Twin Peaks: The Return (Episodes 9-13) with Fran Hoepfner

[00:00:30] What are you doing? We're trying to record a podcast! We're already late! We're late for the podcast! It's way past 1230! Why is this happening? I saw that gun go shooting out the window! Fran Hoffner is joining us! We haven't seen her in a long while! We're late! We got five episodes to go! Please, we have to record the podcast! She's sick!

[00:00:55] Is that Naomi Watts? No, this is the woman in the car. Oh yeah, right! Of course! Of course! Right! Kind of my favorite scene! That scene is so intense! Amazing! Oh God! Yeah! Yeah! No! Amazing! You know what's kind of difficult? What? Finding quotes from individual chunks of Twin Peaks 3? Yeah, breaking a season into like four parts and then being like, I gotta find a quote for one of these episodes? You didn't have to! You could have begun the episode with like, I can't find a quote because of the specific format of this. Here's the problem!

[00:01:23] We've been doing this show so fucking long that I've done that move four times now probably. The novelty of weird I couldn't find a quote is now overplayed. So I had to do that thing that was exciting, that was riveting.

[00:01:37] It was fantastic! It was gripping. And it reminded me that I watched these episodes a little bit ago because of course, why didn't I recognize that a little bit? What? When did you watch them? I don't know. Like, you know, a few weeks back. David's gesturing with his head like it's in the corner.

[00:01:52] Yeah. Yeah. I haven't watched the next chunk. Okay. I haven't either. And I haven't seen, this is my first time watching this. Really? Okay, we're in the same place. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I was worried about not being caught, like fully caught up.

[00:02:08] No, we've been, we've been both for Griffin and Ben's sake, but also for listeners who are maybe also watching for the first time. Yeah.

[00:02:15] You know, mindful of like not talking about what's going to happen.

[00:02:19] Now can I say, there are two things...

[00:02:21] Now then again, Maggie did shoot Mr. Burns.

[00:02:24] What?

[00:02:27] And, uh, uh, what's another like...

[00:02:29] He tried to steal Candy Farm Baby and he was pointing at M&S.

[00:02:32] They thought it was Waylon Smithers because they were looking at it from the wrong direction, but he was doing M&S.

[00:02:38] Yes.

[00:02:38] Maggie Simpson.

[00:02:39] Uh, what's another like famous TV cliffhanger that's not who shot J.R. that I could sort of...

[00:02:44] Well, because of course Maggie Simpson shot J.R.

[00:02:47] Yes, she did.

[00:02:48] He tried to steal Candy Farm Baby and he pointed at M&S.

[00:02:49] Shot that motherfucker.

[00:02:50] Yeah.

[00:02:51] Uh, what's another TV cliffhanger?

[00:02:53] Uh, who killed Laura Palmer? I feel like that's a big kind of famous...

[00:02:55] But no, but that wasn't the cliffhanger. That's the premise of the show.

[00:02:58] Okay, cliffhanger?

[00:02:58] I'm talking about a classic TV cliffhanger where it's like...

[00:03:02] What's in the hatch?

[00:03:02] Oh, hey guys, what's in the hatch?

[00:03:03] Well, I was gonna say we have to go back later.

[00:03:06] Yeah.

[00:03:06] We have to go back is probably the best end of season...

[00:03:10] In Lost.

[00:03:11] ...like, that Lost ever did.

[00:03:13] But that's kind of an interesting one because it's less a cliffhanger and more being like,

[00:03:17] holy shit, that's where the show is going next?

[00:03:19] Right, like more like a poem or so.

[00:03:21] Right, you didn't know how that was gonna manifest?

[00:03:23] What's in the hatch isn't bad, Isaiah.

[00:03:25] Thank you.

[00:03:26] But a lot of people at the time were kind of like, wait, they're just gonna open the door

[00:03:30] and we don't even, like, all the whole season of them waiting to open this fucking door and

[00:03:35] then we don't know what's in there?

[00:03:36] I thought it was great.

[00:03:37] Me too.

[00:03:37] I loved it.

[00:03:37] You know what was great?

[00:03:38] The answer.

[00:03:39] My favorite guy.

[00:03:40] He's awesome.

[00:03:41] Big D.

[00:03:42] Lost fucking...

[00:03:42] I've been thinking a lot about Lost.

[00:03:44] Nailed.

[00:03:44] Both because I've been watching this and I think about that time of my life, but also Lost

[00:03:49] is holding up.

[00:03:50] You know, I haven't...

[00:03:51] Lost is doing great.

[00:03:52] I haven't done the rewatch.

[00:03:53] Uh, Joe Robinson when she was doing, uh, the Lost...

[00:03:57] Lost rewatch.

[00:03:58] Yeah.

[00:03:58] The storm.

[00:03:59] I asked to come on only for Desmond episodes because Desmond's my guy.

[00:04:02] So I rewatched only the Desmond arc, basically his solo episode.

[00:04:07] Which is probably pretty great if you...

[00:04:09] Which I thought, like, interesting and also felt very, um, evocative during lockdown to

[00:04:15] watch the Desmond arc.

[00:04:16] And he's my main guy.

[00:04:18] But I've been tempted to go back and watch all of it.

[00:04:21] Look, it's been coming up a lot in our watch through of Twin Peaks because this, of course,

[00:04:25] is Blank Check with Griffin and David.

[00:04:27] I'm Griffin.

[00:04:27] I'm David.

[00:04:28] It's a podcast about filmographies, directors who have massive success early on in their

[00:04:31] careers.

[00:04:33] They're given a series of blank checks.

[00:04:34] Make whatever crazy passion products they want and sometimes those checks clear and

[00:04:38] sometimes they bounce.

[00:04:39] Baby.

[00:04:39] This is a miniseries on the films of David Lynch, but also his TV shows.

[00:04:45] Uh, it's called Twin Pods Firecast with me.

[00:04:49] Today we're covering episodes 9 through 13.

[00:04:53] Uh, that's correct.

[00:04:55] Of Twin Peaks The Return.

[00:04:56] And Lost has been coming up a lot as, when you watch a thing like this, you're forced

[00:05:02] to, like, compare it to all the other great failures and successes of the kind of, like,

[00:05:07] shows that keep you on tender hooks, spin out their mythology, raise questions, answer

[00:05:14] them or not.

[00:05:14] These things that become cultural phenomenons and how they sustain themselves.

[00:05:18] Yeah.

[00:05:18] And I think Lost also had that thing, especially in later seasons, where the sea storyline for

[00:05:24] an episode would be something extremely mundane.

[00:05:26] Yes.

[00:05:26] Of, like, we're going to set up a library on the island or, like, the golf course thing.

[00:05:31] Right.

[00:05:31] There would be these almost little, like, soapy kind of storylines that had nothing to

[00:05:35] do with the greater mystery of anything.

[00:05:36] Would just be like, well, if you live on an island now, you're going to want a golf course,

[00:05:40] I guess.

[00:05:40] Which is fascinating because at the time, that was a thing that people would point to of,

[00:05:44] like, they don't know where they're doing.

[00:05:45] The show's going to fuck it up.

[00:05:47] Like, it's getting thin.

[00:05:49] Totally.

[00:05:50] And then Twin Peaks The Return is David Lynch being like, what if I really didn't resolve

[00:05:55] the things that you guys cared about?

[00:05:57] What if I didn't even spend that much time on the things?

[00:06:01] That you previously associate with the show?

[00:06:04] It's, like, kind of crazy that Audrey only comes in in this block of episodes?

[00:06:09] Yeah.

[00:06:10] Audrey's part in Twin Peaks The Return is a real curveball in general, I would say.

[00:06:15] I'm already trying to wrap my head around it, and I cannot guess what's to come.

[00:06:19] Now, can I take you to task, David?

[00:06:22] You can do whatever you want, but I was just looking at some, like, cliffhangers.

[00:06:26] Yeah.

[00:06:27] I mean, like, Buffy dying at the end of season five.

[00:06:30] Oh, yeah.

[00:06:30] But that's kind of spoilers.

[00:06:32] Well, sorry.

[00:06:33] But that kind of felt like, you know, one of those things where you're like, well, I

[00:06:38] mean, it's coming back, so I assume they'll figure that out.

[00:06:41] You know, like, it's a little different from, like...

[00:06:43] Unresolved question.

[00:06:44] The best of both worlds, the classic cliffhanger of season three of Star Trek The Next Generation

[00:06:49] where, like, Picard gets turned into a Borg.

[00:06:52] Yes.

[00:06:52] And they're like, to be continued.

[00:06:54] And you are truly like, I have to wait four months to find out.

[00:06:59] I mean, again, you're like, I assume he won't be anymore, but, like, you know, that...

[00:07:03] You don't get that anymore.

[00:07:04] Yeah.

[00:07:05] Well, I think killing Angel in Buffy was more of a cliffhanger almost than killing Buffy.

[00:07:11] Killing Angel.

[00:07:12] Or when they banish him.

[00:07:13] They banish him to whatever.

[00:07:14] That's the thing.

[00:07:15] They just kick him into the hell mouth.

[00:07:16] He comes back out and he starts a great detective agency and then nine episodes into that detective

[00:07:20] agency, he's like, I'm going to revamp the cast completely because this isn't working.

[00:07:24] And then they made a good show.

[00:07:25] And then they made a way better show.

[00:07:26] Yeah.

[00:07:27] And then they revamped the cast one more time because Joss Whedon is a, you know, problematic

[00:07:31] manager.

[00:07:31] And that final season also rocks.

[00:07:33] Oh, it's so good.

[00:07:35] Season five of Angel.

[00:07:36] It's like the greatest season of any TV.

[00:07:38] It's so fucking good.

[00:07:40] But you know about the Muppet episode, right?

[00:07:42] That's Edlin's episode.

[00:07:43] I know.

[00:07:44] But you know about that, right?

[00:07:45] Of course.

[00:07:46] It's Smile Time.

[00:07:47] So fucking good.

[00:07:48] Yeah.

[00:07:48] But did he, I think he wrote and directed that?

[00:07:50] He definitely wrote it.

[00:07:51] Yeah.

[00:07:52] You know, what if we took this vampire show and made it Boston Legal is a great question.

[00:07:57] And you're just like, well, that wouldn't work.

[00:07:59] That's a powerful question.

[00:07:59] And then they're like, watch it work.

[00:08:01] And you're like, this works.

[00:08:02] Yeah.

[00:08:02] But like, it's more than that.

[00:08:04] It's like, what if he started working for the villains?

[00:08:06] And you're like, okay, that's a TV plot.

[00:08:08] Yeah.

[00:08:08] Right?

[00:08:08] Like, oh, the villains of this show the whole time.

[00:08:10] And now he's like, now you got to work for him.

[00:08:12] But the villains in Angel are an evil law firm.

[00:08:16] So they managed to turn it into like a weird evil law firm show.

[00:08:19] So fucking lost, right?

[00:08:21] Our guest today is Fran Hoffner.

[00:08:23] I already cite it in the...

[00:08:24] You did direct it too, yes.

[00:08:25] In the quote.

[00:08:26] Thank you.

[00:08:27] Fran Hoffner, Fran Magazine.

[00:08:29] That's right.

[00:08:30] Features Editor.

[00:08:32] Oh, wow.

[00:08:32] New title.

[00:08:33] Yeah, I was thinking about...

[00:08:34] You demoted yourself?

[00:08:34] Yeah, I was thinking about demoting myself.

[00:08:36] Being like, I got bought out or something.

[00:08:38] Yeah, like...

[00:08:38] You sold to Penske.

[00:08:39] You could have like an evil publisher who you're always railing against.

[00:08:43] Yeah.

[00:08:43] Like in the comments, you'd be like, Fran Magazine would be producing more, but for evil

[00:08:48] EIC or like, yeah.

[00:08:50] I'm obsessed with cliques.

[00:08:51] Yeah.

[00:08:51] My brother, who's like a founding member, is always sending me editorial notes.

[00:08:55] Because he's a founding member.

[00:08:56] Yeah.

[00:08:56] He's like, you haven't talked about WWE at all.

[00:08:59] And I'm like, well, I don't know anything about that.

[00:09:01] He's like, well, the readers are interested in that.

[00:09:03] I'm hearing on the wind.

[00:09:05] Yeah.

[00:09:06] I think part of the conversation around Lost and it being one of the first shows where it

[00:09:13] really felt like there was a profound discussion happening between the internet and the makers

[00:09:19] of the show, right?

[00:09:21] And people sort of felt empowered that they were like, we're being heard and recognized.

[00:09:27] Yes.

[00:09:28] I think the long tail of that, a thing that now is pervasive, especially in like streaming

[00:09:32] shows and sort of like shorter seasons spaced out and whatever, is like we need to maintain

[00:09:38] the sense that we know where this is going from the beginning.

[00:09:41] And what I miss is the sloppiness of TV being like, fuck, something in the chaos of us just

[00:09:47] needing to produce 22 episodes in nine month stretches with only three months off causes

[00:09:53] people to sometimes just be like, fuck, what if this is a legal show now?

[00:09:56] Yeah.

[00:09:56] We don't care about it seeming like this was our plan the whole time.

[00:10:00] Yeah.

[00:10:00] Or like what if they go back to the 70s?

[00:10:02] Right.

[00:10:02] On Lost.

[00:10:03] Yes.

[00:10:03] Just fun shifts like that.

[00:10:05] David, I want to take your test.

[00:10:07] Okay.

[00:10:07] What did I do?

[00:10:08] You spoiled two things for me.

[00:10:10] Okay.

[00:10:10] You're saying that you're trying not to talk ahead.

[00:10:12] I am.

[00:10:12] What hasn't happened?

[00:10:13] And I'm sorry if I messed up.

[00:10:15] What did I do?

[00:10:17] The parentage, Audrey Horn.

[00:10:19] Billy's the son's name?

[00:10:21] No.

[00:10:21] Yeah.

[00:10:21] Yes.

[00:10:22] Richard Horn.

[00:10:23] I'm sorry.

[00:10:23] Richard Horn.

[00:10:24] Yes.

[00:10:24] I referred to him with his last name, forgetting that, of course, that is sort of a spoiler.

[00:10:30] Yes.

[00:10:31] Yes.

[00:10:31] I think we cut it out of its episode, but you ruined that for me.

[00:10:33] But here's the bigger one.

[00:10:35] I would say it's not important really who he is, but it is sort of, I guess.

[00:10:41] Can't say.

[00:10:41] Can't say.

[00:10:42] I mean, the moment was stolen from me.

[00:10:44] Okay.

[00:10:44] Fair enough.

[00:10:44] I didn't get to experience it.

[00:10:45] Here's the bigger one that I find more offensive.

[00:10:48] In our last episode, I raised the philosophical question, does Dougie fuck?

[00:10:52] Yeah.

[00:10:52] And you said, of course, we see Dougie fuck.

[00:10:55] Oh, and I was talking about a future episode.

[00:10:57] How?

[00:10:57] I think I'd remember that if that happened.

[00:10:59] And then when the sex scene happens in this, I'm like, this is 100% what David was talking

[00:11:03] about.

[00:11:04] Yes.

[00:11:04] Yeah.

[00:11:04] I'm sorry.

[00:11:05] I was an episode off or whatever.

[00:11:06] It's another thing that would have rattled me to my core.

[00:11:09] What, Dougie fucking?

[00:11:10] And apparently fucking better than anyone while doing as little as possible.

[00:11:14] But like, he's just, you know, he's just got his mojo.

[00:11:18] Why wouldn't Dougie fuck?

[00:11:19] Because we.

[00:11:20] Well, because he doesn't barely know how to like put his pants on.

[00:11:23] Right.

[00:11:23] And I was like, there's no direct implication.

[00:11:26] I was reading that they're sleeping together.

[00:11:31] So I was like, let's fill in the space here.

[00:11:33] And David was like, of course, we've seen him fuck already.

[00:11:36] Right.

[00:11:36] Right.

[00:11:37] I'm sorry.

[00:11:38] I'm sorry that I spoiled for you that Dougie does get that thing on.

[00:11:42] Yeah.

[00:11:43] He does, you know, whatever.

[00:11:45] Go to pound town.

[00:11:46] Yeah.

[00:11:46] With his wife.

[00:11:48] It's more like Amy Watts gets her Dougie on.

[00:11:50] Yeah.

[00:11:51] Right.

[00:11:52] Welcome, Fran.

[00:11:53] Welcome, Fran.

[00:11:54] Thank you.

[00:11:56] How are you doing?

[00:11:57] Oh, I'm pretty good.

[00:12:00] Long ago.

[00:12:01] I'm happy to be here.

[00:12:02] Yeah.

[00:12:02] Long ago.

[00:12:03] I asked you if you wanted to talk about Twin Peaks on a show.

[00:12:10] Yeah.

[00:12:10] This show.

[00:12:10] On a show.

[00:12:11] I guess initially we were thinking we would talk about Wild at Heart.

[00:12:14] Yes.

[00:12:14] And then you got mononucleosis.

[00:12:16] I got mononucleosis.

[00:12:16] Not to blow up your spots.

[00:12:17] No, it's fine.

[00:12:18] Everyone knows.

[00:12:18] I got mononucleosis.

[00:12:20] A cute mono?

[00:12:21] Yeah.

[00:12:22] Adorable mono?

[00:12:23] Sometimes.

[00:12:24] That's what I used to call it when I had it.

[00:12:26] It sucks, doesn't it?

[00:12:27] It's really bad.

[00:12:28] Yeah.

[00:12:28] Because there's kind of nothing they can do for you.

[00:12:30] Correct.

[00:12:30] They're like, well, you have it.

[00:12:32] Right.

[00:12:33] You have.

[00:12:33] Right.

[00:12:34] This is just like run out the clock.

[00:12:36] Yeah.

[00:12:36] And I've told this story, but I'm older than the usual person who gets mono.

[00:12:41] Uh-huh.

[00:12:42] And so they refused to test.

[00:12:43] 16?

[00:12:43] What's the age within canon?

[00:12:46] Oh, I think I'm 26 now.

[00:12:48] 26.

[00:12:48] But they were like, you're too old.

[00:12:50] Yeah.

[00:12:50] For mono.

[00:12:50] So they didn't want to test me.

[00:12:51] I had to like beg them to test me for mono.

[00:12:54] Yeah.

[00:12:54] The mono test came back positive on the like doctor online portal, but then they called

[00:12:58] me to confirm it.

[00:12:59] Mm-hmm.

[00:12:59] When they called me to confirm it, they said, and just checking your age is 13 years old?

[00:13:04] And I had to be like, no.

[00:13:06] And so they kept, they said like adult mono, which also really-

[00:13:09] Yeah.

[00:13:09] Made me laugh though.

[00:13:10] They're no different, I believe.

[00:13:11] Yeah.

[00:13:12] I mean, I think I got it when I was 20, 22?

[00:13:17] I think that's, I know most people who had it, had it in like college.

[00:13:20] Yeah.

[00:13:21] They treated me like I was geriatric.

[00:13:23] Yeah.

[00:13:24] Yeah.

[00:13:25] But it's a, you feel like a teenager.

[00:13:27] It's weird.

[00:13:28] Yeah.

[00:13:29] I got all like weak and sleepy.

[00:13:31] Yeah.

[00:13:32] And you're just kind of like, shut up.

[00:13:34] Mom, shut up.

[00:13:35] Yeah.

[00:13:36] My, well, my lymph nodes got really huge.

[00:13:38] I couldn't wear, I couldn't wear my glasses because my lymph nodes behind my ears got so

[00:13:42] big.

[00:13:42] Yeah.

[00:13:43] That my glasses didn't fit anymore.

[00:13:44] It was just all this stupid stuff.

[00:13:45] And so I just slept for all of July and I had no voice when I was first supposed to

[00:13:50] come on.

[00:13:50] Yes.

[00:13:50] Because of the sore throat.

[00:13:51] So I couldn't speak.

[00:13:52] I was silenced.

[00:13:53] Right.

[00:13:53] So then I, rudely.

[00:13:55] Yeah.

[00:13:55] By the mainstream media.

[00:13:56] Yeah.

[00:13:56] And your body.

[00:13:57] Mm-hmm.

[00:13:57] Uh, I said to David, maybe let's have Fran do a Twin Peaks return.

[00:14:03] Mm-hmm.

[00:14:03] Yeah.

[00:14:03] So that gives more time for recovery.

[00:14:05] I did not know you had not watched it.

[00:14:08] No.

[00:14:08] I mean, Lynch was a huge blind spot for me.

[00:14:10] In general.

[00:14:10] Everything that I've watched.

[00:14:12] Okay.

[00:14:12] Leading up to this has been the first time I've seen it.

[00:14:15] Yeah.

[00:14:16] At heart.

[00:14:17] That's true.

[00:14:18] Um, so you've watched all of Twin Peaks seasons one, two, and three, right?

[00:14:24] No.

[00:14:25] No, she said she hasn't watched.

[00:14:25] I have the five eps left.

[00:14:27] Yeah.

[00:14:27] No, I know.

[00:14:27] One and two.

[00:14:28] Yes.

[00:14:29] And then, right, all the way up to here.

[00:14:30] All the way up to here.

[00:14:31] Like, over the last few months.

[00:14:32] I watched Fire Walk With Me and I watched about half the films.

[00:14:35] Sure.

[00:14:36] Mm-hmm.

[00:14:36] I'll do the rest.

[00:14:37] Yeah.

[00:14:37] Whatever.

[00:14:38] No rush.

[00:14:38] Take your time.

[00:14:39] What are your general feelings on David Lynch as someone coming to this newly?

[00:14:44] Uh, he's not really one of my guys.

[00:14:47] But, um, and I'll be, and I don't have like a greater intellectual reason to say that.

[00:14:53] He, like, I had sort of put off getting into his stuff because it just never felt like it

[00:14:57] was going to be for me.

[00:15:00] Mm-hmm.

[00:15:00] Um, and I think the stuff that I've really gravitated towards in watching has been his

[00:15:06] most, like, ostensibly quote-unquote normal stuff.

[00:15:09] Like, Elephant Man is probably my favorite thing.

[00:15:11] I think Griffin is as well.

[00:15:13] That I've watched.

[00:15:13] But that's because it's austere and it reminds me of other stuff that I know that I like.

[00:15:18] Um, but the more that I get into Twin Peaks, the more I think about Lost, which is a fond

[00:15:25] time in my life.

[00:15:26] Yes.

[00:15:26] And I think I had this thing of, like, I really loved season one of Twin Peaks.

[00:15:32] Season two, I think, like a lot of people, I had a lot of fatigue and annoyance with.

[00:15:36] I liked the sort of first chunk.

[00:15:38] And then when it goes off, it really lost me.

[00:15:40] And then it only very kind of got me back.

[00:15:43] And then I really was feeling very down on Lynch.

[00:15:46] And then watching Fire Walk with me sort of brought me back really big.

[00:15:51] And I loved that.

[00:15:53] And so the return, I feel so completely, like, baffled by it.

[00:15:59] And I think it's appealing to both all the things that I liked about original Twin Peaks

[00:16:05] while also indulging in all the things of his stuff that doesn't really work for me.

[00:16:09] Interest me, yeah.

[00:16:10] I definitely, like, there's a, there's an odd thing.

[00:16:14] I mean, you've talked about David.

[00:16:17] And I remember seeing this kind of scuttlebutt online of, like, people's, some people's impatience

[00:16:24] with, like, when is Good Coop going to return and when is the show going to, like, actually start?

[00:16:29] The realization of...

[00:16:31] It's this the whole time.

[00:16:32] Right.

[00:16:33] Oh, so it's not, this isn't just some, like, preamble to us getting to Cooper is whole again

[00:16:39] and is solving crimes in Twin Peaks.

[00:16:40] It's like, no, no, no.

[00:16:41] The journey is the entire season, like, and that's the story being told here, right?

[00:16:45] Like, no one told you that in advance.

[00:16:48] So when it was happening, there was a lot of confusion.

[00:16:51] And yeah, we've talked about it.

[00:16:53] You know, it was crazy.

[00:16:54] I find it helpful that I'm watching this knowing that, like, having years to process secondhand,

[00:17:00] oh, I should not put any expectations onto this of what I think it's going to be

[00:17:04] and try to take it for what it is.

[00:17:06] I do definitely still, at this point, episode 13, like, three quarters of the way through it,

[00:17:13] feel like I don't really have any holistic handle.

[00:17:16] No, I feel like I have no handle on it whatsoever, but it's frustrating me less and exciting me more.

[00:17:23] And my memory of the show airing at the time was that I felt like I would come into the office

[00:17:27] days after an episode would air.

[00:17:29] At Fran Magazine.

[00:17:30] At Fran Magazine.

[00:17:31] And my editorial staff would be just, like, trying to explain it to each other.

[00:17:38] And it felt like when the adults are talking and Charlie Brown, where it's just like I

[00:17:41] couldn't process it out of context.

