What Women Want with Lola Kirke

[00:00:00] Blank Check with Griffin and David, Blank Check with Griffin and David, Don't know what to say or to express All you need to know is that the name of the show is Blank Check

[00:00:20] What's the difference between a wife and a podcast? After 10 years a podcast still sucks, huh? That was a heartbreaking moment. Terrible. Terrible. I mean, that's how the film sets up this character who's gonna be not really redeemed by the end of the movie.

[00:00:37] I liked that he was fired. I liked that too. Spoiler alert. He is fired, but is he fired? Not to spoil the last thing of it, right? He's hired as her boyfriend. That was the implication. I think so.

[00:00:50] Because I was worried that she fired him and then he's like, and she's like, oh, no, come on. No, that was such a relief about that movie because as somebody who is a woman and is also as a woman, I hate that sentence.

[00:01:04] Look, this movie is about the fact that men and women are so different. You're speaking of an illusion right now. We gotta own our languages here.

[00:01:12] What I mean to say is that I've never really seen a movie to this day about a woman's struggle with her success being something that is ultimately a triumph at the end. Sure, right. Like it always, like even working girl. Her career triumphs at the end.

[00:01:29] Yeah, and there's this new understanding that she's gonna get her job back and she fires the guy. But he can still be her boyfriend.

[00:01:38] She can have that kind of, she can have both of those things, but it does mean that he'll have to be like a stay at home dad or something. That's a good point. It's a shame the movie isn't about her. Right.

[00:01:49] But there is even like that section where they sort of bond. She talks about the fact that she blames herself for like ruining her marriage because of her career and everything. Right. The movie kind of offers a corrective to that. Right. That's like, no, that guy sucked.

[00:02:01] Yeah, you never see that. That's not on you. Yeah, that's true. I just recently watched A Star is Born, the Barbara Streisand shun. And like that's another movie about a woman being successful that ultimately like kills the man. Yeah, does. Like yeah. Every time. Every time.

[00:02:18] It's like, and it was such a relief to me as somebody who wants to continue to find success in my professional life to watch a film that offers this alternative narrative that's like that actually can work.

[00:02:29] And like you can be with somebody who might actually really love that about you. Like he does say that in the film when they're at that bar. Is what women want really good? Is that our conclusion?

[00:02:38] I'm now more in favor of this movie than I ever have been. That is a good point. You're saying that's like a one to a one and a half stars? Is that what? Well, I'll say this.

[00:02:48] If you know, based on nothing other than a reading of her work, I gotta think that's kind of an Nancy Meyers influence. I mean, I was thinking about her too because all of those movies that I just listed are both of those movies.

[00:03:02] A Star is Born and Working Girl, which are about like, you know, successful women are directed by men. And I was like, this is such a, you know, what women want offers such a distinctly female or feminine perspective,

[00:03:16] which is that that's actually like all of the intricacies and the nuance of how difficult that success can actually be. Yeah. Like for a Star is Born and Working Girl just, and we're only using those as comparisons. The three films about women. The three films about successful women.

[00:03:32] It's just the pursuit of success. That movie, it's not about what happens once you actually have it. Right. And Jurassic World is the other example. But I think- I haven't seen it. Well, in Jurassic World she's hit the apex and it's all downhill from there.

[00:03:47] And everyone tells her that she's making a mistake because she doesn't want to have a boyfriend and kids. Right. And she's wildly successful running a dinosaur park. But not that we should keep talking about that movie on this podcast because this is a podcast about filmographies.

[00:04:01] Directors who have massive success early on in their career and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion products they want. And this was the passion project? This is the one that gives her the blank check. Oh, and what was the passion project?

[00:04:13] Well, the rest of her career, but especially her next movie, something's got to give is like this. She's writing and directing now because this is- she didn't write this movie. This is the one she didn't write. You know, she gets to hire who she- right?

[00:04:25] That's like her project about her obviously. The rest of her films feel like she's a weird example of someone who got to make really personal, really big budget movies in the studio system. Some of that has to do with just her taste lining up with commercial sensibilities.

[00:04:40] But something's got to give is like not a movie you would think would be easily greenlit.

[00:04:45] Even if you have Jack Nicholson, Diane Keaton, heard the two biggest stars in that age bracket, you're like just kind of like a modest sort of love story about two old people in a house. There's no supernatural moments.

[00:04:55] No, no, although I have a read on that movie that I will debut next week that it is somewhat supernatural. It's a sequel to Wolf. Yeah, because all the white like and Diane Keaton's in all white. You think she's an angel?

[00:05:05] Well, like the movie begins with Jack Nicholson having a heart attack and then he's trapped in that Hampton's house and Diane Keaton is sort of swanning around it. And it's all white and he's like reckoning with himself as a person.

[00:05:16] Like is he in like purgatory? Is that what this movie's about? You're really blowing the load for next week's episode. I'll get into that. So we're not talking about that. OK, yeah. Sorry, I just watched something.

[00:05:25] This is the term that was recently sort of coined by by Lux Alptraum or past and future guest was The Guarantor. Like this is the movie that gives her the checkbook. OK. Because this at the time of its release hit the highest grossing romantic comedy ever made. Yes.

[00:05:41] So number two. Almost three years later. My big fat freak wedding. Yeah. Oh my God, my big I'm so impressed by my big fat freak wedding. I know. I think I'm done. The little movie.

[00:05:50] My big fat freak wedding is a rom-com but it's also like it's like a family com too. Right? Like this is like a rom-com. Yeah, right. And it performed in such an insane way. Of course we're talking about the films of Nancy Meyers.

[00:06:01] This mini series is called What Else But Something's Podcast. Right. And today we're talking about what one want. Now you see the level of humor on this show. Oh yeah. I mean you've known Griffin since he was what age?

[00:06:13] Eleven and he's had the exact same sense of humor. I was told you were a lit because we met in 2002. We're at that threshold point now past the threshold point where we've known each other for longer than we haven't known each other. Yeah.

[00:06:27] Which is a weird thing to think about. That's really scary. Like the vast majority of our lives we've known each other and have just been causing each other anxiety and grief. Yeah, like when I was ten minutes late today and you acted like I was.

[00:06:37] Well, because I'm never late to anything. You're never late for anything. I can't tolerate it Lola. Griffin has been late to conservatively say 80% of our podcast recordings over three years. I have not once but twice been two hours late to an episode.

[00:06:51] Isn't it a relief though when someone is later than you? It's always so good when you run and run and then you walk and you're like, oh no one's here. Oh god. It's all gone. The greatest feeling. Our guest today, a long time friend.

[00:07:05] A wildly successful actress and musician. And woman. Super star and woman. Let's number one credit. She's a woman. Listen up folks. We got a lady for this one. Lola Kirk is here. Hey Lola. No one. Oh hi. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. No one's clapping.

[00:07:24] So I had mentioned you. We had Becky Drysdale on a previous episode. Oh my god. We talked about summer camp which everyone loved. It was the most popular thing that has ever happened on this podcast. People asked for more of it. Really? No, absolutely not. They were furious.

[00:07:36] They protested the streets. Why am I listening to these fuckers talk about summer camp? But your name came up and then people were like, I didn't know they were friends. She's got to be on the show.

[00:07:44] So then I reached out to you and sent you like a whole long list of like the next 30 things we were going to do. And you were like, I don't care. Pick any movie.

[00:07:52] So I was like, I feel like you're going to be angriest about what women want. Oh my god. On the contrary. Which I'm very surprised by because I think David and I have both been sort of dreading talking about this movie.

[00:08:03] Like we want to talk about Nancy Meyers. Not dreading, but this is the, this is, you know. What did you guys think was so offensive about the film? Offensive. It's more like the film is about a man who after a couple of three electrocutions. Yeah.

[00:08:22] Finally comes to the realization that like women are people too. Like that's about as far as he gets. Which is just a bit of a tough watch in a two hour 10 minute movie. Right.

[00:08:32] It's just sort of like a triumph from the human spirit that comes to understand that like women have thoughts and feelings too. Yeah. The other thing is it's one of those movies that I would file under the like boys will be boys comedies. Sure.

[00:08:45] Where it's just like everything that's kind of shitty about masculinity is sort of presented as a joke. Even though the movie does try to like argue that he needs to get out of those habits. It still presents it as like kind of charming for most of it. Sure.

[00:09:00] I have a different view. That's fine and that's great. But I do think it's like she I think she knows or she wants to argue for the charmingness of such a person like even when it sucks. Right? Like she you know Nancy Meyers.

[00:09:15] I didn't see it like that. Like these sort of like jerky guys like. Sure. Because they are charming but I also think that like it is it always kind of like blew my mind how how rampant like misogyny. Actually was. Sure.

[00:09:30] And like I I've talked about this a lot. I'm not sure if we talked about this on the last podcast we did together or did a podcast but then it was written into whatever the believer.

[00:09:39] But like growing up in like progressive New York circles going to schools like the ones that Griffin and I did and and camps like the one that Griffin and I went to.

[00:09:51] I always kind of like imagine that everybody was just like really thinking alike and then I like grew up right and I also realized that that bubble was like completely misogynistic.

[00:10:05] That we never even the bubble itself wasn't like just because everybody liked like you know going to the MoMA and like watching like New Wave films. Yeah. Cool people. Right.

[00:10:17] And like you know not wearing bras didn't mean that like people were actually forward thinking or or or conscientious about race class and gender. Like they weren't up and then at all. Yes. So I guess like it's it's it's just weird how how everywhere it is.

[00:10:38] Like even just walking into this building just now I was like struggling with my umbrella and opening the door and and this guy this was amazing. It was like something out of what women want.

[00:10:47] This guy walked past me and he was like you know just so you know I would have held the door for you because there were two other guys. That's two other guys that didn't. And I was like you know yeah it's 2018. Like he thinks that's charming.

[00:10:59] He actually didn't hold the door for me. He's just sort of announcing. Yeah. He's retroactively saying that he would have been chivalrous with to me. Yeah. But like wasn't. And I guess so so I think that like Nancy Meyers character whatever his name is the. Nick Marshall.

[00:11:17] Nick Marshall. What a name. Man Manorsen. I think that there's a lot of acceptance in the film that like this is just the way that like powerful. Man Manorsen you're a running. Yeah. Running too.

[00:11:28] And what I think when I the first 20 minutes of the movie before he can read women's minds. I was just like wow this guy is like the girl that everyone wants to sleep with. Or this guy is the one that everyone wants to sleep with.

[00:11:39] And then when you start hearing women's thoughts. I thought it was so cool that everyone who smiles at him actually is like so upset by his you know. Yes. That's a yes. That is a very good point.

[00:11:52] And there is something to the fact that like even in the years 2000 this movie is about misogyny. Like even if it always isn't always gracefully handled. It's pushing the envelope.

[00:12:03] At least a film that's like tackling the shit which I have to imagine like this is the only film that she didn't write. Yes no it wasn't written by her written by Josh Goldsmith Kathy Yuspa and Diane Drake.

[00:12:15] Who go on to be sort of like high concept you know fluctuating between high concept comedies and sitcoms.

[00:12:20] They're sort of just like you know journeymen I think comedy writer folks and you know I'm sure she had a hand in like sort of reshaping it but it's not her story to begin with.

[00:12:31] It's a very high concept premise but you do feel like that's what you gain from having a female director here is that she actually kind of understands the like toxicity of this sort of culture.

[00:12:44] But the appeal to I mean that's why I think Nancy Meyers is a genius. It's not just like a nightmare movie about like how horrible he is like she knows he's appealing to.

[00:12:54] I just also think that it's one of the first movies that really like reveal mainstream movies that reveals the woman's perspective so so massively like I recently rewatched high fidelity.

[00:13:05] I was with a group of friends and we were all talking about how much we loved high fidelity whenever it was out in theaters a million years ago. And then we were like let's hear this movie.

[00:13:14] Oh fascinating and then we watched it and within 15 minutes we were like appalled.

[00:13:20] Well that's a movie about an appalling person exactly as is this yes yes yes and his relationship to every woman in that film is just like so upsetting like the way that he just is like you know Catherine's Ada Jones actually sucks. There's nothing great about her whatsoever.

