Zodiac with Leslye Headland

[00:00:01] Blank Check with Griffin and David, Blank Check with Griffin and David Don't know what to say or to expect All you need to know is that the name of the show is Blank Check

[00:01:34] Some of them end up in the freezer. You know I used to have rats in my freezer, right? What? For what? My roommate had a pet snake. A learned foot. Learned foot. And my roommate's name was Learned Foot. Shout out to Learned. Hope you're doing well.

[00:01:48] He just got a new job. And he fed the snake rats. And you had to freeze them and then thaw them out and then give them to the snake. So your roommate named Learned had a pet snake. And does he have a lumbering build?

[00:02:02] And is he the Zodiac killer? No. He was tall but not stocky. Okay. But I would just have these moments where I would open the freezer and be like, wait, what? You know, like once a month I would be like, I need my... What is this again?

[00:02:18] Rat. Frozen rat. We mentioned... And then they have that with the squirrels. Learned, your former roommate, came up on a recent episode and I got a text from a friend that I thought was completely inscrutable. I could not make sense of what was being written to me.

[00:02:34] And then I realized it was because I read it as Learned Foot. Sure. Like I thought someone was starting a sentence with, I learned that foot. And I was like, who's foot? His name is Learned. I sent this text? Or someone else? Orlando Allier.

[00:02:52] Who was one degree away from Learned Foot and had made some connection after you mentioned him on the show. This is the great way to end. Start. It was so good to be here. Thank you so much for having me. We're going to open and close

[00:03:04] our episode on one of the best movies we've ever covered. Yeah, definitely. It's immediately in that tier of conversation. I think so. I'm legitimately honored to be here. Because it's a masterpiece. It was a lightning bolt from the blue. There was some struggle in guest booking

[00:03:26] on this episode. We had a thing set. We had to change the schedule. There was one notion that got thrown into chaos. We had to slot something in quickly. I was sort of asking around friends of the show and no one could come up with anything.

[00:03:42] And then Alex Ross, our mutual friend, was like, well obviously. Yeah, Leslie Hedlund. Right. We were like, why would she ever want to waste her time traveling downtown Brooklyn? Listen to the fucking prequel episode. No, I mean Zodiac is... I have a top four. Okay, sure. Four faves.

[00:04:04] I don't like to rank them because they're all so different. You have a Mount Rushmore. Yeah, it's a Mount Rushmore. It's Zodiac, The Shining, Back to the Future, The Apartment. That's just... That's it. This is now the third of your Mount Rushmore we've covered. Yes, that's right.

[00:04:20] We rudely didn't book you on the first two. So rude. But Alex took one of them. Yes, yeah. So that's on him. That's his fault. And then I think Timothy Simmons did The Shining. He did. You could do Wilder. Oh, I'm sorry. No, right.

[00:04:42] You said Shining, Back to the Future. Okay, so Alex didn't take one. Alex did Clockwork. I mean, Wilder's... I mean, Wilder's one of the best things to a career. The movie that makes Tarantino want to retire. I just love that every interview they're like,

[00:04:58] why are you going to retire? He's like, don't want to make Buddy Buddy. Really? He says that? I've never seen Buddy Buddy. The last Wilder I've seen is Private Life of Sherlock Holmes, which is not bad. No, and which... Tarantino did a Video Archives episode on him

[00:05:14] was like, this is the one he should have ended on. Right, right. I think he was at the dance a little too long. A little too long. Yeah, I'm telling you, if you Google it so many times over the years, Buddy Buddy is the one. Introduce our show.

[00:05:28] This is Blank Check with Griffin and David. A searing, obsessive, investigative podcast. So this one week will turn into something of a true crime podcast, right? Yeah, right. So we'll finally hit the charts. Yeah, and I have my animal crackers laid out in front of me.

[00:05:44] It's a podcast... Ben brought animal crackers. Did you really? I didn't even know what I was setting up. Yep, Ben and I exchanged a knowing glance and out they came. Reclosable snack sack of Barnum's animal crackers. Oh, I couldn't get the damn box. No, of course.

[00:06:02] Why couldn't you? It was the best I could find. And the reclosable snack sack is so much better for audio. Yeah, of course, of course. That won't make any noise at all. This is Blank Check with Griffin and David.

[00:06:14] They're early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. And sometimes their checks clear those. Yeah, you messed up. Keep going, keep going. You're fine, you're fine. Getting over a chest cold, Leslie.

[00:06:30] This goes into the canon of movie Griffin's been waiting to talk about since they started the show and he's sick on the day of the record. Oh, you're fine. Sunshine, Fury Road, Spiderman 2, Zodiac, Starship Troopers, the episode where I vomited mid-episode.

[00:06:46] Yeah, but you didn't know you were sick at the start of that episode, right? That kind of came on you. You did. You just threw up during that episode, Leslie. Given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want and sometimes those checks clear

[00:07:00] and sometimes they bounce, baby. This is a mini-series on the films of David Fincher. It's called The Curious Pod of Benjamin Butt-cast. Right? And this is, look, it's usually we have an answer, but across this mini-series we keep going back and forth on what is the blank

[00:07:16] check in Fincher's career. It's tough to define. Sure, like where he had the most unfettered you think it's this? In a certain way, and we'll get into it, but there's something about this and Button being tied as productions. Are they tied as productions?

[00:07:32] They're very close together in time. And Warner's and Paramount team up for both and co-sign to co-finance both. I think each one taking a different stake. Paramount had this in America and WB had Button in America. But it was almost like Button was the guarantor for this

[00:07:48] which is wild when you watch Button and you go it's insane they gave him this much money to make this. It's absolutely insane. But they were like, if you make safe play Button for us we'll let you make your weird newspaper. Do you like Button?

[00:08:02] I saw Button in the theater and have not seen it since. You're like most Americans. I saw it with my friend Fenri who I also saw this movie with. And he sobbed uncontrollably at the end of it and I felt dead inside. So, never watched it again.

[00:08:20] You might feel different now that you have a kid, I'll say that. Speaking as someone who now recently re-watched it with a kid and was much more affected by it. I hear this. I've heard that that's the case. Today we're talking about Zodiac.

[00:08:34] All three of us agree that David Fincher is a masterpiece. Not to spoil anything but it's just undeniable. No, absolutely. I'm going to just really go hard not the Social Network. Just not. So you're saying you don't even like the Social Network? No, I like it. It's fine.

[00:08:50] It's not even in the same conversation as far as I'm concerned. I agree with that. I think it came at a particular time that everybody got on board with and so they got on board with a long talky movie about the Social Network. It's a Facebook.com.

[00:09:04] Whereas Zodiac I think suffered a little bit just in timing. I think if Zodiac came post us discovering you know, the identity of the Golden State Killer. Not the Golden State Killer. Zodiac comes out then, boom. Everybody agrees it's the masterpiece.

[00:09:20] This movie was ahead of the culture for better or worse. In a way that... It's a tone setter for yes. Social Network was as well but it was more tapped into the movie moment. Yes, it's good. I'm not saying it's not. You can say it's not.

[00:09:34] I just think some people list it as his masterpiece and I couldn't agree less. I love Social Network and I think it is a masterpiece but I think Zodiac is the elite tier of American film history. You know what I think it might be?

[00:09:48] I think it might be that when I think of a filmmaker's masterpiece there has to be that little bit of personal. And there has to be that tiny little drop of baby David Fincher in it. And that is Zodiac. You know, how

[00:10:04] he grew up, what Zodiac meant to him when he was younger. His dad was a newspaper man? We'll talk about it. Our guest today is Leslie Hadland, the great Leslie. We have to introduce you properly even though you introduce yourself very well.

[00:10:18] Director of, and I need to say this because I'm not blowing smoke up your ass, but there's a track record, there's a paper trail. I've said this on mic many times over the course of this podcast. I know what you're about to say. In my opinion,

[00:10:28] inarguably always my go-to answer is the best romantic comedy of the last 10 years. Thank you. When we bemoan the death of the romantic comedy and it comes up in discussion and people go, how do you bring it back and what was the last good one? I'm like,

[00:10:40] it's Sleeping with Other People. That's the model. That's the one. Thank you. It's the one that nails it for me. I really appreciate that. It was an extremely personal movie. It was a movie that I poured my entire heart and soul into and it was a genre that

[00:10:54] I really care about. Which you can tell. And I agree, it's really gone the way of streaming, I guess now. There really isn't a market for it. Bring it back. Great movie. Thank you. I mean, it is. You're an incredible filmmaker. Incredible writer, incredible playwright. I saw Bachelorette,

[00:11:18] Leslie, I didn't tell you this. Oh, the play? You saw it on stage? I saw it on stage at the second stage Uptown. Yes, that's right. Yeah, in 2010. And I was not dragged to it. That's going to sound harsh.

[00:11:28] It does sound harsh. Most people are dragged to theater though, I think. Well, so my brother works in theater and he was, I think, an intern at the second stage then or something? Oh, interesting. Okay. And he was like, come see this one. You'll like it.

[00:11:40] Like, you know, trust me, it's fun. I'm not dragging you to some eat your broccolis play or whatever. And it was so fucking good. Thank you so much. You're welcome. I love that play. Also a very personal play. Like also, you know, something I felt incredibly

[00:11:58] blessed to have been featured at the second stage Uptown. Like that was just such a, because I don't know if they still do that series. It's gone as far as I know. It was really, it really broke me as a writer. You know, like that was the

[00:12:12] moment. That was the moment, you know, like that and Terriers were like my first two things that I did. Well, Terriers was great. Yeah. It was like, it was Fran Crans, right? Yes. Fran Crans, Eddie K. Thomas, Catherine Waterston, Tracy Chimo, Celia Keenan-Bolger and my friend, Carmen Hurley.

[00:12:30] Yeah. And it was just one of those things where like there's the blowjob monologue like really early. Yeah. And the whole audience clearly just has this whole moment of like, okay, I guess now we know what we're in for. I would say that

[00:12:44] I always want to have some moment where you just let the audience know like if you don't like this, you're not going to like the rest of it. You might as well just leave right now because it's going to be this for 90 minutes.

[00:12:58] It's exactly what it felt like in the room. It was a small theater and you could just tell everyone being like, oh, oh, oh, she's still talking about it. Okay. Oh, she's not done yet. Okay. Okay. All right. All right. All right.

[00:13:10] That's going to be what this is like. And it's so good. Anyway. Oh, thank you. You're welcome. But to tie in like deep blank check lore that our lunatic Zodiac Killer adjacent fans feed on. Uh-huh. To build out the tapestry, you were on the same

[00:13:28] trivia team with Alex Ross Perry. Sometimes. That's correct. Sometimes. You were a guest. I was a guest sometimes on Love Interrupted Detective. Right. A great name. Great name. But the Videology Trivia League which looms large in the history of the show is the formation or the real

[00:13:44] cementing of our friendship. Yes. David and I. Yes. This podcast brings out of and there are people in the history of this show who we became friends with. Yes. Then and there at the trivia. And then there are people like Alex who we didn't even really

[00:13:58] connect with until years later and Nia DaCosta. But I just find it so funny the more it's like I think about Conan O'Brien talks about careers are like war movies where at the beginning you meet like the 15 guys in your squadron and then the movie goes

[00:14:12] on three hours and you keep on running into the same guys in the battlefield over like decades. Yeah. And it feels like that bar is like our training grounds. What was it called again? Videology? Videology. Yeah. Sad that it's you know RIP. RIP. Murdered by the Zodiac?

[00:14:30] He's back. Yeah. So yeah, Zodiac. I do think I agree not to spoil. This is Fincher's best film. Yeah. And it's the best film of a year that's sort of notoriously a good year for movies. You know the 2007 Dare Well We Blood

[00:14:46] and No Country for Old Men and Michael Clayton and a lot of big you know well remembered movies. Yeah. A year that is so good that it's hard to make a top ten with an unconventional pick. Right. You know? Like we have to include X.

[00:15:00] And you're like there's like a pool of 30 agreed upon fantastic movies from that year and if you're anything outside of the 30 you're like are you just trying to color outside the lines? Yeah. Are you just trying to be contrarian? Yeah. But in a year with like several incredibly

[00:15:16] valid kind of undeniable masterpieces, I do think over time this one has only kind of grown. Oh absolutely. Because I feel like I remember it coming out and there was sort of a resounding not with film nerds but I think with general audiences

[00:15:32] there was a resounding sort of yawn at this movie. Yes. You know? It was kind of long and you know there's no resolution which is sort of the point of the whole thing but it didn't feel like it hit in any way. No. No and it gets

[00:15:48] zero Oscar nominations. I mean I feel like a meme at the time was like Norbit won Oscar nom, Zodiac zero. That's right. Yeah. Because Norbit got the makeup one and that was always the comparison point that they were making but I was looking like there was only

[00:16:02] one critics group that gave this movie an award. Yeah. The Dublin Society of Film Critics? Well. Top of the morning to them. I'm giving them credit. Why do you think that's the case? Because it was released in March and

[00:16:16] then. Oh that's right it was released in March. And then by the time it was time for awards, No Country for Old Men and There We Bud had come out. Yeah. And there was this kind of like oh my god. That was such a dogfight. These big totemic

[00:16:28] movies. Oh yeah. Right. That's true. Which side are you on between those two? Which one were you? I was No Country guy. Yeah same. So was I. These days I'm kind of don't care. I like them all. I'm happy they're with us. I rewatched Either

[00:16:42] and Full in so long and I rewatched scenes from both all the time. Yeah. But I think like yeah it gets lost in a shuffle of a year where it's like you have movies like that that are connecting in a slightly larger

[00:16:54] way and then you have things that are like full on hits that are critically well regarded like Ratatouille. You know. Oh right. And then you have things like. Wait do you think that it's weird that they're kind of similar to Zodiac though? No.

[00:17:08] There will be blood, No Country. There's something in the air that year. Yeah. Weirdly you know and it's like. Lots of laughs. Lots of laughs. But even like. Like these nihilistic endings where you're like you know there's just there's no hope. Yeah and it is it's also kind

[00:17:24] of the peak of this like I mean Zodiac is not an indie movie. No. It's a studio film but like all the studios having their indie imprints putting out challenging-ish movies. Yeah. Something like Juno can take off and make a zillion dollars or I don't know what else

[00:17:40] was sort of like big that year you know like if you look at the Oscars it's like a dark year. Yes. Because like Michael Clayton is also that has a triumphant ending in a way like he. But it's dark. Like he beats them

[00:17:54] I guess but then you know get in the car starts driving. Nothing to do with himself anymore. You know the Diving Bone, The Butterfly, Sweeney Todd like Eastern Promises. These are like very bleak adult you know films that had broken through. Jesse James. I was gonna

[00:18:10] say Jesse James I think weirdly comes out much later and takes the Zodiac spot of the one the critics are fighting for. To nudge in. Sure yeah. Do we have any idea why the studio released it in March? Yes. We do which essentially

[00:18:26] is they thought it would not do very well. Well the other part of this was did it have a festival life? It released it at Cannes after it came out. Two months after it bombed in theaters. Because I was gonna say I was like wasn't it at

[00:18:38] Cannes? They put it at Cannes two months as Griffin is saying after it had bombed to even to Fincher's confusion. And lost the Palm Dwarf to No Country right? Yeah. But it also it not only did it lose No No Country was at Cannes.

[00:18:52] No Country was at Cannes. Well but that would be the year 2007. Well now I have to look it up. Maybe it didn't win but it was at Cannes. Looking it up. Okay. Jesus God. I'm forgetting what the Palm Dwarf would have been in 2007. Palm Dwarf in 2007 went to

[00:19:08] four months three weeks and two days. It's a very good film. Oh yes. The jury president was Stephen Frears that year. Yeah No Country I think did win director maybe or something. No Country. Nope didn't win nothing. Well no awards for No Country. Yeah no awards for No

[00:19:26] Country. As I always say the French title literally this country is not for the old man. Which I just would see on posters and laugh. That is fantastic. So good. It was supposed to be Paramount's big winter fall 2006 Oscar contender. And they were fighting him over length

[00:19:52] and then they kind of just threw up their hands and went we're just fucking releasing it in March. So by March it went from being a hot prospect to them to sort of a shrug and a surrender. But I do think weirdly

[00:20:06] 2006 was kind of a weak Oscar year. Yeah it could have won. Even if Paramount kind of dumped it but they dumped it November December I think it would have at least had like an insider type Oscar run where it's like to abandon this it bombed but critics

[00:20:20] love that. I love the departed but it's kind of weird that it won best picture. That's not the kind of movie that often wins best picture. Movies where Jack Nicholson picks up someone's hand in a bag and goes like that's not usually what they love.