[00:17:43] But even now, I think having someone try to explain it to me would not make sense.

[00:17:48] And I'm watching it.

[00:17:49] Well, I'm going to try anyway.

[00:17:50] Yeah.

[00:17:50] Well, it's just sort of much more experiential than I realized and much less looking at actors

[00:17:58] who I once saw young and now they're old.

[00:18:01] But I always love that.

[00:18:03] I keep talking about it.

[00:18:04] I'm always a sucker for that.

[00:18:04] Jitalushi.

[00:18:05] Well, it's crazy.

[00:18:06] Well, I love him so much.

[00:18:07] Correct.

[00:18:08] But it's also crazy how many people are dead in this cast now.

[00:18:11] Yeah, sure.

[00:18:12] I mean, we're coming up on, I mean, it's seven years ago this show now, right?

[00:18:17] Yeah, but you have a handful of actors who died before it released where this is like

[00:18:21] their final statement and then just a lot of people.

[00:18:24] And some of it is just obviously like this was a show that had an older supporting cast

[00:18:30] to begin with three decades early.

[00:18:32] Who else are you thinking of who's dead?

[00:18:34] Keckner's still kicking.

[00:18:36] Keckner's kicking.

[00:18:37] Forrester, dead.

[00:18:38] Sizemore, dead.

[00:18:40] Coulson, dead.

[00:18:42] Right, Catherine Coulson?

[00:18:43] Am I getting them right?

[00:18:44] Yes.

[00:18:45] Yeah, I meant right.

[00:18:46] Miguel.

[00:18:47] Miguel.

[00:18:47] Yeah, well, those are the people, right, who died before the show came out.

[00:18:51] Yes.

[00:18:51] But Sizemore, of course, we lost him recently.

[00:18:54] I got really scared that Michael Antkina died and then I was like, oh, he's just retired.

[00:18:58] Yeah.

[00:18:58] Which I respect, to be clear.

[00:19:01] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:19:02] He's not dead as far as I know.

[00:19:05] I haven't checked in with him lately.

[00:19:06] Hold on, I'm going to do another dead count.

[00:19:08] This is like I do every, like once a month I check in and I'm like, let's take stock of

[00:19:13] how many original Toy Story cast members are dead.

[00:19:15] I want to have the active list and I feel like I need to do the same with Twin Peaks now.

[00:19:19] Do you need to do that with Toy Story?

[00:19:21] Is that like...

[00:19:21] Harley Ernie, Jim Varney.

[00:19:24] Those are the big two.

[00:19:26] Well, but I'm saying the list is growing.

[00:19:27] We still got Wally Shaw, or Rickles is...

[00:19:28] Rickles is gone.

[00:19:29] Estelle Harris is gone.

[00:19:30] When I say original, I mean...

[00:19:31] Is Rickles...

[00:19:32] Ratsenberg...

[00:19:33] Ratsenberg is still on.

[00:19:34] Ratsenberg is still on.

[00:19:34] Ned Beatty's gone.

[00:19:36] Well, sure.

[00:19:37] Well, it's Toy Story 3.

[00:19:38] I mean, he's not coming back.

[00:19:39] But I'm sort of like for Toy Story 5...

[00:19:40] Oh, I'm sorry.

[00:19:40] That doesn't count?

[00:19:41] No, I'm saying like for Toy Story 5...

[00:19:43] Sure.

[00:19:43] Will there be no Mr. Potato Head?

[00:19:45] It's a great question.

[00:19:46] Like what...

[00:19:47] Yeah.

[00:19:47] Do they start to kind of soft retire these characters?

[00:19:50] Because Estelle Harris was still alive, recorded new dialogue for 4, right?

[00:19:53] Yeah.

[00:19:53] Rickles, they scrapped the movie and started over so late that Rickles had never started recording.

[00:19:59] So they constructed his performance out of leftover takes of things he had done for like the theme parks and commercials and shit.

[00:20:07] Right.

[00:20:08] And in that movie, he just kind of makes like interjections from the side.

[00:20:11] Right.

[00:20:11] I'm always scared now that it's all just going to be like AI voice.

[00:20:14] That's my...

[00:20:15] Stuff.

[00:20:16] Right.

[00:20:16] Which makes me sad and depresses me.

[00:20:18] Especially with something like that where you're like...

[00:20:20] With the voices, they can kind of get away with it.

[00:20:22] But I'm like, Rickles, the curveball, you can't fake that, right?

[00:20:25] Or the fastball, let's say.

[00:20:26] The Rickles fastball, the delivery.

[00:20:28] You could get the voice.

[00:20:29] Maybe they can't fool us, but the executives, the shareholders might be tricked.

[00:20:35] I'm hoping they retire, the two of them.

[00:20:37] Yeah.

[00:20:37] Yeah, that'd be...

[00:20:38] I mean, I think that'd only be fair.

[00:20:41] Yes.

[00:20:41] Anyway, Twin Peaks, the return.

[00:20:43] I'm looking at the list.

[00:20:44] I'm trying to identify other people who have passed away.

[00:20:46] Go on, David.

[00:20:47] What did you make of episode 8, Fran, before we...

[00:20:49] Peggy Lipton.

[00:20:50] Oh, the crazy one.

[00:20:51] The crazy one, yes.

[00:20:52] Peggy Lipton passed away.

[00:20:54] She did.

[00:20:54] R.I.P. Peggy.

[00:20:55] Harry Dean Stanton passed away.

[00:20:56] He did.

[00:20:57] He was very old.

[00:20:58] He's one of those guys.

[00:20:59] I thought he was pretty young.

[00:21:00] He read young on screen.

[00:21:02] He looked...

[00:21:03] He looked...

[00:21:03] For the last 40 years, he seemed as young as anyone.

[00:21:06] Well, not to disagree with you guys, but he's one of those guys like Pete Possilway,

[00:21:10] where this guy's only ever been the oldest man who's ever in any room whatsoever.

[00:21:14] When you see him young, you're like...

[00:21:18] When you see him young, you're like, you know, you see him young and you're like, that's just

[00:21:20] a different person.

[00:21:21] That's not Harry Dean Stanton.

[00:21:22] Yeah.

[00:21:23] Like, the Harry Dean Stanton I know was 100 years old in Alien or whatever.

[00:21:28] Mm-hmm.

[00:21:30] The crazy episode...

[00:21:31] Honestly, you look at young Harry Dean Stanton, he looks really old.

[00:21:34] Yeah.

[00:21:34] He really did.

[00:21:35] He does.

[00:21:36] He was born old.

[00:21:36] He's pretty old here.

[00:21:38] He looks old.

[00:21:38] Yep.

[00:21:39] Yeah.

[00:21:40] So, episode eight, which we are drafting from...

[00:21:42] Like, you know, we're moving off to talk about this sequence of episodes.

[00:21:47] But episode eight is a break in format, and it has a big nuclear bomb and a bug and lots

[00:21:54] of crazy stuff.

[00:21:55] But a less complete break than I had been led to believe.

[00:21:58] It has 20 minutes of functioning like an almost normal episode before it then hard pivots.

[00:22:03] That's true.

[00:22:03] I was ready for it to be complete end-to-end standalone.

[00:22:07] Yeah.

[00:22:07] Yeah.

[00:22:07] I like thinking and drawing conclusions based on sort of visual evidence.

[00:22:12] So, I just love to be shown a bunch of stuff and be like, go think about it.

[00:22:15] Yeah.

[00:22:16] Think about what this is.

[00:22:17] So, you were locked in on that one.

[00:22:19] Yeah, totally.

[00:22:20] And I almost would prefer more of just sort of watching things come to life without back

[00:22:27] and forth dialogue a lot of the time, I think.

[00:22:30] But I remember...

[00:22:31] It's the only episode of this I remember when it aired in real time, just because I felt

[00:22:37] like everyone I knew was going completely insane.

[00:22:39] It tried to make sense of it and reckoning with it being one of like the great modern

[00:22:45] episodes of television.

[00:22:47] But it's certainly not like anything I've ever seen, quote unquote, on TV.

[00:22:50] I'm sure you guys are getting into the weeds about, is this a movie or is it a TV show?

[00:22:54] I just, I so fundamentally think it is not.

[00:22:57] A movie?

[00:22:58] Yeah.

[00:22:58] Yeah.

[00:22:58] I mean, I totally agree with you.

[00:23:00] But...

[00:23:00] Like, for me to accept that argument, he would need to re-edit it into one 18-hour work.

[00:23:06] Like, I just, I think even though the show does not have some strict, like, episode format

[00:23:13] that it conforms to every time, I'm like, there is a shape to the hour cycle.

[00:23:18] There is.

[00:23:19] And they end, you know, with music and so on and so forth.

[00:23:22] Right.

[00:23:22] I'm like, that alone just makes it feel like he is aware of, like, this is intended to

[00:23:26] be seen in one hour blocks.

[00:23:27] And that alone makes it a TV show, not a movie to me.

[00:23:30] Yeah.

[00:23:30] And I also think Fire Walk With Me actually does really feel like a movie, even though it

[00:23:34] has these, like, two parts.

[00:23:36] Yes.

[00:23:36] But that feels much more largely cinematic in form and shape.

[00:23:41] Yes.

[00:23:41] I think, um, I mean, for one, I think the whole is it a movie, you know, it becomes this exhausting

[00:23:48] debate that where you're kind of like, you know, why are we fighting about this when we could

[00:23:52] just be talking about it, right?

[00:23:54] You know, but I initially was very not into the, you know, it's a big long movie thing

[00:24:00] because I was like, that just feels insulting or sort of, you know, disdainful of the television

[00:24:09] format, which is a great storytelling format.

[00:24:11] There's something backhanded to this notion of like, this is so good that it doesn't deserve

[00:24:15] to be called TV.

[00:24:16] Right.

[00:24:16] And I'm like, that's rude to TV.

[00:24:18] And also TV has its own power.

[00:24:19] Well, I was going to say, watching this is making me nostalgic for when TV felt really

[00:24:22] good.

[00:24:23] And...

[00:24:24] Yeah.

[00:24:24] Absolutely.

[00:24:24] I didn't watch this at the time of airing, but I watched what I felt like was the other

[00:24:28] really big 2017 thing, correct me if I'm wrong, which was The Leftovers ended that year,

[00:24:34] which felt to me quite seismic and like something that has not really been replicated.

[00:24:39] What year does Mad Men end?

[00:24:41] Mad Men probably ends around then too.

[00:24:43] Yeah.

[00:24:43] Mad Men ended 2015.

[00:24:44] Okay.

[00:24:45] Yeah.

[00:24:45] Jesus, Mad Men ended nine years.

[00:24:46] To me, Breaking Bad and The Leftovers, Breaking Bad to me is like kind of the last of the quote

[00:24:52] unquote golden age of TV.

[00:24:54] Not that it ended sooner than Mad Men.

[00:24:56] It was like 2013.

[00:24:57] 2013 or whatever.

[00:24:58] But like, and then like stuff like The Leftovers and Halt and Catch Fire and stuff, which is

[00:25:03] amazing, feels like somewhat like where it's like, it was a little less ubiquitous.

[00:25:08] There was more TV at that point.

[00:25:09] So the zone was more flooded.

[00:25:10] People weren't talking about like focusing on like a show at a time.

[00:25:14] During that like real boom time, it really felt like it's like Mad Men.

[00:25:18] We're all sitting down on Sunday night and watching Mad Men.

[00:25:21] That doesn't happen anymore at all.

[00:25:23] No.

[00:25:23] Right?

[00:25:24] Yeah.

[00:25:25] But I feel like I cut you off a little bit, but the whole thing about the way in which he

[00:25:29] wrote this and shot this leading, you know, some argument to the idea that it's a little

[00:25:35] bit more of a movie than TV.

[00:25:37] I'm like, that's negated by then how he like packages it.

[00:25:41] Even if creatively it came out in a burst as sort of like one big thing rather than being

[00:25:47] written or shot as intentional episodes.

[00:25:50] Right.

[00:25:50] I was going to say-

[00:25:51] The second he edits them as such.

[00:25:53] The only, right.

[00:25:54] The only argument I eventually sort of understood that distinguishes it a little bit right is

[00:26:01] that he did kind of make it as this one big chunk and he kind of cut it up later and he,

[00:26:07] you know, broke a lot of the rules of TV.

[00:26:11] We talked about it already.

[00:26:13] You know, how actors are used, right?

[00:26:14] Where it's like they might drop in for like one second in an episode.

[00:26:17] That's crazy.

[00:26:17] You know, like, so yeah, it's a little different, but I still think, yeah, fundamentally,

[00:26:21] this is episodic television.

[00:26:22] We watched it weekly.

[00:26:23] I watched it weekly.

[00:26:24] It was a great way to experience it because it's a great way to experience good TV.

[00:26:29] Yeah.

[00:26:29] Like, and it's different.

[00:26:30] I think more shows could benefit from having-

[00:26:33] And that's fine.

[00:26:33] A very famous person show up for two minutes and that's that.

[00:26:37] Yeah.

[00:26:37] That would be cool.

[00:26:39] Disclaimer is the Quarantra.

[00:26:40] Is that what it's called?

[00:26:41] That's right.

[00:26:41] Yeah.

[00:26:42] So I was talking to my brother about it who was very frustrated watching it.

[00:26:44] I have not watched it.

[00:26:45] I've heard, I know almost nothing about that show.

[00:26:48] I've heard a lot of frustration about it or like sort of gotten waves of, you know,

[00:26:52] hearing bad vibes.

[00:26:53] Yes.

[00:26:54] And that's the thing where Quarant was like, I kind of think of it more as a six hour movie.

[00:26:57] I had originally tried to adapt this book as a movie and then it became a TV show,

[00:27:01] but I really think of it as a movie and I've thought about recutting as a movie.

[00:27:04] All that sort of stuff.

[00:27:05] Right.

[00:27:06] And my brother Jamesy's big complaint was he was like, episodes just end and then the

[00:27:10] next episode starts at the immediate following scene.

[00:27:13] And it really just feels like he made a six hour movie, put credits-

[00:27:17] Which is, I hate that.

[00:27:18] At the hour mark.

[00:27:19] And I'm like, well, that feels sloppier to me of a guy kind of trying to avoid what

[00:27:23] television is as a format.

[00:27:24] And that's the worst thing about the bloaty, you know, post-Golden Age streaming era of

[00:27:29] TV where these people were like, I want to make this movie.

[00:27:31] And they're like, no.

[00:27:32] And they're like, could it just be a bloated television show?

[00:27:34] And they're like, of course.

[00:27:35] Yes, please.

[00:27:35] We'd love that.

[00:27:36] You know, like.

[00:27:37] But we talked about in episode eight that when they like cut to the Nine Inch Nails

[00:27:40] performance at like minute 15, you're like, oh, interesting.

[00:27:43] They're fucking with the format that I've gotten used to.

[00:27:45] And then even episode 13 of this has the musical performance.

[00:27:49] You're waiting for starring Kyle MacLachlan to come up.

[00:27:52] And then instead that plays over Big Ed eating like instant lunch, right?

[00:27:56] Yeah.

[00:27:57] That alone is like he's owning the medium of this is being watched in one hour increments.

[00:28:02] And I'm playing with your expectations of what happens in that one hour.

[00:28:05] And like playing with trying to force patterns upon it and understanding upon it and all of that,

[00:28:12] which says to me it is intended to be watched this way.

[00:28:16] Yeah.

[00:28:16] And I'm like if Lynch wanted to do a like 17 hour marathon, 18 hour marathon screening of this show,

[00:28:22] I'd imagine he'd be like, let me recut it.

[00:28:26] So it plays 18 hours rather than just like as if it were Netflix autoplay.

[00:28:31] Right.

[00:28:31] Right.

[00:28:32] And then I'd be open to that being considered a movie.

[00:28:35] Right.

[00:28:35] Yeah.

[00:28:36] I agree.

[00:28:37] Okay.

[00:28:38] We all agree.

[00:28:38] Great.

[00:28:39] But no, no one's ever going to, well, I shouldn't say ever, but like I don't think anyone's

[00:28:45] really ever going to sit down and watch this in a movie theater.

[00:28:47] No.

[00:28:48] So, you know, can't that kind of be the most important conversation here?

[00:28:54] Like even the fucking Made in America thing.

[00:28:57] Yeah.

[00:28:57] The OJ documentary.

[00:28:59] Yes.

[00:28:59] Which was a television show, but was treated as a movie and released as a movie and won an

[00:29:03] Oscar and all that stuff.

[00:29:04] But also felt like a breaking point conversationally where it's like, do we need to redefine the

[00:29:08] rules?

[00:29:08] But that did screen in cinemas.

[00:29:11] Yes.

[00:29:11] You could go see it.

[00:29:12] And I heard that worked very well as an experience.

[00:29:15] Yes.

[00:29:15] So, you know, maybe I should just go fuck myself.

[00:29:18] But I think if you were to see an 18 hour screening of this, you'd be like, yeah, it's a weird

[00:29:22] experience watching 18 episodes of television in a movie theater.

[00:29:25] It wouldn't feel like I watched an 18 hour movie.

[00:29:28] Uh, right.

[00:29:29] Um, but okay.

[00:29:30] Twin Peaks.

[00:29:31] Ben, do you have anything you want to say before we begin discussing these episodes?

[00:29:36] Did they hit you any particular way?

[00:29:37] No.

[00:29:38] Wow.

[00:29:39] Great.

[00:29:39] All right.

[00:29:45] Griffin.

[00:29:46] Oh, wait, no, this is me.

[00:29:47] I'm just doing a solo ad read.

[00:29:48] Listen, uh, this time of year, people are saying, uh, ho, ho, ho.

[00:29:52] Merry Christmas.

[00:29:54] Or ha, ha, ha.

[00:29:56] Happy Hanukkah or happy holidays.

[00:29:57] I guess it works for both.

[00:29:58] But what I want to encourage people to say is mo, mo, mo.

[00:30:03] Merry movies.

[00:30:04] Yeah.

[00:30:05] Because this is Blank Check with Griffin David.

[00:30:06] We love movies and we are so excited that our friends at Regal are continuing to support

[00:30:12] the show because if you sign up for Regal Unlimited, which of course is the all you can

[00:30:17] watch movie subscription pass that pays for itself in just two visits.

[00:30:21] That's one Glickid, one no Sonic Ferratu, one double feature you paid for your visit.

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[00:30:41] You're still saying the mo, mo, mo, Merry movies thing, but you have snacks in your mouth.

[00:30:45] The point is members get 10% off of all non-alcoholic concession items.

[00:30:50] So if you're planning to see two movies this month, Regal Unlimited just makes sense.

[00:30:55] Here's what you do.

[00:30:56] You sign up now in the Regal app or at the link in the description and use code blank check.

[00:31:02] Now, I know what you're saying.

[00:31:02] Oh, God, I've heard a lot of Regal ads before.

[00:31:04] I get it.

[00:31:05] I know what he's offering.

[00:31:06] 10% off your three month subscription.

[00:31:08] Wrong.

[00:31:09] Holiday special.

[00:31:11] 20% off if you use code blank check.

[00:31:15] This is unprecedented.

[00:31:17] 20% off.

[00:31:19] Now, I'm trying to answer your questions before you ask them.

[00:31:22] What if you already have a subscription?

[00:31:25] What if you don't live in an area with a lot of Regals?

[00:31:27] Here's the thing to think about.

[00:31:29] You got anyone in your life who loves movies?

[00:31:32] You looking for a gift?

[00:31:34] Regal Unlimited subscription.

[00:31:37] 20% off.

[00:31:39] Code blank check.

[00:31:41] And I want to say this as well.

[00:31:43] We've been doing a lot of work behind the scenes to evolve our strategy with advertising on this show.

[00:31:49] To both, hopefully, make a more enjoyable listening experience for all of you.

[00:31:55] And to keep everyone happy and paid at Blank Check Productions.

[00:31:59] And a big part of that is us being really excited about partnerships like our friends at Regal.

[00:32:04] That feel very on topic of what we do on this podcast.

[00:32:08] And feels like a great opportunity to encourage people to take up an offer to go see movies.

[00:32:14] A thing I imagine a lot of our listeners really want to do.

[00:32:17] So if you're looking for a way to say thanks and show support for the podcast, this would be a really helpful thing to do.

[00:32:23] Thank you very much.

[00:32:24] And one last time.

[00:32:26] Mo Mo Mo.

[00:32:27] Merry movies.

[00:32:34] Part 9.

[00:32:36] This is the chair.

[00:32:38] Is the name of the episode, sort of.

[00:32:42] They all have these kind of pseudo names.

[00:32:44] Where did the episode titles come from?

[00:32:46] Because this is like my experience of being like a Simpsons obsessed kid.

[00:32:51] Where the episodes had no title within the episode.

[00:32:54] And then you'd read like the fucking compendium guide.

[00:32:56] And you'd be like, that's what it's called?

[00:32:58] In a pre-DVD streaming era where you weren't pulling titles.

[00:33:02] Yeah.

[00:33:02] You know?

[00:33:03] Yeah.

[00:33:03] Yeah.

[00:33:05] They are technically just by letters, by numbers, but they do all have these sort of pseudo subtitles.

[00:33:11] But where were those titles, were those only released for the first time on like, okay.

[00:33:15] I don't know when they were released.

[00:33:16] TV Guide?

[00:33:17] Yeah.

[00:33:18] On the fucking disc menus?

[00:33:21] Are they on the disc menus?

[00:33:22] You can tell me.

[00:33:22] I think they are.

[00:33:23] I think it says part 9, this is the chair or whatever.

[00:33:26] But I feel like on the episodes themselves, it just says part number.

[00:33:29] Right?

[00:33:30] It does.

[00:33:30] Yeah.

[00:33:33] So in this episode, do you guys want to tell me what happens?

[00:33:37] Way to pass the buck, David.

[00:33:40] Tim Roth is in the mix.

[00:33:41] I'm looking.

[00:33:42] All right.

[00:33:42] So it's like we're post episode 8.

[00:33:45] We've got the doppelganger is alive.

[00:33:48] You know, Mr. C has not died.

[00:33:50] They stitch him up.

[00:33:51] Right.

[00:33:52] He gets stitched up by Tim Roth and Jennifer Jason Leigh.

[00:33:58] What do we think of them?

[00:34:00] Hutch and Chantel.

[00:34:01] Have we talked about them yet on this podcast?

[00:34:04] No.

[00:34:04] They're kind of new, right?

[00:34:05] I don't believe so.

[00:34:06] Yeah.

[00:34:07] Right.

[00:34:07] This is where they're introduced.

[00:34:09] Well, we met Chantel.

[00:34:11] She's briefly in two.

[00:34:12] Yeah.

[00:34:12] Yeah.

[00:34:12] So two.

[00:34:13] Right.

[00:34:14] You know, it's kind of like getting LeBron James to play pickup basketball with you or

[00:34:18] whatever.

[00:34:18] It's like, who's going to play like two criminal lowlifes for me?

[00:34:20] It's like, can we just get Tim Roth and Jennifer Jason Leigh?

[00:34:23] Right.

[00:34:23] Where it's like, well, yeah, they've done that a million times.

[00:34:26] It's like, yeah, but they'll be good.

[00:34:28] Right.

[00:34:29] And they are.

[00:34:29] Yes.

[00:34:30] Yes.

[00:34:30] Like, because a lot of the character actors and the scumbags in this season are these

[00:34:35] faces you don't really know where you're like, wow, that guy has a really cool face.

[00:34:39] And like that, you know, that guy's got crazy hair and I've never seen him before.

[00:34:42] But this is kind of shorthanded casting where it's not just the look.

[00:34:45] You're like, oh, I can like carry over and extrapolate from the history of other

[00:34:49] characters these people have played.

[00:34:51] Yeah.

[00:34:51] Yeah.

[00:34:52] But yeah, so they're there and they're around for, you know, for the whole rest of

[00:35:00] the season.

[00:35:00] They're sort of popping in and out.

[00:35:01] Like, this is not like one off.

[00:35:03] Yeah.

[00:35:03] The other big thing, I guess.

[00:35:06] It's the text message.

[00:35:07] Is the text message.

[00:35:08] Patrick Fishler kind of activating.

[00:35:10] Right.

[00:35:10] The dinner table, the conversation is lively.

[00:35:12] Mr. C sends this text message.

[00:35:14] All right.

[00:35:15] We're seeing that they're connected in some way.

[00:35:18] And then, right.

[00:35:19] Dougie has thwarted the attack, right?

[00:35:23] Yes.

[00:35:23] From the crazy assassin, Ike the Spike.

[00:35:25] Use his proper name.

[00:35:27] Ike the Spike.

[00:35:28] Thank you.

[00:35:29] They're doing their ensuing investigation, Koechner and Eric Edelstein and the third guy,

[00:35:36] where they discover that Dougie has no history before like 1997.