[00:13:37] And like Lily Taylor is like you know everyone is just so reduced and in this film I think you get to see this dynamic side of women in a man's world. And yeah so I do think that that is the importance of having women filmmakers in general.

[00:13:56] I mean it's so unsurprising to me that we are about that we are you know facing the possibility of having Roe vs Wade overturned that reproductive rights are constantly at risk and that you know what is it something like 90% of the top highest grossing movies in the past 10 years are directed by men.

[00:14:17] We have no women's perspectives anywhere and so that's why I was even surprised.

[00:14:22] I don't know you know high fidelity ultimately was surprising because I was like oh wow as a kid I thought that this I wanted to grow up to be Catherine's Ada Jones when I saw that movie like that was that was the hope and then watching it now is like wow as a 10 year old girl like that was what I wanted that was what I thought would be like one of the girlfriends in this movie totally I thought that some loser like John.

[00:14:47] You know you know you know you know I had an abortion and didn't tell you about it I think right like it's like yeah and yeah you know all this stuff completely emotionally unavailable right you really.

[00:14:58] I don't know man I've seen just run through women anyway and at the end of the movie his girlfriend is like you know you objectively sucked yeah you cheated on me.

[00:15:08] You know I had an abortion and didn't tell you about it I think right like it's like yeah and yeah you know all this stuff completely emotionally unavailable right you really you're sort of an idiot you have all your relationship. All the time like.

[00:15:21] Failing record store right you're like a junkie record store my dad just died and I'd run and it's between me just sitting here feeling miserable and getting back together with you and I've decided to get back to.

[00:15:31] I think that's the best scene that's why I love that movie so it's like that's the ending where he's like okay and the movie's just like.

[00:15:36] Right you know well that's I guess the talk goes David we like talking we do we talk a lot this is a space in which we talk about this recording studio in the space of the podcast that's our platform that's true.

[00:15:48] So I mean our sponsors today talk space feel right in line with us make sense that it makes a lot of sense company the Lexi message and license therapist from anywhere would sponsor this show yes because all you need to computer with an internet connection much like.

[00:16:03] Listening to this podcast all you need is a computer with an internet connection right so like maybe you're someone who hosts a podcast with a good friend who's really bad at responding to emails and text sure and you're already on the phone waiting for his non responses.

[00:16:17] Sounds like science fiction right you just whip over to talk space and go like can I talk to you about this abusive work relationship I'm in exactly and it's like if like this friend you have they seem to have really tight schedule will talk space therapy is really easy you just send your therapist a message you get off something off your chest whenever you need to you talk about.

[00:16:34] Talk about challenges at work about life about a certain friend with the initials GN right no commutes no talk space isn't going to get back to you like four hours later and go like hey sorry I got really deep into Kingdom hearts.

[00:16:48] Text like two stops away right and actually he's like maybe six stops away or like more often it is two stops but he's not saying they're like express stops and there's a lot of space in between when you think about it's actually nine stops like he's still in Manhattan but technically it's two stops away because.

[00:17:04] It's only two Q stops and you just got to remember therapy isn't just about venting your innermost thoughts are digging into childhood memories or friends travel plans it's about practical everyday strategies for stress management and living a happier life and so having a therapist helps you you know get through that right person to talk.

[00:17:21] I'm talking as someone who's incredibly happy and has no stress in his life I'm saying I wouldn't know what you would use this service for but I think he should give it a shot yeah so you can chill is downtown griffin now exactly so the talk space platform has 2000 licensed therapists.

[00:17:34] You're experiencing addressing life challenges that we all face 2000 so to match for the perfect therapist for a fraction of the price of traditional therapy go to talkspace.com slash check and use the code check to get 45 bucks off your first month and show your support for this show David I'll say that's the one thing that sounds annoying about this you have to send them a check in the mail you have to write them a check in order to pay for this can you do it off your phone or something no you just go to talkspace.com slash check and you use the code.

[00:18:01] I love the movie working girls so much because and I think when I saw that film I was blown away that in the 80s they were making like movies about empowered women because I do think that that movie really is and I was like what happened between 1983 I think that movie came out.

[00:18:22] 88 88 what happened between 1988 and like now that like we don't that we're fighting to see movies about women being successful yeah I think they're number things I mean I know I my brothers on the podcast for one this genre is dead right I mean it's sort of.

[00:18:41] Sort of romcom genre like which working girl is to but those are both sort of movies that are stealthily about other things while having a romance at their core and then there's the parallel.

[00:18:50] Genre which working girl falls into nine to five falls into I would even argue the intern falls into which is like broadcast broadcast which they're they're sort of workplace comedy starring right and now Hollywood like really.

[00:19:03] Really show are you interested in making a TV show like you know what I mean like they just like right I think they put those things on the TV be I think it's one of the really negative side effects of like the globalization of the film industry right is that shit just doesn't translate to other.

[00:19:20] Right it sounds fine but does China want to watch this right because a humor is culturally specific and it's always been like comedies don't translate as well to other countries as well as.

[00:19:32] Any other genre and then you add in like workplace dynamics and like sexual dynamics and all those things become even more cultural that they have a hard time translating except for movie like this that did really fucking well overseas and also got like there's a Chinese remake of this movie right and I think they announced they're going to go.

[00:19:49] I mean it's a high concept he learns what is the brain the brains but the point is yeah great father and that part to me was really moving.

[00:20:00] We're going to talk about okay I'm going to get into it I'm looking at right here like the top ten romantic comedies of all time and of the ten two of them are directed by women.

[00:20:12] Which one right it's this and the proposal are the only two what's the proposal Ryan Reynolds and Sandra Bullock yeah and Fletcher right Romley's favorite movie of all time.

[00:20:23] But it's my big favorite wedding pitch pretty woman something about Mary crazy rich Asians sex in city one runaway bride knocked up all directed by men so you go like this is a genre that is usually derisively referred to as chick flicks and they're all defined by men.

[00:20:37] Yeah mostly male writers to or male right male directors reinterpreting female writers words and all the moments that are good in this movie are just like perspective shift stuff that Nancy Myers clearly brought in.

[00:20:50] That I don't think she was like I'm gonna fucking revolutionize like you know like within this movie like Trojan horse like some subversive gender politics I think she's just a woman she comes from that base of experience and on set she'd be like well you should do this.

[00:21:04] But it's also like a really smart way to keep it mainstream and deliver subversive message yes I think so I'm not I don't know if it's so simple as I'm just a woman I think there's something quite genius about it which is like.

[00:21:17] Let's take the most like you know blockbuster genre besides an action film that we can like a money making genre and let's like you know put in all of these really high concept ideas which is that like newsflash women have feelings and are treated like that at all.

[00:21:34] I mean this is a really good take cuz it's like everything that I resent about this movie you're kind of empowering but I thought it was so empowering I don't want to like sound like I'm belittling her by being like oh she's not choosing to do that stuff it's just comes from her base of experience but it is like the big reason why I think you want diversity in the voices behind studio films.

[00:21:55] Because you see these moments where it's just like well that's just second nature and you realize that like 95% of movies ever made have been made by the same type of people exactly not even just like the same race and the same gender orientation you know and all of that sort of stuff but even just like some more socio economic classes similar backgrounds you know.

[00:22:15] You just like when you see films made by other people you're like oh that's an interesting thing I've never seen in a movie before.

[00:22:20] I think she's also always been and still is like someone who's good at taking a very famous male star with like a real like you know defined movie star image Mel Gibson I'm thinking Nicholson and D'Niro thinking about Baldwin I mean yeah and making them incredibly vulnerable on screen like she's good at getting them and this is the least of those but still like you know Gibson's vulnerable like you know and she she tries to like make him a little more of a person by the end of it.

[00:22:47] I was surprised by how vulnerable she does successfully make him in the last 30 minutes because that's the whole other element of this movie is just the Mel Gibson thing. He's just also a little maniacal like he's intense.

[00:22:57] Well yeah I mean there is also I think you know I think that the patriarchy negatively affects men just as much as it does and I think that there are these standards of how we think that we need to behave based on these patriarchal rules and I think that it's there is this not problematic but like maybe questionable moment where we're going to be like

[00:23:17] when like his you know we normalize being emotionally available and aware as something that is feminine and Marisa Tomei's only explanation for why this person could know what she wants and not like her is that he's gay. That's the worst scene in the movie.

[00:23:33] It's a pretty bad scene. I mean she's so good in the movie that she makes it happen. But that also makes it doubly upsetting how they treat her. You're like Oscar winner Marisa Tomei is playing this role in this movie. I know I was named after.

[00:23:47] My parents didn't name me until 2010. Yeah they were waiting 2000. You were girl three. It was girl three it's true and then they were like Lola we want you to grow up and be just like that lonely wannabe actress in what women want.

[00:24:03] They really kind of put a witch's curse on you. I know it's true. I mean Lola is a name that really just has this ridiculous. I mean first of all it's short for Dolores which means pain I think or like suffering in Spanish. Right.

[00:24:20] Delore and every character that's named. Sorrows. Sorrows thank you. I'm just thinking about it's quite a thing to name. It's always some like vampy girl. Whatever Lola was except for the king song. No well yeah but she's a vamp too. Right right.

[00:24:39] Okay but then I'm thinking it's a William Inge play. It maybe come back Lil Sheba. She's like the sad wife of an alcoholic. Yeah. Oh so anyway there's always something about like the name Lola just to speak of characters is like about like this.

[00:24:56] She's like a show girl who's like in pain. Well that's you go to two famous Lola songs which like songs can really do my name. Lola was a show girl. Oh that too. There's three. But you go like whatever Lola wants is literally like Satan's Temptress. Yeah.

[00:25:11] Right in Damn Yankees and then the king song is like she tried to trick me. She's still a Temptress. Right right but it's like with the added element of like how dare they. Right right and then she's like a show girl at the Copacabana. Right.

[00:25:25] So thanks mom and dad. It was ultimately. You and your siblings were or you and your sisters at least were all named after like classic rock songs. Right. I don't know if they knew that. Oh really?

[00:25:37] I always thought it was conscious but I always thought it was kind of funny that they like removed. Actually we were all named after socialites. Is that actually so true? So Domino is named after Domino Harvey who wasn't yet I think a bounty hunter.

[00:25:52] I think she was just like Lawrence Harvey's cute daughter. The subject of the film Domino starring Cure Nightly. Not the O Domino Fender. My name is Domino Harvey. You remember that trailer where they just played that like six hours? It was literally just that. Of course yeah. Yeah.

[00:26:08] Yeah. Wow. Future gas. So crazy that you know that. Future gas. Okay so Domino was that Jemima was named after Jemima Khan. Okay right. Who was Jemima Goldsmith who was just like a beautiful girl riding horses when my mom was younger too.

[00:26:22] And I was named after, I mean I guess we could call her a socialite. I was named after Lola Schnobel. Really? Yeah. She was like a three inch novels daughter. She's not that much older than you.

[00:26:33] I know my mom met her when she was like a little kid playing on the beach. All of these girls were like. So your mom would just meet like a cool kid and be like great name. Yeah I'm taking that name.

[00:26:40] Because I always thought it was like the King's Song, Jemima Surrender. I know. I think that was the urban legend that went around our high school because that was like pretty dramatic that was like they named their daughters after Rock Song. I know.

[00:26:51] I like that better than being named after socialites because again here's the thing about that. I really informed what my expectations should be as a woman. Like grow up to be famous because of your associations with other famous people instead of grow up to be successful. Sure.

[00:27:10] Grow up to be Catherine Zeta-Jones who's beloved because she's awful instead of grow up to be you know. You're the most compelling person at the party. Yeah. Exactly. That's your social currency. Yeah.

[00:27:22] I'll say I mean I think one of the reasons I struggle with this movie is that although it is sort of inducing a lot of this behavior, it is one of these movies that very didactically goes like these are men and these are women. There's that problem. Yeah.

[00:27:35] Which I do have with it. The way that they draw that line where it's like everyone assumes he must be gay or makes gay jokes or they put him in a gay situation because he's emotional now.