[00:20:34] It would have been the movie of 2007 or 2006 I mean rather sorry. It seems like a giant fuck you. I think it was a bit of a fuck you but I also think at the time as much as we lionize this movie now David Fincher movies

[00:20:48] always come out and everyone's always like too cold every single time. It happens to this day it happened to make it's happening to the killer. And then five years later everyone's like we all agree he changed cinema on that day and like I'm just like

[00:21:04] you didn't fucking agree about anything. And I remember when Zodiac came out I was I was like 21 but I was like at the time I was like it's pretty weird this is just kind of getting dropped with like the March garbage

[00:21:18] you know just kind of like all right and I went to see it and I was like that thing was incredible. Was this post Zack Snyder taking over March? It's 300 March. It's the same March. Same March. I want to say 300. No 300 is wait 2007. Yes yes

[00:21:36] so it's like in the shadow of it. No it's a week later it's a week later. Oh. 300 is on the horizon. They kick him into the pit Yeah they just kicked him into the pit. No but you're right this is like a week after this movie comes out

[00:21:50] March becomes a legitimate time to release a movie and the week before that it was a garbage month. A garbage month yes. It changed immediately after. We will talk about the box offices this week. Yeah. Because that's what we do on this podcast obviously

[00:22:04] but Zodiac ran into a buzzsaw that was the other problem that nobody saw coming. Do you know what it is? I think I know what it is. Well we'll talk about it. I thought you were going to say we will talk about 300 and I said

[00:22:14] I'd rather not. I don't think we will. I'm not sure that's a good idea. I don't know maybe this is the moment. Bring it back Start poking the Snyder bear So yeah let me give you a little bit of context about Zodiac Leslie

[00:22:26] but then yes I do want to ask about you seeing the movie because we were talking about this briefly. I want to say one thing before we crack this open just to Leslie's point because I think it's a thing to pin on the

[00:22:36] cork board as we start putting a bunch of thread around building our Zodiac map at this episode. I think that's a reason why Social Network is so lionized. Yes. It is the only movie of his where everyone was unified at the moment it came out. That's right.

[00:22:52] It is the only movie in his career where when it came out it was a hit audiences liked it and critics liked it and it was an Oscar player and every other time he's been missing one of them and that everyone comes around later.

[00:23:04] Yes. My argument for that would be people appreciated the coldness because they were like... Because it was about a cold person. We need to take this guy down to some degree. And also that's 100% correct yes and also sort of like oh the Sorkin script

[00:23:18] did good in the fridge. Oh right. You know what I mean? Like oh that actually benefits from control. He was pulling something that was a little too hot. Yeah. And so that worked really well for everyone. I don't think there's another I mean Fight

[00:23:30] Club is sort of its own thing where obviously that went over poorly in a lot of ways but like I don't think people were like too cold. They were just like I don't know what to do with this but mostly it's like yeah

[00:23:40] if only like the meticulous little techno freak David Fincher had some blood in his veins like it's always the initial reaction and they're always wrong to be clear. Oh I think so too. Yeah but like that's the fucking endless read on him. I mean I think the flip

[00:23:54] of that and we'll get to this in its own episode but Gone Girl I think people are like well this is just kind of popcorn. Yeah but people were like this is fun but it's not serious. Gone Girl everyone liked

[00:24:02] but right they were like but we can't take this seriously yeah yeah yeah and uh come on. Do you like Gone Girl? I love Gone Girl. Gone Girl's the best. I have the cool girl monologue framed in my office. Is it true Alex was trying

[00:24:16] to get this right do you have two separate David Fincher related tattoos? I have Marla Singer. There she is with Slide underneath her. Oh that's so cool. I have I Am Jack's complete lack of surprise. Hey that's pretty good. Yeah I felt like

[00:24:32] you guys were a little harsh on Fight Club may I say? So you've listened to the episode. No I did listen to the episode and I don't It's not my movie I'll admit I have to I apologize if it felt like I was being too

[00:24:48] dismissive of it. Oh no I totally got what you guys were saying because with the easy writerness of it meaning that it's sort of like younger people now watching that film would be like us watching Easy Writer is that sort of what am I

[00:25:02] remembering that correctly? Yeah yeah I know exactly. And I did ask my younger cast for my Star Wars I actually did ask some younger cast members to watch Fight Club and I think that they did have that reaction. Interesting. Yeah. But to me Fight Club is Doctor Strangelove

[00:25:16] like it's a satire that stands up because what it's satirizing is evergreen which is male toxicity. You know like it's always going to be there. It's always going to be happening It's like That's a good take. You know what I mean? That's my take

[00:25:30] Yeah. But I also understood that in because I was texting with Alex about it fighting him with him and he was like you have to understand it was my whole life. Yes You know and I think that was the thing that that he was sort of reacting

[00:25:44] against. This is the one thing I want to say in our defense in this episode okay defense of that episode because this is one Fincher episode we're not recording wildly far in advance so we can actually respond to that

[00:25:54] Oh sure. Right. I don't feel the need to respond to all the criticism because I understand the note and I'm not placing any blame on him but I think you need to understand where David and I were coming from if I can speak for David. Alex says

[00:26:06] I want to do Fight Club. That was my whole personality for like 15 years and I think David and I both think great we can sit back He's going to come in and deliver the dissertation on a movie that was not either of our movie. Yeah. Right.

[00:26:22] And so I was just like I may be a little cooler on this than a lot of people. I have no aspiration to like note it or like create my thesis for why it's overrated or anything. Yeah. But I thought

[00:26:32] he was just going to lay it all out and I'd be like interesting case. Right. Which is what he done for the last couple of movies he came on for where it was like this is my whole personality and what we could not have anticipated

[00:26:42] is he rewatched it and went like I don't know if I like this anymore. Right. Right. Right. Right. Oh maybe it is kind of in the past for me. Right. Well it is it is and I don't think I've seen Fight Club as much as I've seen

[00:26:54] Zodiac. So I saw Zodiac when it came out. I saw I had some mishaps trying to see it in the theater because I was an assistant at the time and like I slept through one of them and you know

[00:27:06] like it was just it was a really bad year for me and just personally it was a really horrible year. So I but I had to see Zodiac because I was a massive massive venture fan. And so I went to go see a matinee of it

[00:27:20] at that AMC I think it is like an AMC on Broadway and 18th. Oh yeah. You know that one. Yeah. Yeah. The AMC on 18th. You know and you know just sat through it and the second like Hurdy Gurdy Man

[00:27:30] came on at the end I was like this is a masterpiece I have witnessed a masterpiece and then I walked out into like the brightest sunlight. Right. You know what I mean. Like I'm just like it was so trippy and I think that after that

[00:27:44] Zodiac once it came out on DVD and I got the director's cut and you know the commentaries which I'm sure we'll talk about I watched it almost every day. So I saw it in New York when I was an assistant. I quit my job

[00:27:58] which was very difficult and hard to do. I moved to Los Angeles with nothing and I start and I slept on a couch because I had no money and I shared the studio apartment with this other girl this roommate and I watched Zodiac every day and at

[00:28:14] one point she had an intervention with me and was like you have to stop watching Zodiac. As much as I adore Zodiac I might worry. Yeah. She was extremely worried about me. She was like I think that you have some mental issues you should work out.

[00:28:30] This is like when I was heartbroken when I was 15 and I watched The Wiz every day for four straight months. It's really it got me. You can like this movie but something else is going on. Something else is going on. It did get me through and

[00:28:42] I think because it's about obsession and it's about it's about a certain type of addiction like it got me through a period of my life that I don't know if I would have gotten through if I didn't have Zodiac. So it's not just like a

[00:28:56] cold movie that's investigative that has a nihilistic ending like to me it's so rich and beautiful and gorgeous and there's all these like nooks and crannies in it that you can just live in. It's like it's like Barry Lyndon for me.

[00:29:08] Like you know you just you can live inside the movie. You know like even more so. I've seen this movie many times not as many as you. I've seen it more times than you somehow. I find it to weirdly be a comfort food movie

[00:29:22] even though I find it very upsetting and disturbing. Absolutely my wife will say to me like when I'm very stressed out my wife will say do you want to go home and watch Zodiac? You know like do you want to go watch Zodiac? I'm like yes I do.

[00:29:32] It doesn't relax me but it focuses me. It sort of grounds me. I find it kind of relaxing and comforting and very funny and yes of course it contains depictions of murder that are chilling and realistic. Also just like the darkness of the human soul and like obsession.

[00:29:50] That's the comforting part. The instability. My whole thing with Zodiac and that's one of the only scary movies that Forky has watched with me multiple times in my life. Has he watched Zodiac with you multiple times? Now I understand why your marriage works.

[00:30:04] And she watched it with me the other night. It's like after the cabbie you're basically done with murder. Yes that's right. Because Fincher wisely is like I'm not depicting anything else where it's like who knows maybe this was

[00:30:20] a you know it's like no no no we are depicting confirmed Zodiac killings only. Where people survive because they don't show the first one. If we can't interview a survivor we're not going to do it on screen. Well the cabbie didn't survive but the cabbie was

[00:30:36] you know witnessed and so on. But yes correct. And then you're like yeah now we're just going to sink into obsession and yes there'll be scary stuff but like I we're going to be in diners explaining things looking through books. There's going to be harsh sunlight coming

[00:30:52] through like police stations there's going to be people going to the library. I love that it's these different kinds of investigations. It's detectives it's newspaper and it's cold case. Puzzle boy I call him puzzle boy. But yes he is what we have now. He like that's what he

[00:31:14] is as well. Leslie you saying this movie has nooks and crannies that you could live in. I had this thought verbatim re-watching the movie for the episode. I don't think I've ever had this exact thought before. It's not like this is a mental exercise I've run through before

[00:31:30] but I thought if I was forced to watch only one movie for the rest of my life and I had to watch that movie every day. That sounds torturous but yes right but that's part of the exercise. Right. I'm like what's a movie I

[00:31:46] would still find compelling every day and not get tired of. And there are movies I enjoy watching more than this but I think this is a movie I would never stop finding interesting and I would never lack in discovery of new things to sort of

[00:32:00] dig into and fixate on. I couldn't agree more and I think that part of it is that it's not a slave to the three act structure. It's interstitial. It's got this sort of episodic feel to it and not unlike The Shining it has this sort

[00:32:18] of labyrinthian feeling to it but no matter how many times you've seen it you're like wait is this the part where he goes to see Donald Logue or is this the part where you know he gets in the fight with Toshi. Like you can't

[00:32:32] quite remember what scene is coming next. I will never get to the bottom of it. But there's no scene where you're like It's never going to get repetitive. Every scene is three to four guys in a diner or an office chatting basically. Having the best conversation

[00:32:44] you've ever heard in your life. And you're like every scene you're like I can't go to the bathroom for this one. I have to watch. Yeah. I have to. It's fucking corker. Logue is back I absolutely adore this movie too because I think it does what

[00:32:56] Fincher actually does best You know what I mean? Like I think Fincher up until this point we've seen like flashiness to those films and actually what he is a genius at is blocking actors and staging camera. He's actually just brilliant at doing what the greats all can do

[00:33:18] and when it comes down to it you can either do that or you can't. Yes. And there are many directors that absolutely cannot do that who are lauded I think for their inventive sort of way that they put together a menacing

[00:33:32] scene. You know like the way that they throw a bunch of jump cuts together but all the greats Yeah. It's blocking and staging like it's so clear the way that he has I mean all you have to do is watch like the investigation of Paul Stein's murder

[00:33:48] the handheld section Is that the cabbie? Yeah. With Toshi and Anthony Edwards and Mark Ruffalo The way that's blocked is like I could watch that scene you know 25 times right now and probably find something new that I learned something from that scene

[00:34:06] It's like one of the, I don't say this lightly one of the greatest regrets of my life is I was invited by someone to attend Soderbergh at NYU giving a lecture on Zodiac On the killer to be clear not the film Yes. I think I know

[00:34:22] who it is and I'll only tell NYU students He did a lecture on Zodiac maybe like a year or two after it came out pretty fresh and it was just him and I don't think this was ever recorded but it was just him breaking down like

[00:34:42] scene by scene. You don't understand this is the guy working at the absolute top of the field right now in just the basic fundamentals of visual storytelling, of everything like meat and potatoes that movie making is and the term I heard he used

[00:34:56] all the time was just next level visual math That is exactly it and it's so unflashy but it's like this is Fincher doing his most sophisticated film where on a surface level it is the simplest, it is the sparest you know? Right, it's a movie where you're like

[00:35:14] wait why did it even cost money? I don't understand It's mostly set in an office and it is so expensive if you are a filmmaker and you watch Zodiac you can appreciate how expensive the film is how much digital work has been done in order to

[00:35:30] create the period, to recreate the waterfront even the Paul Stein cab moment, like you were saying not a survivor there That's why they use that bird's eye view of the cab because they're like, we don't know We don't know what happened inside, we know he got in

[00:35:48] we know they took him to Washington and Cherry and that's all we know so how do we shoot it? I mean just like his internal rules of like what we are showing you and when and how based on like the movie communicating to you the levels of reality

[00:36:04] of fact versus memory versus opinion All the way down to like Darlene Ferren hitting the turn signal when she gets shot every single detail I love that it starts out by saying that it's based on case files not by like this is based on a true story

[00:36:24] He says this is based on the case files. I don't know why but that always tickles me too I love that it says that rather than like inspired by a true story True events I love true, I love when events are true I love it

[00:36:40] Zodiac, let me give you some context from the dossier, obviously is coming five years after Panic Room, although I suppose you can think of it as sort of being intended as a 2006 movie Yes It is sort of a big gap in his filmography but obviously

[00:36:56] what does he work on in between that he never made, Rendezvous with Rama I think we will talk about again really wanted to make a version of that the Arthur C. Clarke novel with Morgan Freeman This gap is one of the periods where he

[00:37:10] spends a lot more energy on it but he even then was sort of like I can see the way this movie works and the technology is eight years away for me doing it Partly a digital hang up thing, he said he wanted to do it like

[00:37:22] John Krakauer's Into Thin Air don't even know what that means but sounds awesome like crazy sort of like the technical details of space exploration stuff When you dig into those, because there is one interview I feel like JJ is pulling from a lot that's from like 07 or 08

[00:37:36] That's him saying like I can almost see us being at the place where I could make it the way I want to and it's not there yet You wanted to do it like IMAX 4K and this is 2008 I think he wanted to do something

[00:37:46] similar to Gravity but even more hard sci-fi, hard science less pulpy, but it just didn't exist He also, as I think we've mentioned, was attached to a script called Seared that became the TV show Kitchen Confidential Right An adaptation of Anthony Bourdain's book

[00:38:04] He was going to make that as a movie with Brad Pitt That gets cancelled and then eventually we, as we've mentioned, he also later attached to Chef which then becomes Burnt also with Bradley Cooper So weird. But he was going to do it with Keanu, which is wild

[00:38:20] He was also supposedly attached to that David Benioff movie Stay, which Mark Foster made, famous twist movie Like one of the hottest scripts. With McGregor and Gosling. Yeah, that people were losing their minds over. Who's the female lead in that? Naomi Watts. Yeah. Yeah. And then everyone

[00:38:34] hated it. Hated it. What's the twist in that movie? Have you seen Stay? I haven't seen it. No one's ever seen it. It's not a real film. I'm like vaguely remembering it. It was one of those things that everyone was

[00:38:44] like, just wait, this is going to be huge and they came out and everyone was like, forget it we never mentioned this movie. It didn't happen. It's not real. Right. Don't speak of this film. But it was like four years of the hottest directors and stars all like

[00:38:56] clamoring to make this thing. You can't believe the twist in this thing and they're like, I won't tell you. People have explained to me what the twist is and it does not register. I couldn't process it. Right, right. And then it turned out he was

[00:39:08] from, and you're like, I know, I don't know what you're talking about. Yeah. The other big thing of course is he works for a while on Mission Impossible 3. That's the big one. He's sort of the first choice for it basically and you know. He announces

[00:39:20] Cruise has selected him. Fun to think about obviously. Because he was going to do, there was the World War II movie he was going to do with Pitt. Sure, we've talked about that. I can't remember which one. And when Pitt dropped out, it's somewhere there

[00:39:30] in the dossier, I forget the name of it. When Pitt dropped out, Cruise briefly thought about taking over. It was sort of one of those windows where it's like, we'll keep your development costs going if you can get an equivalent A-lister. Furtig. Furtig.