[00:35:42] Right.

[00:35:44] He basically seems to have been invented out of whole cloth in 1997.

[00:35:49] These brothers seem like they have fun.

[00:35:52] Oh, totally.

[00:35:53] I kind of like, I'm an only child.

[00:35:54] And this, I was like, man, I wish I had some goofy brothers.

[00:35:58] Wait, which brothers are you talking about?

[00:35:59] Koechner.

[00:36:00] Right, right.

[00:36:01] And what's his name?

[00:36:03] You know.

[00:36:04] Eric Edelstein.

[00:36:05] Eric Edelstein.

[00:36:06] And then Larry Clark is around there too, right?

[00:36:08] He's the other one.

[00:36:09] Yeah.

[00:36:09] Not kids Larry Clark.

[00:36:11] No.

[00:36:11] Thank you for clarifying.

[00:36:13] Eric Edelstein.

[00:36:14] What do I know him best from?

[00:36:17] Green Room?

[00:36:19] Yeah.

[00:36:19] I like Green Room.

[00:36:21] I forgot he's in that though.

[00:36:23] He's in Jurassic World?

[00:36:25] Okay, he must get eaten by a raptor or something.

[00:36:27] Yeah, I believe that's exactly what happened.

[00:36:29] Maybe he gets eaten by the iRex.

[00:36:32] I guess he's just done a time.

[00:36:33] He's a comedian guy?

[00:36:34] Who is this?

[00:36:35] He's a comedy guy.

[00:36:36] I just know this face.

[00:36:36] He's been on Doughboys several times.

[00:36:38] Wow.

[00:36:38] He's a great Doughboys guest.

[00:36:40] Right.

[00:36:40] That's right.

[00:36:40] Okay.

[00:36:41] I knew I knew the name.

[00:36:42] He's been on the Jurassic World.

[00:36:44] Okay.

[00:36:45] He's the voice of one of the Wee Bear Bears.

[00:36:47] I think he's also now Daddy Shark on the Baby Shark cartoon show.

[00:36:51] There's a Baby Shark cartoon show?

[00:36:52] Oh, I thought you were saying Shark Tank.

[00:36:53] I was like, I didn't know there was a parent.

[00:36:56] He's Mark Cuban's dad.

[00:36:58] They'll be negotiating a deal and then they'll cut to a giant cartoon shark in a tank going,

[00:37:05] I approve.

[00:37:07] Yeah.

[00:37:07] They should have that.

[00:37:08] He's like the banker on Deal or No Deal.

[00:37:11] Yeah.

[00:37:11] I have a new business opportunity, but I don't know if I'm ready to.

[00:37:14] That was the panic that set into your eyes when I told you there was a Baby Shark cartoon

[00:37:18] show.

[00:37:18] What's your business opportunity?

[00:37:20] I don't want someone to steal it.

[00:37:22] People, listeners have to promise not to take it.

[00:37:23] You're saving it for the sharks.

[00:37:25] Yeah.

[00:37:25] Maybe I'll save it for the sharks.

[00:37:26] It is really good though.

[00:37:27] Is it really?

[00:37:28] What?

[00:37:28] Okay.

[00:37:29] Don't you think there should.

[00:37:30] If all of our listeners promise not to steal it.

[00:37:32] Copyright Fraenhofer.

[00:37:33] Okay.

[00:37:34] Okay.

[00:37:34] Phil and I came up with this together.

[00:37:36] There should be artisanal slime for adults.

[00:37:41] And it should be like how adult flavors are now like yuzu, huckleberry.

[00:37:47] So you're saying high-end scents?

[00:37:49] High-end scents.

[00:37:50] Yeah.

[00:37:50] Maybe organic textures.

[00:37:52] You say it's made out of organic shit.

[00:37:53] Who cares if it is or isn't?

[00:37:55] Nobody's checking.

[00:37:56] This is a huge gap in the slime market.

[00:37:59] Bespoke slime for distracted adults who just want the new version of a fidget spinner or whatever.

[00:38:04] I was going to say.

[00:38:05] Yeah, but it has to be elevated.

[00:38:06] We went from fidget toys to like more mature fidget toys so adults didn't feel embarrassed to be using fidget toys.

[00:38:12] We need the slime equivalent of that basically.

[00:38:14] That feels like something TikTok would show me ads for.

[00:38:17] And I would be like, why the fuck am I on this app?

[00:38:20] And then we read an article a year from now and everyone's angry and they're like, Fran made how much off of this?

[00:38:25] It should be good, right?

[00:38:26] Fran sold her slime business for that much money to Satan himself?

[00:38:30] Penske Media?

[00:38:31] Wait, they're the same company?

[00:38:34] Okay.

[00:38:34] That's a great call.

[00:38:36] We got on that by Eric Edelstein being in the Baby Shark Show, which my daughter must never learn about.

[00:38:40] Because we've escaped Baby Shark.

[00:38:41] And you escaped Minions, right?

[00:38:43] I haven't yet gotten there.

[00:38:45] I'm worried that's just so overstimulating.

[00:38:50] I'm just curious that if you don't.

[00:38:52] Movies seem very loud and overstimulating to me.

[00:38:54] To you or to her?

[00:38:54] To me.

[00:38:55] She hasn't seen them yet.

[00:38:56] I'm just like, I feel like that's a lot.

[00:38:58] I'm just like, when would a child learn about the Minions if they haven't seen the movie?

[00:39:01] The second she sees one, there will be questions.

[00:39:04] I have no doubt.

[00:39:05] How has she stepped foot in a grocery store without seeing one?

[00:39:09] I mean, she hasn't stepped foot in a ton of grocery stores is, I guess, the answer.

[00:39:12] Must be nice.

[00:39:13] I mean, I'm not sending her out to do the weekly shop.

[00:39:17] And why not?

[00:39:17] Just take a shift.

[00:39:18] I mean, whenever she is in a grocery store.

[00:39:20] Park Slope Co-op.

[00:39:21] Yeah.

[00:39:21] I don't belong to the Park Slope Co-op yet.

[00:39:23] Who knows?

[00:39:24] Maybe I will one day.

[00:39:26] But whenever she goes in one, she loves it because she's like, I want that.

[00:39:30] Yeah.

[00:39:31] Pointing at just name and item.

[00:39:33] She's just like us.

[00:39:33] Fun and not.

[00:39:34] Right.

[00:39:34] Exactly.

[00:39:36] But I was thinking of maybe showing her Ice Age.

[00:39:39] Oh, sure.

[00:39:40] Because that seems like, that's a pretty chill movie, right?

[00:39:43] There's not a lot of parallel.

[00:39:44] I thought it was true.

[00:39:45] Well, I'm not talking quality wise.

[00:39:47] I'm just talking like it's about a bunch of animals.

[00:39:49] No, I'm just saying I can't speak to the manicness of three, four, five.

[00:39:53] But it seems less manic to me than something like the Minions sort of world.

[00:39:58] First one's like rock solid.

[00:40:00] The first Ice Age.

[00:40:01] Yes.

[00:40:01] Yeah, because it's animals with a baby.

[00:40:03] It's not profound art, but it is like rock solid family entertainment.

[00:40:07] I forgot they had a baby.

[00:40:08] I'm just remembering.

[00:40:09] That's the weird thing.

[00:40:09] The first one is just like three men and a baby with.

[00:40:12] With Leary, Romano, and Leguizamo.

[00:40:16] Right.

[00:40:16] And it's like, oh, we don't know what to do here.

[00:40:18] And then the mammoth's kind of an Eeyore.

[00:40:20] And Leguizamo's kind of like, eh.

[00:40:22] And Leary is like, geez, these guys.

[00:40:24] And it's very much about like the uneasy balance between the humans and the animals in this time.

[00:40:30] He was like, the Tabor-toothed tiger is just occasionally like 9-11 was fucked up though.

[00:40:34] And you're like, it was.

[00:40:35] I completely agree with you, Dennis.

[00:40:37] No, 2002.

[00:40:38] And it happened.

[00:40:38] Yeah.

[00:40:39] It was fresh.

[00:40:39] Well, I just meant during the Ice Age.

[00:40:41] Well, Fran is right.

[00:40:42] Oh, well, that's true.

[00:40:43] It's not future Ice Age.

[00:40:44] No, but maybe he could just kind of break the fourth wall.

[00:40:46] He could be like, 9-11 is going to happen.

[00:40:48] Yeah.

[00:40:49] And it's going to be bad.

[00:40:50] Right.

[00:40:51] Dennis Leary will be, yeah.

[00:40:52] The first one is very much like the uneasy relationship between humans and animals.

[00:40:57] And it feels like the Ice Age is coming to an end rapidly.

[00:41:03] And then the movies were hits and they were like, we're basically going to ignore that humans exist forever.

[00:41:08] Right.

[00:41:08] And every movie is us kicking the can on an extension of it.

[00:41:11] Yes.

[00:41:12] We're just keeping it in the Ice Age, baby.

[00:41:13] Right.

[00:41:14] Ice Age, baby.

[00:41:15] Okay.

[00:41:15] Um, so, okay.

[00:41:16] So, uh, you have the fun cops.

[00:41:19] The cops are cute.

[00:41:20] The, um...

[00:41:21] Are they supposed to be brothers?

[00:41:22] They are brothers.

[00:41:23] They are.

[00:41:24] Okay.

[00:41:25] And, um, we have a sequence, right, where Andy and Lucy are looking at chairs.

[00:41:31] Occasional kind of interludes, I think, with them.

[00:41:33] Just maybe out of some respect for the audience that doesn't just want, like, Las Vegas murderers and, like...

[00:41:40] It's just for me.

[00:41:40] But, you know, it's Lucy literally just toggling between two color options on a chair.

[00:41:45] Uh, and then them having a bit of a fight over it.

[00:41:48] I really turned on them in season two.

[00:41:50] Interesting.

[00:41:51] In what way?

[00:41:52] Uh, just that storyline is so drawn out.

[00:41:54] Such that...

[00:41:55] The kid.

[00:41:55] Yeah, the paternity stuff.

[00:41:57] Wally.

[00:41:57] Um, I love Wally.

[00:41:59] You loved Wally when he came back in The Return?

[00:42:02] Yeah, and was weird.

[00:42:04] As many characters are in the show.

[00:42:06] But, uh, yeah, whenever they're sort of on their shit,

[00:42:09] I'm sort of tuning out.

[00:42:10] Um...

[00:42:11] But I know what it's like to try to buy a chair.

[00:42:13] And it's hard.

[00:42:14] I did think it was capturing a very specific modern phenomenon of endlessly toggling back

[00:42:22] between two options on a website and not knowing which to pull the trigger on.

[00:42:27] Yeah.

[00:42:28] So much of this...

[00:42:28] The analysis paralysis of, like...

[00:42:30] So much of this feels, like, much more engaged with how weird technology is than...

[00:42:36] The original and what we can and can't do with a computer or a phone.

[00:42:41] Right.

[00:42:42] And sometimes it's just...

[00:42:43] It's crazy you can do this.

[00:42:45] Look at two different chairs.

[00:42:46] Yeah.

[00:42:47] Yeah.

[00:42:47] Uh, it's also like that thing of you write out a word a bunch of times and suddenly it

[00:42:53] feels like you're spelling the word wrong.

[00:42:55] Anyway, you know what I'm talking about.

[00:42:56] Uh, we have a brief check-in with Johnny.

[00:42:58] Um, Johnny Horn.

[00:43:00] Mm-hmm.

[00:43:01] Uh, who has been played by various, you know, actors over the years.

[00:43:04] He's played by a new character here.

[00:43:06] But has this become this kind of...

[00:43:07] Like, he's wearing this protective gear and, like, whatever.

[00:43:12] You know, he's...

[00:43:12] His condition has only deteriorated further.

[00:43:15] Uh-huh.

[00:43:16] He's running...

[00:43:17] He runs around his mom.

[00:43:18] It's just a weird check-in with a character you might have forgotten existed.

[00:43:21] I completely forgot about.

[00:43:22] I forgot he existed.

[00:43:22] Exactly.

[00:43:23] Yes.

[00:43:23] Um, okay.

[00:43:25] And then we have, uh...

[00:43:27] They go to visit, uh, uh, Widow Briggs.

[00:43:29] Yes.

[00:43:30] Bobby, et cetera.

[00:43:32] Frank and Hawk go to see, uh, um, her name is Betty Briggs, of course.

[00:43:37] Yeah, to be like, your husband seems to be dead and possibly involved with something.

[00:43:43] We found the Bobby.

[00:43:44] And she gives them this...

[00:43:45] I saw this in a dream.

[00:43:45] I was told someday you'd come to speak to me.

[00:43:48] Right, right, right.

[00:43:48] Classic Briggs shit.

[00:43:50] This cylinder hidden in the back of a chair.

[00:43:53] It's so cool.

[00:43:54] I kind of wish I had secrets I could hide for people to eventually discover.

[00:44:00] You can do that.

[00:44:00] You can do that.

[00:44:01] That's within your power.

[00:44:01] You could do that right now.

[00:44:04] You could even leave messages in this podcast...

[00:44:06] Yeah, for later.

[00:44:07] ...for future, like, people to try and understand.

[00:44:11] You can foretell things.

[00:44:12] It wasn't me.

[00:44:15] That's really smart.

[00:44:16] I'm gonna go buy a shaggy record.

[00:44:18] That's gonna absolve him of everything.

[00:44:20] He said it on the record.

[00:44:21] Now they can't pin anything on him.

[00:44:23] It would just be funny.

[00:44:24] I mean, you're literally someone who buries things canonically.

[00:44:27] Yeah.

[00:44:27] It's true.

[00:44:27] So, like, people would start to be like, did Ben bury something else?

[00:44:30] And, like, we haven't found it yet.

[00:44:32] And, like, if I analyze everything he ever said, will I, you know, figure out what it is?

[00:44:36] Yeah.

[00:44:37] I definitely didn't do any kind of burial in California.

[00:44:42] Well...

[00:44:42] Okay.

[00:44:42] Right.

[00:44:43] That's one clue.

[00:44:44] Mm-hmm.

[00:44:45] State of California.

[00:45:02] So, and what's...

[00:45:03] And, right, the big twist, of course, is that Diane gets the creepy text message.

[00:45:08] Mm-hmm.

[00:45:10] Yeah, we do also...

[00:45:11] Right.

[00:45:11] We have the...

[00:45:12] That is where Jerry is talking to his foot still.

[00:45:16] Mm-hmm.

[00:45:16] This is sort of an...

[00:45:17] This episode doesn't have a lot of action, I feel like.

[00:45:21] It's mostly spooling things up again, right?

[00:45:25] Mm-hmm.

[00:45:25] I think it's important to point out that William Hastings is revealed to be an alternate dimension blogger.

[00:45:34] Yes, right.

[00:45:35] That's the thing.

[00:45:35] We have sort of the resolution, to some extent, of William Hastings, who is the Matthew Lillard character,

[00:45:42] Mm-hmm.

[00:45:43] who is...

[00:45:44] who dies during this...

[00:45:47] This set of episodes.

[00:45:49] That we're talking about.

[00:45:50] His head do explode.

[00:45:50] I was so happy to see him come back.

[00:45:52] You were happy to see him come back?

[00:45:54] So dismayed, yeah, because I thought we were done.

[00:45:56] Done with Lillard.

[00:45:57] He's so fucking good.

[00:45:59] He delights me.

[00:46:00] I'm just always so happy to see him pop up.

[00:46:01] Right, so this is where he's being interrogated, and he's basically like,

[00:46:05] Yeah, look, man, I'm a blogger.

[00:46:06] There's weird shit going on.

[00:46:07] I didn't know what was, you know, when I was opening up here.

[00:46:10] It was funny that it's like, yes, we were having an affair because of my blog.

[00:46:14] Right.

[00:46:15] Which doesn't really happen anymore, I feel.

[00:46:18] You don't think there's blog affairs?

[00:46:19] Not with the gutting of media in our modern day.

[00:46:23] This is what they took from us.

[00:46:26] But right, they are the string leading to Briggs.

[00:46:29] That's basically their purpose in the overall story.

[00:46:33] Yes.

[00:46:34] That they kind of encountered the major in some way when they were investigating the zone, right?

[00:46:40] This like alternate dimension that he vanished into.

[00:46:43] I read a really good profile on Lillard recently.

[00:46:47] I know we talked about him a lot in the first chunk of episodes on Return.

[00:46:52] Uh-huh.

[00:46:53] And I was saying like my confusion about how it felt like he had this early 2010s, like he's starting to get back out there and interesting supporting parts, and then it didn't totally stick.

[00:47:03] And then now it feels like it is weirdly sticking post Five Nights at Freddy's.

[00:47:07] Right, he's in that.

[00:47:08] He's hot again.

[00:47:09] Mm-hmm.

[00:47:10] Yeah, but I'm like after Descendants, like hearing people loved him on this.

[00:47:15] There was a moment where he was in like trouble with the curve, and like he was in a couple other things where you're like, are people starting to value Lillard again?

[00:47:21] And he basically said that in the early 2010s, he like hit a wall, was like really cynical and angry about like that his movie star status had not maintained.

[00:47:34] And was in that position that a lot of people get in where they're like, I'm so desperate to hold on to being number one on the call sheet that I hold on to that in increasingly worse and worse projects.

[00:47:45] Where he's in like the direct-to-video Nims Island sequel and shit.

[00:47:49] And then he like called his reps and was like, I'm gonna downscale, I'm gonna sell my house, I'm gonna move into a smaller home, I'm gonna like change my lifestyle, I want to be an actor.

[00:47:59] Your job is to find me good parts to do.

[00:48:01] I don't care about my status, I wanna like re-engage with what I like about acting.

[00:48:06] Okay, but do you know who the star of Return to Nims Island was?

[00:48:09] Isn't it Steve Irwin's daughter?

[00:48:11] What the hell is Nims Island?

[00:48:13] Is this like rats of Nims?

[00:48:14] Exactly.

[00:48:14] This is the fucking direct-to-video sequel on a movie you don't even remember existed, the original.

[00:48:19] The original was a 2008 children's adventure starring Abigail Breslin and Jodie Foster called Nims Island.

[00:48:26] And Gerard Butler.

[00:48:28] Jerry Butler's in it.

[00:48:29] Is he the villain or is he a dad?

[00:48:32] I think Nims Island is a weird kind of like children's romancing the stone thing where she is an author.

[00:48:39] Who writes adventure books but then she gets caught in a real adventure and Gerard Butler is the projection of her fictional character.

[00:48:46] Like he's like a fake Indiana Jones.

[00:48:49] Well, I'm not gonna check.

[00:48:50] I'm getting Peanuts kind of parents sounds right now.

[00:48:53] It's weird.

[00:48:54] What I'm saying is that like only seven years before this, Matthew Lillard was doing that.

[00:48:59] Yeah.

[00:49:00] But now he's doing good?

[00:49:01] I hope he's doing good.

[00:49:02] I mean, I only want happiness for him, right?

[00:49:03] He's not like a...

[00:49:04] He hasn't done something...

[00:49:06] No, he seems like a lovely guy.

[00:49:06] Right.

[00:49:06] He has like a big crypto position that I don't know about, right?

[00:49:09] Right.

[00:49:09] Like...

[00:49:09] No, no.

[00:49:10] This piece was really good.

[00:49:12] I love his work but he was just sort of like talking about the feeling of like...

[00:49:16] I'll make this a short sidebar.

[00:49:19] Uh-huh.

[00:49:20] But like Freddie Prinze Jr. has also complained about this.

[00:49:22] Sir Michelle Gellar has also complained about this.

[00:49:25] The first Scooby-Doo movie was so fucking big.

[00:49:28] It was one of the most successful movies Warner Brothers had had up until that point.

[00:49:31] It's a movie you love to talk about.

[00:49:33] And then they immediately greenlit a sequel and then went to the cast and was like,

[00:49:37] fuck you.

[00:49:38] And they tried to cut everyone's salary.

[00:49:41] Whoa, sure.

[00:49:42] They told Freddie Prinze to take like a major pay cut.

[00:49:45] Like everyone was sort of like, why are you treating us like shit?

[00:49:49] You seem to have some resentment for a hit movie.

[00:49:52] And then they dumped the sequel in March.

[00:49:55] And it didn't totally bomb but it certainly was like way off from the first one.

[00:49:59] And then we're like, weird.

[00:50:00] This didn't work.

[00:50:07] It kind of like broke all of us.

[00:50:09] That we like had a hit where we were like, oh, I guess we're all going to keep doing Scooby

[00:50:13] movies and that we'll be able to like bankroll our weirder projects on the side.

[00:50:16] And immediately Warner Brothers was like seemed weirdly resentful of us.

[00:50:22] But they were kind of over.

[00:50:25] Right?

[00:50:26] That's sort of the funny thing to think.

[00:50:27] Like not so much Lillard.

[00:50:29] Yeah.

[00:50:29] Because Lillard's like, you know, you can always use a Lillard.

[00:50:33] You could use him in Twin Peaks The Return.

[00:50:34] You could use him anywhere.

[00:50:35] Right?

[00:50:35] Sure.

[00:50:35] But like Freddie Prinze by 2004, 2005, it's kind of like, yeah, no, you're not going to make the leap, buddy.

[00:50:42] Right?

[00:50:42] You know, you're right.

[00:50:43] The one and he had a similar thing to Lillard where then he like hard pivoted to voiceover for a while.

[00:50:48] And now he started like acting on camera again.

[00:50:50] But like The Grudge is the same year as Scooby-Doo 2?

[00:50:55] The Grudge with Sarah Michelle Gellar is, of course, have you seen The Grudge, Fran?

[00:51:00] Scary.

[00:51:00] No.

[00:51:01] The same year?

[00:51:02] Yeah.

[00:51:02] It seems scary.

[00:51:04] This show's scary.

[00:51:05] Yeah, this show is scary.

[00:51:06] How are you?

[00:51:09] Both.

[00:51:09] You don't love scary things, although I know you've gotten much braver in recent years.

[00:51:13] When I first met you and we first became friends, you were not brave.

[00:51:17] No.

[00:51:18] Like, and you had not really seen a lot of horror or mega sort of violent scary things.

[00:51:24] Right?

[00:51:25] You would mostly avoid it.

[00:51:26] Yeah.

[00:51:27] I'm braver.

[00:51:29] How is this?

[00:51:31] It's yucky.

[00:51:32] I wish I sort of agreed with the sort of central violent conceit that if someone's head goes sort of squish and crunch,

[00:51:39] it's like maybe funny or something.

[00:51:42] Mostly I'm just like, ew, every time.

[00:51:44] But, um...

[00:51:46] You're talking specifically with Lillard mode or sort of the recurring head violence?

[00:51:51] The recurring head violence in episode eight.

[00:51:53] Yeah.

[00:51:54] Sort of in that.

[00:51:54] It's the first episode where the two in the lab get all maimed and fucked up.

[00:51:59] Yeah.

[00:52:00] With the cube.

[00:52:01] Yeah.

[00:52:01] The sort of like similar types of violence in this sort of wear me down.

[00:52:07] Don't scare me so much.

[00:52:08] But I do think this show in general is quite unnerving.

[00:52:10] I am.

[00:52:11] Very.

[00:52:11] And it's also very just bleak in energy and sort of, you know, even when it's being funny,

[00:52:18] it's just like when you're visiting with Twin Peaks again and you're happy to see your friends,

[00:52:22] there's also just this mood in the town that's really like sedate and kind of...

[00:52:27] Well, the woman honking.

[00:52:28] The woman honking.

[00:52:28] And then things like that happen where you're like...

[00:52:30] That's like an ecstatic moment.

[00:52:32] I'm like, get me out of here.

[00:52:32] Right.

[00:52:33] Yeah.

[00:52:33] But wait.

[00:52:33] Nails on chalkboard.

[00:52:34] What were you going to say, Griffin?

[00:52:35] I am starting...

[00:52:36] It is starting to get to me living in Lynchworld for months.

[00:52:39] And this isn't the first time I've said this.

[00:52:41] Look, we're pivoting out soon.

[00:52:42] Yeah.

[00:52:43] We're going on to Penny Marshall next and that's going to be...

[00:52:45] We're not!

[00:52:45] Oh, that'll be so fun.

[00:52:47] We're not!

[00:52:47] You're calling me a liar on this?

[00:52:49] That's such a good idea.

[00:52:50] Thank you.

[00:52:51] We will do Penny Marshall on this show one day.

[00:52:54] Yeah, we'll do it one day and that day is January 23rd.

[00:52:57] No!

[00:52:59] But we are pivoting to, you know, more straightforwardly accessible work.

[00:53:05] Yeah, we're offering our listeners a penny for their thoughts, if you will.

[00:53:11] Winky winky.