[00:27:42] It also just has this concept in the middle of it where it's I mean we just have to deal with a lot of scenes of a woman thinks something and he repeats it and you just sort of watch it happen over and over again. Yeah.

[00:27:51] And like that's enough for him to sort of like you know but which everyone in the room. Right. Like not only is that a little annoying. It's also just a little boring to watch it. Like I'm just talking about like I want to be entertained here.

[00:28:00] Like you know. Right. And he just sort of succeeds off. I mean I'll get to this in a second but I feel like you know I was a very emotional kid. I'm still an emotional person but I was a very emotional kid and I like Yes.

[00:28:14] None of you have any knowledge or understanding of that. No. I think of you as calm sort of robotic. Well adjusted. Well adjusted. Yeah. That's the key line. Like I'm not a robotic thing. Yeah. But like movies like this even if they're trying to sort of like

[00:28:29] criticize the behavior do make it go like well this is women and this is men. And I as a kid who like only understood movies like they were the only codecs I have for understanding the world always felt fucking weird because I didn't feel like the male characters.

[00:28:45] So as part of your like both of your problem with this film is that what is the representation of men in the film you feel as to like no I got no I got no beef with that.

[00:28:57] I just think even if it is trying to make the arguments against men and for women it still is a little didactic and how it represents them. Right. And I feel like this is one of those movies where even though

[00:29:09] they were damning him I would sit there and go like well am I like fucked up because I'm not like this like when he starts acting emotional like that's how I feel like I am all the time. Oh my God. Well I mean I feel that way.

[00:29:21] Which talks about how like the patriarchy like affects men too like I think about how many movies fucked me up where I was just like I guess this is what a boy's supposed to do. Yeah. I mean it's so. But I think it's not about the prison.

[00:29:32] I'm kidding I'm joking. Oh my God you got it. You didn't like that. You didn't like that at all. One comedy point. I think that that's really important. Yeah. Like I definitely struggle with feeling like square or not cool because there are certain things that I like morally

[00:29:52] or creatively won't do. Like I was recently all of my life I felt a struggle between like I don't know being a shitty person or not a shitty I'm trying to think how I should frame this. Like. A monster. No it's like. Serial killer.

[00:30:11] What's the term you're looking for? I'm trying to like I remember growing up in there like I was a very obedient kid but I also like wanted to do a lot of bad things so my way of like. Where were you in the sibling? The baby.

[00:30:25] But you know I think that I aired on the side of just like hanging out with people who I knew would do worse things than me because I would never be brave enough to be like let's steal mom's Xanax and like you know have a threesome.

[00:30:39] I also think I mean not to like you know stop me if I'm at a line here but you would like talk about this that there was like the complex of like your sisters had been wilder when

[00:30:51] they were your age and you didn't want to like fulfill the prophecy. Totally I think that that's true but I also think that I was very confused about what was expected of me as a woman who wanted to be powerful and free but also wanted to have

[00:31:06] like meaningful relationships and like you know and be loving and loved. Because those characters and movies are usually presented as like callous and ultimately get their come up in. Right like you're either this like vampy wild woman who cares nothing for other people's feelings or this like ingenue

[00:31:21] essentially and so I think that this is like an apt thing to talk about because I think that these characters and these notions and movies do deeply affect us in our personal lives. Yeah and I think to this day I still struggle with like what

[00:31:35] character should I be in the world and like I think that I was talking to my friend recently about she's married and she's having a baby. Humblebrag what? Humblebrag go on. Sorry I have friends who are really grown up. She's humble bragging getting married. Not them.

[00:31:51] He regards to them. Humblebrag to you. She's married and she's having a baby and we were talking about like this Joni Mitchell like archetype of woman like Joni Mitchell to me is like always writing about like running away taking another lover and like

[00:32:05] ultimately being alone and I've always been like wow if I want to be cool I have to do all of those things. And my friend was like you know that that's internalized misogyny too. Right. And I was like how is that internalized misogyny and

[00:32:17] she said to me that like these notions of like that freedom means like being alone and like sowing your wild oats and basically fucking everybody that you possibly can. Those are male notions and because the free woman or the empowered woman is like kind of a phenomenon

[00:32:33] essentially of the last like 15 years. Right. Something that's been growing over this 20th century but really booming in the 21st century. I think that we understand that being powerful means like adopting what has meant power for men. And also that it's like this sense of like those

[00:32:51] things are compartmentalized and if you want to be a wild woman that's fine but know that the tax you pay is you end up alone. Totally. Like there's an algorithm. Like it ends at the same like you know. And that's why I was actually really relieved

[00:33:05] when I was watching the emotional struggles of Helen Hunt's character in that film because it was I don't think I've ever seen a successful woman character like articulate that like she doesn't want to be left because she's successful. Sure. Yes.

[00:33:23] She wants to be loved instead of hated for that thing. She wants to have a home. Yeah. She wants both of those things. She has plans for her future. And she we imagine gets some version of that at the end of it and like I just you know

[00:33:36] I didn't really see that represented in movies that I watched when I was younger. Yeah. And I feel like watching this movie my memory of it and also like rewatching last night was like OK the first half is like a weird Mel Gibson high concept.

[00:33:52] Like men are like this women are like this comedy and then the second half just becomes this sort of like rom-com romance between the two of them. And my struggle was always I don't think they have a lot

[00:34:02] of chemistry and I don't want to see her end up with him because he sucks. Sure. But I if you view it through the prism of almost like there's a narrative handoff and it becomes about just sort of her internal life

[00:34:13] which you get to see because he's hearing her thoughts and you get to hear her thoughts by proxy the movie does work better. I'll say I mean I just remember in high school a friend of ours who I will not name told me once that she was always

[00:34:27] in class she wouldn't answer questions because she didn't want to seem as smart as she was because she thought it would be intimidating to boys. It's a classic phenomenon. Yeah. Which is just like documented in all education. The most depressing shit in the world.

[00:34:39] Can I actually say just to add to that in college one day I woke up I was a freshman and I was miserable and I woke up and I couldn't like sit up in bed. I had what I found out later was a bruised coccyx. Sure tailbone.

[00:34:54] You guys know what the coccyx is? It's a tailbone. Yeah. Oddly named a coccyx. And I went to the doctor who told me that and she was like yeah it actually happens a lot to freshman girls because they have such low self-esteem

[00:35:06] that they slouch and they sit incorrectly in class. Really? That sucks. Yeah isn't that horrific? Patriarchy breaking coccyxes. The plural of coccyx. Coccyx? Yeah. So this movie I mean let's talk about this one. I saw it's an icon picture which was Mel Gibson's production company.

[00:35:28] Oh that's what that was. Which is so weird because it's still running. That logo feels like it was designed just to be in front of Passion of the Christ. I know but no one started with Hamlet. That was his first you know and it was

[00:35:42] Braveheart all his you know big movies. Wait can you guys update me on Mel Gibson because my boyfriend seemed to be like oh Mel like have a much better clearer picture of it than I did. That made that movie even more problematic.

[00:35:55] David literally right before he showed up to write an article about him. He just got hired to make a big movie so my boss was like what's basically it's the same question. Where are we at with Mel Gibson? Yeah tell me. So you know you got Mel Gibson,

[00:36:08] Australian actually American but most Australia is a boy. He does have a great Australian accent. I mean American accent sorry. Yes yes you can do both. He lived in Westchester until he was like 10? Yes. Or his parents American? His father's Australian right? No his father is... British right?

[00:36:26] No American yeah. Oh crazy. Did they just move to Australia? They moved to Australia when he... Is his full name Melvin? His full name is Mel. Mel Gibson. I don't know what to tell you. But yeah no his father is a crazy person. Famously insane. Holocaust denier.

[00:36:43] Holocaust denier possibly one of those Catholics that like doesn't accept Vatican II so like a sort of like prehistoric Catholic basically. He doesn't like sequel. That was his problem. Vatican II. Yeah but moves to Australia. It becomes a movie star right? He's in Gallipoli and You're Living

[00:37:04] Dangerously and Mad Max. No Gallipoli is his start. Really? I think Mad Max was his first film. I think that's true. The story also is that he gave his friend a ride to the Mad Max audition. Had gotten a bar fight the night before

[00:37:18] and George Miller was like who's that guy? Mad Max first. Thank you. Well done. But because I think it's important that Mel Gibson's career was founded both his Australian career and then his successful transition to the States is founded on him being a maniac. Yeah he's crazy.

[00:37:34] And in Mad Max it's like here's this guy. He goes crazy. He's got these eyes. These eyes that are always dancing around. He always looks like he's on the verge of just having a full mental break. And then like he spends basically,

[00:37:46] you know he's in Leathal Weapon which brings him to the States. Where he plays a guy who's on the edge. And he spends like I would say basically 15 years being like one of the biggest movie stars. Right then he sort of dulls the blade a little bit

[00:37:56] and becomes more acceptable, is a little less crazy, a little less manic for a while. I mean like tons of big movies. And makes Braveheart obviously. Winz Best Picture, Winz Best Director. He's like the guy in Hollywood. And this is his biggest year arguably because he has

[00:38:10] The Patriot and this. And Chicken Run. His greatest film. Oh my God I loved Chicken Run. My whole life flashed before me eyes. It was really boring. Great line. I don't want to be a pie. I don't like gravy. And then you know after this

[00:38:28] he does We Were Soldiers and Signs in 2002. Signs which ends up being his biggest hit. He makes The Passion of the Christ in 2004 which is I think when people start to wonder like what's up with Mel Gibson? Making an Aramaic like snuff film about Jesus.

[00:38:40] But just to cite two stats. This year 2000 he is the first actor to have 300 million dollar movies in one year. Okay. And he also becomes the highest paid actor in Hollywood. Right, he's. He gets 25 for The Patriot. Yeah. So he's like Top of the Roots.

[00:38:53] Top of the Roots. He makes two more movies. The last film he makes is his biggest hit ever and then he's like I'm gonna make a fucking self-financed Jesus biopic in a dead land. And it makes a gazillion dollars. Right, everyone's reaction that was

[00:39:05] he's insane, he's ruining his career. Then it becomes the most profitable film in history. But he's also a cute... What? Yes, and also accused of anti-Semitism. Right. And then there he makes Apocalypse which is a film about the Mayans. It's his best film. It's an awesome movie.

[00:39:20] It's really, really insane. And pretty much right after that is when he's arrested like for drunk driving and rants about how all the Jews are responsible for all the problems in the world and calls the cops sugar tits. That was the thing.

[00:39:32] He was already known as like a conservative and like a Christian sort of like extremist but he always kind of kept it like on the down low and this is still an era where... It's a pre-internet era. So his, when he would say shit

[00:39:45] it wouldn't you know linger in the same way. That's a thing. Pre-internet you could really craft persona and stick to it because you didn't have to be that out there all the time. You know? Like it was like he'll be on the Tonight Show once a year.

[00:39:56] Right, right. You know? Like so the passion, the crisis when people start going like stodgy. It's this movie anti-Semitic and he was kind of like no, no, you know? But then a year later while... He gets arrested, he says all this shit.

[00:40:10] Jews are responsible for all the worlds in the world, this and that. And then he's sort of like apocalyptic comes out after that, does pretty well. But he vanishes. He vanishes. Doesn't direct another movie, doesn't start another movie, goes in rehab, goes through a divorce.

[00:40:21] He has one of the biggest divorce payouts ever because he made it. How much? $100 million. Oh. Robin, she was married to him for like the 80s, like for decades. And had like 10 kids with her. A lot of that was because he saw

[00:40:35] finance, passion, the crisis, he made like all the money. He's so rich. So rich. And... So this is when he starts to go off the reserve, goes under and you're like, okay maybe he's sort of getting his life back together. Uh-huh. Comes back, does a couple...

[00:40:49] Edge of Darkness. Which no one sees. What is Edge of Darkness? Like a... It's like a revenge movie. It's like a remake of a BBC mini series. It was a... It did fine, whatever. And then he gets his ex, his girlfriend, Oxana Gregoria, I think her name is,

[00:41:06] files charges against him for domestic violence, records him, there's that very shocking recording. Right, I'm with this child. Yes. Oh right. Okay. And I remember, I listened to that. Saini bad shit to him and she's like you hit me and he says you deserved it.