[00:39:44] Great title. So Pitt was attached for a while, Pitt drops out. This summer Furtig. He's trying to keep it afloat. He meets with Cruise. Cruise considers it passes but then goes, you know what? You passed my test. I want you on MI3. Cruise considered Furtig

[00:39:56] decided to do Last Samurai instead but then was like, here's a Robert Towns script for MI3. Yeah. I want to make it really nasty and violent. Fincher says, we don't know. Fincher is the one who said that we had a cool really violent idea.

[00:40:08] He doesn't say what it is. I don't really know what he means by that. Like, it's sort of weird to say our idea was violent. But who knows? Here's all I will say. I would say Carnahan is his replacement and then when Abrams comes on board, I think

[00:40:24] Abrams is sort of working with new material. He starts over from square one. Carnahan, I don't know how much in common the Carnahan version had with the Fincher version. But Carnahan is someone you turn to for violence. Correct. This is why I'm saying

[00:40:36] it did feel like Cruise maybe wanted to go harder and more violent. The thing I know that Carnahan has said in interviews is that his script was largely about drug trafficking in human bodies. Dear lord. He was putting drugs in dead bodies

[00:40:50] and that's one of the reasons everyone kind of panicked around it. It was really bleak. That sounds crazy. Just imagine the studio execs. They were using corpses. And now we're back to like, Ethan Hunt is like a close-up magician slash acrobat who does fun disguises. They're moving bodies

[00:41:10] stuffed with drugs or whatever this is. But just wild that Fincher even delivers full of microchips. Fincher sort of talks about it like I thought they were all kind of jazzed on the idea I had and then over time it seemed like

[00:41:24] they maybe wanted me to take notes from them. And it's wild that he even like... David, yeah. You've gone through Alien 3. I thought you learned hard and fast. Maybe you thought Cruise could insulate him? I mean, it makes sense why Cruise wanted him

[00:41:38] but it doesn't make sense why Fincher would want to do it. Why he would fall for it. Yeah, why would he fall for that? I mean, I don't know. I don't think there's an allure of, wow, like Cruise is the number one movie star in the world.

[00:41:50] Like this could be cool. But yeah. Every story I've ever heard about him which are all very, very... Pinchy? Or cozy? No, about Cruise. Which are all very third person. Very, very far removed. It's just that he can talk anybody into anything. Right.

[00:42:06] So I'm assuming he sat down and was like, Hey Finch... And I think he talks to him like, That's the number one thing that Fincher wants to do. I'm good though for some reason. But if you think about it, yeah.

[00:42:18] You mean that's eight egg white omelettes a day? He was... It's gonna be tough work. It was De Palma and then it was John Woo. And then, yeah, of course he wanted another... Yeah, that's the other thing. There's this kind of

[00:42:34] baton pass of like, oh, these are like huge thriller directors. I just think Fincher, every other point in his career, from Alien 3 on, anytime something like this is floated to him is like 99 out of 100 guys would fall for this. And I know. I went through that Cruise fall.

[00:42:50] I already did it. And this is the one time it felt like he let himself believe a little bit. Yeah, it was that Cruise magic. It's the Cruise magic. You're right. Some other things, and I feel like we've mentioned all these before.

[00:43:02] Lord's a dog town. He was attached sort of at one point, and then he was trying to mentor Fred Durst into making it. It was a Durst developed project. And then they were like, this is too big a budget for Durst. Right, it's kicked off.

[00:43:14] Fincher steps in and then is like, forget it. And I know in a classic kind of Fincher thing, the budget thing was he was like, okay, so I need 15 million dollars to reconstruct the pier. And they were like, David, and he was like, you have to

[00:43:28] rebuild the pier at full scale. So it's 1971 again. Oh my God. And he was attached to The Lookout, which is one of those movies that eventually gets made by Scott Frank with Joseph Gordon-Levitt. But like, that was a script that was attached

[00:43:42] to a zillion people. A little bit of a state script, but instead it turns out pretty well. And then Button, of course, which he's pushing up the hill for all of the 2000s. And they want him to do, and they think he's the guy who can

[00:43:56] finally sort of solve the movie for them. So I think Zodiac is like, he's already dancing with them on Button, and then brings a third into the dance. Which is why the dumping in March seems so weird to me. Because if they're so invested in

[00:44:12] him for the Button of it all. Yeah, Leslie, I don't know if you know this, but studios are often irrational and act against their own interests. Dump, dump. Do they? Oh my God. I don't know if you've heard the news. I don't know this.

[00:44:24] I'm so young. He's got a great quote in this dossier where he's like, you talk to studios and you pitch them a movie and they're like, $150 million that's too much. And then three years later they green light the same movie and say it's a bargain. Right, right, right,

[00:44:38] right. Because they've gone through some level whatever we don't have to. And then the other thing is, first he's going to direct a script that was written by James Elroy called The Night Watchman. That falls apart and then he gets attached to the Black

[00:44:52] Dahlia. And then he's like let's make this as a massive miniseries. TV, like, film level miniseries. He's basically pitching what he eventually gets to do. Which it should be, by the way. Yeah. Because those Elroy books which I love are all, you know, door stops. They're huge. And

[00:45:08] you know, he's like give me $80 million for a TV miniseries in the mid 2000s. That scene is ludicrous. Now that's... Limited prestige series is dead. It is never coming back. It will not in fact destroy movies. Now you're like, hey

[00:45:18] can I have $80 million for a TV show? They're like for one episode maybe. And then that turns into a movie that De Palma makes. A flawed but interesting film. Yeah. I would say. And so Zodiac happens. Shane Salerno. The... Writer of Shaft. Singleton Shaft.

[00:45:38] Yeah, why were we just talking about him? Well he's writing, he's in the upcoming... He's in the Avatar writers room. Avatar writers world. He wrote Alien vs Predator. Oh right. That's what we were talking about. An incredibly bizarre career. Yeah. A sort of like Wunderkin documentary.

[00:45:54] He makes a documentary in high school that gets picked up and then he gets brought into the NYPD blue writers room as the sort of apprentice and then is sort of off and running in this sort of true crime bent. He buys the rights to the book that

[00:46:10] you know, the real Robert Gates. Graysmith. Graysmith writes. Yeah. He loves the book when he's a teenager. Zodiac. Develops it for years, kicks it to James Vanderbilt. He of the Vanderbilts. But wasn't it with Disney? Yes. At some point? He signs up

[00:46:22] with Touchstone. Salerno sells it to Touchstone in like 99. Guys, remember Touchstone? I miss it! I miss it. I miss it. I miss Touchstone so badly. I want to touch the stone again. Bring me back pretty woman. You know it was an underrated period. Roger Rabbit. Well yes. Yes.

[00:46:38] Speaking of Roger Rabbit's in this movie. He's in this movie. You don't want to go in his basement. Oh yes. That's him. That's him. Speaking of Roger Rabbit, speaking of Touchstone. Speaking of Touchstone, I loved when Disney made their deal with Dreamworks and just briefly revived

[00:46:54] Touchstone to release the Dreamworks movies. Oh yeah, that's right. Where like Lincoln is a Touchstone film and Bridge of Spies is a Touchstone film. And it was like we had, like Touchstone had basically died and then there was like five years where that logo came back.

[00:47:08] It was lovely. Now it's gone again. James Vanderbilt, and I say this with all due respect to a man who's had a long and successful career in Hollywood, has never written a movie as good as Zodiac. Oh no. I have a couple theories on it. It's crazy.

[00:47:20] Well, yeah. I mean the main theory obviously is that Fincher worked on this movie and all that. But like it's just interesting that he, I think of him as a pretty reliable blockbuster kind of guy these days, right? He did Spider-Man. He does the

[00:47:34] Scream movies. He does the Adam Sandler Murder Mysteries. Two Roland Emmerich movies. Two Murder Mysteries. Right. It's like, yeah, okay. He's sort of like a pro, but he's not like, like this movie or like this screenplay is like a brilliant work of like research and order

[00:47:48] and like it's so, you know, and it's like just funny that he's the only credited script writer, but he is. This movie came out and you were like, I mean, Leslie, you know this better than anyone, but it's like oftentimes a writer's credits

[00:48:00] do not actually represent who they are in Hollywood where you're like, well you make 20 great scripts that are unproduced. The thing that comes out has been rewritten to shreds or whatever. And so he has like his year where he hits the map is

[00:48:12] He wrote three movies in 2003. Right. Darkness Falls, Basic, and The Rundown. And as he puts it, he says, a hot year in terms of just getting three scripts. Well, getting movies made is pretty impressive. But he says I had had three

[00:48:24] movies made. One was about a killer tooth fairy. That's Darkness Falls. One was this John Travolta Samuel L. Jackson movie that isn't Pulp Fiction. That's Basic. And The Rundown I do love, but it's the rock second action movie. Right. You know, it's not exactly Shakespeare.

[00:48:38] Right. Although now it's maybe one of his better movies. Definitely. It's a fun movie. But yes, when this movie comes out, you're like, oh, well, this is who this guy is. And now we're dealing with a fucking powerhouse. Yeah. And then it is when he starts getting hired

[00:48:52] onto like Spider-Man because he's originally hired to write Spider-Man 4 or 5 before it then turns into Amazing Spider-Man 1. He's writing a Raimi sequel that then gets rebooted and whatever. And I was like, well, this is equivalent to them hiring Alvin Sargent to write

[00:49:08] the Raimi films. Like I took that news as like, this is elevated. It's absolutely like the script reminds me so much of L.A. Confidential. Like it reminds me so much of that, like, you know, methodical. Methodical. It restarts in the middle of it.

[00:49:24] There's like, you know, that Wheel of Fortune scene in L.A. Confidential where all of this it's like you think it's it feels like it should be over and then boom, the movie starts up again. And literally each scene is like just as the scenes are

[00:49:36] ending, you can feel the next scene being like, get out of the way I'm here. There's just like there's such an artistry to it that I agree. It's a little incongruous with... Is L.A. Confidential one of your favorite movies? Because it's one of mine. I would

[00:49:50] say it's up there for sure. I mean, it was a huge movie for me. I would say when I was younger, I haven't watched it in a bit, but I would put it in the Zodiac category of like a nook and cranny movie that

[00:50:04] you can exist in and live in. And it's a whole world. And like again, you're like, which part is coming next? Is it this part or this part? The interrogation's coming up. Great. Great. I love this. Every scene is my favorite scene. Every scene is your favorite scene.

[00:50:18] And it really does feel like it follows Zodiac feels like it follows in the footsteps of that. A couple important script context things. The Salerno script was much more of a thriller. Yeah, well it has this... The big hook. This concept of like and then the

[00:50:36] Zodiac returns. Right. Like it's set in modern day San Francisco and he's back. So it's sort of like an adaptation of Gray Smith's nonfiction book and a speculative sequel. With the what if all of a sudden we got another letter. We all know that

[00:50:50] Custer died at Little Bighorn. What this book presupposes is, what if he didn't? That's basically like Shane Salerno in 1999 being like, what's the version of this that's sellable to Disney? And Shane Salerno scenes like again, The Man Wrote Alien vs Predator. He's more in the lurid

[00:51:08] space. Yeah, but also like he's writing a lot of like true crime stuff at this point in time. But I think he's like, the whole thing that makes this movie so great, but makes it so difficult is that it's like there is

[00:51:20] no resolution and we have to live with the lack of resolution. And he's trying to make a movie where someone can win. There can be some closure which means you need to tack on fantastical thriller. Vanderbilt is very much in his pitch notes being like

[00:51:34] there will be no resolution. Because he's going to Graysmith and Graysmith's like, I've been down this road. And his pitch to Graysmith is, I'm gonna do the movie that lives in the space of what this actually was. The frustration, the obsession, the longing.

[00:51:48] And Fincher when he reads Vanderbilt's script, because Fincher is the first choice because he made Seven. But I'm sure Fincher, that's the thing. Ever since he makes Seven, if there's some serial killer movie, is getting sent it and going like, well

[00:52:00] I don't want to do that. But of course, the Zodiac Killer is much more meaningful to him. Vanderbilt says, they told me, well we're going to offer it to Fincher. And I went, great. Let's get that out of the way

[00:52:08] so we can go on to the list of real killers. Why would he want to do this again? And Fincher, obviously, yes. He grew up in the shadow of the Zodiac, so it's like in his brain in a way that most, but he's

[00:52:18] also like, I see this as a newspaper story, like an All the President's Men kind of movie. And Vanderbilt's like, yeah, okay you get it. Not only does this guy want to do the movie, which I wasn't expecting, but he

[00:52:28] wants to do this movie for the reasons I didn't think he would want to. Right. And then Fincher says to him, great. So now you need to go and spend the next 18 months interviewing every single person. He was like, anyway, now

[00:52:40] we'll read a couple books and then let's start production in two weeks. Yeah, no, then they're like, right, we're going to interview every single survivor, every fucking cop and journalist we can get our hands on. That's the thing, like you imagine 18 months of like deep

[00:52:52] research. You imagine the script was very good at the point that Fincher read it, but it was a script that was an adaptation of the book. Yeah. And then he was like, now you need to essentially become Robert Graysmith, do your own investigation. Yes, exactly.

[00:53:04] Dig into all of these people. Yeah. And like just deepen the script. Yeah. Which is just circumstances that are kind of like unreplicatable in terms of why this script stands out in the rest of his career. Yeah. Um, like Graysmith is so full of praise for him

[00:53:18] and my favorite thing is that him being like, you know, the attention to detail this man had and all that, is that like there's no flashlight shot in the movie where you can really see the flashlight on the road. Mm-hmm.

[00:53:30] Even though the Zodiac Killer had claimed he could put a flashlight on his gun so that you could see it. And Fincher went to a flashlight museum. Stop. And said like, so in 1969 were there bulbs that existed that could have done this? And they like searched

[00:53:44] their bulb archive and were like, no, there's no way. And Fincher was like, then it couldn't be done. Like, and so the flashlight will look like this in the movie, like shit Where is the flashlight museum? Great question. I'd love to go there with

[00:53:56] David Fincher. God, with David Fincher, please dear lord. Patreon app. God, that made me really excited. I'm just, I'm not gonna lie. No, it's so good. I'm very I'm very titillated by that story. Graysmith's quote is essentially he outdid the police, my hat's off to him.

[00:54:10] Oh my god. Right, he came in with questions that people had not asked in 40 years of investigating this case. Right. Well, I think isn't that part of the appeal of Graysmith in general to as well like in writing the book was that

[00:54:24] he was just the guy that like it didn't feel like a reporter. It didn't feel like a cop. He's not Department of Justice, right? He's not like some, you know, monkey on their back. He's this nerd. Which by the way is I think the way

[00:54:36] that Fincher kind of Trojan horse his studio into green lighting this movie is that pitch sounds a little sticky of like, and he's just some guy. He's a cartoonist who finds himself in the Senate. He's an everyman. And it's Jake Gyllenhaal coming off of Brokeback.

[00:54:50] You know what I mean? Like, couldn't be hotter. You know? And it's me doing Serial Killers again. Yes. Right. Like you can see them ignoring what the actual script is. Exactly. They're just so excited. They're just

[00:55:00] like so over the moon. And they know how they can sell a movie like that. And then they get a three hour Right. They're like, why is it long? Why is there a three minute sequence of them talking on the phone to German Mulroney

[00:55:10] literally doing what cops have to do of like, here are the various reasons we deserve a warrant. What are you talking about getting the warrant? Which is not in the theatrical cut. It's only on the DVD. Right.

[00:55:20] Because that was one of the scenes where the studio is like absolutely not. Get the fuck out of here. Yeah. Fitcher's like, I thought it was funny, you know, because it was kind of like Charlie's Angels. You know? That's his joke. Yes.

[00:55:30] He's like, I thought it was a joke. And the studio is like pulling their hair out. They're like, it's two hours into the movie. We know they need a warrant. Like, come on. Do you realize Graysmith meets Toski at one hour and 40 minutes into the movie.