[00:53:13] So, okay.

[00:53:13] So, yeah.

[00:53:14] Jerry sees his foot.

[00:53:14] It's not his.

[00:53:15] But yes, I guess...

[00:53:16] I love David Petrichele.

[00:53:17] Talk about him.

[00:53:18] Please.

[00:53:19] Well, I grew up watching The Warriors.

[00:53:20] Yes, David Petrichele, of course, plays Jerry Horn, a sort of lesser character.

[00:53:26] But he is Luther in The Warriors.

[00:53:27] He is the fuck?

[00:53:28] Warriors come out and play.

[00:53:29] He's the bubble guy.

[00:53:30] Dude, I never realized that until this very moment.

[00:53:34] That's crazy.

[00:53:35] I, like, locked into season one because I was like, Warriors.

[00:53:37] He's got an incredibly distinctive face and yet he's able to change his appearance around it a lot.

[00:53:42] And every time I see him in something, I'm like, that is him.

[00:53:45] It's the voice.

[00:53:46] It's the voice.

[00:53:47] I was lucky enough to see him in the, like, recent Into the Woods.

[00:53:51] Who do you play?

[00:53:52] The narrator.

[00:53:54] And that was another one where, like, halfway through, I was like, wait a minute.

[00:53:57] Yes.

[00:53:58] He's always a wait a minute guy for me.

[00:54:00] And I love him.

[00:54:01] I wish there was a little more of him in this.

[00:54:03] Yes.

[00:54:04] You excited for The Warriors musical?

[00:54:06] It's a concept album.

[00:54:07] Oh, it's a concept album.

[00:54:09] Yeah.

[00:54:09] I think it'll...

[00:54:10] I mean...

[00:54:11] I'm curious about it.

[00:54:12] I don't want to speak for anyone, including friends of the show.

[00:54:14] I think that it could become a musical.

[00:54:16] Sure.

[00:54:17] Right?

[00:54:17] For the time being, it's a concept album.

[00:54:19] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:54:19] Yeah.

[00:54:19] I feel like...

[00:54:20] I mean, I don't want to give Hollywood any more ideas for free, but I was always surprised

[00:54:24] that Warriors wasn't something that sort of ballooned into...

[00:54:29] I know that it's like, there's the movie and there's, like, the video game.

[00:54:31] That was the moment where it felt like...

[00:54:33] Which we had.

[00:54:33] Were they gonna try to explode this as a cult thing?

[00:54:36] Yeah.

[00:54:37] And then I...

[00:54:37] Because it was also, like, Rockstar being, like...

[00:54:40] We're...

[00:54:40] Basically, their blank check, it felt like, of using the Grand Theft Auto cache to be, like,

[00:54:45] this is our dream project.

[00:54:46] Yeah.

[00:54:47] And it felt like the game did not...

[00:54:48] Am I wrong about this, David?

[00:54:51] No, you're not wrong.

[00:54:52] And beyond that, it was kind of a logical thing, right?

[00:54:55] Like, if you're looking for...

[00:54:58] Like, it makes so much...

[00:54:59] What surprises me is that it's never been remade.

[00:55:01] I know there have been...

[00:55:02] Yeah, that's...

[00:55:03] Yeah.

[00:55:04] You know, discussions of a possible remake.

[00:55:07] Many.

[00:55:07] Many discussions.

[00:55:07] Tony Scott, I know, wanted to do one or whatever, but, like...

[00:55:10] I think David Ayer said he was kind of...

[00:55:12] Yeah, and I think Neville Dean and Taylor at one point were...

[00:55:15] Or one of those two...

[00:55:16] The thing that kept on coming out about the versions that those people were working on

[00:55:20] was that the twist was to make it more grounded.

[00:55:23] Yes.

[00:55:23] And I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about?

[00:55:26] That they were like, well, we want to treat it like real gangs.

[00:55:28] No.

[00:55:28] None of the cartoony shit.

[00:55:29] And I'm like, who gives a shit?

[00:55:31] No, they should all be in silly stuff.

[00:55:33] They should get sillier.

[00:55:34] With fun weapons.

[00:55:35] It should feel...

[00:55:35] I mean, I think that movie is good because it feels like a video game.

[00:55:38] Yes.

[00:55:38] To some of it's like, now you're in this level.

[00:55:40] Now you're in that level.

[00:55:41] And that's a structure in movies I think we've run away from a little bit.

[00:55:46] Yes.

[00:55:46] But it's effective.

[00:55:47] And it's fun.

[00:55:48] Yes.

[00:55:49] I don't know.

[00:55:50] It's one of those things where I'm like, nah, don't try to straight remake.

[00:55:53] It's something like what Lynn is doing is more probably a cool way to comment at it from

[00:55:58] a new approach or whatever.

[00:56:00] Or video game.

[00:56:01] One day someone will make a great subway video game.

[00:56:05] Okay.

[00:56:05] Obviously, you've got stuff like Streets of Rage or whatever where there's like a subway

[00:56:09] level.

[00:56:10] Yeah.

[00:56:10] You're battling through.

[00:56:11] But like...

[00:56:12] You mean an action driven one versus like you're running the META.

[00:56:15] Well, that sounds fun too.

[00:56:16] MTA management.

[00:56:17] Those kinds of things exist where it's like, would you like to painstakingly pretend to

[00:56:21] drive a subway car?

[00:56:22] Yeah, you can do that.

[00:56:23] Right.

[00:56:23] That game is called Your Dreams.

[00:56:25] But like some sort of open world-y game that's set in a subway system.

[00:56:30] Sure.

[00:56:30] Like a virtual sandwich artist simulator kind of game.

[00:56:33] Kind of a cool idea, right?

[00:56:35] Someone get on that.

[00:56:36] Sure.

[00:56:36] I mean, it's cool in video games when there is a subway system.

[00:56:40] Like Grand Theft Auto, I think when it had the New York set games especially, they would

[00:56:44] have a subway that you could like use.

[00:56:47] But it's more like sort of them being like, yeah, look, we have everything.

[00:56:51] Right.

[00:56:51] Yeah, exactly.

[00:56:52] Like in Alien Isolation, there's a big subway system-ish like between the space station's

[00:56:57] like parts.

[00:56:58] It's always cool to get on the subway.

[00:57:00] This episode ends with Sky Ferrer scratching her arm for a lot.

[00:57:04] I was about to say.

[00:57:05] Yeah.

[00:57:06] She'll do this, but she won't put out a new album?

[00:57:08] Well, I mean, come on.

[00:57:10] Sort of pandering with a joke like that.

[00:57:12] You're not afraid to say it.

[00:57:13] Oh, wait, wait.

[00:57:14] I'm ready for the new music.

[00:57:15] Wait, it's this episode?

[00:57:17] Yeah.

[00:57:17] For this?

[00:57:17] Yeah, because I wrote Sky Ferrer in all caps, question mark.

[00:57:20] Scratch him.

[00:57:21] Yeah.

[00:57:22] Yes.

[00:57:23] I feel like, is there something else in this episode that we're not referencing?

[00:57:27] I don't know.

[00:57:27] Probably not.

[00:57:28] Scratch him.

[00:57:28] I like when Gordon and Diane have a cigarette.

[00:57:32] Yes.

[00:57:32] You know, so you're right.

[00:57:33] But we have this kind of inkling that Diane is not on the level and is somewhat connected,

[00:57:40] right, to these unsavory elements in Vegas and all that.

[00:57:44] But we don't really know what's going on yet, right?

[00:57:46] Yes.

[00:57:47] Okay.

[00:57:48] I guess, do we want to talk about the thing in the chair?

[00:57:50] Where Bobby's smashing it.

[00:57:54] The cylinder.

[00:57:55] Yeah, the cylinder.

[00:57:56] And it referencing Jackrabbit's palace.

[00:58:01] Oh, right.

[00:58:02] It has the slips of paper in it.

[00:58:04] Yeah.

[00:58:04] Yep.

[00:58:04] That's all important little details.

[00:58:07] Right.

[00:58:07] Which is like a place that he and his dad would talk about, like this kind of made up place,

[00:58:11] right?

[00:58:12] Jackrabbit's palace.

[00:58:13] Yeah.

[00:58:13] I am very much watching this trying not to put more or less importance on any element that is introduced to me.

[00:58:21] You know?

[00:58:22] Like, I don't know if it's just the way I've now trained my brain to process this.

[00:58:27] Mm-hmm.

[00:58:28] But I feel like I'm now veering wildly in the opposite direction of maybe how people watched it at the time.

[00:58:35] Where I'm like, I think if I'm trying to look for specific answers or clean resolutions to things, it will frustrate me.

[00:58:42] Yeah.

[00:58:42] So I'm just taking every scene as it is.

[00:58:45] Yeah.

[00:58:45] Yeah.

[00:58:45] No, that's fine.

[00:58:46] Especially after the last episode.

[00:58:48] I think the way you watch The Return, especially the first time around, is to do exactly that.

[00:58:52] And then later, right, if you want to be like, you know, let me cast my brain back or let me sift through things and be like, oh, I guess that did connect to that and that.

[00:59:00] And it did sort of resolve.

[00:59:01] Like, there are things that kind of resolve.

[00:59:03] Yeah.

[00:59:03] Or things that are explanatory in the background that, yeah, they do pay off.

[00:59:08] It's not like this is a show that just throws a bunch of info out there and it's like, anyway, life's meaningless.

[00:59:13] But then it is kind of a show that does that.

[00:59:15] I do think it's kind of doing.

[00:59:15] But I also think if you're like looking at all the numbers on those little pieces of paper in the cylinder, you're not going to find anything, you know, satisfying.

[00:59:23] Right.

[00:59:23] It's not like the lost stuff where there would always be some new numbers to like punch into.

[00:59:29] Like, you can't do that.

[00:59:30] The two shows I just keep kind of like comparing this to in my own experience of being someone who is actively watching and engaged in the fucking feedback of it at the time and all of that shit.

[00:59:41] There's like the lost thing where it's like, this is solvable.

[00:59:44] Yeah.

[00:59:45] Right?

[00:59:45] They're like seeding clues.

[00:59:46] And maybe not all of this is going to work.

[00:59:48] But like anything they're putting in is towards some like fixed end.

[00:59:53] But God bless that was wrong.

[00:59:55] Correct.

[00:59:55] I mean, the thing about lost that I love lost, but right, they would have things like there would be the map that had been drawn on the station.

[01:00:05] Like there was this.

[01:00:06] In the hatch.

[01:00:06] Yeah.

[01:00:06] In the hatch.

[01:00:07] Right.

[01:00:07] The black light map.

[01:00:08] All this.

[01:00:08] Right.

[01:00:09] Like writing on it.

[01:00:10] Yeah.

[01:00:10] And people were like, what does this mean?

[01:00:11] What is it?

[01:00:11] And it turns out they were kind of like, yeah, I mean, there's like three things in there that we'd thought about.

[01:00:15] And there's a bunch of other shit where we were like, yeah, that sort of has the vibe of the kind of mysteries we've been doing.

[01:00:21] And maybe we fill it in or maybe we don't.

[01:00:22] Well, and everyone I know who goes back to watch lost is like it's so much more fun to watch when you're not doing all right.

[01:00:28] When you're not worried about what is everything wash over you.

[01:00:31] But I also like I think about Mad Men and the experience of watching that show and that having long gaps between seasons and it being a show that felt very elusive.

[01:00:39] And like the level of theorizing of shit where people were like, I think I solved it.

[01:00:46] Like, what's her name?

[01:00:47] Jessica Paré, her character.

[01:00:50] Megan.

[01:00:51] Of course, Megan.

[01:00:51] Megan.

[01:00:53] Well, Draper.

[01:00:54] Yes.

[01:00:55] Calvitt.

[01:00:56] There we go.

[01:00:56] Was wearing a shirt that famously.

[01:00:58] People thought, is she going to be Sharon Tate?

[01:01:01] Right.

[01:01:01] The Sharon Tate war.

[01:01:02] Yes.

[01:01:02] Right.

[01:01:03] And they were like, and this with the Beatles and it's helter skelter.

[01:01:05] So are they trying to tell us that she's going to get murdered or like a season would end with something like, oh, the foundation of the new agency that like Sterling Cooper, Draper Price.

[01:01:14] And you're like, wow.

[01:01:15] So the next season is going to be all they're doing it their way.

[01:01:18] And then two episodes in, like Draper torpedoes the whole thing.

[01:01:21] Right.

[01:01:21] Anytime you tried to game out where that show was going, the show was like, we're not interested in this shit.

[01:01:26] No.

[01:01:26] So my favorite thing about Mad Men, right, is that people keep being like, who I need for my new firm or my spinoff is Don Draper.

[01:01:33] And then they hire him.

[01:01:34] And he's like, so I just like go to the movies all day and I'm constantly drunk.

[01:01:37] Yeah.

[01:01:38] And I'm not very nice to work with.

[01:01:39] And they're like, what the fuck?

[01:01:41] And he's like, I've always been like this.

[01:01:43] And these cycles repeat themselves and things that feel like meaningless elements become huge and things that feel like they're huge tee ups for the future of the show immediately are abandoned.

[01:01:52] Yeah.

[01:01:52] In a way that feels like accurate to life to me.

[01:01:55] I had a friend who was convinced that the opening credits of Mad Men of a man falling, you know, were like, they're like, that's the end of the show.

[01:02:03] Don will kill himself.

[01:02:04] So many people had that prediction.

[01:02:05] And I was like, I don't think so, man.

[01:02:07] I don't think that was what they were.

[01:02:08] I think they were just kind of going for a vibe with whatever graphics they got, you know.

[01:02:12] That is like the post-loss shit.

[01:02:14] And then I think more and more shows are trying to do that, right, in the wake of loss.

[01:02:18] And I think like Twin Peaks starts that to a certain extent.

[01:02:22] But the success of loss to be able to sustain that for a way.

[01:02:25] And to a certain degree, it's like broken people's brains.

[01:02:29] Yeah.

[01:02:29] Well, I think Breaking Bad had that kind of puzzly stuff.

[01:02:32] Yes.

[01:02:32] Too.

[01:02:33] Too.

[01:02:33] And maybe Saul, but I never watched Saul.

[01:02:36] Where that feels more inherently baked into the structure is that there's some like puzzle or mystery.

[01:02:41] But Saul, right, had promise of that.

[01:02:43] But it turned out Saul was kind of doing a different thing.

[01:02:46] It had the...

[01:02:47] Whereas I never got the sense that Mad Men actually had.

[01:02:50] No, it didn't.

[01:02:50] But that's what Griffin's saying.

[01:02:52] At the time, people's radars were kind of up more.

[01:02:55] Yes.

[01:02:55] Yeah.

[01:03:00] Okay, great.

[01:03:01] The door dwells and ring.

[01:03:02] What's up?

[01:03:02] But that's a weird sigh of relief.

[01:03:05] See, I was sighing but more in wistful memories thinking back to all my favorite moments of 2024.

[01:03:11] You were...

[01:03:12] A year of great moments.

[01:03:14] Yeah.

[01:03:14] Yeah.

[01:03:15] Let's talk about some of them.

[01:03:16] The Minions returned.

[01:03:17] Oh, thank God.

[01:03:18] Thank God the Minions returned.

[01:03:19] But Gru rose.

[01:03:20] Gru rose.

[01:03:21] Venom had his last dance.

[01:03:23] As far as we know.

[01:03:24] Wasn't Gru rising two Minions movies ago?

[01:03:28] Okay.

[01:03:28] Is that right?

[01:03:29] I think so.

[01:03:30] I think this was just straight up Despicable Me 4.

[01:03:32] Oh, you're right.

[01:03:33] That's right.

[01:03:34] Right.

[01:03:34] That you're okay.

[01:03:35] I take it back.

[01:03:36] Look, these are our profundest memories of 2024.

[01:03:39] We can't even keep them straight.

[01:03:41] Well, you know, that's probably because I'm looking ahead to my plans in 2025.

[01:03:46] This is the reason why.

[01:03:46] Look, maybe one of our listeners is thinking about getting engaged.

[01:03:50] You're trying to make a memory that will stay put.

[01:03:53] People say, put a ring on it, right?

[01:03:55] If you put a ring on it, you're not going to forget it.

[01:03:57] You're not going to forget which Minions movie you saw if you put a ring on it.

[01:04:01] If you're going to take that momentous step.

[01:04:03] I recommend sourcing your engagement ring from BlueNile.com.

[01:04:06] Oh, interesting.

[01:04:07] The original online jeweler since 1999.

[01:04:10] Pre-Y2K.

[01:04:11] Yes.

[01:04:11] They were there down the hatches.

[01:04:13] Rachel Zegler wasn't there.

[01:04:14] She wasn't there.

[01:04:15] I think she truly was born after that.

[01:04:16] I think she was just born then.

[01:04:18] But 1999, they're holding on for dear life going, I hope this doesn't shut down at midnight.

[01:04:23] Absolutely.

[01:04:24] And they survived.

[01:04:25] On BlueNile, you can create a bigger and more brilliant piece than you can imagine.

[01:04:28] A price you won't find anywhere else because they offer a diamond price guarantee, which

[01:04:31] means that in most cases, they can meet or beat a competitor's price on a comparable

[01:04:35] diamond and you can feel great about your purchase.

[01:04:37] That's helpful.

[01:04:38] And, you know, they got the highest ethical standards.

[01:04:40] And so you can feel great about that too.

[01:04:42] And a 100% satisfaction guarantee with guaranteed free shipping and returns, then guaranteed

[01:04:47] service and repairs, Griffin.

[01:04:48] For life.

[01:04:49] For life?

[01:04:50] Untotal.

[01:04:51] Wow.

[01:04:52] And it's all insured.

[01:04:53] It arrives in packaging.

[01:04:54] It won't give away what's inside.

[01:04:56] God.

[01:04:56] So it won't get swiped.

[01:04:57] Yeah.

[01:04:58] Thank goodness.

[01:04:59] In most cases, it can even be delivered overnight just in case you want to make one more unforgettable

[01:05:03] memory in 2024.

[01:05:05] Yeah, one of those last second spur of the moment engagements.

[01:05:08] And as someone who got engaged in 2024.

[01:05:10] Well, look at that.

[01:05:11] That's the memory we were fishing for.

[01:05:13] Yes?

[01:05:14] Love.

[01:05:15] Well, that's a great endorsement.

[01:05:16] Well, right now you can go to bluenisle.com and use code blank check for $50 off your purchase

[01:05:20] of $500 or more.

[01:05:22] That's $50 off with code blank check at bluenisle.com.

[01:05:26] Bluenisle.com.

[01:05:27] Minions the Rise of Gru is 2022.

[01:05:29] Yeah.

[01:05:29] No, you're right.

[01:05:30] Yeah.

[01:05:30] Sorry.

[01:05:31] Okay.

[01:05:38] David.

[01:05:39] Yep.

[01:05:39] This episode is brought to you by Mubi.

[01:05:42] Mubi.

[01:05:43] We love it.

[01:05:44] It's a curated streaming service dedicated to elevating great cinema from around the globe,

[01:05:49] from iconic directors to emerging auteurs.

[01:05:52] There is always something new to discover with Mubi.

[01:05:55] Each and every film is hand selected so you can explore the best of cinema streaming

[01:05:59] anytime, anywhere.

[01:06:00] But here's what I really love about Mubi.

[01:06:02] What?

[01:06:02] David, they're invested in the culture.

[01:06:04] They don't just advertise on podcasts.

[01:06:06] And they don't just stream movies.

[01:06:08] They put things in theaters.

[01:06:10] They publish magazines.

[01:06:12] And they put out checks notes here.

[01:06:14] Podcasts?

[01:06:15] That's what I'm saying.

[01:06:15] They're coming to us.

[01:06:16] They are putting their money where their mouth is by covering, well, on their award-winning

[01:06:22] movie podcast.

[01:06:23] The movie podcast is starting a new season, season seven.

[01:06:25] Box Office Poison.

[01:06:27] It's going to tell the story of six films that were notorious financial disasters but have

[01:06:31] come to be celebrated as visionary.

[01:06:34] That's visionary.

[01:06:35] I'm just saying you're fancy.

[01:06:36] Yeah, no, it was very fancy.

[01:06:37] It's based on the...

[01:06:38] Yeah, Tim Roby.

[01:06:39] Yeah, well, why don't you go ahead and say that?

[01:06:41] Well, we're mutuals on Twitter.

[01:06:43] Tim Roby, the film critic for The Telegraph in the UK.

[01:06:46] He wrote a book called Box Office Poison.

[01:06:48] So we got host Rico Gagliano using his research to tell some wild stories about these films and their rise and their fall and their rise.

[01:06:59] What are the movies?

[01:07:00] Well, it's a good list.

[01:07:01] It's some movies we've covered on this show and some favorites of ours that we have not

[01:07:03] covered.

[01:07:04] Sorcerer.

[01:07:05] We will cover one day.

[01:07:06] Babe Pig in the City.

[01:07:07] We have covered.

[01:07:08] Sylvia Scarlet.

[01:07:09] I'm not sure about that one.

[01:07:10] The Hudsucker Proxy.

[01:07:11] We'll probably cover one.

[01:07:11] One of my all-time favorite movies.

[01:07:13] Synecdoche, New York.

[01:07:14] I think we'll cover it.

[01:07:14] A mutual favorite of ours.

[01:07:15] I think we'll get there.

[01:07:16] And Speed Racer.

[01:07:17] We covered it.

[01:07:17] Guests include master cinematographer Roger Deakins.

[01:07:21] Oscar-nominated actor James Cromwell.

[01:07:24] That'll do.

[01:07:24] Legendary screenwriter Wallen Green.

[01:07:27] Okay.

[01:07:27] SFX pioneer John Gaeta.

[01:07:29] Love that guy.

[01:07:30] Critic and podcaster Corina Longworth.

[01:07:32] Good friend of the show.

[01:07:33] Past a future guest.

[01:07:34] Movie star Rebecca Hall.

[01:07:36] Be still my heart.

[01:07:37] Yeah.

[01:07:38] UK comic genius Jamie Dimitru.

[01:07:41] He's all over the place.

[01:07:41] And Tim Roby himself.

[01:07:44] Very good.

[01:07:45] Six episodes released weekly on Thursdays from November 14th until December 19th.

[01:07:50] And don't forget to stream great movies on MUBI.

[01:07:53] Yeah.

[01:07:53] Like Andrew Arnold's Bird.

[01:07:55] Bird.

[01:07:55] Coming soon to their streaming service.

[01:07:57] Flap flap.

[01:07:58] Now they phrase it here as the long-awaited return to fiction filmmaking.

[01:08:02] It's been eight years.

[01:08:03] And the last film she made, scripted feature-length film, she made was your favorite film that year?

[01:08:10] 2016, Blanky, David Sims winner, American Honey, best picture for me.

[01:08:15] Yeah.

[01:08:15] A great movie.

[01:08:16] She also made Fish Tank, which I feel like a lot of people have seen.

[01:08:18] She made Red Road.

[01:08:19] She made Wuthering Heights.

[01:08:21] And her new movie is Bird.

[01:08:22] It's a tender and compelling and beautifully surprising coming-of-age fable about life in the fringes of contemporary society.

[01:08:30] Kind of her strong suit.

[01:08:30] But that's absolutely right.

[01:08:32] Yes.

[01:08:33] She finds very interesting ways to explore right communities you might not see on film as often.

[01:08:38] You know what's another thing I love about MUBI?

[01:08:40] They, in their copy, for the first time have answered for me definitively how to pronounce the name of the star.

[01:08:48] Go ahead.

[01:08:49] This film with its buzzy cast features Barry Heowen.

[01:08:55] That's right.

[01:08:56] Don't say the G.

[01:08:57] You might know him from Saltburn.

[01:08:58] Yes.

[01:08:59] Or, I mean.

[01:09:00] Franz Rogowski.

[01:09:02] Oh, sure.

[01:09:02] Yeah.

[01:09:03] Anyway.

[01:09:03] But yes.

[01:09:04] And then you've got Art House favorite, Franz Rogowski.

[01:09:07] Yes.

[01:09:07] Franz Rogowski from Passages and Transit.

[01:09:12] On Dean.

[01:09:13] Great movie.

[01:09:13] One of my favorite movies of the last couple of years.

[01:09:15] And then plus a revelatory central performance from a newcomer, Nakaya Adams.

[01:09:21] Another thing Andrew Arnold has quite attractive.

[01:09:23] Latest in a series of notable debut performances from Arnold.

[01:09:26] You've got a canon of formidable female characters vying for freedom from oppressive systems.

[01:09:31] You know, in Red Road, of course, you had Kate Dickey.

[01:09:34] Oh, no.

[01:09:35] Sorry.

[01:09:35] Well, yeah.

[01:09:35] Red Road was Kate Dickey.

[01:09:37] That wasn't a discovery.