[00:41:19] It's all on the tapes. Who? What agency is he with? He was with, it's a good question. Are you about to decide whether you leave your agency? No. He was with... Aria Manual was his agent and Aria Manual fires him after this. Good. As a proud show.

[00:41:35] Yeah, you know, famously wrote a big article throwing him under the bus in 2006. The agency didn't actually fire him until this. Oh wow. That's insane. And you know, so then he makes whatever, I guess he goes back to rehab. I don't know.

[00:41:49] He pleads no contest to domestic violence. So, you know. Did it. Right. Three years probation. I literally just wrote an article about this. The tape is very shocking. He says like, he in one sentence, like involves like racial prejudice, sexual assault. It's very bad.

[00:42:08] Like it's like incredible how bad it is. And Jody Foster puts him in the beaver the year after. But she does. She's had two... He has had two big people who keep on publicly... Jody Foster always stick up for him and say like he's a wonderful guy.

[00:42:24] And Robert Downey Jr is the other one. Because when Robert Downey Jr was going through like... He stuck his neck out for Robert Downey Jr. So I think Robert Downey Jr. has like some sort of... When he was in the depths of his addiction problems,

[00:42:33] Mel Gibson put up the insurance bond to have him co-star in Air America. And apparently was always kind of like... Well, I'm being again for the scene detective. Yes. Right. So Robert Downey Jr. has always been like, I was unhirable for years and years.

[00:42:47] I was a fucking mess. We got to give Mel another chance. And Jody Foster for no clear reason has been like, I know this man. I felt his character. They were in Maverick together? Right. But the Jody Foster thing there's not a clear tie

[00:42:57] other than her saying he's a good friend of mine. She'll stick up for him. People deserve second chances, third chances, fourth chances, fifth chances. That movie is a bomb and it's very strange. Which was like the hottest script in Hollywood and then became a movie that didn't exist.

[00:43:08] The one where he has like a beaver puppet on his hand and it goes like, oh, I love a beaver. When was that? 2001. Like Jennifer Lawrence. It was like early Jennifer Lawrence, Anton Yelkin. I fought so hard for that fucking Anton Yelkin. Did you? So hard.

[00:43:23] Did you audition for Jody? I didn't because it was like she was seeing very few people. It was just taping but I think I got somewhere. She's in it too right? She's in it and she directed it. The wife. Right.

[00:43:32] But it was like the hottest script and they were like, Jay Roach is going to make it with Steve Carell because it was like a comedy and then suddenly it was like, Jody Foster is going to make it with Mel. Do you know how it ends?

[00:43:40] I mean you know how it ends. Right. He's a spoiler alert. He cuts his hand off with a buzz saw. He's like a guy going through like a manic episode who has a disassociative sort of like break and starts externalizing his mania.

[00:43:52] There's so much you have to get through with Mel Gibson. Through a beaver hand puppet. Right. And talks into an Australian accent. Right. Who becomes very successful and like takes over his life but comes like the head of his business, romances his wife

[00:44:03] and then he realizes the puppet's evil and the way he ends the movie is by cutting off his hand. Yeah. It's an insane thing. His arm pretty much. But that was like number one of the black list where like this script's going places. Yeah.

[00:44:16] It was one of the scripts that I think the witch Hollywood by being so odd but I don't know whatever. I'm not reading it and being like, yup. Right. And now I'm like what? And then after that again he does pop up in things

[00:44:29] like the expendables three or whatever. But like he doesn't really have a serious role. And like machete kills like the joke becomes like, oh look he's bruised. We're putting him in slaki genre stuff as the villain. He's just a two scene appearance or whatever. Yeah.

[00:44:42] For how much money though. Right. And then he was supposed to be in Hangover 2. Yeah. And the guys all got together and were like, we refused and it became a big publicity bill. That was right. Like Alphanakis, Helms and Cooper were like,

[00:44:54] we won't let him be in this movie. Right. That's cool. And that was a Warner Brothers movie. And then he makes Hacksaw Ridge. Right. This film. He doesn't, he's not in it but he writes in directs. Makes it through the Australian film industry

[00:45:07] which is why it's entirely on cast and has big tax rebates. He makes it outside the studio system. Garfunkel, Andrew Garfunkel. There are two non-Australian actors in that entire film. It's Andrew Garfunkel and Ben Spahn. And everyone else is Australian. It takes place in the south. Yeah.

[00:45:21] It's a weird movie. And everyone's got those wacky accents. Right. And then it somehow gets nominated for fucking picture and director. It's a hit. It's well received. It gets nominated for the Oscars. Right in time for Me Too, right? Like right before.

[00:45:33] He literally has been interviewed on the red carpet about like what do you think of Me Too? I think it's very good. People are being exposed. He's given like the perfunctory answers. Like I've gone through all of this because I just had to.

[00:45:46] And then he was in Daddy's home too. It was one of the Daddy Daddies. Now that the joke becomes like let's reclaim him but own the fact that he's a comeback. He's scary. Right. He does his weird police brutality movie that I guess played at Toronto, right?

[00:45:59] That's yeah. But that's an indie movie. But yes. He directs an indie movie? No, no. That's just, he's in it. Yeah. Now he... Which monsters and men? It's called... Drag to Cross Concrete. Oh, okay. Great title for a police police.

[00:46:13] That was produced by a right wing film company. Yes. Like at Expressly. Anyway. Get the gringo which is like a weird fucking movie. Like he's just doing kind of odd stuff and he's got like crazy Wilderness Man beard and his eyes are insane.

[00:46:29] There's an interview I am sort of obsessed with for when he was on the awards circuit for Hacksaw Ridge and he keeps on rubbing his hands together and they audibly sound like sandpaper. Like every time he goes like this, it's like...

[00:46:42] My boss at the Atlantic once like interviewed him years because he was trying to make like a Maccabees movie. With Joe Esther Hass. Who then quit because he said this guy's an anti-Semi and wrote a big op-ed saying the crazy anti-Semitic things

[00:46:56] that Mel Gibson said to him and said, I don't think he ever intended to make this movie. I think he was trying to just correct his image as an anti-Semi. My boss wrote an article and basically just came away with a being

[00:47:06] like I honestly the anti-Semitic shit I can't even tell because my main diagnosis is that that man is mentally ill. I mean, as I'm sure he is though. Which doesn't offer an apology but he is a mentally ill man.

[00:47:17] He just came away with like that guy is crazy. Well also like narcissism is a mental illness. I looked it up recently because I'd always been throwing that around loosely to describe most of my friends. Yeah, yeah. But it was like... Yeah, the people we grew up with.

[00:47:32] Yeah. Like it's a progressive disease which is really fascinating. It's like incurable essentially. You can like treat it with therapy or whatnot. Or electing them as president. Or electing them as president that really cures it. But it sounds like I just think it's a lot more present

[00:47:50] than we imagine it is in Hollywood. And that's what I just to bring it back to what women want. Like that's what I think is so fascinating about the archetype of man that they are discussing. Is this like scary disgusting man that none of us

[00:48:06] want to believe exists? Yes. He appears not Justin Mel Gibson but also in Alan Alda's character and then that other actor who was in lots of movies from the 90s. Like they're all douchebags essentially. Yeah, there's no good man in this movie. No.

[00:48:22] And I think that you know I think that that's because not to be tried or anything but like a good man is hard to find especially in powerful circles. And I think that there are plenty of amazing men that I know

[00:48:35] but I think that you know the patriarchy peddles this notion of masculinity that is toxic and that is you know non-inclusive of what women want in the world. Well, great use of the title but also it is that sort of absolute power corrupts absolutely thing which is like

[00:48:56] even if someone has some values those values tend to get corrupted as concessions and sacrifices to get ahead. If you're like sort of environments where everyone's like well we know that women can't tie their own shoes then you go like I guess I gotta follow that

[00:49:10] if I can get the next promotion I'll say hey you know the thing about women no good with shoelaces. Well it's also just interesting like to hear that many biography of the last 20 years of Mel Gibson's career

[00:49:21] because it ends with him getting hired to remake the Wild Bunch that's what just happened. A movie made by another like conservative lunatic. Sam Peckampon? Who was a good visceral filmmaker. I actually don't think I like Sam Peckampon movies. I'm so bored. He's tricky.

[00:49:39] He made Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid or no? Yes. One of my favorite soundtracks of all time. Yeah. Straw Dogs is his best movie and he openly says Don't like Straw Dogs.

[00:49:50] I like Straw Dogs but I think it works because he failed to make the point he was trying to make. Like the things that are valuable by Straw Dogs are like we're not going to get it. Okay okay. We're not going to get it yet.

[00:50:01] We got to talk about what we want. But just saying I don't like his filmmaking you know what else? Sure. Is a conservative filmmaker I don't like? Clint Eastwood always looks like he's walking on the beach and always cast himself in everything.

[00:50:12] Kind of true you should see Sully though. Yeah she's the Sully world. Is he insol- He's not insol- He directed it. Oh Sully not Tully. Not Tully. I mean Tully's worth doing. He directed Tully. Yeah. Okay anything. That was really good. Thank you. David. Yeah.

[00:50:33] You know the confusing time we live in right? You can't figure out who's right and who's wrong but there's one company we know has never done anything wrong. Are you talking about Amazon? I'm talking about Amazon and here's the thing not only they've never done anything wrong

[00:50:44] they're starting to do even more right. Well you're talking about their new Prime Video Channels where you can watch thousands of movies and TV shows including originals, Amazon award-winning originals and other channels from like you know various other networks you might have heard of. Right.

[00:51:01] You can watch the TIC. You can watch shows and movies from show time, stars, HBO, the TIC, CBS All Access, Noggin, the TIC, PBS Kids, PBS Masterpiece, the TIC, the TIC, Acorn TV and Britbox the TIC. I haven't.

[00:51:14] I have a Prime TV with the, you know it's all built in. Sounds wonderful. You can get this through like you know various other things like Prime Stick or Kindle or whatever but I have the TV and it's great.

[00:51:25] You literally like maybe you just search for a movie you want to watch and it'll say this is available on stars like and you just add it, you subscribe. It's always a seven day free trial. It's essentially like having HBO go or show time anytime

[00:51:37] but it's built into the one platform. You don't have to open 17 different ads. And I genuinely love it because yeah I have like HBO stars show time a few of these things built into my TV. But we're getting ready to watch movies for this show.

[00:51:46] Yes, I will just talk into my remote and be like you know home again or whatever we're just recording and it'll tell me if it's available in any of those channels that I might subscribe to. Right and you also can watch the TIC.

[00:51:57] Now every one of those channels starts with a free trial. Yes. You get a seven day free trial and any channels you haven't tried yet and it's available. It'll get tagged on to your sort of you know Amazon bill or anything like that.

[00:52:07] Right, the standard Prime membership you pay for which includes the TIC but just streaming anytime anywhere. So I have a Fire TV, you can do it on your tablet you can do it on iOS you can do it on Android

[00:52:15] you can use it as a fire stick anything like that. You can watch the TIC, any of those platforms anytime. So you can only pay it for the channels you want with Prime Video Channels. You start your free trials of over 100 channels by visiting tryprimechannels.com slash check.

[00:52:28] Right, yeah that's all you got to do is check to make sure that you have downloaded all 12 episodes of season one of the TIC and then the deal is done. So it's if you want to pay for the channels you want

[00:52:39] you can start your free trial of over 100 channels by visiting tryprimechannels.com slash check. Over 100 channels, 12 episodes of the TIC and you know just I'm saying With more coming. And it's a great company they've never done anything wrong

[00:52:51] and maybe now is a really good time to support a show that needs a very vocal fan response. Tryprimechannels.com slash check. Hmm? Bezos! He's so swole. Watch the TIC. But I think this... Wait me too, I want to talk about me too. Yes, yes.

[00:53:07] I just think that it's really fascinating that we have this movement happening and it's making these huge strides and I'm really happy about that. But no one gets arrested. Everyone gets fired with a ginormous settlement. Sure. Everyone who does get fired with a ginormous settlement

[00:53:25] should have retired five years ago anyway. Right, it's mostly people saying like these people just shouldn't have jobs at the top of the industry. That's all we ask, right? It's just fascinating that there's a tape of Mel Gibson saying his ex-girlfriend he beat up deserved it. Yeah, essentially.