[00:55:46] Way into the movie. Of course. And like, it's again, it's not like a movie where they're like, part one, the journalist, part two, the cops, part three, Graysmith. It's like baton passing back and forth. Those three guys. This is why it's like LA Confidential though. It's those three

[00:56:02] guys. It just kind of seamlessly. The movie just kind of like passes it. There's different alliances. Exactly. We're going to pass it off to Avery. Now we're going to pass it off to Toski. And then Avery kind of like, he's like halfway, two thirds of the way

[00:56:14] into the movie. Like he's basically gone. Like the Kevin Spacey character. Well, he departs all right. But he's also like still alive. Roll a Tomasi. Avery's still alive but like haunting the movie like a ghost. Every once in a while you see him again you're like, fucking library.

[00:56:30] He's a ruined man in the wake of this. Dude, Gray, what are you talking about? You don't play Pong drinking quarts of vodka in the morning on your houseboat. God, this fucking movie. I love this movie so much. Everyone who made

[00:56:44] the movie basically was like, it was like Chinese water torture. David Fincher is a maniac. I respect and love him, but oh my God. Oh yeah, the first scene that they shot was the scene on the steps where he's like, you know, stop calling my house.

[00:56:56] It's like after he's been accused, Toski's been accused of writing the letter. Right. And they said that he shot it 56 times. Yeah. And they were just like, help. I would say Gyllenhaal's the biggest on the record baby about it. Partly I think because he

[00:57:08] would even say now like, yes, I was sure about it a little bit. He's 26. Very young. 27. And yeah, 1980. So yeah, it'd be about 25, 26. Downey's happy to be there because he was uninsurable two years earlier. For Downey I think it's huge but Downey is hilarious and rueful

[00:57:24] about like, it's a lot. And there's the anecdote about him peeing in jars and like bringing them around being like I can't go to my fucking trailer so I guess I'll pee in this jar. Yes. There's a really good anecdote. Gyllenhaal has the Fincher paints with people line.

[00:57:38] It's tough to be a color where I'm like, poor baby. Happened to be in the best movie ever made. He's also so good in it. That's the thing that's so annoying is because like... He's really well cast. You listen to him on the commentary

[00:57:48] and he's such, he is, he's actively complaining in the commentary and saying, you know, oh we had to do this so many times or we had to do this. But he's so good in it that it's kind of strange to me. Because also, you know, after this

[00:58:04] movie, doesn't he kind of go down like a weird space? He goes down a very weird He has a little bit of a weird run. And then we get prisoners and he's back. Yes. Make your point Griffin, but yes, then write a note on

[00:58:14] Gyllenhaal. When is this film shooting? What's the run of the shoot? I want to make sure I'm not wrong before I say this. Basically September 2005 to February 2006. So this is a big part of it, I know. And there was sort of like whispers and gossip

[00:58:30] around this in comment section at the time and now in later interviews both of them have corroborated this. Okay. This movie is filming during the Brokeback campaign season. Right, right. Got it, got it. It starts filming basically right as the movie's premiering. Yeah.

[00:58:46] At the festivals, the fall festivals running through the whole season. He wraps right before he actually has to go to the Oscars and he's like the guy. He's now being pushed as like finally maybe his moments like coming to escalate up to like the A-list status.

[00:59:02] And Fincher will not release him to do shit. Right, right. And Fincher's like you signed up. You're here. You have to be 100% focused in on this, right? And the other times he's worked with like A-list actors, it's someone like Pitt who's like I need to like rebuild

[00:59:18] myself. Right and also Pitt's like I don't want to play that game. I don't care. Yeah, that's true. I'm giving myself over to you. Break me and rebuild me. Like when Pitt played the game to win the Oscar for Hollywood. Yes. That was him finally being like, oh,

[00:59:32] you guys want me to like show up and smile and like do some jokes. I'll do that. I'm divorced. They were like, take the Oscar, please. But he had been like ignoring that for a long time. But I think John Hall's like this is my moment.

[00:59:44] Everything's being handed to me in every sense. A, I'm not going to these like awards functions. He's not letting me attend them, right? B, there's all this other press I can be doing. Fincher was like he was constantly surrounded by like 10 people.

[00:59:56] I'll give you the line. Yeah, exactly. Right. He says Jake was in the unenviable position of being young and having a lot of people buy for his attention while working for someone who does not allow you to take a day off. Mr Fincher,

[01:00:08] he made a bunch of movies. I don't think he'd ever been asked to concentrate on minutiae. I think he was very distracted. He had people whispering that Jarhead was going to be a massive movie that put him in another league because that's right. I'm going to come

[01:00:18] out. Yes. Every weekend he was being pulled to go to Santa Barbara and the Palm Springs Film Festival and the expletive Catalina Film Festival. Guess Catalina doesn't meet David Zuh. The fucking Catalina Film Festival. And when he'd show up for work, he was very scattered. He had his

[01:00:34] managers and his silly agents who were coming to his trailers at lunch to talk about the cover of GQ. That's the exact thing Fincher doesn't want. He was being nibbled to death by ducks and not particularly smart ducks. Right. It was hard for him to hit the fastball.

[01:00:46] Now, the way Fincher's talking about it, you're like, it almost sounds like, and that's why he's terrible in the movie. And you're like, you got a very good performance out of it. Don't think it was like it was deliberate or by design, but all of that actually

[01:00:58] kind of helps the movie. I think it helps latter half grace him being trapped in the film. Yes. And being forced to obsessively do this over and over again. I think he's like, not just I want to get my flowers and fucking like own this award season

[01:01:14] and go to every like banquet and whatever where Fincher is like you get to go to like 5 percent of them. Yeah. But also people are like strategizing. He's at like presidential campaign level of like, are you going to be a major movie

[01:01:26] star? Yeah. Where they want him to do everything and he probably also wants to go out and fucking party and shit. I also think that it doesn't help that the character is so passive for the first half of the movie. Yeah. A lot of

[01:01:38] scenes of him being a little goose. So many scenes are him sort of just reacting. And Ruffalo and RDJ are so cool in this movie. Exactly. And it's like Ram playing the Boy Scout. And to do 60 takes of like reading a letter. Or scribbling down a thing.

[01:01:50] Or reacting to like, oh I guess my theory is wrong. You know like it just I can I can see that sort of also grading on him. Like where's my moment? Like when do I get to? I think so much of it

[01:02:02] is that it was also just like the fact that it was the Brokeback Award season. No you're right. No it's the only Oscar season he ever got to be a part of thus far. There is an exchange on the David Pryor extensive making of documentary that I

[01:02:18] that I think about all the time where Fincher is doing what is clearly like take 60 over the shoulder close up of his hands scribbling something. Right? Yeah. And he's giving him some note. And like Jungho looks up to him like a little kid wanting the

[01:02:34] approval of your dad at the baseball game. And he's like, I'm good at inserts right? Like I think I'm like particularly good at inserts. And Fincher in his way goes like no no no you are you are good at inserts. You know it's the actual like dialogue

[01:02:48] scenes that aren't usable. Oh my god David! And he's like and then he kind of hits me he's like I'm kidding I'm kidding. And Jungho's like yeah yeah yeah but I am good at inserts right? Oh my god. And Fincher's like yes yes you are. And he goes

[01:03:02] and you know why because I understand why they're important. And he's like so desperate to be like I want you to give me the credit for acknowledging that I understand that this isn't meaningless. Yes yeah. I'm really trying to focus on like giving you

[01:03:14] what you need. I don't think because it's just my hand it's not acting. But it's like their whole dynamic in a nutshell. Yeah. You can extrapolate from that. Yeah. My favorite line actually is Ruffalo saying like I did my first day with 68 takes with Jake

[01:03:28] it's the scene you were talking about. Oh 68 yeah. I was like please kill me. And Fincher came over walking up at some point I was like I hope he's coming here to fire me. The idea of like

[01:03:38] one day and you're like I hope Fincher's gonna be like Mark that's enough. That's enough. Yes. The actors who work best with in Fincher's system and it does feel like Ruffalo got there by his admission he was the one who took to it the most. He says

[01:03:52] I finally understood quote he's taking a stab at immortality which I think is a really great line from Ruffalo. Yeah. Yeah. Like he he decided good enough is not fucking good. Which is a great line as well. Yeah. But I think Ruffalo's kind of a great guy.

[01:04:06] People like Eisenberg talk about and it's kind of surprising that it comes from him considering how neurotic he is. Yeah. But that he's like at a certain moment it actually becomes comforting to go like there is so little pressure on any one take. As much as you know

[01:04:20] he's like striving for immortality and perfection. He's giving you the space to have each take just be like and just try stuff. And just do it. If we're gonna keep doing it we're not moving on until we have it. So rest assured I will not let this

[01:04:34] be done until I have the take I want. And Gyllenhaal talks about like for me I like the pressure cooker of you only have five takes to get this right. Right. Right. Right. I want the risk. There is something about that in

[01:04:46] my experience where you're like oh my god we're running out of time or we're gonna get kicked out of this location or whatever it is and it's like okay you know it's like famously Tommy Lee Jones did that you know big monologue

[01:04:56] in the in the Fugitive twice. Yeah. You know they had two takes that they just like you know spliced together and then that was it and you know wins him an Oscar. Yeah. You know like it's like there is something about that. I think

[01:05:06] that when you watch Fincher's stuff though it seems like it would be impossible to again his staging with camera it would be impossible to do unless you've done it 56 times. Because the camera is moving perfectly. Yes. The camera's not just like sort of like

[01:05:24] tilting up when Gyllenhaal stands up when he's talking about you know door to door you know I've walked it like that whole diner scene at the end. Like so incredible scene. But even just the way the camera moves to capture him like as

[01:05:38] a director watching that move you're like your camera guy and the actor and everything everything has to be working at the same moment. Yeah. So that it's perfect. And I envy the money and the time and the power that Fincher has to do that and yet

[01:05:54] at the same time I'm not sure that I would be a better filmmaker if I had that. To be quite honest. It's a specific mind. Yeah. But like in my past experience as an actor the most frustrating feeling in the world

[01:06:06] is to be like that was the take. Yeah. And you like hit your fucking like scene scene made on the shoulder and you're like that was it we fucking got it. And then you hear someone go like sound was off on that one. Right. And then the director

[01:06:18] yells from behind the monitor like okay so we'll go with take three versus Fincher being like if sound is off but performance was right in that one we're going to keep going until the take where both are correct. It's not just about making actors do it 80 times. No.

[01:06:30] That's the thing that people lose that I think. I agree. I agree when they talk about him. I think there they talk about they're thinking he's exacting on the performances. He's exacting on every single aspect of it. You just can't do what he does. Unless you're doing

[01:06:48] takes you know that are in the double digits. I just I think it would be impossible. I agree with you. I mean it's a really good Downey anecdote that he told recently and doing sort of his really good career look back stuff in the Oppenheimer press tour

[01:07:02] where he was like I found it so frustrating and there was a day and Downey I think prides himself on being like I fucking I can nail it. Yeah. Like even when I was back down on heroin

[01:07:12] I could do it. I mean. I could get it in three takes. Yeah. Right. Like I get results. Home for the holidays. Yeah. Most relaxed performance in history. I'll give you the Downey quote now and then we should talk about

[01:07:20] the plot of the movie but I do love this particular quote. This might be a different one than the one that Dossier said. Sometimes it's really hard because it might not feel collaborative but ultimately filmmaker is a director's medium. I just decided

[01:07:30] aside from several times I wanted to garrot him that I was going to give him what he wanted I think I'm a perfect person to work for him because I understand gulags. That's the great quote. The one he said on the Oppenheimer press tour was that like they

[01:07:42] were doing 60 takes of some scene right with him and Jyln Hall and he was just like David what is the fucking hold up? Yeah. I guarantee you 10 of those were usable. I know it. I know it. Even if you're being as like discerning as you are. Right. And

[01:07:58] Fincher was like okay Robert come back here with me and he made him watch all the takes on the monitor and he went Robert what do you think? Do we have it? And he went No you're right we don't have it. And Fincher steps out. He's

[01:08:12] right I hate to admit it. Right and Fincher steps out from Video Village and he went I thought it was good enough but Downey Jr said we don't have it so we're delete them all. Delete them all. Get rid of them. That's the other problem.

[01:08:24] But he's like that's the moment where I went he is right. This is also the first movie where he's shooting digitally obviously which is a crucial part of this movie. And it looks gorgeous. It looks incredible. How? A film that was shot in 1080p. 1080p it looks stunning.

[01:08:38] Unbelievable. But it does also mean that he is literally from Video Village going delete that take. And I think it's crushing for people like Jyln Hall who's like I've made it to here like yeah a recycling bin for that one. Or Robert Downey Jr who's like

[01:08:54] I have battled against the fucking tsunami of drug addiction for 20 years. I'm here again and it's like delete. Do you think the sound of the trash when you drag it plays on set? Yeah Fincher would put a microphone up to the yeah you know.

[01:09:10] So yeah like that must have been demoralizing but you know what they made one of the great movies. It's the Ruffalo thing. It's the stab at immortality and they did it. Right yeah. Paris Savita shot this movie maybe like the best cinematographer of my lifetime.

[01:09:24] Gone far too soon. Yes and I do think that's part of why it looks so god damn good. It's just like it doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make I mean as somebody that only shoots on digital and was only given the opportunity

[01:09:36] to shoot on digital never was I there was never a conversation that I've ever had about film versus digital. It was just like if you want to make this you're shooting you know on the red. You're shooting on the Alexa. You're shooting

[01:09:46] that's another reason this is one of my favorite movies because it's like it can look gorgeous. It gives you hope. It gives me hope. I'm just like it can look absolutely stunning. The Thompson Viper. The Viper yes. That's right. It feels like Fincher is man used that

[01:10:02] on Miami Vice as well. Sure. Did he use it on Collateral? I'm not sure I think no. I think on Collateral he was using my cell phone. I was going to say yeah my cell phone from the time. He was using my Nokia 3300.

[01:10:18] No Fincher is just so good. I love how Collateral looks but it's of its moment. But it looks like shit. It's always looking like shit. Yeah. You know. Park Chan-wook also used the Viper from Thompson Viper on I'm a Cyborg. Yeah. No Fincher just knows

[01:10:32] how to like this is a period where people are still like how do we make video look exactly like film. And he's like no you need to like push up the things that only video can do. Yes. And this is an off use Sims term a Simsian

[01:10:48] phrase that I think about a lot. This is a movie where the look of it makes your teeth hurt. Oh yeah. In a good way where there's something about like there's something a little too clinical too clear I can see

[01:11:00] too much I guess. Even though it's a lower resolution than we're now used to this film feels clearer I watched my Blu-ray Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if it looks worse on streaming or something I watched the Blu-ray. Yeah. The other thing with video he just says

[01:11:16] it was like less about him liking digital cameras more and more about workflow. He that's what he always says he's like I like to work in low light it's perfect for that. Yeah. I you know I like to be able to look at takes and sort through them

[01:11:28] I get a bigger monitor that's more representative in real time of what it looks like He talks like that. It's easier to adjust the image he knew he was going to do all digital broad. And then it's just critics who are like he can see

[01:11:38] across America's digital horizon and he's like if you say so it plugs into my Mac. That's what I like about it basically he was like I'm fired. Right. Exactly There's a quote in the dossier of like I just never again wanted to sit around

[01:11:50] and watch someone take a thousand dollars of film out of a camera get a black bag put a thousand dollars worth of film into the bag back into the camera and just like sit on my ass while that happens Okay can we talk about the movie

[01:12:04] Zodiac begins with the Rivers Lane and Vallejo killing right that's the first sequence. You don't see the first killing because it had no survivors and thus. And also it's sort of like it's how people discovered the Zodiac murder was

[01:12:18] a murder happened and this guy was like I did this and also by the way I did that other one By the way yeah yeah. Right so you have to start it and be like this is the beginning and then immediately be told no this is now basically

[01:12:30] the start of a pattern that's being linked back to it and you didn't see. I just remember sitting in the theater and hearing like goodbye and just being like I've never been so scared in my life Something that I think the first scene captures is like the real

[01:12:44] randomness of the violence Of course once you finish the movie everything like any good cold open. Everything you need to know is actually in the beginning you know like you understand who Darlene is you understand that she's married but she's with Mike you understand that

[01:13:02] she is scared of somebody like all of those things that get revealed later Right when you're watching it the first time you're like she clearly just wants to like make out with this guy and he's being kind of nervy and she's annoyed about it

[01:13:14] And then there's like a creepy car okay okay great you know but the idea of like a random act of violence that's seemingly motiveless. Yes. It's not on their mind. Not on their mind and I think it's not on our minds you know normally

[01:13:30] Well it's on my mind because the film is called My Stub Says Zodiac so I am worried about it. No I'm like so tense in the fucking theater. Yeah. But yes of course right it's not that's not what they're thinking when they're going to lovers lane like

[01:13:44] what if we got shot though by the Zodiac killer Are we gonna talk about the Dolly shot at the beginning? Yes. Sure. What the hell? Okay. What the hell? Back we go. Sorry sorry sorry No no it's fine. But what the fuck like that's the type

[01:13:58] of thing that as a filmmaker you're just like if I pitched that you know I would be laughed out of the room. Like people would say I'm so sorry please you're excused. Thank you so much for being here but we are. Thanks for playing but we

[01:14:12] never want to see you again. Attach it to the attach the camera to the car and shut the fuck up. Like everybody does. Like everybody else. And he builds what 40 miles of track. Like 40 yards of fucking Dolly track just to and

[01:14:28] it is that panic room kind of thing as well. Just like the camera kind of perfectly moving gliding seamlessly to like bring you into this like you know here's the suburban tableau of Americana. This coming after panic room it's like he's really just strengthened that

[01:14:44] sense of like camera as a character. There's this unearing quality to like this this camera that seems to be moving with a mind of its own. Is he Hitchcock's successor in certain ways. Yeah I think no. I think he would. I mean he obviously cites Hitchcock so

[01:15:02] massively but like so did so many people. But like I think Hitchcock would watch something like Zodiac and be like oh don't. Why is it so fucking long. Yeah you know fair enough fair enough. Right like yeah. Yeah like Hitchcock could be like this is not really obeying

[01:15:16] my kind of taught you know storytelling sensibilities. He's using a lot of the tools. It's like he inherited a lot of the equipment. Yeah. Yeah. Do you know the thing about the clothes. The clothes. I mean this is the clothes. What about the clothing.