[01:09:38] No, that was it.

[01:09:39] But in Fish Tank, you had Katie Jarvis.

[01:09:42] And in American Honey, you had Sasha Lynn.

[01:09:45] And she's still, you know, she's still crushing it.

[01:09:47] Yeah.

[01:09:48] Seeing Sasha Lynn all over the place.

[01:09:49] Look, New York Times called it a beautifully shot, delicately moving coming of age story.

[01:09:53] Little White Lies said it's a magical, energetic marvel from one of the UK's finest filmmakers.

[01:09:58] And David wouldn't know anything about that.

[01:10:01] But she's the best.

[01:10:03] And the movie is really, really worth seeing.

[01:10:05] And it's really great to have a new Andrea Arnold movie out there.

[01:10:08] Bird is coming soon to streaming exclusively on Mubi.

[01:10:13] Additionally, you want to stream some great films at home, you can try Mubi free for 30 days at Mubi.com slash blank check.

[01:10:21] That's M-U-B-I dot com slash blank check for a month of great cinema for free.

[01:10:26] And Bird will eventually end up there.

[01:10:29] Bird.

[01:10:29] Bird.

[01:10:36] Episode 10.

[01:10:38] So we've got Richard being insane.

[01:10:40] Richard, sorry to spoil horn.

[01:10:43] Harassing Miriam, who's the woman who saw him commit murder.

[01:10:47] Yeah, I'd say it goes beyond harassing.

[01:10:49] Yeah, being very, very, very scary.

[01:10:51] Richard, probably the most evil character in Twin Peaks.

[01:10:54] Thoughts, Fran?

[01:10:55] I agree.

[01:10:57] I looked up this actor the other day.

[01:10:59] I don't think I've seen him in anything else.

[01:11:00] He looked really familiar to me, though.

[01:11:02] But I can't place him.

[01:11:03] Wait, which actor?

[01:11:04] Richard.

[01:11:04] Who plays Richard?

[01:11:05] Eamon.

[01:11:06] Okay, so the actor's name is Eamon Farron.

[01:11:09] He's an Australian actor?

[01:11:10] Yeah.

[01:11:10] I mean, he's also in Jennifer Lynch's movie Chained, which I've never seen, but maybe that's

[01:11:15] the connection here.

[01:11:16] I don't know where they really found this guy.

[01:11:19] He has the most amazing face in the world.

[01:11:22] I was going to say, it's one of these things where, like, um...

[01:11:26] He's in The Witcher, but I feel like none of you guys watched The Witcher.

[01:11:28] I watched The Witcher, but I couldn't...

[01:11:29] Okay, well, he's in it.

[01:11:29] I can't place him in that either.

[01:11:32] Okay.

[01:11:32] He's the guy who's, like...

[01:11:34] A huge piece of shit.

[01:11:36] Yeah, evil army guy.

[01:11:37] Yeah, he's not a good character.

[01:11:39] Oh, actually, maybe I do know who this is in Witcher.

[01:11:41] A face like that, I think you're just rarely going to be cast as, like, Jim Niceman.

[01:11:45] I was going to say.

[01:11:46] Well, he reminds me of the eyepatch brother on House of Dragon a little bit, who also

[01:11:50] has such a great face, who is called Eamon in that show.

[01:11:54] Right.

[01:11:54] But not in life.

[01:11:55] I didn't watch season two of that show because I know it involves so much, like, baby murder,

[01:11:59] and I was like, I'm not ready for this right now.

[01:12:01] That's fine.

[01:12:01] I will watch it later.

[01:12:02] I will tell you, that's a season of TV I finished watching, say, in, like, the last weekend of

[01:12:06] July of this year.

[01:12:07] And it's gone.

[01:12:08] I can't tell you a single thing that happened this season, or how it ended.

[01:12:12] So, maybe don't.

[01:12:14] Yeah, maybe I won't.

[01:12:15] I don't know.

[01:12:15] Oh, but you know who I remember?

[01:12:17] Simon Russell Beale.

[01:12:18] Yeah, I love him.

[01:12:19] Well, he's in the mix.

[01:12:20] Yeah, no, I know.

[01:12:21] He's right.

[01:12:25] What do you want to say?

[01:12:25] I was going to say, he has such an inherently evil face, and I don't want to make this sound

[01:12:29] like a statement about the actor.

[01:12:32] And I admittedly haven't seen him in other stuff, right?

[01:12:35] But, like, Frank Silva, you know, all the stories of Lynch just seeing him on set and

[01:12:40] being like, wait a second, if you made this face and your look is so specific and whatever.

[01:12:44] And he's doing kind of, like, a scary haunted house, like, ah!

[01:12:47] And you're like, yeah, I get it within the language of it.

[01:12:50] If that guy does that, it reads as, like, scary evil, right?

[01:12:53] Right.

[01:12:53] But it feels like he's kind of playing, like, scary evil in quotes, which makes sense,

[01:12:58] because he's, like, more of a force than he is.

[01:13:00] He's a ghost or whatever.

[01:13:01] Right.

[01:13:02] He's not, right.

[01:13:02] Where is, yes, go on.

[01:13:03] This guy just looking at anything, I'm like, this is the most evil motherfucker who has

[01:13:07] ever lived.

[01:13:09] Uh, absolutely.

[01:13:10] Yes.

[01:13:11] Just him neutral before he even starts doing shit.

[01:13:13] And then when he throttles into, like, kicking through a trailer door, it then becomes

[01:13:18] that much scarier.

[01:13:20] And I, like, I, uh, I assume he is a lovely, well-adjusted man and has much range as an actor

[01:13:26] and can play other things.

[01:13:28] But I see him in this and I'm like, they, like, conjured him through the depths of hell.

[01:13:32] When do we find out that he's a horn?

[01:13:34] It's not initially, right?

[01:13:36] No, not at all.

[01:13:36] It's when he goes to, uh, his grandmother's house, right?

[01:13:40] Yeah.

[01:13:40] Yeah.

[01:13:40] And then he goes to Ben and you realize, like, that's the connection.

[01:13:44] I don't want to say anything more because now I'm afraid of spoiling, like, sort of his

[01:13:50] origins or whatever.

[01:13:51] But yes, initially you're just like, who's this?

[01:13:54] And he's kind of just this, like, ball of lightning, like, that is, like, the worst thing

[01:13:58] in the world, just tearing through town.

[01:14:00] Mm-hmm.

[01:14:00] Um, you've also got to check in with, uh, Caleb Landry Jones, Caleb Laundry Bag, and,

[01:14:06] uh, Amanda Seyfried, uh, in the trailer park run by Harry Dean Stanton.

[01:14:10] Uh, things are also going bad for them.

[01:14:12] This is, like, the bad vibes time.

[01:14:14] But Harry plays a little song.

[01:14:16] Yeah.

[01:14:16] He's, uh, he's playing the guitar.

[01:14:18] Which I love to see.

[01:14:18] It's so great.

[01:14:19] He's really, like, I'm surprised how good of a singer he is.

[01:14:22] Right.

[01:14:23] So you got the Mitchum brothers.

[01:14:25] Mm-hmm.

[01:14:25] Rodney and Bradley.

[01:14:27] Mm-hmm.

[01:14:27] Played by Robert Knepper.

[01:14:28] Mm-hmm.

[01:14:30] You know, a TV character actor, right?

[01:14:33] I mean, how would you describe Knepper?

[01:14:34] Obviously most famous for Prison Break.

[01:14:36] Yeah.

[01:14:36] People wrote a lot of weird fanfic about that guy.

[01:14:38] Who was he in Prison Break?

[01:14:39] T-Bag.

[01:14:40] Oh, of course.

[01:14:42] It was one of those characters where they were like,

[01:14:44] Yes, yes, yes.

[01:14:44] He's a recurring villain.

[01:14:45] He's, like, a pedophile.

[01:14:46] He's, like, the nastiest villain in Prison Break.

[01:14:48] And immediately the viewers of, like, this 8 p.m. Fox show were like,

[01:14:51] more of him!

[01:14:53] Put him all over this show!

[01:14:54] What, what, what?

[01:14:55] My brother's always rewatching Prison Break.

[01:14:57] I know there's some nasty allegations about Robert Knepper.

[01:15:00] There's some bad stories.

[01:15:01] But I do think, like, both in terms of his public persona and the roles he plays,

[01:15:07] it is that sort of just, like, immediate, this guy's bad news kind of thing.

[01:15:11] That's his vibe?

[01:15:12] Is that fair to say?

[01:15:12] Uh-huh.

[01:15:13] Uh-huh.

[01:15:13] And he, so he's in the show and you, right, you, that's the whole thing with him and then

[01:15:19] Bradley, who is played by Jim Belushi.

[01:15:21] Uh-huh.

[01:15:22] Yeah.

[01:15:23] Um, who, uh...

[01:15:24] According to whom?

[01:15:26] Where are you getting that info?

[01:15:27] According to Wikipedia.

[01:15:28] But you know who was initially supposed to play this role?

[01:15:31] John Belushi.

[01:15:34] Paul Giamatti was supposed to play one of the two missions.

[01:15:37] Oh, wow.

[01:15:37] I'm actually not sure which, but you think it would probably be the Belushi one because

[01:15:41] it feels like Belushi is more of a stand-in, you know, because it's, it's like kind of

[01:15:45] one skinny, mean guy and one big kind of doofy guy.

[01:15:48] Yeah, but Mott and Belushi would be interesting together.

[01:15:51] I mean, any combo is probably interesting.

[01:15:54] Yeah.

[01:15:54] But I love the presentation of these guys as, like, Vegas heavies, right?

[01:15:58] You know, like, scary guys who you don't want to see at your door.

[01:16:01] But then all of the stuff we have with them is the goofiest, most, like, airy, you know,

[01:16:08] ridiculous comedy.

[01:16:09] First, the first sequence is when, uh, the girl, uh, tries to swat a fly and hits Rodney

[01:16:15] in the head.

[01:16:16] Who live with them.

[01:16:16] My favorite.

[01:16:17] And they're all, like, screaming.

[01:16:18] My favorite character.

[01:16:19] Yes.

[01:16:19] She's the best.

[01:16:20] Candy.

[01:16:20] She's so good.

[01:16:21] She just, there's something about those moments where they're speaking to her and that

[01:16:26] recurring, like, comedy bit they do where she's just kind of spaced out.

[01:16:31] It's so funny.

[01:16:33] And I feel like, you know, the further episodes we have with these guys, you know, with the,

[01:16:38] um, the box with Dougie out in the, you know, in the later episodes, it's just fucking

[01:16:43] hilarious.

[01:16:44] This is one of the few things that feels like it's setting itself up in a very clear, propulsive

[01:16:49] narrative way, which is, like, the threads are being pulled together that Mr. Jack Potts

[01:16:55] is the same guy who works at the insurance firm.

[01:16:59] Right.

[01:17:00] And Fishler has activated Sizemore.

[01:17:02] I know I'm getting ahead a little here, but I feel like these five episodes really cover

[01:17:06] this sort of mini arc.

[01:17:08] Right.

[01:17:08] Like, the wake of Mr. Jack Potts, like, bankrupting a casino, kind of, and pointing out this insurance

[01:17:14] fraud.

[01:17:14] Like, his disruptive energies.

[01:17:17] Right.

[01:17:17] Like, what they do to this weird Vegas-y, you know, Arizona ecosystem.

[01:17:21] Fishler is activating Sizemore, who clearly already was kind of in on his own scam with

[01:17:27] them, um, but also strongly dislikes Dougie.

[01:17:32] Yeah.

[01:17:32] That there's this sort of, like, uh, propulsive, uh, Dougie needs to be assassinated.

[01:17:37] Yes.

[01:17:38] Dougie needs to be taken out.

[01:17:39] Take care of this problem.

[01:17:39] Right.

[01:17:40] Right.

[01:17:40] Can Sizemore point the mob towards Dougie so they take care of him themselves, or is

[01:17:45] Sizemore going to have to clean up the mess if they don't?

[01:17:48] Right.

[01:17:48] Yeah.

[01:17:49] The common enemy.

[01:17:50] Right.

[01:17:51] And so, they, Ike the Spike is the first attempt at that.

[01:17:54] That doesn't work.

[01:17:54] That's how they become aware of him.

[01:17:56] Dougie, meanwhile, has, like, gone to the doctor, and the doctor's like, you're now the fittest,

[01:17:59] handsomest man in the world?

[01:18:01] Yeah.

[01:18:01] Your old chart says you're a piece of shit.

[01:18:03] Not sure what's going on there.

[01:18:04] Naomi Watts, I prescribe you fucking him tonight?

[01:18:07] Exactly.

[01:18:07] I guess you gotta go home and break a bed, uh, Dolomite style, right?

[01:18:12] Like, just have Dolomite sex.

[01:18:13] They do have-

[01:18:14] David, that's a very good way of putting it.

[01:18:17] Yeah.

[01:18:18] What if I-

[01:18:19] They fucking human tornado?

[01:18:19] What if I, like, joined a dating app and my thing was like, I want to have Dolomite sex.

[01:18:23] Anyone, like, you know what I mean, like, who understands this reference, let me know.

[01:18:27] Otherwise, don't get in touch.

[01:18:28] I'm gonna throw out a couple reasons you shouldn't do that.

[01:18:30] I'm probably not gonna do it.

[01:18:31] I'm gonna be honest with you.

[01:18:34] Oh, boy.

[01:18:37] So, they have sex.

[01:18:38] Uh-huh.

[01:18:46] Uh, we have another episode of Dr. Amp.

[01:18:51] Where he's like, there's too much sugar and everything's poison, which I basically agree

[01:18:55] with, though I like eating the poison, to be clear.

[01:18:57] Of course, but that's a choice.

[01:18:58] I'll keep drinking that garbage.

[01:18:59] That's an informed choice.

[01:19:00] But I'm not happy about it, but I like eating it.

[01:19:02] Of course.

[01:19:03] Um, I like Dr. Amp.

[01:19:05] Well, I just love Ross.

[01:19:06] Yeah.

[01:19:07] Yeah.

[01:19:07] Uh, yeah.

[01:19:07] How do you feel?

[01:19:08] We haven't really asked you what you thought of, like, original Twin Peaks.

[01:19:11] I know you found Fire Walk with me very rattling and good.

[01:19:16] Yes.

[01:19:16] I think to your surprise.

[01:19:17] Yeah.

[01:19:17] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:19:18] Which, to a lot of people's surprise when they get around to that movie, they realize

[01:19:21] it's amazing.

[01:19:22] Yeah.

[01:19:24] Um, original Twin Peaks?

[01:19:25] Yeah.

[01:19:25] Just have my guys I like, my guys I don't care about.

[01:19:28] I like some of the more...

[01:19:29] Give us a little bit of a who's your power rank and who's on your shit list.

[01:19:33] Who's on my power...

[01:19:34] Yeah, I like the kind of evil people in the show.

[01:19:37] Okay, go ahead.

[01:19:38] You know, so I like, you know, the Horn brothers.

[01:19:41] Mm-hmm.

[01:19:42] And, uh, I like...

[01:19:44] Is it Ray?

[01:19:46] Shelley's?

[01:19:47] Not Shelley's.

[01:19:48] Um, Norma's, like, ex-husband?

[01:19:50] Oh, uh...

[01:19:51] No, Ray is, um...

[01:19:52] Ray's the other guy in this.

[01:19:54] The guy with Mr. C who tries to kill him and fails.

[01:19:56] Uh, you're talking...

[01:19:57] What is that guy's name?

[01:19:58] I forget, but I love that guy.

[01:20:00] I love Bobby.

[01:20:01] I mean, I think the arc of Bobby from original Twin Peaks to The Return is, like, so profoundly

[01:20:07] beautiful.

[01:20:08] Yeah, great arc in the show.

[01:20:09] Uh, Hank...

[01:20:11] Is who you're talking about?

[01:20:11] Hank.

[01:20:12] Hank.

[01:20:13] I love Hank.

[01:20:13] Chris Mulkey.

[01:20:14] He's just one of those guys where, like, oh, I know Chris Mulkey and he's in a lot of

[01:20:16] Twin Peaks, but he's the 18th most important character, so I forget, you know, what he does.

[01:20:21] Sorry.

[01:20:21] Go ahead.

[01:20:22] Yeah, and I like Audrey.

[01:20:23] Mm-hmm.

[01:20:24] Uh, I don't really care about James.

[01:20:27] I like James a lot.

[01:20:28] I don't care about Lucy and Andy.

[01:20:31] Um...

[01:20:31] You're naming my favorites.

[01:20:32] Sorry.

[01:20:33] Yeah.

[01:20:34] So you like the more open-hearted characters, Griffin, the kind of sweetie pies.

[01:20:38] Although, I do, like, I think holistically across the entire Twin Peaks project, uh,

[01:20:48] Dana Ashbrook is maybe the most impressive performance.

[01:20:51] Totally.

[01:20:51] Right?

[01:20:51] I think, like, what McLaughlin is doing specifically on the return trumps that, but then I also think,

[01:20:58] like, Ashbrook remains the second-best performance on this.

[01:21:01] Like, I think, I don't know, we've talked about it before, but it's just kind of astounding

[01:21:06] the range he has to be able to play all the different sides of what Lynch wants, whereas

[01:21:12] it feels like a lot of characters or actors only land on one side.

[01:21:16] Mm-hmm.

[01:21:16] Like, the fact that he is the character who's shared on both of our lists...

[01:21:20] Yeah.

[01:21:20] ...when we maybe show preferences to different sides of Twin Peaks is, like, he's kind of

[01:21:24] the only character that feels like he can adjust and adapt to any type of scene he's

[01:21:29] in.

[01:21:30] Well, and I think Lynch is kind of interested in the perpetuation of a certain kind of,

[01:21:35] dare I say, male violence...

[01:21:36] Yes.

[01:21:36] ...which comes up again and again in this work and other stuff.

[01:21:39] And with Bobby, it feels like he's exploring why someone might become violent and also what

[01:21:46] can save them...

[01:21:48] ...from this violence.

[01:21:49] Right.

[01:21:49] ...because he's such a dynamic and horrible character upon introduction.

[01:21:53] Yes.

[01:21:53] And then you start to get into the weeds of, like, what his life is like and what he's motivated

[01:21:58] by and this sort of disaffected youth culture thing that he comes to represent.

[01:22:03] I absolutely love him.

[01:22:05] I wish there was more of him...

[01:22:06] Yeah.

[01:22:06] ...in The Return.

[01:22:07] But there's sort of just enough also to maintain something...

[01:22:11] It's so high impact whenever he...

[01:22:12] Yeah.

[01:22:13] Yeah.

[01:22:13] ...is in there.

[01:22:14] Well, and he's got the Knoxville silver hair that also, like...

[01:22:18] Second I see someone who's gone all gray, I'm sort of moved.

[01:22:21] One of the most incredible...

[01:22:22] Yeah.

[01:22:23] Why am I not going gray?

[01:22:24] What's going on with my fucking hair?

[01:22:26] I don't know.

[01:22:27] You seem too calm.

[01:22:28] You should try to find more things to get stressed out about.

[01:22:30] I'm getting a lot of grays.

[01:22:31] My dad went gray very young.

[01:22:32] I'd love to go gray.

[01:22:33] My dad was, like, one of those guys.

[01:22:35] Went gray in, like, his early 30s or whatever.

[01:22:36] And it was kind of always his look.

[01:22:38] Yeah.

[01:22:38] And so I was always like, I bet that happens to me.

[01:22:40] And instead, yeah, I'm always stressed out.

[01:22:43] You hear me on this show.

[01:22:44] I know.

[01:22:44] Heard me melting down about talking about subway games.

[01:22:46] Yeah.

[01:22:48] Where's my gray hair?

[01:22:49] I have a little in the beard.

[01:22:52] A little, yeah.

[01:22:52] Just a little bit.

[01:22:54] I had an old roommate...

[01:22:55] Again, no sympathy for Sims.

[01:22:56] Who had...

[01:22:57] Doesn't have a subway game, doesn't have gray hair.

[01:22:58] No one cares.

[01:22:59] I have a friend, an old roommate, who had the streak.

[01:23:02] The, like, Bride of Frankenstein's streak.

[01:23:04] Which I'm always like, it's crazy.

[01:23:06] A rogue, sure.

[01:23:07] Yeah.

[01:23:08] No, I'm a big fan.

[01:23:09] I think gray hair rules.

[01:23:10] Yeah.

[01:23:11] And I think, like, not to speak ill of the late Tom Sizemore,

[01:23:16] someone who had a sterling reputation and never did anything bad.

[01:23:19] Right.

[01:23:19] I mean, this show is filled with people where you're like,

[01:23:21] just don't scroll too far on their Wikipedia page.

[01:23:24] Kind of just, right.

[01:23:25] Kind of just try to hit the halfway mark.

[01:23:26] Yeah.

[01:23:26] But he has, like, such unnaturally dyed hair in this.

[01:23:30] And I would say it doesn't feel like it doesn't fit for the character he's playing.

[01:23:35] But I'm just like, when you're looking at him existing in a show with a lot of people who have embraced their age.

[01:23:40] Yeah.

[01:23:40] You're like, all of them look better.

[01:23:43] Yeah.

[01:23:43] I understand why McLaughlin's hair has died.

[01:23:46] Because he's sort of unstuck.

[01:23:47] But I do think he's also quite striking looking now with all the gray hair.

[01:23:51] I mean, he has very much figured out this act of his life in that kind of gold-bloomy way of, right, like, you know, like,

[01:23:56] I am kind of at my best in my 60s all of a sudden.

[01:23:59] But I do think that's the case for almost everyone.

[01:24:01] As you said, like, it is, let's talk about Knoxville for half a second here.

[01:24:05] A great example.

[01:24:06] Right?

[01:24:06] Like, Jackass.

[01:24:07] Would probably fit on Twin Peaks, too.

[01:24:10] He would be good.

[01:24:11] Yeah.

[01:24:13] Forever starts filming with him with the dyed hair.

[01:24:16] And then he's said that it was just like, pandemic, filming shut down.

[01:24:19] Stop touching it up.

[01:24:21] And then we restarted filming.

[01:24:22] And I was like, fuck it.

[01:24:23] What if I just don't redye it?

[01:24:25] And all of us are just like, yeah, this is amazing.

[01:24:27] This is exactly how you should look.

[01:24:28] I mean, Forever is so good in part because it's about, like, the aging body.

[01:24:32] Yeah.

[01:24:32] And what the body can handle.

[01:24:33] Yes.

[01:24:34] That movie's amazing.

[01:24:35] Yeah.

[01:24:35] Rules.

[01:24:36] So, okay.

[01:24:38] So, right.

[01:24:38] We have, right.

[01:24:39] Richard, episode 10 is a lot of Richard, not Richard, sorry.

[01:24:43] No.

[01:24:44] Yeah, it is Richard.

[01:24:45] Yeah, Richard.

[01:24:45] Tearing through.

[01:24:46] Right.

[01:24:46] So, first him harassing Miriam.

[01:24:48] Then him going to, right, his mother's house, knocking Johnny to the floor, basically.

[01:24:54] Mm-hmm.

[01:24:54] And stealing her shit.

[01:24:55] His grandmother, sorry.

[01:24:56] Not his mother.

[01:24:58] So, you've got a lot of that.

[01:24:59] Um, you have Albert, uh, gets, uh, goes on a date with Jane Addams.

[01:25:05] Uh-huh.

[01:25:05] That's fun.

[01:25:06] Love.

[01:25:07] Yes.

[01:25:07] Talk about gray hair.

[01:25:08] Hot is.

[01:25:09] Yeah.

[01:25:09] Seriously.

[01:25:10] Yes.

[01:25:10] Yes.

[01:25:11] Um, she's so good on The Idol.

[01:25:14] I'm not lying, but, uh, we don't have to get into it.

[01:25:17] She was one of the better parts of The Idol, right?

[01:25:19] I do remember at the time, people were like, yeah, you know, Jane Addams is fun, and there's

[01:25:26] someone else that's kind of fun on it, right?

[01:25:28] Azaria.

[01:25:29] Who?

[01:25:30] Hank Azaria.

[01:25:31] Oh, Hank.

[01:25:31] Oh, he's in it?

[01:25:32] Yeah.

[01:25:33] Is that who I'm thinking of?

[01:25:35] The people kind of praised?

[01:25:36] Yeah, I guess it must have been.

[01:25:38] I'm looking at this cast list.

[01:25:41] Yeah.

[01:25:41] Troy Saman.

[01:25:42] Oh, well, Divine.

[01:25:42] Divine Joy Randolph.

[01:25:44] Oh, well, she good.

[01:25:45] Oh, yeah.

[01:25:45] Sure.

[01:25:45] Well, she and Hank Azaria and Jane Addams are like her team.