[00:53:42] There's a tape of him saying that. And that he's getting hired! Oh my God, that's so terrifying. And not only that, he hasn't accounted... Like he said... That's the other thing I dig through. He hasn't apologized really. He's never apologized. He's said like I had a tough time

[00:53:55] and I got through it. That's all he says. He always goes like, you know, the Rocky Years as he rubs a sandpaper hand. But I think that's the thing is like four months after these things. I mean I feel like every week you go on Deadline

[00:54:05] and there's at least one story that is LA Attorney General chooses not to file charges. You know, drops charges against... Anytime there's been sort of criminal charge placed against any of these people the LA County Office is dropping it, right?

[00:54:17] And the other thing is four to six months later they go like, so what? They can never come back? Right. Like acting like it's been 15 years and they're overdue for a second shot. And the thing that none of these guys have ever shown is just like real accountability.

[00:54:30] Well because... And any sort of remorse. Because that kind of accountability is not something that I think men are told that they should, or like, you know are raised to believe they should possess. They treat it like a rote time out

[00:54:42] where it's just like, I sat in the corner for half an hour, what do you want? The character and what women want was raised by LA Showgirls. So what do you think of that? Las Vegas Showgirls. Las Vegas. I meant that, sorry. LV Showgirls.

[00:54:52] Kyle listed from Fawcene, all that jazz. Sure. Who has like a very similar upbringing. Logan Lerman plays young Mel Gibson. But they set it up as this weird thing. Oh my God, that's Logan Lerman. Yeah, which is very weird.

[00:55:02] They set it up as this thing where it's like, okay, he was like surrounded by women. So he was very attuned to them. But like I guess very superficial women. Is that the... No, he was surrounded by women who were like manufactured to be looked at by men.

[00:55:17] Right. Because there's that weird scene when he is in the office with his two assistants and he doesn't hear anything. Right. And it's never addressed again. That's so weird. And it's the idea just like they have no thoughts. Yeah, it's like funny and really mean.

[00:55:31] I don't know what it like that. And it doesn't come up again. Yes. We should definitely write Nancy Meyers about that. Like what do we gauge that? Is it that they are honest about their, they don't have other thoughts besides... That's a secret. Right.

[00:55:47] And the opposite read is they're so dumb that they literally have nothing going on with them. But then like... They're not like archetypically dumb type. No, they're not. They're just sort of like brassy old ladies who help out Mel Gibson.

[00:55:58] And it's like fucking Delta Burke and Valerie Bryant. Like it's two very over qualified actors. But like we literally... Valerie Bryant had been nominated for an Oscar. Delta Burke had led four sitcoms at this point. But we literally in this movie hear the thoughts

[00:56:09] of a poodle who wants to poop, which is a great scene. I love that French poodles have to be girls. Yeah, sure. And that scene is also generous. Yeah. Sure. I think it's a great moment in American culture. Yeah. And like so he can hear the dog

[00:56:25] but he can't hear the two ladies. Right. But I guess this is not a movie with a lot of internal consistency anyway because like, I don't know, he just like electrified himself. No, and also every like thought he hears in this movie is very performative.

[00:56:38] Like it isn't how thoughts actually work or sound. He's not just hearing people being like I'm looking at the wall right now. Like what's over there? It's always people saying like I wish they would do this right now. Right, right. Like The Weatherman,

[00:56:49] a film that we'll maybe talk about someday has a sequence that's Nicolas Cage going to pick up Chinese Takeout. And I think it's the best depiction of an interior monologue I've ever seen where you're just like, that's how your thoughts sound. Okay.

[00:57:02] And this is like, this is how screenwriting sounds. I never know how my thoughts sound. Yeah, I know it'd be hard to represent like, yeah what's actually running through my brain. Like do I think in language? Yeah, right. Or is it just colors? Or is it just colors?

[00:57:14] It takes that liberty where it makes it literal language but the thing in Weatherman is that like he goes out to pick up the Chinese food takeout and his wife is like, don't forget the sweet and sour sauce and the scene is him walking the two blocks.

[00:57:26] Sweet and sour sauce. And he keeps on getting distracted by other thoughts coming through his head, like just random little thought fragments and then he has to try to get back on the sweet and sour sauce. And it's just like,

[00:57:35] oh that kind of feels like how your brain works. And this is like very concise lines of dialogue. Yeah. Yeah. So to give you the plot of the movie, yeah. Is the ad exec, lives in Chicago? The King of Men. He knows what men want.

[00:57:49] He knows what men want, which is like cigars and to sit in a chair. Yeah, to sit in a chair. And smoke said cigars. And women can't stop fucking. Sure, but you don't really see a lot of it. You just see his house made going like,

[00:58:03] what is it with the thong underwear? And then he has like a perfectly placed lipstick kiss on this. Right. That alludes to last night. We don't even see the woman. We only see the underwear. Yes. Okay. He ordered a bed by 10.30.

[00:58:18] And he works at an ad agency that looks like a train station, like this gorgeous... Everyone in movies that is successful works in advertising. Sure. Also everyone in movies that was successful in the 90s and early 2000s, no, that too. Yeah, Romana comedies have five jobs in total.

[00:58:39] But wait, wait, wait. Chicago. Yeah, well, Chicago, I don't know. It was such a place to be like this. Was Chicago offering like a tax rebate or something? The why is Chicago the hot town? It sounds serious.

[00:58:48] And I think that New York and LA think that normal people who are urban live in Chicago. I think they view Chicago as like a big city in the middle. It's like a compromise. And he's got an ex-wife. He's got a daughter played by Ashley Johnson. Wait, okay.

[00:59:04] She was so charming and wonderful. She's a great actress. I love Ashley Johnson. What kind of became of Ashley Johnson? She was the little girl on growing pains. That's right. When she was like four or five. And then she does work regularly. I mean, I think of her...

[00:59:17] She's in a lot of video games. She is the lead in The Last of Us, the greatest video game ever made. And her performance is wonderful in it. I always think about that. That was like a different language. Yes, I'm so sorry. It's like a game about...

[00:59:31] It's a very sad video game. It's a very sad video game. About survival. And there's a character that looks like Ellen Page but is played by her in motion capture and voice. But how do you play a per... Well, this is the thing that like games have become

[00:59:44] more cinematic now that a lot of the game is like just cut scenes. It's like animated scenes that you're watching. Yeah. Without any sort of interactivity. But the scenes go differently because you're playing the game. Sort of. I mean, she plays a character in the game.

[01:00:00] I mean, this is all brand new shit like what we're talking about. And this was one of the first games where you're like, I kind of care about these little... That's so funny. It's like the game that makes people cry and Ben Mendelssohn, it's like,

[01:00:11] it's the best piece of art. Ben Mendelssohn is in the game too? No, he just likes it. He's not talking about it in interviews. He loves this fucking game. But she's great and she's so good in this. Really good at that. She's such a...

[01:00:23] She's really good in a fast food nation too where she plays Patricia Kett's daughter. She likes Meredith Brooks in this movie? Right. No, it's just like a really honest performance in a movie where a lot of people are playing real things. Oh, you know who she is?

[01:00:37] She's the last line in The Avengers. She's the waitress. Working to the camera. Yes, right. She's around, she's in stuff. She works a lot. I think she's so beautiful and charming and wonderful in that movie. This is one of these movies where just like everyone

[01:00:50] who has more than four lines of dialogue is somebody. Well, that's a... That's Paulson Judy Greer. Every Nancy Meyers movie is like that. Where you're like, wait, he took this role? But Sarah Paulson and Judy Greer weren't working then.

[01:01:01] No, I'm saying like even the people who weren't famous at the time became famous. Like Lisa Edelston, like years before House and Shit. And then you have the people like Valerie Prine and Delta Burke. Lisa Edelston is one of the others.

[01:01:12] She's the one who's like, she comes up to him and then she says something. She's hot with curly hair. Yes, and then he hears her being like, God, I hope he doesn't make me listen to another joke or whatever. Judy Greer. Yeah, had she been...

[01:01:25] What had Judy Greer done before this? This is that part of her heartbreak. One of her very first things. She's so fucking good. Yeah. This was really her start because people talk about adaptation and this was two years before that. Yeah, she'd been in like...

[01:01:37] A couple TV things. What planet are you from and three kings and jawbreaker. I don't remember her in these movies. So she's been around. She's such a good fucking writer. Anyway, so he's a big jerk. He writes the ad copy about like boys like surfing.

[01:01:49] That is a good point though that it's like... The opening section of the movie makes it seem like this guy's got it made because everyone's like smiling at him and then you find out all that's bullshit. Yes. And then he thinks he's getting the big promotion

[01:02:01] but Alan Alder brings them in and he's like, listen women apparently are a thing now. So I've hired this lady. She's your boss. Right? I don't know. They make it sound like there's this new trend in the industry. Women. Female employment.

[01:02:15] But I think the thing is not to be dismissive of that because I think that that was just... No, no, I'm not saying you are. I just think that that's what's so true about it. I agree.

[01:02:24] I think now we have a hard time accepting that women weren't accepted even though that's only something that New Yorkers have. I think that's great. I mean like, what I like is that he just retreats from it at the end of the movie. Right. Like I screwed up.

[01:02:37] I don't know. I was just trying to do a trendy thing. Like he doesn't... It's completely disingenuous that he's hiring this person. Yes, totally. And he basically says it at the start too. Alder also styled exactly like Dominic Dunn in this movie. Interesting. No.

[01:02:50] I'm telling you look at a picture. He's got the exact same glasses and hairstyle. He's about three feet taller than Dominic Dunn. Other than that. I think it's the glasses is mainly what you're thinking of. The little round glasses.

[01:03:00] I'm saying with the glasses I kept on being like, I wonder if this was conscious. And so Helen hunts his new boss and he's got to deal with that, I guess. Because he hates women actually. And she talks about like,

[01:03:13] can you figure something out from the female perspective or what? And so he decides to embrace that by putting on women's items. She demands it. She sends everyone, she gives everyone a box and says like, you're not familiar with these products. Yeah.

[01:03:26] It'd be like a great gift for the party. Yeah. But I mean, I feel like the scene of him, you know, putting everything on all at once, Gibson plays it like this is a man having a manic episode. So I like saw this movie on TV with friends

[01:03:41] like a year or two ago, we're flipping through channels. And I was like, oh, this movie must age poorly and we just watched this section. And I was like, oh, is this movie like absolute lunacy? Right. Because it's also like...

[01:03:53] He's kind of muttering and like yelling at himself. I mean, you realize like, oh, actors, like movie stars who are able to play scenes like this where characters are saying this much to themselves are successfully looking like someone having a mental breakdown.

[01:04:06] Like he looks like a guy muttering to himself on a street corner like wearing pantyhose and stuff because he's talking so fucking much. That's a great dancer by the way. That scene is kind of gorgeous. Like the fact that it's like...

[01:04:18] That cutie backdrop of Chicago at the windows too. Yeah, I mean the dance is incredible. The weird CGI ball bearing. It's amazing it lasts that long. It goes on. Yeah. The full dance sequence before he starts doing the product other than...

[01:04:32] This movie has so many Sinatra needle drops. The opening song of the movie is... Sammy Davis Jr. singing Something's Got to Give. He's calling her shot for the future. But the opening song of Something's Got to Give is Butterfly. Yes. Oh my God, how cool. Bizarre.

[01:04:50] Right, but this has What a Girl Wants and It Has Bitch and other than that it's like all these old like Rat Pack crooner like swing songs from Nancy Meyers. Wait, who plays the boyfriend of Ashley Johnson? Eric Balfour, who was then on like Six Feet Under.

[01:05:04] Yeah, Eric Balfour who played like... Born Ambrose's boyfriend. So many douchebags in like for like three years. He was the only boyfriend. She always had that goatee. Goatee, terrible. Which he still has as far as I know. Like that's his look. And he...