[01:15:28] This is such a like Fincher being vindicated by the obsessiveness of like getting the details right. He said like people always ask me when I was gonna make my Amacord and this is it. Yeah. And he's not a character in it but he is because he's growing

[01:15:42] up in this era and also because it's a movie about like the movie about the pursuit of. Yes. The kid what's his name. Mike Michaud. Yes. Yeah. Lee Norris is the young Mike Michaud. So it's Fourth of July in real life the real Mike Michaud. Right

[01:15:56] was wearing three pairs of pants what three sweaters and a shirt over it because he was cold or because he was trying to look beefy. No one knows. No one knows. But it's a hard fact that the conspiracy theorists are like he like bulked

[01:16:10] up which is why he survived sure because he had a feeling he was gonna be in danger even if it wasn't the Zodiac there's the feeling of being a husband or something. Right. And he was sort of insulated in this way

[01:16:22] it makes sense that's part of why he's right. Because why else would he be wearing five layers and like. To look bigger than he was because he was a teenager. Which is the second part of it right like well that's just this weird

[01:16:30] human little emotional nugget that you would never think to write. Yes. But he's also there and isn't unpacked or explained. He's look I mean they talk about it in the movie but he's this interesting thing of like there was a survivor but they could never

[01:16:42] talk to him. Yes. Because he just left he was just like I don't want to talk about it. Done. Yeah and like they're like no we really are trying to figure out who shot you though. And he was like I don't care I'm going off the grid

[01:16:52] like and it's the 70s so you won't find me like and and so he did and then when he resurfaced two years later she was like John Carol Lynch guy kind of looks like the guy anyway how you doing. Great as ending. Great Jimmy Simpson amazing. Yeah.

[01:17:06] Yeah okay so we have that and is that the real 911 call or it can't be right? I think it can't be. Right I think that would be crazy. Yeah. But that's that call like the goodbye is so freaky. It haunts me. But then

[01:17:22] after that okay we're in the we're in the credits I'm now actually just watching Zodiac I just have it on. Because then you're sort of doing the mail cart through the Chronicle office. Yes. Establishing the space but also giving you the vibe the energy.

[01:17:36] You get the recreation of the newsroom but also the the history of San Francisco. Yeah. The Transamerica building isn't built yet. The highway that collapsed in the earthquake he's rebuilt like you know he wants to start with that you know like he wants to start

[01:17:54] with like it's San Francisco. Right like full time machine we're not going for pastiche or kitsch or yes. The great John Getz as the editor in chief. As good as it gets. Doing looking at his cartoons which do look really bad. Horrid. Horrid. Horrid. Slightly less

[01:18:10] horrid. What is it? Not so horrid. Let's go with not so horrid. Yeah do you think Grace Smith was good because you're like you don't give me incisive political cartoonist vibes right like when you're like seeing him in this movie.

[01:18:22] Not in the movie. Yeah. Do you think he was a good cartoonist? He was like a skilled draftsman with no voice. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I should look that up like Robert Grace Smith's cartoons. It's like sort of telling where he ended

[01:18:34] up not only just like in this but then he just continued writing like true crime books. Yeah. Right. Because he wrote autofocus as well. He sure did. Oh that's right. Yeah. He just like stayed in this zone. He's good at sifting through source materials. Yes. Human darkness. Yes.

[01:18:52] Yeah I'm looking at some of his cartoons now and they're not very good. It looks like yeah nope that one's bad too. Okay. I could only find three but they were all really bad. Okay. Okay so let's keep it going guys. What else is happening

[01:19:11] in Zodiac? The letters arrive. John Terry as well. I love John Terry with the glasses on his nose. Yeah he's so great. This movie is obviously just like you know 50 something male character actor porn. I also love that in this scene when they get the letter you

[01:19:25] don't really have that the only thing I can think of is like the basic version of this scene is like they read the letter and everyone's like oh my god. Oh my god. You know like literally everyone's just trying to figure it out. Day at the office.

[01:19:37] Do we know if this Vallejo story is true? And he's like I cover crime in Vallejo. You know like it's. I cover crime in Vallejo. Yes. You know it just it's a bunch of newsmen doing their jobs. Like they don't really grasp. The debate is

[01:19:51] more than anything it's what page do we put this on. Yeah exactly. And what do our competitors do. Yeah and what are our competitors doing. That is the only debate to that. Yeah. They are still like is this basically Crankpot you know shit but they're

[01:20:03] kind of like will we look stupid or get scooped if we don't put it on or if we do put it on. The guy who brings up is it you're responsible to publish him is like ignored immediately. Ignored immediately. Yeah. And like they I mean

[01:20:17] you know I've heard many tales of journalism they do the weird sort of thing where they're like well we'll put it on page four and it's like that's it's cover or not but whatever fine you split the difference. Good job guys. And then Robert Downey Jr.

[01:20:29] as Paul Avery you immediately get the generational divide thing. Like all these guys in their white collar shirts. Oh yes and he's wearing that beautiful vest. Yeah. The only guy who's like influenced by Haydn Ashbery. Yeah he's clearly just younger

[01:20:41] and a little more plugged in than these guys which is fine I mean these would be guys who were born like pre-World War I. These you know 50 something newspaper editors. Absolutely. Yeah and like you know the Chronicle. I think the Fincher take method bearing out

[01:20:57] like Downey Jr. could do this in his sleep even at this point in his career where he really has something to prove. No but he absolutely could. But the magic of Downey Jr. is that it almost always seems like he's doing it in his sleep.

[01:21:07] Totally. Right. Yeah. But like there's something about not using his hottest take. Yeah. And using the take where he's a little burnt out and he almost is like doesn't have the energy to like throw the asides out to the room. Right. Right right right. He's kind of like

[01:21:21] throwing them away as he walks away. Like there is something performative about Paul Avery and I think that's kind of what you're getting at you know but you're right he doesn't pick the takes where he's performative. No and no one else reacts to it. Yeah. With anything

[01:21:33] other than frustration that he's doing his bits, his routine. Really quickly I love the little shot of when it's before they get the letter when Gray Smith walks by Paul Avery's desk and there's a bunch of people around him and they're all talking and you immediately

[01:21:47] get this little moment of like oh this guy's a nerd nobody likes him. Yes. I think it's also again a simplified version of this movie. Gray Smith sees the code works on it and cracks it. Right. You cut out. Instead he's just interested

[01:22:01] in it. Yeah. And no one even notices or cares except for Avery and Avery isn't like what do you got? He's just kind of like I'm going to file away that the little nerd over there is kind of plugged into this. At the very

[01:22:13] least so I can mock him about it. Right. And knew that he would not actually reveal his name in this code. Yes. But right of course who solved the code? Some very cute god bless I'm married freaks who love puzzles you know

[01:22:25] Most versions of this movie would go consolidate it. Have him crack the first one. And going back to the Gyllenhaal performance thing have your hero do something heroic. Yes. Have him solve the first puzzle which he doesn't do. No. And instead he's going to circle around

[01:22:41] this movie kind of unnecessarily for half of it. Like a lost dog. Yeah. Which is Fincher's line about him were like unsurprisingly Fincher liked Donnie Darko. Yeah. And was like I'd sort of pegged them for a while and he had the balance of being this sort of like

[01:22:55] wide eyed kid and also playing obsessive really well. Yeah. Which you need both in this part. I guess what I'm seeing this when I'm seeing this movie I love Robert Downey Jr to death and I've seen Kiss Kiss Bang Bang and I'm kind of all in on like

[01:23:07] The Renaissance. He's back. Yeah. Right. Well that's the thing that that that the three of those guys I mean that's the thing it's like it was such that's why it it not hitting feels so weird because it's like They were all about to be huge.

[01:23:19] It was a little bit of like past present future but three guys who all deserved more than they had at that moment. Exactly. Ruffalo was one of those guys where I had as a little Oscar nerd like adored him and

[01:23:29] you can count on me. Adored him. And then watched him being like wind talkers you know in the cut obviously I liked but was a flop. We've talked about this too. He had like health problems

[01:23:39] He was supposed to be in signs. He bowed out of a bunch of big movies. And then sort of felt like wasn't that guy supposed to be the dude. But then he had had Eternal Sunshine and Collateral where you're like oh well he's supporting but

[01:23:49] interesting in those. Then he did just like having rumor has it and you're like he looks like he has guns trained on him at all times. Yes. Poor guy. And so but like still with Ruffalo you were like I I'm not letting go of Ruffalo like

[01:24:01] that's that's someone. But the main two reasons he was cast in this movie I know we're getting a little ahead of his character right. Um one Fincher really liked him in Collateral. And was like he kind of seems more like

[01:24:15] a normal person in that movie than any other character. Well it also he just seems like someone who talked clearly talked to cops and was like cops act this way because he's sort of you know. But he's also not playing it like a movie

[01:24:25] cop. No but he's you know he's got the goatee and like the slicked back hair and yeah yeah but yeah yeah. Look aside right. Right. And he was like I pitched him in the studio was like Ruffalo does not look like a cop sound like

[01:24:37] a cop move like a cop and he's like that's kind of what you want in this part. Right. Which is I think is the genius of the casting. You need to hire an actor to play the guy that other actors are riffing on when they play movie cops.

[01:24:49] That's exactly right. Because that's of course who he was. He has to play the boring version of a normal of a movie star cop. The real world version. Um but the other thing is I assume just because of his closeness with Pitt he said he

[01:25:01] asked Jennifer Aniston who are your favorite actors? And she said Jalen Hall and Ruffalo. And Ruffalo. Right because she's a good girl. Who are the guys you've worked with that you think are really good. I got a bunch of dudes to cast in this movie. And she did

[01:25:11] Rumor Has It with Ruffalo. So Rumor Has It kind of helps him get this. Wow thank you Ryan. How much it's a mailman performance. And like I but my I was so in on I think I've talked about this before Jalen Hall because of seeing him

[01:25:23] on stage in This Is Our Youth in the West End. Oh sure. Which is one of those things where it was with Hayden Christensen and Anna Paquin. Which um Ruffalo was originally in. He was. He sure was. He was the

[01:25:33] the first part. The Jalen Hall. Yeah he was Warren yeah. Um and that was one of those performances where we were all kind of there for Christensen and Paquin and we were like oh yeah and like the October Sky kids in it. Right. And then

[01:25:45] you watch it and you're like Jesus that kid is like so fucking sensitive and interesting and like and then Donnie Darko came out like around then and he was we were definitely like he is gonna be like you know whatever the big star of the next group

[01:25:59] of kids. The moment with the moment where we are in the movie too or I think we're about to get to is sort of the moment where I fall in love with Graysmith which is you know when he's trying to remember the most dangerous

[01:26:09] game you know like yeah yeah yeah. Where he gets sort of stuck on something. Right. And I think just as somebody for me personally that was when I really felt I was like I relate with that. Yes. I absolutely relate with. And he's like ruffling paper. Ruffling papers

[01:26:23] and like just not being able to like and then. He doesn't remember until four scenes later. That's what I love. Yeah and then he runs off I mean we have to talk about Lake Berryessa but like he runs off

[01:26:31] and he comes back like you know it just there is a type of person that will get something into their head and it will just jump around in there and be in there until until it comes out and he nails it. He just absolutely nails how like sad

[01:26:49] that is but also how invigorating it is for the person it's happening to. The other thing I love that I think he nails and nails early on that helps sort of pin him when he's gonna float around the movie for the first hour or so

[01:27:03] is like his hyper literal processing of things. Yes. Where there's like someone makes the quip of like what are you some kind of boy scout and he goes like Eagle Scout. Eagle Scout. That's later in the movie. And he doesn't even treat it as like

[01:27:13] this is an important correction. He's just like oh yeah of course. Right. I mean I was Eagle Scout. Or they're like do you smoke? Yes. One time in high school. An incredible one. He improv'd that. That is such a fucking funny line. One other thing early on

[01:27:27] that I really want to note is that Venture God bless him shows us them taking a picture of the codex. Oh God. Because he's like it's so sexy. Hey man back in the day this is what you had to do. Go take it down

[01:27:39] to the studio and we're gonna line it up and we're gonna put it under the big and we're gonna you know. Cause I almost in the movie I'm like how is everyone even getting a copy of it? You know what I mean? We're now

[01:27:51] whatever we're so used to just like yeah you can take a picture of it. You know iPhone iPad I don't know anymore. Anyway alright so when is the Lake Berryessa? Yeah that's right after. Yeah here we are. And they actually went there to shoot it.

[01:28:07] Yes they did. Another reason this movie cost a lot is Fincher was like we're going to each of the real places. Right. And they were like pick one side of California. Exactly. And he was like north and south are different. They're different. If the cities exist

[01:28:19] we're going to those cities for those departments and those precincts and those kinds. He's like we're gonna shoot in San Francisco and San Francisco is like you're not shooting a Zodiac movie here. Yeah. And he was like well guess I have to recreate it using fabulous digital

[01:28:31] technology then. The studio is like god that's all so expensive. God damn it. My favorite thing about Lake Berryessa which I assume no one's ever been to including me is that it has a gigantic artificial hole in it. Oh wow. To deal

[01:28:45] with like sluicing and it looks like a portal to hell. Wait to deal with what? Like sluicing the water out if it overflows or something. Sluicing? I don't know. What's the word they just use? Sluicing. Sluicing? Yeah Leave me alone. I don't know anything about lakes.

[01:28:59] I'm just learning a new word. It's called a spillway. Yeah so if there's like heavy rains they open the spillway and they get it out I guess. And they sluice. And someone They someone like someone got uh Shut up. Be quiet. Someone got sucked into this

[01:29:17] spillway once. Really? Which is unfortunate but anyway. It truly looks like a portal to hell. Yes. So this sequence at the lake much like the Lovers Lane sequence is scary obviously. Yes. But that's more like you're like yeah he shot them. Hurdy Gurdy Man's playing. Yes. It's like

[01:29:35] there's a. It's night time. Yeah there's something almost like kind of I would venture to say entertaining about that particular sequence. It's a little more what you would imagine from a Finster serial killer. There's the frightening details such as like he randomly walked right back

[01:29:51] and shot them another couple times in the phone call. But like the Lake Variousis sequence is so weird. Yes. And no one would ever make anything look like this except that this is how this happened which only makes it scarier. This is the first scene where I go

[01:30:03] oh I think I'm watching a masterpiece. Right. This is the moment in the theater where I go this just leveled up. When he stabs the guy first. The sound. The sound. Yes. Yes. When she turns over I almost screamed in the theater.

[01:30:17] Like and I've never screamed at a scary movie. Like and I was. Right. I could feel it coming up in my throat of just like I might start screaming. I've never been so terrified. There's something about the dullness of the sound of the knife going in.

[01:30:31] Oh my God. Where you're like well of course right. It just sounds like a butcher working. Yeah. And you're like I've never seen a movie where this isn't accentuated by It doesn't sound like a knife going into a melon or whatever.