[01:25:49] They're the managers who are like, stop fucking The Weeknd.

[01:25:51] Yeah.

[01:25:52] And Lily Rose Depp is like, slow motion, smoking a cigarette or whatever she does.

[01:25:56] I thought Troy Sivan was kind of good on it.

[01:25:58] Okay.

[01:25:58] I'll never watch it.

[01:25:59] Yeah, me neither.

[01:26:00] Definitely don't.

[01:26:01] But it lingers in the mind.

[01:26:03] Like, few else.

[01:26:05] But that's a very fun character, the Jane Addams medical examiner character.

[01:26:08] Yeah.

[01:26:08] That's a great example from Peaks of the Return character where you're like, this is literally

[01:26:12] just a dusting of cinnamon, right?

[01:26:13] Like, it's not pivotal to anything, but we have found a great role for a great actor here.

[01:26:18] She's in it a lot.

[01:26:19] She is.

[01:26:19] And Miguel is just so good.

[01:26:21] I just think, even in the original episodes, one of my favorites, I always love in any kind

[01:26:28] of weird or supernatural shit, the one character who's like, this is so weird.

[01:26:31] This is so stupid.

[01:26:33] Right.

[01:26:33] Who's just the obvious cynic.

[01:26:35] I think it's just always appealing.

[01:26:37] And he's so good at it.

[01:26:38] And I'm so moved by him because he's no longer alive.

[01:26:42] Yes.

[01:26:43] And he's just one of my favorite characters in the show, generally.

[01:26:45] I'm trying to see if I can find the quote about it.

[01:26:50] But he was very sick by this point.

[01:26:54] He was also a regular on one of the NCIS shows, maybe New Orleans.

[01:26:59] Really?

[01:26:59] L.A.

[01:27:01] Just will always make me laugh.

[01:27:03] But like shot, I want to say.

[01:27:05] Just L.A.?

[01:27:05] Yeah.

[01:27:06] Like, what were they?

[01:27:06] Anyway, sorry, go on.

[01:27:07] Yes.

[01:27:07] He shot his final episode like a week before he passed away.

[01:27:10] He was one of those guys who insisted on like still working until the very end because

[01:27:14] he needed to like not to feel like he was still, you know, engaged with something.

[01:27:20] Right.

[01:27:20] And they just talk about like you can find these quotes that I cannot find right now

[01:27:24] of like cast and crew from NCIS L.A.

[01:27:27] where they just kept on trying to like write around him and be like, let's lighten his

[01:27:31] workload because he's not doing well.

[01:27:34] And he was just like, no, I got to do this and would come in and was just like the consummate

[01:27:38] fucking pro and would give his all and like nail it in one take.

[01:27:42] And then he'd like step off and they'd be like, he is in such an astonishing amount of

[01:27:45] pain right now.

[01:27:46] And it is one of those things of like there is such an innate, I don't know, there is

[01:27:52] this like weird, profound humanity to this character who is not given a ton of like emotionality.

[01:28:00] And it's obviously like even more weight now that we've like lost him.

[01:28:04] But like, yeah, Albert is a workaholic.

[01:28:07] Yes.

[01:28:07] He's not empathetic.

[01:28:10] The whole original clash that he has with Cooper is that he shows up and he's like,

[01:28:13] I fucking hate this town.

[01:28:14] Everyone's a bumpkin.

[01:28:15] Everything's so slow.

[01:28:17] And Cooper's like, I love it here.

[01:28:18] It's regenerate, you know, it's reenergizing me.

[01:28:20] And like, that's their kind of fundamental.

[01:28:22] There is something to I'm not saying it's a metatextual thing.

[01:28:27] I think it's like the weird like nature of on camera acting.

[01:28:31] There is something that is being transferred from the amount of effort it takes Miguel Ferrer

[01:28:36] to just like stand at this point in his life and to like look at people that lends

[01:28:42] it like such a weight when so much of his performance is like standing and nodding.

[01:28:46] Right.

[01:28:47] You know, it is done with like such depth of like this guy really wants to be here.

[01:28:52] And these actions take a lot out of him as minimal as they might seem.

[01:28:56] Right.

[01:28:56] It lends some sense of import.

[01:28:58] And I don't think this is, I guess I don't know where it goes any more than you do,

[01:29:03] but seeing that character start to come around.

[01:29:06] Start to open up a little bit.

[01:29:07] He's never going to sort of be like, I assume like full force sort of believer kook.

[01:29:13] But even these little kind of come like realization moments feel quite moving.

[01:29:18] All considered too.

[01:29:19] Yeah.

[01:29:20] Because that's what aging is also.

[01:29:22] Yeah.

[01:29:22] That's.

[01:29:23] Yeah.

[01:29:24] Right.

[01:29:25] And that's why we should all go gray.

[01:29:26] That's why you shouldn't fight it.

[01:29:27] The other big thing in episode 10, right, is like the sort of the chain of events of like

[01:29:32] Patrick Fishler tells Tom Sizemore, you need to remove Dougie.

[01:29:37] Right.

[01:29:37] And so Tom Sizemore tries to convince the Mitchum brothers like he's your problem.

[01:29:42] Yes.

[01:29:43] Like, you know, to try and like, you know, solve the problem for him.

[01:29:46] Right.

[01:29:47] We also.

[01:29:48] But meanwhile, Dougie's boss, the boxer, what's his name?

[01:29:53] I'm realizing like 40% of these Twin Peaks episodes is me just going, what's his name again?

[01:29:57] I know who you're talking about.

[01:29:58] Yes.

[01:29:59] Right.

[01:29:59] I don't remember which episode it's introduced in, but he like gives credit to Dougie through

[01:30:06] his weird doodlings, pointing his attention to the thread of where the money is going, which

[01:30:13] would have ruined the company if they had not taken insurance policy out against the

[01:30:17] insurance policy.

[01:30:18] So actually, thanks to Dougie, everyone has ended up.

[01:30:22] Everyone's in great shape.

[01:30:23] Right.

[01:30:23] No one's in trouble.

[01:30:25] But you have this sort of tension of like, well, knowing Dougie cannot really string together

[01:30:30] a sentence.

[01:30:31] Will he be able to explain this to Jim Belushi in time to not be shot?

[01:30:36] Because Jim Belushi doesn't seem like a patient person.

[01:30:39] No.

[01:30:39] Yes.

[01:30:40] End of the episode is Rebecca Del Rio performing, of course, from Mohandadrava.

[01:30:44] Long time.

[01:30:45] All right.

[01:30:45] But so part 11.

[01:30:46] With Moby.

[01:30:46] Oh, Moby's there?

[01:30:47] I was.

[01:30:48] I was wondering if it was him.

[01:30:50] I said that's Moby.

[01:30:50] Yeah.

[01:30:50] I can clock Moby.

[01:30:52] He's the guitarist.

[01:30:54] Huh.

[01:30:54] Yeah.

[01:30:55] I never clocked that.

[01:30:56] You've worked with Moby.

[01:30:57] Should we not talk about that?

[01:30:59] We can cut that out.

[01:30:59] You've worked with Moby?

[01:31:00] Should we?

[01:31:01] Yeah.

[01:31:02] We shouldn't talk about it, but I worked with Moby on something.

[01:31:05] Interesting.

[01:31:05] Was he nice?

[01:31:06] Yeah.

[01:31:06] He was nice.

[01:31:07] He was pretty.

[01:31:08] Yeah.

[01:31:09] He was nice.

[01:31:10] Cool.

[01:31:11] Is he a like vegan?

[01:31:13] I would have heard about him by now.

[01:31:15] It never came up sort of in discussion, but he has these big tattoos.

[01:31:20] Right.

[01:31:20] I was going to say.

[01:31:20] Remember when Eminem.

[01:31:21] If you talk less to his face and more to his forearms, you might have gotten an answer.

[01:31:25] Yeah.

[01:31:25] Remember when Eminem, it's without me, I think, right?

[01:31:28] Like, you know, he releases without me.

[01:31:29] David, you're looking at me.

[01:31:32] And it's like, oh, Eminem's back.

[01:31:33] He's uncorking like all his comic stuff.

[01:31:35] And he's like, and he fucking rags on Moby in this one.

[01:31:39] For doing yoga?

[01:31:40] Moby?

[01:31:41] Like Eminem's, that's like the softest target imaginable.

[01:31:45] Like that's the best he can do is nobody listens to techno.

[01:31:48] No.

[01:31:49] Some of his targets are weird.

[01:31:50] And like him drilling down on Chris Kirkpatrick.

[01:31:53] Oh, I forgot about that.

[01:31:54] Yeah.

[01:31:55] And I'm like, is it just truly that it's a good rhyme?

[01:31:57] It probably was.

[01:31:58] It must be.

[01:31:59] Yeah.

[01:31:59] I just remember like there's like an attack on Moby in the music video, like a fake Moby.

[01:32:04] And it just felt like even to teen me in 2004, I was like, I don't think anyone's really worried about Moby like doing anything right now.

[01:32:12] He's not on your corner.

[01:32:14] When Eminem briefly announced he was retiring at like 33, you were like, yeah, after the Moby thing, maybe you do need a fucking brief.

[01:32:20] It feels like the tank's a little empty.

[01:32:23] Okay.

[01:32:23] So yeah.

[01:32:24] And right.

[01:32:24] Part 11, we've still got, we've got more of the Caleb Laundry bag, Amanda Seyfried drama.

[01:32:31] It's like these, all these Twin Peaks characters, or not, but like a lot of these Twin Peaks characters have had kids who are just like disasters.

[01:32:39] Right.

[01:32:39] Right.

[01:32:39] It's like, you know.

[01:32:43] Shelly and Bobby have Becky.

[01:32:45] Right.

[01:32:46] It's Becky and Richard.

[01:32:47] Like, it's just, but it's like, well, you start the episode out in the 90s.

[01:32:51] They were all these troubled teens or whatever.

[01:32:53] But, but they're like soap opera troubled teens versus these being like bad people.

[01:32:58] They're perpetuating all the worst parts of their parents.

[01:33:02] Right.

[01:33:02] Like, or their grandparents, even.

[01:33:04] I feel like Richard Horn is more of a Richard Boehmer.

[01:33:07] Because the Twin Peaks teens are like Greece rebel without a cause.

[01:33:11] Right.

[01:33:12] Right.

[01:33:12] They're troubled teens of a, of a prior youth.

[01:33:14] And now all these teens, 20-somethings, whatever they are, it's like this nasty, modern kind of like depraved, you know, listless youth.

[01:33:24] Like with no jobs and no prospects.

[01:33:26] And they're like living and stealing from each other and like on drugs.

[01:33:29] And it's like, it just feels more like real or in your face.

[01:33:34] Even though in Twin Peaks, a lot of the same problems are, you know, being presented in soapier ways.

[01:33:39] The Bobby Shelley conversation with Amanda Seyfried where they're like trying to put like a wall down and be like, you have to fucking stop it with this guy.

[01:33:46] And she's alternating constantly between like, I love him and I hate him.

[01:33:49] Don't worry.

[01:33:49] I never want to talk to him again.

[01:33:51] Feels like, yes, not this like heightened dramatic version.

[01:33:57] Yeah.

[01:33:57] Of a like doomed romance.

[01:33:59] It is like, oh, this is like a pretty uncomfortable look at someone caught in an abusive relationship with a dangerous person.

[01:34:06] Some of that just feels like a different way in which we talk about young people on TV now, though.

[01:34:12] Also, like we don't really have those kind of like soapy characters anymore.

[01:34:17] And I think the concept even of like a CW teen show is very different now.

[01:34:22] It's striving for a greater sense of psychological realism than it.

[01:34:25] Or going like whole hog fantasy, like history thing.

[01:34:29] But it's no longer doing like One Tree Hill or like Everwood or whatever.

[01:34:34] What sort of that do you think is like a fear of the quote unquote insensitive portrayal?

[01:34:39] That like a lot of those types of shows were baked around these big dramatic arcs of things that are treated not like insensitively, but are treated broadly.

[01:34:49] Versus now people wanting to be like it's like a real snapshot of what these things are like.

[01:34:55] Even in the sort of broadest versions of those shows, people want credit for this is an accurate representation.

[01:35:02] Yeah, I think it's less about sensitivity and more just like people's imaginations are so much smaller and are not willing.

[01:35:09] And everyone takes everything so literally.

[01:35:11] Yeah, I feel.

[01:35:13] And some of those things were great because they were these like exaggerations, which now like our brains can't process.

[01:35:19] Whereas like, I don't know, you see like a I'm just whatever my Twitter feed is now.

[01:35:24] I'm always seeing old clips from Glee and people are like, this is crazy.

[01:35:28] This was on the air.

[01:35:29] And it felt a little crazy at the time, but it was way closer to what shows were like back then than what they are now.

[01:35:35] Glee had almost a throwback element where it felt like they were always doing very special episodes and all that.

[01:35:40] But just about more lurid stuff.

[01:35:44] Right.

[01:35:44] Glee had this frankness to some of the very special episodes that was more contemporary.

[01:35:50] Sure.

[01:35:50] It's not really defensive Glee, which is not a show I ever loved.

[01:35:54] You weren't a Gleek?

[01:35:55] I was not a Gleek.

[01:35:57] But it did, you know, for a minute there, it was basically like, can we do like Friday Night Lights with songs, right?

[01:36:04] Yes.

[01:36:04] Can we have this sort of high intensity, real teen shit drama, but also it's like a silly musical with jokes and Jane Lynch is there.

[01:36:13] And now it's euphoria, you know?

[01:36:16] Like, this is happening to me!

[01:36:19] Like, and you're just like, can you all shut up?

[01:36:21] Like, be quiet.

[01:36:22] But I'm even like thinking of shit like the fucking Max Gossip Girl reboot and the creators coming out and being like, don't worry, we're really going to examine privilege head on.

[01:36:32] Right.

[01:36:32] And I'm like, what is the point?

[01:36:34] Mm-hmm.

[01:36:36] Um, but the, right, the OC Gossip Girl era of aspirational shows where you're like, don't you want to be part of this world but also explore the dark side?

[01:36:45] Yes.

[01:36:45] Now that's whatever and can't be done in a way that doesn't feel corny.

[01:36:49] What?

[01:36:49] You know what Twin Peaks season one reminds me of sometimes?

[01:36:52] What?

[01:36:52] Veronica Mars, which was a great example.

[01:36:54] Veronica Mars.

[01:36:55] Veronica Mars.

[01:36:55] Bobby is very Logan Eccles.

[01:36:57] Yes, Veronica Mars is 100% um, fuck, what's his name?

[01:37:02] Uh, you know, Matchbox 20.

[01:37:04] Rob Thomas.

[01:37:05] Rob Thomas.

[01:37:05] Rob Thomas.

[01:37:06] I mean, a different guy but he has the same name.

[01:37:08] Uh, the creator of Veronica Mars.

[01:37:09] Mm-hmm.

[01:37:10] Uh, Rob Thomas being like, right, can I make a kind of noir-y, Twin Peaks-y teen show?

[01:37:16] Mm-hmm.

[01:37:17] He succeeded for a while, kind of fell off the rails of, you know, I think season three of Veronica Mars is really bad but like, defensible.

[01:37:24] I remember four being an uptick.

[01:37:25] Well, no, four is, there's only three seasons before the revival.

[01:37:29] Why did I think?

[01:37:30] And then the movie.

[01:37:31] Yeah.

[01:37:31] Mm-hmm.

[01:37:32] It had a bunch of-

[01:37:33] Three is the one that ends with her signing up for the Academy?

[01:37:36] Yeah.

[01:37:36] Taking the test?

[01:37:37] Okay.

[01:37:37] Where they kind of are trying to pivot to maybe a reboot-ish season four and then it just got canceled.

[01:37:42] Maybe when I said four was an uptick, it's the four I wrote in my head.

[01:37:46] Yeah, maybe.

[01:37:47] Yeah.

[01:37:48] Um, and then Riverdale.

[01:37:50] Yeah.

[01:37:51] Uh, which I never watched much of.

[01:37:52] That felt like where I'm like, okay, we're making copies of copies at this point.

[01:37:55] Because Riverdale is like, what if Archie was Twin Peaks?

[01:37:58] And you're like, what if?

[01:37:59] And they're like, by episode three, they're like, Archie has magic powers.

[01:38:02] And I'm like, okay, well, you've kind of gone beyond Twin Peaks at this point.

[01:38:06] But that's the thing.

[01:38:07] There's also the weird effect of that being like, can you only get away with that level of like operatic storytelling if you're couching it in the sort of like irony of, isn't it funny we're doing this with Archie?

[01:38:20] Yeah.

[01:38:22] Yeah.

[01:38:22] I mean, I've.

[01:38:23] Yes.

[01:38:23] I feel like I've referenced this before and I was talking about this with someone recently and it caused me to like pull back up the file.

[01:38:29] But there was the fully buried announced shot and never released Diablo Cody Powerpuff Girl show for CW.

[01:38:38] That was very much them trying to do the same thing.

[01:38:41] Oh, I thought you were going to talk about the Heathers that got canceled also.

[01:38:43] No, I didn't ever watch that.

[01:38:45] Oh, you didn't want to?

[01:38:46] The buzz was so good.

[01:38:47] Sorry.

[01:38:48] How was it?

[01:38:49] I didn't watch it.

[01:38:50] I haven't seen it.

[01:38:51] Yeah.

[01:38:52] The Powerpuff Girls show felt like an absolute breaking point of them being like, it somehow became euphoria level shit in Powerpuff Girls.

[01:39:02] Right.

[01:39:03] And trying to make the like electricity off the tension of you think these characters are innocent and we're making them do insane like ecstatic things.

[01:39:14] And that felt like a cultural crash moment.

[01:39:18] That happened quietly in shadows.

[01:39:19] We have to stop rebooting.

[01:39:20] Right.

[01:39:20] Yeah.

[01:39:20] We must make something new.

[01:39:21] Veronica Mars, God bless it.

[01:39:23] Good show.

[01:39:24] To be clear, I generally love Veronica Mars.

[01:39:27] That was new.

[01:39:28] Yes, it was using old tropes or whatever.

[01:39:29] Like all new, you know, stuff.

[01:39:31] Do that again.

[01:39:32] Yeah.

[01:39:33] Come on.

[01:39:34] Chop, chop.

[01:39:35] Yeah, Ben, do that again.

[01:39:36] Oh, I'm seeing here that broadcast television is dead.

[01:39:38] So unfortunately.

[01:39:39] No, it's kind of back though.

[01:39:40] Is it?

[01:39:41] Doctor Odyssey.

[01:39:42] Should I watch that?

[01:39:43] What is that?

[01:39:44] It's so cool.

[01:39:44] What if you were a doctor on a boat?

[01:39:47] Joshua Jackson?

[01:39:48] Whoa, whoa, whoa.

[01:39:51] My interest jumped up 100%.

[01:39:54] Did you not know?

[01:39:54] No, I don't know.

[01:39:55] He's the titular Odyssey.

[01:39:57] Don Johnson.

[01:39:57] But Don Johnson's the captain of the boat.

[01:39:59] He's the captain of the boat.

[01:40:00] I can see it.

[01:40:01] His name is Odyssey though?

[01:40:03] No, the boat is the Odyssey.

[01:40:05] He's the doctor on the boat.

[01:40:07] Fuck.

[01:40:08] Oh, but that's such a good idea for a show.

[01:40:10] It's like how they called him Doctor House because he lived in a house.

[01:40:14] They call this guy Doctor Odyssey because he lives on the Odyssey.

[01:40:17] Does that joke even make any sense?

[01:40:19] I liked it.

[01:40:20] Who else is on Doctor Odyssey?

[01:40:21] No one laughed.

[01:40:21] Apparently Pippa Sue.

[01:40:23] Philippa Sue.

[01:40:24] Love her.

[01:40:24] Okay.

[01:40:25] And Don Johnson, as you mentioned.

[01:40:26] There's that clip going around of Caperlant being poisoned by a smoothie made by Margaret

[01:40:32] Cho.

[01:40:32] And that's like one of many things that Doctor Odyssey has to deal with.

[01:40:36] Wait, that happens on Doctor Odyssey?

[01:40:38] Yeah, Caperlant gets poisoned.

[01:40:40] By Margaret Cho?

[01:40:41] Smoothie.

[01:40:42] On Doctor Odyssey?

[01:40:43] There's something in the smoothie.

[01:40:45] What's in there?

[01:40:46] I don't know.

[01:40:46] I think it's making her break out in hives.

[01:40:48] Is it?

[01:40:48] Yeah.

[01:40:49] Okay.

[01:40:50] That sounds great.

[01:40:51] I'll watch it.

[01:40:51] I'll tune in tomorrow.

[01:40:53] I also, I don't watch any of the like 911 Lone Star spinoffs, but my parents watch all

[01:40:57] those.

[01:40:57] I see clips occasionally from Twitter.

[01:40:59] Yes, me too.

[01:41:00] But if you want to know where any lost alumni is, they've shown up on that show.

[01:41:05] It's just all lost alumni.

[01:41:07] I feel like I saw a clip of Gina Torres yelling at a young girl who had a harmonica.

[01:41:11] With a harmonica in her mouth.

[01:41:12] Yeah.

[01:41:12] That's one of the more insane things I have ever seen.

[01:41:15] This is what I mean about broadcast TV.

[01:41:17] They're like, time to get the Vaseline.

[01:41:18] Right.

[01:41:18] They still have to fill those hours.

[01:41:20] Yes.

[01:41:21] And there's still actors who want to make money doing it and so on.

[01:41:24] That's why I'm like, maybe it's back.

[01:41:26] It's like just stealth back, but nobody's talking about it really.

[01:41:29] And then once in a while people will be like, do you know there's like harmonica's getting

[01:41:32] stuck in mouths?

[01:41:33] Dude, the two of you, Ben and David, know what harmonica girl looks like.

[01:41:37] No.

[01:41:38] Because it's like.

[01:41:38] It's really crazy.

[01:41:39] It's like killer clowns from outer space makeup.

[01:41:43] Like it is so fun.

[01:41:44] That looks good.

[01:41:45] And Gina Torres is having like an intense emotional conversation.

[01:41:48] Breathing out through the harmonica.

[01:41:50] Her friend is translating.

[01:41:53] Like her friend can understand what she's saying through the harmonica, which is what's

[01:41:56] crazy.

[01:41:57] Right.

[01:41:57] Her friend is going like, she's saying that her mouth hurts.

[01:42:00] And then there's all these people in the replies on Twitter being like, this would never happen.

[01:42:03] Yeah.

[01:42:05] But I think it could.

[01:42:07] But you're like, I don't believe you.

[01:42:09] On Twin Peaks, to get us back to that, Hastings, Matthew Lillard, right, takes everyone to

[01:42:17] see like to the forest.

[01:42:18] Right?

[01:42:19] It's like the woods.

[01:42:20] Yeah.

[01:42:20] And he's like, so I saw Major Briggs here.

[01:42:22] I saw his head.

[01:42:24] Just the head.

[01:42:24] Head's at Cooper.

[01:42:25] Yeah.

[01:42:26] And it said Cooper.

[01:42:29] And this is where Gordon Cole, played by David Lynch.

[01:42:32] Do you enjoy that character, Fran?

[01:42:34] You know, in original, no.

[01:42:39] In The Return, yes.

[01:42:40] I kind of agree with you.

[01:42:42] In original, you're kind of like, he's having fun, but this is a little much.

[01:42:46] Yeah.

[01:42:46] And then in this season, in The Return, he's such a, you really need him.

[01:42:51] Like, he's kind of the guy you're grabbing onto.

[01:42:53] He's steering the ship more.

[01:42:54] Yeah.

[01:42:55] Yeah.

[01:42:56] So I really like him in The Return.

[01:42:57] Yeah.

[01:42:58] And he sees a spiral in the sky.

[01:43:00] Yeah.

[01:43:00] A vortex.

[01:43:00] That's right.

[01:43:01] He sees this sort of very Lynchian image of this crazy vortex.

[01:43:05] Seemingly sees it for the first time.

[01:43:06] And sort of yanks him out of the way.

[01:43:08] Right.

[01:43:08] It would be scary if you saw that for real.

[01:43:10] Yeah.

[01:43:10] He's good at acting.

[01:43:12] David Lynch.

[01:43:12] Yeah.

[01:43:13] He is, kind of.

[01:43:16] I mean, I watched the fucking Fable Man scene maybe once every other week.

[01:43:20] Oh, it's awesome.

[01:43:21] I watch it all the time.

[01:43:22] It is so compelling.

[01:43:24] Yeah.

[01:43:24] It's one of those things where you're like, that anyone had any other idea for this

[01:43:28] scene is unimaginable to me.

[01:43:30] Like, this was always meant to exist.

[01:43:32] I feel like Spielberg hasn't said who it was, but that he had someone else he was going

[01:43:36] to offer it to.