[01:05:18] I mean when he's making this movie, he's certainly not 18. He's like 25. Right, right. And she looks like 16. Like when she introduces him, I'm like, am I supposed to believe there's two years between these people? He just seems like a grown up who's like in a band or something.

[01:05:33] But yeah, he played so many douchebags. Yeah, I remember him. What else is he in? Come on Griffin, help me out. Texas Chainsaw Massacre Remake. He plays Jessica Biel's shitty boyfriend who then gets murdered. All right, he was the hacker in 24. Right.

[01:05:47] He's like a bad boy with a gun and like some O.C. an O.C. episode. Uh-huh. That's probably what I remember. Yeah. I loved the O.C. Of course. Yeah, Lauren Holly Mel Gibson's ex-wife, who they imply like she got like 40 million dollars in the divorce, right?

[01:06:03] Wow, he's rich. Because he says like you look like a million bucks and she's like more like 47, which I think the joke is like... Oh no. That's a lot of money. I think the new husband has that money. Oh yeah, that makes more sense.

[01:06:15] I mean, he's the Chicago ad exec. He's not like a fucking oil-time dude. Well, but he also self-financed Passion of the Christ. That's true. In this movie that already happened. It's canon, right? Right. But she's going on her honeymoon, so now Ashley Johnson is staying with Gibson,

[01:06:30] which she seemingly hasn't done for any prolonged stretch of her childhood. She has like no relationship with her father. He's a bad dad. Bad dad. Bad dad Mel Gibson. So now he's like trying on all the products, acting like a crazy person, talking to himself. That himself. Right.

[01:06:46] Which like... It's quite... It's the hair dryer in the air and then it's still in the air and not still in the air. The hair mess where he almost trips. Right, right. And he's like, dangerous. 75% of accidents happen in the background. Right. And then he of course immediately

[01:06:59] then falls again. Sure. Tow falls out, shocks himself. And then they come home and he can hear her thoughts and he's freaking out and they also see him dressed up in all this shit. Yeah. Right. So he looks like a person having a crisis. Sure.

[01:07:18] And then he falls asleep. Sure. Wakes up the next morning and hears his... Hear women's thoughts. Housekeeper. Yeah, right. Right. And does this prolonged like... There's the scene with Loretta Devine Another super overqualified person. Playing the doorman, doorwoman where she's like, that ass like five times. Right, right.

[01:07:38] Like it's like extremely extended. And he feels objectified for the first time in his life. I know, horrifying. And the bit is that he keeps on going like, oh you really can't keep your thoughts to yourself today, right? He keeps on thinking

[01:07:47] that they're saying these things out loud. Psychic power is an unusual phenomenon. Right, right. Not most people don't have it. Right. But then as he walks through the park, he realizes it's... Excuse me, Missy, I want to put... Fucking everyone. Loses his mind, goes to work.

[01:08:02] Mark Fierstein, which this is like a big A-list male movie star power play. I guess it happens sometimes with female movie stars too. When big male movie stars wanna cast their best friend as someone who's 20 years younger than him. Oh yeah, right, right, right. Are they best...

[01:08:18] Oh, oh no. They'll be saying like, have a hot guy who's 28 playing my best friend. Or contemporaries, right? I feel like that always. Seth Rogen tells the story of being 21 and getting hired to play Matt Dillon's best friend. And he's like, Matt Dillon's lived a life.

[01:08:32] He's rough, and I just like... Learned how to drive. Yeah, I can drink legally in this country, and we apparently look the same now. Oh my God. That's true, I didn't think about that. That's always an ego stroke thing. What movie is that? You mean The Prey?

[01:08:47] You mean The Prey. But even like, you've got male has that with like Tom Hanks and Dave Chappelle. I mean, that's one of the most amazing ones. That Dave Chappelle is Tom Hanks' best friend. Oh my God, I love you. You've got male. Of course.

[01:08:59] Failure to launch has Sir Jessica Parker and Zoe Deschanel and then McConaughey and Bradley Cooper, I guess they're closer. I guess so. But there's usually like at least 10 if not 15 to 20 years between leading their best friend in a romantic comedy. Well also, let me...

[01:09:12] Mark Fierstein, he's just like, I can hear women's thoughts. And he's like, okay, whatever. I'll take that on board and not think about it ever again. He just accepts it and doesn't deal with it. Right. And Hal Gibson's like, here's the proof. Here's what she's thinking about you,

[01:09:25] which isn't proof, but then he can't get over the notion that she thinks that he's gay. There's other random co-workers. Because he has like a turtleneck. Right. So he's just kind of a cat. Gibson goes into the office and is like trying to steal women's thoughts for pitches.

[01:09:40] But here's what Alan Gasneier saying or thinking, steals her thought, but she denies it. Advil, it's so light. You can take it even when you're faking it. What's kind of a weird scene? That was upsetting. Where he's really like pressuring her. He's like, come on, you.

[01:09:56] You're like, hey. Jones, Wooderson. Like he calls her by full name. And he's like, you're telling me, be honest, you have never thought this to yourself. Which if I was her, I'd start screaming. Right. Right. And everyone's kind of like a little tense.

[01:10:11] It's also like minor sexual abuse. Yeah. It's odd. Yeah. I mean, to like make somebody talk about, to like, I don't know, it's sexual harassment. He is harassing her. But there is something nice to the fact that like the earlier scenes where he's pitching stuff

[01:10:28] and everyone's like, Nick's the man, you go Nick. You assume that the culture was like in these pitch meetings the women had to like fake a laugh and a smile at the pitches that they knew Alan all was going to prove. Now that Helen Hunt's in charge

[01:10:41] throws out a sexist pitch. Everyone is like dead silent. Like the men laugh and the women are just like, they finally feel free to disapprove. Sure. But I think also the implication of this is like, he's learning how to use his new power

[01:10:53] and this is how you don't use it. Right. Where you don't just like shout someone's inner secret and they're like, oh, you're right. Like they, I admit it. Yes. My inner secret. You're right. So he realizes, no, what you do is like,

[01:11:05] you just like bounce women's thoughts back at them sort of calm. Right. That's sort of weird moment too. Right before he's trying on all the stuff where he's like, okay, brainstorm brainstorm lipstick on the collar. No women will hate that this and that.

[01:11:18] And he's like, okay, imagine you're a woman. Think about it. Tall legs supple body. He like falls in love with the woman. He's his body. Wait a mile lesbian, which is the weirdest fucking joke. Weird, weird joke. Right. And then he can read women's thoughts

[01:11:33] and he has superpowers. Goes to psychiatrists. Isn't it amazing that it makes him a really good lover? It makes him an incredible lover. So he asks Marissa Tomei out. Right. And yeah, right? Because she's been first. She's like not that into it.

[01:11:49] She's like, let's get this over with. Does that really manipulate thing where he gets her riled up about the fact that he won't stop asking her out and it's like, look, don't worry about it. Okay. Just relax. We'll talk about it later. How about tonight at five o'clock?

[01:12:01] And the guys like those incredibly. Oh yeah. The guy who is also in something's got to give back guy and is like the Griffin Newman. But right now he like knows exactly what to say to Marissa Tomei. Goes on the date with her. Right. At first is terrible.

[01:12:16] Then goes in the bathroom has a pep talk with his penis. And then goes back in and you hard cut to her rolling over and being like, no one has ever been that inside of me before which you're like fucking gross. Yeah.

[01:12:27] And she clarifies like in my head. I mean. Right. Because he was lying about his grande penis. I guess. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, he's got a very essential tailspin. Right. Sure. But then Marissa Tomei is like dropped for a full 50 minutes. Yeah.

[01:12:45] I mean, he honestly, I think it's just too busy being a psychic. Like I guess he's just sort of caught up in all of that and his daughter. Right. I guess there's some drama with her. And in like takes her shopping and Helen Hunt's like,

[01:12:57] look at this guy being nice to his daughter. What a fucking hero this guy is. Like she's thinking. On her shoes too. What's up with Helen Hunt? We need to. So we're done with Gibson. Let's just get on. You're done. No one cares.

[01:13:10] Because this is who rules and is coming off an Oscar win. Yes. For as good as it gets. And years on mad about you, right? You know, that's the thing we've talked about. He's famous. Mad about you in one sentence. Marriage is hard.

[01:13:23] What if you were married and living him in him? Oh, no, it was like the thing they always talk about like the moment where we knew Paul Reiser's genius and how good Helen Hunt was on the show is there's a scene

[01:13:37] where he's like sitting in the living room like writing or something and she walks out with an empty toilet paper tube and she's like gestures to it and goes like, ah, and then runs out. And they were like, it's about like those like fights.

[01:13:50] You don't even have to verbalize in marriage. Like who forgot to buy more toilet paper. Like that's the fucking show. So my mom and I used to watch it all the time. Really? Yeah. That was like the one succumb she liked.

[01:14:02] But she won the Oscar for as good as it gets. Do you think that there was some issue at SAG with Helen Hunt and Holly Hunter having the same name? Yeah, they fought for who got the ER. They had an arm wrestling match. Helen Hunter. Yeah, Helen Hunter.

[01:14:20] But the thing 2000 was this crazy year because she's on mad about you after she wins the Oscars still on that show can't really make movies. And then this is the year after the show has ended. And she makes like four movies.

[01:14:33] She's in Doctor Tina Women, the Altman movie. She's in Castaway. She's in Castaway. She's in... Pay it forward. Right. But was this a time when it was easy? I don't know that much about it. The transition from TV to film

[01:14:46] because I feel like there was such a massive like, I don't know, being on TV was like pejorative. I would argue it was still tough. And the fact that she won an Oscar while being on a sitcom was kind of like unprecedented and insane.

[01:14:59] And so that meant like, okay, whenever this show ends she's at least going to get a real shot at movie stardom. And this was her year where it's like, okay, she's in a couple big movies. She's working with really big directors.

[01:15:09] She has Cursed the Jade Scorpion the Falling Year, which is a nightmare movie. But she has like those five movies in a row where it was just like, oh my God, Helen Hunter's unavoidable. And then she kind of like disappears. Not only that, she does disappear.

[01:15:21] And not only does she have all these movies. This is a huge hit. Castaway's a huge hit. It sounds like she was in bombs. No, two of the five biggest movies of that year. And yet, like for whatever reason,

[01:15:32] it's the last we kind of hear of Helen Hunter as like a lead actor. Right. So why? She's directed a couple movies. She likes to surf. She likes surfing. Very into surfing. She got another Oscar nomination for the sessions was Everyone Forgets. She's good at it.

[01:15:45] Because everyone forgets that movie exists. She's really good at it. Yeah. But she's like made a couple films herself. I had a kid when she was like 40, like a few years after this. I mean, there's not much in her sort of like her biography. When she does interview,

[01:16:00] she talks a lot about how much she hates the industry. And I think like her year, like really playing in this, she was just like, it's a horrible sexist place. And I didn't want to deal with it. And she like was just like,

[01:16:09] I'm just going to do what I fucking want to do. She clearly loves surfing because she's done like three surfing movies. So it's like if you offer her any part where she gets on a board, she'll do it.

[01:16:18] She also probably has so much money because I was reading last night that she used to make a million dollars an episode from that about you. Yes. And that thing and then syndication and all that, like yeah, she must have plenty of money.

[01:16:29] She doesn't have to worry about that. But I guess as an actor, it's so interesting because I think about people like Barbara Streisand who I adore as well. And I'm like, don't you just love it so much though that you wouldn't ever want to stop doing it? Sure.

[01:16:44] Like, and then when I see these people that disappear because the industry is so awful, I'm like, well, I guess. Yeah. She may have just literally just hated the role she was being offered. But do you never have that moment?

[01:16:55] Like we're both similarly crazy people about the work and how much we like these art forms. If I had 40 million dollars though, and I could just finance whatever movie I actually wanted to make. That's my thought is if I had that much success,

[01:17:06] I would just make my own shit. Yeah. But there are moments where I get so fed up with this that are the other that I'm like, God, I wish I could find something else I like doing. Oh, totally. I'm like, I'm just going to find a job.