[01:30:41] There's no score. There's no like. There's nothing. It's just so pedestrian. You're just hearing like nature sounds and this sort of like And the weird conversation too and because like. That's what's weird too. It's like he has a gun. Why doesn't he just shoot them? He stands

[01:30:55] there weirdly for a while. He's in this get up. I escaped from jail. I'm taking your car. It's motiveless. He doesn't have a connection to these two. Like. He designed a super villain costume for himself. He never used it again.

[01:31:09] No. Shit like that where you're like why'd he do that? That shot. That sort of like western shot of his belt where you see like his like utility belt of all his different things. It's absolutely bizarre and bizarre in only the way that like

[01:31:23] real life could be bizarre. And even just the fact that they see him without the mask. He's coming. He turns back around behind the tree then puts the rest of his costume on. Then comes back out. I mean you're just like this fucking loser.

[01:31:35] Do you know what I mean? Like is about to. Yeah. He's a kind of a loser. Commit this heinous bizarre act of violence against these two unsuspecting people. Yes. The Fincher thing he says about this movie so much is like I wanted to

[01:31:49] make a movie that serial killers couldn't masturbate to. Right. Yes. Yes. Challenge was can you make something that somehow doesn't glamorize them at all? It is. It is really the anti seven. It makes them seem so dorky. It's like you have no plan bro. Like it's

[01:32:05] not like this artful like and we're and I'm making art projects out of my victims and I'm following this like seven deadly sins. It's like the opposite of that. It's like I am randomly yes shooting people for no reason except

[01:32:19] that I want to be famous and part of what's so scary and upsetting is like the clumsiness of God and that he's using such extreme technical precision and like using CGI to augment replicating things in the least cinematic way in the way that makes them feel kind of

[01:32:35] dull and meaningless. That's more upsetting. I think what he taps into in that scene is that in the back of your mind, not when you're watching the movie, but when you're just walking around it in life way way in the back of your mind

[01:32:49] is this is that little fight or flight like somebody somebody could hurt me. You know, I'm just walking to the subway someone could hurt me. There's no stimuli for it. It's just way in the back there and and that whatever whatever that little part of your brain

[01:33:03] is it's so hyper activated watching this movie that I was aware of it for weeks afterwards like weeks for weeks. I was just like someone is going to stab jump out of nowhere and stab me for no reason especially because the victim is talking

[01:33:17] through all these excuses, right? He keeps saying this off like probably six different things which is something you would do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not even saying him trying to get out of it. I'm saying even like she's like, uh, that guy's kind of weird. Oh, that

[01:33:31] place. Yeah. Well, that part first, right? The build up, right? But there's just something frightening about how he then keeps trying to be like I'll give you my money. I could write you a check. I could probably help you out. The guy's just saying nothing. It's shot

[01:33:43] perfectly. You have no like matching coverage like everything is from the victim's POV all the way up to that extreme close up of, you know, was that gun even loaded? And he shows him the oh my God. It's just like absolutely bone chilling

[01:33:59] to this day. The thing about it being I mean when he is being stabbed in the back right? And you cut to the shot of her just kind of watching it so close to his face looking at his reaction while she hears

[01:34:13] this sound. And then when it finally cuts out to the wide shot and she turns over and when you're talking about the fact that the blood is digital. Yeah. And for him, it's like I don't want to deal with resets and costume changes

[01:34:23] and all of that. All of the violence. I still think most digital blood looks fake and somehow this still looks better than anything else. Just 15 years earlier. I don't know how he did it. When she turns over and you're watching new wounds be created

[01:34:37] but also the old wounds are growing and expanding. And you're like this is actually what it looks like. I'm used to seeing squibs in a way that is like I accept this is the language of it. But I feel like for the first time

[01:34:49] I'm watching what would actually happen if you're three inches away from someone being stabbed to death which is the most upsetting shit in the world. You're really kind of in Brian What's his last name? Hartnell? The victim? Brian You're like you're watching his POV

[01:35:07] because he's on that side of her it's almost as if he turned and that shot is what he's seeing and it's just like the ultimate powerlessness. They're fucking hog tied. Oof. Yeah. I mean it's, again, I'm like shaking right now talking about it.

[01:35:23] So then we should be right like I do think it's then the reason this movie works is we're cutting back to newspapers and it is such a relief. You're just so glad. And Avery is such a relief now because Gray Smith's

[01:35:35] a little freak and he's immediately drawing a picture of the Zodiac in his weird bag costume and Avery has the perfect like you know where he's like what is he doing out of Vallejo? Sweet Jesus what are you drawing? And like I love the

[01:35:49] combo of them because Avery is like I am fundamentally I'm a crime reporter like I know how to do this like yes this is going to be the case that defines my career. But he's like you know I know how to write about this

[01:36:01] and then Gray Smith is like the shadow on the horizon of like you don't understand the freakish obsession with this kind of stuff that's dawning like as we enter this like tragic American age right it's the 60s end and fucking you know the nasty 70s

[01:36:17] arrive and all that and Gray Smith is like I'm just compelled by this. Right? Yes. I mean like that's why this movie is so fucking influential to this day because I don't know if you've heard about this but a lot of people are really

[01:36:29] interested in true crime to this day in this kind of obsessive way. It is the part of the movie where you're like social network you can give them credit for like you can kind of see where things are going and that movie seemed to predict

[01:36:41] a lot of things correctly or have a good clear vision of where we were heading but like no one making this film could have anticipated that like Reddit would become basically a million Robert Gray Smith's interfacing with each other and all being like I'm

[01:36:57] the one person who can solve this despite not having the qualifications. So right after all that, Birds Eye View shot of a cab going through San Francisco turning cameras like fixed on the cab and then we see the cab murder like that's 25

[01:37:11] minutes into the movie we're done with Zodiac killings. Yeah. There's one more sequence with Irony Sky you know which is not a murder. The Kathleen Johns. Yeah. But that's it. Yes. Then we have two plus hours of movie left. Right. And

[01:37:23] this is it's only after this sequence that you finally introduce. Meet the cops. Yeah. There's a San Francisco crime that went down. Yeah. But that car shot is another one where you're like why did that just unnerve me so much? Why does it look like Grand Theft Auto

[01:37:37] 1? And he's just like it is it is a shot that is technically impossible. Yes. Right to have this Birds Eye View that like hairpin turns perfectly. The way the camera turns. It's again it's like that Dolly shot at the beginning. Like it's like this can't

[01:37:51] exist. But it's also not like stupid Zemeckis mocap impossible flying camera shit. No no. It's like he's treating it like there is a real camera there but then training it to do a thing that it wouldn't actually do. Yeah we talk about this in Star

[01:38:07] like and working working on Star Wars that that like when you go into space and you're you're shooting this the ships it's like there's definitely this feeling of like when the VFX people turn it in that they want to kind

[01:38:19] of give you a sense that there's a cameraman. Yeah. And I'm like no there's no cameraman in space. You know like the camera the camera should be almost documentary style like it just it only can pan and move right in this way that that George wanted to

[01:38:37] do his like cycling documentary or whatever it was you know like there's no there's no shaky like oh I didn't realize that was coming. Right. You know like the mistakes or the faked mistakes or any of those things and I think like Fincher is

[01:38:49] always doing that. It's not the camera can go anywhere I mean it can but and it can defy certain rules but only the rules that would that would tell the story in the best way. Well it's like a visual omniscient narrator.

[01:39:05] Yes. Yeah yeah yeah. Where it's like it knows the exact move to make at the exact right time. Yeah it's like oh the cab's moving. Boom. Yeah. Just to be clear yes Star Wars doesn't have that but does have a Toski station. It's named after Dave Toski.

[01:39:17] Of course. And Luke wants to go there to pick up some power converters. Yeah. He never gets them. He never gets them. But soon of course Disney Plus will have a new show in which Luke got the power converters. Yes. Right. It'll be 10 episodes of him going back

[01:39:29] to get them. Yes. That would be good. Absolutely. Fill in some gaps please. No that's like I want like the work place sort of like auto parts sitcom Toski? Yeah. The introduction of Mark Ruffalo as Dave Toski I do love the line about where he's like

[01:39:45] you owe me a new lamp. I'm gonna like describe this lamp to you. June Dye and Rayfield her first film appearance. I always forget she's in this. Yeah. As his wife. I didn't know it was her first film. Yeah. Yeah. I mean I get why he

[01:39:59] cast her though because June Dye and Rayfield does look like someone from a different time. She looks like a 60s gal in a way. You know like you just give her a hairstyle. I love that they never say her name. Yeah. Carol. Carol Toski. I got it.

[01:40:15] And then I mean we haven't mentioned him yet. Anthony Edwards. Jesus among us the greatest man who ever lived Dr. Green. I don't remember what profile it was. I guess it must have been some piece when he was making this movie but I just remember

[01:40:29] reading a description of Fincher behind the monitor watching Anthony Edwards work and like going like that's an actor. Yeah. Yelling to the crew he's like look at that every fucking take is different. He seems so Fincherian or whatever that is. Fincher just seemed

[01:40:43] happier with him than like any other actor he's ever worked with. He's so good. He's so good in this movie. So good. Because he never wants to steal a scene right? Like you know because he truly feels consummate you know the guy

[01:40:55] that he's playing. But also he's like this movie can only exist because of how thorough this guy's notes were right? So he's like this guy's the secret hero of the movie. That's exactly right. And the tragedy of the film

[01:41:07] the thing that makes the film so kind of bleak is that halfway through he's like I shouldn't be in this movie anymore. I can't do this anymore. This is going in a bad direction. You immediately understand they're in the car together Toski's obviously this like interesting

[01:41:19] odd guy and there's fucking you know what's his name Armstrong and you know Toski's like do you have any crackers? You know handing him the crackers like they're this unit. Reclosable snack sack. The way this scene looks like the low light like this

[01:41:35] is where the digital is like a triumph and absolute triumph. Yeah right? Like the fact that there's so much clarity but it's like the middle of the fucking night. And this is the sequence that's like entirely built in CGI and it doesn't seem like there are floodlights

[01:41:47] everywhere or whatever you would have to do normally. And Fincher so rarely does handheld. Exactly I was gonna say. You almost feel like he's doing it to ground the sequence around the fact that he's building a fake environment. Yes I think that's actually

[01:42:01] so right on because he doesn't do like you said he doesn't do handheld unless it's you know deeply called for and I think it is because he's trying not to mask the digitalness of it but it's almost like a flex cause then you have to go shoot like

[01:42:17] the plates for all of that. You know what I mean? So I don't know it just seems wild to me that the scene should not look as good as it does. No. And it's absolutely stunning. It's perfect. As you said they're dynamic of just like this very

[01:42:31] casual like working at the like well then why does he go to the front? You know like where you're sort of like. I'm an idiot. Right but you're not an idiot. I love that. You're cheating. Where you're like. It's too easy to think

[01:42:41] this guy's an idiot. This feels punchy. Yes. In a way but you're like I guess this is sort of the building blocks of them just trying to figure out basic motivations. Right. This thing I don't understand how this movie depicts this well.

[01:42:53] It's so good. But I'm like you are showing us the real versions of the people who usually get turned into movie characters. That's right. And I feel like I'm watching like well this is the documentary on who the guy who the movie character was based on and yet

[01:43:07] I'm still watching movie stars play out scripted scenes. Right. I mean obviously this is why The Wire had felt so revolutionary which is around the same time. Things like that where it's like yeah this is like boring and methodical and haunchy in a way that feels

[01:43:21] like we expect more of a Sherlock Holmes like the handle you know it's clearly this killer was five foot ten or whatever. Anyone else turns their banter of talking through the crime into like a superpower. That's exactly right. Yes and instead what you get is just competency.

[01:43:37] And process. You know and process and just like okay these guys are competent they're going through the process this is not the first shot cabbie that they've dealt with before. Yeah. And we with the dramatic irony of knowing who's done this.

[01:43:51] You know what I mean like we're the ones that are like oh man they have no idea what they're about to step in. The next scene is the letter. Yeah. It's like them at the newspaper. You know we just went from you know routine

[01:44:03] cabbie shooting to mass murderer targets kids like it's almost this beautiful little dance that you get to watch with them and see who they were before they get destroyed. Yes. The other thing with this movie is like one of the scariest clouds

[01:44:17] hanging over it is just time. Right? That we know the movie we bought a ticket to. Yeah. And we're like this stretches on forever I don't know how they're going to end this movie but I know in real life we never got clear answers

[01:44:27] and so when like minute four of the movie we're jumping like four days later two weeks later you're like this film is going fast. That's the other thing I love about the little chyrons is that it's like is that they denote time

[01:44:41] not as like I mean sometimes it'll be like 1977 or whatever you know what I mean like but they'll be like this much time later. Little increments. Like here's the next increment of time that has gone by. Because the movie is being methodical but it's also like time is

[01:44:55] getting skipped over. Yeah. And you have to sort of fill in the blanks every time there's one of those and go like so then for two weeks nothing happened. Right. Two weeks they all went about their day. But you're like ah they're losing

[01:45:07] it. Like you know like whatever immediacy there is to this like it's going to leave them. Right. Like the longer it takes. And like they're immediately distracted by like oh he says he's going to shoot kids in school buses. Right. Now we have to deal with that.

[01:45:19] Like then later he's going to make a bomb. Now we have to figure out if that's real like if he can do that. There were two things that hit very differently for me watching this movie again for the first time maybe a couple years. I don't

[01:45:31] know if I've watched it since 2020. Like one is obviously just the rise of true crime and amateur online murder solvers. Right. And these people who show up unannounced at victims families doors and want to grill them about. A particular obsession with serial killers. Yeah. Correct. Really like.

[01:45:49] Right. But this sort of like citizen crime stopper shit. And then the other part of it is like the pandemic and just being like living in a world with like several years of this invisible threat hanging over us and it's sort of like waxes

[01:46:03] and wanes. Right. And this feeling of being like cases are down maybe we're getting out of this. And you're like surge new variant whatever this feeling of like anytime they cut ahead whatever amount of time you're like OK that was a period of time where there

[01:46:17] wasn't another killing or there wasn't a new discovery. There wasn't a letter. Right. Yeah. And even still it's like things are a little calmer but also it's not resolved. People are still wondering at any moment am I going to get the bad news. And in this

[01:46:31] day and age you're not getting it on your phone you're waking up the next morning in the newspaper and finding out something horrible happened last night. But what I like to think about rewatching this movie is that half an hour into the movie all the murders

[01:46:43] have been depicted and basically all the letters have come in apart from the later crackpot ones now that the earlier ones weren't crackpot. And you're like oh 99% of the evidence is now available to us. And there the rest of this movie is then going back

[01:46:57] to it. And none of it fits together. Over and over again. Like so much of what Graysmith did was just open up the fucking files from like 1966 again. Yes. You know now it's when like if Anthony Edwards you know Farmstrong and Toski are on it. Okay call

[01:47:11] you know Elias Kodeas you know over in Vallejo. Call Donald Luke in where's Napa right he's in Napa. He's in Napa. He's Berryessa. And they're all like by the way why the fuck haven't you sent us this? And they're we're sorry we're sorry

[01:47:23] you know it's so much of that. We really should have been in on the handwriting. Right. You know yeah you have Philip Baker Hall who's phenomenal. The opening credits of this movie when you go. I know it's it's pornographic like I said. It's pornographic. It is

[01:47:35] and it's like the Vince McMahon. Just you wait this guy. Him too. Are you kidding me? Because you have it's the staggered like towering Inferno Dylan Hall Ruffalo. We haven't even gotten to Brian Cox. I know. We'll get to him. Edward Cox is a split card

[01:47:49] and you're like that's good. Nice nice And then it gives you a series of three cards that are Vince McMahon meme. Yeah right. Like I'm forgetting what the permutations are but everyone him. I can probably find them for you but

[01:48:01] yeah I Philip Baker Hall I think so well cast because he's doing something that is and I apologize to handwriting analysis but you know pseudoscience. Yeah and he's just Philip Baker Hall so you're like well he has to be right Yes. He's like the case

[01:48:17] here and you're like the fucking case he knows right and like a lot of this like boils down to some people like well the handwriting and it's like well we don't like is that actually definitive and it's like all these things are like opinions right it's that Ruffalo

[01:48:31] line where like no I get the figured out and he's like all circumstantial right I love the Ruffalo line of like in court yes this cannot be enough right yeah but we're right that's different from you know we definitely