[01:43:38] Uh-huh.

[01:43:38] And then it was fucking, what's his name?

[01:43:43] Kushner's husband.

[01:43:45] Mark Harris.

[01:43:45] Mark Harris.

[01:43:46] Mark Harris is the one, according to Mark Harris, and I believe him, who suggested David

[01:43:50] Lynch initially.

[01:43:51] And it was a brilliant suggestion.

[01:43:51] He was like, you know you should cast as Ford.

[01:43:53] And he was like, I have someone in mind.

[01:43:54] And he said David Lynch.

[01:43:55] And then Spielberg was like, God fucking damn it.

[01:43:57] But, uh, yes.

[01:43:59] And Lynch was the one who had to be talked into it.

[01:44:01] Right.

[01:44:01] Because everyone else was like, that makes so much sense.

[01:44:03] Yeah.

[01:44:04] Um, but yes.

[01:44:05] Uh, and then after they see this vortex, Matthew Lillard comes down with a terrible case of

[01:44:10] head explosion.

[01:44:11] Yes.

[01:44:11] Yes.

[01:44:12] It looks like he was killed by the same thing that killed the-

[01:44:15] The woodsman.

[01:44:17] Oh.

[01:44:18] Right.

[01:44:18] No, but I'm saying the wound looks like the same kind of wound that the people in the

[01:44:23] room with the glass box had.

[01:44:25] Oh.

[01:44:26] Oh.

[01:44:27] Like the way, the trajectory and the way that he was like cut.

[01:44:30] So maybe you're right.

[01:44:31] But you're saying internally the logic is that the woodsmen are who have killed him?

[01:44:35] No, I'm not sure that that is true.

[01:44:37] I mean, we see them encroaching.

[01:44:39] Yes.

[01:44:40] But, uh, that is-

[01:44:40] And in the car, right?

[01:44:41] That is how I always took it, is that we're seeing sort of an invisible version of that.

[01:44:47] Right?

[01:44:47] Sure.

[01:44:48] Like, you know, like where we've seen the woodsmen in episode eight essentially crush people.

[01:44:52] Mm-hmm.

[01:44:53] We're basically seeing that again, except this time we don't see the woodsmen, and that's

[01:44:56] how it would look to most people, is someone's head just mysteriously going splat.

[01:45:00] God.

[01:45:00] What do you guys make of the woodsmen?

[01:45:02] Well, we talked about them a fair amount on episode eight.

[01:45:05] Okay.

[01:45:05] No, I'm not saying we can't talk about them anymore.

[01:45:07] Okay.

[01:45:07] I'll listen to it.

[01:45:08] Do you like their look?

[01:45:10] Scary.

[01:45:11] Mm.

[01:45:11] How do you feel about soot?

[01:45:14] Soot?

[01:45:14] In general.

[01:45:15] Uh-

[01:45:16] As far as, like, a look?

[01:45:19] Mm.

[01:45:20] Not crazy about it.

[01:45:21] Really?

[01:45:22] Yeah.

[01:45:23] Um-

[01:45:24] Kind of dirty, you know?

[01:45:26] Wow.

[01:45:27] I mean, because I'm toying with the idea of introducing soot into my day-to-day-

[01:45:33] Don't you think you'd get uncomfortable, though?

[01:45:36] Don't you think-

[01:45:36] You would probably annoy people by tracking soot all over wherever you went.

[01:45:40] That's true.

[01:45:40] Yeah.

[01:45:40] The Pigpen effect.

[01:45:42] On what?

[01:45:42] Yeah.

[01:45:42] On your skin?

[01:45:43] On your clothes?

[01:45:44] Both.

[01:45:45] Maintain his internal atmosphere without disrupting others.

[01:45:48] You know what?

[01:45:49] You're right.

[01:45:49] Like, as much as Pigpen is filthy or whatever, he doesn't really mess with anyone.

[01:45:54] This is a great question.

[01:45:55] Does Pigpen-

[01:46:10] Yeah.

[01:46:12] Yeah.

[01:46:12] He's wealthy?

[01:46:13] Yeah.

[01:46:14] Yeah.

[01:46:14] He's rich as balls.

[01:46:16] He's kind of got that, like, trust fund kid thing where he's like, oh, I don't know,

[01:46:19] I don't have money for ramen.

[01:46:20] But he's like, really?

[01:46:22] He's loaded?

[01:46:23] He's like, oh, I can't afford a shower.

[01:46:25] Secretly he has a trust fund.

[01:46:25] He's like, afford a shower?

[01:46:27] I mean, I think of the Woodsmen as, like, agents or creatures of the Black Lodge or the

[01:46:32] other world, right?

[01:46:33] Yeah.

[01:46:33] Like, they're malevolent, but they also don't feel like they have much of a personality.

[01:46:37] They just kind of, like, they're a little-

[01:46:39] Like servants.

[01:46:39] Yes.

[01:46:40] The little agents of Bob or agents of bad things or whatever.

[01:46:43] Yeah, they're like minions.

[01:46:43] Okay, I agree.

[01:46:44] They are kind of like minions.

[01:46:46] I also think-

[01:46:47] Like dirty little minions.

[01:46:48] In the really, you know, in the really lynchy way that would kind of just sound annoying

[01:46:54] when I say it, so I'm going to say it anyway, they're kind of just like electricity.

[01:46:58] Okay, David, you can't stay there.

[01:47:00] You got to keep talking.

[01:47:01] But, you know, like, that's what Lynch is often just sort of doing where he's like,

[01:47:04] you know, electricity.

[01:47:06] And you're like, what do you mean?

[01:47:07] He's like, that's all I have for you on, like, what's creating a force or, you know,

[01:47:13] what's driving the plot forward or whatever.

[01:47:15] You know, and like how he always wanted to make that movie.

[01:47:17] Jesus, Ronnie Rocket.

[01:47:18] Yes.

[01:47:19] And it's like, well, what's it about?

[01:47:20] It's like electricity.

[01:47:22] Sure.

[01:47:22] And like, that's what the woodsmen are.

[01:47:23] Like, do they have, like, a person, you know, like, are they like, I want to kill Matthew

[01:47:30] Lillard now because he's been revealing our secrets.

[01:47:32] No, it's just kind of like Lillard opened up energy from this other dimension and it's

[01:47:38] just kind of rushing at him and he can't take it anymore.

[01:47:40] And it's the end of him.

[01:47:42] Yeah.

[01:47:42] But also so much of this show is like these forces are unleashed because of the man-made

[01:47:49] and technology and like the disruption of nature, you know?

[01:47:54] Yeah.

[01:47:54] Yeah.

[01:47:55] I was thinking about The Leftovers does that crazy flashback to like cave people.

[01:48:00] And I was thinking about how this doesn't need to go that far back to explore a certain

[01:48:04] kind of modern evil that it's actually pretty recent.

[01:48:07] Yes.

[01:48:08] Yes.

[01:48:08] And otherwise completely unchangeable.

[01:48:11] Yeah.

[01:48:11] What's important is that Matthew Lillard is gone.

[01:48:14] We salute his service.

[01:48:15] Yeah.

[01:48:15] Great work.

[01:48:16] Right?

[01:48:16] Yeah.

[01:48:17] I said RIP.

[01:48:18] Okay.

[01:48:18] So what else we got?

[01:48:19] We got, yeah, we got a lot of this drama with Bobby and Shelly and Becky trying to figure

[01:48:23] out like how do we solve Becky's problem husband and all this stuff.

[01:48:29] Mm-hmm.

[01:48:29] Uh, at the Double R diner.

[01:48:31] We've got, um...

[01:48:32] You have the scene with the woman in the car that we've talked about.

[01:48:35] Oh, it's scary.

[01:48:36] And the kid vomiting.

[01:48:37] Yeah.

[01:48:38] How about Hawk and Frank looking at the map together?

[01:48:41] Looking at the map together.

[01:48:42] That's so fun.

[01:48:42] The weird symbols.

[01:48:43] I feel like these episodes, the scenes start becoming really like...

[01:48:48] Overwhelming.

[01:48:49] Yeah.

[01:48:50] They just play for a really long time in a way that I, now that I'm getting used to the

[01:48:54] rhythm of the show, I'm really enjoying how long and luxurious they're just going on forever.

[01:49:02] It feels like.

[01:49:03] Does anyone else start clicking in at this point with that?

[01:49:06] Yes.

[01:49:07] I also find Frank such a, like, calming, like, presence that I want to be.

[01:49:13] I want to be in his presence as much as possible.

[01:49:16] I like how no bullshit he is when, you know, Hawk is like, this represents electricity.

[01:49:22] The corn represents sustenance.

[01:49:24] And Frank's like, okay.

[01:49:26] You know, like, not like, well, come on, Hawk.

[01:49:29] Or, you know, like, just the disarming acceptance of both Truman brothers is always very nice for me.

[01:49:34] But back to, I mean, this point of, like, the natural versus the man-made or, like, man's trying to impose its will upon the natural order and whatever.

[01:49:44] Like, Hawk, as the show goes on, having more and more of the answers and those answers coming from a sense of passed down tradition of a culture that was perhaps more attuned.

[01:49:55] Right.

[01:49:56] That wasn't fighting against things but was able to, like, coexist with an understanding.

[01:50:01] And now you have, like, people like Matthew Lillard who's, like, trying to break the barrier, like, breach the membrane.

[01:50:09] And then as a result gets his fucking head blown off.

[01:50:13] Gets exploded.

[01:50:13] Right.

[01:50:14] Has people's fucking exquisite corpsing bodies across each other and everything.

[01:50:19] Have you guys talked much about Chad?

[01:50:22] I think it's interesting that he brought in sort of a cop who's bad this time.

[01:50:26] That we sort of touched on it, that there's our old friends at the sheriff's department who we love to see.

[01:50:31] And then there's this other element, this other office, basically, of, like, regular-ass shit cops.

[01:50:37] Right.

[01:50:38] Like cynical and entitled.

[01:50:39] Who are some of them and cynical.

[01:50:40] Right.

[01:50:40] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:50:41] And hate to hear about the old days and, like, have any empathy for, you know, whatever happened back with Laura Palmer or whatever.

[01:50:49] Anything like that.

[01:50:51] And, yeah, Chad is another great Chad Broxford.

[01:50:55] Great.

[01:50:56] I don't know the actor.

[01:50:58] John Piricello.

[01:50:59] He was on the last season of Barry as well and was, like, incredibly good.

[01:51:03] Who was he in that?

[01:51:04] I did watch that.

[01:51:05] He plays one of the cops investigating the former partner, I want to say, from Rinkler's girlfriend.

[01:51:11] It's him and, like, Sarah Burns.

[01:51:13] Yeah.

[01:51:13] He's just a great kind of shifty guy.

[01:51:16] Yes.

[01:51:17] I don't know.

[01:51:17] What do you think, Fran?

[01:51:18] He's awesome.

[01:51:19] I like that we have this separation between the cops of yesteryear and the ones of today.

[01:51:26] Right.

[01:51:28] And feels like it's, like, I don't know, addressing something a little more modern about the justice system without having to be, like, acknowledging what police do.

[01:51:37] I don't know.

[01:51:37] Even in the 90s, like, Twin Peaks was depicting a, like, Mayberry police department.

[01:51:43] Completely.

[01:51:44] Like, it's not just that it was, like, an older school of policing.

[01:51:46] It's, like, an older school of television policing.

[01:51:50] Right.

[01:51:50] Like, Twin Peaks is airing at a time where, like, you know, there is the modern cop show that is more hard-edged.

[01:51:57] And here's, like, a drama with this sort of, like, throwback, more innocent, benevolent cop force.

[01:52:02] Yeah.

[01:52:03] And now you're not getting, like, you know, like, the S.H.I.E.L.D. level, like, edgy pay cable cop.

[01:52:09] You're getting just, like, the kind of, like, worst cynical, mundane, arrogant, ineffectual.

[01:52:17] Yeah.

[01:52:17] I like that there were dispatcher.

[01:52:19] We get that scene of just her taking all the 911 calls and just being, like, what's your location?

[01:52:23] What's your location?

[01:52:24] As if to say that, like, while these guys were spiraling about Laura Palmer, there were just a bunch of other people having to deal with everything else.

[01:52:32] Yes.

[01:52:33] Episode 11 ends with the showdown in the desert, basically.

[01:52:37] Yes.

[01:52:38] I'm trying to think if there's anything else.

[01:52:39] Right.

[01:52:39] But the big set piece is the Mitchum brothers taking Dougie to the desert and realizing he is not their enemy, essentially.

[01:52:51] With the mirroring of a dream that allows him to slow things down and investigate more thoroughly, find the pie in the box, find the check, which was just on his person.

[01:53:00] Like, that's the best part is, like, they would have shot him dead and then found the check afterwards.

[01:53:04] It's only because they decide to frisk him.

[01:53:06] He was never going to know to offer the check up.

[01:53:08] Right.

[01:53:10] And then it takes him to, like, out for drinks.

[01:53:13] Right.

[01:53:13] Yeah.

[01:53:14] Right.

[01:53:14] And the...

[01:53:16] And the woman who he...

[01:53:19] The slot addict, Linda Porter, who's a great old lady actor.

[01:53:24] Yeah.

[01:53:24] She's so good.

[01:53:25] I love her.

[01:53:25] She's always funny.

[01:53:26] I feel like she's in, you know, a billion shows and movies as an old lady.

[01:53:34] But this is why you cast Belushi.

[01:53:36] Because he can do the turn from, like, hulking and a little intimidating to, like, Dougie!

[01:53:41] Like, so well.

[01:53:43] Yeah.

[01:53:44] I mean, I don't know, Fran, like, but Chicago guy.

[01:53:47] I was going to say, that's...

[01:53:47] You're in the bag for him.

[01:53:48] Of course.

[01:53:49] I was like, that's a classic Midwestern attitude.

[01:53:51] He's a real pierogi.

[01:53:52] I basically never like funny Jim Belushi and always like dramatic Jim Belushi.

[01:53:57] I would agree with that.

[01:53:59] Like, it's not even like, oh, he's been good a surprising number of times.

[01:54:02] I'm like, I think, like, he's incredible in Thief.

[01:54:05] Yes, he is.

[01:54:05] He's great in this.

[01:54:06] Yeah.

[01:54:07] He's great in The Ghost Rider.

[01:54:08] Yes, he is.

[01:54:09] And it's one fucking scene where you're like, who the hell is that?

[01:54:12] I feel like anytime he shows up in this kind of role, you're like, well, why?

[01:54:18] And, you know...

[01:54:19] Why doesn't this happen more often?

[01:54:20] Sure.

[01:54:20] He talks about that he always intended to be a dramatic actor and that when he went into comedy,

[01:54:25] like, John was disappointed.

[01:54:26] And then after John's death, people were like, can you be the new Belushi?

[01:54:29] Belushi, there is something that kind of makes sense of like, what didn't totally click with

[01:54:36] him comedically is maybe a reflection of him slightly being pushed into a slot.

[01:54:41] Well, is the problem with comedy Belushi exactly that?

[01:54:44] That he was essentially being put into fairly lackluster comedy projects?

[01:54:49] Fairly is even justice.

[01:54:50] Right.

[01:54:51] Out of a sort of like, well, we need somebody.

[01:54:54] Yeah.

[01:54:54] The big guys don't want to do this.

[01:54:56] Right.

[01:54:56] But you kind of have an...

[01:54:58] And like, because it's like, is Jim Belushi unfunny?

[01:55:01] No.

[01:55:02] He's fine.

[01:55:04] He's good humored, I think.

[01:55:05] Right.

[01:55:05] But I don't think he ever slotted neatly into like a comedic trope.

[01:55:10] No.

[01:55:11] Of like...

[01:55:11] It's like, yes.

[01:55:12] Like, okay, Jim Belushi's bad in K-9.

[01:55:14] I'm just kind of like, is Jim Belushi the problem here?

[01:55:17] Right.

[01:55:17] Or was the, you know...

[01:55:18] The problems had taken root long before Jim Belushi started opening his mouth.

[01:55:21] We were giving him our worst and he was not elevating.

[01:55:24] Right.

[01:55:24] He could never compare to his brother.

[01:55:26] Yes.

[01:55:26] Well, there's obviously that.

[01:55:28] He would never be able to live up to...

[01:55:29] If he was called Jim Chicago...

[01:55:32] Well, it's an interesting name.

[01:55:33] And it was just like, okay, there's a big guy who has a mustache sometimes and sometimes

[01:55:38] doesn't.

[01:55:39] And he plays like a guy who's like, kind of like a cup of coffee.

[01:55:42] And he's like, hey.

[01:55:43] Yeah.

[01:55:43] And I might then be just like, yeah, I love that guy.

[01:55:45] That Chicago character actor guy.

[01:55:47] I love that guy.

[01:55:48] The fact that he's called Jim Belushi.

[01:55:49] If he was even called Ralph Belushi.

[01:55:51] Then it's another J.

[01:55:53] Yeah.

[01:55:53] Is really working against him to the point that you're like, did someone spell John's name

[01:55:57] wrong?

[01:55:58] Oh, no.

[01:55:58] John had already died.

[01:55:59] And this movie stars Jim Belushi.

[01:56:02] Like, it's like the experience of watching a Jim Belushi movie.

[01:56:04] Salvador is another one.

[01:56:07] The Oliver Stone movie.

[01:56:08] He's incredibly good at it.

[01:56:10] God, I haven't seen that movie in a long time.

[01:56:11] Yeah.

[01:56:12] Incredible.

[01:56:12] James Woods.

[01:56:13] Okay.

[01:56:14] We should wrap up on episode 11.

[01:56:15] I just want to say one thing we got to call out.

[01:56:18] That's a really good bit that I think might even become a classic bit for me in my rotation

[01:56:22] of classic bits is when they keep having Dougie do a toast and he just keeps reaching for

[01:56:28] the glass.

[01:56:29] Yes.

[01:56:30] I love that.

[01:56:31] And I'm going to have to integrate that.

[01:56:32] It's a good bit.

[01:56:33] It's all good.

[01:56:33] Dougie's got great bits.

[01:56:36] But yes, this ends with a musical performance of Piano Man at the Bar rather than Roadhouse.

[01:56:44] Yes.

[01:56:45] Yes.

[01:56:46] Which is great.

[01:56:51] David.

[01:56:52] Yes.

[01:56:54] What are you laughing about?

[01:56:55] I'm sorry.

[01:56:56] I know this is unprofessional because we're supposed to be doing an ad read right now.

[01:57:01] Sure.

[01:57:02] Okay.

[01:57:02] It's just so funny how the people we love the most are often the hardest to shop for.

[01:57:11] David, I just find that so funny.

[01:57:15] I mean, you know, it's a classic problem.

[01:57:19] So it's very relatable.

[01:57:21] Yeah.

[01:57:21] Yeah.

[01:57:21] But luckily there's one gift that everyone on your list is sure to enjoy.

[01:57:25] And I got it.

[01:57:26] I got to curb my laughing long enough to tell you what that gift is, David.

[01:57:29] Uh-huh.

[01:57:30] An Aura digital picture frame.

[01:57:35] God, I'm just thinking about the people I love the most and how hard it is to shop for them.

[01:57:39] But it was named number one by Wirecutter, Aura Frames.

[01:57:42] And they make it incredibly easy to share unlimited photos and videos directly from your phone.

[01:57:48] Yeah, to the frame.

[01:57:49] To the frame.

[01:57:49] It goes right to the frame.

[01:57:50] And when you give an Aura frame as a gift, you can personalize it and preload it with

[01:57:53] a thoughtful message and photos using the Aura app, making it an ideal present for long

[01:57:58] distance loved ones.

[01:57:59] Right.

[01:57:59] It's a gift so special they use it every day.

[01:58:01] And I'm just thinking about those loved ones and the ones I love the most and how hard it

[01:58:08] is to shop for them.

[01:58:09] I mean, you're like, you know, you're relating to people.

[01:58:14] It's something everyone feels.

[01:58:15] It's very relatable.

[01:58:16] That's the root of great comedy.

[01:58:16] It's great comedy.

[01:58:17] It's truth and comedy.

[01:58:18] But yeah, you can just basically catch up.

[01:58:20] You're buying a picture frame for a parent.

[01:58:22] Yeah.

[01:58:22] Yeah.

[01:58:23] And just you can put on a bunch of great photos right away so that when they plug it in,

[01:58:28] they're seeing a lot of nice memories.

[01:58:30] And that isn't funny.

[01:58:31] That's no lie.

[01:58:31] No, I'm actually I've gotten very serious now.

[01:58:33] That's very touching and meaningful.

[01:58:34] So you can save on the perfect gift by visiting our frames to get thirty five dollars off or

[01:58:38] as best selling Carver Matt frames by using promo code check at checkout.

[01:58:42] That's a U.

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[01:58:45] This deal is exclusive to listeners.

[01:58:47] So get yours now in time for the holidays.

[01:58:49] Terms and conditions apply.

[01:59:04] We don't answer the door.

[01:59:06] Well, I think it's a great question.

[01:59:08] Bring the show to a halt.

[01:59:09] All right.

[01:59:10] Creek.

[01:59:11] Hello.

[01:59:12] Hi.

[01:59:13] What's up?

[01:59:15] I'm pretty worried.

[01:59:17] Anxious.

[01:59:18] Overwhelmed.

[01:59:19] You should probably give me a name.

[01:59:21] Hooper.

[01:59:22] Dr. Hooper.

[01:59:22] OK.

[01:59:23] Hello, Dr. Hooper.

[01:59:23] How are you doing?

[01:59:24] Oh, you're anxious and overwhelmed.

[01:59:25] Why are you anxious and overwhelmed?

[01:59:27] Well, usually I'm hunting a big game fish, sharks, barracuda.

[01:59:31] Oh, OK.

[01:59:32] You're Hooper from Jaws.

[01:59:34] Yes.

[01:59:34] OK.

[01:59:34] So that's the character that you are.

[01:59:36] And that's who you are.

[01:59:37] That's who I am.

[01:59:38] Richard Dreyfuss's character, Hooper.

[01:59:39] Correct.

[01:59:39] Hooper.

[01:59:40] Yes.

[01:59:40] And you're anxious.

[01:59:41] Yes.

[01:59:42] OK, cool.

[01:59:42] I think you met one of my friends recently in an ad read.

[01:59:45] Possibly.

[01:59:45] I don't keep track.

[01:59:46] Listen, usually I'm anxious about the sharks, their teeth, their jaws, if you will.

[01:59:52] Right now, I'm anxious about finding the perfect gift.

[01:59:55] Oh, well, it's overwhelming.

[01:59:57] Easier to handle.

[01:59:59] I know it can be overwhelming, but I have found the perfect spot.

[02:00:03] You have found the perfect spot.

[02:00:04] Yes.

[02:00:05] For timeless gifts made from premium materials, you got to check out Quince.

[02:00:08] Now, I am for real a bit of a Quince addict.

[02:00:12] I'm going to tell you, Hooper.

[02:00:13] I, you know, we get our little promo code.

[02:00:17] I can see the truth in your eyes.

[02:00:17] Yeah.

[02:00:18] We can get our little promo code as host of the show for the advertisers that we work with.

[02:00:22] And we get a little bit of free.

[02:00:23] Oh, go get yourself a pair of pants.

[02:00:26] Try them on.

[02:00:27] Walk around the house.

[02:00:28] See if you like them.

[02:00:29] I'm kind of keyed in with Quince.

[02:00:31] I'm getting a lot of Quince stuff, guys.

[02:00:33] Have you guys done Quince?

[02:00:35] I got this really nice, like kind of cashmere long shirt, really warm.

[02:00:39] One of those experiences where like in the middle of the day, I was like, I feel great.

[02:00:43] Why do I?

[02:00:44] Oh, this shirt is really, really soft and nice.

[02:00:47] I was going to say, it's so soft.

[02:00:48] What an enthusiastic Addery.

[02:00:50] I really like Quince.

[02:00:50] With incredible personal experience.

[02:00:52] I'm talking, of course, about their iconic Mongolian cashmere sweaters who started $50.

[02:00:56] They got fleece sweatpants.

[02:00:57] That's a major upgrade to any sweat pant you might have, Hooper.

[02:01:00] Okay.

[02:01:00] Can I be honest?

[02:01:01] Uh-huh.

[02:01:02] I said I came in here.

[02:01:03] I was anxious, overwhelmed, trying to find the perfect gift.

[02:01:05] It's not true.

[02:01:07] Okay.

[02:01:07] Well, in a sense, it's true.

[02:01:08] You're lying.

[02:01:09] I was looking to get a gift for myself.

[02:01:11] Oh, okay.

[02:01:12] Well, what do you-

[02:01:12] I need to change my wardrobe.

[02:01:14] Yeah.

[02:01:14] Well, that's the thing, you know?