[01:17:16] But that's the thing. If you're like Helen Hunt and you have like 40 million dollars, right? I'm saying once you have that amount of money and then you're like, I don't know, I love surfing. Right. If you found that much joy from surfing. True. And maybe you're just done.

[01:17:29] Maybe you're just done. Right. But we're crazy people who do like four different things and they're like, listen to my album. Go see me do a stand-up. I can't stop. Yeah. And then you get, then you realize that all of those industries are just as bad. Right.

[01:17:42] That's the other thing we found that we talk about and we're like, what about her character? Like, I mean, I feel like you said all the sort of good stuff about this character. Darcy is her name. Darcy. She's cool. But she is a little backgrounded in this movie,

[01:17:56] which kind of irritates me. She's totally backgrounded in this movie. But I think what she brings to the foreground is something that a lot of women don't get to hear a lot, which is that like, you know, it's okay to

[01:18:05] say I want to be loved for how successful I am. Right. I don't want that to be part of why I'm left all the time. I also just genuinely, and I do think this is just an Nancy Meyers flourish.

[01:18:14] Like I love the empty apartment scene because I like the, like being like, you know what? This is exciting. You know, like, like rather than just think of it as sort of lame or superficial. Let me just say two apartments that are kind of key

[01:18:27] to this movie, but a film weirdly lacking in kitchens. Now we've established that on this miniseries, we're going to cut once an episode to a remote segment from our special kitchen correspondent, Romley Newman. So now we're going to cut over live to Romley's kitchen corner.

[01:18:41] Welcome to Romley's kitchen corner. And here is your host, Miss Romley Newman in her kitchen. Hello. I'm here talking about Mel Gibson's lack of a kitchen and what women want. I would argue that this, I think we've probably seen the kitchen in this movie but didn't know

[01:18:59] it was a kitchen because this is the kind of stupid house where everything's hidden and very sleek and very modern. And I like, you know, my girl Nancy didn't put like a huge Viking range in Mel Gibson's kitchen, which is fair.

[01:19:14] But the entire house has this very male vibe and what I think is the kitchen looks the same. So cute. Thank you, Romley. Yep. But this is the most, the least kitcheny Ryers movie. Right. And you kind of want to see Helen Hunt's

[01:19:33] kitchen and the lack of appliances in half or tell you what it's going to be. But her kitchen is not yet built and Mel Gibson's kitchen is unused, I guess. I mean, his cupboard is bare. He only eats a bagel. Yeah. He likes an onion bagel. Yeah.

[01:19:46] He's so gross. Oh, and I love an onion bagel. He must just like stink because he's just taking cigars and onion bagels. And I love, yeah, the bottle of red wine. Honestly, when I was watching him drink a bottle of red wine, smoke cigarettes and like flip

[01:19:57] through the TV channel. So I was like, I want to do that right now. Yeah. It looks fun. I mean, you know, write some ads about how it's great to get out. You can live that life. But Helen Hunt, I mean, after being

[01:20:08] introduced kind of isn't in the rest of the hour of the movie, which is more conventionally like Bruce Almighty-ish where it's just like, how does this guy use powers? Right. And then the second half is their relationship, I guess. Right.

[01:20:20] Then it really becomes about the two of them. They become this like partner, but she seeds like ground to him, like sort of pass it like, you know, and I... Oh my God. That was the other thing that was so incredible. Her attitude about his success

[01:20:31] is it's, I think it's kind of unaddressed because it's just kind of like normal, but it was just incredible to see like her humbleness and her kindness about his genius. Yeah. Like that is so quintessentially... She lets him do the presentation. Like when she gets fired, she's like,

[01:20:46] I think I kind of deserve to get fired. Right. Which is crazy. I mean, it's internalized by Sergeant like 101. Yeah. But especially because the reputation that precedes her, a reputation spread by shitty men in this movie is that she's just like what, with a female Darth Vader,

[01:21:00] Vader, she bitch or whatever they are. He said, yeah, I hear she's a real bitch on wheels or whatever that's like his... A man eater, which doesn't mean that she's like, well, I've always thought of that term as being like, oh, you like tear through men. Sure. Sexually.

[01:21:15] Yeah. But this is that she's a man eater. That she's a cannibal. That's what they mean in this film. Yeah, they mean that she'll roast him on a spit. Very subtextual. Yeah. I mean that would be an interesting second hour of the movie if she's like...

[01:21:24] Yeah, her just roasting. He's like in a cauldron and she's like, you know, adding stock. Right, right. She's a witch. A shittier version of this movie though would make her an ice queen until the scene where they have... And the Helen Hunt. The bonding in the bar.

[01:21:38] Helen Hunt is a person. Oh, she is a person. Yeah, right, right. Helen Hunt's a really humanist actor. Oh, I love it. I've already screamed about it in her as good as it gets ever so. But yes, she can make anyone seem like just a real person.

[01:21:48] It's an incredibly difficult thing to do. Mel Gibson does not feel like that real a person in this movie. He feels like a movie star who is barging around. Right, right. A person who is one step away from the point. Well, even the way that Helen Hunt looks

[01:22:00] like Helen Hunt is super beautiful, but it's like a very... She's so hot. She's so hot. But she looks like a real person. But yeah, which sounds like a backhanded thing, but there's something about the fact that even the way she's styled in movies

[01:22:11] isn't glamorous and she presents herself like glimmers. Characters look like real people. And again, they can be glamorous. They can be dressed amazingly and all that, but none of them ever look sort of ludicrous. She looks like your friend's hot mom. There's also, I agree,

[01:22:26] I have a crush on Helen Hunt in almost any Helen Hunt movie. Yeah, no, she's really lovely. There also is something, it's kind of like the deepness of her voice and how fast she talks. Great voice. But there's something about how she performs vocally

[01:22:38] and how sort of no-nonsense she is that makes her feel very like... She has a lot of fucking integrity in whatever she is in, you know? And you buy that whatever character is supposed to be doing in their field. But I like that this movie presents her

[01:22:52] as a reasonable person the entire time who all the men are terrified of for no reason. And that scene isn't her changing. It's him just sort of like cutting through it all. The thing that's kind of weird about this movie is it's a romantic comedy,

[01:23:07] but the first half is sort of just high-concept comedy. And then once it goes to the romance, their romance isn't very funny. Their romance is not that interesting. It gets pretty straight. I don't think they have a ton of chemistry. They don't have much chemistry.

[01:23:19] She's really good on her own. He is able to dampen his insanity more than I remembered he did at this last act. It becomes pretty successfully subdued in human. As much as he can pull that off. But it's a lot of him just like literally saying

[01:23:34] a thing he just heard her think, over and over again. Which is the weird aspect to this movie is that people are like... The idea is you should listen to women, I guess. Yeah, well, yeah. Again, it feels like the progress he makes is so incremental.

[01:23:48] Which I kept on at this point. I feel like it's just like, hey man, that's all we're looking for. And also maybe this is a little more about her. The other thing though is I kept on at this point comparing the movie to Groundhog Day.

[01:24:01] Which is a movie where a guy is similarly presented as being just unbearable at the beginning. And by the end, you buy that he's sort of like gained humanity. And the two things that Groundhog Day does are, one, they make it that he's there for years.

[01:24:16] That it's like he's stuck in a fucking hell. Where he really has the time to change. But that movie's about Buddhism. That movie's about rebuilding your soul. The other thing with that movie is he tries all the shitty Mel Gibson, like I'm gonna use this as my advantage

[01:24:32] and gets punished for all of that pretty early on. Whereas Mel Gibson is rewarded for just parroting back what woman think up until the very end in which he punishes himself. Let's talk about the end of the movie. First, he rescues Judy Greer because she's sad.

[01:24:47] Oh my God, wait. We need to talk about his spirit daemon in Chinatown. Oh sure, right. Because that happens during that scene. She as another woman character whose thoughts he cannot hear. And I guess Judy Greer lives in Chinatown. In the best apartment ever. Incredible apartment.

[01:25:06] She's what a messenger. And she has sort of sort of Donik, like funny quote unquote, funny suicidal girl in the office. I guess she's right. She has a great voice. He's realizing I guess. Very acidic wit. Dark sense of humor, but she's funny.

[01:25:20] And then I guess finally realizes like, oh maybe she wasn't kidding around about being so depressed. She said like someday I won't try to kill myself and I'll leave all the files there for them to deal with. And he one day sees that all the files are there.

[01:25:31] So he rushes to help her. He meets a silent guardian angel type. And he already at this point babes him in spark. He tries to replicate the experiment and re-electrocute himself. That doesn't work though. For a wildly canny or women's thoughts,

[01:25:46] but for no clear reason it just comes back suddenly. I don't know. Yeah. I like him calling 411 to test it out. And it's like, of course it's a robot. But he can hear thoughts over the phone though. Yes. Right. Because the Helen Hunts scene is kind of funny

[01:25:59] that he doesn't know what she's said out loud or not. But yeah, he goes to Chinatown. This woman guides him, can't read her thoughts. And then he's electrocuted by the hanging lights. Sure. Because it's a rainstorm. Right. Yeah. Goes into save Judy Grude,

[01:26:12] gives her the job she always wanted. Right. That's mostly how he addresses the situation by being like, I'm sorry. Instead of like, hey, do you want to talk about your manic depression? Right. Where he goes through some of this stuff. Right. I'm so glad you didn't kill yourself.

[01:26:25] And she's like, what are you talking about? He's like, I got this really stressful job for him. I sensed it. And then she goes like, you sensed it for me? Which I like that she plays it like that's even worse. Sure. Right.

[01:26:38] If I'm putting out the vibe to everyone. She's like mortified at the very idea. She's so good in this scene. She's great. I love Judy Greer. This is like kind of the first scene in the movie where he does a totally thankless nice thing. Sure.

[01:26:51] Every other scene, it's like he gets some gain off of like giving women what they want. Sure. You know? I mean right after the scene, he runs to Helen Hutton and says like, I stole all your ideas. And she fires him. And she fires him.

[01:27:03] It's so, and then she says, is that it or whatever? She says, I love that part. Yeah, and he's all mopey, right? And then they kiss. Like what kind of woman would I be if, what kind of shining night would I be? Right. Great line.

[01:27:18] If I didn't take the chance to rescue my men. And they kiss and like roll credits. Like it's like that. Like she's like, we're out. Honestly, it's a two hour and seven minute long film. It's like that.

[01:27:26] So the only other scene that we kind of touched on it, but the Lola scene is weird because in a lot of movies, it would be like, oh, this is the first time you get to see him successfully seduce a woman and his increased abilities as a

[01:27:37] lover and then you'd never see her again, which would be kind of callous in and of itself. Is that that she's creepily waiting outside his house at dawn? Having like a breakdown. Having a breakdown and then in her head and even more intense,

[01:27:48] like, you know, break the monologue. Right. And she's like either I'm unlovable or you're gay. Right. Please, please tell me that you're gay. Please tell me you're gay. Like she's like saying it over and over in her head.

[01:27:59] Which is a gross that it's like she's demanding that he's gay and that that's the only explanation for a man being sensitive as you said. Yes. And B, it's also gross that he like lies to her. So I was like, when that scene came back on,

[01:28:11] I was like, oh, it's kind of nice. This movie is making him pay for the fact that he's callous towards women and it's like, no, he just keeps lying. Yeah. Like it sort of sucks. Well, he's finally on it. That's not the end of the hero's journey though.

[01:28:22] Right. Right. That's sort of in the middle where he's bottoming out, I guess. He does. Oh, and also he's nice to his daughter who gets jilted at the prom because she won't sleep with their daughter. That seems pretty sweet where they're sitting at the parallel dressing rooms. Yeah.

[01:28:35] She's so good. She's so good. There's the really long finding a prom dress, montage set to what a girl wants. Really long and no dialogue, but a lot of mugging. I was like, wait, why are they mugging? They could talk.

[01:28:48] And he like holds up a dry erase board that says like, not that one. Yeah, this is a montage, but it's not like you know that you're in a montage. You're a person. Use your words. Where'd the dry erase board come from? Yeah. What?

[01:29:03] I'll say, this is one of the few times a guest has made me like a movie more. Oh, I'm so glad to hear it. Because I've been dreading this one. I thought you were going to hate this film as well.