[01:48:43] know who did it. So many times in this movie you're like all of this fits together and then you go to Philip Baker Hall and it's the K right and you're back to square one and you either go I discredit this guy or I discredit my conclusion Charles

[01:48:55] Fleischer Zach Grenier Philip Baker Hall that's the first three okay you know Roger Rabbett Zach Grenier who's the best A plus Fincher freak yeah although in this one he's playing a fairly normal guy usually if you bring him into play a freak Elias Kodeis James LeGros

[01:49:11] Donald Logue I mean come on three I mean I love James LeGros I think that guy is the best yeah he barely in John Carroll Lynch Jerma Mulroney Chloe Sevigny you're like whoa they allowed a woman to be in this movie are we sure

[01:49:23] but no another three amazing yeah well you should talk about Chloe but like she just who just has the look that's it oh wow and then casting by Lurie Mayfield but there's a million other right you know fucking Adam Goldberg for one scene or

[01:49:39] Jimmy Simpson for one scene yeah John Ennis like we said Gets Mr. Show yeah as the rival handwriting that's John Ennis yeah the Clay Duvall is really good in that one scene where Gray Smith is basically just like say it say that name and she's like no

[01:49:59] it was Rick yeah well and what's the first thing jumping way ahead what's the first thing she says to him when he walks in you got the look and he goes what look and she just goes and I'm just do your fucking thing do your

[01:50:09] thing I've met with you guys a bunch right uh all right now we don't need to go quite as scene by scene at this point but you know most of the first chunk of the film is you know Ruffalo and Edwards yes at this point Avery

[01:50:23] is you know important but you know the cops kind of take over their side and Jalen Hall still just kind of circling around then we have the whole Brian Cox sequence okay I just want to make sure we're not Melvin Belli yes who was basically like a fame

[01:50:37] he was sort of like a Johnny Cochran of the day right like a famous attorney he he was the one who got um uh what's his name Jack Ruby acquitted who shot Lee Harvey Oswald Jack Ruby died in prison I'm not sure he was the attorney

[01:50:53] yes uh he also was famously in a Star Trek character called Gorgon which they mentioned in Saw Your Track and he's like oh I should probably just be an actor he's so fucking funny important of why the Zodiac would

[01:51:09] want to talk to him he's the kind of celebrity lawyer to the criminal stars and I got to call out the coverage there of him whenever he's talking and he's just looking like essentially straight into the camera the fucking sounds the lambs cam it's so

[01:51:21] good yes oh good take care of yourself Sam like it just I don't know why he chose to do that but the eeriness of feeling personally implicated by the call he does it in the first Arthur Lee Allen interrogation scene as

[01:51:37] well yes he does which is from being like outside the conversation over the shoulder to being like directly inside it like John you are the other side of this yeah and it does feel like it is when people know they are somewhat cornered or at least directly engaged

[01:51:53] yeah you know you're sort of like in the crosshairs you know what it might be is that even though it's a misdirect it's like when you're talking to Zodiac yeah then you get to look right into the camera yeah don't I mean like it's like

[01:52:05] so so whether it sounds like you're in a great deal of pain yeah yeah that was my headache you know that he wanted Gary Oldman to do this I mean he wanted Gary Oldman to do everything he always

[01:52:15] asked Gary Oldman but he put him in a bunch of prosthetics and was like this looks silly we should just hire Brian Cox and Gary Oldman is like I'll never wear prosthetics again certainly never to play a world leader never to plump up and Cox looks perfect

[01:52:31] you know the big mane of hair the thick tie the tie as thick as his neck the tie knot oh it's so good and that sequence I think is so crucial one because Cox is such a hilarious showman yes this is the only

[01:52:43] character who thinks he's in a movie who's like I'm acting out this scene for the ultimate film made about this event watching total bullshit like useless some crazy guy called in and was like I'm crazy you know like and everyone was hanging on every word because it's

[01:52:57] such good television and it's such good movie watching like in the same way that the letters are good news like it just it the whole thing becomes this like red herring of a of a nonsense the whole thing with the fucking

[01:53:09] you know codex what do you call them the puzzle letters you know yeah is it's like the great mystery of like there's two unsolved and then one of them gets solved and it's like more nonsense yeah more just like I hope you saw me on

[01:53:21] the TV you know I'm going to shoot some little kid you know it's just more like crap well so it's not him being like by the way 395 Main Street like look me up Grace both Alan I got the name from the watch all right see

[01:53:33] you later you know confirmed venturing Grace Smith I think both personally lean towards our early Alan right it is apparent obviously yes the most obvious candidate right and I think Fincher is very convinced by Toski being like that's the one guy where

[01:53:47] I was like the minute he walked in I was like I like this guy for it like but even that that language is what's so fascinating there's the later part where Jalen Hall finally gets through to Donald Logue Mark Arthur right Rick Marshall yeah Marshall sorry and

[01:54:01] he's like you just named my favorite potentially you're talking about my favorite suspect right where it's like Toski's like I'm a born to run guy and you know Nebraska guy myself I thought of not to like throw out like a Simsian metaphor

[01:54:15] I was like they're talking about it like it's starter Pokemon right yeah yeah I have to start with Bulbasaur yeah definitely which right and there's this weird degree to which like in the second half of this movie where Jalen Hall is basically

[01:54:27] going back to all these guys that he's been kept from yeah and going like I'm now the guy who's really into Zodiac and all of them are like I dated her I don't want to go back I did six years on that treadmill

[01:54:39] baby I don't want to do it again and then all of them like get caught up in the thing again yeah where it's like there's this weird like sport to it for them yeah of like it's fun to have your guy and think you can make it fit

[01:54:51] it's like I can't allow to get you to help I said you know I especially can't tell you to go talk to Ken Narlow NARLOW N A R L O W you know like it's just like you can see three ways to

[01:55:01] go about it get a warrant which you won't yeah or get creative right I mean they're encouraging him in this way that betrays their own obsession with the case but the thing I was going to say is that it would be very

[01:55:15] easy for Fincher to put his thumb on the scales and say well the movie we're making is the movie that argues that Arthur Lee Allen links everything together the best yeah so I'll just have John Carroll Lynch play all embodiments of the Zodiac which he doesn't no like

[01:55:31] sometimes it is his body in those scenes and sometimes it is his voice but he has multiple guys doing it at different times I think also I really appreciate how many red herrings he has in the second half of the movie the Rick Marshalls the Sherry Jo

[01:55:47] Bates the fact that you go on the again these are like the nooks and crannies like going into all these scenes where they're like we just don't think this is him and it was like well then why did you tell Paul Avery like

[01:55:57] what you know and you start to realize that like it could be our Arthur Lee Allen and in a regular Hollywood movie that's what would that's what it would be about you know it'd be about one guy and you would be able to feel

[01:56:09] okay with it being that guy but I think it's so important that the movie spends so much time on the red herrings on the people that it probably isn't we never see Rick Marshall we never never see him we never don't know I kept

[01:56:21] trying to find you google Rick Marshall he looks like the Zodiac really I'll say really yeah part of what's frustrating is you're like it's you almost wonder are these not red herrings like part of what's so frustrating about this reality is like

[01:56:35] it's that scene the Paul Avery scene where he's like you almost seem disappointed where he breaks down to him he's like what do we actually verifiably know that this one guy did yeah and already they've lost control the narrative and you're like we basically created a template where

[01:56:49] any crazy person can stand up and do something yeah so are all these killings connected or all the letters connected you know like Arthur Lee Allen might be the Zodiac killer but also 30% of what we ascribe to the Zodiac killer might have

[01:57:03] been copycat right that's just why the whole team falls a ball of yarn that you can't write we have to talk about the bar scene maybe the greatest line reading in the history of Robert Downey Jr. this can no longer be ignored which I love that he's

[01:57:17] not immediately like but he's like okay you so he sent this you think he sent the second code because he found the first one too easy this can no longer be ignored and then maybe the best cut in the history of movies is him trying it

[01:57:29] and then cut to six of them demolished shot through the other side of an aqua velvet half vodka gin basically like Sprite like a lemon lime and blue curacao right which I've never liked I don't like the taste of blue curacao I mean yeah

[01:57:45] it's not kind of nasty it's kind of nasty and surprising here at some real Griffith not at all my color is also just unpleasant well it's electric blue like it's not a natural color I know it's like an orange sort of look natural color has that brightness

[01:58:03] to it yeah sure are you aqua velvet drinker yourself I don't drink fair enough well I can make get you a virgin aqua velvet yeah I would absolutely have a virgin water with food coloring and you know an orange peel and Sprite Sprite yeah sugar

[01:58:19] with sugar and sugar and water yeah that sounds good hang back in this movie but in that bar scene you do have them explaining like how to crack the code right where it's like we're looking for kill yeah you're looking for the double L's and Avery again

[01:58:35] I feel like this is a sequence where Avery is like I'm smart he's not saying this but he's like I'm smart and I'm an investigative reporter I know how to do this I don't have the kind of sick brain that looks

[01:58:43] at one of those squares of codes and is like where's kill yeah and Jillian Hall is like well it's a serial killer so let's find where kill is it's another perfect Downey Jr. line delivery of how does one do that and that is said with such disdain

[01:58:59] clearly Downey Jr. just wants to go to parties where you know everyone gets naked at the end of the night right like on a houseboat like that's really what he wants to do yes he doesn't want to solve the Zodiac murders right then

[01:59:13] what do we have we have well then it's Ioni Skye then it's um Kathleen Johns yeah maybe this I mean I think I don't know what you guys think I think the scariest sequence in Zodiac is probably the basement sequence with Fleischer I remember in the

[01:59:27] theater feeling the most afraid then yes but this is so like sharply frightening you know the way it's drawn out and then the final thing of like I'm going to throw your baby out of the car like but this is one where I swear that's John Carroll Lynch's

[01:59:43] voice right like this is a scene where it feels like that is him yeah always him well he had different people play Zodiac in different times even sin is him at some point right John Lacey you know he would cast people to match the physical

[01:59:57] description from every that yes which is cool it's great it's cool but yeah the Kathleen Johns thing is so scary and it feels like a ghost story or being told in a sleepover absolutely yeah no it has that feeling of like you know or

[02:00:15] my favorite murder right like you know episode or something it just it's just absolutely opening to a slasher movie you know right I survived you know like it just absolutely terrifying and that feeling of her standing on the side of the road as the other cars come up

[02:00:29] like that cut is terrifying right oh it's so bad I'm going to throw your baby out the moving yeah yeah right vehicle and then it's like okay you feel the relief of you see a car pulling up she's alive she's alive she survives alive

[02:00:41] we don't know how but her hands are covered in blood yeah where's the baby where's the baby and you're so terrified you're going to hear something awful happen to the baby yeah and there's something more upsetting although there is a relief obviously there is yeah

[02:00:53] of there being like you hid the baby on the side of the road right like I thought he was going to come back and then you get to Avery taking Grace to the basement and being like my theory is that might not have been Zodiac

[02:01:07] yeah and my theory is this one wasn't either because he only wrote the letters that we got after the crime you almost look disappointed which is already all these guys are starting to have an unhealthy relationship you guys know this I forget the

[02:01:19] trivia here the guy the coffee guy at the Chronicle with the glasses who is that that obviously was a real guy right who's the actor yeah is that like the real guy or something I just love that he keeps popping up and he

[02:01:29] has oh I don't know the mean lines or whatever he's really cool and then what do we got you know then Avery getting the the bloody the bloody shirt and freaking out and you're kind of like that's about an hour plus

[02:01:43] into the movie and you're like oh he's lost like yeah that's when he gets the gun I want a gun yeah but he's also now getting really into being like one of the main characters of this narrative he goes to fuck you know that

[02:01:55] that's where Grace Smith goes on the first date with Chloe Seveny and is like yeah he's going to Riverside or something I forget what that is and she's like it's like near LA and he's like oh I don't think he knows he's that far away

[02:02:11] and she's like uh huh and he's like I guess I should call him and like there's no cell phones through line reading of like is this some skeezy ploy to get me back to your house I love that and he's clearly like huh like like

[02:02:23] it's like his answer is truly so guileless you're like this man has somehow had children but he's never fucked I don't know like he reproduced sexually or whatever you know someone was just like just sit there and we're gonna kiss and don't worry it'll all work

[02:02:35] itself out he was like oh okay like cause it's almost crazy that he has a kid yes and the others do they have does Toski have children yeah we don't see them yeah right we don't see them but he's like

[02:02:47] I know he's like I know boss I've got three daughters of my own right he does that's right at some point like go on vacation right spend time with kids yeah go to Candlestick see a movie yeah I mean you should fucking go to Candlestick there's

[02:03:01] a moment where they all get on the plane like everyone from every city right you know Zach Greiner's there who's the justice guy and they go to Riverside who's that guy who plays the old cop he is incredible I love that I mean he's one of those guys

[02:03:17] he's just one of those guys but he's incredible who's basically like John Mayen is that guy okay and he's I think he's also in LA Confidential yes yeah he's in that and he's like the commissioner in that he's like gentlemen and he's like yeah yeah yeah Zodiac Zodiac

[02:03:35] Zodiac but like I actually like this other guy for it and isn't that how they get Arthur Lee Allen right like he's the one who leads them to Arthur Lee Allen no Arthur Lee Allen they get on him because Armstrong interviews the old roommate of

[02:03:51] the guy with the glasses yeah the guy with the glasses right right right the roommate of Arthur's brother I would say something like that something like that and he goes fishing with him and he's like I'm gonna call myself Zodiac

[02:04:03] and I'm gonna you know I'm gonna do all these things on January 1st because it's that thing it's that sequence where they're like now we're opening up the floodgates to all the nuts and you have that sequence of all these people they're interviewing

[02:04:13] the lady who's like could be Paul Avery right and he's like okay yeah we're looking into that one my ex-boyfriend used to cut people's hands off he has to be the Zodiac and they said he didn't cut anyone's hands off but then

[02:04:23] there's like the four months later seven months later and then the last interview is him throwing out the thing about the fishing and telling the story and they're like this is the first thing we've heard in months that sounds like it might be something

[02:04:35] he leads them to that but it's the open call basically that gets them to Arthur audience member you're like you're still especially the first time you're still in this mode of like yes we're gathering evidence I'll remember all of this yeah

[02:04:47] and later you realize you know we're being shown dead end after dead end for a reason because that is what this became but yes then the Arthur Lee Allen scene is so well acted one because John Carol Lynch is like fucking Oscar worthy

[02:04:59] in this movie oh my god he's incredible and two the way that Ruffalo Edwards and Kodias play the sort of like holy shit this guy's basically admitting to being a Zodiac killer right yeah where he's like no I would never kill kids anyway this is my Zodiac

[02:05:13] and the way he like crosses his leg and we see the boot you know we see the shoes and then you see him see the boot and then you see him see that he saw the boot right it's like and his weird like gentleness

[02:05:27] like the weird way he talks and Fincher said in the commentary that he asked him to do it one way where you just are totally innocent yeah right you can't believe they're even asking you this too morbid like you know that kind of thing exactly and Fincher said

[02:05:43] he was like the more innocent he played it the more he looked guilty right the more he looked like he absolutely was the Zodiac killer yeah my only question I ask this because I know you have landed on an answer for this David

[02:05:55] okay do you put Ruffalo in lead or supporting do you have this movie with two supporting nominations I have the three boys are the three leads I think you have to do it that way you have Gyllenhaal Ruffalo Downey all have to just be considered

[02:06:07] leads okay because the supporting cast is so massive in this movie so then you give John Carroll Lynch the supporting I do but I'm willing to hear basically any argument for any performance in this movie I think they're all good he and Ruffalo are the two I like

[02:06:21] jam on all day and all night I mean Ruffalo is an incredibly rewarding actor like returning to a Ruffalo performance is usually really rewarding yeah like he there's a lot of depth to his work and that's why I watch Avengers Age of Ultron all the time

[02:06:37] I hit some it was obvious I had to make a joke like that we have to move into the final act of the movie which is the Gyllenhaal act and just shout out any scenes from that that we like basically the Fleischer scene yes but like

[02:06:53] and the diner scene in the Fleischer scene the I walked it scene and the Fleischer scene are the sort of crucial and the Paul the Avery boat scene yeah as the toga for Avery as we said he's haunting the movie at that point

[02:07:05] he's haunting the movie at that point he's very the dude he is seen as well is he naked do you think he's kind of like falls out and we're not seeing that absolutely yes that one quick cutaway to him watching the news at the bar yes with the