[02:01:15] Right now, it's 90% Canadian tuxedo, 10% wetsuit.

[02:01:18] You're also soaking wet.

[02:01:19] Yeah, you've got to stop.

[02:01:20] Well, that's why I've got to wear the wet suit.

[02:01:22] Stop going in the cage.

[02:01:23] Because the denim doesn't play well in water.

[02:01:25] Look, I want to wrap this ad up, but I do want to tell you that no matter what you're-

[02:01:28] Denim boxers?

[02:01:28] Denim socks?

[02:01:29] No matter what you're looking for, all-

[02:01:31] Denim glasses?

[02:01:32] All quints items are priced 50% to 80% less than some of their brands because they partner

[02:01:36] directly with the top factories.

[02:01:37] They cut out the cost of the middleman.

[02:01:38] Those savings get passed on right over to you, and they only work with factories that

[02:01:42] use safe, ethical, and responsible manufacturing practices.

[02:01:46] Sounds perfect.

[02:01:46] Get yourself some quints.

[02:01:48] I'm going to call to action if you don't mind, Mr. Hooper.

[02:01:50] Please, absolutely.

[02:01:52] Uh, yes.

[02:01:53] Sure.

[02:01:53] Gift luxury this holiday season without the luxury price tag.

[02:01:56] Go to quints.com slash check for 365-day returns plus free shipping on your order.

[02:02:01] That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash check.

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[02:02:18] All right.

[02:02:19] Part 12.

[02:02:20] Yes.

[02:02:20] Part 12 is kind of the Diane episode, right?

[02:02:23] Where there's like more probing into what is going on with her.

[02:02:28] So what do we have?

[02:02:30] You know, here begins with inducting Tammy, Agent Tammy Preston, into the Blue Rose Club.

[02:02:40] Right?

[02:02:40] Those are long-

[02:02:41] Task force.

[02:02:41] Yes.

[02:02:43] Which is basically just Twin Peaks' X-Files.

[02:02:45] Uh-huh.

[02:02:45] It's like, right?

[02:02:46] It's like the FBI, if there's a case that's weird, it kind of gets secretly moved over to

[02:02:51] the Blue Rose people who are trying to-

[02:02:52] And they're former UFO people.

[02:02:54] Right.

[02:02:55] Right.

[02:02:55] Um, and they have, uh, they ask her and she says, let's rock, which is a course, you know,

[02:03:02] classic catchphrase from Twin Peaks.

[02:03:03] Mm-hmm.

[02:03:04] What do you guys think?

[02:03:05] Great?

[02:03:05] Good.

[02:03:06] Okay.

[02:03:07] Uh, now-

[02:03:08] I'm really cooking with gas here, conversationally.

[02:03:11] Well, what do you guys think?

[02:03:12] Yeah, sure.

[02:03:13] She's such a weird character to me.

[02:03:15] I-

[02:03:15] I can't figure out what this is.

[02:03:18] Well, the fact that she's introduced with everyone being like, David.

[02:03:21] Yes.

[02:03:22] You're so horny, you know, introducing this character.

[02:03:26] Like, on screen they're saying that.

[02:03:27] Right.

[02:03:27] And then she spends the whole show being like, I'm here too, like, with a notebook.

[02:03:31] Yes.

[02:03:32] Taking notes and stuff.

[02:03:33] And walking all sexy.

[02:03:34] Right.

[02:03:34] Yeah.

[02:03:35] I have no read on her for that exact reason, where I'm just like, what are we doing here

[02:03:40] if you've, like, called out from the very beginning how this looks?

[02:03:44] Yeah.

[02:03:45] But, yeah.

[02:03:46] Sure.

[02:03:46] It's beyond me.

[02:03:47] She's not making anything worse.

[02:03:48] No.

[02:03:49] No.

[02:03:49] But, neutral.

[02:03:51] Neutral.

[02:03:52] Here's my thought about Diane.

[02:03:53] Go ahead.

[02:03:54] She's got the Taylor Swift nails.

[02:03:56] Please elaborate on that.

[02:03:57] All different colors.

[02:03:59] Is that a Taylor Swift?

[02:04:00] Is that a Taylor Swift thing?

[02:04:00] She started doing it, I think, around the Lover era.

[02:04:03] Okay.

[02:04:03] And it's consistently sort of what her nails look like.

[02:04:05] She keeps her nails very short.

[02:04:07] Sure.

[02:04:07] Because she has to play guitar.

[02:04:08] Yeah.

[02:04:09] And they're usually all different colors.

[02:04:11] So, I do wonder, you know, this is pre-Lover.

[02:04:15] I was going to say, what's Taylor?

[02:04:17] What other era are we in around 2016, 2017?

[02:04:19] Or post-Reputation pre-Lover, which is when she starts to do those nails.

[02:04:24] So, you're saying that Taylor Swift was ripping off Diane from Twin Peaks when she did that?

[02:04:29] It's an interesting take.

[02:04:29] It's an interesting take.

[02:04:31] Mm-hmm.

[02:04:32] My two cents.

[02:04:33] I just always think that.

[02:04:34] I'm like, she's got the Swift nails.

[02:04:36] So, we also, early on, and we'll talk more about Diane.

[02:04:40] Mm-hmm.

[02:04:41] Pretty much, we've seen Sarah Palmer, like, watching TV.

[02:04:44] Oh, yeah.

[02:04:44] Yes.

[02:04:45] But this is, like, our first interaction with Sarah Palmer, right?

[02:04:49] Like, talking to people.

[02:04:50] She's yelling about jerky at the supermarket and basically just kind of being like, remember how I had a really spooky, awful vibe in the original Twin Peaks?

[02:05:00] Like, that was fucking Barney the dinosaur compared to, like, what I'm like now.

[02:05:04] She's not doing great.

[02:05:05] Right.

[02:05:05] I have just, like, festered in the worst direction since then.

[02:05:09] There's no, like, horse to distract her anymore.

[02:05:11] And I think the best way to think about her is, like, yeah, whatever poison has been in her since she was a kid, because she's the kid in episode eight is sort of what's widely assumed, who the creature crawls into the mouth of, has just become, like, unspeakable.

[02:05:24] Yeah.

[02:05:25] Right?

[02:05:25] Right?

[02:05:25] It's her and the woman honking the car where I'm just like, get me out of here.

[02:05:29] Yeah.

[02:05:30] Like, I wish I wasn't watching this.

[02:05:31] And the sort of reintroduction of her watching the lions kill that animal is, like, maybe the worst thing I've seen in this where I was like, maybe I can't get through it.

[02:05:43] The return is it can be so funny.

[02:05:45] It can be so delightful.

[02:05:47] And then it can have sequences like that or, like, Richard Horne running over a kid and then the show not just cutting away from it but, like, being like, we're sticking with this.

[02:05:57] Yeah.

[02:05:57] Where you're like, I don't know if I ever want to watch more of this.

[02:06:00] Mm-hmm.

[02:06:00] Right?

[02:06:01] So, Phil was saying, he's like, my memory of watching that at the time was that it was mostly all really nice.

[02:06:05] And I was like, are you fucking kidding me?

[02:06:07] Yeah.

[02:06:07] But he was like, he had remembered all the, like, he's like, oh, Harry Dean Stanton stuff is so great.

[02:06:12] Yeah.

[02:06:12] And seeing Dern in there is so great.

[02:06:14] And Dougie is so great.

[02:06:15] And then it's like, well, yeah, but then every other scene is like the worst thing I've ever.

[02:06:18] Tremendous amount of suffering.

[02:06:19] Yeah.

[02:06:19] And evil.

[02:06:19] Had to sit through and consider.

[02:06:21] Yeah.

[02:06:21] In a real way.

[02:06:23] We have, right, the next thing is, right, Frank sitting down with Richard, sorry, with Ben and being like, so FYI, Richard is.

[02:06:32] The most evil person.

[02:06:33] Your grandson is a homicidal maniac.

[02:06:34] Like, and Ben being like, ah, fuck, yeah.

[02:06:39] Ben is so evil in the first season.

[02:06:40] And now when he's even modestly inconvenienced, I'm like, leave him alone.

[02:06:46] He's suffered enough.

[02:06:47] That, but I really think Ben's plot line in The Return, which is not, you know, not a lot is happening with him.

[02:06:54] He doesn't really get punished for the terrible, terrible things he does in Twin Peaks.

[02:07:00] You know, was he ever kind of brought to justice for like running drug smuggling and prostitution rings and like abusing young women probably.

[02:07:08] And it's like, no, he's just still there.

[02:07:09] Yeah.

[02:07:10] He's really bummed out clearly.

[02:07:11] Yeah.

[02:07:12] There's this kind of ambient, like, depression or evil around him to the point that he can almost hear it and is like asking Ashley Judd if she hears it too.

[02:07:21] I think that's a kind of hollowness that tends to set in with guys like this, though, where like people who like are just still alive.

[02:07:27] Right.

[02:07:27] In like middle age, they get some electricity with what they're from.

[02:07:31] From the crimes they're able to commit and the power they're able to accrue.

[02:07:34] And then it's like decades later, it's like, OK, so I got away with it.

[02:07:38] Right.

[02:07:38] What do I fucking do now?

[02:07:40] Yeah, but there's nothing to be gained from getting away with it.

[02:07:42] You just rot an inch.

[02:07:43] Yes.

[02:07:45] And I just love it.

[02:07:46] I just love that that's sort of what the show does with him.

[02:07:49] And of course, yes, I mean, Richard is like the ultimate, you know, punishment for him in a way of like you've only begotten like pure evil.

[02:08:00] So there's something for me that still does not compute about how many how much of the original West Side Story cast is still alive.

[02:08:09] Sure.

[02:08:09] Yeah.

[02:08:10] Right.

[02:08:10] And part of it's probably the Nally Wood died very young.

[02:08:13] But like knowing the cast members who died in between the original series and this and the people who died in between this and now and the fact that like Richard Boehm are still alive.

[02:08:23] I don't know if it's that I always think that West Side Story is older than it is, although it's certainly not new.

[02:08:28] It's pretty old.

[02:08:29] And part of it was that the actors were also young in it.

[02:08:32] Right.

[02:08:32] But but it is like a lot of them have lived very long, robust lives.

[02:08:37] Yeah.

[02:08:38] They're bolstered by being in a really good movie.

[02:08:41] That's it gave them lifeblood.

[02:08:43] It's George Chakiris.

[02:08:44] George Chakiris is still with us at the age of 90.

[02:08:46] Right.

[02:08:47] Rita Moreno is 94.

[02:08:49] She's 92.

[02:08:50] 92.

[02:08:50] Crushing it, obviously.

[02:08:51] Boehmer's like 90.

[02:08:52] Russ Tamblyn is 89 and Boehmer is 86.

[02:08:56] 86, a baby.

[02:08:58] That's crazy.

[02:08:59] It is crazy.

[02:09:00] How old was he in the movie?

[02:09:03] Gonna have to do some math here.

[02:09:05] He would have been about 21, 22.

[02:09:07] Wow.

[02:09:08] Math crave.

[02:09:10] But yes, I just think Ben's plot line is one of the cleverest uses of like the legacy impact of this show.

[02:09:18] This is all I'm saying.

[02:09:20] Should we talk about Audrey?

[02:09:21] Yeah.

[02:09:22] Yeah.

[02:09:22] So it's part 12 of 18, correct?

[02:09:29] That Audrey comes in.

[02:09:31] Audrey is suddenly introduced.

[02:09:33] Sherilyn Fenn, big actress.

[02:09:34] Yeah.

[02:09:35] On the original show.

[02:09:36] Humongous character.

[02:09:37] Big character.

[02:09:38] Yeah.

[02:09:39] Yeah.

[02:09:39] Tied up in a lot of stuff.

[02:09:40] Mm-hmm.

[02:09:40] She is married to one of the seven dwarves.

[02:09:44] Uh-huh.

[02:09:44] Or whatever.

[02:09:45] Like she's like stuck with this small, bald kind of accountant guy.

[02:09:50] Mm-hmm.

[02:09:51] And he's sleepy.

[02:09:51] And he's sleepy.

[02:09:53] Played by.

[02:09:53] Go ahead.

[02:09:54] No, I was gonna say they seem to have like a terrible marriage of convenience where there has been no passion between them in like decades.

[02:10:00] And he's like, why are you mad at me?

[02:10:03] And she's like openly kind of taunting him with.

[02:10:06] Who is Billy?

[02:10:07] Do we know who Billy is?

[02:10:08] She keeps saying I'm in love with Billy.

[02:10:09] I'm fucking Billy.

[02:10:10] So this is the whole thing with the Audrey plot.

[02:10:13] Yeah.

[02:10:13] It's fucking insane.

[02:10:14] We don't know what she's talking about.

[02:10:17] Like she refers to Billy.

[02:10:18] Billy, not to spoil.

[02:10:19] We never meet Billy.

[02:10:21] Okay.

[02:10:21] Like we don't really know what that is.

[02:10:23] Yeah.

[02:10:23] We don't really understand who Charlie is.

[02:10:26] Yeah.

[02:10:26] Like we know that he's her accountant and that they got married for some reason.

[02:10:31] Uh-huh.

[02:10:31] But I don't want to get too much into Audrey's total arc on this show.

[02:10:36] Uh-huh.

[02:10:37] But I do feel like this is one of the more representational.

[02:10:39] Like you have to like, this isn't quite reality.

[02:10:43] Yeah.

[02:10:43] I'm a little confused by it.

[02:10:47] At the very least.

[02:10:48] We were all confused.

[02:10:48] Why are we dis-

[02:10:49] He also references calling, she also references calling Tina.

[02:10:52] That's another character we like never see or understand who it is.

[02:10:55] Okay.

[02:10:55] You know?

[02:10:56] Right.

[02:10:56] Tina's the woman there.

[02:10:57] Yeah.

[02:10:58] You feel like you are.

[02:11:00] It's disassociating watching this scene.

[02:11:02] Like being like, I don't know.

[02:11:03] Have we seen Audrey before and I forgot about it?

[02:11:05] Right.

[02:11:05] Have we seen this character Charlie before and I forgot about it?

[02:11:08] What is this connected to?

[02:11:10] Also, her performance style is wildly different.

[02:11:13] Like this just feels like an almost unrecognizable character other than the fact that she still looks like Sherrilyn Fenn.

[02:11:20] Yes.

[02:11:21] You know, it's not just like circumstantial or like behavioral.

[02:11:25] It's like, I don't understand how this is the same person outside of like, I'm doing the math in my head of, are we supposed to fill in the gaps of there has been some sort of like horn family, like power causing inner soul rot thing?

[02:11:40] Yes.

[02:11:41] Um, I don't want to tell you.

[02:11:43] Okay.

[02:11:43] Well then.

[02:11:44] I don't really want to get into it, but like I want to know what you guys thought of the scene.

[02:11:48] I, I, I, I really didn't know what to make of it.

[02:11:51] Same.

[02:11:51] I really liked when he said he was so sleepy because I was like, I mean, this was me earlier this year.

[02:11:57] My brother and I would send pictures of Charlie to each other all the time.

[02:12:01] Yeah.

[02:12:01] Because there's just something like, imagine one day you woke up and you were just married to this sort of small man who's bald in his glasses and sits behind a desk.

[02:12:09] And you're just like ranting, like an insane person to him.

[02:12:12] And he's just like, you know, like it, it feels like some kind of like little Kafka story or whatever.

[02:12:19] Yes.

[02:12:20] I think he's giving like great.

[02:12:22] The guy's name is Clark Middleton.

[02:12:24] He's, he is sadly dead.

[02:12:25] He died.

[02:12:25] Oh, really?

[02:12:26] He died.

[02:12:28] I think of, of the West Nile virus.

[02:12:31] It's something very strange.

[02:12:33] He died during 2020 of the West Nile virus.

[02:12:37] Yes.

[02:12:37] That is why.

[02:12:37] Out of COVID.

[02:12:38] Like, I think he had some kind of arthritic thing like that, that had, you know, he's slightly shorter.

[02:12:43] He's like five, five or something.

[02:12:44] Yeah.

[02:12:44] But I don't think that is why, like that, that contributed to the West Nile thing.

[02:12:49] Like he just, I don't know.

[02:12:51] I don't know.

[02:12:51] I don't really know much about the West Nile virus.

[02:12:53] He's in Kill Bill.

[02:12:54] He is.

[02:12:55] Yeah.

[02:12:55] Yeah.

[02:12:55] I don't know who he is.

[02:12:57] He is.

[02:12:58] I want to say he's Michael Madsen's like right hand man when they're burying her.

[02:13:04] Yeah.

[02:13:04] No.

[02:13:05] Yes, you're right.

[02:13:06] Yeah.

[02:13:06] No real memory of that scene.

[02:13:07] Yeah.

[02:13:08] I mean, that's the, it's kind of the worst plot line in Kill Bill.

[02:13:12] No, I was going to say that's my favorite moment.

[02:13:15] Her escaping.

[02:13:16] Yeah.

[02:13:17] I think it's the most triumphant part of Kill Bill.

[02:13:19] I've seen Kill Bill volume one.

[02:13:21] Yeah.

[02:13:21] 20 times.

[02:13:22] Yes.

[02:13:22] And I think I've seen volume two like twice.

[02:13:24] They were both so seismic for me.

[02:13:26] Right.

[02:13:26] I, for some reason, I haven't, whatever, wanted to.

[02:13:31] I think two is more visceral in a way or more, it's more emotional.

[02:13:34] It's way more emotional.

[02:13:35] Right.

[02:13:35] And that's why I wanted to visit it last night.

[02:13:37] Right.

[02:13:37] Should we watch it?

[02:13:37] And there's this like masterwork of narrative construction around the Bud segment that kind

[02:13:43] of feels like, I don't know, a downswing.

[02:13:47] And then I think has this like incredible cathartic payoff.

[02:13:52] Right.

[02:13:52] Yeah.

[02:13:53] I mean, it's amazing.

[02:13:54] And I like the movie a lot.

[02:13:55] Yeah.

[02:13:56] I've never seen The Whole Bloody Affair.

[02:13:58] I haven't either.

[02:13:58] Yeah.

[02:13:59] It's not, it's not, I feel like it's rarely viewable.

[02:14:02] But it is, it exists.

[02:14:04] It does.

[02:14:04] It has been screened.

[02:14:05] Yeah.

[02:14:07] Yeah.

[02:14:07] Then were you about to say something?

[02:14:09] The Audrey scene.

[02:14:10] Yes.

[02:14:11] Thoughts on the Audrey scene.

[02:14:12] It's like bad theater.

[02:14:16] That's the thing.

[02:14:17] It's one of the only scenes in the show so far where I'm like, is this just not working?

[02:14:23] Not like there is a deliberate sense of like unusualness that is being cultivated that is

[02:14:29] out of touch with reality.

[02:14:31] But I'm like, is this scene actually failing at what it's trying to do or do I just not understand

[02:14:35] what it's trying to do?

[02:14:36] But it doesn't feel like necessarily out of left field for the character of Audrey to

[02:14:42] act like this.

[02:14:43] It's just a chunk.

[02:14:44] Because it reminded me of her over the topness of season one.

[02:14:50] Yes.

[02:14:51] Like referencing all of these men and you have to come to the bar with me and be my company.

[02:14:58] And I don't know.

[02:14:59] It just, it feels still like it makes sense to me.

[02:15:02] It doesn't feel completely random.

[02:15:04] There's a, yeah, there's a certain curdling, but it is bizarre when I don't, the show has

[02:15:10] held her back for this long, you know?

[02:15:14] And it's like, oh, this is the first time we're going to see this character in like decades.

[02:15:18] Exactly.

[02:15:18] One of the last legacy characters to show up.

[02:15:22] Right.

[02:15:22] And then the couple episodes leading up to this are connecting like, okay, that's her son.

[02:15:27] That's right.

[02:15:27] The whole family's coming in and you're like, man, they've been holding back on Audrey.

[02:15:30] This is going to be meaningful.

[02:15:31] And then you have this 10 minute scene that feels interminable where I can't quite get

[02:15:36] what's going on.

[02:15:37] And you're like caught in this loop where you're just like, can someone explain to me what's

[02:15:40] going on?

[02:15:40] And instead she's just having this circular conversation with this like stone wall of a person

[02:15:44] who then takes a phone call.

[02:15:45] Right.

[02:15:46] And we don't hear the other side of the conversation.

[02:15:47] That's crazy.

[02:15:48] Right.

[02:15:48] And then it's like, I'm not going to tell you what I heard.

[02:15:50] Which let's say like right before this, if not immediately before this, but in the, you

[02:15:56] know, the chunks before this, in this very episode, you have Cooper and Berenice Merlot.

[02:16:03] Someone who I was so convinced was going to be a major star.

[02:16:05] And I feel like has weirdly kind of disappeared.

[02:16:07] She's gorgeous.

[02:16:08] She's also just incredible.

[02:16:10] But this like kind of extended weird David Lynch comedy routine of like behavior being

[02:16:15] drawn out in a sort of inexplicable way, which then goes into Alfred and I said Cooper.

[02:16:24] Jane Addams.

[02:16:25] Yeah.

[02:16:25] You said Cole.

[02:16:25] You said Cole.

[02:16:26] You mean Cole.

[02:16:27] They're sort of like check in on each other and what's going on with Denise.

[02:16:32] They've been tracking her phone.

[02:16:34] They saw the Vegas text and whatever.

[02:16:35] But that conversation is going on with these like protracted silences.

[02:16:40] Right.

[02:16:40] Where it's a very hard to read the energy of what's going on, but it all feels within

[02:16:44] Lynch's power.

[02:16:46] You meant Diane, not Denise.

[02:16:47] I'm sorry.

[02:16:48] It's fine.

[02:16:48] It's fine.

[02:16:48] Denise is David Accompany's character.

[02:16:50] Too many names.

[02:16:51] There's a lot of names.

[02:16:52] There's a lot of characters.

[02:16:52] Yeah.

[02:16:52] The show has a lot of characters.

[02:16:54] I want to say that.

[02:16:55] The Audrey stuff almost felt like a scene from Invitation to Love when you would get those

[02:16:59] little snippets.

[02:17:00] Yeah.

[02:17:00] Earlier on and it has that kind of almost classic soap opera scene, but then the longer it goes

[02:17:06] on.

[02:17:07] Yes.

[02:17:07] The more increasingly upsetting and unnerving it gets.

[02:17:11] And it makes me grateful that I was going to power through all of this over the summer

[02:17:14] when I was sick.

[02:17:15] And then people told me specifically not to watch The Return.

[02:17:18] It might make your brain go crazy.

[02:17:20] My brain was going crazy.

[02:17:21] Does it feel like something you want to indulge?

[02:17:22] Like you don't want to give to a feverish brain.

[02:17:25] Yeah.

[02:17:25] Because I'd go insane.

[02:17:26] I think so.

[02:17:27] Yeah.

[02:17:29] But this scene goes on for like over 10 minutes.

[02:17:31] Yes.

[02:17:33] And has no resolution.

[02:17:35] Inscrutable.

[02:17:35] Right.

[02:17:35] Has no resolution.

[02:17:36] And then I feel like the next time we see her is in the following episode where it's

[02:17:39] basically, it feels like another installment of this conversation.

[02:17:42] Correct.

[02:17:42] Another installment of the strange, her being like, I have to go do this thing involving

[02:17:48] a bunch of names that, you know, we don't know who I'm talking about.

[02:17:52] Tina, Billy.

[02:17:53] Yeah.

[02:17:53] And she just starts to break down and he's like, do you want to end that story?

[02:17:57] And she's like, what story?

[02:17:59] The little girl who lived down the lane.

[02:18:01] And then again, it's just like, okay.

[02:18:03] And cut to the roadhouse and we'll have a musical performance.

[02:18:05] Chromatics.

[02:18:05] But also two characters we haven't seen before having an argument about whether a guy they

[02:18:09] know is cheating on a woman they know.

[02:18:11] It's so weird.

[02:18:12] Anyway, there will be more on this is the only thing I will say.

[02:18:15] Okay.

[02:18:15] But it's not going to be like, uh, incredibly straightforward.

[02:18:19] Well, weird.

[02:18:20] Cause I was expecting that at this point.

[02:18:21] No, I just, I really, uh, I'm, I'm feeling a little on edge about this.

[02:18:26] And if it's, I reserve judgment until I see the end.

[02:18:31] Uh, yes.

[02:18:32] Um, okay.

[02:18:33] Episode 13, I will say I would call the arm wrestling episode.

[02:18:36] Yes.

[02:18:36] Right.

[02:18:37] Is that, that's the best way to describe this one.

[02:18:38] This is heavy on Mr. C.

[02:18:40] Mm-hmm.

[02:18:41] Um, it's, uh, basically him going to like a goon lair.

[02:18:46] Mm-hmm.