

[02:11:07] and go to our Shopify page for some real nerdy merch. We're still trekking. We're going to keep on trekking through the Kirk and Spock movies over on Patreon. So tune in for that. And I guess our Blankie Awards episode will be coming up right around now, right?

[02:11:22] I believe Moana next and then the blankies. Yes. Yes. So that's what you have to look forward to. Next week, Moana closing the book on Musker and Clements. We're going to consider the coconut. And and then after that, we're going to consider the best of 2020,

[02:11:36] a year that is defined by how good it was. A year to remember. I love reminiscing about 2020. All those movies I watched on my couch. James, what a time you just made me realize there's going to be a point where people start saying,

[02:11:53] is it crazy that I'm like a little bit nostalgic for quarantine? It's going to happen right away. That's going to happen next week. It's going to take two goddamn days and I'm going to go a buzzer. A week into Biden's presidency and we see how everyone goes crazy.

[02:12:12] I mean, actually probably by the time this comes out, it will have very much passed. But but a week into Biden's presidency, everyone's going to be like, oh, remember when whatever crazy thing happens didn't happen anymore? I know right by this by the point this episode comes out,

[02:12:27] people be writing New York Times op ed saying, is it just me or do I miss getting offended by things the president tweets every day? I miss Trump on Twitter. Why is this guy so level headed? I mean, where's the drama?

[02:12:42] I felt the sense of risk every morning when I woke up to be clear. I do not feel that way. I don't feel that way either. Never, absolutely. Never fucking never. Never. Well, and as always, that's it. Yeah, as always, we're just never going to feel that way.

[02:13:02] I don't even have an additional joke. I just want to reassert. We will never feel that way. Do you have a Cajun in you? We're going to find out right now.