[01:29:15] Yeah, you said you texted me that it's like a fever dream. Yeah, I said. Where every woman wants to sleep with Mel Gibson. Well, that part is weird to watch present day because it's just hard to remember a time where that was the case.

[01:29:27] I mean like, you know, like movie star Mel Gibson, like I'm kind of into it. Here's the other thing though about being an actress. Divorce from content. Yeah, sure. Yes. So, what I'm saying is that you learn that like 99% of male

[01:29:45] actors are great at presenting or acting like they're sexy or interesting or whatever. And in real life, they aren't. So I've been kind of like it all of these movies get ruined for me because I'm just like, it's the way that once

[01:30:00] you start like working on films, it's like you're like, oh, shot reverse shot. Like you begin to like be totally taken out of the thing that they want you to believe because you just know how it gets made. You see the trick.

[01:30:13] I mean, I've met a lot of really wonderful male actors, but I'm just saying that there is something about a famous male artist where they just begin to adopt the qualities of like that we resent the most in women. Like vanity and insecurity. Yes.

[01:30:34] And so I was watching that movie being like Mel Gibson, probably vain and insecure and controlling and terrible. Yeah. That's I mean, and a very compelling actor. Well, I'll say like I do think there's something to like great actors.

[01:30:48] It's all about how you connect with your scene partner. Right? Like that's what we like value most, you know, in this field with the people we work with, but also I think when we see great acting on screen, where are the types of people who like go like,

[01:31:01] oh my God, look at how connected they are, how much they're listening. Like great quote unquote movie stars are usually just about how they interact with themselves. Yeah, that's like the section of him in the apartment by himself is kind of like a key text for Mel Gibson.

[01:31:15] Yeah, where it's just like he's doing a dance routine. He's doing comedy and like the makeup and everything. Yeah. And so that's sort of Vandy like protection of their image, knowing their angles, knowing their moves, knowing what the persona is because he doesn't really

[01:31:27] have any chemistry with her, but he's super fucking compelling in close ups. Yeah, totally. Even this weird like sandpaper hand interview I'm always watching with him. He's been mowing. I watch it because I'm just like even when he's clearly a lunatic he's just so fucking watchable.

[01:31:42] Like there's something about him even when it's a train crash. We got to put the box up. We do a game where I try to remember the box office from when the movies came out because I'm a crazy person. Oh my God. So this is December 15th 2000.

[01:31:53] Second biggest romantic comedy of all time. Do you guys remember what you were doing? December 15th 2000. I was seeing one of the movies on this list. Christmas presents. This is a big year. Yeah, this movie came out number one.

[01:32:04] I was like, this was like right before we met yet number one. It came out number one and it was at number one again over the Christmas weekend. No cast away what? Oh, oh, interesting. So Helen Hunt was like Jesus fucking. Hunt on hunt.

[01:32:18] He's always kind of weak with any that's number two though is a teen comedy. Number two is a teen. You can just get this shit from that year is two. Was it a new release or my friend Tom? Can I guess? New release. Yes.

[01:32:34] She's all that perfectly good guest. But no, that was a March release. Right. See, he knows this. Ew. I know. Okay, wait, let me let me think through this. So as a teen release, was it like a minted teen star at this point?

[01:32:47] It's one of them is in a TV show and the other one was just in like another teen comedy. Was it a Dawson's Creek person? No. No. Sick com. A sitcom and they're a teenager. Yeah. Interesting. The teen sick drive me crazy. No, good guess though.

[01:33:04] Oh, Eric Balfour's in that too. That's close though. Sure. Teen sitcom. Teen sitcom. So like was it like on a sitcom about teens? No, it was on Fox, I think. The camera board was on Ben's looking like kind of like a me kind of movie. Yeah. Oh, oh.

[01:33:24] I know what it is. Of course. I got thrown off by teen movie. Well, it's a teen movie. I think there's supposed to be in their 20s in that movie. It's dude wears my car. It's dude wears my car. Oh my God, I would have never. Yeah.

[01:33:37] Because they live alone in that movie. Yeah, I guess you're right. They don't live with their parents. I guess it's kind of vague like who they are. You're right. It kind of just wakes up with them being like, dude wears my car.

[01:33:50] That is what I was doing that weekend. I'm not a character development. My mom did not see this movie. I remember her every time she saw the poster, she'd be like, that's a good poster. She would like do you ask your coach or going like.

[01:34:01] I want to see that poster. Can you pull it up? Yeah. And it was one of those movies where everyone made fun of the title, but it was also the most effective title in the world because like the concept was right there. They tried to make a sequel.

[01:34:12] Here is the poster. Where's my car? My favorite part of that movie is no end in. Oh yeah. I did that with a friend this weekend. Zoltar, there's the whole alien cult. Yeah. There's a lot of crazy shit in there. That's weird.

[01:34:25] And then she goes on to make Harold and Kumar, which is the better version of this movie. This movie was shot as a stoner film and they want to make a PG-13. So all references to Weed are cut out of the movie, which is very odd.

[01:34:35] They just seem like idiots. I was going to say they tried to make a sequel and they never came up with a good enough concept to meet the high baller. I understand. Number three at the bottom. The reason I'm saying this is because I think it's funny.

[01:34:46] Do you know what the title was supposed to be of the sequel? No. Dude, Where's My Car? Number three at the box office. It's the biggest movie of the year. Seriously? Dude, Where's My Car? Seriously? Dude, Where's My Car? Did it come out?

[01:34:57] No, but I thought that was funny. What's the thing they have tattooed on their backs? Dude. Dude and cool. A six. No, a sweet. Sweet. Dude, what's yours? Dude, what's yours? Sweet. Yeah. I'm really watching that tonight. Maybe it's a master piece.

[01:35:10] It's like a 10-minute sequence in my memory. All right. Number three, the biggest movie of this year. Dr. Schis is how the Grinch was all Christmas. Oh, I saw that. A movie. Yeah. Yeah. This was a big holiday season.

[01:35:21] Number four is the better sort of family movie of this moment, like coming out this week. Of 2000, it was the better family movie of the moment. Was it Emperor's New Groove? Yes. Which rolls. Oh, I loved that movie. Great movie. So good. Such a good movie.

[01:35:37] Number five is an action movie. I think we've talked about it before. Is it a Jet Lee movie? No, it's like a... It's like a... I think the action stars that way. If I tell you the subgenre, you'll just know.

[01:35:49] But it is like a Star Dream movie like that? No. No. It's not. No, not at all. It's like a thriller, I guess. Father-Son, I think. It's a father-son. Pretty sure they're father and son. And there's some other people. So it's like two big movie stars. No, no.

[01:36:06] Stop with the big movie stars. They're media movie stars. Interesting. Media movie stars. Like the poster is like the thing they're on. Fucking hell. It's a mountain movie. Oh, it's not vertical limit. It's vertical limit. I knew if I said mountain movie. Who's in vertical limit?

[01:36:22] Chris O'Donnell and Dennis Quaze? So you know that's still how I know what the difference between vertical and horizontal is? Same with fucking me. And the last time that came up on this podcast, I said the same thing.

[01:36:31] That's the only way I know the difference between the two. I just go, which one was Chris O'Donnell? Bill Paxton. Bill Paxton. Not Dennis Quaze the Dead in the other ice movie. A different tomorrow. Oh my God. I remember that.

[01:36:42] I will just say, I know you have to go, David. I know you have to go Lola, but I was looking at 2000 at the box office because I wanted to see where this movie ranked amongst the top of the year.

[01:36:52] And 2000 feels like the last real pure movie star year. What website are you on? Box office module. Oh, okay. I'm afraid they're web saying. Right, which I check as if it's like Politico. But you go like number one, Grinch Jim Carrey. Number two, Hanks Castaway.

[01:37:09] Tom Cruise Mission Possible. Gladiator Russell Crow. What would want Gibson? Like Perfect Storm Clooney, but that's sort of him rising meet the parents, De Niro. Like it's like every movie is like the poster was the person's face. No, you're right. You're absolutely right.

[01:37:24] It was sold on these movie stars. The pre-broad breasters are just superhero movies. What lies beneath and the outliers are like Crouching Tiger, which was an anomaly that we talked about. And then X-Men and Scary Movie, which then would like change the industry. I love Scary Movie 2. Two.

[01:37:39] That's weirdly the one that has like aged the best. Is that the one that begins with the exorcist? The one that like the house. It begins with the exorcist and then it's what lies beneath. It's weirdly what lies beneath.

[01:37:49] Which is the one where they push the piano down the stairs. Is that one or two? I think that's two. I think that's two. Tobias Fuenke is in Scary Movie 2. And Chris Elliott, who's really good in it too. You placed the guy with the hand. Right, right.

[01:38:02] I've not seen any of those movies since theater. I've had it on DVD and I would watch it on my portable DVD player like once a week. That's a throwback. And Poo-Dee Tang. I mean the Holy Trinity of early 2000s cinema.

[01:38:16] Scary Movie 2 is definitely the champagne of scary movies. And on that note, Lola thank you so much for being here. Oh my god this was so fun. Was it? See this was fun. Yeah actually this was really fun. I almost canceled and I'm glad I didn't.

[01:38:27] I knew you'd have fun if you actually did it and I knew you would be dreading doing it. Right, right. Honestly I loved watching that. I love listening to you talk about movies. Hell yeah. Yeah, now I love listening to you talk about movies.

[01:38:40] We wouldn't be friends if you didn't like hearing me talk about movies because that's 90% of the conversation. Yeah, I think one of the last times we hung out you went on a six hour rant about why Will Smith was the best.

[01:38:50] Well that sounds like something Griffin would do. I don't think this was the last time. Okay that was one of the last times I wanted to hang out with you. This is why I do a podcast with him is

[01:38:59] we want to hang out and this is really the only way to do it. We should just do these conversations and no one paid us for them. Wow, you get paid? Yeah, yeah, great ads. How much do I get? Bye guys. Yeah, you'll get a big cut.

[01:39:10] Thank you guys for having me. Thanks for being here. Your album? Available now? It's available. It's out. People should get it. It's great. Hearthead West and Gemini movie you're in from this year that's very good and it's on Hulu right now. That's such a good movie.

[01:39:24] I'll plug that. It's a great movie. It's on Hulu. People can watch it for free and I don't know what the residual structure is. It's positive for me. Very, very happy. Bye guys. Bye. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, subscribe.

[01:39:36] Thanks to Andrew Gouda for social media, Joe Bowen and Pat Rounds for Artwork, Lee Montgomery for our theme song. Go to Blankies.com for some real nourishing, Tee Public for merchandise, and as always chicken round thoughts. All right. What do women want guys?

[01:39:58] We're going to get to the bottom of it. Are we? I mean, I feel like this movie actually kind of did nail it. Yeah. I would say I had amazing sex after watching this movie. Wow. It's not weird. Did you watch the movie with the person? No. Yeah.

[01:40:16] They were watching the movie. You were watching too. The only other movie that has like inspired great sex is I Am Love. Oh, that makes sense. That's a sexy movie. It's like an African-D's movie. Yeah. Also Call Me By Your Name. That's a director. Similar thing.

[01:40:29] Yeah, yeah, I know. And then Nancy Meier. Yeah. I never knew. Look at Guadagnino's, Nancy Meier's. Yeah. One's drawing from the other. Yeah. This movie is Mel Gibson fucking a peach, right? That is the opening. That was the opening scene. It's in the director's.

[01:40:47] That was the sequel that I ever made was What Fruit Want. Right. He can hear all fruit and they're just like, just come in me. That's what I want. Come. And then Feed Me to Armie Hammer. Fill me with your juice.

[01:41:00] Okay, I'm just, I'm going to do this, whatever. Are you reading the trivia on IMDb right now? We'll get to it, but yeah. He's going to do a quote from the film. Oh, okay.

[01:41:11] And then he's going to put the word podcast in place of one of the words from this quote. And because this is a movie that neither of us like probably remember already. We won't know what word he's even putting. Oh no, I just rewatched it.

[01:41:24] I watched it as you guys know. I'm going to say the grossest opening quote. Okay, are you ready? Okay, sure.