[02:07:21] emphysema tank still smoking yes and we're so good library line or whatever is there right yes yes yes I think that the Gyllenhaal part what I love about it is that he goes down the Rick Marshall rabbit hole like I just love and that it is the culmination

[02:07:37] is the Charles Fleischer scene like like the culmination of that is that I'm in a dark cellar but like what I know where nothing might be no venture is using Hitchcock to do a scene that is entirely this might just be a weird guy

[02:07:53] this guy's paranoia has become so out of control that he thinks he's in a horror movie definitely a weird guy film projectionist and he saved all his records fucking 30 years ago like when Gyllenhaal is like doors locked you know like you're like oh my god

[02:08:07] and like Fleischer's reaction is kind of like you know that's okay I got it yeah and you're like is he enjoying that he made him feel bad or is he just kind of realizing that this guy is freaking out because he thinks about this any man wearing a

[02:08:19] toupee that obvious is a fucking freak yes but yes we need to start wrapping up Griffin so is there anything else we have to talk about with the Zodiac movie well Cleo Duvall brings him back to Arthur Lee Allen after basically spending years in like cul-de-sacs right

[02:08:35] because she's the one who's like the name Lee is who I remember of this weirdo at this party begging her to connect his previous right theories but I close to me has that like heartbreaking final line as the birthday the same

[02:08:47] birth that's the other Lee Allen thing right oh yeah it was my birthday right to Brian Cox's house right which is sort of like the first totally proprietary piece of information that Gray Smith gets yeah when he is starting to realize someone needs to write this book

[02:09:01] yeah it might as well be me that's the thing that that sets him off is that he almost gets there like um Belli's maid gives him the information about I have to kill today today is my birthday yeah he gets that information he goes to

[02:09:17] Zack Greiner and he goes I just need to check a date and he's the one that goes it's it's fingerprints and handwriting yeah stick to the evidence right you know and then the next thing you know what do you actually have he's in all those cul-de-sacs like yeah

[02:09:31] he can't he because he can't prove it right he's so close to Arthur Lee Allen right there but he doesn't go down it because he's like oh I can't prove it and all these other guys are like I gave it up

[02:09:41] it doesn't fit together this way lies madness and then he comes knocking on that door they say please don't and then once he gives them the one new piece of info they're like I will tell you a thing I've always found it

[02:09:53] that was in the that was in the Vallejo files you know like you can see in Ruffalo's face just that like frustration it's like god damn it it's like the flicker of like no I can't I can't I can't do this anymore and the scene they first meet

[02:10:05] is after the Dirty Harry premiere right Ruffalo walking out and then Grace Smith finally tracking him down and being like we're the two characters who are supposed to have been working together this whole movie and Ruffalo's line is it's over they're already making movies about it

[02:10:21] which is so good and then you have like the longest time cut I feel at that point that's when there's the montage that also was cut out of the original movie where it's just a black screen for two minutes while music plays which is great

[02:10:33] it's amazing it's so good and it feels like Fincher's like I'm telling you the time is moving but it's also like the 60s have died yeah that's how I feel about that musical montage that's very very spot on he's like we're moving out of this

[02:10:45] and like this is a time of innocence dying in America as well like that's the whole story and it feels jarring how quickly you're moving even with like the audio clips from news broadcasts but you're like that's what happened the production design of the

[02:10:55] of the chronicle changes you know the typewriter changes yeah the typewriter changes the kind of typewriter they use because he realized by the 70s mid 70s they were using a different kind of scholectric or whatever what about Seven Year um the scene where she basically

[02:11:11] calls quits on their marriage and you like haven't been checking in on them a ton and you're sort of like this is such a disastrous first date but she's kind of charmed by his guilelessness and he's like a cutie pie and you assume

[02:11:23] at some point it got better and she like engaged with him as a real person and then her scene where she's just like we've just our first date never ended yeah this has just been one long first date of me basically

[02:11:35] waiting for you to like solve the Zodiac crimes right and like engage with me as a human being and it's never gonna happen someone the Zodiac calls in the middle of the night and just breeze into the phone and you're just accepted this because

[02:11:47] you're so obsessed like that's not gonna dissuade you from stopping right whereas when he's a single father he's got his kid in the couch and they're watching the Brian Cox interview and he's like change the channel this is like too upsetting

[02:11:59] for you he sticks with it for a bit and then when it gets really gnarly he's like okay okay he's still a little bit of a mother versus now they're like at the dinner table and he's like Zodiac calling again like he's not even really processing

[02:12:11] how much this is interfering with his children's psyche he looks like you say trapped in the movie as well he just looks like he's asleep I've just got to see him I gotta look him in his eyes

[02:12:19] and then he does that I've got to know that it's him yeah it's so true Gyllenhaal's performance gets into this space where it's like those eyes man those Donnie Duggar eyes my god he's really good and he's really good it's so cool

[02:12:31] I just think that the climax of the movie is he looks Arthur Lee Allen in the eyes and does he get something out of that we don't really know it's crucial for us and then Jimmy Simpson's like this guy and then the movie's like

[02:12:43] Arthur Lee Allen died before they could really figure anything out the DNA never matched and you're trapped in hell forever goodbye roll the credits yes no no yes kind of maybe goodbye laughter they keep pulling you in both directions I have to say though

[02:12:59] I think you gotta hand it to him that when he plays hurdy gurdy man again you know what I mean he is giving you an emotional catharsis and I think I don't know if I was saying this before when we were actually taping or not but

[02:13:13] it's like if it makes emotional sense then the logic starts to fall away you can say that this movie doesn't have a resolution or any of those kinds of things and it doesn't but it has one shining moment at the end where Majeux identifies Arthur Lee Allen

[02:13:31] yes the most definitive thing that could happen happens and that music plays and it just says like the answer could still be out there it's like it could still happen and then like you said it also like the first time hurdy gurdy man is

[02:13:51] played you're like oh that's like a good usage of this song clever yeah that's like carrying some power over to this scene and then when he uses it the second time I'm like you have forever transformed this song I will never now

[02:14:03] not listen to this song and think about like the frustration of being like we're never gonna fucking catch Arthur Lee Allen we didn't even talk about David Shire's music David Shire one of the great composers of all time did one of my favorite film scores for the

[02:14:17] Taken Film 1, 2, 3 he would do these jazz scores he wanted no score he was like only pop music just set it in that time and they were cutting it and they were like a couple of these sequences you kind of need mood setting

[02:14:29] and they used the conversation score as temp score another great David Shire score and then they went to him and he wrote 40 minutes of stuff hell yeah which is incredible because he was probably in his 70s at that point he's still alive David Shire

[02:14:41] with us 86 years old now the fact that there is so much pop music used so well and recontextualized in a way that makes it feel so ominous oh yeah that when he switches to the score you're like this is telling me to pay attention in a different

[02:14:57] way yeah there's some shift here of what's happening in this scene and sometimes it's emotional sometimes it's tension sometimes it's just underlining information sometimes it's scoring squirrels I rewatch that scene so good it's just freaky yeah but I rewatch I like rewound and rewatch the

[02:15:19] John Carroll Lynch reaction to John Hall clocking him in the hardware store yeah sure and I swear to god you go by it frame by frame and it's like it actually doesn't look like his face is moving at all yeah somehow his expression changes entirely

[02:15:33] and you cannot clock like where muscles are shifting yeah and it's just inscrutable and it's like for this guy in that moment on one hand I associate with being like a Cuddle Bear actor from Fargo and stuff like that yeah true

[02:15:47] Carrey show yes but you're like if you're a graysmith and that's another moment where he basically cuts to he's looking straight at you through the lens yeah you're like well at first you're like well that face he's giving me is the resolution

[02:15:59] I want yeah even if I can't prove it he's acknowledging it and then the longer you look at him you're like am I projecting something onto him yeah right you're going to the cycle 100% right yeah like actually is this all coming from me blah blah blah Griffin

[02:16:13] let's just play the box office game come on let's just do it March 2nd 2007 movies body by wild hogs at the box office it's just fucking ran the table March 2000 wild hogs I do not remember wild hog Tim Allen William H. Macy

[02:16:25] Martin Lawrence John Travolta the big four yeah they're on motorcycles we don't need to get it 175 to 40 million dollars it was a huge hit yeah I don't ever remember it annihilated Zodiac Zodiac was humiliated and then fucking Leonidas comes in a week later

[02:16:41] and kicks all of them what does 300 300 300 right a weirdly robust March number 3 at the box office is a movie that would probably never get dumped in February now it's a comic book film one of your favorite actors oh it's Ghost Rider Nicolas Cage's Ghost Rider with Pete Fonda

[02:17:01] that was dumped and still ended up making a lot of money a lot of money better than Zodiac again yeah made well over 100 million dollars pretty bad you think better oh okay then Zodiac yeah fun trash but objectively bad number

[02:17:15] four it's just funny I think this is what's up against Zodiac number four kids book adaptation Richard Terabithia what yeah and Sofia Robb he's a freak I can't believe you guys know this Hutcherson I'm the rapper Gray Smith of box office number five another

[02:17:31] relationship in my life about obsession but a bad one number 12 is another five oh is it number 23 number 23 with Jim James I knew all of those on first guess did I not you sure did God have you seen the number 23 I have not not very good it's funny

[02:17:49] to think of that movie existing in theaters right Zodiac is like let's think about this true crime and Jim Carrey is like I can't stop thinking about that dang number it's so weird how it keeps popping up I'm gonna play the saxophone you also have not sleeping

[02:18:03] Norbit yep the movie that cost Eddie Murphy an Oscar this Oscar season like you know music and lyrics underrated Hugh Jackman rom-com very cute film yeah opening new this week and completely bombing the sort of comedy drama Black Snake Moan oh yeah with Christina Ricci

[02:18:23] that opened the same weekend it sure did that's another blank check movie yeah and Timberlake and Samuel Jackson that's Craig Brewer follow up flow right of course Paramount buys it and guarantees his next movie right and number nine is Reno 911 Miami

[02:18:41] movie is I'm gonna chain a woman to yes got it okay yeah but that was the deal was like we want your movie so badly also like anything you want sucker punch yeah it's just like you know so we're gonna stick needles in the eyes

[02:18:53] of young women whatever the Jesus Christ what do you have to say I love this industry you guys I love it so good reporting we're doing great things find success and reward never been better I think Reno 911 Miami is underrated one of the funniest

[02:19:07] movie titles of all time that it's another city that's funny it is funny it's not like a overbearing annoying joke yeah it's good it's funny and number 10 the completely forgotten but perfectly watchable political thriller Breach which Billy Ray movie good movie low key fucks all

[02:19:25] day and all night it's his follow his father to shattered glass speaking of hate Cooper is unbelievable in that movie what I gave it another spin recently because I hadn't watched it in 15 years what's crazy about that list is that I don't know any of and you were

[02:19:39] like a grown up at this time you were seeing films I black sick moan I remember just because I was like what's happening but I you know like I did watch it you know I I saw it but I was just out of morbid curiosity 100%

[02:19:55] I don't know any of those movies and yet they all beat the deck open to number four or whatever but no open to number two but like just black snake moan ultimately outgrow Zodiac I think maybe not just because black snake moan didn't do well at all sure

[02:20:09] yeah but uh so it opens to 12 yeah how do you know that I mean I know you do this on the show all the time but seeing it in person is pretty cool it opened to 13 it made 33 domestic it made 84 total okay you know basically made its budget

[02:20:27] back worldwide so it was a loser but then I think it did quite well you know on video as well Leslie I get some satisfaction out of the fact that I think people who listen to this show sometimes think that I'm like on my

[02:20:39] devices no I can say he's not and he's like in his minority report they say what you say which is it looks weird watching you I'm like kids movie and you're like bitch of terabithia nobody made a movie of that

[02:20:53] oh my god it's just like coming out of me my god wild hogs I'm just like what America was for a moment captured by the idea of middle aged men riding motorcycles into the heartland and having comic I want to see that movie yes we've told that story

[02:21:09] on the podcast have you guys watched the commentary with James Ellroy for this movie no it's unbelievable is it just Ellroy it would be funny if it was just him being like I love this movie here we go there's the one that's Jyll and Holl

[02:21:23] and a bunch of the crew there's the one that's Fincher solo I've listened to both of those so he's on the one with the crew Jyll and Holl and Downey and he introduces himself as like he's like I'm James Ellroy king of American crime fiction it's

[02:21:41] so good he also says he's hung like a mule yeah about himself James Ellroy who by the way looks like if Mr. Clean joined the nation of Islam but was white it's not like you see James Ellroy and you're like that guy fucks with a bull moose penis

[02:21:59] here is James Ellroy exactly he's always talking he's very obsessed with Ruffalo's hair as well you know he's got great hair but because you think Ellroy's like if only I had that mop on my head I'd have six extra wives

[02:22:13] on my Wikipedia page it's so great to see it's really interesting because of you know obviously everything he's written but also what happened with his mother and hearing his take on the Zodiac and just what an absolute narcissistic loser Zodiac was you know like this is just

[02:22:35] like the banality of evil that's the thing about Zodiac he's a weird nerd he's not even good at this he invented the template for so many things in fucking serial killing but like by being a weird freak and who would mostly write it and be like

[02:22:51] I saw the exorcist hilarious comedy or you know shit like that he's a troll he's a toaster he's a fucking troll he killed five people or maybe 35 probably just five but who knows Leslie thank you for coming thank you for having me this was amazing

[02:23:11] I feel like we honestly could have talked the problem with Zodiac is we could talk about it but we have to cut ourselves off so we don't fall prey into the trap that destroyed these men absolutely we've also been talking for a very healthy amount of time

[02:23:25] exactly two hours and thirty minutes Leslie I said to you and I've said it on mic many times but it's what I want out of Star Wars the promise of your show not just that you were the one doing it but the idea of the newness and

[02:23:37] unexplored territory in a Star Wars hand box and as you guys know before the prequels which I know you guys have covered have covered you unfortunately know we have covered you unfortunately know that we have covered I want you guys to go back and do it again

[02:23:51] you want us to start it over? wow that would really make a lot of people unhappy burn it down but it is, we were saying before it is the ultimate blank check movie the ultimate blank check project especially those three movies no check blanker than that

[02:24:07] no, no, no especially the idea of him releasing them and everyone being like we're horrified by this and he's like I'll get to work on the sequel laughing I just love him so much I'll see you later so Jordan are you listening to the fans complaints?

[02:24:23] a little bit maybe the weirdest amount I could listen yeah right I wish we had more time to talk about George Lucas well come on back sometime I would love to come back and do that we'll think of something else for you to come on

[02:24:39] and talk about but thank you for joining us thank you for having me I love this movie so much you did amazing take us out I have to pee ok I need to poop so it's going to be a race against time

[02:24:51] can I finish this before David finishes peeing thank you all for listening please remember to rate, review, and subscribe thank you to Marie Barty for our social media and helping to produce the show thank you to my partner AJ McKeehan for our editing JJ Birch for our research

[02:25:07] Layne Montgomery and the Great American Owl for our theme song Pat Rounds Joe Bowen for our artwork I have to go to the bathroom so badly you can go to blankcheckpod.com for links to some real nerdy shit

[02:25:19] I don't want to say shit it's a little triggering to me at this moment including our Patreon Blank Check special features where we do commentaries on film series right now we're doing the Pierce Brosnan Bond movies we also just have the tune in next week for

[02:25:31] Curious Case of Benjamin Button with Richard Lawson and as always I did it I fucking, I did it I finished it and David's still in there this is like physically painful ok I'm going to read a thing while David's still in there my former roommate

[02:25:45] Chris Wilmot who grew up in the Bay Area sent this to me and I think this is relevant he said I know you all have probably already recorded your Zodiac app but had to share this review I saw while working at an art supply store that's too weirdly

[02:26:01] specific to not be written by the real Robert Gray Smith I've been drawing in pen and ink since I was a child and for 15 years was a political cartoonist and for the last 30 years a best-selling author of books illustrating them all with gillet pen points

[02:26:15] and ultra draw ink. It is permanent lightfast and if you had to you could draw on glass with it if you could it is so much denser and richer than other inks on the market that the day they stopped making

[02:26:25] ultra draw ink which I use with a dip pen and radiograph pens I will switch to another media. Other inks thin out when you erase your pencil lines this ink is eternal love it Robert Gray Smith author of Zodiac and other non-fiction books. Thank you Robert

[02:26:39] Robert are you ok? No